Boundaries, Break Ups, and Comebacks with Law Roach

A little bit of shade and a whole lotta slay! Today, the legendary image architect Law Roach joins us to set the record straight — from his fabulously dramatic (and undeniably extra) unretirement to why he actually enjoys being cast as the villain on reality TV. Law gets real about the time when, as he says, ""Keke Palmer fired me” and the two have a candid convo about how their friendship and mutual respect stayed strong through it all. Plus, he shares what’s still on his bucket list with his client Zendaya and drops some serious gems on how to feel confident in anything you wear. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Keke Palmer?

  Okay, y'all, when we talk about serving looks, no one knows how to shut it down on a carpet quite like my guest today. As the world's only image architect, he's worked with Celine Dion, Ariana Grande, Anne Hathaway, Meg Thee Stallion, me, and of course, Zendaya. From his roots in Chicago, to hustling his way to the top, becoming the first black stylist named "Top Stylist of the Year" by The Hollywood Reporter. He's broken down doors and broken the internet with his insane pools. And when the game stopped serving him, he walked away. Now he's back and on his terms and sharing what's next. Baby, this is Keke Palmer and baby, this is La Roche.

• 1:12Keke Palmer?

  This episode is presented in partnership with Airbnb. Baby, summer's calling and she's got one thing on her mind: your next getaway. My take? Plan your trip by searching guest favorites on Airbnb because these most loved homes are ready for your next adventure. Let's get into it. Welcome to the show, boo! Yeah, come on, walk and stutter step.

• 1:37Keke Palmer?

  Hey boo. It is so good to see you.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Good to be here.

• 1:41Keke Palmer?

  We always cut up whenever we're together, but you know, I was excited to see what you was gonna wear to the show. Talk to me about this look. You look fabulous.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  You know, I did this in honor of you. This is like, this is jobo. You know, we grew up.

• 1:52Keke Palmer?

  Yes!

• 1:53Speaker 01

  It's very Chicago, very Chicago, so.

• 1:55Keke Palmer?

  I love that. You look fabulous. Have you been? I didn't get to catch up with you at the Met Gala. You looked amazing.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Thank you, you too.

• 2:02Keke Palmer?

  And so did Zendaya.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:05Keke Palmer?

  Not that laugh. I mean, we did see the... What were you thinking when you saw that same look from Anna Swine? I don't want to mispronounce her last name.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, Swine, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I was drunk.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  I had drank a whole bottle of champagne because, you know, I started working again. And so I had, I had six people and I consulted for the brewery table. So I was like running around, you know, making sure everybody was okay. And so I didn't, I forgot to eat. Well, I didn't really forget to eat, I just didn't eat. Because you know you gotta smash. So I had drank a bottle of champagne and I had spoken to Zendaya the entire ride. You know, she had, because she had earlier and we got caught in the traffic. And so I was talking to her and I knew she had already like walked through the exhibit and she was sitting down at her table. And so when I was getting interviewed, I looked down and I was like, why is she down there? And then I looked again, I'm like, oh, and you know us, like you're gonna get a real natural gut reaction. Like we really can't hold back.

• 3:00Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, you know, she got on Zendaya's look.

• 3:05Keke Palmer?

  But Zendaya was first.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:07Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, so I mean, what, what did, um, did they say? Did you have a conversation with her? You said Carla Welch.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Carla Welch did it, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:12Keke Palmer?

  Did you guys talk afterwards?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, Carla was really cool. I think both of them was really cool about it. Um, they was like, they just was paying homage to me and Zendaya. So I thought that was cute.

• 3:20Keke Palmer?

  Oh, wow.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was like, they had two different inspirations. The look was really, really similar.

• 3:26Keke Palmer?

  Sure.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Um, but that's okay. You know what I mean? It wasn't, I feel like this, this time around, the Met Gala wasn't about the biggest gown or the brightest color. It was about paying homage to the theme. And I think they both did that in a really beautiful way.

• 3:39Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Now, one thing that we also love about you, La, other than your opinions and your looks is your hair.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:46Keke Palmer?

  It's so fabulous. Now, I want to talk about the influence because you said in The New Yorker that your hair is a lot influenced by Cher, someone you really admired.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:54Keke Palmer?

  Growing up.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like, yeah, I guess it was that. And it was just, um, it was really inspired by this, this guy named Andre J. Who was a, um, he was like a social, like, party promoter stylist in New York and like the club scene in like the early 2000s. And he used, I remember seeing him when I started like running away to New York. And I remember seeing him at like, at parties at clubs and he used to have a beard, but he used to wear like long hair. And like, at that time, it was just, I had never seen that. I never saw a black man do that.

• 4:27Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? I had never saw. Somebody present in this way that was very androgynous.

• 4:33Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, we don't use the word androgyn anymore. And I don't think that's a bad word.

• 4:37Keke Palmer?

  No.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  You know, I kind of like, I feel like I blur those lines sometime and it's, it's about, that's why I feel comfortable in that. And he used to do that. And so, I think I just took that note, that snapshot, and when it came around for me to kind of create this persona, I thought of him. And so, that's, that's really where that courage came from to do this.

• 4:57Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. Well, shout out to Andre J. Is he still around?

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:59Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shout out to him. Love that we gave him that spotlight. But yeah, I love androgyny. It makes me think about Annie Lennox.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:05Keke Palmer?

  I loved her a lot. You know, I'm very much so masculine charm with a feminine tribute.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Well, you know, baby.

• 5:11Keke Palmer?

  So, it gives me life.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Well, you know.

• 5:14Keke Palmer?

  Now, fashion, I think, I realize, it really is a tool to tell stories. And I think you're somebody who has really put that into the forefront. So, when you're styling yourself, what is the message or the story that you're telling about law?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Um, that I really just don't give a [BLEEP]. I really am really confident in who I am. And you know what I mean? And I feel like I'm okay with not getting it right all the time. You know what I mean? Like, I, and I also think that clothes should be lived in and worn and, and not put on this pedestal. Like, of course, I have pieces that I've, because I collect, so I have things that I would never wear or whatever. But the clothes I do wear, like, I wear them all the time. You know what I mean? It's like, and I just really don't really give a [BLEEP] if I get it wrong sometimes. It's like, it's part of life. Like, it's just, you gonna make mistakes in fashion and that should be okay.

• 6:01Keke Palmer?

  Well, quickly, I want to touch on, you have clothes that you'll never touch. Let's get into that, T. What is, what is that about?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Well, I, I've been collecting for a while and I have, like, a lot of Andre Leon Tally stuff. Um, I bought a lot of stuff in a few auctions and, um, I've been collecting his pieces. So, some things that I, that I do wear and I will wear, but there's some pieces that I probably would never wear. Like, I have, like, Chanel jackets that Carl made for him. And, you know, I just don't feel like I will have the... Not the place to wear, but just like, I just feel like it's so sacred.

• 6:34Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Because there's some, there's two stories there. You know, it's the story of Carl Lagerfeld and it's also the story of Andre. And I just feel like, maybe I will wear, but as of right now, I don't have plans to wear some of those pieces.

• 6:44Keke Palmer?

  And so, well, somebody might say, well, what made you get it? What was the reason to want that?

• 6:48Speaker 01

  You know what? I think, so, long time ago, you probably remember this, that Oprah had a sale and she sold a lot of her clothes.

• 6:55Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  And shoes and stuff like that. And this one woman bought, bought a pair of her shoes and she bought it for the reason because she looked up to Oprah and who she was and what she's done. And she said, she bought the shoes so that she can see what it feels like to walk in her shoes. Right? And so, I think, I'm a person that hears things and I, and I kind of catalog things and, and when they become appropriate for me, I, I pull it out. And so, you know, to have something that was, that was kind of made by this great designer for this great person that I looked up to, gives me a, this energy to have just in my home and I can go touch and see it and look at and smell it and all those things, you know? So, it's just, I have these things in my house that, that have come from powerful people.

