D'oh! Operation Flagship

Operation Flagship was undertaken at a time when the U. S. Marshals performed their jobs with a lot of flair. What other agency would throw a football party in order to arrest a handful of (mostly) non-violent criminals? See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:02Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:12Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is Stuff You Should Know, the freeze edition.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know what the addition this is? This is the law enforcement sometimes thinks they're so cute and clever edition.

• 1:28Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  Man, I can't wait to point out how many cutesy little names and acronyms pop up in this story.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  And, and this, and a lesson, if you're a criminal and you ever think something might be shady and it might be a sting operation, just look at any name that they've given you and like read it backwards or see if it spells an acronym that says like, we nabbed you buddy or something like that. Like that's, that's how cutesy they got is then you'll see, I'll just throw that out there and we'll talk about them as they pop up.

• 2:02Josh Clark?

  Yep. And there's our daily assistance in helping criminals evade capture by law enforcement.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Was that what I was doing? I certainly was. All right.

• 2:12Josh Clark?

  Moving on. So we're talking about one specific operation, Operation Flagship, which was conducted by the US Marshal Service back in, I think, 1985. And it's just kind of mind boggling. Where'd you hear about this? Did it? Did somebody write in or did you already know about it being an NFL fan?

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah. You know what? I'm not sure. Now that I think of it, this may have been a listener request. And I'm going to look that up real quick because I hate not shouting people out.

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'm with you.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  When that happens.

• 2:46Josh Clark?

  Well, how I keep talking while you look.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:51Josh Clark?

  So the US Marshal Service, they're one of the first American law enforcement agencies. They were founded back in 1789. Dave helped us with this. It's Dave Week, by the way. As Dave put it, in the time of George Washington. So they've been around quite a bit and over the course of this history, like they've done a lot of different, really kind of great stuff. They escorted students into the first segregated schools, black students to segregated schools. They protected them.

• 3:23Josh Clark?

  They enforced prohibition, which I guess depending on your views on prohibition, it was great or not.

• 3:30Josh Clark?

  They operated the US Census, which seems like they were at the time just really looking for busy work for the Marshal Service.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, just give them a bunch of pencils.

• 3:40Josh Clark?

  And then, and turn them loose. And then famously Chuck, anytime you hear somebody call like a Wild West law enforcement guy marshal, this, they were a US Marshal. That was one of the roles they played. They served as the long arm of the law in the Wild West era of American history.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. So they did a lot of things. They found a lot of busy work for them to do over the years. These days, did you mention witness protection?

• 4:09Josh Clark?

  Not yet.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, basically, these days, they take care of witness, the witness, they run the witness security program, AKA witness protection. If you see prisoners being transported, like, to court or something, those are marshals doing that. And they're, since 79, they've been in charge of fugitive investigations, which is to say, basically, anybody with an outstanding warrant is a fugitive. You don't have to have, like, escaped prison. If you're charged with a crime, or have been summoned to testify, or something like that, and you're, you jump bail, you don't appear in court, if you escape from custody, then you're a fugitive. And the US Marshals are gonna try and find you, and either put you back in jail, or put

• 4:55Speaker 02

  you in jail for your very first time.

• 4:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And Tommy Lee Jones doesn't care if you're innocent. His job is to get you and bring you back to jail. No nonsense.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  I didn't kill my wife!

• 5:05Josh Clark?

  I don't care.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  That's just so great, man. One of the great lines in movie history.

• 5:09Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, you can be a fugitive all sorts of ways, and regardless of how it is, the US Marshals are out there to get you. And for the most part, when they get you, it's because they've tracked you down. Maybe they got a tip, maybe they just started looking for you, and they found that you're actually at your last known address.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:32Josh Clark?

  And they arrest people quite frequently. I think I saw that they rounded up, like, 75,000 fugitives in 2023 or 24.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:43Josh Clark?

  They arrest a lot of people. But for some reason, during the early to mid 80s, the US Marshal Service went on what can only be described as a cutesy streak.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. He said, "Hey, guys, let's have a little fun with this."

• 5:57Josh Clark?

  They clearly did. I mean, like, these things, this whole thing was hatched... Hours into an office Christmas party in 1979. That's the only explanation for this.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. We'll start with our first QT acronym. In 1981, they launched a program called the Fugitive Investigative Strike Team, AKA FIST, because they're gonna use their fist to get you.

• 6:24Josh Clark?

  Right up your bum.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  That's right. And their goal was to do fugitive investigations, not just like one person at a time, but like, let's see if we can get a lot of these people at one time, high concentrations of these fugitives, and round them up and bring them in. And how are we gonna do that? We're gonna do that with these really kind of wacky sting operations, which, you know, it's not like they were just out to have fun. There's a lot of merit to doing something this way. They're generally cheaper than just one at a time going after somebody resource-wise. They're safer, because usually when you launch something like this,

• 7:07Speaker 02

  they're gonna be unaware, they're not gonna be, they're not gonna have a weapon on them like they might, you know, behind the door of their own home that they barely crack open. So, you know, it's cheaper, it's generally a little safer. We're gonna talk about a few examples of these before we get to flagship. One very successful one was a program called Mr. Zip. And this is just very lo-fi. They would have marshals dressed up as US mail carriers, and they would just knock on your door and say, "I got a package from Mr. Homer Simpson." And they would produce their ID and sign their name, and they would say, "Thank you, you're under arrest."

• 7:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  It is you.

• 7:46Josh Clark?

  I think that was actually in The Fugitive, too.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, that sounds familiar.

• 7:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, it's been in a lot of different movies, but...

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Like Here Are Your Roses, that kind of thing?

• 7:55Josh Clark?

  Uh-huh, exactly. So I don't know if this is actually the origin of it or not, but it certainly seems to be, because I don't get the impression that they did a lot of this stuff before this era.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, what about Pugno Airlines? That was pretty fun.

• 8:08Josh Clark?

  So Pugno means fist in Spanish.

• 8:13Josh Clark?

  Uh, right.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, it's just, it's also like, it's almost like they wanted people to figure it out.

• 8:18Josh Clark?

