Casey Neistat’s Absolute Disregard For Failure — And the Imperative to Define Your Own Path

This week marks the return of my friend Casey Neistat to the podcast. Where to even begin… As a filmmaker credentialed with co-creating an HBO series and laurels from prestigious outlets like Cannes, Sundance and the Independent Spirit Awards, one would expect an artist of his pedigree to be directing feature films, documentaries and television shows for mainstream media. And yet sometime around 2010, Casey opted for the road less travelled, putting the traditional filmmaker path in his rearview to blaze a different and quite surprising path more in alignment with his DIY sensibilities: YouTube. The great irony is that in embracing the most democratic of platforms as his primary artistic outlet, Casey has indeed become one of the most compelling and culturally relevant voices of his generation. From his sensational “Make It Count” (my fave) to his poignant “What Would You Do with $25,000?” to his gleeful “Snowboard NYC”, Casey has logged over 129 million YouTube views, compelling Wired Magazine to remark, “Casey Neistat’s bite-size Internet movies have so much viral potential they make influenza jealous.” Let's not even get into his continent-sized following on Snapchat (check out his ancillary Snap Stories YouTube Channel ), or the fact that he recently began posting a daily vlog so stellar, suddenly every other vlogger looks remedial. Putting out a volume of content that would rival a major network, Casey Neistat is truly a do-it-yourself triumph — famed and fêted for unceasingly documenting his life, globe-trotting adventures and myriad curiosities with boundless perspicacity and bootstrapping panache. So what is it exactly that makes Casey's work so irresistible? Maybe it's simply because he knows how to tell insanely great personal stories. Perhaps it's his rapier-like knack for tapping the zeitgeist pulse. His fidelity to authenticity. Or his expertise when it comes to connecting emotionally with a signature style that always leaves you yearning for more. If you ask me what sets Casey apart, it's something else entirely: an absolute disregard for failure. That, and a profound work ethic. He makes it look easy, but make no mistake: Casey Neistat works way harder than you do. No, you can't have his life. But you can have your own. To echo Casey, if you are doing it like everyone else, you're doing it wrong. So stop following the heard. Define your own path. It was a treat to once again drop in on his singular Lower Manhattan studio — “one of the most compulsively organized, ridiculously customized, and mind-bogglingly gear-saturated spaces on Planet Awesome” — and I am pumped to share this conversation with one of the most interesting, creative, prolific — and in my opinion important — visual artists working today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

  Eating well rarely falls apart because of one big failure. It's the daily question that wears you down. Like, what am I actually going to make tonight? What's in the fridge? And it's exactly why we built the Plant Power Meal Planner. It's a personalized, plant-based meal planning program that matches you with recipes based on your taste, your allergies, your cooking skills, and how much time you actually have. You build, through this program, a balanced, nutrient-dense plan for your entire household in a few minutes. Then it generates a grocery list for you with one click that plugs right into our delivery partners. All the recipes in the program are built by dietitians with culinary training. Plus, you get your own food coach to help you problem-solve along the way.

• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  It's always the struggles that define you in life. Look back at your life, whether you're 13 years old or 80 years old, and it's always the hardest times that made you who you are, not the easiest times.

• 1:15Rich Roll?

  That's filmmaker Casey Neistat, this week, on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:33Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. I am Rich Roll, fearless leader of this intrepid podcast, and we are on a mission. And that mission is to help you live and be better. So each week, I sit down for a Vulcan mind meld with the best and the brightest across all categories of life, health, and in this case, creativity and excellence, always excellence, as a means to help you unlock and unleash the best, most authentic version of yourself on the world at large. So, thanks for subscribing to the show on iTunes. Thank you for spreading the word. Thank you for subscribing to my newsletter, for clicking through the Amazon banner ad

• 2:18Rich Roll?

  at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. And thank you for picking up a copy of our new book, The Plant Power Way, out in bookstores everywhere this week. So exciting. Hey Julie.

• 2:30Speaker 02

  Hi Rich.

• 2:31Rich Roll?

  Julie's joining me for the intro.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Hi, I'm Julie Piatt.

• 2:35Rich Roll?

  How's it going?

• 2:36Speaker 02

  It's going great, actually.

• 2:37Rich Roll?

  My wife and mother of my children and co-author of our new book.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  That's right. Awesome.

• 2:42Rich Roll?

  How are you feeling?

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Feeling really great, actually.

• 2:45Rich Roll?

  By the time people listen to this, the book is going to be out. So this is like a super huge week for us.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Wow, it's a good thing I practiced yoga this morning.

• 2:53Rich Roll?

  Are you calm?

• 2:54Speaker 02

  I'm calm. I'm in the zone.

• 2:56Rich Roll?

  There's a lot of activity going on right now.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  And I'm feeling very loved and very supported.

• 3:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's a lot of support out there. Right now, we are at number 43 on Amazon of all books.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  You guys, that's amazing.

• 3:09Rich Roll?

  Which is so crazy, right? Of all books, of all books being sold, there's only 42 other books that are like...

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Of all categories.

• 3:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, all categories.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  That's so crazy.

• 3:19Rich Roll?

  Which is insane. And it's even more insane because we have not had one iota, not one shred of national media coverage.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  This is true.

• 3:29Rich Roll?

  The Today Show hasn't called.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  They don't want us.

• 3:31Rich Roll?

  Good Morning America said, you know, maybe not so interested. You know, all the kind of like national magazines, all that kind of stuff. We don't have any of that. But you know what we have?

• 3:42Speaker 02

  We have you guys.

• 3:43Rich Roll?

  We have a microphone. And we have you guys. So this is really a testament to the true power of community, to rally behind an idea that people want to support. And we just feel so loved by all of you guys who have risen up and shown your support for all the work that we're trying to do and what we're trying to put out to the world. So thank you so much for rising up.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and for being, just for being a part of the community and actually, you know, being a part of affecting the change through, you know, collective intention and consciousness and, you know, just will to, you know, shift the status quo and also just, you know, support another human being. And we would not be standing here without any of you. And we are just filled with gratitude. And we do not take any percent, any just moment of any of this for granted. And so just thank you so much for coming out and for supporting us. We feel just immensely blessed.

• 4:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's really cool. I mean, this is the power of the internet, right? I mean, we're able to connect with people all over the world through the work that we're doing through this podcast and social media and to be able to, you know, affect people in a way where they want to support what we're doing. I mean, this is really, yeah, we have a book coming out. We want it to be successful. It would be amazing if it hit the New York Times Bestseller list. It's definitely a goal, but, but, you know, this is more, this is much more than that. It's, it's, it's much more than us or this book. It's about a movement, you know? It's like, America needs help. People are sick. We need better lifestyle options and, and, you know, pathways to access a healthier, better version of ourself. This is our little offering, you know, in that conversation. And to see

• 5:30Rich Roll?

  people say, yeah, you know, we do need more of this. Like, let's support this. And then, you know, in turn, you know, we'll support somebody else who's doing something similar. And it's just amazing. You know, it's just amazing, the power of social media and the podcast and everything that we're doing, that, that we could be sitting in this place. It's a very privileged place to be. I don't take it for granted. It comes with a great deal of responsibility, and I'm just extremely grateful.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and also to know that, you know, what we are sharing and our transparency and, you know, our, you know, courage and maybe foolishness to, to be so open about our lives and about our relationship and about our family and, and to know that it is inspiring and it's giving people, you know, something to hold on to as they go through their own transformation. I mean, I think this week was, you know, in addition to having just the most amazing support and, you know, rallying from all of you from the Plant Power community. And we also received some of the most deeply, you know, profoundly touching emails of people going through, you know, true life challenges, you know, serious, serious stuff, you know, life or death and, you know, wanting to connect with

• 6:38Speaker 02

  us deep, you know, more deeply. And, you know, the book is, it's not just a cookbook. It is basically a window into our life. We have shared as transparently and as openly in this book as we do on the podcast. And, you know, our hope is that you feel As if we have invited you into our home and we've saved a spot for you at our family table. And so, anyway, I feel mighty with all of your support. We feel mighty with all of your support.

