#453 – Javier Milei: President of Argentina – Freedom, Economics, and Corruption

Javier Milei is the President of Argentina. This episode is available in both English and Spanish. Thank you for listening ❤ Check out our sponsors: https://lexfridman.com/sponsors/ep453-sc See below for timestamps, transcript, and to give feedback, submit questions, contact Lex, etc. Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/javier-milei-transcript CONTACT LEX: Feedback – give feedback to Lex: https://lexfridman.com/survey AMA – submit questions, videos or call-in: https://lexfridman.com/ama Hiring – join our team: https://lexfridman.com/hiring Other – other ways to get in touch: https://lexfridman.com/contact EPISODE LINKS: Javier Milei’s X: https://x.com/JMilei Javier Milei’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/javiermilei Javier Milei’s Facebook: https://facebook.com/JavierMileiEconomista SPONSORS: To support this podcast, check out our sponsors & get discounts: Eight Sleep: Temp-controlled smart mattress. Go to https://eightsleep.com/lex https://lexfridman.com/s/eight_sleep-ep453-sc NetSuite: Business management software. Go to http://netsuite.com/lex https://lexfridman.com/s/netsuite-ep453-sc BetterHelp: Online therapy and counseling. Go to https://betterhelp.com/lex https://lexfridman.com/s/betterhelp-ep453-sc AG1: All-in-one daily nutrition drinks. Go to https://drinkag1.com/lex https://lexfridman.com/s/ag1-ep453-sc LMNT: Zero-sugar electrolyte drink mix. Go to https://drinkLMNT.com/lex https://lexfridman.com/s/lmnt-ep453-sc OUTLINE: (00:00) – Introduction (14:44) – Economic freedom (20:09) – Anarcho-capitalism (30:02) – Presidency and reforms (49:22) – Poverty (55:54) – Corruption (1:04:32) – Freedom (1:18:43) – Elon Musk (1:24:11) – DOGE (1:26:13) – Donald Trump (1:32:13) – US and Argentina relations (1:39:22) – Messi vs Maradona (1:48:16) – God (1:50:22) – Elvis and Rolling Stones (1:54:02) – Free market (2:01:03) – Loyalty (2:03:40) – Advice for young people (2:05:06) – Hope for Argentina PODCAST LINKS: – Podcast Website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast – Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr – Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 – RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ – Podcast Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 – Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/lexclips SOCIAL LINKS: – X: https://x.com/lexfridman – Instagram: https://instagram.com/lexfridman – TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@lexfridman – LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/lexfridman – Facebook: https://facebook.com/lexfridman – Patreon: https://patreon.com/lexfridman – Telegram: https://t.me/lexfridman – Reddit: https://reddit.com/r/lexfridman

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lex Fridman?

  The following is a conversation with Javier Malé, the president of Argentina. He is a libertarian, anarcho-capitalist and economist who campaigned with a chainsaw that symbolized his promise to slash the corrupt bureaucracy of the state. He stepped into the presidency one year ago, with the country on the brink of hyperinflation, deep in debt and suffering from mass unemployment and poverty. He took this crisis head-on, transforming one of Latin America's largest economies through pure free-market principles. In just a few months in office, he already achieved Argentina's first fiscal surplus in 16 years,

• 0:44Lex Fridman?

  and not just avoided the hyperinflation, but brought inflation down to its lowest in three years. We discuss all of this in detail, both the successes and the challenges. His depth of knowledge of economic principles, metrics and data was truly impressive and refreshing to hear from a world leader. But even bigger than the economic transformation of Argentina, Javier represents the universal fight against government corruption and the fight for freedom, economic freedom, political freedom, and freedom of speech. He has many critics, many of whom are part of the corrupt establishment he's seeking to dismantle. But many are simply Argentinian citizens,

• 1:27Lex Fridman?

  scared of the pain his radical policies may bring, at least in the short term. But whether one disagrees with his methods or not, no one can deny that his presidency marks one of the most ambitious attempts at economic transformation in modern history, and that Javier Malé is truly a force of nature, combining the rig of an economist with the passion of a revolutionary in the fight for freedom of a nation he loves. Argentina is one of my favorite countries, so I sincerely hope he succeeds. This interview was conducted with the president speaking Spanish and me speaking English, with an interpreter simultaneously translating.

• 2:11Lex Fridman?

  We make the episode available overdubbed and subtitled in both English and Spanish. Thanks to our great friends at Eleven Labs. If you're watching on YouTube, you can switch between English and Spanish by clicking the gear icon, selecting audio track, and then choosing the language. Same with the captions. If you're watching on X, I'll post both Spanish and English versions separately. If you're watching on Spotify or listening elsewhere, I'll probably only post the English version. This is a first time for me doing something like this in a foreign language. It was challenging, but illuminating. I hope to continue talking to many world leaders for two to three hours in this way,

• 2:52Lex Fridman?

  including Volodymyr Zelensky, Vladimir Putin, Narendra Modi, and Xi Jinping. I want to explore who they are, how they think, and how they hope to help their country and humanity flourish. And now, a quick few-second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We've got Eight Sleep for naps, NetSuite for business, BetterHelp for your mind, AG1 for your health, and Element for electrolytes. Choose wisely, my friends. Also, if you want to get in touch with me for whatever reason, go to lexfridman.com/contact. And now, onto the full ad reads.

• 3:34Lex Fridman?

  I try to make these interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep, and it's Pod4Ultra. The Pod part is the thing that measures all the data from your body and cools the bed on each side of the bed separately. And then there's the Ultra, which is the base that goes between the mattress and the bed frame. It can control the positioning of the bed. It's really incredible technology. They sent me some notes that are, in theory, supposed to be helpful. And it says, celebrities who use the Pod: Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Lex Fridman. I am a celebrity.

• 4:17Lex Fridman?

  Dr. Andrew Huberman, Dr. Peter Attia. I didn't get a doctor.

• 4:26Lex Fridman?

  I do think doctor in front of the name is a useful thing for people that obviously got a PhD or medical doctors. I think it's a useful shorthand to sort of let people know that there's some kind of expertise here. But there was a funny moment where I got a chance to get dinner with Andrew Huberman and Peter Attia. And the person that sat us down for dinner said, Dr. Huberman, Dr. Attia, Mr. Friedman. And I kind of teased him about it, but obviously I enjoy being called Mr. Please never call me doctor and also just call me Lex. It really doesn't matter.

• 5:08Lex Fridman?

