Cody Ko On Building A YouTube Empire, Partying With Elon & Stand-Up Comedy

Episode 503: Shaan Puri (https://twitter.com/ShaanVP) sits down with Cody Ko (https://twitter.com/codyko) to talk about building the viral app I’d Cap That, his +$1M YouTube empire & partying with Elon Musk. Looking for episode 502? Check out Shaan’s Reaction to the Linda Yaccarin Interview on YouTube. Want to see more MFM? Subscribe to our YouTube channel here. Want MFM Merch? Check out our store here. Want to see the best clips from MFM? Subscribe to our clips channel here. — Check Out Shaan's Stuff: • Try Shepherd Out - https://www.supportshepherd.com/ • Shaan's Personal Assistant System - http://shaanpuri.com/remoteassistant • Power Writing Course - https://maven.com/generalist/writing • Small Boy Newsletter - https://smallboy.co/ • Daily Newsletter - https://www.shaanpuri.com/ Check Out Sam's Stuff: • Hampton - https://www.joinhampton.com/ • Ideation Bootcamp - https://www.ideationbootcamp.co/ • Copy That - https://copythat.com/ — Show Notes: (0:00) Intro (2:00) I’d Cap That hits #1 in the App Store (9:00) App developer to content creator (13:00) 1M views overnight (17:00) How to crush live shows (23:00) Get better at your craft (36:00) Tiny Beat Gang and making music videos (44:00) Frozen S’mores, Shark Tank for Creators, AI Thumbnail app (51:00) Going to Elon Musk’s house party — Links: • Vine - https://vine.co/ • Cody Ko YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/c/codyko • That’s Cringe - https://tinyurl.com/2adyejay • Cody’s Run Club - https://www.ko-official.com/ • Living with a Seal - https://tinyurl.com/wdjkj2je • Marquis Jetset - https://www.marquisjetset.com/ • Tiny Meat Gang - Keep Ya D*ck Fat (OFFICIAL VIDEO) - https://tinyurl.com/559w6pve • Tiny Meat Gang - Super Xan (OFFICIAL VIDEO) - https://tinyurl.com/57ks7yat • Tiny Meat Gang - Broke B*tch - https://tinyurl.com/pz8jya2p Past guests on My First Million include Rob Dyrdek, Hasan Minhaj, Balaji Srinivasan, Jake Paul, Dr. Andrew Huberman, Gary Vee, Lance Armstrong, Sophia Amoruso, Ariel Helwani, Ramit Sethi, Stanley Druckenmiller, Peter Diamandis, Dharmesh Shah, Brian Halligan, Marc Lore, Jason Calacanis, Andrew Wilkinson, Julian Shapiro, Kat Cole, Codie Sanchez, Nader Al-Naji, Steph Smith, Trung Phan, Nick Huber, Anthony Pompliano, Ben Askren, Ramon Van Meer, Brianne Kimmel, Andrew Gazdecki, Scott Belsky, Moiz Ali, Dan Held, Elaine Zelby, Michael Saylor, Ryan Begelman, Jack Butcher, Reed Duchscher, Tai Lopez, Harley Finkelstein, Alexa von Tobel, Noah Kagan, Nick Bare, Greg Isenberg, James Altucher, Randy Hetrick and more. — Other episodes you might enjoy: • #224 Rob Dyrdek - How Tracking Every Second of His Life Took Rob Drydek from 0 to $405M in Exits • #209 Gary Vaynerchuk - Why NFTS Are the Future • #178 Balaji Srinivasan - Balaji on How to Fix the Media, Cloud Cities & Crypto • #169 - How One Man Started 5, Billion Dollar Companies, Dan Gilbert's Empire, & Talking With Warren Buffett • ​​​​#218 - Why You Should Take a Think Week Like Bill Gates • Dave Portnoy vs The World, Extreme Body Monitoring, The Future of Apparel Retail, "How Much is Anthony Pompliano Worth?", and More • How Mr Beast Got 100M Views in Less Than 4 Days, The $25M Chrome Extension, and More

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Shaan Puri?

  What three creators do you see that you think could become billionaires? He's like, Mr. Beast, Dude Perfect, or something like that? And then he said you.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  No way.

• 0:07Speaker 02

  Cody Co. Cody Co. Cody Co. Cody is popping off. Algorithm has shined upon him. Cody is one of the biggest YouTubers on the platform.

• 0:17Shaan Puri?

  How did you get good at doing what you do?

• 0:19Speaker 01

  If you go and listen to my first episode of my podcast, it was complete garbage. If I'm thinking about like what makes a good podcast, or what makes a good YouTube video, or what makes a good song? The number one thing you can do is-

• 0:31Shaan Puri?

  How much are you thinking about like the business side of what you do?

• 0:34Speaker 01

  About being a billionaire? When I was younger, it was like literally just about the creative. But now that I'm getting older, it's like I want the business to succeed.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  And then he looks at his phone, and he's like, Elon's been texting me. And then he showed us his phone, and it was like Elon Musk, who was like, come over. He was like, should we go over to his house? Yeah, I mean, you can't really say no to that. And so we got in cars and drove to his house. We got to his house and him and Grimes are like standing on the driveway with lanterns. Like, welcome to-

• 1:00Shaan Puri?

  Why? That's insane. What's he like?

• 1:02Speaker 01

  Like, it was one of those things where we-

• 1:12Speaker 01

  By the way, I listen, I listen, this is like one of my favorite podcasts.

• 1:15Shaan Puri?

  Oh, hell yeah.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  So it's an honor to be on it.

• 1:17Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  Cause I, it's one of two that I listen to.

• 1:20Shaan Puri?

  That's not even sponsored. That was amazing.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I'm serious. So like when you hit me up, I was like, let's go. I mean, it's all in.

• 1:26Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Obviously, but-

• 1:28Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, it's like, they're good too. I like them too.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you guys, I just switched between you guys. And in How I Built This.

• 1:35Shaan Puri?

  And you, so you listen to the pods, you kind of know the vibe. And so I invited you to come on, uh, did you think about like? What are we gonna, like, cause it's different than our normal episodes.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:45Shaan Puri?

  Sam's not here. Second, you're like cool entertainment guy, and we're usually like nerdy tech guys. What'd you think was gonna happen on that section?

• 1:55Speaker 01

  I don't know. But I, like, being the guest on a podcast is so much better than being the host of one.

• 2:00Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Cause like, it's like, that's your, that's up to you. Yeah, the pressure's on you. I can just sit here and answer questions, you know?

• 2:07Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, good. Okay, well, that's what we're gonna do. But the, actually, the interesting thing is you actually started as kind of nerdy tech guy too.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  I did, yeah.

• 2:12Shaan Puri?

  You were, uh, I think like an iOS dev?

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:15Shaan Puri?

  And- Let's start there. So the origin story is you, uh, you go to Duke and you, you make a viral app at one point. I don't know if we were at school or right after school.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  It was, I was during college.

• 2:28Shaan Puri?

  During college.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  I was, uh.

• 2:30Shaan Puri?

  What did it actually do? So I know it was called Cap That or I Cap That?

• 2:33Speaker 01

  I'd Cap That.

• 2:34Shaan Puri?

  I'd Cap That.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35Shaan Puri?

  What was the app?

• 2:36Speaker 01

  A very funny name, by the way.

• 2:37Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  So it was like, I was a senior in college and I was on the diving team all four years. So like, didn't have, like in the summers and stuff, I was just training. And so I never did an internship. I didn't have any resume by the time I was a senior and all these, all my like peers were doing internships and they had jobs lined up for as soon as they graduated. I didn't, I had nothing. And that kind of scared me because I'm Canadian and I wanted to stay in the States. So I needed a visa, which means I needed a job and also just like needed money and stuff for when I graduated. I was like, what the fuck am I gonna do? So I was studying computer science at that time. And they didn't have an iOS class, but I was like, I was obsessed with my phone, obviously. And

• 3:21Speaker 01

  I was like, I really want to know how to make an app. So I just bought a book, taught myself. And then like, you know, the way you really teach yourself something is you sure you can like read and watch YouTube videos, but like it's by, you know, thinking of a project and then trying to make it come to life. So that was my project. There was one that did something similar, but it was a paid app. And I was like, oh, this is a perfect opportunity because it's not a hard idea.

