487: How Being a “New Guy” Can Help You in Life. W Bobby Holland

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Bobby Holland joins the pod to discuss what we can all learn from the guidelines of being a "New Guy" in the SEAL Teams. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 487 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. So I got asked a question the other day. What can I do to be a good new guy in a platoon? And, and this is a pretty common question because when you show up at a SEAL team, you, you want to be a good guy. But as I thought about answering that question, being a good new guy in a SEAL platoon is actually the same as being a good human being, right? And listen, being a new, good new guy in a SEAL platoon, there's some things, right? You gotta have weapons proficiency, you know, you want to be a good shot.

• 0:42Jocko Willink?

  You gotta have tactical knowledge, you gotta, you gotta learn how to utilize terrain. You gotta know your demo, like there's some skills that you need. But beyond those skills of the job, to be a good SEAL, to be a good frogman, you gotta have more than just the skills. And so as I thought about the things that I was told when I was a new guy, because you're going to get guidance. What's that, what's that thing they say now? Un, unrequested guidance? Unsolicited. Unsolicited advice, you're going to get some of that. But I'll tell you what, some of that stuff that I got told and that young new guys get told,

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  and that then I told and other older guys told the new guys, it's stuff that is, can be very powerful if you take it to heart and you carry it through. And some of those things carry through my entire life. And so I wanted, as I started thinking about some of those things, I wanted to do a little podcast about things that land on you as a new guy that you can carry through your whole career. And so I actually reached out to Bobby Holland, Lead Bob, who was retired, he's a retired SEAL, he's a member of the E5 Mafia and Task Unit Bruiser, went on to be a platoon LPO, a platoon chief, eventually became a warrant officer, retired after 21 years in the teams. He was on podcast 416.

• 2:10Jocko Willink?

  Originally, and if you want to hear his backstory, then go listen to Podcast 416. He's now the founder and the CEO of Hooley Golf, making what badass apparel for badass people.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 2:24Jocko Willink?

  Hooley Golf.com. Yeah, that's what that's what lead Bob is doing now. But like me, he once was a new guy and then he raised new guys. And so Bob, we're going to talk about some of that, then come back.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Thank you for having me back and I look forward to have this kind of conversation, man. It's a, you know, something, especially with where I'm at now, it's very much in my headspace because I'm basically a new guy all over again.

• 2:47Jocko Willink?

  Well, how long ago did you, did you retire?

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Uh, summer of 21. It's been a couple of years.

• 2:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And it really is the new guy, some of the new guy mantras that if you keep those in your head, it will make everything better. It really will.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  They're fundamentals that last a lifetime. Yeah. And you sometimes don't realize until you're thrust back right into that mode.

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So I mean, obviously look, there's principles of combat leadership that we talk about all the time. Cover moves, simple, prioritize, execute decentralized command. The things that you've heard me say a million times, discipline equals freedom, the, the attitude of extreme ownership. Those are clearly things that are fundamental to everything that I've done. And those are the things that I've passed on, but there's like some brass tacks things that you hear when you're a new guy that stick with you now. I gotta tell you the story about me being a new guy.

• 3:44Jocko Willink?

  I was with a couple of other new guys. We were checking into SEAL Team One and we had to go see the Master Chief. And we, we walked into the Master Chief's office and the Command Master Chief. And we were, we were actually standing at attention outside of his office and he called us and he's like, kid in here. And so we go in and we're standing at attention in front of his desk.

• 4:08Jocko Willink?

  And he points at each one of us one at a time and he goes, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. And I was like, okay.

• 4:15Jocko Willink?

  And he said, everyone here has made it through training. No one gives a shit that you made it. It doesn't mean shit. You have to earn your training here and you have to earn your reputation. Get the fuck out of here. And we were like, okay. So

• 4:28Jocko Willink?

  that's, that's my first day at SEAL Team One from the Command Master Chief. And what a way to take, look, when you're coming out of BUDs, you know, you've been told that this is the most difficult training in the US military and you made it. And they put a big American flag up behind you and you, you know, you, we didn't get our tridents, but you graduated BUDs, man. So you're feeling good. And you might be feeling a little bit cocky. Well, Master Chief took that right out of us. So we had that happen. And then a couple of days later, we had all the new guys that had now checked in. Maybe it was a few weeks later, but you know, guys were on leave or whatever. And I think, do we go to jump school? Yeah, we had already, so we went to jump school.

• 5:12Jocko Willink?

  So we had gone to jump school in Fort Benning, Georgia, and then traveled back across the country. Guys are showing up in ones, twos and threes or whatever. So finally we get all the new guys, we all get assembled and we get our various indoctrination briefs from whoever, but the Master Chief comes in again and he, he says, keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open. Don't be late, don't forget any gear. And he left. That's, that's all he said. Keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open. Don't be late, don't forget any gear. So, cool. Again, his first statement, keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open. What a, it's so, it's like, you know, you hear that all the time, right? Keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open. What he's saying is be humble and listen.

• 5:58Jocko Willink?

  And to this day, listen, listen, listen, listen is so important. And you think when you're in a leadership position, that's the time you run your mouth? Nope. It's actually time you listen more.

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  So keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open, be humble. The next one, don't be late. Now,

• 6:18Jocko Willink?

  I was always very paranoid about being late. I would not be late. I would rather be five hours early than 30 seconds late for something. The only waiver I gave myself on that was when I was going to college. I was going to college with another team guy at the University of San Diego. And the parking was so difficult to get, but you might get lucky and get a parking spot, or you'd have to get there two hours early. And so we had, we like shook hands and made a deal because he was a squared away guy too. And we were like, okay, listen, I'll be here around 10. It might be 1008, it might be 1004. And he's like, I get it. So occasionally you give a waiver like that, but I think if you're late, it's just

• 7:00Jocko Willink?

  such a reflection of, kind of of everything. You know what I mean?

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of a betrayal to the team. You know, just signals that you

• 7:11Jocko Willink?

  Straight up betrayal. Bobby's going hot, dude. Betrayal.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Aren't prioritizing your life accordingly.

• 7:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. If you can't show up on time, like, can we count on you? That's, that's a problem.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 7:23Jocko Willink?

  You, you know, I, I got that thing where I say, if you can't control your temper, right? How can you control anything? Well, if you can't show up on time, how can you execute a, a mission? Well, there was traffic. Well, didn't you plan for that, bro? We all had traffic. Or whatever the case may be. It's kind of a, it's kind of a sign of bad judgment. It's kind of a sign of, um, a lack of understanding of the way the world works.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, or it just may signal that you don't give a shit. And as a new guy, you're not, that's not really a good signal you want to put out to the team.

• 7:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, remember Tony used to say, everything takes a half an hour?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  I know. And I, I was thinking this morning, we both showed up 15 minutes early. So I think, you know, uh, Tony is the 30 minute standard and everyone else, probably 15 minutes.

• 8:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Unless it's something really, really important. Like you said, I mean, there's, there's certain things that you just can't be laid on that you can wait around two hours. Um, yeah.

• 8:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And there's, there's also something in the Navy, which is pretty important. It's missing movement.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 8:22Jocko Willink?

  Which is like a ship leaves and you're not on it. And if that happens, bro, you're in big trouble.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Maybe 30 minutes early for that.

• 8:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You want to be 30 minutes early for, you don't want to miss movement, um, at all. So that's a really important. And then the third thing was don't forget any gear, which again, um,

• 8:41Jocko Willink?

  If you're forgetting gear, it's kind of a reflection of just sort of you, right? Like you had, you forgot this thing. The other thing I think is important about that is you can't go back in time and get that thing. Like when you don't have something, it's, it's too late. And what, missing one piece of gear is, can really disrupt an operation, depending on what's missing. I had, actually Giff, remember Giff was on the podcast?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:07Jocko Willink?

  Well, he, we were both new guys together. We were both radio men and one time he forgot something. He forgot, I forget if he forgot a antenna or an antenna base, or something that was very critical to making communications. And he came to me afterwards and Giff, forgive me for blasting you right now, but he came, he, the credit to him was, he came to me and was like, bro, I forgot this thing. And, and I don't remember, maybe he had a secondary and he was like, hey, I forgot one, but thank God I had a secondary. Or maybe he just didn't make comms, but either way it was like, cause Giff was squared away.

• 9:44Jocko Willink?

  For, so for him to forget something, it made me even more hyper paranoid about making sure I had my gear.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  So, you know, a lot of people see the sexy stuff that we do and, you know, highly choreographed, whatever. A lot of people don't see the behind the scenes and the very simple things we do that seem like redundant and kind of ridiculous. But one of the things Tony and I used to do, so on that Ramadi deployment, every single time before we went out on an op, every single op, we went out, we looked at each other and we went helmet, nods, primary, secondary. We went through our whole loadout there. Um, cause yeah, you can't be stepping out the door, missing something critical. Uh, whether that's for, you know, for the team effort or for you to fight as an individual.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Uh, so it seems really, really basic, but yeah, you gotta, gotta make sure you have all your stuff and, you know, two is one, one is none. Uh, have some redundancy there, you know, I'm not, I'm not ruling out on an op with one battery. That's in my nods.

• 10:49Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  You know, or laser or whatever.

• 10:52Jocko Willink?

  And one thing that I did that was cool is I would have like all my gear staged on a cot. So when the cot was empty, I had my gear, that was sort of like the preliminary check. Now, actually, this happened on my deployment, my first deployment to Iraq. I was out on this op and I've, I, we were rushed to leave. I think it was a T S T, whatever excuse you want to throw at it. But as we're out there, I'm like, oh, all of a sudden I felt my back pocket. So on, on your cami pants, the old cami pants, there was a back pocket that had a button on it. So you could like seal the thing and that's where I would keep my blood chit.

• 11:34Jocko Willink?

  And like, I had like $200 cash in there and I had my military ID, had like one of those little plastic see-through things. And I'm out there and I'm like, dude, I don't have that with me right now. And I was so pissed at myself and I was like, how did I do this? And it was like, mind boggling to me. And luckily, you know, that's stuff that you only need in a really extreme situation. Luckily, we came back. But what had happened was my back pocket had like folded up when I put my pants on and it was actually just tucked up under my waist. So I had it. But it was one of those things where I got away with, it gave me the guilty feeling that I had screwed up and I became even more paranoid. So, yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  I used to have nightmares, like, like no shit. I remember being a platoon chief because the last thing you want to be is the, you know, dicked up platoon chief for Guinness stuff. So I would have this recurring dream to where like, I forgot my gun and I'm on a mission. You know, the guys are looking at me and I'm just like, oh.

• 12:30Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's the nightmare. That's the true nightmare. Uh, so that was kind of like, we'll get some more of mine, but those are some of the, those are the first things that I remember when I got to the team was fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. And then keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open. Don't be late. Don't forget any gear. And those things right there clued me in from the whole career to this day. Don't be late. Don't be forget any gear. Keep your mouth shut. Keep your ears open. Those are, those, that is outstanding advice for a new guy in a SEAL platoon and it's outstanding advice for any human being out there. Um, and I still check my gear. I'm still, I'm, I'm a little bit too paranoid. You know what I mean? A little bit too paranoid. Echo, you seem to be nodding enthusiastically at that.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  I know what you mean.

• 13:17Jocko Willink?

  Check. All right. So let's get into some of your, uh, some of your stuff. What do you got?

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Look for work.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  So, uh.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  Good one.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, this originates for folks listening and this is a Kill House term. Um, at least it was when we were coming up. I'm not sure if it still is, but essentially what that means from the team guy parlance is you do your primary scan, secondary scan, and then you're looking around with your eyeballs, looking for work. So you're looking for people that need help. You know, you may have someone who's dealing with an unknown. You're wrestling an unknown. They're dropping something else that you're going to have to draw down on. So you're looking for work. And, uh, you know, obviously that beyond the Kill House, that just applies to all sorts of things in life. You know, business, uh, just everything, just being a part of a team, you know?

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Do your job, look around. If you're committed to the, the team and the mission, um, you know? Put them above yourself. Uh, and yeah, that's, that's honed in. I mean, man, in buds.

• 14:19Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  You know, it's just, it's hammered everything we do, every evolution that we have. There's a, uh, there's, there's a post-op to be done. Um, you know? There's, there's work that needs to be done. We got to clean the boats. We got to clean this. And, uh, it's, it's very easy if you're looking very narrow focused like, oh, I'm good. My gear's good. I'm going to go turn in.

• 14:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 14:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's bad.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, very bad. So.

• 14:44Jocko Willink?

  That's bad. Uh, you know, this, there's a little bit of decentralized command. This is sort of a, this is sort of the new guy version of decentralized command. Like, hey dude, step up and look for work. Oh, you get into a perimeter and you're carrying a 60. Don't wait for someone to tell you what to do. Go find a little bit of high ground or find that little no, find that piece of cover and set up your position. Cause, cause, and the reason this comes out is because when, and it usually is directed at new guys in the beginning because. You're coming out of BUDS, you're in a platoon, you're so used to being told what to do. But that is not a good SEAL. A good SEAL is not a robot that has to be directed on what to do. A good SEAL looks for work and goes and executes on it. That's what a good frog man is gonna do.

• 15:29Jocko Willink?

  And so that's why you'd hear like guys up in the rafters in the KALAS going, you know, hey, look for work, look for work. And you see a guy that's a, he's just standing there with his gun at the low ready, not doing anything. Well, like you said, there's a security threat that needs to be picked up. There's a hallway that needs to be held. There's a, there's a person that needs to get cuffed. There's all these other things that are happening and you have to look for work. And the extreme example is like, you don't want to be the guy with your hands in your pockets as freaking a pallet is being unloaded. Like you don't want to be that guy. You want to be freaking working. And there's always work to be done. So it's a good one.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, you know, in the teams, if you're not that guy, you are going to suffer. Like you're not going to get away with that and uh, that can find its way in many forms. But you know, I was also thinking about the base principle of that. It's, I mean, helping your teammate. And uh, you know, one, one story I didn't get to tell last time I was on, which I think this applies to just being a really solid teammate is uh, a time when Leif helped me out when uh, I was going down. And I mean that like in the literal sense, uh, but you know, looking, looking for your teammates when they're struggling, trying to find ways to help them out. And this

• 16:42Jocko Willink?

  Oh, this heat exhaustion?

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So in this particular case, uh, we were doing, uh, we'd done a series of um, of just, you know, uh, patrols during, uh, coming from the, the BTF house. Um, so it's like multi-day operation. We're just exhausted and smoked. And um, anyways, I was a pig gunner on this one operation and we were like sprinting in the streets and we're doing bounding. You know, when, when you're the rear of the patrol, like you are moving. So I'm, I'm doing these sprints, you know, wearing, you know, 60 pounds of gear and it's 120 out. And uh, you know, these are all my excuses by the way, but um, I'm super smoked. Uh, I have, you know, just excreted every bit of sweat that I have.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  And we get to uh, we end up uh, bouncing into a house, uh, take that down.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Just to, I, I don't even know the purpose honestly, but uh, our TERP, one of the TERPs that we had with was starting to go down and he reached out to me and he's like, hey Baba. I'm not doing so hot and I took some water, threw it over his neck. I'm like, you're good. And then no sooner did that happen that I was like wonk, wonk, wonk. And this is the first time I've ever had like any sort of, you know, heat issue at all through all the training, three platoons of training, BUDS, nothing coming up, you know, summer football. I saw the world like starting to close down and I don't know if I went over the life or if he saw me just in a bad place, but I told him, I was like,

• 18:12Speaker 01

  man, I'm about to go down. Like this is happening. I think we were still a click out from the BTF house and he made the call. He's like, give me your gun. And we swapped guns. So as emasculating as that was, as a frogman, I gave him my, my pig, my, my A W. He carried that damn thing, got us home and I stumbled in, made it in and then kind of like totally collapsed. Once we got there. So, I mean, you know, obviously not, not one of my finer moments, but that's what you got to do to win sometimes is you gotta, gotta help your, help out your teammates, especially when they're really, really struggling. And, uh, yeah, and I think Johnny Kim hooked me up with like,

• 18:56Speaker 01

  you know, eight bags of fluid. After that, as I was in a full body cramp, you know, for 12 hours.

• 19:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So that's a good one. Start, good one to start with. Look for work. What do you got next?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  I, I think maybe you, you kind of hit on this a little bit, but

• 19:16Speaker 01

  be teachable, be eager to learn and, you know, have a notepad in hand. So those all, all go hand to hand there. And, um, you know, it goes into being humble, show up humble, ready to learn and, you know, show up prepared too. It doesn't mean you're showing, you're showing up to training. I'm going to get everything I need there. It means doing, doing some of the work, doing the homework prior. That may mean, uh, you know, so one thing as it applies to new guys is, uh, you know, particularly when I was in a leadership position, uh, LPO in chief later, is we did a lot of pre-work with our new guys before starting unit level training. Right? So rather than, um, you know, take these guys fresh out of S U T.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Straight to the kill house and, and let them, you know, drink through a fire hose like what I did going through training is let's go through the basics. Let's talk through in a, you know, um, much calmer environment, uh, you know, learning environment when we can reach them, get them acclimated.

• 20:17Jocko Willink?

  People don't learn well when they're freaking totally freaked out.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and that's part of it. I mean, a lot of our training, the merit is, uh, you know, stressing us out, the pressure and, and, uh, working under the pressure. But in terms of learning, some of the fundamentals, it's not a great way to start. So, you know, we would build those fundamentals and they would show up ready to learn. And that always propelled us to a higher level of performance, you know, as a unit.

