Hermes Here, Admitting All My Sins: the Remix

Michaela here giving you a remix of past episodes, looking at three different times that we have explored Hermes here on the show. From the Homeric Hymn, to Emily Hauser's How Women Became Poets, to Aeschylus' Prometheus Bound we are examining the ways that Hermes appears within antiquity. He is an interesting character for sure, and has a lot of different paths you could take to understand him. I love him for all his trickery, his psychopomp-ness, and just generally he seems like a fun guy. Perhaps a problematic fav, but also the guy I chose to be called by on the show so. Tune in next week for the beginning of a new history series with me! Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com group trip.

• 0:35Speaker 01

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• 1:40Liv Albert?

  Hello all. Um, it's Tuesday. It's a Tuesday episode time and I had promises for this week and those promises are going to have to extend to next week. Because well, today is a Monday, uh, the 24th of November and I had the most delightfully difficult midterm imaginable. I didn't even quite know how to study for it. And I had a rough week last week with some personal things.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Not going to get into, but regardless, um, basically, yeah, school happened, life happened. But work still needs to happen and I still, you know, want to get you guys something delightful and fun. To listen to on your day, wherever you are planning to do, I don't know, going to work, uh, cleaning. Oh, am I someone's cleaning buddy? That's wild. Anyways, um. Oh yeah. So I had a midterm today and um, essentially it was, it was for my Latin class. And we had to do literary analysis of Latin. Um, that is, you know, full on literary analysis in a separate language.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Um, so I wasn't writing in, in Latin, but I had to read the Latin and then discuss what the author was doing with his choice of words, constructions, et cetera, et cetera. It was something else. Let me tell you that I would, I am like so anxious about it. I ended up taking two Laraz Pams. Yes, I am that mom from season three of White Lotus. And my brain is just non-functional right now because it's all out of hand up. Anyways, regardless of that, we're still going to get you something fun. So I thought, why don't, why don't I just share some of my delightful favorite things here and, and we can uh,

• 3:35Speaker 02

  get into it together and have fun and enjoy and yada, yada, yada. Can you tell? I don't have a script for this and I am honest to God, just going. Oh, yeah. Well, you know what? Let's, let's, let's get into it, y'all.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Hermes here, admitting all my sins, the remix.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  To start with it, we are going to be looking at the Homeric hymn to none other but Hermes, of course. I love this hymn for various reasons, not just because it's Hermes, mostly because it's Hermes, okay? Maybe I'm a little bit predictable in those ways. Regardless, it is fun, it is weird, it is, what is this baby doing, this literal infant, what is he doing? Well, so up to this point, we're not going to listen to the whole thing, but up to this point, you know Hermes was living his little baby life, his first day upon this world, and he decided to steal his brother's cows, which is so much fun. And what sibling activity is this? Anyways, his brother has since

• 5:12Speaker 02

  discovered that his cows have been stolen. And, well, let's find out what happens.

• 5:29Liv Albert?

  Now, when the son of Zeus and Maya saw Apollo in a rage about his cattle, he snuggled down in his fragrant swaddling clothes, and as wood ash covers over the deep embers of tree stumps, so Hermes cuddled himself up when he saw the far shooter. He squeezed head and hands and feet together in a small space, like a newborn child seeking sweet sleep, though in truth, he was wide awake, and he kept his liar under his armpit. But the son of Leto was aware and failed not to perceive the beautiful mountain nymph and her dear son, albeit a little child, and swathed so craftily. He peered in every corner of the great dwelling, and, taking a bright key, he opened three closets full of nectar and lovely ambrosia, and much gold and silver

• 6:13Liv Albert?

  was stored in them, and many garments of the nymph, some purple and some silvery white, such as are kept in the sacred houses of the blessed gods. Then, after the son of Leto had searched out the recesses of the great house, he spake to glorious Hermes. Child, lying in the cradle, make haste and tell me of my cattle, or we two will soon fall out angrily, for I will take and cast you into dusty Tartarus, and awful hopeless darkness; and neither your mother nor your father shall free you or bring you up again to the light, but you will wander under the earth and be the leader amongst little folk. Then Hermes answered him with crafty words: Son of Leto, what harsh words are these you have spoken?

• 6:57Liv Albert?

  And is it cattle of the field you are coming here to seek? I have not seen them; I have not heard of them; no one has told me of them; I cannot give news of them, nor win the reward for news. Am I like a cattle lifter, a stalwart person? This is no task for me; rather, I care for other things. I care for sleep, and milk for my mother's breast, and wrappings round my shoulders, and warm baths. Let no one hear the cause of this dispute, for this would be a great marvel indeed among the deathless gods, that a child newly born should pass in through the fore part of the house with cattle of the field? Herein you speak extravagantly. I was born yesterday, and my feet are soft and the ground beneath is rough. Nevertheless, if you will have it so,

• 7:41Liv Albert?