  Yes, that is inherently the problem behind this whole thing is a lot of this, I was about to say steps, but I'm just gonna say missteps.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:28Josh Clark?

  That happened to work out in their favor. We're, we're just basically like, hey criminals, do you speak Spanish?

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:36Josh Clark?

  Do you think anybody would ever name their airline Fist Airline? Well, they want to give you a free weekend to the Bahamas.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 8:44Josh Clark?

  That was the Pugno Airlines thing. And I love it. Like, I think it's, it's cool, like in retrospect, but when you stop and actually think of it from a law enforcement perspective, you just, you just end up pinching the bridge of your nose, but it actually worked.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it did. Uh, they mailed these fake letters saying they had won that trip, plus 350 bucks in spending money. Uh, 14 fugitives fell for it. And, you know, they send a limo to your house. It's like a big sweepstakes, basically. And most of them were arrested in the limo, like the limo driver is a cop, uh, and they just pull over and say you're under arrest. Uh, one guy did make it to the airport at Miami International and they did have a fake, uh, Pugno Airlines ticket counter. Uh, so they, they saw it through. I'll give them that much.

• 9:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. Um, I think it was right next to Air Haiti.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:33Josh Clark?

  No, for real.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  Oh, was it? Okay. I never know when you're joking anymore, so.

• 9:37Josh Clark?

  So, I know, I'm sorry. I've really messed with reality. Um, that was 1985. There was another one the year before, Fist 7.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:46Josh Clark?

  Right? But they would spell it with Roman numerals to make it look super cool.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  So funny.

• 9:51Josh Clark?

  Cause I think this is, yeah, this is the era of the Rocky sequels.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, Roman numerals were everywhere.

• 9:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Um, that one was enormous. It was a multi-state, multi-agency sting operation. Um, there were 113 marshals involved, five ATF agents, 105 police officers, all from across eight different states. And, um, it involved a bunch of different scams that really all together were part of this one big sweep that was just coordinated by the marshal service. Um, there was one pretty straightforward in Buffalo. Where they wrote letters to fugitives and said, hey, you don't know this, but you won $10,000 in the lottery. You know that lottery you may or may not have ever played?

• 10:40Josh Clark?

  Well, you won $10,000, but we can't give you the money unless you come to the Lotto office and show us your ID and then you can claim your prize.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  That's right. That was one of them. One was a job scam. It was called the Prior Offenders Employment Opportunity Program, where they would say like, hey, are you a prior offender? Like, I know it's hard for you to get a job. We can get you a job. 15 bucks an hour. Just call our number and tell us who you are and where you are and we'll set you right up.

• 11:08Josh Clark?

  That one actually seems like the most effective one because it almost has like a scam sense to it, like outwardly, like overtly.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  It may be the meanest, too.

• 11:21Josh Clark?

  I think so, too. I thought the same thing.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Because you might think it's mean to say you've won tickets to the Bahamas, but it's really mean for someone to be like, I really want to start my life over and get a regular job.

• 11:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  And they're like, oh.

• 11:34Josh Clark?

  Well, have we got an opportunity for you?

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:37Josh Clark?

  I agree with you. In New York, part of FIS7, their sting was called the Brooklyn Bridge Delivery Service. Not to be confused with New York's finest taxi service, but it's basically the same thing.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:50Josh Clark?

  Their motto was, don't mess with the rest. Come to the best. And it was essentially the same thing as Mr. Zip as far as the scam goes, but they would just leave like, we missed you slips on their door saying, you have a package that you need to come pick up. And there was a guy involved in this.

• 12:11Josh Clark?

  I can't remember his name, but, oh, Robert Leshorn. He was one of the chief or deputy chief marshals. And he's, he, this was his scam. And so part of it was the criminal would call to find out where to pick up their package. And depending on what they were wanted for, he would tailor what was supposedly in the package. So he said, like, if you were wanted for robbery or theft or something. Be like a brand new stereo or something. So he would tailor it, which made sense. And apparently that worked to a certain extent, but all of these, all of them pale in comparison to the one that they ran in Hartford, Connecticut.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I thought you were going on the flagship. I was like, are you not going to mention?

• 12:54Josh Clark?

  No, not a chance. As a matter of fact, we should probably just stop after this one. Cause no scam in the history of law enforcement has ever been greater than this one.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is part of fist seven in Hartford, Connecticut. This was, hey, let's do a fake TV station giveaway where you can win two tickets to a concert plus dinner and a limo ride. And hey, it's 1984. You're going to see Van Halen on their big, huge rock tour? No, no, no. Boy George.

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  And Culture Club.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  You have won tickets to see Culture Club in 1984. And it worked. I don't, I don't know why they chose. I don't know if it was geographical. If Boy George was just like, sure, I'll take part in this. He probably didn't know anything about it. Or if they did some research, did a little re and found out that these dudes love Boy, love Culture Club? I don't know. I have no idea, but that's who it was.

• 13:52Josh Clark?

  I saw that part of the, the, the package that they won was also a photo shoot. I saw that in a couple of places.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  With the Culture Club?

• 14:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And then, and then one of the marshals who held, who headed up the Hartford, Connecticut Boy George scam said it was just like one of the other ones where like, when you went to get picked up by this limo, right? When you got in the limo, they arrested you. He said, all these people that they got with this were all dressed up to go to the Culture Club concert.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 14:25Josh Clark?

  Can you imagine what they looked like when they arrived in jail? Like those feathers that you clipped to your ear?

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:31Josh Clark?

  Like glitter war paint, like on your cheeks, like the whole, the whole shebang.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  I wonder if they said, bad karma chameleon for you, my friend.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  I love all the extras, too. It wasn't just like tickets to a concert. It was always like, and dinner, and a photo shoot. Like, I guess they really thought they needed to make it something someone couldn't refuse, I guess.

• 14:52Josh Clark?

  Right. How can you refuse a photo shoot with Boy George?

• 14:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, we laugh, FISHT 7 netted 3,300 arrests and is the largest fugitive roundup in American history still to this day.

• 15:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, 3,200 of them came from the Boy George scam.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  That feels like we have to take a break right there, right?

• 15:16Josh Clark?

