#1552 Will Reeves | Bitcoin’s All-Time High Is Just the Beginning

Will Reeves is the Founder & CEO of Fold, a brand new publicly traded company this year that is executing the bitcoin treasury strategy and building financial services products around bitcoin. In this conversation we talk about bitcoin new all-time high, macro environment, what he learned from the gold bugs, bitcoin strategy Fold is using, and where bitcoin goes from here. =======================Invest as you spend with the Gemini Credit Card® (https://www.gemini.com/pomp). Sing up today and get approved by 6/30/25 to earn a $200 Bitcoin bonus. Terms apply (http://gemini.com/legal/credit-card-intro-promo-terms). The Gemini Credit Card is issued by WebBank. See rates & fees (https://www.gemini.com/legal/cardholder-agreement) for more details. Some exclusions apply to instant rewards in which rewards are deposited when the transaction posts. This content is sponsored by Gemini, but my opinions are my own.=======================Simple Mining makes Bitcoin mining simple and accessible for everyone. We offer a premium white glove hosting service, helping you maximize the profitability of Bitcoin mining. For more information on Simple Mining or to get started mining Bitcoin, visit https://www.simplemining.io/=======================BitcoinIRA: Buy, sell, and swap 75+ cryptocurrencies in your retirement account. Take 3 minutes to open your account & get connected to a team of IRA specialists that will guide you through every step of the process. Go to https://bitcoinira.com/pomp/ to earn up to $500 in rewards.=======================Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/=======================View 10k+ open startup jobs:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:16Speaker 01

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• 0:48Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. What's going on, guys? Today, we've got a great episode with Will Reeves. Will is the founder and CEO of Fold. Fold is a brand new publicly traded company this year that is executing the Bitcoin Treasury Strategy, but also building all kinds of financial service products in and around Bitcoin as well. Will has been in the Bitcoin community for a long time.

• 1:33Anthony Pompliano?

  He's got a lot of thoughts about Bitcoin's new all-time high, what's going on in the macro environment, what he learned from the gold bugs and them buying so much physical gold inside of Costco, and how that's actually going ahead and informing what they're doing at Fold. This conversation is fascinating. It's got a ton of insights in it. I hope you enjoy it. Here's my latest conversation with Will Reeves.

• 1:52Speaker 03

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 2:16Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:01Anthony Pompliano?

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• 4:03Anthony Pompliano?

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• 4:43Anthony Pompliano?

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• 5:20Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, Will, I thought a great place to start the conversation is Bitcoin just hit a brand new all time high. Everyone is incredibly enthusiastic. We're coming up on the Bitcoin Conference here. How do you think about Bitcoin's new price point breaking through kind of 109,000, 110,000? Is it just like we're going to the moon now? 150,000 is pretty much preordained? Or do you have some caution maybe and things are getting a little too frothy already?

• 5:44Speaker 05

  You know, it's been incredible to see us cross all time highs and at the same time be what I believe is the quietest all time high we've ever had. And perhaps to me, it's almost the most important all time high cross that we've ever had. This is the moment what Bitcoin is made for. We see the treasury yields skyrocketing, inflation fears continuing, people are seeking alternatives to the dollar. At the same time, the regulatory landscape is completely greased. America has completely lockstep con behind Bitcoin. We have the genius act that just passed.

• 6:24Speaker 05

  I think this thing continues to run. I think the quietness that we're hearing now is in preparation for a much larger continued run. And just seeing the forces that are entering the space en masse, they're just getting started. And so for me, I think this is a time when people are taking their initial positions and they're going to be waiting till 200, 250 to be reaping any profits at this point. 100% of Bitcoin investors are now in the black.

• 6:56Anthony Pompliano?

  So when we think about all this capital that's pouring in, one of the big areas that is obviously caught people's attention are Bitcoin treasury companies. And to your point, there's a macro environment where, you know, all the issues that we know are happening, Bitcoin's kind of purpose-built for this in a weird way. Satoshi is like saving tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people's economic value right at the moment that they need it with this great technology invention. But it does feel like there's kind of two stories now. There's like the individual story, which has been Bitcoin's story for 15 years, and people are adopting Bitcoin, the dollar-cost averaging into Bitcoin, they're benefiting from Satoshi's invention. But now Wall Street's playing. And I keep, you know, thinking about like, Wall Street's not sitting on the other side, and it's Wall Street versus Bitcoin. Wall Street is now like on the same

• 7:38Anthony Pompliano?

  side of the table, we're holding hands, you know, we are lovers forever because they are making a lot of money participating in this market now as well. So how do you look at the difference? Individuals and then kind of what I'll consider like traditional finance now becoming players as well?

