#191: Last General Standing - Final Commander Of The Afghan National Army, General Haibatullah Alizai

In August 2021, the world watched in disbelief as Afghanistan collapsed, leaving two decades of sacrifice, hope, and war in question. America’s longest war, forged in the aftermath of 9/11 and costing thousands of lives and billions of dollars, ended in chaos, confusion, and the swift return of the Taliban. But what truly happened in those final, frantic days? Who held the line until the line was irrevocably gone? In this exclusive interview, host Fran Racioppi https://www.linkedin.com/in/francisracioppijr/ sat down with General Haibatullah Alizai https://www.linkedin.com/in/haibatullah-alizai-935781220/, the final Chief of the Afghan National Army, now living in exile. General Alizai offers a raw, firsthand account of the challenges, the political decisions, and the human cost that led to the nation’s swift downfall. From the initial hope sparked by the post-9/11 intervention to the crushing weight of the Taliban's propaganda machine, he confronts the harsh realities faced by Afghan forces and the devastating decisions that altered the course of history. Discover the candid perspective of a warrior who fought for a country that no longer exists. General Alizai speaks on loyalty, the pervasive impact of corruption, the strategic failures that enabled the Taliban's resurgence, and his powerful message to the American service members who served alongside him. War provides Warriors perspective. Is it possible to reclaim what was lost? And was the 20-year commitment truly worth the cost? Dive into the complexity of war, the human reality behind America’s longest conflict, and the future of a nation still searching for stability in the shadow of the Taliban. This is the untold story of the Afghan Army's last stand. HIGHLIGHTS 0:00 Introduction1:51 Welcome to the Jedburgh Podcast5:11 Afghanistan, 200119:23 America’s Goal In Afghanistan28:51 Afghan Sentiment30:00 Taliban Propaganda36:39 Taliban Today43:30 US Soldiers in Afghanistan49:29 Can Afghanistan be reclaimed?52:51 Leaving Family59:20 Future of Afghanistan Quotes: “You have to have a steel-made ass to be in the Army.”“Kunduz collapsed in September 2015 because coordination was poor.” “We are not going to sit. We are going to solve the problem.”“In the last five days of collapse, I became the Chief of the entire Army.”“I believe the Americans came to Afghanistan to punish their enemies who coordinated the attack in New York.”“Who else has fought more than Afghans for freedom.”“They started with chopping heads.”“The poppies became popular during the first Taliban term.”“They all became strength points to the Taliban and weak points to us.” “When we really understood what was going on, it was a bit too late.” “The only thing the Taliban is still doing is brutality.”“Before the US came to Afghanistan, there was a civil war.”“Now we have thousands of warlords in Afghanistan.”“We lost thousands of people and all those lives were dedicated to support the humanity and democracy the right way."“Have we left something unfinished?”“We should find a way to finish the unfinished business.”“The Taliban has destroyed the Afghan history and honor.”“The Taliban are 10 times more vulnerable than 2001.”“Next is change. It has to happen.”“It will be a question that will bring hesitation.”“I believe we are just a whistle away from bringing the change in Afghanistan.”“What country in the world can do everything on their own?” The Jedburgh Podcast is brought to you by Onebrief; enabling military leaders to make innovative, informed and deliberate decisions faster than ever before. Superhuman command wins wars. Follow the Jedburgh Podcast https://www.instagram.com/jedburghpodcast/ and the Green Beret Foundation https://www.instagram.com/greenberetfoundation/ on social media. Listen on your favorite podcast platform https://pod.link/1558608802, read on our website https://greenberetfoundation.org/the-jedburgh-podcast/, and watch the full video version on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@jedburghpodcast as we show why America must continue to lead from the front, no matter the challenge.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Fran Racioppi?

  Afghanistan was America's longest war. Forged from the rubble of the 9/11 attacks, hundreds of thousands served. Over 2,400 American service members gave their lives. Over 20,000 came home wounded. Hundreds of thousands of Afghans lost their lives. The world changed in the post-9/11 era. In August 2021, the world watched as Afghanistan collapsed in real time, leaving many confused, lost, and questioning the last 20 years. Few understand those final days better than those responsible for holding the line until the line was gone. In this episode, I sat down with General Haibatullah Al Azai, final chief of the Afghan National Army. Now in exile in the United States,

• 0:45Fran Racioppi?

  he shared his version of the fall of Afghanistan, the realities behind the headlines. In the future of a country still searching for stability, General Al Azai confronts the challenges faced by Afghan forces and the decisions that altered the course of a nation. He speaks candidly about loyalty, leadership, and what it means to fight for a country that no longer exists. He shares his view on the current state of Afghanistan, the regional dynamics shaping his future, and the responsibility of the international community moving forward. War provides warriors perspective. This is a conversation about the complexity of war, the cost of political decisions, and the human reality behind America's longest war. The Jedberg Podcast is brought to you by OneBreed, enabling military leaders to make innovative,

• 1:29Fran Racioppi?

  informed, and deliberate decisions faster than ever before. Superhuman command wins wars. Follow the Jedberg Podcast and the Green Beret Foundation on social media. Listen on your favorite podcast platform, read on our website, and watch the full video version on YouTube as we show you why America must continue to lead from the front, no matter the challenge.

• 1:50Fran Racioppi?

  General Al Azai, welcome to the Jedberg Podcast.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Thank you, brother. Thanks for having me.

• 1:56Fran Racioppi?

  And thanks for welcoming us to your home.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Absolutely. My pleasure and honor.

• 2:01Fran Racioppi?

  It's been almost five years since the fall of Afghanistan and the fall of Kabul and the resurgence of the Taliban in power in Afghanistan. And we've covered a lot of that story over the last several years, the situation in Afghanistan, the 9/11, the trajectory of the global war on terror. My life, it's changed America's position in the world in a lot of ways. It's changed the American military, but it changed Afghanistan. And a lot of times, as Americans, we tend to be centric to America and to the United

• 2:44Fran Racioppi?