  I will swear a great oath by my father's head, and vow that neither am I guilty myself, neither have I seen any other who stole your cows, whatever cows may be, for I know them only by hearsay. So then, said Hermes, shooting quick glances from his eyes, and he kept raising his brows and looking this way and that, whistling long and listening to Apollo's story as to an idle tale. But when far-working Apollo laughed softly and said to him: Oh, rogue, deceiver, crafty in heart! You talk so innocently that I must surely believe that you have broken into many a well-built house and stripped more than one poor wretch bear this night, gathering his goods together all over the house without noise.

• 8:24Liv Albert?

  You will plague many a lonely herdsman in mountain glades when you come on herds and thick-fleeced sheep, and have a hankering after flesh. But come now, if you would not sleep your last and lay to sleep, get out of your cradle, you comrade of dark night; surely hereafter this shall be your title amongst the deathless gods, to be called the prince of robbers continually.

• 8:47Liv Albert?

  So said Phoebus Apollo, and took the child, and began to carry him. But at that moment, the strong slayer of Argus had his plan, and, while Apollo held him in his hands, sent forth an omen, a hard-worked belly-surf, a rude messenger, and sneezed directly after. And when Apollo heard it, he dropped glorious Hermes out of his hands on the ground, then, sitting down before him, though he was eager to go on his way, he spoke mockingly to Hermes. "Fear not, little swaddling baby, son of Zeus and Maya, I shall find the strong cattle presently by these omens, and you shall lead the way." When Apollo had so said, Kylenian Hermes sprang up quickly, startling in haste. With both hands, he pushed up to his ears the covering that had wrapped around his shoulders,

• 9:31Liv Albert?

  and said, "Where are you carrying me, far-worker, hastiest of all the gods? Is it because of your cattle that you are so angry and harass me? Oh, dear, would that all the sword of oxen might perish, for it is not I who stole your cows, nor did I see another steal them, whatever cows may be, and of that I have only heard report. Nay, give right and take it before Zeus, the son of Cronus." So Hermes the shepherd, and Lido's glorious son, kept stubbornly disputing each article of their quarrel. Apollo speaking truly, not fairly sought to seize the glorious Hermes because of the cows, but he, the Kylenian, tried to deceive the god of the silver bow with tricks and cunning words.

• 10:15Liv Albert?

  But when, though he had many wiles, he found the other had as many shifts, he began to walk across the sand, himself in front, while the son of Zeus and Lido came behind. Soon they came, these lovely children of Zeus, to the top of fragrant Olympus, to their father, the son of Cronus, for there were the scales of judgment set before them. There was an assembly on snowy Olympus, and the immortals who perish not were gathering after the hour of gold-throned dawn. Then Hermes and Apollo of the silver bow stood at the knees of Zeus. And Zeus, who thunders on high, spoke to his glorious son, and asked him, "Phoebus, whence come you driving this great spoil, a child newborn that has the look of

• 11:00Liv Albert?

  a herald? This is a weighty matter that has come before the council of the gods." Then the lord, far-working Apollo, answered him, "O my father, you shall soon hear no trifling tale, though you reproach me, that I alone am fond of spoil. Here is a child, a burgling robber, whom I found after a long journey in the hills of Kylene. For my part, I have never seen one so pert, either among the gods, or all men that catch folk unawares throughout the world. He stole after my cows from their meadow, and drove them off in the evening along the shore of the loud-roaring sea, making straight for Pelos. There were double tracks, and wonderful they were, such as one might marvel at, the doing of a clever sprite;

• 11:43Liv Albert?

  for as for the cows, the dark dust kept and showed their footprints leading towards the flowery meadow; but he himself, bewildering creature, crossed the sandy ground outside the path, not on his feet, nor yet on his hands, but furnished with some other means, he trudged his way, wonder of wonders, as though one walked on slender oak-trees. Now, while he followed the cattle across sandy ground, all the tracks showed quite clearly in the dust; but when he had finished the long way across the sand, presently the crowd's tracks and his own could not be traced over the hard ground. But a mortal man noticed him as he drove the wide-browed kind straight towards Pelos, and as soon as he had shut them up quietly, and had gone home by crafty turns and twists,

• 12:27Liv Albert?

  he lay down in his cradle in the gloom of a dim cave, as still as the dark night, so that not even an eagle keenly gazing would have spied him. Much he rubbed his eyes with his hands, as he prepared falsehood, and himself, straightway, said roundly, "I have not seen them, I have not heard of them, no man has told me of them, I could not tell you of them, nor win the reward of telling." When he had so spoken, Phoebus Apollo sat down, but Hermes, on his part, answered, and said, pointing at the son of Cronos, the lord of all the gods. Zeus, my father, indeed I will speak truth to you, for I am truthful and I cannot tell a lie. He came to our house today looking for his shambling cows, as the sun was newly rising.