  And definitely I don't think of myself, nor do I think I am a celebrity. Anywho, they have a special Black Friday offer. If you go to asleep.com/lex and use code Lex, you'll get up to $600 off your Pod4Ultra purchase when bundled. That's asleep.com/lex. This episode is brought to you by NetSuite, an all-in-one cloud business management system. For some reason, I just thought of Marc Andreessen, one of the great minds in Silicon Valley in tech, and I probably should talk to him soon. I've had several conversations with him and I've listened to him on his own podcast and

• 5:50Lex Fridman?

  sort of speak and tweet about just there's a depth of insight about how much should tech entrepreneurs care about government, about the way government works, about how to communicate with politicians, all that kind of stuff in order to have some regulation, but not too much regulation so that I can build epic shit without government getting in the way unnecessarily. Actually, a company, Eleven Labs, that helped with the translation and the dubbing for this episode, incredible group of folks, great engineers, just a great company. I've been having a lot of conversations with the CEO and I think they're doing a truly beautiful thing, breaking down the barriers that language creates and doing that in a way that's accessible to a lot of people.

• 6:35Lex Fridman?

  It's still at this time, very, very expensive, but it's cheaper than it would be done by human and hopefully better and better as the technology improves. I really want to be playing with this technology. But the thing I want to comment on is just a great company and a great business and great set of folks. And so I care about the running, the functioning, the ways of such great companies. How's that for a segue? NetSuite helps you. In fact, it helps over 37,000 companies who have upgraded to NetSuite by Oracle. It helps businesses run all kinds of messy stuff. Take advantage of NetSuite's flexible financing plan at netsuite.com/lex. That's netsuite.com/lex.

• 7:19Lex Fridman?

  This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp, spelled H E L P, help. They figure out what you need and match you with a licensed therapist in under 48 hours. I was really pumped talking to President Javier Millay about life, frankly. I could probably talk to him for many more hours. Such a brilliant, but sort of a kind-hearted, warm person on mic. But I got a chance to interact with him a bunch before and after off mic. And just a warm person, just a human being who saw me, who noticed me, who smiled and just had this way. That's not just maybe a fake charisma.

• 7:59Lex Fridman?

  It's a real human charisma and a nervousness and a joy, all of that together. And then obviously a brilliance, brilliance backed by a set of principles and a desire to see freedom win. And so there is a sense that freedom is a powerful force for the human mind. So a lot of our conversation was focused on economics, but the responsibility and the possibility of taking control of your own destiny is a powerful idea. It's an American idea, and there are many other places in the world that are captivated by that idea.

• 8:39Lex Fridman?

  And he's one of the great elucidators and implementers of that idea. I love Argentina, so I hope that he succeeds. Anyway, all that to say is freedom is good for the mind. And another thing that's good for the mind is BetterHelp. Check them out at betterhelp.com/lex and save on your first month. That's betterhelp.com/lex.

• 9:01Lex Fridman?

  This episode is brought to you by AG1, an all-in-one daily drink to support better health and peak performance. You know what I drink AG1 after? I drink AG1 after a long soccer, AKA football game. I used to play a lot of both soccer and football. Obviously, I played a lot of soccer in childhood. I say that obviously because most of the world, except the United States, that's kind of the sport that every kid plays because it's so accessible. Anyway, I was a big fan of Diego Armando Maradona when I was growing up and just seeing the World Cups in which he played the famous goal of the century

• 9:40Lex Fridman?

  and the head of God goal and just the aura and the genius and the feel he had was mesmerizing and just inspiring for a kid. And when Lionel Messi came around, I think I first saw him when he was in the youth league, 17, maybe 16, 17, I'm not sure. He was just, there was something else. There was just genius there. And I do consider it a huge gift to humanity that, you know, his genius only developed, it grew, it flourished. And it was a tragedy that he didn't win the World Cup for the longest time or didn't help Argentina win the World Cup until very recently, which he did. And he completed sort of, he won everything you could possibly win.

• 10:23Lex Fridman?

  And that was such a beautiful sort of historic moment. The greatest player of all time, Lionel Messi, in my opinion, in most people's opinion. And I do hope to talk to him. This experiment, this chance I got to talk to Javier Malé with an interpreter and all this mess. And I apologize if I screwed it all up in different ways. I really tried, I tried to figure out how we can make it most accessible for both English and Spanish speakers and all that kind of stuff. All that had to come together in just a handful of days. I think like three days I had to figure it all out and never done anything like it. So this sort of emboldened me, gave me confidence that it's possible to do.

• 11:05Lex Fridman?

  And there is, of course, a Spanish speaker that I would very much love to talk to. And his name, like I said, is Lionel Messi. And so now I'm a little bit more confident that that is something I could handle if given the opportunity. And I hope to celebrate him properly if I ever get a chance to speak with him. Anyway, try out AG1, they'll give you one month's supply of fish oil when you sign up at drinkag1.com/lex.

• 11:35Lex Fridman?

  This episode is also brought to you by Element, my daily zero sugar and delicious electrolyte mix. Oh, and I should also say that I don't get a chance to play soccer that much these days, and I'm not sure why. I think for a couple of years, I had a few injuries, like slight injuries related to jiu jitsu, that made sort of the sprinting and maybe the fast turning and the pivoting and the planting of feet, all that kind of stuff, for many hours at a time, difficult. Or rather, I should say, I was trying to let the injuries heal. If I played a lot of soccer, they just wouldn't heal. But soccer is, as a sport, one of my favorite sports to participate in, and as a form of

• 12:18Lex Fridman?

  exercise, it makes time just disappear. Like, I could do sprint after sprint after sprint, running around the field for hours, and like a little kid, still, I just forget time. You don't realize how much calories you burn, you don't think about anything, you don't realize how exhausted you are, you're just full of joy and the competition, the excitement, the... Maybe it puts me right back there to all the football games I've watched as a kid. Like, I'm now pretending to be Madonna, I'm not pretending to be Leonardo Messi, I'm not pretending to be all those sort of superstars and enjoying the fun of it.

• 13:01Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Anyway, before and after, I would probably drink an Element. Get a sample pack for free with any purchase. Try it at drinkelement.com/lex.

• 13:13Lex Fridman?

  By the way, you know, this is the first time I'm trying something like this.

• 13:19Lex Fridman?

  The episode I'm publishing on this audio feed is a English dubbed audio track. And the voice cloning is done by AI. Thank you for our great help. Thank you for the help from the great 11 Labs team. And there's a lot of human in the loop, improving the translation, improving the voice, all that kind of stuff. But I'm not sure what kind of thing makes it a pleasant experience for just audio listeners. And I primarily myself am usually an RSS audio listener. So I really care about this medium of podcasting. It is the original, the main to me, way to consume podcasts.

• 14:05Lex Fridman?

  Freedom.

• 14:07Lex Fridman?

  As Javier said, vive la libertad, carajo.

• 14:12Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I truly believe that RSS is freedom. That's what podcasting is all about. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Javier Malé.

• 14:44Lex Fridman?

  When did you first understand the value of freedom, especially economic freedom?