  I think we would be violating some sort of unwritten rule if we didn't right now.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  All right, we're gonna come back and talk about one that netted fewer arrests, but was definitely fun in Operation Flagship, right after this.

• 15:38Speaker 02

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• 16:31Josh Clark?

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• 17:34Josh Clark?

  Okay, Chuck, so we're back and we're finally talking about the titular scam, Operation Flagship.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 17:43Josh Clark?

  How do you like that?

• 17:44Speaker 02

  That's pretty good. I love the word titular.

• 17:47Josh Clark?

  Thank you. It's arousing. I can't think of another word for it, but let's just say arousing.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. This was thought up, it was a brainchild of a guy named Howard Safir. He was head of enforcement operations at the time. This seven was a big, big success. And he's like, what, at the Christmas party? He was a little toasty and said, what has everybody got? He had too much of Grandma's Christmas breath. And he said, what's everyone got? I need some fun ideas. And Robert Leschorn, the guy, the Brooklyn Bridge Delivery Service guy, still basking in the glow of those tailor-made packages to the criminals. He apparently came up with this idea. And it was football tickets. One of the hottest tickets in football at the time in 1985

• 18:33Speaker 02

  was there at RFK Stadium for what was then the Washington Redskins, now the Washington Commanders, since the name change. But they were the Redskins then. They had won the Super Bowl, beat the Dolphins in 83, lost to the Raiders in the Super Bowl in 84. In 85, expectations were high. Season tickets, 25-year waiting list for season tickets. Every game is sold out at RFK. And so, offering up free tickets to criminals in the DC area seemed like a no-brainer.

• 19:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah. This, this particular game versus the Bengals on December 15th, 1985, it was to whoever won was going to win a wild card playoff berth.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:16Josh Clark?

  Which has significance. So it was an important game.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Oh, do you, I feel like. I don't know. You should get a little gold star for your football, uh, knowledge right here.

• 19:27Josh Clark?

  Thank you. Also, not to mention too, I mean, even looking back, you're like, wow, these guys were great. But at the time, these two were at the peak of their careers. It was Theismann versus Asiasen as far as the quarterbacks went.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Theismann.

• 19:42Josh Clark?

  Is it really Theismann?

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. The story goes, it was Joe Theismann and in college, he changed it to Theismann to rhyme with Heisman.

• 19:51Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 19:52Speaker 02

  That's what they say.

• 19:53Josh Clark?

  Huh.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  I'm not, I'm not sure.

• 19:54Josh Clark?

  Did he win the Heisman? I mean, the Heisman?

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Oh, you know, I'm actually not sure if he did or not, but his leg got snapped on national TV. I was watching that game. It was horrific.

• 20:04Josh Clark?

  Wasn't that a Super Bowl?

• 20:06Speaker 02

  No.

• 20:07Josh Clark?

  Oh, it was a.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  No, no, no. It wasn't a Super Bowl.

• 20:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was horrific. I mean, it was a compound fracture that came out of his thigh, right?

• 20:15Speaker 02

  I don't think it was his thigh. I think it was the lower leg, but I just, I remember it was, that was the first horrific injury that I saw on TV that, even though I didn't know it at the time, activated my mirror neurons in a way that was quite striking.

• 20:30Josh Clark?

  One of the ones that got me, there was a Miami Hurricanes player in early 2000s and he was like running down the sideline and somebody dove to, to knock him out of, well, out of.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Bounce.

• 20:44Josh Clark?

  Bounce. And, um, and they got him right in his knee. And his knee turned into like, his whole, his whole leg, but the apex was his knee, just turned into a rubber band that went really far to the left. And.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  It's always so disturbing.

• 21:01Josh Clark?

  It was, they kept showing, like, this was, this was the, the zeitgeist at the time. They showed that injury in slow motion 15 times.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:11Josh Clark?

  While the dude was laying on the field. They didn't cut to anything. They just kept showing it over and over like it was a new volume of Faces of Death or something like that.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, they did that for, up until not too, too long ago. And then they stopped, anytime there's a serious injury like that, they're like, uh, we're not, you know, we don't show the replays of these things anymore, but.

• 21:29Josh Clark?

  We probably shouldn't feed the bloodlust.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 21:32Josh Clark?

  But yeah, so anyway, that was, that was, it's forever burned into my brain, that, that image. And I don't think he broke anything. He just apparently has like the most flexible, resilient leg of anybody's.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  So he was fine?

• 21:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I don't know if he was fine. I don't remember that. I just remember like, I, I don't think he was like, he, anything broke. It just went bloop.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Oh, was that, uh, old rubber knee Richards?

• 21:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah. But ironically, I think he had that nickname before that because he could play the rubber bands on his knee.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  This has gotten so off the rails.

• 22:10Josh Clark?

  Oh yeah, we're talking about, uh, the cops in the.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. All right. So we're back to Robert Leshorn. He's the one that came up with this idea to give away these tickets. He said, uh, here's what we'll do. We'll create a fake, uh, TV station, like a rock music TV station, like a local MTV, basically. Uh, W R O C video. And that's gonna head up this whole thing. Uh, the prize, and this is where they get cued again. The prize letters that they sent out were signed by station manager. I am Detno. Uh, if you'd spell that backwards, it is I am wanted. Get it?

• 22:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  And then the guy who, uh, they said you had to call in or whatever. Um, the, the business manager that took the phone call, his name was Marcus Cran. Uh, C R A N spelled backwards is narc.

• 22:58Josh Clark?

  No.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Yes. And supposedly, and I did not verify this, but there was one source that said the whole music, when you called was I fought the law and the law won by Bobby Fuller.

• 23:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  And I was like, come on. See, like, really?

• 23:14Josh Clark?

  Right. So even if, even taking that one out, it is a hundred percent confirmed that they signed it. I am wanted backwards. I am Detno.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:23Josh Clark?

  The Cran thing, is that pretty much a hundred percent?

• 23:26Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. I mean, it's in the NFL Films documentary. You see the guy typing that name in the computer.

• 23:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So like, this is like, these are the things that they're doing to just make it like a whole tee hee hee thing.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:37Josh Clark?

