Joel Edgerton

Joel Edgerton (Train Dreams, The Secret Life of Us, The Square) is an actor, writer, and director. Joel joins the Armchair Expert to discuss how he knows when his Australian Vogue Editor-in-Chief wife doesn’t like his outfit, why his approach to relationships is ‘it takes two to tango,’ and the reasons why he gets starstruck over are athletes. Joel and Dax talk about the big dreaminess of Australian filmmakers, the deficits of old school masculinity, and why his brother is ‘that guy’ as a stunt performer in movies. Joel explains pitching ideas to George Miller while getting his steps in, the pleasure of working alongside someone better than him, and the incredible and brutal world he gets to portray in Train Dreams. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 0:05Dax Shepard?

  Today, we have a very handsome and rugged, yet sensitive and sweet man.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:10Dax Shepard?

  Joel Edgerton.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:12Dax Shepard?

  God, well, he was a delight.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  He really was. This was, I didn't know much about Joel, and so I was really happy that we got to know him, and his project is incredible.

• 0:21Dax Shepard?

  It is. So of course, you know him from Loving, Warrior, The Gift, Bright, Dark Matter. But he has, you know, I don't go out on a limb. I, I, I don't, I'm telling you right now, this is one of the most beautiful movies I've ever seen.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:35Dax Shepard?

  It's just sat with me since I've saw it. I, I keep thinking about it. Train Dreams, which is out on Netflix on the 21st, just in time for Thanksgiving. It is actually, you know, it's a great movie to see right before Thanksgiving because it gives you so much gratitude for the abundance we live in and have no gratitude for.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:56Dax Shepard?

  And take for granted, because it's just a very simple story about someone in 1917. And man, it was fucking horrid.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04Dax Shepard?

  So yes, Joel Edgerton, he's great. I also want to say that my heart is broken for Cleto and his family, and my friends, the Kimmels. And, uh, boy, that's such a bummer. And, uh, I send all my love to everyone.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Uh, please enjoy Joel Edgerton. Armchair Expert is proud to have Alexa Plus as our presenting sponsor. The all-new Alexa Plus is your smart, proactive AI assistant. Just chat naturally about anything and watch your to-do list disappear. It learns your style and anticipates what's next across Echo, Fire TV, and more. Learn more at amazon.com/newalexa. We get support from Quince.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait.

• 1:57Dax Shepard?

  I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my season. Give me the layers, give me the boots, give me a reason to wear something other than a t-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince, because fall is when your wardrobe actually has. Has to show up and everything at Quince is 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We're talking 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at $60.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  $60, $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing. Gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is because they go straight to the factories. They skip the middlemen and they just hand you the savings. The stuff isn't trendy. It's the kind of pieces you grab over and over because they work every time.

• 2:37Dax Shepard?

  The 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters for me are it. When I look at Steve McQueen, this man owned a couple of sweaters he wore all the time and he looks iconic.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  It's a uniform.

• 2:48Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  And Quince isn't just about the clothes. They have hotel quality bedding, cookware, bath essentials, thoughtfully designed furniture. You can really go there and outfit your entire apartment or house. So if you're in need of any kind of fall refresh at home too, same quality, same attention to detail for every corner of your life.

• 3:06Dax Shepard?

  Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Hi. Hi. Nice to meet you. How are you, dude? Good.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Hi, nice to meet you.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  How are you?

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Welcome.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Where should I sit?

• 3:51Dax Shepard?

  Right there. Well, you look very cute in this outfit. You look very relaxed, playful.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a good outfit.

• 3:59Dax Shepard?

  Let me see your watch really quick. I like the Daytona-esque dials of it all.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  My wife bought this for me. It probably hasn't been worn.

• 4:06Dax Shepard?

  Gorgeous.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  It was made in the year I was born.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  That's cute.

• 4:11Dax Shepard?

  Seventy four.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Seventy four. So it's a very old watch. I love old. Like I was in Budapest and I bought a bunch of old watches from markets. I thought I'd wanted to go and get a really fancy, expensive watch and I did and I barely wear it. And the watches I love are these watches I got for like 50 bucks.

• 4:30Dax Shepard?

  These Budapest watches.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, like World War II kind of old German and Russian watches.

• 4:35Dax Shepard?

  I have one very nice watch too, and I don't wear it ever. Why don't you wear yours?

• 4:40Speaker 02

  I feel like it makes me seem like a show off.

• 4:43Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  I was in Tokyo for two days. Someone had told me you could get really good deals on really fancy watches there. So I went shopping for watches. I got it a handful of times, but I do feel like I'm a bit of a show off.

• 4:55Dax Shepard?

  You get self conscious.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Call Poppy.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, but one of the things I do is I do a lot of my shopping on other men.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  I literally I'll see something someone's wearing and I'm like, I think I know where that's from. Double R L.

• 5:08Dax Shepard?

  Good job.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 5:10Dax Shepard?

  Really good work. Wait, does this predate your wife in Monica? I was gonna save this because you'll be so excited, but his wife is the editor in chief at Australia Vogue.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Incredible.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, and my clothing game is definitely upped.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  You got to.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  As I've punched above my weight. My clothing then punched above my weight.

• 5:29Dax Shepard?

  Wow, so you really nailed this and I'm gonna tell you, I saw it on Instagram, promoted to me. They know what I like and I found my way to this like two months ago. So I certainly would not have known this was double R a couple of months ago.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:41Dax Shepard?

  Why are you?

• 5:42Speaker 02

  I just happen to have seen that shirt and I know this.

• 5:44Dax Shepard?

  Do you own it?

• 5:45Speaker 02

  No, I don't own it.

• 5:46Dax Shepard?

  Did it pique your interest? Did you think about?

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did like it.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Are you gonna get it now?

• 5:51Dax Shepard?

  I feel like I should give it to you at the end of this interview. Yeah, I kinda do.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  You know, years ago I met a producer on a film and he said to me that when he was a kid, his mom dressed him for his first day of school in a three piece suit. And he went to school and I'll start the story by saying he kept asking me what I was wearing and he asked if he could have a look at the tag. And three days after one of these moments, he turned up on set wearing the jacket that I had bought and that I'd been wearing three days earlier. And then he told me this story, his mom dressed him in a three piece suit for school. All the kids teased him.

• 6:28Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  And he went home crying and his mom, the kids would tease me about my suit. She said, well, you go to school tomorrow. And look at what all the other kids are wearing and then come home and tell me and we'll go shopping for you.

• 6:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that was sweet of her.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  And that was when he was like five, six years old. And ever since then, what he does is he walks around to other men and he's like, what is this? And looks at the tag. Yeah, yeah. And then he goes shopping and I was like, that's kind of what I do. I look at what people and watches is one of them.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  I hope your wife watches this because I think she will appreciate my outfit.

• 7:00Dax Shepard?

  Of course. Like Joel knew about me, she'll know right away for you.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  And you'll know if my wife likes or doesn't like your outfit. And I'll tell you why.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  I'm not sure when I left to come here because she was the last person I saw. And I ran into the room to grab something and she looked at me and I was like, I wonder if I'm gonna get an appraisal or not. I can tell by a micro expression and sometimes I'll walk in and if my arms are out, it's basically like, what do you think? And then I get a look and depending on the look, sometimes I'm already taking the outfit off.

• 7:32Dax Shepard?

  Can you do the look? You're a good actor.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  It's kind of like.

• 7:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's great.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Super slight disapproval.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  But she's got great taste. Hopefully that extends to her choice in husbands.

• 7:46Dax Shepard?

  Good. I was gonna ask this very far at the end after I had warmed you up and gained your trust. But I am curious how you guys knew each other since the nineties, but you didn't get together until 2018?

• 7:57Speaker 02

  There's like 48 people in Australia.

• 7:59Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  We all know each other. She used to work at a magazine, Harper's Bazaar. And I'm talking about the late nineties. And I was a young actor and I just remember meeting her, but I knew a lot of people at the time. And then we just saw each other in social circles for years. And then in the sort of five or six years before we got together, she'd become very close friends with my brother and his wife. So we knew each other super well as friends.

• 8:25Dax Shepard?

  But were there not vibes throughout any of those different encounters? Like, were you doing the secret life of us when you met when she was at Harper's? Were you like already on TV?

• 8:34Speaker 02

  I don't know that anyone would have looked at my hairstyle during the secret life of us and gone, there's a catch.

• 8:38Dax Shepard?

  That's the guy.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  That plume of fake blonde hair. The interesting thing was I. Had gone through, and I won't go too much into this, but I've gone through a string of relationships, complicated ones, some of them. And she was in a very solid relationship for a long time.

• 8:54Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay, that explains.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  And so quite often at these dinners, I was being ripped apart by my brother and his wife. They were very judgy about me and my approach to relationships.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 9:06Dax Shepard?

  And I'm sure they had some good points.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  That's a good point.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  But I will say in hindsight, I often look back on those relationships and go, you have to make sure that you acknowledge that it takes two to tango. You know, you can't just blame someone else for being terrible to you, although there is one.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  There was a character assassination. There was a pot shot or two taken at me at most of those dinners.

• 9:30Dax Shepard?

  By Nash, your brother.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, just in general. And I think quietly in the background, people like to talk about other people when they're not around.

• 9:36Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure. Yeah, it's very funny.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  It all came from a place of caring. I think they wanted the best for me.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:41Dax Shepard?

  Also, there's this great thing about siblings. Siblings tell you exactly what's going on. Oh, you have shit in your teeth. Oh, you look fucking ugly in that jacket. There's no threat of leaving, so the honesty's off the charts.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  And my brother's an incredible touchstone of honesty for me. When it comes to work, anything, he'll tell me straight. I know for a fact that there were two people when Christine became single, were like, hey, do you ever think, Joel? And her answer, I probably can't ever repeat on this podcast, but when my mom mentioned it at some point, she's like, no way.

• 10:13Dax Shepard?

  Great. I'd love to hear that.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Because of your reputation from these dinners.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, but like, I don't think my reputation was too bad. I think it was more the fact that I was a guy in my mid 40s who just hadn't quite settled down. And to be honest, in fairness to me, my passion for work and the journeys that it takes you on geographically.

• 10:34Dax Shepard?

  Travel, yeah, yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  I think a lot of people were interested in actors and go, wow, it's so exciting. And we know it's really not that glamorous. And then once they get close to you or involving you, they're like, all right, you're going where for how long?

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  So you're not really a reliable source of continuity. And it puts people in a vulnerable position to be a passenger. In someone else's life.

• 10:56Dax Shepard?

  Yes, I don't want to be a passenger.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  No, I love being a plus one, though. I really enjoy going places to support Christine. And when she's there to support me, I appreciate it. I'm constantly sensitive to how weird it all is.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  She's so cool about those worlds in general, even though she lives in the world of fashion. But it's got similar, you know, it in a sense in its own way enough for her to understand. And what I love most of all, whenever I've invited her to set, mainly because I want the kids to come. Like on Train Dreams, I got to ride on a horse and cart. So can you bring the kids set? The last thing in the world she wants to do, not because she's not supportive, but she doesn't want to be that person hanging around on a set where she's just someone standing there not doing anything.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:40Dax Shepard?

  Well, I was gonna say, she has demonstrated that she is an industrious focused human being. And to stand there and be useless for eight hours is a rough feeling when you are generally of use to people.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  And I think what sort of made our relationship work in the early days too, was the realization that she'd barely watched anything I'd ever been involved in.

• 11:58Dax Shepard?

  So she has great taste.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Circles back.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  I had become aware over the years. I remember the first time anyone ever walked over to me in a bar and was like really interested to talk to me. And the realization that the only reason she'd done it is because she'd seen me on television, that she had an idea of who I was and a fascination with who I was without even knowing me at all. Whereas I love when people are disinterested. It becomes even keeled and good and our relationship works for a hundred reasons and that's one of them.

• 12:34Dax Shepard?

  Monica has the same thing as you.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:36Dax Shepard?

  And I don't get it. Okay, yeah, some gal at the bar saw you in something and loved you. So she appreciates the thing you do and she comes over for one reason. But you have your own swag and charisma and value. And so who cares if that's how the door got opened? Unless you have some crazy fear of I'm gonna really be a disappointment, let the person down. Who gives a flying fuck why someone enters the picture? This is Monica's issue too. You guys can gang up on me.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:01Dax Shepard?

  Can you guys put together a cohesive reason why that's an issue that someone is aware of you before they meet you?

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, it's hard to articulate.

• 13:10Dax Shepard?

  It's a trust issue, right? It's like there's a built in mistrust.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  It's more that I've sort of mistrust somebody who is taken with the allure of you because they have an idea that fame is something special or that notoriety or a profile or whatever you would call it.

• 13:25Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. So now we're parsing it out. Yeah, that's an issue if someone wants to be in the spotlight. But let's say you and I, did you see her?

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, Joaquin.

• 13:33Dax Shepard?

  Joaquin, but even Scarlett Johansson unseen. Afterwards, I'm like, I'm in love with that robot too. I understand exactly why he feels that way. Or after seeing her in Name the Movie when I was younger. And if I started a bar, I definitely want to go chat with her and then she'll either really live up to my thing or she won't.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  But she can't. That's the problem. She is Scarlett.

• 13:54Dax Shepard?

  She might exceed it.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  You have your own relationship with her in your head. That's a fantasy. That's like the best case scenario. No real human can live up to that. And so it is a disappointment.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Oh, this whole idea too of never meet your heroes is an interesting one. But you know who really kind of gets me excited? And this is separate from gender or attraction. Actors have never really been the thing that got me jittery. Sports people.

• 14:21Dax Shepard?

  Ah, athletes.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  I met a bunch of old school famous tennis players and I remember getting nervous. This is a weird one. I don't know if anyone out there will know this one, but I was obsessed when I grew up in Dural with of all things pole vaulting. I used to cut down a sapling.

• 14:38Dax Shepard?

  You wanted to be a pole.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  I wanted to be a pole vault. Cause it was right around the time of the 84 Olympics, California Olympics. Put elastic between two trees, get a sapling, drag my mattress out into the lawn.

• 14:50Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Tiny bullseye for you.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, this sounds very dangerous.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  And Sergey Bobkov was the greatest pole vaulter of all time. He never won a gold medal, but he won the world championships and he held the world record. I met him when I was 32 years old and got to shake his hand. He's only about my height.

• 15:07Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 15:08Speaker 02

  But he has the hands of like Andre the Giant.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Cause like he'd sift someone else's hands on it. I was like, I don't want to hold that thing. That was probably the most starstruck I'd ever been.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  I was obsessed with the Romanian gymnast.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  I met Nadia Khamenei.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  You did?