• 3:43Shaan Puri?

  And what was the idea? So you're captioning?

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, basically it was like.

• 3:46Shaan Puri?

  Or like as a meme, meme generator?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Basically, yeah. It was like you would select a picture from your library or take a picture. And then it would, it had like an internal database of funny captions that we all just like got drunk and came up with. And so it would automatically apply one to the picture in white font, but like, all the captions were sort of general enough where people thought there was like AI going on.

• 4:08Shaan Puri?

  Like what's an example? Like what do you mean?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Like, like, I don't know, a super one, uh, I guess a stupid one would be like, you'd take a picture of someone in here and it'd be like addicted to cocaine or something like that. And people would see that and be like, oh, he is. That's so true. He does look like a coke head. And so it, and, okay, so then, the way I got it to spread is it got rejected by the Apple Review, you know, board or whatever, multiple times. And so I was like, for being inappropriate. So I was like, hey, I can't make this app clean, because then it's not funny. Right. And it won't do anything. So I basically had the, I wrote some code so that the internal database was timed, because I knew the app review process took like a week. Right.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  So then, basically, after seven days, it would release all the dirty captions. So I got by the Apple Review system. Amazing. And then everyone was like, oh, my God, this app is so wild. Like, look at this, there's like swear words in it. And it just blew up. It was the number one app in the App Store. You're just on campus. Above like eBay and Google, and it was number one, and I paid $0 for marketing. Right. And I'm on campus, like, I don't know what to do. Because I know I should be making money from this, but I'm not, and I have no idea how to make money, or anything about business. And I was talking to my friend, I was like, what do I do? And he was like, dude, you should like sell ads. And I was like, I don't know. How do I even start to do that? Right.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Like, I didn't know the first thing about setting up like a ad SDK or anything. And so... And you also kind of know your shelf life, like, you know, every day that you're the top is great. Exactly. And it might not be the case 100 days from now when I figure this out. And when you blow up that fast, the graph goes the other way just as quick. Right. So I was stressing on what to do, and I got an email from a CEO of a startup in Palo Alto. And he was like, hey, saw your app, I love it, I want to hire you and buy the app. And I was like, perfect. That worked out. So I took a trip to Palo Alto, which was cool for me, because like, growing up, you know, being obsessed with Apple and Steve Jobs, I was like, Silicon Valley is like a dream, that's where I'd want to end up. Is this it? This is the app?

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yes, this is it. Oh, amazing. No, this is, I'd cap that to the sequel. So like when this company.

• 6:24Shaan Puri?

  I was surprised you didn't go with like dose or something.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  I know, right? Did I tell you this on on my podcast? Okay, when so I I took a trip to Palo Alto, fell in love with it, met the team, they loved they like, you know, we just got along great. It was a it was a mobile ad SDK company.

• 6:40Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  It was a mobile ad network, so they needed my app to drive traffic through the network.

• 6:44Shaan Puri?

  Cool.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  And I needed money and a job.

• 6:46Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  So they like it was, you know, pretty mutually beneficial. They acquired the app, I think it was like for 50K, half in cash, half in stock, which was great for me. It was a nice like lump sum to like get a lump sum, sorry, to get like apartment and furniture and stuff. And then my first job was to make a was to make a sequel that was a paid version. Oh, no, actually, no, the my first job was to make it. I kept that plus, which was the paid version.

• 7:15Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  And we we launched it and immediately it made 200 grand. And I was like, damn it.

• 7:21Shaan Puri?

  Wow.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Damn it. You should have just done this by myself.

• 7:25Shaan Puri?

  You're early to the plus train, but there wasn't Apple plus, was it ESPN plus?

• 7:29Speaker 01

  You were you were. I invented that.

• 7:31Shaan Puri?

  You pioneered that shit.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have it patented, actually. And so then we made I kept that two and then we made I kept that two plus and we just milked this thing.

• 7:40Shaan Puri?

  How much did this you think it generated?

• 7:42Speaker 01

  The whole thing made like half a million bucks or something like that. But then, you know, then it died.

• 7:46Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  But.

• 7:47Shaan Puri?

  And so you had you had that run of like you're doing that on campus. So you got the taste of like the thrill of making something succeeding, kind of failing, but also succeeding at the same time. Where was your head at at that point? You're like, what are you thinking at that moment? You're like, oh, I could just do this again. Or what was your approach after that?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Like after I got the job?

• 8:08Shaan Puri?

  Just like after you had gone through that experience, like, did you think of like, I'm gonna do this again? Or what was your?

• 8:14Speaker 01

  It definitely was my first like little taste of independent success. So that definitely gave me a little courage. Um, like my plan was, okay, I'm just gonna stay at this company and work my ass off and try to try, you know, do what I can to make this thing a success so that like the stock, you know, becomes something and. That didn't happen.

• 8:35Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  But, yeah, it was like, definitely, it gave me my first little taste of success and before that I had never, you know, had, I had never like felt momentum like that before, where something's working and the graph is going up to the right and you're like, oh my god, I'm on to something.

• 8:52Shaan Puri?

  Right. And then you tasted that again when you started doing like content, right? Vine, Vine content was the next time you tasted that, like that kind of crazy virality?

• 9:02Speaker 01

  I, actually, that was more, everything since then has been more linear.

• 9:07Shaan Puri?

  Really?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, I've never been, you know, you see creators all the time that blow up like out of nowhere. Like, you know, this year it was like Alex Earl or something like that.

• 9:17Shaan Puri?

  Sure.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Or, um, who else? Like the octopus, octopussy kid, do you know him?

• 9:22Shaan Puri?

  No.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Anyways, it happens, it seems like it happens.

• 9:23Shaan Puri?

  Sounds promising, though. He sounds like, he's really funny.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Sounds like a gem. Um, he's really funny. But for me, it was always like, I kind of had to grind my way to having an audience.

• 9:33Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  By literally downloading Vine, making videos every single day. I was, I was actually pretty late, I would say. Like, the whole first like class of, you know, like famous Viners had already been a thing, like King Badge.

• 9:47Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Brittany Ferlin, they were already like people.

• 9:50Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  That everyone recognized. So when I downloaded it, I was just like, I didn't download it with the intention of like being somebody or, you know, generating an audience or anything like that. I just was, I was working on a social media app for this company. And it was like Snapchat for video, basically. And then Snapchat for video came out.

• 10:08Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, Snapchat added video.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  We were like, damn it. And so basically I was like just keeping tabs on all the new ones that were coming out and Vine came out, so I downloaded it, started playing around with it. And I lived alone in Palo Alto, which as a 21-year-old is the most like boring life imaginable. So I would just start making videos. I would get home from work and I just, all of a sudden like started feeling, like I was like flexing my creative muscle and hadn't done that in a long time.

• 10:31Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  I felt good. So every day I would just make more videos and then, yeah, it was like getting involved in the community, you know, like making online friends with the other people that were kind of getting some traction. And then I started showing up on the popular page and people started recognizing my face. And I just kept doing it, like. Just was genuinely like, didn't try to make it a job. I just was like, programming is my job. This is my hobby and I'm gonna treat it like an art, sort of. And that, that sort of paid off because I people, I think people liked the sincerity behind it.

• 11:05Shaan Puri?

  And you, what do you mean by that? So like for the people that were, let's compare, the people that were trying really hard to like, become famous on Vine and what you were doing, what do you think was different to the outsider?

• 11:17Speaker 01

  I think like selling out was a much more obvious thing. Back then or a much more like binary thing, whereas now it's like completely expected. It's like someone, someone takes off and they start doing ad reads and their fans are like, yeah, get the bag, let's go. Whereas back then it was like, first of all, six seconds is really hard to endorse something in like naturally.

• 11:37Shaan Puri?

  You can't even say get the bag.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. So it was pretty obvious when people like started making money and then people would be like, ah. You know, you sold out, you're not the same.

• 11:47Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  So I think that it helped that I had an actual job on the side that I was making decent money.

