Jeni Britton Bauer of Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams On Running a Business in Moments of Crisis

Ryan speaks with Jeni Britton Bauer, founder of Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams, about finding a diet that works for you, the trials of running a growing business during the coronavirus pandemic, and, of course, how the Stoics would have felt about ice cream. Jeni Britton Bauer is the founder and chief creative officer of Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams. Bauer dropped out of college to start selling ice cream after mixing her first special flavor, a blend of chocolate and cayenne pepper. Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams are available in stores nationwide as well as at Scoop Shops in 12 states and the District of Columbia.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better. Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Jeni Britton Bauer:Twitter: https://twitter.com/jenisplendidInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/jenibrittonbauerSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to The Daily Stoic, where each day we read a short passage designed to help you cultivate the strength, insight, wisdom necessary for living the good life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2,000-year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us at dailystoic.com.

• 0:27Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. It's crazy to think that, I guess it would have been in early March, I was scheduled to have today's guest come in to the Daily Stoic offices. We were gonna record and then she had invited me to an event she was having in Austin, which I was very excited about because they were opening a new Jenny's Ice Cream in Austin, and I do love ice cream. And I think the Stoics would have liked it too. Seneca certainly would have been an ice cream fan. Maybe Marcus really would have deprived himself, Epictetus probably.

• 1:06Ryan Holiday?

  But what I love about today's guest, Jenny Britton Bauer, is that she's dedicated crafts woman, craftsmen about what she does, even though what she does is make ice cream. In fact, she's been doing it for more than 20 years now. And Jenny's Splendid Ice Creams is one of the best ice cream companies, I think, in the world. Their stuff is delicious. We absolutely love it in my family. But, you know, I always love talking to people who are passionate about what they do. Not passionate because it can make them lots of money, or passionate because it's, you know, popular, but passionate because they

• 1:46Ryan Holiday?

  love the craft of it. They love the essence of it. They love just every element of the thing. And then that commitment is manifest or obvious in the final product.

• 1:59Ryan Holiday?

  And I think Jenny's Ice Cream is a great example of that. It's not just, you know, a great product, but it's this really successful business with, with stores all over the States. But, you know, it's not just a happy story. I mean, anyone who's been running a business in the midst of this pandemic knows, if you had anything that involved customers coming into stores, you just got hit by a truck. And so what I wanted to talk, originally I was gonna talk to Jenny, it was gonna be a much more fun conversation. Uh, but in fact, I think this version ended up being a much more stoic conversation. Cause we had to look at the adversity that she's been forced to overcome over the last several months. The opportunities that that's presented the business. How she's actually managed to improve and expand elements of the business because of it.

• 2:44Ryan Holiday?

  Remember, that's the idea of the obstacle is the way. And I think it's just a great conversation, which I'm really looking forward to you sharing. And if you've never tried Jenny's Ice Cream, I heartily recommend it. And anyways, support local businesses when you can, especially places like Jenny's Ice Cream. And most importantly, whatever business you support, whether you're getting a pizza at Domino's or something. What you definitely have to support and be conscientious of and empathetic for are the people that are having to show up every day and, you know, sort of take risks for, you know, not very great amount of money. And so that's one of the things I talked to Jenny about is sort of,

• 3:26Ryan Holiday?

  how do you keep your faith in humanity when you are experiencing, you know, a certain amount of callousness or indifference, you know, sort of on, on behalf of, you know, what we know as a society called Karens. You know, the people that come in and treat waiters and retail employees and, and other human beings like crap because they're too sort of selfish or self-absorbed for dealing with stuff in their own life. And she has a, you know, she's a very bubbly person as you, as you can tell. And, and I think she's got a lot to teach us as far as sort of maintaining your faith in humanity in the midst of what is a clearly a great test of humanity. And so here's my interview with Jenny Britton-Bowen, founder of Jenny's Ice Cream

• 4:10Ryan Holiday?

  and fellow traveler student of the Stoics. Telling my wife that I was interviewing you today and she said to ask if you would send us dairy-free gluten-free ice cream because it's her favorite.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Just that's the flavor she loves?

• 4:23Ryan Holiday?

  Any flavor, she'll eat any kind of ice cream that checks the two boxes.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Oh, that's great. Well, we have quite a few, actually. That's great. And actually, those are the dairy-free ones are the ones that I'm finding that I'm turning to even more lately for some reason. There's just this beautiful texture that's happening with the coconut cream that I love.

• 4:42Ryan Holiday?

  I feel like it's not as heavy too. Like, I feel better after, like, I can do dairy. My wife, like, ever since she had kids, can't do dairy, but I can. But I just feel better. Like, same. My wife's allergic to gluten. I'm not. But like, I just feel less crappy when I don't have those things.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's funny. I am, I'm just such a dairy person, but like, so my point of view is, wow, I'm such a dairy person and I even love these flavors. So, and I love, I'll even choose them sometimes because the flavor, the texture is just so good. So that's, I mean, I just think they're, yeah, they're good all around and that's awesome.

• 5:17Ryan Holiday?

  Is it weird to you to think that, like, people have been eating ice cream for like 2,000 years? Or, like, obviously, that's like the extreme end of dating it, but like, at the very least, George Washington liked ice cream. Like, how weird is that?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  It is weird. It's interesting because ice cream has been along this, you know, American, I mean, since the revolution and before, sort of journey and what we think of as, you know, America or whatever. And it is, it's so cool to go back and look at, you know, eras where ice cream almost just, well, absolutely reflects the culture of what was going on at the time. You know, in the beginning, it was very much an elite sort of thing because how, who could have that technology to keep something frozen before electricity? And so it was this marvel, you know? But then all throughout history, it's just been right alongside so many different, different moments. And 20th century is a really good century to look at with ice cream because literally every 10 years, there

• 6:15Speaker 01

  was a different big moment in ice cream that really was sort of definitive of the culture that was happening in America.

• 6:23Ryan Holiday?

  History is this weird thing when you dig into it because obviously so much of it seems distant. Like, if you were like, well, George Washington owned slaves, but that was a really long time ago. And then you're like, also, George Washington bought an ice cream making machine. You're like, maybe it wasn't that long ago.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Wasn't that long ago.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Yes, I know, it's true. And yeah, you can really like, and then when you start really looking at history in the thousands of years, then you do realize that wow, slavery really wasn't that long ago. And so of course, we're still dealing with the after effects of that. And that makes sense. And we should face it because it's here, you know?

• 6:59Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  But those that, I mean, that perspective is really, is really important. That's why history is so important. Because yeah, I mean, it wasn't that long ago, even though if that's all you see, then yes, it feels like it was a long time. Especially if you start comparing outfits. I mean, Jesus.

• 7:14Ryan Holiday?

