#280 - Psychonaut Scientist Reveals The ANCIENT Beings Hiding in DMT Hyperspace | Dennis McKenna | Dennis Mckenna

Sign up for the Coca Summit in Peru - https://bit.ly/40uRj6s Dennis McKenna is an ethnopharmacologist, author, and brother to well-known psychedelics proponent Terence McKenna. Dennis currently runs the @mckenna.academy YouTube channel. SPONSORS https://hims.com/danny - Start your FREE online visit today. https://pick6.draftkings.com - Download the DraftKings Pick 6 app and use code DANNYJONES. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off EPISODE LINKS Wisdom of the Leaf Coca Summit - https://bit.ly/40uRj6s Dennis' YouTube channel - @mckenna.academy Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss book: https://a.co/d/3u81TJP https://mckenna.academy FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - The brotherhood of the screaming abyss 11:56 - Discovering Ayahuasca 23:35 - Psilocybin mushrooms in La Chorrera 32:20 - The transcendental object at the end of time 46:34 - Timewave Zero 01:00:45 - Dennis' disagreement w/ Terence 01:16:25 - Terence McKenna was a complex person 01:28:25 - Mushrooms are the ideal psychedelic 01:46:26 - Set & setting 01:57:06 - The reality hallucination 02:05:34 - We're made of drugs 02:12:40 - Stoned ape theory 02:21:38 - The Extratempestrial Model 02:29:43 - Galen & ancient drugs 02:32:59 - Extracting drugs from plants 02:43:44 - Psychedelics as medicine 02:48:07 - Cocaine 03:03:59 - New coca leaf study 03:10:53 - The biognosis project 03:23:40 - Extended state DMT studies Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Danny Jones?

  The McKenna Academy is hosting the Wisdom of the Leaf Coca Summit in 2025 from February 3rd through the 7th at the Wilca Tica Retreat Center in the Sacred Valley of Peru with dozens of biologists, doctors, and professionals coming together alongside Dennis McKenna. And now you can join the summit too. Just go to McKenna.Academy to find more information on the Coca Summit and you can email Annette at McKenna.Academy for pricing and details. Be a part of the change and now enjoy this fantastic conversation with Dennis McKenna.

• 0:35Danny Jones?

  All right, Dennis. Thanks for coming, man.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 0:39Danny Jones?

  Of course, I'm very excited to chat with you.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  It's a pleasure. I've been looking forward to this ever since you contacted.

• 0:45Danny Jones?

  So have I. So have I. Your book is absolutely fascinating. The way it just like walks people through you and your brother's childhood and growing up and essentially like how you guys were incubated into this world of psychedelics and you know, the whole like 60s counterculture movements. And you know, I thought it was really cool how it was a very grounded backstory of how you guys came to be and how you guys are also so different, but also so similar.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Yes, we were very similar. Of course, my brother was four years older than I was and he was interested in all kinds of things and being the older sibling, he got all the attention, right? And I was sort of in the background. But he was such an interesting person. I wanted to be involved in everything that he was doing, you know, and I'm just the pesky little brother, you know, sort of tagging along. But sometimes, you know, it synced and we had, you know, since you've read the book, and by the way, I should mention with the book, the copy I sent you is the original edition, 2012 edition. There's a

• 2:09Speaker 01

  new edition available now.

• 2:11Danny Jones?

  The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss, My Life with Terence McKenna.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a new edition from Synergetic Press.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  And it came out a couple of years ago, and it's exactly the same as the old edition, except there's a fifty fifty page addendum, which kind of updates it. So if people want the new edition, they should buy it from Synergetic Press.

• 2:35Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  You get one of the rare original copies. There's only about fifteen of these copies left in the world. So this is probably worth something. It was thirty-five dollars. Maybe it's worth fifty dollars now.

• 2:51Danny Jones?

  No.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  But anyway, it's a special gift to you.

• 2:55Danny Jones?

  Well, I'm very honored. Thank you.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  But the book was, yeah, I wanted to tell my side of the story, basically, with the book and recount our whole lives. You know, many people are familiar with Terence's book, True Hallucinations, which was published about nineteen ninety-three. And that really focuses on our trip to La Chirera, that whole adventure that we had down in Colombia, which which we're more or less famous for, in some ways more infamous for. With this book, I wanted to tell a broader story about our lives, our childhoods, how we got interested

• 3:38Speaker 01

  in all this, and sort of what was the what that ensued to, what was the sequelae of that? And of course, as siblings, as siblings do, we squabble constantly, you know, when I was a kid. And my brother was very creative in finding many ways to torture me, you know, I mean, he was a master of psy-ops and all that. And he was, you know, I mean, he didn't actually physically beat me. He was more subtle than that. But he could scare the bejesus out of me. And he did.

• 4:16Danny Jones?

  He was a fan of psychological torture.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Psychological torture. And he took great pleasure in doing that, you know. But eventually, I became sort of immune to it. And then I would sort of, you know, push back. And

• 4:33Speaker 01

  You know, but I mean, we had this relationship, which actually it became, we became closer after he left home. He left.

• 4:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  To go to high school in California when he was a junior. And so all of a sudden, I was effectively an only child. This was early, this was like nineteen sixty-two. Well, I had my own room, that was great, but I was lonely and I was sort of, at that point, I began to realize what a true sort of soulmate he was, you know, how many, how much I loved him, even though, you know, there was constant, constant fighting. But when he was away, I began to appreciate him and I began to really look forward to

• 5:29Speaker 01

  his visits back at Christmas and summer and so on. And we discovered that we had these mutual interests and one of the main interests that that sort of fascinated us as a continuing carrot was science fiction. I mean, that was the thing. We were serious science fiction nerds, you know, and when we, when psychedelics came along or began to come along in the sixties, you know, we were fascinated by this because we were, we were both like nerds, you know, we were fascinated with weird shit, basically.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  When psychedelics came along, we knew about it, we were fascinated by it. But a lot of people who became interested in psychedelics in that era were, they approached it from the standpoint of a traditional use or shamanism or therapeutic use or, you know, that, that sort of approach, you know, that it was a spiritual thing. We were science fiction nuts. We approached it as an engineering problem. We thought, especially with DMT, I mean, DMT quickly rose in our pantheon to be the ultimate psychedelic, you know, and we thought, this stuff, this is not a drug. This is a portal to another dimension.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  That was the way that we thought of it.

• 7:01Danny Jones?

  And what was the, what was the first psychedelic that you guys came across? Because psilocybin mushrooms weren't easily to come, easy to come across in the United States.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  That was in the future.

• 7:12Danny Jones?

  Right. So was it just LSD mainly?

• 7:14Speaker 01

  There was LSD, there was mescaline, and there was DMT. There wasn't much DMT around, but it was there. DMT is a very simple molecule. It's very easy to make. There were underground chemists making DMT. And when my brother was living in Berkeley, originally in Los Altos, where he was going to high school, he had connections. He had actually one, one of the, one of his closest friends was, was one of his classmates, a fellow named Rick Watson, who was another super genius weirdo.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  And Rick Watson was a chemist, and he was actually an amateur chemist, but he had some connections with the Stanford Research Institute. And the Stanford Research Institute was working with DMT, as it turned out at that time. So he was able to get DMT, and through that connection, Terrence was able to, to access DMT.

• 8:20Danny Jones?

  What was Stanford doing with DMT?

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Good question. Nobody knows, you know? But a lot of the people at the Stanford Research Institute were interested in psychedelics. Well, they were interested in psychedelics in many different ways. For one thing, for solving problems, you know, for, for creativity, for enhancing creativity. And you know, in the 60s, the whole government program with MKUltra and all that was all in full swing.

• 8:51Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  Nobody understood psychedelics.

• 8:53Danny Jones?

  This is the height of the Charles Manson stuff, when he was going to that free clinic in Haight-Ashbury.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 8:58Danny Jones?

  Jolly West.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. And, and.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  At the time psychedelics were just this thing that, you know, the government felt that they needed to know about.

• 9:10Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  So there were secret ops programs at the Stanford Research Institute.

• 9:15Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah, the Cold War was such a crazy time and the fact that it collided with the psychedelic movement is just, is just crazy.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. One of Terrence's other good friends, a friend of this fellow Rick Watson, the chemist, another good friend of his, was a guy named John Parker. And he was another, you know, amazing person. And he was the son of a big mucky muck at the NASA Ames Research Center, which was in Palo Alto, in Mountain View, next to Palo Alto, next to Los Altos. And John Parker Senior was the head of chemical operations at NASA Ames Research. So he was doing a lot of research on material science.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  He was looking into, you know, materials to make spacecraft out of that were fire resistant and all that. But because he was a very, very peculiar person, shall we put it that way, he had side interests and side interests included psychedelics. And John Parker became, for, John Parker studied everything esoteric that he could get his hands on. Alchemy, chemistry, you know, esoteric traditions, all of these things. He became a very good friend of Terrence's.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  And then he came back to Peonia, this little podunk town that I was stuck in going to high school. But one summer, John Parker came back with Terrence, you know, to Peonia. And he took a liking to me for some reason. He thought I was cool. And I was totally in awe of this guy because he was so weird and yet so obviously brilliant and he knew so many things. So he became a major mentor of mine, you know, and we entered into this correspondence that lasted years and which we, he introduced me to all of these amazing ideas, you know, and, and it's really.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  That was, uh, I guess, a major, major influence in my sort of esoteric education. You know, and, uh, and, and of course he knew a lot about drugs. I mean, we all were wanting to learn about drugs. So, so DMT was there, LSD was around, uh.

• 11:55Danny Jones?

  And how did you take DMT back then?

• 11:58Speaker 01

  We, uh, the way that you, usually what you got was very impure DMT. It was probably made in a bathtub somewhere by some crazy chemist. It was anything but pure. Didn't really matter because it's a free base. You put a little bit of it in a pipe on top of an organic substrate, like maybe parsley leaves or something like that, or cannabis. And then you just smoked it, you know, in a pipe. Three or four big hits.

• 12:27Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  It's very hard on the lungs, you know, but we were smoking cannabis. Our lungs were, you know, endured to, endured to that anyway. That's how we did it, you know? And when you do it that way, vaping is sometimes, it's a lot more gentle than taking DMT, uh, by a pipe because it is so fast. It just comes at you like a freight train. It's like, you know, this just, just the world dissolves in this world of hallucinations and apparently strange entities and all these things just opens up. But it's the same thing. It's, it's

• 13:07Speaker 01

  a, you know, 20 minute outside, very, very short experience.

• 13:14Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  And, uh, and we were totally impressed with this. I mean, who wouldn't be? And we were fascinated. We thought LSD is interesting, but DMT is the ultimate metaphysical reality pill, we thought. Although it's not a pill, but Terrence used to call it that. It's the ultimate metaphysical reality. The problem we experienced with DMT was it was too darn short.

• 13:39Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  By the time you got into it.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  It was over, you know, by the time you got into it and sort of started looking around, you were already on the way down. So we thought, well, maybe if we could find an orally active form of some kind, it would be more prolonged and we'd have more time to look into that dimension, which is what we thought of it as. We thought of it as a place, not an experience, but an actual place that our minds were teleported to or something like that. We thought if we could find another form that was orally active, it would absorb most slowly and go away more

• 14:21Speaker 01

  slowly. So that's what led us to look for an orally active form of DMT in South America. This was all around 1968, 1969. And we didn't know about ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is an orally active form of DMT, but no one understood that pharmacology at that time. You know, what we did find was a paper by Schultes, the famous ethnobotanist from Harvard that was major influence on all of these psychedelically inclined ethnobotanists. A paper in his own house publication called "The Harvard Botanical Museum Leaflets." And he published many, many

• 15:06Speaker 01

  things on the South American psychedelics. He was the pioneer. In those days, they called them hallucinogens. But he published a paper in that journal called "Verola as an Orally Active Hallucinogens." That was the title. And we stumbled on this paper and we thought, "This is it, Ben. This is what we're looking for." It was this wetto-to drug.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  That they use, Verolla is a genus of trees in the nutmeg family and in many tribes in the Amazon, they make snuff out of it. The sap of Verolla is loaded with DMT and five methoxy DMT and related tryptamines. And various tribes, they extract the sap and they powder it and they mix it with ashes and they make a snuff out of it. So they, so effectively it's DMT.

• 16:00Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  But this, and it's short acting, but this one tribe, the Witoto, had an orally active preparation. They made, instead of a snuff, they made a powder out of it. And uh, they made a paste. They made a little, they made a little, made that they didn't dry it down completely. They made a sticky paste. They rolled that in ashes and then they ate it orally. And the reports were that-

• 16:29Danny Jones?

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• 17:52Speaker 01

  The effects came on very quickly and that you saw the little people. They were beginning to see the little people and we saw little people on DMT. So we thought this is it, you know? We gotta go to South America. That is what led us to go to South America in 1971 to La Chirera. That was the cultural, uh, that was the ancestral home of the Waitoto. So we thought we gotta go to La Chirera. We have to find this thing, you know? Cause this is it, cause it may be the ultimate mystery. I mean, you know, you gotta understand, I'm 20. My brother is 24. We're both fanatics. We're batshit crazy.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  You know, we're going after this quest, you know, which we thought of as the secret at the time. So that's what led us to go to La Chirera, you know, was in search of this drug, which was called Ukuhé in Waitoto. And we got to La Chirera and you know, the whole adventure of getting there is recounted in the book. We got to La Chirera. And on the way into La Chirera, we'd encountered this anthropologist who was working with the Waitoto. And we knew he was probably gonna run into him. His colleagues in Bogota had said, you know, Dr. Calle is out there. You'll probably see him.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  This was, you know, you didn't send texts to people or anything that this was 1971. So we thought, okay, we'll probably encounter Dr. Calle. Well, we did. We saw, we ran into Horatio Calle, which is a different name than in the book. I've changed his name, but we ran into him in a village down river from La Chirera called Ellen Canto, which is. Coincidence enough, syncreticity enough, because El Encanto means the enchanted, you know, and we were on this whole mythic quest to find the secret. And we talked to Dr. Collier, and when we got there, we, you have to understand, we

• 20:03Speaker 01

  were very much in the hippie mode. We dressed like hippies, beads, bells, you know, all that. So when these people, these crazy people show up in the village, Dr. Collier is like, who the fuck are these people? You know, and what are they here for? Why are they here? And when we said, we're here for Okuhé, then he really freaked out, you know, and he's like, you can't just go in there and march in there and start asking for Okuhé. He said, you know, this is their biggest shamanic secret. I mean, they'll, they will probably kill you if you start talking about this.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Well, you know, so we said, okay, doc, we understand, we'll be cool, we'll be discreet, we're not just gonna, you know, ask for it. Dr. Collier, I should mention, he was a good example of someone who had a problem with coca. He chewed so much coca, he's a little paranoid, you know, he was paranoid about everything. That's, but we said, okay, we'll be careful when we go, you know, and, and to get from El Encanto to La Chorrera, we had to go overland from the Rio Igara Parana, which is where El Encanto was, to the Cara Parana.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  There was a four-day trail that we had to travel to get to this parallel river where La Chorrera was. And it was, it was, it was a trail that had been made in the rubber boom days to transport rubber out of this area and, you know, built on slavery and, you know, very, very dark history of that period. But we went over that trail and we got to La Chorrera.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  And we thought, well, okay, so here we are, um, you know.

• 22:02Danny Jones?

  They didn't have any like landing strips in La Chorrera? You couldn't just like fly a little plane there?

• 22:06Speaker 01

  They, well, the, the, there were no landing strips. There were sea planes.

• 22:10Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  River planes, but we're, you know, hard, we're poor hippies. We can't afford, you can't afford planes, you know?

• 22:20Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Uh, and, you know, so that wasn't an option, but we got there and, uh, at the time we got there, uh, there were, uh, uh, it, it's a mission. It's a mission. Uh, uh, ca- uh, cappuccino mission was there. There's a church and a little mission school where the Watoto kids would come basically to have their minds poisoned with Christianity, you know, and, uh, but it was, it was between semesters or it was on vacation. So there are a lot of hu- uh, empty huts in the area. So they just said, you can stay in one of these huts, you know, while you're doing whatever you're doing.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  And by the way, what are you doing? And we were sort of, you know, we're, we're botanists. We're looking for plants, you know? And, uh, so we got settled in, into this place. Thought, well, you know, we will respect what Dr. Collier said. We'll not just, just go out. We'll, we'll hope somebody shows up. It looks like maybe we could ask about this Ukuhe. Well, as it turned out, it was the rainy season and, uh, for the first, uh, around the, around this mission, around a couple hundred acres had been cleared. The rainforest had been cleared.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  And they brought in these Cebu cattle, uh, high white humpback cattle, right? And, uh, the shit of those cattle happens to be the preferred substrate for psilocybin cubensis, the pan-tropical psilocybin mushroom.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Which is big and robust and it was rainy and probab- there were huge clusters of these mushrooms growing out basically out of every cow pie. And we thought, wow, this is, and we knew what they were. We had no experience with them. We'd had one very brief experience on the way in at a village along the river, but just a very light dose because it was a, you know, it was a dry day. By the time we got to La Trera, these things were everywhere and we had, we had looked, we knew our, we had done our, our homework. We knew what the mushrooms were. But experience wise, we were very naive and we thought, well, that's great.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  These are, we could enjoy these. We were completely casual about it. We were completely cavalier. We'll have a good time with these while we're waiting for this ukuhe to show up, waiting for the secret to surface, you know, from some informant. So we began eating these mushrooms and we began eating them rather frequently and rather high doses. For one thing, they became part of our diet, you know, because there wasn't a whole lot to eat. And the mushrooms quickly.

• 25:17Danny Jones?

  So you were just eating these for like breakfast, lunch and dinner?

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Well, not, not breakfast, lunch and dinner, but daily or every other day. And quite, quite substantial doses, you know. And like 10, 15 mushrooms at a time and these things are potent, you know, in that environment. They're extremely potent. But we loved this. I mean, it was a fantastic thing and we, uh, but the mushrooms quickly made it clear that they were the real secret. They were what we had come for, not knowing it. The ukuhe wasn't the real secret, as it turned out. And later we did access ukuhe and, and ukuhe turned out to be fairly disappointing

• 26:05Speaker 01

  in terms of its effects, but the mushrooms were like, this is the most fantastic psychedelic we've ever experienced, you know, and, uh.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  You have no experience with psychedelics.

• 26:22Danny Jones?

  I have no experience with psychedelics. Other than DMT.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Other than DMT.

• 26:27Danny Jones?

  For the first time recently.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Well, you know, DMT and psilocybin is very, very close chemically.

• 26:33Danny Jones?

  I've heard, yeah. My only experience is cannabis and DMT.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Right, well, DMT is dimethyltryptamine. Cannabis is four phosphoril dimethyltryptamine. So it's the perfect genetically engineered orally active form of DMT. It's easily absorbed, it's orally active, it doesn't require monoamine oxidase inhibitors to be active, it's non-toxic, and it's a kick-ass psychedelic. You know, and it puts you in about a six to seven hour intense psychedelic space, depending on how much you eat, of course, but we were eating a lot. Full visionary hallucinations and all that.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  One thing that psilocybin does, and other psychedelics too, ayahuasca for example, but one thing psilocybin does, it sets up a, what you might call an I Thou relationship with you. It's like you get the impression that you are dealing with an intelligent entity. You know, that it's, this isn't just a drug. This is, well, our interpretation was it was some sort of, it either was an alien or it was a connection to an alien. It comes on as very in-your-face, and it has stuff that it wants to tell you.

• 28:02Danny Jones?