• 15:23Speaker 02

  I met Martine and Navratilova. These people got me far more excited than anybody I'd ever met before.

• 15:30Dax Shepard?

  Okay, this is juicy. No movie star.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  What do you mean? No movie star?

• 15:34Dax Shepard?

  Not a single movie star. Did you get like butterfly feeling?

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've got a man crush on Javier Bardem.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:40Dax Shepard?

  Good man crush.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Amazing Javier Bardem story.

• 15:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, please, please, please.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  So when I met him, I went to Madrid. I was on a road trip with my brother and my good friend Spencer. We stopped in and Natalie Portman was shooting with Javier and we knew Natalie from Star Wars. So we go and meet them in a bar. I'm introduced to Javier. At the end of the night, we're leaving this bar and this girl is leaving the bar and she's clearly very inebriated. And this man put his arm around his shoulder and Javier asked the guy, do you know this girl? And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm just walking home. And Javier said, well, with all respect, we're gonna walk with you and make sure that she gets home safe. And so all of us walked with Javier because we're like, this dude is amazing. We're even having the thought and the inclination to protect this girl.

• 16:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  And the guy was being honest, but Javier just was making sure.

• 16:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, double, double check.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  And we would have walked about a kilometer winding through these streets of Madrid to make sure this girl got home safe. And I remember just thinking, this guy.

• 16:45Dax Shepard?

  Has character.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Unbelievable.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Oh, I love him.

• 16:47Dax Shepard?

  That's a great story. And he's already so sexy.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  I know.

• 16:51Dax Shepard?

  You sprinkle that on top.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  And he's a protector of strangers.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  There are people like him that I really, really admire.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  But that almost sounds like you admire his character more than you admire him as this flashy actor.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember when I met Sylvester Stallone. You know, you talk about childhood dreams. My favorite actors when I was growing up as a kid were Harrison Ford. Most of the movies were about guys with muscle.

• 17:13Dax Shepard?

  Absolutely.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  So Arnold and Sylvester. And I remember doing one of those weird round table things with a bunch of actors. And I've never seen so many already successful actors get so giggly. When Sylvester Stallone walked in the room, they're all like, oh, everyone was shaking.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  That's so funny.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  The power of that guy.

• 17:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, I'm obsessed with muscles and I don't know how I could have grown up in the eighties.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  You've got muscles. I just cuddled you on the way in.

• 17:41Dax Shepard?

  I have more free time now, so I can develop my muscles. But yeah, it all starts with, dude, I saw Conan the Barbarian at a drive in when I was probably eight. And I was like, what the fuck is this? I didn't have those magazines. He'd never been on TV. I'm like, this is crazy. That's a real person.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:58Dax Shepard?

  I loved it. Did you love Road Warrior? I mean, you're in Australia. My brother and I were obsessed with Road Warrior.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, we called it Mad Max. First one was just called Mad Max.

• 18:06Dax Shepard?

  Well, sure.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  But that was Mad Max Road Warrior.

• 18:08Dax Shepard?

  Warriors got colorful and over the top. Mad Max is like a straight good movie. Road Warrior is more of a fun comic.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Oh, the second one, you mean?

• 18:15Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, Mad Max two.

• 18:16Dax Shepard?

  There's Mad Max and then there's Road Warrior and then there's the now ones.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Now, have you seen the Tina Turner one, Mad Max three?

• 18:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Beyond Thunderdome.

• 18:23Dax Shepard?

  We don't need another hero. The fact that she worked Thunderdome into a song and it was a hit is almost impossible.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  Her outfit in that with the chain mail.

• 18:33Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, Master Blaster.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Master Blaster.

• 18:36Dax Shepard?

  The little guy sat on the big guy's shoulders.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  There's something so incredible about rewatching that film now, which I saw it again maybe about three months ago.

• 18:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Cause I remember thinking, okay, the first one's very austere. Second one just gets crazy with the whole kind of like, what's that great line of Mel's where he's talking about, there's only one man who can drive that truck out of here and you know?

• 18:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Where there's the whole full on road chase, which is more reminiscent of the new ones.

• 19:02Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  But Beyond Thunderdome just went kind of crazier and it was a little kitsch. And then rewatching it is kind of extraordinary. There's the whole Boeing seven four seven that's crashed and the wild children that are kind of living out there. But that film is amazing. George and Baz Luhrmann, for Australian filmmakers, are the two guys, they dream big.

• 19:24Dax Shepard?

  Enormous, yeah, yeah.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Cause most Australian films live in this sort of two to five million dollar margin.

• 19:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, there's not the market to fund big spectacles.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  No, these guys are seeing the world as their canvas. Baz is making Gatsby in Sydney. He made Elvis in the Gold Coast. And that's his new playground. So he uses Australian technicians, Australian actors peppered throughout.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  But creates his big worlds and does it in Australia. And George, for the most part, does the same thing.

• 19:56Dax Shepard?

  The Blu-ray of Road Warrior, the second film, has a little doc on it. And I don't know if you've watched it, but it's spectacular. You'll remember the huge semi-crash at the end. They told the stunt performer who did that crash, you need to prep for surgery before.

• 20:14Dax Shepard?

  So this dude had done a full prep for surgery in anticipation of getting airlifted to a fucking hospital.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Just needs to de-tize yourself, then do the stunt. You've seen the one where the guy clips his ankles.

• 20:27Dax Shepard?

  Yes, breaks his legs on that.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  He clipped his ankles here, both ankles, but the break happened up here. They broke both femurs after tapping both ankles. The guy that did that did stunts on a short film. When I first started out, I used to do short films for the Australian Film Television Radio School, where actors from drama school would go and get to be in these short films. And the stunt team turned up and it was the guy that had done that stunt.

• 20:51Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  His name was Grant and his two sons had become stuntmen. The week or two before, he'd had a light plane crash with one of his sons in it. It was one of those things where you sit and it's just a propeller above you. And he and his son had had a crash. And so that had happened. His other son had broken his leg doing an absar from the Harbour Bridge. And so the stunt team turned up, they're all part of the same family. They all had broken bones and they were all trying to drag a crash man.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  And my brother was doubling me in that, which has doubled me in so many things. But it was just funny watching the stunt team all trying to drag a crash man and go, you're already broken. One of the most terrifying things I've ever seen is my brother getting painted up with fire gel to do a full body burn. And the weirdest thing, I've seen it three times. And one of them was on a really weird western that we made in Santa Fe, that myself and another guy helped rewrite. It was a very complicated film that fell apart and then found its way back up. And one of the rewrites we'd done was that all these guys get burnt in this situation. And my brother then got a job on it. So I realized like I had written this scene.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  My brother was like, I'll do that.

• 22:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  I'm sitting there watching him getting painted by these people and stunt guys, for all the craziness you think that they engage in, they're incredibly good physics brain thinkers, a lot of them in terms of the dynamics. And they really care about each other. And the quietness that descended as they were painting him and making sure that it didn't go beyond a certain point, talking about how long and what the process and who was going to bring the fire blanket. And I remember just being terrified. I would have felt culpable.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:32Dax Shepard?

  That's a good thought process for all of us directors to think about when we're asking people to do stuff like, what if my brother was doing this? Do I have the same opinion about this?

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's a whole interesting conversation about the pursuit of creating, life is more important than fiction, taking care of each other on a set. It's amazing how much people suddenly kick bollock scramble on a set. And we all know the big stories that have made the headlines about people losing their lives or becoming brain damaged. And I had a cinematographer recently in Chicago and there's this big scrim and the wind was kicking up. And he just kind of kicked off in this really assertive way and said, we don't need to be doing this. And everyone first was like, what is this guy getting all curmudgeonly? And then all of a sudden you realize, I think he'd been involved in a situation before where someone had got hurt. And everyone then was like, good for you.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  No one needs to have something.

• 23:25Dax Shepard?

  It's very Javier Bardem.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  What do we think it is about men and women, but we gotta be realistic, mainly men, being very attracted to stunts?

• 23:38Dax Shepard?

  It's rates of passage.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  I'm fascinated by this and when my blood boils, when I see red, you know, those sort of cliched expressions. But my inclination is to be very peaceful and I like to think I could handle myself in a fight. But I feel the inclination sometimes, always shy away from it. But I'm really interested in the world we live in now where. There's sort of almost this line we don't cross. We're all part of society. We like to be civilized and we know that to step over that line means we do something that's uncivilized. But it's crazy watching what I call like middle class rage.

• 24:15Dax Shepard?

  In their car.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, we love these very safe lives. So fight or flight gets triggered by the most benign things, being late to a meeting or somebody cutting you off in the traffic. Road rage is a big thing and indignation of what happens with humans lining up to do things at a fun park or a shop. Suddenly they're all kicking off and the trigger is loaded up by compression of financial situation, marital, whatever's loading the bow. And then someone hits the hair trigger and it kicks off. And it's like this primal rage that exists, particularly in a lot of men who don't know how to manage it. And it's almost like a blindness comes over them with this sort of feeling. I'm fascinated by it. I love thinking about, but it's a weird thing.

• 25:01Dax Shepard?

  I think we have tons of vestigial stuff that we have no application for anymore. We were wired to overeat because food was scarce. We were wired to do a lot of stuff that we no longer do. And that's why sports is a thing. That's why like all these different activities we have are our ways of engaging in that wiring in a safe, socially acceptable way. But that's what's clearly driving that. You can imagine a species that doesn't even like sports. Like if they didn't have any of that background.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  I mean, there's a lot of ways to look at sports. Sports is also community, which we know we need as social animals too. There's so many things, but like a car jumping another car is so specific and all of you guys love it.

• 25:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, cause it's scary.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  I just don't get it.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  I'm gonna say something relatively controversial.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Ooh, let's hear it.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Well, not really. I mean, I see myself as a fairly undude kind of dude. Never wanted to drive cars fast.

• 25:53Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  I don't have a particular sport I'm fast. I love all sport. I love watching it, but I'm not obsessing over a particular team. There's a few dude boxes I don't feel like I tick and don't really need to tick.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  There's some that I do. I actually haven't taken, I don't know if there's a dude test.

• 26:12Dax Shepard?

  I have it. I'll give it to you on your way out when I give you this shirt.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Before you came in, Dax said, oh, Joel is so masculine.

• 26:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  I was like, really? And it's just interesting to see like Amelia, that we are starting to talk about some things that are. Masculine.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  But what is masculinity is a really good question. My idea of masculinity used to be Chuck Norris, Arnold Schwarzenegger. My movie diet was all about dudes that could break your limbs and kick you in the face.

• 26:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Roundhouse kick you and all that. But the idea of sensitivity mixed within masculinity and talking about the kinds of performances I like from men, and Russell Crowe is a good example. He's such a kind of alpha male. He's such a brute force and yet there's a tenderness to be able to watch the child inside the man. Cause I think as bearded as we can all get, as masculine, we're still a child, you know?

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:07Dax Shepard?

  Did you watch Chimp Empire?

• 27:08Speaker 02

  No, I haven't. No.

• 27:09Dax Shepard?

  It's great, but yes, you're nailing the thing that made that not just a fun rubbernecky look at chimps warring was they follow the alpha male a ton. And you come to realize like the alpha male is not allowed to groom anyone. He only gets groomed.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  He's not allowed to get the hors d'oeuvres off each other's heads.

• 27:24Dax Shepard?

  No, it's just other signaling status. So he only gets groomed and he has to be fierce at all times. There's two males that are trying to actively kill him. And then they have these troop on troop wars three times in this movie. And he's got to be first one in and they're outnumbered and that's his role. And then the weird thing that alpha male chimps will do is they'll take on orphans. They'll be an orphan baby and no one will claim it. And this alpha male will claim it. And he spends his whole time just grooming and being so kind to this thing. And I was like, that's the heartbreak of this role is like, he wants to groom and be emotional and be tender and nurture. And his role just doesn't allow for it.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  I think that's the deficit of old school masculinity is tenderness. And this is why I think masculinity continues on through generations of being stoic and nonverbal and inexpressive is because you take your cues from the person above you. The moment that breaks, the moment you feel the tenderness from a male figure in your life, I think it sets better cues. And I'm fascinated now that I've got two kids and they're twins and one's a girl and one's a boy. And not to make it about men in particular, but how do you groom your children for the world? I mean, how do you build them up to be better people?

• 28:42Dax Shepard?

  Well, would you agree, I was trying to equip them for the real world and build in the aspirational version of what we should become. It's like, you can't turn them out into the world completely naive. There's some reality you're working within and you're also trying to push it forward. But I don't think it's like black or white. It's like you're trying to thread this needle. I want them to be better than me. And also, I don't want them to get hurt their whole life.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. My son said to me the other day, this kid had said, you're not a very good Spider-Man. He goes, I'm gonna web him. So he's got beef with another four year old. He's like, I'm gonna web him. I said, hold on, Jack. First of all, why don't you tell him how you feel about the fact that he discredited your validity as Spider-Man?

• 29:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, try that.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  And then if he regrets it, I'll tell him the definition of the word regret, and then give him a chance. If he still says he's not a very good Spider-Man, then consider webbing him. And he goes, yeah, I'm gonna web his legs, his body and his eyeballs.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  His eyeballs.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  And then my daughter just started cackling. He's got his back. So if you see a webbed kid around LA, you know he did it.

• 29:49Dax Shepard?

  You'll know that he did not heed your advice. But to the masculinity thing, your older brother Nash, a year and a half older than you?

• 29:55Speaker 02

  Year and a half, yeah.

• 29:56Dax Shepard?

  He's a stuntie. Was he a fucking stud? Did you idolize him? What was your guys' dynamic as kids?

• 30:03Speaker 02

  We were kind of mild studs growing up together. We weren't full studs. Again, we weren't ticking all those boxes. But he was a daredevil in the true sense. Before he plugged into the idea that he could become a stuntman, he was literally doing things for free to entertain people. Like, do you dare me to try and jump that fence? That's definitely gonna trip me over and make me lose a lot of skin off my face. You know, we're like, yeah, Nash, we dare you. He would put himself up to do these things.

• 30:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  He jumped out of a moving train. To not be late for a basketball game and then wasn't allowed to play because he was losing so much blood when he was right at the court. He had about 12 abrasions and it was right around the time they had decided that you can't play sport while you're bleeding.

• 30:45Dax Shepard?

  While you're actively bleeding.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  He literally jumped out of a train that was moving about 60 kilometers an hour.