• 13:12Liv Albert?

  He brought no witnesses with him, nor any of the blessed gods who had seen the theft, but with great violence ordered me to confess, threatening much to throw me into wide Tartarus; for he has the rich bloom of glorious youth, while I was born but yesterday, as he too knows. Nor am I a cattle lifter, a sturdy fellow, believe my tale, for you claim to be my own father. That I did not drive his cows to my house, so may I prosper, nor cross the threshold. This I say truly: I revere Helios greatly and the other gods, and you I love and him I dread. You yourself know that I am not guilty, and I will swear a great oath upon it, no, by these rich-decked porticoes of the gods.

• 13:56Liv Albert?

  And some day I will punish him, strong as he is, for this pitiless inquisition; but now do you help the younger? So spake the Kylenian, the slayer of Argus, while he kept shooting sidelong glances and kept his swaddling clothes upon his arm, and did not cast them away. But Zeus laughed out loud to see his evil-plodding child well and cunningly denying guilt about the cattle, and he bade them both to be one of mind, and search for the cattle, and guiding Hermes to lead the way, and without mischievousness of heart, to show the place where now he had hidden the strong cattle. Then the son of Cronus bowed his head, and goodly Hermes obeyed him,

• 14:38Liv Albert?

  for the will of Zeus, who holds the aegis, easily prevailed with him. Then the two all-glorious children of Zeus hastened both to sandy Pelos, and reached the ford of Alpheus, and came to the fields and the high-roofed bier, where the beasts were cherished at night-time. Now, while Hermes went to the cave in the rock and began to drive out the strong cattle, the son of Leto, looking aside, saw the cow hides on the sheer rock, and he asked glorious Hermes at once: "How were you able, you crafty rogue, to flay two cows, newborn and babyish as you are? For my part I dread the strength that will be yours; there is no need you should keep growing long, Kylenian, son of Maya."

• 15:24Liv Albert?

  So saying, Apollo twisted strong wives with his hands, meaning to bind Hermes with firm bands, but the bands would not hold him, and the wives of Osier fell far from him, and began to grow at once from the ground beneath their feet in that very place. And intertwining with one another, they quickly grew and covered all the wild roving cattle by the will of thievish Hermes, so that Apollo was astonished as he gazed. Then the strong slayer of Argus looked furtively upon the ground, with eyes flashing fire, desiring to hide. Very easily he softened the son of all glorious Leto as he would, stern though the far shooter was. He took the lyre upon his left arm,

• 16:06Liv Albert?

  and tried each string in turn with the key, so that it sounded awesomely at his touch. And Phoebus Apollo laughed for joy, for the sweet throb of the marvelous music went to his heart, and a soft longing took hold on his soul as he listened. Then the son of Maya, harping sweetly upon his lyre, took courage and stood at the left hand of Phoebus Apollo. And soon, while he played shrilly on his lyre, he lifted up his voice and sang, and lovely was the sound of his voice that followed. He sang the story of the deathless gods and of the dark earth, how at first they came to be, and how each one received his portion. First among the gods he honored Namasani, mother of the muses, in his song,

• 16:51Liv Albert?

  for the son of Maya was of her following. And next the goodly son of Zeus hymn'd the rest of the immortals according to their order and age, and told them how each was born, mentioning all in order as he struck the lyre upon his arm. But Apollo was seized with a longing not to be allayed, and he opened his mouth and spoke winged words to Hermes. Slayer of oxen, trickster, busy one, comrade of the feast, this song of yours is worthy of fifty cows, and I believe that presently we shall settle our quarrel peacefully. But come now, tell me this, resourceful son of Maya, has this marvelous thing been with you from your birth, or did some god or mortal man give it to you? A noble gift, and teach you heavenly song?

• 17:36Liv Albert?

  For wonderful is this new uttered sound I hear, the like of which I vow that no man nor God dwelling on Olympus ever yet has known but you, O thievish son of Maia! What skill is this? What song for desperate cares? What way of song? For verily here are three things to hand all at once from which to choose, mirth and love and sweet sleep. And though I am a follower of the Olympian muses who love the dances and the bright path of song, the full-toned chant and ravishing thrill of flutes, yet I never cared for any of those feats of skill at young man's revels, as I do now for this. I am filled with wonder, O son of Zeus, at your sweet playing. But now, since you, though little, have such glorious skill,

• 18:21Liv Albert?

  sit down, dear boy, and respect the words of your elders. For now you shall have renown among the deathless gods, you and your mother also. This I will declare to you exactly. By this shaft of cornelwood, I will surely make you a leader renowned among the deathless gods and fortunate, and will give you glorious gifts, and will not deceive you from first to last. Then Hermes answered him with artful words: You questioned me carefully, O far-worker, yet I am not jealous that you should enter upon my art. This day you shall know it, for I seek to be friendly with you both in thought and word. Now you well know all the things in your heart, since you sit foremost among the deathless gods,

• 19:06Liv Albert?