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Well, actually, I came to understand the ideas of freedom.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  As an economic growth specialist back in the years of 2013 to 2014.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  I could see that per capita GDP statistics over the last 2,000 years of the Christian era essentially looked like a hockey stick, indicating that per capita GDP remained almost constant until around 1800, after which it accelerated sharply. In the same context of that phenomenal increase in productivity and per capita GDP, the population had multiplied sevenfold over the preceding 200 years. So, basically, in economics, that means you get increasing returns, and the presence of increasing returns implies the existence of monopolies,

• 15:48Speaker 01

  concentrated structures, and according to traditional neoclassical economic theory, the presence of monopolies and concentrated structures is not a good thing. But at the same time, one could see that living standards had increased tremendously, and that middle-income people ended up living far better than emperors did in the Roman era,

• 16:14Speaker 01

  and the population had gone from having 95% of people in extreme poverty to less than 10%. And in that context, the question was, how it could be that something that had lifted so many people out of poverty, that had improved human condition so much, could be something bad for economic theory, meaning something was not right? So, in that context, I remember that one of the people who worked on my team suggested I read an article by Murray Newton Rothbard called "Monopoly and Competition." I remember reading it like it was today. And after reading it carefully, I said,

• 16:59Speaker 01

  "Everything I've taught about market structure in the last 20 years in courses on microeconomics is wrong."

• 17:07Speaker 01

  This caused a very strong internal commotion in me, so I called this person who used to work with me, and they recommended a place to buy Austrian School of Economics books. And I remember I bought at least 20 or 30 books, which I went to pick up one Saturday afternoon. And when I visited the bookstore, I was fascinated by all the stuff they had there. So I went back the next day and I started calculating how much money I needed to pay for my dog's food. That's my four-legged child. And how much I needed to spend on the taxi fare and food.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  And then, with what I have left, I spent all of it on more books. And then I started to read very intensively. And I remember, for example, the experience of reading "Human Action", by Mises, and this was a book that I didn't know about. And I remember that. On the following weekend, I started to read this book, right from the first page, and I didn't stop until I finished it, and that was a true revolution in my head. And having the chance to read Austrian authors like Rothbard, Mises, Hayek, Hoppé, and Jesus Huerta de Soto,

• 18:35Speaker 01

  or others like Juan Ramon Rallo, Philip Bagus, and Walter Block, for example. That was very inspirational. And at one point, I got the opportunity to read related to the works of Alberto Venegas Lincejo. And I also had the pleasure and honor to meet him. And today, we are actually friends. So that paved the way for me to approach the ideas of freedom. And another book that was a very significant influence and impact on me was "The Principles of Political Economics", by Menger. It was truly eye-opening.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Or let's say, for reading Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, these were things that really...

• 19:27Speaker 01

  That really challenged all of my former thinking. I had a vague idea and poor about the Austrian School. The only thing I had read about the Austrian School until then had been Money and Time, a very good book by Garrison, but... But now that I understand a little bit more about Austrian economics, I know that it was rather poor. This doesn't mean that the book isn't good, but there were a whole lot of things to read that ended up being truly fascinating.

• 20:09Lex Fridman?

  So from that, what is now today? And maybe you can talk about the evolution is your philosophy, economics philosophy. You've described yourself as an anarcho-capitalist, market anarchist, libertarian. That's the ideal. And then maybe in practice, in reality, you've said that you're more of a minarchist. So lay it all out. What's your economics philosophy today?

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Strictly speaking, I am an anarcho-capitalist. I despise the state government. I despise violence. Let us suppose we take the definition of liberalism. I usually use the definition of liberalism given by Alberto Venegas Lynchijo, which is very much in line with the definition of John Locke, which essentially matches the definition by Alberto Benegas Lynch Jr., who said that liberalism is the unrestricted respect for the life project of others based on the principle of non-aggression and in defense of the right to life, liberty, and property.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  So I frame all of the discussions within those terms. And the fact is that when you get to that notion, I would dare say that you become an anarcho-capitalist de facto. And what that describes, it is an idea which represents my ideal world. I mean, that is the ideal world. Now, real life poses a whole lot of restraints. And some of those you can lift, and those restrictions and others you can't. So, in real life, I am a minarchist. I advocate for minimizing state size. I try to remove as many regulations as possible.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  In fact, that is what I used to say during my campaign, and let's say that is what I'm now carrying out. We have just carried out the largest structural reform in Argentine history. It is a structural reform that is eight times larger than Menem's, which had been the largest structural reform in history. And we did that with fifteen percent of the representatives and ten percent of the senators. Furthermore, we have a deregulation ministry where basically every day we eliminate between one and five regulations. On the other hand, we have three thousand two hundred additional structural reforms pending to the point that, the day we finish all these reforms, we will be the freest country on the planet,

• 22:43Speaker 01

  with the consequences they have in terms of well-being. Think about this: when Ireland started market reforms just over forty years ago, it was the poorest country in Europe. Today, its GDP per capita is fifty percent higher than that of the United States. So, this, um, I have a current situation. And what I am constantly looking for, whether from my academic works and my outreach notes and books, is the world we have today, that every day we are closer, that every day we gain more freedom. Because there are some very interesting things here.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  First, I would like to quote Milton Friedman. There is a moment when they do an interview with Milton Friedman and they ask him about liberals. And then he says that there are three types of liberals. There are the classical liberals, where for example Adam Smith or Milton Friedman himself could fit. Some say that Hayek could fit into that category. For me, Hayek is a minarchist. Then you have the minarchists where you could clearly find in that place. Mises, Hayek. One could find in philosophical terms, Nozick. And basically, Ayn Rand.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  And at one point Milton Friedman, based on his own son. He says, "But if you look closely, there are some who are anarchists." Let's say, probably from my point of view, the person who has been the greatest inspiration in my life is essentially Murray Newton Rothbard. So therefore, there are two dimensions. One is where I want to go. And the topic is where I stand. So the most important thing is to try each day to advance further toward that ideal of anarcho-capitalism. In that sense, sometimes

• 24:53Speaker 01

  we face strong and harsh criticism regarding that ideal vision. I think that's the Nirvana fallacy. If you compare yourself against paradise, everything is horrible and miserable, but you don't live in paradise. You live on earth. Basically, what you need to understand is something called the state conditions. Let's suppose that you don't like rectangular tables. You prefer circular tables. Now, the reality is, I have only a few hours until I go and catch my flight.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  And the table is rectangular. You like a circular table, a round one, but there isn't one. What you have is a rectangular table. So either we do the interview here, or we just can't do it. So what do you do? You adapt to the current conditions. This is what there is now. So then you have some restrictions that you can change and others that you cannot. The idea is to modify all the ones that can be changed in the short term and start working on those that can be modified in the medium or long term. For example. For example, if you really like round tables, perhaps the next interview we may do at a round table, we're going to try and solve it.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  But today it's something that we couldn't possibly solve. So that's basically the idea, right? Let's say it's about understanding that some restrictions you can't change, others you can, and there are institutional restrictions too.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  There are many anarcho-capitalists who are dedicated to criticizing, and incredibly, they do so with more violence towards liberals.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  And many of them actually criticize me, which truly makes no sense because it is precisely the Nirvana fallacy. But the reality is that, uh... Look, in Argentina, for example, the most popular sport is soccer. When you go to watch an Argentina match, it is beautiful. The stands are full and they're all painted with sky blue and white colors. There is a lot of joy. People sing songs that are very fun, that are very distinctive, very... It's very much part of Argentine folklore, so to speak. But you see?