• 11:53Shaan Puri?

  But you got to a couple of million followers, right?

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think I had like, I, yeah, I think I had like three or four or something on Vine.

• 12:01Shaan Puri?

  I always wondered.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Something like that, or maybe two, I don't know.

• 12:04Shaan Puri?

  What happened to Vine?

• 12:07Speaker 01

  I think it was just a little bit ahead of its time.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Because I think now, I mean, if it came out like five years ago, I feel like it would have worked.

• 12:16Shaan Puri?

  But it was kind of working then. And then they just like turned it off.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  I think it was because when Twitter, Twitter bought it before.

• 12:23Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  They launched, then they launched it and it really worked, but then like the traffic started tapering off. And I think they were at a crossroads where they were like, we can't monetize just, just our website.

• 12:34Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Like Twitter was having a really hard time monetizing. I think it still is.

• 12:38Shaan Puri?

  And wasn't there like a meeting with creators where the creators like, we want money and Twitter was like nah, and then they, wasn't there like some famous showdown?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Something like that where they, yeah, I think they like were in a room with like King Batch and those people and they were like, we want this much money to keep posting and they were like, we don't have it.

• 12:56Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 12:58Shaan Puri?

  They're like, okay.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're like, actually, we're just gonna shut, shut down the whole thing instead.

• 13:04Shaan Puri?

  You want more money?

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 13:06Shaan Puri?

  They're like, oh, okay.

• 13:09Shaan Puri?

  So you, okay, so you go through that. You, you guys have had a, you've been doing content on like podcast YouTube for like over 10 years, probably almost, right?

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, almost.

• 13:20Shaan Puri?

  What, and you said, you know, it's kind of linear. So if I said like, what was kind of breakout for you? Or, or like the breakout moments or like things you remember were like, oh shit, things just got different for me. Like I, something is different. I don't know exactly how, how big this is, but like something changed.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  I remember, I remember the first time that I hit a million views overnight. It was like a, it was a that's cringe video, which was like one of now like one of your most viewed series on my channel. And I remember like we did a couple and they seemed to be working. People seemed to be into them, but it wasn't like apparent how much more people liked them than, you know, the other stuff that I was doing. And then we posted like the third or fourth one. And I remember waking up to a million views and I was like, oh my God, that is, that was unfathomable for me. You know, even five months ago, like those numbers, it's like, don't even make sense to me. And so that was one pretty distinctive moment.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Another one was when we, when then me and Noel went on tour for the first time and the second time and all the times after that, and the tickets would just like sell out. And I was like, I see, that was a moment where I was like, I can't believe that this is now converting into real world sales where people want to come to a venue and see us in person. That felt really cool. That's always like a weirdly sobering thing.

• 14:45Shaan Puri?

  What do you guys do when you do that? Cause we did, uh, we've done, I think we did two live shows this year. Both times they like, you know, people showed up, which was like shocking in the moment and afterwards. Uh, but also we were like, what the, what do they want? Like, what are we supposed to do? Podcast, like, you know, let's just do the podcast in front of you while you sit here. Like, yeah, I know. That's boring, I think. Um, and we tried to do a bunch of stuff. Uh, I personally hate it. I hate, uh, I'm like, I don't really want to do that again because like, you know, your series is called That's Cringe. That's in my head. I was like, this is cringe. Right now, what's happening is a little bit cringe. What do you guys actually do when you do your live stuff?

• 15:22Speaker 01

  We did, uh, so like the first couple of shows that we did were just, uh, on stage like podcasts. Cause the same thing, we didn't really know. And then what do people want to see? I'm not really sure they're buying tickets for a live podcast.

• 15:33Shaan Puri?

  500 people just sitting quietly listening to the podcast live.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  No, our first show was like a hundred or something like that.

• 15:37Shaan Puri?

  Or whatever. Just a crowd of people just watching the podcast.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that went well.

• 15:41Shaan Puri?

  But you guys are funny. I think that's the thing. They're laughing, so it's kind of a comedy show.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:46Shaan Puri?

  So I think that works.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  But then we, so then after that, we did another tour where we were like, hey, we can't, we need something that's gonna like guarantee laughs. And we really want to, want to put effort into this. So then we wrote a show. And then we started writing songs for the show and it kind of became like a third music, a third like live sort of that's cringe that we did on stage.

• 16:09Shaan Puri?

  Gotcha.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  And then a third, like just stand up comedy.

• 16:12Shaan Puri?

  Wow.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Um, cause Noel was a stand up before we started doing anything together. So he kinda already had jobs and.

• 16:18Shaan Puri?

  In research for this, I saw a video of you doing stand up.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  What?

• 16:21Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Where?

• 16:22Shaan Puri?

  There's a video.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Oh my God. Please, please do not look that up. Please, for the love of God, I, I do not want to see that. Oh, it's on my own channel, dude. I'm taking that down after this.

• 16:31Shaan Puri?

  It wasn't that hard for me to do this research, by the way. What's it like doing stand up?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Horrifying. Horrifying. The thing is I, I DJ now.

• 16:42Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, I've heard.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  And so I like, that's in front of people and I find myself like a lot more comfortable, obviously because it's not just you and the mic and the audience. It's like there's something in between, which is already awesome. You know, it's like music.

• 16:56Shaan Puri?

  Right. So you, uh, for the live shows, you guys are like turning it into like a full.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. By the end of the tour, cause we did a, we, we toured the whole world.

• 17:03Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  And we did like, I don't know, like a hundred shows or something like that. So by the end is like, we had the show literally word for word, scripted and memorized.

• 17:12Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Cause when you do it that many times, it just becomes the same show. And then you like alter it a little bit every time. If something got a laugh, you'll add that back for the next one. And it kind of evolves.

• 17:22Shaan Puri?

  So we had Samir from Colin and Samir in here yesterday. And I had asked him a question like, um, I think we said something like, yo, uh, what three creators do you see that you think, um, like, could become billionaires? Like, you talked about Mr. Beast, great. Who else? Who else you think has that pathway or potential? And he said, Mr. Beast, uh, he said, I forget who said, dude, perfect or something like that. And then he said, you.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  No way.

• 17:50Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Really?

• 17:51Shaan Puri?

  Yeah. And I was like, that's amazing. Cause he named 50 other YouTubers, by the way, during the episode. I was like, oh, cool. I never heard of these people. Cause I'm not like in the like, I have the things I like, and I'm not like YouTube culture. I'm not like everywhere on YouTube.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:05Shaan Puri?

  And I was like, dude, he's coming in here tomorrow. I'm gonna tell him this and see how he reacts. And you sound surprised.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  I definitely am surprised.

• 18:13Shaan Puri?

  You know, the thing, the thing he said wasn't like, he's going to be, he's like, uh, they could, he's like, it's up to them. He's like, they totally can, if they, if they choose to like optimize in that direction. They are like the ones who have like the, the kind of the audience, the intelligence and like the kind of the, the capability to do stuff there. Or they might take that energy in a different direction.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:36Shaan Puri?

  I also, uh, I was telling Ben all the way over here. I was like, I was like, I feel like you and Noel could do a, uh, like Harold and Camargo to White Castle movie.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So we are working on something. I can't really say too much about it.

• 18:50Shaan Puri?

  I'm a believer that that's like so in your guys' wheelhouse.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  I think it'd be a lot of fun.

• 18:55Shaan Puri?

  I remember aside, uh, when I was younger, I acted in a movie like as a kid, like a kid actor of a thing. And my older brother in the movie was Cal Penn, who is.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Oh, sick. Yeah.

• 19:04Shaan Puri?

  He called me one day and he was like, uh, hey, how's like school going? Like, I don't even know what I had to say. I was like, how's your, what do you do? What are you doing now? And he's like, oh, I'm filming Harold and Camargo to White Castle, which to me, I didn't even understand what the, I didn't know what White Castle was. There was none where I was at. So I thought it was a fantasy movie.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 19:21Shaan Puri?

  I was like, oh yeah, I guess he's like going to some fantasy epic castle thing. And I remember going to school and telling my friends, like, yeah, this.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Why did he call you?

• 19:29Shaan Puri?