• 20:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a huge one. The notebook thing is like such a trick up, down and across the chain of command. You know, I, I'd have my little, uh, wheel book and if like my boss tells me to do something and I break out my notebook and I'm like, hey, let me just make sure I got this. That is such a good sign. When one of my subordinates goes, hey, you know, hey, boss, what's going on with this? And I pull out my notebook and say, hold on, let me, let me just make sure I understand what you're saying. It is such a good sign. And I'll tell you, I didn't initially do it because it's like, it would make the person think I'm paying attention. Initially did it because when, if I don't, you know, you get so much information during a day, you, people are constantly telling you things.

• 21:23Jocko Willink?

  If you, if I didn't write it down, it would, I'd lose it. So initially it's like, oh, let me pull out my notebook. So I can write down what you're saying to make sure I'm tracking it. And so I think that's not only a good thing to do, but it also, the image it projects is like, hey, I'm paying attention.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 21:41Jocko Willink?

  But the same thing, when I was running trade at, and we would have guys coming through and it was weird. You, you'd never know what you're going to get, right? I might have some guy that have, has a ton of experience. And thinks he's the best person in the world and comes in like, you can't teach me anything and it, and they're, they do terrible. They just would do terrible. As a matter of fact, there's an officer that's portrayed in the movie Warfare. Who is the guy that comes in and the, the officer that was on site kinda got rocked and he was a little bit messed up. And so he goes, he tells the officer that shows up, hey, you got this. And that officer's like, cool. And he just starts running stuff and that guy came through.

• 22:25Jocko Willink?

  After that had happened and after the rest of that whole deployment, that individual officer came through training with me to prepare his platoon. He was then a platoon commander because he was an assistant platoon commander. He became a platoon commander. And that guy was, even though he'd been through all that, done, performed well, had a great reputation for doing all that. When he showed up, he was like, exactly. Notebook in hand, like, hey, hey, sir, you know, what'd you think of that? What, what could I do better? Just a totally humble attitude. And because of that humble attitude, guess what? He did great. His platoon did great. Now I would have other guys that would have either less experience, more experience, but they didn't think they could learn anything. They thought they knew everything and it was such a bummer, man. I'd be like, well, hey, man, I know you, I know that might've worked or I know you might've been through this before, but.

• 23:11Jocko Willink?

  And it was just like, well, I've always done it this way or whatever. And it was just so painful to, to try and get through that. And the bottom line is people that were teachable and eager to learn would perform outstanding. And people that were unteachable and didn't wanna learn would do freaking terrible. And so no matter where you are, no matter how much experience you think you have, no matter how many times you've done the thing, just freaking be teachable. And, and be eager to learn and it's gonna have such a huge impact.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. And you know, stay curious, right? Like the best performers are intensely curious and they're trying to get better each and every day. So you're only gonna do that if you show up humble, ready to learn and uh, think that you don't know it all, you know?

• 23:53Jocko Willink?

  How much have you learned um, in a startup scenario with, with hoolygolf.com?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  How much time do we have? Man, I, I tell you what, when I, when I started out this uh, and, and when you first came to me, we were having this conversation about uh, about what we're gonna talk about here. Uh, I was like, man, I am, I'm living the new guy life. So I, I've had to, since leaving the military, uh, I went to business school and I was a new guy there. You know, I, I'm showing up, one of the rare uh, people that don't have any business background. So I have no disciplinary experience in anything. Right? So I'm, I'm doing all this stuff. I'm showing up with a new bat.

• 24:30Jocko Willink?

  Blowing shit up and machine gunning people.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  How does my experience as a preacher work in the boardroom here? But yeah, so I mean, I had to do all these things. I had to, I had to ask for help. I, you know, they, they give you all these modules to teach yourself advanced math and like pre calculus stuff, like all this is like overboard stuff, but yeah, I dug into all that and, and it just continued. It's like, and once, you know, we had our sights on Hooli. Okay. How do I do the job, you know, of, of a CEO? How, how do I do the job? How do we launch this thing? How do we market it? Suddenly I'm a sales guy. I'm, I'm cutting videos. I'm doing design shit. I'm doing accounting. It's like you're, you're wearing all these, these damn hats and uh,

• 25:16Speaker 01

  no one's handholding you to, to do this. So it's either, you know, you have the cash. If you're fortunate enough as, as a startup to have the cash, you can hire all this talent and you can handle those things. That's great. But if not, you're going to have to figure it out and

• 25:30Jocko Willink?

  But for everyone else.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  For, for everyone else, get on that YouTube. Start checking out tutorials, you know, reach within your network and get smart and um, yeah, man, I, I've been doing that and you know, that, that's, you know, worked out really well. To this point, I, I, each day I just tried to get a little bit better, tried to get Hooli, you know, just in a little bit better footing, uh, more efficient, try to learn from our customers and, and all that and uh, yeah, you know, and I also, it's the same methodology. This, this shit just, it translates to life. Uh, and how I've applied myself to golf in general. So um, golf is insanely hard. And you gotta be eager to learn. You gotta dig in there. You gotta figure out there's uh, you know,

• 26:12Speaker 01

  just a lot of parts of the golf swing that take a lot of time to work through, a lot of YouTube videos, a lot of instruction, a lot of nerding out. But uh, you know, if you want to get better at, at anything in life, uh, golf, business, um, being a good team guy, you gotta be eager to learn and uh, you gotta put in the work, man.

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  All right. So be teachable, be eager to learn. What's next?

• 26:34Speaker 01

  The hard way is usually the right way.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  And closely related is do it right or do it again.

• 26:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's always that temptation. Right? There's always a shortcut that you think you're gonna get away with. It's always there. Luckily, you know, you got BTF Tony. BTF Tony is not not doing it the easy way.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 26:58Jocko Willink?

  The shortcut.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  He's what comes to my mind like immediately whenever I I saw that I was like, oh, that's that's Tony. I mean, the things that he instilled. Man, I remember doing planning stuff for for training and and operations and just, you know, watching him. You know, plan and talk about infill and, you know, his thing was always we we got to do the hardest. The hardest way is generally the best because generally the enemy is not expecting you to come through that shitty muddy bog. Um, so, you know, yeah, that sucks, but tactically it's putting you in much better footing.

• 27:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I've, where I guess I learned this, not not necessarily the hard way, but doing the right thing at the right time. And I was working, we we were doing hydrographic reconnaissance for the Marine Corps. I was in an ARG platoon off the coast of Southern California. We went out in the middle of the night and did like the five hour freaking hydrographic reconnaissance in a big sea state. It was a total nightmare. Um, we get all of our soundings, we do the freaking stuff, we gather our slates back up, we drive back out to the big ship. The cartographer, which is the guy that makes the charts, Echo Charles, the two cartographers take all the information.

• 28:22Jocko Willink?

  They build the little map or the little chart, turn it over to the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps then comes, we we go back in the water, go back in the boats, back in the water. We go on the beach, we call in the Marines, the Marines come in. It's now been, you know, 48 hours of being awake and freaking being freezing cold and swimming and all this shit. And the Marines come in and they land and they get on the shore. And the Colonel in charge of the Marines is like, that was not good. We're doing it again. Go back to the boats. So all the Marines turn around. They go back to the boats. We go back to the boats. We got on the boats. They're like, hey, the Marines did not like the landing. They want to do it again. They want to do the whole thing again, starting with your hydrographic reconnaissance. We're like, okay.

• 29:08Jocko Willink?

  So we all freaking load the boats again, get our wet suits on, drive over the horizon with our little boats, you know, three hour transit, whatever. Get our boat pool set up and we're getting ready to get in the water. To do a hydrographic reconnaissance that we had just done, like whatever 36 hours before. So it's not like the beach had changed. And we're all freezing. And we're all tired. And it's still a big, giant crappy sea state. And we're in our boat pool. And we're about to get in the water and someone says to our platoon commander, who was a prior enlisted freaking stud. And one of the best guys ever, someone goes, are we going to do this thing again?

• 29:55Jocko Willink?

  And thank God it wasn't me. But someone said, are we going to do this thing again? And our OIC said, well, we don't have to. But would that be the right thing to do?

• 30:08Jocko Willink?

  And it was all quiet, just like that. And we said, get in the water, swimmer in and, and it's so true. Like, you know, just you gotta do the right thing and known Marines never would have known the big Navy would never would have known. We could have turned in the same chart that we had made the night before, but it would not have been the right thing to do. And, and and that is like the true frog man is not looking to cut those corners. And the only reason we didn't want to go is like cold, wet, tired, right? Like that's where you go through buds because cold, wet and tired is just part of life. And that's how you do your job. So shut up and get in the water.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, sometimes you got those demons though that are chirping at you, right?

• 30:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, a little weakness.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Maybe we can, maybe we can just skip this one.

• 30:56Jocko Willink?

  Ah, yeah, it's always that little, that little weakness is in there. And especially from a leadership perspective, it's like, hmm, you, you better do the right thing. You better do it the hard way. The hard way is usually the right, hey, not always. It's not like you do something hard just because it's hard. If there's a better way to do this, a smarter way, cool. We're all about that. But if it's the right thing to do, do the right thing. Good one. All right, what next?

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Don't make the same mistake twice.

• 31:23Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, uh, there's a lot of, uh, I almost say a lot. I mean, you're expected to make mistakes as a new guy.

• 31:33Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  And obviously working to make mistakes throughout our lives and careers and all that. Um, but there's a way, there's a way to handle these mistakes. And it's very important, particularly in the teams as a new guy, and you gotta own it. You gotta own the shit out of it. Cause if there's any resistance, you, you know, and it's clear that you're not taking ownership. You're not learning your lesson. You're going to suffer. And, uh, I mean, again, this, this applies to everything else. It's just, you know, you, you guys talk about ownership all the time and that's, that's what this is. It's owning up your mistakes. And then most importantly, you know, the debrief, what did I do wrong? How do I avoid it again?

• 32:16Speaker 01

  And then, you know, doing the remediation or whatever that is to make sure it never happens again.

• 32:22Jocko Willink?

  The escalation between your first mistake and your second mistake of the same thing in the, in the teams is a lot. Like you make a mistake, it's like, hey, dude, here's what you did wrong. Like make sure you don't do that again. And it, like you said, it's kind of expected. Uh, if you make that same mistake again, it escalates quickly because now you're just being dumb. I was on a trip back in the day and we were, I was in training cell with a couple of the guys. We were like Advon to a certain area. And there was, it was an area where there was bars and clubs and nightlife, as they say, Echo Charles.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:01Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, while I was a young, single team guy and was with some of the boys. And there was a master chief, a Vietnam master chief that worked in this particular area. And he was, you know, like a Vietnam master chief. And so we go out and one of the guys got into like a fight, you know, and he kind of like scraped up his knuckles. And the next day we're at work and you know, it's not a huge town. So, you know, word travels around and you know, of course the SEAL Master Chiefs kind of, kind of know some of the law enforcement or whatever. But anyways, we show up to work the next day and this buddy of mine has like, you know, scratched bruised knuckles, right? From cracking somebody.

• 33:43Jocko Willink?

  And the Master Chief's like, hey, he's one of those Master Chiefs. He's like, hey, what happened to your hand? And the dude's like, oh, I, I think I fell down the stairs or something stupid like that. And the Master Chief looked at him and goes, I've been in that team for 28 years. What happened to your hand? He's like, I punched someone in the face. It's like totally good to go. Like just tell the truth, own it, or your, things are going to get worse. Because of course, you know, he knows police, like it's all gonna, they're gonna get you. Like it's gonna, you just don't, you can't cover things up. Own it. You make a mistake. Don't make it again and carry on.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, you know, one thing that comes to mind, um,

• 34:27Speaker 01

  it's easier to make mistakes as, as new guys because you're expected to make certain amounts of mistakes. It's harder when you're a more experienced guy, even a leader, to make a mistake and how you handle that is even more important. Uh, I had a case where, um, yeah, I'm just going to be diamond myself out today. Just

• 34:49Jocko Willink?

  All good.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Just repenting on, uh, you know, some of, uh, my, my team guy mistakes, but I was on my fourth platoon. So this was after, after Ramadi, I went to a training command. I was perhaps a smidge rusty coming back and we were doing a jump and, uh,

• 35:04Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you're a smidge rusty on jumping. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Check. Yeah. When, when you're at a training command, you're, you're sucked into, I, I was at Bud's. So I was doing, you know, very basic training there. Uh, and we'd done some, uh, qual jumps or whatnot, but, uh, anyways, we were doing this jump, normal kind of profile. I was a little bit rusty. And, uh, they had me normally being a bigger, heavier guy, you're at the back of the, uh, of the train jumping out. Um, cause you fall faster than everyone else. For whatever reason, they put me out front. And anyways, they're they're giving the signals and one of the signals, which is the standby signal is a thumbs up. So they they hit the bottom of the floor, the thumbs up and I was like, fuck yeah, let's roll. And basically just jumped out 15 seconds early and the entire

• 35:51Speaker 01

  train jumped out. So we were hovering probably over Mexico a little bit. But after that, I didn't even realize what I'd done. When we jumped out, I was like, damn, we're kind of far from the DZ. We all made it back. And then the guys replied enough to let me know, hey, why'd you jump on standby? And then standby Bob was born. So there's been many Bobs, but for a while I was standby Bob. And you got to take on the chin, man, you know, you gotta, you gotta own it up. And especially if you're in a leadership position, you know, it sucks sometimes to take that, but you gotta, you gotta just take it, man.

• 36:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're, there's a very decent chance if you do something like that, you're gonna end up with a modified or new nickname.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  But if you fight it, the nickname lasts forever.

• 36:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. If you fight it, it's gonna stick even more.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  But no one knows me as standby Bobby anymore, except for a select few. Maybe now a couple more, I'll get a couple.

• 36:42Jocko Willink?

  There was a video of it wasn't me, it was in my platoon. I wasn't free fall qualified, but it was in, this is my first platoon. And like, there was a whole debate on the ramp of a guy saying like, go, no, no, no, go, no, no. It was like, it was all in video. It was just comical. So that's why we rehearse, you know, that's why we rehearse.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I mean, this goes to, we're talking about humility. And, you know, the longer you're in, the more likelihood you are to get complacent. And, you know, I've had a couple of periods in my career where I got, got a little complacent. And complacency kills. And that's why, yeah, you gotta fight it at all costs. The, there's another, we'll throw this in the mistake category here, but I watched Warfare this last week. Fantastic movie, man. Yeah, watched the episode with Joe and LA, man, and really powerful stuff. But when I was watching that movie, I've seen so many of the sights and sounds and feels that I was familiar with. It was blowing my mind. But there was one

• 37:49Speaker 01

  scene in particular, that is like, holy shit, I feel like I've seen this. And

• 37:58Speaker 01

  And no spoilers here. You already had them on. Yeah. But anyways, there's a scene where they're looking through the scope and you see these people scampering into the building. Like I saw that. And I saw that. And so I was on, I was on a gun. I wasn't a sniper, wasn't trained sniper, but you know, we all rotated through, you know, watch rotations essentially. So I spent a lot of my time on an A dub, looking down the sector, but I would rotate through sniper rifles. You know, I was trying to shoot rifles, but not as proficient as a sniper. But anyways, I was, I was, I saw this movement and I zoomed in and was looking at that. And

• 38:39Speaker 01

  right when I did that, out of my periphery, I saw a puff of smoke from across the street. And I looked and I locked eyes, you know, not beyond the scope, but with this fucker shooting an RPG like right in my face. And that thing zoomed in and I, I, you know, swept the scope over and it was zoomed in because I'm looking, you know, a thousand yards down and it was just blackness, nothing. I was basically, you know, not able to, to get that guy. And, uh, yeah, we got hit by a PKM, uh, soon after. But, um, yeah, you know, those are the mistakes that you don't want to, don't want to have to learn. But, um, you know, luckily we didn't get hit and, uh, just, you know, don't make that mistake

• 39:23Speaker 01

  again. And, you know, and, and whether or not that was a mistake or they just got one up on me, uh, from being zoomed in or not being, being aware of the immediate part of our sector. Uh, combat's hard, man. And sometimes, you know, even you're trying to do all the right things, uh, you're just going to get gotten sometimes.

• 39:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What, what did you, um, I had a, uh, my first deployment to Iraq, we were in this, uh, position. And do you remember when they had FLIR on the, on the Humvees for a little while? And so we were in this position and I had my Humvee in this kind of like bunkered position and we were looking across the river. This was in Baghdad and we're looking across the river and we're scanning for a while and all of a sudden this, this, um, and we had snipers out, but I had the flare, you know, so I was like, okay, I can help the snipers a lot. And so I'm looking across the river and all of a sudden, you know, this kind of, this kind of vehicle rolls by and it kind of rolls by again and then it stops. And then like guys get out and I'm like, oh, it's, you know, these guys are definitely setting up and they start like they open the trunk, you know, so now

• 40:25Jocko Willink?

  I'm like, okay, cool. This is, we're about to, we're about to kill some bad guys. Um, cause we were, we're on this fob that had been getting attacked a lot. And so now I'm like zooming in, I'm like trying to PID weapons, trying to PID weapons. I'm talking, you know, snipers like, hey, guys, right. It was, there was a bridge right there and it was like right by the bridge and they were like, we got him, we're tracking. And, uh, as I'm sitting there like totally focused on that, boom, we get hit with RPGs from like another spot. And it was so, as soon as it happened, I was like, dude, I just got so played because they did, made the total obvious thing for, to draw all of our attention, including mine. And then we got hit from probably 300 meters away, which

• 41:07Jocko Willink?

  is, I did not see any of it, which is boom, boom. I'm like, oh yeah, we just got played. Uh, that is, you know, the enemy's going to be smart. What do you remember? Uh, I know you're on that podcast I did with Joe and Elliot, we did, uh, you know, we kind of talked about the turnover and how, you know, what my feelings were when we turned over. It was like, you felt like you were letting your kid go like for the first time in the deep end or whatever. And it, it felt really hard to, to leave. How did you feel?