• 7:40Keke Palmer?

  It's an artifact. It's, it's, it's an art piece, a collected, a collected edition that doesn't have to be worn to be appreciated for what it is.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 7:47Keke Palmer?

  I mean, when did you start thinking about fashion like that? Because I'll be honest, some people probably just think about clothes like, it's clothes. You know, they don't necessarily tie it to the story of the designer and who I am at this moment in time and where I'm going and what it means to me.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:58Keke Palmer?

  But you do.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:59Keke Palmer?

  You know, when did that, was that as a kid or was that over the course of your love for style and fashion and then finding out the history of?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's because I got, I was born with a little sugar in my tank.

• 8:11Keke Palmer?

  Period.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 8:12Keke Palmer?

  Going Kool-Aid.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, it's all, it's, it's all I ever, the only talent I've ever had. And the only thing I really was able to appreciate is fashion and style, you know? And so, I just grew up with that appreciation and then it's just, I'm self-taught, you know what I mean? It's just like, I just learn and I'm always a student. Even now, I'm a student of the game, you know?

• 8:33Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, well, I mean, you are the world's only image architect, rightfully so. You know, looking back on your looks, you've had so many. What would be the one that you think would represent the philosophy that made you coin the phrase? I'm an image architect or the, or the many moments or the, or the client?

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think what people really know and appreciate me for is Zendaya and Celine Dion, right? And I think that's where you see the most influence and the most presence of that term. Right? Because I remember when I first started working with Celine, like it was my mission to show people how cool she was. And how she was younger than we all thought. We all grew up with her. We thought, when I started working with her, people thought she was 60 already. You know what I mean? Because we grew up with her our whole lives.

• 9:21Keke Palmer?

  She started performing.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. So I had to, you know, create a blueprint and a plan to change people's perception of who she was as an artist, as a woman, as a person. And so that's kind of, you know, what I was able to prove. And, you know, and I think I've done it with other people to kind of like elevate them who they are. You know what I mean? Not change people, just elevate it and change the public's perception of who they are.

• 9:48Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, to architect, to be the architect of the image.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:50Keke Palmer?

  But there's also, there's how people see themselves, there's how you see them, there's how the world sees them. How do you strike the balance between honoring a client's vision, but at the same time staying true to yourself?

• 10:01Speaker 01

  I don't come to it with any ego at all, right? You know, we're gonna bring up that phone call, when you call me, you know it's gonna come up because we gotta revisit that. But, you know what I mean, so.

• 10:11Keke Palmer?

  The kids were gagging.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's because even that, when I was working with you and I just couldn't, and you know, I will say that I just wasn't getting it right for whatever reason. And when you called, like, there's no ego in that, when you called and said that to me. It's like, no, you're right. Maybe this isn't the right time for us to work together. Maybe I wasn't the right stylist for you at the time. So there's no ego with me. It's all about making, and I felt bad and hurtful that, you know, that I couldn't get it right for you because I didn't, I felt like I was adding stress. You were pregnant, you got 17 jobs, you know what I mean? Like, I was like, what's going on? And it was like, I feel bad for that. So there's, I never go into a situation with anybody with ego. It's a, I am in a service business, it's a service job.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  And I am no different, I say this all the time, I'm no different than the nanny or the chef or the person that cuts the grass. We all get paid to do a service.

• 11:03Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  And I'm trying to do the best I can to make my client happy. And I wasn't able to. To do that for you at that time.

• 11:08Keke Palmer?

  Sure.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  So, you know, and I, I, I look at every client that like that, no matter how big or small or where they are in their career.

• 11:14Keke Palmer?

  But I think, I think that's a big part of why you're so successful, Law, and I really hope people understand that about you because before I met you, you met Sharon. You and Sharon was talking. I met you on a single lady set. I'll never forget it. We've known each other for years. And I feel like over the course of our time, you have never changed. You have always been dedicated to the job, dedicated to the hustle, and deeply, truly in love with fashion.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:37Keke Palmer?

  And so it's like, whether it was that moment or the next moment, you know, you, we always gonna have a connection. I just see you as the talented and incredible person you are that came from Chicago and really made the impossible happen.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:49Keke Palmer?

  You know, I mean, really what you have done, it's been, it's, you've changed it.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:53Keke Palmer?

  Forever.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 11:55Keke Palmer?

  You know, um, you retired.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:58Keke Palmer?

  And that was crazy.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:00Keke Palmer?

  To all of us.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:01Keke Palmer?

  And we didn't understand why.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  And you checked in on me too.

• 12:04Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, because I was like, baby.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  You're like, give me to see what happened.

• 12:08Keke Palmer?

  What happened? You know I'm gonna call for that team. Yes. And I'm like, why? And so I wanna, I wanna talk to you about that initial moment when you said, not only when you said to yourself, but when you decided to announce it.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:20Keke Palmer?

  To the world.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Well, I did it both simultaneously. It was like, I was riding in the car with my publicist who's here. We were, we had just got off the plane in Miami. Um, and this was day, the day after the Oscars. And we had gotten in a plane, got off a plane in Miami. And that morning before I got on the plane, I had this call with one of my clients and she, like, I felt bombarded and disrespected in a way. And somebody who I felt like I had protected wasn't protecting me.

• 12:46Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  And then it was a lot of stuff. I was really overworked and I was working with people I shouldn't be working with. And I was saying yes to everything. And then, you know, my, my nephew had, had, you know, passed away recently. And it was like, I was, I had all these things that, that I couldn't, that I wasn't dealing with. And I was just like, work, work, work, work. And then I got off the, and I just started crying. I just, and I found that generic. Image that said retire and I posted and wrote the message. I never thought that it would turn into what it turned into. And I didn't know that people cared about me as much as they did.

• 13:18Keke Palmer?

  Oh, yes.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Around the world. And so it gave me a different perception. And then, once I threw it out there, I felt like I had to stick to it, right?

• 13:27Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  And then I went through this whole grieving process of, you know, figuring out who I was and letting who I thought I was go and all these things. And, yeah, so I went away and I wrote a book and...

• 13:37Keke Palmer?

  I mean, yeah, the great thing about it is that we didn't really lose you all the way. You know, maybe we're styling, but you got a book.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was still doing Zendaya, so it was kind of like I really wasn't.

• 13:46Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. You're like retired, but not retired, but I'm really just not [BLEEP] with the rest of y'all.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 13:51Keke Palmer?

  Type of vibe. But during that time, I mean, my question to you when it comes to your relationship with fashion, like, you've done incredible things as a stylist, but also just like as a creative director over people's brands.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:02Keke Palmer?

  Was there a moment in time where you felt like fashion does not allow you to take that next stage? That next step out of just being a stylist? Like, you know, we look at artists, musicians, becoming creative directors for fashion houses. And, you know, in my mind, is that something that you want? Is that something that you were interested in and that they were not allowing you in?

• 14:21Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no. I've had offers. I actually had an offer on the table to be the creative director of an Italian shoe brand. And when I retired, it scared them. And so they, they kind of like pulled the, the offer back.

• 14:33Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  But, you know, whatever. I always think like things happen exactly when it's supposed to.

• 14:37Keke Palmer?

  For a reason. Oh, yes.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  You know, there, there are things that I, um, you know, manifest in, in conversation to do. So there would be some things happening.

• 14:46Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, because I mean, what you, you know, that's what you do.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:50Keke Palmer?

  You know, and so I always wonder because as Black people, as, you know, people in the fashion industry, the entertainment industry, any industry really that we're in, there's always that question of, are these opportunities open for me? And when you're working in this industry, how do you handle that? I know I, I handle it from my own point of view.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:07Keke Palmer?

  In the entertainment industry, but how do you go about it?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  You know what? I just... I think that everything, any and everything is possible. You know, and I've never, I've never had anybody in my life who works for me or work with me to tell me that something is impossible. So I really believe that anything that I manifest, that I dream about, that I see myself doing will happen for me.

