BTS BONUS: Conversations: Becoming One With Gaia, Plant Myths & Sacred Groves w/ Eva Rummery (2022)

It's time for another 'Back to School' BONUS!... That is, we're re-sharing some fun and (extra) educational episodes because there's always more to learn... This episode originally aired in September 2022. Liv is joined by Eva Rummery to talk all things plants in Greek myth and even some archaeology. Plant myths, sacred groves, and even how some plants were grown in the ancient world! Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com grouptrip.

• 0:43Speaker 01

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• 2:10Liv Albert?

  Oh hello, hello, hello. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby! And I'm your host who loves all things greenery, Liv. Now, how many plant nerds do I have as listeners? I have to imagine it's lots of you, particularly after the plant boom that was a lot of people's COVID lockdowns. Plants are just so incredibly fun, and having houseplants just makes me personally so incredibly happy. So I was thrilled when I heard from Eva, who's studying plant myths and sacred groves across the ancient Mediterranean, focusing on those in Greece. Phew! It turns out we know so much about how the ancient Greeks intentionally planted trees and plants in honor of the divine, and how fucking cool is that?

• 2:57Liv Albert?

  Eva and I had an amazing time talking about this. I learned so much and just got to nerd out about both my love of plants and trees and Greek myth, so I could not have asked for more. Because of where I grew up, on Vancouver Island, which is home to so many unique trees and also like old-growth forests like you wouldn't believe, I really developed an interest in these things, but never really thought to pair it with Greek myth. That and my mom was an enormous hippie when I was a kid, so it came with the territory. Fortunately, here's Eva to come in and wrap all of my interests into one tidy package. One thing I will warn you about is the audio on my side. Something went awry with it, and sometimes I sound funny. It's the damn technology I use to record conversations, and it changed, and I don't...

• 3:40Liv Albert?

  Anyway, how have I not mastered technology by this point? Honestly, it's beyond me. I just do what I know usually works and hope for the best, and sometimes it's quality and sometimes it's just not as good. Here we are. I am not a tech wizard. Regardless, the conversation is amazing and the audio really isn't that. I'm just an obnoxious perfectionist who feels the need to explain everything to you guys when I could probably just not say anything at all. But again, here we are. Do you want to hear about plant myths and sacred groves? Of course you do!

• 4:24Liv Albert?

  Conversations Becoming One with Gaia. Plant myths and sacred Groves with Eva Rummery.

• 4:47Liv Albert?

  Plant mythology.

• 4:48Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 4:50Liv Albert?

  It's so specific and it's so fun. And like, I already obviously have some ideas because I know so many of those transformation myths.

• 4:57Speaker 06

  Exactly. No, it's such a common trope in mythology, right? Um, Greek mythology specifically, but it's not researched very much, which is interesting. Like, it is researched for sure. But it is kind of just something that's put to the side slightly, which is very interesting, but very fun. It's a very fun area of research, which is good.

• 5:19Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Yeah, how did you get into that?

• 5:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, I really like plants. You might be, I've got lots of plants in my life and I also, I got in. So I know, and I did environmental science, so I just know a lot about plants. And when I was studying my undergrad of ancient history, I kind of realized that there was this huge gap, like about environmental history, like the environmental history of ancient Greece. Of course, this is talked about a lot, especially in archaeology. Like, the environment is very important when we go to archaeological studies. But more so the human relation to the environment, how humans use the environment in a more,

• 6:01Speaker 06

  I guess, like, mental way, um, and especially in a religious way, isn't really talked about so much. And that's really interesting when we get into Greek mythology, because of course, this is a very common trope. This is like something that they... We talk about a lot, um, even though it's like kind of more put to the side in these mythologies. It's just kind of there. Um, and so when I was going into my masters, I was like, well, I have all this knowledge about plants um, and environmental science, and I find this really interesting. So I might as well just do it. And my supervisor was like, yeah, great. Awesome. I was like, great. Let's do this. Um, so yeah, that's what I did.

• 6:45Liv Albert?

  That's so fun. I, I feel like I need to say that I have a ton of plants in my apartment.

• 6:50Speaker 06

  Incredible.

• 6:52Speaker 06

  Amazing, as we all should.

• 6:56Liv Albert?

  I have a pothos that is like slowly taking over my whole place. Absolute best. It's my precious baby. And then I have a monstera that I'm like staring at from here.

• 7:04Speaker 06

  My gosh.

• 7:06Liv Albert?

  Enormous monstera. So no, I'm a huge plant person too.

• 7:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 7:09Liv Albert?

  Yeah, it's, and they're just like, even as you were talking about that mythology, I'm like, oh, like, I think I'm more into, like, I'm obviously into plants, but like, when it comes to the myths, that's been my go-to in putting together tattoo ideas.

• 7:21Speaker 06

  Absolutely. Yeah.

• 7:23Liv Albert?

  Plants that are significant. Yeah, because they just are like so symbolic.

• 7:27Speaker 06

  They are, exactly.

• 7:29Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 7:30Speaker 06

  It's so true. And they, they'd really draw you in in that way because of course, like, as you're saying, so many of us have plants and we love plants and we understand this like human connection with plants. Um, but it's really hard to try and apply that to the ancient world, of course. Even though we have these kind of myths that kind of talk about that and have this symbology um, and symbolism with certain plants, looking back on that and trying to apply our love of plants to that is, it's a whole different story. And of course, it's very difficult and you've got to be careful with like pseudo um, history, pseudo archaeology as well in terms of like, oh, putting our own understanding of things into the past. But yeah, it's, it's easy to see how we love plants.

• 8:15Speaker 06

  We, we find this real connection with them as well. And the, and we find our connection with the ancient myths of them as well. And so how does that relate to the ancient people? Which is very much what I was interested in and what I wanted to look into as well. Yeah.

• 8:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah. So how like, how do you go about like, what, what exactly do you study in that way? What do you look at?

• 8:37Speaker 06

  Yeah. Well, it's again, it's, it's tricky because you need to be really careful to, yeah, not move into a pseudo archaeology pseudo history. So there's a really incredible vein of history, both modern and ancient, called environmental history, that really works with this. And I guess the, the purpose of environmental history is de-centering historical narrative from the human to the non-human, the environmental. And this isn't to remove, remove human history because of course, like that's, we are human. We, we're interested in human history, but it's kind of that acknowledgement that humans

• 9:18Speaker 06

  have never been the center of history and never will be the center of history. Like, human history does not emerge within a vacuum. And so it's about researching the environment of which all this history happened as the center, so that we can understand human history better as well, which is what my research goes down. That's, that's what I do. And in order to do this, we kind of focus on three evidence sources, I guess you could say. So textual evidence from the time period that we're studying, of course, to understand the human perspective as much as we can in the way that they themselves write it. Then there's archaeological evidence, which is really, really important. So that's where we go into like seed analysis or any other relevant, you know, archaeological

• 10:03Speaker 06

  sources and then environmental science as well, which is more a modern, like soil testing, all of that stuff, really cool things, sciency stuff. So that's, we go into that realm for it. And yeah, again, it's about kind of making the environment the center of our research so that it isn't put in the background as it often is with this kind of stuff. Yeah.

• 10:29Liv Albert?

  Heat analysis, like that sounds so cool.

• 10:32Speaker 06

  Oh, man, I love it. I didn't get to do as much of it as I hoped because I was in COVID when I was doing my thesis. But I hope to in future do much more, which would be so good. It's just so fun. But yeah, so that's what I did and I used sacred groves as a case study for this. And sacred groves is something that come up a lot in Greek mythology. And in fact, mythology is really our main textual source for sacred groves. And, you know, so Odysseus visits a sacred grove. I think Nausicaä tells him to go visit the sacred grove to talk to Athena. It comes up in the Iliad a couple of times. You know, of course, there's the killing of the Nemean lion in a sacred grove of Nemea.

• 11:17Speaker 06

  All of this, it comes up consistently in Greek mythology. But the people writing the Greek mythology don't really elaborate on sacred groves very much. They're kind of just mentioning them.