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think that's the sentiment there is, uh, you know, because you know that there's a learning curve and I, I knew where we were in April 2006 and then where we were by October, we were completely different humans and operators. And, uh, yeah, you just, you feel for the guys and you, you wish them the best in not knowing what they're going to face. You just hope that, you know, um, They're going to learn the lessons they need to learn the easier way.

• 42:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, tough one.

• 42:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:11Jocko Willink?

  All right, what's your next, what's your next? Uh, new guy advice, life advice.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yep, uh, we talked about humility. I think we're good on that one. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. One of my favorite team guy sayings. Love that. So from a, uh, from team guy perspective, this is a, a shooting term and it's really about, being smooth to, to draw your sights and a smooth trigger squeeze and that that is preferable to being fast jerky, throwing your rounds off target, missing and having to take follow on shots. So that's kind of the, uh, you know, the, the principle that applies to shooting, but I think in a broader context, yeah, yeah, I may be stretching it a little bit, but you guys talk about, uh,

• 42:57Speaker 01

  you know, oodle loop and, and detaching and I, I think, I think those are closely related in terms of just being smooth, right? Being, uh, observing, orienting, smooth and, and deliberate and, and, uh, some of the decisions that, that you're making. So you're not being hasty and emotional.

• 43:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, um, that's such a classic team guy saying, and I, I don't even know where, I think it might've originated from one of the shooting schools that we went to, but I'm not sure. Uh, maybe it came from the Vietnam guys. I don't know, but you know, when you shoot and especially when you're a new guy and you're trying to beat one of the older guys until you're going to fa- and the faster you try and go, the more shots you throw and the worse job you do. And just to be like, all right, just do what you're supposed to do. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast is a huge benefit. And I think it also applies, like what you're saying is not rushing decision making. And look, you're going to have to make decisions, but

• 43:57Jocko Willink?

  sometimes, and again, as, as much as we talk about being default aggressive and making things happen, there's some times it's like, okay, hold on a second. Let's, let's see where this, let's let this evolve a little bit. Let's let this play out a little bit. Let's see where this is. Let's see if this is the real problem. Because just like I just talked about, a guy that's in the vicinity of this FOB that has been getting attacked in the nighttime, when there's a curfew and he's out and he's opening up his trunk of his car, that seems like the biggest problem. And it got me totally sucked in. But if I would have been like, okay, cool. Let's take, let's take a bit, just, just widen the parameter of the FLIR thermal imager. And I would have seen the

• 44:41Jocko Willink?

  other dudes popping up with a couple RPGs that they're about to get slammed into us. So taking a step back, not getting target fixation, not rushing to judgment is a, is a good policy, not just when you're shooting, but when you're, when you're living.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Be smooth.

• 44:57Jocko Willink?

  Chuck, next.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Take care of your gear and your gear will take care of you.

• 45:04Jocko Willink?

  Ain't that the truth? Yep.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. So, um, seems, you know, I'm pretty common sense in, in the statement, but you know, one thing I think about in particular, being a breacher, just to get the level of like attention to detail on, on my gear, just to get an example of being a SEAL and being a SEAL breacher. But we have to operate our systems at night. We, you know, primarily do direct action missions at night. So everything that we do is under darkness, under nods. So when you're part of a breach team in particular, you're dealing with a charge, a number of charges, you know, no-nel firing devices. And, you know, not

• 45:49Speaker 01

  to get too much into our procedures, but there may be a procedure where, you know, it's, it's a two man job and, and there's some orchestration of that stuff. And, I mean, this could be a total goat rodeo. If, if you're not, you know, applying the attention to detail where it needs to be and how your gear is set up. But, you know, these charges have, there's a booster connected to it. There's this, and if it's. If it's not placed in your pouch the right way and you at the dark, you're going to pull that out. Like I had this folded in exact precise way. It wasn't upside down. It wasn't this. So I could reach in. I know when I'm grabbing it exactly where it's at. And I know there's like

• 46:29Speaker 01

  an adhesive to it. Um, I've pre-staged like a tape ball at the end of it because I, I don't want to be looking down. I want to feel, you know, but I don't have the dexterity in my gloves. So you know, you know exactly where everything's at. You got the no no wrapped this side. Um, you know, if I'm passing it off this way or that way, the, the firing device is laid on just this way. So that, you know, everything comes out and it's maximum efficiency on target. So, um, yeah, that, that's just one example of the level of attention to detail on, on the gear that, that I applied. But, you know, in the teams in general, um, our gear is, is king, man. From, from day

• 47:10Speaker 01

  one, our weapon systems, keeping them up and running, you know, uh, the post-op, the pre-op, making sure they're, they're ready to go. Um, op testing them, all of our life-saving equipment. Um, I was probably, you know, if there was an award for the slowest parachute packer in the teams, it was probably this guy. I wasn't putting anything to chance, man. I was always the last one there packing my shoe, you know, sweat just pouring off. But, uh, take care of your gear and your gear will take care of you.

• 47:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was, I was over jumping and I was on deployment back in the day and, uh, and we were jumping into some desert location and, you know, we land and we pack and, you know, cool. And we're kind of like, you know, uh, you know, we had a couple very proficient like leapfrog type jumpers in the platoon. They're like, come on guys, like hurry up. And like, okay, of course, you know? And so I kind of like, you know, rushed through a pack job and then, you know, we jump again and like, okay, my parachute's still open. Well, now we get down to the ground again and now the wind's picked up. So now we're out in the desert trying to pack our rigs and the, you know, things blowing and we're literally like taking rocks and putting

• 48:19Jocko Willink?

  them onto the chutes. And dude, I completely trash packed this rig and, uh, the shit didn't open. So yeah, I had a cutaway and really didn't feel good about it. Um, but you know, I was like, you know, is that smart? And it was also part of it, you know, it was not only, hey,

• 48:41Jocko Willink?

  Like I'm trying to hurry because I'm trying to get it done, but like that peer pressure of like, come on dude, like you don't want to be, you do not want to be the guy that's holding up the Hilo. Like a Hilo, a whole helicopter is waiting on you and you know, so I wasn't, and I wasn't the last guy done packing. Of course I wasn't because I trash packed that thing and it didn't open. So.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  This is the teams right here. Rather than doing the deliberate thing to take care of yourself, you don't want to let down your buddies.

• 49:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a hundred percent. Maybe not the best call in that particular scenario. And the other piece of gear you gotta take care of is your body, like your, you know, and you're just, you know, the SEAL teams and the military is very rough on your, on your body. And a lot of times guys don't help it, right? They don't help the process. Like they eat like crap, drink alcohol. Don't, I think one of the worst things that, that people do is stop working out for three weeks. Stop working out for a month, whatever the case may be. Oh, you went, you know, you went on a trip or you got back from a trip or your family this. And guys stop working out for six weeks.

• 49:48Jocko Willink?

  And all of a sudden, when you get back to working out or you get back to the field, you think you can still do what you were doing. And it's like, you know what? That works when you're 20. Like when I was, when I was got out of BUDS, bro, I could show up what it didn't matter. You're, you're in shape from BUDS for a while. Like they just, it just, it just is part of you. But then eventually you're like, oh, I would see guys not work out and who do you think is going to get hurt? Like if you haven't worked out and then all of a sudden you're sprinting carrying a freaking down man, like you're getting hurt. So.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Especially dues of our advanced age. I mean, once you get over 40, you gotta keep moving because if you don't move it, you're going to lose it and you may not get it back.

• 50:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you caught it. You gotta fight it every day. You gotta get it. You gotta get it done every day. You gotta move every day. I really do think like I've been very lucky on, you know, training and. You know, jujitsu, like, I mean, I get, I've gotten dinged up from jujitsu, but I'm still training and I'm still training hard. I'm still lifting, still running, still doing stuff hard. And I think one of the main reasons for that is the fact that I don't stop moving and I never go, you know, it's been a few months since I worked out, dude. That's, that's when you're getting hurt.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Do you still do muscle ups?

• 51:05Jocko Willink?

  Yes, yes. Actually, technically, right now I have some tendonitis in my right arm that we're, we're, we're getting there. But, um, so it's not at this moment, but yes, muscle ups are part of the thing.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Good for you, man. I was never a muscle guy. My shoulder mobility never, I've only done a couple in my entire life, but I was always impressed. I remember back in the Yeah, you're doing a bunch of muscle ups.

• 51:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we had a, one of the new guy officers came over, uh, to Ramadi and I don't know if you remember, I had rings in the like gym there. And this guy came up to me, he's a good, he's a good dude. He's an Ensign, you know, brand new officer. He's like, he's like, hey, sir, you know, I've been having some troubles with my shoulder. Do you have any recommendations? And I was like, yeah, muscle ups.

• 51:49Jocko Willink?

  So, uh,

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, on that, the, uh, the teams are getting a lot smarter. You know, I mean, when, when we come up, when we came up, there was no thought of taking care of yourself. It was just run yourself into the ground. And that's why everyone in our generation just became broken at some point. Uh, but now it's, it's built in, you know, they got, uh, they got touch points throughout. You got, you got nutritionists, you got trainers. Um, yeah, it's pretty good.

• 52:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And they don't like, they're not as abusive to their bodies as we were, um, which is awesome. So there's progress there. And then the other thing I'll say on this is I've taken this, take care of your gear and your gear will take care of you. I've also changed that to take care of your people and your people will take care of you.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:32Jocko Willink?

  So if you treat your, your team like shit, they're not going to care about you. But if you take care of them, they'll take care of you. So this applies to everything. All right. What's next? What do you got?

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Become an asset and make yourself indispensable.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  So, yeah, in, in the teams, especially as a new guy, that's what you're trying to do as fast as humanly possible is become. A reliable entity that people trust and that, you know, they'll bring you on the mission. Cause it's not, not guaranteed that you're going on the mission and/or if you do go that you're not going to get marginalized into some position. You know, in the back of the train or whatever else. So, you know, it's about putting in the work to get yourself there. Lot of work on your own, finding the mentors that you need and then taking advantage of opportunities, you know, when they come.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  There was one, one vignette I could think of as a new guy. I had a new guy buddy with me that uh, we, we'd done butts together. Until I got rolled and then uh, you know, I met him, he, we, we joined the same platoon, Charlie. And anyways, uh, he was a comms guy and, you know, he wasn't super happy with the level of like comms training and support at that time. Like early 2000s. Um, so we had some new like emerging technologies and we just weren't where he thought we should be. And as a new guy, he just like geeked out and he got all the manuals. He started reaching out to SMES.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  And uh, on that deployment, he actually ended up um, creating some innovation. I won't get too into the details, but it had to do with. Basically we got, we got a task to do the exploitation of like a strategic level operation. So after the operation went down. We went and did some exploitation and we're sending photos at like high level folks were seeing. And he was able to do this in an environment that had never been done before. You know, so just because you're a new guy, doesn't mean you can't innovate and bring value.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  You know, it's the, the ball's in your court. It's just, you know, how far can you get? How fast, you know?

• 54:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And in fact, as a new guy, you might have a little bit more of an open mind than

• 54:54Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 54:55Jocko Willink?

  than other people. And this is like especially when it comes to technology, like people like me.

• 55:02Jocko Willink?

  May not be all that technologically savvy, but if you roll in there and you can make things happen, yeah, it's it's so critical and it's so it's oftentimes it's like the, you know, hey, this is, this is how someone does the business, right? This is how we do it. And they don't see the holes or the gaps that you might be able to see when you go, wait a second, why are we do, why do we have this one? We just get this app over here? Or why don't we just program this thing? Or, or whatever the case may be, why don't, wouldn't it be more efficient to do this? And they just don't see it sometimes. And so rolling in there, and of course, you got to be humble. But if you roll in there and you can say, hey, we can, we can make this more efficient, we can, you know, accelerate our progress here by doing these things. It's, it's very beneficial. That's a huge

• 55:45Jocko Willink?

  part of it. And then, you know, as simple as this might sound, like you, the first thing you said was if you're reliable, like, being a reliable human that is going to do the right things on the right time and be on time and have the right gear, like, that is, believe it or not, a legit freaking asset. If I can count on this dude to be here at this time with the right gear, 100%, man, that is, that's huge in its own right. So, good way to become an asset.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, damn right.

• 56:20Jocko Willink?

  What's next?

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Keep your world small.

• 56:24Jocko Willink?

  What does that mean? What do you mean by that?

• 56:26Speaker 01

  So, as a new guy in this, this kind of, uh, you know, from training to being a new guy is don't, don't get overwhelmed with, you know, the big picture and all these things. Keep your world small, uh, you know, focus on the procedure, the, the teams, everything we deal with in close quarters combat, you know, immediate action drills, maneuver warfare, you know, it's all if this, then that, it's all a set of procedures. So, looking at, um, you know, I think pool comp is like the best example that people know about in our training pipeline of, you know, pool comp is this series of underwater, um, or it's, it's

• 57:11Speaker 01

  an underwater test where they're stressing you the hell out, they're taking away your air source, um, you know, getting you near drowning and then letting you work yourself out of that, uh, procedure there. And, you know, if we go all the way back to there, it's keeping your world small and okay. I don't have an air. First, I gotta check, you know, make sure the air is on. Okay, the air is on, tracing the hoses. So it's easy to get overwhelmed in extremely stressful situations, but keeping your world small, especially as a new guy, when you're not as familiar with all the things that you're doing, the more you could focus on the procedure.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  And yeah, you know, it's led me to, you know, get through a lot of stuff beyond, beyond just being a team guy. You know, business is a roller coaster and, you know, like you can get jerked around a lot emotionally. If every little thing that happens, you're, you know, kind of losing your shit. So, you know, focusing on the fundamentals, the things you got to do to get better, you know, recognizing where to make the adjustments. And, you know, I mean, man, translates to life and everything else. And, yeah, you know, one, one thing that one team guy vignette, that is a very strong one. You talked about

• 58:32Speaker 01

  having a cutaway. I had, I had myself a little free fall issue once as well. And Good times. I believe keeping my world small, like saved my damn life. So like little backstory here is, this is like circa 2012. I was dealing with some really bad back issues. My platoon chief, I was just fighting through it. And we, we had a jump week and we were progressing through that jump week and culminating in a combat equipment jump. And yeah, I wasn't gonna not train. It's just everything I did hurt really bad. And so, you know, maybe this, this pertains to something else we've already talked about here, but we're jumping

• 59:12Speaker 01

  with a ruck and I thought it best to lighten up that ruck a little bit, really just alleviate, you know, the sitting around, having that thing. It sits in between your legs for, you know, you're sitting for hour, hour and a half. Just an excruciating pain to have anything pulling on me. So anyways, I lightened up that ruck and then we went out and proceeded to do the jump. And, you know, I waddled up to the door and I threw myself out. And I don't know if it was a combination of the, the lightness of the ruck or

• 59:48Speaker 01

  How the straps became loose, but that damn thing turned into a sail. It caught air and I started violently flipping. Um, essentially for like 7,000 feet. So I, I was violently forward flipping.

• 1:00:01Jocko Willink?

  Forward flipping?

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:03Jocko Willink?

  That's bizarre.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  It is bizarre. Yeah. So the, the ruck, the ruck had a basically caught, you know, it's in between your legs and it had like, dropped down and was catching wind like a sail. So I, I was trying to, I was trying to counterbalance it. And trying to like basically sit fly and do some other things. And I was having a hard time getting, getting stable. I would basically get stable for a second. And then I would flip again. And so like through this whole time, I was surprisingly like, pretty calm through it, although I knew, like if I didn't get my shit together really, really fast, this was going to be bad. And I also knew, like, I can't, I can't pull this as I'm flipping.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  You know, because we'll get tangled and, and I'll be down. So, you know, it's very keen that I had to figure this out and pull at a precise moment. And, and I did just that. I, I found a sit fly position. I was stable for like three seconds. I pulled that damn thing into pulling at the right altitude and floating down with everyone else. No one else had a clue what the hell I'd been through. But, uh, you know, I think just wanted many examples of, you know, high stress pressure situations where, you know, just focus on the procedure, trying to correct your position and not, because if you're just worried about death, you're going to die.

• 1:01:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're going to die.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:01:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I've always, when, when I first saw that, I was like, keep your world small. I've heard people talk about like, training, like Bud's training. Don't think of six months. Don't think of

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:01:32Jocko Willink?

  one month. Don't think of first phase. Think of like, I'm going to make it through this log PT right now and make it to breakfast or whatever. So that's one. But the way you're describing it really makes me think of like prioritize and execute. Like, okay, there's a lot of shit going on right now. I'm could die, but right now what I need to focus on is getting stable so I can pull my ripcord. That's the most important thing in the world. None of this other shit matters and that's what I'm going to take care of. So yeah, that's when there's a lot of crazy things going on, like what's the most important thing? What do I need to actually focus on right now? I can't do four things at once. You know, you probably couldn't even at that point, you know, you're probably done checking your altimeter. You've like, I've just got to get stable and freaking pull my ripcord.

• 1:02:13Jocko Willink?

