Inside The 18th Century Brothel Ship

Why did a British ship carry over 200 women to Australia in the late 18th century? In this episode, we are going inside the Lady Juliana, a convict transportation ship. What crimes were these women being punished for? What was life like on the ship? And why was it called a 'floating brothel'? Our guest, Siân Rees, is the author of ‘The Floating Brothel: The extraordinary true story of an 18th-century ship and its cargo of female convicts’. This episode was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kate Lister?

  Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:35Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets. Welcome back. Gather round, we have an episode for you. But before we can go any further, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults, other adults, about adulty things and adulty way of arranging around adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. We have to tell you that, because if you keep listening and start clutching your pearls, well, I mean, fair dues, we did let you know it would be naughty, didn't we? Yeah, we did. So that one's on you. Right, on with the show.

• 1:07Kate Lister?

  You are joining me on board a ship in 1789, and this is a pleasure cruise from Britain to Australia. Although I have to be honest, it's not quite what was promised to us in the brochure. No. I mean, the bed situation is frankly appalling. We're all sleeping on planks of wood, four of us or more to one. Then there's the manacles that they've got us in. I mean, no one at the travel agents mentioned anything about that. I'm not sure I'm on the right ship. In order to ensure better sleeping arrangements, some of my fellow female travellers are actually bunking up with male members of the crew. Yes, I am aboard the Lady Julian, an all-female convict ship that was sent out to the colonies to help repopulate it.

• 1:51Kate Lister?

  Oh, dear. And the legacy that they would go on to have is truly fascinating, and it's thanks to one remarkable historian that we know all about it. So, join me on board the Lady Julian, and let's find out more.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  What do you call him, Anne?

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Oh, money, of course.

• 2:17Speaker 03

  You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.

• 2:19Speaker 02

  I make perfect compliments of whatever my boss needs by just turning him up and pushing the button.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

• 2:34Speaker 04

  Goodness, what beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derek.

• 2:42Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheet, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. In July 1789, a ship set out from Britain loaded with a very unusual cargo. This was a convict ship, bound for the newly colonized Australia, and all of the convicts were women. And today I'm joined by Sean Rees to find out more about the Lady Julian, the women on board it, what happened to them? And to try and shed light on a very disturbing part of our history. Have you got your life jackets and your sick bags at the ready? Well, let's do this.

• 3:20Kate Lister?

  Well, hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheet. It's only Sean Rees. How are you doing?

• 3:27Speaker 05

  I'm very, very well, Kate. Thank you.

• 3:29Kate Lister?

  We are here to talk about, well, some serious maritime history. Would you feel comfortable with my saying that you're a maritime historian?

• 3:37Speaker 05

  Yes, I'll take that.

• 3:38Kate Lister?

  Because you've written a number of books on the subject, but the one that we're looking at today, it's the one that I'm most familiar with. I was going to say it's your most famous one, but The Floating Brothel: The Extraordinary Story of the Lady Juliana and Its Cargo of Female Convicts Bound for Botany Bay. I read this book when it first came out and it blew me away, but could you just give the listeners a sort of a quick overview of what this book is about and then we'll really dive into it?

• 4:04Speaker 05

  So the Lady Juliana, or the Lady Julian, as it was known at the time, was a convict ship which, right at the beginning of the British colonization or occupation or invasion, whichever way you want to describe it, of Australia, sailed from London to the Newport of Sydney with approximately 230 female convicts on board, who was being sent over to act as wives and comfort women and all-round breeding stock for the new colony.

• 4:36Kate Lister?

  It's such a wild piece of history. Right, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's start with this. Why in the 18th century were we sending convicts off to Australia and to Jamaica and to the Americas? What was that system about?