• 11:30Liv Albert?

  Yeah. It's like mentioning things in passing.

• 11:32Speaker 06

  That's right.

• 11:32Liv Albert?

  It's like, excuse me, you should imagine that like 2,500 years from now, people are gonna really wanna know.

• 11:37Speaker 06

  Right, exactly. I'm just like, man, come on, just give me a little bit more, like just something. Yeah, exactly. And that's because, of course, these were common features of their life. They didn't need to explain it. Like, people knew about it. So, yeah, so they come up a lot in Greek mythology. And what you kind of see in Greek mythology is this sense of communication in these spaces between the human world and the divine world. So often heroes will go there to communicate with gods. Or they'll be planted as hero shrines. So that happens in the Iliad of fallen heroes. So they'll plant them as hero shrines.

• 12:18Speaker 06

  And that's actually very much reflected in what we can see in the archaeology of sacred groves as well. And this all kind of ties into a lot of, yeah, exactly, the transformation stories. That's a really common trope in Greek mythology. And it's kind of this interaction in this very wild and.

• 12:39Speaker 06

  Only divine way with the human and the divine in this transformation of a person into this divine thing. And often people who are transformed become nymphs as well. Um. So we see that with Daphne, Euronome as well. So it's this interaction between the divine and the human. And it's really interesting to see that in the archaeological and historic record as well, that it was very similar, which doesn't often necessarily happen in mythology. Of course, we need to remember that mythology doesn't necessarily reflect society of of like the ancient society necessarily at all.

• 13:22Speaker 06

  But at least with what we can see with Sacred Groves, it's actually remarkably similar in a lot of ways, of course, different in a lot of ways as well. But yeah, it's interesting.

• 13:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah. So like, in what way? Like, how how does that kind of work in that sort of connection? Because that that alone is so interesting.

• 13:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, it is. So with Sacred Groves, there's lots of them. They're scattered all throughout Greece. And they're very much a local thing. So local people will set up a sacred grove with their local myths, their local histories, and their own rules based on their local traditions, right? So every grove is completely different. There's this kind of this historic understanding that Sacred Groves are kind of like a like all they're all the same, they're all equal, but that is just not true at all. They're all really individual and very much built upon local histories and change over time based on those histories as well. So I'll use an example. So Nemea, as I was saying earlier, of course, the historic place where Hercules

• 14:22Speaker 06

  killed the Nemean lion in the grove, um, but it was originally Hero's Shrine as well to Ophelates, who I don't know if you know the myth of Ophelates.

• 14:32Liv Albert?

  I it's familiar.

• 14:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. So it's in the um, the myth. Yeah, exactly. It's in the myth of the seven of thieves.

• 14:41Liv Albert?

  Oh, yes, of course.

• 14:42Speaker 06

  And they like pass through Nemea and they're really thirsty and they ask this woman, oh, please, I'm really thirsty. Can you get us some water? And this, she's a nurse, she's nursing this child, Ophelates, and.

• 14:55Speaker 06

  There's this, in one retelling of the myth, the child has been, it's been set, it's been fated that if the child were ever to touch the ground, it would die, the child would die. And but of the, as the nurse is trying to quickly grab this water for the seven thieves, she puts the child on the ground and a snake comes out, and this is in the sacred grove as well. A snake comes out and kills the child. And then the funeral games of Ophelates, of his death, are actually said to be the beginning of the Nemean Games and the Olympic Games at Nemea. So that's very much the catalyst of this kind of worship at Nemea. And actually, the myth of Hercules or Heracles, actually, we don't see that coming in until later.

• 15:39Speaker 06

  That's kind of a retrospective thing, but this is really the catalyst. And so the grove at Nemea, it's not a site where people lived. It was a site where people would go and worship, specifically Ophelates, but also Zeus, who, um, the grove was dedicated to Zeus. And what we see there is that people would go there to worship to the gods specifically, and specifically also to worship Ophelates in his name. And this is a very ritualistic thing. So at the grove, there's this, essentially a lump of dirt that was found by archaeologists and then was, you know, dug, dug up by archaeologists, um, lay a by layer.

• 16:20Speaker 06

  And it's this earth that's been ritualistically cleansed and then laid down, like, onto this, like, and just added on. So this mound of dirt just keeps getting higher and higher with, I think it was six thousand eight hundred animal bones that were also put within this mound of dirt, right? Wow. Yeah, so a lot of, a lot of animal bones. And so we see at Nemea that it was very much seen as a place where people would go and worship their gods, just like you would at a temple. And there was a temple there, but this is specifically in the grove as well. So it was like, it was like a temple, but it was kind of also seen as this.

• 17:02Speaker 06

  Kind of sacred, very, very sacred place where you would just do this one thing and then that was it. And a lot of other groves around the place, you weren't allowed to kill anything. There was rules around a lot of groves. So you weren't allowed to kill anything within the grove. Um, maybe you weren't allowed to touch the trees within the grove. Maybe you weren't allowed to chop down the trees within the grove. They were very much protected. And each grove, depending on local custom, had different rules. So yeah, we do see this really big interaction between the divine and the human in these spaces, which is very much also represented in the Greek myth. So it's, it's, you know, we see this huge similarity

• 17:42Speaker 06

  between the two. The grove at Corinth was um, a grove to Asclepius, um, originally to Apollo, then turned into a grove at Asclepius and a similarly to a lot of temples of Asclepius as well. We see, I don't know, you know, the, the busts of different.

• 17:58Liv Albert?

  They're like body parts?

• 17:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, body parts, exactly.

• 18:01Liv Albert?

  That's my favorite.

• 18:03Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 18:03Liv Albert?

  My ear, just like a single ear.

• 18:05Speaker 06

  Exactly. So we see those two in the grove there as well. So very much a place where they could go to this grove and be like, heal me, please, God, Asclepius. And even in some historic tellings, I think Pausanias talks about how there was this one guy who spent a night at the grove of Asclepius in Corinth and then was healed. I can't remember what he was healed from, but he was healed because he slept a night within these trees. So like the trees kind of formed this like separated space from the human world to the divine world, which is, yeah, and we do see that in the, in the myth, um, archaeology as well, which is very cool. Yeah.

• 18:47Liv Albert?

  Yeah. That's fascinating. Any reference to Asclepius and those, those like dedications are just my favorite things in the whole world.

• 18:55Speaker 06

  Exactly. And a lot of groves were dedicated to Asclepius. I think he's one of the main gods that had a sacred grove as well as Apollo, kind of crossover between those two, of course. A lot of groves that were originally to Apollo later became to Asclepius as the deities changed over time, because obviously that was something that was really important to people, like healing. Um, they needed something like that. So it was this, this place where they could go and be healed essentially, which is um, very cool. And it's all, it's all amongst the trees, man. Like it's cool.

• 19:26Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm picturing Greece in all of this conversation.

• 19:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:31Liv Albert?

  Imagine it.

• 19:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 19:33Liv Albert?

  I I went to Epi Davros for the first time on this last trip.

• 19:36Speaker 06

  Oh, my gosh.

• 19:37Liv Albert?

  Epeion there and I'm just like.

• 19:39Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 19:40Liv Albert?

  Taking it all in.

• 19:41Speaker 06

  And I think I think Epi Davros also had a grove around the Epeion as well. So.

• 19:46Liv Albert?

  Doesn't surprise me.

• 19:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, a lot of temples. So there were a lot of places that just had groves in themselves and maybe a temple separately or not a temple at all. And a lot of places had groves around the temples. So they were like kind of interrelated. And some scholars see this as kind of the, I guess, the continuation of Bronze Age kind of tradition, where there was a lot of worship happening in open sanctuary sites, which were like, kind of like groves. But again, no temples in that time as far as we are aware, of course. And so a lot of people see this as a continue, like a historic continuation of Greek culture from what they knew in their past,

• 20:29Speaker 06

  which was this like, yeah, worship within the trees and then slow transition to temples and not really seeing a separation there. Trees are still considered as like a tem- temple kind of space, but they also have now added in these temples as well, which is, yeah, really interesting to consider.