  Like not worried about this, not worried about that. I don't care where the DZ is like, I need to get stable and pull my ripcord. That's a little prioritize and execute activity.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  That was it, man.

• 1:02:24Jocko Willink?

  All right, next.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Rehearsals and visualizing to enhance performance. So like this is definitely something as our pipeline has evolved. That has been more ingrained into the training, at least it had been when I left business training back in 2021. And I know the team's got a lot better about this. We, we kind of hit on this earlier. You know, about the value of doing, doing rehearsals, but at that micro level as an individual, you know, running yourself through. You know, if you're doing a training evolution, if you're doing an operation, whatever that is, running through the procedure, rehearsing that and actually visualizing, um, you know, as close as you can replicate whatever it is you're going to be doing. There's a lot of value in that. And obviously, uh, we've seen a lot of this in sports nowadays.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  There's just a big movement towards visualization, performance. It's a, it's, I mean, it's big in golf. Professional golfers are doing it. Uh, obviously a lot of the other athletes have been doing this for a while, but, uh.

• 1:03:24Jocko Willink?

  One thing that was something that kind of got lost for a while was when I first got to the teams. It was for a mission, you were supposed to prep gear one third of the time, plan one third of the time and rehearse one third of the time. One third, one third, one third. And for a while it became like 90% planning, which really translated to 90% sitting around making powerpoint slides that the commanding officer could be impressed with your, uh, your fonts and whatnot. And we really got away from, I saw, I saw people getting away from rehearsals. And luckily I was always very, you know, As adamant as I could be about that one third, one third, one third. And look, there was a certain time where there was a certain things where it's like you'd know

• 1:04:09Jocko Willink?

  you're gonna have to freaking put this major PowerPoint thing together so that the whoever is gonna see it and go, wow, it looks like you really aren't prepared for this. It's like, no, we haven't rehearsed at all. We're not ready for shit. No, actually, the, the deal is one third, one third, one third, one third gear prep, which we would get pretty efficient at gear prep. We really wouldn't take that much time. You know, maybe if you got back in the day, if you got hit with some mission that you, you hadn't been doing, right? Like if you get suddenly hit with a, a duck drop OTB, it's gonna take you a third of the time to get that gear ready. And then the next day you're doing a, you know, a target assault and the next day you're doing a combat swimmer op, like it will take you more time, but we get in that rhythm of

• 1:04:51Jocko Willink?

  like, oh, we're doing a, we're doing a DA, we're doing a DA, we're doing a driving DA, we're doing a driving DA. Do we like, oh, we're doing a, a, an Overwatch, an Overwatch, we're like you, you don't, it doesn't take one third of the time to prep your gear. Uh, but rehearsals and, and, and that also goes with rehearsals too. Like we rehearse getting in and out of the vehicles. Well, if you haven't done a land, a vehicle op before, or you're working with people you haven't worked with before, yeah, you need to spend a third of that time getting in and out of the vehicles. How are you gonna line up the vehicles? What are you gonna do if there's a down vehicle? What's your toe, toe, your rig for toe situation? Who's changing tires? Like all that stuff, but we would do like just operation after operation after operation

• 1:05:33Jocko Willink?

  where you could do a three minute walkthrough, getting out of the vehicles one time and everyone's like, yep, cool, we're good. Everyone knows what vehicles are in. Yep, cool, got it. So you could spend a little more time planning and a little less time with rehearsals and a little less time with gear prep, but ultimately knowing what those numbers are and understanding the importance of, of rehearsal, which man, walking through something one time is.

• 1:05:59Jocko Willink?

  It increases people's capabilities like five times.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. This is something we did a lot in Ramadi too. So like every time we did a DA, we would do exactly what you're talking about. And it seems, you know, from an outsider looking in, like amateur level shit, you know, pulling up, vehicles are in this order, they're looking this direction, guys are stepping out, fields of fire, and then, you know, the assault is moving this way or whatever. We did that every single time. And you know what? Every single time I also did was every breach that I did, every single breach I did overseas is we did a walkthrough like that. So you've done dozens, hundreds of breaches, guys, all experienced dudes, and we're doing

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  very basic level walkthroughs because if nothing else, it's, you're creating muscle memory, right? So that it's instinctive that when we're on target, we know what the target looks like, we know we're going right. And obviously, anything could change, right? You know, you you train to your plan A, and then you read and react based off your SOPs after that. But what we did is we became like really efficient about breaching and assaulting. And we're minimizing our time on the X because we've rehearsed this over and over again. I know I'm going left, you're going right, this is what's happening. And bam, that charge is, you

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  know, off and we're inside before anyone knows what's happened. That applies to, you know, so many different things.

• 1:07:29Jocko Willink?

  Doing walkthroughs. Good. Next.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  This is another popular team that I won, and two is one, one is none.

• 1:07:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, check.

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:40Jocko Willink?

  Make sure you got your gear.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, got your gear.

• 1:07:42Jocko Willink?

  You didn't have some redundant gear.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got a good story here. So when I was on last time, I told a story, I won't recount the entire thing, but basically, we were doing a training operation, big Navy exercise, training with the submarine. I had like a near death experience, Zodiac flipped, yada, yada. Well, after that whole thing transpired, we still have the entire operation to do. That was just the insert. And so we, um, what had, what had happened at that, we flipped the Zodiac on a, you know, pulling the Zodiac off the submarine and launching. Uh, all of our shit got soaked and we got some gear that basically got damaged. Uh, so we inserted our, our swimmers and our,

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  uh, our radio had been, uh, you know, just soaked. So basically it was inoperable and we had had an issue. Sea state had kicked up and so we had to change our link up with, uh, the Mark Fives were supposed to pick us up in the middle of the ocean essentially. And due to sea state, we, we had some changes. We were relying on this communication to get relayed. Well, it never did or it never got back to us. And, uh, come that morning, we're floating out in the ocean waiting for pickup. It just never came.

• 1:08:58Jocko Willink?

  This is just such a freaking typical freaking team guy disaster. Just, just, it just adds up. Like every little thing. Oh yeah. We flipped the boat, which is no big deal except for the radio flooded, except we needed to get, I guess, just, yeah.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  And, and it turned into a lot more. So we, uh, we missed our, our link up our X rack. Night becomes day. We're just floating out there. We're super smoked. Chris was out there with me too. He was one of the, uh, those Zodiac drivers. We're just smoked and floating out in the ocean all night. And we were all, you know, soaked from the sea state. And, uh, anyways, we made the decisions like, all right, well, I guess we go back to land. You know, we can't talk to anyone. We're floating out here in the ocean. We went back. This, uh, this island that we were on was like, uh, there was like thousands of seals and sea lions. And we just pulled up amongst them. We just racked out, you know, set our stuff out, tried to, uh, drive the radio.

• 1:09:50Jocko Willink?

  Where was this? Uh, was it like around San Diego?

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Uh, it was near, uh, I want to say like San Nicholas.

• 1:09:56Jocko Willink?

  San Nick. Okay. Yeah. I've been there. That's what, there's freaking, uh, elephant seals on there and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no, it's, it's like a little wild out there. It's a little western.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, there were zero shits by the time we were so smoked, we just pulled up to this. I mean, it was like the National Geographic filming thousands of these guys and we laid out and basically had no columns with anyone and, you know, just hoping people were going to find us.

• 1:10:22Jocko Willink?

  Who was with you? Was it like a platoon?

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  No, well, we

• 1:10:27Jocko Willink?

  Was it just like the boat?

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  We dropped off, it was a platoon op. We dropped off a couple of SR teams and I think two Zodiacs. So there were like four of us, two per boat, four of us alone enough. Right. And so we were stranded on this island throughout the day and then we saw a P3 flying overhead. And I think we got them on a bitter or something at some point, but we notified the Mark Fives where we were. And then they came to pick us up that evening, showed up. We thought our night was over. Sea state kicked up, weather kicked up, it's storming, bowbreakers. And the boat got stuck out in the middle. Like I guess we ran over kelp and went in the jets. So we were stuck out there all night through the next, next morning.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I mean, going back to as one was non right. If we have two radios, if we have a redundant capability, our night is two days less long.

• 1:11:23Jocko Willink?

  Bro, I've spent a lot of time out there, that little San Diego AO of operations. We get driving back down motors, towing with a 35 horsepower spare engine, like just drifting into Mexican waters. Coming up on HF radio calling like port facilities, trying to see if we could get help. Yeah, the water don't play around. Don't play around. All right, next.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  If you're not going to be smart, be hard.

• 1:11:52Jocko Willink?

  It's a good one.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  I mean, I think you should be both, really.

• 1:11:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  But definitely as a new guy, you're going to have to be hard. You're going to have to carry more weight than everyone else. You're going to be working longer hours than than everyone else. So, you know, that's it.

• 1:12:08Jocko Willink?

  If you're going to be stupid, you gotta be tough. Yeah. Check, concur.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, you you mentioned uh with the uh, you know, pod with uh, Joan Elliott um about the the over watches, like how how hard those actually were and how that was captured. I I think um, you know, pretty well in in that movie uh Warfare, but um, yeah, those were some long gnarly ops, man. And um, you know, long patrols in, uh, super hot, nasty, um, you know, carrying a shit ton of weight and then and then you get there and you're standing watch essentially waiting for bad shit happen. Um, yeah, those are some some long gnarly ops and uh, our new guys were studs, man. They they handle that again. Um, you know,

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  exactly as they were trained to do and uh represented, but uh, yeah, just kind of came to mind.

• 1:13:07Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, I remember sitting in like uh, Cop Falcon and I was just sitting there and I had been sitting there downstairs, like the army had moved in, they're starting to build the combat outpost. You guys pushed down to forest or I think it was forest or you guys pushed down there and I'm like sitting there and I am in a full athletic sweat. Like I'm sitting, I've been sitting there for like two hours. Like I'm not moving. I'm just sitting there and I'm in a full athletic like drip, drip, drip, drip. And that's how hot it is. I mean, it's 120 degrees. It's freaking totally ridiculous. And um, yeah, that's the way it is, man.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  The hard, yup.

• 1:13:49Jocko Willink?

  Check. Next.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  Attention to detail. So I mean, this is in in that phrase is just uh hammered in buds, but I mean, that's.

• 1:13:59Jocko Willink?

  This is actually hammered in Navy boot camp.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:02Jocko Willink?

  Really? Like, because he's Navy boot camp. You know, this is a kid that's 17 years old in Navy boot camp and he's going to be, you know, loading the ordinance onto an aircraft and making sure that it's done correctly. And so they really want to make sure that you have attention to detail. And the team's the same damn thing.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  It's it, man. Everything we do is high risk, whether that's training or or operations and all of it. Uh, it's a lot of little details, man. And all the all those details matter. The orders matter sometimes. Um, yeah.

• 1:14:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, and and one thing that you notice is.

• 1:14:40Jocko Willink?

  That's part of your reputation. You know, if you're not, if you're, if you're constantly dropping the ball on the little things, you know, how can I count on you to do the big things if you can't even get the little things right? And you know, someone might be like, well, you know, this isn't that important. Well, it is that important. Like the little things, that's like, that's saying how you do anything is how you do everything. Yep. That's one of those, another little like team guy ish saying of the little things are going to matter. That's how you get your reputation. You know, if you show up late, you forget things, you forget that little thing, you're not in the right uniform. All those little things add up, man. They all add up.

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you know, before you become the leader, as you're progressing through whatever career that is, you know, if you don't know the details, you don't know the jobs and the smaller parts, points of performance of the job, then you can't really lead that. So it all starts from the fundamentals of the attention detail. Um, yeah, man.

• 1:15:33Jocko Willink?

  They matter. You got any more?

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. Um, be a good follower. You know, I know you, you guys talk a little bit about this, the, uh, you know, the dichotomy of being a good leader, the, the opposite of that, the reciprocal of that is being, being a good follower. And, uh, you know, sometimes that could be challenging, uh, but it's super important. And, um, yeah, man, you gotta, you know, part, part of that is especially as a new guy, like learning the mission, like you may not understand all the things, but it's, you know, getting yourself informed, getting plugged in, um, you know, understanding the chain of command and, uh, you know, knowing, knowing how to respect, uh,

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  leadership and how to, you know, I mean, just be a good teammate, you know? So one, one example, I was thinking with, uh, with Leif, um, Leif made it really easy to be, be a good follower because he was a really tremendous leader and I really appreciated his style. Um, you know, as, as leaders, you, you pick and pull from different leaders that you have. And, uh, you know, he was less experienced in the teams than I was, but like super mature, great, great leader. And, you know, he had a, this is like a superpower in terms of leadership, but just a way of connecting with his people at a very human level.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  And, you know, he's funny as shit. And that's a, you know, I'm not sure if everyone gets, gets to see that really, really funny guy, uh, engaging dude, but, um, and, and he's willing to have, you know, discussions with you, but in the same sense, uh, you know, he knows how to make a call and you know, when it's time to, to fall in line and, and listen to that. And one, one such case, uh, I had is we, we were doing an operation. I think this is, um, was a, what was that village right outside of,

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Um, so we were doing an, an operation there and we had a, uh, you know, normal direct action mission there and we hit the target. Uh, actually the, the breach went off and we, we rushed, you know, the room, kind of like a mud room and, uh, fireworks started going off in there. I'm not sure if you remember this, but the, uh, the Jocelyn incident. So essentially we, we come into this room and, you know, gunshots are, are happening. Like it's like, damn, this, this is a hot target. Guys are starting to prep frags. Like it's on, um, you know, sucking out of the doorway and, uh, make entry and ends up being like an old guy in kind of a dry hole. And, and, you know, I'm certainly

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  perplexed like what the hell happened. It turned out one of our, uh, Iraqis in the back of the train had an AD, um, almost smoked all of us. But anyways, after, after that whole event, we got the intel, okay, the guys over here. Couple of houses down. Couple of houses down, kind of like in an apartment complex. And, um, you know, being the preacher that I was, I wanted to blow up everything, just standard. And Leif had seen something that I hadn't seen. He'd seen some, uh, some small shoes sent out the, uh,

• 1:18:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like multiple pairs of kid's shoes outside the door. Yeah.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  Yep. So, uh, you know, Leif kind of gave me the initial guidance, say this, this is what we're doing. And, uh, you know, there was a little bit of, not pushback, but I, I, I think we should do this. Leif was like, you know, negative, not, not doing that. So, uh, and I immediately backed off because I, once you get that signal that this is not a discussion, this is a call. Um, so I think that's part of straddling that, uh, being, being a good follower, knowing, knowing when you got to get in line. Um, yeah, it's part of it.

• 1:19:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And the Leif being funny part. So I, on that podcast I did with Joe and Elliot, Leif had sent me a bunch of emails between him and Elliot and, because they were, they were real tight bros.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Jocko Willink?

  And, um, the funny thing is, so I got him and I'm like, all right. So I had to like edit them down because there's like inappropriate stuff in there. And so, and then I, I told Leif, I was like, hey, man, I, thanks for sending those emails. Yeah. I, I edited them down, you know, just to clean them up. He's all, I already edited them down. So I had to edit it down, the edited down version, you know, but there were just a bunch of, uh, a bunch of smack talking in there and stuff like that. Um, and yeah, and that's, I always, you know, I always joked that Leif is like a, a lot nicer than I am. You know what I mean? Like he's just nice. You know, he's just a nice, whatever, uh, what's that like southern etiquette type dude, you know, he's just super nice to people and I'm, I'm not, I'm like a New Englander who are

• 1:20:21Jocko Willink?

  born like, you know, angry and cold, you know, that's sort of my, more my, more my general, uh, uh, atmospherics that I give off, I guess. Even though, you know, I like to have fun too occasionally, just not while we're at work. So, uh, all right. Is that, is that, is that your list?

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  I, I have one more.

• 1:20:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay, let's go.

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  Funny one.

• 1:20:46Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:20:47Speaker 01

  So this has no context beyond the context I'm giving it here, but never miss an opportunity to take a piss. I think this does apply.

• 1:20:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is a good one.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  As a team guy, but I got a story as a new guy, we were doing a, I believe we were working in Fallon. And we're doing, back then, we did a lot of SR training and like hardcore SR training, long inserts, long in fills. Uh, this was supposed to be a 20 minute insert. And, you know, multi-day op, we're carrying a bunch of shit. So I'm like.

• 1:21:14Jocko Willink?

  Did you pre-hydrate?

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Oh dude, you know it.

• 1:21:16Jocko Willink?

  That's a big one. So Echo Charles, you're gonna go in the field for two days, three days and you gotta carry a shit ton of water. You can actually drink enough water before you go that you won't need water for the first day.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:26Jocko Willink?

  Like, I'm serious. That seems crazy, but you can do it. And generally speaking, you kind of want to do it because you don't want to, there's nothing worse than being thirsty, talking about, you know, when Bob was going through heat exhaustion in Ramada, you don't, that's a terrible thing. You're a total, you're total, uh, disaster soup sandwich. It's just terrible. So like the pre-hydration of just pounding water is what everyone does. And you think, cool, I'll piss right before I get on the airplane, hopefully, or right, right before I get on the helo and then it's 20 minute insert. Cool. No, you don't, you don't think about it that much. Cause normally if you gotta take a piss, you take a piss.

• 1:22:03Jocko Willink?