• 30:50Dax Shepard?

  And did you feel inclined to match him?

• 30:54Speaker 02

  No.

• 30:55Dax Shepard?

  Or was he just so wild that it was like, that's his lane?

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, he one time also got out of a driving car to show that he could run alongside it while the car was also driving.

• 31:04Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Which didn't end well. He sort of taught me to abseil and rock climb and things as he started getting into the world of stunts. He was fearless, you know, and he's able to flick that switch and go, all right, I know my human brain is telling me this is very dangerous, but the camera's rolling and there's a lot of pressure on me and everyone's watching, so I better just do it, but do it safely.

• 31:26Dax Shepard?

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• 32:11Dax Shepard?

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• 32:27Dax Shepard?

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• 32:56Dax Shepard?

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• 33:10Speaker 01

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• 33:14Dax Shepard?

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• 33:25Speaker 01

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• 33:32Dax Shepard?

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• 34:17Dax Shepard?

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• 35:41Speaker 02

  And he was a brilliant physicist, actually. He was on his way to doing electrical engineering at university and really smokescreened my way into drama school by saying, hey, mom and dad, I'm going to be a stunt man. And they were like, what? And then meanwhile, I just slipped into drama school without any sort of concern at all.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 35:59Dax Shepard?

  Dad, he developed land, is that what he did?

• 36:00Speaker 02

  My dad still is a property developer. At the time we grew up, my dad was starting a law firm. He looked like a hippie in a suit. He had really long hair and a really shaggy mustache. And he started a law firm in a town 20 minutes from where we live.

• 36:14Dax Shepard?

  Was he a lawyer?

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he's a property developer, but he had a law degree.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  He was a lawyer and then he actually retired at the age of 40 from his law firm. Kept topping up his law degree each year. I think he still does it and he still can practice law. But he realized he was just doing contracts for everybody else. It's like, why not just do the contract law for myself and make more money being a property developer?

• 36:39Dax Shepard?

  You said once in an interview that you wanted his attention.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Still do, and I think I still will, lo and behold, after he's gone.

• 36:46Dax Shepard?

  Was he unavailable? Was he busy?

• 36:48Speaker 02

  He was busy.

• 36:49Dax Shepard?

  Okay, or was it hard for him to express that kind of?

• 36:53Speaker 02

  My father is incredibly astute and sentimental and has a very beautiful softness to him and a massive heart. He can appear quite stoic. He can also be very funny and he was a real performer when it came to it. He always had a microphone in his hand. If people wanted my father to make a speech about things, gift to the gab, if you could call it that, it was incredible. He's just a real raconteur and I think he's the one, even though he wasn't in the profession of storytelling, was the reason my brother and I, maybe a chip off that block as a way of kind of my dad was a performer.

• 37:28Dax Shepard?

  Does he get an enormous bang out of watching you guys perform for a living?

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and look, as sometimes the difference between mums and dads, an essay of words from my mum, the same thing can be communicated with just a touch of my shoulder from my dad. I have to say occasionally I feel guilty about the fact that the way I view these relationships is like, I've got my mum, she's my biggest fan. And it's just the child in me because when I was a kid, I was always around my mum and my brother, but my dad was trying to make a life for the family. And as a kid, you don't understand economics. So I was like, gotta be good at sport because he'll turn up at sporting events. Turns out I wasn't that good at sport. I was always very middling at everything. If I did a play, he would come because you can't not come to your kid's play.

• 38:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you really gotta show up for those.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  That sort of became the start of it for me. I do feel this weird and unnecessary need to feel the pride of my dad, even though I have it in spades. It's like an engine that will constantly refuel itself no matter what I say to it.

• 38:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Your brother maybe too, maybe that's part of the daredevil element. Like if I'm doing these crazy things, he's gonna have to look.

• 38:38Speaker 02

  It's interesting how two siblings. Can grow up with the same series of events with just one year's difference and interpret things very differently. I'm always fascinated by that. And I think my brother's engine is sometimes defiance. Whereas mine might be the craving of like, look at me, look what I can do.

• 38:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, approval.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  My brother's was always, how could I ruffle his feathers a little bit? And I don't think he's actively thinking that way. It's all this subconscious stuff. But my brother and my father were so similar in many ways that they clash. I remember some really drag out arguments on family holidays. My brother and I making some late night stupid music video when we were late teenagers. We got a hold of the video camera we were doing by him in Rhapsody or something like this and dressing up and pretending to play guitars on baseball bats and stuff. And my dad came down in his bathrobe. He's like, you know, your grandmother's sleeping. And so he just started yelling. And my brother just turned the volume down and the video camera is still playing. My dad's in the background yelling at him. And then as dad's yelling at him, Nash turns to the camera and

• 39:39Speaker 02

  keeps mouthing the words of the song. And then dad leaves. My brother couldn't help but say something, which brings him back. He liked antagonizing a little bit. And not to say anything bad about my bro. I just think that he's one of those people who likes to, like you said, do you dare me to do this? I think there's something beautiful about my brother that goes, if you think I can't do something, I'm gonna show you that I can do it. And he taught himself everything. How to be a filmmaker, how to edit, how to direct, no school.

• 40:10Dax Shepard?

  I'm curious when this would have happened because you and Bateman worked together on Smoking Aces. Did you guys become friends then?

• 40:16Speaker 02

  We didn't really, and not because I love Jason Bateman, but we didn't really work on the same stuff, the gift, yeah.

• 40:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so it must have been around the time you guys were doing the gift. You wrote it and you were directing it and Bateman was in it. It had to have been him that showed me this short that your brother made. If I'm remembering this correctly. It's like all set in a car.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:36Dax Shepard?

  And there's like this crazy lock off overlap shot, which is like so fucking startling.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:43Dax Shepard?

  And it was kind of innovative at the time I saw it. And Bateman's like, Joel's brother made this. And I was like, oh, the brother is fucking clever as hell.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  My brother's the reason I became a filmmaker. I would write an act. He was a stunt guy and then he became an editor and a director. We call him the film bully. As in like, if you came to him and said, I've got this idea for a movie. He would just keep bullying you until you made it. He'd encourage you, go, stop talking about it. Just set a date, start doing it. Rather than discourage me from stepping on his turf. He was like, you gotta go do it. He can do the most extraordinary things with no money because we never had money. There's a great short film he made called Lucky, where he wakes up in the trunk of a car, breaks his way out of the trunk of the car and realizes no one is driving the car. And the car's going about a hundred kilometers an hour down a desert road. And he has to break into the car to stop the car.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  It's a two and a half minute short film. So here's what happened on the day they realized he wanted to shot 360 degrees around the car to show that no one was driving it. Now nowadays you could just go and get a Waymo, right?

• 41:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  They couldn't work out how to get the stunt guy hidden in the car. They tried him lying on the ground. They tried him just sort of lying there with a radio. And eventually Nash goes, cut the car seat out, rip the foam off it and build the car seat around Tony, the stunt guy. And you watch that film now and there's an entire moving shot around the entire car. And you're like, no one's driving it while Nash is on the roof trying to climb his way in. And it was just Tony with two eye holes in the, and he's driving the car like this. If you did that properly by scrubbing it out in post, that would have cost thousands and thousands of dollars. Nash is that guy. He's a problem solver.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  He's an analyst and he has what I think Spielberg has, which is a balanced left and right brain. Creative brain, business brain, creative brain, science brain.

• 42:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, wow.

• 42:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay. I want to touch on your career a couple of places. One is, how do we go from TV in Australia? And you won for that show.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  Secret Life of Us.

• 42:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you won an A CTA award. You were recognized, obviously. How do you go from there to Star Wars?

• 42:58Speaker 02

  That's pure luck. I see career as sort of a combination of hard work, whatever you can provide on a talent level, plus some occasional bumping into good luck. George Lucas came down to Sydney and he wanted to make two of his films there. And the unions are basically like, well, you gotta use some Australian actors. I just happen to have also the luck of, you could imagine the physiognomy or the right sort of resemblance to a young Phil Brown who played Uncle Owen. And I got the job. That was the thing that allowed me to come to LA for the first time.

• 43:31Dax Shepard?

  Now, what was your demeanor like? Because you do that Star Wars and then three years later, I guess you come and do another one with George. And I guess I forgot he directed those two immediate ones after the first three. What was your relationship with him on the first one versus the second one? Had you come in with more confidence?

• 43:50Speaker 02

  Episode three, I'm in for like a minute and I was part of a reshoot section because I had been off shooting King Arthur in Ireland. The weirdest thing is I got to go to Skywalker Ranch, stayed in the Kurosawa room and I shot one day and there was sort of a conveyor belt of pickup shots being done. So I'm in a green room, not much bigger than this. Chewbacca and his son are in there.

• 44:11Dax Shepard?

  Who?

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Chewbacca.

• 44:12Dax Shepard?

  Chewbacca.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  They're about to go in and do their pickup. So I walk in this room and there's Chewbacca and his son just sitting there waiting for their shot. And then I was in there.

• 44:22Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  But on the first one, I was so nervous. I had the most incredible time. This weird moment where we're in Tunisia and George was in his tent about 400 yards away because they're doing a big wide shot and they were down low in the Uncle Owen kind of underground house. And I was coming out to meet Anakin and I had been working on the droids and I had a moisture farmer's screwdriver. I was like, oh, just to bring it into the real world, I should just maybe have a rag that I'm wiping my hands before I shake his hand. I hadn't done many movies. I was like, oh, you should ask George if that's okay.

• 44:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  So I asked Nate D, I said, oh, could I speak to George? Anyway, yeah, Joe wants to speak to George. And then I realized he was gonna have to walk 400 yards or like 200 yards. So I was like, I better go meet him up there. Tried to get halfway, fumbled my words, got to go again. I was thinking, and the rag and you know, what do you think? And he just goes, sure. And then walked away. I'm such an idiot. Helped him get his steps in though, you know?

• 45:24Dax Shepard?

  But in rapid order, you start your career in kind of a unique way. And I don't want to say start, you've been working for a while, but in movies, you're in shit with pretty heavy hitters right away. Clive's a fucking animal, right?

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Clive Owen.

• 45:36Dax Shepard?

  Clive Owen.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:37Dax Shepard?

  How are you doing around that?

• 45:40Speaker 02

  For the most part, I've been like Scottie Pippen, played support to some incredible actors. And it felt like a very safe place to be.

• 45:49Dax Shepard?

  Do you think being a little brother helps in that situation?

• 45:52Speaker 02

  I'd never thought about it, but it's pretty extraordinary for you to say that because I think it does.

• 45:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. You know how to find your moment to shine, but to service this older creature in your orbit.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  And also the pleasure of learning from getting a front row seat with someone that you really look up to. And knowing to use the analogy of tennis, that your game gets better if you play with someone better than you, more experienced than you. So I've always had this pleasure of working alongside really interesting people and knowing that the whole thing wasn't sitting on my shoulders. And had a pretty fun time doing it because oftentimes also there's supporting characters. I love some of my characters when I look back, I love working on Black Mass. I love working in Loving. I loved working on Gatsby.

• 46:35Dax Shepard?

  Well, those were the ones I was gonna list is like you got Johnny Depp and Leonardo DiCaprio, all within the first like six movies you do.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:41Dax Shepard?

  And Clive, these are like some fucking heavyweight champs.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  Weirdly, I felt like I was gonna go into those experiences and be so riddled with anxiety. Because like, you know, I get anxiety about other stuff, but weirdly when I work, it's like that part of my brain turns off. I just really embrace the experience rather than going, oh no, they're gonna think I'm really terrible. That hum is always going on, but between action and cut, I don't feel any anxiety at all. It reminds me when I work on movies sometimes nowadays, sometimes bring someone who's there for the day or a background artist to go, just deliver this drink to the table and you see the handshake.

• 47:17Dax Shepard?

  It's so stressful.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  That's right. This is a stressful thing.

• 47:20Dax Shepard?

  Fuck yeah. The less you have to do, the harder it is, I think.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:24Dax Shepard?

  I mean, which is counterintuitive.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  Those actors that Like Navy SEALs who just drop in for the mission of a couple of days, nail the tone and then drop the mic and say goodbye. I have so much admiration for.

• 47:35Dax Shepard?

  You do Warrior with Tom Hardy.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:37Dax Shepard?

  This is a little bit pre Tom Hardy, before we all know kind of how.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Extraordinary?

• 47:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, really kind of revelatory.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Before I worked with Tom, one of the only things I'd seen him in was Bronson.

• 47:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what a fucking movie.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  I was like, who is this dude? He's fucking fantastic.

• 47:55Dax Shepard?

  Very Chopper-esque.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, but in its own way.

• 47:58Dax Shepard?

  For sure. But it's weird, that genre somehow has given rise to a few of our really powerful fucking Eric Bana and that. You're like, okay, who's this guy?

• 48:06Speaker 02

  I know, man. That performance is extraordinary. I just did a movie in Australia where I really tuned things up to 11, I call it. I played a prisoner with a full set of steel teeth.

• 48:15Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  You know, it's like the opposite of what goes on in this movie, Train Dreams. One of the joys of acting is being able to go, all right, what is the canvas we're painting here? And how bright a color do I need to make myself?

• 48:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  How do I live in this world?

• 48:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  In the right way. But Bronson and Chopper are these sort of larger than life characters. It's wonderful to watch actors do that and not see the artifice. Chopper really disappeared. I mean, Eric really disappeared into that role. Tom in.

• 48:44Dax Shepard?

  It's like over the top and subtle at the same time, which is kind of impossible.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  I call it the Nicolas Cage in certain performances of his where he goes so big. But it comes from a piece of honesty.

• 48:58Dax Shepard?

  He's somehow grounded it. Everywhere he's at, he's an art installation.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  But that's why it's grounded in reality, because it is who he is.

• 49:03Dax Shepard?

  Authentic to him, yeah.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  It is who he is, that's at that level.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Raising Arizona and all those like incredible performances. But yeah, look, Warrior was an extraordinary experience. It was definitely also a reminder to myself not to doubt myself in terms of the approach. So I was like, I'm 34, I'm too old for this shit.

• 49:21Dax Shepard?

  How did you get in shape for that? Was it crazy?

• 49:24Speaker 02

  We trained for three months in a fight gym. We had to be there at seven in the morning or we'd get in trouble. I was never late, so I don't know what in trouble meant.

• 49:32Dax Shepard?

  Okay, in trouble from Gavin or someone else?

• 49:35Speaker 02

  From the whole fight crew.