• 20:45Liv Albert?

  Yeah. I love that. It feels very, um, very connected with the area where I live, which is Pacific Northwest and like our entire existence is based around trees. I just came from a, like, hanging out with a friend and like, we have this one type of tree on my island and it's only on this island. And so it's like super protected. It's called the Gary Oak. It's a really dorky name. Name for something named Gary? I don't know. Um, but I always forget about it. But my friend was just like going off about the Gary Oaks and the protection of the Gary Oaks and our whole little, like, all our parks and everything. And I'm just like, oh, this is like exactly the same thing, but you know, like our own version of it now and like this connection with the trees and stuff.

• 21:26Speaker 06

  Exactly, exactly. And the protection as well, which is so like so interesting because you wouldn't necessarily. And again, this is kind of, I know you've talked about this before, but there's, you know, always this understanding that, you know, of course, ancient people couldn't be as intelligent as we are today. Like, you know, they wanted as advanced, like they didn't know the things that we know. And this is especially so with the environment. Like, a lot of people think that ancient people had no idea what was going on with nature. Like, they didn't know about plants. They didn't know. You know, of like what the environment was doing for them. But I think this is a real disservice to ancient people to consider it that way.

• 22:06Speaker 06

  Because these people were spending more time in nature than we like can even imagine, you know, and all of their lively livelihood and their food was coming from these spaces as well. So they very much understood the significance of their environment around them. And we can see that archaeologically as well, which I can talk about if you like. Please. Yes, but um I think that also comes into play when we're thinking about, you know, the divine nature of nature and the way that ancient people may have considered this as such. Because like, I think they just knew how cool it was, like they knew the amazing things that nature could do.

• 22:46Speaker 06

  And also how wild and unruly it is, which is very similar to how, you know, the gods are written about, you know. And of course, a lot of the gods in ancient Greek myth are nature gods. Yeah. Yeah, there's this kind of idea that because of course we as um a lot of history, history of Greek culture is written from a European perspective, Eurocentric perspective. And in our culture, we do have this separation, we have this separation between the human and the environment. Like, you know, the environment is something separate from us, but the ancient people didn't necessarily see it this way. And we often write about it as if it is this way, but there's really no evidence, at least until later.

• 23:28Speaker 06

  Maybe when we start getting into the Greco-Roman period and the Roman period of Greece specifically. You kind of can see more evidence of that occurring and that type of thought occurring. But this separation, at least as far as we can see, like through sources, didn't necessarily exist in the way that we see it today and the way that we interpret it today as well. So and then also the separation of the divine and nature wasn't necessarily something that occurred either. Um, so I think it's really important to consider that when we're looking, especially at these myths as well, that. There wasn't necessarily a separation between divine and nature and human and nature. It was kind of all interrelated and in like this thought pattern.

• 24:12Speaker 06

  And obviously, we can never fully know, but we can't fully say otherwise either. Yeah.

• 24:17Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I mean, I just think like they had three different Mother Earth style goddesses. You know, like one for every type of understanding of nature and earth. And like, and I just, I mean, even just at the very beginning of when you were speaking, all I could think of was like the different nymphs. Like, there's like

• 24:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 24:36Liv Albert?

  Twenty different types of nymphs.

• 24:37Speaker 06

  Exactly. So specific.

• 24:39Liv Albert?

  Yeah. A minutia of nature and connecting that specifically with divinities. But then also, like, you know, it's, it's the divine in nature, but it's also, those are the ways humans would then connect with it. It was their way of understanding the nature that they saw and they saw how magnificent it was, how powerful and important and life giving, and they just assigned divinity to it as a way to understand that. Like, yeah, I mean, God, it's just like,

• 25:13Liv Albert?

  it just makes so much sense.

• 25:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, absolutely. No, no, you're so right. Exactly. And it is very, like, it's not strange. I can, like, again, I'll talk about it. But it's, it is strange that we assume that there must be this separation when it's very clear that this was like, yeah, all very much intertwined. At least in the way that we perceive it from both mythology and historic texts, and then of course, the archaeology as well. And I, again, going back into Eurocentricism, which you've talked a lot about on your podcast, which I think is so wonderful. Because it's so important. Like, obviously, it's really sad and to see how this has been interpreted this way, but we need to talk about it so that we can deconstruct it.

• 25:58Speaker 06

  But interestingly, this comes a lot into play when it comes to plant mythology. Um, and specifically our interpretation of Greek mythology and nature gods. Because, so there's this line of historical study that kind of Turned up in the eighteen eighteen hundreds called comparative religion. And this is formed and changed a lot of different times. And I think it still goes on like today, but it's in different forms. So I'm by no means an expert on this field of study at all. But around the the later eighteen hundreds, comparative religion was used a lot in European studies of Greek history and Greek mythology.

• 26:39Speaker 06

  Because this was a time period when, of course, northwestern Europe was very much like, oh, you know, Greek history is our history, you know, like this is this is our past, even though, of course, like, you know, not really, but um, this is very much our history. So and whether or not this was purposeful or like, you know, just something that happened because this is what their understanding was, they kind of ended up trying to prove that Greek religion was more like our, you know, our Euro Eurocentric religions or like our Christianity than it was to like, you know, what Greek religion was.

• 27:21Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 27:22Speaker 06

  And the comparative religion was, and it kind of goes into primitivist type of side of history as well and historical interpretation as well, was kind of trying to show how cultures and their religions essentially changed over time based on the primitivism of the society, which it's it's so yucky to talk about. But essentially, the belief was, and of course, there was a lot of studies being done and anthropology in the eighteen hundreds happening in like Africa and Asia. And so there was this belief in this comparative religion and primitivism side of history that, okay,

• 28:05Speaker 06

  so cultures and their religions started off like the most primitive side of religion was when cultures worshiped trees, so or they just worshiped nature. So just the trees themselves, the nature themselves, this is the most primitive a society is. This is where society starts. And then there's they kind of.

• 28:25Liv Albert?

  You can hear the colonialism.

• 28:26Speaker 06

  Yes, exactly, exactly, you very much can.

• 28:30Speaker 06

  And then they kind of track this development of a culture through their religion, right? So the next stage of a developing culture is when they don't worship the trees themselves, but they worship um like tree-like deities or deities that represent trees, right? So that's the next stage. And then the next stage is when these deities become anthropomorphic. And then the next stage after that, and it keeps going until, of course, it's like, like one god, you know?

• 28:57Liv Albert?

  Of course, monotheism is the only way.

• 29:00Speaker 06

  Exactly, exactly. And there's this, there's a work that's so like basically just sets this all out. It's called The Golden Bough.

• 29:07Liv Albert?

  Oh, I've heard of this.

• 29:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. And it, it's, it's a very much like seen as like this capstone work for this time period. And a lot of authors really use this, like both like fiction and nonfiction and authors and historians use this work as like a template for understanding this type of stuff. But it very much sets this out, um this kind of like staircase to a modern society or um quote unquote, a European, um Northern European society, right? And so from works of this time period, rewriting Greek mythology or rewriting Greek history in relation to plant and nature mythology,

• 29:51Speaker 06

  we're very much trying to prove, or at least like whether again, purposeful or just um based on their own bias, can't say, never know, that ancient Greek society did not just worship trees, um that they, they didn't worship nature in itself, that they, they were worshiping, yes, they were worshiping nature-like deities, but they were anthropomorphic. It wasn't, it's not like, you know, these primitive, again, very big air quotes, primitive societies. Yeah, exactly. And so they also, we see some historical works and historical tempestations of people trying to track Greek religion and how it's developed to be by the time of, you know, democracy and philosophic thought in later um classical Greece.

• 30:38Speaker 06

  It's more, it's much more of like a Euro Eurocentric like religious society. And so in Bronze Age Greece, yeah, maybe they worship trees. We see these signum, um, signet rings of women hanging off trees. So maybe they worship trees then, but later on, no, they worship nymphs. And these are anthropomorphic nymphs. So, you know, there's this change. And so even in the way that we now interpret Greek myth and the way that nature is represented in this myth is very much. Um, we've got to be very aware of this kind of like bias that comes up through this Eurocentric interpretation that has happened in the eighteenth century.