• 7:12Rich Roll?

  Such an exciting week. So, thanks you guys. And on the subject of emails that we get, I thought I would read a fan email that came in. Thinking about making this kind of like a regular.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Could be great, yeah.

• 7:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, this is a guy called Matt. I'm not going to use his last name because he sent me, you know, I don't know that he didn't say that I had permission to read it, so I'm not going to give you his last name. But he sent a really nice letter that I'm just going to read. And he goes like this. "Rich, I owe you a great deal of thanks. I started listening to your podcast a few months back and it has changed my life." And that is not hyperbole, brother. "Not only does your story just resonate with me, we have walked similar paths, but you have inspired me to pursue my dreams. I do not think the same message from someone else would have rung so true in my ears. It is all about the way in which you articulate your thoughts and ideas. It is so skillful and elegant, my man.

• 8:06Rich Roll?

  Your words come through the earbuds with such clarity, and you have this incredible skill for distilling the ideas of others into digestible pieces which just make sense. Well done and keep up the excellent work." So, that's really cool. Thank you, Matt, for that very nice letter. It feels really good to know that what we're putting out is connecting in that kind of way, you know? Not just in a perfunctory kind of, "Oh, that was a fun podcast," but that actually people are getting something out of it and implementing it into their lives for the better.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was beautiful. Beautifully said.

• 8:42Rich Roll?

  And on the subject of the power of community and the internet and kind of trying to get a message out outside the typical channels of mainstream media like television, we have a special guest this week, my friend Casey Neistat.

• 8:59Rich Roll?

  I can call him my friend, I think.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  I think so. I think he's my family's favorite filmmaker. And that extends down to our little girls, Mathis and Jaya are big Casey fans.

• 9:08Rich Roll?

  Right. Casey's awesome. He is, if you're not familiar with who Casey is, he is the impresario of YouTube. He is the king of Snapchat. He's pretty much a social media maven. This guy puts out content through YouTube, through Snapchat, through Instagram, through all his social media channels that is just so, it's hard to describe. He shares himself authentically and very transparently. And there's just something about the quality of his content and the message that he's putting out that really resonates with me. I've been a fan for a long time. I did a podcast with him. It must have been a year and a half ago or so. So, we're going to sit down with him and hear a little bit from him in a minute.

• 9:53Rich Roll?

  And this is a guy who is super smart. He's an insightful cat. He's got a gigantic imagination. He's got a huge work ethic, which I respect. And he just has a cool perspective on life, work, entrepreneurship. And if you're not on to his vibe, you should be. So, we'll get more into Casey in a second, but first...

• 10:21Rich Roll?

  Okay, on to today's guest, Casey Neistat. How would you describe Casey?

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Your inspiration in who you want to be?

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  You know, it's so funny. No, I don't want to be Casey. I love what he does and I love following him. And what's funny in the conversation, he talks about how much he hates that word, inspiration.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  He does. Sorry, Casey. I haven't met you yet. Sorry to bum you out.

• 10:43Rich Roll?

  He is inspiring, but I don't think that he really enjoys that mantle. And he doesn't like the idea of inspiration. He's all about work ethic and following through. And that's kind of what we talk about today.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, really what I think is, what I see from him is, I see that he was sort of a differently oriented child and... Somehow he had something within him that allowed him to respect himself and kind of go his own way and he made that decision and that's served him well.

• 11:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  So he's definitely unique.

• 11:14Rich Roll?

  It is inspiring, sorry Casey.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  Sorry Casey.

• 11:16Rich Roll?

  To see somebody who kind of didn't fit the mold and went out and blazed his own trail and through a tremendous amount of hard work because people look at him and his life in his studio and they want to be him and I don't think that they see how hard this guy works like he is a workhorse, you know, and I have a lot of respect for that. And his whole thing is like, I don't care about ideas, I care about execution, I care about follow-through and that's kind of what he represents and he's just constantly putting out amazing videos on YouTube. He does a Snapchat story every single day. I think he's the best thing on Snapchat and he's just an artist with a ton of creative energy telling really relatable, personal stories to help us all kind of access and find the

• 11:59Rich Roll?

  adventure in life, you know, this idea of above all investing in experience, which I really like and, you know, to be bold, to do more, which is his sort of ethos that is tattooed on his forearm. It says do more on his forearm. I first became aware of him in like 2010. He had a television show on HBO called The Neistat Brothers that he did with his brother Van that was produced by a guy that I went to high school with, Tom Scott. It was a really cool show that kind of revealed his DIY sensibility and he's gone on to work with huge brands like Nike. He made an amazing YouTube video called Make It Count. That's kind of legendary on YouTube. I'll embed that in the show notes on the

• 12:42Rich Roll?

  episode page for this episode. And then he made another really cool video. That's one of my favorites, which was intended to be a marketing promotional video for the movie, The Secret Life of Walter Mitty. Fox, 20th Century Fox contacted him and said, would you make a video that would help us kind of market this movie? They gave him a budget of $25,000 and instead of making a video about the movie, he went to Tokloban in Southeast Asia and basically took all that money, the $25,000 and put it towards aid to the survivors of the...

• 13:22Rich Roll?

  I want to say hurricane. It wasn't hurricane. It was a typhoon, right, to the survivors there. And that's a very touching, beautiful, beautiful film. When I sat down with him last winter, the next day, he went out and there was a huge snowstorm and he went snowboarding all over New York City. And that was a movie that went viral overnight, which was insane, super fun. And about a month ago, he started a daily vlog, which is basically, he's making a new YouTube video every single day of just kind of what he's doing in his life. And the quality of these is extraordinary, given the fact that he's doing one every single day. And they're quite irresistible. And like you said, our kids love them. Jaya, who's seven, always watches Casey's videos.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  She has Casey's stickers on her computers.

• 14:06Rich Roll?

  She put Casey's stickers all over her laptop.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Better watch out, Casey. She's on your heels.

• 14:10Rich Roll?

  I know. She's getting ready to start her own YouTube channel. I sent Casey a photo of Jaya with the laptop in her lap with all his stickers all over her laptop as she was watching one of his videos that he loved. But it's interesting. It makes you wonder, like, okay, well, what motivated him to suddenly start doing a daily vlog after all this time? And I have a theory about this. And this is pure speculation. But Casey is in the process of starting a new business. And he's been very cagey about, you know, what it is. He hasn't said anything publicly about what this new business is. It's all very hush-hush. He's been spending a lot of time at MIT, at the Media Lab there, where he's

• 14:52Rich Roll?

  a fellow. He's been hanging out with a lot of super smart, techie dudes, guys who wear, like, Google Glass. When I ran into him outside his studio, he was with a couple guys. They're all wearing Google Glass. And he's extremely, I think this is something people don't understand, is that he's extremely savvy when it comes to not just social media, but tech hardware and software. He really implicitly understands what works, what doesn't, why, which platforms fall short, why they fall short. And if I had to guess, and again, this is total speculation, I would venture to say that he just might be hatching... Maybe his own new social sharing platform, video-based, of course. I think it's a big idea.

• 15:36Rich Roll?