  It's sort of like, people are people, right? And so obviously, there were different, there were some things that were very different technologically, but like, like cold, frozen stuff feels good in your mouth. And then when you add sugar on top of it, it tastes incredible. Like, it shouldn't surprise us that when people had access to some of this stuff, that actually it activated all of the same sort of things that it's activating in you. To me, that's a weirdly stoic idea that like, hey, this, this spoonful of ice cream that I'm having from Jenny's is not altogether that different from something that like, a Chinese king

• 7:54Ryan Holiday?

  was having 2000 years ago, and that we're, we're really kind of still on the same wavelength in a good, in a good way, like that we're, that we're still on the same, like tapping into the same energy as human beings, as, as all people who have ever lived have.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  That's such a great way to put it. But I also think of a lot about, and in my role in my company, I think a lot about, well, you know, like, there's, there's déjà vu, which is experiencing something that you've never experienced before, but like, as if it's familiar. But then there's this other idea, I don't know where I heard it, but somebody said it a long time ago. And I was like, that's so cool. But like, vu jadé, the reverse, where you can see something that you've seen that's super familiar in your life, that you've seen, you know, daily, you know, or a song, or, you know, something like ice cream, but see it with new eyes. And when you look at the history of ice cream, it is really fun to go back and think, well, what if I hadn't really experienced cold, frozen, you know, sugared cream in my body before? Because, you know, your body is hot.

• 8:58Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  So you put this frozen yummy, luscious lump in your mouth. I mean, it's like, very sensual. And you think like, well, God, that would have been incredible. And then, you know, kind of moving like, almost like time traveling with your emotional self, then you can start to see it now with those eyes as well. Because a lot of things that happened in the 20th century with ice cream too, is that it just got, it just exploded and then it was kind of everywhere. And then it was cheapened and then it was cheapened in culture, in our culture even, and sort of not really looked at as like a really beautiful moment. And so that's what we're trying to do and that's what I'm trying to do. But it's, you know, it's interesting how history really does inform and can really inform joy in a way too. And, uh, and understanding and perspective to experience joy and pleasure.

• 9:43Ryan Holiday?

  I struggle with that with the Stoics because obviously they seem very serious. You know, it, it, you, you, some might say joyless or depressive or whatever. I'd like to think that, you know, if ice cream had been around in the Roman Empire, that the Stoics would have consumed it within moderation and enjoyed it. But it, but it would have been ordinary enough that they wouldn't, you know, maybe have written about it. But I, I do think there is this idea that like, oh, because a Stoic is moderate, because it's Stoics and self-control, they sort of deprive themselves of all pleasures. But like what we know about Seneca, for instance, like Seneca, it's reported Seneca owned 500 ivory wood tables for entertaining.

• 10:28Ryan Holiday?

  So like you try to imagine how, how big your party is to need 500 tables. I've got to imagine if he could have been serving ice cream at these parties, he probably would have been.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and the thing about pleasure, I don't know how this relates to 500 tables. That seems like very much excess, but, but great. I mean, must have been having big parties. But the thing about pleasure is that it only, it only lasts if there's a little bit of it, right? You can't, um, like, you know, so things like ice cream, and I'm a very good ice cream eater. I, I eat ice cream every single day, pretty much. I mean, I almost never go a day without eating ice cream and really for pleasure, not just in, in the kitchen. But for me, it retains that place of pleasure in my life because I balance it. I'm very good at balancing it in my life. I mean, I don't drink calories, for instance, ever, because, you know, maybe on Sundays I'll have cream in my coffee, but like, because it's a balance for me, or I make sure that I'm not eating a lot of animal products because,

• 11:24Speaker 01

  you know, that's a balance for me, or for, you know, just sugar in general. But I think that that then holds it in that place of where I can, I can slow down and just pause and eat it and enjoy it and not feel burdened by, oh, this is terrible for me, the sugar's gonna, you know, I know what's happening in my body and what I've done and how I've set this moment up. And I don't, and I also forgive myself when I go wrong. But like, it really, like, I do think that there's a balance. And I think that's probably where maybe the Stoics, and just, I think, when you're alive on earth, you sort of find that, like, you know, if you just may, if you just search for pleasure all the time, you end up not really finding it because you overdo it and then you become sick or a disease or whatever. And so protecting pleasure, I think, is, and that's a little

• 12:07Speaker 01

  bit more Epicurean, I guess, but in terms of, I guess, how I think, because I do think from a point of view of pleasure, a lot, you know, I think, like, if it feels good, it probably is good, and then you should do it and then learn from it.

• 12:20Ryan Holiday?

  We get, we get Epicureanism almost as wrong as we get Stoicism, as far as the sort of stereotype, which is, you know, the Stoic has no pleasure and the Epicurean is about unlimited pleasure. And really, like, Epicurus, like, was about pleasure for which, pleasure in the amount for which there's no hangover. So it's like, I like ice cream, but when I eat so much ice cream, I feel sick afterwards. It's not pleasure, right? Even if it was pleasurable while it was happening. And so I think we have to, we have to understand that pleasure has its place, but it, and to have none of it

• 12:58Ryan Holiday?

  is to live a joyless crappy life, but to indulge in every one of them becomes its own misery. And I think, unfortunately, when you look at, like, the obesity statistics in this country, that's where a lot of people are. Like, they're not, they're not enjoying the ice cream. They can't not have the ice cream.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Right. And when we think about, okay, okay, I have to have the discipline to not do something. Let's just say ice cream, then it becomes like, then you start to get into, well, but if there's an ice cream that's made without sugar or without fat, then I can eat as much as I want.

• 13:38Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? And so I actually think that like this idea, I, for me, it's about like understanding what you naturally want and what you're driven to, to experience, but then, but then, and then reflecting on that. And so it's okay if I'm naturally like craving sugar today, which is the, you know, maybe the worst thing, you know, in our natural food system that you can eat or whatever. But how am I, but I won't feel good if I'm doing this forever, all the time. But it is a certain satisfaction of doing it, allowing your body to do it versus like this idea of like, well, if I'm just disciplined enough, then I will be perfect. Cause I actually think that a lot of us get really upside down when we start try, over trying to, to follow rules

• 14:20Speaker 01

  of, of whatever it is. I mean, what, for instance, like for, for me, I, you know, I woke up every year for most of my life and everybody said breakfast is the most important meal of the day. And they're like, all right, I'll eat breakfast. I should eat breakfast. And when I realized that, you know, I'm not actually ever hungry in the morning and I just followed my body. I realized that I can fast really from six or seven in the night until afternoon easily by just drinking coffee in the morning. And I actually feel really good and my brain works really, really well. If I just don't, if I follow what my body wants, you know, and it, my body doesn't generally want an excess of things, you know? And so sometimes tuning out the rules and the, and what everybody else is saying and what, you know, might be whatever,

• 15:02Speaker 01

  and just listening to your body and your, and being connected with that.