• 31:18Speaker 06

  And even in, I'm sorry, not eighteenth century, eighteen hundreds and even into the, the middle of the nineteen hundreds, this was still happening. I'm sure and to some degree, it still happens today. But that's very interesting to consider.

• 31:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I can see it. I was just like, my whole mind's in bloody. Yeah, because, you know, if, if, if I, if I really think about the sourcing and even think about the visual representations that we have from the ancient world, we don't get a lot of super anthropomorphized nymphs.

• 31:48Speaker 06

  Not, yeah.

• 31:50Liv Albert?

  They're just talked about in a much more broad way. There's not explicit uh uh description of them looking human. Um, and then same, I'm trying to picture, like, I'm sure there are some in like pottery and things in certain cases when it was necessary because they often had to anthropomorphize.

• 32:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:05Liv Albert?

  To show them that way. But yeah, it's not explicit. Meanwhile, all the, the ideals we have of anthropomorphic nymphs do come from more like Renaissance art. And which is always like before what you're talking about, but it's still like, it's still a Christian.

• 32:20Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 32:20Liv Albert?

  Christianity, like it's coming from that world. That's so interesting. Yeah, just this idea that they have to be more human. And of course, like, uh, listening to everything you just said, all I can think of is like, what was happening in North America at that time?

• 32:35Speaker 06

  Yes, yes.

• 32:36Liv Albert?

  And, and the indigenous peoples who explicitly worship nation, or I don't know what worship is the right word, but explicitly are like very connected with nature. Um, and then, yeah, the, the. Oh my god, that's yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's very interesting to think about. And then again, not something that's often talked about because yeah, of course, like it's even because a lot of this nature kind of is seen as a backdrop to this mythology, right? Because it just, you know, it's it's stuff that's mentioned sometimes. Obviously, it's the backdrop of these events that are happening, but it's still very much forms our understanding of the society, right? And so um when we've interpreted and understand the interpretation of it this way, we get this more Eurocentric idea. And again, that's not to say that they didn't worship, you know, more anthropomorphized natives. That's not to say that, but we do need to be aware that our understanding of that has been shaped by this thought.

• 33:30Speaker 06

  Um. And even like the translations of a lot of these texts, the the word choice, all of that is very much could be very much influenced by this. So yeah, it's it's interesting to consider that. And like just what you were saying about, yeah, like North America in this time, same. I'm from Australia and of course we have a very um colonial colonial history here as well. And again, this trying to prove that religions that believed and worshipped nature were more primitive was like all like so rampant in this time.

• 34:05Liv Albert?

  Well, yeah, I mean, it's basically why both of our countries were colonized.

• 34:09Speaker 06

  Exactly, exactly. So it's all part of this narrative.

• 34:12Liv Albert?

  Yes.

• 34:13Speaker 06

  And again, it's so important to talk about this because we need to and we need to do that in order to deconstruct it as much as we possibly can. Of course, it's always going to be there, but as much as we can deconstruct it.

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• 36:36Speaker 06

  So when I was researching all of this and still continuing to research all of this, I was kind of like, oh, wow. So now when I'm looking at the way that these humans interacted with the groves and the trees of the groves, I don't necessarily have to think about, like, obviously, I can't say fully what they thought about it, but I shouldn't necessarily be thinking of them as seen like, you know. Like anthropomorphized deities in these trees, they may have just in fact been worshipping the trees themselves as well. And perhaps there isn't this distinction that we kind of are expected to see for so long, you know?

• 37:15Liv Albert?

  Um.

• 37:16Speaker 06

  Which is very interesting, kind of like shifted my viewpoint a lot because of course, like I grew up reading mythology, listening to podcasts and all of this. And um, yeah, you just, it's, it's so interesting to be like, oh, I've got to like change my viewpoint here.

• 37:32Liv Albert?

  Yes.

• 37:33Speaker 06

  It's very interesting.

• 37:34Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I'm obsessed with it. So fascinating. Oh, well, and it, it just makes so much sense too, to, to kind of break that down and, and like think about the actual sourcing and then what we actually know about how they understood nature deities, particularly nymphs. Like that's the thing that I'm stuck on now because like there really were so many different nymphs for so many different types of plants and trees and waterways and all these different things. And like, these ideas inherently are not anthropomorphic. Like they are natural. They are, it's the natural world. And, and to me, it always made sense. Like, I don't, I don't think I explicitly like thought about them anthropomorphized, but obviously

• 38:18Liv Albert?

  like all my varied biases and in how, one of these things have influenced it. But, but at the same time, all I've ever kind of imagined is just the nymphs existing as a way to not personify, but like kind of, I guess, but just as a way to like, understand the natural world and all of its like incredible sophistication and, and like connect that to, to humanity.

• 38:46Speaker 06

  Absolutely. And, and yeah, that could very much be the case. Like I'm, and I know that there, you know, iconography, there is iconography as like specifically from later.

• 38:58Speaker 06

  Greek history, I can't say for earlier Greek history, the web, you know, nymphs are anthropomorphized. So I know that at least at one, there are quite a few groves that are actually dedicated to nymphs themselves. Um, which is very cool. So we've got the Grove of Daphne, which is a a later grove. Even moving into the Roman period a little bit, but then we've got the um cult of Euronomi in Fagalia. Yeah, Fagalia and um they have a cult figurine there, like an iconocric figurine. Which is anthropomorphized there, but that again, it's it's a later Greek thing.

• 39:36Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:37Speaker 06

  And so that's like going more into the classical period and even after that as well. So, yeah, it's interesting. And of course, yeah, that's not to say that they didn't see them as anthropomorphized. Because you're right, it is that kind of, that's the connection between like, I can understand this. Because we are human and therefore we see human in things, right? So that very much could be the place, but it's not necessarily the case, or at least so much of the case as we once thought it to be.

• 40:02Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm. It seems to me it would be reasonable if it was some kind of combination, you know, where it's like. Where they're not always, they're not just human like, but it's like if you have to carve it, if you want to create a cult figurine, a cult statue. Well, then like, what are you gonna do? Carve a tree? You have the tree, you don't need to carve a tree. So you're gonna give it a human form for that purpose.

• 40:26Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 40:27Liv Albert?

  But yeah, more like purpose specific than than an inherent need to anthropomorphize every one of them.

• 40:34Speaker 06

  Absolutely. And um yeah, talking about, yeah, the figurines specifically in some areas of Greece. And then also in Mesopotamia, they also had groves in Mesopotamia, especially closer to the coast. So like more in Phoenicia, Lebanon area.

• 40:49Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 40:50Speaker 06

  There were a lot of groves there as well. And they often wouldn't have a figurine, but they would worship.

• 40:59Speaker 06

  Oh gosh, what are they called? Like they were, they were like a pillar. Usually they were like a kind of a, a pillar of wood.

• 41:06Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 41:07Speaker 06

  And I can't remember their exact name, but that's what they would worship. They would worship a pillar of wood.

• 41:14Liv Albert?

  Wow.

• 41:14Speaker 06

  So that, and that I think is an earlier phenomenon, but it did occur later as well. So that also happened. And again, these groves were all very different and very local. So this is all based on, and that's what I find so fascinating about them, because you get these snapshots of these different lifestyles and these different, like cultures in themselves from these groves and the way that they, and the rules around them and the way that they worship them. But yeah, so some groves did have just these pillars as well. And I know that happened in Greece as well. I can't think of a specific example, but that also did happen in Greece. So there's, yeah, there's a bit of both. A lot of groups also did have figurines as well specifically. Yeah, it's, it's very interesting.

• 41:55Liv Albert?

  Yeah. And I would love to hear more about Mesopotamia and Tunisia and like how these things function there or literally anything about those places. Because I, it's like constantly, I'm like, oh, if anyone wants to come on and talk more about the East, like I am so here for it. I just don't have the knowledge myself.