• 7:52Speaker 05

  You know, we are, I think what we're seeing is different paths to everyone kind of reacting to a similar thing. The institutions and the financial system that we have all come to base our families on, our businesses on, and our countries on, is in a state of transition right now and an evolution. And for the first time, we have a tool like Bitcoin that is not only just new, but has matured, been over a decade of being bulletproof at this point. And we're all looking at the same thing. We are looking to Protect our savings, the fruits of our labor, from being debased in the instability

• 8:35Speaker 05

  of the world macro environment. And so whether it is the head of a household saying we need to start putting more of our savings into Bitcoin, whether that's a corporation saying we need to protect our treasury and put more into Bitcoin, or that a country is doing it, it's all talking about the same thing. And that's why you see the lockstep arm in arm, not on the other side of the table, but walking together ultimately to the same exact goal. And we're all responding to the same pressures in our own unique ways.

• 9:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, when we go and we take a look at how this is playing out, what I think we also are seeing are the public companies that are in the market. We're seeing a variety of them. So we have companies that are pure play. I'm just going to buy Bitcoin and kind of continue to do that. We have companies that through the Hail Mary, hey, I had a not so great business. This is going to save my business. It's working. We have businesses that are coming into the market that do something else, whether it's software, healthcare, real estate, you know, whatever. They continue to do that, some of them a lot, some of them a little, and I'm going to buy Bitcoin. Is there like a weight, a rate strategy to this? Or is this just literally put Bitcoin on your balance sheet? It's the Hail Mary

• 9:48Anthony Pompliano?

  pass that everyone catches 100% of the time. And so naturally, that economic incentive takes over. And we're going to see thousands of these throughout the public markets.

• 9:56Speaker 05

  So, long term, we're gonna, I believe every company will have a Bitcoin treasury strategy or position. I think we will stop, we will start to, we will stop hearing about the idea of a Bitcoin treasury strategy, and it's just going to be called good corporate governments, good capital allocation in the not too distant future. But what I think is really important to look at now is, you know, the market really rallied behind and found a model for a Bitcoin treasury strategy in micro strategy. But what we're seeing today is that is one strategy. We are seeing all different types of entrants, as you say, leveraging their unique position, their unique offering in the market, their unique perspective on the market to

• 10:40Speaker 05

  Bring a new face to the Bitcoin treasury and whether that is providing Bitcoin financial services that are able to accumulate Bitcoin for cheaper than it is to mine it like a fold or some of the other Bitcoin financial services block is included in here, whether it is a Bitcoin treasury strategy of an existing kind of what's called a zombie company and that there's the hail Mary there. I think we're clearly seeing that working, but more than anything, we get this Cambrian explosion of all the different ways Bitcoin can be leveraged and we're going to start to see who the real winners are, what the real strategies are. And I guarantee you, there's going to be flash in the pans. There's going to be some enduring models that we've seen. You know,

• 11:25Speaker 05

  at this point, the only real battle-tested Bitcoin treasury play is a is micro-strategy at the moment. They're all right now in the very early infancy of experimenting, providing a new path. And I think the markets clearly very hungry for these new experiments and new paths with the Bitcoin treasury. And so I think we're going to see a lot. It's going to be very interesting. And ultimately, I think this is great. Now, anytime you see this Cambrian explosion, you know, we saw this with the altcoins in 2017. We're gonna see a lot of turmoil. This is not going to be up into the right for everybody. And the market's going to help us decide. But I do

• 12:06Speaker 05

  know that there have, you know, in this in 2025 so far, there have been birthed some huge winners that will have enduring staying power going forward.

• 12:17Anthony Pompliano?

  And as we see this happen, talk a little bit, you guys are a public company. Now you went public, I think in February of this year. What have you guys specifically been doing on the Bitcoin treasury side? And maybe some of the lessons learned? Because everyone wants to talk about the financial performance. Some companies are going up, you know, a ton, some are going up a lot, some of them are going up some. But I think that really understanding like as you operate a business, executing this, what are those lessons? And maybe you can help educate the people who are thinking about doing this stuff, you know, in the future as well.