  Just checking in on me.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  What?

• 19:31Shaan Puri?

  He was just a nice guy. He was just checking-

• 19:32Speaker 01

  So you were like friends with him after that?

• 19:34Shaan Puri?

  Cause like, cause you were saying like, you know, when you go on tour, you hang out like-

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:37Shaan Puri?

  Same thing on a set. You just sit there-

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 19:39Shaan Puri?

  For like nine hours waiting for them to line up the shot.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

• 19:42Shaan Puri?

  Do like five minutes of acting and then you just sit there again, like-

• 19:44Speaker 01

  So he was just checking up on you, like, what's good?

• 19:46Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, he was like, what's good, man? Like, you know, how's your summer going?

• 19:48Speaker 01

  You saw his number?

• 19:49Shaan Puri?

  Um, I don't know anymore.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  You should read it out, actually.

• 19:53Shaan Puri?

  He came to speak at Duke, actually, and I was like, I went up on stage and I was like, "Oh, I look totally different than like when I was 11."

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:02Shaan Puri?

  And I was like, "Ayy!" And then he was like- "He probably has no clue who I am."

• 20:06Speaker 01

  That's really funny. He seems like a nice guy.

• 20:08Shaan Puri?

  Oh, he's ultra-nice. Uh, really a nice guy. He's, also, I really like about him is he, um, he just like grinded super, super hard at a time where there's like no Indian actors. Like, the only Indian acting jobs he could get was like, "You're the convenience store guy, you're like thick accent." And I remember talking to him on set. I was like, "What are you gonna do after this?" And he's like, uh, he's like talking to his agent or something, and he's just kept turning down roles. Cause he's like, "They just want me to be the stereotypical Indian guy."

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:36Shaan Puri?

  And I was like, um, "Okay, cool. So like, what are you gonna do instead?" He's like, "I don't have anything." And there's no instead. I was like, "So..." And he's like, he's like, "I have no money and I'm just gonna like, "I'm gonna just wait till I get a real..." He's like, "If I do that, I'll never get out of that."

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:51Shaan Puri?

  "So I'm just gonna like risk it all and like grind through this period of like not having anything, um, until I get there."

• 20:58Speaker 01

  That's funny. I, I took a, I've told this story before on my own podcast, but I took an acting class one time. And they were talking about leaning into your typecast at the beginning of your career. Like, you have to do-

• 21:09Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  What you look like in order to like get your foot in the door.

• 21:13Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  So we did this exercise where we all went around this, the circle like this. It was like a, you know, room full of students. It's like 20 of them, and we all had a journal. And we would all like one by one, look at each other and write down what we thought they looked like and their typecast was. And so like, and then we all revealed them, basically like one by one, they, the, the teacher would point to one of us and then the rest of the students would read what they wrote about that person. So it was like, it was like doctor, scientist, you know, and it was like, uh, you know, race car driver, cool shit. And then it gets to me. And they're like influencer, coke head, DJ, sells coke in the bathroom. It was literally like five minutes of just the most offensive shit. How I look like a douchebag.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  I was like, damn, but I mean, I guess that's.

• 22:00Shaan Puri?

  You're an influencer and a DJ now, so. I don't know too much about your lifestyle, but like.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  What ended up happening?

• 22:09Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, he.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  They nailed it.

• 22:11Shaan Puri?

  He actually had a similar thing. He's like, got a call. He's like, oh yeah, I'm going to be on CSI. And they're like CSI, it's a terrorist plot. He's like, oh man, come on dude.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  Damn it.

• 22:20Shaan Puri?

  And he actually, what he did was he changed his name. So his name is not actually Cal Penn. His name is like. Kulpin Modi and he's like, I'm not getting any auditions for the roles I want. So we just created a fake name by splitting his first name.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:32Shaan Puri?

  And then he started getting calls in and then they're like, he shows up, he's not white. And they were like, oh. Okay. I guess you're here. Go ahead and read the role and see what happens. Yeah. And then he got it. Yeah. Actually, the funny thing is the, one of the bigger roles he got was like Indian doctor on House. And I was like, ah, you split the difference. You don't have to do the accent, but like, you know, still kind of stereotypical in a way. Did you, when you were like trying to get better at what you were doing, um, how did you do that? Cause like. Obviously you get better by just doing reps, but sometimes, you know, if I want to get better at something, I might, you know, hire a coach, read a book, take a class, uh, like.

• 23:10Shaan Puri?

  Study and break down. People were already good at it. Like, how did you get good at doing what you do? Was there a, any intentional kind of process you went through?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  I think a lot of the times, um, if I'm thinking about like getting what makes a good podcast. Or what makes a good YouTube video, or what makes a good song, I'll just like consume a lot of it and just think about it a lot. But I mean, like, the number one thing you can do is just do it. You just learn by doing, at least for me. So that's, that's how I've gotten good, is just reps over time. Because like, if you go and listen to my first episode of my podcast, it was complete garbage.

• 23:49Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  It's just something I've gotten better at. I'm still not that great at it, but like, I've gotten better at it through the years.

• 23:55Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Um, and now I'm going through that, sort of with like, music production too. It's just like, I'm at the beginning stage where I'm like, everything I make is a little bit better. And just leaning into that, the joy in like, conquering the zero to one phase. And, yeah, just like, learning to enjoy that, that part of the learning curve, I think is really important.

• 24:13Shaan Puri?

  What are some things you figured out that made, like, let's say, the That Cringe series, which now has like, I don't know, 150 million views on that, that, that style of video that you do? What's something you figured out, you're like, oh, that's, I used to do it this way, then I figured out this and made it better?

• 24:29Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's really anything conscious. You know, it could, it, it's like, it's mostly stuff that you just like, innately pick up on when you do things over and over again, when you read comments and think about what people are reacting to.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  But, you know, a lot of the times, it's like, the first time we did a video like that, you know, we were trying to riff and kind of stepping over each other's lines and jokes and punchlines and stuff. And the next time we did it, we got a little bit better at like, letting each other speak and breathe, and like, that's one thing that I think we're really good at now, is we never speak over each other, like, we never interrupt. We're really good at riffing, but, like, because we're innately just conscious of like, you know, the audience and what they want to hear. And no one likes to hear people interrupting and stepping all over each other's jokes, you know? So stuff like that.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  We just get better at, like, just because you do it, you know?

• 25:24Shaan Puri?

  Uh, I like that answer, even though I wanted you to say, like, the trick.

• 25:30Shaan Puri?

  It's like a lesson I've had to relearn so many times that there is, like, you know, there are things that make things better, but they're like, there wasn't the trick.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:37Shaan Puri?

  It was like, a shitload of reps.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:38Shaan Puri?

  And caring, and then like, you know, you just sort of like, get better with every rep.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  But there's like,

• 25:43Shaan Puri?

  Which is kind of the boring, it's like, the, it's not the answer that's like, yes, I found the secret.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  I, I just think, I don't think it would be fun if you went from zero to good at something, just by doing one little trick, because it doesn't, you don't, like, I find so much joy in And like getting a little bit better at something every time I do it. And then seeing a little evidence of that. What you get by posting online, right? Like the next time you do something, you know, five comments being like, wow, this is better than the last one you did. And you're like, oh, fuck, yeah.

• 26:13Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  I'm getting it, you know? That drives me. I love that feeling.

• 26:18Shaan Puri?

  We had Mark Benson come in court here the day before and he, he has this thing he said is like. Happiness, people think happiness comes from not having problems. Happiness comes from solving problems.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:32Shaan Puri?

  And I was like, oh, yeah, that's like so fucking true. And the better version of that, it turns out is like when you. When you feel like you chose your, that problem. So like, if the weather is just bad, you know, you know, it's like, oh, I didn't choose this. It's happening to me.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:49Shaan Puri?

  But if you're like, you know, I wanna like for you, you're like doing these long 50 mile races or 100 mile races or whatever. It's like you're choosing a set of problems that you're gonna get, you know, struggle but get satisfaction with as you overcome them.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:03Shaan Puri?

  Right now, what are those for you? So it's like the endurance stuff. Maybe the business stuff is like that too for you or no?