• 42:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, absolutely. So yeah, I, I fortunately haven't done again as much research there as I would have loved to. Just because the archaeological evidence are more so the, and archaeological evidence of like trees that we have there isn't as maintained as it is in Greece, or at least hasn't yet. So like the, obviously there's still digs happening every day. But um, yeah, there were sacred groves all throughout Mesopotamia and in similar but different ways, obviously. And again, very localized. So very much these local communities getting together to create these spaces um, where they would worship their gods there.

• 42:53Speaker 06

  And yeah, similar to that. And so there were these again protected spaces often, which is a really interesting similarity between like in almost all groves in Greece and um somewhat in Mesopotamia as well. These groves have specific rules for their protection, right? So yeah, often it was that you couldn't cut the trees. Sometimes it was that you couldn't kill anything within a grove or harm anyone. Slaves could even in Greece, like slaves could even go within a grove if and be like safe and protected there. Like they couldn't be like captured again if they were like running away or something. And we do see that in Mesopotamia as well. So these were similarly very sacred areas.

• 43:34Speaker 06

  And of course, there were different gods relating to them. So I think Asherah in Israel was one of the main like in the Israel region of Mesopotamia. Was one of the main um goddesses worshipped in groves there. And then, oh gosh, there were just so many like again, completely localized areas. And then when we get into later periods, when we have, you know, Greek influence in more Western Mesopotamia and then also then finally Roman, Romanized Mesopotamia as well. We see these later like old cults um of Asherah and of other goddesses, specifically often goddesses.

• 44:17Speaker 06

  Um but sometimes gods as well. Actually, these exact sites where these cults were become transformed into more Greek and Roman groves as well. So the Grove of Daphne, which is in um in Western Mesopotamia, Ador Taijia. So it has evidence that it was worshipped much prior and we don't know which god, which goddess, but there is evidence that it was back um in like the age of Babylon, Mesopotamia. Was also worshipped as a grove there. So these, these sites specifically are considered sacred

• 44:58Speaker 06

  and continue to be considered sacred later on. And this continuation is something I found really fascinating, both in Greece and in Mesopotamia. That often they wouldn't relocate groves. They would continue the sanctity of them in this exact spot. And that also kind of, I think, shows the significance of local history and this oral history that would continue even much prior to, you know, when things were starting to get written down. Of these spaces and the mythology relating to these spaces, that's something we see at Nemea as well. It had been worshipped since the ninth century BCE, as far as we know, but it's likely that it was much earlier

• 45:41Speaker 06

  as well, even going into the Mycenaean Minoan period, which like, you know, ninth century is around that time anyway. And it, it continues. So we had, we had worshipped there and then they started kind of moving down the mountain, but it's still in the same spot. And then finally, in the sixth century BCE, the grove that we now know as the Nemea Grove was built in this exact spot as well. And yeah, same thing for a lot of Mesopotamia, which later became Greek and then Roman groves. They were from very early time, even going into like Bronze Age on these exact same sites. So that's very interesting to me. I think it's very cool.

• 46:24Liv Albert?

  Well, and one thing I learned in having a guest on, speaking about the Hellenistic period.

• 46:29Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 46:29Liv Albert?

  Is, is the ways in which at least some of those kings and like conquerors didn't try to completely overwrite the local customs and the local myths. They just tried to like incorporate their own.

• 46:43Speaker 06

  Absolutely. Yeah.

• 46:44Liv Albert?

  Which is so, I think it just suggests like how powerful these things were to begin with.

• 46:48Speaker 06

  Exactly. No, I think that's so true. And yeah, again, I keep going back to Nemea. I just think it's a great site, but. When Macedonia came in with Philip and then Alexander into Greece. Um, for a little while, the Nemeian games had been moved from the site of Nemea to Argos. And Macedonia, the Macedonians, as an attempt to get the favor of the Greek people in this area, the local communities, again, going back to this locality. Where this, the Nemea was such an important site, obviously. They moved the games back to Nemea and they also reconstructed the temple there because it had fallen into disrepair.

• 47:29Speaker 06

  And, and actually replanted the grove, um, which was very, very interesting. And I can go into more of the archaeological evidence of groves if you'd like, but, um. It's a couple of groves were replanted and we can see the archaeological evidence of that in pit plantings, right? So we can, um, see that these plants have been planted specifically in these spots. And then replanted again in these spots. And that's what Macedonia did in Nemea. And we see that as like a way of gaining favor with these people. And yeah, exactly the same, yeah, going into Mesopotamia. And it was probably the same thing, trying to get on the side of the people by refurbishing and rejuvenating these places.

• 48:12Speaker 06

  They held really special and I think that just really shows how significant nature was. And specifically these sacred nature places were in the lives of these people. It's very cool.

• 48:24Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah. Now I desperately want to hear about how you figure out when and where things were planted and replanted.

• 48:33Speaker 06

  So the cool thing, and this is why I ended up focusing most of my research on Greece rather than Mesopotamia, which was a shame. But, um, the cool thing is that there were very specific planting practices at groves in Greece. And we have a lot of evidence of it because, um.

• 48:49Liv Albert?

  Cool.

• 48:50Speaker 06

  I know, right? Like, it's so cool. Um, so we can see essentially.

• 48:56Speaker 06

  With a lot of plants, there's this planting pit method, which basically you get a more mature plant, um, you put it in a pit, um, that has been dug and sometimes has like concrete edges, sometimes doesn't. And you essentially use the lower limbs of this mature tree to as and put them in under the ground to kind of form the root base. And then the roots will grow up from that point. And this was a common planting technique in this time. We hear some plant guy, I can't remember what his name is, talk about it, um, a little bit later in history, but we can see this going back into the archaeology.

• 49:37Liv Albert?

  One of the Plinys, the only people I can think of that is a plant guy.

• 49:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly. One of them. I think it is Pliny, actually. I'm not surprised. I think there's also like, oh, it's like Theocritus, it's almost Theocritus, like someone like that, who also talks about like planting techniques a lot later in history, which is very fun. But when we look back on them, we can like, oh, that's what this is. Like, that's what this is. Yeah. And so Nemea, um, there's the Temple of Herveiston in Athens, in the Agora, and, um, cause then there's a, a site on Cyprus as well, in Cyprus, where we see these planting pits, and they're all remarkably similar. And then we saw that these big pits, you can find

• 50:23Speaker 06

  them with archaeology, either because there's concrete around them, or because the root systems of these trees, which are very, very old and have been there for a very long time, have actually left that in like, like, you can still see the root systems of these trees in the archaeology, which is very cool. And

• 50:39Liv Albert?

  So cool.

• 50:39Speaker 06

  Yeah. Then based, of course, on findings in these pits, we can date the pits to certain time periods. And, and then sometimes pits were replanted next to them that are younger or in the same pits themselves. You can find this kind of either the surface level of the pit has been like raised and another tree like planted in, um, afterwards. So we can see that with some of these sites. The the grove was so important that if some kind of tragedy happened, whether grove died. So for example, in Emea, there was a fire in the sixth century BCE that destroyed both the temple. And what it seems like was the grove, because the grove was replanted when the temple was rebuilt.

• 51:21Speaker 06

  We can see that in like the it's the same exact time period of the pit planting and the temple being built as well. Um, and a couple of other sites as well. There was a flood in a site. Um, also in the Peloponnese that seemed to have like completely destroyed the site. Um, and we see a replanting of those trees in exactly the same spot. And Corinth as well. Corinth also has planting pits um there as well. So it kind of again shows the importance of these sites. These weren't just like. Like for some sites, of course, they were trees that were already there. And most of these places would have had groves prior to their planting. But the fact that they would work so hard to replant these groves.

• 52:04Speaker 06

  And for a couple of sites more than once, like they would plant them a couple of times. Shows the significance of these sites to the people. Like they wouldn't do that if they weren't significant.

• 52:15Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 52:17Speaker 06

  And.