• 12:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think for Fold, you know, our unique proposition for entering the market is we are a Bitcoin Financial Services company that has been focused as a first mover on building tools for people to save and acquire Bitcoin. Essentially, what we believe is Bitcoin will be the fundamental basis for savings and personal finance going forward, and we're providing that platform. And for us, from the very beginning, it's always made sense that if we're providing tools for our customers to hold their savings in Bitcoin, that it only made sense for us to do the same, to align incentives with our customer base.

• 13:28Speaker 05

  And so for us, our focus is on the operating company first and foremost and growing that. We just finished earnings. Clearly, the platform and the play is working. User accounts are up 300%, revenue up 44%, everything, all major KPIs are up and to the right. And that is helping us prove our thesis that not only is this a in-demand for people moving their own personal Bitcoin to a Bitcoin treasury, but also for Fold being an avenue to be not only pushing on the adoption of the Bitcoin network, but also deeply exposed to Bitcoin the asset. So Fold gives a vehicle that you get exposure to both aspects of Bitcoin's growth. And so for us as a public company,

• 14:13Speaker 05

  which we, you know, I think it's only been 90 days or so since we've been here, you know, we are slightly constrained by being a new public company. There are certain tools we can't take advantage of, but in spite of that, we have not only been growing the operating company, but this year we've grown our Bitcoin holdings by 50% through convertible notes. And we intend to continue to increase our Bitcoin treasury position because number one, we feel like this is an absolutely opportune time to be accumulating Bitcoin. And we feel like this window is very special. We believe that our Bitcoin treasury is going to underpin the financial services that we offer in the future. You can think about Bitcoin lending, Bitcoin-denominated insurance. All of this can be, have a multiple.

• 14:57Speaker 05

  Fire effect when you have a large Bitcoin treasury beneath you. And so the thing that I think is the most important for people entering the markets is being clear about what you are and what you're doing. So are you pure Bitcoin treasury company? Is there an operating company? How does that interact with it? All of these are very important for the market to understand. And today, I think the only one that truly the has kind of come into the mainstream understanding for investors is just pure play Bitcoin treasury. That is what MicroStrategy created that path. And so I see fold as creating the net, what I believe is ultimately the next and long term Bitcoin treasury model.

• 15:38Speaker 05

  That is a treasury and an operating company that have a synergistic relationship with one another that are ultimately making each side more value, more valuable, more value for shareholders and better products for customers.

• 15:51Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think about that operating component, how do you think about allocating capital? Is it just like, hey, I think Bitcoin is going to go up X percent. And therefore, if I can invest that money on the operating side and get a better rate of return than I do that? Or is it like, hey, every dollar of revenue or profit, we go, you know, 20% over here, 80% over here? Just talk through the framework and decision making.

• 16:10Speaker 05

  So we've been, we've been operating as a Bitcoin company since 2019. We've been on the side and even prior to that, we've experienced it. We've been on the side of bull markets, bear markets, crab markets, everywhere in between. And what we know is that we need to be nimble and opportunistic in many ways to take full advantage of this. And so we currently do not have a kind of programmatic X percent of cash flows or X percent of dollars are going into Bitcoin. Instead, what we, what we do are number one, make sure we have all the tools we need activated to make opportunistic calls on when we believe at number one, Bitcoin is a good entry point.

• 16:54Speaker 05

  And number two, or number two, we have an opportunity on the operating side to beat a Bitcoin return. That bar is very, very, very high. And that's a great thing. I think it instills excellence. And a much higher bar for uh um uh decision making in the in the corporate structure. And so as of today, we really have are sticking with what has, I think, brought us to this point today. It's being nimble, being very clear and uh experienced in the market, knowing that these things can change quickly to take advantage of the volatility, because volatility is not something that we can expect over time. And one thing we know about Bitcoin, it will bring us volatility.

• 17:36Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think about the potential risks of executing this strategy, you mentioned the volatility there. How do you mitigate the risk, right? Is it just, hey, I keep my debt levels low enough where I can't kind of quote, quote, be liquidated or have to pay back the the debt instead of converting? Or is there some other way to mitigate that actual risk in these Bitcoin treasury strategies?