• 4:51Speaker 05

  Well, there are various reasons for it, really. One was because they were a source of colonists. If you started an infant colony in a place that nobody knew anything about, other than it was rumored to be inhabited by savages and cannibals, you weren't going to get a lot of colonists who wanted to go over there and set up. So you had to find people who had no choice in the matter. So generally, the early model for a colony, certainly for the American colonies, for the most famous ones, was that the king or a noble sponsor would give a massive great chunk of land, like Maryland, for example, to their mate. And that mate would pay a certain number of farmers, people with skills, to go over there. And then he would promise them that in return for doing this, they

• 5:35Speaker 05

  could have 30 convicts, 80 convicts, 100 convicts, or however many. And that pattern had been established way back in the 1600s as a model of building colonies. And it was still in operation, more or less, when Australia was set up.

• 5:49Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 5:49Speaker 05

  As part of that, one of the things that male colonists were, because it was always males who were sent over there, one of the things that they were promised, sometimes outright, and sometimes it was implied, was that there would be women available to become their help mates, which covered a variety of activities.

• 6:08Kate Lister?

  Right, okay. So this is punishment. What kind of crimes were people being sent abroad for?

• 6:16Speaker 05

  Well, the women were being sent abroad for, well, all of them were being sent abroad for petty crimes, because transportation was considered the step down from execution. Basically, there were very, very few sentencing options, because jails were not built for imprisonment. Most people now are sentenced to periods of custody. You go to prison for a certain amount of time. That wasn't an option in the 18th, really, well into the 19th century. You had a fine or a whipping at one end. And then there Was pretty much nothing else until you got to transportation or hanging. So if you committed something which was too bad to be fined or whipped for, but it wasn't regarded as sufficiently bad to be hanged for,

• 6:58Speaker 05

  you got transportation. And a lot of the time, if you got transportation, what it meant was you you sat in a jail until your sentence expired because there wasn't anywhere to send you to.

• 7:06Kate Lister?

  Wow, I didn't know that.

• 7:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, especially in the period we're talking about in the seventeen eighties because when America became independent, America had been the the dumping ground for convi- about sixty thousand convicts. People like Mor Flanders was sent to America as a convict and that had been going on through the seventeen hundreds. And not unsurprisingly, when America became independent, they decided they didn't want, well mainly, most of them decided they didn't want convicts anymore because they had a supply of slaves and slaves were cheaper, there were more of them, they caused less trouble, they had fewer rights, et cetera, et cetera. So they said, no, thanks, no more convicts for us. So the British state had, I mean, comical to look at, not comical if you were going through them, experiments to set up other

• 7:52Speaker 05

  penal colonies to find a replacement for America, mainly on the west coast, it was Africa, around Sierra Leone, places like that, which failed dismally. And then they thought, well, okay, Australia, I suppose, has to be Australia. We can't think of anywhere else. Let's do Australia.

• 8:07Kate Lister?

  Wow. So when you say petty crimes, because this was a point in history and it was called, was it the bloody period where they just decided that they were going to hang people for quite minor crimes, like theft and things like that, that, so when you say petty crimes, what kind of crimes were people committing that would result in transportation?

• 8:24Speaker 05

  Well, in fact, that the bloody period that you're talking, it was sort of seventeen fifties, and there had been a bit of a revulsion against that, particularly where women were concerned. And one of the reasons that the jails were so overcrowded, people backing up in the cells, was because judges were just not prepared to send a woman, specifically a woman, but often a young man to the gallows for theft of sixpence. So the women aboard the Lady Juliana, there are a few outliers who committed quite exotic crimes of, you know, crimes with exotic elements in them. Most of them were pickpockets, which was known as privy theft or theft from the person.

• 9:00Speaker 05

  And because it was privy theft, even if they only picked a handkerchief, because of those specific circumstances that was, this was theft from the person, it was a felony, not a misdemeanor. And felonies were liable for transportation and execution. So there were pickpockets, there were shoplifters, lots and lots of shoplifters. And maidservants who pinched things from their employers. And those three crimes, they were the staples of eighteenth century female. Crime and they covered probably about eighty or ninety percent of the women aboard the ship.

• 9:30Kate Lister?

  So when you've, you've stolen a hanky from somebody and you've been transported to Australia, which at the time must have seemed like you were going to Mars, quite frankly.

• 9:39Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 9:40Kate Lister?

  Were they transported there indefinitely? Did they have a, a time period before they could come back?

