20VC: Unity 3D's David Helgason on Building a $bn Business, Getting Funded By Sequoia and Powering The Pokemon Revolution

David Helgason is the Founder and Board Member @ Unity 3D. The company that recently announced a new $181m Series C, valuing the company at $1.5bn. Unity’s platform has revolutionized the game industry by allowing any size studio from Indie to Triple-A to create beautiful and compelling games and experiences and monetize them with their advertising and analytics services. As for David, he served as CEO of Unity from its founding in 2003 right up until 2014 taking the company through numerous funding rounds including from the one and only Sequoia Capital. In Today’s Episode You Will Learn: 1.) How David came to found Unity 3D? 2.) How pivotal was the rise of the App stores to the rise of Unity 3D? What does David make of Apple's recent announcement to add paid search and subscription pricing? 3.) How does David evaluate the current gaming landscape? What does he not like abou the industry and how the major players are operating? 4.) What are David's thoughts on the emerging platforms like AR and VR? How does he incorporate them into Unity's future product roadmap? 5.) How was the fundraising process for David with Unity? How did the Sequoia investment happen and what has it been like to work with them and Roelof Botha? Items Mentioned In Today’s Show: David's Fave Book: Guns, Germs & Steel As always you can follow The Twenty Minute VC, Harry and David on Twitter here! If you would like to see a more colourful side to Harry with many a mojito session, you can follow him on Snapchat here! This episode was brought to you by DesignCrowd, the online marketplace for custom graphic, logo and web design that helps startups, entrepreneurs, web developers and agencies outsource design projects to designers from around the world. How Does It Work? Once you have launched your brief, designers will begin submitting quality designs for you to review. With some constructive feedback, you can quickly generate a large gallery of designs that really do fit your needs. You can have exactly what you need within just three days. Once you have selected your favourite design, you will be sent all the files you require to update your branding. If you don’t like any of the submitted designs, then DesignCrowd offers a money back guarantee. So checkout designcrowd.com/VC and enter the promo code VC100 to get an astonishing $100 off your next project.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  Welcome back to the 20 Minute VC in this very special episode of Founders Friday with your host Harry Stebbings at H Stebbings on Snapchat. Now today's show is immensely pertinent as we welcome David Helgerson, founder and now board member at Unity 3D. Now the pertinence lies in the fact that just last week Unity raised $181 million in Series C funding with the company's valuation reported to be $1.5 billion. So huge congratulations to David for that. But for those that are unaware, Unity's platform has revolutionized the game industry by allowing any size studio from indie to AAA to create beautiful and compelling games and experiences and monetize them with their advertising and analytics services.

• 0:41Harry Stebbings?

  As for David, he served as CEO of Unity from its founding in 2003 right up until 2014, taking the company through numerous funding rounds, including from the one and only Sequoia Capital. I have to also say what an incredible fun episode this was to record and how grateful we are, David, for giving up his time, especially with all the recent news. But before we dive into the episode with David, everyone knows that UI and aesthetics are a key element of will someone or won't someone check out your business card, site, logo design? It's all down to design and that's where Design Crowd come in. Design Crowd is an online marketplace for custom graphic, logo and web design that helps startups, entrepreneurs, web developers and agencies outsource design projects to over

• 1:23Harry Stebbings?

  500,000 registered designers who can bring their creative flair to your project and allow you to go from launching a project to design completion in just three days whilst also avoiding the usual exorbitant agency fees that we all hate so much. Perfect for entrepreneurs and small businesses using Design Crowd to outsource logo, site design or even print design. So check them out on designcrowd.com/vc and enter the promo code VC100 for an incredible $100 off. However, it's now time for me to pass over the mic to the main man, David Helgerson at Unity 3D.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  David, welcome to the show. It's absolutely fantastic to have you on. I'm a big fan of Unity 3D, so thank you so much for joining me today.

• 2:13Speaker 03

  Oh, well, thank you, thank you.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Now, I'd like to start off today with a topic I normally avoid, and that's education. So, so talk to me, dropping out of school four times, but but keeping going with three guys in a basement for eight years.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  I told you this schedule wasn't all me. So what are the origins for you?