  To where if you, again, if you step back. No reason, but to amuse themselves. Like, there's no reason, as we'll see, I'm sure part of the reason also is for the media blitz that they knew was coming after they pulled this off.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:50Josh Clark?

  But not only is there really no reason for it, you're actually sacrificing potential captures.

• 23:59Josh Clark?

  Because there's

• 24:00Speaker 02

  You're tempting fate.

• 24:01Josh Clark?

  Some of these people have wives. All you had to do was show your wife that letter. And say, this is wanted backwards, you know?

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Hey, dummy.

• 24:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah. How many of these people were like, fell through the, the dragnet because they saw that Detonaw is wanted backwards. And they're like, I think this is not legitimate.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, they mailed out 3,000 of these letters to fugitives, uh, for a total of, um, 5,117 outstanding warrants between those 3,000. Said, you won this thing, plus a grand prize drawing for Super Bowl tickets that year.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  Uh, the flagship international sports television was the fake station, Fist. So they did it again. Uh, about half the letters came back, returned to sender. The others, again, were told to, to call, uh, Marcus Cran, uh, to confirm their, you know, attendance. And, um, a few of the people that called in were like, wait a minute, this is the cops. Um, but, uh, out of the 3,000, it's not very many, uh, apparently about 160 people RSVP'd, which would still be a pretty good take, I guess.

• 25:08Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  And they said, all right, come on down to the Washington Convention Center at 9:00 AM on game day. We're going to have a big brunch and a big party and then shuttle you over to the game.

• 25:17Josh Clark?

  Yes. And I thought something you mentioned is worth emphasizing that being entered in a grand prize drawing for tickets to Super Bowl 20 in New Orleans.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:28Josh Clark?

  That actually struck me as a really nice touch. Because now you've moved the focus a little further out. And you're diluting the focus that's being paid to this most immediate thing. So they're thinking about something else as well. It really, I thought that really was a good touch.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree.

• 25:46Josh Clark?

  So to get prepared for this whole thing, they, um, held three different dress rehearsals. That's dedicated for sure. Cause this was a big production and it was smart that they held three different dress rehearsals because again, there's a lot of moving parts. There's a ton of different cops. I think 166 different agents were involved.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  They were all cops. Everyone there was a cop, like the busboy was a cop. The, you know, person serving your drink was a cop.

• 26:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the janitors were cops. Everybody was cops. Like, when you walked into the Washington Convention Center that day, there was no one who wasn't a cop, a wanted fugitive, or the plus one of the wanted fugitive.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 26:29Josh Clark?

  Who had the haplessness of being brought along to this whole.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, the real victims, yeah.

• 26:33Josh Clark?

  So, um, so they, they rehearsed it many, many times. And one of the things I saw of these 166 law enforcement agents that were part of this, a lot of them were brought in from out of state because they didn't want to risk some of these fugitives from recognizing.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:50Josh Clark?

  The, uh, the marshals who say like were in the courtroom with them when they were first brought to trial or, um, had escorted them from jail to prison before they escaped or something like that. So they brought in a lot of ringers from around the country. So there was a lot of cops working from a lot of different offices, all for this one huge scam operation flagship.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, they had to shave a lot of, about half of their mustaches.

• 27:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  If you watch, I mean, you can see this whole thing. There's a, it's, it's only like 12 minutes long. An NFL Films documentary on this on YouTube or wherever. And, uh, you can watch the whole thing play out. It's incredible. But they look, it looks like a, a room staffed with 166 cops.

• 27:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  Dressed up as different things.

• 27:33Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah, I, I made it to up to, I think, minute three. I was like, I cannot watch law enforcement try to play it tongue in cheek. It's just, I can't do it.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, they, even the, uh, cheerleaders who were not dressed as cheerleaders, they were dressed in tuxedos, like everyone there was wearing a tux, which was hysterical.

• 27:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  Uh, cause you know, it was 1985, that's the epitome of class. But the, they were all cops and the, one of the women, um, uh, that was interviewed, she was like, I didn't want to do a cheerleader. She was like, I was in this, I was a US marshal. I want, I was rough and tumble and I wanted to, you know, throw some guys on the ground and put the cuffs on them. But they were like, no, we, we need you to be a cheerleader. And you're actually the first line of defense. Because what they did was they hugged these guys upon greeting like, hey, we're cheerleaders, hug, hug, hug. And they're sort of patting them down and feeling for weapons. Which is amazing.

• 28:25Josh Clark?

  What was that? There was some movie where they do that to great comedic effect.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 28:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I can't remember, but they're they're like hugging people while patting them down, but like just clearly patting them down. Man, that's gonna drive me crazy.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  Now, you'll think of it later.

• 28:40Josh Clark?

  Uh, or somebody will email in, I'll bet at least one person does.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:44Josh Clark?

  Um, so, uh, yeah, the, like we said, everybody there who who was in this building was a cop, including, um, the San Diego Chicken.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:53Josh Clark?

  Was armed, was an armed cop. Uh, that just goes to show you how big the San Diego Chicken was in the early to mid eighties, that they were like, bring the San Diego Chicken in for this Washington, um, Cincinnati football game on the other side of the country, make sure the San Diego Chicken's there, just to legitimize things.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz that was, the Chicken was for the Padres, not the Chargers even at the time.

• 29:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Uh, the only explanation I saw in the video was, uh, they said something about Santa Claus was gonna be there, and I don't know why, this is the part that has no explanation. He said, "Oh, we were like, we can't have Santa Claus, so let's get the San Diego Chicken." And I was like, uh, he said that as if that was the most reasonable statement he could make.

• 29:35Josh Clark?

  Really, that's hilarious.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  It was very funny.

• 29:37Josh Clark?

  That is, that shows a little heart.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 29:40Josh Clark?

  I should also say, I I poked fun at law enforcement trying to be funny. So I looked up to see if there's any cops turned, um, comedians, and there are.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Sure, I bet there are. And I bet that's their whole act.

• 29:53Josh Clark?

