546 - A Superstar of the Early 70s

This week, Georgia covers Atlanta serial killer Michael Terry and Karen tells the story of the Acali expedition a.k.a. the sex raft. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is Exactly Right.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  911, what's your emergency?

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  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  It's a homicide detective down here.

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  Three bodies on the ground.

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  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

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  All sins swarms upon you and upon your people.

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  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

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  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

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  Brian Phillippe, 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

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• 1:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:51Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 1:52Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:53Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're just casually podcasting for your entertainment.

• 1:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you see that I have a nap crease in my face?

• 2:02Karen Kilgariff?

  In the face?

• 2:03Georgia Hardstark?

  As I'm podcasting on Netflix.

• 2:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it vertical or horizontal?

• 2:07Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, what's that way?

• 2:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Horizontal.

• 2:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 2:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the horizon.

• 2:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Like the horizon.

• 2:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's as wide as the horizon across your cheek.

• 2:14Georgia Hardstark?

  That's how, together, my shit is. Is that I just show up with a fucking nap crease.

• 2:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I was literally at Sephora seven minutes before this show started in a kind of wild attempt to like, maybe this will help. Maybe this lipstick will solve it.

• 2:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 2:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And I feel like I need to just say a public, generalized apology to people who work at Sephora. I couldn't be ruder.

• 2:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Really?

• 2:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't want to be rude at all. I want to look at lipstick. I want to touch foundation. I want to see all the new things that all my friends on the internet talk about. And I want to interact with them. And I don't want to interact with anybody else.

• 2:55Georgia Hardstark?

  How come though, when you need help, you can't find anybody? Is this a stand-up routine?

• 2:59Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the funniest stand-up routine we've ever written on this show.

• 3:03Georgia Hardstark?

  But then, when you ask them for help, then they use their brushes on you. And I don't want your brushes on my face.

• 3:08Karen Kilgariff?

  You've got to find the person that works there. And for me, it's usually the woman that's closer to my age.

• 3:14Georgia Hardstark?

  The oldest woman, yeah, for sure.

• 3:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Completely. And she's always kind of looking at me like, almost afraid that, you know, still don't need help? But if I do, absolutely, that's the person I'm going to. Where it's like, hey, help me fix this, this, and that, please.

• 3:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like when you see those videos of influencers going, tips that made me look as good as I did in my twenties in my thirties. And you're like, it's fucking collagen, bitch. And you, it's not.

• 3:39Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no tip?

• 3:40Georgia Hardstark?

  You're not special yet.

• 3:41Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you haven't hacked anything.

• 3:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell me when you're 59.

• 3:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Chronological age.

• 3:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 3:46Karen Kilgariff?

  You're just doing, it's the thing like, when I used to love to mouth off about in my thirties of like, I would never get plastic surgery. And it's like, correct. 30-year-old you would never get plastic surgery. Just wait till 55-year-old you shows up.

• 3:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure, and in fact, I wish I had gotten it in my thirties so I could have all that time to look fucking great.

• 4:04Karen Kilgariff?

  The POV that you have at any time in life is simply just the information you've gotten up until that point.

• 4:11Georgia Hardstark?

  100%. Because I know there's some chick who in her 60s is going to me, shut the fuck up at 46, talking about your botox.

• 4:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, always.

• 4:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So I will.

• 4:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So we will shut up.

• 4:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And so that's why I'm not talking about it.

• 4:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Our silent true crime podcast for the rest.

• 4:26Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, what is maybe going to help me is 55 days without alcohol.

• 4:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Really?

• 4:30Georgia Hardstark?

  With my beauty treatment.

• 4:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, for real. Your skin is glowing.

• 4:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 4:34Karen Kilgariff?

  You really can see it. How does it feel?

• 4:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Great. It's good. It's, I feel I have less anxiety, as my therapist told me for the past 10 years I would. Less anxiety, depression's the same, but that's just me.

• 4:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's a slow build.

• 4:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's nothing.

• 4:50Karen Kilgariff?

  If it worked immediately, everyone would do it.

• 4:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, totally.

• 4:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that's an adventure. That's like something new.

• 4:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it does feel like I'm actually like excited for the 60 days and the 90 days and the year. Knock wood, and what about you? What's up?

• 5:06Karen Kilgariff?

  That's nice. Me, I'm just tracking your sobriety.

• 5:10Georgia Hardstark?

  You've got an app. Track your friend's sobriety.

• 5:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know. I don't know about her today. What if she doesn't do it today? God, can you imagine? I mean, here's the thing. Just have fun with it.

• 5:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Just have fun.

• 5:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I have a curiosity, which I think is important in life.

• 5:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's new corner shit.

• 5:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, yeah.

• 5:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Was there something that, that like inspired you in a positive way you want to talk about?

• 5:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I mean, every quit lit book, every quit memoir that I've read by a chick that's just like me or totally not like me has helped me so much over the 10 years that I've been listening and reading them.

• 5:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And over and over and over again. So just kind of. And then going to Italy and drinking every fucking day with every meal. And then turning 46 while I was there. I was like, all right, let's not wait until it's dire.

• 6:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 6:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do, and I saw something that was like, just one, in one of those books, it said, I don't want to die an addict. And I was like, whoa, that hit me. And both my siblings have quit alcohol, which I'm so impressed with and.

• 6:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And competing with.

• 6:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Always, always.

• 6:17Karen Kilgariff?

  You will not beat me.

• 6:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Competitive sobriety. That's the new thing.

• 6:22Karen Kilgariff?

  That's your new genre.

• 6:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And you know what else I did? I gamified it in my calendar. Every day, at night when I haven't had a drink, I get a purple day.

• 6:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Or whatever your favorite color is. And then you see them all in a row. It's exciting.

• 6:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's like a material, because I think our brains have a tendency to minimize real, serious accomplishments.

• 6:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And always be focusing on the lack or the other.

• 6:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 6:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Instead of like, hooray for me. I did this thing.

• 6:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 6:51Karen Kilgariff?

  So hooray for you. You did a thing.

• 6:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I did.

• 6:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I just thought it was a regular Thursday. But we're getting real and deep on this show.

• 6:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Deep and disgusting.

• 7:02Georgia Hardstark?

  What a.

• 7:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Speaking of which, we've got a network.

• 7:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Network, good one. It's called Exactly Right Media.

• 7:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Correct.

• 7:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Here are some highlights.

• 7:09Karen Kilgariff?

  This week on Bananas, Kurt and Scotty are joined by Christine Schiefer, host of Beach to Sandy, Water to Wet, the podcast. They all talk about the usual humanoid robots working at a school in New York, a Pennsylvania man who briefly was the world's first quadrillionaire. And the guy who hiked six miles after impaling himself with a pole.

• 7:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Man. And speaking of Scotty Landis, he is the guest this week on Dear Movies, I Love You. Millie and Casey talk about his area of expertise, which is actors playing sports terribly. Plus, they review the 1998 blockbuster Armageddon.

• 7:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I don't know if everybody knows, but co-host of Bananas, Scotty Landis, is the screenwriter for the movie Ma. If you liked that horror movie, that was Scotty's idea. So him being on Dear Movies, I Love You is so perfect.

• 7:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Perfect.

• 7:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Then over on The Knife, Hannah and Pasha are joined by our very own Paul Holes. There's a lot of cross-pollinization happening on the network here.

• 8:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Paul, cross-pollinization?

• 8:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 8:07Georgia Hardstark?

  You did it.

• 8:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like I'm doing it and I don't know I'm doing it. So Paul goes on The Knife to discuss his audiobook, Finding the Lost Girls, which is all about the investigation of the serial killer Joseph Nassau, which we did cover on this show. And Paul's ongoing effort to identify the victims of those murders.

• 8:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Then breaking news over on Brief Recession. This is all over the Instagrams. I'm so excited. If you haven't heard, Michael Foot, the fucking, just darling of all darlings, is going to be on this new coming season of The Traitors: New Blood. So this week, he and Melissa answer all your questions about that. Plus, they cover recent election results, a viral ICE video, and Cash Patel's announcement of an indictment involving the Southern Poverty Law Center where Michael used to work.