  States, and we forget about the impact that our actions and things that happen in the world and what we do in the world have on other nations and other people. And we sit here outside of Washington DC, and we look at your career, your life, where you've come. We talked earlier, your three phases, pre 9/11, then the American occupation of Afghanistan, and now your life as a civilian. But in August of 2021, you were the chief of the Afghan Army.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Yep, that's true.

• 3:20Fran Racioppi?

  So to you, as you look at Afghanistan today, and you see the Taliban now in the last couple of days has said, you know, women won't go to school, and they've imposed more and more restrictions. You look back, you know, at your life, where you are today. I want to start with asking you, what's it like? And how are you?

• 3:47Speaker 02

  It's been tough. I cannot say it's easy. We, being a soldier or coming from a military family, always tried to put our lives into defending the country, the constitution, the people. Unfortunately, now, when we see all these radical actions happening in Afghanistan against Afghans, it's really difficult to see and accept that. It's an every moment, every hour, everyday business, thinking about Afghanistan, thinking about the people. To be honest, in four, almost five years,

• 4:31Speaker 02

  it's been very difficult to balance, to think about yourself, about the country and your family in the meantime, all together, in the same balanced way. So, most of my time is being spent on thinking about the country, about the people, and just trying to find ways to put an end to the situation that Afghan people are under that. That's how I feel and that's how I'm busy with right now.

• 5:05Fran Racioppi?

  Take me back to August of 2001. What was Afghanistan like?

• 5:12Speaker 02

  2001 was a different time. We were immigrants in Pakistan at that time, in 2001. We escaped from the civil war and the Taliban first regime. Since there were no schools in Afghanistan, it was total fear. And I'm coming from a family that I have five brothers and five sisters. With my stepbrother, we are six brothers. A big family, and then my sisters would not have the opportunity to go to school, even when they were small, little ones at that time. And then my father, who used to be in the military before the civil war, he decided...

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Like we cannot live here anymore because the biggest reason is the school for boys and girls. And we had to move to Pakistan. And we were there for almost five or six years. We were going to school, but it was not our country. It was like every day we would be bothered by our neighbors. At the school, they would call us, hey, they would not call us on our names. They would call us Mahajira. Mahajir is immigrant, hey immigrant, how are you? Or they would tell us Gilam Jam. Gilam Jam was a famous word.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Or at that time, they were referring to Doostum's militias during the civil war. And every Afghan would be seen as Gilam Jam to Pakistanis. We were living in Peshawar, they were all our own Pashtuns. But still, they were not accepting us there as some people that are in great danger in their country for school, for some opportunities, for work. So there were a lot of, I can say, unhappy moments in the childhood, in primary school, middle school. And then in two thousand one, after the September eleven happened.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  My father moved back to Afghanistan. I think it was December two thousand one when he went back to Afghanistan. And we were able to secure our home back. And he did some renovation and stuff. And then after two or four months, I think it was May two thousand two, we came back to Afghanistan. And at this time, when I left Afghanistan, I was in in first grade of school. When I came back to Afghanistan, I joined the eighth grade of school in two thousand one. And then we took it from there. We were going to school with my brothers and my sisters.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  And I finished the school end of two thousand four and I joined. Find the police academy. However, I took the exam, which was the most toughest exam in Afghanistan for the military academy at first. And then my father was the chief of police of Kandahar at that time. So we came to Afghanistan. He was a colonel from the pre-several war regime. And then he got his one star in two thousand three. And he became chief of police in two thousand five in Kandahar. So he told me like, hey, you are not going to become an officer. I said, why not? Says like, you have to go to Canada for some school.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Like you should become engineer or a doctor. And I was like, Dad, I'm not gonna become a good doctor or engineer at all. It took few months, this discussion. And then the academy started without asking permission. I took the exam, passed the exam with good marks. And then they found out at the family and they were like, no, you're not gonna do this. So I missed the first year opportunity. And then we moved to Kandahar. And then I had to take another exam for the police academy. So I just tried to make myself failed in the second exam. So I won't join the army or the ANDSF.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  And I will have a reason for that, like, oh, I failed the exam. I took the exam and I passed it again. Since I was always a topper in school. I always had thirty, forty people under me, like my classmates doing their administration stuff and doing like that. I passed that exam and then again, my dad was like, no, you're not gonna do this. So one night, he's coming from his work. He was a tough guy. He's still a tough guy. He's a three-star retired general. And it was not easy to talk to him and his eyes look into his eyes. And then I entered his room. He was changing his boots, opening the sleeves. And I said, it's not good. He said, what's not good? My mom is standing.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  And I'm like, it's not good that eighteen-year-old American women are coming and defending our country. And a general is not allowing his son to join the armed forces. Who the hell will defend the country? You will retire in ten, fifteen years. And he looked at me like this and said like, You have to go, you have to have a steel-made ass to be in the army. I said, I do have that. So I got really excited and happy. And the same night, I took the bus, 3:30 AM, Ahmad Shah Abdaalib bus transport. And I traveled straight to Kabul, shaved my head and got into the police academy.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  So this is how I started. On first six months, I topped this class. Again, I became in charge of forty people in the group. Three years with practical, four years graduated end of 2008. And then joined the police in west of Afghanistan and Herat. So every year, we had three months of winter holidays and everybody would go to home. I would just go to some part of Afghanistan and do practical work. When I graduated, I was eligible to become first lieutenant. And that's I went to Herat and then to Mazar Sharif in 2009

• 11:44Speaker 02

  and all the way to 2010, 11. And then to Paktia, to the police zone. Took me a year there. I was working on all these P2KG. Remember, Paktika, Kost, Gazni, Wardak, Logar, on their police trainings and human rights situations there and operations and stuff like that. Came back to Kabul in 2013 and joined the DPI, Directorate of Police Intelligence. So their job was to watch every single police, not to become corrupt politician. And like it was a CI type of police force. And then I was watching these intelligence guys