• 52:17Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 52:18Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah, going back to what we're talking about, how um a lot of people don't consider the intelligence of ancient people. And how much they understood, you know, and in this case relating to the environment. The plants that were chosen to be replanted in these spaces are also very significant. So.

• 52:38Liv Albert?

  Okay, so excited.

• 52:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's so good.

• 52:41Liv Albert?

  Tell me what plants.

• 52:42Speaker 06

  So um a lot of the tree that I mostly focused on was the cypress tree, because it's something that wasn't looked so into. And I kind of had to narrow my focus a little bit, but I did look at some other sites as well. But at all of the sites, literally all of the sites that the cypress tree was either planted or protected in these spaces. And often these were around really important temples or shrines or just locations. As we've already like identified with the continuation of them. At all of these sites, these are really erosive sites. So like Greece is a pretty erosive place to start with. There are some really fertile areas. But these are like really erosive sites where, you know. They were losing like, like mass constantly.

• 53:27Speaker 06

  And cypress trees specifically are really cool trees because they don't need to be planted too deep. Um. They have quite shallow root systems, but they have very wide root systems, which work really well to hold soil. Essentially, and actually, modern Greek environmentalists now use a replanting cypress trees in um, really erosive areas to preserve the soil in these areas. And like, it's, it's not a coincidence, like, especially because I did like a, um, a database of all the groves and which trees were there. That these specific areas were where they planted cypress trees.

• 54:06Speaker 06

  Because these trees could live in these very erosive, often very dry soils, where a lot of plants just would not survive. Um, and also they were planted in planting pits and, um, of course, cypress trees are very small shallow root system that they could survive in planting pits. And then also they were, they were preserving the soil there as well in these places that had often previously experienced flood. Or had experienced hu- like mass erosion. Um, and of course flood, um, like flash flooding causes erosion as well. Um. Um. So these, these trees were kind of also acting as significant environmental protection places as well.

• 54:48Speaker 06

  And I don't think that was a coincidence. And I think the evidence shows that that's not a coincidence either. And we have later Greek authors, you know, going into like the first century A D. Um, talking about these properties of the cypress tree. And so we know that this was at least known by the first century. So it's likely that it was known earlier as well. Yeah. Um, it's very cool. And in other areas, different trees were planted, which were also significant to that specific environment as well. So, yeah, it just kind of shows not only that these places were really significant, but also that they understood that they were significant environmentally. Which I think, again, cannot really be separated from this like religious side of things.

• 55:33Speaker 06

  So these places were protecting the environments, these they knew that the trees were protecting this environment. And this is a very like divine powerful thing. And so it makes sense that these spaces would also be connected to the divine as such, if that makes sense.

• 55:50Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, now I'm thinking of the myth of um of the Cyprus.

• 55:56Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 55:56Liv Albert?

  Of Apollo and and Cypresses.

• 56:00Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 56:00Liv Albert?

  And like, trying to remember, I'm mixing it up, I think, for like where the tree was was originally like became. Anyway, now I'm like, does it connect with erosion?

• 56:12Speaker 06

  Exactly, it probably does. And you know, again, like, um, Greece is an incredibly like hard environment. It's really difficult. Um, again, there's more fertile areas. But it would be, again, I feel like disrespectful to ancient Greek people to not think that they would understand erosion and not understand the significance of the environment and root systems and the mushroom root systems as well in preserving the land. And yet, how this relates to mythology and all of that, I think you can't disconnect that from it.

• 56:45Liv Albert?

  No. Well, mythology is is so all about their natural world, as much as so much of it is also about like war and and loss and, you know, it it it is so many things, but but like so much of it really is the natural world in a way that like it it just, yeah, I mean, I think that everything about what they wrote and their culture and everything suggests that if they were anything, they were quite rational. And to me, that's what that kind of plant answer is, you know, like, it's rational. It's like looking at something and seeing connections and making those connections explicitly and then thinking, I can emulate this.

• 57:23Liv Albert?

  I can plant a cypress tree to prevent erosion or to help or because I've seen it in action just by witnessing this, you know, and. Yeah, I love that.

• 57:33Speaker 06

  Absolutely. And yeah, I love it too. And I think what I love about this like area of research is it just, it brings so much empowerment to the ancient people, which I think a lot of history kind of gets taken away, which makes me sad because um like, you know, these, these are incredibly intelligent people. These, these people who lived on the land and like, yeah, understood it. So I think whatever we can do as historians to bring that back to them and give them the appreciation they deserve really is really cool. And especially again, when talking about mythology, which is something, you know, a lot of people can say like, it's a bit strange, it's surreal, like, you know, that kind of stuff. That doesn't mean that the ancient people who wrote this, you know, were silly or like dumb.

• 58:18Speaker 06

  And like, you know, anything like that, it's, it's just because it's not though that we understand things today, doesn't make it stupid, which I think is also really important. Yeah.

• 58:29Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I, I think it connects a lot to a thing that I've been trying to emphasize a lot in the show in the past, like year or two, I would say of like, the way, because people, especially people who aren't in the world of the ancient Mediterranean, and like, I don't blame them for having this thought process because you don't think about it. But like, when it comes to mythology and storytelling, like they want to understand it in the way that we understand narrative structure and storytelling now. You know, like, things need to have continuity, they need to have an explanation, they need to be the same. Well, continuity, I was just gonna explain it again, but I already said that word. Um, but they need to like, you know, have a kind of like canon almost, you know, like, you need to be able to like, ask a question and have a singular answer it within a story,

• 59:14Liv Albert?

  which is not Greek mythology, because yeah, it wasn't written with that intention, right? Like, it was written with a completely different intention from a completely different people who did not understand narrative structure in the way that we do. Not to say they didn't understand narrative structure, but like, we tell stories now to entertain. They told stories to explain, to, to like rationalize things and to understand the world around them. And I think, I mean, plants are such a good explanation of that, and nymphs and nature, and just like Gaia as a concept, right? Like, all of it is a way to try to understand this thing beneath your feet, the way it's growing, the way it's not growing, what it is and is not doing around you. And like, an attempt to rationalize it.

• 1:00:00Liv Albert?

  In a way, like with the things that you already understand. And and that is so brilliant and incredible in its own right. It it's not like science in the way that we have science now, but it's like this very natural understanding of the world. And oh, I mean, it's obviously why I love biology. Yeah, making these connections to the plants is so cool.

• 1:00:21Speaker 06

  No, I completely agree with everything you just said. That's, that's, that's so right. Like, yeah, and I I completely understand the struggle of like trying to understand it through our lens and how that works, but we just can't like we just, it's just a completely different thing. We shouldn't try to. Um, like, obviously, there's a part where you just you have to, but like, yeah, it's just an entirely separate thing. And there's so much beauty and intelligence and magic in that in itself, which is really cool.

• 1:00:50Liv Albert?

  Yeah, it's my favorite part about it at this point. And I think it's just because I've gotten so deep and I've looked at so many damn things over the last five years, but like, I love that part.

• 1:01:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Liv Albert?

  The part that's like, no, I you, we can't understand it by modern storytelling standards or narrative. We, we physically can't and we shouldn't. We should try to understand it in the way of like, in order to understand it, you have to think back to what the people were thinking.

• 1:01:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:01:14Liv Albert?

  As they were telling the stories, why they were telling them, what they were trying to get out of it. And it's just like that in itself opens up so many more avenues for for like just excitement and like learning about these people and like speculating, like mine's all speculation, you know? I just want to like guess what they were thinking and why.

• 1:01:34Speaker 06

  Exactly. And that that's like, that's so fun. Like, I could, yeah, that's, that's what I love it too. And yeah, like doing this research and like, I just feel so much connection to these people, even though like, again, I probably have no idea in reality, like what they were thinking. But like, the more you learn about the context and like the way that they, you know, applied rules to things and applied um their rituals to things, you're just like, wow, like, it just, it's just like this connection to it. And that's really cool. And though I know that I can never truly understand it. Um, it's just so cool.

• 1:02:08Liv Albert?

  It's so cool.

• 1:02:11Liv Albert?

  Like all I ever want to say on this podcast ever.