• 17:55Speaker 05

  Number one, the business needs to be needs to be good or and or growing together. And so this is where we get into these zombie companies who have added Bitcoin. This is the challenge I think they're going to run into is that uh they're either going to be constrained about how large they can build their treasury. Uh, or the operating company could represent a actually a threat to the Bitcoin treasury, could liquidate the Bitcoin treasury. So for us, what we have always, um, uh, you know, the first, the first goal that we have is building an excellent company that is growing, that has profitable margins and will continue to on the path to developing even more cash flows to send back to our customers and continue to build our treasury. So that's the first and foremost.

• 18:40Speaker 05

  The second is just good capital allocation and cash management. So always making sure you have enough short term runway to uh weather any of the volatility of Bitcoin. That's where, you know, honestly, dollars come in handy in some cases, and this is to handle short term needs. And so it's managing that, that is relatively simple and straightforward. But it really is unique to your business model. How capital intensive is your business? Fold is not very capital intensive, very capital light, not too much overhead. So we have a little bit more leeway on that side. The other bit is making sure. That you have all the tools ready. So Bitcoin treasury in our estimation is not something that just should shit sit there and collect dust.

• 19:26Speaker 05

  We believe the Bitcoin treasury should be returning back to the company, whether that's driving down costs of capital, whether that is being able to provide innovative new financial services that simply don't exist yet. That's the type of edge that our treasury is going to give fold and create opportunities for our operating company that just no other company is going to have because they do not have the treasury. And so a good mix of capital, uh, capital management, understanding the risks and specifically what your business needs. But at the end of the day, you need to have a business that is throwing off cash and or growing very fast. And those two, those, a combination of that, I think, is a really strong Bitcoin treasury play. If you're not only focused on building the Bitcoin treasury.

• 20:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk a little bit about the earnings call that you guys recently did. You guys explained a lot about kind of what's going on with the business so far and how, how the results are. What, what can you kind of summarize from that? That would be helpful for people to understand both fold, but also kind of the broader Bitcoin market.

• 20:23Speaker 05

  Yeah. So for, I think the, the number one headline off of this is that, uh, uh, the bull market is well underway. We not only see this from the beginning where we've seen, um, uh, corporates and sovereign adoption, uh, happening. A lot of rumblings I expect over the next week, we're going to hear even more. But from full perspective and what we're even seeing and out of the numbers, you know, 300% growth in, in customers, 70% growth in volume, a 60, uh, 44% growth in, in revenue. Bold is specifically here providing Bitcoin services to retail customers and specifically people who are just getting started.

• 21:05Speaker 05

  We are one of the, uh, I think best companies to be an on-ramp into Bitcoin. Just come and earn rewards. Start buying your first bit of Bitcoin. So we really are the canary in the coal mine for many, in many respects. And we are seeing, uh, uh, great movement here from people who are not here to speculate on Bitcoin, but people here who are saving in it. And I think that is a Shift in what we are looking at in the market is that the world of altcoins and the long tail token world, this very fast-paced speculative altcoin opportunities. We're seeing the market really shift to Bitcoin as the signal and Bitcoin as a powerful tool for saving. It is not a speculative investment now.

• 21:48Speaker 05

  It is a very mature and and recognized aspect of your portfolio. And as of right now, if you do not have Bitcoin in your portfolio, you're the odd man out, even of the most traditional legacy financial institutions.

• 22:04Anthony Pompliano?

  So you guys now are going to go and you're going to launch these gift cards. Describe a little bit this kind of whole gift card play. And I think you took some inspiration, maybe, or some lessons learned from gold, which the gold bugs will be excited because they feel like they're teaching the Bitcoiners one one thing finally. Explain kind of what the gift card strategy is and how you guys are going to kind of get this out into the market.

• 22:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I think the best place to start is with what we've seen in the market. Costco today has been has been reporting. They're selling $200 million of gold per month to their retail customers. This is people coming into Costco, buying groceries and buying gold. So for us, we looked at this and says, this is phenomenal. Number one, this is a brand new channel that really is not explored by for for Bitcoin accumulation. Really Bitcoin is in a brokerage account or it's in the App Store. That's really where it is. There are Bitcoin ATMs here and there, but it's a much smaller niche market.