• 9:45Speaker 05

  Technically, they were given specific terms of transportation. The terms of transportation were seven years, fourteen years or life. Those are the standard. Terms handing out depending on the severity of the or the perceived severity of the crime. The vast majority got seven years. And convicts who'd been going to, there was a sort of institute, a sort of folk memory of convictry to America. And a lot of convicts returned from America after their time had expired and they returned with, you know, money in their pocket. It was quite a good option. Australia, of course, was a very different option. Even if you got sentenced to seven years, it was very unlikely. That there would be a ship coming back that you could hitch a lift on after seven years because it, there was masses of maritime traffic between America and Britain.

• 10:29Speaker 05

  There was nothing between Britain and Australia. So even if they were only sent down for seven years, it must have seemed to them that this was. A life sentence.

• 10:39Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 10:39Speaker 05

  And in fact, when they arrived in Sydney, the document that was sent with all convict ships to the governor of whatever colony they went with. Giving the list of crimes and the list of sentences. So the governor would know when they were eligible for parole and reliefs. Had been left behind. So nobody in Sydney knew what these women's sentences were, what the lengths of their sentences were. And a couple of people turned back to their advantage and a couple of people weren't able to.

• 11:08Kate Lister?

  What would Australia have been like in the 18th century? What kind of world were these people being shipped off to?

• 11:15Speaker 05

  Were utterly, utterly, completely alien. Nobody from the Western world, other than a few shiploads of Dutch, a few French, had set foot on the continent. And when we say set foot on the continent, we're talking about setting foot on the minute fringe of coastal area of the continent and the minute part of the minute fringe of the coastal area around what is now Sydney. Cook's expeditions had famously brought back botany and kangaroos and that sort of thing. So there was, there was some idea that it was this exotic alien continent. It had also brought back tales of, again, using 18th century language, you know, savages with spears and who were, you know, eating each other in the hinterland. So there, there was a sort of definitely a fear that if you ran away,

• 11:59Speaker 05

  and this fear was turned to the advantage of the people in charge, that if you ran away from camp, you weren't going anywhere except, you know, into the pod. Other than that, there was a very weird idea around the early convicts that there was a land route out of Australia, because nobody knew what the contours of Australia were at this time, really. And a lot of the convicts thought that if you went far enough into the hinterland, you know, you went north and didn't stop, you'd end up in China. So not having the best grasp of geography. And so there were various expeditions over the course of the convict colony when people, you know, departed in the night, making for China and were either

• 12:41Speaker 05

  brought back by the guards, or some of them went to live with Aboriginals and just stayed there.

• 12:45Kate Lister?

  Oh, wow. What was the survival rate? Because I'm just thinking, like, even today, Australia is a lovely place, by the way. Hello, Australians listening. But like, even today, their, their wildlife seems so insanely exotic to, at least to this northern woman, like, you know, spiders the size of plates and things in the sea that want to eat you. And the worst thing we've got Here are like adder snakes and some jellyfish. Did people survive that? I mean, obviously they did, but what were their chances?

• 13:13Speaker 05

  Almost the most alien part for most of the convicts, but certainly the ones on the Lady Juliana, was not so much that it was Australia, but that it wasn't a city. And these are women, the vast majority come from inner city London. They come from around the docks of London or Bristol. To them, going to Cornwall would be exotic, let alone going to Australia. It's not just that you've been transposed into this alien culture and botanical and fauna and flora environment, but also that you've been transposed into a tiny village, which has none of the infrastructure or the social relations that you've grown up knowing.

• 13:59Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Sean after this short break.

• 14:12Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there. And the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 14:54Kate Lister?

  Let's talk about the Lady Juliana. Absolutely terrifying. Whose idea was it to say, let's round up a load of women and put them on a boat and send them to Australia to be wives for the convicts there?