  Whatever he's working on, I think is big. You know, a platform that would specifically meet his criteria of what would be great because he's very exacting. You know, I don't know. What do you think the name of it would be? I could be totally wrong. Who knows? And it's not like Casey answers this question in the podcast. Before we started, I said, can you talk about your new business? He's like, no, I really can't. You know, no, boy, no, couldn't do it. But I will say this, and we'll get into the interview. I really think that Casey is truly one of the more relevant cultural voices out there right now, and it was really cool to sit down with him once again with this very important caveat. I thought we were going to talk for about 90 minutes, which is my typical podcast interview time.

• 16:19Rich Roll?

  But about 45 minutes into the interview, just as I felt like we were starting to hit a groove, I kind of felt like we got off on a little bit of a disjointed start, but we were kind of just starting to get into it, and I was feeling good about where the conversation was headed. He looks at his watch and he goes, I gotta go. Like, he's just like, I have to leave. I got another meeting. And I was like, what? What do you mean? Like, we're right in the middle of this. So that was a little bit of a bummer, but hey, what are you gonna do? It was fun to be able to spend at least a little bit of time. And as you will hear at the end of the podcast, it sort of comes to a comedic, very abrupt halt at the end. Because he has to do more. You can almost hear me wondering, like, what is going on?

• 17:00Rich Roll?

  So I'm not sure I got the full Casey experience I was hoping for, but nonetheless, it's full of some gems. I think you'll enjoy it. And I'm just sort of preparing you for how it ends. Anyway, I'm gonna go. We're gonna be in New York City again in June. I'm hoping I can pick it up where it left off and go another round with Casey. So what do you say? We step into the incredible Lower Manhattan studio of Casey Neistat. This is a studio that Wired Magazine has called "one of the most compulsively organized, ridiculously customized, and mind-bogglingly gear-saturated spaces on Planet Awesome." And I concur. It's a pretty special place. Casey's a really special guy.

• 17:43Rich Roll?

  So let's step into his world and see what he's all about. Cool? Sounds great.

• 17:55Rich Roll?

  The first time we did this was the day before the original Snowpocalypse. I don't know if you remember, but it was, I was in here and you were getting ready for the big snow and then the next morning is when you went out and made the snowboarding video.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 18:08Rich Roll?

  And then I was back here a month ago and we were gonna do this and that was when we were supposed to get Snowpocalypse 2, right? So you're like, "Sorry, man. No can do on the podcast, I gotta get ready for the snowstorm."

• 18:21Speaker 01

  The irony is that night I had like an entire crew, an entire like movie shoot crew. We had my crazy truck ready to drive around the city after traffic was closed. We went so far as to get a hotel room right next to the studio. That way in the morning, we didn't have to worry about the crew showing up at 5:00 a.m. to get started. We were, could not have been more prepared.

• 18:41Rich Roll?

  So you're gonna go super next level on it?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  I mean, so next level.

• 18:44Rich Roll?

  What were you gonna do?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  The snow just never showed up.

• 18:47Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  You know, I don't like to talk about what I was gonna do. Such a loser.

• 18:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, alright, well, I mean-

• 18:55Speaker 01

  It didn't happen, we gave it our best shot, mother nature screwed us over.

• 18:58Rich Roll?

  And then you had this like really kind of unsatisfying like drive around the city in your Jeep trying to find snow that wasn't there.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  We just wanted to know like, how did they screw it up so bad?

• 19:08Rich Roll?

  It's incredible, right? That in 2015, I mean, is that a reaction to, you know, the hurricane and all of that? Like, everybody was on such incredible high alert, like, this was gonna be, I mean, literally in my hotel, they slid a notice under the door saying, "We're shutting down, you're not gonna get maid service, you better go get groceries, cause everything's gonna be shut down." And I'm like, "Are you telling me that like the guy, the Korean guy in the bodega is not gonna show up? Like, come on, we're in Manhattan."

• 19:33Speaker 01

  The whole thing pissed me off. It made me angry because they shut down the subway system for the first time in 80 years due to snow. And it's just like, that's not what New York City is.

• 19:42Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  It's like, we're not, we can persevere through anything, don't prematurely shut all this stuff down, nothing's happened yet, that's just snow. Like, we were 28 inches in 96, like, the city was fine.

• 19:54Rich Roll?

  The silver lining for me was I got up and I was like, "I'm gonna run the city." Like, and just like, the idea of like running down the middle of Fifth Avenue or Park Avenue with no car, cause there was a ban on like any non-essential cars or transportation being in the city and it was so quiet and you could just- It was kind of a beautiful thing to do that.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  We did that same thing, but in my gigantic eight miles to the gallon monster truck going up Park Avenue.

• 20:17Rich Roll?

  Breaking the law, right? Because you weren't supposed to.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, if you're gonna break the law, you might as well go all the way. So it was like, there were no other cars, so we didn't have to stop at stoplights.

• 20:24Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  And there were no people out. So yeah, we were just, it was, it was fun.

• 20:28Rich Roll?

  I know. So you're gonna have to wait until next year, I guess, for that. So let's talk about Emirates Airlines.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a pretty special experience.

• 20:35Rich Roll?

  I know you're, you're partial to American, but I've been, I went to the Middle East three times in the last year and flying that airline. My only analogy for that is, it's like being on, in like Kim Kardashian's Bentley or something like that.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Look, just to, to qualify my partiality towards American Airlines, it's purely based on like intelligent, considered business considerations. Not any loyalty to the airline because it's a good airline. Like, all US airlines should be ashamed of, maybe the exception of a JetBlue, but they should be ashamed of themselves. At just how atrocious customer service is, at how old and busted their planes are, and how they nickel and dime you for services. It's just a night, I spend my life on airplanes. And every time I travel outside of the States and you experience other airlines where they're just trying, they're trying to do something good.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  So anyways, I don't, I don't know that I'm actually prepared to endorse American Airlines or any other airline.

• 21:34Rich Roll?

  I got you.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Especially while I'm picking on airlines, British Airlines, I think is maybe worse than any even US provider, because they're just so bad.

• 21:45Rich Roll?

  But Emirates is like next level.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  It's pretty, it was a special.

• 21:47Rich Roll?

  It's pretty crazy experience flying on that. Did you see how they have, like, the separate entrance for first class? So that nobody has to even actually interact with those people and they get separate, oh, you do, you were on like a smaller commuter plane, right?

• 22:00Speaker 01

  No, no, it was a triple seven.

• 22:01Rich Roll?

  Oh, was it? Okay.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  But you know, it's not that. Like, I think that.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  I don't think that it's about the amenities. It's for me, it's just about how you're treated as a human being. And when you fly in the States, it's like the attitude that is that is put on you from the airline is like, fuck you, how dare you show up on my airplane. Sit in your seat, yeah, it's sit in your seat, eyes down, and don't you dare talk to me like I'm a person. Like, that's how you're made to feel. You're made to feel like you're doing something wrong. And I find like Emirates is not the only one, but Emirates is certainly like at the top of the list where they like treat you like a human being. They look you in the eye when they speak to you. Japan Airways, the same way, like my, even my kid, he flew on it once and he always brings it up how nice the woman was because she saved his food for him while he was asleep. You know, it's just like they treat you like a human being.

• 22:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  And I don't know why we've drifted so far away from that when it comes to customer service in the States.

• 22:57Rich Roll?

  Well, customer service in general, across all sort of platforms, is the bane of my existence and probably most people. I mean, I think we're in a, we're in a culture right now where we've become sort of subservient to these gatekeepers, a customer service that control our day and our hours and our time spent. So whether you have to call AT&T and change your cell phone plan or whatever it is, you're held hostage by these people for everything that we need to do. And I think that's a different, like, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a new thing.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  It's a new thing. It's, it's, I'm sure it has to do with like bureaucratization of these process, processes. And in any event, it ends up sucking for us. So when you do encounter something that feels like good customer service, it's a lovely.