• 15:07Ryan Holiday?

  I'm glad you said that about fasting, because that's sort of the journey that I've been on the last seven or eight months. And what I've found is, one, yeah, I was sort of forcing breakfast. That was not only like, I didn't, I wasn't super hungry, but was forcing like an interruption in the day in a weird way. So instead of being able to start the day and do what I want to do, I was like, Front loading with this like meal time, but I found that I just think about food less. So I'm actually able to be more free with the food that I eat because it's just, I'm not thinking about it. I'm not planning food. It's just, it's creating a much more sort of natural rhythm, which really is a stoic idea, the idea of sort of living in accordance with nature, not trying to like, sort of create this hierarchy of rules, this

• 15:51Ryan Holiday?

  box that you're in, but kind of going with, not going with the flow, but having a smooth flow of life, which is Zeno's phrase, to me is a much happier place to be than a, than a person who's like counting every calorie or something.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. Absolutely. And, and that, we don't hear that very often, right? Because in America, everybody wants to like, know the answer and, you know, and, and believe that they're right, or believe that they somehow learned the right way and that, that maybe other people are wrong or something like that. But listening to your body, I mean, I, I completely agree that, that I, I just don't see food the same way. Once I started just listening to what my body wanted. It took me a long time to figure out when I was hungry and what I needed and whatever. And I just have a completely different relationship with food. And I didn't do anything. I didn't diet or try or, you know, all I did was just like, if I'm not hungry, I'm not going to eat. And that's it. And, and anyway, it just really changed the way that I looked at that. And actually

• 16:49Speaker 01

  it started to change the way I'm looking at a lot of things because of that.

• 16:53Ryan Holiday?

  And maybe it's a, it's similar to boundaries, right? It's like, I don't deliberately not watch TV during the middle of the day, but my boundary is like, I, we just, the TV is never on until like, after everything for the day is done. And maybe you're watching a little bit of TV before bed, right? But if you have, if TV is just this sort of force that's like, always there, you're going to do it much more than is probably a healthy amount, right? And I think what, what intermittent fasting has done for me is go like, look, the window for which food is on the table, like literally and figuratively, is, you know, from like, You know, ten, eleven ish to like five, six ish.

• 17:35Ryan Holiday?

  And then food is not, is at a minimum, not even possible all those other times. It's just lim, it's just shrunk it down, its role that it plays in my life. It's shrunk it down much to a much more manageable level. So if in that time I want to have ice cream or chocolate or, or whatever, I, I'm able to just be like, yeah, this feels good. As long as I don't like, you know, eat seven bars of chocolate, like I'm probably not going to do anything that I'm going to regret.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Yes, and when you, um, there are a lot of studies about sugar that just say like, if you're, you know, the thing about, the thing about sugar is that when you eat something that actually is sweet and, and it has sugar in it, then your body knows what you've just done and it will self-regulate in many ways. Definitely it can be addictive and you can eat too much and you can get into that pattern without question. But like, you know, if I'm eating like, um, a, an ice cream or a piece of candy, I know that that's what that is. And I, and I can sort of say, well, I obviously can't eat this every meal. That doesn't make sense to me. I cannot eat cake every meal, just the same way you weren't going to watch TV all day long, just because there's a TV there. But when sugar is put in a lot of our other products, so when you find sugar in bread and it, and you don't know really that it's there,

• 18:43Speaker 01

  or you find, or added sugar, or in, you know, tomato sauce or other things that are processed foods in the middle of the grocery store, and you're not aware of those and you end up eating more sugar than you need. And then your body starts to crave it and need it and it's, you become in this totally different place of, of, of what is sugar in our, in our food system. Versus like, well, you know, if you're going to eat honey in your tea, like you, you, you know what that is. And you can say, I'm adding sugar to something that I'm eating and I understand that and, and I have a relationship with that. And I can, you know, make sense of it and make it work in my life versus, you know, just, um, eating things that, that where you don't know where it's coming from. And/or when things, when it's like sugar substitutes, but just giving your body those, that craving of real sugar. So you can get actual energy from it.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  And so anyway, there's, yeah, it's, um, just knowing what you're, I mean, part of, I think. The joy of life or something is knowing what you're experiencing and being able to decide what you want in and what you don't.

• 19:44Ryan Holiday?

  Do you remember what your introduction to Stoicism was? I know we connected over Instagram, right? But I was just curious sort of what that journey was like for you.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Well, I, gosh, I don't know. I mean, I, it was probably through you. I read The Swerve, Stephen Greenblatt's.

• 20:00Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, such a good book.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  So good. I've read it a couple of times. I love it so much. It's just such an escape for me. I love that it's just all over time, you know, whether it's in Pompeii or ancient Greece, or in modern day, when they're trying to get the scrolls unrolled and like, and figure out what they, what they're saying. You know, they have to create new technology in order to do that. And I don't know, I honestly don't. I mean, I, I wouldn't say that I'm in any way an expert. I'm a tourist of all of it. I think it's so interesting. And I'm also, I also really love Epicureanism. And, and just, I just like, you know, that I've, I've spent my life, you know, in Ohio, just doing. And now I'm kind of in a time of like reflecting on the things that I've learned. And I'm finding that a lot of this stuff kind of lines up with the things that I've learned in my life, you know, from just

• 20:45Speaker 01

  doing and reflecting here. And so I think it's wonderful, but it's just been within the last few years.

• 20:50Ryan Holiday?

  I think Stephen Greenblatt's like an incredible author. He has a book called Will in the World. That's a sort of a biography of Shakespeare. That's like just incredible. Even if you've, if you don't like Shakespeare, you've never read a Shakespeare play, it's like, it will, it will get you to understand it. And then more recently, he did this book called Tyrant, which is, I think, like, if you're trying to understand what's happening politically, not just in America, but in the world, he basically looks at like four or five different sort of tyrannical characters in Shakespeare, and the lessons they teach you. So he looks at Coriolanus, and he looks at King Lear, and he, he looks at Julius

• 21:29Ryan Holiday?

  Caesar. And it's, it's totally fascinating. His point was, there's one, only one time did Shakespeare ever deliberately mention any like political incidents of his time. And it, it was a massively controversial thing when he did. And I think someone ends up getting executed, or there, there's like some serious consequences for doing so. And so every Shakespeare didn't cease to be political. It's just that every political statement Caesar that Shakespeare makes afterwards, he hides in character study from the ancients. And so you realize, oh, actually, all these plays are deeply political.

• 22:09Ryan Holiday?

  They're statements about human nature and what's happening in Elizabethan England. But he's talking about it through Julius Caesar or Coriolanus or King Lear. It's an incredible book, which I cannot recommend more.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get it. I, yeah, I really enjoy his writing and I know that I'll love it. I have, I've heard about the book, but I haven't had a chance to read it. I think he wrote that before this war, or he's like a Shakespeare scholar.