  O son of Zeus, and are goodly and strong, and why Zeus loves you all as right is, and has given you splendid gifts.

• 19:16Liv Albert?

  And they say that from the utterance of Zeus you have learned both the honors due to the gods, O far-worker, and oracles from Zeus, even all his ordinances. Of all these, I myself have already learned that you have great wealth. Now, you are free to learn whatever you please, but since, as it seems, your heart is so strongly set on playing the lyre, chant and play upon it, and give yourself to merriment, taking this as a gift from me. Do you, my friend, bestow glory on me? Sing well with this clear-voiced companion in your hands, for you are skilled in good, well-ordered utterance. From now on, bring it confidently to the rich feast and lovely dance and glorious revel, a joy by night and by day.

• 20:01Liv Albert?

  Who so with wit and wisdom inquires of it cunningly? Him it teaches through its sound all manner of things that delight the mind, being easily played with gentle familiarities, for it abhors toilsome drudgery. But who so in ignorance inquires of it violently? To him it shatters mere vanity and foolishness. But you are able to learn whatever you please. So then I will give you this lyre, glorious son of Zeus, while I, for my part, will graze down with wild roving cattle the pastures on hill and horse-feeding plain. So shall the cows, covered by the bulls, calve, abundantly both males and females. And now there is no need for you, bargainer though you are, to be furiously angry.

• 20:45Liv Albert?

  When Hermes had said this, he held out the lyre, and Phoebus Apollo took it, and readily put his shining whip in Hermes's hand, and ordained him keeper of herds. The son of Maya received it joyfully, while the glorious son of Leto, the lord far-working Apollo, took the lyre upon his left arm, and tried each string with the key. Awesomely it sounded at the touch of the god, while he sang sweetly to its note.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Hey, that was fun, wasn't it? Um, God, no, I'm serious. Like, this, this hymn is such nonsense in a way that fills me with just all the delight in the world. I do not know how I can possibly explain just how much glee fills my body whenever I read this or see it. And I do want to translate this hymn at some point, because I feel like it would be a really fun one to translate. Um, but if anyone who ever, who does Greek, um, knows. Yeah, Homeric is, it's his own thing. You know, I thought I was bad at Greek. We started with Homeric at UBC.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  I think they were doing an experiment with us. They were like, what if we'd start with Homeric? And you know what I say to that? What if we didn't?

• 22:16Speaker 02

  I didn't know it was gonna be so bad. It was fine. It was fine. I really did enjoy learning the Homeric. And I mean, I, my biggest struggle was just vocabulary. And it still is, but you know, that's life. We're doing Attic now and it's just like such a breeze. I, translating Attic things is just, ah, puts me so at ease. But you know, we saw little baby Hermes getting up to some nonsense and this reminds me of when we had a conversation with Emily Hauser earlier this year, about this hymn and the tortoise.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  And so here it gets a little dark. I'm sorry. I was really upset when I was reading this and had that to learn about, you know, how this is maybe a little bit darker than one might think. And that's a bummer. But what matters is we're learning and you can be disappointed in me for it. I mean, technically I'm not the Hermes that did that. I'm just the Hermes of now who is, you know, would absolutely steal all my brother's cows. So first get me a brother and then make sure he has cows. And then, you know, actually, let's just get into it. Here's Emily.

• 23:44Speaker 03

  Okay, well, let's do the Homeric hymn to Hermes because I feel like it's good to kind of get the male author texts out the way. And then we can start talking about what the women said. Um. So because basically for me, I was like, what I wanted to do was talk about what the women were calling themselves. And and how Sappho, but also other female poets, were dealing with the fact that they didn't have this vocabulary. How they were kind of articulating that sense of identity in a world that kind of had, literally had no space for them. But I realised quite quickly that in order to do that, I needed to set up, like, all of the stuff that had happened. All of the structuring and the ring fencing that had gone on in order to make them feel excluded from those terms.