• 27:34Speaker 01

  That beautiful show is external. That is to say, it does not determine the outcome. You place the ball in the middle of the field, and no matter how much people shout, the ball doesn't move. The one who moves the ball and scores the goals is Messi. So what do I mean? If you don't get involved and don't get into it, no, you don't do anything. So, I mean...

• 27:59Speaker 01

  What do I know? Is that there are many liberals, libertarians, and anarcho-capitalists who are really useless? Because all they do is criticize, let's say, those of us who wanna lead the world toward the ideas of freedom. And what they don't realize is that power is a zero-sum game. And if we don't have it, then the left will have it. Therefore, if you level your harshest criticism at those in your own ranks, you end up being subservient to socialism, probably. And also, for instance, you have cases of strong hypocrisy, let's say. I have seen cases of agorists.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  I mean, it's the anarcho-capitalists who criticize Rothbard because he said that you have to get into politics, otherwise the socialists will advance. And it's interesting because some of them, I have seen them criticizing, proposing agorism. And I remember one of them, one day, uh, the police showed up, and honestly, he was peeing himself. So, I mean, it's very easy to criticize, propose, and suggest. But if he was truly such an agonist, he should have been willing to endure going to jail.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  However, when it was time to face the consequences of the idea he was promoting, he froze, wet his pants, and ended up, let's say, accepting all the restrictions because clearly it was better to be out of jail than in jail. But in doing so, he sold out his ideas. So it seems to me that, no, not taking into account the restrictions...

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Of the situation only serves to be functional to socialism. Because all it does is strike against one's own.

• 30:02Lex Fridman?

  So you became president 11 months ago. Can you again describe some of the actions you took? For example, you cut half the number of government ministries, layoffs, removed price controls. It would be interesting to lay out the first steps and what's next.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  If you allow me, I will first give you a description of the situation we received. And based on that, I will tell you each of the things we did. When we first took office. Basically, what we found was that in the first week of December, inflation was rising at a rate of 1% per day, which means 3,700% annually. In the first half of December, it had accelerated to 7,500% annually. When you look at wholesale inflation in December of last year,

• 31:04Speaker 01

  it was 54%, which if annualized would equate to an inflation rate of 17,000% per year. And in addition, Argentina, for the previous 10 years, had not been growing, with a drop in GDP per capita of approximately 15%. And the reality was that nearly 50% were living in poverty. Now later, I will get deeper into that discussion. And the reality is that we had a fiscal deficit which amounted to 15% of GDP.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Five points were in the treasury, ten points were in the central bank, which was endogenous monetary issuance. And the reality is that we also had interest-bearing liabilities at the central bank equivalent to four monetary bases, maturing in one day, meaning we could have quintupled the amount of money in one day. We had peso-denominated maturities amounting to the equivalent of ninety billion dollars. The central bank had negative net currency foreign reserves, minus twelve billion dollars. We had commercial debts in the central bank equivalent to fifty billion dollars.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  There were company dividends held back amounting to ten billion dollars. Therefore, if we, if we had instantly opened up, you see, I say we are liberal libertarians, we are not liberal fools. That's what some anarchist liberals suggested, meaning that we basically open everything on the first day. So in that, in that context, of course, if we had done that, we would have encountered hyperinflation. Therefore, that would have led to the number of poor people being around ninety-five percent, and probably,

• 33:14Speaker 01

  and by December, the Peronist Party would have organized supermarket looting and would have done all sorts of things, and would have probably been ousted. And by the first part of the year, the Peronists would have gone back to office.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  So to us, it was crucial to end fiscal deficit. One of the things we promised during the campaign had been to reduce the number of ministries. And indeed, we reduced to less than half the number of ministries, because we went to nine ministries, today we have eight.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  We have also laid off a large number of civil employees. Today, I can say that we have already dismissed about 50,000 of them.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  And we practically don't renew any contracts unless the positions are absolutely necessary. At the same time, we have stopped public works and we have eliminated discretionary transfers to the provinces.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  We have also diluted public sector wages. Also, we have eliminated economic subsidies by restoring utility rates to the right levels.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  And well, eh, well, and in that, let's say, in this context, we achieved fiscal balance as far as the treasury is concerned. This is very important because in the last 123 years, Argentina had a deficit for 113 of them. And in the 10 years, it did not have a deficit because it was not paying the debt. So that was absolutely false. And they told us it would be impossible to do that. We had planned to do so within a year. And they said it wasn't possible to adjust by more than one percentage point.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  And we achieved fiscal balance in the month of January, that is, the first month of administration. At the same time, we also cut social plans linked to intermediation. This is very important because we knew we were going to make a very tough adjustment. And we knew that this was going to have a cost in social terms. And we knew that we had to offer support during the first month, I mean, the first quarter and second quarter in office.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  One of the things we did was to eliminate what are known as poverty managers, that is intermediaries. Basically, people have a card through which they receive assistance, but it happens that they had to provide a counter service, and that counter service was verified by a group called the Pica Teros. So, in that context, when they were going to sign, the counter service took away half of the money. So, by removing that payoff, they stopped extorting them, stopped stealing their money, and with the same amount of money, they received double the resources. And of course, we also provided an additional boost.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  So, let's say that this is related to the five adjustment points in the treasury. Now, what happens? As we began to achieve fiscal balance and no longer needed to issue money to finance ourselves, and as we also met interest payments and some capital repayments, one of the things that happened is that the debt market began to be recreated. So, we were able to take debt out of the central bank and transfer it to the treasury, where it should have always been. And that meant an adjustment of approximately 10% of GDP. Everyone said this would be impossible and couldn't be fixed. Essentially, what we did was implement a fiscal adjustment

• 37:19Speaker 01

  at the central bank amounting to 10% of GDP. So, if you ask me, it's clear that we have not only made the biggest fiscal adjustment in the history of humanity, because we made a fiscal adjustment of 15 points of the GDP, but also, most of that went back to the people as less seniorage, as a lower inflation rate. It's true that we temporarily raised the country tax, but we lowered it in September, and now in December, we're going to eliminate it. Today, for example, we also announced that in December, we are eliminating import taxes. In fact, in that regard...