• 15:07Speaker 05

  Around the late 1780s. So the first fleet to Australia, what we know as the first fleet to Australia, was the first 11 ships carrying convicts went off. In May seventeen eighty seven and they arrived in January seventeen eighty eight, hence what Australia has as its founding day now. With some controversy obviously around that. It had all been done in great haste to clear the jails, not terribly well planned. And only a small minority of the people sent out on those eleven ships were women. So it was in the back of everyone's minds from the start that more women would have to be sent out if the colony was going to survive. You know, you need sort of breeding pairs to make a colony survive. Otherwise, you get a great deal of civil unrest and not enough babies.

• 15:52Speaker 05

  So there was a need for women out there, an obvious need for women out there, and that was reinforced by the first governor. Governor Philip, who wrote home specifically, we need women, you know, send us, we we need tools, we need men with skills and we need women. These are the the sort of three priorities. And the other reason that women specifically had to be rounded up was because the number of females in the jails in London at that time was swelling. A lot of women specifically had been put out of work because there was a long period of war that ended in seventeen eighty three with the biggest army and navy that had ever been amassed.

• 16:31Speaker 05

  And all these men were suddenly demobilised. And what traditionally happens when an army comes home happened, the men go back to work and the women lose the jobs that they've been doing during the war. So a lot of, it was called losing your place or being put out of your place at the time. So people who had been working in shops or working in domestic service or working on farms, for example, would find themselves suddenly with no means to survive and would turn to usually petty crime or a mixture of petty crime and prostitution when necessary. I use the word prostitution even though I know sex work is preferred now simply because it's the term that was used at the time. I don't attach any moral weight to the word at all.

• 17:15Speaker 05

  So there were lots of women in the jails and the jails had been built with segregated cells, large cells with men and small cells with ladies because they were not supposed to commit crime in such numbers. So they need, there was this big problem, that something needed to be done with them.

• 17:31Kate Lister?

  I can see what's happened here. So we have, we have too many women in the prisons and we've got letters coming from Australia of people going, send us women. It just seems so brutal, this idea of just like a bunch of men got together and they just, how did they even pick the women? Was it just eeny meeny miny moe? Did they ask them who wanted to go?

• 17:47Speaker 05

  Well, this is really difficult. I mean, the only way we can understand it is through inference because at least I never found any smoking gun which said, right, we're going to pick the young, pretty ones, you know, that I've never found anything as explicit as that. But the ages of the women, nearly all of them are in their late teens and early twenties. So they're breeding age. Not all of them, the youngest was eleven. And the oldest was sixty eight. So not a breed, the eleven year old, you can see still in brutal terms, you can see would have future breeding potential. The sixty eight year old, not. So some of it was just getting rid of, you know, people who are hanging around, clogging up the system.

• 18:30Speaker 05

  But that, I think they were, yes, they were selected as breeders.

• 18:35Kate Lister?

  About two hundred and twenty six women were chosen, is that right?

• 18:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, something like that. Two hundred and twenty two arrived in Sydney. We know that because the records that end were a bit less chaotic than they were at this end. And somewhere between two hundred and fourteen, two hundred and fifty is best guess, left Britain.

• 18:52Kate Lister?

  How long would it take to get from Britain to Australia at this time?

• 18:56Speaker 05

  If you went hell for leather, you could get there in sort of six months.

• 18:59Kate Lister?

  Oh.

• 19:00Speaker 05

  That's really going hell for leather with, you know, with a fair wind and luck on your side. The Lady Juliana took twelve months. I say six months, some of the supply ships took six months because they were going as fast as they could. And they didn't have to take care of the comets or the sort of, you know, human problems that they created. The Lady Juliana took twelve months.

• 19:18Kate Lister?

  Twelve months.

• 19:20Speaker 05

  Partly because they had to stop in Rio de Janeiro for lots of them to have babies. I mean, there were reasons it took a long time. And also because, you know, a lot of the men didn't want to get there because they were sleeping with the women.

• 19:29Kate Lister?

  Oh, my god. So we've got two hundred and twenty odd women on a boat surrounded by men. What were the conditions on board this ship?

• 19:38Speaker 05

  The condition, again, it sounds incredibly brutal when you describe the conditions in which the women lived and in which the seamen, the ordinary seamen, lived in an eighteenth century sailing ship. But they were probably better than the conditions that an awful lot of them had come out of. Definitely better than the jails they'd come out of and probably better than the sort of flop houses that most of them had spent their lives in, bearing that in mind. We don't have specific dimensions for the ship, but if you imagine something like three double deckers put end to end.