• 2:32Speaker 03

  Well, oh my god. So Icelandic by birth, sort of found my way to Denmark as a kid, you know, mother's a journalist and traveling and so on. Yeah, like, you know, I was programming since I was like eleven or something. I wasn't like the most genius of programmers, but I was pretty damn good. And sort of built a little bit of a, you know, kind of fleshling career of that after high school. But my plan was always to be kind of a real scholar and, you know, I come from sort of university. Attempted a number of things. I studied psychology and Arabic and physics and two weeks of computer science. And if I put it all together, it's still not like one bachelor's degree, neither by time nor by points.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  Don't worry, I don't have that on you either, so that's not a problem.

• 3:19Speaker 03

  So, I don't know, you know, I'm a very curious person. I was just kind of exploring different things, but I always kept going back to programming. That was my problem. And at some point, I looked at my life and I was like, screw this. And if I'm gonna be successful at anything, I better do something I'm like, I seem to have sort of infinite patience and passion for, and that was actually programming. So that's kind of what I went back to. But I'd sort of caught the, I don't know, start of this, like a kind of a big word at this point, but like kind of company bug. So I wanted to kind of, you know, found companies. So I founded a number of completely insignificant companies. One of them had sort of a, was basically a consulting company, really boring. But that sort of dragged me into this direction of then meeting an old friend and deciding to start a game company with him. Which we didn't actually, but that's sort of the beginning of it.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  And so how did that develop then? Because the early years weren't always the easiest for you. So I'm intrigued to hear in the early stages of the of the gaming company that transitioned into Unity 3D. How you kind of kept positive in the face of such persistent positive feedback?

• 4:24Speaker 02

  What was your driving motivation telling you that this was the right direction?

• 4:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's it's it's really hard. So, you know, so my two co-founders are kind of writing codes together as early as two thousand one and two. And they invite me to be the third kind of coder. And then eventually I sort of was kind of given the founder title a bit later. Uh, in the Jan- in January of three, right? So for me, it's thirteen and a half years and those guys have actually been going even longer. And first of all, we're just gonna make games and it seems like an awesome idea. So we were building this technology to make the game and building and building and building. Eventually, we we sort of found that uh, we sort of realized that we had a passion for the tech and and that we built kind of a platform that didn't do much, but it had some nice aspects and it was usable, like it was user friendly. Uh, we were kind of Mac guys and there was some inspiration there, I think. And then

• 5:12Speaker 03

  we sort of started exploring that idea and realized that, you know, if you have a user friendly platform and everything else in your industry is really not user friendly, you could maybe instead of, you know, selling it a few times for a lot of money, you could sell it for a little bit of money a lot of times. And and from that, the idea of democratizing game development, which was sort of the headline we we really kind of uh, found the company on, was possible and and and and that sort of dragged us in. And I think it just kind of, I don't know, we caught that bug of like that seemed like a really badass idea to do. One of my co-founders, Nicholas Francis, he he had this kind of um, he came up with this idea that, you know, people um, are attracted to creating the kind of media that they consume as children and we had all played games.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  And it seemed logical that there would be some, I don't know, he well, he's he felt that there would be kind of a an explosion of of small uh, game developers, indie game developers. An incredible prediction, actually. And and we sort of went that direction, basically, you know, with the idea that we would power that revolution. Uh, which, you know, we didn't create it, but we were definitely part of of helping it uh, further, which is wonderful.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  And your your co-founder, quite rightly there, and incredibly, as he said, predicted the kind of proliferation of of micro game developers. Yeah. I want to discuss the rise of the App Store now, uh, which I to me really is brought about the decentralization of gaming from key players to to everyone. Um, so how so how do you view then the rise of the? App Store and its role alongside the rise of Unity.

• 6:36Speaker 03

  Well, one of the sort of ideas also that the company was founded on was that tools can revolutionize industry. So, you know, we were actually looking back at the, you know, the home studio and how that affected the music industry. And we were looking at how digital video affected filmmaking. And the sort of the bit we missed actually is that, you know, distribution is kind of the other part. Tooling is one and distribution is the other. So we created tooling, but frankly, distribution has to happen as well. And of course, you know, Apple kind of revolutionized that with the App Store. I don't know, I was looking at the numbers and sort of exploring the idea a bit at some point. And I realized that, you know, if you had a product seven years ago, you could take it to the internet and.