• 22:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, that's, yes, exactly.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's great. And then tyranny, yeah, or tyrant.

• 22:42Ryan Holiday?

  Tyrant, I think it's called tyrant, yeah. So I'm curious for you, because we were gonna connect in Austin in what, like, is it late February, early March? I forget what it was.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Right, as the world was turning upside down.

• 22:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you were about to open your store in Austin. I can, obviously, we've talked on the podcast a lot with people about sort of the health implications of COVID-19 and how devastating that's been. But I think maybe less explored is the economic consequences of it. How has that been for you? I imagine running retail shops this pandemic that mostly requires that people stay inside has been, and you're in the midst of an expansion of it. I imagine that's been an incredible series of obstacles over the last six, seven months.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Well, absolutely. And in the beginning, of course, we had no idea what was going to happen. I mean, we, you know, in that first six weeks, it, you know, nobody was sure. And so we were just shut down and it's scary. You know, you think you're going to lose your entire team, that everybody's going to lose their job. I mean, it's just like terrifying. The ground kept, you know, it's like we couldn't get our footing. Every time you'd sort of think that you could make a plan because our leaders have said, okay, here's what we're dealing with, then something else would happen. And so that was really, really tough. But once that started to solidify a little bit, we were able to really come together and make a plan, even with the uncertainty.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  And most of that involved pivoting to delivery in our stores, which we were, we were set up to do. And we luckily just absolutely at that moment, we had shifted from doing, from using the apps, DoorDash and Uber Eats and things like that, to actually doing order from our website, but then contracting out with them. And that really helped save money for us. So, I mean, a lot. Those apps are very expensive, but um.

• 24:39Ryan Holiday?

  They take big like referral fees, right?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it might be like 30%. It's a lot. And so we were able to, we were already set up to do that and we could pull this, you know, just, just switch that at that moment, which helped a lot. And then it was rearranging our menus to support delivery. So we could do that fairly quickly. But what we noticed, and so stores are definitely down and we're within that sort of hospitality range of anywhere from 20% to 80%. We're like in that, in that, you know, I think we've, we're at like 30% down in our stores now. But we were able to then just, just go full on with our website and with grocery. So we're, we are lucky in that way that we have three channels that we could then bolster. And then ice cream has been so, everybody's eating ice cream right now.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  It's just like, this is what happens when we get into a crisis as a nation, we all eat comfort food. And so ice cream sales are really up. So I wouldn't say that we're, I mean, we're still going to end up losing money this year. That's just like the nature of what's going on right now.

• 25:37Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Um, but we're better off than others and I, and I feel so, you know, strongly for some, just all of my friends who are struggling so, so deeply in business. And I've been doing a lot of work in small business policy lately and learning about that avenue and like just, just learning about that, that world and how the federal government and local governments can support small business. And because we're going to need to, because I mean, just, just, you know, this week, one of my absolute favorite ice cream shops in New York City called Ice and Vice. I love them so much. Great guys, really creative, awesome ice cream. It's closing because of COVID and I'm seeing this all over the country, not just in ice cream, of course, but everywhere. It's sort of sad, but um, hopefully, hopefully we'll get. We'll get through it. Yeah, winter's coming. So it's like, it's, you know, who knows? Who knows where we're gonna end up?

• 26:19Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you brought you brought up Pompeii, which is funny because I was looking at your Twitter and like your pinned tweet from like the last day of February is like, we're opening two new stores in Tampa. Come see us. And it kind of reminded me of those like, those people that were sort of caught entombed, like eating at the dinner table or like, you know, at the baths in Pompeii. And all of a sudden, you know, like you, you think life is going one way and everything's normal and you've made all these plans. And then, as the Stoics would say, sort of fortune intervenes and you're just like, what happened?

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so, that is, I mean, that's so interesting because it really was like this, like very quick before and after, you know, everything is going full speed ahead. And then all of a sudden, everything comes to a screeching halt. Over the last several months, I've also been doing a lot of reflection about, because our stores are now open with like shields and like, you can't walk into the most of our stores. You just walk up, order and then pick up on the other side. And, and so, you know, safety is just our very, very first priority. And that's been, and we've been doing really great job at it. But it's still not the full experience of being in a store. And so I've been thinking a lot about, well, what is that full experience of being in a store? Like, and, and also, you know, going back to our history discussion of what has that been for America?

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Like, like the idea of being with your community, just, just standing right next to somebody without a mask on. Having a sample of, of an ice cream you've never had before, that, you know, pushing yourself a little bit out of your comfort zone. And then, and then ultimately finding this flavor that perfectly reflects your, you know, tastes. And then, you know, getting to share a little bit with your family and friends that you're with. I mean, it's such a beautiful moment that, um, you know, I'm really eager to get it back. And I, I feel like I appreciate it so much more. And I've always appreciated ice cream. I've been doing this for my, literally my whole life. I mean, since I was, you know, for, for 20, almost 26 years. This is like the only thing I've done. But, um, but I feel like every year, my appreciation for this grows because it's not just the scoop of, you know, cream and sugar. It's, um,

• 28:21Speaker 01

  It's this whole culture that we have around it and it really is about people and coming together and telling stories and that's no matter where you are in the, on the planet, whatever ice cream is there, it's about telling the local stories or, and bringing people together to share a moment together and, and often, who, you know, whatever you choose, what flavor you choose is a reflection of who you are.

• 28:39Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  And, and that's part of how you're letting your guards down to share with someone else a little bit of you and then learn something about someone else. And so I really just feel like, you know, now we need that more than ever.

• 28:50Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  That kind of place and of course it's going to be a little while, but, but I'm even more sort of committed to making sure that we can figure out how to get that back.

• 28:58Ryan Holiday?

  It's, it's so hard because, Brett, you have your business, which you've worked for years and years to build and you have sort of what's in your probably immediate self-interest, then there's like, sort of what's legally allowed, right? Because there has been sort of so much latitude in some places and then less latitude in other places and then sort of contradictory, confusing guidelines in other places. Then there's, there's probably what your employees want, then there's what your employees need to survive, like financially, then there's what your employees need, or you need to provide to your employees to keep them safe.

• 29:38Ryan Holiday?

  There's all, like, how do you, how have you sort of charted through all these confusing, in some cases conflicting, you know, obligations and figured out like, this is what's right, this is what I'm going to do. Cause it, it definitely feels like there's been a chunk of people who are just not even dealing with it at all and they're, they have, you know, there's denial about it, there's some people who are sort of heartless about it, then there's other people who are just sort of like, well, I'm just going to go off in my bubble and, you know, wait for this, come back when life is normal. Like, how have you done that?