  Okay, I don't know if it is or not, um, but I can just tell you to go out and check these guys out. There's Kevin Jordan, Chad Ridgeley, who went on to be a groundling, Jim Perry,

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Officer Perry.

• 30:04Josh Clark?

  Alfie Moore, and I defy you to find the one Brit out of those.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I bet it's not Alfie.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  All right, so I'm a Bobby, right?

• 30:15Josh Clark?

  Wow, that was a great Alfie Moore impression.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  He's the kind of guy that talks like that, I think.

• 30:19Josh Clark?

  Anyway, I just wanted to toss that out there because...

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Very nice.

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  Thanks.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  Uh, Leshorn, as for his part, um, he's in the video, he's saying like, "Nobody can act like a cop here, we gotta smile," and he says... In this, in the NFL film sting, he goes, I know we're not used to smiling at bandits, but today we need to. I was like, bandits? What is happening in 1985?

• 30:42Josh Clark?

  That's right. Yeah. He said, no one can act like a cop. Kill them with smiles.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. Not with a planted gun.

• 30:50Josh Clark?

  Right. Oh my gosh. So like I said, there's a lot of moving parts in a sting where you're trying to nab 160 or so criminals all at once. Again, they rehearsed it three different times, but there's still tons of X factors that can crop up that you just can't plan for. And one of the, one of the reasons why they were really kind of on edge is some of these criminals who they'd invited were pretty hardcore. There were like armed robbers, rapists. There was one murderer in particular who was, who had escaped from prison. He and two other guys had dressed up as security, or not security guards, prison guards. And

• 31:33Josh Clark?

  from what I was reading, they have no idea where they got these prison guard uniforms, but they managed to escape. The other two guys got caught. The other guy, Charles Watkins, again, who was in on murder, he had become a fugitive and was wanted as a top 10 fugitive in the DC area. So he was a big fish that they were trying to reel in. But at the same time, this guy's a murderer on the run. You have no idea what he's going to do. So they really had to kind of keep it tight as much as possible. I say that before we get to the actual day, December 15th, 1985, we take another break.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  All right, let's do it.

• 32:19Speaker 02

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• 33:38Josh Clark?

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• 34:05Speaker 02

  Alrighty, we are back. It is not Christmas, but it certainly feels like it in 1985. It's December 15th. The Washington Convention Center is decked out. There's a big TV playing highlights of the Redskins' season thus far. There's music playing. Everyone's in those tuxes. They got red and gold balloons they're handing out. It's really fun to watch this thing play out. You've got these cheerleaders hugging and patting these guys down. One guy is leaning in, trying to kiss one of the women, and she's just pulling her face away.

• 34:42Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  And still has her armor on. In fact, she actually, Stacia Hilton, she was a US Marshal, the cheerleader that they interviewed, or fake cheerleader. And later on, she had gotten out and was brought back into the service as an appointment as Director of US Marshal Service by President Obama.

• 35:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but so for this day, she's a Redskins cheerleader.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 35:07Josh Clark?

  So what they would do is the cheerleaders would hug you as you were coming in, would not accept kisses, it turns out, but they would hug you, pat you down, although you weren't supposed to know that you were being patted down, they would direct you toward a table.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  She's a good hugger.

• 35:22Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly, very thorough. So they would, they'd pour you to this table where you would check in and to claim your prize, to make sure you were you, you had to show positive ID. And then when they, when they verified that you were on the list, meaning that you were a wanted fugitive who just showed up to claim your two free tickets to the, the Washington Redskins football game, they would give you a name tag and the name tag would say confirmed winner. And then if you were a dangerous criminal, they would give you a name tag that said double winner. And they could not find anywhere how they would explain why somebody was a double winner and not just a confirmed winner.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  Like, hey, what does that mean?

• 36:07Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. Like, why, why me? I have no idea what they said. Surely they had to say something, but I could not find it. It's lost to history.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  They, he said, you're dangerously close to winning the Super Bowl tickets, too.

• 36:25Josh Clark?

  That was great.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  That's how they do it in the movie, at least. So one person came that was not expected. It was an attorney from a local TV station that had the local broadcast rights to the games. He heard about this flagship international sports television, AKA FIST, and he was like, wait a minute, they can't do this.

• 36:43Josh Clark?

  I'm gonna go give them a piece of my mind.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  Exactly. He shows up with a cease and desist letter and the cops got him out of there. They were like, here, why don't you go have a talk with these two cheerleaders? You're like, buddy, you're gonna blow our cover here.

• 36:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they, they shot him in the leg.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. He hobbled out of there.

• 37:01Josh Clark?

  No, they took him outside. They had to keep it under wraps. So, okay, you want to talk about unexpected guests?

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 37:08Josh Clark?

  Do you want to know the definition of a scumbag?

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 37:12Josh Clark?

  A fugitive who gets caught up in the dragnet of a scam carried out by the US Marshal Service in 1985 and shows up without bothering the RSVP. There were 15 of them.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  That's funny. They just, they just came?

• 37:30Josh Clark?

  Yep. They just showed up. Didn't even bother to RSVP. It just got under my skin when I saw that.

• 37:36Speaker 02

  This is bad manners.

• 37:37Josh Clark?

  For sure. So there was a decent amount of people in this convention center. I mean, 100 and something, 150 cops? I think 160, a little over one cop to one fugitive. And then most of these fugitives had a plus one, if not all of them. So there is hundreds of people in this convention center. And like you said, it was a big party atmosphere, but right under the surface, there's a bunch of people with guns ready to like take you to jail. But the problem is you can't just round everybody up all at once, right?

• 38:12Speaker 02

  No.

• 38:13Josh Clark?

  So what they did was pretty clever. They would take 15 to 20 winners at a time to one of like the separate conference rooms in this convention center, which really, it made me nostalgic Chuck, because we played a show or two in the, in the conference room of a convention center, you know?

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:30Josh Clark?

  Australia loves those. Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:33Josh Clark?

