The Dating Experiment Designed to Change Your Life feat. Amy Chan

If you’re single (and don’t want to be), this episode is for you. We are joined once again by relationship coach and bestselling author Amy Chan ahead of her new book, Un-Single: How to Date Smarter and Create Love That Lasts. Amy believes that most people are only one or two shifts away from being in a healthy relationship, and her expertise will help you figure out what your shifts are. She walks us through the five parts of the dating funnel, tips for meeting more dateable people, and how to conduct her brilliant dating experiment to meet your match (trust us, it works). We also talk about the primary way people sabotage their own dating lives, why we obsess over people who aren’t reciprocating (aka the “bread crumb diet”), how to be more magnetic, and an easy pre-date ritual so you don’t show up with negative energy. Before Amy joins us, we’re talking about Type A and Type B travel personalities when it comes to packing, unpacking, hotel room cleanliness, and more. Enjoy! Follow Amy on Instagram @missamychan and get her new book Un-Single. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for live show tickets and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Aura Frames: Get 25% off the best selling Carver Mat frame at https://auraframes.com with code GGE. Revolve: Get 15% off your first order at https://revolve.com/gge with code GGE. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Most people are only one to two shifts away from being able to create a healthy relationship.

• 0:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  I know that sounds wild.

• 0:07Rayna Greenberg?

  It's really hopeful.

• 0:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Ease.

• 0:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome back.

• 0:31Rayna Greenberg?

  You whipped your head up.

• 0:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Was I looking down?

• 0:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, is that what we're doing now? Recording our episode.

• 0:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was just.

• 0:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, we're doing that.

• 0:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm getting settled in. Can't be whipping your head around too much at this age.

• 0:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, yeah. This morning I had a cramp in my ankle and I was like, I can't.

• 0:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's over.

• 0:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm gonna go down. I'm gonna cancel my Denver shows.

• 0:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Literally just sitting the wrong way for five minutes. My leg is broken. I forgot deodorant today.

• 0:58Rayna Greenberg?

  You did.

• 0:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just like never do. I just feel like musty.

• 1:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Sometimes I think I'm better than that and then I'm like, oh, I'm not.

• 1:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know.

• 1:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I need deodorant.

• 1:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I have a travel deodorant and like a deodorant that I keep in my bathroom. So it's like, I've never like, oh, it's in my suitcase and it's always in my face is my point. It's always on the counter.

• 1:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. Do you have, I have two sets of everything. I have just like a travel bag of just like toiletries.

• 1:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:20Rayna Greenberg?

  I have two sets of everything.

• 1:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  I have two sets of some things, but I, there's points where I'm like, Ashley, you can afford it. Like just buy literally the same thing. Buy the hair oil, buy the face moisturizer. What am I doing sometimes? But two toothbrushes, two toothpaste, two flosses, two deodorants. Like there's some stuff that always stays in the travel bag. And then other times I'm like, why am I moving this back and forth?

• 1:43Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just, it is the height of luxury for me. Every time I replace something, I replace the big size and the travel size. It's like, that's how I feel like I, I know that I've made it. Like I don't have to steal toilet paper from my parents' house anymore. And I have two sets of everything. You and I just travel too much. I can't be like unpacking a toiletry bag every time.

• 2:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, it just, it saves you time. Time is money.

• 2:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Packing is my least, you have, I have a fucking meltdown every time I pack.

• 2:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like I'm getting worse.

• 2:08Rayna Greenberg?

  A packing? Oh, I'm getting better.

• 2:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I am always on point with what I pack.

• 2:11Rayna Greenberg?

  You are.

• 2:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's taking me longer.

• 2:13Rayna Greenberg?

  What do you think attributes to that?

• 2:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know. Being more neurotic. I am getting more neurotic as I age.

• 2:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Really?

• 2:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Don't, don't pander. You know I'm neurotic.

• 2:22Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I thought you hit the top and you were just there.

• 2:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 2:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Stop. I thought we were just at the top. I actually think you've become much more chilled out in the last 10 years. I think that you have just mellowed out.

• 2:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I still fixate on stuff.

• 2:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, you hyper fixate.

• 2:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, hyper fixate. And so packing, like, I don't know. I just, I used to be a little quicker.

• 2:49Rayna Greenberg?

  I will say, I don't, I genuinely mean this from the bottom of my heart. I don't know how people, this is such a single person thing to say, I don't know how people pack with somebody else in the house. You and I and Shashank went out to dinner the other night and you were like, I haven't packed yet. And you guys sent me this photo because you had to leave in the morning. And your bed was covered and stuff. And like, it sent a chill down my spine. I don't know how people pack with a, like, when I see somebody in my house, I think playtime. I think drinking time. I think let's be silly. Let's watch TV. Let's take a nap. Let's have sex. Like, I don't think, let me buckle down and try on foot. I don't know how you do it.

• 3:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  I have to do all the unfun stuff with him. He's there.

• 3:27Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't know. I just, I, you are so much stronger than me. Like, Brittany wanted it. So Brittany, this will have been a week ago at this point, but Brittany is coming to Denver, Phoenix with me for my shows. And she was like, Friday morning after Phoenix, I think I'm gonna fly to LA to get some stuff done. Can I stay at your place? And I was like, I have to pack on Saturday. You can't stay.

• 3:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  You can't be around for this?

• 3:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm not interested in house guests because I leave, I come back for two days and you and I leave for another five days. And then I come back for a couple of days and I leave for like eight days after that.

• 3:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:55Rayna Greenberg?

  No, it's, I'm not open to house guests.

• 3:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, a couple of things here. We will put that pic up on the screen. You guys can watch on YouTube or Spotify. It was also a lot of laundry. So this is really where I get myself into a pickle, is where I'm like, have done a bunch of laundry before a trip, and then I have to bring all the, all of the clean clothes are there. And then I'm like, do I actually have time to put all this stuff away and pack? And it is mayhem.

• 4:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 4:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I guess I'll give you a little insight into our relationship. So.

• 4:22Rayna Greenberg?

  I guess you'll tell me something.

• 4:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, last year, I mean, Shashank moved in and then a few months later, I started touring and I'm packing all the time. And he will usually lay in the bed and he'll be scrolling or on his computer doing stuff while I am packing. So we're like spending time together. I mean, there were times where I was coming. Home leaving right again. So he helps me pick out stuff. I really rely on him. Yes, I really rely on him. I do value his opinion for sure, but also just like, just having something to run stuff by. Like, do you like the way this looks? Like,

• 4:53Rayna Greenberg?

  All I have is my Instagram audience.

• 4:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, exactly. So he is a real value add when I'm packing for stuff and I really do value his opinion. It's also just nice to have somebody there to work stuff out to an audience.

• 5:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I totally agree. I do want somebody to be like, this looks good, this doesn't. One time Brittany and her boyfriend were gonna stay over overnight that one day and I was like, you can't be here. You can't be here while I'm packing. It's just when I'm packing for like seven days, like so much goes into it. I'm having a meltdown. I have gotten a lot better. I mean, I have spent like four hours packing.

• 5:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Raina, it's taking hours.

• 5:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it takes hours.

• 5:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  To pack, I did that 11 day trip and the first weekend I was with my family and then it was New York and I'm just like, what events do I have? What media stuff do I have? What stuff can I re-wear? What stuff am I gonna wash in Delaware? And workouts and shoes and jackets. But I brought three jackets. Like I just, and do you ever do this? I thought I was gonna bring my smaller checked bag. Not, it's not small. It's still a big checked bag. And then everything's going in. There's still so much stuff on the bed. You're like, I was sorely mistaken. Then you have to go get the giant suitcase.

• 5:59Rayna Greenberg?

  This happens to me every trip.

• 6:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  I hate bringing that giant suitcase. It's, it's 55 pounds and it's really difficult to maneuver.

• 6:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, sometimes you have a man with you to help you. I'm, I just, well, I guess when I'm on the road, I have a man with me. But I gotta do that by myself. It's so hard.

• 6:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know how you do it. I can't thank our partners.

• 6:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Actually, this comes at a great time. I would love to thank Revolve because that is the only thing I pack it. Sometimes when I go to New York, I'm like, I won't even pack anything. I'll just send Revolve. So thanks to Revolve, get 15% off your first order at revolve.com/gge with code GGE.

• 6:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to Aura Frames. Get 25% off the best selling carber mat frame at auraframes.com with code GGE. Yes, when we talk later about Revolve, I want to circle back to just their incredible customer service.

• 6:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Nothing's better.

• 6:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  How incredible they are. Yeah. So I'm curious if you guys like to pack alone or if you like to have an audience.

• 6:46Rayna Greenberg?

  It's, it's hours.

• 6:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I can't, I just used to be so much more willy nilly like, do you remember traveling in your twenties? Get home drunk and pack.

• 6:56Rayna Greenberg?

  So I use packing cubes, which you can buy on Amazon for like $20. They're all labeled. I have like pants, shirts, like pajamas, whatever. I didn't, I discovered packing cubes a couple of years ago. And the other day I was going to New York and I was like, I don't have time for packing cubes. I just threw everything in the bag. How the fuck did I used to do that? Everything is just in the suitcase.

• 7:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 7:16Rayna Greenberg?

  You pull out one thing, everything's everywhere.

• 7:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  So this is a major difference between Raina and I.

• 7:20Rayna Greenberg?

  You don't use packing cubes?

• 7:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't use packing cubes, but that's not what I'm talking about. I unpack in full when I get to the hotel. And we stay at the standard, it's a tiny closet. I have figured it out. Like I know where the shoes go, where every shelf, what hangs, there's not that many hangers.

• 7:37Rayna Greenberg?

  You've gamed the closet.

• 7:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  The second I get to the hotel, my rule is usually more than three nights. I'm unpacking in full.

• 7:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 7:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Three nights, maybe. I might live out my suitcase for three nights, but four plus nights, I fully unpack. I move in.

• 7:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I, okay, I have two questions. You're more Raina's friend, Ash's friend. It's crazy because I'm so type A in my house. It looks like no one lives there. I had a realtor come photograph it. He's like, this house looks staged. Like no one lives here. I was like, that's on purpose. That's by design. The way my hotel room looks, if I am there for 15 minutes, I've never unpacked a day in my life. You're lucky if I hang a coat up. It looks like a fucking bomb went off.

• 8:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Explode all over.