• 49:36Dax Shepard?

  Oh, sure. Okay, yeah.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  And then we'd go and eat lunch all together and then come back and lift weights in the afternoon. And that went on for three months.

• 49:44Dax Shepard?

  Did you love that period?

• 49:45Speaker 02

  I loved it.

• 49:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that kind of discipline feels very good, doesn't it?

• 49:48Speaker 02

  And it felt like it reminded me that some jobs you can fake and some jobs you can't. And it's really good to try and find the 10,000 hours of familiarity so that you can concentrate on the relationships within the film rather than turning up on the day going also like, oh, how do I punch a person while also looking sad?

• 50:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  That was such an extraordinary experience. Gavin O'Connor, the director, taught me a really valuable rule as a director. And I'm always observing directors when I'm working is that he treated every single scene, even the most interstitial scene, as the most important scene in the movie. And I remember thinking, oh, that's really interesting because actors often we go, okay, these four scenes are the big ones.

• 50:30Dax Shepard?

  Even for your fight scenes, you're like, okay, I gotta be on my diet for those four days leading up to that scene. Like, a lot of it has to be mapped out.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  There's a scene with Frank Grillo and I just before I'm about to fight for the first time in the big tournament. And it was written as one eighth of a page, just the guy coming and going, five minutes, guys. And Gavin just sent the whole crew away and he goes, all right, let's make this scene worthy of being in the movie.

• 50:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:54Speaker 02

  And he talked about it and I was like, oh, this is cool. This guy's seeing every single frame as important as every other frame.

• 51:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I like that. I want to talk about Train Dreams. So I watched it last night. I have to watch a lot of stuff because we have a lot of actors. It's been a minute since a movie got me this much. I watched it, I loved it, and then I just have not stopped thinking about it. And then I came in and told my wife the whole plot. And I just have been ruminating on so many things about it. And then as I'm researching, I'm realizing that the director, this Clint Bentley, Had co-written Sing Sing, which was another movie that had this kind of similar beauty to it.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  That movie is kind of extraordinary and unorthodox in so many ways, how patient it is.

• 51:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so let's set it up. Well, the first year we're given is 1917, but you're at that point, probably 30 years old. But your character showed up in a town as an orphan and just kind of stumbled along until he found employment in logging and in bridge direction, working for the railroad. And it's just a very simple, quiet, slow existence.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a celebration, I think, of an ordinary life.

• 52:05Dax Shepard?

  Yes, in the most heartbreaking and tragic and impactful way. I cried several times during it. You're outside in these forests. Were you shooting in Idaho?

• 52:15Speaker 02

  We were shooting outside of Spokane, right near the border of Idaho.

• 52:18Dax Shepard?

  And it's just beautiful. There's enormous trees and the severity of life then is so present, right? The fact that you guys are logging, you're cutting down these enormous trees with the fucking saw that is like this. And the notion that you're doing that 12 hours a day and living out there.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:35Dax Shepard?

  Is so brutal.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  It was an incredible environment to shoot in. And weirdly, you look at this film, it's a period film, and it's based on Dennis Johnson's novella of the same name, Train Dreams. You've got these themes or these sort of incidences in it that feel so relevant to today. It's this sort of idea that the world is moving too fast for these people. Technology is these people harvesting the earth for these sort of trees, not knowing what the outcome of that is going to be. The kind of misuse and mistreatment of immigrant workers being sort of torn away or kind of thrown off bridges for very little reason.

• 53:15Dax Shepard?

  The expendability of all of you.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:17Dax Shepard?

  Present.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  But also this idea, I think, which is interesting to me is like, I'm a husband and I'm in love and I have two little kids and being a dad is the most epic thing that ever happened to me so far in my life. And the ideas within the film of some of the darker moments of losing the people that you care most about. These things are So Shakespearean in our own lives, and yet I don't know that we often look at our own lives and realize how big they are, how full they can be, and how many peaks and troughs exist within them, because we're wired to watch movies and go, we're gonna watch movies about astronauts and generals, but to go to the cinema and see a reflection, even though it's about a logger, go

• 54:00Speaker 02

  I know what that feels like. And in this film is, you're a dad too, this is my greatest fear.

• 54:06Dax Shepard?

  Of course.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  And so when I told my wife, who doesn't love to go to places like Spokane, with the whole family, when her work swells around places like New York and London. But she gets when I care about something and I tried to tell her the story of what happens in the movie. And I get, I'm gonna get it now, when I get to the point about stuff that happens to my character, I couldn't keep talking and she's like, all right, I guess we're going to Spokane.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 54:35Dax Shepard?

  You meet Felicity Jones.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:37Dax Shepard?

  What's her character's name? Oh, Gladys. You have a simple life. And in fact, again, you're so masculine and rugged in it. And I believe you have been working in this logging industry. You pull that off so believably. And the baked in architecture I'm expecting is like this man who's so strong and capable will eventually stand up to somebody and beat the shit out of somebody and be heroic in some moment. And I love that. No, that's not really life. You observe a lot of stuff that you wish you kind of could prevent and you don't have the gumption or whatever it is. You just kind of witness a lot of sadness and heartache and that you don't rise to any occasion. You just kind of go, wow, okay, that's the world, I guess. This is the reality of planet Earth. That guy got thrown off a bridge. Okay.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, now I feel guilty.

• 55:21Dax Shepard?

  But this love story is captured so beautifully between you and Gladys. And then you have this little girl and she's just heartbreaking. That little kid was so fucking good.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:30Dax Shepard?

  What was she, three?

• 55:31Speaker 02

  She was like two and a half. They were twins, you know, when you go on the movie sets.

• 55:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because they can only work for her.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Mary Kate Mash.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they might be future designers of great clothing.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  They might have an empire coming.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 55:44Dax Shepard?

  You should invest in them now.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  Better stay in contact.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  We had twins and one was disinterested in everything and the other was very playful. So Clint would be like, which one do we get for which scene?

• 55:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fun.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  My best friend works at Netflix. She's on the Train Dreams campaign and she fought so hard for it. She saw it at Sundance. She came back, she was like, this movie is so unbelievably good. It's the best movie I've seen in a long time. And she fought to be on it and she helped create the trailer and stuff. But she's been talking about it ever since. She is such a fan.

• 56:18Speaker 02

  It breaks people open in a good way in the sense that I think movies are a really great place to get some emotion out of yourself by reflecting things in someone else's life. But also I think it's also good to be reminded of people you've lost or joys that you've experienced in life. And Robert's whole life, it's not a Western that's about revenge or retribution. It's about the world punching him in the stomach and him finding a way of getting back up. And the kindness of strangers that helped rebuild us, like the forest re growing after a fire. And I find it very moving and very personal. And for all of the Gatsby's and Black Masses I've ever been involved in where I think my whole pursuit has been,

• 57:01Speaker 02

  how can I make people believe that I'm somebody I'm not? And I've always been terrified about being myself on screen.

• 57:10Dax Shepard?

  Well, I was gonna also add, you have almost no dialogue in this movie.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:14Dax Shepard?

  And we become so reliant on expressing how we feel through words that really it's gonna have to be in your eyes. Was that scary at all or did you look forward to that?

• 57:22Speaker 02

  I sort of looked forward to it. I'd been through the experience of making this movie with Ruth Nager, that Jeff Nichols, the director called Loving. And my character in that, funny, was a real life character, Richard Loving. And he barely said a word. I mean, he was interviewed numerous times. His wife would do the talking. He was so inarticulate. Jeff, in the first week, I always go up to a director in the first couple of days and go, look, do not be afraid to tell me where I'm steering this thing wrong. I have no ego, just help me out here. And Jeff's like, I have one note for you. I want to understand you less.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Hmm. Less.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  He gave me very few words to say, which was inserting with who Richard Loving was. And I felt like that sort of set the table for me for train dreams of trusting that if you think the right things and so much of what Robert experiences, I'm not a logger, obviously, but I fret about how to marry life and work. I am a man that's in love. I am a person that cares more about my kids than anything else in the world. So if you think those things, they'll be there for the camera. And the challenge for me was that Robert is less expressive than me. So making sure that with the hardest stuff in the film, I just knew how to keep a lid on it. Cause normally when I go to work, I'm like, geez, I hope I can do this scene.

• 58:39Speaker 02

  You know, particularly those ones you worry about the emotional things. You go, can I do this today?

• 58:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And isn't it funny, as soon as you give yourself the fear that I might have too much emotion, then the emotion's like overly available. It's such a mind trick.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  I think it was David Mamet, who sort of has lots of wonderful things to say about his opinions on actors, whether you agree with him or not. Some of them are really wonderful. He has this wonderful thing where he talks about actors when they have to cry on screen. He's like, the problem with actors when they cry on screen is that their ego gets so excited when they get there, that they're sort of clicking their heels or patting themselves on the back.

• 59:12Dax Shepard?

  They're almost smiling while they're crying.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  So they're trying to cry too much. And then while they're celebrating themselves, it's the opposite of the feeling they should be having. Right. So this oscillating like, I'm crying, you know, I know I shouldn't be happy about it. I kind of felt like this was a good chance to do for me, what I've often admired in some actors, which is watching that performance, I feel like I know you. The only way you can really do that in my mind is go, do you really connect with it? How well connected can you be to the material? And then just sort of open your chest up in some way. There's a moment in the film when my character expresses some first kind of showing a real grief about something bad that's happened.

• 59:53Speaker 02

  And the first thing he says afterwards is, I'm sorry, I don't know what came over me. And that really typifies to me a lot of men that I've known in my life at the very start. And if they get upset, they would leave the room, lest anybody saw them.

• 1:00:07Dax Shepard?

  It also captures, and this is oddly a very big ding ding ding to how we started this conversation, which is they capture really well the awkwardness between men. Men are very awkward around each other. If they don't come with a pair, they don't feel bolstered by something. You put eight strangers in the woods and it's like, none of them wanna talk. And whoever does talks gets kind of blasted. And if they talk, they're crazy. All that stuff feels very authentic and I remember a lot of those situations.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  That's really interesting that you say that. Yeah.

• 1:00:36Dax Shepard?

  Like you would have put eight women in that forest together. They would have known everything about each other and they would have been like great friends. But you put these men in this situation, they're just like, they don't know what the fuck to do.

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Dax Shepard?

  It's like the intimacy is so scary.

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  I was saying to one of my buddies recently, I said, it's an interesting, men don't get together and brush each other's hair.

• 1:00:54Dax Shepard?

  Right, right.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  You guys are missing out. It feels so good.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, but we're scared of intimacy with each other. There's no world where, apart from maybe my brother or something, like if a buddy comes around to stay the night, then I'm like, nah, one of us is sleeping on the floor. It's a king sized bed, you know, we're not brushing each other's hair. And it's fear of intimacy.

• 1:01:14Dax Shepard?

  Well, specifically, it's a fear of being called gay from when we were younger. I don't know how it was in Australia, but in Detroit, you lived all day in fear of who was gonna call you gay.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  You just reminded me of-

• 1:01:27Dax Shepard?

  It's crazy.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  I was in Bondi Beach, my really good friend Damien and I were at the north end of Bondi Beach. In summer, it's packed. We're near this boat ramp. He's got a bad spine and every now and then he's like, can you crack my back? But he's wearing this really tight Speedo and he's a very fit, sort of tanned, Italian, Australian guy. And I was still like, ah, there's a lot of people around here. I was like, yeah, all right, fucking, I'll get it. Get over myself, you know what I mean? I can crack your back, fine. And so I wrapped my arms around him and he's all oiled up with that tropical oil, which makes it hard. So I grabbed him on the elbows.

• 1:02:02Dax Shepard?

  Like greased up chicken.

• 1:02:02Speaker 02

  And I'd finally get a purchase on his elbows and I lift him up and I hear crack, crack, crack. And it's like, great. And I drop him down. And then I looked to my left and there's a row of about 20 teenagers just sitting there with their arms crossed, staring at us. Weirdly felt embarrassed for myself. I'm like, fuck, should I feel embarrassed for myself?

• 1:02:22Dax Shepard?

  I'm rubbing Damien's back. I'm helping my buddy be more athletic.

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  I'm an unqualified chiropractor. Go fuck yourself.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just in there. It's innate and yeah.

• 1:02:34Dax Shepard?

  It's because it happens to you. You get called these names nonstop when you're a little kid.

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  But also, who cares?

• 1:02:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah. I do sleep with my best friend in the same bed.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  You do brush?

• 1:02:44Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  He brushed your hair today?

• 1:02:45Dax Shepard?

  Dude, we snuggled when we were younger. We're both straight, didn't have dads around. We're like, yeah, I need some male affection. Let's go for it. But I think that was very fucking unique where I'm from.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  You probably weren't telling people.

• 1:02:58Dax Shepard?

  No, we didn't go to school and be like, oh, we had the best. We watched this raise Arizona. We kind of were snuggling. My mom asked me on the side like, you know, if you guys are gay, you can tell me. Like even my mom had to say, this is welcome. But if she walked in and you and Callie were brushing each other's hair, it wouldn't even cross her mind, you're lesbian.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  No, no, it would not. Do you watch Couples Therapy? Have you ever watched that show? Oh, it's a fantastic show.

• 1:03:20Dax Shepard?

  It's a reality show.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, but with a real therapist who's amazing.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  And real people put themselves on the slab to be talked about.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  That don't have that pixelated face and the FBI voice.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  No, they're there.

• 1:03:30Dax Shepard?

  They're there.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  They're exposing themselves.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  And there was this one couple and this one man who had this huge secret. He was carrying this huge secret the whole season. He like wouldn't share it, wouldn't share it. Finally, he shares that in college, his friends saw him looking at male porn.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  And it was like, this incident was chipping away at his soul.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  Like it had grown into a green moss inside of him or something.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Yes, and I'm like, that's the secret? For me as a woman, that's crazy.

• 1:04:08Dax Shepard?

  But it's an immediate ejection. It's an ostracizing from all males in your world. You're like a man without a country.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it made me feel very, very compassionate and sad for men. I'm like, that one thing has caused this man to go on this trajectory his whole life?

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  That kind of pressure put on yourself.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Yes, it's so unfair.