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Uh, yes, for sure. Both, both of those things.

• 27:14Shaan Puri?

  Let's, let's talk about the business stuff. So on the business side. Uh, you know, a lot of these creators are building brands off their stuff like products.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, for me it was like.

• 27:23Shaan Puri?

  Investing or other stuff. Are you doing any of that stuff?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  I am. Yeah. I'm developing something that I'm gonna launch in the fall. But, uh, for me, it was always kind of difficult. I, I would see people doing it and I was like, this, okay, this seems obvious. And then I would think like the money that people are paying us to promote their shit on the show. Like. Express VPN, for example, they've been a sponsor of the show for years. And they've probably paid us like, you know, if we totaled it all up, it's like an insane amount of money.

• 27:50Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  But their return on investment must have been way higher.

• 27:53Shaan Puri?

  Right. Otherwise they would have been crazy.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Continue to rebuy the ads year after year. So I'm like, why don't we just like, it just makes sense for us to own something that we're promoting. Cause then we see all the upside.

• 28:03Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  But it, it was always. It always kind of killed me thinking of the right thing. Cause I don't want to force anything. On, on my audience. Uh, and comedy is a very hard thing to like align with a product or a service. Cause it's just something that people enjoy. It's not. You know, it's not like a, I don't know. It's not like fitness or cooking where there's like products that people use every time they cook. With comedy, it's not like that. It's, uh, it's just like, I don't know. Generic and sort of, so I, like, when I started doing the endurance stuff, that's when I was like, oh, there's a lot of stuff that I'm doing every day.

• 28:42Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  That it's natural for me to promote and-

• 28:45Shaan Puri?

  This is really cool. Cody's Run Club?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this is kinda, kind of my first,

• 28:52Speaker 01

  like, uh, product in this direction. Where like I wanted to make something more like fitness focused. Um, so this is like the first time I've done like running shorts, for example.

• 29:02Shaan Puri?

  When you're promoting, when you're promoting it, are you doing, cause that little like video that was on there was kinda funny. Uh, are you like using the like, are you leaning into the humor side or you try to be like more serious when you're promoting the stuff?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Uh, that's something I still kinda battle with myself over. How serious, cause like I always wanna be, like comedy's a very easy crutch to lean on.

• 29:22Shaan Puri?

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Cause it's like, I like making fun of myself and also if I'm a little bit self-conscious about something, it's like, oh, I was just joking. So like this, you know, it's like a hard for me to sit in a studio and actually make a fitness video. Cause I'm like, I'm not that guy.

• 29:35Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  I'm just doing endurance races, cause I like doing it and it's a challenge, but I'm not the guy that's out there like, in slow mo, like, you can do anything, you know? So I like, I like to blend the two.

• 29:46Shaan Puri?

  I mean, that was great. Like you were, he's like on the bike and the guy's like spraying, spraying the mist in your face to make it look like you're sweaty. That's great.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  So yeah, this is like my first, you know, time kind of, generating a product in like the more fitness lane. And then I'm gonna do something else that I think will hopefully be a little bit bigger.

• 30:04Shaan Puri?

  It'd be funny if you were just sort of the anti David Goggins. Like just went the other way.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, stay soft.

• 30:09Shaan Puri?

  Yes. Marshmallows. Sign off with something just so, so incredibly soft. Do you, uh, you listen to a lot of his stuff?

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Uh, I do. I mean, I read his book, his first book. And, uh, I've listened to his like Joe Rogan episodes and stuff like that.

• 30:25Shaan Puri?

  You should, uh, have you read the book, uh, Living with a Seal?

• 30:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:29Shaan Puri?

  Um, it's a great book. There's an entrepreneur named Jesse Itzler. Do you know him? Have you ever heard of this guy? Jesse Itzler?

• 30:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:36Shaan Puri?

  He, um, so he married the woman who created Spanx.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:40Shaan Puri?

  Um, he, and then he created-

• 30:43Speaker 01

  Spanx, like the concept, the action?

• 30:46Shaan Puri?

  Uh, no, no, no. The, uh, the shape where?

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Spanking?

• 30:50Shaan Puri?

  That would be big. That would be, that's a big idea. She, uh, so, and he created, like, he started off as a white rapper. Then, uh, so he's like, white rapper, then he's like, alright, not gonna make it as a rapper. So he's like, I'm gonna work in a, um, record stu-, like, a record label. So he's like, working as a re-, in a record label, his intern was, uh, like, this guy who's trying to be this rapper, trying to be all hard. He's like, yeah, I like this guy. It was 50 Cent. So 50 Cent was his intern for a little bit, 50 Cent goes off, blows up. So he's like, okay, um, I'm, he's like, that guy, like, had it, I don't really have it. He's like, what do I, what can I do? He's like, he started creating jingles, so like rap jingles.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 31:30Shaan Puri?

  So he's like, um, he created the Knicks theme song, like, the New York Knicks, like, go Knicks, go, whatever, go New York, go. And so he created sports, like, jingle, like, kinda like, quick raps for companies.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 31:41Shaan Puri?

  And then he sells that company for like, I don't know, four million bucks. He's like, alright, I got four million bucks, I'll split it between the two guys. What are we gonna do now that we got two million bucks? And they, after they sold, they met a rich guy who took him on a private jet. And they were like, flying in this private jet, they're like, this is amazing, we would love to do this more, we can't afford a jet. So like, it'd be cool if you could just own like, a couple rides on a jet, like, a piece of a jet. Like, what if I could just fly on a jet 10 times, that'd be amazing.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:07Shaan Puri?

  Time share for jets, so they created that, ended up selling that.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Jet or something?

• 32:11Shaan Puri?

  They sold it to NetJets, so, uh, there was like Marquee, I think was the name of theirs. So, and so they sold it to NetJets, which was owned by Warren Buffett. That was a huge sale, and then now he like, owns a piece of an NBA team, he like, you know, Zico Coconut Water? He like, invested a bunch in that, early on, when he was like, oh, coconut water's gonna be a big thing?

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:28Shaan Puri?

  Uh, cause he's an endurance athlete.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 32:30Shaan Puri?

  He loved doing long runs, and so he, he was like, the running community loves coconut water. I think mainstream's gonna too.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:37Shaan Puri?

  So he found a small brand that wasn't doing that well, put a bunch of money in, and they ended up, like, selling it to Coke later.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  I listened to that, How I Built This episode, it's, that's like, one of my favorites.

• 32:46Shaan Puri?

  The coconut water one?

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you're looking for a good one.

• 32:48Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Look, look up that episode and watch that, it's great.

• 32:51Shaan Puri?

  And so he, uh, one of the things he- Did along the way was he was like, I really want to run this like, I guess there's some hardcore race in Arizona or whatever. The hardest race.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Death Valley or something like that.

• 33:00Shaan Puri?

  Something like that. And he goes there and he sees people running. And then he sees this guy, he's just like a huge guy running this race and he's like by himself. And he's like bleeding and he's running and it's David Goggins essentially. And he meets him, he's like, hey, I want to run this race next year. Will you train me? And he's like, will you live in my house and train me? For like 30 days. And then he did. And then he wrote, years later, he wrote a book about that whole experience.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Oh, that's cool.

• 33:30Shaan Puri?

  This was before anyone knew who David Goggins was. So the book came out and he just calls it Living with a Seal. He never mentions the guy's name. But he's like this character that's just like hard as shit. And just like, you know, would wake him up, like, you know, it'd be three in the morning. They just, like, they would run like eight miles at night.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:44Shaan Puri?

  You wake him up at three in the morning and be like, wake up bitch, it's time. You know, like, he'd be like, let's go, we're going running again and again and again.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  I gotta read that.

• 33:52Shaan Puri?

  It's a great book. It's a great read.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Jesse Itzler, you said?

• 33:54Shaan Puri?

  Jesse Itzler, yeah. Living with a Seal. It's a good, uh.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  I'll look that up.

• 33:57Shaan Puri?

  A good one. Have you like, for the running thing, is it like? Why? Like, I don't, I'm like, if you told me to do an endurance thing, I'd be like, oh, you've suggested my least favorite activity on earth.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:09Shaan Puri?