• 24:25Speaker 03

  So um, one of the examples, and I think that this basically um demonstrates how. Well, I was gonna say, I don't wanna say vicious, but I'm gonna say vicious, how vicious and violent this kind of exclusion of women from poetry was. Is in the American hymn to Hermes, you have um a a just sort of um description of Hermes uh invention of the lyre. And he invents the lyre um from um a tortoise. And actually, like, I've got a copy of the book here, so I can um read you the passage. So he has just been born and he has hopped out of the cave where he's born, because that's what happens to gods.

• 25:04Speaker 03

  Um. And as he kind of like came out of the entrance of the cave, um and now I'm I'm reading um a translation of the text. And he found there a tortoise and so got an endless source of pleasure. Because it was Hermes who first made the tortoise a bard. She came across him at the gates of the courtyard, grazing on the lush grass in front of the house, waddling as she walked. The luck bringing son of Zeus saw her and laughed and said, here's a good omen for me already and not one I'll disregard. Hello, lovely looker, dance beating feast companion, a welcome sight. Where did you get this beautiful plaything, this speckled shell you wear, a tortoise who lives in the mountains?

• 25:45Speaker 03

  But I'll pick you up and take you into the house. You'll be a help to me and I won't slight you. You'll benefit me first of all. It's better to be at home, for there's danger outside. You'll be a safeguard against harmful spells while you live. And if you die, then you'll sing beautifully.

• 26:02Speaker 03

  So, um, the, this, it sounds lighthearted and jokey and that's how all of the male commentators have taken it. But I think particularly in the Greek, but I think it actually came across in the English as well. Um.

• 26:19Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 03

  And I obviously kind of also did that on purpose. It's my, it's my translation. So, but you can hear things that are threats coming in, right?

• 26:27Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 03

  Especially.

• 26:28Liv Albert?

  Well, especially when you know the result.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  Well, when you know the result, exactly.

• 26:31Liv Albert?

  Exactly. Tell the listeners now that like, or is that gonna come in later?

• 26:34Speaker 03

  Well, like literally, literally it goes on and this is like, this is where, so the passage, the passage goes on.

• 26:40Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 03

  This is what he said, and lifting her in both hands, he went back into the house, carrying his lovely plaything. Then he probed into her and with a chisel of grey iron gouged out the life stuff of the mountain dwelling tortoise. As when a quick thought pierces the heart of a man who is visited by constant worries, or when bright glances flashed from the eyes, so glorious Hermes made his work as quick as his word. He cut reed stalks to measure and fix them in, fastening their ends across the back through the shell of the tortoise. Over it, he clever, he cleverly stretched oxide and attached two arms and fitted a bridge across both and stretched the gut strings of seven female sheep. So, um, I think.

• 27:19Liv Albert?

  It's all women.

• 27:20Speaker 03

  It's all women, right?

• 27:21Liv Albert?

  Didn't know that. Wow.

• 27:22Speaker 03

  Yep, the female sheep, exactly. So like, this is clearly a very gendered process. Um, but also like, I think like, as I said, like those threats that are coming in at the beginning where he quotes, he says, it's better to be at home for there's danger outside.

• 27:37Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  Like literally, he's just come out of the cave. It's like, he is picking her up, he's taking her in, and then he probes into her with a chisel and scoops all of the life out of her. Like, I think it's not, I mean, what I was astonished by was that I, I seem to be the first person who has suggested that that is a rape metaphor, but it seems to me inescapable that it is a rape metaphor.

• 28:02Liv Albert?

  I, I keep, the reason I've turned around in my seat is I know I have a different translation, but I'm moving and so many books are in a different spot. And I just wanted to pull up, like, I have a Diane Rayer translation. So I was like, okay, another woman. Um, cause I, I love that hymn, which is why, also partially why, you know, Michaela was mentioning it, but like. I love it because it's silly. The tortoise part has never been my favorite because I was raised to not even ever see the movie Bambi, let alone anything else. But like.

• 28:29Speaker 03

  I love that that was like a principle of your upbringing, you know, be kind, don't watch Bambi.

• 28:33Liv Albert?

  Honestly, I, my mother is hilarious. Just because I was a kid in the 90s, all of the movies were about animals and she was always like, no, because the animal could get hurt. You can't watch it.

• 28:42Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh.

• 28:42Liv Albert?

  She still to this day says if I saw Dumbo, it was at somebody else's house. Anyway, longstanding, um, but you know, it, I have always just thought like, okay, it's a little silly because it's a baby and then, you know, it's the stealing of the cattle that's extra funny and kind of tricking everybody, but. I mean, I, yeah, I've never heard so gendered and the probing. So I was just so curious what like other translations I've read because.