• 1:04:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I hope it's lessening. It feels like it is. But I feel like I came up in peak.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  It also depends, like you got the map of the world behind you. I'm sure you could just point anywhere and go safe, unsafe. Like as in safe to kind of be openly whoever you wanna be, whatever that is. Or not fear certain things. I know that we like to think in LA and New York and Sydney, you could be whoever you are. Your choices or the color of your skin is fine or your gender preferences are fine. Your personal pronouns are fine. Literally 10 miles down the road, you'd be keeping a secret. I went to, when I was making this film, Boy Raised, which is about gay conversion therapy. I went to Arkansas with my assistant, David, who is, he's no longer my assistant now.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  He's a director in his own right and doing incredibly well. But David's gay. He and his husband just made a movie together. But David turned up at the hotel in the morning. We were about to go to church, to go to this church in Arkansas, 200 kilometers down the road from the harbor of the KKK. He said to me, do I look too gay? Should I change my clothes?

• 1:05:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  And I started going, yeah, maybe. And I was like, you know what? Fuck it, no. But he was afraid walking into the church.

• 1:05:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  That there were people carrying guns. It was an overblown fear, but it also was tethered to something real. So stepping into that zone after a few hours flight from LA, where life is totally free and fine and all, but then cut to whatever years later, after that movie, when all rights and freedoms and general acceptance of things, it becomes okay to march all progress backwards. Almost to the point where we feel like we should re-release Boy Raised or do a new cut of the film or get all the old footage that we never put in the film and release it in some way, because things have gotten worse since then.

• 1:06:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:30Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:06:36Dax Shepard?

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• 1:07:59Dax Shepard?

  This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not-so-dreamy parts, the stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now, that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it, start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  They never are.

• 1:08:42Dax Shepard?

  To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

• 1:08:48Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Skims. So Monica just informed me that she's a girl's girl, and I nodded like I knew exactly what that meant.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the girls who get it, they get it.

• 1:08:59Dax Shepard?

  Okay, but for those of us who are clearly not girls, walk me through it.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  Well, you know how much I love my Skims fleece joggers because the plush fleece is so soft, it's cozy, it's really comfortable without feeling too heavy. Well, I went to friend them, and she would not stop talking about how comfy they were. She almost didn't give them back to me, which was upsetting, but I'm a girl's girl, so I let her have it.

• 1:09:20Dax Shepard?

  Great, great, great.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  So the sleep sets are awesome because they are very soft and comfortable, but they're cute. If I'm in my sleep set, I feel fine about going down the street to pick up my food. I'm still looking cute, but I'm comfy and I'm cozy.

• 1:09:35Dax Shepard?

  Roger.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  A really fun thing to do is if you're going on vacation with your girlfriends, to get matching Skims pajamas. I've done this with Callie, and it is so fun. First of all, the pics are so cute, but also it's just fun and friendship.

• 1:09:48Dax Shepard?

  So a girl's girl is looking out for your friends with better loungewear. I get it. Am I one of your girls now?

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  You are. You and the other girlies can shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcasts in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows.

• 1:10:08Dax Shepard?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. October 10th is World Mental Health Day, but you don't need a day on the calendar to give yourself permission to talk to someone. I've been in therapy for a long time, and the stuff rattling around in my head always just quiets down the second I say it out loud. And it doesn't have to be some big life crisis. Maybe it's a work thing that's taking up too much space, or hard relationship moment, or just a feeling that something's off. That's enough. That's worth talking about.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  You know, I love therapy more than anything. Gets me through. Often I'll want to cancel because I'm like, I don't really have anything to talk about. And then I'll go and I have some major revelation.

• 1:10:57Dax Shepard?

  A friend who has just started it and I said, one of the most powerful elements of it is just hearing yourself say out loud, the thing that's been ruminating in your head and how different it sounds. Once it's out into the world, you gain perspective immediately just by hearing yourself say it.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do.

• 1:11:12Dax Shepard?

  If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside the U.S. You can still get 10% off your first month. Do yourself a favor and just try it. Future you will be grateful. Visit betterhelp.com/dax to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com slash DAX.

• 1:11:46Dax Shepard?

  Well, the other thing about the movie that has really resonated with me, and I think in some ways it should be required viewing for everyone in 2025 is there's something so depressing about the fact that in 1917, just getting food and having clothes for you and your wife and your baby was the struggle and you worked so hard and had to be away from them for so long to provide that. And then in your lifetime, you see a man land on the moon, which is crazy, you know, to go from that to no electrification, saws to chainsaws to steam powered tractors to a man landing on the moon is almost inconceivable for someone to witness.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Dax Shepard?

  But the notion that we transferred into abundance, maybe there was a couple of weeks where people were satiated and felt grateful, but I'm so shook when I see that movie of how unsafe we all feel and how much we all still pine for things. And it's like, oh, wow, we live in total abundance and that we can eat whenever we want and shelters pretty obtainable and clothes are pretty cheap. That was the struggle for 200,000 years. Homo sapiens were here. And then within five minutes, it's literally about, do you have phone 12 or 13 as a crisis? It's so depressing.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:08Dax Shepard?

  And so human, like what the fuck? When you watch this movie and you think, how could we have problems when the abundance has arrived?

• 1:13:15Speaker 02

  There's a moment where my character stares at a chainsaw in the movie and he can't seem to get it to work. And it's like me thinking about, do I download chat G P T?

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:13:25Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:13:26Speaker 02

  Still haven't done. The one time I played with it on another friend's phone, he goes, look, just type something you wanna see. And I was like, I wanna see a dog giving a lecture in the nineteen fifty's in a university hall. I don't know why I chose that.

• 1:13:38Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  And then I changed the type of dog and it blew my mind enough to make it terrifying for me to go, I'm not ready for this. But I know I have to engage. But I remember the first time I pointed a video camera at my grandmother and she froze. Cause she was like, well, this is a photograph.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  I'm like, no, you're allowed to move. Just thinking about her generation, which is my character in the film is like the telephone. And she started her life without electricity. And then you're right, it would have blown her mind, the pace of things. Now look at us.

• 1:14:09Dax Shepard?

  My very favorite thing about the early years of the video camera, when you watch anyone's early home videos, for some reason, everyone thought they needed to narrate what you were already seeing. Here's Jenny opening her present.

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  That's so true.

• 1:14:24Dax Shepard?

  She got a present from grandma. Jenny, let's see the present. Oh, it's a.

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  It's a cabbage patch.

• 1:14:30Dax Shepard?

  Every time I see, I'm like, why did we think we, we were seeing it? I don't think we really realized yet that they would be seeing it. We use it as an audio recorder.

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  That's.

• 1:14:39Dax Shepard?

  Okay, here's Glenn on his new bike. Wave, this is Glenn. Yeah, fuck yeah, we know it's Glenn. He's your son in this home video.

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  We can see it.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  Oh wow.

• 1:14:51Dax Shepard?

  Going into the study now. Yeah, it's the study, dad.

• 1:14:57Speaker 02

  I still have this old video of me being a goalkeeper on a soccer match when I was like six years old. I saved the goal and then the striker from the other team, he comes up, tries to kick the ball while I'm holding it. I got winded.

• 1:15:10Dax Shepard?

  Like it knocked the wind out of you?

• 1:15:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm just lying on the ground.

• 1:15:13Dax Shepard?

  It's so scary when you're little.

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  And my dad, who's probably holding the camera, is like, you know, like.

• 1:15:17Dax Shepard?

  A refrigerator on his shoulder, yeah.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  And you just hear his voice yelling, get up, Joel.

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 1:15:28Dax Shepard?

  Well, okay, the line in the movie that just fucking sent me was on that spring day, when he had misplaced a sense of up and down, he knew finally that he was connected to it all. And I was like, yeah.

• 1:15:44Dax Shepard?

  Dude, that's one of the best lines I've ever.

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  There's something about the wisdom in the movie. One of the things that you can pull out of it is this idea that at the end of the day, it's all been worth it, or it's all okay. And that Robert, as a character, for all of the things that he's gone through, is reconciled to something that there's a comfort in all of it. And I do believe that occasionally when I do stop doom scrolling or something pulls me out into my own sense of self and retrospect, is looking at the snapshots of life. In some way, there's a journey or every now and then there's a fractured memory of life from any period of your life.

• 1:16:28Speaker 02

  Or even talking today with you, I have images in my head of times with my brother and my father. And life is beautiful. And life is not going to all be beautiful. Every now and then you get brought to your knees. But that's all of us. And I spoke to this lady last night and we were talking about kindness. Just when a stranger does something generous and particularly after the fires in California, which is sort of resonant in train dreams. I talked to her about kindness, which I've experienced many times in my life, where I'm like, somebody selflessly, something so simple, but it means the world to you in some way that helps you bring yourself back into the world. And she just sort of broke open because she was talking about just the strange little things

• 1:17:12Speaker 02

  that popped up from people after the fires. Suddenly I opened the front door and there's food there for her and her family. And someone sent some clothes for her kids. And I believe at the core of us as kids, until we're corrupted, that we are actually wired to look after each other. Even if we're not family, we don't really want to hurt each other. I like to think that's our core human value. And I think we'd like to see that reflected in its own way in stories as well. Cause we know there's a lot of awfulness out there. And the awfulness is within us in the wrong situation, like we talked about. Our rage is always there, but I think our beauty and our love is also there.

• 1:17:54Dax Shepard?

  And I can be compassionate to our rage because at the very core of all rage is deep, deep fear.

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:01Dax Shepard?

  We get scared a lot.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  I agree with you. I think that's what motivates rage is fear, protectiveness and mistrust. And it's a culture that leads us to that. I also feel I'm getting back to your ape.

• 1:18:11Dax Shepard?

  Chimp empire.

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  Don't you think that most alpha males are actually just sort of fearful people hiding in plain sight too? It's like the fear of having to emulate or project or be something that maybe deep down, no one feels like they're a superhero and unbreakable.

• 1:18:28Dax Shepard?

  I think we all hate alphas in some way because we see it as like, oh, this person has to be the ruler. But for me, it's like, no, no, I'm paying attention. There's lots of fucking threats and no one else seems to be, and I need to get involved.

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  I've noticed this with a lot of people I met during Warrior who were fighters. The people I thought were the real alphas were the kind of quietly stoic guys who didn't puff themselves up, didn't presume to kind of cajole people or kind of push people around. The ones who didn't brag about themselves.

• 1:19:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:02Speaker 02

  It was the ones just to the right who kind of puffed themselves up a little bit. It was like, you're almost alpha, but you gotta remind us how alpha you are, which means you're no longer alpha to me.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Those quietly people you look at and go, I want to walk down an alleyway with you.

• 1:19:18Dax Shepard?

  My experience with that, which was so crystal clear, was doing two different USO tours in Afghanistan and hanging out with all the enlisted dudes and then going to the special forces camp a few different times and going like, oh, this is crazy. These guys are so calm. There's no machismo, no one's flexing because they're the real operators and they don't need to let anyone know because they know. I was like, oh yeah, this is something.

• 1:19:45Speaker 02

  Dude, there was a funny moment. Talk about different people's skill sets and what makes you feel comfortable or uncomfortable on Zero Dark Thirty. Kathryn Bigelow asked one of the real ex dev group Navy SEAL guys, beautiful guy. He said, oh, in this scene, one of you guys to walk the perimeter with the canine. I'd like you to say this line on the radio, basically is like on the comms. He had to say something like perimeter clear. Same guy two days earlier had told me about a mission where they had parachuted in in the middle of the night, carrying a big oil drum that had been jerry rigged, basically filled up with weapons. So two guys parachuting, holding this barrel, land in the ocean,

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  frog suits swim up to this thing where these pirates are taken of this ship. And they'd go in there, kill all the pirates and save the hostages. And they did it. It went smoothly and successfully. And two days later, Catherine's like, can you say one line of dialogue in the movie? And he suddenly starts tearing. He gets terrified and he's like, I'm freaking out, I'm freaking out. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I can't, but you're parachuting in the middle of the night.

• 1:20:53Dax Shepard?

  It goes to show how asymmetric fear is and how rooted in nothing it is.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, right?

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  And it's how individual it is.

• 1:21:00Dax Shepard?

  It's just so arbitrary. It's like, here's a guy who will parachute in and board a pirate ship.

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  I just couldn't believe it. Okay, everything he told me about the story, there was a thousand reasons why that was really actually terrifying.

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  And he's like, one line of dialogue, oh, boy.

• 1:21:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:17Speaker 02

  He was shaking.

• 1:21:19Dax Shepard?

  Well, it illustrates that fear of death is just one of the fears and that could be low on your thing. And then fear of humiliation could be a thirty.

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  Maybe if Catherine had catched it this way, say, first of all, you gotta walk in there, kill a dude.

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:32Speaker 02

  Say this line of dialogue, then you kill another dude.

• 1:21:34Dax Shepard?

  You should put a barrel on his back.

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  This is a murder sandwich, I can do this.

• 1:21:37Dax Shepard?

  Well, Joel, this has been a blast. I really, really love that movie. I really hope everyone sees it. It's fucking beautiful. And it really forces you because of the pacing. It's so slow. It makes you kind of slow down and it does make you take stock of the things that have true value in your life, which is a rare feeling to have when watching a movie.

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:57Dax Shepard?

  I'm mostly watching Mission Impossible, like, I gotta learn how to fucking. Parkour. I need to get out of a situation.

• 1:22:05Speaker 02

  I always think this, like, you know, you see these kids doing these crazy Instagram videos now, like, these real asymmetric gymnastic things and new ways of training and parkour was one of them back 15, 20 years ago. I was like, if I was a young person now, I'd be into all of this stuff.

• 1:22:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm nervous I'd be dead because I'd also want to be a hero on the videos.

• 1:22:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:26Dax Shepard?

  I was in the narrating phase of video cameras.

• 1:22:29Speaker 02

  Well, you guys have an incredible following on your podcast, but I'd be worried if I was just starting as a young person on Instagram, that I'd get wrapped up in how many followers I had.

• 1:22:38Dax Shepard?

  Of course you would.

• 1:22:39Speaker 02

  The cycle of that depression would be huge. And I worry about all that stuff, the engagement of social media. It feels like smartphones ruin my productivity. I should just turn the thing off and just make stories up instead of watching other people fall off a building.

• 1:22:58Dax Shepard?

  I was swimming with my daughter last night and she had shadowed at my older daughter's school for the day. So it was like her first taste of what it'll be like at this new school. She's in a class and she has nothing to do because they're teaching on some subject and they just handed her a ton of paper. She's telling me how many things she drew. She's like, I drew this and then I drew a picture of that and then I drew another. And I was like, oh yeah, when you were in class, you're bored out of your mind. I did more fucking drawing in high school than I've ever drawn since. More note passing. I'm drawing, I'm writing because I'm bored. Yeah. And I hate being there. Fiddling. And that's what it's robbed us of.