• 23:45Rich Roll?

  You're amazed, you know, but it should just be that way.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  It should just be that way. Yeah, it's like the difference between flying first class and flying in coach. Isn't that first class is so great? It's just that coach is so bad that it's just like how it should be when they, you know, smile at you and they give you like a terrible microwave plate of spaghetti. Instead of being in the back where you get like, you just get glass eyed and then you get to pay $5.99 for like a pack of M&M's.

• 24:10Rich Roll?

  Right. So how was the experience in the Middle East for you?

• 24:13Speaker 01

  So I was in the Middle East, I was giving a talk in Dubai for Google. And then I was in Doha in Qatar, giving a talk at VCU, which is Virginia Commonwealth University, has a campus over there.

• 24:27Rich Roll?

  It's like their overseas program.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  That's correct. And it's mostly comprised, I think about 50% comprised of actual Qataris.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  And then the rest is sort of people from the region and then there's a very small minority of people from overseas.

• 24:38Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  But it was amazing. It was like an absolutely eye-opening, wonderful experience. The biggest takeaway from me was I was speaking at a design school in Qatar and all the students, the vast majority of students were women, were girls. And the reason why is that design in the Middle East is culturally regarded as more of a feminine profession than a masculine one. And that to me was like the most exciting thing I could ever hear. Cause what that translates to me and what I said to the girls when I was speaking there is that that is opportunity.

• 25:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  That misconception, which is nothing more than a gross misconception because the rest of the world knows that design is absolutely, you know, it's ambiguous. It's not a feminine or masculine practice, but it's something that is, that is, you know, that everyone should be enthusiastic about. So the fact that these girls had this opportunity to me was just like, it was tremendously exciting and something that I was, I was really happy to be a part of.

• 25:35Rich Roll?

  Well, empowering too, in a, in a culture traditionally that is, you know, not so friendly towards, you know, sort of the upward mobility of, of women.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess, you know, I don't understand, I don't understand the culture well enough to really get into the nuances of that, but it certainly is like, you know, a lot of these young girls were, were wearing veils.

• 25:57Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  You know, you couldn't see their face. And I was still chatting them up and hearing about how excited they get about designing a skateboard and the work that they're doing is so uplifting. You know, and then their professor's kind of pulling me aside and they say, you know, a lot of these women culturally, all they've ever been raised as is to, you know, get married and have, have children. And certainly seeing this education that's being, that they now have access to means that there are, you know, more opportunities for them, there are more paths for them. And that's something that was, I don't know, it was tremendously exciting for me.

• 26:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I went, I haven't been there, but I went to Bahrain. I went to three cities in Saudi Arabia. I went to Lebanon, which was cool. Like, I've been to some of that area. And just being, to immerse yourself in that culture, I mean, it couldn't be more different than here, but just absolutely fascinating.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the other thing is so many of the Qatar students there are just inherently very wealthy, just by default. So you have these students there that have no reason, no financial motivation to learn or pursue any profession. And you would think ostensibly that means that they'd be less engaged or not really care. And I found the opposite to be the truth. Like, I found that these students that were from there, especially the ones from affluent backgrounds, were more engaged and more excited about what they were learning and the potential that that might yield than what I've seen almost anywhere else. But in any event, it was really fantastic to have the opportunity to spend time with them.

• 27:27Rich Roll?

  And when you get up and you give these talks, it seems like you're giving more and more talks these days. Like, is it the same talk or what is the message? Like, what's the core, like, thesis of what you're trying to communicate?

• 27:38Speaker 01

  I think you said it right in that there is always one sort of core thesis. And then that, how that's built on is appropriated for each audience. So, you know, in Dubai, speaking on Google's behalf or speaking at a Google event, it's the core thesis. And then what's built around that is how I was able to apply what I do to advertising and how that works on a platform like YouTube. So it's fairly specific. And then speaking with a group of students, it's the core thesis. And then built around that is how to leverage an understanding to build a career. So the core of it is always the same. And then how that story is appropriated is dependent on what the audience is. And what that core is, I guess I would, I would, I would describe that, I would abbreviate that as it's, it's...

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Working in the creative space is to work in a space where there is no defined path. If you want to be a doctor, if you want to be a car mechanic, if you want to be a, you know, if you, if you want to be a butcher, or even want to be a, anything where there is sort of a defined path, here is how you achieve that. You can, you can follow that path, and education's a great way to have access to that path, and you will, provided you do it well, you will succeed in that space. And the exception to that rule is, is anything that's creative. And creative can manifest itself in myriad ways, from filmmaking in my case, to being a painter, to being a sculptor, to being, you know, I think even to being a politician,

• 29:09Speaker 01

  and things like that, you know, and then to being like a chef, and to being a designer, to being an architect. Those are all creative endeavors. And I think the, the key to succeeding in any, in any creative space is that you have to define your own path. And that by default is, is sort of a contrary position to what education is. And I think that young people have expectations when they show up at, at school, at, at university, at college, and they want to be filmmakers, and they want to be artists, and they want to be painters, and they want to be writers, that the school will define that path for them. Here is how you become a successful artist. And the truth is, like, how many students does NYU film graduate every year? And how many people get Oscars every year?

• 29:54Speaker 01

  How many people actually succeed in the film world? And the truth is, education is a tool, is an incredibly valuable tool. Education is, is maybe the most valuable tool to help you find that path, but education alone will not provide you with that path. The same could be said for experience, the same could be said for things like internships and apprenticeships, and the same could be said for having access, and the same could be said for resources and money and the opportunity to travel. The same could be said for owning great cameras, or owning great paintbrushes, or reading a lot of books. Every one of these is a tool that can help you pave that path, but that path is up to you and you alone to define.

• 30:30Rich Roll?

  And it's a, it's a very ephemeral answer, because I think, you know, people don't say, they don't look to a surgeon and say, "Oh, my God, how do I become like you?" You know, the path is sort of self-evident, like, well, these are the steps that you take to, you know, sort of fulfill that role, but... I'm sure not a day goes by where people aren't, you know, asking you like, how do I, how do I have the life you have? How do I do what you do? They're, they're still looking for that like step-by-step process. And it's sort of an outward-looking perspective as opposed to an inward-looking perspective, like the Werner Herzog model of like, you know, go work in a, you know, go work in a cannery, go like, do something, like have life experiences that can inform the expression of what it is that you're trying to, you know, communicate.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think you said that very, very well. Yeah. And look, part of this is why I always focus on that is it's an expression of my own frustration. Because I get these emails from kids every day, and I don't fault them for sending me these emails.

• 31:30Rich Roll?

  What kind of camera are you using?

• 31:31Speaker 01

  No, not even that. But how do I get to do what you do? And it's like, hard for me, I understand where that's coming from. It's hard for me not to be insulted. As if I could explain to you via an email what it takes, you know, what it took for me to be successful, and this is a path that you could then emulate. Like, this has been a 15-year battle for me, and I'm still feel like I'm standing at the bottom of a mountain staring up. But it's been 15 years of nothing but focus and hard work and determination to have what like, little, little tiny taste of, of success or recognition that I have thus far. But it's certainly not something that's, I would describe as transferable.

• 32:06Rich Roll?

  Looking for the life hack, the hack.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it doesn't exist.

• 32:10Rich Roll?

  How can I shortcut my way to doing what you're doing?