• 8:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 8:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Lots of fucking crazy good stuff happening over there.

• 8:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I love Brief Recession. It's one of my favorites of the new shows that we have right now. Melissa, of course, genius.

• 9:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 9:00Karen Kilgariff?

  But Michael is the kind of person who can be an immigration lawyer in New York City, for real. Be able to TikTok about it in a way that makes people love and support him.

• 9:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 9:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And then do this podcast, and then go on Traitors. It's like, I don't understand. He does it all.

• 9:17Georgia Hardstark?

  He's in his thirties.

• 9:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that true?

• 9:19Georgia Hardstark?

  We used to do that.

• 9:20Karen Kilgariff?

  We used to defend the innocent.

• 9:22Georgia Hardstark?

  We used to do things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, back in our thirties.

• 9:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That was us.

• 9:26Georgia Hardstark?

  We could have.

• 9:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, we have done, we have done a lot of things.

• 9:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Taken nothing away from Michael Foot.

• 9:31Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, of course. But we ourselves, we've done things. And we actually make podcasts where we remember the things that we've done.

• 9:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I've done so many things in my thirties.

• 9:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:40Georgia Hardstark?

  So we're good.

• 9:41Karen Kilgariff?

  A lot of them take place in Rewind with Karen and Georgia, which is our show.

• 9:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, look at you.

• 9:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I was doing a little bridge. We recap episode 110 this week. It's our live show in Columbus. And during that show, we give out a book called Creative Cooking with Aluminum Foil. And it turns out, our writer, Alison Agosti, found a copy for us

• 10:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 10:05Karen Kilgariff?

  to look at and hold in our hands once again.

• 10:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Look at that meat substance on the cover of it.

• 10:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, it doesn't.

• 10:12Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a shank of some sort.

• 10:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It kind of is like, you think at first glance that that is a chicken, but then you look at the shape and you're like, that's a starfish.

• 10:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Karen Kilgariff?

  What's?

• 10:22Georgia Hardstark?

  There's a stein of warm beer. There's some kind of shredded mayonnaise-based salad. And then here is, thankfully Alison bookmarked it, tuna tempties.

• 10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 10:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Which sounds so disgusting.

• 10:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And does involve dill relish.

• 10:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's one for you. It's called Wait a While Potatoes. I'm not fucking making that up.

• 10:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's where you throw them in the oven for eight hours until the kids come home.

• 10:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Then you just take a couple uppers, vacuum.

• 10:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacuum a bunch.

• 10:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that we're both on vacuum. So yeah, Rewind with Karen and Georgia. That's really fun. You guys should check it out if you haven't. Fucking My Favorite Murder all week long.

• 10:59Karen Kilgariff?

  God, just go inside the frame and inside the frame.

• 11:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. In the merch corner, we still have some Wheat Woo whistles available. I've never, have we?

• 11:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think we ever have. Prepare Aristotle.

• 11:13Georgia Hardstark?

  And these are just great whistles to have on your keychain. And the proceeds benefit the National Immigration Law Center. So grab yours while they still last at exactlyrightstore.com.

• 11:22Karen Kilgariff?

  You should send one to Michael Foot.

• 11:24Georgia Hardstark?

  We will, absolutely.

• 11:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the quietest this can be.

• 11:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 11:29Georgia Hardstark?

  As someone who can't whistle, which is like one of my great shames in life.

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  As it should be.

• 11:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 11:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I hope that doesn't knock you off the wagon.

• 11:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I appreciate this. You know how many dogs haven't come to me because I couldn't whistle at them?

• 11:40Karen Kilgariff?

  We will.

• 11:41Georgia Hardstark?

  We will.

• 11:41Karen Kilgariff?

  There's your answer.

• 11:42Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. Okay. I hope that knocks you off the wagon. Karen Marie Kilgariff, you could not.

• 11:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just for the show. It's just for content.

• 11:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, because I'll fucking do it.

• 11:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I'll fucking, I'll go now.

• 11:56Georgia Hardstark?

  What pushed you over the edge?

• 11:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Karen made me do it. I had to walk down under the overpass and go to the secret bar everyone goes to at this office.

• 12:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Georgia goes first. That's me. What are you doing? Oh, they're going to spray me in the face with that shit.

• 12:13Karen Kilgariff?

  We put this on before every show and I forgot.

• 12:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit. That's why it sucked so bad this whole.

• 12:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that's why it's not working.

• 12:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's start over.

• 12:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just 98 degrees outside with a hot wind blowing and so moisture.

• 12:29Georgia Hardstark?

  A hot, like Burbank, like smoggy airport wind.

• 12:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 12:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So every just, everything feels like it's got a little like thin layer of asphalt.

• 12:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's a thick gritty wind that blows today. America in Burbank.

• 12:44Georgia Hardstark?

  In beautiful Burbank where there isn't a tree in sight, except for those ones that are wifi trees.

• 12:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's get serious.

• 12:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's start talking about the things that people are actually here to hear about.

• 12:56Georgia Hardstark?

  True crime.

• 12:58Karen Kilgariff?

  True crime. Alora, Georgia.

• 13:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of gritty cities that are covered in asphalt, today we are in Atlanta, Georgia.

• 13:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I really want to make a joke about how if you're going to talk gritty cities, you must be talking about Philadelphia. But that's kind of a sports reference.

• 13:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I don't get it.

• 13:17Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, gritty, the big mascot.

• 13:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that one's name is? Yeah, he's fun.

• 13:20Karen Kilgariff?

  He's from Philadelphia, right? Yeah, he has a scrunchie as a belly button.

• 13:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That is facts to know about Philly.

• 13:31Karen Kilgariff?

  This whole production has gone off the rails.

• 13:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Do we have a photo of a scrunchie? Okay, this is a serious part.

• 13:37Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 13:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Today's story is about a serial killer in the 80s. And the main sources for the story is reporting from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. And the rest can be found in our show notes, so I'm just going to get into it. So it's the mid 80s and we're in Atlanta, Georgia. Crime in Atlanta at this time is bad.

• 13:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 13:54Georgia Hardstark?

  We've got high violent crime rates. There's urban decay. Of course, the impact of the crack cocaine epidemic can't be understated. Statistics ranked Atlanta among the top major US cities for violent crime, including robbery, aggravated assault and homicide. Just a couple of years before this story takes place in 1982, the Atlanta child murders, where at least 29 black children, teens and young adults, mostly boys, were murdered or went missing during a two-year spree. And that had finally been allegedly solved by police, who had been very slow to act on this spree. And they tied all the murders together and tried one man on two of the cases. Of course, we've talked about the podcast Atlanta Monster before.

• 14:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Check that out if you want to hear more about it from our friend Payne Lindsay.

• 14:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And season two of Mindhunter, which actually centers those black mothers that had to fight and fight and fight.

• 14:48Georgia Hardstark?

  They're the reason.

• 14:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Just to be heard. It's really powerful and amazing.

• 14:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, there's a really great documentary about it as well. So one telling fact that I found while researching Atlanta back then and what it was like and how not safe it was, is that the residents had a trend of nicknaming their neighborhood Kroger stores. The way we have like Rock and Roll Ralphs in Hollywood and Hipster Ralphs for, you know, the neighborhood grocery stores. So those are Kroger grocery stores. So there's a Disco Kroger, a Kosher Kroger, because it's in the Kosher neighborhood. That's also nicknamed Krosher. A Stinky Kroger, a Gay Kroger, and, which is in the gay town.

• 15:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 15:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And also, there was a Kroger in the Ponce Highland area that's been known for decades and is still known for good reason as Murder Kroger.

• 15:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 15:36Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just a Murder Kroger.

• 15:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 15:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And yes, they have merch. Not them, but there is merch of Murder Kroger.

• 15:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Some smart neighbor was like, you know what is needed here.

• 15:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And also, I want to, I want to make a note that I want to cover Murder Kroger because it's a story on its own.

• 15:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not about to do that?