• 8:18Rayna Greenberg?

  And I don't know how I do it, but it's like, stuff is everywhere. It's not dirty. There's not like dishes and makeup everywhere, but short of that, there is stuff wall to wall, hanging from the ceiling.

• 8:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's really stresses me out, you guys. Like every time I have to walk in Raina's room, I have to like get myself a pep talk. Like it's gonna be bad in there. It's gonna be triggering. It's gonna look like a teenager's bedroom while they're going through a meltdown.

• 8:37Rayna Greenberg?

  One time I posted a photo of my, like a selfie, one of our girlfriends was like, whoa, your hotel room. And I was like, that's clean. I, I think sometimes like if I brought a guy back here, like what they would think.

• 8:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think a lot of people do this. I think a lot of people check into a hotel room and fucking explode all over it. I can't do it. I keep it tight, keep it right. I just, I unpack. I like to keep it tidy. I, cause I don't like to think about what it's gonna take to gather all that stuff together and put it back in the suitcase. But I just like to, really weirdly like to live like I live at home in that hotel room and you don't. You're really, you're treating yourself.

• 9:12Rayna Greenberg?

  I fly by the seat of my pants and that. It's crazy. You can so unlike me, but I have my follow question. When you get back from a trip, when do you unpack?

• 9:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Immediately or three weeks later.

• 9:23Rayna Greenberg?

  But a lot of the times, which one?

• 9:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Three weeks is exaggeration, but it's immediately or could be up to

• 9:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  five days.

• 9:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. What's the decider?

• 9:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know whether I have the strength. So my suitcase is sitting there now. We got back on Sunday. It's a Tuesday. I'll probably do it tomorrow.

• 9:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 9:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Probably a two, three day is my average.

• 9:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Toiletries? Like you take those out of?

• 9:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  The toiletries I take out.

• 9:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Where do you put the suitcase?

• 9:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  On the floor.

• 9:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Upstairs or downstairs?

• 9:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's in my bedroom. I have a pretty big bedroom.

• 10:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Your main bedroom or your second bedroom? Like in your joint bedroom where you guys share?

• 10:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  In front of the fireplace. I have the, that's my side of the room. No, we have a big bedroom.

• 10:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 10:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  When my West Hollywood house, I could not, my bedroom was so tiny. The suitcase didn't fit in the room with me. I had to pack like in the dining room. So I would come home and I would do it immediately, but I've always been this like, I do it immediately or it doesn't get done and it's gonna get done when it gets done. And sometimes the worst is when you have another trip and you haven't unpacked from the trip. Like, and you are like, I have a suitcase on the floor and now I got another suitcase on the floor.

• 10:34Rayna Greenberg?

  This has never happened to me. I-

• 10:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. Yeah. What do you?

• 10:36Rayna Greenberg?

  No matter the time of day, it can be 11 o'clock at night, maybe after 10 PM. I don't, but I walk in the door and I unpack and I have to-

• 10:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Really? How are we this different with this stuff?

• 10:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't know. We do laundry really differently also, which we will circle back to, but like my suitcase is huge. It's 55 pounds and I have to open it up downstairs. Take out each packing cube, carry them up in shifts.

• 10:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. You're not, you don't carry the suitcase upstairs?

• 10:59Rayna Greenberg?

  No, but like I carry it up in shifts, which is even crazier at like 10pm.

• 11:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 11:03Rayna Greenberg?

  The hour of the day, I unpack, I put the stuff in the laundry. If I don't do it the minute I get home, I'm up at like six in the morning the next day. And like, I like the ritual of it. I like that it's early in the morning. I put everything away. I do the laundry. I put everything back where it's supposed to be. Put the suitcases back. Like, it weighs on me. I can feel the suitcase in my house.

• 11:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  I hate it. I hate that it's sitting there right now. But sometimes it just sits there for a couple of days. I just don't feel like dealing with it.

• 11:29Rayna Greenberg?

  It's not an emergency. I don't really need the stuff.

• 11:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  I trip over it. Why am I doing this? I stubbed my toe before.

• 11:35Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't know. Some, our, our friend Sally, she was like, I, as a rule, don't unpack for a week. And she's the most type A person that I've ever met.

• 11:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just like all these differences. Like, the fact that like I get into a hotel room and immediately unpack and settle in, and my suitcase will be in my home for days on the floor.

• 11:52Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, the way you do laundry also is so different. I mean, I just learned about separating whites and colors.

• 11:58Rayna Greenberg?

  The way I hang stuff to dry, I just throw it over a railing wherever. Sometimes I hang it on a doorknob.

• 12:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Stuff to dry. That's an improvement.

• 12:06Rayna Greenberg?

  After I shrunk a $300 pair of jeans twice.

• 12:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 12:09Rayna Greenberg?

  And I had to buy it a third time. I mean, I'm exaggerating. It's $258. I, I was like, never again.

• 12:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Okay, that was the thing that changed. The sweatpants jeans. Yeah, they shrink like crazy. Okay, well, let us know if you got, I don't even know what this says about us. Like, some stuff is type A, some stuff is type B. You know what I'm loving is the TikTok trends of like my type B friend doing something. So two that I've seen that sent a chill down my spine were my type B friend painting her room. And it's crazy. She hasn't covered anything. She's just climbing on top of the dresser, like painting. She's like, just pouring the paint.

• 12:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Off. That, that's been me before.

• 12:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then doing her own nails that, on her wedding day.

• 12:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Actually, it chilled down my spine.

• 12:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God. I can't imagine, like, I felt really rushed and there were certain things I could have gotten ahead of on my wedding day and it was a regret of mine and there was, there was some things I was like, I just should have thought of that before. But the nails, to be painting your nails, oh my god. And then like, what if they smudge or they're not fully dry? Like, I haven't painted my nails in so many years, I get gel manicures, but like, wedding day, you're painting your nails, oh my god.

• 13:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I think you did your wedding day right, you were like, I'm gonna enjoy this day. I can't, I need everything else to be taken care of. Okay, the last thing I will tell you about unpacking in a hotel room is, I don't even know if you know this about me, I don't have the maid service come in if my room looks like that, so I'm not gonna set a bunch of obstacles up around the room and make the room gross and be like, you clean it up. Like, I will keep the do not disturb sign on and you like somebody to come in every single day.

• 13:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Every single day, that's why I'm there.

• 13:41Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't care.

• 13:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  It is my best life, that I leave the hotel in the morning and I go work and like, clockwork, the bed is made, they don't do a lot. Like, the room's pretty clean, they, they make the bed, they might replace some towels and take the trash, if there's any trash, and like, that's it. I think I'm a pretty quick turn on the housekeeping, but I, that is one of the reasons I'm in the hotel, is for the housekeeping.

• 14:04Rayna Greenberg?

  The first thing I do every morning is make my bed, it's, I mean, immediately, no matter how tired I am, instantly make my bed. A hotel, it'll never be made.

• 14:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  I didn't used to care, and now I really care, and like, really nice places that do turn down service.

• 14:19Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm like, why are you in here?

• 14:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my god, to come back after a full day and the bed's been made again.

• 14:27Rayna Greenberg?

  I'll go three days without maid service.

• 14:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  No!

• 14:30Rayna Greenberg?

  And I know where you're paying, day four, you gotta get, you run out of towels.

• 14:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Again, to your point, like, you're paying a premium to stay anywhere in New York, for example.

• 14:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, I'm gonna tell you one final, well, this isn't like about travel, but this was the impetus for me doing this. I am so excited to announce this, I put a privacy screen on my phone.

• 14:53Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't believe I've lived forty years rolling around just letting anybody look at my phone.

• 15:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's crazy.

• 15:03Rayna Greenberg?

  It's so crazy. I, and what, so this guy that I've been traveling with for my tour, he has a privacy screen on his phone and we sit next to each other at the airport a lot. I know. And I'm like, I want to see what's on that phone.

• 15:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 15:14Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I love seeing what's on everybody's phone, but I've been like, maybe I should get one. Like, that is pretty dope. I'm sitting next to a person. I can't see what's on their phone. What a nightmare.

• 15:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 15:24Rayna Greenberg?

  And then, ah, what a nightmare for me. But then I was on the plane the other day, landing at JFK. I was so hungry. So I'm like perusing Grubhub to see what I should order. And, and I'm looking at the menu for Pure Vida and I, this woman next to me goes, are you going to order some food for when you land? And I was like,

• 15:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God.

• 15:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Fucking look at this.

• 15:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  So weird. None of your business.

• 15:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Who let you do this? And then I was like, I, I let you do this. I let you have access to my phone.

• 15:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Still out of pocket.

• 15:49Rayna Greenberg?

  It was a crazy thing to say to a person.

• 15:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  But yeah.

• 15:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Reading my texts over my shoulder in private like a normal person. But I would just, the, the run is over.

• 15:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yep.

• 15:57Rayna Greenberg?

  No one's going to look at my phone. And I thought that it would make the screen dark. It doesn't. But if you turn the phone, even at an eighty degree angle, you cannot see it. And what, what are people doing, rolling around, letting people look at their phones?

• 16:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, I am very mindful, like, and I will turn the brightness all the way down. And I really am not just rolling around, like texting all willy nilly, looking at my phone. Like, I, it's on my mind. But it doesn't matter. Like, someone can still really see. It's crazy when someone's like, for an example, in the seat in front of you on an airplane and you can just read their texts. It's wild.

• 16:32Rayna Greenberg?

  People on flights.

• 16:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. If you know the lore, this was what, two years ago? And this guy sat next to me, texting with his, it appeared to be ex, head down for two and a half hours.

• 16:44Rayna Greenberg?

  And Ashley and I were riveted.

• 16:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I only got like a few pieces and she had, she was with somebody else. Like, we, we shared this whole story and like as much of it as we could. He was so hot. It was crazy.

• 16:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I remember went to the bathroom and he cried.

• 16:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, yeah. Went to the bathroom and he came back all glassy eyed.

• 17:01Rayna Greenberg?

  But I can't believe I was just rolling around like this. I just suggested other people. Honestly, I suggest no one else do this because I would like to look at your phone.

• 17:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly. I know. Why are you even promoting this?

• 17:08Rayna Greenberg?

  It cost me $7 and I'm just like, I feel like I'm a different version of me. I'm just like, you can't see this.