• 12:27Speaker 02

  being an internal controller for these couple thousand people. So made 2015. And then after that, got the opportunity to go to UK for staff college, a little bit more than a year, and came back mid 2016. And then joined the Afghan JSOC, NDS, switched from police into the National Directorate of Security into the NDS. And I became the Deputy Director NDS for the Joint Special Operations Coordination Center. At the beginning, it was just a five or six months old organization. The aim was to bring coordination between Afghan SOF and NATO SOF forces, plus the CT

• 13:12Speaker 02

  and the organized crime departments of Afghan government, plus NATO and some embassies like US Embassy. And the reason was when Kunduz collapsed in September 2015, the coordination was poor. We had the opportunity to be prepped for any crises in the future. So that's why the JSOC was established in 2016. And I joined that and we did a lot of stuff there and moved up. I was there for three years and then me being highly engaged with all three ministries, like Ministry of Interior with the National Directorate of Security or NDS and the Ministry of Defense.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Then we got into situations that we would deploy task forces to parts of Afghanistan. And then we had five lines of efforts focusing on the enemy leadership, their networks, their infrastructure, their supply routes, and finally crisis response. That enabled us to be more tactically and operationally get involved with the local forces, police and the local and regional corps and NDS provincial departments. So that influence gave me the strength and to the team.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  We were core team there back in the days. And we got to understand the real problem in Afghanistan, like why we are taking a lot of casualties and why the recruitment has become a problem, what the issues are with the trainings and. A lot of those stuff. So we started to dig into every single problem from our perspective. Since we were working with Rangers and TFs and different other special forces teams and that culture also influenced us. We learned things like, hey, we are not going to sit. We're going to solve the problem or bring the problem up unless we are not stopped

• 15:26Speaker 02

  fully. So we just tried to bypass and skip all those bureaucratic steps that were pausing us or keeping us back from moving. In 2019, based on all those three, four years of work in JSOC and did a lot of targeting, analysis and the collection, I was appointed as the GSG III of the Army at the Ministry of Defense. 2019 elections, the Taliban, Al-Fatah operation, they used to announce annual operations.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  And then every year we would have a fighting season, started with the spring and ended up with the autumn. But this year it was the Al-Fatah and Taliban part, they will take over Afghanistan in 2019. It was the first time we drafted Afghan campaign plan after 19 years. And that worked. Taliban could not take any provinces. We were able to secure the Afghan elections, presidential elections independently for the first time. And then we took over 12 districts from Taliban after 24 were already collapsed and many years ago.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  So they didn't have any achievements. I moved to the north as corp commander in 209th corp in Mazhar Shereif when people were expecting Taliban to pray on Friday in Mazhar Shereif Blue Mosque. So that's how I went there. And I immediately started offensive operations all over Balkh province in the north. And Wadi Khan used to be the AOB North Commander. He's still active, so it was a nickname for him, Wali Khan. And then Zumarai replaced him. Yeah, we did some good, cool stuff there too. And came back to Kabul in 2021.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  And I just became the Anasak Commander, Afghan National Army Special Operations Command. We launched a surge all over the country. And there is a lot we can talk through. And last five days of the collapse, I became the Chief of Army for entire Air Force, Ground Forces, military. But it was, I think, too late. If we had a little bit time, like a month or two, it would be a different situation. Came here to US, September 2021. I left Afghanistan on August 25th. And since then, I have been residing in DC area, Maryland, Virginia.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  I've changed places a few times now. And I work, I live with my brother. He is working too for a company. And besides, I work for survival and for the family. I do a little bit of politics and I'm fully engaging with my soldiers and officers that are left behind, especially that are in Afghanistan, and checking on them and talking to them. And that's how I'm doing day-to-day business here in the US.

• 18:53Fran Racioppi?

  You saw an evolution of Afghanistan from 9/11 through 2021. You spoke about all of the schools you went to and the growth that you went through in your career. And the United States spent 20 years there in varying degrees, large force, small force, large force, and continuously evolved our policy within Afghanistan. In your opinion, and from being in the roles that you held, what do you think America's goal was in Afghanistan?

• 19:32Speaker 02

  I believe initially the Americans came to Afghanistan to punish their enemies who attacked or coordinated the attack in New York, nine eleven. But then, I guess, to make that mission successful, I believe they were not supposed to or they were not thinking about staying in Afghanistan for twenty years. They thought it would be just sneak in, eliminate and come back kind of operation, but then it took longer than they could expect. For few reasons, one was the Iraq war that grabbed the attention from Afghanistan away.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  Counterterrorism mission started taking longer than we all expected. Then the US was like, hey, now we have to make this successful. So they stepped into nation building to have the population with them, the people, the education and agriculture and all other parts and elections, democracy and stuff. It really worked well to certain points.

• 20:45Fran Racioppi?

  Can you bring democracy to Afghanistan?

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Of course. Afghanistan people are the same people like other parts of the world when it comes to the freedom, you know? And who else has fought more than Afghans for freedom in the history? It's been packed fifty years now. We have been fighting for freedom. We fought the Soviets, we fought the terrorists for twenty years. It was for freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of education, freedom of work. I believe the Afghan people are thirsty for democracy. There could be some differences based on the cultures,

• 21:31Speaker 02

  based on the different parts of the world. That's too east, this is too west here. It could not be a total photocopy. But yeah, there is a definition for democracy in Afghanistan. And Afghan people want democracy and they've been fighting for that, like without even questioning that.

• 21:54Fran Racioppi?

  When nine eleven happened and Afghanistan became in the bull's eye of the United States, what was the sentiment of the Afghan people? How did they feel?