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like, look, there are some, there are some nuggets, some truths in there that I think can help others find their path. And these are generic truths. These are truths that I'm happy to say in front of an audience, but ones that could also appear on like a motivational poster, underneath a picture of a cat hanging by one hand off a branch. But it's, you know, it's things like, in the creative space, if what you're doing, if you're doing it the same way others are doing it, you're doing it wrong. That's a fact. You want to be a designer, an artist, a painter, a filmmaker, if you're following, if you're doing it the way someone else is already doing it, that means you've already failed. You're doing it wrong. If there are a thousand sheep headed south on a road and you jump in line with those sheep and you think that by heading south you're going to find success, like no chance,

• 32:54Speaker 01

  there's no chance. You get to jump out of line and run north. And that's the truth. And then applying that to something that's actionable is where it gets really scary. But those are generic ideas that absolutely help promote discovering one's path.

• 33:08Rich Roll?

  I feel like you have a pretty strong conviction about what you're doing, why you're doing it, and like where you're heading. But there's a juxtaposition of that with kind of being in faith that like if you're just sort of propelling yourself forward and actively engaged in your own creative voice, that it's going to lead you somewhere.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's a really optimistic way of looking at it, maybe even a generous way of looking at it. I think a more, a less romantic perspective on that is like an absolute disregard for failure. Like honestly, who cares? We are, we are like healthy human beings that were born in the United States of America. Like we won the lottery on life. If you look at the history of humanity, if you look back 10,000 years to now, no one has ever, in the history of ever, had it as easy as we've had it. And it's like, what does absolute abysmal failure look like to us? Like, I mean, what is the worst case failure for me

• 34:12Speaker 01

  in everything that I'm doing? It means like I'm dirt poor, I move out of New York City, I live in a trailer park, and I'm on welfare, collecting food stamps to feed my children. Like, that's exactly where I was when I started my career. But that's rock bottom. And that's not such a horrible place. Like, I've handed out morphine in Uganda before to people dying of AIDS. Like, I've been, I've met Afghans in the middle of Afghanistan during a war before. Like, I've had the luxury of being exposed to what true destitution looks like. You know, I've wandered the streets of Takla Ban five days after the worst typhoon in the history of Mother Nature destroyed their life, their lives. Like, that is rock bottom. And we're so far from that. Like, what, my business fails and all of a sudden, like,

• 34:55Speaker 01

  I'm be living on the streets of the Philippines, like with my house destroyed and my family taken away from me? Like, no chance. No, it means like, I don't get to buy a fancy car. And it's like, is that something to fear? Absolutely not.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  So with that, you know, winning Lotto ticket on life, I have a sense of obligation to always take the path of greatest resistance.

• 35:16Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, well, our culture prioritizes security and comfort and relaxation and the easy life. And these are not, you know, these are not good messages, I don't think. And I think the fact that you, you know, had the upbringing that you did and had the experiences that you did where you struggled early on are really gifts that allow you to then really understand that, you know, failure is not that big of a deal. Like it's not going to be that bad. And, you know, Tyler, my son, you met last time he was here. He's not with me on this trip, but he turns 20 tomorrow. And a couple of years ago, like we were having a really hard time. We thought we were going to lose our house. Like we didn't, we were in a weird place where things like were not working very well. But we were

• 35:58Rich Roll?

  trying to kind of do new and different things with our lives, more based on like, you know, the things that I'm doing now and passion and stuff. And, and we went and lived in Hawaii in yurts on a farm for three months on the North Shore of Kauai. And we weren't sure whether we were going to come back to LA or whether we were going to be able to save our house and all these sorts of things. And it was a very tenuous period of time. And Tyler said something to me recently where, it was just a couple of months ago, he's like, "That was the best thing ever." You know, he's like, because I know, like, that was actually an awesome experience and we were together and we did it. And like, if that's the worst, like if I had to go live in a yurt, you know, and basically sleep on

• 36:40Rich Roll?

  a cot, like, so what? That was an awesome time. I had fun. And like, so that informs his perspective of the world, like to take additional risks and to, you know, pursue what's most important to him as opposed to, you know, taking the safe route.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  It's always the struggles that define you in life. Look back at your life, whether you're 13 years old or 80 years old, and it's always the hard times, the hardest times that made you who you are, not the easiest times. And I think knowing that you should pursue the struggle. Like, a really smart friend of mine, friend of yours, Tom Scott, said to me, like, you should pursue poverty in your twenties. And that is such like a valuable piece of information. And what that means is like, you get out of college, you don't take the job that pays you forty-five grand a year, and then take that money and get an apartment and sign a lease for seven hundred dollars a month, and then take that, take that money and like, what's left over, and go lease a brand-new Honda that, that restricts you to three hundred dollars a month. Then you're twenty-three years old, you have all of these bills, you're accruing more

• 37:40Speaker 01

  debt, and like, the handcuffs are set, they're locked, the key's been thrown away. How do you get away from that? Instead, say, screw it, and seek poverty. That way, you can trust that every decision you make is, you make is, is based on a passion and desire to actually do it, not some sort of false financial opportunity that's been ingrained in us, sort of culturally, because I think that's a, that's a cultural misconception. I think that's wrong.

• 38:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I made all those mistakes. And so, when I talk to young people, it's the same thing. It's live lean, invest in adventure.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, because the truth is, you won't always be able to. It's like, if you think your car and rent is restrictive, like, wait till you have kids. Like, wait till you have things that are actually of consequence, not just, not just failure to make payment on your car, but things that are actually of consequence.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  But you said something that I wanted to touch on, when you said culturally, we're sort of taught to pursue comfort, security, and relaxation. And I hate that. I mean, I hate all of those things.

• 38:46Rich Roll?

  But look at any television commercial, any billboard.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  I agree. Like, relaxation's my least favorite thing in the world. I hate it. Like, it's my, my second least favorite thing is vacation. I hate it. Like, the idea of not being productive in life is something that just, like, it, it makes me cringe. And at the risk of sounding overly patriotic or jangoistic, which is not my intention, but like, America, we were built on, like, this generation that came back from war after saving the world, and then became like this, this, this nation of, of workers, that, you know, like, we own manufacturing in the world. We exported more oil and more goods than anywhere else on planet Earth, and like, we did that, like, by working hard. And that was like this wonderful life. Like, that's what defined and built America, was that time after the war.

• 39:35Rich Roll?

  But that also was the birth of the middle class and that's where this idea of like having the good life started to creep in, I think.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Totally, and that's the danger, is that it's not sustainable. You cannot sustain an ethos of hard work and hunger. Hunger is something that goes away the moment you're fed. So how do you, I mean, it's something I struggle with my own kid is like, Owen's seventeen now and he's a wonderful boy and he gets great marks in school and all that, but like I look at him and it's like, shit, I screwed up here. Like I always made sure he's had whatever he wants and he's always felt safe and instead I should have thrown him to the sharks.

• 40:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but he's gone on so many adventures. I mean, he's so worldly compared to most kids his age.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  I'm not worried about him at the least. I just, I know the struggles that I got to experience when I was his age. So there was this girl, I'm digressing right now. I hope that's okay, Rich. There's this girl that I know and she talked to my brother Van and me, this is years ago, she's probably twenty-five, absolutely the most beautiful girl, super rich girl, and she had this like, what do I do with my life thing that she came and talked to Van and me about. And I remember, I don't know if it was Van or it was me who like sort of laid it down or we said, stop taking money from your parents, like close or get away from your trust fund, get a job in a restaurant waiting tables. And she looked at us like, how dare you? That sounds like the worst thing ever.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  And we looked at her like, you want to be a writer, how are you supposed to write if you don't understand life? Like if you have no actual exposure to life, do you know what percentage of people actually get to live this dilettante lifestyle that you've, that is all you know? Like instead get out there, like understand what it means to live. Like when, when Werner Herzog says that the application process for his fictitious film school would be to walk from Paris to Berlin and keep a diary and that diary is your application. I understand where he comes from. And when he says that he won't teach, he won't teach filmmaking in his film school, he'll teach you how to box.