• 17:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Okay, so we have Amy Chan today. Such a wonderful episode for you guys about dating. We've done breakup stuff with her before. We can't wait to get into it, but I do just want to take a moment to share that my special is coming out this week. Thursday, it will premiere on YouTube at 8:00 PM Eastern. And it is going to be an interactive experience. So I will be live in the chat as long as you guys are nice to me. And

• 17:39Rayna Greenberg?

  I'll be in the chat if you guys aren't nice to her. I'm gonna kill you.

• 17:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, you guys are the best. So I'm just so excited. And I've talked about this. I don't need to talk about it too, too much. But I just really am excited for this premiere and to finally put it out into the world and have you guys see it. And then it will be on Prime Video, May 1st, if you want to watch it that way in the US only. But I really want you guys to watch it when it premieres and it's going to be really fun and really exciting. And I have to tell you, I got this DM and I'll try to read it without crying.

• 18:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh my God, stop. Every time you talk about it, I'm gonna cry.

• 18:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  And she said, "Hi, Ashley. I live at the Delaware beaches. Shout out to Delaware. And there's a big group of girls here who would love to organize some sort of event where we could watch your special on the 30th. And I feel like it obviously needs to be at the Starbird. I don't know if this is something you could help us organize, but I think it would be super fun to promote it there." Like, I just, I guess I hadn't really considered that. Like you mentioned a couple of weeks ago on the snack, but like I hadn't considered people like making it an event like this and getting together to watch it. And it just like brought tears to my eyes and I, if there was something official that happens at the Starbird, I'll let you guys know, or I will have already let you know, but I'm going to look into it for them. Like, I want to be there.

• 18:49Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I think about all the messages that we get constantly. I'm a day one listener. I've been listening to 20, since 2018, 2019. And you guys have been together three years now. And like, I think about all the people that have been on the ride every single week from like the day one of your love story, from like meeting him and him coming to your birthday and him becoming your, I still remember like the episode, you're like, I don't know what to call him. And I was like, that's your boyfriend. And then like you getting engaged and you moving in together and like all these special moments that like our audience has been along the ride for and I hope you guys have watched parties. I hope you theme it. I hope you guys wear your old wedding dresses and your bridesmaid dresses and theme it and make food and just like invite your friends over and have a special night. And I think the world just needs like comedy and laughter and excitement and happiness so

• 19:33Rayna Greenberg?

  much. And it's so funny. It's so personal. It's so special. The way that you shot it is so beautiful. And I'm a part of it. There's some special parts and there's some footage in it. I'm really excited for people to see. And it's just, it's really amazing. So I hope you guys like make a big deal out of it. And I hope you guys like Instagram story and tag us and do a whole thing. And it's just, I remember when you and I during COVID were doing these virtual shows and people would have watched parties and that's where Shashank first saw you for the first time.

• 20:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, he first saw me at the 2020 holiday show. Thank you. I love you. Thanks for saying that.

• 20:08Rayna Greenberg?

  I get really excited about it.

• 20:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I didn't even say it's called Here Comes The Bride. So yes, and it is like a wedding theme and you guys will see and like Raina said, that would be so special if you guys want to do themed parties and watch parties. And we are only successful because of you guys.

• 20:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like are very aware, like we're the best audience in the world. We appreciate your support so much. Like we only get to do this because of you guys. Like we, I only get to do the special because of you guys. I only got to tour because of you guys. Rain only gets to tour because of you guys. We only get to do the show and have two episodes a week. And we're just so lucky. And I really appreciate the support and I appreciate in advance and anything you guys want to do. I'm so honored and humbled. If you want to share it and you want to get in those comments early and it will be successful because of you guys. Like it will, it will only be successful because of this audience. Like the way they respond to it early on and whether that it takes off or not in

• 21:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  certain types of ways. Like a lot of this I've done on my own and it has been challenging and I feel really accomplished. And I just want to, again, like I've said, get it out to as many people as possible, but just our audiences. You're the most important. And so, thank you. Can't wait for you guys to see it. And we're just, we're so grateful for your support. So here comes the bride, April 30th, 8 p.m. on YouTube. My YouTube is youtube.com/ashleyhesselton. I hope you guys have already subscribed and signed up for the countdown. And then again, you can, it will be on Prime if you want to watch it that way as well, on May 1st, and share it and watch it with friends. And, you know, I've posted the trailer at this point, and that's on my Instagram at Ash Hess. And I just, you know, I love you guys and thank you.

• 21:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Thank you, guys. Love you.

• 21:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. All right.

• 21:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. I guess we have to thank our partners now.

• 21:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Let's thank our partners. Okay, I'm telling you guys about Aura Frames. We have Mother's Day coming up. So this is the way to upgrade from whatever you usually get your mom. Let's say you get her flowers. That's me. I'll admit it. I'm a flowers person. So think differently this year and get mom something she is gonna love. So we love Aura Frames. These are digital frames. They have free unlimited storage. You can preload photos before you gift them or ship them, personalize your gift. There's a beautiful gift box included, premium packaging, no price tag. And you are going to set them up in your home and that there's going to be the photos. You can add videos to it. You can, it edits some, there's some editing

• 22:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  features that just help it look perfect, and lighting and cropping and all of that. It is the top rated app, reached number one in the App Store on Christmas Day in 2025. What a flex. So these are incredible. We, all our families have them. I mean, my parents, my brother and sister-in-law, your families have them.

• 22:53Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, my family is scattered all over, LA, London, Pittsburgh, in Florida. And so, like, I was at my sister-in-law's parents' house the other day, and like, my brother and sister-in-law, they have a baby, and they're able to, like, upload all these photos of him all the time. And I look at the app all the time to, like, see new photos of him. It's just, it's easy and quick. And we all have a login, and we can all send photos to it. Be careful which photos you guys upload. But it just, it's really nice to, like, even log in and see the new photos. And it's just, it's so nice. My sister-in-law's parents keep it in their kitchen. It just cycles through these photos. It's so cute. And they're beautiful, by the way, the actual frames.

• 23:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  The actual frames, different sizes, of course, whatever's gonna fit best. Like, my brother, They have this huge one in their bedroom. My parents have like the smaller size on their bookshelf and all just that they're watching it. Just like what's going to come up and which ones have I put in here, which ones haven't I seen. So again, you can make Mother's Day special with Aura Frames or of course, any holiday, any gifting occasion. Named number one by Wirecutter, you can save on the gifts moms love by visiting AuraFrames.com. For a limited time, listeners can get $25 off their bestselling Carver Matte Frame with code GGE. That's A-U-R-A, Frames.com promo code GGE. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

• 24:02Rayna Greenberg?

  And Revolve, I mean, I am decked out head to toe on Revolve pretty much always and you and I have a wedding coming up in Mexico and you just go onto Revolve and you type in like, what are you looking for? So if you want like festival wear, wedding guest, if you want like, I typed in vacation in Mexico and they'll curate sort of a shop for you and they have every brand, every price point, every accessory and shoes and it's all curated in a way that I really love it. So you can see everything styled the way that actually like makes sense and they make recommendations for you. Like if you like these shorts, it goes with these shoes and these accessories and this bag. And I, I mean, it's my go-to. It's the number one place that I shop. They have every brand that I love. So my shorts are Super Down, my sandals are Teeks and my watch is Sendra. People always ask me about this watch and I have it in silver too.

• 24:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  These are Lovers and Friends pants, but I think they're sold out. They might have like one size left. I've had them for years, but I have these in a couple of different colors, but Lovers and Friends love the brand and then Super Down is one of their house brands as well. Just went to a friend's 40th birthday cocktail party, got this set, this like sheer cami and skirt from Super Down, had it sent to the hotel with that free two day shipping. And then I had a customer service issue where like this jacket had shipped and I was like, oh, can I grab them and get it shipped to New York instead of getting shipped to LA? And it had already shipped, so they couldn't do it. But they responded so quickly. They wanted to try to make it work. Like they just are responsive and quick and the best customer service.

• 25:23Rayna Greenberg?

  So if you guys want like activewear, if you want cute sets, I'm shopping for wedding guest outfits. If you want to look elevated, if you want statement pieces, sets, different textures, colors, I mean, they really have everything. The shipping and customer support are second to none. So whether it's a big night out, a wedding, a trip, or you just need something last minute that actually works, Revolve always has it. Go to revolve.com/gge to shop our faves and use the code GGE for 15% off your first order and definitely check out the festival shop while you're there. Fast shipping, easy returns. It just makes everything easier. That's revolve.com/gge. You can shop our faves and get 15% off your first order. Offer ends May 11th, so don't miss out.

• 25:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, let's get into it.

• 26:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, guys, we are very excited to welcome back a good friend of ours and a recurring guest. She is a relationship coach, uses her science-backed insights and expertise on love, heartbreak, and emotional resilience to encourage people to heal and date smarter. She is the founder of her new Breakup Bootcamp and the author of the bestselling book, Breakup Bootcamp. She has been featured in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Good Morning America, Today's Show, and more. Her book, Unsingle: How to Date Smarter and Create Love That Lasts, is out tomorrow. Please welcome back to the show our good friend, Amy Chan.

• 26:30Speaker 00

  Hi.

• 26:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Fourth time.

• 26:33Speaker 00

  I know, I know.

• 26:34Rayna Greenberg?

  You are in a group of, we think, three people.

• 26:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  And we re-released an episode.

• 26:39Speaker 00

  I know, so I'm technically winning above all those other ones.

• 26:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're five episodes in the feed. So, welcome back and congrats.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 26:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  On book number two.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Breakup Bootcamp was, came out in 2020.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 26:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. We had you on the first time before COVID.

• 26:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then the book came out, and so this is just round two. We'd love it so much.

• 27:02Rayna Greenberg?

  You really blew people's minds with like how to heal and how to get over a breakup. And I think just creating community in general with like how painful that experience is. And so many people feel like I'm the only person going through this. And I think what you did was like create this experience for so many people where you're like, no, a lot of people go through this. And, ugh, people just mention this episode to us time and time again.

• 27:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and so, guys, go back if you're dealing with any sort of breakup. Today, we're kind of going to bring you on the pre-dating, dating, early days journey. And then, as that goes on, breakups happen, then they can revisit your other episodes.

• 27:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 27:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can you tell us what inspired this book?