• 15:53Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 15:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't waste my time.

• 15:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry. God, no, shit. Okay, sorry.

• 15:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you'll do it. You'll do it.

• 15:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll definitely do it sometime. But this story isn't about that. Today's story is about a serial killer in the 80s in Atlanta who went under the radar. Yet another one, in part because his victims came from a marginalized community again. And it took two Atlanta homicide detectives, also from marginalized communities, to put together the pieces and realize they were looking for a serial killer. This is a story of Michael Terry and the two detectives who tracked him down.

• 16:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 16:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Not a cold case. So this brings us to October of 1986, where two homicide detectives have each been assigned a separate case. The detectives are Sheila Cumberworth, who had been one of the first three female homicide detectives in Atlanta when she was promoted four years earlier. And then also Marcellus Head, who had been in homicide for six and a half years. So Sheila's 39 and Marcellus is 43. And before becoming police officers, you know, they're a little older, each had had other careers. Sheila had been a key punch operator at a Frito-Lay factory. And Marcellus had been a bus driver in Cleveland, but both had moved to Atlanta in search of warmer weather. Sheila lives with her sister and her 16-year-old niece.

• 17:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And Marcellus is married and has an 11-year-old son. So here's a photo of the two of them. But they don't work together just yet in this story. It's mentioned in stories about this case that Sheila had been one of the first female homicide detectives in the city. But other than that, the fact that she's a woman and Marcellus is black doesn't seem to come up very much. Atlanta had hired its first black police officers 40 years earlier, though their roles were severely restricted. And at times, a large proportion of Atlanta police officers had been members of the KKK. By the 80s, the Atlanta police force has more black officers who have the same responsibilities as their white colleagues. But an internal investigation done right around this time shows that the department is deeply divided along racial lines.

• 17:48Georgia Hardstark?

  So it seems relevant to mention this as it is these two officers specifically who are going to connect the dots in a rash of murders in which the victims are from a marginalized community. So by this point, Sheila and Marcellus would both be considered fairly experienced homicide detectives. And at first, their respective cases are upsetting, but not particularly out of the norm for Atlanta at the time. In each case, the young victim, both of their young victims, is a black man and had worked as a sex worker. They had basically identified as street hustlers.

• 18:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's such a, that point of view is, is so from the patriarchy, like, ah, these sex workers trying to hustle me out of my money?

• 18:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 18:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That I am exploiting?

• 18:33Georgia Hardstark?

  They're not tricking you into paying for sex work.

• 18:36Karen Kilgariff?

  You started it, sir.

• 18:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly. So at first, Sheila and Marcellus are each individually investigating these cases without knowing any of the bigger picture about what anyone else is working on. So separately, as I've said. So the most recent victim had been discovered on October 20th. His name is Daryl O. Williams, and he's a drifter and just 20 years old. He had been found in an abandoned apartment building on Mason Turner Road, just west of downtown Atlanta. Prior to that, the body of a 30-year-old man named George Willingham had been discovered in a vacant field just east of downtown, off Ponce de Leon Avenue. Both men had been shot in the back of the head. George Willingham also had three knife wounds. A few days after the discovery of Daryl's body,

• 19:18Georgia Hardstark?

  the homicide division comes together for a meeting where all pending cases are discussed. And this is where Sheila and Marcellus are each presenting their own cases. And they realize that there's a lot of similarities between their cases. And then, as they compare notes with their colleagues, they realize that there are other cases that are very similar to the ones they have that have come up in the past year. In fact, Daryl's body had been found pretty much just a few steps away from where another young man's body had been discovered in December of 1985, almost a year earlier. So after reviewing the cases, Marcellus and Sheila find a total of six cases they believe to be linked. Four of.

• 19:58Karen Kilgariff?

  God, that feeling of just like, you keep on finding it. You keep on finding it.

• 20:02Georgia Hardstark?

  And that might like not even be all of them for all they know, you know? So four out of the six victims had been shot and two had been stabbed. Five out of the six had been found undressed from the waist down. All six had been young, black, male sex workers. Most had been discovered in areas where at least one other body had also been found. Marcellus and Sheila get permission from their boss to take on all six cases between the two of them. And this is, you know, when I was doing this research and kind of refreshing my knowledge of the Atlanta child killers, part of the fucking huge horrible issue of that case is it took so long and so many victims for the police to actually even say that it had anything to do with a murderer or not,

• 20:46Georgia Hardstark?

  kind of blaming the victims before they even would look into these cases and saying they're related in any way. So I think at this point, and the city got a lot of flak for that, you know, correctly. So I think at this point, they were like, go ahead. We don't need this.

• 20:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Make your connections.

• 20:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Let us know what you think is going on.

• 21:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And they're, you know, trying to get tourists and business to come to their town. They want this out of the way. So.

• 21:12Speaker 07

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warrants.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  911 Nashville returns.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 21:29Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today. To help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality. Because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 22:04Speaker 04

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• 22:35Georgia Hardstark?

  The first known victim who fits this pattern is a young man named Richard Williams, who had been killed almost a year earlier in December of 1985. He had been found in a different abandoned building very close to where Daryl, the final victim, had been found. So Richard had been 24 years old. He had been shot in the back of the head and also had two knife wounds on his body. The second known victim had been discovered about a week later, on December 14. His name is Curtis Lee Brown, and he was 21. And his girlfriend had filed a missing persons report. He was discovered in Dean Rusk Park, which has a big pond and wooded areas, and is southwest of downtown, right next to the Moore House College campus. The third and fourth victims

• 23:18Georgia Hardstark?

  had been killed about three weeks apart from one another, but both in the same location. Their names are Alvin George and Jason McCauley. Alvin had been 31, and Jason had just been 18 years old. Alvin's body is discovered on March 20, 1986, and Jason's body is discovered on April 6. And they're both discovered in the same alleyway behind the same apartment building on Kennesaw Avenue. And it's sometimes described as an apartment building. It seems more like a boarding house. It's described as that as well. It's basically a house with a bunch of rooms, and they're rented individually. There's bathrooms and kitchen is shared. So about six months passed until Daryl and George are killed. And those were the cases that had been initially assigned to Sheila and Marcellus. And as they dig into these cases,

• 24:03Georgia Hardstark?

  they realize that Daryl and George had been killed with the same gun. And Richard and Curtis, the first and second victims, had been killed with a different gun than the one used in the most recent murders, but had likely been the same weapon in both of those cases. Alvin and Jason, the two found behind the boarding house, had been stabbed. So unfortunately, there's not much information in the news articles about who these victims were and about their families. We mostly just know that they were young black men who were alleged sex workers. But as Marcellus and Sheila start to talk to people who knew them, they realize that even though all these men were discovered in different parts of the city, they all tended to initially meet clients in two specific areas, either by Georgia Baptist Hospital or near the intersection of Ashby Street

• 24:48Georgia Hardstark?

  and Martin Luther King Drive, which I think is just neighborhoods for that kind of activity. So Sheila and Marcellus start interviewing witnesses in these two areas. They ask about who these men had been last seen talking to and who came around often. And potential witnesses describe seeing an overweight, stocky black male known only as Mike as the last man they saw with each respective victim. So they find out that his name is Michael Terry. He's 26 years old and works at a local tire shop. He's known to be quiet and to not approach people, but he just hangs out. And then when the street hustlers approach him, then he'll often accept. Sheila and Marcellus decide he's worth tracking down. And when they look up his address, they realize he lives in the boarding house

• 25:33Georgia Hardstark?

  in front of the alley where Alvin and Jason's bodies had been found.

• 25:36Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not good.

• 25:37Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 25:37Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not a good sign.

• 25:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And I wonder if this case would have been more well-known if it had lasted longer, if it had gone cold. But these two incredible detectives come in, quickly put it all together. They do what we wish everyone could and would do.

• 25:52Karen Kilgariff?

  If only it could be this clear for people and fast.