• 7:16Speaker 03

  I mean, in theory, you could, you could find a number of people, but it was, there was a lot of friction and, you know, payment systems and all kinds of kind of problems finding these audiences. Or if you had, you know, a lot of money, you would go on prime time television and you would sort of address a hundred million people. And with the App Store, well, plus, you know, Google Play and a couple of others, you can address something like, what, three billion people with, with basically no money. It's outrageous. So it's like, you know, it's like thirty times larger than it was.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  So do you, do you think the rise of Unity would have been possible without the democratization of the App Store?

• 7:48Speaker 03

  No, no, no. I mean, like, we would have, we were fine. I mean, we were actually kind of a growing company. We, you know, we were paying the bills and, you know, we were like seventeen people or something by the time the App Store opened. So, I mean, we might have been a fine, like a real company and, and, you know, there's no reason to think that we're gonna die or anything. But no, I like the, um, the, the, the rise of the iPhone first and the App Store and that was just kind of the perfect. You know, I think in space travel, they call it gravity lift for us. We just kind of managed to hit that perfectly. And, and for various reasons, nobody else really cared about it for a while. So we were, we were kind of the only player there for, for quite a while. Um, of course, you know, because all the money was in console gaming, which is a very different everything, actually.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  And I'm, I'm too intrigued there. Do you think we've seen the end of console gaming? I, I don't, I haven't seen it, no?

• 8:30Speaker 03

  No, I mean, like, there's the sort of, there's been that rumor and expectation, but, I mean, the console guys kind of reinvented themselves. They opened their platforms up more. Seems to be no end to that, which, you know, I think is good because frankly, um, you know, for the gaming industry, having like a lot of different ways of making money, a lot of different types of products is just really healthy for everybody.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  And I I'm intrigued, obviously, we talked about the App Store there, and Apple recently uh did made two big adjustments to the App Store in terms of paid search and the subscriptions. Um, so how do you think that affects the gaming industry? I know a friend of mine, Niccolo de Masiac glue is is very excited for that. Um, what is your take on it?

• 9:08Speaker 03

  I I don't know yet, except like, it's really just healthy for the ecosystem to have like many different ways of monetizing and, you know, it's it's become a bit too much of a monoculture in some ways, like the the the people that are making all the money are doing the same thing with microtransactions in a fairly sort of a predictable way. And and that's not, again, it's not really healthy for the ecosystem. It's wonderful for them, but but it's really wonderful that that we may be able to see a world where this kind of slightly old fashioned by now, subscription relationship to their customers. Uh, this is how like N M Os were back, you know, when we were younger.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, how did you establish a pricing model in the early days? You you were completely, never, you were completely.

• 9:44Speaker 03

  It's like the finger in the air, like.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, how much can I get for this?

• 9:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I mean, actually, we were even more naive. Now, okay, well, okay, let's see. We picked the macromedia business model, which, you know, is sort of like morphed into the Adobe Business Model, which was, you know, professional software, roughly a thousand bucks per user, and then you might sort of upgrade once every few years. And we had read an article by, the guy was probably the best software blogger at the time, Joel Spolsky, went on to create things like.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Stan Kaisersfleisch.

• 10:14Speaker 03

  Exactly. And and and a very brilliant guy. And he had written this, you know, kind of a blog about software pricing. And, you know, it's very obvious, I guess, for most people now, but but we were blown away by this idea that, you know, there's two prices, there's up to a thousand bucks, and then there is over a hundred thousand dollars. If you if you go past a thousand bucks, then you have to kind of go and do a dog and pony show, and you're just going to support them and hang out with them. And by the time you've done that, you have to kind of charge them, you know, closer to a hundred thousand dollars. So we we paid the lower price.

• 10:45Speaker 03

  And that was pretty much it. We've never really changed it. I mean, we went to subscription later, but the prices are sort of more or less the same. It's just, you know, they're charged differently.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  And we spoke about the app store there, and I want to move to kind of a slightly different demographic, but still a platform on the whole, and that's emerging platforms in gaming. Uh, we hear a lot of excitement around VR. I'm intrigued as to how Unity altered their strategy to fit changing platforms.