• 27:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, you were the breakup girly, and now you're like, no, get into a relationship.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  So I was helping all these people through their breakups, and they would come to me like, okay, Amy, I'm over my ex. Like, now what? How do I date? So I started helping people with dating, and a lot of them were like, I have dating fatigue, I hate the apps, dating sucks in my city. And I started to help them pinpoint exactly what was blocking them from creating connection. And it became very apparent there were some very clear patterns happening. And instead of throwing out dating completely because it's exhausting, it's like, no, like, let's look at where you're not converting. And a dating funnel and troubleshoot the right thing. And then I had all these clients, some who were single for like seven years, get into a healthy relationship. And I was like, okay, I've got something here.

• 28:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wow. Yeah. And you also have had your breakup bootcamp retreat and you also personally coach?

• 28:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Women.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Women and men now.

• 28:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Women and men. Okay. And is that where you find a lot of the inspiration of like, here's what people are going through?

• 28:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I run dating bootcamps as well now. So it's like the same thing, dating retreats, helping people with like, understanding patterns and building relational skills. And even just like reading nonverbal body language. All these basic things on flirting and connection that we're not taught in school. And then, yeah, helping people one-on-one go from, you know, casual dating to committed.

• 28:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you are in a great relationship yourself?

• 28:57Speaker 00

  I am. We were just dating when I first went to the podcast at your apartment. That was like, I was like, maybe a few weeks into my relationship.

• 29:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  With Paul?

• 29:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Just met him. She was like, we didn't go out dinner with him?

• 29:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  In 2020?

• 29:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  That was Paul?

• 29:13Speaker 00

  That was Paul. And you guys were asking me, I'm like, I don't know.

• 29:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  It's cool.

• 29:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Cause then during COVID, you guys went to Vancouver.

• 29:20Speaker 00

  We were only dating for six months when COVID hit.

• 29:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God.

• 29:24Speaker 00

  I know.

• 29:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Why am I like that? Do I know this? Anyway, we love Paul.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 29:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's wonderful. And you guys live in Vancouver now.

• 29:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Okay. So like when you're coaching people and they're like, okay, I feel like I'm healed. I'm ready to date more. Something you bring up in the book is like, people are like, okay, how do I find more dates?

• 29:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  And that you sort of like hit the pause button and you're like, let's work on you a little bit first.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 29:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  And something you all say in the book is you could skip to chapter 10 about how to attract more people, be more magnetic, maximize the amount of dates you go on, but you really start with like, let's work on you first before let's go on a date. Let's find more people.

• 29:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  So let's talk about that a little bit. And do people push back? And they're like, no, I don't want, I just want to date. And then you're like, no, okay, I want to hear how this goes.

• 30:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. So a lot of the times people are like, match make me. And like, tell me how to get that date. And I'm like, before we do that, like, I could put the perfect person in front of you and there will Be maybe you'll go on a few dates, but it's going to end up in the same result, which is failure.

• 30:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Right?

• 30:24Speaker 00

  And what what's causing the exhaustion is people are working harder using the same strategy that doesn't work. And they don't see that they're just spinning around. So most people are only one to two shifts away from being able to create a healthy relationship. I know that sounds wild.

• 30:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Really hopeful.

• 30:42Speaker 00

  But it's like that thing that they're doing on repeat that they're typically not aware of. So like, I'll just give you an example, like I have a client turned friend. They gave me permission, by the way, to talk about this. A jokester completely like, you know, he would always be dating it and doing it for the plot. And his friends would like expect these stories from him. And so after a while, he would just be dating and almost like doing things and turning it into a story, knowing he would tell it later. And he would never let anyone go beyond that surface, right? Like that humor was his, almost his crutch, the door that attracts someone, but he couldn't hold on to a connection. And so we worked on like, okay, stop talking to your friends about it.

• 31:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 31:24Speaker 00

  And then how can you actually reveal a little bit more about yourself, even though it's so uncomfortable? Like that guy's living in Colorado and he's married today.

• 31:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, okay. It is just like seeing something through a different lens. Like I'm dating just for the plot. I'm dating for the stories. Who cares? Because something crazy might just happen and actually not giving somebody a chance. And so I did some coaching with you. And I did it inspired by another person that you coached, who's our friend Sally, and she works with us on Vibes Only, and she's been on our show. And she is so wonderful and in a really healthy, amazing partnership with a partner that we love. And she told me how great it had been with you and how you'd helped her with this dating funnel, which we will talk about. And I was like, great, I want to, I want to work with Amy. And you and I sat down and I was like, great, let's talk about how to find more dates. And you were like, let's pause and talk about like what's been going on with you. And I spent 90 minutes crying.

• 32:10Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh.

• 32:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 32:15Rayna Greenberg?

  I was really upset about a situation that I was sort of coming out of and somebody who I thought I was really in love with who found somebody else. And you were like, I think your body feels like it's going through a breakup. I think you need to like pause and think about like, why are you choosing these people? Why do you wham around in these things? And I think it was really important to just stop me and say like, why are we leaning into these patterns over and over again, instead of just like, let's maximize the amount of dates we go on?

• 32:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you see any common themes with women, for example, of the patterns that they are stuck in?

• 32:43Speaker 00

  I think it really depends. So something I'm seeing a lot with women right now is the over ick-ing. I think it's great that we're now like, all about raising your standards and empowered women. That's amazing. But we've kind of almost over corrected to the point where everything is an ick, right? Like, they wore sandals to the date. What an ick. Actually, that was me. So bad.

• 33:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  For sure. It's like, actually.

• 33:06Speaker 00

  Like, I'm not proud of, like, back then, I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so picky. But like, yeah, I icked a guy because he wore sandals on our date. And I never saw him again. I was like, ugh, there was nothing wrong with that guy, right? It was just like a way of thinking of these things that actually don't matter if you were to go on more dates, right? So like, someone wearing sandals on date one, that's 100% of your data points on that person. If you had 100 dates, that would be 1% of your data points. Will you care that much if they're kind and loving and funny and caring? Like, you won't.

• 33:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was with a friend, my friend Kelly, who's also been on the show a couple of times. And she does coaching and tarot reading. And she's just seen so many women who are really incredible, where she's like, I have no notes. I just, it's tough. And I don't have all the answers. I'm not a licensed therapist to speak to certain things. But her pattern is just like, these wonderful women and disparity in the wonderful men. And that could just be a doomsday outlook. But we will discuss kind of how to maximize today. But are you seeing that too? Where you're kind of like?

• 34:15Speaker 00

  I am seeing that and I and I don't want to be like lower your standards.

• 34:20Rayna Greenberg?

  No, no, no, for sure.

• 34:21Speaker 00

  It's just understanding the difference between your preferences and your deal breakers. And I do find that some of my female clients, they think that there is these deal breakers. Like the guy has to make this amount of money, right? Like I had one who's like, they have to have X million of net worth because I have, you know, a lot of money. Like, but is that really that? Or do you need someone who's generous and that you can have, you know, a good lifestyle together? And she's like, oh yeah, you're right. So like, it's not really $10 million in net worth. And, and so I just like, I think that people need to, men and women need to evaluate like, what actually matters when it comes to a long-term relationship? And there is research that shows what doesn't, which are shiny qualities like heights. Yeah.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  Uh, you know, jawline, if they like skiing and what actually does help a relationship become happy and stable, which is how well do you handle conflict together? How committed are they? Do you feel appreciated by them? Those are the things that are going to be the glue when that chemistry fades.

• 35:23Rayna Greenberg?

  So let's talk about identifying your patterns because I like what you said earlier where you're like, some people just like with the same information, they just keep reimmersing themselves.

• 35:32Speaker 00

  Going harder.

• 35:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it's just let's maximize more dates. And I do think at some point that can work. You can go on 25 dates as the same person. Somebody will be happy with your brand of whatever it is and, and be with you. That's, you can do that, but if people really want to work on themselves, like how do we identify the patterns that exist?

• 35:50Speaker 00

  So I, in the book, I talk about the dating funnel. There's five stages and on the very top stage is prospecting and that's lead generation. I always say you should have three sources of lead generation. So if you're doing online, great, but I would add something where you are doing something that you're actually interested in, whether it's a run club or pottery, whatever. And you will see the same group of people over a period of time.

• 36:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Did you, are you saying lead generation?

• 36:15Speaker 00

  I am.

• 36:16Rayna Greenberg?

  It's really funny.

• 36:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I know.

• 36:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Ashley's had sales jobs.

• 36:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  It took me a minute because I was like, I heard it, but I was like, I love that jargon.

• 36:24Rayna Greenberg?

  I like how you talk about it as a business and we talked about this on the show before, like, why do we not apply the same strategy to dating that we do to everything else? It's so funny because like.

• 36:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like Ashley's gonna need clarification.

• 36:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Lead gen, that's lead gen meetings, like every other day in Amazon and group.

• 36:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so I love this.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  Right. I have a marketing background, so that's why.

• 36:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love it. I love it.

• 36:45Speaker 00

  So you want to do something where you'll see the same group of people over a period of time because there's something called the mirror exposure effect, which explains how the more you see someone, the more it will amplify the base feeling. So you might meet someone and not feel like, oh my gosh, this is romantic, but you're like, oh, I really enjoy talking to this person. And over time, it will amplify that connection, which can turn romantic. But if it's just one time, you never give that a chance to grow. Also, people who could be really great at dating, they might not be good at the relationship part and vice versa, right? Like, so someone who's more of a wallflower, maybe they're not extroverted and charismatic.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  They might not wow you at a bar or on a first date, but if you get to know them in a setting where they feel more at ease, then you get to really get to know their character.

• 37:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, so I want to talk about that a little bit more. Okay, they're good at dates.

• 37:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, charming.

• 37:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Versus like, good at being in a relationship with you. Because I've definitely, I mean, I'm guilty of it too. You go out with somebody and you're like, eh, I don't know. But on paper, they are like a good person. You're like, didn't show up great on the date. But like, when you think about people that are tremendously charming on a first date, they are tremendously charming on every first date.

• 37:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  On everybody. Right. They're really great on, they're great on dates. Yeah. I think it's a red flag.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. And you think like, oh, no, no, it's because it's soulmate connection.

• 38:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Brought it out in him.

• 38:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 38:08Rayna Greenberg?

  So how do you tell people like, how do you filter for that?