• 22:06Speaker 02

  I was very young at that time. I can tell you about my own family and you know Afghan families are big families. We have uncles, aunts, we all live together. And when the nine eleven happened, even before nine eleven, there would be some political discussions in our house, like today it's this age, I talk to my brother about certain situations going on. So the same thing would happen in our house, like my dad, my uncles, my cousins, and they would talk about the situation. And I would hear, like, it's a very honest thing that even in nineteen ninety seven,

• 22:46Speaker 02

  ninety eight, I was very young at that time, like sixth or fifth grade of school. Well, I remember when they were talking, they would like, "We wish the Americans would turn their eye on Afghanistan, open eye, and we wish that they will get involved with Afghanistan." And then when the nine eleven happened, it was evening in the shower, getting dark, close to dark. I switched the TV. Normally, we would come from work and school. I was working too beside the school, was seventeen or eighteen years old. And then I saw that it had a PTV.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  There was a television called PTV. And then a couple hours a day, they would bring the feed from BBC and CNN. And then I see CNN and they are airing the picture, some smoke coming up from the building. So I, at that time, I could speak English. So I was taking English courses and classes. And I called or shout on my dad, I said, "Dad." Can you come and check this? What the hell is going on? And he's like, yeah, what's going on? I said, some smoke is coming from these buildings. Then he read the headlines and says, Americans are attacked. And immediately after, like in first couple of minutes,

• 24:15Speaker 02

  he said, Americans are coming to Afghanistan. This will bring Americans to Afghanistan. And because they were saying it's a terrorist attack, they were mentioning al Qaeda. We all knew that Osama was in Afghanistan and his association with the Taliban being an umbrella for the terrorists in Afghanistan. So that was the thing. And then immediately after the attacks, it became more clear and we all knew that Americans will attack the terrorists. And October, they started the campaign. And then it was with the start, the launch of the campaign, we had some other relatives who came from Afghanistan to our house in Peshawar.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  And we had a lot of guests in those days, like for a month or two, until the whole situation was under control in Afghanistan and they left back. Everybody was excited, to be honest. I remember in those days, Americans were dropping some food and some clothes and some logistics from air to those remote areas that people could not have access to food and water. Those had some positive effects. And I remember people were receiving that positively in most parts, especially in my family. And like, we're a big family. And whoever I knew, they were happy.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  And then when we came to Kabul in May 2002, our relatives from Helmand. So I'm originally from Helmand. I'm from Zemindawar. And our tribe and our relatives would come from Helmand. And I never heard anything negative about Americans at those days. And they would come and stayed at our home for days. Because it's like a kind of culture that if you are living in a city like Kabul and some people comes from Helmand, there's no hotel system. They just go and live for a couple of days or a few days with some relatives or the people they know. And they would go for their medical checkups and stuff.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  So these are the things that... And then the Kabul people. I started going to school in Kabul, started going to take more computer and English classes and courses. And then we had classmates. People were exciting. They thought there are dozens and tons of opportunities for them. And the girls were going, our classmates in English classes. And then, yeah, everything was going so much good for a couple of years, peaceful. We would drive from Kabul all the way to Helmand without being questioned or stopped. And then in 2004, it just started to become another problem.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  And it started with some suicide attacks inside Kabul city, Kandahar. And yeah, these two cities were the main victims of suicide and VBID attacks. And then some movements of Taliban started in Kunar, in eastern Afghanistan, in Zabel province, in Panjwai and Jirai district of Kandahar, Musakkala of Helmand. I remember that the government was newly formed and the first election was just finished. And then we had a new army, the first battalion graduated in 2003, I guess.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  And there was a loya jirga for constitution and they were deployed to secure the loya jirga. And we only had battalion of Afghan National Army at that time.

• 28:06Fran Racioppi?

  Because prior to that, there was no armed horses.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  No, there was not. Mujahideen, the Northern Alliance and different other groups that were the opposition for Taliban, they existed. Then, once the Americans came to Afghanistan, the interim government during those days, there was no army. So they all switched to become local police kind of staff. That created a lot of problems too, but this is what it is. We didn't have any trained force or army to professionally take care of the country. So everything started from scratch. And the KMTC Kabul Military Training Center was established in, I think it was 2002.

• 28:49Fran Racioppi?

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• 29:21Fran Racioppi?

  Did the sentiment change over time? And the feelings towards the Americans being there change over time within the populace?

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Here's the thing. No one would tell you in front of you in Afghanistan that he doesn't like you.

• 29:37Fran Racioppi?

  That's almost anywhere in the world.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  But based on my family, family members, and then the people I was engaging with, like at one point, I was engaging with hundreds of people every day when I raised to higher commands. The level of hatred to Americans were less than the level of hope and the level of support to the Americans. That kind of environment made us, the Afghan government and the American side, too proud not to be careful with the Taliban propaganda machine, which was a small bite of a bigger ocean.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  And that affected us negatively a lot.

• 30:30Fran Racioppi?

  The Taliban propaganda.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Taliban propaganda.

• 30:33Fran Racioppi?

  And what was their propaganda? What was it saying and who were they trying to influence?

• 30:38Speaker 02

  First, their part of their propaganda was brutality. They started with chopping heads in two thousand and three and four. Like they would, hey, they would put a checkpoint on Highway one, Kandahar, Kabul, and they would search for any documents that shows if a person is related to the government or multiple cases. Especially when I was police and we were interrogating cases and I was interrogator too for some time and arresting these Taliban elements. They would even just arrest a civilian if they would not find government official.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  And they would put a mark on them saying, you are spying for Americans or spying for the Afghan government. And they would just chop their heads. And that brutality was the start of their propaganda. And then the second thing was their business, the puppy business, the narcotics business. And it started from southwest in my province, Helmand, Kandahar, Orisga, Zabu. And then they influenced people. Because you know, in those remote areas, faraway villages, there is, there is new

• 32:03Speaker 02

  government after almost ten years of civil war or more than that. And then people, there is lack of schools, lack of access to the media, radios, everything is so limited there. So when the campaign against the narcotics starts in Afghanistan and the puppy fields were being destroyed, the Taliban were like, oh, you see? These are Americans and they are destroying your fields. So that was, we as a government at that time, we were newborn children.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  If I can say that, like it was a year old new government after ten years of civil war without an army, okay? And then this was the second thing, that helped the Taliban to recruit more people in their side. And the mistake of our government, plus the overall NATO and American approach was that we could not offer something that could replace the puppy fields into some income stream to the farmers in those provinces. And there is no other business in those provinces.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  They have gardens, they grow fruits, they grow vegetables, and the puppies became popular during the first Taliban term. So if we would be able to offer something better, it would not be helping Taliban at all. And then Afghan forces not being trained enough to go after the specific key Taliban leaders or Al Qaeda or other terrorist networks. So it was totally American-led or NATO-led operations. And then that would be misused by the Taliban, like, hey, you see these guys? They are coming to your villages?