• 25:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Marcellus later tells reporters, quote, "We got the name and a photograph, and we had two victims in the backyard at the rooming house, and that was too big of a coincidence," end quote. "It is enough to get two warrants, one for Terry's arrest and one to search his room at the boarding house." And there they find multiple guns. The neighbors say that Michael almost always carried a firearm. I don't know if that's legal or illegal back then. I'm guessing it's legal in Atlanta in the 80s.

• 26:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, maybe.

• 26:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? But still notable. And one-

• 26:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Sounds like it was necessary.

• 26:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. One says, quote, "He didn't even go downstairs to the kitchen without his gun," end quote. Other than this one unsettling habit, neighbors say that Terry appears to be pretty quiet, aka a, quote, "strange loner." Little is known about his personal life, but after dropping out of 10th grade, Terry evidently began committing small crimes, amassing convictions for burglary, robbery, simple battery, aggravated assault, and carrying an unlicensed firearm. Michael Terry is arrested at his job on Wednesday, November 26. And shortly after his arrest, he confesses to all six murders.

• 27:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 27:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Just like that. Though he claims that he murdered these young men due to arguments over money, and they weren't premeditated. Though investigators think this is unlikely to be the case. Six people in a year?

• 27:14Karen Kilgariff?

  No, sir. We don't accept that reasoning. That's very strange.

• 27:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And given Michael Terry's large size and his victim's smaller build, it seems unlikely that they would have messed with him in the first place.

• 27:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Or physically been that threatening to him.

• 27:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Right. Terry's charged with all six murders. He's tried for the killings of Richard Williams, Curtis Brown, and George Willingham, which I guess the prosecutors wanted to save the other convictions in case he ever got bail or was let out. Michael Terry then pleads guilty to the rest of the murders and is serving multiple life sentences. So Detective Sheila Cumberworth works for the Atlanta Police Department for about another 10 years after this, having served a total of 27 years in the department. She dies at the age of 65 in 2021. Detective Marcellus also has a long career in the Atlanta Police Department and eventually works as the mayor's personal security officer. Here's a photo of him as an older man.

• 28:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 28:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So cute.

• 28:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That guy is buying a round of drinks

• 28:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 28:14Karen Kilgariff?

  at the pizza parlor, at karaoke or something.

• 28:17Georgia Hardstark?

  And you hope he starts telling you a story of his past.

• 28:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 28:20Georgia Hardstark?

  He passes away, unfortunately, in 2024 at the age of 83. And then I checked her email, or myfavormurder@gmail email, to see if anyone had written in about this. One person had, named Selena. We had dozens of emails about Murder Kroger.

• 28:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, really?

• 28:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 28:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Really?

• 28:37Georgia Hardstark?

  People wanted us to know about Murder Kroger.

• 28:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 28:41Georgia Hardstark?

  But only one about this case. And it's from a murderino named Selena. And part of her email, I'll just read, says, quote, "It's the 1980s in the then US murder capital of Atlanta, Georgia. My dad's cousin has decided he wants to go back to college to be a psychiatrist. Due to the price, though, he needed to find a job first to save up money. With some support from old professors and friends, he was able to snatch up a job working at Georgia's forensic crime lab. In his time there, he helped out on a lot of cases, but none shook him more like the string of rapes and murders between 1985 and 86. Thanks to some fantastic work by the Georgia Crime Lab," and it says wink, wink, "they were able to tie the murders of Williams to a third murder using ballistics." So tying those bullets together

• 29:25Georgia Hardstark?

  is this chick's fucking cousin, her dad's cousin.

• 29:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 29:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. "My dad's cousin, as a gay man living in Atlanta at the time, really fixated on this case. He took it personally and helped work on matching the forensic evidence. He grew up in a time when gay bars had to blackout their windows and hire security to protect themselves from assholes. In the AIDS crisis of the 1980s, he wanted to work medicine. Murderers like Terry reminded him of the very danger life posed. In the end, he found that the people focused more on the sexuality of Terry than the fact that he was some sexual sadist who was hurting real victims who were gay."

• 30:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:02Georgia Hardstark?

  End quote. And that is the story of the two Atlanta homicide detectives who brought down serial killer Michael Terry.

• 30:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 30:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? I found this email today.

• 30:13Karen Kilgariff?

  That Gmail contains multitudes and true treasure. Yeah.

• 30:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, Selena, for writing that in.

• 30:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And thank you, Georgia, for doing the Murder Kroger story that you will be doing in an upcoming episode.

• 30:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Stay tuned.

• 30:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, you have to do all nicknamed grocery stores.

• 30:27Georgia Hardstark?

  From now on.

• 30:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Not just that.

• 30:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to know what disco- I think Disco Kroger has a disco ball, I've heard.

• 30:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Or just the place everyone goes after hours.

• 30:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I heard that one too. But I've heard they also have a disco. Let us know.

• 30:40Karen Kilgariff?

  They literally do have disco ball. Oh, that's hilarious. I love to get to know a town through details like that.

• 30:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the point. And that's like, you know those videos people make of like, how I think I'm going to be at a party, and it's all fun, and it's how I really am, and it's Mom Dami, talking about Netanyahu? I want, mine is, where are you from? Oh, Atlanta? So did you know about the Atlanta serial killer? Like, just immediately.

• 31:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you been to Murder Kroger?

• 31:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 31:04Karen Kilgariff?

  What's it like?

• 31:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what we're like at parties. That's what we think we're like, but especially sober. We're fucking not.

• 31:12Karen Kilgariff?

  No. Now you get to go, and here's the thing. You've built this nice true crime wall for yourself.

• 31:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Then now you get to just reside solely and comfortably on the other side if people know this about you.

• 31:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just who you are. There's no more anxiety about it.

• 31:25Georgia Hardstark?

  No one can be like, can you stop talking about that? Actually, no.

• 31:27Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 31:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It's my literal career. Go get me a mocktail.

• 31:31Karen Kilgariff?

  No, make this party more fun for me, please.

• 31:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Go get me drugs, because it's just alcohol.

• 31:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Do the work.

• 31:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll do the drugs.

• 31:39Karen Kilgariff?

  You're California sober.

• 31:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I am. Exactly.

• 31:41Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what I'm going to say to you about that one? Is so satisfying, the inverse of a cold case story.

• 31:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:48Karen Kilgariff?

  A fast solve story.

• 31:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:50Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a whole new area that you could get into.

• 31:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And don't worry about it, because Marcellus and Sheila were on the case, and they took care of business.

• 31:57Georgia Hardstark?

  They sure did.

• 31:58Karen Kilgariff?

  The end.

• 31:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Love that.

• 32:02Speaker 07

  911, what's your emergency?

• 32:05Speaker 07

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warrants.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  911 Nashville returns.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 32:13Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 32:17Speaker 03

  Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 32:22Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new.

• 32:28Speaker 00

  Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today. To help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality. Because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 32:57Speaker 04

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• 33:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, we're gonna go a little very much in a different direction.

• 33:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Good.

• 33:30Karen Kilgariff?

  A little very much. Because we're gonna go all the way back to 1972. And this is a story about a respected 48-year-old Mexican anthropologist named Santiago Genvez. And he's a passenger on a flight from Monterey to Mexico City in Mexico. When halfway to their destination, this plane is hijacked by a radical guerrilla organization and diverted to Cuba. It's an act meant to pressure the Mexican government into releasing their imprisoned comrades, and it eventually works, actually. And the good news is, no one is killed during this hijacking, although it is probably safe to say, most of the passengers on that plane would classify this as a traumatizing experience.

• 34:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 34:13Karen Kilgariff?

  For sure. But Santiago Genvez sees it as a gift. And that's because he has spent his career researching violent human behavior.

• 34:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 34:23Karen Kilgariff?

  He will later be quoted as saying-

• 34:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, I sounded too excited about that.

• 34:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wonderful.

• 34:27Georgia Hardstark?

  OnDeck's same.

• 34:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly. I've been researching that since I was 12.

• 34:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 34:32Karen Kilgariff?

  With the help of Stephen King.

• 34:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Hence, the drinking.