• 38:01Speaker 01

  What you have is that we return to the people thirteen and a half points of GDP, because the real tax burden is the size of the state. So while back in December, we were discussing hyperinflation. Today, we are discussing thirty-year loans. In other words, all those resources that the national government used to take are now back in the private sector. And that's what has allowed it to be very dynamic. And this has two very strong impacts. The first one is that if you look at wholesale inflation, it went down from fifty-four percent to two percent. So it went down by twenty-seven times. It was divided into twenty-seven.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  So we had inflation at a rate of seventeen thousand percent annually, and it's now close to about twenty-eight percent a year. But it's not only that. You could consider consumer inflation. The latest consumer inflation rate was two point seven percent. Now, it happens that we, essentially due to a matter that is related to the central bank's balance sheets and also due to the debt stocks, we still have controls in place and we are eliminating restrictions day by day. Now, the interesting thing is that we have a two percent monthly day valuation standard, and there's international inflation, of course,

• 39:31Speaker 01

  which means that you then have to subtract two and a half points from the inflation observed by the consumer. This indicates that inflation in Argentina, the true inflation, not the induced one, but the actual monetary inflation, is zero point two percent per month. At zero point two percent per month, this equates to two point four percent annually. What I'm saying is, the original discussion was about whether inflation could reach seventeen thousand percent.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Now, we are bringing inflation down to levels of 2.5% annually, and that is amazing. And we achieved this by considering a number of factors. The first one is that we did not experience a previous hyperinflation, which would have simplified the process of implementing a stabilization program. Typically, when hyperinflation occurs, monetary assets are diluted, leading to a natural restoration of demand. And besides, we did not resort to any expropriation. For example, before the Convertibility Plan, which was the most successful program in Argentina's history, Argentina experienced two instances of hyperinflation.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  During Alfonse's administration, inflation reached 5,000%, and under Amenem, it was 1,200%. Additionally, there was the Bonex Plan, under which debt was exchanged on a compulsory basis. In other words, what we did instead was clean up the central bank balance sheet.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  So with that, we cleaned up the central bank's balance sheet. We cleared a loss of $45 billion, all voluntarily. And the most amazing thing is that we did it in just six months. And at the same time, we have not controlled prices, nor have we fixed the exchange rate. And this is very important. All previous stabilization programs, in an effort to show quick results, used to do this. What they would do is, before announcing the plan, they would adjust the rates, and once the rates were adjusted, they would launch the plan. But in our case, we couldn't afford that luxury, so we had to implement it on the go.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  And also, over the past few months, that is to say, companies brought in rates that covered only about 10%, whereas today, they cover 80%, so you get the picture. Just imagine the adjustment we are making. And in that sense, it is also incredible what we have achieved. Because if we were to work with the inflation we have in our country today, considering the exchange rate situation, the figures are even better than during the Convertibility Program, which was the most successful economic program in Argentina's history.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  And in fact, there is an article called "Passing the Buck", which is by Sharado de la Paulera Bozzoli and Iregoín, that demonstrates that Menem's first government was the best government in history. And basically, it argues two things: in the success of the stabilization of the convertibility program. So if you take a closer look, when you examine it carefully, when you account for all these factors, our disinflation process is actually much more genuine. And not only that, it's also much deeper. "We restored freedoms to Argentinians while simultaneously implementing a structural reform eight times larger.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  And we accomplished this with only... with 15% of the representatives, 10% of the senators, and within the first six months of government. In other words, our deregulation agenda continues daily, and we still have 3,200 structural reforms pending. This will ultimately make Argentina the freest country in the world." Moreover, to have a sense of magnitude, the reforms that we already have made with the executive order 7023 and with the basis law, we have actually jumped 90 places in terms of economic freedom. What this means is that today, Argentina has institutions similar to those of Germany,

• 43:55Speaker 01

  France, Italy, and we obviously want this to continue. And let's say, we are going to surpass, no doubt, the levels of economic freedom that Ireland reached in its best moment. And not only that, we're going to exceed the levels of economic freedom of Australia, New Zealand, and Switzerland. We are undoubtedly going to be the freest country in the world. And this... And this means that thanks to what we've done today, we are on a path that allows us to multiply our per capita GDP by 2.5 times when you apply the relevant correction. And this, of course, is something very interesting because it implies a huge increase in well-being.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  And furthermore, today, the Argentinean economy is already strongly and amazingly recovering. And we can say analysts' hypotheses were suggesting that next year we would be growing between 5 and 6%. Today, JPMorgan has now corrected, or let's say revised the projections upwards. And besides, when we normalized the price situation, the true poverty rate came up and it was 57% in January. Today, it is at 46%, meaning we lowered poverty by 11 percentage points. Let's say, I mean, it seems truly like a miracle. And not only that, but actually not a single job was lost in the process.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  When it comes to all of this inflation reduction process, people said that our economy and economic activity would collapse. And actually, when you look at the de-seasonalized data, you see that in August, there was a recovery that took us back to December levels, to December levels. That means that in the year, we made the largest fiscal adjustment in the history of humanity. We will end up with less inflation, fewer poor people, better real wages, and additionally, a GDP higher than what we started with. And if you look at it in dollars, I can assure you that the numbers are phenomenal. Because basically, today, the dollar is below the levels

• 46:07Speaker 01

  we had when we took office. So the reality is that, and all of this, when you take my popularity levels and the government's acceptance levels, today, they are above the moment we assumed office. If you know that the moment of maximum popularity is when you take office. Therefore, this means that far from resting on our laurels with this, we're going for more reforms. We're going to deepen the reforms, and I tell you, we won't stop until Argentina is the freest country in the world.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Furthermore, a recent work by an Argentinian economist named Juan Pablo Nicolini was presented at the central bank's monetary meetings. And he works at the Federal Reserve. And it's interesting because he shows that only on the basis of what we have done in fiscal matters, it ensures that in the span of 10 years, we can double the GDP per capita, meaning that Argentina could grow at rates of 7% annually, which is very much, very much, and that has strong consequences in terms of improving quality of life, reducing poverty, reducing indigence.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Therefore, if during the worst moment our image didn't suffer and we stayed strong in our ideas, now that everything is working much better, why should we change? On the contrary, we are ready to redouble the bet, to redouble our efforts because we've done things that no one else has done. I will give you an example. There's something that seems trivial, but there's what's called the single-paper ballot. Argentina used to vote with huge ballots, which were, above all, very costly. And that reform, it never...

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Let's say it wasn't done because it always harmed the ruling party. So everyone talked about going to the single-paper ballot, but no one did it when they were in power. They didn't want to implement it because they preferred to commit fraud or use some kind of trickery to avoid applying that rule that makes the election more competitive. Well, what's interesting, we sent that law and it was approved. What's more, now we are finishing with the open, simultaneous, and mandatory primaries because it was a mechanism by which politics was also stealing. We are eliminating the financing of political parties.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  If you look, we have reduced the fiscal pressure by 15 points to the Argentinians. We are restoring freedoms with a deep set of structural and regulatory reforms. That is, I think that any sensible liberal...