• 29:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:09Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  For sure, for sure. Well, exactly. And, and you know, like, obviously I'm, I'm kind of bringing that out, but I also believe that it's there. I see it there in the Greek. So basically with the, with the book and, and I, that was something I really wanted to do was that I, I feel like. It's so easy for this kind of work to be very distancing if someone doesn't know the Greek. So everything is in translation, everything is translated. But if you want to see the Greek, it's in the footnote. So you can kind of get into, get into it, but like. Um, there's other stuff that makes it kind of quite clear that this is, is kind of, um, sexualized. He calls her a lovely looker. He calls her a dance beating feast companion and that word, the feast companion is hetaira.

• 29:53Liv Albert?

  Of course it is.

• 29:54Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 29:55Liv Albert?

  Of course it is.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  You and your listeners all know that is the kind of prostitute, um, at the symposium. Um, and so like he.

• 30:05Liv Albert?

  The bringing inside to stay safe though, too, that screams of like Athenian women being like kept inside of a home.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. But then also he's like, it, there's, there's such a kind of, um, violence to it because he's saying. There's danger outside and they are meeting outside. So he's literally saying, I am the one who is dangerous to you, but he's pretending to protect her. Right? It's, it's that kind of really toxic. Um, like he's saying, come inside, come inside, you'll be safe here. And then he rapes slash disembowels her. Um, and for me, like the, the kind of the thing, so, so the rape metaphor is kind of the overarching. Shall we say the gender structure of it, but then the the poetic structure of it um or the meta poetic structure.

• 30:52Speaker 03

  Is that I'm sure you heard it starts off by saying it was Hermes who first made the tortoise a bard. Um and uses the word I O don't um so you start off with the tortoise being the one who's the singer. It sounds like the tortoise is the one who has kind of the the equivalent power of song to the male poet. But by the time you get to the end, um Hermes finishes his thing and then he breaks out into song. And in his song, he tells the story of his own glorious episode, his glue, and that's what leads you into the rest of the hymn, right? So it's Hermes telling his own song. So what he's done is he's taken the poetic ability of the living tortoise.

• 31:36Speaker 03

  And he's turned it into a dead liar that he can use to sing, an empty shell, exactly, that he can use. For his own voice to tell his own glorious deeds.

• 31:46Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  Right?

• 31:47Liv Albert?

  That's wild.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:50Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Speaker 03

  So just for me, it was just like, look, you can you can actually see in the progression of the passage. You can see the way in which the poet is acknowledging. Women have access to poetic power. The tortoise is or has the potential to be a bard. But the way that that poetic power gets harnessed is it's taken by men, it's silenced like the nightingale in Hesiod. Uh there's there's rape and physical violence like the tortoise and it is harnessed into the man's song. And it's not a coincidence that all of this sort of metaphorical stuff is happening.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  Within a song that is being sung by a man, so that the male poet is enacting all of those things on the female. As he is describing it happening in his poem.

• 32:42Liv Albert?

  Well, also like it it just screams like he made the tortoise into a muse, right?

• 32:47Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 32:47Liv Albert?

  Yeah, he made her a silent background player.

• 32:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, kind of worse because she's she's an instrument that he is constantly fingering.

• 32:55Liv Albert?

  But I feel like that's what the muses are too, right? Like sing muse of it's like this. Demand.

• 33:02Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 33:02Liv Albert?

  And like, I mean, yeah, the, the fingering that I cut off. And it was like, just very good. But like, yeah, I mean, you're, that's, it's considerably more literal.

• 33:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:12Liv Albert?

  Um, but yeah, like it just, it generally screams muse to me too.

• 33:16Speaker 03

  It does, it does, but I, I see it perhaps slightly differently in that the poet who invokes the muse isn't actually believing that the muse is the one who is singing. There is no fiction that the muse is the one who is singing the Iliad. What the fiction is, or the Odyssey, what the fiction is, although he does say, of course, he does say, sing muse. But it's clearly the poet's voice. Um, what, what the kind of implication is that he wouldn't know as much. He wouldn't have as much stamina, right? That's the kind of passage in, in book two of the Iliad where he says, like, I wouldn't be able to do this if I had ten tongues or whatever. Like, so, so she's kind of, um, giving him strength. She's inspiring him, but she's not the one who's singing.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  And again, it's that fiction that she is singing. Yep, exactly.

• 34:06Liv Albert?

  Right, yeah.

• 34:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:07Liv Albert?

  That like hidden drive and driving force, just like the lyre.

• 34:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:11Liv Albert?

  Like, yeah, sing muse, but it's like this, sing it into me.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  Sing it into me, so I can do it. Exactly. It's exactly right. And it's that same force of appropriation that is happening with the lyre, where it's like, I need an instrument of song. Women are powerful and they have this powerful connection to song. Um, and I have all kinds of like theories about, about why they, they think that, but like, they have this powerful connection. And therefore I need to harness that in some way. And we can create the mechanism of the muse, we can create the mechanism of the lyre. But like, what's super interesting to me is that all of the trappings of song, the inspiration, the instrument, the song itself, they're all feminine in Greek.