  Like a chemical doorway to another dimension.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And it has a lot of knowledge and it's eager to impart it. People get this on DMT too. In prolonged DMT or intense DMT states, people encounter entities.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  And it's not that they just encounter entities, the entities are happy to see you. And they have stuff to tell you, you know, they want to teach you things. And the psilocybin is that to the max. And they, the, our encounters with the mushrooms quickly became a series of encounters with what, with, with this entity, which, which, which we, which we called the teach, you know, we called it the teacher because it presented itself as a teacher and it had knowledge that it wanted to, to, uh, to impart.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Now I told myself I wasn't going to go down this rabbit hole with you, but I guess we have to.

• 29:08Danny Jones?

  Um, I'm hooked in.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  We have time and, you know, we have time and this is maybe essential to the story. So.

• 29:18Danny Jones?

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• 30:38Danny Jones?

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• 30:46Speaker 01

  So we were in this place, eating these mushrooms and more or less in constant dialogue with this, with this entity, the teacher. And in that state, the mushroom really stimulates verbores, you know, and quick thinking and, and linguistic expression and all this. And we were a very verbose, language-oriented bunch of folks anyway, you know, we were very much interested in language. For example, my brother's favorite book of all time was Finnegan's Wake, if you've ever heard of that.

• 31:28Danny Jones?

  Finnegan's Wake?

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, by, I forget who, who, Jesus, I can't, you know.

• 31:36Danny Jones?

  What was the, what was the book about?

• 31:38Speaker 01

  You have to look it up.

• 31:41Danny Jones?

  James Joyce?

• 31:42Speaker 01

  James Joyce. James Joyce, that's right. Oh, yeah. That's it.

• 31:48Danny Jones?

  Novel.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  It's nice to have Google right there. That's, that's good. Yes, check out, Terence was obsessed with James Joyce and with Finnegan's Wake particularly. I've not read it, I'm honest, I have to honestly tell you, but he read it and very few people could understand it. But it is the sort of ultimate instantiation of the English language.

• 32:12Danny Jones?

  Interesting.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. But anyway, so that was sort of the background we were coming from. And so this, this, the mushrooms had all this information that they wanted to download. And I particularly began to get effectively a message from the mushroom. Well, one, one thing that we noticed with the mushrooms, when you take these high doses is... That at high doses, you can hear this interior sound that in inside your head. And it's hard to characterize. It's kind of like an electrical buzzing sound. You heard it on DMT, right?

• 32:53Danny Jones?

  I was not expecting this.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:56Danny Jones?

  Cause I didn't know, I had no, no conception of what to expect when I was doing this. I was only, my only expectation was what the closest I've been to this on, on edible marijuana. Right. Which is no, not even in the same universe.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:14Danny Jones?

  And as soon as I started to effectively, as soon as my soul left my body, I don't know how else to put it. I had this pulsing wow, wow, wow, like very vivid auditory sensation.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  That's it. Some people describe it as like crackling cellophane or something like that. On DMT, you get this. Well, on mushrooms at high doses, not so much at lower doses, but at high doses. You, uh, you, you hear this thing and not only can you hear it, but if you, you can sing it. You can try to im- imitate it with your voice. You can make this meow, meow, meow, meow song. And at a certain point, your voice will lock onto this thing. And so then you're not trying to imitate it. It just pours out of you.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  And it's a very powerful sound. I mean, it's like, it's like the kind of sound that can, you know, shatter glass, that kind of thing. And we experienced this with the mushrooms and, and also with DMT. But we experienced that you could make this sound and it just seemed to have a certain resonance that actually,

• 34:36Speaker 01

  you know, had this effect. And so we thought, well, what is this? The mushroom and the mushroom is saying, well, what this is, is it's a, it's a frequency that can activate the DNA in your neural system.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  And actually create a standing waveform of your, of your DNA. To create, I mean, I'm, I'm skipping details here, but the basic idea was that if you project this sound at a mushroom, in the right circumstances, you can actually activate the DMT, the DNA in yourself and the mushroom. And create an external, uh, standing waveform that you can actually see.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  So it is an artifact that you're making out of your body and your mind and your brain and your DMT, your DNA and the, and the mushroom. And this thing in religious traditions was, is if there's any analogy to it, it's effectively the resurrection body. We wanted to create this artifact. You would both see it and be it at the same time. You know, it would be something external to you that you would observe. We envisioned that it would be, you know, a purplish violet glowing disc, basically.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  But it would be telepathic and it would obey your telepathic commands and it would be the ultimate object. It would be in fact, what Terence has said is called the transcendental object at the end of time. You know, and we thought that this was how you could create this thing. Well, you know, 50 years from now, downstream from all that, I understand, we were just nuts, you know? I mean, I mean, cause obviously it didn't happen. I mean, we, we tried to create this thing. And the prediction was that once we created it, it would propagate through basically space

• 37:01Speaker 01

  time and would collapse the space time matrix. And it would end history and, you know, we'd all move into the singularity, you know, pretty much instantaneously. Talk about messianic inflation, you know, this was messianic inflation on steroids.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  The mushroom was downloading all this stuff, like the blueprints, how to do this. You know, to me, it was like, and I was writing furiously, this is the procedure, what we must do. We must take mushrooms, we must include ayahuasca in there because there needs to be harmine in this mix, because harmine is the resonator. Harmine, actually, in ayahuasca, it's the MAO inhibitor that activates DMT. But in this particular instantiation, it was the intercalator, harmine intercalates into DNA. And this is known, this is scientific fact.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  It intercalates into DNA, so harmine became the resonator, the antenna effectively, that could set up this standing waveform. And the instructions were downloaded, and it was like, this is what you have to do. You have to sing to the mushroom in this way, in this very, very controlled situation, and you will create this artifact. I don't normally cop to this, you know, I mean, you're looking at me like, gee, should I call somebody? Hold on, I mean, I'm saying, I

• 38:43Danny Jones?

  No, this isn't the craziest thing I've ever heard, David or not.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  At the time, I, well, so we did this, right? And I performed this experiment, and the prediction was that this was gonna happen. Well, obviously, it couldn't happen, it would violate every law of physics known, you know, if this had happened, but we

• 39:06Danny Jones?

  Now, would this thing hypothetically only appear when you're under the influence of psilocybin mushrooms or DMT? Or would this actually appear when you're not under the influence?

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Our supposition was that it would, once it was there, it would be there.

• 39:23Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  And it would be something that would be controlled by thought. And it would have access to all information, and it would have access to all, effectively, throughout the cosmos. It would have, it would have, it would be a standing waveform, like a

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Like an electron in some ways, you know, uh, the electron doesn't have a boundary. It's boundary is spacetime itself. This would be like that, but there would be a physical part of it that we could act, that would be A time machine. This, a time, every, an everything machine. Everything. A time machine, a UFO machine, the transcendental object at the end of time, the ultimate technology, you know, that would be made from our brains, our nervous system, our thought and that of the mushroom. And that, you know, this would be, this would be it. This would, well, that didn't happen. That couldn't happen.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  We, we did the experiment and at first we're doing this in the dark, in the, in the hut. And there's, there's a light, you know, on, on the mushroom in front of it. And, and after I'd made the third scream, you, you probably read about this, right? In, in the book, after I'd made the third, then the light from my ruana, my serapi, fell on the mushroom and exactly bisected it. And I was looking at it and I looked at Terrence and I said, this is our world. This is what we're looking at.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  And it did, it looked, we had this idea that this was all being controlled by, you know, dome-headed beings from 22,000 miles out in, in orbit, that they were directing the whole thing, you know? And I said, this is our world. And, uh, so what happened was, because what we projected couldn't possibly happen, but what happened was that I Basically detached from reality, you know, uh, for about two weeks and Terrence detached from reality also, but in a different way.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  It was like in a complimentary way. This was about taking a template, kind of a reverse negative image of each other's DNA because we were brothers, right? And it was opposite, it was, it's very hard to articulate. It was hard to articulate it even then.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  Um, but even more so now because I'm so distant from it. At the time, it made perfect sense. It made perfect sense to Terrence and me that this had happened. And at the end of this experiment, we thought we have succeeded. We succeeded, but the timing of the appearance of this stone, we thought of it as a stone, as in philosopher's stone. The timing for the appearance of this art attack, well, basically we were, we were correct. We were incorrect about when it was going to manifest. You know, it wasn't gonna, it didn't manifest immediately.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  So the question is, well, when, when is it gonna show up? You know, and uh,

• 43:09Speaker 01

  our companions who were there, who hadn't participated in this experiment were like appalled,

• 43:18Speaker 01

  totally appalled. It's like, we need to get these people airlifted out of there and into a psychiatric facility as soon as possible, you know? But it wasn't possible.

• 43:30Danny Jones?

  And you, sorry, go ahead.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  It's good that it wasn't possible because that would have aborted what was happening, you know? And, and that, and that would have.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  I have no doubt that if that had happened, that would have left me at least insane, you know, probably for the rest of my life, lost in this delusional place. I don't know what it would have done to Terrence, but the fact that we could not end it gave it all a possibility of the opportunity to play out. And what played out over about the next 10 days or so was that Terrence, I was, became adrift in the cosmos. I was basically, my mind felt that I felt, well, there wasn't really an I anymore, but this

• 44:24Speaker 01

  entity that I transformed myself into felt like I was, uh, my circumference was identical with the circumference of the universe. You know, I was, you've heard about being one with the cosmos. Well, man, I was one with the cosmos. I was the cosmos. But over the next 10 days or so, I began to condense. Each 24 hours, I started falling back together. And each 24 hours, I was a little more condensed. Like it started with the, with the, you know, circumference of the cosmos. The next, it was the galactic cluster. The next, it was

• 45:09Speaker 01

  the galaxy. The next, the solar system. The next, Earth. The next, and each one, and each one, I was sort of coming back into my body and into my mind, you know, and, uh, and Terrence simultaneously. So I was, I was three sheets to the wind, you know, I couldn't look after myself.

• 45:34Danny Jones?

  For 10 days? 10 days, you said this was?

• 45:36Speaker 01

  I forget the exact timeframe. It was 10, about 10 to 14 days.

• 45:40Danny Jones?

  And did you, did you have any relationship to physical reality back on Earth? Or was, it was like, how did you get through the day?

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Well, people had to look after me, you know, and because I was joined to everybody, like, like my companion, for example, if I wanted to smoke a cigarette, I would ask Sarah to smoke a cigarette. And I could enjoy the cigarette that she was smoking. Or if I want, you know, because I was connected to everybody, um, you know, and, uh, or if I needed to take a shit, I could ask somebody else to do it and they would do it. And that would, in my mind, of course, not in reality, but in my mind. And, uh, so I was really divorced from what we would call reality.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  My brother simultaneously was hypervigilant. He did not sleep for 14 days. And he was constantly keeping an eye on me. He was looking after me, you know? That's probably why I wasn't sleep. I mean, it was probably, I've often joked, you know, well, you know, you've been trying to drive me crazy all of your life. Now you finally succeeded, so don't you feel guilty about that? And in fact, I think he probably did. And he was looking after me. He was making sure that no harm would come to me. But at the same time, he wasn't sleeping.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  And he was wandering the pastures, day and night, mostly at night, just wandering the pastures. And he was thinking about time, thinking about cycles, thinking about the timing of this event related to the death of our mother, which had taken place like six months previously, and projecting time in the forward. And he was making all these diagrams on the ground with sticks about time cycles and all that. And eventually,

• 47:56Speaker 01

  those ideas became, uh, condensed or evolved into what became his theories about time wave zero. Right. Right. The, the, the.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  The uh uh the the the time map effectively based on the e-ching, but it took years to get to that point. But the kernel of that idea.

• 48:22Danny Jones?

  We saw he thought something was gonna happen in December of the year 2000, right?

• 48:27Speaker 01

  In December of 2012.

• 48:29Danny Jones?

  2012.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  2012. And the where that did that date came from with came out of our

• 48:39Speaker 01

  expectation of when was the stone going to appear?

• 48:45Speaker 01

  And in the in the early days there, when we were both still completely batshit and all this was happening, he used to take me to the pasture every morning and he'd say, "Give it to me. Give it to me. Make it happen." And I'm like, and I, I don't know. What am I supposed to do? You know, but it was like, you know, we were trying to force the condensation of the stone. Eventually, I came back more or less to normal. And uh and he did too. During that period, he also had this encounter with a UFO. I don't know if you've read that part.

• 49:27Danny Jones?

  No, I didn't read that.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  In the book, I mean, at one of these early morning wanderings, he was standing by the river and uh by the Choro, which was this waterfall, that's what Lutero is named for, looking across the river. And there were clouds across the river and they started to roil and boil. And then this UFO condensed out of the clouds. You know, and and I didn't see this, so I can't vouch that it happened. You know, but I believe it probably did. It it came out of the clouds and, you know, he was obviously terrified. And it, you know, making the usual flying saucer noises.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  And it was one of these things. It was an absurdity. It was, it was the exact, you know, other UFO researchers, people like Jacques Vallée and so on have always talked about how there's an element of the absurd in a lot of these experiences. And this was that because the, the flying saucer was an exact representation of Adamski's flying saucer, which he had talked about, which he actually made a photograph of, which was shown to be, uh, you know, a fake made from a Hoover vacuum cleaner.

• 50:54Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:55Danny Jones?

  What's it called? A Damski?

• 50:57Speaker 01

  George Adamski, he was a famous UFO nut back in, back at this time and talked about UFOs and, and was, you know, probably just crazy. Like I should talk, right? But, uh,

• 51:14Danny Jones?

  Find his UFO.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  It was, uh, yeah, George Adamski, there you go.

• 51:18Danny Jones?

  Do you have a picture of his UFO?

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Uh, yes. That's a picture of his UFO. Yes. It was that, it was that UFO.

• 51:27Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Exactly. God, the internet is a wonderful thing, or maybe not, but, but yeah, it was that UFO. And it was, it was coming at Terrence Lowe and it was humming and it was very threatening, you know? And he was like, what the fuck? And he was terrified and, you know, and then it just went over and, and that was it. And, and, uh, I, I don't believe Terrence made this up, you know? Uh, why would he? You know, unless just to tell a good story and it's possible. I mean, he was always.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Always happy to tell a good story. I can't verify it. But why? Why would that happen? So this was just one of many anomalous things that was happening. There was, that was happening during this period. I could, we were telepathic. We could understand each other. Our companions, like I say, were appalled. But Terry and I were in telepathic communication. What we were doing made perfect sense to us. You know, we understood. And, and so a lot of what we were trying to do was to manifest not only this artifact, but this thing that comes out of the sound,

• 52:49Speaker 01

  which we call translig- translig linguistic matter. A new kind of language where to say something was to see something. It's the uni- the unification of, of visual and auditory energy. So that if you spoke in this translig linguistic language, you could manifest something, like casting a spell, you know, effectively. To say it was to make it.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Crazy stuff, you know, and

• 53:24Speaker 01

  so that, so that was it.

• 53:26Danny Jones?

  During that time, that, that whole entire period of 10 days roughly, were you guys constantly taking mushrooms?

• 53:35Speaker 01

  No, no, this was, we'd stopped taking mushrooms.

• 53:38Danny Jones?

  You had stopped?

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:40Danny Jones?

  And it just, this was just like an after effect of that?

• 53:43Speaker 01

  This was whatever we'd triggered. Yeah, we weren't taking mushrooms anymore. We didn't have to take mushrooms. This was not about, this was not about being on mushrooms. You know, we'd done the mushrooms and maybe at toxic levels, maybe they were continuing in our, in our system. But their half-life is short. They don't last days. They last hours.

• 54:05Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  And so, no, this was some, if you want to look at it biochemically.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Go the reduction route, reductionist route for a minute. What did we do? We took a lot of mushrooms. We made this sound. We may have jammed open some system, you know, in the neural system. Maybe prolonged monoamine oxidase inhibition or something like that. If we want to reach out for a reductionist explanation, it could have been some kind of serious neural disruption of our, of our neural chemistry. And eventually that re-equilibriated and we came down, more or less. It took a while, even, well.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  So to continue this story and sort of how it, how it played out. I was, I was, you know, pretty much dissociated for a long time. Terrence was looking after me. All our companions were worried. And, and he was, and I always, I wanted to wander off. I wanted to go wander off because I needed to be out there healing people, right? I mean, that was my thing. I had this messianic desire to share my powers, you know, and heal people. Well, one day I got away from them.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  And I climbed the bell tower of the mission. And I started ringing the bell. And the whole community was alarmed, you know? I mean, they already knew that these people were weird and there was very strange stuff going on. But we had really disrupted the, the peace of the community. But I broke that. I, and they was like, what the fuck? Who is this guy? He's clearly gone bananas. And so they, uh.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  They, you know, they said, you know, your friend is not in control and, and for his own good, we're gonna confine him. The police, it was a police outpost as well as a mission. That's we're gonna put him in this room here and keep him there for a while. Hopefully, he'll fall down, he'll calm down. Not in any way, just trying to be helpful, basically. Not, not unkind. And I could care less because I wasn't really connected to it. And at the same time, about that time, one of, one of our companions who had not participated

• 56:58Speaker 01

  in that, she, she was concerned and she was thinking that we needed to get out of there. And, and she also sprained her ankle rather badly. So that was sort of a trigger. It's like, okay, enough of this nonsense. We're gonna call in a plane and have you guys airlifted out of here. We're gonna get airlifted out of here, which we could do, you know, there's radio, there was a bush pilot that would come deliver mail occasionally to La Chirera, like about once a month. So we put in an emergency call to him. And he took us out. And we went to Laetitia and we ended up in this hotel for a while. And I'm still, you

• 57:42Speaker 01

  know, really pretty shaky. And, and Terrence, but Terrence, because he's hypervigilant, he was, you know, looking after everything, spent a few days in that hotel. And eventually, you know, continued this condensation process and pretty much returned to more or less my baseline. And

• 58:11Speaker 01

  And then I, you know, we went back to Bogota and I arranged to to come home. And at this point, I was like, I don't want anything to do with this.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  You know, I just wanna be a normal guy. I just wanna, I just wanna get my feet on the ground. I don't know what was going on, you know, but whatever it was, I'm glad I'm sane. I'm glad I'm functional and I wanna go home and I wanna study, return to the university and

• 58:42Speaker 01

  and just live my life, you know, and which I, so I did eventually go back.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  I changed my studies from what I had been studying. It was basically anthropology and religious studies, that sort of thing. But I started studying chemistry. I started studying harder sciences. I studied biology, pharmacology, chemistry, all that thing. And part of the motivation for that was that Terrence was saying, and even before we'd done the experiment, but but afterwards, definitely, he was saying, you know, "Science will never explain this," you know.

• 59:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  And I was saying, "Well, wait a minute. We're not scientists, you know, so you can't say that until we know how to do science. You can't really dismiss science."

• 59:39Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  And so I thought, "I'm gonna study science," and that was kinda what put me on that trajectory. Terrence, on the other hand, was convinced that we had succeeded and that the timing of this,

• 59:57Speaker 01

  that effectively we were, that the timing of the appearance of this or this anomaly in the in the cosmic space-time stream, we'd just been wrong about when it was gonna happen. So in some sense, I mean, it it sounds cruel to say, and I don't mean it to, he persisted for years with the idea that we had succeeded.

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• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  And he built the time wave around this idea, and he built a, he built a career around this.