• 15:30Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  And I think that's how I keep all that other [BLEEP] out of the way. Because I'm like, you can't stop what's meant for me. Nobody can. What's for me is for me.

• 15:38Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  I think that's how I'm able to stay positive all the time and and think positive and move in a positive way is because I really believe that that no one can stop what's for me.

• 15:48Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, and I agree. I mean, I think, again, challenges are real, but that doesn't mean you stop.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:53Keke Palmer?

  You just keep going.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  You just keep going.

• 15:55Keke Palmer?

  At the Fashion Trust Awards, you said that you're officially back, open for business, and you introduced us to a new muse of yours,

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:02Keke Palmer?

  Ryan Destiny.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:03Keke Palmer?

  So tell me about that coming back, why you want to talk about it at the Fashion Trust Awards. And obviously, I know why Ryan Destiny, because she's my girl, but I mean, let's talk about why for you.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Well, I wanted to announce it because I knew the Met Gala was coming. And I, you know, I was like, let me, I want to be dramatic, you know. I'm like, I'm retiring dramatic, I might as well unretire in a dramatic way. But I knew the Met was coming. I knew that I was gonna be working with some new people, like a whole new roster of people. And Ryan is somebody who, I just think she's extremely gorgeous and talented. Her mom, you know, who manages her, she and I have been talking and and yeah, we just decided, I'm like, you know what, let's try it. Let's see what happens.

• 16:39Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I love her.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  And I've been enjoying it, yeah.

• 16:41Keke Palmer?

  I love her. I just love the recent look that you guys did, that baby doll look with the little bow. She looks fabulous.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 16:47Keke Palmer?

  Um, you've spoken about burnout. We talk about it all the time. We both be working, several jobs. How do you pace yourself? You know, how do you know when to pause and push? I mean, I'm sure the retirement

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:57Keke Palmer?

  sort of thing helped, but what did you learn in that about your relationship to work?

• 17:01Speaker 01

  I still don't have a great relationship to it because I'm just like What I did learn how to do is say no. And I also learned that no is a complete answer, right? And I don't have to have an explanation behind it if I say no is no. And, you know, you know, in this business, like, you say no and then people will tell you all the reasons why you should say yes. And I think I used to fall for that. And now I'm just like, no is no, and don't ask me about it again. But I still, I love to work and I do thrive in, off chaos. You know what I mean? Like, I thrive off being super busy and, you know, I just love it. You know, I don't have no man or no dog or no kids.

• 17:41Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  So it's like, what else you got, girl? You know what I mean? Uh, but I do have a lot of real estate and a lot of other things. You know what I mean? But, um, you know, it's just like, I like it. I like to work like that.

• 17:53Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  But I don't, I'm not gonna lie and say, oh, I figured out balance and I figured out, you know, I figured out how to say no.

• 17:59Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I don't really know if there's a whole, I don't know if it was Obama or somebody said that. I think it was Barack Obama that said, there's really no such thing as work like balance. Like, it's just like, especially if you do what you're passionate about. You know, and I'm passionate about, people say, aren't you tired? I'm like, yeah, but I'm still up. You know what I mean? Cause I love what I do. And so I think it's ebbs and flows. You make it do what it do, you know? You are who you are. I do wanna stop for a second and just, you know, ask you how you're doing about your nephew who you lost in 2021. And, um, you know, how that's been for you? Cause obviously grief is a lifelong process.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  I, I feel for my brother and, and, and his, you know, his partner. But yeah, it's just like, for me, it's, it's those, we have the same birthday, so that's what makes it hard. But yeah, it's, it's just like, it's, it's the grief of knowing that you'll never know, I'll never be, see him become who he was supposed to be. You know, you understand what I mean? Like, when you lose someone and you have memories, like, I really have memories of him too much because only saw him, he was three. Only saw him a few times because I was always working. You know, so I only have one or two memories of him. You know what I mean? So when I think of it that way, that's what makes it tough. And it's like, then it's the, the guilt of like, well, why you didn't make more time? But, you know, it is, it is, you know.

• 19:16Keke Palmer?

  How do you deal with that? Because obviously I deal with it too since growing up in the industry. Where it's like you miss out on so many moments, pivotal moments. Oh, this person went to college or they went to the family reunion and

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:26Keke Palmer?

  You know, you make do with it, but like as time goes on, how do you handle that for yourself?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  I don't know if there's a right answer to that.

• 19:33Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? It's just, it is what it is. You sacrifice, we sacrifice for this business. We sacrifice for our careers, you know? You sacrifice for your child. You know what I mean? Like I sacrifice so that I'll never have to go to bed hungry again. You know what I mean? Like when you come from a place, you work so that you never have to worry about that again, you know? So the sacrifices you, they kind of like outweigh the things you missed in a way.

• 19:59Keke Palmer?

  They do. And I really do feel like that's that Chicago hustle. Like ain't nothing worth, ain't nothing hard, too hard.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:04Keke Palmer?

  For me to make sure that ain't what's happening again. So during your break, I want to go back to that because yeah, you were retired somewhat with styling.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:12Keke Palmer?

  But you put out your book, which we did that great, had that great conversation. Thank you again for having me there with you and Ramani. It was, it was a ball. I feel like you always plugging me into stuff and I, I really love that you think of me.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  I love you.

• 20:23Keke Palmer?

  I love you too.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  I'm obsessed with you, actually.

• 20:24Keke Palmer?

  I know. She's like, I know, I love you too. It's energy, always.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  I just, it was just how we showed on the play. I was waiting for you to turn around like.

• 20:34Keke Palmer?

  And you were sleeping, you know, I saw you first.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Oh, you did?

• 20:36Keke Palmer?

  You was all sleep, all pretty like Snow White. I was like, yeah, her hair was still laid. I don't know how you do it.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  It's got to stay.

• 20:47Keke Palmer?

  Summer is here and you know what that means. It's time to live your best life. This couples' trip I took to Turks and Caicos a while back lives rent-free in my mind. Okay, let me paint the picture. I stayed in this gorgeous Airbnb right on the beach, waking up to the sound of waves and stepping out onto the pristine white sand. That memory is still giving me summertime magic. Now, whether you're for a beachfront paradise like I had, a cozy cabin in the woods or a chic city apartment, Airbnb's got amazing homes waiting for you. We're talking better locations, more privacy, and the kind of space that'll have you feeling like the star of your own summer blockbuster. So don't let the summer slip away. Book your Airbnb now and get ready to live that main character life.

• 21:31Keke Palmer?

  Trust me, you're gonna have a time. Baby, I have never, and I mean never, been more devastated than when I found out that some of y'all been sneaking around behind Domino's back just to get your stuffed crust fix. Now, you know us Virgos are incredibly loyal, steadfast even. Cheating, especially on something as serious as Parmesan stuffed crust pizza, ain't gonna fly in this house. I saw y'all slide into those other pizza spots, drive-throughs, ordering that cheese-filled crust like Domino's, and I wouldn't find out about your little rendezvous. But sweetie, the healing starts today because Domino's just dropped their own stuffed crust, and now y'all got no excuse to keep stepping out on them like this. It's time to put those pizza-cheating ways to rest.

• 22:16Keke Palmer?

  Domino's new Parmesan stuffed crust is serving pure decadence. With that buttery, handmade dough wrapped around a cascading stream of 100% melty goodness, these are the cheese pools of your dreams. It's very much a goofy movie level of ooey, gooey, cheesy deliciousness. And of course, your girl can't forget about that signature garlic seasoning and Parmesan sprinkle dance on top of that perfectly baked crust, making every single taste taste like it was blessed by the pizza gods themselves. Good to think about it now. I'm already imagining the Parm stuffed pie I've been plotting on. Next time I'm placing my order, you best believe I'm having mushrooms, grilled onions, and some extra peppers just to, you know, keep the vegetables on top. Now, this is the kind of commitment I'm talking about.

