Jocko Underground: You're Going Somewhere. Are You Going Where You Want to Be Going?

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number four, with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Also joining us, Good Deal Dave.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  Good evening, Dave. All right, let's get into the topic of the day. So I know I, we recorded a podcast earlier today about the Marine Corps document and called competing. And I know I kind of threw some stuff at you today, kind of in that opening, talking about this, this leadership and influence continuum. So I had neck issues, my neck, my neck. I had, I had a problem with my neck. I had, well, I woke up one day, this was years ago. I woke up one day and I couldn't move my right arm, didn't move. So, so imagine that you wake up and you can't move your right arm.

• 0:56Jocko Willink?

  Had some, so went to the doctor and they started figuring out what to do because I had basically some problems in my neck. That was causing friction on the nerves that control my right arm. So I had to do some physical therapy and eventually it said, they said, you know, you're going to need to get surgery to fix this problem. Okay. So they gave me basically two options. Well, one option was don't get surgery and

• 1:28Jocko Willink?

  you're, the longer it's in this condition, the worse chance it has of recovering. So that's not good. But you can do it if you don't want to take any chances of getting surgery. So they gave me two options. So one was called a frame anotomy, which they go in through the back of your neck. And they basically chip away at some bone and they give the, they give some breathing room for your nerves. The other one they gave you is, the other option they gave is to get a fusion where they go in the front of your neck. And they basically carve a bunch of bone out and then they fuse your neck together so that it can't move. That one is considered to be the, has, has a superior result most of the time.

• 2:14Jocko Willink?

  It's also the last, it's also the last resort. It's also, you can't escalate from there.

• 2:21Jocko Willink?

  The other one, if you, let's say you got the frame anotomy, the one going through the back and it didn't go well. Oh, it didn't have the impact that you wanted it to have. Well, then you could go, well, it didn't really work the way I wanted to. Now I want to get the other one. So you at least had one more option.

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  So as I considered this, actually, there was, there's, you, you talk through the possible problems that you could have. One of the problems, and this was back in the day. So one of the problems that you can have when you get a fusion going through the anterior of your neck, the front of your neck, when they're going in there, they're close to your vocal cords and they can cut your vocal cords and you can't talk anymore. Which, back then, I was, I mean, it's kind of scary to think now, since the only thing I do for a living is talk. That would not have been cool. And I was thinking at the time, well, I, I'm in a leadership position. I need to be able to talk to people. That, that could be a problem. Also, there's, you can die, you know, you can, they can just screw up and you can just paralyze you or they can kill you.

• 3:22Jocko Willink?

  So as I'm talking through the, the doctor, who was the best neurosurgeon in the milit, in the Navy on the West Coast at the time, he was a really skilled guy. And, you know, he said, so you could die, you this and that. And I said, yeah, you know, what are the chances? I mean, what are the chances? I said, how many, how many sides are on that dice, though? And I said, like 10,000? And he goes, about 200. And I said to myself, that's, okay, not exactly what I wanted to hear.

• 3:54Jocko Willink?

  But then I told him, I said, hey, listen, if I can, if my friends can get hit with giant pieces of shrapnel flying through the air and live, I'm sure you with a scalpel on a sterilized surgery table, you can make this happen.

• 4:10Jocko Willink?

  And so I ended up choosing the frame anotomy to go in through the back. And the main reason why I chose it is because you can escalate from there. I had room to maneuver, right? There was someplace to go. If the fusion, front fusion doesn't get the desired result, you're just stuck with no, with, with that. That's what you're stuck with. So we don't want to paint ourselves into a corner.

• 4:39Jocko Willink?

  As far as I can tell, I never want to paint myself into a corner. I never want to leave myself without any options. I don't want to dig in to a particular position.

• 4:50Jocko Willink?

  I don't want to be in a situation that I can't get out of. And this is why it's such a strange thing, because that should be your attitude, as far as I'm concerned. I don't know. In my opinion, your attitude should be, I don't want to be stuck in a position. You should feel, you should feel wrong if you're trapping yourself in a position. Which is weird, because there's a counter to that, which is you have to be super determined, right? You have to be, you have to be super determined. In order to move forward through tough challenges, you've got to be determined. So you've got to balance that thing between being very determined, but at the same time wanting to keep an open mind about what your options are. Want to have both those things kind of going on.

• 5:35Jocko Willink?

  And I think for me, a lot of this boils down to

• 5:40Jocko Willink?

  thinking strategically versus thinking tactically.

• 5:46Jocko Willink?

  We want to start thinking strategically instead of thinking tactically. Which, everyone knows this, or you should know this. We shouldn't be doing things that benefit us in the short term if they don't benefit us in the long term as well. They're not worth doing. Sure, are there some little things, hey, it's got a little benefit, so I'm going to do it right now. It's no, there's no strategic harm or whatever, okay, fine. But I'm talking as a habitual way of living. We don't want to do a bunch of things that are beneficial to us in the short term that hurt us in the long term.

• 6:22Jocko Willink?

  I mean, just think about your habits as a human being. Between, if you decipher or you discriminate between, this is good for me long term, this is only good for me short term. You could make so many decisions and they'd be awesome if you did things only that were good for you in the long term. And not just things that are good for you in the short term, but they're bad for you in the long term. The goal, of course, is great when you have something that's good for you in the short term. Good for you in the long term, super great. That's a no brainer. We don't even need to talk about that one. But how do we, how do we actually start

• 6:54Jocko Willink?

  thinking in a way that we can think about the bigger picture? That we can think strategically instead of thinking tactically?

• 7:06Jocko Willink?

  Obviously, you gotta keep your ego in check because we chase little tactical victories all the time. We we chase little tactical victories all the time. When it comes to leadership, right? Okay, do we chase a donut because a donut tastes good? Sure, we do that. That's a strategic strategic loss. It's a tactical win. Yeah, it tastes good. I feel good for 28 minutes after I eat a donut. And then after 32 minutes, I feel like a loser.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  It's actually probably less than that.

• 7:33Jocko Willink?

  Could even be less than that.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  25 seconds, 28 seconds.

• 7:37Jocko Willink?

  28 seconds, you feel like bad.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, after the you figure, once it's down, it's almost immediate, really, just face it. As far as donuts go.

• 7:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, good point. Good point. But we do it. People do it. I mean, whole, whole swaths of society make that decision. That's gonna feel good right now, even though they know they can start their stopwatch and 28 seconds from now, we're gonna feel bad about it. So that's the that's an extreme example. It's an extreme example. But do you think about something that there's a little less negative immediate impact? Maybe skip an workout. Maybe I'm gonna, maybe I'm gonna win this argument. Now, I can't think strategically because my ego is a problem.

• 8:26Jocko Willink?

  Because I want to win the argument. I want to prove that I'm right so badly that I will, I will detract from our relationship. I'll move things in the wrong direction, but I win this tactical moment because of my ego. Which is crazy to think that we would actually do that. And we do it all the time. People do it all the time. So how do we, so how do we start moving towards strategic thinking instead of short term tactical thinking? Obviously, you gotta get your ego in check. The second thing you gotta do is you gotta get up to altitude. You gotta get up to altitude where you can see more than just this donut or just this argument.

• 9:08Jocko Willink?

  You gotta get up to altitude. And what you have to be able to do a little bit is you have to be able to see into the future.

• 9:15Jocko Willink?

  So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is, free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections,

• 10:00Jocko Willink?

  better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you, it's jockounderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.