• 1:02:09Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  And he was such a persuasive speaker that he got a lot of people to buy into, you know? And I was pretty much a skeptic at the time. I've always been kind of a skeptic of the time wave. I think the time wave... Was a beautiful mathematical construction of the, around the I Ching. Uh, it is not a picture of, it's not a map of time. It doesn't have any predictive qualities. It works very well as a calendar. And if he left it at that, he would have been, he would have gotten a lot of recognition

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  from sinologists and scholars of the I Ching, but not much else. But by insisting that it predicted, you know, this eruption of this anomaly in the space-time, and there were many dates along the way that were identified, you know, with, with like commentary passages and this sort of thing, kept revising the dates. And eventually settled on this date of December 21st, 2012, you know, which it didn't hurt that. He arrived at that date independently by looking at all these maps, the 384-day cycles based on the I Ching.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  384 days is 6 times 64, right? And the I Ching is all about sixes and multiples of sixes because of the hexagrams. So he settled on this date of, uh, December 21st, 2012. And then it came to his attention that that was actually a very key date in the Mayan calendar. Right. The end of the 13th Bak Tun, in which the, you know, another one of these world transitions was predicted in the Mayan calendars. Not, not the end of the world, but some people interpreted it that way. So he thought, well, that's affirmation that, you know, we're on the right track here.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  So we'll set that as the end date. And it should happen at that time. And, well, he didn't live to see it, you know.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  But there was a lot of excitement about that date because of the Mayans and largely because of the memes that Terrence was releasing, had released into the memosphere. A lot of people were excited about that date and they expected something to happen. As you know, there were, you know, watch party, people were going down to, you know, Palenque and places like this to wait for it and so on.

• 1:05:02Danny Jones?

  I remember.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Nothing happened, you know, it was like the biggest non-event in human history.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  You know, so that was, to my mind, that was the, that was the definitive,

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  you know, invalidation of the time wave. I mean, Terrence and I used to have, we used to argue about the time wave, or so we say, have, have lively discussions because I was a skeptic and I was saying for all sorts of reasons, this doesn't really, it's not really a map of time, you know, I mean, the idea was that the wave described the aggression of novelty into the continuum. And this is a concept that goes back to Alfred North Whitehead.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  Alfred North Whitehead talks about novelty as something that appears. Novelty is, novelty is, is basically that every day, something happens that never before occurred in the history of the universe, you know, novel events, right? And the time wave is an attempt to chart the ingestion of novelty into the continuum, the aggression of novel events, and to quantify them, you know, and that was what it supposedly did, charted. And the end of the time wave was the ultimate ingestion of novelty when this would all collapse into

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  a singularity because the, the, the cycles were a spiral, getting tighter and tighter all the time, right? Going back really billions of years or even trillions of years. But in the last nanoseconds of the time wave.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Everything was gonna just collapse, just, just, it would be a complete transformation. You know, and so that was, that was the theory, that was the idea.

• 1:07:11Danny Jones?

  Spiral makes sense because he talked about time speeding up, right?

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Right, and the fractal nature of time. All of these cycles were fractals of, of each other, getting tighter and tighter and tighter. Till finally they're basically nanoseconds and, and even less. So it's like a, you know how a black hole is a singularity, uh, based on mass? And if it's small enough, you get a singularity. Well, this was a temporal singularity. You know, this was a, this was the collapse of, of the temporal continuum. You know, into something that could not be described by the laws of physics.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  And Terrence and I used to have these conversations and I was, I would say, well, Terrence, the problem is, the problem with the time wave theory is that, uh, you cannot, it can't be disproven. Right? You cannot define the criteria that would disprove it.

• 1:08:20Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  You know, and so it's not a theory. Because this, this is what, this is what science does, right? Science constructs hypotheses, it constructs suppositions essentially, very highly structured suppositions about a phenomenon in nature or some process and so on. And if you practice science honestly, you construct a hypothesis and then you say, Terrence, you try like hell to demolish it. Now, you try to say, what data does this not account for? What date, what are the incompletenesses? What are the deficiencies in the hypothesis? And then you either.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Try to answer those, you elaborate the hypothesis, you revise it, try to account for the data that it doesn't, that it doesn't account for, or you shit can the whole thing and replace it with something else. This is like the transition between Newtonian mechanics and relativity. I mean Einstein came up with relativity and in the normal, in normal, you know, experience of reality and that we experience on the macro level Einstein, uh, Newtonian mechanics works perfectly well, but at these relativistic dimensions and speeds and so on, that all falls apart and it's real. And, and Einstein came along and

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  I said, well, this experience, this relativity explains this. We know it doesn't appear to make sense because we're not in that relativistic places all the time, but this does actually explain it. And, and, and so in science, this happens, you know, one paradigm gives away to another as new information comes, comes available. And that's what we were postulating was that, or what Terrence was postulating. Well, so the time wave failed its, its definitive test. December 21st, 2012 came along and nothing happened. And

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  that was kind of the ultimate test that he'd postulated.

• 1:10:38Danny Jones?

  Does that ultimately mean that it means that it failed? Or is it possible that it could happen sometime in the future at another date? You know, that's the thing about, about, you know, Terrence was, I think self admittedly very slippery with his ideas, right?

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  You got it.

• 1:10:53Danny Jones?

  Well, just going on these psychedelic voyages and downloading this knowledge and being able to form it into a coherent idea that you can articulate with words.

• 1:11:12Danny Jones?

  Some of these concepts and these ideas almost by design cannot be measured and weighed scientifically. Right? They don't necessarily pass scientific method muster. But that doesn't mean necessarily that they're not not useful, right?

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  No, they they are useful. I mean, all of this, I mean, they're here's the thing in science. You never prove anything. You know, all hypotheses, all scientific cons- science is simply a way of act of asking very structured questions about nature, you know? You never prove your hypotheses. Because there are always maybe data that comes in next week, next month, 50 years from now, 100 years ago, that invalidates your hypothesis. All you can say is based on the data that we have, what we know now, this hypothesis, whatever it is, appears to be valid.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  You know, that's the way science works. And that was what was lacking in in Terence's construct. He was arguing, he was trying to prove it. And you don't ever, you don't arrive at proof. All you can do is say what we what we

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  suppose, the hypothesis that we've constructed, we can't disprove it. And I guess you could say that, but the thing is, there's not enough. The time wave in itself doesn't have

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  enough data to really be able to say that, because in in some ways, it's

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  it there are holes in it, and there are big holes that you can drive a truck through. For example, it does not, uh, it does not take account of relativity. It does not take take if it's a if it's a model of time. There, you know, like the work that the, the guy that you had on the podcast, time is not something that is, applies to the entire universe. There are regions where time is different than where it is now. That's why the idea of time travel is actually a possibility, you know? But the time wave is like, nope, this is it. This describes the entire space-time continuum. And it, it didn't, obviously, obviously.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  And there are other things that, well,

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  actually, again, it's, it's, you know, I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  feel like I'm putting my, I don't wanna sound like I'm putting my brother down. I mean, I had tremendous, uh, respect for him. And, uh, he was a brilliant guy. But the way he was trying to prove the time wave, it had more, the time wave was more about him than it was about time. It was about his personality, his understanding of history, which was, you know, deep. I mean, he was an incredible scholar of history. And it was about, you know, one of the things that we used to, uh, have in our conversations about novelty

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  was what is really novel? What is novelty? And we talked about, I mean, and he said, well, events like the first time an atomic bomb was ever detonated on, on the earth. That was, that's the novel event, you know? So that would be a spike. That would be a major like marker to put down in this evolution of novelty. Or the first time, uh, an animal was cloned or various, you know, kinds of scientific discoveries. But I would say, so he, he was sort of a proponent of the eruptive idea of novelty. Things burst into the continuum, you know? And are these novel events?

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  And I advocated the idea that novelty kind of leaks into the continuum. It kind of oozes into the continuum. For example, you couldn't get to the atomic bomb.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Einstein had to have the idea first about E equals mc squared, and then all these physicists came along and they developed, you know, nuclear reactions, controlled nuclear reactions, all of these things. These were novel events, but they didn't get a lot of attention, but they created the foundation of new discoveries so that when the bomb finally, you know, exploded, it was possible to develop that because the foundation of understanding was there. And that was, those were novel discoveries, but they weren't dramatic, you know, in that way.

• 1:16:13Danny Jones?

  Hmm, yes.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  You know, am I making sense here?

• 1:16:15Danny Jones?

  No, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, you have, yeah.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  So novelty is there all the time.

• 1:16:21Danny Jones?

  Right. Yes. It's a, it's a, it's a compounding progression, right? Things emerge out of other.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:16:30Danny Jones?

  Ideas, bigger ideas emerge from smaller ideas combined, you know, with collaboration and, and the evolution of ideas and, and these things.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  Exactly. And this was, so Terence, you know, he approached this, he was not a mathematician, although the, the, uh, the time wave is a mathematical construct. He was not a statistician, which would have been useful, you know, to bring the theory to it. He was basically a historian and his, so he was mapping with this time wave was his view of history. And, and there are maps of the time wave. I think they're reproduced in, in True Hallucinations, these huge maps. And the idea that time is fractal, that every, every cycle is a reflection of the super

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  cycles and the sub-cycles, so that you could see these historical resonances, you know? And, uh, it's a fascinating idea.

• 1:17:34Danny Jones?

  Hmm, it is.

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  And in some sense, uh, it's true, but I don't think you can redo it, reduce it to, uh, a mathematical construct that you can, you know, I mean, people have redo, put the, the time wave into software and you can run all sorts of programs and, and so on. But, uh, But at the end of the day, it's Terrence's view of history that's being mapped, you know?

• 1:18:03Danny Jones?

  What were, what do you think his primary motivations were with all this stuff? Like, what, what, what drove him?

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  Terrence was a complex person.

• 1:18:17Speaker 01

  Very complex person. I think, I think a few things drove him. I think that

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  first, it was, it was just curiosity. I mean, it was, it was, there was no motivation in really except that an interest in understanding and he, he was having these revelations and, and they seemed valid and he was taking psychedelics and, you know, and he was, he was just a curious person and that's a very good quality in a, in a scientist or anyone else. I mean, I don't think he would call himself a scientist because he dismissed science. He said, "Science, science is never gonna, never gonna answer this," but he, but I think eventually he reached a point

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  where it became a shtick, you know? He built a career on this.

• 1:19:14Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  And talking about the time wave and talking about psychedelics and being such a excellent speaker, you know, I used to tell him, you could stand up there and read the phone book and people would be hanging on every word, you know, because it's not what you say, it's how you say it, you know? And I, this, I used to tell him, he hated for me to go to his, his seminars and so on, because, you know, because I was the only one that would ever stand up and say anything. I would, everybody else is just slack-jawed and I would sometimes get up and say, "Well, what you said 20 minutes ago didn't make sense, you know, and what you're saying now

• 1:19:59Speaker 01

  doesn't make sense and it exactly contradicts what you just said."

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  And he would just say, well, consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  And just carry on.

• 1:20:14Danny Jones?

  Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. Oh, wow.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  So, so, so it became an act in a certain way, and it was, it was a career. People wanted to listen to him. Honestly, his best talks were not about the Brothers McKenna or the time wave idea. I mean, he talked about those things a lot, you know, and these, these ideas. His best talks, in my opinion, were when they drew from his vast knowledge of history and esotericism and alchemy and Jungian psychology and all that. And some of those talks are just mind boggling, you know, and they do not

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  really have to invoke this, this delusion. I mean, this is the thing.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  It's like I had this experience. I had this serious break from reality. Eventually I recovered. And sometimes you could say Terence didn't recover, you know, he remained invested in this illusion, delusion, rather, that began at La Chirera and it really persisted throughout most of his life. And uh, he couldn't let it go, you know, and at a certain point he reached a point where I, I know later in life he had doubts, a lot of doubts. And there were other people who came along who were mathematicians who were better, they actually

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  understand that, understood the time way better than he did and they came forth. And he

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  I think later in life, he began to feel that, you know, the idea wasn't valid, you know, and it really disturbed him. It really dismayed him because by this time it was his career, you know, and I can understand, you know, why he would not want to let it go. Uh, but sometimes you have to let things go, you know, and then of course, at the same time, you know, uh, so I know that the years before the end of his life were very difficult. You know, he was depressed in a lot of ways and,

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  you know, people who, I mean, Terrence was like this huge iconic public figure, you know, but he was also a person. He had a family. He had, you know, a difficult marriage. He had, you know, personal things, the kind of thing that we all have to deal with because we're human, whether we like it or not, and we have to deal with those things. And I think that, uh,

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  his public persona and meeting the expectations of his fan base became,

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  you know, difficult for him, very, uh, almost like he wanted to retreat from it all, you know, in a certain way through self doubt, you know, and, uh, and I used to tell him,

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  well, later in, later as, as he, later in, in life, you know, we, although we had been so close during all this period, we, we sort of drifted apart and, uh, but I, but then when he got sick again, I was there for him very much and I was sort of, I would say, you know, you don't have to believe in this. You don't have to do, you don't have to be anything than, other than just be yourself, you know, because you are a remarkable person and,

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  you, you don't have to meet other people's expectations, you know, but he always sort of, he was reluctant to give that up and I guess anyone would be and.

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  In some sense, I'm always, I'm sort of glad that I never, you know, I sort of didn't like, didn't go for this high public visibility thing.

• 1:24:42Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  Especially after, you know, I mean, I went back to school and I just said, okay, I'm gonna do science, damn it.

• 1:24:49Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna be an ethobotanist, I'm gonna pursue that, that's what I wanna do, and I don't have to be a super famous person. And, and so I did that, and I kinda deliberately stayed in the background, and I pursued these other pathways, you know, which I continue to pursue. And I don't have to, I don't have to tie my, myself or my ideas to a concept that basically you can't prove.

• 1:25:26Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  You know, so.

• 1:25:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  So, so I just said, okay, not that I don't, I mean, it's complicated to talk about, Danny, it's not that I dismiss what went on, I, in some ways, you know, we were twen-, I was twenty when we went to La Trera, Terrence was twenty-four. Most of our lives have been lived in the shadow of the events that happened at that time, you know, but I'm seventy-four now, so a lot of years have gone by since then, and I've lived a life, and I've made a career such that it is, and I've, you know, made contributions to the field of ethobotany, and, you know, mostly that, I mean, some neuroscience, but

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  that was kind of a detour when I did my postdocs, but, but always with, I mean, psychedelics have been the continuing carrot for me and Terrence for all of our lives. I mean, that's what got us fascinated, and we each pursued it in our own way, you know, and I continue to pursue it, but I'm, you know, I'm, I'm.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  You know, it's not my obsession. I'm not fanatical about it. I just think it's they're very valuable. You know, people say, for example, one of the, you know, so you did all these things, you didn't disrupt the space-time continuum, you didn't do any of this, none of this stuff happened. What happened? What was important about that? I'll tell you what was important, as I view it. We brought back the spores of the mushrooms from La Chirera. And we played around with those for a couple of years, trying to figure

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  out how to grow them. Finally, almost by accident, I figured out how to grow them. You know, and the initial, very simple technique, growing these things out of mason jars and all that. Very simple. I basically tried, there was a mycologist, worked for the USDA, who published this paper, in Mycologia, how you could grow small amounts of Agaricus bisporis, in, on sterilized substrates in mason jars for genetic research and that sort of thing. And I had the spores, I had the mycelium, and I decided, well, give it a shot, let's see if it works. And what do you know, it worked very well. So suddenly,

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  mushrooms were back in our lives again. You know, we had access to mushrooms. And, and we were very happy about that. And we decided to publish this book, Psilocybin: Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide, which is still available. And, and we published it, and it got a lot of notice. And now, of course, there are lots of simpler, better ways to grow mushrooms. This was a very, but it was a simple technique that almost anybody could do. And we published this book, and it got a lot of notice. So people say, what was the, what was the real impact of, of...

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  Our trip to La Chirera, that was the impact, you know, this had a tangible effect on society. Because it brought mushrooms basically within the reach of anyone. You know, anyone with a bit of patience and a spare room could grow lots of mushrooms if they wanted to. And we did, and those mushrooms got out there, the book got out there. So that was, that had a social impact. Nothing supernatural about it or anything. It was just, we sort of stumbled on this method and we shared, shared that method. And that's had a big impact because

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  at that period, you know psychedelics were not popular. Psychedelics were, you know, very much oppressed by the government and a lot of people were scared. But it, it, people that were really interested had a way to, uh, as Terrence, sometimes as he once said, just a simple way to get great dope out of mason jars. And people did. And it kept it, it kept them a sort of alive and, and in, and people's attention. So then later, when clinicians and people like that decided that they're, wanted to, you know, start working with psychedelics, mushrooms were obviously the one to, the one to, to use.

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  Because, because in some ways mushrooms are the ideal psychedelic. You know, more than LSD or mescaline or some of these things.

• 1:30:24Danny Jones?

  More than DMT?

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  More than DMT.

• 1:30:27Danny Jones?

  Why is that?

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  Again, because the DMT only lasts 20 minutes.

• 1:30:33Danny Jones?

  Right, right. Well, unless you do it with the ayahuasca in the form of ayahuasca.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  If you do it with ayahuasca, it lasts, yeah, six hours or so. But ayahuasca is a botanical formulation. It's complex and all that. And, uh, but psilocybin, you can, you can synthesize it. And of course, clinical trials, you know, the FDA likes. They want to work with pure compounds. They're very biased toward pure compounds. You can work with natural drugs, but generally if you're like an investigator like Roland Giffes, for example, at Johns Hopkins, people that started doing clinical studies, you know, they expect you to do it with with pure compounds. And psilocybin's easy to make if you're a good chemist.

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  Albert Hofmann synthesized it in 1958. And and so it sort of kept it on the radar. And then when people were looking at it from a therapeutic point of view, psilocybin seemed a natural, you know, a natural choice. And it has a lot of things that recommend it, you know, because it, you know, it lasts about the right amount of time. It's six or seven hours. The law like LSD is 12 to 18 hours, depending. Mescaline is you have to take higher doses and it lasts a long time. So it lasts about the same time.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  It it's very non-toxic. It's totally compatible with human metabolism. And it's a kick-ass psychedelic. I mean, depending on the dose, it can be a fairly mild experience, but still very interesting. Or in a higher experience, it can be, you know, complete with visions and and and all that. And it can really be, you know, it can really be therapeutic, you know. Like Wade Wade Davis often says, a story he tells, he said, well, you know, our parents back in the 60s, they say, you must never take these things because if you do,

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  you'll never be the same again. That's the fucking point.

• 1:32:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:32:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's and that goes to something I wanted to ask you. Like, what is, do you think there is a fundamental change in the brain that lasts and how long does it last when you when you take these psychedelics? Whether it be ayahuasca, DMT, or psilocybin? And is there like a something that is unlocked?

• 1:33:18Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. The answer is.

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• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  The data is coming out that in fact, there are long-term changes in the brain of a, in a beneficial way. So there are short-term changes, there's the trip that you have, you know? And the trip that you have, the therapeutic sort of mechanism behind the, behind the benefits of psychedelics, whether it's psilocybin or LSD or whatever. You've heard of this concept of the default mode network? Well, that's a, that's a neuroscience term. The default mode network is basically...

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  The neural mechanisms that feedback, internal neural feedback mechanisms that maintain what we call ordinary consciousness effectively. Okay. You know, our focus on space and time, our sense of self and being localized. Ordinary consciousness. Okay. That's the default mode network. Most of the time, the default mode network is where you want to be. You know, because you want to be functional. You want to be able to drive a car and get up and go to work, pay the mortgage, do these things, you know, ordinary functioning. But it can also be a trap.