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Could perceive we are already delivering a wonderful government. In fact, it's the best government in the history of Argentina. If the best had been that of Menem, we've already outpaced him.

• 49:22Lex Fridman?

  Maybe you can explain to me the metrics of poverty and unemployment. As you said, unemployment went down, real unemployment went down, real poverty went down. But even that aside, what have been the most painful impacts of these radical reforms? And how many of them are required in the short term to have a big positive impact in the long term?

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Let's take it step by step, all right? That is, we, in fact, we started to do things right. Therefore, we did not create poverty. The poverty was an inherited poverty. The point is that what we did was to reveal it. I'll try to explain it with an example that I think clarifies what's happening in Argentina. Argentina was an economy that had a total price controls. It had a fiscal deficit which was financed through money printing, just for you, to give you an idea.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  In the last year, Argentina financed 13 points of the gross domestic product with money printing. In other words, a real disaster. So that situation provoke this artificially demand and puts pressure on prices. The issue is that price controls are applied additionally over the prices that they enter the price index with which inflation was, I'm not saying they were lying about it, it was distorted. And since Argentina measures poverty and indigence by income line, then what happens? That distorted the true levels of poverty, of course.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  But that's not the only effect. I mean, let's say the real poverty levels were higher, quite a bit higher, than those shown by the previous government, which showed them at 41% and also did so on a six-monthly basis. So if you, let's say, have a growing trend, they are actually leaving you a bomb and you don't see it. Because, let's say, basically, the indicator was measured.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  With a delayed form, but not only that, imagine that you are also given, you are in the middle of an island,

• 51:49Speaker 01

  alone,

• 51:51Speaker 01

  and they give you one million dollars, what can you do with that? You cannot do anything because you cannot buy anything. It's the same as if someone tells you that the price of glasses is ten dollars, but when you want to buy it, it's not available. Actually, there's a joke told by an Argentinian professor named Juan Carlos de Pablo, who says that a man goes to a bazaar and asks for a vase. Then he says to him, "Well, I want that vase. How much would you charge me?" Then he says, "Five thousand dollars." "Oh, okay, five thousand dollars, but why five thousand dollars? If across the street it's one thousand." He says, "Well, go buy it across the street for a thousand."

• 52:36Speaker 01

  "Ah, there's none for a thousand." "Well, then here, when there's more, it'll also cost a thousand." In other words, prices at which they are available. So, what happens? When you are faced with that situation, the supermarket shelves were empty. So, what was the point of having a price at which you couldn't buy anything? You left those prices, the shelves were empty, so the statistics showed that you were much better. But the reality is, you couldn't buy anything. You couldn't make it happen. So, if you left the situation as it was, people were going to starve because they couldn't buy anything. Yes, they had a certain amount of money that could supposedly buy certain goods, but those goods were not available. What is the only thing you can do to save people?

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Make the prices transparent and allow products to reappear. Well, when you make the prices transparent, you also make transparent the cost of the basic food basket and the total basic basket, meaning the poverty line, sorry, the indigence line and the poverty line respectively. And when you do that, clearly you will see a jump in poverty. That brought poverty up to fifty-seven percent. Now, Argentina found its activity floor in the month of April. From that moment, Argentina began to invent a cyclical recovery. Real wages have been growing every month above inflation. Therefore, nominal wages are beating inflation. In fact, we are already at levels similar to those we had in November.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  The same goes for pensions. Moreover, also, let's say, there is a rebound in activity due to the recovery of the stock cycle. Therefore, this is also contributing to more and better paid jobs. In fact, this is so strong and evident that the wages growing the most are in the informal sector. This means that poverty and extreme poverty are decreasing much faster than we imagined. But not only that, by eliminating inflation, you remove the inflationary tax. But the real burden is the fiscal deficit, which was 15 points of the GDP. Okay, we temporarily raised the country tax. Now we lower it, but we return that to the Argentinians.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  We gave back 15 points of the GDP. Not only that, but also, when you eliminate inflation, you remove the distortion of relative prices. Therefore, the allocation of resources is much better. Not only that, but also with the strong fiscal adjustment we made, we have reduced the country risk from 3,000 basis points to 770. Today, Fitch raised Argentina's rating to triple C. So, what do I mean? That translates into a lower country risk and interest rates, and that generates an increase in investment, also generates an increase in consumption. In other words, the Argentinian economy

• 55:33Speaker 01

  is currently in an absolutely flourishing moment. And how is that sustained in the long term? With structural reforms, which we implement daily, deregulating the economy and introducing new laws that free Argentinians from the many oppressive measures that have burdened it over the past 100 years?

• 55:54Lex Fridman?

  You've spoken about the caste, the corrupt political establishment. So there's a lot of powerful people and groups that are against your ideas. What does it take to fight when so much power is against you?

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Look, we have fought against corruption like never before in Argentina.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  In fact, when we took office, for example, there were about nine hundred roadblocks per year. That is, people who made a habit of blocking the streets. They prevented free movement. And besides, they were given social plans, and they were given a lot of money. If you remember, when I started by explaining the cuts, one of the things I said was that we removed the middlemen of poverty. In other words, the managers of poverty, those who lived by stealing from the poor. Well, that is a huge source of corruption. In fact, when we did that,

• 56:57Speaker 01

  two days later, one of the most renowned and influential picateros called for a demonstration. He claimed that fifty thousand people would attend because he was actually expecting one hundred thousand. So he wanted to showcase it as a success. And so then, let's say with the decision made in Human Capital to cut their funding, the anti-blockade protocol was also enacted, where those who blocked the streets wouldn't receive welfare benefits, and those who broke the law would go to jail. All of that.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  And also, we were informing this through

• 57:41Speaker 01

  transportation channels. Well, in that march, they expected to have one hundred thousand people there. And actually, it turned out to be three thousand people.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  And from that point on, they didn't block the streets anymore. We also evidently put an end to that corruption. One of the things that also generated a lot of corruption was public works. Another thing that led to significant...