• 34:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. So much to blur out. So he will later be quoted as saying, "I was lucky to be hijacked on a plane and taken to Cuba. I think I'm the only scientist studying aggression, violence, and friction who has really been kidnapped."

• 34:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 34:49Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote. So he is particularly struck during this hijacking by how he and the other passengers behaved. Things that would normally divide them in daily life, like age, ethnicity, gender, or faith, all fell away in this life-threatening moment.

• 35:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 35:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And this phenomenon makes Genvez ask himself whether we, as a species, are more apt to use violence or to use cooperation with others when we're trying to survive. Genvez thinks that if he can answer this question, he could work toward a more scientific understanding of how to stem conflict and work towards peace all over the world.

• 35:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That'd be great.

• 35:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So, he begins to design an experiment that would enable him to study a small but diverse group of people in a similarly isolated, volatile setting.

• 35:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no. Okay. He's- no, no.

• 35:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's too late. We're already starting. But instead of an airplane, he decides the setting of this experiment will take place on a raft in the open ocean. This is the story of how that experiment went. It's been called the Akali Expedition. It's also been called the Peace Project.

• 35:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 35:56Karen Kilgariff?

  But we're gonna call it by its real name. This is the story of the sex raft.

• 36:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I've never heard of this. I thought we were going full- I thought we were just in a, what's it called?

• 36:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Like a laboratory, like a scientific experiment?

• 36:11Georgia Hardstark?

  On a plane getting hijacked. I thought it was gonna be a hijacking story.

• 36:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Going back. No, no, no.

• 36:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And I was like, what a great idea to like, think of- next time you're in a panic situation, think of it as a experiment, or as observation.

• 36:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, always.

• 36:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Calm you down.

• 36:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Becoming the observer is the trick.

• 36:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 36:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you suddenly are like, oh, well, if I have to remember all this, I have to get out of experiencing it and start looking at it.

• 36:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Pretend you're a journalist. Like, you hear about all these people who get attacked, and they're like, just focusing on the little things so they know what to tell, you know?

• 36:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And getting through it that way.

• 36:41Georgia Hardstark?

  But no, we're on a sex raft.

• 36:43Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's- we're doing the sex raft thing. So the main source for this story today is a 2018 documentary called The Raft by a director named Marcus Lindin. The rest of the sources are in our show notes, but I found out about this story because, of course, I was scrolling on TikTok in the middle of the night, and I saw a video by this creator, his name's Dexter MP4. He's very funny, tells crazy stories, and it was this video that made me go, wait, I've never heard this before.

• 37:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that the one and only sex raft?

• 37:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, yeah.

• 37:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I wouldn't personally call that a raft.

• 37:15Karen Kilgariff?

  So the word raft is used here, but this vessel-

• 37:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah.

• 37:19Karen Kilgariff?

  No, it's more like a houseboat. That center part, right, covered, it's a railing on the outside, it's basically a floating square that is roughly the size of half a tennis court.

• 37:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Yeah, it looks like something you'd take from one island to the next really quickly. It's not like a cruise or a nice boat, it's just like-

• 37:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 37:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Gets you over there.

• 37:40Karen Kilgariff?

  They've got one big sail on the front, it's not down in this picture, but that's where that mast is.

• 37:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Got you with mast.

• 37:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Well, it's, you know, Maren told me.

• 37:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 37:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But for the listener, it's like a big square that's red and white.

• 37:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's essentially like, let's see what happens on this thing as we go across the ocean. Because you'll notice, that middle square is too small for like, individual cabins or anything.

• 38:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It's tight. It's tight.

• 38:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, there's no motor on this.

• 38:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, hence the sail.

• 38:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It is relying solely on the wind and the current.

• 38:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't even know what's happening yet. Tell me everything.

• 38:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 38:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I might not care if we're going just to Mackinac Island for the day.

• 38:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right, just floating around.

• 38:17Georgia Hardstark?

  How long are we gonna be gone for?

• 38:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I'll tell you.

• 38:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell me everything.

• 38:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Dr. Genvez names the raft the Akali, and that's from the indigenous Mexican language Nowatl. And Akali means the house in the water. So the plan is to sail the Akali from the Canary Islands, which is off of Africa's northwestern coast, you knew that, so did I, to Cozumel, Mexico. It's a dangerous, months-long journey-

• 38:43Georgia Hardstark?

  That's far.

• 38:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That spans thousands of miles across the open ocean.

• 38:47Georgia Hardstark?

  There's not enough room for food on that fucking-

• 38:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not a realistic plan. And- but in the very real open ocean. Which I don't know why anyone goes out there.

• 38:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Do a short run first, so that if it goes horribly wrong, you can just turn it around.

• 39:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Don't do- not from the Canary Islands, how about from Cozumel to the neighboring port of fill-in-the-blank that I don't know?

• 39:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I was gonna be so impressed.

• 39:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Wouldn't that have been amazing?

• 39:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. To find participants, Dr. Genvez places ads for volunteers in several international newspapers. About 100 or so people apply, he whittles them down to the final 10. Six women and four men, they represent all different ethnicities, all different nationalities, and all different faiths, they speak different languages. But they do have some things in common. They're all in their 20s and 30s.

• 39:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Hot, they're all hot.

• 39:38Karen Kilgariff?

  They're all hot, for real.

• 39:40Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the original Love Island.

• 39:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It is. This guy was a fucking visionary, and he was trying to be all scientific about it.

• 39:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I know.

• 39:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And what he should have done was been like, and I'll get my Super 8 camera.

• 39:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, do your thing.

• 39:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's sponsored by fucking White Claw.

• 39:54Karen Kilgariff?

  What's 1973? It's sponsored by-

• 39:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Bartles & James.

• 39:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Colt 45.

• 39:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Bartles & James and Virginia Slims.

• 40:01Karen Kilgariff?

  My dad has the most epic Colt 45 t-shirt in this one picture from my childhood. And I realize the reason I love it so much, it's the t-shirt Spicoli is wearing when the robber comes into the 7-Eleven.

• 40:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 40:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Or the Quickie Mart or whatever.

• 40:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That's epic.

• 40:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Back to what's really important here. Hot people on a boat.

• 40:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah.

• 40:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So, these are all the kind of people that are like, oh, sure, I'll do this fun thing. They're either adventurous, or they're looking to make big changes in their lives. Many of them are married and have kids, and all of this is basically intentional choices by Dr. Genvez.

• 40:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, honey, real quick, I know we have children to take care of, but I'm gonna, real quick-

• 40:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just, for fun, for eight to maybe 14 months.

• 40:46Georgia Hardstark?

  They're calling it the sex cruise, but like, not, you know?

• 40:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's scientific, so it's probably more about gender than anything else.

• 40:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's Below Deck meets Love Island.

• 40:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And you don't know what that means, because it's 1973, but you will.

• 40:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Have another Bartles & James while you're pregnant and a Virginia Slim. And I'll see you-

• 41:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And I'll see you when I see you.

• 41:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll see you when that kid's in kindergarten. Basically, Genvez has hypothesized that sex and violence are closely intertwined, so he wants to basically fuel sexual desire, frustration, and tension, and have that be some of the main features of this experiment, right? He's gonna Love Island his own people, and then see what they do.

• 41:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Skeptical face.

• 41:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, so here's the thing, he assigns everyone a job at sea, and he deliberately puts the women in charge. And he is self-proclaimed and has been described as a chauvinist, basically. It's, you know, a kind of real, a superstar of the early 70s.

• 41:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 41:39Karen Kilgariff?

  The raft will be captained by a 30-year-old Swede named Maria. The navigator is 36-year-old American, whose name is Mary. The doctor is a 32-year-old Israeli woman named Edna. And for all matters underwater, like maintenance of the vessel itself, they have a 32-year-old French scuba diver named Servan, who's also a woman. There are two other female participants, an American radio operator named Fay, and an Algerian named Rashida, who conducts a separate study on ocean pollution. So she's a scientist that's also there to do something while at the same time being the subject of an experiment.

• 42:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 42:18Karen Kilgariff?