  You don't always have those opportunities. All right. Proceed.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we're moving and, uh, I did exactly that. I pre-hydrated because we had a long patrol after that. And so 15 minutes comes by, I'm like, okay, we're getting close. 20 comes by, I'm like, we're really close. And 30, it's like, okay, this is M net, but I'm, I'm starting to, I gotta piss. 30 becomes 45. Now we're in an hour and I'm doing, I'm doing the PP dance and, uh, I'm hurting. And so like we get, uh, I think we're 90 minutes in and, and we get, we get to a hover and I'm like, oh my God, thank God. It's, it's now time. And, uh, we're hovering for about five minutes and I'm like, it's happening. And then we take off and we're another, another half an hour. I'm beside myself. And eventually two hours in.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  We land and you know, whatever I I go admin for for a couple of minutes here. But the funny part and and when you were mentioning earlier about, uh, you know, we're never going to stop a Hilo for this one guy. Well, when we hovered that 90 minutes in, it's because the other Hilo actually had them land. Cause the guy had to piss really bad. And so

• 1:23:11Jocko Willink?

  And they didn't tell you.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  They didn't tell me.

• 1:23:13Jocko Willink?

  Freaking bastards.

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. For for the young team guys out there, bring a Gatorade bottle when you're on a Hilo.

• 1:23:18Jocko Willink?

  Just bring Gatorade bottle and you're all good.

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Good to go. And that's it for me.

• 1:23:22Jocko Willink?

  All right. Um, I got, I got some here. Some. Again, I was just kind of like going through my thoughts and of life. All right. Well, well, and some of these we kind of hit on a little bit, but I'll bring them up again. Just, just as a little bit of an angle. Here's one. Team gear, platoon gear, personal gear, then yourself.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:23:41Jocko Willink?

  So when you come back from an operation, you take care of the team gear first, which is like the, the freaking boats or whatever. Then you do platoon go platoon gear, which is like your boats. Then you do your personal gear, then yourself. So don't be getting in the shower before your weapons cleaned. And don't clean your weapon until the Humvee is refueled and prepped. And if you, if you break this procedure, it's a freaking mortal sin in the teams. It's a mortal sin to take care of your own shit before you took care of the platoon shit. That's the way it is.

• 1:24:14Jocko Willink?

  So that's my, that's my number one. Number two, this came from my LPO, my first platoon. Always go out. And what he meant, cause he was a partier. What he meant was always go out, like to the bar, to the pub. You land somewhere in some foreign city and the, you know, the plane's going to be on the ground for three hours. Go out. That's what he meant. I like rearranged it in my head to mean like, hey, you go out. Like you get a chance to do training, you get a chance to do a mission, you get a chance to, I don't care if you're going to go out and I'm going to be the, the freaking, uh, backup boat driver. But if that's what I, if that's the job I'm going to be able to get, I'm going to take it. You always go out. If there's a training mission, cause I know it sounds crazy, but you get that point in the teams where you're on your third, fourth, fifth deployment.

• 1:25:00Jocko Willink?

  And you're like, well, you know, SR team's going out. You know what? They only need six guys. There's eight guys in our squad. I can, I can stay back in the talk and do comms. Like no, always go out. And that's a good attitude to have. Um, there's the old one. Why sit? Why stand when you can sit? Why sit when you can lie down? There is validity to that. Like if you get a chance to take a rest, take a rest. If there's a chance where nothing's going on, lay down, put your feet up, elevate your feet above your heart, you know, and sleep. You're gonna need sleep sometimes.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that in Bud's and I'm not sure if this was a tradition that you guys had or if it still goes on, but uh, there were used to be this hideout spot that the

• 1:25:43Jocko Willink?

  There was no hideout spots when I was in Bud's.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  The uh, after Chow, like the, the uh, the trick was the hack was we would eat fast and then we would go to this hideout spot and, and you would take a 15 minute nap and that 15 minute nap was like, man, boss. But yeah, like, uh, you know, you want to see a whole platoon of sleeping team guys? Just take them up in the plane, get ready to jump. Every single dude has passed out.

• 1:26:11Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I, I made one, which is don't be so far forward leaning that you're in the leaning rest. So the leaning rest is the, is the army term for like being in the push-up position. They call it the front leaning rest. And yet you'd have these like officers that would be like, hey, we want to be forward leaning on this. And they would be so far forward leaning like, hey, we need to prep the gear and do the rehearsal, do this, all this stuff. You haven't even gotten tasked with a damn mission yet. And you're so far forward leaning that we're prepping for stuff that's not going to happen or could change radically. So it's good to be forward leaning, but don't be so far forward leaning that you're in leaning rest. Um, hey, use the chain of command. I know this might sound crazy. Use the chain of command up and down. And where this, where I remember about this is guys would come to me,

• 1:26:56Jocko Willink?

  because I was bros with a lot of different dudes and like guys that were four, five levels below me in the chain of command. They'd come up and be like, hey, can we get this piece of gear? And I would always say like, did you talk to your LPO? Did you talk to your chief? Like, you know, go talk to your chief, because your chief probably can make this happen without me. And by the way, your chief might have a reason why he doesn't want to do that. So go talk to your chief. And same thing, if a guy's doing something jacked up, I'm not, my, my initial instinct isn't be like, go right to them. No, I'm going to talk to a chief and say, hey, have you seen what Echo's doing? He seems like he's a little off track. Oh, let me find out what's going on. So just use the chain of command. No big deal.

• 1:27:37Jocko Willink?

  Never turn down a school you're offered. And then when you get to the school, be number one in the school.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:27:41Jocko Willink?

  That's a, that's a good one.

• 1:27:46Jocko Willink?

  Your reputation is everything and everything you do is your reputation. Everything you do. Everything you do is your reputation. And your reputation is everything. So when you're doing dumb shit,

• 1:27:59Jocko Willink?

  don't do it. When there's an opportunity to cut a corner that you think no one's going to see, everyone's going to see it. They're going to find out about it and they're going to hold it against you forever.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Yep, sure.

• 1:28:09Jocko Willink?

  So just be careful.

• 1:28:14Jocko Willink?

  This was one that I learned early on. Uh, avoid where, I think, I think this was in Marcinco's book too. I think that's where I remember it from.

• 1:28:23Jocko Willink?

  Avoid wearing a uniform at all costs, but if you have to wear it, look perfect. That was a hundred percent the way I operated. Like I would do, pretty much jump through hoops to avoid putting on a uniform. But if you got to put it on, you look freaking a hundred percent squared away. Don't show up looking like a dipshit.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think like to that, just to drill down on that, it's a part of showing people that you can play the game, right?

• 1:28:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  So it's not about being this, uh, you know, prim and proper. It's, it's about doing what you need to do at that moment. And, uh, yeah, I think that's, that's part of it, man.

• 1:28:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And I mean, this, this certainly, as you remember, um, you know, in tasking a bruiser, I was like, hey, when you leave, I didn't care what you look like on Shark Base, which became Camp Markley. I didn't care if you wore flip flops, a freaking pair of surf shorts and a Metallica t-shirt when it's just seals. But when you left the base and you went to the chow hall or you went to work with one of the battalions, you, you gotta be in a freaking squared away uniform. And a squared away uniform for us is like the bare minimum for the Army or the Marine Corps. Like they are more squared away than us with their uniforms. But at least you're going to be in a proper military uniform.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, I'm not sure if I mentioned this last time I was on, but um, I worked with the guy. He was the CMC, maybe of the group at that time, and he came out to visit us in Ramadi. I worked with him later at Bud's and he was taken back like he remembered it vividly. When he came to visit us, he's like, you know what really impressed me was you guys were so squared away looking when I arrived. Right. So like, that's what you're trying to do. You're trying to, you know, send these signals to your chain, chain of command leadership that you're squared away. You can follow directives and you can be reliable and trustworthy. And, and what does that cost you? It costs you nothing to look squared away.

• 1:30:12Jocko Willink?

  Just being professional and people are judgmental. And look, what's this, what's the saying where you put it in this thing, but uh, uh, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. Look, a military human who's been wearing a uniform, if it's a, if it's a master chief or a command sergeant major or a battalion commander. Like they've been in the military for 20 years. If they, they cannot help looking at someone and judging them based on how they look and how squared away their uniform is. Or how shitty their uniform is. So you freaking square your shit away and they go, oh, cool. These guys are at least, you know, the professional unit. So totally important. Um, and you know, there's this old document floating around.

• 1:30:55Jocko Willink?

  It's Huck Harbor's 69 steps to frogman perfection.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 1:31:00Jocko Willink?

  And I'm definitely, some of these are, some of these are from that. I gotta give the, the shout out to that. One of them was, don't get mad, get a degree. And look, what, what it's basically saying is when you're in the military, the military is going to take a lot from you. You know what I mean? Like you're gonna, you're gonna sacrifice for the military and don't get mad about that. The military has programs where you can go to college, where you can get a degree, where you can get housing allowances. Like there's all these things that the military can do, but you're gonna have to take advantage of them. So don't get pissed off at the military. Just figure out how to take advantage of it. But what I like about that is you can apply that to anything. You can apply that to anything. Like you can get mad about stuff or you can figure out how to utilize it.

• 1:31:42Jocko Willink?

  Stay with your swim buddy, of course. And what's, you know, this is, this is such an important foundation of the SEAL teams is you always have a swim buddy. And the reason you always have a swim buddy, and I think it's more prominent because in, in the army, they have battle buddies. They, there's, there's similar ideas in other, in the rest of the military. But in the SEAL teams, because we're in the water, and the water is such a high-risk environment, you have to have a swim buddy. You have to have a swim buddy. And so we get that,

• 1:32:24Jocko Willink?

  you know, pushed onto our brains while, while we're going through basic SEAL training. And part of the embedded portion of that is that you, your buddy comes first. Like your, your buddy comes first. This is like cover and move, which is one of the things that you mentioned, is I am going to take care of my friend. And, you know, it's funny because we always used to talk about like, it would be, I would much rather get shot in the kill house by one of my friends than shoot one of my friends. Like not even, not even a question. And so the fact that that's, that's one of these things, like you always put your, your buddy first.

• 1:33:05Jocko Willink?

  You put your squad, your fire team first. You put your squad first. You put your platoon first. You put the team first. All of that comes before you. So that's part of it. The other part of it is there's this thing

• 1:33:17Jocko Willink?

  with communications and your cryptological gear. And it's, the old safes that we used to have had two combinations on them, which meant that you needed two people to open the safe. TPI. TPI, two-person integrity. Here's what's kind of cool about that is if I'm about to do some knucklehead shit, Bob. Like two person integrity for me to be like, hey, this seems like I think I've got a good idea. You know, and if you, if I do it solo, cool. I have no two person integrity, but to have at least someone that goes, hey, hey, Nako.

• 1:33:57Jocko Willink?

  Are you sure about this? Or like, maybe the consequences of what you're thinking might not be worth the effort here. So I, I think that's another important component and it doesn't always save us in the SEAL teams. Cause sometimes like, hey, Bob, I got a great idea and you go, that sounds great to me. But oftentimes it's like, hey, I think I got a good idea. It's like, well, we, we might want to rethink that before we roll on it. So stick with your swim buddy. Uh, here's another one from Hawk Harbor. A miserable day in the teams is better than the best day of the office. Or maybe that one's not, maybe that one's mine, but there's something similar to that. And again, this is just framing up life, right? Worst case scenario, you're at the team and there is an inspection.

• 1:34:44Jocko Willink?

  And you gotta put your uniform on for 40 minutes while there's an inspection. It's like, and team guys will bitch about that stuff too. Are you kidding me? What the hell? Like what kind of tyrannical rear echelon bullshit is this? And it's like, bro, you, you, you haven't even been to work in three days.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  Well, if the guys aren't complaining, then I start worrying.

• 1:35:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:09Jocko Willink?

  Another one from Hawk Harbor, breaking contact does not surrender. Good thing to remember. Breaking contact is not surrender. Just because you disengage from a fight doesn't mean you're surrendering. It just means you're disengaging from that particular fight at that particular moment. So there's times where the prudent move is to back down. There's times when the prudent move is to leave.

• 1:35:35Jocko Willink?

  I know even, even we got ambushed a few times my first deployment to Iraq and you know, their temptation would always be like, stop, go back and assault. But it's like, oh, we, we're okay. We, they, they fired two RPGs and they missed with both. And they fired a bunch of machine gun rounds at us and now we're gonna, like, we made it through unscathed. The temptation is like, oh, AC 130 can see him. Okay, cool. Let's turn around and go back and get him. And we never did. It was always tempting. We always had another mission that we were going on, but it was always very tempting. But just thinking like, huh, you know what? Think we'll be all right.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  This is their terrain too, and you don't know what IDs lurk in front of you.

• 1:36:17Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:36:19Jocko Willink?

  Uh.

• 1:36:21Jocko Willink?

  Have a plan. Isn't it interesting? Seems so obvious. Have a plan. Like, oh, yeah. But I'll tell you where this would come into play with me when guys would be getting out at the 10 year mark or the eight year mark or the 12 year mark. And I'd be like, oh, cool. What's your plan?

• 1:36:37Jocko Willink?

  And they'd kind of give me the tilted head look. Cause they didn't have a plan. Well, how are you going to pay your rent in three months? You know, like, how are you going to pay your car payment? By the way, I saw you just pull up in your new freaking Super Duty Harley Davidson version, uh, F 350 that you paid $88,000 for. Well, you didn't pay at all because you only put in $4,000 down payment. So your car payment's like 1,100 bucks a month. How are you going to pay for that? So what is your plan? And as much time as we spend in the SEAL Teams planning for us to roll out and do execute things with no plan whatsoever. And look, it's cool. You can do this with your kids. Like, here's the plan. Here's what we're doing.

• 1:37:21Jocko Willink?

  And having a plan will keep you out of trouble. Having a plan will keep you efficient. Having a plan will make everything better in your life. Now you gotta be able to react, be able to react when things don't go as planned, but have a baseline.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  With some reasonable contingencies.

• 1:37:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, with a couple contingencies. Just in case this, just in case that, we're covered. And right along with that is another good one. Plan your dive and dive your plan. So you come up with a plan. This comes from diving. You know, you come up with a plan. Bob and I are swim buddies here. We're going to dive this through that, do that. And then when we get underwater, it's like, well, actually, I think I'm in a different spot. So I'm going to do something radically different and everything goes to shit. So as much as possible, plan your dive and try and stick to it. You can't always stick to it. Cause this is contrary to like, oh, uh, the plan goes out the window at the first contact. Look, there's, that's, that's a little bit of, that's an exaggeration, right?

• 1:38:20Jocko Willink?

  And can that happen? Yes, that can happen, but it really shouldn't happen. Your plan should be good enough that, oh yeah, we get contacted. Look, our standard operating procedures are coming into play and we'll execute an immediate action drill. Occasionally your plan goes out the window. Occasionally, it should be rare that your plan goes completely out the window. Now, listen, if you've planned a hyper detailed plan and you think everything's going to go according to this hyper detailed plan, that ain't going to work. That ain't going to work. But if you have a plan, a good plan, a solid plan, a plan that is flexible, then you, you shouldn't have to abandon your plan just because something didn't go as expected. So plan your dive, dive your plan. Occasionally, do you got it very

• 1:39:03Jocko Willink?

  drastically? Yes, occasionally you do. And don't cling to your plan if it's not working. That's a leadership thing where it's like, no, we're going to keep doing, stick to the plan, stick to the plan. It's like, oh, the plan is not working. If the plan is not working, stop it. But don't abandon your plan too easily.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  Again, if you have, you know, reasonable contingencies along the five stages of the operation there, you know, there, there's little checkpoints you're hitting that if this happens, we're doing this. If this happens, we're doing that. So yeah, no reason, you shouldn't be abandoning your plan unless it's completely gone to shit.

• 1:39:37Jocko Willink?

  Here's like one of the most pragmatic things I have on this list. Bring a beanie and a Gore-Tex jacket. Like, I'm telling you what, bring a beanie, bring a wool beanie and a Gore-Tex jacket. I don't care. You know, you're going out for a three hour operation. And, and there's a couple of different types of Gore-Tex jackets, but you know, I'm talking about a shell. And you got like a heavy duty one and you got a lightweight one. And look, sometimes the lightweight one, like you're going out for three hours. It's, it's pretty moderate temperatures. Cool. No big deal. Bring the lightweight one. But if there's a chance you might be wet, if there's a chance, bring that heavy, nice freaking badass Gore-Tex jacket.

• 1:40:17Jocko Willink?

  Cause when you get stuck on Saint Nicholas Island for 19 hours, waiting for the mark fives to come and recover you. And you have no possible way of staying warm, you're gonna freaking hate your life and possibly get hypothermic. So God, those, those were the best jackets, the old school, uh, extreme wet, cold weather. Gore-Tex jackets, they're standard military issue. They were freaking heavy duty. You could put that thing on in the worst weather and, and be like, pretty okay. And in those jackets, they had this big Velcro, uh, pocket on, on the left and right side. So where the zipper is, you didn't have to undo the zipper, but you could just rip this big Velcro thing.

• 1:41:02Jocko Willink?

  Inside that thing, I had a wool beanie. I always had those things with me. Uh, now look, did I have them in Ramadi was 120 degrees? Nope. That was the one, you know, AO. But if it's not a, if it's not over a hundred degrees, I'm going to say that maybe 90. If it's not a, cause I'll tell you what, go to, go to our desert training facility.

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  I have a story in mind. Yeah.

• 1:41:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah. You'll freeze your nuts off. Go ahead.

• 1:41:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I, I had never gone until my, uh, fifth pump out there. I'd never been out there when it wasn't the summer.