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  And particularly for people with like intractable depression and that sort of thing, their default mode network in some ways is dysfunctional and they don't, you know, they're, they're in these, in these feedback loops that are, that are harmful, that are not supporting their mental health. What the psychedelics do is they temporarily disable that default mode network. They effectively let you step out of your reference frame. That's another way to think about it. Lets you look at your situation from a different perspective. You've stepped out of your reference frame.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  So if you look at your, your depression or your trauma, your addiction, or various problems that you're facing, you could look at that in a different way. And in that way, you can sort of diffuse it. You can, you can sort of overcome that and you can resolve a lot of those things, you know? So that's the immediate, uh, you know, therapeutic benefit of something like psilocybin. And it may, one session may do it, or it may take two or three. But basically it will resolve it. However, what they now know is there are persistent changes that last longer than

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  that, long after the trip is, is over. What we're seeing is, uh, and by we, I mean neuroscientists, not me. So, you know, this is all in the literature. What's happening is there is a change in connectivity of the synapses in the brain, sort of a re-

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Arbor's re-change that reflects these changes that you're having in the therapeutic state. Connectivity and also the two words are synaptic genesis, forming of connections between neurons and neurogenesis, which is growth actually of new neurons.

• 1:38:20Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  Psilocybin and other psychedelics initiate these processes. So, yes, it rewires your brain in ways that are beneficial largely.

• 1:38:34Danny Jones?

  I noticed this, this could have been placebo, but I noticed after the DMT, which I've never noticed with anything else, is that I felt like I was thinking differently.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do.

• 1:38:46Danny Jones?

  Like I was thinking, I was able to see problems from multiple angles at once. It was, it was very strange.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. It changes, it changes your perspective on things. And this, this can be very, very helpful and very therapeutic, particularly if you're trying, if you're dealing with something like intractable depression, I mean, so-called major depressive disorder, which is a clinically defined state, is what psilocybin was initially approved for in clinical studies. But now that it's getting approved, it's applied to all these other things. For example, smoking cessation. There are studies with smoking cessation with psilocybin.

• 1:39:33Speaker 01

  Lifetime, serious cigarette addicts, three pack a day people over decades, you know. The treatment with psilocybin over, you know, three or four treatments with the proper integration, preparation, all that, three or four treatments, eighty percent of those people stopped smoking.

• 1:39:57Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Just stopped. And you know why? I think, I mean, being experienced myself with psilocybin and also a former smoker.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  Psilocybin didn't make me stop smoking, various other things did.

• 1:40:17Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  But I think what it they, what people, you know, if they come into it with a real sincere desire to stop smoking.

• 1:40:24Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  You know, they have this experience and they look at what they're doing to their body and how, you know, they're poisoning themselves. And it's like, their reaction is repulsion and or revulsion, you know, and it's like, they, they're able to stop.

• 1:40:46Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  And no other treatment for smoking cessation even comes close. Eighty percent of the sample, these were lifelong smokers.

• 1:40:55Danny Jones?

  That's so fascinating.

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  This all, this is all done at Johns Hopkins. This is Matt Johnson's work, basically, one of Roland Griffith's proteges at the time. So that's an example of what of these things. But the thing is, you do not have to be sick to benefit from psychedelics, you know.

• 1:41:16Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:41:16Speaker 01

  I mean, it, it, it's approved for therapeutic uses, but, uh, things like PTSD and addiction and so on.

• 1:41:28Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  But, uh, it can be used to benefit well people as well, because it does. It improves your outlook. It improves the way that you think. Uh, in fact, uh, one of my colleagues, I was gonna recommend that you bring him on the podcast, a good friend of mine, Anne Terrence, a guy named Bruce Damer.

• 1:41:52Danny Jones?

  How do you spell his last name?

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  D A M E R.

• 1:42:00Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:42:02Speaker 01

  He, uh, so he's, he's an exobiologist. He's, uh, uh,

• 1:42:11Speaker 01

  An engineer and a biochemist and he studies, exobiology is the study of extraterrestrial life. Well, there is no extraterrestrial life that we have to study right now. So what we have, what he studies is the origin of life. And he and his colleagues have developed some very groundbreaking theories about the origin of life. And you can look him up, you can look up his website and all that. But what's interesting is that psychedelics has been very useful to him as a creative tool, effectively as a scientific tool.

• 1:42:52Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  Tool for thinking about nature and new processes. He's even founded an organization called Minds.org, which is he and some colleagues are developing structured protocols to use psychedelics to apply to scientific problems. Because again, it's this ability to step out of your usual reference frame.

• 1:43:19Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  You can look at your own problems. You can also look at nature. And you can see things about processes, about natural processes that you miss. One of the things I often say about psychedelics, they bring the background forward.

• 1:43:37Danny Jones?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:43:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:40Danny Jones?

  Great way of putting it.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  What this, that's the default mode network. The default mode network is defined by what it excludes from your awareness, right? Because it makes sure that your attention is focused on the immediate things you need to survive. And if you're on the freeway at, you know, 90 miles an hour, you really don't want elves materializing out of the, you know, you don't need that. That's not.

• 1:44:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  But if, but if, if you let, if in a controlled state, and this is why the concept of set and setting is so important, in the proper set and setting, you're in a situation where you could let that default mode network dissolve. And, and then.

• 1:44:29Speaker 01

  All the things that it's filtering out can come in and you can experience them in a non-threatening situation. And you can experience this background, which is always there, but we're genetically and evolutionarily programmed to exclude those things, especially in the West. If you, an indigenous person has much less of this. If you go into a forest with an indigenous person, you know, who lives in nature, that person is likely to know, to notice processes that are always going on, but you don't see them. You don't see them until they're pointed out, right? Because you're programmed not to see them.

• 1:45:13Danny Jones?

  Like, what kind of processes are you talking about?

• 1:45:15Speaker 01

  Just anything you might look at, you know, the way, the way an anthill works, you know, the way the sunlight, the sun lands on a leaf, the way, you know, the way ecosystems work and all of this, you can sort of, psychedelics can be a lens, effectively, it's like a scientific instrument. You can train that, you can look at phenomena, maybe things that you've looked at before that you feel that you understand very well. But when you look at them from the psychedelic perspective, you notice things that you never noticed before. And this has been proven. I mean, there are people who've won Nobel prizes based on this.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  Carey Mullis, for example, is famous for, you know, he discovered the PCR.

• 1:46:06Danny Jones?

  PCR, yeah.

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he's quite out front. He was like LSD, you know, gave me the tools to understand this process, that gave me the ability to, as he put it, get down among the molecules and see what was going on. And so Bruce Damer and his colleagues are effectively, they're trying to develop, you know, structured protocols to, to use psychedelics for, for this kind of thing, for problems in physics, chemistry, mathematics, and so on. All these people are, you know, obviously far-gone nerds, but very, very smart people.

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  And Bruce is just an amazing, amazing person. He's given talks at

• 1:46:57Speaker 01

  Our ESPD conferences, the last one, ESPD is something the McKenna Academy did, the Ethno-Formicologic Search for Psychoactive Drugs was one of two conferences that we did. And the ESPD 55 was in 2022. If people go to the website, they can see that you can listen to Bruce's talk and all the other talks too. You might want to put, draw that, that conference to people's attention. And just, just, he's an incredibly brilliant mind, you know, and all the people that he's

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  working with. And he also, another interesting thing about Bruce is he, he, he is one of these people that, you know, he's one of these people that naturally can get into this psychedelic place. He talks about Endowaska, you know, he, he's, seems to be someone that's able to induce psychedelic experiences based on his own neurochemistry.

• 1:48:08Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  You know, there are people like this. And he told me, he's told me, that's why I never took psychedelics for so long, because I didn't really want to disrupt this, you know. I told him, forget it, Bruce, take psychedelics. And he did.

• 1:48:23Danny Jones?

  What, what took me so long to, to jump to the DMT thing, to experiment with DMT was because my only experience is with marijuana and I'm of, I'm an extreme lightweight. So I could many times go way overboard by accident to where I'm white knuckling my chair and hurling through the void of my deepest, darkest fears. And everything is coming at me at once and it's, everything is the worst case scenario. Every, every worst case scenario I can imagine in my life is, is all happening to me simultaneously and it's terrifying.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:06Danny Jones?

  And that wasn't the experience with DMT. But, but going back to that, even though it's so terrifying and, and my worst fears are creeping in. There's always something positive I can take from it.

• 1:49:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:49:19Danny Jones?

  There's always at least one thing where I'll be like, oh, where's the, I need a pen. Where's the pen? I need to, I need to write this down, like something I can pull out of that alien realm that is going to be extremely useful for me.

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. You can do that. And this is, this is where, you know, uh, nobody wants to have terrifying experiences, but sometimes it does. This is where set and setting comes in. You know, especially with these strong psychedelics. You have to pay attention to set and setting. And like, I assume that a lot of your terrifying experiences were on cannabis, right? Cannabis can be very

• 1:49:57Danny Jones?

  Eating it specifically.

• 1:49:58Speaker 01

  Much like a psychedelic at high doses, you know? And, uh, but set and setting are the key variables. Leary and Metzner and all these people were right back in the sixties. They were talking about it. So setting obviously is, uh, uh, setting is where you do it. I mean, you want to do it in a place that you feel comfortable, that you feel safe. Those are the main things that, you know, are whether outside or inside or whatever. That's less important as long as you feel like you're in a safe environment. Cause you're deliberately so putting yourself in a situation where you have to let all

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  your defenses down, all this dissolve this default mode network, let it dissolve. That can be very frightening and a lot of people, you know, have a hard time, but so put yourself in a place where you could just say, whatever happens, I'm not going to die. I'm safe. These drugs are not going to kill me. It's okay, you know? Set is much more complicated. It's people say, sometimes people say, well, set is your intention or what you want out of the trip and so on. Well, it is partly that, but set to my mind is you. Set is everything you bring to it. Every your whole life, whatever you've learned, whatever you know, all of those things,

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  that's the that's the set, right? That you bring to it, that's interacting in this setting that you very deliberately structured.

• 1:51:31Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  You know, and then the other two variables here, which are rarely mentioned, but obviously maybe there should be more, the other two variables, set and setting, but then what is the medicine and what is the dose? You know, because those things are going to influence it too.

• 1:51:48Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:51:49Speaker 01

  And this is what shamanism is useful for. I mean, in ayahuasca, for example, it's almost always taken in a group. And there's a curandero or a shaman or whatever you want to call that person, they are the person that are structuring this set and setting, the structuring the setting, basically through songs, through blowing smoke, through maybe other types of audio things, you know, other types of things. But basically, they are controlling the set, the setting, so that people can relax into it. And they're and shamans, you know, if they're good, I hate the word shaman because it's

• 1:52:34Speaker 01

  it's a Siberian word and the and the curanderos are not shaman. Curandero is probably a better word or ayahuasca. But but these people, men and women, if they're experienced, they know how to do this, you know, and they, in this state, they get very tuned in to everyone in the group, you know, almost telepathically. I mean, they can tell if you're having a hard time, you know, they can they can tell, come over, blow a little mapacho smoke on you, maybe sing a song in front of you, maybe get you calmed down, you know, or get you redirect what you're doing. That's their job.

• 1:53:18Speaker 01

  That's what shamans do. So this idea of taking high amounts of these things.

• 1:53:29Speaker 01

  You know, it's good to have somebody like that or have a therapist, you know, therapist can do it. I think, I think psychotherapy, like psychedelic psychotherapy is evolving more toward what shamans do. You know, that integrating some of those methodologies into.

• 1:53:47Danny Jones?

  Yeah, you have then there's like tele, telemedicine shamans now. You can literally like order a shaman to come to your house and do this whole thing with you now.

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:53:56Danny Jones?

  Right? Like that's a service that people provide now.

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  Right. Here's your Uber call.

• 1:54:03Danny Jones?

  Just get on your app and order your shaman and you're, you're ready to roll.

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is all right. This is good. I mean, I, I think it's good. I think it's good to have. You know, what we used to call a sitter and sometimes a sitter is enough.

• 1:54:17Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I think so too.

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  Be a shaman, but maybe just a trusted friend.

• 1:54:22Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:54:22Speaker 01

  Not even necessarily in the same room, but you know, if you get upset, hey,

• 1:54:29Speaker 01

  having a hard time, come in and pat my knee or whatever, you know, and, and because you know, you're putting yourself in a unusual state that can be terrifying. But, but as you point out, there's always something to be learned, you know?

• 1:54:49Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:54:49Speaker 01

  Even the terrifying experiences are, uh, sometimes they're the most valuable experiences.

• 1:54:55Danny Jones?

  Most valuable, definitely. Yeah. It's a great thing to use as a tool. And so it's why it's so frustrating that our, our culture and, and our society and the, and our government, which is co-opted by, you know, businesses and pharmaceutical industries and things like this, that, that pressure our society to outcast these things.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:17Danny Jones?

  And, and label them as these evil substances that will kill you and they're, you know, it, it just,

• 1:55:28Danny Jones?

  it seems like it's just.

• 1:55:31Danny Jones?

  It's we're going in the wrong direction, you know.

• 1:55:34Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's changing though, particularly with psychedelics. I mean psychedelics. There's a lot of research has accumulated now to show that they do have these benefits that if properly used, they can be used, they're not harmful and they can be very helpful. So it's kind of shifted the conversation from what it used to be even well. This has all been happening since basically since Roland Griffith started working with psilocybin and getting FDA approval and, and you know, playing it straight in terms of he was a, you know, serious neuroscientist and so on. But now their benefits are being, uh, being recognized.

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  But here, here's the thing, any.

• 1:56:22Speaker 01

  I look at, I look at psychedelics are, they're basically a technology.

• 1:56:26Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:27Speaker 01

  Any technology can be misused, you know, and any technology will be misused. You can be sure of it, you know, a lot of times there are whole issues about people, you know, shamans or self styled shamans that use that to, to dominate people to, you know, sexual abuse, all of this stuff. Not that this doesn't happen in therapeutic, so-called therapeutic situations.

• 1:56:54Danny Jones?

  It happens in anything.

• 1:56:55Speaker 01

  In anything. What, uh, the problem with, that I think in the conversation about drugs, it's always been the drugs are identified as the demons. Drugs are just drugs. They just have the properties that they have. The moral quality of how you use them comes from us, you know, and that's true of any technology.

• 1:57:17Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  The choices we make in terms of how to use the technology, be it drugs or atomic weaponry or anything, it comes down to us. We're the moral compass, not the, the technologies.

• 1:57:33Speaker 01

  Neutral.

• 1:57:34Danny Jones?

  But the biggest difference is it doesn't, it doesn't prey on those desires. Like it doesn't, other drugs like alcohol or nicotine or these other things, they all rely on this dopaminergic pathway and you get addicted to it. And now you're using it to suppress other things. You're using it to suppress your, whether it be depression or any other sort of psychological thing you have going on.

• 1:58:00Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:58:01Danny Jones?

  Where it can just send you down this vicious spiral, this dark spiral. But with the psychedelics, it's not, it's not something that you're gonna be, in most cases, addicted to and abusing. It's something that people are gonna use as a tool. Like, like most people, when you talk to them about their DMT experiences or their, their psychedelic mushroom experiences, you'll ask them, they'll, they'll talk about it like they just got done tripping. But then you'll say, like, when's the last time you did it? I'll be like, oh, like eight months ago. A year ago?

• 1:58:34Speaker 01

  No, you, you don't necessarily go back to the well and drink again. They, they did, they do not have this reinforcing, reinforcing effect. And that's exactly what you, what, that's exactly right. These, these other drugs work through the dope amnergic pathway. And they, they reinforce you. You do it and you wanna do it again and you wanna do it again. And it's very, very hard to throw that off.

• 1:59:03Danny Jones?

  Cocaine is one of those.

• 1:59:04Speaker 01

  Cocaine is. Yeah, we will talk about that in that sense. Cocaine is definitely one of those. And, and psychedelics can be useful again by letting you step out of your reference frame and look at this addiction process. Maybe it's alcohol, maybe it's cocaine, maybe it's heroin, maybe it's, you know, tobacco. All of these things work directly or indirectly through this dope amnergic pathway. So does sex for that matter. Sex involves anything that you really sort of pushes the pleasure button. Naturally, you wanna repeat it.

• 1:59:48Speaker 01

  But there's a point at which it becomes unhealthy, it becomes an obsession. And so, looking at it through the perspective of psychedelics can help you get a handle on that. It helps you step away from it, it helps you diffuse it. And, uh, and that's, that's the, that's the therapeutic, uh, power when it comes to addiction. It's all about this default mode network. And people, you know, this default mode network, like we said, uh, it's very useful. It's, it's, it's where you wanna be most of the time. I, I don't like the term default mode network. I call it the reality hallucination.

• 2:00:27Danny Jones?

  The reality hallucination.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  Our brain synthesizes a model of reality. You talked about simulations?

• 2:00:35Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:00:36Speaker 01

  You know, um, this, this guy with the DMT and the simulations?

• 2:00:39Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  I'm here to tell you, we are all in a simulation. Everybody's in a simulation. Our brains simulate a model of reality. You know, we live in that model of reality. We don't know what reality itself is because we're in this model of reality. And, uh, it's defined largely by what doesn't get through. I mean, uh, I mean-

• 2:01:04Danny Jones?

  This is like the brain filter hypothesis.

• 2:01:06Speaker 01

  It's exactly the brain filter hypothesis. The information comes to us through our sensory neural interfaces, kinda gets all mixed together inside, you know, and, and extrudes a model of reality, which is what we experience as ordinary consciousness.

• 2:01:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:25Speaker 01

  And then you can introduce another pharmacology or something else into it, a drug, meditation, another practice, you can change that model of reality. But you're always trapped in that model of reality. We can't even say that much about, because we can't even say that much about what's, what's outside that model, because-

• 2:01:51Speaker 01

  You take psychedelics and you realize the concept of inside and outside don't make sense, you know, you're not really separated.

• 2:01:59Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  You know, you know, we are all one, right? That is the, uh, that's the psychedelic cliche, but it's true.

• 2:02:07Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:02:08Speaker 01

  You know, we're not separated.

• 2:02:10Danny Jones?

  This is like Jung's idea of the archipelago of consciousness, right?

• 2:02:13Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly, yeah.

• 2:02:15Danny Jones?

  Where we're all connected under the water, but there's above, we're all little individual islands.

• 2:02:20Speaker 01

  Right, we appear to be separate and, and I'm, I'm a serious Jungian and so was Terence. Jung was a deep influence and I think that's exactly, that's exactly what's going on. So, so this, this reality hallucination, you know, we can be grateful that we have it because it makes us functional, but it could also go off track.

• 2:02:48Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  It could be dysfunctional.

• 2:02:50Danny Jones?

  Well, it's millions of years of, of our brains evolving to survive, right? And to, to evolve and to, uh, push our species into the future.

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and when it, you know, when it does get disrupted, it's a problem, but then we come along and we say, well, my, you can say, well, my, my reality, my reality hallucination is turning into a bummer.

• 2:03:14Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:03:15Speaker 01

  You know, it's, it's not fun anymore. And then you can, you can take a psychedelic, you can disrupt it.

• 2:03:20Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:03:21Speaker 01

  You can reprogram it and you don't have to worry because the brain and physiological systems in general, they'll tend toward equilibrium, you know? It's gonna fall back together. It's gonna fall back together in most cases. I mean, some people don't, but very rarely does, do people not recover from psychedelics? And, and even if there's a prolonged.

• 2:03:46Danny Jones?

  What do you mean recover? You mean like they stay in the trap?

• 2:03:49Speaker 01

  Get back to ordinary reality.

• 2:03:50Danny Jones?

  Oh, there's people that stay there?

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  It's been known, yes.

• 2:03:55Danny Jones?

  Oh my God.

• 2:03:58Danny Jones?

  What do they do?

• 2:04:00Speaker 01

  Well, they end up in, you know, they end up in, uh, in, uh, mental hospitals, you know, talking to, uh, entities that aren't there.