  At 23 years old, both Fay and Rashida are the youngest volunteers on board. And now, we go over to the men's side. So there's 29-year-old Asuke, he's from Japan, and he is the ship photographer. There's 37-year-old Charles from Greece, who is manning the radios along with Fay.

• 42:34Georgia Hardstark?

  He's the DJ?

• 42:35Karen Kilgariff?

  He's selling the ones and twos. Then there's 34-year-old Jose from Uruguay, who's an anthropologist, and he was also Genvez's former student. And there's also an Angolan priest named Bernardo, and he's been chosen to be there to basically amplify the feelings of guilt or shame around what Genvez is anticipating will be the hot, hot sex happening-

• 42:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuckfest.

• 43:00Karen Kilgariff?

  On this tiny, strange boat. That's

• 43:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Bowls of condoms? Doubt it.

• 43:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, there's nowhere to put them. Because we're on half a tennis court. It's so small.

• 43:11Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so small.

• 43:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course, men serving the supporting roles to the women in leadership roles, that's going to be a problem, according to Genevez.

• 43:19Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 43:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And he claims that he got this idea because of hearing about the women's liberation movement.

• 43:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I was excited, but you paused when you said he's a chauvinist. I thought you were going to say feminist and be like, the only way this will work is if women are in charge, because clearly, men have had their chance for fucking eons and have really, really screwed it up.

• 43:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 43:36Georgia Hardstark?

  No. It's a funny joke on everyone that women are in charge.

• 43:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Or he thinks he's kind of like planting the TNT.

• 43:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 43:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It is an interesting experiment at the end of the day.

• 43:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I still want to make fun of it. Okay.

• 43:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, there's, you got to, there's Dr. Genevez himself, the oldest passenger on board at 49, of course. He mostly wants to date 23-year-old yoga instructors.

• 43:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 43:58Karen Kilgariff?

  He's there to document the results of this experiment with the presumption he will be a neutral participant, obviously.

• 44:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 44:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you can't oversee your experiment and also be involved in it.

• 44:09Georgia Hardstark?

  He's just going to watch the fucking.

• 44:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Write down some stuff.

• 44:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, and here's the group.

• 44:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, they are attractive.

• 44:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at these sexy youngsters.

• 44:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that him with the beard? Look at those tiny little bikini bottoms he's got on.

• 44:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It would make sense. But everybody else is like, I'm seeing sarongs. I'm seeing...

• 44:26Georgia Hardstark?

  They look like the United Colors of Benetton.

• 44:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And also, just on the good days, like, they're out there on this beautiful, open ocean, just like, yeah.

• 44:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're like, I'm away from my kids for three months. I don't give a fuck what happens.

• 44:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It's for science.

• 44:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It's for science.

• 44:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Escaping children for science. And that is Santiago. You were right. Good guess. That was him.

• 44:45Georgia Hardstark?

  As played by Brendan Walsh.

• 44:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Or that Irish guy in Bridesmaids. And he's the nice cop.

• 44:52Georgia Hardstark?

  He's so cute. Yeah.

• 44:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Chris O'Dowd.

• 44:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 44:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Right there in the center. And you're so right. If you want to know who's the troublemaker, just look for the tiny Speedo.

• 45:01Georgia Hardstark?

  He's the only one with gray hair. You know, everyone's young and happy.

• 45:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right. And he's like, where's the hatred? I need it. Okay, so it's May of 1973. The volunteers all traveled to the Canary Islands, and hours before they're set to disembark together, they meet for the first time. So they're all just like, oh, again, are you an adventurer too? I'm also hot. When they board the Akali, they are seen off by a very large crowd that includes members of the international press. So people are following this story. It is already nighttime when the raft is taken by tugboat out into the open ocean and left there.

• 45:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 45:39Karen Kilgariff?

  The volunteers are now just on deck in the pitch black, with the roar of the ocean all around them. No motor, sails away, the experiment has begun. And the water's, of course, rougher than anyone anticipated, so many of the volunteers are immediately seasick.

• 45:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And this is when every...

• 45:58Georgia Hardstark?

  So sexy.

• 45:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, because this is when everyone finds out about the bathroom.

• 46:03Georgia Hardstark?

  What about the bathroom?

• 46:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I'll tell you this right now. Volunteers realize that they have to relieve themselves using a toilet-like contraption built off the back of the raft.

• 46:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh-uh.

• 46:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Out in front of everybody. How? The assumption of a closed-door bathroom.

• 46:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 46:20Karen Kilgariff?

  If it's going to be anything else, you've got to specify.

• 46:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, okay. Turn around can't be the extent of the privacy.

• 46:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Turn around, bright eyes.

• 46:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone turn around, bright eyes.

• 46:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Every now and again, I take a shit.

• 46:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Look away! Look away! Okay.

• 46:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. They also have to bathe, change clothes, all of it out in the open. And while everyone is put off by the fact that there is no privacy, once they get their sea legs, everyone stops throwing up, things actually start to run kind of smoothly. They all know their assignments, and despite speaking different languages, they're communicating well. They get weather reports radioed in every two days. They use those to navigate, of course, and plot the course. And all the while, Genevez regularly makes them fill out questionnaires, or answer questionnaires, to him about the experience. Yes.

• 47:12Georgia Hardstark?

  So Sex Cruise has homework?

• 47:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because this is an experiment, Sex Cruise. So they haven't worked out all the kinks of this Sex Cruise.

• 47:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, not yet.

• 47:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Not yet. Get on that toilet.

• 47:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Get on that kink toilet.

• 47:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Get on that toilet-like toilet. There's nothing scarier in the world than the phrase "toilet-like." That's horrifying.

• 47:31Georgia Hardstark?

  100%. You know things are going to be bad when something is toilet-like, toilet-adjacent.

• 47:35Karen Kilgariff?

  How many nightmares have you had of going to the bathroom out in the open?

• 47:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, in the middle of the mall. I always love, that was always the thing where I'm like, so in my bathroom last night, or in my dream last night, the bathroom, it was my grammar school bathroom, but instead of individual stalls, the toilet was up on a throne. Where you're just like, let's break it down.

• 47:56Georgia Hardstark?

  You're reminding, like, literally the other night I had one. You're reminding me.

• 47:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a common nightmare.

• 48:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It's humiliating.

• 48:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So they start doing the work and just sailing and getting it done. Now we're a month in, and while a couple of the participants have had sex, it isn't happening at the level that Dr. Genevez was hoping it would. And when it does, there's no lingering tension or jealousy or unrequited desire leading to an explosion. Nothing like that is happening. It's chill.

• 48:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 48:25Karen Kilgariff?

  But Genevez is certain that this easygoing energy is going to dissipate as time goes by. But once they're into the month of June, everyone's just still managing fine. They actually tell stories about their lives to keep kind of entertained, because books were not allowed on this trip.

• 48:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, fuck.

• 48:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, basically, you had to interact.

• 48:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:45Karen Kilgariff?

  They also sing songs. Like, they're just doing whatever they can to kind of get through.

• 48:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 48:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Fay, the radio operator, will later say, quote, "We became a very tight tribe." That doesn't happen in normal life, especially when you have so many different cultures, so many different languages, and so many different religious groups. But we became a group, almost like a pod of the same animal.

• 49:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet when you can't speak the same language, it's like more difficult to get into arguments about nuanced stuff like politics and religion, right? Because there's no, you know, the words. I like...

• 49:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Everything is like a smile and a "hey, right? Are we doing this?"

• 49:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. If you had to put people on a sex raft, who would, living or dead?

• 49:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I think mostly dead. So the synergy and lack of drama on the sex boat, on the sex raft, is clearly a problem for Dr. Genevez. It's testing his ability to stay neutral. So now his questions are becoming increasingly more pointed. So he's asking people questions like, who would you get rid of if you could get rid of...

• 49:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, now we're just throwing people off of the boat?

• 49:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 49:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 49:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, who's the most attractive? Like, it's turned into a seventh-grade slam book very quickly, and it still doesn't work. So even though people do answer, and the answers are given...