• 38:10Speaker 00

  Here's the thing. So, okay, we'll go into the other stages because this is how you filter. So after prospecting is the next stage, which is discovery. That's dates one to two. That's just a vibe check. And I think the main issue people have, I think especially women, is because like, they're like, I don't have time to waste. And so they're trying to be like, are you going to be my future baby daddy? Like, and even the questions they ask are leading to either judge them or pedestal them. It's too quick for the very first date. When you're like, there's a connection here, and I think like five or above is worthwhile to go again. Then, once you hit two dates, we get into the evaluation stage. And that stage's three to 20, or like three months. And that's where you figure out how someone is.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  And you can't fast forward that. Like, everyone wants to know right away. You can't, like, you get to know someone through your first fight by going on a weekend trip and the flights don't work. Like, you see how someone has integrity and they follow through on what they say. Because like, the first month, it's very easy to hoodwink you.

• 39:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:16Speaker 00

  Hoodwink.

• 39:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hoodwink is so funny. Ja Rule tweeted that out about Fire Festival. He said, "I too was hoodwinked, bamboozled, and led astray." I haven't heard hoodwinked since that famous tweet. I mean, some people would say even two months. You know, you really, how, it depends on how good you are at it.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Right. So here's also something interesting. It's not in the book, but it talks, like, people who have ADHD, the way that they date is also different. So their reward pathways and circuitry is different. So when they are excited about someone, they almost want to blow their dopamine load all at once. So they have the urge to text, to see, to call, they'll do all of it, right? It's very exciting. Instead of drawing it out and allowing emotional connection and bonding and the things that create connection to happen. Then after two months, they're like, oh, I'm like bored. And then the other person has no idea, like, why are they not initiating? Why are they not trying anymore? It's not that they're a bad person, but someone like that, what I would coach them to do, and like, you need to draw it out.

• 40:18Speaker 00

  You can't blow it all up.

• 40:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Blow your load, yeah. So how would you even advise them on that, on drawing it out?

• 40:25Speaker 00

  So someone like that who has a history of really rushing through romantic connection and getting everything they want really quickly, I would be like, even though you want to, don't follow every urge. You want to pace it out. Don't see them five times a week. You know, maybe two to three is, is good, but you want to allow like the deeper connection to build so that when the, you know, excitement and the stimulation starts to wear down, which it will, there's something else there to hold that connection together.

• 40:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm. Yeah. That's interesting.

• 40:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 40:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's a personality type.

• 40:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I know.

• 40:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, what's that? Do we get through the funnel?

• 40:58Speaker 00

  Oh, no. Okay. So, and so, yeah, you basically, after evaluation stage, you are trying to see if someone has, you know, I'd say four pillars for a healthy relationship. That is, there's chemistry, there's compatibility, meaning mutual core values and life vision, right? Like, if you want kids and they don't, that's not compatible. Timing, the perfect person at the wrong time is the wrong person. And then the fourth is mutuality, and this is a big one that people tend to miss. Two people equally invested in building the relationship. It can't be you being the glue, you over accommodating. You can't have that, right? And so if, if all four are present and it's good enough, this is where you're like, okay,

• 41:41Speaker 00

  I'm gonna jump in to the stage four, commitment. And this is where a lot of people who have more avoidant tendencies get stuck because they want a hundred percent of the signals that, oh, my gosh, this is the person because like this is gonna be forever. Like, that's not gonna happen. There's a point where it's good enough and to turn it great means diving in with two feet and going through conflict together and ups and downs. And that's how a relationship becomes great.

• 42:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  And then the last stage is retention, which is like a whole other book and retreat.

• 42:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. Perfect. Yeah. And get the book, do the retreats, do the things.

• 42:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Do all of it. So you talk about mutuality. It's interesting. You, you did an entire chapter about the breadcrumb diet.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:21Rayna Greenberg?

  So why did it feel important to talk about this in a whole chapter in terms of like what people accept and what's normal to them and what, what should it feel like?

• 42:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I talk In the book about this experience I had with this guy named Ben and where basically we had like this one week romance and then afterwards it was like these intermittent rewards. I'd see him for a day every couple of months. He like send me a text from Madagascar and I was like in love with this guy for three years. And like all of those little rewards kept me hooked on him. And like, that's what I call the breadcrumb diet. It's just enough to keep your attention and keep that tether, but never enough to keep you full. And it's, it could be really wearing on your self-worth and your self-esteem. And you're basically in a relationship with someone who's not in a relationship with you.

• 43:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Not at all. And then do you feel like people romanticize that? Like the just, well, he called or he did this, or I don't know. You have like a fake love story in your head that it may work out eventually. And then this is just that journey to get there and you almost find romance in something that's not romantic at all.

• 43:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. And here's like the terrible thing about our psychology. The more obstacles are in your way for this love, the more it makes you want it, which sucks. Like, why did God create us like this?

• 43:37Rayna Greenberg?

  I think it's a pretty common experience. Yeah.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  You know, like, and, and so like the inconsistency actually makes you feel more hooked. And then you start obsessing over them because your mind is trying to figure out this puzzle and get an answer. And then when you get that Instagram like, it gives you some relief. So then you start just chasing the relief from the pain versus trying to feel good.

• 43:59Rayna Greenberg?

  So this definitely obviously comes from childhood for a lot of people and feeling like love was intermittently given to you and having to chase after love and, you know, it was earned and things like that. And I would love to hear you speak on it. But if that's the kind of person that you are, if that's a familiar pattern to you, how do we stop doing that? I understand that it can be intoxicating for people to be like, but when he does text me or he shows up, it feels so good. And if you haven't had a love that's consistent and intentional, and that's all you've had, I understand that feeling like a familiar pattern that you're like, I got this.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:30Rayna Greenberg?

  So how do we talk to people like about not being like that?

• 44:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. In Sex, Love Addicts Anonymous, they have this term called the qualifier. And for me, Ben was that qualifier. He's like that black hole. It didn't matter if I was like, okay, I'm just gonna take five hours to respond to the text or distance myself. Anytime he was in my orbit, digitally or physically, I would be drawn back in. And the only way to stop it is to cut it off completely. And so I had to do that for like two years. And like now we're friends. He doesn't know he's in the book, but um.

• 45:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Surprise.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  That's okay. I had to tell multiple people I wrote about them in my comedy set.

• 45:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Same thing.

• 45:12Speaker 00

  But yeah, the, when you're in this hot, cold cycle, the only way to get out of it is to stop. And I think awareness is the first step. And then after, okay, how do you stop getting yourself in these situations? It's why I have people do this dating experiment, which is like really shifting your chemistry compass to go from like unavailability and anxiety and chaos to getting familiar with what stable and peaceful feels like.

• 45:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  When you say what stable and peaceful feels like internally or with a partner or both?

• 45:45Speaker 00

  With a partner. So you can't go from zero to a hundred. You can't go from going for unavailable people to going to the most loving person. Cause you'll find that loving person boring and you'll reject them, right? It's just like, if you've never had Chinese food, I'm not gonna start you at duck feet. Right? Like I'm gonna start you at fried rice, right? And then once you like fried rice, I'm gonna introduce, I don't know, green beans with garlic. Like we, we kind of like almost exposure therapy you to Chinese food until it becomes more familiar. Same thing with availability and kind.

• 46:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  What does this look like? Seeking them out for dates? Like, how does it just play out ideally?

• 46:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Or walking away from people quicker when you sense it.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. So it's a combination of two. So in the book, you conduct your own dating experiment. The way you do it, if you have to date nine people and you can't get into a relationship with any of them. So without, when I'm working with someone one on one, I will make them date people totally outside their type. So if they have a height requirement, I'll make them date someone shorter than them. If the, a lot of the guys who have an age requirement, I'll make them date someone 10 years older. And what happens is when their homework is they can't get in a relationship with them, they're like, okay. Like I'll do it.

• 46:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  And the stakes are low.

• 46:54Speaker 00

  Stakes are low. They're more present. Like, I'm just gonna get to know this person. What happens 80% of the time with my, my one-on-one clients, they end up getting into a relationship and they're like, I'm with someone I would have never.

• 47:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, yeah. Shocker. That was the goal.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. Sally did that. Like Sally met Joff on date number two. I was like, you can't get a relationship with him. I'm like, you can't because you jump in way too quickly. So you have to keep going before you're like, this is the one. And then I act all like obsessive and committed before there's even a commitment. And I made her continue doing the dating experiment.

• 47:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  We know, we were with her. We went to drinks with her when she first kind of met him. And she was like, I'm not allowed to move this forward. And she, she shared her whole journey.

• 47:36Rayna Greenberg?

  She's such a good student.

• 47:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  She's the best. Also shorter. And she talks about, she may not have picked him and she never went for super tall guys.

• 47:43Rayna Greenberg?

  She went for ugly guys.

• 47:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:45Rayna Greenberg?

  So you made her date an attractive person. She was like, this is not my type.

• 47:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Great call. Like her, I would say her ex was objectively unattractive, but very tall.

• 47:54Rayna Greenberg?

  And I'm saying, he's also a bad person on the inside, but.

• 47:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  But tall.

• 47:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Tall.

• 47:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Tall and ugly. Tall, ugly, bad person. She went short and hot.

• 48:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Old, short, hot.

• 48:07Rayna Greenberg?

  He's a rich kid, like.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  He's a cheap, rich kid, which is the worst.

• 48:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Going back to you saying someone wants a rich person, like we know someone who was really always choosing guys that had a bunch of money, had a Hampton's house, this and that, and were cheap. Like, there's nothing worse.

• 48:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  You'd want someone broke, especially at a certain age, but generous is where it's at.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  Yes, for sure.

• 48:33Rayna Greenberg?

  You said something in the book that really resonated with me about talking about people that are emotionally unavailable. My mom said this to me a long time ago. She said, it doesn't matter why people do what they do. Understand why you're attracted to it. But you framed it as like, stop analyzing people's behavior and spending hours trying to figure like, why they did what they did, because it tethers you to them even more.

• 48:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, interesting.

• 48:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Can you talk about that a little bit? Because I thought that was a really interesting way to frame that.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. So the more you obsess over someone and think about them, which is why when they're hot and cold, there's uncertainty, which makes you do it more because the brain doesn't like open loops. It's going to try to close it. You will then be like, well, I'm thinking about this person so much. It must be because I love them. It must be because our connection is so strong. So like, that's how we rationalize the behavior of thinking about them all the time.

• 49:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, got it.

• 49:23Rayna Greenberg?