• 34:06Speaker 02

  They would not say they are coming after one individual who is a highly demanded terrorist or highly wanted terrorist. And they would say, they are entering your homes without knocking. So again, lack of education, lack of access to electricity, lack of access to the media, social media, understanding the whole context of what terrorism is, not understanding what that really would affect the life of Afghans. They all were, became strength points to the Taliban and weak points to us. And the big cities, and even in villages associated to the cities and districts, there was no opposition for Americans at that time. And twenty years is a long time.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  If you make it months, it will be hundreds of months. And if you make it weeks, it will be thousands of weeks or days. And every day, they were moving very slow strategically. And they were trying to eat us from inside. And our side, we were trying to ignore that. We were too much into the nation building, democracy and Afghanistan. Internal political problems between the warlords and the leaders and the elections and stuff like that grabbed the attention from something very fundamental that should have been considered during the, even the interim government.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Like using the forces, Afghans made a few mistakes, but it was being put onto the media and social media and to the brains of people 10 times larger scale to make them against us. There would be a problem in the north of Afghanistan that a warlord arrests a person mistakenly or deliberately and puts a name like, oh, you are terrorist or you are Taliban, you are Al Qaeda. Or someone would be arrested in Kandahar or Herat or Nangarhar and east of, or Kunur. And then that one single problem that we never wanted to talk about because we were doing a thousand good things.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  So we were like, don't worry about that one thing. And that one thing became a nightmare by days passing, months passing, weeks passing and years passing. So it was a very long term strategic move for Taliban. And that supported their propaganda machine against us. And at one point, when we really understood that what really is going on, it was a bit too late for us. So we needed to do some crazy things to shift the mindset of people towards our side, but we could not have that opportunity.

• 36:57Fran Racioppi?

  Well, they waited us out.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:59Fran Racioppi?

  Essentially. When you look at Afghanistan today, what's the level of support internally for the Taliban?

• 37:05Speaker 02

  So here's the point. Let me put it into a formula. Twenty years. The size of the Afghan Armed Forces. Minimum, it started from seventy thousand. It grew up all the way to three hundred and fifty thousand people. Every three years, we were doing signing contracts for the soldiers. Some would renew, some would leave. So in twenty years, we had six to seven terms of A and D S F recruitment in Afghanistan. A normal Afghan family is five to ten people. So if we were able to recruit around two million Afghans only to the Armed Forces, police, intelligence, army, local forces.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  If they have five family members, it would be ten million people. Two million times in five, ten million people. If it was ten million people, it was the whole population of Afghanistan that were being fed from the resources that were flowing into Afghanistan to support the counterterrorism mission in Afghanistan. I'm not talking about the whole government, which was a million employees, civilians, engineers, doctors, Afghans, and they all had family members. So Taliban might be one or two percent of Afghanistan.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  And at that point, and still, they have not grown up a lot. What helps you grow up? If you offer jobs? If you offer good lifestyle for the people? Electricity, healthcare, security, honor? None of them are being offered by Taliban nowadays. Right now, people are suffering from healthcare problems. People are suffering with their agriculture situation. People are suffering with education. There is no work opportunities. Economy is declining.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Every single day, people have become more poor. All their savings that they made in 20 years, not only in the cities, but also in remote areas too, and faraway districts, they have spent all their resources. So it has not helped Taliban a lot. The only thing they are still doing is brutality. They're just, they're same like Iranian current regime, just telling people without a reason, or punishing people, or torturing people without a reason.

• 39:44Fran Racioppi?

  Did we leave it better than we found it?

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Yes. Why? Before US came to Afghanistan, there was 10 years of civil war. The Mujahideen and the Taliban, it was a civil war. There was no economy. In 20 years, we were able to establish banking system in Afghanistan. Okay, that's the fundamental part of a country, economy. There was no schools, especially for girls, no teachers. Everybody who were living in Iran and Pakistan, in the West even, they came back to Afghanistan post 2001, and they start to become teachers, professors in the schools, in the colleges, in the universities. So education wise, we got better.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  Security wise, there was militiaism, individualism, warlordism in Afghanistan before that. Even Taliban were warlords. And post 2001, there was a regular army in Afghanistan. We established a police force that could apply law enforcement into the communities. We had intelligence organizations. We had attorneys. We had court system. You may remember, when we were going out on night raids, we would have a package for that. The information would come from the source,

• 41:16Speaker 02

  and then it would be analyzed, and it would become a targeting package. And then after the package is actionable, the whole package would go to the attorney and to the Supreme Court. And we had specific offices, they would authorize the operation.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  We would never go and enter a house without the permission of the court back in the days. Now compare that with Taliban. They are bringing people to the sports stadium and they are stoning them. They are hanging again right now, like just one last year, they have hanged dozens of people, stoned dozen of people, like who the hell has given them the authority? Like every soldier of Taliban, he's a police, he's a judge, he is an intelligence. He has some miracles that allows him to understand that this person is a criminal, that person is not a criminal. So everybody has, like even in Mujahideen time, warlords. We had warlords, five, 10 people.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Now we have thousands of warlords in Afghanistan. Every Taliban soldier and commander has become a warlord. They have the authority to take the decision to arrest a man, a woman, a child, put them in prison, stone them, hang them, torture them. In first time they did this, now they are doing it. So we were not allowing this. Yeah, initially in first days, we made some mistakes, but with every day we were maintaining it. Like you build a house and it needs maintenance. There is some leakages, there is some electricity problems, it needs a bulb. You do that all the time.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Nothing is perfect in this world, but we were learning and we were reforming. Now what's happening and before us, what was happening? Then there was democracy. We had a president elected. We had a parliament that was representing the Afghan local population. We had members of parliament, we had senators now who is representing the people.