• 41:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  I get that.

• 41:34Rich Roll?

  It's the Hemingway school, you know?

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Oh my god, yeah.

• 41:38Rich Roll?

  So, I mean, this idea of vacation really, I mean, I think that that... When you're doing what you love, when you're actively engaged in your life, you don't feel the need to escape that. You know, but when you're stuck in a job that you hate, you know, that's where the idea of like taking a break or escaping to go to some beach starts to crop in and sound attractive.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I get it. And it's, look, a lot of this, a lot of this diatribe that I'm laying on you right now, like, is risky to say because I think it's really open to misinterpretation and it means that everyone should drop what they're doing and go become an artist and travel the world. And that's wrong. I just think it's about finding what you truly love. And I look at my very best friend through high school, who remains one of my closest friends ever, and he's worked in a restaurant the last seventeen, eighteen years. He still washes dishes one night a week and he has a family and he has a small house and he has a, he has two cars and a big screen TV. But I look at him and it's like, it's hard for me not to look at him and be like, why don't you leave that job and go like, find your passion?

• 42:40Speaker 01

  But the truth is, how passion manifested for him was having this sense of security and having his family and having a wife that he loves and having two children now that he loves watching grow up. And I look at him and he is a guy who's living his dream. And he's very, he's most certainly lower middle class, living in a small house, living in a crowded neighborhood, working in a restaurant. But he's, he's happy most of the time and he's found his dream. So that happiness and that dream can manifest in myriad ways. It doesn't mean you have to be, you know, you have to be traveling the world and jumping off of bridges and being, you know, being sensational. But I just think it's, it's being true to yourself and making sure you're doing something that you do actually love.

• 43:18Rich Roll?

  Right, but I think that that process, like, kind of unpacking, you know, unboxing, like, what is your passion? Like, what is it that gives you a heartbeat? I feel like most people are so disconnected, we're just on a habit trail track, that there's not a lot of emphasis on kind of looking internally to try to understand what that might be. You know, so a lot of people say, oh, I want your life, but they may not really know what it is that is the thing for them. Because that, that takes a little bit of work.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you described it very well. I always say like, in life, you should only be doing one of two things. The first is figuring out what it is you love, what your passion is, and two is realizing it. And the truth is, very, very few people ever do the first thing. Because figuring out is much harder than actually doing it. If you know what you want, you just do it. Like, if you can see those goalposts at the end of the field, you just kick the ball through it, and you've done it. But if there's no goalposts, you have no idea where to go. And what happens is, during that search, you do things like you go to school, you do things like you go on trips, you do things like you find experiences, and you have relationships, and you get dumped, and you have these ups and downs in life. But then what happens is, is life takes over. And you, all of a sudden, you're not a student, and all of a sudden, you have obligations, and all of a sudden, you have bills, and all of a sudden, you have a wife, and then all of a sudden, you have kids. And all of

• 44:35Speaker 01

  a sudden, you're 43 years old, and you've got a mortgage, and a house, and babies, and cars, and car payments, and school payments.

• 44:41Rich Roll?

  It's not an option anymore.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  And the option's gone. And it's been, it's, it's no longer, the idea of figuring out's no longer there, because life has handed you something else. Life has made the determination for you. And I think that's why it's very important to sort of always hit the reset button and say like, am I happy? Do I love what I'm doing? And that answer can be yes for someone like my best friend that I described, who's like, yeah, he, he, he waits tables, and he is a bartender, and he's a dishwasher. He's also a people person. He loves being surrounded by people. You know, he, he makes an okay living. He doesn't worry about money. Like, he stops, looks at his life, and says, yes, I love what I'm doing. And he's not flying, you know, first class to Dubai, because that's not where his passion is.

• 45:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  His passion is being at home with his family. So, I think it's about asking yourself that question, and that, and being true to yourself.

• 45:26Rich Roll?

  I think it's also about paying attention. And I think that when, you know, we're talking about obstacles or low moments, it's about valuing those, rather than, like you said, so eloquently, trying to sidestep them or avoid them, right? Like, my wife always says, like, don't, you know, if somebody's being dismantled, like, they lost their job, or they lose all their money, or something terrible happens in their life, like... That's their sacred moment, like, don't rob them of that moment because that is fertile ground for really doing that kind of inward work to try to say, all right, well, what now? Like, what is meaningful to me? Like, what can I, how can I move in a different trajectory where I can express something that's more authentic to who I would like

• 46:11Rich Roll?

  to be? Like, I think those are amazing opportunities to change your life as opposed to travesties or disasters. I mean, not to, like you said, like, take away from the real life kind of, you know, pressures that things like that entail, but...

• 46:25Speaker 01

  I also think it's really easy for us to sit here and be dismissive of them in retrospect because we're right. In retrospect, they're not a big deal. But when you're in the middle of those moments of the tough times in life, like, the last thing you want to hear

• 46:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  from some fucking guy with a podcast is that, like, this is the most treasured moment of your life. It's like, how dare you? But the truth is, it is.

• 46:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yesterday, I did a, last night, I had an unbelievable podcast conversation with this guy, Tom Harden, who was a hedge fund manager and got busted for crossing the line and became, he, he got tapped on the shoulder by the FBI and he became an informant. And his wiretapping activities led to over two dozen convictions and, like, toppled one of the biggest hedge fund managers in New York, right? And so his whole, but basically, he still got a felony conviction, he avoided jail, and he just got sentenced like two weeks ago. And his whole life is destroyed. Like, he can never pursue that job, and he can't get employed, he's got two little kids. And he discovered

• 47:29Rich Roll?

  running, you know, he discovered running, and he's like, become this super passionate ultra runner. And I asked him, I said, you know, if you could go back to that life, would you? And he was like, no. You know, like, he's found something as a result of that process that the guy wakes up every morning, he meditates, he drinks yerba mate, he goes running twice a day. Like, he lives a completely different life now that he, I wouldn't say he's in a place where he's found gratitude for that quite yet, but, but he has found a way to find peace for himself. And there's beauty in that.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  You know, I got run over by a car when I was 26, like stupid motorcycle situation. And when I was like in the hospital, my leg, my femur was broken in like 26 places, something crazy like that. And the doctor said, you will, he said unequivocally, you will never run again. And prior to that, I wasn't like an unhealthy person, but I definitely smoked a pack a day and I liked to drink and party and like I didn't really care. And I have that sense of invincibility. And that's when I stopped smoking and that's when I started running. And, you know, I've run 22 marathons since then and my focus now is all about health. So yeah, I think that's a really compartmentalized version of what we're discussing. It's like, if you'd walked into the hospital bed while I'm laying there like in traction,

• 48:48Speaker 01

  screaming my head off, crying because I can't move and my leg's destroyed and said, Casey, this is going to be a really valuable moment in your life, I would have punched you in the stomach and like told security to carry you out. But the truth is, yeah, like looking back at that, I'm appreciative of that. It's made me, it made me, forced me to realize how reckless I was with my own health prior to that. And I think every low point in my life, I can look back and say the same thing. But I also think there's a difference between seeing these, seeing the struggles in life as opportunities and seeing them as, seeing yourself as the victim. And I think we largely, and I say this, I can hear myself sounding

• 49:28Speaker 01

  cynical when I say this, but I think we live in a largely kind of entitled world, not world, but culture, our culture specifically, the people we're surrounded with have a sense of entitlement. And that sense of entitlement means that when I'm experiencing a struggle, it's someone else's fault and therefore I'm a victim. And I hate that. I hate that more than anything. I think there are victims in this world. I think you look at people who are sick and they shouldn't be sick. Those people are victims and that, that's a horrible, horrible thing. But if you're facing a struggle in life that's overcomeable, like you're no victim. Like, you know, pull your boots up, like work hard, fight through it.