  It's like spending time with them almost.

• 49:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 49:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, think about them and talk to your friends about them and break down the text messages and the interactions. It does, it allows you to like, and masturbate about them, by the way. Like, it allows you to spend time with them.

• 49:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 49:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. So speaking of closing the loop, I really just want to go back to the experiment. And I just, I love this so, so much. So I just want to continue to talk about it a little more. And the way that you have strategized this, so people take the pressure off. They're like, I can date this short person, older person, whatever it is, because I'm not allowed to get in a relationship with them. Anyway, I mean, I'm just kind of repeating what you said, but it's so brilliant. Because otherwise, we do this thing where we're like, no, but I can't be with that short guy, or I can't be with that whatever, that person with that job, or that person of the, I don't know, that culture. When you go into every date thinking that could be my person, that sets you up for failure. So dating a bunch of people casually that are so wildly

• 50:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  different than what you've gone for before, really, I feel like obviously is what does the trick. And it's just really brilliant. So I just want to commend you on

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 50:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  what you've developed.

• 50:27Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 50:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  The program you've developed. The rehab program you've developed.

• 50:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. So you tell people to cast a wide net, have a bunch of different sources of lead gen. Then then, do you have people, they keep a spreadsheet?

• 50:40Speaker 00

  I mean, some do.

• 50:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Of course you do. Just keep notes, basically. Do you, like, post-date, is there part of like, what you liked, what you didn't like?

• 50:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. So what we do is, like, I will give my client homework. So they can't have another session with me until they do their homework, which is usually like, at least two more people. And then we come back and we dissect like, what went well, what didn't, what came up for you? So that they're learning along the way. And I had one client, she's in the book. She was an entrepreneur and she's like, I can only date people who are entrepreneurs. And she had a seven year relationship that she had a breakup with. I helped her with that and then started helping her date. She did the experiment and then I think like guy five was this guy who had a nine to five job. He worked at the same company his entire life. And she was like, oh, it was fun. So I'd like, keep going, keep going. And then after like eight dates, she's like, I don't know, like, he's not going to get my schedule. I'm like, I'm so different.

• 51:32Speaker 00

  And she wanted to end it with him. I'm like, stop it. I'm like, keep going, keep going. And like, they've been together for five and a half years now. And like, he's such a, he's complimentary to her chaos.

• 51:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, she was, no offense to her. She was so wrong. She had the complete opposite outlook of what you should have, where you want someone that's the balance, not living the same type of crazy as you. I think that's where people go so wrong. That'd be like us being like, I really need this like comedic podcaster entertainer who tours. Cause they're the only, they're the only one that's going to get it. That's the nightmare.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  That's my nightmare.

• 52:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  I chose a staple person who like can kind of be along on the crazy life that we live.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  I continue to choose comedians and that is why I'm single.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  I continue to sleep with comedians who are just as fucked up.

• 52:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, I want to tread lightly, this is a client. I'm sure she's a wonderful person, but it's interesting that her mind was like, that's the only person that'll get me. That's not true. Like other people will get you. How complex are you? No, I'm an entrepreneur. You won't understand. It's like, I want someone that gets my sense of humor. He has my same values and things like, those are the non-negotiables. But a smart dude can understand my life. A few months of dating, he gets it. She picked up on it pretty quick. So it's just, but that's, people get stuck in that. I need someone that does the same thing. So we work together and it's actually the complete opposite.

• 53:03Speaker 00

  Right. They have their ideas of what they absolutely need. Right. And like another one, like she was saying as well, like, well, he has a certain amount of vacation days. How am I going to live a life like that? Right? Like he has a boss and like, it's fine. It actually worked out. Okay. And like, if I just told her that on a logical level, she could get it, but she would never really get it. Which is why she had to do the experiment to be like, oh, actually this isn't so bad.

• 53:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  A hundred percent. Yeah, I don't love that Shashank has limited PTO. We could be jet setting all the time, but all right, he's just a normal thing.

• 53:43Rayna Greenberg?

  It could be worse. He could be a male comedian. It could be so much worse.

• 53:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Stability's hot. Raina doesn't get it, but one day she will.

• 53:53Rayna Greenberg?

  I think I finally got this shit kicked out of me enough times this year.

• 53:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Famous last word.

• 54:00Rayna Greenberg?

  I did send her one yesterday. He thought, and I was like, oh, no, it's short.

• 54:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  So goddamn it.

• 54:05Speaker 00

  I would be like, you can't date anyone funny. He has to be like, no jokes. Jokes? No, can't date him.

• 54:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's so funny.

• 54:12Rayna Greenberg?

  When I really think about it, somebody who needs to be professionally funny, I don't need that. I'll handle the jokes. That's fine.

• 54:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  I got the jokes. I got the money. I got the jokes. Do you have another like a success story you love? Cause these are just fascinating to me in terms of someone that ended up with someone they never would have picked.

• 54:27Speaker 00

  I do. I have one client, and again, they all agree to allow me to talk to her. But one, she's like, yeah, like I always date these guys. He's like, they're so unavailable. And then like the ones who like me, I don't like them. That's a common problem. And I was like, okay, like, let's look at who your, your history. And she was dating guys who were like 10 out of 10 of the traction scale, super successful, tall. And I'm like, yeah, like these guys are fun and they'll have sex with you, but like there are troves of women who are gunning after this guy, right? So you can keep like competing with all of them and they don't have the attention span for you, or you can just stop that. And so like, I had her do the dating experiment and one of the guys, she, she had known this guy through like parties and stuff like that.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  And one day she's like, okay, like went on a date with this guy. And she's like, you know, it was like, okay, but like, I really loved how he was like so open about his divorce. And he just kept being such an open book that allowed me like to talk a lot about my stuff. And like, they keep going. She's like a businesswoman, so she's also very like, doesn't let people in easily. And so I think the fact that he was so open allowed her to be herself. And like, they're in a relationship today and like, look, he's like a teacher. He's totally not like this jet setting guy from Miami that she's used to. And like, but she's the star of the show and it's great.

• 55:52Rayna Greenberg?

  It is so true. I mean, you see, you make like that list of like, I want him to be a certain, I want the height, I want the money, I want the income level, I want that certain career, I want that certain type of education. Everybody is going for that person.

• 56:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're like on The Bachelor.

• 56:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 56:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like literally, you're competing.

• 56:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 56:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  So going back to this, you're turned off by people who want you. That's tough. And I think we've all felt that and I think have overcome it too. And then there's certainly like a neediness desperate, that's just going to be an ick. But how do you combat that truly you only want people who don't want you?

• 56:26Speaker 00

  I mean, that's a lot of therapy of like really understanding why an activated nervous system is what gives you thrills.

• 56:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  Right? Like, so some of my guy clients, they date broken birds or people who come with a lot of chaos or drama. And when I'm working with them, I'm not like, okay, let's get you dating like another girl who's very like peaceful. I'm like, where in your life are you not living a full life? Because you're outsourcing your excitement to someone else. So their chaos actually makes you feel alive. That's the problem. So that's like that foundational work before I even get them into dating.

• 57:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like a savior complex?

• 57:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:07Rayna Greenberg?

  I think we assign that to women a lot, but men really have this.

• 57:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. We never do. We never talk about this as much because we also want to think like, just women are wonderful and they don't need saved and all this stuff. But I've seen this with guy friends, that like they always go for like a broken, insecure

• 57:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  woman they want to fix.

• 57:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. So like with some of those clients, I'm working with them on like, you gotta go get guy friends. Like just because your college buddies who are not married, like you can't just accept that's your friendship destiny. Go, go get some hobbies. Like I'll even make them go and do like flow state dancing and stuff and get into their body, things that aren't achievement oriented. Like get them back into play. Like when they're so serious and analytical with work, just get tap back into their human sides so that they are cultivating their aliveness and vitality from within versus like finding a girl and being like, let me suck your vitality and like, you know, feel good about myself.

• 58:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. My gosh, I never thought about that. Just like a vampire. People that like truly are just, that's where they're getting their thrills.

• 58:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  From their dating.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  And they don't think that. They think they're just being so nice.

• 58:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, get a hobby. I love that.

• 58:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, you probably see that with women too, with anybody where their one priority in life is to find a partner. And that is not what the right people are looking for. People who are like healthy and stable, want someone with a life and interests and hobbies and passions.

• 58:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think a lot of it's also when you don't have that, if you don't have a full life, your energy just is different. Right? Like the stakes are so high, like you better like me because like there's so much on you and people can feel that. It just feels off. I mean, that's how I used to date. Like I was so good at getting the first date or the second date. You know, I knew all the tricks. I was that person who was great at dating. I couldn't hold a relationship. I was way too needy. I was like, I just want to be your plus one and they could feel that energy.

• 59:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, the desperation. Yeah. You tell people to have nine people in the funnel, not at all times?

• 59:17Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 59:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  So like, let's talk like, how many people should we be dating like at once? Cause I like the idea that like you're not putting all of your eggs in this one basket. But like, you don't can't have nine baskets.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  This process takes usually six months.

• 59:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Dateable guys?

• 59:29Speaker 00

  Six months to a year. Yeah.

• 59:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  In the country that there's that many? In any city? No, no, it's not possible. Maybe she's like date women also.

• 59:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  So how does this usually play out? Cause nine feels, I know people are listening, like there is no fucking way. Tell us how this looks.

• 59:48Speaker 00

  I mean, so if it's over a course of six months.

• 59:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 59:51Speaker 00

  To a year. I mean, like you can do that. That's an hour of your time. Like you're doom scrolling for longer than that.

• 59:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 59:58Speaker 00

  And like, that's the thing, right? Like I, I say in my book and in life, like if there's anything meaningful you want to create, whether it's a stand-up comedy career or a relationship, you need to do a hundred percent of your 50%. The other 50% is out of your control, luck, timing, whatever. But your hundred percent of your 50 is like, are you putting yourself out there? If you are super busy and you have a startup and you don't have the time or the capacity for a relationship, you probably shouldn't be dating. That's okay, right? But just be realistic. If you want a relationship, then yeah, you're gonna have to carve out time to do so.

• 1:00:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  And you might have to have your routine and your full life, but you might have to be like, no, like, I'm gonna spend five hours a week and that is gonna be dedicated to dating.