• 20:10Kate Lister?

  Okay, yeah.

• 20:11Speaker 05

  And then you add an extra layer on top of that. So there's three decks and the length of three double deckers.

• 20:18Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 20:19Speaker 05

  Top deck called the weather deck, which is where everything happens. You've got the, you know, the masters there and the men are running around with ropes and things. And then the middle deck, you'd have a sort of hatch in the top deck, like on a fishing trawler, where they throw the fish into a big sort of area in the middle. Do you know what I mean? They'd be like that. The next deck down is called the tween deck. And that would be divided into lots of cabins for accommodation and stores and the surgeons quarters and all that sort of thing, lots of partition walls. You go down to the next deck, which is now below sea level, below the water level. And that's called the orlop deck. And that on any ship is where the cargo is kept.

• 21:02Speaker 05

  And in this ship, the cargo was the convicts. So that's where they were. And then going back to the three double deckers, on either end of the three double deckers, at the stern, you've got a little bit which is built up and that's the quarter deck, which is the captain's territory. And at the bow, the pointy bit at the front, you've got something called the forecastle. And that's where the men before the mast, the ordinary seamen, slept. And everything happened in that three double deckers bouncing across the oceans for twelve months with. Two hundred odd women on board and about thirty men.

• 21:37Kate Lister?

  Were they supposed to be chained up if they were prisoners? Were they in cages or restricted?

• 21:43Speaker 05

  No, they weren't. They weren't in cages. And some of the later convict ships, people were held in appalling, truly dreadful conditions, conditions that created scandals when they became known back at home, with, you know, questions raised in the House of Commons and that sort of thing. The women on the Lady Juliana were treated, again, you know, everything is relative. We're looking at it from twenty twenty five and this is in seventeen eighteen. With relative kindness. So most of them were brought on board in what they called fetters, in those, in handcuffs, in iron handcuffs. And the man who later wrote a memoir of this voyage on which most of my book is based, he was the cooper and the blacksmith.

• 22:24Speaker 05

  And it was his job, when the women came, they were sort of hauled up on board from the lighters, the small boats that brought them out from the shore, was to have them place their hands on the anvil and he would knock the rivets off. And then during the night, and sometimes when they're in port, the hatches on the all-oc deck would be locked so that they couldn't come up. But they were not chained.

• 22:50Kate Lister?

  It's difficult to find the right language to ask the questions about this, but I want to say, but what do we know about relations forming between the crewmen and the women? But obviously, it feels slightly uncomfortable to call it a relationship because of the situation, but.

• 23:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's so difficult. One of the most fascinating things about this whole story. And at the same time, one of the most difficult to unpick and then to write about sensitively was the balance between coercion and desire and agency and so on and so forth. And basically, as with any recovered story from history, you can know a certain amount, you can infer a lot more, but without knowing the specific personalities of the people, who knows what goes, I mean, you know, you're called betwixt the sheets, it'd be literally betwixt, who knows what goes on?

• 23:43Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 05

  The seamen were by custom, and again, I haven't been able to find a law about this, but certainly it was regarded, it was sanctioned by the Admiralty. The seamen had the right to choose a wife when they were out of port. So there's a lot hinging on the word choose.

• 24:01Kate Lister?

  Um.

• 24:01Speaker 05

  They they just, you know, the women would line up and they said, I'll have you and I'll have you. What was the process? This we don't know about, except in one case. Going back to John Nichol, who was the man who knocks the rivets off the handcuffs of the women as they come aboard. He took a wife called Sarah Whitlam or Whitlam, who'd been brought down from Lincolnshire. And he writes in his memoir, I set my fancy on her when I knocked the rivets from her fetters. And he then says, I courted her for upward of a week. And then she moved into his birth. So that whole, those couple of lines, I think encapsulate the impossibility of, well, what, you know, what does courted mean? Was she grateful to him? Did she think, okay, here's a protector, he looks like a nice guy.