• 23:00Keke Palmer?

  No more pizza cheating needed when Domino's is bringing this level of excellence to the table. Order Domino's new Parmesan stuffed crust pizza on the Domino's app and use code KIKI to get any three-topping Parmesan stuffed crust pizza for $11.99. Price is higher for some locations. You must ask for this limited-time offer. Prices, participation, delivery area, and charges may vary. Delivery orders subject to local store's delivery charge. Holler, you girl.

• 23:29Keke Palmer?

  I want to talk about your School of Style program that you launched, because that was incredible. What made you do that? You know, and how was it?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Well, I did it so that people will have a easier access into the industry, right?

• 23:43Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Because of me, because I didn't have that. I never was an assistant. I never was an intern. I kind of just came to L.A. and like, I'm gonna do what I can, you know? I'm just gonna hustle, basically. So I developed this course based on the infrastructure that I built for myself and how I, you know, became successful. And so we packaged that up. And so we graduated 210 people in our last cohort. And our second cohort is going on right now. And I was just so proud of it because people have been working. One girl just got a job with Vogue. It's like, so it was a way of me doing something to be creative, but also to kind of just, I wouldn't really call it giving back because it's not free. But you know what I mean? Like, just to give access to people.

• 24:27Keke Palmer?

  Well, I mean, the industry does have to be democratized to some degree, especially for people like us who have the ideas and all the things, but don't have the resources, don't even have the same language of how to communicate in these spaces. Because no one's told us. And some of that's systemic, some of that's just like what you're close to. I mean, it's what's available to you. So it's important. And I mean, at this point in your career, you have done so much. I'm sure there's so much more you're going to continue to accomplish. But to now start opening that space, I'm sure it gives you so much more like passion to keep going and drive.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm proud of all those, proud of the team I built. I'm proud of the people that have taken the course. I'm really super hands-on, like, yeah. So it's great. It makes me really happy.

• 25:09Keke Palmer?

  Congratulations. Now, you've spoken and wanted to costume design, which I think is absolutely incredible. But what was interesting is that you said you want to go through the whole process. This was in a Complex Media Please Explain series. And you talked about how you want to do the auditioning. You want to show your deck and you want to do it. So tell me, did you do it? What's the project or what are the projects?

• 25:28Speaker 01

  So Zendaya is gonna play Ronnie Spector in the biopic, whenever it happens, and they're working on it. And I just love. Period stuff.

• 25:39Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  You know.

• 25:41Keke Palmer?

  And the director, Barry.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Barry Jenkins, yeah. And so, you know, I I've never actually really wanted to do anything. Because we always kept it like her TV movie stuff. Like, I've never, never really had a a hunger to do that. I did Malcolm Membree, but that was like small and during COVID. It was like, you know, a couple looks. But I was like, if I want to do it and I want to work with her, I wouldn't, I don't want it to be like, oh, you know, Laura Roach wants to, I want to like work, I want to earn it.

• 26:07Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  You know, so.

• 26:08Keke Palmer?

  I mean, it is so different. Like, you know, when you said that it is different, like somebody that styles you on the carpet, a lot of times they're not pulling or thinking or caring about the same things that someone is doing when they're costume designing, which is building a story and a character. So, but I feel like you would obviously be amazing in it. So I can't wait to see.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  If that happens.

• 26:25Keke Palmer?

  If that happens, I would love it.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  We keep talking about we manifesting.

• 26:27Keke Palmer?

  That's right. That's Barry.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. I ain't even asked Zendaya yet. So she hit, she probably go ahead and see visually.

• 26:35Keke Palmer?

  Now, you said that your business will look different at this time. What does that mean? And this is from Complex Media. Please explain as well. What boundaries have you created to make your career more sustainable, if that's the word, the right word?

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. What I'm doing now is that I am, I have an assistant that that stay with me through everything. She really kind of like held me down when my nephew died. I was had, became a editor at British Vogue and I was

• 27:00Keke Palmer?

  That was fabulous.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Doing this huge Hollywood piece where we had like 25 shoots and we were shooting all the biggest stars that were in a run. You know, they do that, that nominated for the award season or whatever. And so she did all the work for me. And like, she's the only assistant that could ever, I've had probably a hundred assistants. She's the only one who could ever say that she did all my work. Like, she did all my, like, I think out of that, we did 25 shoots. I may have done two.

• 27:25Keke Palmer?

  Wow.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  And she just, she let me grieve and she, she answered every email and she, and so she stayed with me. Her name is Crystal.

• 27:32Keke Palmer?

  Crystal, shut up.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  And she was my assistant in London.

• 27:35Keke Palmer?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  And she still works for me. And so what I'm doing now is, because I built such a big, I had built such a big business and I'm rebuilding a big business. Like, I'm giving her equity in my business and making her a partner. So, you know, and that's another way that I'm thinking like to make the business sustainable. And it's not just me, because my business was global, 24/7, seven days a week. I had, you know, four sisters in LA. I had a sister in New York, a sister in London, a sister in Paris. So it just never stopped.

• 28:04Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And I want to build my business back to that place, but I don't want to do it by myself. So I'm making her a partner in the business and give her equity in the business and.

• 28:14Keke Palmer?

  That's incredible because people don't understand me. No one can do it without their team.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:18Keke Palmer?

  Now, that's me, my assistant, my mom, my partners. It's a big deal. And you've had, I mean, you've had other successful assistants that you work with. Cardi B's.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Colin Carter.

• 28:28Keke Palmer?

  Colin Carter, wasn't he your assistant for years? And so now, I just love to hear about that. You know what I mean? Because it's important and we want them to grow with us.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, because what it is, is that you don't want to leave this industry or this world and not have a legacy. Right? And so your legacy should not, for me, is not, I just put a bunch of pretty girls or did this pretty work in fashion. But my legacy, I want my legacy to be that I help people, right? And that's also the way that you become immortal, right? Because the people you help would never stop talking about you and you won't be forgotten. You know, there are people who have risen to great heights and we don't even hear their names anymore because they didn't leave a legacy and they didn't elevate anybody else with them. You know, it kind of could seem a little selfish, like saying you want to be immortal, but I don't want my contributions to this industry and to this world to be gone when I leave.

• 29:18Keke Palmer?

  Well, people need a blueprint.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:19Keke Palmer?

  Also, with what you just said, it sounds like you could be wearing that Andre Leon Tilly Chanel coat sooner than you think. Because he's one of those people. And I definitely think you are one of those people that we're seeing in real time grow to that place. Because, yes, you should be remembered so that people know a path that they can walk, even if they derivaiate from it.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:38Keke Palmer?

  They still know it existed.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  You give them a reference point.

• 29:42Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Like, I love that. I love when people are like, oh, I was able to get more money because you had already done this before. And it's like, I didn't have that. You know, I had to fight for all that. We had to be scrappy and argue with people and walk away from deals and all type of stuff to get to the place where, you know, I was paid right.

• 30:01Keke Palmer?

  I mean, do you think there are, I mean, you kind of said it, but maybe even more specifically, parts of the industry that were forced to shift because of what you did, because you pushed back against.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Absolutely, but it wasn't me.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Along, it was Zendaya. She fought that fight for me. You know what I mean? Like, she, we made a promise to each other. Like, I said I would do everything I can that I know how to do, and I will learn everything I can to make sure that, that, that you're elevated. And, you know, and, and, and she said in every step of the way, I'm gonna take you with me. So, when she gained control of her career and, and found her voice, she made sure that she advocated me in those rooms, like, and we would, she would literally say, like, even now, I mean, it don't happen as much now because people know, but she would be like, well, if he's not included, or if he can't be the status, or he can't help me make these decisions, I'm not doing it. And it's like, when you have somebody that, that's a partner for you, and is willing to walk away from sometimes millions of dollars

• 30:57Speaker 01

  to make sure that you, that you get your share, it's incredible.