• 1:41:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  And so I did, I did a, you know, a workup, uh, out there. And I think we went in December and I'd never experienced rain or cold. And we did, we did a, a training op, uh, where it was like, you know, one platoon's, uh, doing a keel in a village or something. And the other platoon is, uh, basically holding, uh,

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  You know, uh, our security, if you will, external security on the mountains there. And it was supposed to be just a short iteration, like an hour and they, it was one of those, uh, you know, trick fuckery events where it was a remain overnight.

• 1:42:13Jocko Willink?

  Jack.

• 1:42:14Speaker 01

  And it rained and I,

• 1:42:16Jocko Willink?

  Jack.

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  Our platoon Charlie, or sorry, uh, was it, uh, no, it was Bravo, uh, were stuck on the mountain all night.

• 1:42:23Jocko Willink?

  Get some.

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  Getting pissed on. And that was one of the coldest moments I'd had since Bud's. I was there with my OIC and we were just jackhammering and just regretting not having a beanie and, uh, some Gore-Tex.

• 1:42:35Jocko Willink?

  God, being in a Gore-Tex was go a long way. It's kind of like in Southern California. Bring a hoodie. You know what I'm saying? Bring a hoodie. Now, look, I've been trying to explain this to my wife and I have no idea how it's not landed yet. But, you know, we'll be going out at two o'clock in the afternoon. Two o'clock in the afternoon, bro. It's in San Diego. No, it's, it's 70, 75. It's sunny. It's a little bit hot. You might want to take your shirt off. Like, you know, you're good. And then you fast forward, the sun goes down. Bro, all of a sudden it's 48 degrees. It's cold. You have a hoodie. It's no factor. It's actually meant for a hoodie. Southern California is meant for a hoodie. They made hoodies for Southern California for that very reason.

• 1:43:19Jocko Willink?

  So you know, no factor. And I look at my wife, what's she doing? She's jackhammering. Now I gotta give her my hoodie. So I've surrendered, trying to convince her. I put a extra hoodie in the vehicle for,

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  Two is one, one is not.

• 1:43:32Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Because I'm sick of giving it up and being like, cool, I'll just freeze. I told, I literally looked right at you and said, bring a hoodie. And you said, it's nice out. Bro, it ain't that nice out. That's, that's the bottom line. So bring a beanie and bring a Gore-Tex jacket. That's, that's my advice to you. Um, and then the last one I got, I think we, we talked about this a little bit already, but train and maintain your body and mind. And you know, the Hawk Harbor thing says something like train your body and mind. And in the SEAL teams, uh, and I think in life, we generally tend to get too focused on one or too focused on the other.

• 1:44:11Jocko Willink?

  We either spend all of our time training the physical, physicality of it. And in SEAL teams, like so much is based on your physicality that you, people don't, people ignore, hey, the knowledge.

• 1:44:25Jocko Willink?

  And then I think in the civilian sector, a lot of times it gets focused so much on knowledge that people forget about the physicality. And so I think it's important to to train and maintain both. And what we're learning now too is in order to maintain, especially your brain, in order to maintain your brain, you've got to, you've got to introduce new things to your brain. You know, you've got to introduce new things to your brain. Otherwise it gets going to get stagnant. So learning new skills, uh, learning new languages, learning new instruments, just learning things is beneficial. And you have to look, sometimes you say you're, you're not that interested in something. Or you can't find something cool.

• 1:45:09Jocko Willink?

  You just have to find something that you're interested in. You've got to try and learn it as, as silly as that might sound. And then what we've already talked about physically, you've got to keep moving. You've got to keep moving. So otherwise you're going to lose it. That's what I got. You're, you're, you're kind of a learner, Echo Charles.

• 1:45:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes, I believe.

• 1:45:27Jocko Willink?

  You know, you're like, you know, you get these things. I mean, they're all kind of computer, uh, uh, centric, generally speaking. Oh, is there's things that aren't?

• 1:45:35Speaker 02

  Generally speaking.

• 1:45:36Jocko Willink?

  Have you started playing ukulele for real yet? Cause you asked me about it like a year ago.

• 1:45:39Speaker 02

  Dabbling.

• 1:45:41Jocko Willink?

  Are you dabbling currently?

• 1:45:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:45:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:45:46Speaker 02

  Do you have it here?

• 1:45:46Jocko Willink?

  Can you play a song?

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  I do not have it here and I cannot play, play a song.

• 1:45:49Jocko Willink?

  Bro, there's songs that have one chord.

• 1:45:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, then I can play a song then.

• 1:45:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:45:53Speaker 02

  Uh, what if I? In principle, yeah.

• 1:45:55Jocko Willink?

  So you, so you're not, you're not playing?

• 1:45:57Speaker 02

  No, dabbling. I'd say dabbling is, uh, accurate.

• 1:46:01Jocko Willink?

  Bro, let's, let's just get you a song down.

• 1:46:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:04Jocko Willink?

  It's freaking, the ukulele is best.

• 1:46:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:06Jocko Willink?

  But you, you spend more of your time learning about the computer uh, techniques, tactics, techniques and procedures.

• 1:46:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:12Jocko Willink?

  What'd you say?

• 1:46:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yesterday, that was a good one.

• 1:46:15Jocko Willink?

  Now, what was interesting about that, there was a couple of things that I noticed about that. What, what program was that?

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  I forget, I forget the program. There's a few of them, but you might be familiar with this where it's like you get a picture.

• 1:46:26Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:46:27Speaker 02

  And then you use these new AI tools and it'll start animating the picture into a video, whatever you tell it to do. Like Adobe Firefly, maybe? There's a bunch. Familiar, yeah, but, but yeah, you, I mean, we've seen it before, you know, um, well, I have seen many of them. So, yeah, I looked into that and yeah, it's pretty, it's fun. It's not there yet.

• 1:46:47Jocko Willink?

  What surprised me about it was as the angle changed, you got to see things that were behind me in the actual photo that you couldn't see at all in the picture, but it, it made things up to go there.

• 1:47:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:47:01Jocko Willink?

  Well, actually freaking impressive.

• 1:47:02Speaker 02

  It grabs elements and is like, oh, there's a tree back there. And was there, is that a, this is, you know, I'm the AI talking, yeah. Was there another tree? I see a road, I see a brick wall. And then, so it zooms out and pans up and whatever. And then, yeah, it'll recreate this whole environment. Yeah, it's very interesting, but with that, it just says, since it only can see a face at one angle. You know, there's a. Gets weird, you get this shadow, you know, weird shifty face thing going on. Turn into a different person is what it'll happen, what'll happen. So even with you, actually oddly, okay, so there's this classic photo with Jocko, like with his gun or whatever. And he's all angry or whatever. And there's a brick wall behind. He was happy in that one, but yeah, but, um, and it's like, uh, it's not black and white.

• 1:47:47Speaker 02

  It's like, uh, what do you call, there's a name for sepia or sepia or something, right? Like one of, like a worm. Anyway, so he's standing against this wall with a gun, more like someone's like, hey, lot of chocolate, let's take a picture.

• 1:47:57Jocko Willink?

  And I was actually in, it's in the, take, the picture's taken in the streets of Ramadi. So it's not like I was out there freaking coking and joking, bro.

• 1:48:04Speaker 02

  No, he was very unhappy to be taking that picture, apparently. It's what it looked like on the picture. But Leif was always smiling in the same pics.

• 1:48:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:10Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah, well, this might have been Jocko smiling, but either way, they look the same, in my opinion. So I, I took that one and made a video into, actually made a bunch of them, but the one, the one I showed you was like one of the first ones, whatever. And then, so I was like, okay, make Jocko start laughing. And then something else, right? And then so he's standing there all mad, then he just starts laughing all crazy. But he turned into a different person a little bit. Actually, I'll show it to you after this. I have it in my phone. But yeah, it's that's one of those things where, you know, when you see that done, you're kind of like, oh, this is gonna like take over a bunch of stuff. And I with this particular one, I was like, I don't see it. I don't see how it'll take over anything really. I mean, when the novelty wears off,

• 1:48:54Speaker 02

  it won't really because like an old, this is what they, what they kind of introduced when they introduced it, it was a lot of like old photos. Let's say if your great grandparents, right? The black and white, whatever. And they start animating them or these old, you know? And then after the novelty wears off, you're kind of like, wait a second, they didn't really do that. This is a computer recreation of something that didn't happen at all. So it's kind of like, okay, it's fun, it's cute, but no one's gonna really, you know, attribute that much value to it. At the end of the day, that was my hypothesis.

• 1:49:22Jocko Willink?

  But it but it there, there are obviously some seriously beneficial things that you could do or productive things because you could make a scene. You know, if if you were to make a movie and you needed to show something that you didn't that didn't happen or that you didn't have the budget to put in the movie, then you could animate it.

• 1:49:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, fully. And and yeah, there are there are certain applications, but I didn't see that as fulfilling that lack of for lack of a better term, the hype that was behind it at the time.

• 1:49:55Jocko Willink?

  I saw a movie that was completely generated by like AI and it looked pretty freaking good. It was like a, it was like a three minute or maybe like a two minute movie. Yeah, I think it was made by Unreal Engine.

• 1:50:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, unreal.

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  But that's it was a car scene. It was like shootout, I think, but it looked freaking great.

• 1:50:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I I don't know that Unreal Engine generates AI stuff.

• 1:50:17Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, maybe it wasn't.

• 1:50:19Speaker 02

  But

• 1:50:19Jocko Willink?

  I don't freaking know. I'm not.

• 1:50:21Speaker 02

  Yes, that's obvious. I demonstrated that, but. No, no, but I'm saying that's what I thought at the time. And then when I see like little, I saw little things where I was like, oh, I see where they could go with it. Remember Forrest Gump?

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:33Speaker 02

  Okay. Remember the recreated scenes of like JFK and all that stuff? And if you watch it now, you're like, oh, that's not real or whatever. But the AI, the AI stuff now, they could have done that. With the, with that scene and it would have looked way better. You gotta kind of tweak it and stuff, but who would have? So there's little specific applications. Now my mind has changed is what I'm saying. So that's why I went in there. I was like, probably gotta get to know this stuff because I could do some cool stuff. Small stuff. I'm not gonna make a whole movie. I don't think, but.

• 1:50:58Speaker 01

  The more pictures, the more information you give it, the better it's gonna be.

• 1:51:01Speaker 02

  That's a different thing. Yes. But that's another AI thing. That's like, you know, if you're doing a deep fake or so, you know, something along those lines. But this one is literally to be like, hey, this photo right here, since it's a special photo, very unique, like once, literally one frame out of existence. Do something with it. Make it into like a fun movie or whatever. And so, yeah, I'm kind of convinced a little bit more now that it's gonna have, there's gonna be some value there.

• 1:51:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's definitely helping us on the marketing side. I mean, just coming up with marketing materials and backgrounds and stuff like that. It's, uh, it's gonna be interesting to see where it is in a couple of years.

• 1:51:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, fully. Yep. But yes, I'm a learner. Yeah, sure.

• 1:51:38Jocko Willink?

  So that's what you've been learning?

• 1:51:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, a few things. Other, other stuff as well.

• 1:51:43Jocko Willink?

  I feel like when I sit down to try stuff like that, like I don't have enough contextual knowledge that I'm just like, well, you know, it's like trying to learn jujitsu. You're like, looking at it and you're like, you know, this is an umaplada and you just go, dude, what, what is happening?

• 1:52:00Speaker 02

  Right. You're like that. You're, you're more right than you know. And then I know I say that sometimes joking, but that applies to kind of anything. So if, if it's like, hey, I wanna, um, let's say, hey, you're, you know, say either move it or lose it kind of a thing. So if it's like, hey, I'm gonna do jujitsu, right? I'm gonna start jujitsu. I'm 40 years old or whatever, but I'm way out of shape where it's like. That at the end of the day, that that doesn't matter as much as you might think, but it does matter. If you kept staying, if you kept in shape and stuff like that, go to jump into jiu jitsu, no problem. It's way easier, see what I'm saying? So yeah, you could, Jocko, maybe not Jocko, Lee Bob, you could open up Adobe After Effects, we'll say. Have you, you know what After Effects is?

• 1:52:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've, I've, I've been in there and I've, I've done a lot of these things again, like what I was sitting on earlier. Uh, wearing a lot of hats, being a small team, man, like you, you gotta figure shit out. So I've, yeah, a lot of these technologies, like a illustrator.

• 1:52:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  I taught myself how to design an illustrator.

• 1:52:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so I'm pretty impressed with your shirt designs too, like.

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  Thanks, man. I appreciate it.

• 1:52:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like the fact, well, the first time you told me that you designed them, I was like, oh, and you, you only had a couple at the time. But now that I've seen like the full, the full spectrum of Hooley golf shirts, including the one you're wearing right now. But they, like, you obviously have figured out how to do it really well because you got kick ass designs. They all look cool. Yeah, it's dope.

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  No, thanks, man. And, and just to be clear there, uh, we have a designer as well, so I, I haven't done all the designs. This was, uh, this pattern was done by someone else, but yeah, it's a, it's creating repeatable patterns, which is a whole technique in and of itself. But, um, you know, I mean, kind of circling back to what we're talking about earlier is, uh, early on in Hooley, we were trying to come up with these kick ass designs. And it started, you know, I had these concepts and working with a designer, it was taking a really long time to get from, here's the idea. You give me first draft, back and forth, we're taking really long.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  And so I was like, why don't I just learn this damn program because then you can give me something, I can make a couple tweaks on my own and we're just good. You know, so we turned something that took like five months to like two weeks.

• 1:54:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm laughing because I've had to design things in the past years and I send like the most rudimentary freaking sketches to Echo. And then he makes them.

• 1:54:14Speaker 02

  But it translates, it translates. But see like. Okay, we'll take Illustrator, for example. You know how to use Illustrator, just we'll say for the fundamentals of Illustrator.

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  I'm good now.

• 1:54:25Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, good. You're good at Illustrator. So now if you open like Photoshop, you're gonna be like, oh, I can use Photoshop. And you're hitting the ground running. As opposed to Jako, he's gonna be like, he's gonna open Photoshop and be like, this is literally a different language to me. So it's like, what am I gonna spend all this time just learning what I'm looking at? That's a whole, like, that's not even one process. That's a bunch of processes, you know what I'm saying? But then now you go, okay, I can use this Photoshop. It's pretty good. Now you can open like advanced stuff. Like After Effects or something, and you're like, okay, this is hard, but I can see how hard it is. Versus Jako's gonna, everything's just gonna look like a different language, you see what I'm saying? So you can't really learn as much.

• 1:54:59Jocko Willink?

  That is how it looks to me.

• 1:55:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:01Jocko Willink?

  Like, I don't comprehend this at all. Zero comprehension.

• 1:55:05Speaker 02

  That's how it looks for most people. So like, think about, uh, code. You ever watched, or you ever see like code written out?

• 1:55:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:11Speaker 02

  Like computer code? Okay, so.

• 1:55:16Speaker 02

  HTML, you know what HTML is?

• 1:55:18Jocko Willink?

  I, I.

• 1:55:19Speaker 02

  It's called the hyper, yeah, it's called HTML. It's not even considered code. That's how like basic it is, right?

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  No one knows what it actually stands for, just.

• 1:55:27Speaker 02

  Hypertext markup language. But, but there's HTML, then there's like JavaScript, and there's like C sharp, and there's like, then there's like Python, there's all these different codes, and they have different levels of it that. You look at any code, it's all code. But certain people, if they know the basic code, they're gonna be like, okay, I know what this code, they're just gonna have a platform to kind of stand on. You see what I'm saying? To learn that next thing. And if you don't, bro, you're kind of lost.

• 1:55:52Jocko Willink?

  I got a, a company that I'm involved with called Blackbox.

• 1:55:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:56Jocko Willink?

  Blackbox.ai. It's amazing because it is taking English and turning it into code. So, uh, you can literally make a program just by telling it what kind of program you want. It will code for you. And we got some stuff, I'm, I'm, I want to do something where I just make, to show people how easy it is, because it goes from what you just talked about, where I look at Photoshop or whatever you said, AI, Adobe Illustrator. And it's, it's completely foreign to me, but Blackbox AI, I look at it and there's just a prompt box. And you can start to communicate in English, which I'm very familiar with.

• 1:56:41Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:56:42Jocko Willink?

  To get it to begin to perform. And execute the writing of code, which I don't know anything. I don't even know what HTML stands for. And yet I have this thing, programming things for me. It's pretty amazing. Yeah.

• 1:56:58Speaker 01

  This is a, so I use chat GPT in a similar fashion and it's, it's getting better like each, each and every month, but it's another tool, like you can ask it to do that and it'll get you to a certain level.

• 1:57:12Jocko Willink?

  If you use Blackbox, it's better because Blackbox is strictly for coding. Yeah. And they, so if you take all the, if you take all the resources that chat GPT takes and you know, they put it towards uh, understanding books and understanding, you know, podcasts, there's everything. But what Blackbox does is it's just code. So it just studies code and reinforces code and checks code over and over and over again. So when you put stuff in there, it's, it's infinitely more accurate than what the other AI program, programs are doing. So yeah, it's pretty sick. It's pretty sick to see.

• 1:57:56Jocko Willink?

  And, and like, since I get to see the numbers behind the scenes and like percentage of accuracy, it's incredible. Yeah. It's incredible. It is better than human. You know what I mean? And I'm not just talking about Jocko human knuckle dragger. I'm talking hu- a human that codes for a living. This thing, these, they don't make mistakes, you know, it's like that accurate. And the fact that it just checks and rechecks itself. It's, it, the world's changing. Yeah.