• 11:09Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  And kind of what the challenges are of this when there's many platforms.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  So, I mean, so, so we, we, we went multi-platform extremely early and, and dramatically so, you know, whereas other people would, you know, try to target three, four different platforms. We went to kind of seven and ten and twenty five at this point, which is sort of an impossible feat. And also it took like years and years of engineering and re-engineering, just the, the development process and the release process. Uh, but it's, it is a competitive advantage because nobody else can really address the, the number of platforms we can. With, you know, VR and AR, which is sort of a number of platforms, you can sort of fit it into mobile VR, room scale VR, and then AR, which, you know, has to be mobile. These are exciting platforms. They're very new. They're, the numbers are small. I mean, like, you know, even if you're really generous with, with VR.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  You know, it's something like one one thousandth of the mobile ecosystem, right?

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Right? So it's not a big business model yet.

• 12:06Speaker 03

  Uh, it, it cannot be, right? But it's important for a number of reasons. And, and, and one thing is sort of a, if you imagine like the, the growth, the early growth of a platform as a sort of a, the beginning of an S curve, which look exponent, looks exponential for a while. Then the sort of developer adoption of that platform actually completes, sorry, it's hard to explain over, or some maybe. But like, if you, if you imagine the sort of lower side of a lentil, like the, the developer adoption of that, of that platform is actually the, like the upper, uh, the completes the lentil on the upside. The growth of developers happens early in the platform's lifecycle and then slows down before the platform has finished growing. So, so for this reason, like VR is very important to us. Our customers want to be there and so we have to be there early. So we, we went there early.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Are there any other platforms that you're particularly excited about?

• 12:50Speaker 03

  Um, so now, now we sort of talk VR. I mean, AR is sort of slightly further out yet, right? Even fewer devices are in the market. It's, it's more prototypy than, than VR. It's gonna be massive. It's gonna be massive in a very different way. Whereas VR, I think, is all entertainment. Business uses that are sort of entertainment-like, like, you know, kind of looking at products and things like that. Whereas AR, AR is gonna be all business, as far as I can tell.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  And I, I wanna discuss the fundraising process with you now. Um, so let's start off with the, how it differed from stage to stage. So from seed to where you are now, how, how's the fundraising differed?

• 13:25Speaker 03

  Sure. So, I mean, we followed sort of a, a, maybe a slightly unusual path as in we, well, I don't know. We tried and failed to raise venture capital. That's not, maybe that's unusual. But then we, then we went and borrowed money from, from, from somebody's father, from the bank. And then we sort of just built a profitable business in the sort of old-fashioned way back in the day, right? So we launched, you know, five and, and basically we never really spent money. So we, we were always kind of break even, profitable-ish. We tried, we had a multiple sort of a dry run set of raising venture capital because it was very frustrating to have, like, basically, so, so extremely constrained cash flow. But we had to do it, so we did it. And frankly, like, if you look at the, like, what we're doing, it was like a, objectively speaking, it was a small industry, like, the market didn't exist. So, so it made sense not to invest in us, and nobody did.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Do you think that was it? It was the market size?

• 14:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, just like, we were this small, kind of weirdo team out of Copenhagen. And we, we were not even game industry veterans, and we had few customers. And the growth was kind of there. If you look at the, even the early numbers, they were growing. Uh, I mean, you know, we had years of sort of hundreds, two hundred percent growth.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  So, so what was the turning point then, when, when VC money did start to flow in for you?

• 14:32Speaker 03

  So, when we sort of had become this kind of, you know, ten, fifteen people, we decided, okay, now we have to raise venture capital. We, we hired a banker, which is not the usual thing, and it's not necessarily even something I suggest people to do. Not the standard model, basically, right? So, but we, uh, we, um, we found this guy who was actually a venture capitalist now, Paul Hayden at, with London Venture Partners. And, and he, he traveled with me and he kind of wrote the financial model, which we didn't have, we didn't have, we didn't have a CFO when, when we met him. Sort of wrote the financial model with us, which we ran the company on that financial model for four years. Even bizarrely enough, hitting these numbers. But so we traveled, the financial crisis happened, everything was kind of slow. The app store opens up, we launched for that. And that's when the Silicon Valley and the US VCs started noticing us.