• 2:04:09Danny Jones?

  This is one of my biggest fears.

• 2:04:11Speaker 01

  That's everybody's biggest fear, man.

• 2:04:14Danny Jones?

  Is it?

• 2:04:15Speaker 01

  But it's, well, often, but it's, it, it, it's very rare, for one thing, even if you have these prolonged states like, like my lottery experience, I mean, I was just dissociated from reality as anybody could possibly be. If I was still in that place, people would just say, oh, poor Dennis, he just never made it back, you know?

• 2:04:39Danny Jones?

  Could you imagine, like, imagine if you were never able to make it back and articulate what it was?

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  Well, I, I was scared about it.

• 2:04:48Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 2:04:49Speaker 01

  But, uh, but it did come back. And the interesting thing, yeah, hallucinogen persisting perception disorder.

• 2:04:57Danny Jones?

  What does it say? Non-psychotic disorder in which a person experiences apparent lasting or persistent visual hallucinations or perceptual distortions using drugs. Oh yeah, there's this guy who, um, his name's Andrew, uh, Callahan or something like that. He's got a, uh, he's got a, he's a really cool documentary and makes a kind of like run and gun documentaries on YouTube. And he talks about how he's experienced with, he experimented with, I think it was LSD when he was really young, I think like in his, uh, when he was like 10 or 11. And he still sees these visual hallucinations in his, just in his visual field. Like he's not tripping per se, like as you were.

• 2:05:37Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:05:38Danny Jones?

  But he just has the visual part of it.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  That's, that's one of the symptoms of this, exactly.

• 2:05:44Danny Jones?

  And that probably happens more when you're a kid, right? When you're young.

• 2:05:47Speaker 01

  Right. And you don't have the neural mechanisms to, to reintegrate.

• 2:05:54Speaker 01

  Interesting that you mentioned that. You should put the McKenna Academy website back up because we are having a seminar, we're having a virtual seminar in April called, on this very topic. It's called, uh, can you go back, go to programs? So this is a virtual seminar that we're, that we're doing in April.

• 2:06:18Speaker 01

  And this is gonna be, this is talking about this, you know, psychotics and psychosis.

• 2:06:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  And spiritual emergencies. If you scroll down, you can see the people doing it. And it's gonna be a very interesting one-day virtual conference. One of our board members, Dr. Ranji Varghese, who is a psychiatrist, he has a ketamine clinic. But he's one of our board members. He's gonna talk, and then these other people are going to talk, including a couple of curanderos. And all of this was sort of triggered by Lee Kaiser there on the right.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  Lee's a good friend of mine, and he's done a lot of medicine work with ayahuasca in the Sacred Valley. He's been into it for years. And he has had several of these psychotic interactions as a result of ayahuasca.

• 2:07:26Danny Jones?

  Psychotic, what are you talking about?

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  Psychotic, so we just say prolonged dissociations from reality, whatever they are. Psychosis is such a hard word. But shall we say, you know, he's had a couple of these, and so a lot of it, he's gonna share his experience.

• 2:07:45Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:07:46Speaker 01

  The indigenous people, Enrique and Louver, have, were involved in helping him get straightened out, get back to reality, using their traditional techniques. And they were, they were far more effective than psychiatrists, you know.

• 2:08:08Danny Jones?

  I had a friend once tell me that he used to take mushrooms all the time, this was a long time ago. And he say when he was tripping too hard, he would just do cocaine and it would pull him right out of it.

• 2:08:18Speaker 01

  That's possible. That's possible. I know that's rather surprising, but it's possible because cocaine is going to focus you. You know, I wouldn't reach for cocaine as necessarily the the antidote to psychedelics, but maybe it brought him back to a point where he could, you know, sort of come out of that.

• 2:08:38Danny Jones?

  When it comes to like, the drugs that are legal and illegal and what are banned, and what we're not allowed to use, and what are only approved for like, certain therapies, right? It's just like, it's, it's, what they don't, what people don't realize is we are literally walking bags of drugs.

• 2:08:58Speaker 01

  Good point.

• 2:08:59Danny Jones?

  That we're never in a, in a, we're never in one state. Our state is constantly evolving depending on what chemicals are taking over and, and the balance. It's just a constant balance of drugs and chemicals in our bodies.

• 2:09:12Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:09:13Danny Jones?

  And it's so fun to experiment and offset that balance a little bit and see how that if it affects us positively or negatively.

• 2:09:20Speaker 01

  That's exactly it. Yes, you touched on a point that I often make. We're made of drugs. That's the thing. We are biochemical engines that work on drugs. You know, neurotransmitters, enzymes, hormones, all of this, we're biochemical engines. And maybe more than that. I'd like to think that we've, you know, there's a spiritual aspect, but, you know, the functioning body is a biochemical machine that runs on drugs. So this is why drugs have their effect. If you, you know, DMT, for example, we know that it occurs in the brain, you know, rather high levels, you know, and, and, you know, I mean, it's there. It's actually a

• 2:10:03Speaker 01

  neurotransmitter. And there's, you know, recent work has shown, originally, it was sort of the focus was all about the pineal gland.

• 2:10:12Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:10:13Speaker 01

  And that, that data is not so valid anymore. The, the, the pineal gland does make DMT, but not enough to have an effect. But there are whole new neurotransmitter systems that have been identified for which DMT is basically the neurotransmitter at levels comparable to serotonin.

• 2:10:36Danny Jones?

  DMT is in pretty much everything, right?

• 2:10:39Speaker 01

  In fact, DMT is in everything. It's true. And you know why it's in everything?

• 2:10:47Speaker 01

  It's because DMT is the simplest, molecularly, the simplest psychedelic. And it comes from tryptophan. Tryptophan is an amino acid, one of the 20 that comes, that it makes up proteins, right? So tryptophan is an every living thing, you know, every living thing, because it's one of the 20. And there are enzymes. DMT is two steps from tryptophan. There are enzymes that take off the carboxyl group, tryptophan is amino acid.

• 2:11:29Speaker 01

  Decarboxylases, this class of enzymes called decarboxylases, remove the acid group and then you get amines. So you get tryptophan, you remove the carboxyl group, you get tryptamine. You stick two methyl groups on that, another enzyme comes along called enmethyltransferase. I love biochemistry because the name of enzymes describe what they do, right? Enmethyltransferase, it sticks methyl, methyl groups on things, CH3 groups on things. So two steps from tryptophan, you get DMT. And then from that, you get all these variations.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  Buphothanine, fibothoxy DMT, psilocybin, you get this whole tryptamine family of, most of which are psychoactive. But DMT is the primary hallucinogenic or psychedelic tryptamine. And it's the simplest one. It's not orally active. And actually, you know, you could eat plants that contain DMT, and people do, it's the part of some people's diet, but because they're not taking MAO inhibitors, they never suspect they're taking a hallucinogen.

• 2:12:48Speaker 01

  For example, DMT occurs in oranges and lemons and things like that, at low levels, you know, but it's there. DMT.

• 2:13:00Speaker 01

  I think there are thousands of plants that contain DMT. It's not rare at all. Not all plants express DMT in great quantities, but it's there. And then some do actually produce significant amounts of it, you know, like acacias, for example. Acacia, which is primarily, I mean, acacia is about 1,200 genera, or 1,200 species. All through Africa, mostly Australia concentrated. Some of the most potent sources of DMT and other tryptamines are found in acacias.

• 2:13:41Speaker 01

  Which ironically, happens to be, they're known as, generically, they're known as wattles. In Australia, the wattle is the national tree of Australia. Hmm. There's no record that Aborigines used these things, but they have been there. And my theory is that there's probably trace amounts of DMT in all plants. You know, because of these, these enzymes, decarboxylases and N-methyltransferases. They're pretty much involved in cellular processes at all levels.

• 2:14:23Speaker 01

  So, nobody's gonna do this, and nobody's gonna fund it. But I'll bet if you went out and just started picking plants at random and analyzing them for DMT, you would find trace amounts of DMT. And in some cases, large amounts. And those are the ones that have become utilized, like the chakruna. Sacotria, which is the admixture plant for ayahuasca. Or these Anadenanthra snuffs, that are, the seeds are made into stuff. Or the ukuhay that we were talking about, the varolas. They contain large amounts of DMT. And indigenous people have, you know, they're very clever. They wanna get high, just like everybody does.

• 2:15:06Speaker 01

  But they become very clever in identifying these plants and learning how to prepare them. Yeah, I mean, and even through history, imagine how much drugs people were doing through antiquity, right? Like, they didn't have the, the cultural boundaries and guidelines and sanctions, if you want to put it that way, around society, right? Like, they didn't have to follow these, they don't, they didn't have to, to, to fit into these norms. They were probably just roaming around, trying to have sex and get high and eat, pretty much.

• 2:15:42Danny Jones?

  Right?

• 2:15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, this goes back to the whole stoned ape theory.

• 2:15:47Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  That's another, that's another rabbit hole we could go down.

• 2:15:51Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:52Speaker 01

  You know?

• 2:15:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:53Speaker 01

  But, uh.

• 2:15:54Danny Jones?

  That's a, I think that's one of my favorite theories that Terrence came up with. Um, it makes a lot, it's much more easy to comprehend than Time Wave Zero.

• 2:16:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it, it may, it's another one of these theories. It's, it's, yeah, it's circumstantial evidence, but it's probably true. Terrence actually didn't come up with it. It was my idea.

• 2:16:19Danny Jones?

  Oh, it was your idea?

• 2:16:20Speaker 01

  But, you know, we shared ideas. I mean, he wrote the book, Food of the Gods, with, and he, you know, it's a great book. If you haven't read it, it's

• 2:16:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:31Speaker 01

  It's definitely worth reading. And it's, it is this idea about, but I have elaborated on that idea. And, uh, what's interesting, uh, he, he suggests that, that, uh, mushrooms were used quite by ancient civilizations. Uh, and I theor, uh, my theory is that mushrooms were probably the oldest psychedelic that humans have ever used and may have been used as long ago as two million years. And may have had a lot to do with the evolution of

• 2:17:15Speaker 01

  our neural structures and our consciousness.

• 2:17:20Speaker 01

  Don't look at me like that. This is not such a crazy idea. There's inferential evidence for this. So we know that hominid populations evolved in Africa around 2 million years ago. And although the fossil record is, you know, incomplete, obviously, but we have a pretty good idea of the lineage, you know, there are fossils of starting with the first true hominids, Homo habilis was probably the first hominid. And then there

• 2:17:58Speaker 01

  were different lineages that appeared. Homo erectus was part of this. There wasn't a single lineage. There was actually various species in this environment that were interacting and interbreeding with each other. And eventually, some emerged as the dominant species. So Homo habilis, Homo erectus, eventually Homo sapiens. And over about 2 million years, the size and complexity of the human brain expanded, basically tripled inside. Homo

• 2:18:37Speaker 01

  habilis, the brain of Homo habilis was small by comparison, about 500 cubic centimeters. Homo erectus, somewhat larger, maybe 1,000 cubic centimeters. There you go. That's, yeah.

• 2:18:53Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah. We went over this with, uh...

• 2:18:54Speaker 01

  Was it Gallimore?

• 2:18:56Danny Jones?

  No, we went over this with Michael Masters.

• 2:18:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that could be. I've got another chart.

• 2:19:02Danny Jones?

  He's an anthropologist.

• 2:19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is, yeah, this is, this is a good one. So Homo sapiens has the largest brain. Actually, Homo neanderthals have a slightly bigger brain.

• 2:19:16Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:19:17Speaker 01

  But they're also much bigger people than Homo sapiens. So, brain to body mass, that's about 1,500 centimeters, you know. And so, so the fossil evidence is there. What's also there is that in this environment, there's fossil evidence that there were cattle. These have been found. These people were living with cattle. They were hunting cattle. They were probably eating cattle. If you got cattle, you've got mushrooms.

• 2:19:49Danny Jones?

  Would it have to be cattle? Could it be any other sort of megafauna?

• 2:19:53Speaker 01

  It could have been. It could have been. I mean, yeah. It doesn't have to be cow shit that mushroom grows on.

• 2:20:01Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:20:01Speaker 01

  But we do know from cop fossil evidence that the ancestors of the modern cow uh was in this environment at that time. And we know from paleoclimatology that it was a wet environment. The Sahara is a desert now, right? But at that time, from paleoclimatological data, we know that it was a wet. Uh, there were seasonal rains, at least there were late. It was late country. It was savannah. So there was megafauna of all sorts. It was, it was a humid, wet environment. There had to be mushrooms.

• 2:20:39Danny Jones?

  Yes, right.

• 2:20:40Speaker 01

  There just had to be mushrooms there because psilocybin compenses. If you go to any similar tropical environment these days, wet with sabu cattle or similar cows, you're gonna find these mushrooms. I mean, they, they're just there. They follow the cows. And uh, so in this, and, and these mushrooms in the environment, they're not, they're not difficult to spot. I mean, they're big, they're robust. So if you're a hungry hominid looking for something to eat, sooner or later, sooner rather than later, you're gonna sample these and then who knows what that effect would be. But then that's where,

• 2:21:22Speaker 01

  you know, these long-term effects of psilocybin on the neural, neural reorganization can begin to kick in, right? But what, what propagates that over evolutionary time? Well, this process, which is known as uh,

• 2:21:45Speaker 01

  God, epigenetics.

• 2:21:48Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:21:49Speaker 01

  Epigenetics is a mechanism where effectively for acquired characteristics being propagated over generations.

• 2:21:58Danny Jones?

  And trauma as well, right?

• 2:22:00Speaker 01

  Trauma, yes, all these kinds of things. Drug, other kinds of drugs, other kind of not so good drugs will also propagate. So Lamarckianism used to be, was a theory of evolution that was kind of debunked, you know, that was like, well, giraffes have long necks because they're always straining to get the leaves at the top of trees, right? So eventually they got long-necked. There was something to that. It didn't, eventually they got long-necked. There wasn't maybe a, a environmental influence, a selection. The tallest giraffes got the leaves. That's how

• 2:22:41Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:22:41Speaker 01

  natural selection works. But this happens on a more biochemical level and it has to do with the unwrapping of segments of DNA that are bound up in these bodies called histones in the chromosomes. And under the effect of environmental influences, these, these, these, these inaccessible segments of DNA could be unbound.

• 2:23:16Speaker 02

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• 2:23:46Speaker 01

  And expressed. And if the neural changes are related to that, the activation of these segments of DNA, then that could actually be propagated across generations.

• 2:23:57Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 2:23:58Speaker 01

  So that's a plausible mechanism for the stoned ape theory. It's not so crazy. It's like, of course. What else can you think of? That would lead to this complexification of the brain? Other than the fact that hominids in this environment were extremely, you know, were exposed to all sorts of environmental pressures. But I don't think learning to throw spears better was necessarily enough. But this was something that was part of their diet. And it could have this effect over, you know, over evolutionary time. I mean, it makes perfect sense. It's one of these theories.

• 2:24:43Speaker 01

  It's a plausible theory. How do you prove?

• 2:24:45Danny Jones?

  Is there, I was gonna ask you, is there a way to disprove it?

• 2:24:49Speaker 01

  There's no way to disprove it that I can see. Maybe if we had one of those time machines that this guy is gonna invent for us, I would love that. I told you, I was totally obsessed with time travel. I'd go, I'd go back immediately to, you know, the Cerngatik plane a couple of years ago and see what the hell was going on.

• 2:25:12Danny Jones?

  Have you ever heard of the extra tempestial model?

• 2:25:16Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:25:17Danny Jones?

  There's a biological anthropologist named Michael Masters who came up with this, this theory. And he got into, he got into anthropology because he was obsessed with UFOs when he was a kid and the little gray aliens. And basically with that extra tempestial model is, is that every, what we know of in, as little, the little gray alien figures that we see with the small skinny spindly bodies and the big heads. Are not creatures from another planet or another solar system. They are future humans. And there's this phenomena in.

• 2:26:03Danny Jones?

  In evolution called pedomorphism. And essentially what pedomorphism is, is that if you, if you go back in time and you look at the offspring of primates, they, the offspring of primates look like their future descendants.

• 2:26:24Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:26:25Danny Jones?

  So like if you, if you pull up a picture of like a, like a, a young primate, it look, it's, it's kind of like, look like right there.

• 2:26:33Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 2:26:34Danny Jones?

  It's got a head more proportionate to the body of us today. And if you look at a fully grown, an adult primate, it's got that, that head with a forward protruding jaw, slanted forehead and a much bigger body.

• 2:26:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:26:47Danny Jones?

  So.

• 2:26:48Speaker 01

  Neotony, it's called also.

• 2:26:51Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:52Danny Jones?

  Exactly. So like, if you look at our children today, they look like what these little gray aliens kind of look, they look more like what these little gray aliens look like that we see in, in the movies, right? Or in, if you look at like John Max, you know, all the, the studies that he did on people with abduction experiences. So his idea is that those are humans that have evolved hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years into the future. And what they're doing is they're coming back in these time machines. These flying saucers are essentially time machines coming back to repopulate future hu- humanity in the future.

• 2:27:35Danny Jones?

  So if there was some sort of big cataclysmic event in the future, like a global thermonuclear war, or some sort of climate catastrophe, or a cosmic catastrophe that happened, and there was a bottleneck in humanity and civilization, they would want to come back to sort of extract DNA from their ancestors to repopulate themselves back into the future, which would explain John Max. Professor John Mack from Harvard, he was the guy, I'm sure you're familiar with him, psychiatrist, famous psychiatrist.

• 2:28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:06Danny Jones?

  When there was a vast majority of those cases involved the extraction of eggs and sperm from these people that were experiencing these alien abductions, whether that was happening in reality, or whether that was happening in their heads, we don't know. But he said that would explain, that's a hypothesis for that. And another way he uses to, to bolster this idea is that,

• 2:28:33Danny Jones?

  why would, like, like, all of these alien sightings, these UFO sightings around the world have ties to these communications of save the planet? Be aware of technology, technology can destroy you. So why would a future civilization, or why would a civilization from a completely separate galaxy care about preserving us? Like, what stakes would they have in our planet?

• 2:29:02Speaker 01

  Well, if we were their ancestors.

• 2:29:04Danny Jones?

  If we were their ancestors, they would care. They would, they would have a stake in this planet and they would want to protect humanity and protect the planet, right? Because it would have directly affected them in hundreds of thousands of years into the future.

• 2:29:17Danny Jones?

  So, and then that combined with the fact that we are so rare as bipedal hominids that have figured out technology to the point where we can escape the planet.

• 2:29:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:29:27Danny Jones?

  Like, out of all of the catalog species, I think there's over 2 million catalog species on, on, on, on earth. And out of that 2 million, 20 of them are hominids.

• 2:29:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:29:36Danny Jones?

  Out of the 20 hominids, there's one, one of them which figured out technology.

• 2:29:43Speaker 01

  And invented language and all of that.

• 2:29:47Danny Jones?

  So us, out of all the species on this earth that's bursting with life and biology, we're 0.0001% of the living creatures on this earth. So think about just how rare we are on this one planet that's in this Goldilocks zone that is, that is filled with life. And all of the other Goldilocks planets that we found are, they don't have the same gravity, they don't have the same atmosphere. It is almost, it is pretty much impossible that any sort of life would evolve to be upright bipedal hominids. You know, most of those, most of those worlds are water worlds. So they would look so much different.

• 2:30:26Speaker 01

  Likely. I mean, it's a good general body structure, you know, it's useful for things, you know, but there, you can imagine many other body structures that might work. Well, this is a fascinating idea because if, if my inference is correct, then, you know, so these are future aliens that are coming back to get DNA. The implication is that at some point there is a cataclysm that wipes us out, but they've already got the DNA. So then they could come back and repopulate the earth.