• 43:29Fran Racioppi?

  What do you say to the American soldier? You know, these conversations are out there, we've had them on the show. Where there's a lot of folks who served in Afghanistan.

• 43:42Fran Racioppi?

  Who have had to ask themselves the question of was it worth it? What did we gain? What did America get from being there for 20 years? When Afghanistan today looks very similar to the way it did prior to nine 11. What do you say to that American soldier, many of whom you know and still see and communicate with and live here amongst? What do you say to them when that thought comes into their mind?

• 44:13Speaker 02

  If I say it in one word, yes, but I want to add some points into that. I remember Mike Spain, who was the first American soldier. Doesn't matter if he was DOD, intelligence, whatever, but he was a soldier who got killed by al Qaeda in Afghanistan, first American. And I remember the last American who got killed and his name was Mike Two. He was seventh group and we were together on an operation in 2019, December. And a week later, in Imam Sahib of Kunduz, this was one of the last side by side partnered

• 44:55Speaker 02

  operations between Afghans and Americans in Kunduz Imam Sahib. He was struck with a roadside anti-personnel mine and he lost his life. I went to section 60 in Arlington cemetery and I checked on his grave. But the point is between these two people, I'm not talking about the 13th of Abigat, we lost thousands of people and all those lives were dedicated to support the humanity, support the democracy, the right way. We were always standing in the right side. We did what we were supposed to do together.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Afghans, we lost around 100,000 soldiers in the global war on terrorism and around 100,000 more wounded, some has lost their parts of bodies like hands, eyes, legs, the same to the American side and some NATO. The point is, I would ask this question from both politicians, Afghans and Americans, like what they think about this? Because we are representing democracy and we were fighting for democracy. What do they think about all these casualties? Was they went in vain? Or was that for something?

• 46:20Speaker 02

  If that was for something, why are we here now? Have we left something undone, unfinished? Or this is the end? And how will we perform as soldiers in the future? To the values? And how will we be able to define these to other partners and allies? Soldiers did their job. You did your job, I did my job. We knew exactly what, who the enemy is. What should we do with them? We brought the democracy, we fought for the democracy, education, schools. Again, elections, financial system, armed forces, Afghan passports everywhere.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Now we have nothing. I have a passport, it's like a notebook. I cannot fly with that anywhere. I cannot get a visa with that anywhere. So, we did a lot. We achieved a lot. It's like you build a house. It's a term from one of my really good friends, Peterson. But I'm gonna use this. He always says like, Afghanistan was like a house. You spend a million dollar on building that? And then you give up on maintaining that. Like, few bucks a week? Or a couple hundred bucks a month? It needs a bulb, it needs some small maintenance. And we just left it. We did not leave it.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  The politicians decided to leave that. And I think it's not smart move. If you spend that amount of money or something, like an investment, you should keep it. Afghanistan is a rich country, you know? We have trillions of dollars of rare earth minerals. That right now, our adversaries are looking to loot without the permission of Afghan people. And there are Chinese, Russians, companies there that are trying to take off the lithium. The gold is being looted right now, at this moment, right now. In northeast of Afghanistan, in Badakshan and Tahrar.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  By Chinese. So why we spend billions of dollars that we could not keep it? Like, we should find a way to bring, finish the unfinished business. And I think leaving it just like that to the people that never, ever lost a single man in the war against the terrorism, which is the enemy of humanity. We were defending the entire world from terrorists for 20 years. Give me one example. In US, in 20 years that we were fighting the terrorists, something went wrong based on the terrorist background, nothing.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  As soon as we left, al-Zawahiri shows up in Green Zone of Kabul. Could he come there? You're a soft guy. I'm a soft guy. They could never come. They could never even come too close to the borders. Now, from there, from Afghanistan, from parts of Pakistan and from that region, they are deterring here, right now. We saw some of those indications in last couple of years here in this country. It will raise more and more. So we did our job, but some stuff has to be done. And it totally work that to not to leave the mission in the middle. Aborting the mission will not help us.

• 49:59Fran Racioppi?

  Can Afghanistan be reclaimed from the Taliban today?

• 50:03Speaker 02

  10 times easier than 2001. It's a different world now. There was no social media at that time. If something would happen in eastern Afghanistan in 1996 or 1997, people would not find out in Herat in west of Afghanistan. Today, it's a matter of seconds and minutes. So everybody know how the Taliban are treating the Afghan people, the Afghan economy. They have destroyed the Afghan history and honor both. Look, what better has Taliban done to Afghan people

• 50:46Speaker 02

  in last five years than the ISIS didn't do in Syria and Iraq? Beating women, go and check the Afghan history. No one used to hit somebody else's wife, daughter in front of his family in our entire history. That's something that no Afghan likes. But what has Taliban done? You have seen the videos, I will send you videos. They have been beating women on the streets. In 1995, all the way to 2006, 2001, they were doing the same thing, but people didn't have access to know their brutal actions.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Now, every single Afghan knows what they're, how they are damaging the Afghan honor. We have a rich history. Second thing, another thing is economy. People are just starving right now. This winter, we saw a week of snow in Afghanistan. People lost their lives, and that's because of Taliban. We touch base on their court system, warlordism system. So you think Afghans are going to support those things if Taliban are doing? They are just looking for the right people? Afghans are just looking for the right people? Because some of us in our government

• 52:17Speaker 02

  became so much corrupt that the Afghan people would not trust anymore. So they need the right people to step in and they will be with them. And Taliban are much more ten times vulnerable than 2001. And I think Afghan people will blow up on them soon. And anybody who gives a little bit of support to Afghan people, to the right Afghan people, I think it will be achievable to take back Afghanistan from Taliban in lesser time, lesser energy, less casualties and less resources. Ten times vulnerable Taliban are ten times cheaper

• 53:00Speaker 02

  to be thrown back compared to 2001.