  And they would sit them down and, and they would present them with some, I guess spiel to start as they shut the doors and everybody was settling into their chairs.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is Louis McKinney. He's on a stage. And then again, this is just like, hey, this is the party room where you're going to get your actual tickets. And he's the MC. He's the master of ceremonies. He's, he's wearing a top hat, a literal black top hat. And he doesn't just go up there and say, you're all under arrest. He settles everyone down. He said he wanted everyone to kind of get settled in and calm. So he's just doing a bit. He's doing stage work about how excited everyone is and getting everyone like pumped up. And then, and you can literally watch this happen. He says, "On behalf of Flagship International, we have a big surprise for you this morning. Everybody's under arrest." And you see behind the doors, you see all these like SWAT cops.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  It's their version of the SWAT, their SOG, Special Operations Group. That doesn't spell anything clever. They're like literal, have literal shotguns. And they're just like, huh, huh, they're right behind the door.

• 39:36Josh Clark?

  Hup, hup, hup.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Hut, hut, hut.

• 39:38Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  They rappel in through the windows, you know, break through the windows. No, they just, they literally just like kick in the door and go running in with shotguns. And you see these guys that like, About a third of them like immediately sort of put their hands on their heads as they were being directed to and get on the ground and about a third of them are like, what's happening here?

• 39:59Josh Clark?

  Is this part of the prize?

• 40:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, they didn't know what was going on, but you know, soon enough, they had them, you know, face down on the floor.

• 40:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, sometimes violently.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. 15 people at a time, then escorting them out a different door and just, you know, keep doing that over and over until they got everybody.

• 40:15Josh Clark?

  I have to say something really quick while I was researching this. I had a great little brush with coincidence that I was reading, I got to that part where McKinney says, everybody's under arrest. And I just happened to be listening to the Beach Boys Smile album at the time.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:31Josh Clark?

  It's not something I've listened to a lot. I just happened to decide to listen to that while I was researching this. And within seconds of reading that part, it reaches the part in the Beach Boys album where they say, you're under arrest.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 40:45Josh Clark?

  And that, it's worth, I mean, that's something, right? I mean, that's not your everyday coincidence.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  No, I love stuff like that.

• 40:51Josh Clark?

  I do too. So anyway, back to the story. Dave, like I said, helped us with this and he wondered something that I did as well. What happened to all the guests who are like the crowd of plus ones are getting left behind in larger and larger droves as this party room is like, you know, set and reset and people get taken out of the back door to jail.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:15Josh Clark?

  And no one knows. I mean, no, at least no one ever covered what happened. They just-

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I imagine it was, I've got some bad news and some more bad news. Like there is no good news. It's like your friend has been arrested and you're also not going to this football game and you also have to find your way home somehow.

• 41:32Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  Surely they gave him a ride home at least.

• 41:35Josh Clark?

  Oh, I don't know about that. I don't know about that.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  I mean, I was laughing about they're their victims, but they really are. I mean, what a bummer.

• 41:43Josh Clark?

  For sure. Especially those wives that found out that their husbands didn't let them read the letter.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:49Josh Clark?

  From, I am- Detonoff.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  And didn't want to go to the game to begin with.

• 41:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:56Josh Clark?

  Oh, my God. There are definitely plus ones like that.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:01Josh Clark?

  Oh, man. So when this whole thing was pulled off, the reason why the NFL Films little mini documentary is so thorough is the media was there. And it would make sense, the media was there because this is supposed to be some big deal celebration. So you see people who are like fugitives about to be arrested, coming into the convention center like, "Party!" like into the cameras.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:26Josh Clark?

  That are really like there to film their arrest, but they think they're there to film this big celebration because they won these tickets.

• 42:33Josh Clark?

  The LA Times was there, CBS News was there, Washington Post was there. They were like journalists were allowed to go basically everywhere. They were allowed to interview all of the, all of the higher ups conducting this sting. I guess they were just required to basically play it straight and pretend like they didn't know what was going on. But as a result of this direct involvement of the media, there was a huge national like celebration for how great the US Marshal Service was and how well they pulled off this amazing sting with not a single shot fired. And aside from violently throwing some of these people to the floor, totally nonviolent roundup of 100-plus perps.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's the, that's why you do it like this. For the, for the safety and for the money savings, or the efficiency, rather, I guess, financially. But the, the PR aspect of this should not be overlooked. Like, they wanted them to film this. They wanted them to know all the cutesy stuff. So one day NFL Films would release a mini-doc and future podcasters would talk about it and sort of make fun of it, but also bring them, you know, some attention. So the PR part of it was a very purposeful big deal. The guy, I've seen lots of different numbers bandied about by how many people they actually got. I think 144 arrests is what Dave saw, but in the documentary, the guy whose brainchild it was.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Said it was 101.

• 44:02Josh Clark?

  Really?

• 44:03Speaker 02

  But if you do the math on 101 arrests, it cost them $22,100 to pull this off. Uh, that breaks down to just $218 if they got 101 arrests. Uh, and the average cost of just a per fugitive cost of nabbing a single fugitive was about almost 1,300 bucks. So that's a, you know, that's a big efficient haul if you really look at it that way.

• 44:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, that, that's super efficient. And again, not a single shot fired. And don't forget, they nabbed Charles Watkins, the big fish they were trying to reel in. The murderer who had escaped from prison dressed as a prison guard, which really, if you're going to escape from prison, that's a real black eye to that particular prison, dressing up as one of their own guards and escaping.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:48Josh Clark?

  Um, so it was a big deal that they caught this guy. Uh, and Stanley Morris, who was the head of the marshal service at the time, was quoted in the LA Times saying, "It's a safe, clean, and creative way to get these people off the streets. There's no safer way to make an arrest than away from the home environment."

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, he's probably right. Uh, as far as Charles Watkins goes and, um, and Dave got some of this, by the way, he wanted to shout out the podcast Criminal.

• 45:17Josh Clark?

  Huge shout out.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, because they covered this and I think Dave, Dave listened to that and got a couple of these things in the end here from there.

• 45:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was a December 2024, uh, episode. So, so what I'm guessing is that the listener wrote in after hearing the Criminal episode.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Uh, maybe.

• 45:36Josh Clark?

  He said, "I got a great idea for your episode."

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah. So go check that out for Criminal's point of view. I'm sure it's pretty great because it's a great podcast.