• 1:02:15Liv Albert?

  Bonus cool before we get too far away from Cyprus. So, or Cyprus, Greece, I should say. But so I was. Again, before I started speaking with you, I was with a friend and we were talking all about plants. And then at one point I was like, this is really perfect. I'm gonna go talk to somebody about plant mythology shortly. And she was like, oh, I'm gonna listen to this episode. I can't wait. Cause my friend is like obsessed.

• 1:02:33Speaker 06

  Amazing.

• 1:02:34Liv Albert?

  Yeah, it was very well timed. Um, but she's also going to Greece for her honeymoon next month.

• 1:02:39Speaker 06

  Amazing.

• 1:02:39Liv Albert?

  And in part because she's my friend and she just looked at my pictures and was like, so I guess I have to go to Greece right now. You really do. I don't know how we're friends. Um, but I was just like trying to tell her about like nerdy stuff. She would be including plants. And the biggest takeaway I always have is like the pine cones of cypress trees are the cutest, silliest little things.

• 1:03:01Speaker 06

  So true. It's so true.

• 1:03:03Liv Albert?

  I would like my listeners to go and Google what the pine cone of a cypress tree looks like. They're like these little round balls that like vaguely represent or like vaguely resemble pine cones.

• 1:03:13Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:03:13Liv Albert?

  And again, I, I come from the world of evergreen trees. It's literally my entire life is made up of varied forms of those. And thus pine cones are a big part of my life. But cypress pine cones are so little.

• 1:03:24Speaker 06

  They're so cute. I think on this exact topic, I think there is, and I can't remember if it's Greek or Roman. I can't remember, but there is like a, like a pet name that is like, it means I'm, I feel like I remember it's either pine cone or cypress cone. It's, it's some type of like evergreen cone.

• 1:03:43Liv Albert?

  Yeah, they wouldn't be called pine cones. Pine cones are pine. Good point.

• 1:03:49Speaker 06

  But like, there's a, there's a like a pet name relating to them. I can't remember which like language it was, but I remember reading this one day and be like, oh my gosh, that's adorable. Um, I love it.

• 1:04:01Speaker 06

  It's so good.

• 1:04:03Liv Albert?

  Um, but I also, I would love to know other trees that they, that they planted in sacred groves, like both for practical reasons. But did they also have certain types of trees for more like? Divine reasons, more like, like a traditional, what's the word I want, like, like more connected to the divinity, I guess?

• 1:04:23Speaker 06

  No, that's, that's absolutely true. So, yeah, actually, some trees are specifically related to certain gods. As like Zeus and the oak, that's like a very common one. So the oak of Dodona, that's very common. So a lot of Zeus's sacred groves are oak trees. So that's a very much a, um, and again, it's hard to say whether these oak trees were there and then they were worshiped, like later given to Zeus. Or, um, whether, you know, they, like, it was a backtracking type of thing, um, like established for Zeus. But a lot of, a lot of, um, oak groves were Zeus's, though of course there are some Cyprus groves that are Zeus's as well.

• 1:05:05Speaker 06

  Cypresses were often either cult-like sites, or they were asclepius, as I was saying. And again, that, again, hard to say which, which came first, but another interesting one with the Cyprus is, this is a very medicinal, you know, tree, um, Cyprus sap and resin. Um, and we again have this in later texts from Greek authors, were used in a lot of medicine. So again, that's an interesting correlation there. It's like the god of medicine has a very medicinal tree related to him. I, yeah, again, very interesting. Then of course, the olive, um, which was a very common grove

• 1:05:48Speaker 06

  in Greece, and they very similarly are, they're pretty hardy trees. Um, that's why they do so well in Greece, obviously. Um, but again, they're often Athenian, um, or Athena's grove. So most, in fact, almost all of the olive groves are like in the Athens area. They kind of have the monopoly on, like,

• 1:06:12Speaker 06

  Sacred groves of olives. Um. There are others for sure, absolutely. But again, because this is again, sacred groves are so local, like they're local places um created by local people. And so it makes sense that um people who related with Athens and mythology of Athens would really identify with olive groves. And also, of course, olive groves grow really well in the region of Athens. Again, it's all interrelated. Yeah, so like the mythology of Athens and the olive tree are also related to the fact that olive trees do really well around the area of Athens. Um. So it's it's this kind of correlation as well.

• 1:06:51Speaker 06

  That's a really, really common grove. And yeah, they have a similar, they're similar to cypress trees. They are less hardy than the cypress. And um they do have deeper like root system, so they they have different rhymes, but they are also really good at protecting the soil. Um. In in similar, as all trees are to some extent, but some trees, if they are able to live in less fertile, less watered soils. It means that they're able to do that in a more significant place, because those places are more likely to like experience erosion. And then the other, which is like, there's so many, again, there's so many types of trees in groves, like you could really, I'd say, any tree that grew in Greece

• 1:07:33Speaker 06

  probably had a grove related to it. But um one of the more, I guess, well-known one is the poplar. And this is one that we see a lot in Homer, poplar groves. And they actually are often related to water, because poplars like water. Um. And they're more in fertile areas of Greece. And they then accordingly, um again, interrelated, often have to do with nymphs, like water nymphs. Hmm. And this relation to this fertile watered place with the poplar, which waters the poplar. Again, this this whole interrelation of it all.

• 1:08:15Speaker 06

  And that's something that Homer talks about a lot, about the the watered poplar grove and how beautiful they are. And yeah, the the relation with the nymphs in those areas as well. Yeah.

• 1:08:28Liv Albert?

  So lovely. It's just so lovely.

• 1:08:31Speaker 06

  Um, it's so good.

• 1:08:33Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah. So, oh my gosh, this is obviously so exciting. I know I love plants, but somehow I didn't quite anticipate how much this was gonna be.

• 1:08:42Speaker 06

  I know.

• 1:08:44Liv Albert?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:08:45Speaker 06

  We've all been there.

• 1:08:47Liv Albert?

  Right? Huh. Um, actually, now I'm thinking even to you, right before I got on the call with you, my sister randomly texted me being like, I need pictures of your olive trees and your monstera tree.

• 1:08:58Speaker 06

  I love it.

• 1:08:59Liv Albert?

  Really my entire family's.

• 1:09:01Speaker 06

  I really want an olive. I need to get one.

• 1:09:04Liv Albert?

  I have two little ones. I have two because I have one and I thought I killed it, but they are very hardy.

• 1:09:09Speaker 06

  Gosh, they're amazing. No, they just like do their thing. And that's the thing, like they're so, they're so good at it. And like, obviously it makes sense that they were so revered in like such a, such a like hard environment to like make like things from. Um, and like this was them, this was like their livelihood. Like, of course they were revered.

• 1:09:32Liv Albert?

  Exactly. Cause it's like, not only are you getting this tree that does so many things, good things that trees do, but yeah, I mean, like the wood was good for everything. The olives themselves, the oil made from the olives. Like I can, I can see exactly why Athena won.

• 1:09:44Speaker 06

  Exactly. Like why, why Poseidon had no chance, man? Like there was no chance.

• 1:09:50Liv Albert?

  Salt water on a hill? What are you doing?

• 1:09:53Speaker 06

  I can go on. No, it's mature. And again, it's a testament to the fact like Greek people just knew all of it. Like they knew, they knew everything about like the inside and outside of these trees, of these plants, like they knew it, like they really did. Um, and I just, yeah, I just need to know that, you know? And it's interesting because um, another thing that I was looking at, because I was, so I made this database of all these sacred tax groves, olive, um, and also other groves as well.

• 1:10:23Speaker 06

  And then, um, looking at all the sources for them that we had texturally and archaeologically. And, um, of course this, yeah, it was very fun. Um, and that meant that I was looking at things chronologically for quite a while because, you know, we had like a source at this time period for this grove and then this time period, this time period. And it's interesting because the.