• 31:01Keke Palmer?

  Is it just that Virgo-Cancer connection?

• 31:03Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 31:04Keke Palmer?

  Is it, or is it just the fact that you guys came up together? I mean, I look at what you guys built. You guys built each other's brand in the, at the same time.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, I said this one time, so when I, now that I'm doing like partnerships and all that, and I'm, you know, I ask for what I want, and I'll be like, yeah, no, I'm not trying to be Zendaya, I know I'm not Zendaya. And somebody said, but you are the Zendaya of what you do.

• 31:26Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, [BLEEP]. Well, give me more. Give me more money, give me more things.

• 31:33Keke Palmer?

  I mean, you guys are like opposites of the same coin.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:35Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? It's beautiful to see. Anytime you see people that have a shared love in a medium and storytelling, and, and just get to see them grow.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:44Keke Palmer?

  It's a beautiful thing to witness.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  And it's, it's, I mean, and it's so real, and, and it's not perfect. Like, we argue and fight, and, but I don't think love is perfect.

• 31:53Keke Palmer?

  No.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  And we should not try to pretend it is. And, you know, if she, if she wanted to say, if she said right now, like, I'm walking away from the industry, and, and, you know, I want you to come to such and such and come with me, I probably would do it.

• 32:04Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I mean-

• 32:05Speaker 01

  I probably would do it. You know what I mean? It's like, that's how, because I know, I know that we are gonna take care of each other.

• 32:11Keke Palmer?

  I think that relationship is important. It makes me, every time, everything you're saying is making me think about Sergio Hudson. He was that person for me that said, I see it for you, and that taught me, and I continuously learn every day. And I definitely do argue with him, he get on my nerves.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:23Keke Palmer?

  But he tell me the truth.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  He has such, such a great Met Gala. Such a great Met Gala. So good.

• 32:28Keke Palmer?

  It was just incredible.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  So good.

• 32:32Keke Palmer?

  It was just, ah, anyway.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Really proud of him.

• 32:35Keke Palmer?

  It's, I'm very proud of him too. It's a blessing. I'm, I'm very blessed for the relationship that we have. Now, you said that you could take somebody from Chicago and put them anywhere. And not only will they survive, but they will thrive, and I couldn't agree more.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 32:48Keke Palmer?

  I want to know from you what from your Chicago roots and upbringing that you feel you directly took into your fashion career that helped you to survive and thrive?

• 32:57Speaker 01

  I took everything. I took, you know, that little boy that went to bed hungry, crying, you know, because it wasn't enough. For me and my four siblings and basically raising myself since I was 14 and surviving off the kindness of others and learning how to co-switch and becoming what I need to become, you know, I mean, to get to survive. And I think when you come from a place like that, you can drop me anywhere. Like, I always said, like, if I was a, when I was a bartender, I was one of the most successful bartenders in Chicago. You know what I mean? Like, I made more money than you. My manager used to do this on purpose. He would go get the prettiest girls. He would go try to find the prettiest girls. They would be there [bleep] out, fat ass, long hair, exotic, light-skinned.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  And at the end of the night, we would all count our money, and I would ring more than them, and I would make more tips than them. He told me, he's like, "I don't understand how you do it." I said, "They only appealing to one thing."

• 33:51Keke Palmer?

  It's that mouth.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  They only appealing one thing. I could talk to anybody. You know what I mean? Like, and so that I just brought, when I jumped over the bar and said, "I'm not doing this no more. I'm going to LA to be a stylist." I took all that with me.

• 34:02Keke Palmer?

  Why do you think Chicago is like that? You know, I don't want to be biased, you know what I'm saying? But it's like, why are we all so ready to get into, like, what is that energy?

• 34:09Speaker 01

  I think it's just the city. It's just, I don't know. I don't know.

• 34:12Keke Palmer?

  Was it the great migration people that came up?

• 34:14Speaker 01

  The great migration, the mobsters.

• 34:15Keke Palmer?

  They still fighting, you know what I mean?

• 34:17Speaker 01

  You know, the mob. It's like, we had it all, you know what I mean?

• 34:19Keke Palmer?

  I mean, Bernie Mac, I mean, the list go common, you know what I mean? Me, you, Dwyane Wade, I mean, it's like, we, there's a hustle there that won't quit.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  It's like, we just don't stop. We can't stop.

• 34:29Keke Palmer?

  No. Now, you started your career with a vintage store. Deliciously vintage and, what was it, in Pilsen? In Pilsen, in Pilsen. Now, no formal training or internships or connections to designers. What made you and how did you think, "Yeah, I'm about to do this vintage store"? Was it something that was, okay, okay.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  It was a hustle. It was all hustle. Everything I do is birthed from a hustle. So, my grandmother To take me thrifting, right? So I I just went.

• 34:52Keke Palmer?

  My momma loved thrifting too.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  I would just go thrifting with her. So I'd never forgot that. So I would go and get stuff from the thrift stores or whatever and I'll wear it. And then I just started like buying things like I would buy like a purse here and there like these long clutches from the 50s and I just had a car, a trunk full of it.

• 35:07Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  And I remember one day I opened my trunk for something and one of my girlfriends were like, oh, my God, let me see that bag. That bag looks like that's a John Clayton bag. You know, that was Tracee Ellis Ross's own girlfriend. She used to wear these long clutches. And she was like, let me buy that for you. And I paid like $3 for it. And I was like, OK, give me 60 bucks for it. And she was like, OK. And then and so that turned into, I'm like, OK, this is a hustle. So I would go thrifting. I always have a good inventory of stuff. I would throw a hotel, get a hotel room, get some cheap champagne, mix it with some peach juice, have, you know, mimosas and bellinis and invite the girls and they would try on clothes. I would get it dry cleaned. If it was knee, I would raise it up. I would take the waist in, you know, cheap alterations. And and the girls would buy it. And so I just kept doing that and doing that. And then I was able to open the store.

• 35:52Keke Palmer?

  Would you ever do that again? Or would you ever let people pull from you again? Would you ever do like something like this?

• 35:56Speaker 01

  You know, I sell some stuff when I think that it should be on somebody. I want to see it live on somebody. I'll sell some stuff.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  But it has to, it has to be like the right girl and the right thing, you know? If I see, if I got a dress, I'd be like, Kiki, you used to buy this dress for me.

• 36:12Keke Palmer?

  Period.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  I see it for you. You know what I mean? Then I'll do that. But, um, yeah, I still love that. I love, it's a treasure hunt.

• 36:18Keke Palmer?

  Because you know the girls will be on your doorstep.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:21Keke Palmer?

  What do you got? I mean, I want to talk about the Thierry McGlair robot suit from the Dune 2 premiere because it generated over 150 million in media impact value. I say that to say, do you think that the industry truly grasps the value of stylists? You know, what they bring to a celebrity's image? Do you think that they do?

• 36:39Speaker 01

  I think, I think after that Dune run and after Challengers, I think so, right?

• 36:45Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  And when I get a chance, I always want to advocate, advocate. Because what I did for Challengers, I thought was so amazing because Tashi Duncan didn't exist. You know, as opposed to Barbie and no shade to that and what that thing was. That was great.

• 37:00Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  But Barbie has existed our whole lives, right? Barbie's been around for 60 years, right? So to to create those looks based off something that already existed. Was easier for me to create this world of Tashi Duncan. We did like a faux magazine, put her on the cover of the magazine. And my Jeezy and Dan never posted any of this. This was all done from my social media channels. To walk into Target and tennis court was at the front of the store. And to see the direct impact from this, this idea that I had to bring this character to life. I do think that, that studio started to understand or should have started to understand the power that Silas have to put asses in those seats to see those movies.

• 37:44Keke Palmer?