• 50:06Rich Roll?

  Well, generally, the person played a part in it happening anyway.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  I would say generally it's nice of you to say. I'd say always, always. Absolutely.

• 50:25Rich Roll?

  Well, let's take it back a little bit. You know, the last time we sat down, we kind of went through, you know, the life story, the origin story. But for people that are new to the podcast, you know, how did this all begin? We're sitting in this extraordinary studio, which, by the way, I'll transgress a little bit. Last Sunday, I picked up The New York Times and I was reading through the magazine and I saw the article on Tom Sacks, who, did you see that, last Sunday's New York Times? So there's an article about, there's like a retrospective of his work, or like an installation on his boombox art. And I was reading it, I'm familiar with his art, but I was noticing like in the images

• 51:10Rich Roll?

  of some of his pieces, the through line between kind of his aesthetic and like what you've built here in the studio. Like, when I look at like that wall over there on the back wall, I'm like, that's very, I can see the influence of Tom on, you know, kind of how you've, you know, crafted how you work and see the world. Is that fair?

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, you know, I worked, I was his assistant when I was like 19 years old, and I moved to New York City, and I worked in his studio. And I remember, I was there for about six months before he said to me, Casey, you are the first assistant I've ever had who can come up with ideas for my artwork. And I, you know, I've like thought about that so much since then. And I also, you know, when I first started working for him, Ben and I, my brother and I worked for him, we were getting paid $10 an hour, and we weren't allowed in his studio. We worked in this like terrible warehouse three blocks away, because we were too much like of a pain in the ass to be in his studio. But when we were there unsupervised, we started making movies about his artwork. And then those movies, like, once he discovered what we were doing, those movies became a big part of his work.

• 52:15Rich Roll?

  And this is all pre YouTube?

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is like 2000, 2001. So, you know, I think there is this sort of... Connection between someone like him, who he's a sculptor, and someone like me, I'm a filmmaker. When you sort of look back at what are the things that excite us, and I think that, you know, at the time when I first started working for him and he bestowed a compliment, like, "You can come up with ideas for my work," what that actually means is like, we both like to make things with our hands. We both sort of were raised in a similar environment. We both have a very similar set of aesthetic principles and goals and things like that. And that's what, that's why we worked together so successfully. You know, when I was just a kid and he was a successful artist.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  But, um, yeah, I think that, I think that that idea of handmade and making things is something that I've always been tremendously passionate about. You know, I made a telephone headset when I was eight years old using a toothbrush, two pair of broken headphones, and like a bunch of tape, and it worked. Like, it totally worked. And I think it was that sort of precedent of us growing up in a house where everything was broken and us always having to learn how to fix things that led to such a sort of a successful relationship with someone like Tom. And then seeing how he's able to do something similar to that, but build a career around it, was certainly eye-opening.

• 53:38Rich Roll?

  I would imagine empowering, just to be able to observe what he, what he was able to create and then inspire you to do your own version of that in the filmmaking context.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  I just read, who said it? I think it was Chuck Close. I'm responding to your use of the word inspiration. I hate the word inspiration. It's like my least favorite word. And I've been trying to figure out why I have such disdain for the word inspiration. And I think it's a couple of things, but one, I think it's way overused. Way overused. Everyone uses it. Two, it's because like advertising has taken over that word, that idea, and like everything now is meant to inspire. And like every piece of clickbait nonsense that's in your and my Facebook feed is like, this inspiring moment when like a puppy saves a fucking chicken from a well. And like, I hate the word inspire. And then I recently read this amazing piece by-

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Chuck Close, where it starts, and this is the only part of the piece I remember because I committed this quote to memory, where he says, "Inspirations for amateurs. The rest of us just show up and get to work."

• 54:46Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  And that's exactly how I feel. When I get tweets, they're like, "Casey, what inspires you to make the work?" I say, "There's no moment of inspiration. It's all just a labor, and it's via the process of creation that the idea is actually birthed, that it's actually hatched. It's never a moment of inspiration, and then the product is there."

• 55:03Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  It's like, everything I do, everything I make, I think that's true for most people in the creative world, is a product of a process, and that process invariably involves a lot of hard work. But there's never this idea of a moment of inspiration, where the inspiration carries you through and has the product be at the finish line.

• 55:23Rich Roll?

  Well, I think inspiration is easy, too, and in some respects, it's almost lazy. Like, if you scroll through Instagram, right, like, suddenly now, there's, instead of images, it's like quotes on top of some kind of background, right, with like, these platitudes? And maybe I'm cynical, but like, I just can't, I'm not down with that. Like, I just find that to be, um, not insulting, but just sort of like, really? Come on? Like, I think there's, people want to be inspired, people are very easily inspired. I don't think it's that hard to inspire people, but I don't think that inspiration often translates into action.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:05Rich Roll?

  And that's the gap. You know what I mean? Like, "Oh, that's inspiring." And then they just go back and do whatever they're doing.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. On my flight to Dubai last week, I watched the movie Gandhi, and I was very inspired at the end of that movie. And the moment it was over, I didn't become like a political radical and try to change the world. The moment that movie was over, I like, opened up my laptop and went back to like, editing whatever stupid little movie I'm making next. Inspiration is absolutely cheap, and I think it's important. I think inspiration and ideas are important, right? I think they're both very cheap and very easy, and they're powerful, and that's why people probably throw them around so much. But I think that there's real danger in that.

• 56:45Rich Roll?

  I mean, the caveat that I would make is that, you know, look, you live your life incredibly transparently, you're sharing it on YouTube, you're sharing it on Snapchat, and I want to talk a little bit about that some more, but... You know, the manner in which you conduct yourself is inspiring to a lot of people. And, you know, the truth is, is that there probably are people out there who, who see your example and then make a different choice. So it's not that, it's not that it doesn't have merit, you know?

• 57:13Speaker 01

  So totally, and I, I agree with, I agree with that entirely. And look, I, I, by learning about other people, I can remember the first time reading like the autobiography of Malcolm X. And, I mean, I've read that book several times, but the, the first time I read that, it, it inspired me, it moved me in such a way that like was absolutely a call to action. You know, knowing that he entered prison as a criminal and he left, uh, he left prison as a, as a extremely well-educated autodidact because he sat up all night, every night, reading every book in the prison library. Like, that showed me that like my own lack of formal education was no barrier to my, my seeking out of success. And like, no, inspiration is an incredibly, incredibly powerful, powerful emotion and powerful thing.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  And I don't mean to diminish that by saying I hate the word inspiration. I just mean the way that it's used today culturally, the way it's used today in popular culture, and the way that advertising has bastardized that word, has made it diminish its value to me. So if you want to explain the effects of it, or talk about the effects of it, or the impact of it, or you want to talk about what it may lead to, or what actions it may cause, that is tremendously exciting for me. But to talk about inspiration, especially in the form of like text in my Instagram feed, it's just, it's eye-rolling, pandering nonsense that I don't have time for. And it's like, it's cheap and easy.