• 23:08Speaker 05

  I'm talking about on the shelves of the biggest retailers like a Costco. And so we saw this and said, you know, how can we bring this to this to Bitcoin? And so Fold has always been an innovator on bringing traditional financial products and embedding Bitcoin at the core of them. And so we developed the Bitcoin gift card. And this allows you to walk into a store, grocery store, retailers, online or offline, and buy Bitcoin.

• 23:38Speaker 05

  So you're gonna see large orange Bitcoin logo bees on the shelves and checkout aisles of major retailers this year, and you're gonna be able to buy Bitcoin. This is not only just for gifts, but for bringing Bitcoin to physical spaces right within reach of millions of people at the stores and places they already trust and they already love. And so for us, we think Bitcoin absolutely can achieve some of the success that Costco has seen with gold sales. And yes, Gold Bugs, we looked at you as inspiration for this. But I think really the innovation is not just creating the easiest way to acquire Bitcoin in a retail location, but more importantly,

• 24:22Speaker 05

  it's packaged in a very familiar way where all retailers already have distribution channels for this. They already have a model to carry gift cards. So for us, it's very easy to get them on these shelves. We have 150,000 points of sale that we are going to get access to with this Bitcoin gift card, and that includes the largest Fortune 100 retailers in the country.

• 24:46Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you see those people going into the stores, how many of them are buying it because it's cool? How many of them are buying it because they're worried about some macro, you know, component? How many of them are buying it because maybe they're doing something nefarious? Like, there's some advantage to having, you know, kind of gold or something like that? Like, what's driving it? And I always go back to this idea of human psychology for different demographics, like from an age perspective. When I go talk to someone who's 65, 70 years old, they actually agree a lot of times with a 25 or 35-year-old. They just come to a different conclusion. They're like, oh, they're gonna print money, they're gonna do that. Let me go buy gold. The younger people are saying, let me go buy Bitcoin. But also, the younger people are much

• 25:27Anthony Pompliano?

  more digitally savvy. So, I don't know, maybe the people in New York City and San Francisco, and like, those players, they're not gonna be going to physical stores as much as maybe in, like, the Midwest, or, you know, maybe somewhere in the South. So, talk through a little bit of, like, the human psychology, and then, you know, are there certain geographies or certain demographics that you think are actually the area where this will kind of resonate best with?

• 25:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I think you're right. I think people are experiencing similar macro pressures on their world, but they seek different tools in which to express or to mitigate against those. And Bitcoin, I think, has absolutely been top of mind for the younger cohorts. And when I say younger, I'm actually talking more like 30, 50, that age group. But for gold, I think there's been a very strong physical, psychological barrier for the fact that Bitcoin is not "physical" or can't touch it, or where can I get it?

• 26:26Speaker 05

  And so I think bringing Bitcoin to physical locations in a physical form is actually psychologically going to help unlock a lot of these customers. And I think it's going to help us open that demographic of larger or older demographics, but also for people who don't necessarily buy it today. Who are the people who are shopping in these stores? Typically, it's the spouse of the household who is doing the shopping. And what we've seen with our rewards business is that if you provide Bitcoin in a context that is valuable to an individual and their needs, their incentives in their family structure or social structure, they will adopt it.

• 27:11Speaker 05

  And so while Bitcoin, if it's only pitched as gold or an investment, typically the head of household, the male of the household is going to be the one more into it. That's historically what's been their role in the house. Now spouses are ones that control the wallet in the house. They're doing the spending. They are managing the checking account. And so rewards and Bitcoin gift cards in stores really resonate with this group and get more and more of them to actually have a way they can interact with this asset. And so I think across the board, we're going to see new demographics being unlocked by this product. But ultimately, when you think about this product, it's less a gift card and more just a way to access Bitcoin,

• 27:55Speaker 05

  because this card is not just going to... To be on retail stores, it's going to be at your credit card rewards marketplace. So you can swap your airline miles for Bitcoin. It's going to be at your your preferred loyalty. It's going to be offered by your employer when they want to give gifts to all the employees. And they want to give Bitcoin, but there just hasn't been an easy way to do it. Bold has created a vehicle to satisfy this this. And, you know, gift card market today is, you know, three hundred plus billion, growing very, very quickly. Gift cards are the number one gift in America. And so, again, it's just testament to providing a familiar product

• 28:38Speaker 05

  that is imbued with something special. Bitcoin is going to have an ability to be adopted by brand new cohorts and demographics that haven't done it today because they don't want to download in exchange from the App Store. And they're they're not controlling the brokerage account to buy the ETF. Bold has been giving this group brand new ways to engage with Bitcoin.