  So what happens? Do you go at that meeting and say, hey, I have a meeting, I have a pitch deck. This is the thing. Or do you just do it as you go?

• 37:51Speaker 01

  So I, that was Zendaya's first movie as the leading lady. So I'm like, I'm gonna go all, I'm going crazy for you. You know, while she was, you know, Zendaya, you know, Virgo's, y'all want everything to be perfect. And she was like, you know, I hope people go see the movie. And she had, and I was like, you, you do that, you do the work here. Let me play with these clothes. You know what I mean? Like, let me create this world around this character.

• 38:12Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  And, and so I did that and to see the impact. Because then all of a sudden you saw brands pushing tennis, tennis clothes. And, you know, the tennis skirt became trending and all this stuff was trending. And then, so to see that, you know, like studio should pay. And I think we should be paid to do that.

• 38:28Keke Palmer?

  I was about to say, what, because that's the reason why I'm asking is that reminds me of Kevin Hart. Back in the day, what he did with Think Like A Man. He pretty much helped to digitally market the film, created his own company. And now it's hired because of that work he did initially, probably for free. It became another side business. And so when I'm hearing you talk, what I'm hearing is marketing strategy. Through fashion storytelling. And that makes me say, that's another business.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, it is another business. Let's start it.

• 38:51Keke Palmer?

  Okay, because I got movies.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  I want to be a business with you.

• 38:56Keke Palmer?

  Because I'm like, that's cheap.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Because what they she gonna do is get a check.

• 38:59Keke Palmer?

  Okay. Now, when stepping into the next generation of creatives and even thinking about the things we're saying, right? And just expanding that space, what advice would you give to them, you know?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Don't put your phone on do not disturb. I can't stand that. I hate it. I hate it. If you, if I, if I look down and your phone is on do not disturb, I don't even want to talk to you no more.

• 39:23Keke Palmer?

  Oof.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  It's like.

• 39:24Keke Palmer?

  They're done like that?

• 39:25Speaker 01

  In a way, because it's like, I, I just can't understand the person that wants to put their phone on do not disturb at 9:00 PM.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  And don't take it off to 9 a.m. Especially if you in L.A. I'm like, it's already noon in New York.

• 39:44Keke Palmer?

  I do think that the work ethic could pick up a bit more.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:48Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. I do think, you know what I mean? I do think that. But look, you're talking to a workaholic at this.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Right, but you could also say that you want to be me, or you want to have the career I have or the lifestyle I have, and then put your phone on do not disturb. I don't even know how to do that. I never learned. And I don't care who called me, any [BLEEP], I'm not answering. People be calling me like, you up? Yes.

• 40:08Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. You sound like Sharon. I don't even think my mom sleeps.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  What you talking about?

• 40:13Keke Palmer?

  Hello?

• 40:14Speaker 01

  And I definitely answer all the numbers I don't know.

• 40:17Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  She like, I don't know that number. Oh, I'm answering that.

• 40:19Keke Palmer?

  That's when your ex is calling?

• 40:21Speaker 01

  No, that might be some money. We answer that call.

• 40:23Keke Palmer?

  I love it. For you, love, like, your love life is no. I don't think I've ever heard you about, heard you talk about going on a date, anything. So your love life, you don't have no ideas for marriage?

• 40:33Speaker 01

  I don't have no aspirations for that. I don't. Like, I don't have any aspirations for, like, a romantic love. Like, I want a nice meal. I want to have a nice meal. I want to [BLEEP], I want to go to sleep. And then I want you to leave. I want you to leave. I want you to go back to wherever you came from.

• 40:48Keke Palmer?

  Whoopi Goldberg has my favorite quote. She's like, no, I don't want anybody in my house.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Same.

• 40:52Keke Palmer?

  And I'm like, I do relate to that. Is that just like when you're like in love with what you do? Is that?

• 40:58Speaker 01

  I just, I just never, ever had the, I'll tell you a story. So my friend is cra, one of my friends was crazy about love. He like, oh, I just can't wait to find my love or the love of my life so I could wake up with him and go to sleep with him and call him. And he called me and we'd eat together and all that. And he was like, and I'm praying for you to find somebody else. I say, save your prayers for yourself. Don't pray that prayer for me. Pray that, don't pray that prayer for me. I don't want it. I don't want it.

• 41:22Keke Palmer?

  Now, what about kids? That neither?

• 41:25Speaker 01

  No, I, I would have loved to have been a parent, but I just don't think now. It makes sense for me.

• 41:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:32Keke Palmer?

  It's what it is.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  But that, that, that, I don't want it.

• 41:35Keke Palmer?

  You got plenty of daughters.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:37Keke Palmer?

  Now, you've been a judge on America's Next Top Model, obviously legendary. When we had our legendary moment.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 41:44Keke Palmer?

  Now.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  You ate that.

• 41:44Keke Palmer?

  You ate that all day. Now, now, I mean, you're about to be on Project One Way. I live for you on these shows because you're always going to give us a gag and a role. And I think sometimes people don't know, like, this is the persona, this is the entertainment. I'm giving y'all the life that y'all need. But then also, at the end of the day, like, you are actually one of the sweetest people that I know.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Who don't ever say that out loud.

• 42:05Keke Palmer?

  I know, he's me, y'all, for real. So how is it when you go on these shows and you decide how to give, you know, how to get these people what they paid for?

• 42:12Speaker 01

  That's exactly what it is, right? There is, there's a formula to television, and we all know that every show needs a villain, right? And so, I'm not a [BLEEP], but I get paid to play a [BLEEP] on television.

• 42:25Keke Palmer?

  I love it.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  And I love it, you know what I mean? But it is like, you know, just like you, very quick with, you know, you out, you quick on your feet. You gonna, you come back with a comeback, you know what I mean? And so, it's, it's what I'm good at, and it also gives me a chance to be expressive in a way outside of being expressive as a stylist.

• 42:41Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 42:42Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 42:49Keke Palmer?

  Summer reading, more like summer listening. I've been living for Emily Henry's Great Big Beautiful Life on Audible. Okay, it's got everything, a mysterious heiress, competing biographers, and that slow burn romance that makes you want to just throw your phone across the room, but don't because how else are you gonna keep up listening? That would be crazy. And that's what I love about Audible. You can dive into these amazing stories while doing literally everything else. Working out, listen. Meal prep, listen. Pretending to clean but really just dancing with the vacuum. Baby, listen. With over a million titles and thousands included with membership, Audible's got all the audiobook, podcasts, and originals you could want.

• 43:34Keke Palmer?

  Your imagination deserves this. Head to audible.com for a free 30-day trial, and your first audiobook is on me. Visit audible.com/keke and sign up today. There's more to imagine when you listen. Y'all, in celebration of their 20th anniversary, Apple Podcasts just named our show one of the 20 podcasts they love. Can you believe it? These are the shows they say bring the best stories, the freshest voices, and are changing the game in how we all listen. I mean, what an honor. We are so proud to be a part of this moment and excited to help shape the next 20 years of podcasting. If you're just joining us, go check out some of our favorite episodes. This is what we do on Baby. This is Geeky Palmer.

• 44:18Keke Palmer?

  Now, when you're on these shows, talking to these contestants, what do you wish someone would've said to you coming up? You know, what are you thinking when you're in those moments with them? And trying to give it to them real in this, you know, quick 20-second moment they have with you?

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I don't wish any... I think all the good advice I got, I got. You know what I mean? I'm not... I don't feel like I missed anything. You know, some of the best advices I... The best advice I ever got, somebody told me just sometimes you gotta be still. And whatever that means to you, be still in motion or be still in your thoughts. And for me, it's be still in my thoughts. Like, when things get a little bit out of control, I just have to take a minute to, like, be still, and it'll come to me. And so, you know, I've... That was some of the best advice I've ever gotten, and I take that with me all the time.

• 45:03Keke Palmer?