• 45:43Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  Uh, but, um, apparently there was a producer from CBS News named Alan Goldberg, who went back at the footage and was like, I, I think he just thought some of this stuff was a little fishier than it was, uh, made out to be as some big huge success. And he saw footage on there of Charles Watkins, a 50-year-old man, saying like, "You got the wrong guy. You got the wrong guy." And it turns out, they got the wrong guy. They got Charles Watkins, senior. Uh, Charles Watkins, the murderer that was the felon, or rather fugitive and felon, uh, was his son. Uh, he was 20 years old. They got the wrong person.

• 46:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, apparently.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  The big fish was the wrong fish.

• 46:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, according to Criminal, like, he, um, he finally was able to convince him by showing, like, some ID and some other, like, identification, saying, like, "I'm not the guy you're looking for. You're looking for my son." And huge, again, hat tip to Criminal. They did some serious digging. Like, I was listening to it, and that, and Alan Goldberg, who is a huge source for this, he, they're the ones that he talked to. This is not, like, all over the place. Like, they found this guy and managed to, to just completely turn all of the coverage of Operation Flagship. Still today, when you read contemporary stuff about Operation Flagship, it is unquestioningly, uh, written about as just his perfect success.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:05Josh Clark?

  And they found this guy who was like, "This is not actually how it went at all." There's actually, in addition to getting the wrong Charles Watkins, the other big fish they were trying to get, Lloyd Golden, he was a top 10 wanted fugitive for armed robbery. And this Alan Goldberg, you know, God bless him for his journalist streak, he dug into Lloyd Golden and found that he was wanted for selling some drugs, not armed robbery. He wasn't on any kind of top 10 list. So, um, that's bad enough, but when you really start digging into it, you're like, "Well, this is not only a waste of money, it turns out, even though it was super efficient. It's actually, um, legal, but pretty unethical, considering who they actually did nab in this dragnet."

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it was, um, mainly misdemeanor offenders, uh, a lot of parole violations. There were six traffic offenses in there.

• 47:58Josh Clark?

  Okay, and now, remember, a lot of these people were thrown to the ground, regardless of their, of, of what they were wanted for. They were a fugitive, and they were thrown to the ground violently, in some cases, for traffic offenses.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Uh, there was one guy, and, uh, you can see him in the NFL Films doc, um, as they're bringing him out, he was like, "Man," he's like, "You know where I live? You could've come to my house."

• 48:23Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Basically, like, "Why did you drag me down here?"

• 48:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  "And make me go through all this. Just come knock on my door and arrest me."

• 48:30Josh Clark?

  He's like, "I want to speak to Mr. Duttonaw now."

• 48:35Speaker 02

  This turned out to be sort of the beginning of the end, though. It is, again, still praised as a success. If you look at any US Marshal stuff. But they, I think, like Fist 9 was just regular police work over a period of eight weeks. They got a bunch of more fugitives, which is great.

• 48:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, pretty impressive. 3,500 fugitives in eight weeks over four states and parts of Mexico. That's with no scams whatsoever.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, no scams, but they just, they don't do this stuff anymore. I guess this was sort of the golden age of that kind of thing. They're still out getting fugitives. I think last year they captured more than 3,000 violent fugitives in Operation North Star, but that did not involve Culture Club tickets or sweepstakes prizes or anything like that.

• 49:20Josh Clark?

  I think the answer is that in 19, starting in 1986, they went to nothing but beer and wine at their Christmas parties.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, not the rum punch.

• 49:29Josh Clark?

  Right, right. So one of the things about Operation Flagship is that it is so nuts that it actually happened. And when you just step back and look at it from the, you know, from the total outside and how great it was and everything, it's extremely entertaining. Cops smart, criminals stupid, can you believe they fell for this? There's football involved, like it has everything you could possibly want, right? So it did actually inspire some stuff. Like we said, that whole Mr. Zip thing inspired like the, I've got some, a rose delivery for you fugitive.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:02Josh Clark?

  This specific Operation Flagship inspired, apparently, the opening scene in Sea of Love with Al Pacino. Where Samuel Jackson is among the fugitives who were tricked into a meet the Yankees scam.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that was copped directly from this, I'm sure.

• 50:19Josh Clark?

  There was, so have you seen the movie Trap? M. Night Shyamalan's vehicle for his daughter's musical career?

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, have you seen it?

• 50:27Josh Clark?

  No.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Okay, I just want to talk for one quick minute about this because I heard this movie on two different movie podcasts I listen to. Scott Hasn't Seen, he covered this with Mike Castle, husband to Lauren Lapkus as the guest. And then it was also on The Flophouse, one of my favorite shows that I've listened to forever on the Max Fun Network where they cover bad movies. Elliot, Dan and Stu.

• 50:55Josh Clark?

  So Trap was bad, then?

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's it's wonderfully bad, though. Like, I heard both of these before I saw it. And I was like, I've got to watch this movie now because it's so funny bad.

• 51:08Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  And it is. It's I highly recommend.

• 51:11Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  The M. Night Shyamalan Josh Hartnett movie Trap, because it is so ridiculous and awful. And the choices that are made as a movie are just bonkers and hysterical.

• 51:25Josh Clark?

  Okay, so I know I am a sentient adult human being, and I know that a lot of M. Night Shyamalan's, some of his films are bad.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 51:36Josh Clark?

  Just bad, terrible.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 51:38Josh Clark?

  I hated Signs, hated Signs.

• 51:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:41Josh Clark?

  Although that was largely because of Mel Gibson's acting or over.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Most of them are pretty bad to me.

• 51:46Josh Clark?

  Huh?

• 51:47Speaker 02

  He's got a handful of pretty good ones, but yeah.

• 51:48Josh Clark?

  Well, that's what I was gonna say. I will still watch every movie that that man puts out because they're so imaginative, so creative. I also love the cinematography in his films. It's always so dark and moody.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, they look pretty good.

• 52:01Josh Clark?

  Uh, The Sixth Sense is one of the greatest films of all time.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:05Josh Clark?