• 1:00:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. And then when you are working with clients and they're doing it and they're going on the dates, what would you say how they're finding these people? Like, is it, is it just such a mix of app versus whatever club they might be in versus being set up? I mean, are you just like, I don't care?

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  Do like, I don't care. Just have three sources of the generation and I'll give them ideas on that. But I will also help them with what I call green lighting.

• 1:01:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  So green lighting is like a state of being in the world where your signals is like, I'm friendly and approachable. Versus like, if you come up to me, I'm gonna fuck you up.

• 1:01:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:01:20Speaker 00

  Right? Like, and, and like being aware of what is the energy that you're emitting? And the first thing I'll have people do is I'll have them do, uh, experiment with for seven days. They have to make eye contact with everyone they come across with on the street. And they have to hold gaze. And even when they're getting their coffee, they have to make eye contact and like make that person feel like the most important person in the room.

• 1:01:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

  And what will happen is people who are typically used to not being seen, they'll start responding to you in a positive way. And you're basically learning the art of eye contact, which is the beginning of flirtation in a low stakes environment. So that when you are at the party or the event, you're just kind of naturally doing it.

• 1:02:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:02:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  So when you talk about the psychology of being magnetic and that's like halfway through the book, like, is this where you kind of start? Like, I was thinking about the person you said hadn't been in a relationship for seven years, which is probably pretty rare, but not completely uncommon. And if somebody's like, I don't even know what to do. Is that like an exercise you?

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would work on the basics of like sometimes like I can't make eye contact. Like it scares the shit out of me. Then like, okay, we have to work on these things. How do you actually have a conversation that is engaging? So it's like a back and forth versus your tennis ball machine and you're just shooting tennis balls at someone who hasn't picked up a racket.

• 1:02:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Are you sometimes talking to people and you're like, oh, I, I get like, do you have to tell people gently like you? Interrupt a lot. Are you dumb? And like, you sometimes meet with clients and you're like, oh, if you're doing this on a date, you're, it's off putting?

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's that. There is this all like, all the time. I'll look at their dating profile. I'm like, this doesn't look like you.

• 1:02:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 1:02:56Speaker 00

  Like, you should actually look better in person than in your photo.

• 1:03:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  Because the worst thing is it's disappointment and like the shock of disappointment is what someone doesn't bounce back from. So like, if you're bald, you're bald, but don't pretend that you're not. And then you show up and you're bald, like that gap where they're like, oh, you're not going to recover from that.

• 1:03:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Disappointment and also depending on how big the discrepancy is dishonesty.

• 1:03:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:03:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like that's the number one way to make sure that you have a disappointing date and you never see that person again.

• 1:03:28Speaker 00

  Right. But the over filtering of the face is dishonest.

• 1:03:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it is. Are there other ways to be magnetic?

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  We're so often concerned about like what we're doing to be magnetic and to be likeable. But really, it's about how you leave people feeling.

• 1:03:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  It's like, people are really just in their own world. So if you are the type of person who can ask questions and be present, and again, like, make that person feel like they're the most important person in the room. And this goes across, not even just in relationships. This is a life skill of being actually curious about the person, having them self disclose because that gives them dopamine. That will make you more magnetic.

• 1:04:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Asking questions. Well, I know, Raina, because it's interesting, because I feel like Raina is so good at that with anybody, like friends, date partners, you know? But then what you fall for is when people like ask you questions, because

• 1:04:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:04:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's my love language. When somebody allows me to de-escalate and they're asking me all the questions, I'm like, how quickly can I get my clothes off? The way you are, and you are really curious and you really like to get to know people, like, do you really enjoy it? Or do you actually just want to talk about yourself?

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  I really just want to talk about myself. I mean,

• 1:04:45Rayna Greenberg?

  I think strangers would say, Raina asks a lot of questions. She's very curious. And I think my closest friends would say, Raina will find any way to make this about herself.

• 1:04:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's not, no, you really are like the best listener, the best friend, you know? But then I think sometimes it makes people feel close to you too soon, even women.

• 1:05:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:05:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, like Raina, this one night, this girls night, we met all these girls, Raina and this one girl, we're like locked in. I was like, oh my gosh, she's never gonna leave you alone. She thinks you're her best friend now.

• 1:05:08Speaker 00

  But it's better to have that skill and then know how to turn it off and have a boundary than not have it at all, right? Like, my party trick, when I'm like at a, at a party, I'm like, oh fuck, I can't. I'll just like talk to people and I'll just like, tell me more. And then like, they love me. I'm like, fuck it. Like, it's an hour. I gotta go now.

• 1:05:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  I actually hate you. Yeah.

• 1:05:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Any other tips for, I do have another question, but any other tips for being more magnetic? I think this is great. Asking questions, make good eye contact.

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  There's this really interesting study that they did in the UK where they had all these cameras at a bar and they wanted to see like who makes the first move. And what they found was it was actually the woman that made the first move. So before a guy would approach her, she would make an average of, I believe it was 13 direct and indirect glances at the guy. That guy would make an average of seven space maximization movements while checking to see if she was looking. And so this is like stretching your arms, patting your buddy's back to show where you are in the social hierarchy. And, and if she noticed and there was enough eye plate, then he would physically approach her. And they've done this study in, in different bar settings and what they found, it's not the most beautiful,

• 1:06:16Speaker 00

  physically attractive woman that gets approached the most, it's the one who seems the most approachable.

• 1:06:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  So human beings very quickly in a millisecond, when they're meeting a stranger, they are seeing, is this person safe? Meaning, are they gonna reject me or are they dangerous? And is this person a winner or a loser? Those are the two things that are subconsciously they are picking up. So if you are giving out signals of like, fuck, why am I here? Like, oh my God.

• 1:06:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:42Speaker 00

  No one will come up to you.

• 1:06:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  And if they do, it's the wrong type of person.

• 1:06:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, like, no one's like, man, that girl looks like a bitch. I'm gonna wanna talk to her. That's like a guy with a shame kink.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:06:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, who wants to be rejected. Okay, so, but what are we talking body language, like, at the bar?

• 1:06:58Speaker 00

  Open body language, being able to make eye contact.

• 1:07:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  So, there's like, three different types of gazes. So, basically, when you walk into, say, like, a bar or a party, there's like, the room encompassing glance, where you're kind of like, surveying the land, be like, is there anyone? And then if you see someone, you basically, you kind of look, like, these kind of direct and indirect glances, it's pretty short, and you're just trying to see if they'll catch your attention. Once you notice, like, oh, they're kind of looking at me back, then you want to do the longer glance. So, you kind of hold eye contact, and like, bonus points, if you can hold eye contact, and then have a slow-earned smile.

• 1:07:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:07:37Speaker 00

  And it activates something in the other person, subconsciously, of like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm special. This gaze is for me, and this smile is for me. And that will start creating the interest for someone to want to talk to you.

• 1:07:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. I was interested in the stuff you said guys are doing. Like, they're just, what, just kind of...

• 1:07:54Speaker 00

  You see it all the... When you go out, you'll start seeing it.

• 1:07:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Speaker 00

  They will put their hands here, as well. They'll make themselves look bigger.

• 1:08:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Bigger, yeah.

• 1:08:03Speaker 00

  I've gone into, like, business meetings with a guy, and like, he's just trying to do... I'm like, dude, I fucking know body language. I know what you're trying to do. You're power moving me. I'm like, please.

• 1:08:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Putting their arms behind their head, just like, real peacocking. But you're saying in the bar, it might mean they're interested. If they're looking back and forth at you and stretching and shit.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  There's a reason why they're trying to do it, right? Like, that is interest of like, like, see me, like, I'm mad.

• 1:08:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:08:25Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, I wish you could, like, be on these dates and, like, watch, because I think some people think they're flirting, but they're really nagging, and I think a lot of people really revert, like, men do this all the time. The number one thing I hate is when someone just kind of, like, pokes at me and nags me. And I think people think they're being funny and playful or hard to get, and the advice is, men like bitches. And so, I think that, like, it's bad, toxic advice, but people kind of lean into it. Do people tell you, like, I don't know what to talk about when somebody comes over to me? Or are you like, I can't do everything for you?

• 1:08:53Speaker 00

  I like, look, I have like some questions that allow people to have in their back pocket to get a conversation from like, how's the weather to something a bit deeper. And again, like, you don't want to go from zero to a hundred. There's a reason why there's small talk like, oh, like, have you been to this bar before? What's your favorite drink to something a little bit deeper than that, right? You don't want to like divulge your trauma like on dates one when you've met someone for 30 minutes.

• 1:09:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I mean, I love to comment on what's happening in the room. I mean, if you're at the bar, I mean, if there's a long line, like something you can be funny about without sounding like negative and complaining, but like just observational. And then at a party, I think, how do you know the host? Things like that. When you answer, give something they can latch on to. We went to college together. No, too vague. What college? Where? Like, anything, I always think, like, think of the way you respond. Is there any follow up question they could ask? I don't know, I just think that's like the details you can pepper in that someone can grab on to.

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. And in the book, I give a template for open door, closed door questions. It's like, how do you actually do that? So, yeah.

• 1:10:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  I wrote this quote down from you about a paradigm shift. You said you invite the reader to consider, what if instead of viewing each day and experience as a means to an end, you saw it as part of the grander journey? And essentially just bad dates, even failed connections as stepping stones. Every date, every interaction gives you insight into your desires, your priorities, and how to connect with others. Some people in our lives to show us what we don't want, which is just as important as discovering what we do. And I think that's really important because it's so easy to go on a handful of bad dates, a 10, a dozen, nine, and just be like, this is miserable. But it's like, but that's, you're on the journey. What was the goal here? To meet your husband in high school? You know, like, if not, you have to do the things. So I

• 1:10:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  think that's like a great shift that you discuss.

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I know it's hard, but like getting jaded and then grouchy and then being like, oh, my God, dating just sucks. Like, it's impossible. The story will not serve you for the goal that you want. And you can believe it, and that's fine. But if you actually want a relationship, you need to do all the work, like, mental workout to keep yourself in a positive frame of mind.

• 1:11:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, how do you balance that I'm jaded and cynical and I've been on 10 terrible dates? And you almost feel silly to get excited, you know? Not like, oh, my God, tonight I'm gonna meet my husband. I think we're all like, most of us, especially a certain age, you're not, you know, we're a little more realistic than that. But I do think about a woman, for example, that is before the you even get to the date or meeting the person, you're in a really negative mindset. But you don't want to do this like, tonight could be the night, you know? And how do you find that happy medium?