  Why do you do it?

• 34:10Speaker 01

  My parents did it growing up, so it's kind of in my blood. I saw them do it.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  And I've always, like, they raised us, like, we would go on bike trips all the time. And so we were always doing it and then we would see them do these incredible feats of fitness and it just became something that I, that drove me. And then I was like an athlete in college and stuff, so. When I graduated, I was like, I need something to stay in shape. So like, running just seemed like the most natural thing. And then, uh, once you do, you know, five miles, you're like, oh, or once you do three miles, you're like, I think I can do five. And then you're like, ah, I should, I should maybe go for a half marathon. You get kind of addicted to it.

• 34:48Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  And then. So I've done like marathons ever since and then my sister signed up for an Ironman and she did it. And she's my younger sister. So I was like, damn it, she did that before me. So then I signed up for one and then I did one. And now it just kind of like through that, I was going through like a pretty dark period, like right after COVID. And uh, through training for this, for these, I did an ultra marathon first and then I did an Ironman. And through training for those, I kind of like refound my confidence and my happiness. So now it's like something I want to make part of my life. So like I started the training channel. And now I'm just planning more things. Like I'm gonna do the New York marathon and then I'm planning hundred and something mile alter that I'm trying to do.

• 35:33Shaan Puri?

  What about the music videos you guys do? Cause um,

• 35:37Shaan Puri?

  they're amazing and uh, they're like, almost like too amazing. It's like, wait, like where did this come from? Why is this like, why is this good? Are you guys, is this what you guys actually do? Like, I didn't really understand. The first time I saw one, I was like, this is uh, I was just like very jealous. I was like, holy shit. Like you can't have, you can't be like, oh, I'm relatable and funny. But I'm also like mega talented on the other side. It's like, no, you get to pick. You know, that's how life works.

• 36:03Shaan Puri?

  How'd you guys start doing that? And why is it like, why is it so,

• 36:08Shaan Puri?

  so fucking good? And like, why don't you lean into that more if it's so good?

• 36:12Speaker 01

  I do think that, yeah, like a lot of the stuff I've done or been successful at, it's been like, like I'm the person to look at a pipe dream and be like, it would be really cool to be that. And then like actually try. And so that's kind of how that started was.

• 36:26Shaan Puri?

  Like you don't count yourself out, you mean?

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Like I, I, somewhere in me kind of believe that I'm probably capable of that somewhere. And I think everyone is of everything.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  But I'm pretty good at like not. You know, turning myself down, I guess, at the beginning. And that's kind of what I lost in that like dark period was I still lost that confidence. And if I thought of something, I would revert back to like, no, you couldn't accomplish that.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  But when it came to music, I was always like, it'd be cool to like, it would be cool to like, go online and say, I have a new song out. You know what I mean? That would be a really cool feeling.

• 37:04Shaan Puri?

  Let's work backwards from that.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And like, I never, I never played any instruments besides drums growing up. I was never really musically inclined. I had a good sense of rhythm and I really enjoyed music. And so I was kind of like, no, this is something that's not really for you. And then I was like, no, why can't it be? And so I downloaded FL Studio, I made a beat. And for one of our videos, I invited Noel over because he used to actually rap in high school. So I was like, I made this beat. Can you just rap over it? And we'll make a funny song for the end of this video. And he, you know, took a little bit of convincing because he was like, I closed this chapter of my life. So finally got, I got him over to the place. He, you know, put a verse down.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  I recorded my verse. I wrote and recorded and then I was like, tried to figure out how to process a voice.

• 37:54Shaan Puri?

  Which song was this one?

• 37:55Speaker 01

  This horrible song called Keep Ya Dick Fat. And then, which was a comedy song again. Comedy is like, again, again, the comedy is a nice crutch to lean on where you're like, we're bad, but it's funny.

• 38:05Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  So people don't like, put too much pressure on you or make fun of you too much. And so we did that. Oh, that's still up. Wow. Okay.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  My first beat ever. It's horrible.

• 38:20Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, I like the beginning stuff. I always like the early stuff.

• 38:29Shaan Puri?

  How'd you decide on that as the concept? Like, what, what didn't make it that this one as the idea?

• 38:35Speaker 01

  That's a great question, actually. I totally forget how we even came up with that. I think he must've said, keep your dick fat or something. And then I was like, oh, that's funny. Let's put that down.

• 38:43Shaan Puri?

  Well, that's also how Tiny Beat Gang came about, right? Like that, that's, it was just something you said.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  It's just like, that was our whole thing. It's just dick jokes and being stupid and being five years old. So, and then, so after we released this, uh, we shot a music video for it. And, uh, where we like used a friend that was a DP and we shot it all nice and then we're like, oh, this is a fun thing. Like doing something a little bit more high production value. This is like a really fun path to go down. And then shortly after this, I got a DM from a producer in LA. His name's Diamond Pistols, now like a fantastic friend and has produced a ton of music for us. Um, he was like, hey, I'm a producer. Let me produce your next song. This is really funny. And so we were like, sure. And we showed up at his place. And we made a song called Super Zen.

• 39:32Shaan Puri?

  Like in a day or like?

• 39:34Speaker 01

  We did. We made that song in a day and.

• 39:37Shaan Puri?

  How do you make a song in a day? What do you, so you get there?

• 39:39Speaker 01

  I mean, if you're working with a good producer, it's, you get there, they're like, what do you want to make? And you're like, hey, well, I've been listening. Usually the way a music session starts is you'll just listen to music together. And you'll be like, I've, I've really been into this song recently. You'll put it on, try to find some sort of inspiration. Or if you come in with a concept, then you'll kind of work off that. We didn't really have anything. And so he started making a beat. We just like wrote some bullshit lyrics. And then we came up with this concept. We're like, at that time, Xanax was like the big thing, like Lil Pump and all these guys were talking about doing Xanax all the time. So we were like, let's make a song called Super Zen where it doesn't make any sense. Cause we don't actually know what like mainstream rap lyrics mean. We're just kind of trying to, you know, hang on to the trending references and stuff like that.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  So then, once we made that song, we're like, it's, the song is pretty damn good. Let's shoot another video for it. And Noel called in a bunch of favors. We ended up getting a horse for the video.

• 40:33Shaan Puri?

  These look expensive too. So you guys like?

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, this one was probably like.

• 40:36Shaan Puri?

  You made a bet. You're like, this is worth it.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Yes. I mean, music videos are a money pit.

• 40:41Shaan Puri?

  At the time, was that like, kind of like significant? Like is that like, this was like a lot of money?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. It was, we had nothing back then. So it was huge. So like I said, a lot of people did it like on favors because they liked us and that's Diamond Pistols. You know, a lot of people that were in the video, like she was a paid actress, but, um, are just like friends and stuff. And we knew someone who had a horse and they brought the horse and we paid them like 500 bucks or something.

• 41:05Shaan Puri?

  Wow.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Uh, so then we released this on Spotify and it actually got a lot of streams because people watched the video because it was funny. So then we were like, we should do an EP maybe. So then we started making more music and then fast forward to two EPs and albums later, we signed a music deal with Arista. And we released two songs with them, one of them being Broke Bitch, which now has like over 50 million streams. I think Walkman has like 80 million or 90 million?

• 41:33Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, I think I saw one was like 85 plus.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  I think it's almost gold.

• 41:38Shaan Puri?

  Is that a hundred, 100 million is gold?

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Uh, it's just like, it's 100,000 or it's 10 million sales. And I don't know how, I forget how streams equate to sales. Yeah, I forget. It's a weird equation. But I think it's almost certified gold, which is fucking crazy.

• 41:53Shaan Puri?

  That's a funny rap idea for you. Be like, because everyone's always platinum.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:59Shaan Puri?

  We went gold.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 42:01Shaan Puri?

  So you, um.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  That's good. I like that. I might steal that.

• 42:05Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, I'm funny too. One of my questions on my list was like, how do I, am I, it was, am I funny and how do I get funnier?

• 42:13Speaker 01

  So I would say yes.

• 42:15Shaan Puri?