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Well, I think, and it isn't the first time we've been in a crisis. I mean, you know, crisis is a weird thing because it can center you and focus you. And, you know, you kind of almost advance through this, like, through the, through fire. I mean, you, you, you purify your intentions. I mean, I think during normal times, it's easy to just, you know, think a lot of, everything's important and you're just having fun, you're just doing whatever, whatever. And you don't even realize you're doing it. And then all of a sudden, crisis hits and you have to choose only a few things you can take with you. And what are those? And it ends up being this really important time in your life, even if it's the hardest time in your life. And so I do think, I mean, I love your book, Stillness is the Key, because I, I have always, you know,

• 30:59Speaker 01

  I think that stillness, just stopping, is important in times of crisis where you can just kind of get a look of the landscape, pause, know what your resources are, know where you're at, and, and begin to start to imagine what a vision could be. And I think that's one of the ways that we've been able to, to sort of manage through this is just by, just by taking an absolute, just a look, truthful look at everything that's happening, as truthfully as we possibly can with all the information that we have. But I also will always go back to, in my company, the idea of fellowship. And probably before Stoicism and all of the ancients, you know, my philosophy really comes from fantasy and science fiction. And I always just say, people ask me, like, a lot of times, what my favorite business book is. And I say, it's the Lord of the Rings movies.

• 31:44Ryan Holiday?

  Okay.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  So it's just, I mean, I, I love this idea of fellowship. And, and so many of my, I think, the things that sort of kept me going when I was, you know, younger and starting out, I didn't have, haven't, hadn't earned my awesome team yet, is just that sort of, those ideas of, you know, that come from things like Tolkien, or even like Star Wars and Star Trek, of course. But fellowship for me is about, everybody brings their awesomeness in, their full, whole selves, their, their, just their, their everything to the table. And then together, we create something that's, that's bigger than the sum of its parts. It's greater than the sum of its parts. And when I think about crisis, I think, well, all of a sudden, you just really solidify that fellowship. And that fellowship is starting to meet, like, now every day, where you might have met once a week

• 32:27Speaker 01

  or every two weeks before, that sort of, it's kind of like the leadership team, plus a few more people in my company. Um, but it's a small team of maybe six or eight people. And, um, and, and, and communication and being there and, and trusting each other and, and listening to each other and knowing that everybody's there for a very specific reason to fill this really important part of this mosaic, this fellowship that we are, um, in order to then move us forward because one person really can't do it. I love the word company because it means community, like you're not alone.

• 32:56Ryan Holiday?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  And, um, and so that I think at Jenny's is like the, the thing that really defines our company, I think, is this word fellowship, um, that everybody is important here and, uh, and that together we, we're not going to make, get everything perfect or everything right, but we're going to make decisions that we think are the best with the best people that we can, and then move forward and try them and do it and then reflect. So it's like that think, do, reflect circle that we're always in.

• 33:20Ryan Holiday?

  And I, I have to imagine, you know, so you, you get dealt with this thing where suddenly most of your stores can't open or can only open in limited capacity. The, obviously you probably had wanted some version of retail or sorry, of delivery, but maybe the opportunity in the crisis is, hey, now we, we have to speed up. Like friends of mine that have e-commerce businesses, it's like this basically sort of fast forwarded us through our five year plan. Like we had the idea of doing X, but it was unrealistic. It wasn't a high priority to, you know, open a second warehouse or expand this or that. And then suddenly sort of by necessity, you're forced to do a lot of change. And then you may, although as you said, you take a hit from it, you may actually emerge from it if you survive

• 34:05Ryan Holiday?

  in a better position than you were when you went in.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  For sure. And, um, I mean, we, we knew we were doing, we've been, we've had a website since 2004 and we've been, you know, we're probably the top shipper or one of the top in, of ice cream in the country. We're just, I mean, that's our busiest store by far and it's great, but like, we knew that that could be so much more. But, you know, even customers weren't necessarily ready, you know, even if we had done a ton of advertising, hey, guess what? We're, you know, did you know that you can order online? You know, even that isn't enough to get people to like do that, you know? And so in every way, and definitely with delivery in stores, we had been doing it, but kind of just a little bit at a time. It, it was like a, you know, just let's just dive in headfirst now and just go all in on this. And it, and it's been awesome. And so that the, the, it really

• 34:51Speaker 01

  will change the dynamics of our business and what's possible. Which is super, super cool because you can be a person that envisions the future and that's sort of playing that sort of, you know, projecting or telescoping into the future and you can find these, these moments you know are going to happen. But getting there sometimes, you know, you got, you have to get everybody along with you and that's, and that can take so long. But yeah, we've been super fast track. And I mean, one of the best places to look is education for that. I have a seventh and an eighth grader and, you know, who are, by the way, right now refusing to go to school. So I mean, we're dealing with that because they just think it's, it's, it's silly. And I'm not sure that I don't agree with them.

• 35:30Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  You know, um, you know, because it's like all of this memorization stuff. I mean, my daughter brought to me a quote from Einstein. I don't even, I haven't double checked this if it is Einstein, but she said that Einstein said that, you know, he never memorized something he could look up. And she's like, so why do I have to go to school? Well, I understand. But anyway, but yeah, it's fast tracking everything. We're all trying to figure it out, but I think we're going to end up in a better place because of it, hopefully.

• 35:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I, I was, I was thinking like just how, you know, obviously you have a company, my, my company's smaller than yours, but anytime you're in a position of leadership, you, it sort of gives you some sense of what it must be like to, to really be a leader, right? To like be a general or a head of state or even just like a mayor or a governor where you're like, you're having to make decisions that affect like, you know, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people. And I mean, I think one of the things that a lot of people have taken from the pandemic is just like, man, we have not been doing a good job selecting leaders. Like in every country across the world, like, you know what I mean? Like you probably count on, on one hand, like the number of leaders

• 36:36Ryan Holiday?

  that have really shined over the last seven, eight months. And so I was curious, I know, I know Jenny's went through like a sort of a, a health, anytime you're dealing with sort of live ingredients, there's going to be health concerns. I know you guys went through something a couple of years ago that it probably wasn't fun and, and, you know, I'm sure you learned a lot from. What did you take from that crisis as you now look at, you know, other companies and like whether it's the NFL or, or, you know, in this case, the White House that's struggling under a public health crisis? Like what have you learned about like, what do you do when like something goes wrong, whether it's your fault or someone else's fault, and you're dealing with sort of like hard, unpleasant?

• 37:21Ryan Holiday?

  Realities and a lot of know when options like what do you, what does someone do when you're the leader and you got to make those decisions?