  Now, I don't think I was surprised when I heard this. Maybe I was immediately initially, but then, once it settled in, I was like, no, this sounds right. But you studied psychology in college. I'm wondering how that connects to the way you view fashion, the way you, you know, add the storytelling and keep the meta-element a part of it. Like, what do you think that you learned from school?

• 45:23Speaker 01

  I think it learned me to understand people. You know what I mean? And women, truly women. You know what I mean? It just helped me be able to communicate not... Without using words. Like, I can... I can just watch your body language. You know what I mean? Like, and I could tell when something is making you feel uneasy or angry, or when you're happy, or when you're sad. Like, I know it's taught me when to speak and when to shut the [bleep] up and just watch, you know what I mean? Or listen. And so, that's what I took from it more than anything else.

• 45:55Keke Palmer?

  What do you observe about a talent before pulling for them?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  I do a lot of research. Like, I'll go and look at everything you've ever worn in your entire life, if I can, you know, and I look at pictures and I watch interviews. Like, if I see you on an interview and you keep doing this or you doing this, like, something's uncomfortable, like, something's too tight or something's not wrong, or you're not confident about the dress. Or if you, I can just, I can just watch and I'll know. I can, I'll look at something and I can tell you, like, oh, you really didn't like that dress, or you didn't like this look for whatever reason. And you're probably like, oh, yeah, I hated my hair or my makeup wasn't right. I can see all that in a picture, you know what I mean? Like, I can see it in somebody's smile. I can see it in the way they talk. And I, but that's just for years of me just studying people's body language. And, you know, like, I just recently dressed John Baptiste.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  And John Baptiste is such a genius. And you can see that he sees music, right? And so, and the fitting with him, he speaks, not with words, but he speaks with sounds and he communicates with body language. And so, I had to catch on to that quick and watch him move and see, like, and I just, I don't know, it just all came back to me, like, the years of experience. And I was just watching him and I was like, oh, okay, I see what it is. I'm like, he doesn't like the hem or the pants. And so, I went down and I started to fix it. And he was like, oh, yeah. And it was, he's so brilliant. And the whole time, he's listening to jazz. And I feel like he's listening to jazz, but he's creating music at the same time.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  And so, he's making sounds and he's moving his hand and he's dancing, he's swaying. But he's also looking at himself in the mirror and he's watching you watch him. And he's giving you these signs, but he's not saying anything. So, I did a whole fitting with him, with him barely saying anything. Like, I can see the way he, it was, I wish, I wish I had got it on camera.

• 47:50Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Just how amazing that was. Because when I walked away from it and I started to talk to my assistant about it, I'm just like, we just did a whole fitting with somebody not even really talking to us. Which is absolutely terrifying.

• 48:02Keke Palmer?

  At least he gave you some jazz.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  But incredible at the same time. That I was able to like, just go, it was just emotion and I could tell like, and he was looking at himself and he had moved his torso and I'm like, oh, okay. You want the jacket to come in a little bit more. And so I stepped back behind him and I'll pull the jacket in and call the tailor over. I was like, we should bring it in. And then he'd be like, oh, yeah.

• 48:24Keke Palmer?

  This oh, yeah is gagging me.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  But you know him.

• 48:26Keke Palmer?

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  You know, it's just that New Orleans thing. He like, and so when I, so I was working for the oh, yeahs, right? I was working for him to tell me I was doing something, I was doing it right. I live for that.

• 48:38Keke Palmer?

  It makes me wonder, like, do you think now, because I mean, maybe it was different in the earlier years when you were just getting your name out there. But now it's like you're Law Roach. Do you think when people are coming to work with you that they come in with an expectation of how it is to work with you?

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, they want the best.

• 48:51Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, they're just kind of like watching you do your thing.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the, and that's why I was so disappointed when, when our situation happened. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's funny, it's funny you tell the story. People laugh at the story, like, Keke Palmer fired me. But I won't, I would never let that go because I, I, I feel like, okay, I owe you a look. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? Like, no disrespect to your stylist, you're doing a great job, whoever it is. But no shade. That wasn't shady if you hear.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  But you know what I mean? It's just like, I, I really, every time, I can look, I know every time I messed up. You know what I mean? I know every person I messed up. I know every person I wasn't able to get it right for. Because when people come to me, they come expecting the best.

• 49:31Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Like, when you go to the best restaurant, you expect the best service, the best food. When you stay in the best hotel, you expect the best service, the best quality, everything. That's what you paying for. And you are disappointed when that's not delivered to you. And I'm disappointed that I wasn't able to give that to you, you know?

• 49:47Keke Palmer?

  That means we, we owe some looks.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, I just got so much integrity about what I do. You know what I mean? Like, that, that call, although it was funny. It's, it's, it, it could, do you see, I keep talking about it? I need you to say something like, what's your feel? Let me be like, so how did you feel when I couldn't get it right?

• 50:06Keke Palmer?

  Okay, how I felt was, you know, what if, what does this mean? Because, again, we go way back. We go way back to the Gucci dress that zipper broke.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:16Keke Palmer?

  And I ended up wearing that bag on the carpet.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  And people said you was pregnant. And so this was my way to figure it out. That's too funny, because people said you was saying you was pregnant in the blogs. And then I came back and you was pregnant.

• 50:27Keke Palmer?

  And it was still were.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  It's your fault.

• 50:30Keke Palmer?

  For the first time for not being pregnant, for the second time for being pregnant.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's your fault.

• 50:34Keke Palmer?

  I just felt to myself, damn, is it, everybody, I could not understand how we could have so much chemistry, like, in real life. And that chemistry would not be shown there.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  It didn't translate.

• 50:47Keke Palmer?

  And so I don't, I feel like, yeah, there has to be something else. Because we're meant to be together.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:52Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? In some ways.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:55Keke Palmer?

  So I just thought to myself, I don't get what, you know what I mean? Like, was this law sabotaging me?

• 51:00Speaker 01

  It was, it was.

• 51:00Keke Palmer?

  You know, what is that? What is this? This is not La Roche.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  You know, it was all, everything was leading up to that retirement. You know what I mean? Like, it wasn't too far after that.

• 51:09Keke Palmer?

  Could be timing too.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:10Keke Palmer?

  But at the end of the day, does that mean anything about who you are? I mean, like, I never thought to myself that you weren't a brilliant stylist.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Oh, no, you said, you make that very clear.

• 51:19Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, that was very clear. I was just like, damn, is it just not?

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:22Keke Palmer?

  Me, the me in law, like? But maybe, you know, hey, we need to, you know, you're not retired anymore.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  No, I owe you, I definitely owe you, I owe you a free one.

• 51:29Keke Palmer?

  Woo! It's gotta be a good one. Y'all heard it first, kid. I mean, you've built a career out of method dressing, where a character, story, and style align. How can everyday people do that? I think it's so, I mean, even though they're in their lives, sometimes it's hard to observe yourself. So how can they put themselves in that seat and be able to experience the expression of themselves through clothing, through clothing, excuse me?

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's, I think, I wrote a really good book about it, called How to Build a Fashion Icon.

• 51:58Keke Palmer?

  The book is incredible.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 51:59Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  And it's all about confidence. Like, it is all, all about confidence. And I think, we started this conversation with me talking about my own confidence. But you have to, and in the book, I actually give action items to help build confidence, right? And I think, once you hit that, once you hit that mark, the most, the ultimate confidence is, I don't give a Right.

• 52:23Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  It's like, I don't give a about what you think about what I'm doing, who I'm and what I'm eating, what I'm wearing. You know what I mean? And once you build yourself up to that point, then it's easy. But there's things that, there are things that you need to do to get that point, right? It's like, you might don't think you, you probably don't think you look good in green because your mama thought she didn't look good on green, in green, right? So you have to kind of like break some curses.