• 15:16Speaker 03

  We had term sheets from various people, including Dawn, actually, back in the day, before my brother joined there. And we would have taken some decent term sheets from some decent people. But I was so unbelievably lucky that I kind of almost on the street. I mean, it was sort of in a random meeting, met a woman called Diane Green, who was back then kind of between roles. She had sold IPO and then left her company VMware, which she founded and ran. And was just sort of advising startups. I ran into her, she got really excited and offered to be an angel investor in the company. And then when I told her I wanted to raise a real round, she introduced me to a couple of top tier VCs, including Sequoia,

• 15:59Speaker 03

  who then came in possibly both because Unity was a cool company, but definitely also because she was sitting in the room with a rise smile.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Nudging things along. And how was that experience for you? Obviously, Sequoia, the holy grail of VC.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  They're wonderful. They're just absolutely, utterly, completely amazing.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Were you terrified making the pitch?

• 16:19Speaker 03

  In a way, no, because the thing, but we had term sheets by that time. In fact, we were kind of on the verge of picking one. So it was sort of a weird kind of extra bonus. You know, I knew my pitch by heart by then, I'd been doing it for months. And the good thing was the company had actually done well while pitching. So like, you know, there's a story, like it was sort of a clear, good story with good numbers. Yeah, so it was Rula Boita, former CFO, PayPal CFO, who was there in the room. Anyway, I mean, they're amazing. Anyway, he just got up afterwards and kind of almost hugged me. And then they invited me for a partner meeting the following Monday. And then a week later, we had a term sheet from them.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  So do you think it's definitely right to save kind of the VCs that you most want in on your round later on in your pitching process, so you have time to perfect that pitch?

• 17:06Speaker 03

  Yes, there's an argument for that. It is a very transparent world or like sort of leaky world. So, you know, you meet a lot of people, they start turning it down. That can leak out. So there's, there's, there's sort of, you can argue that both ways. One thing I found though with maybe myself and, and other people with sort of good companies. The good VCs are, are actually just that much better at recognizing them and, and daring to bet on companies that are like slightly sort of out of shape, but have great potential. They're just more confident, I think.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  I guess what was your selection criteria for your VCs? What made you think?

• 17:38Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, they selected us to some level. And by the way, what I didn't say is we got forty five rejections or so. And then in the end, we had five term sheets and it was very biased towards the better VCs, like though we had like two very good VCs and then uh sort of like a handful of lesser ones. And we pitched very broadly, so.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  So do you think there's a commonality between the best VCs having a very contrarian approach to being willing to adopt?

• 18:04Speaker 03

  At least they're just, yeah, I guess they're more brave. I mean, they have maybe less to lose. I mean, like, like a firm like Sequoia, they will, you know, they have to do pretty badly for pretty long before they have a problem raising a new fund, for instance. So, so they're just, I think they're just less worried about the individual deal. I've, I've worked with them later as well and yeah, they're, they're very brave when it comes to sort of, you know, striking on, on, uh, working on VCs and things like that.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  And, and, and moving from VC funding and before we get, jump into the quickfire, I want to touch on independency and obviously you've done incredibly well. I'm sure there have been acquisition offers. So, so what's been your thought on staying independent, not selling?

• 18:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. So, I mean, of, of course, like any good company, you know, we have, you know, you have approaches from time to time. And I mean, we're sort of pretty much run on this idea that, you know, if, like, we wanted to democratize game development, most decisions were sort of run through that filter. You know, there was a couple of times when we could have probably made some money, but you know, the, the acquire was clearly not aligned with that idea. Uh, not because they're bad people, just because they're completely different interests. And, and, and in that case, it was very easy to turn down. Yeah. Also, there's just this intuition that we were on to the right thing and why stop now? Plus, maybe there was a little bit of a, you know, kind of a pride and, and just sort of seeing how far we could take it.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  But I wanna jump into a quick fire round with you now, so I say.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, go on, it's awesome.

• 19:22Speaker 03

  The rest of the, the rest of this has been quick fired too.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Uh, so your favorite book and why?

• 19:26Speaker 03

  Oh my goodness, you know, something like Guns, Germs and Steel or something. It's not a business book at all. Uh, I mean, there's pretty good business books with good ideas, you know, I, I, I think some of my thinking is being first by, you know, book like Blue Ocean Strategy and stuff like that, but, but Guns, Germs and Steel just kind of lays out a view of the history of the world through technology and germs.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  It's a bit, it's a bit different from Hard Thing About Hard Things, I must admit.