• 1:11:42Speaker 00

  So there's some science behind this. In the book, it's like a pre-date priming ritual.

• 1:11:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:11:48Speaker 00

  This is really important. So right now, what's happening is like, our dopamine reward circuits are like almost getting exhausted, right? Like, so before a date, if we're like scrolling or watching porn, we're doing all these things. It's like almost like blowing our dopamine load. And then we go on the date and we're like, I feel nothing.

• 1:12:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:12:07Speaker 00

  So what you want to do before the date, you want to set aside some time, like 30 minutes to an hour. And if you actually do something that cultivates awe, you can do this by even watching a video of the Northern Lights or listening to a song that really moves you and just getting in the presence of like, oh, my gosh, I'm in the presence of something bigger than myself. It actually will make you more open, more connected to others. And so you want to get yourself in that state. So you're actually setting yourself up for success. It's like an athlete before they are about to go and do a race. You don't just like, you know, watch TV, like smoke weed and then you go on your fucking ski race. Like you do the thing to prep you for the best chances of success. The same thing goes for dating.

• 1:12:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hmm. I love that. And even if you go straight from a stressful day at work, straight to the date, that's not, I mean, there just needs to be a transitional.

• 1:13:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Period. Or you're just bringing it into the date. But this is just not, this is all of us.

• 1:13:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Being in a bad mood and taking it on someone else.

• 1:13:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. I remember on the, on the way to my first date with Paul, I was in the Uber and I'm like, I'm just gonna do it really differently. Cause I used to be that person who asked questions like, oh, like what area do you live in? Like Tribecca? Lean in, right? Gowanus? Lean out.

• 1:13:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's so funny.

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  And I'm like, I'm just gonna have fun tonight. Like, I'm just gonna have fun and have a good time and like, this date's gonna go well. Like, I'm just gonna have a good time. And like, I really just set that intention. And I do think that it primed me and it helped me have a fun time. And when I first met Paul, like, our first hour, we had a drink. And I wasn't like, oh, my God, like, what a hot guy. Like, I want to be with him. I was like, oh, this is fun. Like, yeah, this is cool. It's a cool conversation. He's like, hey, do you want to grab a bite? I'm like, oh, okay, let's go. Yeah. And then after bite, like, oh, do you want to grab dessert? Oh, okay, let's go. And then we just kind of, throughout the night, the connection started to grow.

• 1:14:07Rayna Greenberg?

  I like not going into it with that attitude. I think that it is really hard to not go into it, especially when you're dating so much, because so much online is about how bad dating is. I mean, there couldn't be more articles about how terrible men are and how women are single. And the dating pool is awful. And especially when you go on three or four bad dates, you're just like, I, I guess I'll fucking do this. But it's not gonna be fun. I like the idea of like, disconnecting, just saying to yourself, I'm just gonna have fun. I'm not gonna like, bring all this baggage into it. It's hard. It's easier said than done.

• 1:14:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:14:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I think that's how the experiment plays into it, too, because you are supposed to go into it. That's not my person. I'm not even allowed to date them right now. You know, this is just casual, low stakes. So that helps, too. And if you're going on a date every night of the week, three nights a week, I can imagine, but I guess some people are doing that. I mean, maybe you're doing too much. Right. You know, like, if you're genuinely fatigued, not even because of the people you're dating, just because of the time commitment and your schedule, you can change that. Right. You don't want to go into that either. Who was it? A friend recently went out with a guy and like, he just kept talking about how tired he was, like, leaning up to it. And she was like, do you not want to go? Like,

• 1:15:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, this, a friend of ours, he, he like, moved the date, which she was like, that's fine, we can do it another night. It's a second date, it's not that big of a deal. But then all day was like, I'm so tired. And then he told her he was hungover. And she was like, I don't really, she said to me that like, made me laugh. She said, I don't really want to give the impression that I'm so chill, because I'm not. And so I don't really want to like, keep hearing this stuff from him. I don't know what to say to him. Say to him, if you don't feel good, let's reschedule.

• 1:15:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Stop waterboarding me with how you don't feel, how you feel bad. I don't, I'm not trying to hear this.

• 1:15:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  And again, we talked about like, maybe he was just like, well, she's a partier and I'm relating on being hungover. But like at a certain age.

• 1:15:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Showing interest in what she cares about.

• 1:15:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  What she does. Yeah. Like, but I, I joked about this because my first date, which I was unclear if it was even a date. I didn't know what it was with my ex, like 10 years ago now at this point, we were meeting for lunch. It's such a weird story. Again, I was like, is this, are we networking or what? He told me he was hungover and I remember being on the way to meet him and being like, do you want to reschedule? Like, what are you, I don't, okay. Why are you sharing this? Like, it's different if you get there and you're upbeat and you're like, I gotta be honest, last night was, was a late night or something like that. But to preface it.

• 1:16:22Rayna Greenberg?

  No, it's crazy. You know what it kind of reminds me of is people that put on their dating app profile that like, they think it's stupid to have a dating app profile. They're like, I can't believe I'm going to find somebody on here. I'm just like, people. Have you never seen this before? I feel like I've seen this from people that are just like, if you have a question, just ask me. I, I can't believe I'm on a dating app. You're just like, why are we starting your activity?

• 1:16:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like you're not supposed to, on dating apps, lead with what you don't want.

• 1:16:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Right.

• 1:16:48Speaker 00

  Like.

• 1:16:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. You can just use AI, reframe what you don't want into a positive statement.

• 1:16:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's so true. Is that something you need to, you work with clients? Like, or do you pick up on like an overall cynicism negativity that needs to be shifted?

• 1:17:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. So like, I'll pick out the pattern. Like it's, human beings are pretty predictable. So I can tell what people's things are. Right? Like I have one client, I'm like, oh, like you keep shooting way too low. And that's why you date these people that treat you like crap because internally you don't actually see how you are on the outside. Like you, you're operating from like a low self-esteem world. And like, her experiment was, I'm like, you need to go and approach a guy that you think is outside of your league.

• 1:17:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh.

• 1:17:31Speaker 00

  Right? And then I'll have another client. I'm like, you are not interested in people. Like you're the type of person who's like looking over the shoulder. Like this was a friend turned client. I'm like, you don't ask questions. You don't care. And so we worked on that first and it actually changed her relationship even with her employees. And like, she's a likeable person now. I'm like, before I'm like, you weren't that likeable. Yeah.

• 1:17:52Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that's, somebody needs to tell you.

• 1:17:54Speaker 00

  Well.

• 1:17:54Rayna Greenberg?

  If somebody's paying for any advice.

• 1:17:56Speaker 00

  I'm direct. Like, I'm not gonna sugarcoat and be like, oh my God, you're amazing. I'm like, there's a thing that you're doing and it's not working. It's not because

• 1:18:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:18:02Speaker 00

  you're flawed as a human being. It's a behavior or a habit that you've picked up and you reinforced over and over again.

• 1:18:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  So men not asking questions on dates, this is a epidemic.

• 1:18:13Speaker 00

  It's men and women.

• 1:18:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Of course. No, of course.

• 1:18:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  I agree, but we hear from women.

• 1:18:18Speaker 00

  Right, yeah.

• 1:18:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  So with those guys, and women too, I guess, is there hope? Or is this a person who genuinely has no curiosity or interest in other people?

• 1:18:27Speaker 00

  So you have to be able to discern if someone's just being arrogant and like, you know, having their own podcast episode, like, while they're going on a date with you? Or are they nervous? Because what happens is sometimes guys who are not good at dating.

• 1:18:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:18:41Speaker 00

  They're like, trying to impress you. So they're like, oh, like, here are my successes, like, my trophies. And they think that they're doing that to make you like them. So you just, you have to be able to use your intuition to discern what type of person it is.

• 1:18:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, got it. And you said, when we first started this conversation, that there's like, most people are one to two shifts away from just being in a better place overall. Could those be a multitude of things?

• 1:19:08Speaker 00

  A multitude of things, right?

• 1:19:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Depending on what.

• 1:19:09Speaker 00

  I would see a big common one, though. It is who they're choosing.

• 1:19:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:19:13Speaker 00

  So there's a reason why they're choosing a certain emotional experience.

• 1:19:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yep.

• 1:19:17Speaker 00

  Wrapped up in different packages.

• 1:19:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:19:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Great. This flew by.

• 1:19:20Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:19:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, this really did.

• 1:19:22Rayna Greenberg?

  And we could talk to you forever, but I really, really encourage people to buy this book. And I was saying to you before we started recording, Ashley and I read so many books about dating and relationships. And sometimes I see the same advice recycled over and over again. And this is a really great, actionable book about how to first start with yourself, and then start dating, and just challenge yourself to like, break these patterns and find better people. And you've just done such a great job.

• 1:19:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. I mean, you really, you started this breakup bootcamp, and now this is this, I like the term bootcamp, it doesn't have to be intimidating or scary, but you're like, you gotta do the work. And if you're not willing to, this isn't for you. Take it or don't.

• 1:20:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, so I just love your outlook and these. Program strategies, everything you've developed.

• 1:20:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Thank you.

• 1:20:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  On your own.

• 1:20:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Thank you.

• 1:20:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  So yeah, you're just wonderful. And we of course encourage everyone to get the book tomorrow.

• 1:20:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, the book's out tomorrow and tell everybody where they can find you everywhere.

• 1:20:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm at Miss Amy Chan and I actually have like a first date assessment and partnership formula on my website. So missamychan.com/unsingle.

• 1:20:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Amazing. Okay. And you guys know where to find us. Girlsgottoe.com, Girlsgottoe Podcast on Instagram and Tik Tok. I am Ash Hess on Instagram and Tik Tok. Raina is Rayna Greenberg. RainaGreenberg.com for tour tickets. My special will debut this Thursday. I already mentioned this, of course, a million times, but just to leave you guys with that. So you can watch it live, interactive, Thursday, 8 p.m. Eastern Time on YouTube. Link is in my bio. Link's been everywhere at this point. You've seen it. And then if you want to watch it on May 1st, it will be on Prime Video. So yeah. And of course you can watch full video of our episodes on Spotify and YouTube and we'll see you Thursday.

• 1:21:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a good week, guys.

• 1:21:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Bye.

• 1:21:33Speaker 03

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