• 1:23:32Speaker 02

  I found a drawing that my friend Chris Howard and I drew in science class when we were in, I think it was grade eight. And we were designing and really actually designing for the future, but we were designing a nuclear bunker.

• 1:23:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  But it was on science paper. You know, that grid paper?

• 1:23:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  And it had a tunnel to a grocery store and had a tunnel to a brewery. But it was definitely a dude bunker because then there was a room too. And it was very rudimentary. It was early days. It wasn't like proper tech.

• 1:24:04Dax Shepard?

  And it was an overhead schematic? You were seeing overhead?

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  It was like looking at an ant's nest, you know, like tunnel here in a box. And then there was one room, which I assume was just like our harem. I'd stick figures of girls with like, long hair.

• 1:24:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:20Speaker 02

  This is the girls' room and this is the girls' room. Yeah. And then we had a helicopter pad ready for when the atmosphere was going to be right again. So we were certain, and at different times in my life, I've been certain, and now particularly after watching House of Dynamite, I'm like, yeah, we're always inches away from me needing to go back to my bunker design.

• 1:24:40Dax Shepard?

  Pull out the design.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  Girl room for sure though. I'm good without the girl room. I'm like, I get the playroom for the kids.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Maybe turn that into a school or something.

• 1:24:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. There was no educational facility. That's a good point.

• 1:24:52Dax Shepard?

  Everyone knew what they needed to know already.

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  What have we got to teach the world? If the world's ended with nuclear power, then we're all dummies anyway.

• 1:24:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. We know everything we need to know already. All right. Well, Train Dreams is in theaters on November 7th, and then it is on Netflix for All to Consume, November 21st. I hope everyone watches it. It's great. And Joel, I hope we get to have you on again. This is so fun.

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  Thanks, man. This was great.

• 1:25:16Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't up there. What was it? Your makeup was it? Yeah, my foundation. I am annoyed.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  Don't make fun of me. I was supposed to put makeup on and then my makeup was stolen.

• 1:25:40Dax Shepard?

  Well, it seems unlikely. I don't want to not believe her, but it does seem unlikely.

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I keep a little bag of makeup upstairs.

• 1:25:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  And there was some in there, but not the foundation, the important part.

• 1:25:58Dax Shepard?

  Now, Bobby Brown is against foundation?

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  No, she's into a natural look.

• 1:26:03Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  So she wouldn't probably want like, cakey foundation.

• 1:26:07Dax Shepard?

  Thick.

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Her foundation was the first foundation I ever used. It was a stick.

• 1:26:13Dax Shepard?

  I'm glad to hear that's the truth because you told her that in the interview. And if I found out now.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  You think I would lie about that?

• 1:26:18Dax Shepard?

  I'm going to flatter her maybe.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  No, I don't do that.

• 1:26:21Dax Shepard?

  Kind gesture.

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  I don't do that.

• 1:26:23Dax Shepard?

  You know, do kind gestures at the expense of the truth.

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:26:26Dax Shepard?

  I do occasionally. Like, you like my new shirt? Yeah.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. You you always say that to me. You said that the other day about my shoes. Yep, I saw. I said, do you like my shoes? And you said.

• 1:26:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you can't trust me. I'll just be, I'll give you the playbook.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:40Dax Shepard?

  You can't trust me if you ask me, but if I unsolicited mention that I like your sweater or something, that's genuine. Ask me what I think of your boots.

• 1:26:52Speaker 01

  Do you like these?

• 1:26:53Dax Shepard?

  But, you know, like, hey, do you like my new boots? Because there's always some enthusiasm.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Oh, hey, I just got these new boots. Do you like them?

• 1:26:59Dax Shepard?

  No, I mean, that's devastating, right? Look at you, even even in an acting exercise, it hit you.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  I don't, I.

• 1:27:04Dax Shepard?

  Right?

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't like that game.

• 1:27:07Dax Shepard?

  I know, but do you see the point it proved?

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you just say like, yeah, yeah, what you're right is a lot.

• 1:27:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, boots.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Why don't you like these? For real? Do you like them or no?

• 1:27:17Dax Shepard?

  No, they don't have nothing. I said, pick anything.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  But now I'm asking for real.

• 1:27:20Dax Shepard?

  They're they're great.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Are you serious?

• 1:27:23Dax Shepard?

  They're not bad. They're not. I wouldn't turn my head at them. They're not. They're neutral, which is a win.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:27:30Dax Shepard?

  When failure is on the table, neutral is a win.

• 1:27:35Dax Shepard?

  You hate it because it's silver medal.

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  It's also not. These are gold medal shoes. It's like the judge was not qualified and I shouldn't have asked.

• 1:27:45Dax Shepard?

  You're attacking me and there's all the more reason to just lie. Ask me again. Ask me again.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  You like my boots?

• 1:27:50Dax Shepard?

  I was just thinking, those are the greatest boots I've ever seen in my life.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're you'd be right.

• 1:27:54Dax Shepard?

  And then when you go, I like you.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  You're my friend. Yeah, I'm having a bad morning.

• 1:28:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's okay. Let's talk about it.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  My makeup got stolen, one.

• 1:28:06Dax Shepard?

  Well.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Two.

• 1:28:07Dax Shepard?

  First of all, I saw you.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  You don't like my boots.

• 1:28:09Dax Shepard?

  Hold on, hold on, hold on. I saw you before your makeup was quote stolen.

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:13Dax Shepard?

  And you're already feeling a little melancholy.

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  Well, I I'm annoyed is what it is.

• 1:28:18Dax Shepard?

  Even melancholy. I'm melancholy. You're annoyed.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  You're melancholy?

• 1:28:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, wait, I'm not trying to trump your annoy annoyance.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I just got some like annoying news.

• 1:28:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  And I'm annoyed.

• 1:28:29Dax Shepard?

  Your house is gonna take longer than you thought.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  I just feel defeated.

• 1:28:33Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  And my parents are supposed to, you know, my parents are can always supposed to come and they can never come.

• 1:28:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  So my dad's retiring and he wants to come.

• 1:28:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, now he can't.

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  Now he has to keep working.

• 1:28:46Dax Shepard?

  Now he's gonna work until his last days.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  He has to work until my house is ready. That was the, that was the contract he made.

• 1:28:54Dax Shepard?

  With his employer?

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was weird. It was unconventional.

• 1:28:57Dax Shepard?

  I can go and give you as long as it takes for my houses, my houses, my daughter's house to be completed.

• 1:29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they were like, oh God, he's gonna then be out of here in a year.

• 1:29:06Dax Shepard?

  No, they're building a house in LA. You got a long time. You can start a.

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  He has a decade. It's okay. I'll be over in like an hour when we're done with this.

• 1:29:17Dax Shepard?

  After we're done. We're done with work.

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  I'll be done.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, but anyway, it's fine. Some happy things are that the other day, you know, well, it's also been raining, but, but.

• 1:29:33Dax Shepard?

  Shockingly.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  I've done well.

• 1:29:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you've weathered the storm, as we might say.

• 1:29:37Speaker 01

  I have leaned into the cozy nature of the rain.

• 1:29:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, it's so fun.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  I've made the decision to enjoy it.

• 1:29:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, good.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  And I was walking back to the car with Jess a couple of days ago and it was raining a little bit like sprinkling. And from far away in the distance, we hear this little voice and she said, you guys okay in the rain?

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  And she got a little closer. She had her umbrella and she was with a man, presumably her dad, but there's not, no way for me to know that.

• 1:30:16Dax Shepard?

  You didn't have access to a DNA test?

• 1:30:18Speaker 01

  She was so spunky. And we were like, yeah, we're okay. Are you? And she was like, yeah, he's making me carry this.

• 1:30:28Dax Shepard?

  Oh, she was complaining about.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, she didn't want to carry the umbrella.

• 1:30:31Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  And I said, oh, yeah, but you look cute.

• 1:30:36Dax Shepard?

  Nice.

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  And she, she said, yeah, I got these glasses today. They came in the mail.

• 1:30:42Dax Shepard?

  Oh, and she ordered them?

• 1:30:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:43Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. They came in the mail.

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  And then, and then I felt, okay, then I felt bad. So she took them. I was like, oh my gosh, I love them so much. And she took them off and she was starting to clean them.

• 1:30:53Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  And I was like, yeah, give him a little cleaning. And then the dad was like, no. No, remember, you're not supposed to do that unless. And I was like, I don't remember what he's, they obviously had a rule about, maybe she's broken some glasses before.

• 1:31:07Dax Shepard?

  Or maybe she wipes them compulsively.

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  Maybe, I don't know.

• 1:31:11Dax Shepard?

  Sounds like it. The first thing he says, nice glasses. You're like, yeah, let's sniff these up.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  But he didn't like that and I felt bad because I encouraged it.

• 1:31:18Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  And then I was mad at him because I was like, just let her, we're having a conversation. She just wants to clean her glasses, it's fine.

• 1:31:26Dax Shepard?

  This is the tension of parenting. You're like, what? What are habits I need to point out that need broken? And who gives a fuck?

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  If he is a parent or not, we don't know. But anyway, she put them back on and, you know, she was chit chatting with us and I said, what's your name? And she said, A, B, B, B, B, B, Y.

• 1:31:48Dax Shepard?

  No, Abby with four Bs.

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  And then I said Abby and then Jess was, you know, like Abba B B B. And then the dad under his breath said, too many Bs.

• 1:32:01Dax Shepard?

  But what he was actually referring to is there was Bs in a tree up ahead. It seemed like they would like each other.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  I felt like he was an overwhelmed dad.

• 1:32:08Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  I think we said like, what are you guys doing? And they're like, we're just on a walk around, you know, like get some. I think he was, he was saying get some energy out.

• 1:32:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, but yeah, okay.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  And so I think like she's.

• 1:32:21Dax Shepard?

  She's a handful.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, because she's so special. And it was, you know, then we left, he said bye to Abby.

• 1:32:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, B B B B.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and I was like, oh my God, what a special person.

• 1:32:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:34Speaker 01

  And I was like, but yeah, I guess if you're in charge of that person, that's hard.

• 1:32:39Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  Double edged sword. So sparkly.

• 1:32:43Dax Shepard?

  I have a couple of those.

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  I know. You guys okay in the rain? From so far away, it was so.

• 1:32:50Dax Shepard?

  She heard someone say that at some point. And I was like, oh, that's a thing to say. I should say that at some point.

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:57Dax Shepard?

  The opportunity presented itself.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  She was so cute and she had like the cutest hair, dude. Anyway, I really liked her, Abby.

• 1:33:06Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:33:13Speaker 06

  Confidence, it's listening to your gut. It's moving forward even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations. Whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it, we're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific Life, the power of a promise. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska. And in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 1:33:49Dax Shepard?

  Speaking of cute.

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:51Dax Shepard?

  I took my number one girl.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  Well, don't say that.

• 1:33:54Dax Shepard?

  I have two number one girls, but I want to be able to say number one girl. But I have two number one girls.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  Okay, I just, all right.

• 1:33:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:02Dax Shepard?

  Well, I want to say something.

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  I know, but I'm just like, if one of them heard that, they wouldn't like, I'm just telling you.

• 1:34:06Dax Shepard?

  That's why I said I have two number one girls.

• 1:34:08Speaker 01

  No one likes to hear that.

• 1:34:09Dax Shepard?

  Well, I do. That's unfortunate for them, but I have two number one girls.

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:34:13Dax Shepard?

  And I took the younger of the two number one girls to Sabrina Carpenter on Sunday.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:34:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I'm like, um.

• 1:34:29Dax Shepard?

  I can't describe the feeling.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  I feel like I, I like know it.

• 1:34:34Dax Shepard?

  Do you know it?

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do.

• 1:34:35Dax Shepard?

  I'm like lovesick. I'm lovesick.

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  It's so overwhelming.

• 1:34:39Dax Shepard?

  It's overwhelming and I'm lovesick. I can't believe that I got to be with her when she was at her first concert of someone she loved and watching her dance and scream and sing along and wave the phone over her head with the light on and clapping on cue.

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  Be alive.

• 1:35:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:04Dax Shepard?

  Oh, so much.

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:06Dax Shepard?

  And then now I'm stuck, this very junior high of me and high school, I'm stuck on "Don't Smile," the Sabrina song.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're listening to it a lot.

• 1:35:16Dax Shepard?

  Over and over again, all day long for, I guess, four or five days now. Because I started listening to it even before we went. And then I listen to the song when I look at the pictures of us at the concert. And then I get really emotional. And so, yeah, I feel like I'm in junior high and I'm just overwhelmed with feelings of love.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:34Dax Shepard?

  And they're kind of original and new and it's very, very nice.

• 1:35:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:40Dax Shepard?

  And I'm quick to tell myself when I buy a donut for $20 to avoid the line. So I'm gonna tell you, I did do the full merch line. As soon as we walked into Staples, I hate calling it crypto. That's the dumbest name for, and also what crypto? Just generally speaking, crypto? It's crypto.com. Oh, okay.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  That makes more sense.

• 1:36:01Dax Shepard?

  I liked Staples. It was called Staples, Staples Center, not even Staples Arena.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:06Dax Shepard?

  I liked it.

• 1:36:07Speaker 01

  I'm sure you did.

• 1:36:08Dax Shepard?

  Cause you could always say to your wife or your partner, like, I gotta run up to Staples. And you're not lying if you go to a Lakers game.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Oh, it's about deception?

• 1:36:19Dax Shepard?

  Well, they might think that you're going to get school supplies or office supplies.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Dax Shepard?

  And no one, like, let's put it this way. If someone says they gotta go to Staples, you're like, oh, yeah, sorry, you gotta do that. It's not, you're not going to Neiman Marcus to go shopping for fun. You are there for utility items and it's a chore.

• 1:36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:38Dax Shepard?

  So you go like, oh, I gotta run to Staples. And then you go see the Lakers play.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:36:43Dax Shepard?

  And then you come home and your partner is like, first of all, where?

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  Where have you been?

• 1:36:47Dax Shepard?

  Why did it take that long?

• 1:36:48Speaker 01

  Where have you been?

• 1:36:49Dax Shepard?

  And where's all the items?

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  What'd you get?

• 1:36:51Dax Shepard?

  And you go, what do you mean? I, I went, I went to the Lakers game.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  What? You said you were going to Staples?

• 1:36:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, at Staples Center.

• 1:36:57Speaker 01

  Out.

• 1:36:58Dax Shepard?