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Well, I thought it was so interesting to see this unfold in front of all of us this year in the White House and, and you know, because I think we take things like leadership for granted. I mean, even I do, and I'm in leadership and I, you know, I, um, you know, you just, yeah, I mean, we just sort of take it for granted, but you know, really when it, when it, it's really about when you get into these places of crisis, what happens then and we are looking to our leaders so that we can, you know, humans just need to be able to create this story. We need to be able to have a vision of where we're going and we have, every one of us has a story about where we're heading, you know, and what we're doing and a story of ourselves. And when you lose that and I, um, you know, you really become untethered and that is so

• 38:15Speaker 01

  important, important inside of a company and of course, a country. And when you see our leaders sort of not getting it right, not making it easy for us to imagine how we are all working together and how we're all advancing forward together. You realize that that is just such an important, that that's really what leadership is. It's making this, it's building this sort of, making us all feel at ease on the path that we're on and what we're supposed to do today to get, you know, to advance us forward. And when we get all, you know, confused, then, then, then everybody starts, you know, trying to fill those gaps and, and do it. And then we all start butting heads and that's exactly where we're at now. I mean, everyone starts fighting everyone and, um, and it's no different in the company

• 38:56Speaker 01

  when we've been in crisis, um, you know, it's you, you have to project that you are, that you will take responsibility for this. And in taking responsibility, there is power, you know, you are, um, you're not going to get everything right, of course, but we are going to take responsibility for this and, um, and that means, um, we're going to fix it if, you know, if we can, and we're going to come together. So, you know, you come up with your process of this is what we're going to do. And then from there, you know, you're not going to fix everything the first round, but from there you start to swerve forward as you continue to tweak and continue to fix things together. But I think it's communication and you can communicate in so many ways, obviously with

• 39:41Speaker 01

  words, um, but also in your actions and setting the standard, um, of behavior that you want everyone around you to, to, to hold. And I think those are so, so important. Really building trust in your team or in, you know, in our country's case, just in the country, building trust is probably the most important thing. And how do you do that? Well, you do that through being open and transparent and you're communicating and then showing what you expect from others and just being that, right?

• 40:11Ryan Holiday?

  I think you're totally right. It's the first off, the leader, and I've been thinking about this because Marcus Aurelius is emperor during the Antonine Plague. It's like the leader first steps up, but then the leader has to communicate like, here's where we are, sort of unflinchingly and realistically, not magical thinking bullshit, but like, this is what it is. And then you have to say, and here's where we want to go. And then here's our, you know, as of this moment, plan for getting from here to there. And you're going to change and be, you know, make mistakes and go down blind alleys along the way. But like, here's, here's our plan. And it's like, we want everyone to get on this bus with us. And I think what we're, what we're seeing in America, which is such,

• 40:56Ryan Holiday?

  again, whatever your political views are, I think it's a good lesson. It's the American system was kind of supposed to be this decentralized system where everyone's kind of doing their own thing. But it was supposed to be kind of tied together with some sort of common vision. And when that common vision falls apart, it's not that everyone does their own thing. It's that a lot of the things people are doing are in direct conflict with other people's. So it's not like, hey, we're all going in separate cars to the same destination. It's that we're in cars crashing into each other, because we don't know where we're going. And I think that that must be so frustrating, too, as a business owner, where it's like, in one state, it's this, in another state, it's this. And it's, you may actually

• 41:39Ryan Holiday?

  agree with the strictness in one state, but you also see the pointlessness of it because the other state is not being strict. And so the virus is just moving from one place to another. I think that's what's been hard for me. It's like, I feel like I'm doing, I know I'm doing the right thing. And I know I'm keeping my family safe. And I know I've made the right business decisions despite what it's cost me. But then it's, it's really hard to stick with that when you see the futility of it, because, you know, your neighbor is, let's say, not under the same obligation.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Yep, and just, you know, even just getting through those different, the regulations, rules, protocols in different cities, there's also, everything has become politicized. I mean, Right. So, we are, we are wearing masks, we are in our stores, we are under high, like, absolute safety. In fact, when the, when the pandemic hit, for the first time in the history of our company, we actually changed our mission until we get through this, which I think is also important when you're in crisis. In my other crisis, we actually didn't have to change our mission. We just got super focused on it. The idea of bringing people together and making better ice creams, the idea of better informs everything we do, blah, blah, blah. So, in this crisis, in the pandemic, we changed it to, you know,

• 42:55Speaker 01

  absolute safety, keeping our customers, our communities, and our team safe. And that meant everything from like checking up on people we work with, to, to how there are protocols in our stores and all of that. But then the other part of our mission is to survive this, right? So, so we can be, we can be a different company now as we, as we move through this crisis than we were before. But the problem is, we can do the best we can, follow science, just try to hold on to that. But when we have customers coming in, wondering why they have to wear masks, and really getting angry about it. And I've got twenty year olds or eighteen year olds working the counter who have no real way of, of enforcing it, or, you know, I mean, and they're feeling scared because

• 43:39Speaker 01

  they're getting mixed messages and they don't have, you know, this is a very complicated thing. That is something that does not have to exist. We can Right. have respect and trust for each other, that like, no one is trying to, you know, this eighteen year old in the store is not trying to project a political message to you because she's wearing a mask. It's, it's, we, this is what we've decided as a company because we are just trying to do our best. And even if it ends up, we didn't have to do that, well, at least we were overkilling it. That's great. But do we have to get to this place where we are accusing everyone and whatever? That's the hardest part because we're all over the country and in various places, it doesn't matter what we do, whether we put up a Black Lives Matter poster, or we don't, or whether we wear a mask or whether we don't, or whether we say all Black Lives Matter, or whether we don't. There is just

• 44:22Speaker 01

  so many ways that we can really honestly hate each other. And it's just, it, it really feels like people are coming from this place of just boiling over. Anger that's verging on hatred. And I feel like that's so scary. And we have to, each one of us, figure out how to bring that, how to, how to, how to, I don't know, bring that, bring us back together and reduce that and bring back a place of love, I think, for each other and trust.

• 44:45Ryan Holiday?