• 24:46Speaker 05

  I'm going to have a much nicer time sharing a berth with him than I am down in the Orloch with a bunch of, you know, criminals. I'll have better food, et cetera, et cetera. And that story and that set of calculations must have been undertaken by every couple that formed on the boat.

• 25:05Kate Lister?

  Without a doubt. Do you think that it would have been better conditions to be in sharing a berth with one of the sailors?

• 25:11Speaker 05

  Yes, or sharing a hammock with one of the sailors, yes. Other than the nature of the relationship, just to use that word as a shorthand, with the man concerned, you know, whether there was coercion within the individual hammocks, we can't know. But you would get a respite from the horrible conditions of the Orloch, you'd probably get better food. And we can romanticise the women on the Orloch too much because if you were a youngish woman who had not lived, you were not a hardened criminal, you'd done something daft or you'd done something because you were completely on your uppers and needed to, you know, buy something to eat. And you found yourself with two hundred women who had been quite vicious criminals for a long time.

• 25:53Speaker 05

  All the gangs, the bullying, the violence that we know of from prisons, men's and women's prisons now, that would all be going on on the bottom. Back of the ship. And if you could get yourself out of there, even if it meant sharing a hammock with a seaman who washed once a year, you might prefer, I can see your face, but you might, I know, it's a, it's a toss, I know, I know, it's a, it's a difficult one, but.

• 26:15Kate Lister?

  Oh, I'd take the hammock every time, every time. What about the captain? What the hell was he doing? Was he just like going, yeah, lads, you help myself, this is all great?

• 26:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, pretty much. I think so. I mean, he's also employed by the Admiralty. And the single most important thing for a captain of a sailing ship, which are routinely undermanned, I mean, they are all sailing ships, Admiralty or merchant, are run on a skeleton staff. And the last thing you want in your men is any sort of upset. You do not want them to be sulky, you do not want them to be unhappy. You know, the mutiny on the bounty took place that year. An unhappy ship is not a good place for anyone, and it's worst of all for the captain. So if what it took was to allow this arrangement, that would be fine for the captain. And the other thing was if they hadn't put this arrangement

• 27:07Speaker 05

  in place, from the experience of the other convict ships, which carried both male and female convicts on board, which was common, it was going to happen anyway. And if it didn't happen in this ordered, regulated, sanctioned fashion, it was going to cause all sorts of trouble.

• 27:30Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Sean after this short break.

• 27:43Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixter's Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there. And the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 28:25Kate Lister?

  You mentioned earlier that they had to stop the ship and go to port somewhere because they were all having babies. Where was that?

• 28:32Speaker 05

  Half a dozen children boarded in London because if prisoners had children under the age of six, they were allowed to take their children with them.

• 28:41Kate Lister?

  Oh.

• 28:41Speaker 05

  And then, you know, there's all these young, healthy couples having sex and the folks all. So by the time they get to Rio, approximately nine months later, about 20 of them, we think, although it's not clear, had babies there. And then the ship sailed on to the Cape in Africa. And from there, finally, to Sydney, by which time the babies would have been, you know, four, five, six months old.

• 29:11Kate Lister?

  God. So the babies stayed with them on the ship then?

• 29:14Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 29:15Kate Lister?

  Wow. There's so much to unpack here. So they arrive in Australia. Then what happens? Do the guys just go, see you later, love. Thanks for the memories. Write me a postcard and then they're off?

• 29:28Speaker 05

  Almost the opposite. The ship, the Lady Julian, had been contracted to go on from Australia to Canton, big commercial port, to pick up a cargo of tea, which was a massively profitable trade. So they were supposed to do this with the captain and all the men aboard. They were just supposed to drop the women off, you know, plug up any holes, whatever, take some fresh fruit on board and set off for China. And there was very nearly a mutiny because the men, a lot of the men by now, wanted to stay with the women. And the captain had to ask help from the Marines, the Marine Guard in Sydney, to separate the men and the women because the couples, maybe not all of them, but several

• 30:10Speaker 05

  of them wanted to stay together. And there were attempts by some of the sailors to, you know, swim ashore, to run away because they wanted to stay in Australia. And they had to be rounded up and forced back on board the ship. Because otherwise the captain couldn't fulfil his contract to pick up the tea in China.