• 1:10:46Speaker 06

  You can see there's like a shift in the, um, I guess like the appreciation or like the understanding of nature from like when after Macedonian coming, but then also with Roman influence coming into Greece and then like Romanized Greece, um, that this like this worshipping of nature changes quite a lot. And it changed obviously to the the more Romanized kind of um view of things. But there's this, there's this really interesting passage, you know, the inner cypress grove. And again, this is a protected grove, as all groves were. And um, it's, it's,

• 1:11:31Speaker 06

  it's not, it's not historically um, known as a historical fact that this happened, but it had was been written afterwards to represent what has happened, like in like a more metaphorical way to represent the power of Caesar, right? And the men are in this grove and they've been told that they need to clear the grove for like, you know, to for resources for the for the army. Cypress wood was really coveted, um, because it was anti fungal, antibacterial and um, Oh, my God. Yeah, this is a great tree. Um, yeah. So they were told that they need to clear this grove and the men are being like, oh, you know, the like, this is a protected place, the power of the gods, like, we can't chop this down. And it's very interesting because the way that they're

• 1:12:13Speaker 06

  talking about this is almost as if it's a negative thing that this is the case. Like, it's not like, oh, wow, this is beautiful. Like, it's like, oh, like, the the wrath of the gods is terrible, awful place where these trees are like protected by the wrath of these gods. And Caesar, according to this, like, like tale, I don't think this happened in real life, um, because I in like historically, he was actually somewhere else when this happened. Um, but Caesar picks up an axe himself and is like, basically is like, I do not fear the gods. I do not fear these Greek gods and starts chopping down the trees and then his men clear them out. So you see the change.

• 1:12:55Speaker 06

  And obviously, what the Greek people were feeling about this, we don't know because these are Roman sources. But um, the sacredness of these places were understood by the Roman people coming into Greece, but not respected in the same way. And and Roman people had sacred groves, but there's less um, rules and regulations around them, and especially not for Greek groves, obviously. And a lot of groves that we see this continuation from from even the Bronze Age, but especially just after the Bronze Age onward, right until Roman occupation, suddenly you're no longer worshipped at, like, pretty soon after that. So very quick shift there.

• 1:13:39Speaker 06

  Um, in that case. And it's interesting, some of them do continue and they get shifted into, um, again, like what we were talking about earlier, some, you know, of the people going to these places to get influence in those places did like, uphold these kind of traditions. And again, Daphne is one of those groves where that did happen. Um, I think that happened at Kos as well, if I'm remembering correctly, but these other groves, Nemea is one of them, just were not worshipped at anymore. And very possibly were chopped down as well.

• 1:14:12Liv Albert?

  Well, that just made me think of uh, the story of Erisichthon.

• 1:14:17Speaker 06

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:14:20Liv Albert?

  So the one, I'm gonna forget all the details, but I want to remind my listeners, but it's in all my spooky Halloween episodes because it's super spooky and gross, but also tree related. Um, but he like chops down the tree, right? And then the the nymph like basically makes him eat himself?

• 1:14:34Speaker 06

  Yes, yeah, yeah. It's so true. And so there's this like fear around like this wild thing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that's a Roman retelling, isn't it? Is that a Roman?

• 1:14:44Liv Albert?

  It's probably an odd one, but it's so detailed. Yeah, you're right.

• 1:14:47Speaker 06

  Exactly. So that's, that's a very interesting point. And of, of course, like, we know that the Greek people also had this kind of fear around their gods and um, of course, like, like that kind of like all powerful thing. But the, but Romans did.

• 1:15:01Liv Albert?

  Fear their gods in a different way.

• 1:15:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly. And also just the description of it. I remember reading this yeah, passage and I will I'll find it so I can tell you exactly what it is. But reading this passage and the the stark difference in the way that groves are talked about, like previously whether the place is like places of wonder and beauty. Like you can like, we can invoke like Calypso's O G G R and the grove there. And it's such a beautiful, wonderful place. Which is like, you know, full of divinity and godliness. And then the way that it was described in this passage, this Roman passage. I mean, of course, this was like kind of propaganda type of thing. Anyway, it's that was a very interesting. Yeah, you're right. Like that that image there really does invoke that.

• 1:15:47Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I'm like, I wish that had happened to Caesar.

• 1:15:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:15:51Liv Albert?

  Exactly.

• 1:15:52Speaker 06

  Yeah. So yeah, Caesar within the Bellum Civile.

• 1:15:58Liv Albert?

  Just civil war, if you want to make it easier on yourself.

• 1:15:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly. I do.

• 1:16:04Speaker 06

  Um, exactly. Yeah. So, um, and it's illustrated by Lucan Lucanius. And it is a fictional version of events, but we do know that they did chop down that grove in reality. But the way that it is told is, yeah, fictional.

• 1:16:18Liv Albert?

  He made himself seem more impressive.

• 1:16:20Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:16:21Liv Albert?

  Weird for Caesar to do.

• 1:16:22Speaker 06

  Yeah. And this is the grove at Massalia as well. So specifically the grove there. But yeah, it's very interesting.

• 1:16:31Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, those Romans.

• 1:16:35Liv Albert?

  Well, oh, my God, this has been so much fun, clearly.

• 1:16:40Liv Albert?

  Is are there any other like fun facts or anything that you wanted to share?

• 1:16:44Speaker 06

  No, just it's all fun, man. It's all planned.

• 1:16:48Liv Albert?

  It's like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. I obviously I'm thrilled every I always feel like I might sound like it's like a script that I talk about how exciting this is every time I talk to somebody. But like, as soon as you're in it with me, I'm like, I think you can get it. Like, it's just always so fun because I learn so much.

• 1:17:03Speaker 06

  I agree.

• 1:17:05Liv Albert?

  Nerdy things, like truly, it's just always so exciting.

• 1:17:08Speaker 06

  It is.

• 1:17:10Liv Albert?

  Uh, well, oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for doing this. So much fun.

• 1:17:15Speaker 06

  No, thank you so much for having me, man. This is great.

• 1:17:20Liv Albert?

  I'm thrilled. This is Very, very successful plant mythology. Oh, my gosh.

• 1:17:25Liv Albert?

  Is there anywhere that you want my listeners to follow you or learn more or anything like that?

• 1:17:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, I have a Twitter. It's at Eva Rummery on Twitter and I post a lot about plants on there. Some fun plant facts sometimes and a lot of medieval plant drawings I like to repost because they're hilarious and really fun. So yeah, you can find me there and anything that I'm doing, I'll post on there as well.

• 1:17:51Liv Albert?

  Wonderful. Well, I'll put your profile or your link to your profile in the episode description and I'm gonna go follow you.

• 1:17:57Speaker 06

  Yes, thank you.

• 1:18:00Liv Albert?

  Well, seriously, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much.

• 1:18:03Speaker 06

  Thank you so much. It's great. Thank you for being so interested in the plants. I love it.

• 1:18:08Liv Albert?

  Oh, my goodness. Truly. Like, I'm always interested in any mythological stuff that people bring me, honestly. Like, I will take all of it.

• 1:18:16Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:18:17Liv Albert?

  But also, I fucking love plants.

• 1:18:35Liv Albert?

  Oh, nerds, nerds, nerds. How fun was that conversation? As you can all tell, it was very fun to record, sometimes too fun, and we talked over each other, which is when the audio goes weird. Good times. Why is my recording software suddenly being a jerk? Great question. I say it in every conversation episode, but it's really always true. It is such a thrill to get to speak with people about their little niche subjects and learn from them, like sacred groves. How incredibly cool! How amazing is it that we actually know how they planted certain things and why? Both because of the archaeological evidence and then later writers talking about like that thing that we already had evidence for. It's like solving mysteries, this archaeology thing, like nerdy detectives.

• 1:19:21Liv Albert?

  Anyway, this is truly so fun and I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did. You can follow Eva on Twitter. There's a link to her profile in the episode's description. Let's talk about myths, baby. Written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians and handles so many cool podcast-related things, from running the YouTube to creating promotional images and videos to editing and research. Stephanie Foley works to transcribe the podcast for YouTube captions and accessibility. The podcast is hosted and monetized by Acast. I am Liv and I love this shit.

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