• 53:04Fran Racioppi?

  In August of 2021, you sent your family out of the country. You left the country in the evacuation in the final days of the month and you found yourself here in the United States. And it's been four and a half years or so since you've seen your family. How hard is that?

• 53:28Speaker 02

  It is hard. None of us is made of steel, really. We all have, we create our families to live with. And every person has emotions. But the point is that on the first day when I joined the armed forces and my dad told me like, hey, you have to have a steel ass. I was like, oh, yeah. And I was expecting worse than this. I could have died in the war. Several times I got ambushed, got struck by IEDs, blown off my head, but I made it. So I know a lot of soldiers that they are not with us today

• 54:13Speaker 02

  and their families are suffering. They have, especially Afghans, they have the hardest time ever. They are financially struggling. Security wise, they are struggling. Their kids cannot go to school. So that makes me more and more motivated, not to only think about my own family, but about the whole country's situation. And why I'm saying this, like, remember JJ Jasper, General Jaspers? He came to Afghanistan once in 2018, and General Miller was there too. There was some religious day, and every year there would be suicide attacks in Kabul.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  And General Miller is new, and not new in Afghanistan, but new in the new command. And he's like, I don't want any explosions, especially it's my first month or week. And me and JJ, we all sit together, and we drafted a plan and established CaseHawk and stuff like. To be honest, in these days, I was living in PD9, just close to the Green Zone, close to the Shahr Darakh area. And every week, we had a suicide attack just in front of the Shahr Darakh, on the road, in front of our building, apartment building. At one point, like every day, my son would go to school early in the morning, like 7:30, and the driver would take him to school.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  And then five minutes early or five minutes later, there would be an explosion once a week. And I was like, should I wait for this guy who I know that is sending these suicide bombers? And what if I lose my son one day in these explosions, in these explosions? And JJ may remember that. I was like, hey, guys, I'm gonna plan going into Tangi Valley with Afghan Special Forces. And that's how I wanted to go and take care of that guy there in his safe haven, to stop sending terrorists to Kabul for attacks.

• 56:28Speaker 02

  It's a little bit different situation, but same context. I can make a good life for myself with my family. If I'm in US or outside US, it doesn't matter. But I can do that if I think about myself. But I cannot do that. I will show you my phone. There's a lot of messages. You will see that. Right now, it's over a hundred thousand in boxes. And only on my WhatsApp that I'm receiving from widows of the armed forces, from the children that their fathers lost their lives under my command or in the armed forces. Since I used to be the last commanding general of Afghan army, so they call me.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  And the soldiers, the officers, the young officers, the NCOs, surgeons. They're like, sir, we need this, we need that. Also, it's not easy for me to switch off the phone and just get rid of that. So I'm busy with this. To be honest, I have forgotten about my own personal life. I'm pretty sure my wife may watch this and she would not appreciate this. But this is a situation that this is a worse, the most worse situation. A leader, any leader, lower level, higher level in the world could be in this situation. That you have people that has expectations from you, but you are not able to offer anything.

• 57:57Speaker 02

  That's the most hardest part for me. But I've never been at home, always deployed. I remember when I got engaged, the next day I was back in the mission. I remember I got married. I stayed at home for less than a week and I got deployed. I remember my wife gave birth to my twins on August 5th, 2015, 8:00 a.m. And I left Afghanistan for UK Staff College the same day at around 12:00 p.m., like four hours later. I was away for a couple of years, came back,

• 58:39Speaker 02

  got deployed in JSOC missions, different positions, always. Only I had my family with me. When I was in Mazar Sharif, I was a commander there and I had my family and kids with me. And we always talk about that. This is the life of a soldier, brother. You had multiple deployments. Our other folks had the same thing. Yeah, it is difficult, but we have to fight it. We cannot live away from family forever. That's a for sure thing. But just trying to fix my problem and some other people's problem too in the meantime, if I could.

• 59:20Fran Racioppi?

  What's next for Afghanistan? The Taliban is, they're in charge. They're recognized as the government. And there's 100,000 plus Afghans who've been brought to the US. There's 100,000s more across the world who were evacuated from Afghanistan in 2021 and continue to be so today. Everybody, the Afghan population, lives in fear. The Taliban is out across the world forging alliances with our enemies, America's enemies, to fortify their own existence. What's next in Afghanistan?

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  Next is change. It has to happen. If that doesn't happen, it would have brutal effects on the great game, great world order, on great world economy, politics. Because look at the situation. Follow the situation since Afghanistan collapsed. Look at the American position, the Western position and the global context after the collapse happened in Afghanistan. It's been being damaged. Everybody is trying to recover that. But it's not easy. It's becoming more and more expensive.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  Energy wise, resources wise, and it's expanding every day. So wherever the problem started, it needs to be fixed there first. If we don't fix Afghanistan and we took over dozens of other countries, still people will have something in the back of their mind like, "What happened to Afghanistan?" It will be a question that will bring hesitation in partnerships, alliances. But if Afghanistan is fixed again and we all accept our mistakes, which is normal, we are human. Nothing is perfect in this world. And we say, "Okay, whatever happened, now we're gonna fix this."