• 34:50Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 34:51Speaker 03

  The only thing that is masculine is the poet.

• 35:07Liv Albert?

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• 35:52Liv Albert?

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• 37:44Speaker 02

  Ay yi yi yi yi. Well, I think that one was just, you know, a little bit heavy. It makes me a little less happy to be called Hermes, but it's also a very interesting discussion on language. And, you know, there's, because, you know, there's constantly this debate about, you know, about when it comes to gendered languages of, oh, no, like, you know, this isn't, it doesn't actually have to do with, like, bodily gender. But then you get stuff like this. Or you get words where, you know, things to do with, um, jobs are masculine. You know, a job title is masculine, even if it is, you know, um,

• 38:29Speaker 02

  in form, in the form, the feminine. Like, I'm thinking of Greek. No, I'm Latin. I'm thinking of Latin. Um, and interestingly, I'm thinking of pirata, piratai, which is pirate. But, you know, it's a job, whatever. It's a thing. It's a thing someone is. And it's in the feminine form, but it is a masculine noun. So, I don't know. It's... You know, it's up, it's up for thought. It's, you know, did that, did that lead you anywhere? Change your mind a bit? Was this discussion interesting to you or ring any new bells? Or getting the new gears turning? I, I think that's one of the things I kind of love about both this job and academia in general.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Is how many different viewpoints you come across and are confronted with? And the amount of work that has gone into them to make them

• 39:29Speaker 02

  understandable and good arguments and how true it is, you know, I, I hear that and it makes me think about things differently, right? It makes me think about the Greek I'm reading differently and I'm pay very attention, close attention to things like gender in the language, or it's really actually like the gendered forms as well, like what, you know, when words, it's more common in Greek where something can be both masculine and feminine. Not to say it is not common in Latin, it absolutely is, just I, when I think of it, I think of it as a more Greek thing. And just seeing the different ways it can be presented. There's so many ums right now. I'm so sorry.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  The le razpamp is really working. My brain be brainin'. Let's go to, I don't know, one last Hermes mentioned. How about, let's just see what else I'm up to.

• 40:34Liv Albert?

  They continue on like this, Prometheus being entirely certain of himself, confident in his fate. Ash noted in their research that this also suggests that maybe Prometheus did what he did, stealing the fire, because he knew all of this would go down. He knew he'd be punished by Zeus, but that Zeus would end up falling? That then Prometheus would be freed by Heracles? It opens up a lot of questions about Prometheus's knowledge, like I was just saying, and his understanding of fate. But he's interrupted.

• 41:07Liv Albert?

  Hermes arrives on stage and Prometheus greets him as the errand boy of Zeus. In the Rom translation, he says, quote, "The errand boy of Zeus is coming, the lackey of the tyrant's new regime." I am utterly obsessed with this language of tyranny when it comes to Zeus. It's so pointed when it comes to Athenian history of tyranny and the introduction of their form of democracy in response to tyranny. Here, Zeus is a tyrant, just like human king tyrants, and I love it. Hermes is there for one thing: Zeus wants information on this fateful marriage that

• 41:47Liv Albert?

  will result in the son that will take him out completely. He's heard rumblings, he knows this idea that there is a son that will overthrow his father, overthrow Zeus, just like Zeus overthrew, who overthrew Uranus. It sure is a pattern. Again, from the Rom translation, Prometheus's response to Hermes is just too good. Quote, "A lofty speech and full of self-regard, how fitting for the bootlick of the gods." The bootlick of the gods, ugh. Prometheus and Hermes trade insults. Once again, I remind you of the brilliant word for this, back-and-forth type of exchange

• 42:31Liv Albert?

  in Greek plays, "stichamithia." They go back and forth, Prometheus refusing to tell Hermes the prophecy he's looking for, Hermes questions why Prometheus is bothered enough by Zeus's actions to allow himself to be punished in this way. They don't see it the same. Hermes sees the gods in power and thus, what's the problem? He's happy being Zeus's messenger boy. Prometheus meanwhile, is the martyr, but also, I mean, he's kind of right in terms of Zeus's actions. He's very confident in his decision. He's happy to be punished as he is, if it means he gets to stand up to Zeus, the tyrant. And so Hermes takes this opportunity to straight-up threaten Prometheus.

• 43:15Liv Albert?