• 58:37Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. So let's talk about kind of the evolution of, of what you've been doing. I mean, the last time that we sat down, that was pre-Snapchat, right? So in the last, that was a little over a year ago. So, um, now there's this thing called Snapchat, and you were like on it, like from day one, since they, uh, revealed that added functionality of being able to create stories, you were immediately on top of that. And to this day, I think you've posted one almost every day. You've only missed a few, a few days. And how has that, like, what was that choice about? And how has that kind of informed? What you do.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Well, look, I think if you look at the trajectory of my career, I was making movies in the early 2000s before the internet, so I called them fine art and distributed them in museums and galleries around the world. And then, you know, I was in television and I had a show on HBO and I made feature films that I put into movie theaters. And then I discovered YouTube in like 2010, the potential of that, so I pivoted to YouTube. And, you know, Snapchat is something that I'm super excited about, but Twitter and Instagram are things that I'm excited about as well. I've always been sort of agnostic when it comes to what mediums I use to disseminate ideas and perspectives that I believe in. And I think that, you know, YouTube enabled

• 59:58Speaker 01

  me to all of a sudden reach a global audience and do it in an entirely democratic, egalitarian way. If HBO is elitist in that you have to pay for it and have access to it and have a television and all these barriers that existed, that exist still, you know, I think that YouTube is antithetical to that. Anyone with an internet connection can now access my work. Therefore, the only barrier between them and my work is their decision to engage or not engage in the work. And that motivates me to make it better. So they choose to engage. And I love that idea. And I think what Snapchat enables me to do is to do that on a much smaller scale. It's the preciousness of the, of creating movies is diminished in that I can just share sort of little tiny compartmentalized experiences that I've had using this distribution medium.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Instagram enables me to do that with a still image and Twitter enables me to do that with words. Snapchat enables me to do that with these little creations that involves drawing on the screen and putting silly geofilters and taking pictures and doing all these other things. But yeah, and there's, there's rarely a day that goes by where I don't see something that interests me enough to want to share it. And my host of tools becomes a YouTube movie, no, an Instagram post, maybe a Twitter post, okay, perfect. Or a Snapchat post is now part of that, that conversation. So I think, yeah, it's in the long sort of lineage of social tools and the dissemination of information from one to many, I think Snapchat's a really powerful tool and a really, really like.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Pivotal step in sort of the evolution of that. In distancing ourselves from needing an established medium to disseminate ideas and instead just putting all of the power into that of the of the people.

• 1:01:43Rich Roll?

  Right, or no intermediary, right? Because essentially what you do is is remove any kind of gatekeeper between you and your audience. Whether you're creating, you know, whether you're creating a commercial like what you did for J. Crew. Like, there's no, I mean, you are the agency, you're the production company, you're the on-air talent, you're the editor. And and ultimately, it's your story that kind of that almost trumps the product itself in terms of the narratives that you're spinning. So there's this, there's this kind of, um, I don't know, how you doing? We're in the middle, we're Snapchatting now.

• 1:02:29Rich Roll?

  That just totally threw off my train of thought.

• 1:02:34Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, in a, in a commercial aspect of what you do, it's this new, it's this new idea of, you know, traditionally in advertising, there's the agency, there's the client, there's, you know, there's the product, there's the production company, which is often different. And you're sort of all of those things.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, I, I think that in the established means of, of, I don't know, communication of sharing, call it radio or television or any of those, there's always this filtration process that exists between you, the creator, and then the audience. And that filtration process, if it's a movie, that means producers, distributors, financiers, theater chains, and there's a million different levels to that filter, that bureaucratization of the spirit of the original idea. But when you look at something like, I don't know, written word, or you look at something like a painting, like Picasso makes a painting, he hangs it on the wall, then you go and you look at it, it means there's nothing between you. And his idea, it's pure, it's true. And I think with

• 1:03:33Rich Roll?

  But the accessibility of that requires you to travel to go see it.

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So I think what technology has afforded us the opportunity to do is diminish that bureaucratization, diminish that. And all of a sudden now, because of technology, you have the opportunity to reach an audience directly with zero filtration in between you and that audience. And that is a magical, amazing thing that we've seen governments overthrowing because of Twitter and we've seen like, you know, all kinds of promotion of empathy because of tools like Instagram and, you know, we're seeing, I think Snapchat is, again, part of that evolution in sort of connecting people and making this direct communication between you and people that choose to receive whatever content it is you are sharing, but that decision

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  is theirs alone and not based on this buffer that's in between.

• 1:04:22Rich Roll?

  Right. They're not force fed a commercial they don't want to watch. They have to opt in, they have to desire to see it. They're volunteering for it.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  That's right. Rich, I gotta go.

• 1:04:33Rich Roll?

  You have to leave?

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I gotta stop this podcast.

• 1:04:35Rich Roll?

  Do you?

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  How long have we been talking?

• 1:04:37Rich Roll?

  Forty-five minutes. You gotta go?

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I gotta go, man. I got meetings.

• 1:04:42Rich Roll?

  All right, dude.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  Well, that was a good point to end on, right?

• 1:04:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, very abrupt.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  You know, I'm a man of many things, but subtlety has never really been one of them.

• 1:04:54Rich Roll?

  I got you, man. All right, hold on a second, though. I have to at least get one Snapchat of you talking, right?

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Do you want me to actually say something important?

• 1:05:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'll tell you, this podcast is now over.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  I'm trying to end this podcast, but Rich won't stop Snapchatting in the middle of it.

• 1:05:11Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  I can hear you posting that podcast. I can hear it trying to connect to them.

• 1:05:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know, he's making that buzzing noise. All right, man, well, thanks for the time.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, this was awesome. I'll see you again next time there's a blizzard in New York City.

• 1:05:25Rich Roll?

  I know, right on. All right, man.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  Great, Rich, thanks.

• 1:05:28Rich Roll?

  Bye.

• 1:05:33Rich Roll?

  All right, see what I'm saying? It just kind of ended right there. But hey, what are you gonna do? It was still fun, right? I hope you guys enjoyed that. Casey's awesome. If you're not already a follower, I would highly suggest checking out his YouTube page, his Snapchat, his Instagram, his Twitter, all that good stuff. He's Casey Neistat, N-E-I-S-T-A-T, pretty much everywhere on the internet. If you Google him, it's insane. For all the information, education, products, nutritional products, tools, resources, inspiration you need to take your health, your wellness, your fitness, and self-actualization to the next level, go to richroll.com. Check out our nutrition products, our educational products, our books, our garments, Julie's

• 1:06:16Rich Roll?

  meditation program, all good stuff. If you're into online courses, we've got two. The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition, which is a program that Julie and I did. Everything you need to know. It'd be a good, like, sort of companion piece to The Plant Power Way, I think. And also, I did one called The Art of Living with Purpose. That's about goal-setting, and the inside work, and how to set yourself up for a better life trajectory. Both of those courses are on mindbodygreen.com. You can find them pretty easy. Click on "Video Courses" on the homepage there. If you like the podcast, give us a review on iTunes. Pick up the free app to listen to episodes older than the most recent 50 that you find on iTunes. Keep supporting the show.

• 1:07:00Rich Roll?

  Give us a review on iTunes. Tell your friends. Pick up The Plant Power Way. Tell your friends about The Plant Power Way. You know what would be cool? And let's close it down with this. So, the book is gonna ship on... People who preorder the book, a lot of them are gonna get the book on their doorstep on Tuesday, by the time they're listening to this. So, pick it up, make a recipe from the book, share that recipe and your experience of using the book on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram, all that kind of stuff. Let us know how the recipes are doing, and let us know online how you're enjoying the book, what's your favorite recipe. Post us, tag us, we'll share it. We'll throw you the love, throw us the love. It's all good. We're just having a huge, global internet party, right? That'd be great. All right, you guys.

• 1:07:45Rich Roll?

  We'll see you soon. Thanks. Peace.

• 1:07:49Rich Roll?

  Blatz.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  Namaste.