• 30:26Kate Lister?

  Have you been able to find stories about who, like some names of these women and what happened to them on the ship and after the ship?

• 30:33Speaker 05

  I mean, it's pretty difficult to piece together, as you can imagine.

• 30:36Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 30:37Speaker 05

  But in fact, the early baptism, marriage, property records and things in Sydney are fairly complete. And those are normally the best way to track women, much less easily because they tend not to own property. And because they changed their name and because they're all called Sarah or Mary or Elizabeth.

• 30:52Kate Lister?

  So frustrating, isn't it?

• 30:54Speaker 05

  There's something like thirty Marys on the ship and, you know, Mary Smith and Mary Jones and so on. We can track a few of them. So Sarah Whitlam, who was the wife of John Nichol, had a baby with him, baby John, in Rio. And John Nichol, this is the Cooper blacksmith, desperately wanted to stay in Sydney with Sarah and was forced to go on to China with the rest of the ship. He promised, at least in his own memoir, he pledged to her and wrote it in the family bible that he would come back and get her and so on and so forth. Off he went. And she, the day after the Lady Juliana left, married another man.

• 31:39Speaker 05

  So that's a very interesting twist on who.

• 31:42Kate Lister?

  Yes, it is.

• 31:43Speaker 05

  On agency.

• 31:44Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 31:45Speaker 05

  With the little one, with baby John.

• 31:47Kate Lister?

  But then, maybe she had to. Like, I mean, what would life have been like for a woman with a newborn baby, who was a convict who'd just come off a ship?

• 31:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, quite. I mean, I think she made a strategic choice. She thought either he's going to change his mind and not come back, or I'm going to have such an awful time before he manages to get, and you know, get back to Australia after you've already sailed to Canton. And then from Canton to London, and then you've waited for a ship to Australia. There weren't many of them. You know, she'd be at the end of her sentence by the time he came with the best will in the world before he got back. And she married a man who was about to be emancipated. He was a convict, but he was about to be freed. And he was very well considered in the colony. And he was going to be given, I think, thirty acres of land to start a farm. And that was a much, she was a smart girl. She was a smart girl.

• 32:38Kate Lister?

  What about Mary Wade? I think her story is really interesting.

• 32:43Speaker 05

  Mary Wade was one of the youngest convicts on the ship. And she is an interesting one because when a documentary was made about the floating brothel some time ago, my time watch, and they tracked down some descendants of Mary Wade and showed them the trial records, the reason why she was on the ship in the first place. And the reason that she was on the ship in the first place was because she was a little thug. And she had been, I'm sure she had been completely brutalised, you know, I'm not, there are all sorts of reasons that twelve year old girls turn into thugs, they're not necessarily born that way. But her crime was that she enticed an infant, a two or three year toddler, to a well in London,

• 33:23Speaker 05

  or a privy, possibly an outside privy, stole all the clothing of this little child and, and left it to, I know, Mary, another Mary, you know, fortunately it was rescued. So not for whatever reasons, an unfortunate upbringing, I'm sure, not the nicest person. Mary Wade drove in the, Mary Wade was possibly the most successful in terms purely of number of descendants of any woman on the later Julian. And some time ago, I think possibly on the bicentenary of her, the ship's arrival in Australia, the whole of her descendants came together, her family, and there were hundreds of them, I think more than a thousand.

• 34:02Speaker 05

  And created a book and are very, that thing that happened in about the nineteen eighties where Australians stopped being ashamed of their convict

• 34:09Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 34:10Speaker 05

  ancestors and instead started to absolutely embrace and, and celebrate them.

• 34:14Kate Lister?

  Do we know if any of the relationships did survive? I mean, do we have any records at all of a man managing somehow to get back to Australia or his wife in inverted commas getting back to the UK?