  You listen to the pod, go ahead.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say you're definitely funny. I chuckle. I think you guys. Here, I'll give you some constructive criticism from a listener, from a fan of the show. I think you need better cold opens.

• 42:28Shaan Puri?

  Agreed.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  A lot of times I feel like you use the wrong moments. And you should use the funnier moments, maybe.

• 42:34Shaan Puri?

  It's even dumber than that. We come from a different world. So it's like, uh.

• 42:40Shaan Puri?

  We're just dumb about like how you would do a creative process. It's like, oh, you should care about this and like you should run a process that like. Like looks at the feedback or the data and then like makes it better.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:51Shaan Puri?

  Or like watch it together and be like, what can we do better?

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:53Shaan Puri?

  We've never done that.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:54Shaan Puri?

  But we should.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know. The show's good. So that's like, that's my only little thing because it's such a, it's such a great opportunity for a laugh right before the smash cut to the intro. It's such a beautiful thing. And so we, we tend to like take our cold opens pretty seriously or like we need, we need a good laugh right at the beginning of the show. Someone, someone turns it on. They're like, huh. I knew I liked this show. Another week, you know?

• 43:21Speaker 01

  I'm sticking around one more week.

• 43:22Shaan Puri?

  I'll stay till we add re.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I'll stick around for 10 minutes. Exactly.

• 43:27Shaan Puri?

  Um, the, uh, I just saw on the ideas, I have an ideas section for you where I was going to pitch you a slash.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, okay.

• 43:36Shaan Puri?

  We had one before you walked in.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Frozen S'mores?

• 43:38Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, I was like, why isn't there something called frozen S'mores?

• 43:42Speaker 01

  So why me, though?

• 43:44Shaan Puri?

  Well, we had the idea right before you arrived and I was like, I gotta ask Cody about Frozen S'mores. Potential? You think there's potential there?

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Listen, I like.

• 43:53Shaan Puri?

  So what we're gonna do here, let me tell you how this came about.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:57Shaan Puri?

  I was like, in the studio, whatever, and I was like, I want, uh, cause this, this might look however it looks. But like, we're in a office building and this is like a small, like cubicle of office when we're here. I was like, I want to buy an ice cream truck and turn it into a podcast studio and like roll it up to wherever we're gonna, whoever I want to record with and like.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what Steveo does.

• 44:17Shaan Puri?

  He does it in an ice cream truck?

• 44:19Speaker 01

  It's not in an ice cream truck, but he has like a Sprinter van.

• 44:22Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  That he's turned into a little.

• 44:23Shaan Puri?

  I was worried that.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  But it is cool having a traveling set. Cause he pulled up right outside my house and I literally like my commute was two seconds.

• 44:32Shaan Puri?

  That's what I want to do.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was pretty sick.

• 44:33Shaan Puri?

  And, uh, so we're like, okay, let's retrofit it. And then Ben was like, you know, well, we gotta just create an ice cream brand if we're gonna do that. And then.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:42Shaan Puri?

  Frozen S'mores.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. Okay.

• 44:44Shaan Puri?

  It's a smore.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  I see the.

• 44:46Shaan Puri?

  Cold and the marshmallows vanilla ice cream. Okay, that's idea number one.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Ooh, that's good. I like that.

• 44:51Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Marshmallows are my least favorite thing about smores.

• 44:53Shaan Puri?

  Agreed, agreed. Um, okay, next one. Uh, let's make a Netflix show. So I wanted to brainstorm with you real quick.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:00Shaan Puri?

  A Netflix show, business related. So business unscripted, that's the category.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:05Shaan Puri?

  So Shark Tank is a great show.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:08Shaan Puri?

  We need more. Uh, so like, you know, the way like, you know, American Idol happened and then the people were like, oh shit. The Voice, X Factor, America's Got Talent, like people just took that format and started remixing. Massive singer, like they're like, people like this amateur singing thing, we're gonna do it.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:24Shaan Puri?

  I think people like the amateur business thing. Shark Tank works.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 45:27Shaan Puri?

  There's not really another Shark Tank. Uh, there's not like another remixed version of a cool thing that you would want. If you like Shark Tank, you might like this.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  So we could do one for like creators?

• 45:38Shaan Puri?

  So I don't know, just like what would, what would work? What do you think?

• 45:41Speaker 01

  I like the idea of doing it where people like come in and pitch their channel or their like TikTok idea or whatever.

• 45:47Shaan Puri?

  This was Sully's idea last night. He's like, yeah, we need it for creators.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's good. I think I've heard, heard someone doing that. I think, cause I've, that's not the first time I've heard that idea.

• 45:57Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  But I think it's an awesome idea.

• 45:59Shaan Puri?

  So like, well, how would it work? So they come in, you got you as a guest, as like a successful creators, maybe are the like judges or whatever. What do they get? Cause like, you know, in a business thing, you're like, I get. The investment I need.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  What do like the, yeah, what are the judges?

• 46:11Shaan Puri?

  I get the investment, I'm gonna get, no, no, what do the judges get? What does the contestant get? Like, what do they want? To create the, to create their channel?

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Every creator just needs money to fund their idea.

• 46:20Shaan Puri?

  I see.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  And so, maybe you, yeah, and then you'd maybe like, as a judge, you'd be like, okay, now I get like 10% of, I'm your manager now, I get 10% of everything that you make.

• 46:29Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  In the future.

• 46:32Shaan Puri?

  It's a good idea. Okay, you're in. I, it sounds like, it sounds like you're in.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  It's, I'm in on both so far.

• 46:37Shaan Puri?

  Okay, cool.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  So we're doing all of these.

• 46:39Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, well, frozen S'mores, first, clearly.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:42Shaan Puri?

  Second, Shark Tank for, for creators.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:44Shaan Puri?

  Um, another one, uh, app startup ideas. Okay, so, cap that.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:50Shaan Puri?

  Smash hit.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:51Shaan Puri?

  Cap that plus. True smash hit.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  I kept that two smash hit.

• 46:56Shaan Puri?

  Smash hit.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  I kept that two plus.

• 46:58Shaan Puri?

  Where did it stop?

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Less of a hit.

• 47:00Shaan Puri?

  Was it two plus where it ended?

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's when traction started dying a little bit.

• 47:04Shaan Puri?

  Have you had any, and you were almost, I say almost, because I think your friend, best friend, something like that, started Cameo. So you were like very close also to creating Cameo.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:12Shaan Puri?

  Or being a part of Cameo.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I could have been in at the beginning. They were making that in my living room. And I was like, this is, okay, guys.

• 47:20Shaan Puri?

  Losers.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  I was like, cool, yeah, it looks cool. Look, what are these guys doing? And then I go record a YouTube video, like, that's any cooler. And, uh, and then it blew the fuck up. And then I ended up investing in series A.

• 47:32Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  And I was like, these guys were building this beside me.

• 47:36Shaan Puri?

  Well, good for you, because I, anytime I miss the first round, it kills me to come in later, even though like, you should just come in.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:42Shaan Puri?

  And I'm like so anchored to the fact that they were in my living room.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  It's out of the principle.

• 47:47Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, yeah, I will lose more.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 47:50Shaan Puri?

  So, uh, have you had any other, like, you know, viral app ideas that you haven't pursued? Because you're busy being like, rich and famous.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  I had one where it was like, it was like, um, it was like an app where you could figure out where to buy frozen S'mores.

• 48:06Shaan Puri?

  Frozen small locator.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. But then I was like, wait, that doesn't exist yet. So someone has to invent that and then I'm gonna make that up.

• 48:14Shaan Puri?

  Yeah. Do you have any problems or pain points or opportunities you've seen as like, you know, you're a creator? There's tons of companies at Silicon Valley be like, we serve the creator economy.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:24Shaan Puri?

  But I don't think they really know or understand really how a creator's lifestyle is, what they actually want. Have you seen any like pain points or opportunities that you think somebody who's business minded would go do?

• 48:36Speaker 01

  I think AI like has kind of revolutionized. I mean, like it has everything, but I think it's, there's a lot of potential there to help creators. Whether it's with like thumbnails, something as simple as a thumbnail or a title.