• 50:00Georgia Hardstark?

  He's getting what he wants.

• 50:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. He's being given the answers, but it's not dredging up the bad feeling that he thinks, or the tension or anything. Things are just humming along.

• 50:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Although there is a problem. The captain, Maria, is becoming very frustrated by how slowly they're moving and basically how shitty this raft is. And she knows that if they can't speed up, they could hit the Caribbean during hurricane season.

• 50:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 50:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Which it could have lethal consequences. So in one of Genevez's questionnaires, Maria tells him that she, quote, "hates the Akali." She hates it. And this is when things start to get tense, because that statement, Dr. Genevez finds very offensive, and he gets really pissed off at her, the captain.

• 50:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Bro.

• 50:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Mary will later say, quote, "Santiago did not want to accept that answer from anybody. He said, 'Our raft is beautiful,'" end quote. So now Genevez is pissed at Maria, and his bitterness begins to simmer. Suddenly, the rudder breaks. So they go from bad to worse. And this is clearly a job for Servan, who is the French female diver, who's just going to go down and fix that rudder. But suddenly, Genevez declares himself the boss and demands to step in and do it himself.

• 51:22Georgia Hardstark?

  He's the problem.

• 51:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 51:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 51:25Karen Kilgariff?

  The whole thing was his idea.

• 51:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Just because you wanted to fuck everyone on the plane that got hijacked, doesn't mean everyone's fucking like you.

• 51:30Karen Kilgariff?

  He's just like, how could I get a 23-year-old to fuck me?

• 51:33Georgia Hardstark?

  How am I going to explain that I really wanted to fuck my seatmate on that hijacked plane who was an 80-year-old woman? How do I...

• 51:39Karen Kilgariff?

  How would one...

• 51:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Justify that.

• 51:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of get it more into the non-judgy...

• 51:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 51:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's okay if you want that area. I know, science.

• 51:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen just never believes in science. That's kind of her thing.

• 51:51Karen Kilgariff?

  So Maria, the captain, will later remember, quote, "Santiago jumped in, but as soon as he got into the water, he had problems. He had a big beard, so his water started to leak into his mask, and he almost drowned. He couldn't do it. We had to drag him back up," end quote. So the women wait until Genevez has fallen asleep and they go fix the rudder themselves. That's a great metaphor for being a woman in 1973.

• 52:19Georgia Hardstark?

  We had to make him think that it just got fixed.

• 52:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:22Georgia Hardstark?

  While he was sleeping.

• 52:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, exactly. The guy with the big beard is gonna get upset.

• 52:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 52:28Karen Kilgariff?

  If you do it better than him. Servain says, quote, "It was a really small job. It was quickly done and we just didn't say anything." You had it word for word.

• 52:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:38Karen Kilgariff?

  But of course, when Genevez wakes up and puts two and two together, he's furious that it was repaired behind his back. And his attitude doesn't improve much into July. He is still not getting the heated social scenarios that he was planning on. And on day 51, when the Akali is about halfway across the Atlantic, he laments the lack of sex and violence taking place on board. He writes in his notes, quote, "I can feel that the group has lost interest in the experiment. They clearly don't understand what I'm trying to do. Instead of supporting me, they behave like a bunch of children and they're getting lazy."

• 53:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 53:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Stop being lazy about casual sex.

• 53:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And anger and violence.

• 53:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, just try to hit somebody.

• 53:19Georgia Hardstark?

  You're not doing what I'm trying to get you to naturally do.

• 53:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. You don't have these instincts and I'm furious. Okay, so now we're in August. It's day 84 of this trip and the Akali reaches the Caribbean. It's just a few weeks away from their expected kind of arrival date in Mexico, their ETA. And around this time, the crew learns that some newspaper reports on the experiment have been gaining traction since they first left the Canary Islands. They learned that the majority of the coverage has gone with the nickname, "The Sex Raft," or "The Raft of Love." And this sends Genevez into a spiral. He writes in his notes, quote, "What if the experiment doesn't lead to anything and I risked all of our lives for nothing? I can feel that the others are starting to sense my insecurity.

• 54:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I am tired and sad and I feel completely misunderstood."

• 54:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Boo, cry into your beard.

• 54:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Shave that beard, maybe.

• 54:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Cry into your 49-year-old beard.

• 54:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Start all over and just go completely clean-shaven. Of course, he's not gonna keep those feelings in his diary and say, "Hey, you know, just be a bigger person and keep zip it." Instead, he decides to call an all-hands meeting where he reads answers aloud from everyone's past questionnaires.

• 54:31Georgia Hardstark?

  You little bitch. What a fucking diva.

• 54:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And guess what, Georgia?

• 54:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Who do you think said this?

• 54:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Faye wants you off this raft. And she said she's better looking than you. Like, he's asking questions that he can only get fucked up answers from.

• 54:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 54:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So he's like, "Everyone, sit down. You're gonna hear some bad news. Get ready." Who finds who attractive, who finds who annoying, who wants whom banished to the deepest depths of the ocean?

• 55:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 55:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Who's a slut, etc. That's all me at the end. But here's the thing about this team. They don't care.

• 55:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:08Karen Kilgariff?

  He tells them.

• 55:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, this is your experiment. Like, you banded them together because they have one common enemy.

• 55:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 55:13Georgia Hardstark?

  You are being a little bitch and like also the time period of like this whole generation that's like summer of love and like accept people. He's basically doing a generational fucking experiment where his old ass is.

• 55:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on, where's that hate that we used to love so much back in the 30s?

• 55:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone can have.

• 55:32Karen Kilgariff?

  We're doing our best to get rid of that shit. Also, my thing is, did he go through, did he have like a translation book for every language on that? It's like, "And now the bad news in French. And now I translate for you." Okay, so it doesn't faze this team. They truly are BFFs. So, Genevez won't quit. Servain, the French diver, later says, quote, "He was provoking situations for something to happen. Santiago only had ulterior motives. He really wanted things to happen," end quote. Which is like, it is his experiment and he is the scientist, but he's not letting it go.

• 56:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 56:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Mary, the American navigator, remembers, quote, "One time Santiago threw a bucket of water at my face. It was like shock treatment," end quote. Yes.

• 56:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Little bitch.

• 56:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And Faye, the other American, who was just one of two black people on board, adds, quote, "He called me a primitive, a thief, lazy. All the stereotypes he threw at me," end quote.

• 56:33Georgia Hardstark?

  He's, "You're the problem."

• 56:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, he's trying to be the problem because no one else will be the problem, because no one else needs to be the problem because there isn't a fucking problem.

• 56:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 56:41Karen Kilgariff?

  We know these people.

• 56:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:42Karen Kilgariff?

  But all of his insane behavior, of course, just bonds the group tighter. And against him, Edna, the Israeli doctor, will say, quote, "Before Akali, Santiago said that out at sea, we would be freer than ever before. Then at sea, he started behaving like a dictator," end quote.

• 57:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, amazing.

• 57:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So this is when they get the news that there's a tropical storm, a bruin in the Caribbean. They're rightfully terrified, everybody except for Genevez, who writes, quote, "I can't help but feel excited. A dangerous hurricane might be exactly what we need for the experiment to evolve," and quote.

• 57:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Let me go, grandpa.

• 57:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's his last chance. Then it's all justified.

• 57:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:25Karen Kilgariff?

  His weird outdoor toilet. As captain, Maria understands that everyone's lives are in her hands. So she announces that she will steer the Akali to the nearest Caribbean island to ride out this storm. But Genevez intervenes, insisting that they stay on course. He argues going into port would contaminate the experiment. And he tells everyone, quote, "For the sake of science, we must continue no matter what," end quote.

• 57:51Georgia Hardstark?

  No, thank you.

• 57:53Karen Kilgariff?

  What happens next goes very fast. Maria refuses to comply with that, saying that the safety of the crew must take priority over this experiment. And Genevez then fires her and says, quote, "From now on, I am the captain."

• 58:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Tie him up and put him on like a dinghy, like traveling along.