• 2:31:02Danny Jones?

  Yeah, they can go back and repopulate the future.

• 2:31:04Speaker 01

  I feel so much better already.

• 2:31:07Danny Jones?

  Right. And there's so many, there's so many accounts of, of these UFO sightings near nuclear sites.

• 2:31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:31:14Danny Jones?

  You know, disabling nuclear, nuclear launch sites and stuff like that and.

• 2:31:20Speaker 01

  After listening to this podcast that you did about time travel, the gentleman's name was.

• 2:31:25Danny Jones?

  Ronald Mallett.

• 2:31:27Speaker 01

  After I listened to that, I thought, this is actually the most plausible explanation. I can, I can almost buy this because he made it clear how, you know, what we understand of physics, it is actually possible if you have the command of these incredible sources of energy and all that.

• 2:31:51Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:31:52Speaker 01

  It is actually possible to travel into the past. This does not violate what we understand about, about time. I always assume that of course, future time travel is no problem, a given, you know, if you, the faster you go, you can, you know, time slows down and decades.

• 2:32:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah, there was a study done on the atomic clock.

• 2:32:14Speaker 01

  That's the tricky part. And he talked about a plausible way that this could happen. I, I need one of those machines.

• 2:32:22Danny Jones?

  Yes, yes, exactly.

• 2:32:25Danny Jones?

  Yeah, and there's the, there's the

• 2:32:26Speaker 01

  We were trying to build one, but you know, it kind of didn't work, so.

• 2:32:31Danny Jones?

  Right. And there's the, the time dilation, uh, which, which happens, which is the paradox of, uh, like if we wanted to send astronauts to travel to the edge of the galaxy, it would take 22 years in rocket time, which would be like a million years of Earth time, right?

• 2:32:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:32:47Danny Jones?

  So by the time they get halfway there in 10 years or whatever, there would have been 500,000 years on Earth, they could have sent somebody up in five minutes that would be passing them with their belly still full of breakfast.

• 2:32:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:32:58Danny Jones?

  You know what I mean? Like, well, we wasted our whole lives to do 10 years of our lives when, you know, Earth has evolved, you basically have to say goodbye to everyone you know on Earth because time would be passing so much faster on Earth.

• 2:33:09Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yeah, yeah. So these are mind boggling concepts. Yeah.

• 2:33:17Danny Jones?

  But, um,

• 2:33:18Speaker 01

  Let's take it down to Earth. Let's, let's, let's talk about plants. Let's talk about.

• 2:33:22Danny Jones?

  Back to drug. Have you, have you, I'm sure you've read, uh, The Road to Elucis with

• 2:33:26Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:33:27Danny Jones?

  Carl Ruck and Albert Hoffman and Gordon Wasson.

• 2:33:29Speaker 01

  Right. And Brian Mararescu's book that

• 2:33:33Danny Jones?

  The Immortality Key, that's the new one.

• 2:33:36Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:33:37Danny Jones?

  Based off that.

• 2:33:37Speaker 01

  Kind of comes, comes next, uh, not, yeah, I'm, I'm familiar with all that.

• 2:33:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah, and it's just, these cultures in, in ancient times and the Greeks and the Romans were just doing, there's another, uh, book called The Chemical Muse, which is really good, which was a, a book wrote all about, um, uh, Galen.

• 2:34:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, Galen.

• 2:34:01Danny Jones?

  Second century physician who was Marcus Aurelius's doctor.

• 2:34:05Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:34:06Danny Jones?

  And he was an amazing, like a, a huge mind of antiquity and philosophical mastermind and a, a, a medicine, you know, he was a, a savant, right? He, he, he created all these concoctions and medicines and drugs. And he even wrote about like, how much, uh, Marcus Aurelius, he had to give Marcus Aurelius so much opium. He was getting addicted to opium and he kept. When he was writing, he would always like be kind of complaining about how he kept having to up the dose. For Marcus Aurelius because he was so just addicted to opium.

• 2:34:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:34:43Danny Jones?

  And you know, basically that I that book, The Chemical Muse, just talks about how drugs were ubiquitous in antiquity. They were just everywhere. People were constantly doing drugs because you know, there was constant death and plague and famine everywhere. People were starving, people were dying of diseases and people were getting injured and you know, dying, getting injured in war and battle. So, so drugs were just a part of everyday life and they didn't, they didn't distinguish the difference between medicinal and recreational.

• 2:35:15Speaker 01

  Right, right. And really there isn't. I mean, many of these drugs were psychoactive. Very interesting that that you should mention Galen because Galen was one of the first more or less modern pharmacologists. In some ways, he was a he was a phytochemist and he was a pharmacologist and he was mucking around with all these formulations. Combinations of drugs and, and extractions and, and you know, preparations. This is very interesting that you bring this up because this, this actually segues very smoothly

• 2:35:56Speaker 01

  in, into the topic that I am gonna talk about at this Coca conference that we're, that we're organizing.

• 2:36:05Speaker 01

  I'd been thinking, you know, what am I gonna talk about? And I'm not an expert on Coca or cocaine or any of that other than you know, I'm, I'm certainly not like some of the people that have spent their whole lives talking about it. So I've been wondering, what am I gonna talk about?

• 2:36:24Speaker 01

  And what I'm going to talk about at the Coca conference is, and this is just still being formulated in my mind, I'm going to talk about how, I'm going to talk about the reemergence of spirit into medicine, right? Back in the day when Galen and Paracelsus and all these people, Paracelsus was another amazing figure, you know, very modern ideas about pharmacology and drugs. He was the one that articulated the idea that dose was important. He said, there's, you know, there is no drug that is not a poison. It's the dose that makes the difference.

• 2:37:09Speaker 01

  So, all these people were making extracts and doing different things and they were pulling, you know, extracts out and that sort of thing. In fact, early distillation technology of fermented fruits and that sort of thing. You could ferment fruits and get wine and beers, but then there were people trying to, you know, concentrate those using primitive distillation techniques. And they were, their understanding of these medicines, it was not about chemistry, it was that they were infused with a certain spiritual essence, in fact, an intelligence, in fact, spirits.

• 2:37:53Speaker 01

  And the word spirits, we talked about distilled spirits. That goes back to an age when they were actually trying to take the spirit out of the plant and concentrate it, you know? That's what, that's what the concept was, distilled spirits, right? So there was, you know, people have always mucked around with plants and tried different combinations and so on. And you can look at this at the, at the, you know, at the history of, the more recent history of ayahuasca, if you look at our, some of our ESPD talks, but...

• 2:38:30Danny Jones?

  And dose, it's interesting you bring up dose too, because you're, what you say about poisons, because they also took poisons like viper venoms.

• 2:38:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, they took all kinds of poisons. And these venoms are now being recognized as, you know, in tiny amount, they're therapeutic. So, there was a... So they were doing this and there was alchemy and there was all this herbalism and the plants were understood to be effectively intelligent entities that people were in partner with. They had spirit. They were the idea of a life force, you know. But then there was a important, I don't know if we call it a milestone, but at the beginning

• 2:39:22Speaker 01

  of the 19th century, there was a German pharmacist named Surtener who isolated morphine from the opium poppy for the first time, morphine in a pure form, isolated morphine. And morphine had most of the properties of opium. It was an analgesic, you could get addicted on it, it caused euphoria and so on. But it was clearly not alive, right? It was not a spirit, it was a crystal, you know. And so that led to, in some ways, that was

• 2:40:03Speaker 01

  the first step. It was an alkaloid, like so many of these medicines are. And because it's an alkaloid, it could be easily isolated in a pure form, you know, using techniques we think of as pretty primitive chemistry, but you could isolate it and crystallize it. And the first time that was done, it was done with morphine. And it had all the properties. So it was the beginning of this shift in understanding during the 19th century. In my lectures, I sometimes say the 19th century was the age of alkaloids. It was the

• 2:40:45Speaker 01

  first beginning of modern phytotherapy, pharmacotherapy, based on pure compounds. And a whole slew of alkaloids were isolated in the 19th century: morphine, scopolamine, hyocyanine, cocaine around the middle of the 19th century.

• 2:41:08Speaker 01

  Theobromine, caffeine, all of these alkaloids were isolated, culminating with the isolation of mescaline in a pure form. At the end of the 19th century, in 1903, or maybe it was 1899, I'm not sure, but Arthur Hefter, the chemist Arthur Hefter, for whom the Hefter Research Institute is named, isolated mescaline from peyote. So the concept that always before, therapy with plants was understood to be a symbiosis, a symbiotic alliance between these plants that were intelligent entities that had their own agency,

• 2:41:52Speaker 01

  obviously had active compounds, but were understood to be in some ways very much participating in this spiritual process of healing that we call medicine, or we call herbalism, you know? But the isolation of these pure compounds was the beginning of the ostracize, the concept of spirit became ostracized from medicine. And the idea, no, there's no life force, there's no vital force in these things. Uh, it's just chemistry, it's just pharmacology, you know? And so are we, we're biochemical, biochemical engines,

• 2:42:36Speaker 01

  just biochemical machines. And if you apply the right molecular monkey wrench, you know, in the form of a, in the form of a molecule, you can fix the problem, you know? You can fix the machine. So the idea that spirit was part of, uh, medicine, was part of healing, was suppressed as medicine evolved into what it is now, you know? Uh, and it very much de-emphasizes spirituality. It's very much about pharmacotherapy, we have chemicals, you have sicknesses.

• 2:43:13Speaker 01

  They affect these different processes, you know, and there's no invocation of any spiritual uh aspect to it. It's all seen as very mechanistic.

• 2:43:24Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:43:25Speaker 01

  But then, so it goes on and, you know, as we know, the American Medical Association and these other institutions went out of the way to suppress herbalism and herbalists and to dismiss the whole thing as quackery. You know, even though there's a vast a body of literature, scientific literature, that shows that herbal herbal preparations do have medicinal properties, you know, but but so-called mainstream medicine, pharmaceutical medicine, biomedicine, as I like to characterize it, they don't accept that, or they're they're skeptical, definitely.

• 2:44:05Speaker 01

  They don't accept it. For one thing, you can't patent natural products, you know, and it's not as easy. So it's in their interest to suppress this and to sort of, you know, and to say it's all quackery and all these alchemists and witches, you know, witches were often witches were midwives, basically, and they were people that understand understood women's health and the use of plants for women's health for inducing labor, for inducing abortion, which was a big one, for you know, inducing lactation, for doing all the things that, you know, are peculiar to women's physiology.

• 2:44:47Speaker 01

  That body of knowledge was the, uh, you know, was the province of the women. The women have this wisdom. It was women's wisdom. And, uh, so medicine got away from spirit. Medicine exorcised spirit.

• 2:45:01Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:45:02Speaker 01

  You know, and said, it's all just mechanical. And then, so that went on and it went on from the 19th century into the 20th century. And then along came psychedelics. And, I mean, they've always been there. They've always been used, but along came psychedelics as potential medicines and this sort of psychedelic renaissance and the reintroduction of psychedelics into medicine.

• 2:45:33Speaker 01

  Into medical therapies. The reasons medicine is so uncomfortable with psychedelics is that they are medicines for the spirit, effectively. They have to admit that a spirit exists if they're gonna use psychedelics. So this is why, you know, I mean, they're grudgingly beginning to use psychedelics in medicine, but a lot of people are uncomfortable with this for this very reason. In fact, there's a whole group of medicinal chemists and drug developers who are trying to take psychedelic molecules and engineer the trip out of the molecule, right?

• 2:46:16Speaker 01

  So they're trying to create non-psychedelic psychedelics, which by definition they can't be because psychedelic means mind manifesting, right? You have to admit that the mind exists, the mind and the spirit may be the same thing. So these non-psychedelic psychedelics, the thinking is, well, if you, if you just tweak these receptors and you, you know, tweak these changes that the psychedelic produces without ever having an experience, it'll be fine. You don't have to suffer all that terror, all that trauma, all that catharsis that you have to go through when you take a psychedelic therapy session.

• 2:46:57Speaker 01

  You'll never know anything happened, you'll just suddenly feel better, you know? This is bullshit, in my opinion. I think that you cannot dissociate the psychedelic experience from the therapeutic effect. I think these people trying to develop non-psychedelic psychedelics are seriously deluded and misguided. And so psychedelics have come back into medicine and it's changing the perception because in order to develop therapies that are appropriate to use psychedelics, they have to change their models, right? And, and, uh, uh, drug, uh, development, drug approval, it's all so far been based

• 2:47:42Speaker 01

  on the...

• 2:47:45Speaker 01

  Placebo-controlled, double-blind clinical trial. That's the structure, right? And you know how that works. The, the, so you have a placebo, you have an active drug. The ther- the, the doctor and the patients don't know who's getting what, you know, until the blind is removed and is there an effect, you know? Or is it, is it just placebo? Is there a real effect? And this is the approach they take to this thing. When it comes to psychedelics, you cannot really apply that method. You can't develop a placebo-controlled. How do you develop a placebo for something like psilocybin?

• 2:48:27Danny Jones?

  Hmm, right.

• 2:48:28Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, the, the joke, the cartoon that you may have seen is, you know, they're in a clinic and, you know, half the people are dancing around and rolling on the floor. And there's a couple sitting on the couch and he looks at the woman and he says, "I'm guessing we got the placebo."

• 2:48:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah, right, yes.

• 2:48:49Speaker 01

  And this is true.

• 2:48:50Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:50Speaker 01

  And, you know, and this is, this is, this is, uh, this is important because, um,

• 2:49:00Speaker 01

  because i- i- i- if they insist on developing these drugs using these outmoded methodologies based on placebo-controlled clinical trials, they can't do it. MDMA went down in flames for exactly this reason, right? The, the company that MAPS, uh, formed, Lykos, to bring MDMA to the market, you know, had a, uh, they're like $50 million involved in this. And they did clinical trials with MDMA for trauma. And it was, uh, very effective. But it was, there was an FDA review board.

• 2:49:46Speaker 01

  Most of the people on the board were not really clinicians. None of them had any, uh, experience themselves with any of these psychedelics and, and/or any really clinical trials. And they said, "Well, uh..." It wasn't a well-controlled study, you know, because you didn't have the right placebos. You didn't design it correctly. And so we don't accept these effect. We don't accept these results. And as a result, we don't approve MDMA, you know. And the psychiatry psychiatric community is saying, but wait a minute. This showed profound effectiveness for treating PTSD. You can't just dismiss this, you know.

• 2:50:28Speaker 01

  And the FDA is saying, well, actually, we can dismiss it, you know. And we hold the keys and you guys didn't meet uh, the criteria for design of the study that we insist on because it was the placebo-controlled study. And uh, and so nobody knows where that's going. I mean, they said basically design a better study or a different study. But, you know, they, I mean, it's, it's created a big problem. And I don't know where it's going to go in terms of the advancement of psychedelic therapies in biomedicine.

• 2:51:08Speaker 01

  Uh, but uh, uh, you know, uh, I mean, it may be that psychedelics will, will not go anywhere, you know, because of this, because of this insistence, because the whole pharmaceutical industrial complex is so rigid in, in the way that they, uh, that they, uh, you know, regard this. So we'll see. Anyway, uh, to bring it back to coca again. What I, what I wanted to, uh, the point I want to make when I deliver my talk is that coca is a good example of, you know, cocaine was isolated from coca.

• 2:51:51Speaker 01

  And, uh, and it's one of these pure compounds that has met many of the properties, but not all of the properties of coca. But that's been the fixation and it's caused so much damage, you know, on the geopolitically, socially, everything else. I mean, not only is it a toxic, harmful drug, but the political impact it's had has been tremendous. Oh, yeah. Tremendously negative, you know, the, the, the, the drug cartels.

• 2:52:27Speaker 01

  Who control the production and distribution of cocaine. Basically, these indigenous families or families of farmers that cultivate coca, they just go and they just say, well, you know, you're working for us now.

• 2:52:41Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:52:42Speaker 01

  You know, they don't want to work for them, but they just say, we're working, you're working for us. And if you don't work for us, we'll kill you.

• 2:52:48Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:52:49Speaker 01

  You know, and then they deal could kill a few of them to keep, to set an example. And then the whole cartel thing controls the production of cocaine.

• 2:52:59Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:53:00Speaker 01

  If cocaine were legalized, it would be worthless. You know, it would not be, cocaine is not an expensive compound. You could make it for pennies, you know, any, uh, you could extract it if it were not a controlled substance, it would not be a valuable compound. I mean, if you had, uh, you know, if caffeine were declared illegal tomorrow, you'd many see many of the same things go on.

• 2:53:27Danny Jones?

  Well, not only that, but it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be killing people because it would be, have to be regulated and made safely.

• 2:53:33Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:53:34Danny Jones?

  You wouldn't have all these people dying from cocaine laced with other things like fentanyl and, and it would be a much safer.

• 2:53:40Speaker 01

  It would be much safer and, and you could go to a pharmacy and you could buy it. If you wanted to use cocaine, you could just buy it.

• 2:53:47Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:53:48Speaker 01

  People could use it. It wouldn't have the glamour. It wouldn't be the romantic thing that it is, but it wouldn't have the glamour. And these people would just be, you know, sort of viewed as kind of, well, pathetic drug addicts, but okay, if they like it, let them buy it.

• 2:54:03Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:54:04Speaker 01

  Few bucks and let the rest of the world use coca. And coca is a wonderful plant. It has many benefits besides, most of the coca preparations that are used have very small amounts of cocaine. It's, it's a mild stimulant. It's about as toxic as green tea, you know? And it's used, it has very good nutritional properties. It's the main, uh, remedy for altitude sickness in the Andes, uh, no sorts of sicknesses.

• 2:54:41Speaker 01

  There's one group will be presenting at this Coca conference on trying to develop Coca extract as a treatment for ADHD for which is very effective. Yeah, and because the FDA does allow botanical drugs to be developed. There is a protocol for that. So they're trying to apply FDA botanical frameworks for developing a Coca extract, which doesn't contain cocaine for a or contains only traces of cocaine for ADHD.

• 2:55:23Speaker 01

  And many other things Coca is useful for, you know, and all sorts of products are being developed from, you know, non cocaine Coca derived products. And that's a lot of what this conference is about to talk about this. To neutralize the cartels, basically create alternative markets for Coca. So these farmers will have a place to sell their Coca. Companies can develop these products and if the prohibition of cocaine can be can be, you know, ended, then the cartels will not have a market and the whole their whole grip

• 2:56:08Speaker 01

  on this whole thing geopolitically will fall apart. And so that's what this is it. This conference is bringing together medicine, botanists who have studied Coca for many years, a whole bunch of regulatory people involved in drug policy in Europe, Peru, Colombia, Bolivia, which is where they're produced. Like I said, the vice president of Bolivia, who's been a strong public advocate for Coca, not cocaine, Coca for many years, is going to be there and other high profile people, people from the UN, World Health Organization and so on.

• 2:56:50Speaker 01

  So we have been able to attract a pretty high level bunch of folks, bunch of experts and and we're going to have this this this three day conference, have this active dialogue go on.

• 2:57:09Danny Jones?

  Well, the problem with this, not just the cartels, it's the United States military industrial complex propping up the cartels and quite literally using them to fund covert ops.

• 2:57:19Speaker 01

  Well, absolutely, right. All of that and the people that, you know, fundamentally at base, it's the people who consume cocaine, you know, and if you, if you like cocaine, that's fine, you know, I mean, sure, it's a pleasurable drug, but you should be able to go to the pharmacy and buy it.

• 2:57:46Danny Jones?