• 52:45Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  There's a lot of stuff that we don't like about ourselves, we learn from other people. And once you take that back and really start to see yourself for who you are and what you are, and the clothes are easy, right? The clothes become easy. You wear whatever you want to wear. Like people always like, what should, I'm, I'm this shade, what should, what should I wear? Whatever you feel pretty in. And let it be that. Because the feeling and the emotion that the clothes give you is what's important, right? Not what people on the outside think. And when you learn how to tune that out and dress for yourself and live for yourself, then you become a different type of person.

• 53:18Keke Palmer?

  It's so interesting how all of it is, is so intrinsically tied to, you know, healing, processing, and being able to really just self-express through self-growth.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:28Keke Palmer?

  I feel that personally for myself. My relationship with fashion changed so much after my baby, after everything that I processed, went through and understood about myself with my baby. The confidence that I got from having my son, it made, it's so much more fun and playful to express myself without giving any.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Well, you don't give a.

• 53:45Keke Palmer?

  So true.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  And it's, and even like I said earlier, you not, we not always gonna get it right.

• 53:50Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  We not always gonna get it right.

• 53:52Keke Palmer?

  That's right. And having confidence in that, like it's a part, what did you say earlier? It's a part of the process.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  It's part of the process, yeah.

• 53:58Keke Palmer?

  Well, you know, I can't have the law roach on the show and not getting into a little style bag. So we're gonna play a game. I'm very excited.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 54:06Keke Palmer?

  It's called, it's, it's kind of throwing it back to your vintage days. It's called thrifted or shifted. And here's how it works.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 54:11Keke Palmer?

  We're each gonna take turns pulling from a box, okay? A mystery box. And if we're filling it, we'll say thrifted and style it on ourselves. If it's not the vibe, we'll say shifted and give it to the other person to figure it out, which is so shady boots.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 54:25Keke Palmer?

  Now, when we're out of pieces, we'll do a little fit check and shade each other's looks. Ready to go?

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 54:32Keke Palmer?

  Are you ready, boo?

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's go.

• 54:36Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Shift it.

• 54:39Keke Palmer?

  This [BLEEP].

• 54:41Keke Palmer?

  Shift it.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  I actually like this one better.

• 54:44Keke Palmer?

  It was a setup? Okay, here we go. What else we got? Ooh. Okay, this has a little pizzazz to it. This is a little pizzazz.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Shift.

• 54:58Keke Palmer?

  You see what's happening?

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Girl, y'all is playing games.

• 55:00Keke Palmer?

  This is definitely shifted. This as well? Okay, honestly?

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Who put this box together? Your stylist?

• 55:11Keke Palmer?

  Actually, this is all [BLEEP] you had for me when we did our stylist. This was all on the rack.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  Yes, ma'am. Okay, thrift it. Okay, so we'll keep those.

• 55:19Keke Palmer?

  Okay, I don't know about this. I'm gonna just make a pile of [BLEEP] I hate.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  She quick, eh? She came back. That response, quick. That's kinda cute.

• 55:28Keke Palmer?

  You keep me on my toes. That's not bad. I think that's adorable.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  I like it, I like it, I like it.

• 55:31Keke Palmer?

  Okay, well, there's a couple of different ways I can go. You know what I'm saying?

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Let me get that one.

• 55:37Keke Palmer?

  I have options now. Okay, so the funny thing is, I know exactly look I'm gonna make. I could make a look that feels very like upscale and kitschy, but actually, I'm gonna go something that feels very like chill, like mom on the day with her boo little boo boo baby.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:52Keke Palmer?

  So I'm gonna take this t-shirt, okay? This is like this little old vintage 2023 Arizona shirt. Nice graphic tee. Feels like, you know, some hipster dip. Somebody in Brooklyn.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  It says gay rodeo. That should be mine.

• 56:06Keke Palmer?

  No, it's mine. I'm gay too.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:08Keke Palmer?

  You already know that, love. So I have this. It's big, it's fly, and then honestly, like I said, I'm gonna give you like a niche vibe. I'm gonna take these big overalls.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  It's very blossom.

• 56:19Keke Palmer?

  It's very, you know what I mean? Very cute, very, the big hair with it, you know what I'm saying? It has these little flowers, colorful flowers on the bottom. I can cuff the little bottom, and I could even still keep the heel with it.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:31Keke Palmer?

  Then...

• 56:33Keke Palmer?

  I'm going to add, just for kicks. Whoa. Okay, easy. Easy, just to give it a little more girlish flair. I have three bags here. I have one that's like a little, you know, big pocketbook. It's kind of cute. It could work with something. I like the little stuff on it. It's like, oh, my gosh, I got it from a trinket market. But it's a no for now. Then I have another like, oh, it's Berndy Melville. I'm just hang- I'm a teen.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:55Keke Palmer?

  No.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:56Keke Palmer?

  Love Berndy Melville, though.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  She's cute, though. She cute was what she got on, actually.

• 57:00Keke Palmer?

  It's cute.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  The gold shoes.

• 57:01Keke Palmer?

  It actually does go.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  She works.

• 57:03Keke Palmer?

  Very cool, very- my grandma gave it to me, for sure.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:06Keke Palmer?

  Love this.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:07Keke Palmer?

  So that's my look. Cross body. I would keep the heel on. This is me going to the pier with Leo.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Okay, so my look is... It's very me. So, I'm gonna start with the oversized sweatpants. This is very me.

• 57:22Keke Palmer?

  They're very oversized.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, very me, with the cowboy boots that I'm wearing.

• 57:26Keke Palmer?

  Okay, cute.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna put the tank. Right, and so then I'm doing this Never Drinking Again because of my comment at the Met.

• 57:33Keke Palmer?

  Period.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  About that girl, is the dance look.

• 57:35Keke Palmer?

  T-shirt.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Right, and then I'm going to...

• 57:37Keke Palmer?

  Oh, this is cute.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Put this little, kind of like African, can't say something.

• 57:43Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Uh, I'm gonna put that with that. So you see the colors, guys?

• 57:47Keke Palmer?

  Yes, it's tan, so it's black tee, the tan collared shirt with the little...

• 57:52Speaker 01

  And then I'm gonna put that on. You see how I'm playing in these colors? You see?

• 57:55Keke Palmer?

  I really like that.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  See? You see that?

• 57:58Keke Palmer?

  Then we got the like zebra type, chinchilla fake chinchilla.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  See, look at the two patterns together. But they're all in the same family. They're in these very warm, I mean, cool, I forgot, one of them tones.

• 58:11Keke Palmer?

  The ones that are nice to the eyes.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Right, right, so that's a look. And this actually, I would definitely wear this and this for sure in my real life.

• 58:20Keke Palmer?

  I'm not mad, I think we did pretty good.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  I think we did pretty good, too. Like, this is very chic.

• 58:25Keke Palmer?

  Ooh, is this the show? Are we gonna go around town and shop vintage and put looks together with models?

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Let's do that.

• 58:31Keke Palmer?

  Get into that, is that the, is it thrifted or shifted? Stay tuned.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Listen.

• 58:36Keke Palmer?

  It's the La Kiki Show.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  It's the La Kiki Show.

• 58:38Keke Palmer?

  La, I love you so much, boo. It's the Leaky Show. I love you so much. Thank you for coming.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 58:45Keke Palmer?

  You're amazing. And I'm so glad you're no longer retired. That was stressful.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 58:53Keke Palmer?

  That was La Roach, y'all. He's been killing the game for years. But he's not just building looks, he's building legacy. Beyond his undeniable talent and vision, he's a reminder that nothing in life has to be final. In fact, stepping away can be just as powerful as stepping up. It doesn't mean you're done, it just means you gotta do things your way. When the systems around you don't fit, build new ones. There is simply no one else on this planet who will fight for you the way you can. Whether you're on a red carpet or running errands, believe in yourself. Don't forget it. See you next week, cuz baby, this is Keke Palmer.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Baby, this is, this is Kiki. Baby, this is Keke Palmer, yeah.