  It, it is, it's tough, right? Because you see, yeah, you, you, you understand that that those feelings probably come from a place of pain, but then you also can't excuse what's happening. I, I know something I struggle with, I'd be curious your thoughts is like, and, and you must just have such a larger sample size, right? Because you have, you know, your foot track, like, like, my books have sold well throughout the pandemic, but I don't, I don't actually interact with those people, right? Like, the books just sell. And sometimes I hear from them and like, sometimes I see their nasty comments on social media, but like, I'm not, I'm not, they're not like coming through my house, you know, in the way that like, your stores, people are coming in them. How have you, you seem

• 45:28Ryan Holiday?

  like a cheerful, happy, sort of loving person. How have you protected your sort of fondness for people when you are probably dealing with more than the average person, the, the sort of Karen having a meltdown in the middle of a store because a, because an 18-year-old college student politely asked her to put her mask on if she's going to order ice cream? Like, how, how have you not, how have you not lost your faith in humanity? I, I'd really like to know.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Well, so this goes back to my very first job, actually. I mean, I'd, I had been working in my neighborhood, doing odd jobs for people for a long time. But when I was 15, I got a job. I always knew I was going to work in an ice cream shop. I don't know why, but I just did. I always wanted that job. And then one happened to open in my neighborhood within walking distance when I was 15 years old. So I got a work permit, and I started working there on the first day that they opened. And I was extremely shy. I had moved almost every year growing up. I was very quiet. And even though I wanted a job, and even though I was like, really excited to get it, I was, and I, and I went and I did the interview and I got the job. I was terrified to go. And my mother said to me, she said, do you know that Meryl Streep is really shy and very, very quiet? And I was like, Meryl Streep? Like, the actress? You know? And I was like, well, gosh,

• 46:41Speaker 01

  if she can do it, then I can do it. So as I was walking to work that day, I remember just putting, just being like, okay, I'm going to decide what like the best ice cream scooper. You know, in the world, how they would behave and who they are, whatever I'm gonna put on that character. And so I went to work and I did that. And it changed my life. Because now I could see myself in a totally different point of view. I could put my ego aside, my ego being the thing that protects me, right? And that that creates fear and anxiety for me. I could put that aside and just channel love and the things that I believe I wanted to experience on the other side of the counter. And so that's really changed everything about everything that I do. I mean, from then on, I started getting better at public speaking. I mean, it still took a really long time,

• 47:23Speaker 01

  but a few years later, I started, you know, teaching soap making classes at a conservatory. Like, I was just trying to get over public speaking, but really pushing myself because I could sort of put on a character a little bit and put my ego aside. And I just kept going. By the time I was twenty two, I opened my first ice cream shop. And so and I think that really, this is one of the reasons why I really like that perspective of service. And and part of that is is turning someone around and or going through that storm with them. If they want to come in and be like, you know, and and express some of their anxieties and fears right now through, I don't know, treating me badly or whatever, I can kind of go through that with them, but it doesn't have to affect me. And actually, maybe by the end of this, by the time I go to ring you up on the cash register or or say goodbye to you, maybe I've changed you a little bit. It's a really important part of my work.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  And actually, I think the thing that I'm probably the most good at, I'm probably the best at it out of everything that I do. I mean, I even when I make ice cream, I make it from the perspective of service. And and I think all people who create, all creator, all people who create things do it from a place of of no ego. You know what I mean? Like, you take, I don't think of ego necessarily as the thing that, like, I think I'm better than everybody else, but more like the thing that's like, is pushing me or wanting me to behave as, you know, like, it's almost the thing that's more causing anxiety for me or or making it impossible for me to go forward. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's that sort of ego that I have to let go of. And then from there, you're it's just about flowing and getting into that flow of making people feel good. And so anyway, so that's a long answer to your question, but it is, it's about putting ego aside, I

• 48:52Speaker 01

  think, and doing the thing that I know I'm really good at. And that is like transferring good energy to people and like, just trying to be a good moment in somebody else's life. It's almost more like a preacher, I think, than than an ice cream maker. But but it's something that I learned when I was very young. And I am, I think that I'm good at it because I came from a place of honestly struggled before then. And I think that's what made me really actually enjoy it.

• 49:16Ryan Holiday?

  I think one of the things we're bad at is like, understanding like, large numbers. So, and Marcus really talks about this in meditations, because like, you know, is a world without shameless people possible? No. And he's like, okay, so you've met a shameless person, like, you know that a certain number of them exists. Like, why is it surprising you that you deal with one? And I think one of the things, it's like, I think we want everyone to be like us. I don't mean like, the same as us, we just want, we want everyone to not be a cruel, mean, you know, unhinged person. And so, when we deal with one of those people, it's really hard for us to sort of back out and go, how many people have I encountered in the course of my life, or even the course of my day?

• 50:00Ryan Holiday?

  Right? Like, when I see, when I get a really nasty email from someone, my mind doesn't go, okay, but how many books do you think you've sold? How many books do you think you've sold today? How many positive interactions did you have with readers that, that weren't insane? So they didn't send you this nasty note? Okay, so one of them got through to you and sent you something mean. You have to be able to sort of see it in the context of the larger whole. So I've got to imagine too, like, even with the mask thing, I think from a me, bad actors play well in the media. The 80 to 90% of people who are being smart, are following the rules, are treating this seriously,

• 50:43Ryan Holiday?

  are concerned for, you know, not spreading, or hurting, or negatively impacting someone else. They sort of recede into the background. And I've got to imagine, yeah, in the last eight months, you know, hundreds of thou, you've, you've done hundreds of thousands of customer exchanges slash transactions. The vast, vast majority of them would give you hope in humanity, but it's our mind gloms on to the one nasty person, and then we go, oh, why are all human beings so terrible?

• 51:14Speaker 01

  You know, it's, I mean, really, it's true. And, um, and you think, yeah, you get one email and it throws everything off. I, I, Absolutely, and you know, we, I always tell people that like if you want to feel good, just come stand in one of our lines at our stores because everyone in our world is just really, they're just generally good people and I've made friends with people in line. I've heard from other people who've made friends with people in line. I've heard people who've gotten married because they met in line and they've got married at our store. I mean, so there's, so it really is true that we are creating a world. And when you, and I think of sometimes like the idea of entrepreneurship is building your own world. You get to make your own rules and you know, you're united by your values and you know, you get to like create your own sort of place where it's supposed to have, you know, where it feels a very specific way and that's what we're doing.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  And that is the success of, of, of our company and what we can be proud of is that when you walk into our place, our realm, that it feels a certain way and that most, most people feel that way and, and get it and are, and are contributing to it because our customers are as much a part of that as, as anything that we do to make it that way. But I also too, I feel that like, you know, when I see people who are really just not comfortable in the world, you know, you have to be able to like envision who you want to become in order to become it and you have to be able to see that somewhere in front of you. And I think a lot of people, you know, when you really start working in your community, you realize that not everybody has access to really good people in their lives.

• 52:40Ryan Holiday?

  Or information.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Or information, or that acts just, I mean, I, I really do think that, that a lot of these people have been, or the person that's the most important in their life, the biggest, whatever in their life, that is, is just not getting it or whatever, you know, so they've been influenced by some kind of, you know, a mom or a dad or somebody in their life that has taken them to other places. You really have to, they have to, you have to be able to see that in order to become it. And I think a lot of times when people are really just so broken and I, and every once in a while, somebody like that will come through my life and I can only just feel love for that person. And so I think no matter what it is, you know, even somebody who is. You know, out just, uh, just, you know, the sort of ugly business person, you know?