  Well, they can, they use it for like brain surgery, right? Like neurosurgeons use cocaine?

• 2:57:50Speaker 01

  They do. They use it for, as an anesthetic for certain kinds of surgery, like nasal surgery and, and that sort of thing. But, uh, the thing is because it's under the control of the cartels, ethically, there's real problems with using cocaine. It's similar to blood diamonds, you know, I mean, it's essentially the same thing. Blood diamonds are available to the world. How many children get enslaved? The environmental impact is tremendous. It's very much the same. You know, the, the, the world cocaine markets

• 2:58:28Speaker 01

  are based on slavery, you know, murder, environmental destruction. I mean, the processing of cocaine destroys-

• 2:58:36Danny Jones?

  The processing of iPhones.

• 2:58:38Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 2:58:39Danny Jones?

  Just like the processing of iPhones.

• 2:58:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, exactly.

• 2:58:42Danny Jones?

  How they, how they get the materials for iPhones.

• 2:58:44Speaker 01

  Right, right. Quite so. Uh, make a good point, but I'm not crusading for iPhones.

• 2:58:51Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:58:53Speaker 01

  So, the idea is if we can, if we can have this conference and shift the conversation and point out the ethical conundrum of consuming cocaine, you know, uh, and the problems that create, cause that just ripples through, you know, governments, governments are corrupt, institutions are corrupt, people are corrupt and the, and basically the poor farmers who are at the base of all this are, and exploited, they don't have a lot of choice, you know? So the idea with this conference is we want to, uh, have this conversation and see if we can begin to move the regulatory-

• 2:59:38Speaker 01

  Frameworks toward more, more rational, uh, toward the liberation of non cocaine coca products as well as the change in the, in the, in the regulation of cocaine toward something that can be available, uh, but is not, uh, I mean, it's, it's the fact that it's illegal is what gives cocaine value, you know, that's why it's worth millions of dollars. It's not that it's expensive compound to make. It's just because it's illegal.

• 3:00:14Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Now, is it illegal for me to have a coca plant in my possession?

• 3:00:21Speaker 01

  Technically, yes. That's the first thing that needs to change. In the drug regulatory uh, laws, very few plants are prohibited as plants. Coca happens to be one of those that are. Cannabis is another. Peyote is another. And that's because the laws were formulated in a, number one, in a way that was the people formulating the laws. This all happened when the UN Convention on Narcotic Drugs wa- was formed at the beginning of, of, at the end

• 3:00:59Speaker 01

  of the sixties. And certain plants were designated at ill- to be illegal as plants. And then the rest of it was mostly as chemicals. So the first thing that needs to happen is globally, the prohibition of coca, uh, as a plant needs to end. I mean, anyone should be able to grow coca, li- like cannabis is now, you know, cannabis is pretty much, you know, i- i- i- even though cannabis is still prohibited someplace, but it's increasingly become legal.

• 3:01:32Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:01:33Speaker 01

  Lots of people here in Florida are growing coca. People in Hawaii are growing coca. It's-

• 3:01:38Danny Jones?

  People in Florida are growing coca?

• 3:01:40Speaker 01

  Hmm?

• 3:01:40Danny Jones?

  People in Florida are growing coca?

• 3:01:42Speaker 01

  Growing coca?

• 3:01:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:43Speaker 01

  Well, hell yes, of course. It's easy to grow.

• 3:01:47Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, i- it's, it also like, I- I've seen the documentaries. I, I s- it's, it's a quite the laborious process to manufacture cocaine. Like you see them taking all the leaves and then like crushing them up, mixing them with gas- And all these other things in these big vats.

• 3:02:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:02:06Danny Jones?

  I mean, like, that's far from the actual leaf. And like, if you wanted to take the coca leaf, like, what would be the process of doing it? Do you, is it similar to, like, cot?

• 3:02:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's similar to cot. It's used very much that way. It's chewed or, you know, and then there's this, this material called Bombay, which is a powdered form of it.

• 3:02:30Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 3:02:31Speaker 01

  And people take that and, you know, you basically make it quid or you put it between your gum and your cheek and then you just suck on it.

• 3:02:39Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:02:39Speaker 01

  And you get this effect and they make teas out of it. They make food out of it. They make all kinds of things and they're gonna be talking about all this. You should put the webpage up there so people can look at it.

• 3:02:53Danny Jones?

  And where is the conference gonna happen?

• 3:02:55Speaker 01

  It's gonna happen in the Sacred Valley.

• 3:02:59Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 3:02:59Speaker 01

  Of Peru, uh, at this tourist, uh, retreat center that I've often gone to. It's a lovely place. And the Sacred Valley is kind of the center of the Andean, uh, coca traditions. Coca is at the center of the Andean, both medicine and, uh, cosmo vision, if you will. I mean, it's, to them, it's a sacred plant. And, uh, and so it, it's appropriate to do it there. Uh, and people can look at this website and look at the bios and what people will, will be presenting.

• 3:03:39Danny Jones?

  Yeah, we'll put the link in the description for people who wanna read more about it.

• 3:03:43Speaker 01

  It's a, uh, it's a, uh, it's to be, I mean, it's not that we're the only policy discussion going on, on this. Other people are beginning to wake up. Uh, there've been, uh, meetings at the World Health Organization. And the UN recently, Wade Davis is one of our, one of the chief organizers in this conference. And because of who he is, he's very recognized in, uh, as a public advocate for more sane, you know, regulation of coca. So he's been at a couple of meetings at the UN and World Health Organization. And these global organizations are beginning to wake up to the fact that, well, what we've got now is not working.

• 3:04:28Speaker 01

  You know, the, the global prohibition of coca is creating more problems than anything else because of the cartels. So, you know, and, and the more effort goes into prohibiting coca and controlling the supply. This all benefits the cartels. The last people that want to see coca legalized are the cartels.

• 3:04:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:04:53Speaker 01

  Cause their business goes down the tubes if that's done and they're done. So, uh, where, and why am I doing this? Well, I am doing it because I'm an ethnobotanist and I'm interested basically in, uh, useful plants. You know, that's what it comes down to.

• 3:05:15Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:05:16Speaker 01

  And coca, coca is a plant that has been demonized and stigmatized because it's the source of cocaine for so long. So people say, well, it is this evil plant. No, again, it comes back to, uh, you know, human behavior. The people that are extracting cocaine and, uh, and marketing it and putting people into slavery and all that, uh, to get cocaine, they're the evil ones. Cocaine is simply a plant. You know, and it's a very. Good plant, it's a beneficial plant. So, I'm not an expert on cocaine. I'm not, uh,

• 3:05:57Speaker 01

  my expertise in ethnobotany is basically ayahuasca. That's what I've done most of my work on. But I'm interested generally in preserving biodiversity, preserving indigenous knowledge about plants, and preserving the plants. And so I, and I'm a good friend of Wade's, and so when we, together, we came up with this idea about doing this forum, this symposium, and I'm, I'm all in. Because if we get a global notice for this, then

• 3:06:38Speaker 01

  people who are in positions, influential positions, can change, can make change. And that's why we're, you know, again, people can, if they want to support this, they can donate to the academy. We can, they can attend if they're interested. We have about ten slots available for guests. Because of the technical limitations, we won't be able to livestream this from there. But all the talks will be recorded, and we'll, we'll upload them every night. After each, after each session, we'll upload them to the website. And they'll just

• 3:07:19Speaker 01

  be available for people to, to look at when they want to. So, that's, that's our latest obsession, I guess you could say.

• 3:07:32Danny Jones?

  That's amazing, yeah.

• 3:07:33Speaker 01

  Is the coca.

• 3:07:34Danny Jones?

  No, that's interesting. I saw that also, you, you emailed me a, a paper recently that was in PubMed. It was a scientific paper that just recent, was it recent, about coca?

• 3:07:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:07:45Danny Jones?

  And what was the, what was the study that was going on there? Steve, I sent, I emailed that to you earlier, you'll have that.

• 3:07:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I emailed it, and that's, it's good that you raised it. I, I emailed it, it was a small study, because, uh...

• 3:08:01Speaker 01

  Uh, there's this big problem, obviously, with cocaine addiction, right? And a lot of people are addicted to cocaine and it's very hard to... But turns out, the best remedy for cocaine addiction is coca.

• 3:08:17Danny Jones?

  Huh.

• 3:08:18Speaker 01

  And it makes sense, right? It's sort of like methadone is to heroin, you know? I mean, it's a different compound, but a, uh, a simple extract of coca, people can take, chew it, or take it as, as mambé or even a tea. This is mostly going on in South America because, uh, of course, uh, a lot of cocaine addiction associated with producing coca. A lot of people are addicted to, uh, what's called pasta, which is the semi-pure form of coca. Effectively, it's crack cocaine. It's a smokable form.

• 3:08:57Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 3:08:58Speaker 01

  Halfway through the purification process. So they have a huge problem with cocaine addiction in Bolivia, Peru, and, and these producing countries. And there are some doctors there that are conducting, uh, research and it turns out that coca, unrefined coca, is a good remedy for cocaine addiction.

• 3:09:19Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow. That's amazing.

• 3:09:21Speaker 01

  Similar to the way that, you know, nicotine patches and nicotine chewing gum can help people get off cigarettes. Same thing, exactly.

• 3:09:30Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 3:09:31Speaker 01

  Same idea.

• 3:09:32Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

• 3:09:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:09:34Danny Jones?

  Um, okay. Perfect. Yeah, yeah. I'll link this below so people could... That, that conference is happening in just a few weeks in the beginning of February.

• 3:09:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, the conference will be, uh, February 3 to, uh, 7th. And, uh, and then following that, uh, actually in Cusco, we're gonna have a, a mini, we're, we're gonna have, uh, an event at the end of the conference. People are gonna go to Cusco and we're gonna... This mainly for the conference attendees, we're gonna show an amazing film about coca that this anthropologist made in Cusco. And we may get another speaker to talk about Cusco. We're trying to give something back to the community because we've organized this conference.

• 3:10:25Speaker 01

  It's too expensive for most of the people who live in the Sacred Valley to come. So we're trying to open it up in a way to the community. On the eighth of February, after the conference, we're going to do a mini film festival at this place called Zapiri, which is a shop in Cusco run by a British fellow that I know well. I've done events with him. It's called Zapiri Ground, and we're going to show this coca movie, which is called Cucusari.

• 3:11:06Speaker 01

  I'm not sure I'm saying it about the Carol people, about how they use coca. We're going to show the McEnness Academy movie Bionosis. The subtitle is Bridges to Ancestral Wisdom. We're going to show another couple of films. So it'll be like a short, an afternoon film festival. We're going to show the person that is filming the conference for us and doing a lot of the background work is a gentleman named Louis Solerat, who is really a gifted filmmaker.

• 3:11:49Speaker 01

  He used to be Brian Rose's producer. But he's been living in Peru ever since the pandemic, and he's made a couple of amazing films, one of which is called Psychedelic Pandemic, about his experience being in Peru when the pandemic came. He went to Iquitos to take ayahuasca. And he went to this retreat center, and he figured he was gonna be there a couple of weeks and then go back home. And then the COVID pandemic came down and the country was locked down. So his stay there

• 3:12:31Speaker 01

  extended from two weeks to five years. He's still there.

• 3:12:35Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 3:12:37Speaker 01

  And he's loving it.

• 3:12:37Danny Jones?

  I'm not leaving.

• 3:12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's, he's, he's still making amazing films. So we're gonna, we're gonna show psychedelic pandemic and he's made this other really interesting film called Ariana's Garden, uh, which is about this young girl. Um, and it, it's basically a fiction. It's a short film, but it's about this young girl who has a, uh, personal relationship with the plants, you know, and she talks to the plants, right? And, uh, her grandmother or somebody like that in the family is ill. And, uh, you know, they want to take the grandmother to Lima for treatment

• 3:13:18Speaker 01

  and they're poor and they can't do it, you know? And so Ariana, you know, goes into the garden and finds the plants to cure the mother. And, uh, it's, it's a very touching film. So we're gonna show that and, uh.

• 3:13:41Danny Jones?

  That's amazing.

• 3:13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13:42Danny Jones?

  Um, sorry, was there something else you wanted to say?

• 3:13:45Speaker 01

  Well, I was gonna say, so that segues into, uh, the Bionosis, could we talk about that a little bit? Okay, so under programs, this is a story as well.

• 3:14:00Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 3:14:00Speaker 01

  I have lots of stories. Uh.

• 3:14:06Speaker 01

  Are we doing okay?

• 3:14:07Danny Jones?

  Herbarium.

• 3:14:08Speaker 01

  In terms of, yeah, this is about the herbarium.

• 3:14:10Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay, yes.

• 3:14:12Speaker 01

  Are, are we going over time limits?

• 3:14:14Danny Jones?

  No, we don't have a time limit.

• 3:14:16Speaker 01

  I've totally lost track of time.

• 3:14:17Danny Jones?

  We're, we're like three hours in right now. So we got, we, we can go as long as we want.

• 3:14:21Speaker 01

  You don't care. You could go all day.

• 3:14:23Danny Jones?

  I could go all day.

• 3:14:24Speaker 01

  Would people listen all day?

• 3:14:26Danny Jones?

  Of course they would.

• 3:14:27Speaker 01

  But, yeah, so Bionosis is a project that we've been working on for, uh, depending on when you start counting. Uh, uh, I, uh.

• 3:14:40Speaker 01

  So I worked in my career, I worked very closely with this gentleman in Iquitos named Juan Ruiz, who was the curator of the herbarium at the university there. And I've known him for 50 years. We worked together. I came as a graduate student in 1981. He was a student there at the time, and he was, at the time, he was designated to be my, my guide, basically, by the guy who directed the herbarium at the time. And I'm sure conversation was basically, this gringo's here, he's an idiot,

• 3:15:21Speaker 01

  you know, he's a tenderfoot, just take him to the field and get some plants, make sure he gets back alive, you know. And he did, and we collected some plants and we formed a friendship. And we've collaborated on various projects over the years. Juan is an amazing person. He is a scientist, he's a trained botanist, but he's also a medicine man. He understands the use of these plants, and he's been, he grew up in Iquitos. So he knows the communities and the communities around there on the rivers and so on. None of it's written down.

• 3:16:01Speaker 01

  And it's all in his head. So partly this plan, if you can scroll up, there's a description of it.

• 3:16:11Speaker 01

  We have various aspects, various elements of this. What we want to do is make documentaries about this herbarium, which we have made. This Biodosis film, it's about a 30-minute film, is basically about the herbarium and what is being lost, the importance of the herbarium.

• 3:16:35Danny Jones?

  What does that word mean, herbarium?

• 3:16:36Speaker 01

  Hmm?

• 3:16:37Danny Jones?

  What does the word mean, herbarium?

• 3:16:39Speaker 01

  The herb?

• 3:16:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah, the word, herbarium.

• 3:16:43Speaker 01

  Herbarium is like a library of dried plant specimens.

• 3:16:47Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 3:16:47Speaker 01

  That's what it is, basically. The podcast I sent you from, uh, uh, you know, what's the podcast? In Defense of Plants, that fellow is the director of the herbarium at the Missouri Botanical Garden.

• 3:17:03Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 3:17:03Speaker 01

  And the reason it blew my mind when I stumbled on that is the Missouri Botanical Garden has a very close relationship to this herbarium in Iquitos. One of their chief botanists at the time, Al Gentry, collected out of the UNAP herbarium at the University Nacional Amazonia Patuana in Iquitos. He collected out of there. So when I was looking for something else and saw this podcast, I thought, this is an amazing connection. I'm going to get in touch with him, see if we can initiate a collaboration, because what we want to do is save this herbarium.

• 3:17:43Speaker 01

  And we want to start by digitizing the specimens there. And the Missouri Botanical Garden, the specimens, there's like 3 million specimens there. And at the UNAP herbarium, there's only 150,000, so a tiny amount. And only 50,000 of them are actually documented and mounted with labeled and entered into the library. The rest of them haven't been mounted yet. So what we want to do is find the resources to mount the rest of the specimens and then

• 3:18:21Speaker 01

  digitize these specimens and put all that online and develop a, uh, an interactive interface for examining the specimens, you know? So, so this is what herbaria do these days. All of the... Major herbaria in the world are digitizing their collections because then people could look at the specimens, no matter where they are in the world. One of our advisors on this project was a woman named Barbara Thiers, Dr. Barbara Thiers from the New York Botanical Garden.

• 3:19:02Speaker 01

  She created a virtual herbarium at the New York Botanical Garden with four and a half million specimens in it.

• 3:19:11Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 3:19:12Speaker 01

  You know, so she knows what she's doing. Yeah, this shows, this is a trailer for the film, and I'll send you a link where you can look at the full film.

• 3:19:22Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 3:19:23Speaker 01

  That's only 30 minutes, but scroll up or down to show those pictures.

• 3:19:28Danny Jones?

  It was back down, yeah.

• 3:19:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so this shows, this is water reese, and one of the document, we want to make a series of documentaries, but the main one is, we want to try to document what this guy knows, which is a tremendous amount, you know. He knows all the, I think he has a personal relationship with all the plants in the Amazon. I mean, he knows all these species, he could identify them at sight, and I've collected with him in the field many times, and he can take, you know, a leaf or a fragment of

• 3:20:10Speaker 01

  a plant often, and I often have given him, you know, these things, and he'll give you the scientific name, the common name, what it's used for, usually some funny story about some botanist that came through 30 years ago and collected the plant.

• 3:20:28Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 3:20:29Speaker 01

  So he's just a wise man of the forest in some ways, and the herbarium is closing. There's no money to keep it going, so what we're trying to do is find enough money to keep it going and document what Juan knows, you know, before he dies, because he's not young. I mean, he's like me, he's a couple of years younger than I am.

• 3:20:54Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 3:20:55Speaker 01

  Which is unfortunately not young.

• 3:20:58Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:20:59Speaker 01

  But, so through this, we want, and we want to create a...

• 3:21:06Speaker 01

  Interactive interface to these collections so that rather than going to the website and just looking at a bunch of specimens, which is fine, if you're a botist, that's what you want. You want to just be able to get to them. But we want to make a AR, AI and VR driven interface for these things. We want to create a virtual reality interface so that instead of just looking at a bunch of specimens, you're actually looking at a virtual representation of the rainforest.

• 3:21:39Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 3:21:40Speaker 01

  And you can fly through the rainforest and in this VR, there will be little nodes and every node is keyed to an herbarium specimen, right? So you click on the node and you can bring up the specimen. And that will tell you what it is and where it is and who collected it and so on. But then that can also link to all sorts of other databases that are out there.

• 3:22:06Danny Jones?

  That's incredible.

• 3:22:07Speaker 01

  Genomic databases, phytochemical, ethno-botanical databases and so on. So this is a big project. This is, and right now Juan is retired. He's been forced to retire because the herbarium cannot, they just can't keep paying him, you know, even though he makes very little money. But, you know, as a faculty member there, he makes, you know, I don't know, probably less than a thousand dollars a month, you know? So it's very, but they can't afford it. They've closed the herbarium. So this, this, uh,

• 3:22:51Speaker 01

  this spring, after we get done with this Coka conference, we're planning to

• 3:22:57Speaker 01

  take some of these films and go on the road and do film festivals in different places. We have, the person that made the, uh, the Bionosis film has a studio in New Brunswick. Hemmings House is the name of the company. So we're going to start there. He's got a venue identified where we can do it. And then we're going to Halifax and then probably New York and we have a chance to present at Princeton as well.