  "Think about what you're doing here," he says. "If you don't give us what we want, Zeus will rain down even further punishment." He threatens thunder and lightning that would smash the mountaintop where Prometheus is chained, that he would be entombed within it. And then he threatens the more famed punishment of Prometheus, that Zeus would send an eagle, the symbol of the god, to fly to Prometheus and tear him up, feasting on his liver. "This wouldn't end," Prometheus adds in finishing his threats, "unless some god was willing to take you down to Tartarus itself."

• 43:51Liv Albert?

  Prometheus, unsurprisingly, is fine with all of these threats. He's not concerned with himself. He's stuck on this understanding that he has of fate and what's to come. Hermes warns off the chorus, saying they should leave Prometheus now lest they get caught up in the further punishment that's forthcoming. And though they briefly had agreed with Hermes that he might have had a point, they stay with Prometheus. And so with that, Hermes leaves them alone. And as soon as he's gone, the roar and clap of thunder and lightning begins while Prometheus speaks his final, brief speech. Quote,

• 44:35Liv Albert?

  "Indeed, now it has passed from word to deed. The earth rocks, the echoing thunder peal from the depths rolls roaring past me. The fiery wreathed lightning flashes flare forth, and whirlwinds toss the swirling dust. The blasts of all the wind leap forth and set in hostile array their embattled strife. The sky is confounded with the deep. Behold, this stormy turmoil advances against me visibly, sent by Zeus to frighten me. O holy mother mine, o you firmament that revolves the common light of all, you see the wrongs I suffer."

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Hey, wasn't that fun? The bootlick of the gods.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know what? That one hurt as well, I'm gonna be honest. I've never been called a bootlicker, mostly because I'm very much so not. But, hmm.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  It's, you know, the, I, I, do we have some good Hermes content? Is there good Hermes content? Uh, I'm trying to think, how about the Elton John Hermes and from Disney's Hercules? How about that? Let's go with that. I'm good with that one. Also Hermes in, um, oh, help me with names, Hades two and Hades one. Very good. How fun. He's just there talking as fast as he can, just off on his little adventures anyways. I don't, yeah, so this episode came together, as I said earlier, because I was on my prescription medication for panic attacks. And it just, it knocked my brain out and made it so I could not be functional.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  And instead it went me down, put me down a rabbit hole on what we have seen, um, from Hermes on the show so far. It made me go, hmm.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  The majority of this ain't great.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  That's fun. Uh, regardless, I think it's interesting to think of

• 46:52Speaker 02

  each character or each mythological figure, or just anything from antiquity, from all these different viewpoints. You know, we have the direct source, the primary source right at the beginning with the Homeric, um, hymn to Hermes, uh, po- uh, portion of it. And then we got that academic reading of it or understanding of it with Emily Hauser in her episode on how women became poets. And you know, that is utterly fascinating, just thinking of how we think about, um, language and what language suggests and prevails to the people who speak it. Or I go, I guess, you know, what it says about those who speak it. And then finally down to, you know, the, did I say what that final clip was from?

• 47:37Speaker 02

  I'm so sorry if I didn't. It was from the Prometheus bound episode that Liv has done. That was really the third one. Yep, part three. I owe the wanderer Hermes bootlick of the gods. Yay.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  But just seeing him in a play and his setting as a character who is the messenger for the gods. Um, but you know, of course he's not going to be so positive in this play because it's about Prometheus.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  Wow, you know, I think that's about all I have to share today. The ad van is, oof, it's working, guys. It's good. I feel calm. I feel cool. I feel collected. I feel sleepy. And I'm also very happy to have gone through this wonderful little dive with you all. I need to do the end credits and I don't have it up. Oh, yeah. Love you all. Bye.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Let's talk about Myths Baby is written and produced by Liv Albert, who so lovingly caught my message later today, where I just said, hey, could I do a quick little throw episode together? Because my brain ain't working. And she went, yeah. And I went, great. And so here we are. Michaela Panglish is the Hermes, the Hermes to all your Olympians, the producer, writer, you know, so close to being done school and we'll give you what I have promised next week. Select music by Luke Chaos. Thank you, Mr. Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, a collection of creators that all strive to bring you accurate and reliable information on the ancient world. These includes

• 49:24Speaker 02

  the wonderful friends and movies we dig, the partial historians, sweet, bitter, and so much more. Get ad-free episodes and much more by subscription to the Oracle Edition on Patreon at patreon.com/MythsBaby or via the link in the episode's description. We have lots of fun over there, lots of chatting. It's, you know, memes, stuff and things. I promise it's fun. One day I'm going to stream games on the server. If you want to see that, come on over. But, you know, if you want to see specifically that, give it some time. You know, we love hearing from you all. Please let us know what your thoughts are in the Spotify comments or on Instagram or anywhere. We loved hearing from you all.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Great. So that's all for now. I hope you enjoyed it and I'll see you when I see you next week. Bye.

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