  Out? I said I'm going to Staples.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  You're a deceptive beast.

• 1:37:02Dax Shepard?

  No, I'm not deceptive. I said I'm going to Staples and I went to Staples. Now, let's try this again. All right, I'll see, I'm heading over to crypto.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  Wait, you're gonna invest in crypto?

• 1:37:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  Wait, no, we need to talk about that. We have, what?

• 1:37:21Dax Shepard?

  You're gonna invest in crypto.com? Okay.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Okay, so you go to crypto.

• 1:37:25Dax Shepard?

  So I go into Staples and, uh, you know, we gotta walk a while to our section. So we walk through about a half of the arena or whatever. And there's a couple of different merch stations.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:37Dax Shepard?

  And fuck dude, they're, you know, you know, you know, you're at these concerts.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  These lines are insane.

• 1:37:42Dax Shepard?

  Hundreds of people, right?

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  Oh, thousands.

• 1:37:44Dax Shepard?

  And it's like winding back and forth and you're not even quite sure where one enters this line.

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:48Dax Shepard?

  And I clocked it and I was like, oh boy, let's see if she's gonna ask for some merch.

• 1:37:54Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:37:55Dax Shepard?

  And then, um.

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  You can't go and not get merch.

• 1:37:57Dax Shepard?

  So I got, I got misled. It said, doors open 5:30, show starts at seven.

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:03Dax Shepard?

  And that doesn't mean Sabrina starts at seven.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:38:06Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so we sit in the seats, we're pretty early, place is pretty empty, just us. And then I think, she doesn't even ask. I go, should we go hop in that merch line? And she's like, yeah. I think she may even surprise I'm willing to.

• 1:38:22Dax Shepard?

  So we went and guess what? Couple of things about the merch lines. They're not bad.

• 1:38:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, they move.

• 1:38:28Dax Shepard?

  Lot of people watching and they move. They go quicker than you think they're gonna go. And it wasn't bad at all. And we took turns, each of us going to the bathroom and keeping our place in line. It all worked out. And I'm just remembering I got merch.

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  Okay, good.

• 1:38:42Dax Shepard?

  I got a shirt, I should have worn it. I'll wear it in the future.

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  Okay, wear it. Did you get a sweatshirt or a t-shirt?

• 1:38:48Dax Shepard?

  T-shirt, t-shirt.

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  Cute.

• 1:38:49Dax Shepard?

  I have so many sweatshirts.

• 1:38:51Speaker 01

  Sure, but you could always use more.

• 1:38:52Dax Shepard?

  Uh, I really, at this point, I can't. Like I was looking, I hang mine on hooks. I was like, we gotta, just this morning.

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  You hang yours on hooks?

• 1:39:00Dax Shepard?

  We got.

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:02Dax Shepard?

  The summer on.

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  I'm disappointed.

• 1:39:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we got cute merch, we got snacks, we dance.

• 1:39:11Dax Shepard?

  We got a round of hot dogs. Hers had macaroni and cheese on the hot dog.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  Oh dang.

• 1:39:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, go Staples.

• 1:39:17Speaker 01

  Go Krypta.

• 1:39:18Dax Shepard?

  Boo. And, uh, and then we got some chicken tenders because we were there for 15 hours. Cause she didn't start till nine.

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  Right, but I'm glad you got in the line. I'm surprised, like, you have to get in that line so quick because it goes, it sells out.

• 1:39:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, while we were starting to watch, that's the anxiety being in the line as you're watching them like remove the tote bag from them.

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:39:39Dax Shepard?

  And then you're like, well, hold on, there's six more stations. So like someone really wanted that tote bag, do they have to go get in that other line?

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  And then that will also sell out. It's a bracket.

• 1:39:48Dax Shepard?

  Tote was popular, apparently. Or they didn't make a lot. My, that's my guess. They didn't think they were gonna sell as many as they did.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  Okay. Speaking of our merch, people really bought stuff and we're so excited for everybody to match us. And we're so happy you guys like it.

• 1:40:04Dax Shepard?

  I'm excited for the people to receive it and feel the quality.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  Feel the quality.

• 1:40:09Dax Shepard?

  Feel, rub it all over your body and then cover your body with it.

• 1:40:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, do. And, um, you will have it by the holidays.

• 1:40:18Dax Shepard?

  Yes, that's so good. Um.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  We don't have any tote bags.

• 1:40:21Dax Shepard?

  We don't have tote bags, so don't worry, they won't sell out.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:24Dax Shepard?

  Um, okay, now, the show.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:27Dax Shepard?

  Was spectacular.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:40:29Dax Shepard?

  I've now, I guess, between last year and this year, I saw Taylor and then I saw Sabrina.

• 1:40:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:35Dax Shepard?

  And they're much different performers, obviously.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:38Dax Shepard?

  But I was kinda like really fascinated with what I think Lane she has staked out.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:40:46Dax Shepard?

  Have you ever seen her live?

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:40:47Dax Shepard?

  No. Well, it's great. The set's incredible. There's all kinds of different dancers. It's wonderful. Um, and then she often is like in between songs and she can just sit and kinda stare at the camera.

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:40:59Dax Shepard?

  And stare, like, look around and do all this stuff. And I was like. Wow, this woman's, she's so confident.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:07Dax Shepard?

  Right? Like, she's so calm and confident.

• 1:41:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's cheeky. That's her style.

• 1:41:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and just so crazy confident.

• 1:41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, was so it was being filmed, so maybe it's also gonna be a movie too. They're all making these movies.

• 1:41:20Dax Shepard?

  Be silly not to. They already have the cameras going to put it on the big, huge screen.

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:25Dax Shepard?

  But anyways, it's so it didn't start till nine, right before she went on, Delte was on my shoulder, falling asleep.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:31Dax Shepard?

  That's hard for these little ones at these concerts. They're a long time.

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  It's tiring.

• 1:41:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and we'd already been there for three and a half hours, I think, at that point when the show started.

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:39Dax Shepard?

  But boy, she sprang right awake.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:41:41Dax Shepard?

  Danced around.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  How long was the set, like Sabrina?

• 1:41:45Dax Shepard?

  About two hours-ish. Oh, we had a really tricky call to make. We were given some lanyards. After we were already in our seat, a nice gentleman, Max, came and gave us some lanyards so that we could go to the friends and family area after the show. And I was like, oh, wow. We might, she might come into there.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:42:07Dax Shepard?

  We might meet her.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:09Dax Shepard?

  And mind you, it's already like, it's late. And I say to Delte, I'm like, okay, so we have these passes, um, you know, may, I don't know, don't get your expectations too high, but maybe we'll, we'll actually meet her. And you wanna go? And she's like, oh, my God, yeah, right? So we go in there and we're in there for a while, 20 minutes. And I'm kinda looking around like, there's a lot of people for her to wander into here.

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:42:30Dax Shepard?

  There were some snacks. We had more snacks.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:42:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think I this time I had cheese sticks. I don't know, chicken tenders, a hot dog, and there was marinara. Yeah, yeah, that whole spread.

• 1:42:39Speaker 01

  You mean mozzarella sticks?

• 1:42:40Dax Shepard?

  What'd I say?

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  Cheese stick.

• 1:42:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, they were mozzarella bran cheese.

• 1:42:44Speaker 01

  Okay, because to me, a cheese, cheese stick is a string cheese.

• 1:42:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  And a, a mozzarella stick is a breaded.

• 1:42:52Dax Shepard?

  Mozzarella stick.

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  Breaded cheese with a marinara.

• 1:42:56Dax Shepard?

  That's exactly what it was.

• 1:42:57Speaker 01

  Yum, I love mozzarella sticks.

• 1:42:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, well, you would have loved these. They were tiny. They were like cocktail wiener size.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:43:04Dax Shepard?

  So you kinda pop them like.

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you pop them.

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  Like an app.

• 1:43:08Dax Shepard?

  So we were in there for about 20, and I just started thinking.

• 1:43:13Dax Shepard?

  There's no chance in hell she's coming into this room.

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:43:16Dax Shepard?

  You know, so I said to Delta, I don't, you know, I don't think this is her. There's too many people in here for her to come through. And she's like, yeah, I was pretty proud of her. She, she, she seemed to be, accept that outcome.

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:43:30Dax Shepard?

  If I were her, I might've been fighting for like, you know.

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  Please, let's just stay and wait and see.

• 1:43:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like when I was seeing Billy Idol, her age, the notion that Billy Idol might've come out, I probably would've stuck around to the last person left, just in case.

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, same.

• 1:43:44Dax Shepard?

  Uh, but yeah, we did not get home till midnight.

• 1:43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:48Dax Shepard?

  On a school night.

• 1:43:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Who did she arrest? Isn't she arresting people at these concerts?

• 1:43:54Dax Shepard?

  She put some cuffs on somebody for being too hot. We couldn't see from our side of the stage. They were on the opposite side of the stage. I saw brown hair.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  Oh, cool.

• 1:44:02Dax Shepard?

  That's good. They didn't give it to a blonde.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  She arrested, I think she arrested Anne Hathaway once.

• 1:44:06Dax Shepard?

  She did.

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:08Speaker 02

  It was Dakota and Ellie Fanning.

• 1:44:10Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:44:11Dax Shepard?

  That's who she arrested on Sunday?

• 1:44:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, the 16th, right?

• 1:44:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, she arrests famous people.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why I said Anne Hathaway. Dakota and Elle?

• 1:44:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:21Speaker 01

  They're blonde.

• 1:44:21Dax Shepard?

  Now you got your, are they both blonde?

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:44:24Dax Shepard?

  Maybe she arrested a brunette, too.

• 1:44:29Dax Shepard?

  I'm surprised I didn't see them on the, they didn't pop them on the big screen.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  I am surprised about that. Maybe you were in the potty.

• 1:44:35Dax Shepard?

  No, I did not go to the potty during the show.

• 1:44:37Speaker 01

  Oh, well, it seems like you missed a lot because it was not brown hair. Unless one of them has dyed their hair.

• 1:44:44Dax Shepard?

  For a roll.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  For a roll. Oh, blonde. Both very blonde.

• 1:44:49Dax Shepard?

  So that's who they, uh, okay, we're on the very opposite side of that.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:53Dax Shepard?

  Can you, Rob, can you, um, rotate the camera around so you can see Delta?

• 1:44:58Speaker 02

  That looks like a Jumbotron, though.

• 1:45:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it does appear that they're on the Jumbotron. I guess we were looking at stage. Anyways, who cares? Point is, we had a riot. We had a riot.

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:11Speaker 01

  Fun times. Fun times galore.

• 1:45:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:16Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 1:45:16Dax Shepard?

  Should we do some facts?

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  Sure. Okay.

• 1:45:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  Facts.

• 1:45:24Dax Shepard?

  I'm glad that's not one of our routines where we say it in sync. Because people. Three, two, one.

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  Facts. Maybe people would like it because then they could do it too.

• 1:45:35Dax Shepard?

  I don't, I think they would like it three times.

• 1:45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:38Dax Shepard?

  But like on time 100, I'm like, oh my God, do you guys stop doing that? Let's do it one more time. Three, two, one.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  Facts.

• 1:45:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's already repugnant.

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  I think we should get to do it three times a year.

• 1:45:52Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so that was one?

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  No, it was start next year.

• 1:45:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:45:55Speaker 01

  Okay, now, um, one thing about Train Dreams, we did talk about it for a second, but it's Callie's movie. Callie's.

• 1:46:04Dax Shepard?

  She directed it, she wrote it.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:46:07Dax Shepard?

  Produced it.

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  Yes, no, she didn't, but she has been talking about this movie all year and is on the team at Netflix, the marketing team for this movie. And she had told me once the tat, like a tagline, then I couldn't remember and I couldn't find it. But it's, I texted her, you don't have to do big things to live a big life.

• 1:46:27Dax Shepard?

  Hmm, that's nice.

• 1:46:29Speaker 01

  And I thought that was lovely. There's also one that's internal, so I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say it.

• 1:46:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  So I'm not saying.

• 1:46:37Dax Shepard?

  Great.

• 1:46:39Dax Shepard?

  Thanks for the tease.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, uh, anyway, so see the movie.

• 1:46:45Dax Shepard?

  See it.

• 1:46:46Speaker 01

  See the movie now.

• 1:46:47Dax Shepard?

  Three, two, one.

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  Facts. I almost forgot what it was.

• 1:46:51Dax Shepard?

  You did, you forgot your line, it's one word.

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  Those are the hardest ones to remember.

• 1:46:56Dax Shepard?

  We always talk about that. Yeah, I think it came up in this episode.

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  I think it did.

• 1:46:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  Okay, there really aren't many at all.

• 1:47:02Dax Shepard?

  Great.

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  Other than Callie's tagline.

• 1:47:05Dax Shepard?

  Again, Callie wrote, directed.

• 1:47:07Speaker 01

  Okay, what fell?

• 1:47:08Dax Shepard?

  Well, just my amber mug isn't keeping it warm and I wondered, is that thing even plugged in? Is what I wondered.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  Oh shit.

• 1:47:15Dax Shepard?

  And then I explored because I have impulse control issues because I might be ADHD, but I don't know.

• 1:47:20Speaker 01

  I, God, I just had this conversation with someone and we've had it before and I just.

• 1:47:24Dax Shepard?

  Hate when people self diagnose.

• 1:47:25Speaker 01

  I hate it.

• 1:47:25Dax Shepard?

  But can I tell you my, like, you gotta honor this, which is Gabor Maté said to me, have you ever been diagnosed?

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 1:47:33Dax Shepard?

  There was a clue.

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  It doesn't mean you're diagnosed, though. He probably just was like, maybe you have it, but that doesn't mean you do.

• 1:47:39Dax Shepard?

  I think he was like, oh, this motherfucker is A D. Yeah, I don't need the diet. Well, that's fine if I don't. What I'll say is when I look at the symptoms of it, it's hard to deny that I have many of those symptoms.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, but to me, the diagnosis is when it's problematic. Like, just having qualities. Like, I just had this fight with somebody. Not fight, conversation.

• 1:48:02Dax Shepard?

  Dust up.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  No, it really wasn't. But I was just like, they told me that someone we knew mutually was diagnosed as on the spectrum.

• 1:48:12Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  And I was like, okay, or maybe they weren't diagnosed, but like, said they were on the spectrum. I don't know. But I was like, I know this person. They're not, they're not like getting in the way of anything they're trying to accomplish.