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Acces de corrupción fueron los transferes discrecionarios a provincias. En general, estos transferes fueron realizados a las provincias con una cuenta tan obscureza como sea posible. Así que, el gobierno nacional, en colusión con los gobernadores, digamos, el dinero terminó siendo usado para otras cosas. No solo eso, con lo que ya hemos hecho muchas cosas. Además, el Ministerio del Capital humano siempre se está presentando en tribunales, no en los medios de comunicación. Acces de corrupción como nunca antes en la historia argentina. No solo eso, sino también en términos de condenar la corrupción, es decir,

• 58:51Speaker 01

  hemos hecho, por ejemplo, hace dos días, se condenó Cristina Fernández de Kirchner por corrupción. Quiero decir, debido a la corrupción, y el día siguiente, es decir, ayer, quitamos sus pensiones privilegiadas. Al mismo tiempo, por ejemplo, hemos descubierto que el kirchnerismo usó pensiones de discapacidad para actos de corrupción. Por ejemplo, hay una ciudad que tiene más pensiones de discapacidad que la gente.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  En otras palabras, para daros una idea de las cosas que se hacen en Argentina. Y también en Argentina, hemos restaurado la libertad al juez. No presionamos al juez. Y esto es tan cierto que durante mi gobierno, no solo fue condenada Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, sino también los dos ataques terroristas llevados a cabo por Irán fueron condenados.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Así que, si hay un gobierno que realmente lucha contra la corrupción, es nosotros. No solo eso, sino también con cada desregulación, es un privilegio que quitamos, ya sea de un político, una empresa prebendaria, o un grupo de poder. Eso es también muy poderoso. Nadie en Argentina ha luchado contra la corrupción de la manera que hemos. De hecho, voy a pasar a algo que es profundamente corrupto y uno de mis grandes batallas.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  The corruption of the media and social media?

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  That is to say, I removed the official advertising, that's why you will see, that even though we generate wonderful news, every week, in large quantity, the media speak terribly. In other words, they demand to have a monopoly on their microphone. That is, they are entitled to insult, hurt, offend, and they don't want anyone to bother them. And they expect me not to even respond. That's why a large part of journalism in Argentina hates the X Network. And that's why we, the liberal libertarians, love the X Network. Because we can all say what we want. However, let's say, these supposed journalists who defend freedom of expression,

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  actually what they want is to censor the ideas they don't like. And of course, because they are leftist, because they are woke, because they can't stand the competition. Because if they had to fight face-to-face, hand-to-hand, on a level playing field, when it comes to ideas, they would lose because they were a failure in the economic, social, and cultural aspects. And also, we must not forget that those murderers called socialists killed 150 million people. So they clearly cannot fight on equal terms. Therefore, they demand that social networks have censorship and that the truth cannot be told to them. Because when you tell a socialist the truth, they cry, claiming it's hate speech.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  No, it's not hate speech, it's that you are useless people who have ruined the planet. They have made the planet much worse. Unfortunately, today, thanks to social media, especially due to the enormous and brave work of Elon Musk and the role of Twitter... Today, X, right? Allows information to flow, which makes it possible, let's say, to expose politicians and also expose the media. And that's why journalists in Argentina are so violent. Why? Because before, they could, for instance, a journalist went, and for example, he would go to a person

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  and he would throw a folder at them and say, "If you don't give me X amount of money, I am going to publish all of this and tarnish your reputation. And I know for a fact, a case of a journalist who carried out this extortion twice to a businessman. That businessman told him that he wasn't gonna pay. And evidently, the journalist did it. Obviously, they went to court, there was a trial, and that journalist lost both times. But that process is very slow, and in the meantime, they smeared. So since the justice system takes a long time, so what is the problem? The problem is that, in the meantime, your life got dirtied. So why can journalists do all this?

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Well, that's why they dislike X. They dislike social media, they dislike the new form of communication, because it took away their monopoly over the microphone. And by taking away the monopoly over the microphone, it removed the economic benefits of extortion. So clearly, that's another battle I'm fighting. You read a newspaper in Argentina, and eighty-five percent of what you read is a lie. That is to say, the fundamental characteristic of most journalists, not all, but the vast majority of journalists in Argentina, with some honorable exceptions, is that they are liars, slanderers, and defamers. And if the monopoly they demand were still in place,

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  that they want to reign again, I have no doubt that they would demand money in exchange for silence, because that's what they are. They are extortionists, they are thieves, they are corrupt. And then, of course, obviously, when you take away a privilege from a sector, they get upset. Well, welcome to freedom.

• 1:04:31Lex Fridman?

  So you're not only fighting for economic freedom, you're fighting for freedom of speech?

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Exactly. I fight for freedom in all aspects of life. That is to say, one of the things that seems most interesting to me

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  is that when the Berlin Wall fell, it's true that officially fell in the year 1989, but the reality is that the wall, or socialism, fell in the year 1961, when they had to build the wall. I mean, they built it because people were leaving communist Germany for capitalist Germany. They realized that those on the western side were much better off.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  And of course, to prevent people from leaving. They put, what a wonderful system, right? So, I mean, they had to trap people, they couldn't let them go. I mean, these are such wonderful ideas that they had to apply them at gunpoint. It's quite, well, it's no coincidence that they killed 150 million human beings. So, what happened then? The official fall of the wall in the year 1989 made it clear that socialism had failed.

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  In that context, the socialists,

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  they moved the discussion of class struggle in economics and took it to other areas. So, for example, socialism, or what is of the 21st century, or cultural Marxism, or post-Marxism, whatever definition you want, is to take class struggle to different aspects of life. For example, one of the aspects of life where you, let's say, have this, is in gender ideology. I mean, it's incredible, because the first ones to defend equality before the law were the liberals. The first to defend women's rights were the liberals. Jeremy Bentham, in the year 1750,