• 29:03Speaker 00

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• 30:16Anthony Pompliano?

  What do they do with the Bitcoin once they get it? Do you guys have data on like, do they hold it? Do they sell it? Do they leverage it? Do they convert it into Bitcoin treasury company? Like, what are they doing? Or do you not know?

• 30:26Speaker 05

  So on the fold platform, what we know, so what we see with this Bitcoin gift card so far, we see people buying it in lieu of a treasury bond. So there's this weird kind of cohort of, hey, I'm going to be the cool grandmother this this Christmas or graduation. And instead of a treasury bond, I'm gonna, I'm gonna buy Bitcoin. We also see it as a way of allowance for families, giving Bitcoin to your kids. From there, they can convert it into cash. If they need to buy something, they can save it for themselves. But what fold is doing in the platform is it makes Bitcoin as liquid as your dollars. But the benefit is it can't be debased. There is no issuer and it has all the incredible properties that Bitcoin brings.

• 31:11Speaker 05

  But with fold Bitcoin has none of the constraints that it has typically had. On fold, you can in an instant convert your Bitcoin into physical cash at any ATM. You can use it to pay any bill. You can use it to buy anything anywhere Visa is accepted. And you can also use it in what I believe in what is the most common on the platform is to use it as a superior savings vehicle. So we've really seen a variety of use cases. And part of what we've done at fold is to create an ecosystem that allows you to express your desire and wishes out of Bitcoin. It is, it can be your savings tool. It can be your payment tool. It can be your way to gift.

• 31:53Speaker 05

  It can be many things to many people and it should be that way. And fold is unlocking that for new demographics and whole new cohorts of people.

• 32:02Anthony Pompliano?

  When, um, when you think about where we're going, Bitcoin's price, obviously ticking off, global liquidity expanding. I think now everyone's convinced, I'm definitely convinced, hey, it doesn't matter how hard they try with Doge or anything, they're not gonna be able to get the budget under control. National debt's gonna go up, annual deficit's gonna explode. Like Bitcoiners are right, right? And I think that we all held on a little bit of hope of like, I got my Bitcoin because I hope I'm Wrong, but let's see if this Doge thing can work. It feels like they, you know, went full speed, ran into a wall and the wall is just unmovable. You know, they were like getting fought every single inch of the way. And if Elon Musk and, you know, the co-founder of Airbnb and the, just the people we send in there, if they can't do this,

• 32:45Anthony Pompliano?

  there's no bureaucrat that's ever going to be able to do this. No politician is ever going to be able to do this. So do we get hyper Bitcoinization or like is one day your financials that you're filing like completely denominated in Bitcoin? Like, well, how do you see this playing out over, I don't know, you know, you and I are both relatively young. We got another 30 years or so to play this game. Like, what is it towards the end of our career? What does it look like?

• 33:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, I think it is absolutely something that we think about quite a bit and something that as, you know, one of the first Bitcoin financial services to go public, we think about these things. You know, we're also leading a lot of this. We're providing a model of what this could be. And so I think denomination of, of your financial statements of Bitcoin is incredible. I think we will start to see that. We are also going to see some of the things like today, the multiple topical stuff is look at, look at what has happening at with Meta Planet. I mean, the, the, the emperor has no clothes at this moment. Like you said, all the biggest artillery we've thrown at it.

• 33:48Speaker 05

  You know, Elon Doge bringing it down. We have thrown up, uh, thrown up, uh, elected in a, a president who said, no military spending, bring down the budgets and we're seeing the opposite happen, right? All of these things that we said, okay, we can solve it with this. We're getting very quick and clear answers that that's not going to solve our problems. And so I think we're going to see more and more Meta Planet style situations where global liquidity is going to be searching for the exit. And right now, today, there are more exits into Bitcoin than there ever have been. And that's just not, uh, it's not just about, you know, Bitcoin being, you know, uh, accessible via tether in a Bitcoin at a international exchange.