• 34:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, several of the women got back to the UK, not necessarily with the men that they were with on the ship, but under their own steam. So one of the women, one of the most interesting women on board and one of the ones who, the few who wasn't a shoplifter, domestic servant or pickpocket, made her living by a sort of complicated fraud in Portsmouth. But she was literate, she was clever, she was numerate, she knew what she was doing. And she had small children that she'd left in England and had every reason to want to get back to. She had been sentenced to transportation for life, Nellie Kirwin. She didn't marry in the colony, she remained independent. And because the records, I was saying earlier, the record of the women's sentences

• 35:07Speaker 05

  had not been taken to Australia and most of the women were sentenced to seven years. When seven years came up, she presented herself at the government and said, my years, I'm, I'm done. I'm free.

• 35:18Kate Lister?

  Oh, I like her.

• 35:19Speaker 05

  And he said, yes, you are well done. Off you go. And off she went on the next ship to Britain. So she got back and several women did get back under their own steam. You know, they worked, they saved and they got back, which seems incredible.

• 35:32Kate Lister?

  It really does, doesn't it?

• 35:33Speaker 05

  The distance involved. Yeah.

• 35:36Kate Lister?

  That's just wild. So was this mission considered a success then? Like, it seems mad to say it, but like with the brutality of it and the cruelty of the exploitation. But in their terms of the people that organised this, was this plan to send a load of women over, did that work?

• 35:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, and a combination of this load of women and the next ship that arrived, which was a supply ship, together saved the colony. Because when the Lady Juliana turned up, the colony was on, absolutely on its last legs. So people were dying all over the place. There was scurvy, there was starvation, the crops hadn't come up, you know, nothing was working. They'd lost a ship. They were very, very nearly at the end. And in fact, when 222 women turned up, they were the last thing that was what? They were just useless knives to be fed. Unbelievably, after the colonists had been waiting desperately, thinking they'd been abandoned by London for 18 months, within a week, a supply ship, this was the ship that only took six months to cross the world.

• 36:36Speaker 05

  A supply ship turned up and starvation was averted. So those two ships between them, bringing a supply of women and a supply of seed, essentially agricultural seed, between them saved the British presence in Australia.

• 36:51Kate Lister?

  We don't want to say these things too loudly in case certain tech bros get wind of it and then start thinking that they can ship women around the world to reverse declining death rates.

• 37:00Speaker 05

  Stamp on that one immediately. You never know.

• 37:02Kate Lister?

  Immediately. It was a complete failure, this plan. So as a final question then, I'm wondering, why did you decide to call your book The Floating Brothel? It's a fabulous title. I love.

• 37:12Speaker 05

  I decided to call it that because at a very early stage of research, before I started doing any prior research with the records, I lived in Australia for a while and I read what was available on convict history. And there was very little available on female convicts. But there was a passage in one book by a male historian, which struck me as encapsulating everything that is wrong with the masculine gaze on history, because it described the women as, quote, "turned the ship into a floating brothel." And it seemed, it sort of took me back to the 18th century. It was their fault.

• 37:53Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 37:53Speaker 05

  All the responsibility lay with them, you know, not the men, the poor men who were just led by the nose. What could they, how could they resist?

• 38:02Kate Lister?

  What else could they possibly have done?

• 38:04Speaker 05

  What could they have done?

• 38:06Kate Lister?

  So Chad, you have been amazing to talk to. I knew that you would be. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

• 38:13Speaker 05

  Oh, God.

• 38:15Kate Lister?

  Just buy the book. Just buy the book. Watch the documentary.

• 38:18Speaker 05

  Just buy the book. Watch the documentary, buy the book. That's all I can say. The book is far more interesting than me. Just, just read that.

• 38:25Kate Lister?

  I don't believe that. But thank you so much. You have been so much fun to talk to.

• 38:29Speaker 05

  It's been a delight. Thank you very much.

• 38:36Kate Lister?

  Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Sean for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along, whatever it is that you get your podcasts. Coming up, we're going to be taking a look at sex work, sex workers and brothels throughout history from Japan to the Wild West to the Second World War. If you'd like us to explore a subject, or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast was edited and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, The History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.