• 48:49Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Like I've noticed people using AI to make their thumbnails stand out in crazy ass ways.

• 48:54Shaan Puri?

  What do they even use for that? Like what do they?

• 48:56Speaker 01

  I don't know. But a lot of times like they'll just make it look a little bit cartoony. But then they'll like blend it with the original thumbnail so that it's not obvious, but it's eye catching. You're like, something's weird about that thumbnail, which is what it takes to stand out.

• 49:08Shaan Puri?

  Point of a thumbnail.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  It doesn't, it like, you know, people think that a good thumbnail is like contrast and colors. And it's like, a lot of times that ends up blending in.

• 49:17Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  You just want to look different. So I think AI does that.

• 49:22Shaan Puri?

  I remember in history class at Duke, actually, I learned that Hitler did that. So back in the day, you and Hitler.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:32Shaan Puri?

  Like minds think alike. He, all the posters were colored, like just a print there. Everybody was, and so he, all of his marketing was done in black and white, black and white flyers, posters, whatever. Cause it was just the contrast to everything else. And it was like, yeah.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  So there you go. Take a page out of Hitler's book. When you think about thumbnails.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  But I think.

• 49:50Shaan Puri?

  Cold open. Got it.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 49:52Shaan Puri?

  I'm learning, I'm learning.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  But yeah, I think there's other stuff like, for example, podcasting. I know there's so much with ads that you can do. The most obvious to me being like, just, you know, training some, you know, AI on how we speak. Just feeding it the transcript of our 500 episodes.

• 50:12Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  And then having it write the ads for us in our own voice and then actually synthesizing our voices. And reading the ads for us so we don't actually have to record anything.

• 50:20Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  And then eventually just doing the whole podcast. But like, the ad thing I think is so obvious, it should happen right away, and if it's not already being worked on.

• 50:29Shaan Puri?

  Have you had anybody like, send you a link to like, here's you doing the podcast, or here's you doing the ad?

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:35Shaan Puri?

  It's kinda amazing.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  We did it last time, it was like, uh, I forget the company's name, but I think they were looking for investment. And then I think I didn't reply to the first email, so the second one, they're like, here, here's you, by the way, here's your voice. And it was an app where you could call Elon, for example, and have a conversation with Elon.

• 50:51Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  On, you know, your computer speaker, basically. And so we called me on the podcast, and both of us just talked with me. And it was so fucking scary.

• 51:01Shaan Puri?

  Wow.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  And weird.

• 51:03Shaan Puri?

  You're like, this guy's great.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. This guy's funny. I was like, our job is over.

• 51:07Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  We're not gonna have this job in a year.

• 51:10Shaan Puri?

  You met Elon, right?

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:11Shaan Puri?

  What was it? You went to?

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Went to his house.

• 51:13Shaan Puri?

  You went to his house?

• 51:14Speaker 01

  I partied with him one time.

• 51:15Shaan Puri?

  How was it? Tell me everything. How does that even happen?

• 51:18Speaker 01

  We were, uh, this is the first time I ever met Post Malone. And we're like, you know, good friends now. I wouldn't, I don't say that as a flex, I'm just like, I fucking love the guy, and whenever he hits me up, I'm down to hang out. Uh, but the first time, he DMs me one time. It's not often. He's a fucking rock star, so it's like, I don't hear from him for eight months, and then all of a sudden he'll text me, and he's like, I'm in town. And we're like, I'm like, fuck yeah, let's hang.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  But he hit us up on, or he hit me up on Twitter, and Noel, I think, and was like, hey, hey dad, or something like that, like, I love your videos, or something, and I was like, oh my god. I was a huge fan of his music, so I was like, it's like, so thrilled. And then he was like, I'm gonna, I'm flying back from Australia in three days, or something like that. Like, let's get drinks, and I was like, let's do it. And I think I was at, I was with Kelsey's family at the time, my wife. Like, at a family dinner or something, and he was like, I'm back in town, let's meet at the Rainbow Room in, you know, an hour, and I was like, alright guys, I gotta go. Sorry, Kelsey's family, I gotta dip out.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  So we went and met up with him at the Rainbow Room, and we got fucked up, we were drinking, you know, lemon drops, and and it was just like this surreal experience where we're just like, cause he's very similar, he has the same sense of humor, so we're just like, joking around, riffing, having a great time, and then he looks at his phone, and he's like, Elon, Elon's been texting me, and we're like, haha, yeah, sure, yeah, totally. Just thinking it was a joke, and then he showed us his phone, and it was like Elon Musk, he was like, come over, and we were like... And he was like, should we go over to his house? And we were like, uh, yeah, I mean, you can't really say no to that. Yeah. And so we got in cars and drove to his house.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  And, uh, we got to his house and him and Grimes are like standing on the driveway with lanterns. Like, welcome to my house. Is that like? I don't know. It was fucking, it was so bizarre. The whole thing was from a dream. I swear to God. It was the weirdest night of all time. Was it like a thousand people there or it's like just y'all? No, it was like 10 or not even. It was like Post's crew plus us, these like, you know, hangers on that are just like, hi, include me and shit. And then it was Elon and Grimes and like, uh, I forget who else was there. A couple like producers and like two other people. So we're all sitting around the fire and it's like two or three in the morning.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  And we're just sitting there talking and Post and Elon are talking and he's like nursing a glass of whiskey or something like that. And I remember thinking like this house doesn't have any furniture. It's really weird. And someone was like, well, this is his like pi- party house. His like family house is across the street or something. And I was like, oh, that makes sense. He's like a billionaire. Yeah, exactly. I would have a party house if I could have one. With no furniture? Yeah. And so eventually, and then, and then- So you're all standing? What? So you're all standing? No, no, no. We're sitting outside of a, outside, like around a fire pit, like on some ledge or something like that. I think there were like a couple of chairs. They were very sporadic. Um, and then I remember like we, we, finally it was like 4 a.m. I was like, okay, I gotta go home. Kelsey's asking where I'm at.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  And so we go downstairs, can't figure out which door leads out. And I was like, I don't want to open a random door. And then there's like a spaceship in there and they're like, ah, quick, there's not enough time. Get on.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  So then I go back upstairs and I like lean around the corner and Elon and Grimes are making out. And I was like, hey, I'm not gonna interrupt that. So then we just went downstairs, found the door and then we're sitting, both of us, you know, all are sitting on the curb afterwards, looking up just like, what the fuck? No one's gonna believe this. Like this is the wildest night we've ever had. It was crazy.

• 55:02Shaan Puri?

  That's insane. What's he like?

• 55:04Speaker 01

  He was nice. He was nice. I was pretty drunk, so.

• 55:07Shaan Puri?

  What does one talk about?

• 55:08Speaker 01

  My memory is a little foggy, but I remember him saying some things that were like, okay, he clearly like thinks a little bit differently about things.

• 55:15Shaan Puri?

  What did you, uh, are you like, in, like, what's your, in that moment, because I, whenever I meet celebrities, I make a complete ass out of myself. Um, to the point where I'm like, I don't want to go and I don't want to meet him. I don't want to do it. It's, you know, I start thinking stupid things and I say stupid things.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  I think, I, like, it was one of those things where we were not invited. It was like Post that was invited. So he really wanted to get to know Post. So they were talking and we were sitting beside, just got, kind of going, yeah.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  So, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, totally. You know, just agreeing, agreeing. So we were trying to like, you know, not be a nuisance.

• 55:54Shaan Puri?

  Right. That's a better mentality. That's, that's my new mentality with celebrities.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Just be there.

• 55:59Shaan Puri?

  Not be a nuisance.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  And don't, yeah. Don't get people to wish you weren't there. You know?

• 56:05Shaan Puri?

  That's the new win.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 56:06Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, because my win is like, we're best friends after this. So what I need to do is.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Charm the pants off this guy. No, yeah, I was too scared, honestly.

• 56:14Shaan Puri?

  That's hilarious. Dude, this was fun. Thanks for coming on.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, this was great.

• 56:17Shaan Puri?

  Uh, thanks for doing it.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. And bye.

• 56:20Shaan Puri?

  That's a wrap.