• 34:32Speaker 05

  It's now almost on every single. Global public market, it is now in ETFs. There are a myriad of ways for people to find an exit, an escape hatch that hasn't been here today. And so I do still subscribe to the gradually then suddenly school of thought here. And it's going to be messy. Like we see, Meta Planet today is halting the Japanese markets every single day. They can't, they can't keep the stock open for more than 10 minutes before shutting it down. And that's not representative of just people realizing Bitcoin's a great store of value. That's realizing that the house is on fire and you need to get out.

• 35:14Anthony Pompliano?

  It is, it's pretty incredible to see how this is kind of spreading from market to market to market to market. When does the capital flowing into Bitcoin treasury companies? When does that spigot get turned off? Is it a trade that eventually can be exhausted? Or to your point, is it, no, it only accelerates from here because people are quote unquote leaving?

• 35:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I think, I think the, the leaving part is what we're seeing a, a big spike right now. And that is a, providing a lot of this momentum that we're seeing today. I think it apps, this trade absolutely has a, has an expiration date in terms of how we view the trade today. And this is a, a major window that I think is only open for probably another 18 to 24 months of companies making moves and positioning themselves to be the most capital rich and well positioned in the new economic environment going forward. This window is going to be closing.

• 36:19Speaker 05

  And I think what you're seeing is not only are people searching for the exits, but you're also seeing these public companies searching for the new entrance. And we're going to see it get crowded. And what you'll see is a lot of separation and dislocation in the market. What you're going to see is, number one, are you proving that you can continue and efficiently accumulate Bitcoin very quickly? That onto the balance sheet with minimal dilution, or at least in an accretive way. What we're seeing there is that there's going to be a few winners there absolutely that are going to be occupying spots one to five. But I think once that trade starts to wane, we start to look back actually in a weird way, kind of how we looked at the miners.

• 37:02Speaker 05

  How can you accumulate Bitcoin the most efficient in the most efficient ways? We're going to be asking that in the future. It's not going to be this mad rush of massive accumulation. It is what businesses can sustainably and efficiently acquire more Bitcoin more efficiently than their counterparts. And that is going to be kind of like just another, what a great business is previously. Develop cash flows, but these cash flows are SATs flows. And it's in Folds estimation that being a financial services company that operates essentially on a Bitcoin standard for companies or for individuals and businesses that are running all of their Bitcoin financial needs through us,

• 37:45Speaker 05

  that we have a damn good shot at becoming a very efficient accumulator of Bitcoin over the long haul. Because we are receiving Bitcoin native revenues, Bitcoin native payments. And for us, our customers are holding all of their Bitcoin with us. And so I think there's going to be a first chapter, which is the mad rush, the massive accumulation phase that we are being measured on big numbers happening very, very quickly. Where we are soon going to be moving to a world of, hey, who has over the long haul developed a platform or a strategy of accumulating Bitcoin more efficiently than everyone else? And I think we'll start to shift, but right now we're in the mania.

• 38:28Speaker 05

  And that's that we were going to be in this world for another probably 18 to 24 months.

• 38:35Anthony Pompliano?

  It's, um, it's fun, man. It's fun to watch this play out. Um, I'm so, I'm so excited for you guys and you guys seem to be having fun in the public markets, but also kind of taking this differentiated approach, which obviously seems to be working out pretty well. So congratulations on all the success. And I think that you guys will continue to kind of pioneer this idea of building these financial services and driving cash flow, also executing the Bitcoin treasury strategy. Where can we send people to find you guys or find any of the Fold products?

• 39:05Speaker 05

  I would check out foldapp.com. You're gonna see today what I think is the most comprehensive financial services powered by Bitcoin. You have our debit card, you have our rewards, you have our Bitcoin custody and exchange, and now the Bitcoin debit gift card, which is going to be showing up in retail stores nationwide this year. But you can try it out today directly at foldapp.com. And then I'm on Twitter at W L R V S. And if you've got ideas, if you're using the full product and you have, you know, something you want to see, I'm absolutely open. I love hearing from customers and those trying things out. So hit me up on Twitter and it's gonna be absolutely, like you said,

• 39:47Speaker 05

  a very fun ride over the next, over the next few months. As the journey has been since, since I think we both got started in it. It's just a, I couldn't imagine doing anything else that actually.

• 39:59Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to do this and we'll definitely do it again in the future.

• 40:04Speaker 05

  All right, Anthony. Great to be here.

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