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how it involves, right? Because uh, and not talking about this in particular, but just AI, uh, the way it's moving, I mean, has the potential to like, like copywriters, people who do, you know, emails and these other things, like you can just press a button now. So you know, how that is going to evolve, is that going to, you know, eliminate some sort of industries uh, or?

• 1:58:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh, there's definitely going to be industries that are being eliminated. And the interesting thing is, is what's going to be taken away is the creativeness, right? The creative and the, it's going to be interesting. I was, I was telling a story about um, You know, the White Stripes, the band?

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:59:02Jocko Willink?

  So Jack White. So he's got this thing where, you know, he, he explains how they make pop music and the way that they make pop music. For instance, and the way he explains it is they take a snare drum and they'll like hit the snare drum a hundred times and they'll look at the computer, uh, you know, sound dynamics of, of all of them. And they pick the one that is most perfect. And they take that, that one snare hit. And that's the one they use for every hit on the snare in a song. And they do the same thing with a cymbal and they do the same thing with the hi hat. And they do the same thing with the guitar and the piano and everything else. So everything is perfect.

• 1:59:42Jocko Willink?

  And so when you hear it, a human being can tell that there's something soulless about this music. Now, look, that music is popular. This is like all the popular music that Katy Perry and, uh, whoever, like the popular pop music is all computer perfected. And that's why we listen to the White Stripes and he's like, oh yeah, we recorded our second album in this, in the stairwell of my rented, you know, townhouse. And we put mics in the different rooms and, and that's why you can hear that there's mistakes.

• 2:00:17Speaker 01

  Depth.

• 2:00:18Jocko Willink?

  There's depth and there's soul to it. So when, when you start talking about writing, okay, so we can have, there's going to be things that are so, you know, it's like, um, you know, you can get a diamond. You know, they can tell like a fake diamond versus a real diamond. A fake diamond has no flaws.

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  Too perfect.

• 2:00:36Jocko Willink?

  It's too perfect and a real diamond has like, doesn't matter how perfect you get. A 10 out of 10 as a real diamond, you can still go, oh yeah, there's a little, little something wrong there. And guess what has more value? The one that's real. And so I think there's going to be some. Uh, some sort of gap between those two, between like a perfectly written piece that was written just to land so perfect with you, Bob, the consumer. This email is going to go out to you and it's going to sound so perfect and you're going to be like, you know, it's this thing, you know, you know, something in the back. You might not even think that consciously, but subconsciously you're like, oh, cool. I'm getting, this is the algorithm coming at me. Whereas something that has a human element of like,

• 2:01:18Jocko Willink?

  whether it's humor or irony or drama that, that, that a computer, now look, is it going to be able to create it eventually? Can you say like, hey, put, make this funny, make this shocking. Have you seen that thing that's talking about Tulsi Gabbard? Uh, it's, it's, it's Grok, like angry Grok or something like that. And it's like, Tulsi Gabbard don't give a shit. She'll fucking tell people what's what. Like, you're like, oh, it sounds like what a human would say. So maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they'll be able to overcome and maybe you say, oh yeah, make the snare drum human and add the variations that are needed. So I just talked myself out of my, my, my theory.

• 2:01:58Speaker 02

  No, no, no. You're both, you're both of your little theories put together is one unified theory. Okay. Yeah, that is correct.

• 2:02:05Speaker 01

  Artificial general intelligence, that's, that's the one that like the AI becomes self-learning to the point to where it's like, very, very human. That's I think what a lot of folks are a little concerned about.

• 2:02:18Speaker 02

  Like, so even with graphics and video, especially computer generated video, you run into that problem too, where things are too, like, if you want to do digital camera movement, right? If you want to do a, let's say a pan or a wind pan or something, it'll just go, it's too computerized, right? So it doesn't look like someone was holding that. So after, after a certain amount of time, whatever people invented a thing or whoever does these, uh, does the code for the, for the program, they have a thing called easy ease. So it's easy ease in and out. So it just goes, basically it's an acceleration, right? Instead of it kind of accelerates into it, right? But even that's too smooth. Just like how you're saying, where it's like, sure, the computer can try to fake it, you know, but you still like, a person is so imperfect, even to the smallest thing.

• 2:03:03Speaker 02

  And with some stuff, not everything, with some stuff, people can just tell, you know, like the, they need that imperfection to for it to be convincing. And it's such, it's on such a micro level that if it's not there, or if even if that's replicated, but you can sort of feel it. Some things more than others. So after a while, they added a feature called camera shake. So it like, it feels, but even that, if you get really used to it, if you're really used to the camera shake, no matter how much you adjust it, you're like, that's not the same.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  Too much of a pattern.

• 2:03:33Speaker 02

  But too much of a pattern.

• 2:03:34Jocko Willink?

  But they can get there.

• 2:03:35Speaker 02

  Yes. So this is what they do.

• 2:03:37Jocko Willink?

  Randomized camera shake or something.

• 2:03:39Speaker 02

  But even the randomized, it's like, I don't think a human hand camera shake is really randomized at the end of the day. I think it's based on something, something nature, you know? And we're in touch with that on a level that maybe might not, might go beyond just our consciousness. So this is what they do with the camera shake. They'll take little presets, and this is how they're made. Let's say Lee Bob has a camera, he films a black wall with a white square on it, or a white X. He'll just film it with his hand. That's a real camera shake. Now they'll take that footage and base the camera shake in the program on Lee Bob's actual camera shake, pixel by pixel, same thing. Then you can get these camera shake elements and presets.

• 2:04:18Speaker 01

  And then you get millions of those inputs, and then it's truly like, you know?

• 2:04:22Speaker 02

  It starts to be, yeah. It starts to be, but I feel like, I don't know, but there's certain things where it's really, I don't know, they'd have to go so deep. And after a certain amount of time, maybe, but I don't know. I don't know. I mean, at the end of the, you know, it becomes this big argument, like, what if right now we're living in a simulation? And it's based on that idea, where it was like, yeah, there was just computers and people, but the computers were like, hey, we're too computery. We gotta be more like people. Oh, that's not quite as convincing. Let's, you know, let's refine that into this imperfect thing. And then after a while, it's like, and here we are. Same thing.

• 2:04:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a, another thing, there's some spark, right? There's some spark of creativity that comes into the world. And, you know, my, one of the ways that I explain this to people is, you may or may not be able to produce a spark. And if you go down to Guitar Center, where they sell guitars, and you hang up a sign that says, I need a guitarist that can play the following albums. And you can name the most complex, complicated albums, Rush, Led Zeppelin, just, just name them all. And, and you'll get

• 2:05:33Jocko Willink?

  Probably five people from every guitar center in America that will say legitimately, yes, I can play all those. And yet, when you call them, you're like, what do you do for a living? And they're like, oh, I, you know, I work at, you know, Olive Garden or whatever, like I'm a waiter or I'm a, and even though they're so skilled at the technical aspect of playing guitar, they don't have whatever little thing it is that allows them to create music. Now you take like Kurt Cobain, who was, I mean, obviously a skilled guitarist, but he wasn't like some technical genius,

• 2:06:14Jocko Willink?

  or he wasn't a technical, uh, expert at guitar. He was a very good guitarist, but he wasn't better than a guy at Guitar Center that can play every Rush song. And so, and yet, he could go, dan dan, and he had that little spark of creativity and all, you know, he made music. So there is some, and, and I don't know, this is, I don't know if we can have a computer where with all the millions of inputs that you just talked about, Bob, like billions of inputs that I get, can it create something totally unique that has the actual spark of creativity? It's possible, but...

• 2:06:57Speaker 01

  What's to distinguish, right? Like if, uh, the AGI comes to fruition of it developing like a human mind? You know, I mean, like we all developed from, from babies to where we are now with the, it's a collection of experiences and trial and errors, you know?

• 2:07:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess it feels like you'd have to consider why it would need to be like a human mind? Because human mind is like, and I was talking to Dr. Luke about this.

• 2:07:24Speaker 02

  Like, why would a computer wanna do whatever it wants to do, right? It's like, okay, you answer that question. And it's like, why does a person wanna do what a person wants to do? So it was like, okay, so if I can get a little bit crass here. So let's say there's a group of guys, right? And they're in a room and they're trying to, I don't know, they're building, I don't know, some tables or something. And a girl walks in. Now they're there to build the table, but a girl walks in. Some guys are married, some guys are not. Those guys' attention goes to that girl. And so their motivation in being there changes in a lot of ways. So it's sexual motivation. And it's for a bunch of different reasons. So and then those reasons are linked to a bunch of other stuff, right?

• 2:08:07Speaker 02

  And that's a fundamental like roots of being a human, some of them. Now, why would a computer replicate that? Or how would it? You see what I'm saying? Like, can a computer get jealous, you know? You'd kind of have to program that in, you know, can a computer like? Get distracted in a sexual way, you know? Because that's kind of part of our being a little bit, see what I'm saying?

• 2:08:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and not to mention like hunger and ego and jealousy and anger and all those like. You're gonna write some good rock and roll songs when you're angry, right? You're gonna write some good blues songs when you get dumped, right? Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, so paint some good, uh, some good paintings when you're distressed about something.

• 2:08:56Speaker 02

  Right. And when you think about it, computers always have like this mission, right? This computer is there to do something, you know? Even if you say, hey, free associate as a computer, the computer would be like, okay, that's my new mission, free association, right?

• 2:09:12Speaker 02

  People will have our mission, hell, yeah, no matter how focused and concentrated. We are on this mission, we can still get distracted in principle, you know? We can get distracted, we can get, uh, like all these things can make us deviate from the mission.

• 2:09:26Jocko Willink?

  And not to mention, you can get distracted from nothing but what's inside your own head.

• 2:09:31Speaker 02

  And that becomes in and of itself a thing, you see what I'm saying? So it's like this, it's almost like there's two different systems running. No matter how advanced the AI gets, it's like, it's almost like something has to be in there to kind of direct it. The same way a person is.

• 2:09:46Speaker 01

  They start merging, you know, sentience with biologics, then maybe that gap is closed down.

• 2:09:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, but even that's a different thing, you know? I don't even think that would be considered general, whatever, intelligence.

• 2:10:00Jocko Willink?

  I often compare it to life because, you know, we know what chemicals and molecules and atoms are inside of like an amoeba.

• 2:10:12Jocko Willink?

  But we can't make one. We can't make one come to life. Like, we don't have, we can put all the stir it together, mix it all up, but it don't turn into an amoeba, which is the simplest, you know, cell form there is. And so maybe this is one of those like, things that cannot be crossed. You can't actually ever spark that creativity in AI. But I guess we're gonna find out the coming years. We'll find out real quick, too. And, and, but, but maybe you can get real close to it. You know, you can get real close to it. Like, right now, we can, we can gross, we can graph skin cells, we can make from stem cells, we can make it grow into something, but we, there's just one line we can't cross.

• 2:10:55Speaker 02

  I feel, and then again, I don't know, we've been talking out of school for the last however long, but I will add this to the mix of ignorance that we're talking about. I feel like there is, I feel like eventually we will be able to. I feel like it's like, you know, that last thing, it's probably not just one thing. It's probably like a last little group of puzzle pieces. And it's gonna have to do with something that we're just not paying attention to right now. You know how like certain things where it's like, you put all the ingredients in and you're like, why isn't it happening? Oh, wait, I had to put in the oven for half an hour. That's the ingredient. I wasn't thinking about that. I was thinking about all the ingredients. See what I'm saying? So it's like, um, it'll be something like that, I think. I think like, it'll be like, oh, wait, maybe some time, like, like crazy amount of time, too. And then after that certain amount of time,

• 2:11:39Speaker 02

  now this, this collection of whatever chemicals has the capability to do this stuff now. Or it's time plus something, you know, something that we're just not paying attention to right now. It feels like that's gonna be the little factor.

• 2:11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, when, when we're old men, shit is gonna get weird.

• 2:11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, feels like it.

• 2:11:57Speaker 01

  Couple decades away.

• 2:11:59Speaker 02

  Well, we're keeping learning, though. So yes, yes.

• 2:12:01Jocko Willink?

  Of course. That goes learning and, and, and contemplating.

• 2:12:05Speaker 02

  Contemplating.

• 2:12:05Jocko Willink?

  Philosophizing over here.

• 2:12:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:08Jocko Willink?

  We'll get some feedback. I wonder if people want to hear the philosophization of the whole scenario. Most likely not. All right, in the meantime, uh, some good rules, you know, training, we're getting better, we're getting stronger, training our mind, training our body, gonna need fuel for that situation.

• 2:12:30Jocko Willink?

  We recommend Jocko Fuel. Hey, check it out. We got a energy drinks. What do you got over there? Pink lemonade?

• 2:12:34Speaker 02

  I do.

• 2:12:35Jocko Willink?

  Is that your go to?

• 2:12:35Speaker 02

  Uh, black cherry vanilla.

• 2:12:37Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:12:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:38Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 2:12:39Speaker 02

  Number one for me. This is number two.

• 2:12:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I'm, that's probably number two for me as well. My number one is still iced tea lemonade, which I'm on my second right now, which is kind of cool because I don't always, you know, I like to come into the podcast. I almost always, well, 99% of the time I'm drinking a go during the podcast or just before the podcast, but getting into two, it's not every time, you know, but uh, that's what we're doing. Jocko Fuel, check out jockofuel.com. We got energy drink. We got protein. We got uh, greens. We got hydration. We got, we got Cold War. You know, we got everything that you need. Joint Warfare.

• 2:13:24Speaker 02

  Some of the things that I feel like we don't draw as much attention as we could, which it has one of those hidden, something that might be interpreted as a hidden values, the magnesium, the krill oil, like that kind of, that kind of stuff. That's not like, oh, hell yeah, protein, get my, like, of course, that's freaking good, of course, but if you look into like magnesium, for example, and the benefits of that and how we're kind of like unhealthy because of lack of magnesium. Think you'd be surprised.

• 2:13:54Jocko Willink?

  Go check it out. Uh, jockofuel.com. Also check it out at Walmart, uh, Wawa, Letterman shop, GNC, Military Commissaries, Afees, Hanford, Dash Stores, Wakeford, ShopRite, HEB down in Teas, Meyer up in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris, somebody posted a Harris Teeter, like had the full display going on. Uh, Publix, Dick's Sporting Goods. Right now we got a little test scenario going. I think we're in 200 stores. So go clear the shelves at Dick's. Um, there's one right on the corner here, by the way. Publix down in Florida, which is outstanding. People have been getting into Publix too. Appreciate it. Appreciate you going into Publix and just buying. I posted the other day, before, during, after. This is jujitsu specific, but it's not just jujitsu

• 2:14:38Jocko Willink?

  specific. Driving to jujitsu, go. Get to jujitsu, have that little nice little energy, right?

• 2:14:44Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:14:45Jocko Willink?

  During jujitsu, hydrate. Good to go. Cause I'm sweating like a damn pig. During jujitsu, but just keep hydrated, get done, get home, mulk. There it is before, during and after. You're good to go. Totally good to go. So check that out. If you don't have Jocko Fuel at your gym, email J F sales at jockofuel.com. We'll get you hooked up. Also, you need clothing, originusa.com. We got hunt gear, we got jeans, we got, what rash guards? We got shorts, we got boots. Did you get the new boots yet? You didn't get them yet, did you? You're gonna like the new boots.

• 2:15:28Speaker 02

  I agree. I seen them.

• 2:15:29Jocko Willink?

  Freaking GTG. GTG. I look, do I get a little bit of a hookup?

• 2:15:34Speaker 02

  Kind of. Little bit.

• 2:15:35Jocko Willink?

  But I got a pair of blacked out ones.

• 2:15:37Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Why is that not?

• 2:15:38Jocko Willink?

  Murdered out, as they say. And well, it's because it's because it's Echelon Front, you know, it's professional organization. So you got to have some professional looking boots. I can't have a big white soul. So I got a blacked out soul from the team.

• 2:15:50Speaker 02

  Oh, you could have blacked out soul.

• 2:15:51Jocko Willink?

  And then I blacked out the threads myself with Sharpie. Good to go. No factor. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, yeah. I remember blacking stuff out the team. Blacking that thing out. So, yeah, all 100% American made, 100% American made materials. Check out originusa.com. We, we, you know, people are trying to bring manufacturing back to America right now. We brought it back.

• 2:16:16Speaker 02

  Already back.

• 2:16:16Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Check out originusa.com.

• 2:16:20Speaker 02

  That's true. More clothing, merch, if you will, Jocko Store. We got discipline equals freedom stuff, shirts, hats, hoodies. We already knew that. We got socks. We already knew that, but we are, we do have an upcoming collab. The little brand called Hooli. Yeah.

• 2:16:39Speaker 02

  Hey, look, a lot of people have been for years too, by the way, meaning Bob, we already know this. We've been talking about this for a while, but for years, literally years, people have been like, hey, I need the, hey, cool, cool shirts. Freaking sweet.

• 2:16:50Jocko Willink?

  But I have a job.

• 2:16:51Speaker 02

  I have a job. Exactly right. I got to go to work or whatever. How can I represent at work? See what I'm saying? I'm like, hey, you know, and I looked into it, then I stopped looking to, you know, back and forth as far as like solving that problem, but. Now we're gonna do a collab with Hooli and now we've got some, some collared shirts, some polos.

• 2:17:06Speaker 01

  Pumped to do it, man.

• 2:17:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that'd be solid.

• 2:17:08Jocko Willink?

  Did we decide on the design yet?

• 2:17:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, just the basic, but represent.

• 2:17:11Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:17:12Speaker 02

  Flag, X flag, death core to the core.

• 2:17:14Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 2:17:15Speaker 02

  All day.