• 58:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. This is the classic Southwestern Airlines electrician's tape around the mouth and then around the seat. So as he's making this announcement, basically storm clouds are gathering in the skies above the ship. The sky has now gone dark. Raindrops begin to fall and the waves start getting bigger and higher. So it truly is like when they make the movie of this.

• 58:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:35Karen Kilgariff?

  This whole thing where he's like, "No, I am the captain," and his eyes go all crazy.

• 58:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 58:41Karen Kilgariff?

  A storm is a bruin. They now realize it's too late to argue about this. The team braces for the worst, but somehow the storm makes a miraculous change of course and the Akali is spared. So everything kind of settles back down, but of course, the emotional and psychological damage has already been done. Maria is so furious that she cannot even look at Genevez. And she later says, quote, "I was angry and sad and depressed. I mean, there is a really special law at sea and this, what Santiago did to me, was mutiny."

• 59:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:14Karen Kilgariff?

  A mutiny. The penalty is death," end quote.

• 59:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 59:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So we're getting, we're getting somewhere. Now they're in the last stretch of the journey and Genevez has ironically become not a dispassionate observer of the group's tension, but the absolute center of it. Isuke, one of the men, will say, quote, "His psychological violence was difficult to bear. It was very hard on me," end quote. So it goes from bad to worse. And it gets so intense, the group actually has a meeting one night while Genevez is sleeping and they discuss killing him.

• 59:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 59:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he's so bad. They entertain throwing him overboard, maybe giving him an overdose of medicine that's on board. Faye will later remember, quote, "You could feel the electricity start. We were thinking it all together at the same time and having the same thought, should we do it? Should we do it? Should we do it? Murder."

• 1:00:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, wow.

• 1:00:13Karen Kilgariff?

  He's pushing them to this meeting, basically.

• 1:00:15Georgia Hardstark?

  He's figured something out with his science experiment, but not what he fucking wanted to do.

• 1:00:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, right, because he wanted them to murder each other, not him.

• 1:00:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so crazy. So before any of that can even be entertained in a real way, another bigger emergency arrives. Volunteers working the overnight steering shift one night realize the raft is in the direct path of a massive freighter and the freighter can't see them and it is not responding on the radio. And if they can't change course in the Akali, they will almost certainly be sucked underwater and crushed by this massive ship.

• 1:00:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:00:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is my fear and why I have never seen Titanic.

• 1:00:58Georgia Hardstark?

  That doesn't happen.

• 1:01:00Karen Kilgariff?

  But at the end, when it's going down and there's.

• 1:01:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Sucked down, people.

• 1:01:03Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so big.

• 1:01:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Those volunteers wake everyone up. Panic consumes the group, especially Genevez, who Isuke describes as, quote, "Just running around on the raft shouting 'oy, oy' loudly." So he's the captain, right? Maria takes over and she does what any captain would. She restores a sense of calm and then she orders everyone to light and wave flares on the deck. At the very last minute, the freighter spots the Akali and is able to change course and misses them just barely.

• 1:01:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:01:37Karen Kilgariff?

  After this very embarrassing public failing during a near disaster, Genevez becomes a different person. He's deflated, lethargic. He holes up in his cabin for the remaining days of the trip, claiming he's sick, but no one buys it. And they're happy that something has finally shut him up. But from Genevez's notes, it's clear he's developed some self-awareness, writing, quote, "I realize that the only one who has actually shown any kind of aggression or violence on the raft is me."

• 1:02:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Can we, let's more of this, please.

• 1:02:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not that hard.

• 1:02:09Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:02:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not that bad.

• 1:02:10Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:02:11Karen Kilgariff?

  You can do it. In the end, the group's anger towards Genevez never once manifests into physical violence, not once. Isuke will later say, quote, "What was so great about our group is that we didn't do that. We all held back and kept the peace because the group communicated well. I'm happy that no blood was spilled," end quote. Me too. On August 21st, 1973, after spending 101 days at sea, 101 days on one side of a tennis court with waves.

• 1:02:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and no sunblock, by the way. There's no way.

• 1:02:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And no bathroom stalls.

• 1:02:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:02:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And no sunblock. No. The only one, my dad had sea and ski back in 1973, but that was it. The Akali, after all this time and all those days, safely arrives in Mexico. And despite everything that's happened, it's actually a bittersweet ending with Servan saying, quote, "I could have stayed another three months at sea if it hadn't been for my children and other obligations."

• 1:03:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Remember that? Remember that?

• 1:03:14Karen Kilgariff?

  They must be so loud. I could have carried on living under these conditions for sure. For some, it's back to the same house, the same family, the same job when it's all over. But others reroute themselves entirely, leaving their old routines and setting out on a new path. And for his part, Genovese publishes his findings on the Akali experiment, concluding that humans don't inherently turn to violence in intense, claustrophobic, and dangerous situations. Though these findings mostly land with a whimper and won't become foundational scientific texts by any stretch of the imagination. But Dr. Genovese continues to study peace and aggression for the rest of his long career. For what it's worth, Marin notes here, modern observers

• 1:03:58Karen Kilgariff?

  have criticized Genovese's methods on the raft as heavy-handed, unscientific, and psychologically harmful. But it doesn't seem like any of that got much attention at the time because the study itself had been reduced down to the sex raft.

• 1:04:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:04:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So that's all anybody kind of wanted to know about it.

• 1:04:16Georgia Hardstark?

  There could have actually been something taken from it.

• 1:04:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Yeah. So in 2018, when the Akali group is brought back together for the production of the documentary, The Raft.

• 1:04:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:04:25Karen Kilgariff?

  The fondness that they had felt for each other during the experiment is palpable. Some of them, of course, unfortunately, had passed away by the time the filming started, including Dr. Genovese himself, who died in 2013 when he was in his late 80s. But volunteer Fay encapsulates the entire experience best when she suggests that Genovese's obsession with creating friction almost caused him to miss the whole point of his own experiment, which, again, had the lofty goal of studying how world peace might be achieved. Fay says, quote, "We could talk to each other with sophistication and depth and understanding and love, and isn't that the answer to violence? It was the opposite of violence. It was true peace.

• 1:05:08Karen Kilgariff?

  He was so focused on the violence and the conflict, but he had it right in his hands. Because all over the world and all the conflicts, it's always them and us. And we started out them and us, and we became us."

• 1:05:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:05:23Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote. And that's the story of the sex raft, AKA the Akali Expedition.

• 1:05:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:05:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a very timely lesson about I will just make the metaphor, the raft is the internet and the hatred that that guy's trying to churn up is all those fake bots and all the bullshit

• 1:05:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And the trolls.

• 1:05:44Karen Kilgariff?

  People love to fall for.

• 1:05:45Georgia Hardstark?

  The trolls and then the what? The rage baiting?

• 1:05:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And the dead internet theory, which is that it's a lot of it's fake.

• 1:05:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:05:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just a bunch of fake shit.

• 1:05:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. And you're good. So you're gonna do that next time. I'm gonna do Murder Kroger next time. We're gonna, that can be so of the time.

• 1:06:00Karen Kilgariff?

  We're gonna be so good at podcasting pretty soon.

• 1:06:02Georgia Hardstark?

  So soon. But until then, thank you, guys, for listening.

• 1:06:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sexy.

• 1:06:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:06:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:06:10Speaker 07

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:06:19Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 1:06:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Our managing producer is Molly Smith.

• 1:06:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Our consulting producer is Kate Schellbach.

• 1:06:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Our creative lead is Allison Agosti.

• 1:06:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Our associate producer is Tessa Hughes, and our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:06:31Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:06:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Marin McLaughlin and Ally Elkin.

• 1:06:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected] and follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:06:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:06:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Or watch new episodes every week on Netflix. Search for My Favorite Murder, add us to your list, and hit the double thumbs up button.

• 1:06:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:07:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:07:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the beach club at Bimini.

• 1:07:15Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:07:32Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:07:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 1:07:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:07:40Speaker 00

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• 1:08:25Speaker 00

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