• 53:26Speaker 01

  You just think like, gosh, you know, I'm so, I am so grateful that I have, that I come from a place of joy and that everything I do is looking for joy and not money, you know, or not the things, the materialistic things that don't matter, but those moments of joy and that comes from humans and people and, you know, whatever. And maybe there's a way that I can help them understand that, or maybe not, you know?

• 53:45Ryan Holiday?

  Last question for you. What went through your mind? As I've had a few of these moments in my life, it's, it's always weird and unexpected. Like, uh, last week, I got an email that I was a clue on Jeopardy.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  I saw that.

• 54:00Ryan Holiday?

  I mean, that's nothing compared to, I guess, was it two nights ago, although the people will be listening to this much later, the leading presidential candidate for the United States tweeted that he was eating, a picture of him eating Jenny's ice cream. And then if that weren't enough, Luke Skywalker retweeted it and asked where he might get some. How do you, how do, how do you even begin to process something like that after all the work that you've put in over the last quarter century to get where you are?

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so funny. And also I'll add that it was my birthday. So,

• 54:35Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, incredible.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  It's really fun. Well, no, I, I am actually, um, I, I know Joe Biden. I, um, I know him because he loves ice cream and because obviously we're going to know each other.

• 54:46Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, yeah. He loves ice cream cones, right? Like, all the pictures are him leaning on a Corvette, eating an ice cream cone.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Right. With his aviators. Um, no, he, he really loves ice cream. And I would say that like, you know, while a lot of, I imagine a lot of politicians, you know, are sending a lot of whiskey around the country and things, um, Joe Biden is sending ice cream. And he just, um, he's just an ice cream guy. And so everywhere he goes, he meets the ice cream makers, which is so great and so cool. And so I met him a long time ago here in Columbus. He came, of course, to my ice cream shop and we've kept in touch. He's been, I've, I've seen him several, many, many times. Um, since then, we've become kind of friends in ice cream and, um, and I think in doing good in the world, honestly. Um, I've written for him about fellowship before. We have similar, um, views on many, many things. And , uh, so I'm very close with his team and, um, and so on. And so that was really cool.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  It was just so, so incredible and so cool. And, um, and I think that, um, you know, I just think that like, if Joe Biden becomes president and, uh, and even if he doesn't, honestly, ice cream has a role to play in bringing us back together. And, um, And I just, not just my, all ice cream, you know, and so I just can imagine, I can imagine like all the ice cream makers in America throwing the biggest ice cream social to just say, hey, you know, whatever happens in January, we are, we're, let's come back together as people and love each other and ice cream can do that. And so that kind of stuff, I mean, that's just kind of where, I mean, I just started thinking like ice cream, I don't know, you know, ice cream is, is just such a silly little thing, but it also isn't, you know, it's like a thing that's been with us for so long. And it's about each of us

• 56:19Speaker 01

  as individuals choosing the flavor, you know, the, what, what, one thing I love about ice cream is that the word flavor, if you look it up in the dictionary, actually means character, it means the essential character of something. So I love the like, you know, all of these little, you know, things that you can, just little stories you can weave through ice cream, you know, that it's like sort of, it's a metaphor for life, it can pull you into the moment because you have to be with it and pay attention, otherwise it disappears in front of you. Right. And then also this idea of character and flavor, like, you know, you're choosing this flavor, this character, and it really is sort of a little bit about who you are, and then you're sharing it with someone else. So all of that makes me feel very hopeful about the future. And I know it's just ice cream, but I think the bigger picture is hopefully as humans, we will naturally come to this place and figure out

• 57:03Speaker 01

  a way to share our stories and our flavor or our character together, you know?

• 57:08Ryan Holiday?

  No, I look, I love it. I love hearing that so much. I was, I was thinking about, like, one of those weird memory I have, I would, I got to meet Richard Overton before he died, who was at one point the oldest man in the United States, and he would sit on his porch and eat ice cream and talk to people. And there's a, there's a, there's a sort of a, you know, like a good grandpa energy to ice cream of like, hey, do you want to go get, like, because parents don't want to take their kids to get ice cream because they get all amped up and it's, they want to put them to bed. But so there's a grandpa energy to ice cream where it's like, let's go do something that's fun, one generation, like reaching over and pass through to it, you know, over a generation to the younger

• 57:49Ryan Holiday?

  generation. There's just like a wholesomeness and a goodness to it that I think, so I don't think it's, I don't think it's absurd what you're saying. I think there is kind of a weird hope and innocence to, yeah, the guy in Aviators looking at ice cream cone.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  There's this idea that ice cream makes it better. And we always say Jenny's makes it better because it's like, if you win or if you lose, ice cream can make it better. And that's like so much part of it. But I also like, I would just say, um, next time you get ice cream and any for anybody who's listening, first of all, get it on a cone, if you can, scoop it on a cone, because that is, um, I think that the, the, eating a cone is, it makes you a little bit vulnerable, especially if you're sitting in front of somebody and they're eating a cone too. It's actually like a really interesting moment. You know, you have to be with it. You have to engage it. It does pull you into the moment a little bit. But what's going to happen is the ice cream is going to be a little harder as you start eating it and, and the flavor is going to develop as you go. And as actually as the ice cream sort of warms, it's really perfectly suited to melt on your palate. Like butterfat melts below body temperatures is perfect thing. So just imagine like how

• 58:50Speaker 01

  it's unfurling scent. But when you get about halfway through the cone, it's going to be at just the perfect temperature where you're going to have this like really sort of exploding, sort of blooming flavor and also this lush texture of the cream. So next time you eat ice cream and you're going to have a little bit of percussion from the cone at that point and all this stuff is going to come together. It's going to be amazing. Next time you have ice cream, pull yourself in the moment to experience what you're having and what you're going through, because it's every sense that you have. It's just all of you're using all of your senses. And it is one of the most incredible pleasures. And I think sometimes we just think, oh, it's just ice cream. We'll go get it. We'll get our mint chocolate chip and go. And you don't really think about it. But if you really do sort of focus on it, it's magical. It like, it almost shouldn't exist. It's a frozen, but it's not frozen.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  It's solid, but it's not solid. And it's just this incredible moment. So, and now I'm going to go get ice cream. But, um,

• 59:39Ryan Holiday?

  No, I love it. So I, that was, that was poetic.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  It's more than what you think.

• 59:43Ryan Holiday?

  I appreciate it so much.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  You know, or maybe it's just, but no, I really do think that ice cream is more than, more than what maybe what we've thought recently about it.

• 59:49Ryan Holiday?

  You're totally right. Jenny, thanks.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. This has been so much fun.

• 59:54Ryan Holiday?

  If you like the podcast that we do here and you want to get it via email every morning, you can sign up at dailystoic.com/email.