• 19:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is. So, so just a book that's stuck in my brain because it's sort of, it's just a kind of a big kind of a macro view of how kind of, in, in this book's case, kind of civilizations kind of compete in sort of big systemic ways. And I think it's sort of influenced how I think about competition uh between companies, if that makes sense. It's, it's, by the way, a genius book. Whether, whether the thesis is right or wrong, nobody really knows, of course, but it's, it's good.

• 20:18Speaker 02

  Okay, you've just added a, a, another question to the quick fire. Competitive landscape and competition. Is it a good thing in Star Subs or is P T all right? Is monopolies the right thing? In, in sixty seconds, go.

• 20:31Speaker 03

  I, I mean, you're striving for monopoly, uh, you know, and then afterwards you don't have one because, you know, there's rarely any. But, you know, and along the way, you, you bumped up, bumped off a few competitors and you have some new ones and you know, there's some theories that are probably right, that competition is healthy for the sort of, you know, to keep, keep everyone taught and, and lean and mean. But yeah, you're striving for monopoly every day.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Yep. And if you could start the process again, what would you change?

• 20:58Speaker 03

  Ooh, like nothing, like don't even breathe differently. We were pretty clever, like we did some really good things. We made some great decisions. We worked unbelievably hard. Uh, we hired some absolutely wonderful people also very early on that were sort of instrumental in, in, in, in making the company work. There was also so much luck involved. Moments of luck where we just kind of almost, you know, had we sneezed, um, you know, we might have died.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  Who's been your biggest mentor then throughout the journey in your career?

• 21:25Speaker 03

  So I've I've been lucky with a lot of wonderful people that were sort of willing to give their time and and advice and knowledge, but no question, it was Diane Green. Very busy these days now that she's running like a big piece of Google. But no, she was wonderful, just to kind of mentor me in sort of how to build a real software company.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  And then put an ultimate question, biggest challenge for you today, what what kind of is your daily struggle?

• 21:51Speaker 03

  So so, you know, I I stepped back from the CEO seat more than a year and a half ago now. You know, somebody else now has the the headache of running a company that has just passed a thousand employees. By the way, a very, very brilliant CEO that I have some, you know, take some pride in having brought into the board first. And then we managed to convince him to take the CEO seat. I'm just sort of a somebody who is trying to be very close with the company and know what's going on and help connect dots inside and outside the company. You know, advise some people, like or some teams on on product decisions and business decisions. But it's not my struggle, so I can't claim that it's very stressful for me. And plus, the company is doing very well, which is wonderful.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Well, well, then on that note, I want to finish today. On the next five years for you and the roadmap that's ahead, is there another company in you?

• 22:40Speaker 03

  As a founder, almost certainly not. Plus, Unity keeps me busy. It's just like it's sort of a big B stuff of interesting projects and innovation and and teams and brilliant people that it sort of keeps me occupied. No, it's hard. It's hard for me to imagine that I go out and like really create a new one. That's almost impossible, by the way. But but I do. I do. I do work with a number of startups and I I love working with crazy entrepreneurs that are that are working hard and creating new things. So I stay close with a number of them and it's it's it's very inspiring.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Well, David, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. Having had Ari on, it really is fantastic to hear your journey. So thanks so much for sharing with us.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for the chat.

• 23:23Harry Stebbings?

  I told you that was a fun episode with David and again a huge thank you to him for giving up his time today to be on the show. Really was so fantastic to hear his story and the rise of Unity 3D. And if you're loving all things from us at the 20 Minute VC then you can add me on Snapchat at H Stebbings or you can sign up for the newsletter on the20minutavec.com so you never have to miss an episode or an update from us. But before we leave you stay, do not forget to head over to designcrowd.com/vc. They are the online marketplace for custom graphic, logo and web design and they help startups, entrepreneurs, web developers and even agencies outsource design projects. With over 500,000 registered designers, they bring their creative flair to your project

• 24:05Harry Stebbings?

  and allow you to go from launching a project to design completion in just three days whilst also avoiding the usual exorbitant agency fees. All you have to do is launch a project, watch as hundreds of incredible designs come in and then you select your favourites, all in just three days. This is perfect for entrepreneurs and small businesses needing fast turnaround times. So check them out on designcrowd.com/vc and enter the promo code VC100 for an incredible $100 off. As always, I'm so grateful for all your support and we cannot wait to bring you next week's show with Semel Shah at Haystack.