• 1:01:29Speaker 02

  We will be back in a better situation, even better than 2001, together. I believe that change is required immediately before it's too late. As you mentioned, our adversaries, the people who are looting my country, I don't consider them friend either. Yeah, they could be our neighbors, but not friends. The point is, they are teaming up against all of us. And they are making it difficult, complicated, expensive for us. So before it goes more complicated, before it becomes more expensive,

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  I believe there's a lot of potential to solve that Afghan problem and Afghanistan's problem, which is not only an Afghanistan problem now. I remember in 2018, when I was here in US for some school, and one of the, one of my instructors told me like, "Hey, do you know this? If something changes in Afghanistan, policy wise, it will affect the whole world." And I was like, "What the hell is he talking about?" And then when the collapse happened... And I'm now, I'm looking at the four and a half years or almost five years. It's been the same thing.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  What happened in Africa? What happened in South America, Central America, in Middle East? October 7th, the Iran thing. Look at the Pakistan situation. Look at the Central Asia. One day, we were the gate guards for the entire world plus that region. We were defending the other people's borders from being affected by the global terrorism. Now Pakistan has become a victim more seriously than ever. Iran, same way you will see. Very soon, there will be terrorist activities.

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  And Central Asia is already complaining. They even attacked Moscow a couple of times. Tajikistan borders are not safe now. So the whole point is that Afghanistan problem is still pretty easy, pretty cost efficient to be fixed with less energy and less resources. But every day passes, it becomes more and more and more difficult. And the change has to come. We have enough people, right people, to run the country. They're not warlords. They're not criminals. They're not terrorists. They're not corrupt.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  They're the young generation of Afghanistan that were recruited, trained, and 20 years. Every single day, we all worked on every single individual. 20 years old now became 40 years old. And they're in the right age to take the responsibility of the country and run the country based on the global standards. And I think that's what exactly the Afghan people want. And that's what exactly the democratic world want.

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  I believe we are just a whistle away from bringing the change in Afghanistan.

• 1:05:04Fran Racioppi?

  Can the change be brought without America?

• 1:05:07Speaker 02

  Yes, but there could be a definition for that. How can that change come in Afghanistan without America? We have given America our options. But even in that change that comes without America, there will be American support. Nothing is totally independent, and we all know. Like, some Afghans take it like, oh, why should we work with this country or that country? But you know, which country in the world can do everything by their own? Every country is tied to another country based on deals

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  and based on the global law and order and system. So no one can do everything. Like Taliban are trying to act. They are doing everything by their own and they are taking the country into a hell. So, no. There is a way, but there is not a way to, without American help, specifically American help.

• 1:06:13Fran Racioppi?

  It's a complex problem.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:06:16Fran Racioppi?

  And it's gonna take some clandestine capabilities, I think, across the entire international force to do what you're talking about. And any sort of Taliban controlled the country. And it's gonna come down to international will, international power. And ultimately, every country's desire to decide if that's within their national interest. And I think that for you, for your family, for all the other Afghans in the situation, for the Americans who served in Afghanistan and all of those who've been affected by that conflict, these are the things they wrestle with every day.

• 1:06:59Fran Racioppi?

  We see a lot and we hear a lot of people out there and they tell their war stories and they talk about what should be and what can be. And, you know, they pontificate about, you know, all the rights and wrongs. I appreciate coming here today and talking about the issues, the root cause, where we've come from, where it is today, and where it needs to be. So, thank you for your perspective. Thanks for welcoming us to your home. Thanks for being in America. There's a lot of places in the world that are nice. There's a lot of places in the world that take people in. I hope that in this difficult time for you and your family,

• 1:07:43Fran Racioppi?

  as Ronald Reagan said in one of his last speeches, I hope that you've had an opportunity to understand what it's like to not only be in America, but to be an American. And I know that at your first chance, you'll hop back on that plane and go back to Afghanistan. But while you're here, thank you and welcome.

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. Thank you for the, all the sacrifices, all the investments that American people and taxpayers did in Afghanistan. Thanks for creating a government from scratch to being a government. Thanks for making Afghans open their eyes and look to the world from a different lens today. And I can assure you, brother, I don't want to talk a lot about what really happened in Afghanistan history because I don't want to give more hard time to these leaders. We don't have time for that. But one thing is, Afghanistan is a rich country.

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  Rich with resources, rich with the culture, rich with the history, and rich with the promises. We look at every deal from Afghan perspective. Some people call it Pashtunwali, some call it Afghanwali. And we look at every deal with America from that lens. We can become very close allies and partners that...

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  Most Afghans and most Americans would ever dream for. And that is a necessary and must thing that should happen. To honor our lost ones, their families, they may watch this show. Their kids that might have raised now, they may have questions. That would be the biggest thing we would do for both countries' relationships. We are going to earn that deal by the cost of blood in 50 years. And it is our rights as Afghans to be partnered with Americans in every field in the future.

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  And it's Americans' right to have Afghans in their side or under their wing for next 100 years at their close allies and partners in that region, based on the blood we both share and the resources you shared and invested in Afghanistan. So, thank you again. Thanks for having me on your show. And I love my country. I love America too. I am always telling people like, I should be in Afghanistan, if not in US. So it's another home now, and I really respect the hospitality here,

• 1:10:38Speaker 02

  the generosity of American people that all Afghans faced in last four or five years or throughout the history. And we remember the good things happens to us and same way that we remember bad things happens to us. So, thank you so much, brother.

• 1:10:56Fran Racioppi?

  Thank you.

• 1:10:59Fran Racioppi?

  American Jed Berks went on to form the foundation of the United States Special Forces and the Special Activities Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Thanks for listening to the Jed Burke Podcast, an official program of the Green Beret Foundation. I'm your creator and host, Fran Rycho. Join us next week for a new episode on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check us out on YouTube for full episodes, highlights, and other long and short form content. If you like what you heard, give us a like and leave a review. Follow the Jedburgh Podcast and the Green Beret Foundation on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Extra Threads. Send your comments and inquiries to [email protected]. As former members of Special Operations Forces, the Jedburgh Media Channel and the Green Beret Foundation remain committed to supporting all generations of U.S. Army Special Forces and their families.

• 1:11:43Fran Racioppi?

  Thanks for joining us on this episode. How you prepare today determines success tomorrow.