• 3:23:25Speaker 01

  So we're trying to raise money to do the herbarium and a big part of it is that is we're trying to raise money so that we can pay Juan a stipend so that he can, you know, continue to live in dignity. And I mean, right now, he's in really tough shape, you know, and he shouldn't have to be. You know, so we're trying to do that. And when it comes to donors, if people want to support this Bionosis project, then sign on and, you know, people can support anything that the McKenna Academy is doing. I mean, we need support

• 3:24:10Speaker 01

  for the Coca project. We need support for Bionosis. And these are basically our two big things. Bionosis is the most long-term one. And anyone, you can go on the, on the website, we got donate buttons all over the place.

• 3:24:28Danny Jones?

  Beautiful.

• 3:24:29Speaker 01

  You know?

• 3:24:30Danny Jones?

  All you, all you listeners out there with money, mckennaacademy.com, Bionosis and Coca Conference. We need, we need to get that. That's the kind of stuff that needs funding. That's the stuff that...

• 3:24:42Speaker 01

  But I must correct her. I must correct you.

• 3:24:44Danny Jones?

  Oh, yes.

• 3:24:45Speaker 01

  McKenna dot academy.

• 3:24:47Danny Jones?

  McKenna dot academy.

• 3:24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's no dot com. Academy is the suffix.

• 3:24:52Danny Jones?

  Oh, it's just McKenna dot. Oh, that's even better.

• 3:24:54Speaker 01

  Dot academy.

• 3:24:55Danny Jones?

  That's even easier. Yes.

• 3:24:57Speaker 01

  And like all nonprofits, we got donate buttons and we can also give people tax deductions. We're a 501(c)(3) nonprofit. We can give people tax deductions. If you're not in the States, it's a little more complicated, but you can still get a deduction.

• 3:25:15Danny Jones?

  Right there.

• 3:25:16Speaker 01

  Right there.

• 3:25:17Danny Jones?

  Yeah, once, monthly, yearly.

• 3:25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:25:19Danny Jones?

  That's beautiful.

• 3:25:20Speaker 01

  And one other key email here. Yeah, you can, you can join our newsletter also to connect. We do put out a newsletter. And I'm doing a podcast, actually. I am an amateur at this.

• 3:25:40Speaker 01

  Compared to you, I mean, you're the master. You're amazing.

• 3:25:43Danny Jones?

  You've been going on podcasts since like the, the early 2000s.

• 3:25:47Speaker 01

  I have enjoyed podcasts. Finally, I decided I'll do my own damn podcast. And this is Louis Solarat. This is the, the guy, the filmmaker I was telling you about. So, uh, yeah, the Brayden Forest Cafe. And, uh, we try to do these podcasts, uh, every, we release one every other Monday. Uh, you know, we don't have the resources to do them. I mean, it takes tremendous amount of focus and, and work to do these. You know, you do these three or four times a week, right?

• 3:26:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah, two or three times a week. Well, this is the first one we've done in two weeks because of the holiday break.

• 3:26:26Speaker 01

  Because of the holiday.

• 3:26:27Danny Jones?

  But yeah, I mean, we had to get, we had to get you halfway across the globe. You came all the way from, from the top left corner of the continent.

• 3:26:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:26:36Danny Jones?

  We're on the opposite end.

• 3:26:37Speaker 01

  I haven't done that. We can't afford to bring people in in purpose, uh, in, in person. And besides, nobody wants to go to my messy office. But, uh, we got a lot of people here and some really good stuff, you know?

• 3:26:52Danny Jones?

  That's amazing. Wow. You guys already have a pretty good library of podcasts on here.

• 3:26:57Speaker 04

  You can search by topics. That's really cool.

• 3:26:58Speaker 01

  Look at that. We need this.

• 3:27:01Speaker 04

  That's great.

• 3:27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:27:04Danny Jones?

  Um, one more thing. I wanted to kind of like take a, a detour before we wrap this up.

• 3:27:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:27:10Danny Jones?

  There was one more thing I, I really wanted to talk to you about that we didn't get a chance to talk about.

• 3:27:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:27:14Danny Jones?

  Which was the, the studies that are going on with the extended state DMT.

• 3:27:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:27:19Danny Jones?

  Uh, I think it's called DMTX where they're putting people on intravenous DMT.

• 3:27:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:27:24Danny Jones?

  And basically trying to map this DMT realm or this psychedelic realm.

• 3:27:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:27:30Danny Jones?

  Well, what, what is your understanding of this and, and what, where, where is this right now and where's it going?

• 3:27:38Speaker 01

  Well, I, I know most of the people involved in this. Uh, there's a couple of different places it's going on. Uh, there, there's one group in Boulder that's doing some work on this, uh, but distal mindfulness is what they're called. A guy named, uh, Dan McQueen. And then there's a UK, there's a group in the UK, they're the ones that seem to be most involved with it. Chris Timmerman and some other folks.

• 3:28:09Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:28:10Speaker 01

  Well, it's a

• 3:28:14Speaker 01

  it's a way to get around this problem that DMT is too short.

• 3:28:18Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:28:19Speaker 01

  You know, that's it. Extended state. The idea is you can extend the state and

• 3:28:24Danny Jones?

  But instead of using the MAOI.

• 3:28:27Speaker 01

  Instead of using the MAOI, it's just

• 3:28:29Danny Jones?

  You just do a slow drip.

• 3:28:31Speaker 01

  Intervene a slow drip and you can spend time in the DMT state. I was originally a skeptic about this. I was concerned.

• 3:28:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah, why were you a skeptic?

• 3:28:46Speaker 01

  Well, I was concerned that you know, prolonged exposure to DMT, putting yourself in this, in this, you know, very strange place for I mean, one of the best things about DMT, it's very short. I mean, in 20 minutes, it's over. You can always look forward to that.

• 3:29:06Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:29:07Speaker 01

  Just tell you, it's gonna be over.

• 3:29:09Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 3:29:09Speaker 01

  You can extend it for 40 minutes, an hour, whatever. I haven't done that. And I, for various health reasons, I probably won't do it. But I was skeptical that it might be dangerous, but I guess not. I mean, people are doing this. It seems to be okay. DMT is very non-toxic. And the reason it's so short is that it's so quickly metabolized. So you take it, and as soon as you take it, it starts disappearing, you know, from, from your system. So this is a way to keep the titers up. One approach.

• 3:29:52Speaker 01

  Well, there's a couple of, there's a couple of approaches that, one, one approach that, that could work without going the intervenous route that I have tried that worked pretty good is to do vaping, do a vaporizer, uh, not like these cartridges, but use like a, uh, uh, volcano vaporizer or something like that, you know, you know, volcano vaporizer. Right, yeah. Yeah, so if you can do that, if you can vaporize it, then you have this bag full of the smoke, right, so you can control it. The problem is you're so completely out of

• 3:30:34Speaker 01

  it, you don't want to have to fiddle with lighting matches and smoking pipes and this just, and what I found when I did it was, it was very, it was great, actually. There was not this, uh, it didn't come down on you like a freight train when you've smoked it. That's been my experience. A very easy lift up into the place, very calm, tranquil, and then you could stay there. And if you wanted to go up higher, you'd just take another toke, you know, and you'd, on the, uh, breath out of this bag and the sand flowed up there

• 3:31:15Speaker 01

  for a while and then it would start to come down. It was literally like being in a balloon. That's the closest analogy I could give to it. Start to drift down, you, and you'd say, well, no, this feels pretty good. I think I'll go back up for a while. And you could just float along for a long time. And, uh, I don't, I haven't done the intervenous one, but it seems to me that this accomplishes the same thing. And, uh, and it was really quite nice. I had, uh, one of the best DMT encounters I've ever had with that. Really? Yeah, yeah. I did because it was so...

• 3:31:56Speaker 01

  It was so non-threatening. It was so comfortable. I mean, often DMT, at least for me, taking it in the old way, I mean, it's, it's a trip, you know, you gotta get your courage screwed up and say, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna plunge into the abyss, you know, and, and hopefully the parachute will open, you know, and

• 3:32:20Danny Jones?

  Plug your nose and jump.

• 3:32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a lot of anxiety, but this was like, there's no anxiety. It's like, this feels good. I could stay here for a while. I had a wonderful

• 3:32:32Speaker 01

  experience, you know, encounter with my ancestors and very much not so much about all the lights and bells and whistles than a typical DMT experience is. It was much more tranquil and mellow and actually just, just deep, you know, and I could just feel the love and no fear, no fear. That was, that was amazing.

• 3:33:00Danny Jones?

  The question is, what's going on? Where is it? Where are we going? Like?

• 3:33:05Speaker 01

  In this place?

• 3:33:06Danny Jones?

  In this place. Like, how do we, how do we, what do we use to figure out what's going on and where we are? And how real is it compared to where we're sitting right now? And, and what does that mean? Is it, is it some sort of simulation? Does that prove, is it, is it sort of breaking down the walls to our, our brain that's filtering this reality that we're in right now? Is it, is it, is it getting rid of all the filters? And is it sort of like opening up and showing us more? Is like, is all that stuff that you see on DMT, is that normally all around us everywhere right now? And when you're on DMT, the DMT is essentially filtering all that out.

• 3:33:52Speaker 01

  It dissolves the filters?

• 3:33:53Danny Jones?

  Dissolving the filters, yeah.

• 3:33:55Speaker 01

  It's something like that. I mean, this, this thing, you know, you get into some pretty interesting epistemological, you know, areas here. Like you say, is it real? Right? I start with the premise that anything you experience is real, you know? Yeah, it's real. You experience it. You know, an alien appears there on, uh, you know, in the chair and, oh, okay. Hello. Well, it may not actually be a physical presence, but you're experiencing it. So it's real.

• 3:34:32Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:34:32Speaker 01

  Anything you experience is real, you know? So all this talk about all these paranormal phenomena, UFOs and whatever. They're real. People experience them that. But then that's just the first step. Then, okay, is it within or is it without?

• 3:34:52Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 3:34:53Speaker 01

  And what does that mean? Is there really a within or a without? You know, are these things? Because again, we had, we talked before about the reality hallucination. You know, we're in that, we are in a simulation. That's what the brain does. It simulates reality. You know, sir, everybody's in a reality simulation. Their own personal, uh, you know, their own personal simulation, their own personal reality hallucination, which fortunately happens to overlap with other people. So it's pretty congruent with other people. So it makes sense. Otherwise, we'd all be isolated, you know?

• 3:35:34Speaker 01

  And I mean, presumably there's something out there that we all share. But we're seeing this, uh, everything we experience is a reflection of our neurochemical brain states, basically. And you can tweak it various ways, you know, with drugs or whatever, with feedback, with meditation, with, uh, you know, shamanic practices, with sound even. You can alter states. But everything filters through that neurochemical process.

• 3:36:12Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:36:12Speaker 01

  You know?

• 3:36:13Danny Jones?

  Right. And it's just, it's interesting that so many people have such similar experiences on the DM, on DMT and, and even like seeing ancient symbols, ancient structures.

• 3:36:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:36:27Danny Jones?

  It's almost like it's transcending space and time and, and showing you a, an infinite loop of history and, and the world and every organism that's ever existed on this planet. And even like, like language and codes and text. And there's that, um, the video that you, I showed you or that you saw the podcast I did with that guy.

• 3:36:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:36:49Danny Jones?

  Danny, who did the experiment with the laser where they shine a laser on the, on the wall. And all these people are experiencing the same thing or seeing the same thing in the laser, where there's this code that, that comes through.

• 3:37:02Speaker 01

  Right. And I, I admit, I am, I'm puzzled by that. I am not sure quite what to say about that. I, I think it's very interesting that people do see the same thing. I think it is a leap to, uh, go from that to say, well, this proves that we're living in a simulation.

• 3:37:26Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 3:37:26Speaker 01

  I think.

• 3:37:27Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 3:37:28Speaker 01

  That's, that's quite a leap, you know?

• 3:37:31Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 3:37:31Speaker 01

  Uh, but then, you know, you know, in science, uh, and again, science is,

• 3:37:40Speaker 01

  you know, it, it, it doesn't have all the answers, but the scientific stance or the sort of scientific attitude is the application of Occam's razor is a good thing, you know? Occam's razor basically said, what is the?

• 3:37:55Danny Jones?

  The easiest explanation.

• 3:37:57Speaker 01

  The, what explains the data? What is the most likely explanation that explains the data? You know, so it's a leap to go from these people's experience and say, oh, that proves the world that, you know, it's the world's a simulation, which means we have to dump into the dumpster, everything we thought we knew about the world.

• 3:38:14Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:38:15Speaker 01

  People are reluctant to do that. I'm not sure exactly. I think it may have to do with what we were talking about before, about this, the collective unconscious and the, the fact that we're all connected.

• 3:38:30Speaker 01

  By this bedrock of the collective unconscious, I think the, you know, the Jungian notion of these archetypes in some realm, and we're just islands sticking up out of this ocean, but at the bedrock, we're all connected. Yeah. That may be where these things reside, and that's where, it's not unlike the Platonic ideas about the Plato's notion of the, I mean, I think his idea for that was, was the, you know, the, the ideas, you know, the shadows in the cave, that whole thing, that what we're seeing is shadows in the cave.

• 3:39:14Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I like the Jungian notion, makes sense, it makes sense. So maybe there is some place where the universal determinants of language, cognition, understanding, all of these things are shared commonly, not through cultural filters, you know? What we see is always comes through a cultural filter. Maybe there's something behind that that's more fundamental. Yes. And DMT lets you look into that space temporarily. Into that ancient brain. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense.

• 3:39:59Speaker 01

  It's just a speculation. Again, the question is, how do you prove that? How do you prove that's where it's coming from? You know, one, one thing I've, I've always been a little sort of uncomfortable with, or, or, you know, just, I, I belong to a, a chat group called Sentient Others, and we've had several conferences, and, and that's a group in, in the UK mainly, and we've, we've talked about, it's basically about these entities that you encounter in these altered states, particularly DMT.

• 3:40:41Speaker 01

  You know, these alien-like entities that appear to be separate, that wanna communicate with you, that... And one thing that bothers me a little bit about those, those things you see is...

• 3:41:00Speaker 01

  They look like humans, you know, I mean, they look basically like humans. They don't, there's a, there's a, there's a book that's been published recently. It's called something like a field guide to uh, uh, alien entities or something like that. I'll, I'll send you the PDF. It's, it's quite interesting, but you look at all, all these, these, they're different. It's, it's an attempt to kind of classify them. It's like a taxonomy of these different entities that you see. And, uh, and it's a good effort, but I look at them and most of them have a more or less humanoid form.

• 3:41:42Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:41:42Speaker 01

  You know, and uh, so this suggests to me that, you know, these, these, these are like dreams. These come from within, these comes from, come from the unconscious. They don't necessarily represent anything out there. There's something buried deep in the unconscious.

• 3:42:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:42:05Speaker 01

  Is a possibility. Where it gets kind of interesting is some of these things don't look human at all. You know, and then you wonder, what about the octopoid ones? What about the insectoid ones? Those kinds of things. Now maybe we're getting somewhere.

• 3:42:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:42:22Speaker 01

  You know, uh,

• 3:42:24Danny Jones?

  Do you kinda, do you?

• 3:42:25Speaker 01

  Cause there's no reason to think that, like we were talking about aliens before.

• 3:42:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:42:30Speaker 01

  There's no reason to think that aliens are gonna look like us.

• 3:42:33Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 3:42:34Speaker 01

  There's no, there's every reason to think they won't look like us.

• 3:42:38Danny Jones?

  Yes. That's what I, that's what I wanted to ask you. Uh, what do you make of all of the alien abduction accounts throughout history? Do you think that that's something similar to like a DMT trip happening when someone's sleeping? Or do you think like this is actually something that's happening exterior? Like in the real world, they're being brought somewhere?

• 3:43:01Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, the short answer is I don't know.

• 3:43:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:43:05Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think that yes, I think sometimes these are things that happen to people in hypnagogic states, in, in sleeping states, uh, in dreams. Uh, I mean, you've had very vivid dreams, right?

• 3:43:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:43:23Speaker 01

  And I guess we all have.

• 3:43:27Speaker 01

  And there are people that are involved in lucid dreaming and, uh, you know, it's just hard to say. It's just hard to say. Uh, and, and that's good. I, I don't think, I don't think there are any definitive answers to any, at least we don't have them yet, you know? Uh, have you ever read, uh, Oliver Sacks book, saw a book on hallucinations?

• 3:43:51Danny Jones?

  No, I haven't.

• 3:43:53Speaker 01

  That's worth reading. You wouldn't believe what people see.

• 3:44:00Danny Jones?

  I'm a big fan of Oliver Sacks, though.

• 3:44:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, Oliver Sacks. Yeah, it's a short book. There's a whole documented clinical literature about what people see.

• 3:44:11Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 3:44:12Speaker 01

  Uh, check out, I think it's Charles Bennett Syndrome is one of these, uh, one of these syndromes that's been studied by neurologists. I think it's Charles Bennett Syndrome. Named after this guy. Is that what it is?

• 3:44:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you are. Charles Bonnet Syndrome. That's right. Memory fail.

• 3:44:38Danny Jones?

  Charles Bonnet syndrome, a condition that causes people with vision loss to experience hallucinations, hallucinations or see things that aren't there.

• 3:44:44Speaker 01

  Right, right. And there's one, one case study that they, that they talk about, about this guy. Maybe it was Charles Bonnet or someone that had this condition, but every night, uh,

• 3:45:01Speaker 01

  He would see a, a full brass band would march through his room.

• 3:45:08Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 3:45:09Speaker 01

  With full lights and sound effects and everything, you know, and this was, this was like a nightly occurrence. And it was like, he was not upset. He looked forward to it. He enjoyed it.

• 3:45:22Danny Jones?

  That's amazing.

• 3:45:23Speaker 01

  Isn't that incredible?

• 3:45:24Danny Jones?

  Fascinating.

• 3:45:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So hallucination, uh, yeah, hallucination.

• 3:45:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah. As above, so below.

• 3:45:33Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly.

• 3:45:35Danny Jones?

  Well, Dennis, thank you very much. This has been mind exploding and, uh, very, very, a very, very fun and, uh, eye-opening conversation for me. I really appreciate you traveling here and doing this. Um.

• 3:45:48Speaker 01

  I thank you for asking me.

• 3:45:49Danny Jones?

  Yes. Um, and, and as well, we will link the Coca Summit down below for people to sign up and check it out. It's happening in about three weeks, the first week of, uh, February.

• 3:46:00Speaker 01

  First week of February. Yeah. Yeah. Much appreciate that. Uh, get people to look at the website. Oh, a couple of things. If anyone wants to, uh, connect on the summit or anything else, they can always, uh, email, uh, Annette at McKenna dot academy. She is the conference coordinator and she basically does everything for a lot of other things for the academy so that I can just come out here and rave. She's the one that actually makes sure it works, you know?

• 3:46:32Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 3:46:32Speaker 01

  So she's a wonderful person.

• 3:46:34Danny Jones?

  To Annette.

• 3:46:34Speaker 01

  She'll be very, uh, A N N E T T E. Annette at McKenna dot academy. And, uh, also I do want to thank my whole team at the academy. Just amazing humans, you know? Really fine people.

• 3:46:51Speaker 01

  And we're having fun, you know, we're having a lot of fun. And I have to say, this has been a blast.

• 3:46:57Danny Jones?

  Well, thank you, man.

• 3:46:58Speaker 01

  I enjoy it so much.

• 3:47:00Danny Jones?

  Likewise, I very much enjoyed this as well. Thanks again for coming.

• 3:47:03Speaker 01

  Happy to have come. Thanks for the invitation.

• 3:47:06Danny Jones?

  Of course, yeah, we'll have to do it again sometime.

• 3:47:08Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 3:47:09Danny Jones?

  All right. Good night, world.

• 3:47:12Speaker 02

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