• 1:48:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:27Speaker 01

  And I do feel that it's not fair to people who are definitively on the spectrum to say like, I'm quirky, so I'm on the spectrum.

• 1:48:41Dax Shepard?

  I understand that. I understand that it feels disrespectful to people that have a pathological version that is a disorder that is standing in the way of their life.

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like.

• 1:48:53Dax Shepard?

  But what I would say is, you're evaluating someone very late into it. So I did have, I was disruptive in the classroom. I was getting thrown up. I had impulse control issues. I, there were tons of times I got terrible fucking great, you're like, I had downside. I was just reading this one aspect of it is like, what happens in a debate for someone with ADHD is immediately amygdala is engaged right out of the gates. And then on top of that, they have done. They've measured the dopamine levels of ADHD people when they're engaged in a debate and you're getting a ton of dopamine and serotonin. So it is fueling on your,

• 1:49:36Dax Shepard?

  you get pleasure out of fighting, right? Like they've observed this in their, in the brain. And I'm like, well, you know, yeah, that definitely described me when I was younger. And over years, in the same way, like I don't not have dyslexia now that I can read just fine. It's like I had it. It was really problematic. I eventually gathered tools and now I'm fine with it. I think that could also be the case, right? Like I could have had a lot of challenges with ADHD that we didn't know they were, those were that, but over time I learned to work with them.

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  I just, but it could also just be your personality.

• 1:50:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:15Speaker 01

  And trauma that causes this.

• 1:50:17Dax Shepard?

  It's all very arbitrary.

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:20Dax Shepard?

  It's a spectrum. You can have ADHD in an 11 and you can have it at a one.

• 1:50:24Speaker 01

  But then to me, I'm like, then it's just, we all have it. And then where are you on this?

• 1:50:28Dax Shepard?

  But I don't think that's fair.

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:50:31Dax Shepard?

  Even if you want to call it personality types, let's call it personality types.

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:34Dax Shepard?

  Okay. So there's a personality type, which is like shy and not impulse control and not enjoying debate and fights and not an overinflated sense of injustice and not fidgety, trying to do nine things at once and you can't brush your teeth. Like, fine. So I have that personality type. It doesn't need to be a disorder, but I do have a bucket of overlapping symptoms.

• 1:50:54Speaker 01

  Sure. We have overlapping symptoms with so many things and that creates a personality. And I think some, you know, it's like what you, you used to say a lot about like calling people racist. He's like, you're like, we can't call this person racist when there's a KKK. Exactly. And I, I, you know.

• 1:51:14Dax Shepard?

  You're having that issue with it?

• 1:51:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:15Dax Shepard?

  I think, and this isn't your issue. I think a lot of people's issue with it is what they think is, I'm asking for sympathy or compassion and I'm not. Cause they're like, you don't deserve sympathy. That person can't even go to work.

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:29Dax Shepard?

  But I'm not saying it because I want sympathy. I'm saying, no, but I. Know all these characteristics about it. I'm certainly checking yes on a lot of those boxes. It's not a detriment to me right now. It's it's it's now that, you know, there are things that I struggle with. I think harder than other people struggle with.

• 1:51:49Speaker 01

  Everyone has a things they struggle with that other people don't like that. But I don't think that's I don't think those are disorders. I think those are personalities that like we all have strengths and we all have weaknesses. And like, you know, I I and it is because it's like dyslexia. Dyslexia you have you've tested into.

• 1:52:14Dax Shepard?

  Twice.

• 1:52:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you see, you see letters mixed up.

• 1:52:19Dax Shepard?

  I don't even see them. I don't even know what it is.

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  So the point is you have that.

• 1:52:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  I think if someone is like, I have dyslexia, like it's hard for me to read.

• 1:52:30Dax Shepard?

  So I hear this a ton. I can't tell you how many people tell me they have dyslexia. It happens. It happens a few times a week. I personally don't go like, well, have you been evaluated? Like, who evaluated you? Did you go to school? Was it in college? I don't care.

• 1:52:48Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:52:48Dax Shepard?

  What they're telling me is it's hard for them to read.

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's fine. But then if everyone has dyslexia, then it does make it harder for people who have dyslexia to get seen as really having it, to get the extra time on the test to do. Like, if everyone just has it.

• 1:53:04Dax Shepard?

  But I don't think it does because you you can't just say I have dyslexia to get extra time on your test. You do have to do what I did at UCLA, which is like go through weeks of testing.

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:13Dax Shepard?

  So I don't think anyone with dyslexia is being penalized that everyone's using it kind of colloquially. This is the thing with people with OCD. They're really pissed that people with OCDP are claiming to have. That's fine, and they have a right to, and I'm not mad at them for that. I, as someone with dyslexia, I don't care that people are saying they're dyslexic.

• 1:53:29Speaker 01

  Right, that's fine. I'm just saying I don't want it to affect people who, you know, are nonverbal autistic.

• 1:53:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:39Speaker 01

  Because, you know, someone has like a quirk and is like, I'm neurodivergent too. I'm like, well, there's just such.

• 1:53:49Dax Shepard?

  Here's where I totally agree with you. All of this pretends that there's this large majority of our population that is quote, "normal."

• 1:53:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:53:58Dax Shepard?

  And that you are neuro atypical or neurodivergent from this group. So what I agree, what I think is true is that this group doesn't exist.

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, this group is all of us.

• 1:54:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:10Speaker 01

  We all have all kinds of things.

• 1:54:13Dax Shepard?

  That part I agree with you on. But the irritation over people doing it, I don't care. It's like a semantic thing and maybe they are and maybe they aren't. What's important to me, I think, unless they're looking for sympathy.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:29Dax Shepard?

  Which I have no tolerance for.

• 1:54:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:30Dax Shepard?

  As you know. But if they're just trying to explain themselves to me, and there's now some new words available that kind of seem to condense the thing they're trying to relay about themselves to me, that's okay.

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  I guess. I mean, it's one thing to me if they're using the symptoms to describe it, but to say like, "I have this," is, is like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Anyway.

• 1:54:54Dax Shepard?

  Anywho.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  Um, how big were Andre the Giant's hands?

• 1:54:57Dax Shepard?

  This is a big thing too with people like gluten free. They get so, they're like, do you have celiac? Like, were you tested for celiac?

• 1:55:04Speaker 01

  Well, but that, but, okay, again, like, Callie has it.

• 1:55:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:10Speaker 01

  She has celiac.

• 1:55:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:11Speaker 01

  So when she tells the person at the server.

• 1:55:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  She says, "Is it gluten free?" And they're like, "Yeah." She's like, "Okay, but she has to say, but I have celiac. So can you please really double check and make sure?" And then they're like, "Oh, yeah, I'll check."

• 1:55:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  So it, it is a little bit of a thing that everyone's like, "I'm gluten free."

• 1:55:30Dax Shepard?

  This is all really funny, right? Cause like, I'm on the other side and it drives me insane. Cause I ask, "Do you have gluten free bread?" And they go, "Do you have an allergy?"

• 1:55:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, they need to know.

• 1:55:40Dax Shepard?

  And they do need to know. It just gets so serious right away. Like, they're not gonna sell me something. Right, like they're good now they're afraid they're gonna get sued.

• 1:55:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:51Dax Shepard?

  And I'll be like, no, yeah. So I'm like, no, no, I don't have an allergy. Are you sure? Like, no, no, I just now I was like, well, I have one of my is I'm sorry, I got arthritis that if it there is a bunch of gluten, my joints might hurt. I'm not going to go into anaphylactic shock and I won't get Crohn's over it. So no, it's not that big of a deal.

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:56:08Dax Shepard?

  Relative to to Cali.

• 1:56:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you. Yeah, yeah. But I understand why they have to be careful, probably because so many people just are like, I'm gluten free.

• 1:56:19Dax Shepard?

  People sue a lot. They said it was gluten free and they got sick and then they.

• 1:56:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it can be really dangerous for some people and others are like, my tummy hurts.

• 1:56:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:27Speaker 01

  It's like, that's not the same.

• 1:56:30Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  So I do think checking is good. And yeah, and she we always like, just so you know, it's an allergy.

• 1:56:36Dax Shepard?

  It's the real.

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  And then they always say like, let me double check.

• 1:56:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  So anyway, it's just life's crazy.

• 1:56:44Dax Shepard?

  I think it's very common, though. I think like what you and I are talking about, everyone talks about.

• 1:56:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:56:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think people.

• 1:56:49Speaker 01

  I think they're all gonna talk about it now that we talked about it.

• 1:56:55Speaker 01

  Okay, how big were under the giant's hands?

• 1:56:57Dax Shepard?

  Hold on, hold on, hold on. I just like, it's good to remember or constantly on the same side of arguments with just simply a little bit different ingredients, right?

• 1:57:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:57:10Dax Shepard?

  So like, the way you're up, you get annoyed by that. I have been annoyed with you when you've said, I have cancer or whatever. You know, the things you've announced you have medically. And I'm like, you haven't gone to the doctor and been diagnosed, right? And I get really upset at you. I want you to like, don't think that you have that.

• 1:57:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:31Dax Shepard?

  Until you've gone and they've told you. So I'm acknowledging I've been on the opposite side of this argument. I'm just trying to acknowledge that.

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  But I'm joking. If I have. So far, if I've said I have cancer, which by the way, I don't think I have, because that actually would scare me to say.

• 1:57:46Dax Shepard?

  You would jinx you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  I don't think I do that.

• 1:57:49Dax Shepard?

  But you have thought you had a lot of different things over there.

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  I thought I've had things, but I'm not serious if I'm like, I have a tumor. Like, I know, if I really thought I did, I would of course go get it checked out.

• 1:58:02Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  So that's me being like hyperbolic and like, it's a funny thing. But apparently it's not.

• 1:58:09Dax Shepard?

  No, you remember that I've been upset with you saying you have things, right?

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  I know, but yeah, you do sometimes because I'm like, oh, my like back hurts and it does hurt.

• 1:58:17Dax Shepard?

  I think I have blank.

• 1:58:19Speaker 01

  Or be like, I, it's either period or I have like a kidney thing.

• 1:58:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:25Speaker 01

  And then, yeah, you're like, you need to get it looked at and I'm, I'm already like, I know.

• 1:58:29Dax Shepard?

  I'm just trying to own that I've been on your side of this argument we just had, this chat we just had.

• 1:58:34Speaker 01

  I know, but I, I think it's a little different because I'm not claiming to have a pathology. What's funny is, and I do think this is interesting, me and you did feel the same way about ADHD at one point. You used to think this.

• 1:58:47Dax Shepard?

  I still think that ADHD has taken over social media and now we all think we have it.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  And you even said there was a specific person that said they had it and you were like so annoyed by it.

• 1:58:59Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:59:00Speaker 01

  And as I was too.

• 1:59:01Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  And now you think you have it and you're doing the same thing this person did.

• 1:59:06Dax Shepard?

  I am.

• 1:59:06Speaker 01

  So I think that's funny.

• 1:59:07Dax Shepard?

  I am, yeah. And I don't think anyone needs to feel bad for me or I have a handicap.

• 1:59:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:59:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I just think I have a ton of the things on the list.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  Sure. It's a great personality.

• 1:59:18Dax Shepard?

  But again, we're making an arbitrary distinction between a personality and a disorder.

• 1:59:21Speaker 01

  And a pathology, yeah, that's my whole point.

• 1:59:24Dax Shepard?

  But again, we're still just talking about how someone is.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  We are, but there's medication and stuff.

• 1:59:31Dax Shepard?

  There's some line, we go, okay, so you're, you're getting a C. Like there is, right, they're drawing a line and they're gonna decide on this side of the line is a pathology, on this side it's not.

• 1:59:43Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:59:43Dax Shepard?

  And that's just decided by people.

• 1:59:45Speaker 01

  Doctors should be, yeah.

• 1:59:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but it's not a test.

• 1:59:49Speaker 01

  No, it's like depression.

• 1:59:51Dax Shepard?

  You're not discovering in your DNA, here's the loci for this condition. It's still a diagnoses that is arbitrary in nature.

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  I just think it should be. You should be diagnosed if it requires change, like medicine, you know, whatever. I mean, I guess this is sort of back to that awesome guest we had on, who was talking about over diagnosis.

• 2:00:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, from England. Yeah, she was great.

• 2:00:20Speaker 01

  Um, how big were Andre the Giant's hands? This is the third time I've said it.

• 2:00:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:00:27Speaker 01

  Sixteen inches long, from wrist to fingertip.

• 2:00:30Dax Shepard?

  From wrist to fingertip. Boy, I wish I had a tape measure right now.

• 2:00:34Speaker 01

  I mean, imagine a full ruler.

• 2:00:37Dax Shepard?

  Well, how about this? My shoes is 12 inches.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's like a ruler.

• 2:00:42Dax Shepard?

  So we're going to here. First of all, what does that mean? Hi, Monica.

• 2:00:46Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:00:48Dax Shepard?

  Now we're gonna go four inches past that.

• 2:00:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:51Dax Shepard?

  Holy smokes.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  Enormous. This immense size allowed him to palm a basketball with ease and made him comparable in size to a silverback gorilla. Okay, the only other fact is that we talk about AI and he wanted to see a dog giving a lecture. Like, he asked.

• 2:01:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh, right. He had designed.

• 2:01:10Speaker 01

  He designed that. And when I was at Charlie's house for the Dodgers game, he has an app on his phone. I guess it's in like development. And he took, like, we put it in front of my face and I just turned right and left. And then I just said three numbers. That was it.

• 2:01:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:33Speaker 01

  And then he said, have Monica running on a beach and yelling at a dog.

• 2:01:39Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  And it's so good.

• 2:01:43Dax Shepard?

  It is?

• 2:01:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:01:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my godness.

• 2:01:46Speaker 01

  And then he was doing a lot of those, like me complaining at a restaurant. And I was like, you could really take me out.

• 2:01:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:54Speaker 01

  Maybe it'll swing in the other way because if you can't trust. If that's real.

• 2:01:59Dax Shepard?

  Then it's just like.

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  Then nothing matters.

• 2:02:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, no holds barred.

• 2:02:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:03Dax Shepard?

  You can always just go, I was AI.

• 2:02:05Speaker 01

  I was AI.

• 2:02:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  Wasn't me?

• 2:02:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:08Speaker 01

  Um.

• 2:02:08Dax Shepard?

  AI crashed my car drunk driving. I had nothing to do with that.

• 2:02:11Speaker 01

  It wasn't me. It was a hologram. They're that good. Um, all right, that's it.

• 2:02:17Dax Shepard?

  Love you.