  And even like you can give up on him and then come back years later and watch the stuff that you missed. And you're like, man, I love this stuff. It's such a great thing to watch on like Saturday afternoon or something like that.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like the Unbreakable movie and the the uh, Split, the whatever. There was like a trilogy and then that world.

• 52:25Josh Clark?

  Glass in Split.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I thought all those were pretty good. Um, but yeah, a lot of his movies are really bad, but still well made enough to be worthwhile, even if it's just sort of like a cringe fun watch.

• 52:37Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  And Trap is one of them. And, you know, whenever he pops up in his own movies, it's always so bad and dumb and obvious. And he he does so in the funniest, worst way in Trap.

• 52:49Josh Clark?

  Okay, good. I gotta see this.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  It's really a fun, a fun, bad movie watch. I highly recommend it.

• 52:54Josh Clark?

  Have you seen A Knock at the Cabin Door?

• 52:56Speaker 02

  I have not seen that one.

• 52:57Josh Clark?

  That's good.

• 52:57Speaker 02

  I I don't see them all.

• 52:59Josh Clark?

  Have you ever seen Servant, the show he made?

• 53:01Speaker 02

  Uh uh. Good, bad?

• 53:04Josh Clark?

  No, it's really good. It's a really good show. Like, he does a great job.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  He's a confounding filmmaker.

• 53:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  You know?

• 53:12Josh Clark?

  Just, just watch Servant. I think you'll like it. I haven't seen all of the seasons. I might've seen the first three and then I stopped. But I can tell you, the first three are definitely worth watching. And I think you'll get sucked in pretty quick.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, we cannot finish, though, even though I did mention Homer Simpson earlier.

• 53:28Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Uh, one of the great, great Simpsons episodes, uh, they had a sting operation where they were giving away a, a boat, right?

• 53:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yes, I'm sorry. I've watched it, uh, the other, yesterday, I guess I was watching it. And, um, I noticed something that I'd never noticed before.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  What was it?

• 53:47Josh Clark?

  At the head of the scene, at the beginning, as they're start, as, as they're pulling up to the police station, um, Homer's falling for a scam like Operation Flagship, but instead of Redskins tickets, it's a free motorboat.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:00Josh Clark?

  So he's all, he's all ready for this. He's wearing a captain's hat, driving the family up to the police station to claim his free motorboat. And at the beginning of the scene, as they're pulling up, Lou, one of the cops, is, has the door kind of like slightly jarred and is peeking out, right? When he sees Homer pull up, he like closes the door real quick.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, my God, you have to see it. I, like, I can't do it justice. It's just this extra, quick little thing that did not need to be added at all, but makes that whole scene so just perfect.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  Uh, just the, the heyday of that show.

• 54:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, season nine. It's, and the whole episode, by the way, too, Lisa the skeptic is like.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:38Josh Clark?

  One of the, like, more heartfelt episodes around, too. So good.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  Ah, Lou, why are the pretty ones always insane?

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Favorites. Uh, also, a little nugget on the end. If you're ever in Fort Smith, Arkansas, and why else would you be there but going to the US Marshal Museum, uh, you can see Louis McKinney's, uh, MC Black Top Hat on display.

• 55:02Josh Clark?

  Very nice. That was a nice little nugget.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thanks, Dave, for that nug.

• 55:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Thank you, Dave. That was great. Uh, we appreciate the assist on this one and on Harry Belafonte. It's Dave Week, everybody.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 55:14Josh Clark?

  Uh, and since I said it's Dave Week again, that unlocked listener mail.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  Hey guys, love the show. I just started listening around 2018. I'm now realizing that was seven years ago. My commute to work is about 15 minutes in each direction, so your release schedule is perfect to listen to a fresh SYSK episode all the time.

• 55:35Josh Clark?

  So fresh.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  I was listening to Automats and hearing Chuck weird it out about pie for breakfast is so funny to me. Because I'm a chef, and I will never understand why pie, sweetened, thickened fruit in a pastry, is dessert, but a Danish or a jelly doughnut, sweetened, thickened fruit in a pastry, are breakfast. And by the way, this totally vindicates you, because when you were like, pie for breakfast, and I was like, that sounds so crazy. And you said most breakfast foods are dessert, and I was like, what are you talking about? You're completely right. I wasn't thinking about all this stuff.

• 56:05Josh Clark?

  Okay, I love it when you say stuff like that.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  I was thinking about eggs and bacon, but I forgot about the sweet side of breakfast, and all that stuff is dessert. Same goes for cake and pancakes. Flour, sugar, eggs, baking powder with a sweet condiment. French toast is plain white bread dipped in a sweet cinnamon custard, griddled, and then you drizzle sugar syrup on top of it.

• 56:23Josh Clark?

  I love that stuff.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  So guys, Josh is right. Lots of breakfast foods are pretty much dessert, and I say, if it makes you happy, there's no reason to keep away from dessert foods at breakfast. Your stomach doesn't know what time of day it is. Thanks for all the amazing information. I've learned so much from you guys, and always have a great time listening. That is from Aaron Brittingham. And Aaron, thanks for proving me wrong. I forgot about all this sweet breakfast stuff.

• 56:46Josh Clark?

  Thanks for proving me right.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, and not to even mention cereal. I mean, what is Captain Crunch besides a bowl of dessert?

• 56:52Josh Clark?

  That's right. I like to have a balanced breakfast. I like the dessert part with a bunch of pancakes or French toast and syrup, but then I also like the eggs and the bacon part, too.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  I... Breakfast is my favorite meal that I never eat, but when I do, by God, I love it.

• 57:07Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah, I'm the same way. I don't typically eat breakfast, so if I'm going to eat breakfast breakfast, like, it's gonna be something like that.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 57:15Josh Clark?

  I gave up cereal, and I'm the better off for it. I just have to admit.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't eat that stuff anymore, but if I'm on vacation and there's a good breakfast place, I'm gonna party down, and then I'll skip lunch.

• 57:28Josh Clark?

  That's right. Nice work, Charles. Well, if you want to be like Aaron...

• 57:34Josh Clark?

  And vindicate me? Bring it on. You can send us an email to [email protected].

• 57:44Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 58:00Josh Clark?

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• 59:27Speaker 04

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