• 2:17:16Speaker 01

  Shit, it'll be out pretty soon as well.

• 2:17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that'll be good. It's not, it's not out right now, but yes, soon, be on the lookout for that. Yeah, very good. I was impressed. I am still, I'm obviously impressed with like the fit. Cause that's like a thing. Let's face it. Like I don't wear polos that much. So when I wear one, I'm like, cool. It's a polo, like whatever.

• 2:17:34Speaker 02

  But the, like, all polos aren't created equally. Like the fit, the material, like the whole thing, just like any other T-shirt.

• 2:17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks, man. We, we put a lot of time and effort, uh, you know, launching and then iterating from there to, you know, make sure we can, you know, provide the best products possible.

• 2:17:49Jocko Willink?

  You got Shirt Locker.

• 2:17:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Shirt Locker, by the way, lead up is a subscription scenario, new design every month.

• 2:17:56Jocko Willink?

  The reason I bring this up is because somebody posted a Shirt Locker shirt. And I texted you and said, wait a second, is this one of our shirts? And you said, yes. And I said, I need four XL.

• 2:18:05Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:18:05Jocko Willink?

  Not four, not four, not XXXXL.

• 2:18:09Speaker 02

  Not four X. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:11Jocko Willink?

  Four times XL.

• 2:18:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:14Jocko Willink?

  Who made that?

• 2:18:15Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:18:16Jocko Willink?

  It's freaking dope.

• 2:18:16Speaker 02

  You know.

• 2:18:17Jocko Willink?

  So it's like a skull with the, with the death core flag carved into its head. Yeah, dude, it looks legit. And then you finally got some freaking runic writing done properly, which I've been asking you for a long time.

• 2:18:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, we made it.

• 2:18:30Jocko Willink?

  Made it happen. So that's a dope shirt.

• 2:18:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:33Jocko Willink?

  Did you get me, did you set some aside for, for me?

• 2:18:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we gotta wait for the end of the month because everybody gotta get theirs. Hey, look, we all love you. But let's face it, you know, our people, they come first.

• 2:18:43Jocko Willink?

  Take care of us.

• 2:18:44Speaker 02

  Exactly. Right. The team comes first. But yeah, when they got, they all have theirs and you're gonna get yours a hundred percent.

• 2:18:50Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So if you need some of those, if you need some T-shirts, you can check that out.

• 2:18:54Speaker 02

  Oh, wait, on that one, that particular one says comfort is a curse.

• 2:18:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And I like that too, because there's sort of like a whole, like, you know, ritualistic thing.

• 2:19:05Speaker 01

  Kind of cursy.

• 2:19:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's kind of a cursy thing. Yeah, that's, that's like a voodoo type scenario. So if you want them t-shirts, check that out. Now also, look, sometimes we got jobs. Sometimes we're gonna need to wear a polo shirt.

• 2:19:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:18Jocko Willink?

  That's, by the way, that was a standard thing in the SEAL teams. Like it was a certain mode of dressing. If you had to go on a, on a commercial flight in civilian clothes, you'd have to put on a collared shirt, they said.

• 2:19:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:19:30Jocko Willink?

  Now, look, you could get a lame polo shirt.

• 2:19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, like not fitting, right?

• 2:19:35Jocko Willink?

  Right. Just whack. Or you get yourself a Hooli Golf shirt.

• 2:19:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%.

• 2:19:40Jocko Willink?

  Tell us about Hooli, hooligolf.com. What do you got, Bob?

• 2:19:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, first of all, I just want to thank you guys for, for having me on. Uh, you know, real, real honor, privilege to be here. And, uh, yeah, I wanted to take this opportunity just to thank, uh, everyone who's supported Hooli the last couple of years. So we turned two in April.

• 2:19:57Jocko Willink?

  Yay.

• 2:19:58Speaker 01

  Hey, happy birthday.

• 2:20:02Speaker 01

  It's been a hell of a ride, but I mean, to be honest, uh, we wouldn't be here without our loyal customers and with the help of so many. So I just wanted to take that opportunity. If you're out there and you've, uh, played a part in, in getting us here, uh, thank you so much. And for everyone who's been getting the word out, please continue to do that. Uh, you know, we really appreciate it. We're trying to, you know, we make golf wear for action guys. We're trying to reach out to and connect Hooli with the action oriented, competitive minded people out there. Uh, you know, athletes, former athletes, gym rats, cross fitters, hunters, fighters, surfers, like you name it. If you share this mindset,

• 2:20:41Speaker 01

  you like to get after it, uh, and you have a penchant for golf. It's not a must have, but, uh, we are your brand. So please check us out. Hooli golf.com. We got some killer threads, polos, tees, hats, and we have a whole range of styles, right? So if you don't want to be, uh, showing it off like what I got here a little bit, uh, you know, bright pattern here. We got stuff that's a little bit more chill and relaxed. So.

• 2:21:03Jocko Willink?

  I like how it just called the freaking subdued tiger stripe, black on gray of, what'd you call it? A loud color?

• 2:21:10Speaker 01

  Well, it's, it's a, it's, it's a pattern. So I mean, if, if you're not into wearing patterns, we have some non-patterned stuff as well.

• 2:21:16Jocko Willink?

  And I gotta say, you, you don't, like, I don't play golf at all. Like, and I am not gonna play golf probably for another, let's say 25 years. Maybe when I'm like 95, I'll start be like, all right, let me get out there. But doesn't matter. Uh, Hooli, look, I still have to wear a polo shirt. I still have to wear a collared shirt. And why would I be wearing a lame? Polo shirt or a lame collared shirt from somebody that's whack. I would not do that. I would wear something that's dope. So, and you actually have the hooly. Is it, is it, is a polo shirt and a golf shirt the same thing?

• 2:21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the whole reason why this whole damn thing started in the first place is if you golf, you have to wear a polo. It's like most, there, there's some courses that are, that are a little bit more relaxed. But you know, it was this transformation from, you know, this knuckle dragging dude that I was most of my life and career. To you're going to play golf, you gotta look the part. Might as well have some fun with it. Um, you know, we use high performing materials. We've got some kick ass designs. And, uh, so yeah, if you're gonna golf, uh, no need to go out there looking like a nerd. Or if you're just, you know, living life or traveling, going to work, uh, you know, we can elevate. That look a little bit and have a little bit of hooly flair.

• 2:22:37Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:22:37Speaker 01

  That adds some, some character and there's, you know, a story and ethos behind this brand. We're not just pumping out shit.

• 2:22:44Jocko Willink?

  Well, what I appreciated was cause I was like, hey, Bob, like I dig the patterns that you're making. I dig the designs and all that stuff. But I gotta wear a regular ass polo. Like I can't go present to a company and be in, uh, like you got the one that's a bunch of.

• 2:23:01Speaker 01

  Hand to hand combat.

• 2:23:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Hand to hand, a bunch of little skeletons all over it, fighting each other or like a bunch of little men on it, like doing hand to hand combat with golf clubs. Like, so there's all these things that are, they're cool, but like, I don't need that. I, well, I need that. But I also need to have a professional shirt, which most people or many people that are here, I don't care. Look, if you're, if you work construction. And you gotta go in and present to, you know, one of the owners of the buildings, like you gotta look professional. Hooly, hooly has got you covered. If you're work at an energy company and you're, you know, a lineman, but you gotta go and talk to the boss. And present him about some plan, you gotta go in, they can't roll in there and like your, your field where you gotta have something that steps up a little bit.

• 2:23:44Jocko Willink?

  So regardless of what you do, when you gotta, look, look, we ain't going into freaking. Wall Street, we're not bankers, right? We're not wearing a suit and tie. That's not happening, but there are times where you gotta elevate above a T-shirt. And that's what, that's what we got Hooli for. So, and, and another thing where this plays in is let's say you own a company. Let's say you own a company and you got a, you got a crew of, you know, 30 dudes that work for you. And you gotta have them all look presentable. Cause they gotta show up for an event somewhere or they gotta go present to clients. And you don't want to have them all looking different like a soup sandwich. It's like what you mentioned about tasking a bruiser. People notice you look professional.

• 2:24:26Jocko Willink?

  So, don't, don't get your, your team like a bunch of junk. Uh, polo shirts that are trash. Get them some professional looking badass shirts that they go, oh yeah. And there's a little unity and everyone goes, oh yeah. We're not, hey, we're not just representing some freaking lame ass brand. You know what I mean?

• 2:24:51Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:24:51Jocko Willink?

  You want, you, when you get, hey, when you give someone a shirt, let's say you own a company and you give someone a shirt. You want them to be like, oh, he thought about this. This is for real. This isn't just like a shirt that, you know, whatever, go down to the, go on the website and order these shirts and new, no.

• 2:25:07Speaker 02

  Bro, that's a big deal too, by the way. Like, you know how like, um, you know, it's a little team of people, they show up, they got their polos on, but like, they don't fit right or whatever you can tell, okay. Maybe they went to one of these, uh, thrift stores or, you know, one of these, uh, what do you call? Club stores where they just buy in bulk, right?

• 2:25:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:24Speaker 02

  Real cheap, the cheapest, right?

• 2:25:25Jocko Willink?

  No heart and soul.

• 2:25:25Speaker 02

  Giveaway freaking, um, cheap stuff or whatever. And then, yeah, they look more like a bunch of slackers and look not, not consciously. You're not like, oh, that polo isn't squared away. So therefore you're a slacker. It's not that, you just feel the vibe a little bit.

• 2:25:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, a little bit. You think, oh, that, that shirt was probably designed by AI. When you see someone in a Hooli shirt, you're like, that thing was, that thing was literally designed by Lead Bob.

• 2:25:49Speaker 02

  Right, you already know.

• 2:25:50Jocko Willink?

  And the whole team knows that Lead Bob, Lead Bob, he was attention to detail guy. He was professional, he was on time, he was squared away. Now he's designing your shirt. Don't you want that shirt?

• 2:25:58Speaker 02

  Dig it.

• 2:25:59Jocko Willink?

  Isn't that what we're doing?

• 2:25:59Speaker 02

  That's what we're doing.

• 2:26:00Jocko Willink?

  So, you, you, you definitely gotta keep that in mind.

• 2:26:03Speaker 01

  Um, just, just to follow up, you, you hit on something, I just want to be clear to anyone listening out there is we do have a bulk and wholesale program. So if you do work for that construction company, we love doing jobs like that. It's a, uh, yeah. So anyways, uh, check us out. You can either, uh, go to the website or email us at [email protected]. We'd love to get that going for you guys.

• 2:26:24Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna put myself on report here, like, kind of, alright. Don't even know if I should bring this up, but I'm going to.

• 2:26:35Jocko Willink?

  This is out of character.

• 2:26:38Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever heard of a Tiffany's bag? Do you know there's a jewelry store called Tiffany's?

• 2:26:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, Tiffany's Anco.

• 2:26:44Jocko Willink?

  So it's like a jewelry store.

• 2:26:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:46Jocko Willink?

  And apparently it's a really nice one. And if you get, like, your wife something from that store.

• 2:26:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:56Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't really matter what it is. But if you roll in with that bag, bro, she's happy.

• 2:27:03Jocko Willink?

  Like.

• 2:27:03Speaker 02

  Oh, in the house, like, after shopping, you got the Tiffany's bag?

• 2:27:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, or, or like, she opens up the, the present or whatever for Mother's Day? And she sees a Tiffany bag, bruh, it doesn't really matter. You know what I mean? You roll in that Tiffany bag, cause it shows, like, hey, I'm in the game. I got you the Tiffany bag, the whole thing, right?

• 2:27:22Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 2:27:22Jocko Willink?

  That's kinda like when you give someone a Hooli shirt.

• 2:27:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:27:26Jocko Willink?

  They're not like, yeah, they're not like, oh, cool, you just went down to freaking whatever, Smart?

• 2:27:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:31Jocko Willink?

  Hey, got me a polo shirt. It's like, no, we didn't shop smart.

• 2:27:34Speaker 02

  It's different.

• 2:27:34Speaker 01

  Shop Smart.

• 2:27:35Jocko Willink?

  We used to shop smart, shop Smart. No, we got you the Hooli shirt.

• 2:27:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 2:27:39Jocko Willink?

  And so, and they, like, a nice little bag, that little Hooli bag with the little thing on the top.

• 2:27:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, impressive.

• 2:27:44Speaker 01

  Attention detail, man. I tried to, in this next career, apply all of that and, uh, you're right. I mean, every single polo that we make, it's a, it's originated from a thought and, uh, there's a lot of, you know, blood, sweat, and, uh, heart and soul in everything that we make and will continue to get better and, and make more cool shit.

• 2:28:04Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Check. hooligolf.com.

• 2:28:09Jocko Willink?

  Check out primalbeef.com and colorado craftbeef.com. Just go get steak. We need steak with that fuel. Well, you can have mulk, 100% bro. By the way, mulk is a good, good freaking dessert, dude. Good dessert. We got a new flavor coming out. I don't know if it's been exposed yet. Has it?

• 2:28:27Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 2:28:28Jocko Willink?

  You don't know?

• 2:28:29Speaker 02

  Tell me.

• 2:28:29Jocko Willink?

  All right, we got a new flavor.

• 2:28:30Speaker 02

  Wait, wait, the, the powder or the RTD?

• 2:28:33Jocko Willink?

  Uh, powder.

• 2:28:33Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah, of course.

• 2:28:35Jocko Willink?

  So there's new, new flavors coming out. Um, but yeah, you be, before you eat your dessert, which is a mulk, get some steak, get some colorado craftbeef.com, primalbeef.com. Uh, also subscribe to the podcast. Also check out jocko underground.com. And we got YouTube channels, but you got a hooly golf YouTube channel?

• 2:28:51Speaker 01

  You know, we haven't done much with that. Uh, over the top hooly was our YouTube channel. We'll work on that here in this next year.

• 2:28:59Jocko Willink?

  It's not been a priority at this time.

• 2:29:01Speaker 01

  Not a priority right now. You got to prioritize and execute.

• 2:29:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, we got YouTube channels, right? We got the Jocko Podcast Official. We got the Jocko Podcast Clips, Echo Charles. He's like, oh, making the clips thing. He's put like nine clips on it. Good job, dude. Everyone is really appreciative.

• 2:29:19Speaker 01

  There's more than nine, thank you. But, you know, we out there.

• 2:29:22Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Jocko Fuel has a, has a YouTube channel, Origin USA has a YouTube channel. Check all those out. Also, written a bunch of books. Check out the books I've written.

• 2:29:31Jocko Willink?

  Kids books, written a bunch of kids books. I get letters from kids that did their first pull up. Yeah, I get letters from kids that started jujitsu. I get letters from kids that learned their times tables. I get letters from kids that squared their life away with this book. So get your kids, get your neighbors' kids, get your, your nieces and nephews, give them the Warrior Kid books. Check those out. Also Echelon Front, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. These are the principles that we learned in combat on the battlefield, and these are applicable in any leadership endeavor. So if you want to come to one of our events, the next event is in San Antonio. There's still a couple tickets left. It's San Antonio, San Antonio, Texas, April 29th through May 1st.

• 2:30:13Jocko Willink?

  Come and check it out. Um, we have a bunch of other events and we can come into your business and we can help you with your leadership situation. And by the way, if you have problems, they're leadership problems. We also have an online leadership training academy, which is not just for like, oh, you're in a leadership position. You're the CEO of a company. You're a, you're at the chief of a fire department. It's not just for them. It's for you that's sitting there with you're at the bottom rung. You've been in your job for a year and a half. You no one reports to you. You can learn from the Extreme Ownership Academy and it's going to help you in every aspect. It's going to help you build relationships. It's going to help you interact with other people. It's going to help you advance, get promoted, do better, make more money.

• 2:30:57Jocko Willink?

  It's going to help you with those things through leadership.

• 2:31:02Jocko Willink?

  And that can be found at extremeownership.com. And finally, if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families. Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a incredible organization that has helped so many of our friends. Also, check out Americas. Also, check out heroesandhorses.org, which is Micah Fink's organization, helping SEALs get, and not just SEALs, helping all veterans or a bunch of veterans find themselves up in the mountains, find their soul again. And then Jimmy May has got his organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. So that's AmericasMightyWarriors.org, HeroesAndHorses.org, and BeyondTheBrotherhood.org.

• 2:31:44Jocko Willink?

  If you want to connect with us for Bob and Hooley Golf, check out HooleyGolf.com. And then on Instagram, @HooleyGolf. And then Bob on Instagram is @LeadBobHolland. Check out episode 416 if you want to learn more about that. And if you want to connect with me, check out Jaco.com. And then on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink. Echo is at Echo Charles. Just watch out for the algorithm. And once again, thanks Bob for coming back.

• 2:32:10Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:32:11Jocko Willink?

  Good to see you. Thanks for your service as a Frogman. And your continued pursuit to building a business here and helping our economy grow with Hooley Golf. Thanks to all our military out there, veterans who passed down these lessons to help us be better new guys, help us be more effective in combat, and help us be better people. And then thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all of the first responders. Thank you for protecting our way of life here at home. And for everyone else out there, look, we went through some good mantras today that are going to help you in every aspect of your life. So

• 2:32:55Jocko Willink?

  keep your mouth shut, keep your ears open, don't be late, don't forget any gear, look for work.

• 2:33:02Jocko Willink?

  Become an asset.

• 2:33:05Jocko Willink?

  And you become an asset by always training and maintaining your body and your mind. And in order to do that, just keep getting after it. And until next time, this is Lead, Bob Holland, and Echo and Jocko out.