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  was the first to demand equality before the law for women. I mean, the cause of equality, equality before the law for women, and equality of rights, the first ones who advocated for this were the liberals, did you know? However... ¿Qué hace la izquierda? Simplemente la radicalizan y luego se mueve hacia lo que se llama chauvinismo femenino. El chauvinismo femenino es, digamos, la lucha contra los hombres. Y entonces, quiero decir, ¿cómo lo hacen? Lo hacen asignando derechos. Pero cuando asignas un derecho, alguien tiene que pagar por ello. Y eso tiene consecuencias. Y en general, digamos, esto siempre sucede.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  Las consecuencias son que los resultados son peores que los que tenías antes. Quiero decir, en cualquier intervención estatal, el resultado consecutivo es a menudo peor que lo que tuviste originalmente. Así que eso es una cosa. Y no solo eso, pero el otro lado de esto es la agenda ambiental, que establece el hombre contra la naturaleza, involucrando todos los aspectos del environmentalismo y todo lo relacionado con el cambio climático. En otras palabras, no pueden soportar ninguna discusión seria. Por lo tanto, todas las políticas ambientales no son más que una excusa para recoger impuestos. Así que un grupo de burócratas parasitarios pueden vivir a costa de otros y financiar ideas tristes.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Donde la idea más triste de todas es que no hay espacio para todos en el planeta Tierra. Eso es, una idea que fracasó con Malthus. Al principio del siglo XIX, una idea asesina que también se aplicó por los egipcios contra los judíos, y esto está famosomente grabado en el libro de Shemot o Exodus.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  O, por ejemplo, otra cosa es Black Lives Matter. Eso es, personas negras contra personas blancas o personas indígenas contra las comunidades establecidas. O, quiero decir, todo lo relacionado con agendas LGBT. Definitivamente, estas son algunas de las formas en las que, ya sabes, el socialismo extendió la lucha de clases hacia otros aspectos de la sociedad, creando divisiones y fomentando la engaño con el único propósito de absorber impuestos. Quiero decir, ¿qué hacía el Ministerio de Mujeres en Argentina? ¿Logró reducir un solo feminicidio? No, ninguno en absoluto. El número de feminicidios explotó igual.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  De hecho, el presidente feminista más feminista en la historia argentina, el Sr. Alberto Fernández, solía derrotar a su esposa. That is such a strange feminist. I mean, well, so within the ranks of feminists, let's say, you will essentially find the largest number of rapists and women beaters. And it's quite interesting what they do. Their hypocrisy is truly striking. It's not just about that, though, I mean. The battle is on three fronts. You have the economic front, which is free enterprise capitalism.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  Then we have the political level. Currently, the system that the world has designed is a republican liberal democracy with checks and balances. And, I mean, at the cultural battle level, notice that socialism has been very successful in the cultural battle. It has been very successful politically because it was able to translate that political battle in winning many elections. But why is it falling apart? Why? Because it produces misery and because the economic system is a disaster, so people eventually realize that it is making things worse for them.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  Liberal libertarians are very good when it comes to economics. Yes, and those good economic results can actually lead, well, to the generation of solid political processes. But what happened? The liberals neglected the cultural battle. Much of the blame was placed on Fukuyama when he said, "This is the end of history." No, it was not the end of history because the following year, in 1990, the socialists gathered at the Sao Paulo Forum and based on the ideas of Gramsci, designed a strategy to infiltrate the media, culture, and education, which ended up changing the entire discourse. And they established that what they said was politically correct,

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  and that any idea outside of it was to be considered reactionary and had to be censored or even persecuted. And they claimed to be the ones defending freedom, even though they were the ones persecuting people. It's the same with journalists who get upset with Twitter. They say they defend freedom, but can't stand it when those who think differently speak. Is that freedom? Yes, for them, but not for those who think differently. That's not freedom, that's fascism. Then, what do we say? Then we must fight on the economic front, and I believe we are implementing an extremely successful economic program that is being recognized worldwide. In fact, the other night, the president-elect, Donald Trump,

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  indeed gave recognition for the achievements we are having in Argentina and the speed at which we have done it. At the same time, you have to fight the political battle because, well, soccer matches are not won by shouting from the stands. They are won by playing on the field. But that alone is not enough because you have to, let's say, you need to convey to society the values of capitalism, the free market, what liberalism is, the value of freedom, right? And when you succeed in that,

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  then we will indeed be able to advance steadily. If you don't fight the cultural battle, what happened in Chile will happen to you. They had economic success. It was, let's say, sustained over time, but at some point it collapsed. Why did it collapse? Because they hadn't fought the cultural battle. Then socialism, little by little, took control of institutions in education and the media. So, they took over the media and culture, and on that basis, they attacked and broke up the system. And then they found themselves with increasing doses of socialism, and the only thing socialism generates is poverty. Therefore, what you must keep in mind

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  is that you have to fight the battles on all fronts.

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  And if you don't keep that in mind, I can tell you, are headed towards collapse.

• 1:13:34Lex Fridman?

  Like you said, in this fight against corruption, you are challenging some very powerful people, a powerful establishment.

• 1:13:43Lex Fridman?

  Are you ever afraid for your life? Potential assassinations?

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  No. Tell me, what good is it to live life?

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  I mean, in slavery?

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  Look, there is a song by a Spanish singer called Nino Bravo.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Just to be clear, he has already left this earth so we can say he has passed on to the beyond.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  The song is called Libre. And the song, it tells the story of Peter Fetter, an 18-year-old boy, who, when the separation was made,

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  and I mean, the construction of the Berlin Wall begins. His family ends up on the western side, and he accidentally ends up on the eastern side.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  And for a whole year, he plans his escape to the western side, right? And in that context, when he tries to escape, he gets murdered.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  So, really, what is the point of life if it's not in freedom, right?

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  I mean, what is the point of living without fighting for your values? If I am willing to give my life for my values, then what is the point of living without freedom? Look, can I tell you something interesting that happened to me here in the United States?

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  I, let's say, back in the year 1998,

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  I came to the United States to take a series of courses to improve my English,

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  which I never use in formal terms, because as president, as you can imagine, if I make a mistake, I can create a serious situation.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  Fortunately, I have an interpreter who is a superstar. And if I make a mistake, even in Spanish, he corrects me in the version of the other language.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  And so, back then, in that year, I went to San Francisco,

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  and I visited Alcatraz.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  You're young, but, uh, I mean, the visit was an audio tour. You got a walkman, and you would choose the different tracks and listen to the story. The most interesting thing is that the Alcatraz tour ended in the recreation yard, where the basketball court, exercise areas, and all recreational facilities were located. So, anyone would have thought that this was the best part of Alcatraz. And yet, what they said in the guide was that that was the hardest part for the inmates.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  Why? Because, I mean, that recreation area, in particular, is built, um, in front of the San Francisco Bay. So, the inmates could all see how San Francisco continued to build up and evolve and develop every day. While they were locked up in there, they couldn't take part in that. They were confined in that prison, and that made them fully aware of the value of freedom. So, in my experience, for me, the fight for freedom is relentless, okay? I mean, my greatest hero in all of human history is Moses.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  The feet of Moses is like one person alone with his brother, Aaron. Both confronting the combined forces of the United States, China, and Russia together. And it was Moses who said to Ramses, "Let my people go." Well, Ramses resisted, and the forces of heaven ran him over. But what I mean is...

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  I don't see any other possible way to live other than with freedom. And I would always fight for full freedom. And I would be at the forefront of this cause. I mean, it's a cause that...

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  I'm going to die with my boots on. I mean, I'm not going to make do with living any other way other than with freedom. I will fight everything I'm gonna fight as much as it takes. Uh, at least that's the way I feel. So, what good is it to be alive if you're confined? What good is it to be alive if you're not free? It's no good. What good was it for Peter Vetter to be alive in communist Germany?

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  Well, at least.

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  He had a moment of happiness while he tried to escape.

• 1:18:44Lex Fridman?

  Another guy who fights for freedom, freedom of speech in this case, is your new friend Elon Musk. What do you admire? And what have you learned from your interactions with Elon?

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  I have a huge admiration for Elon Musk.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  He is a...

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  He is an absolutely unconventional person.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  He's a great fighter for the ideas of freedom. What he has done on Twitter, now known as X, and how he is

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  helping the the world nowadays to wake up once and for all and become aware of the socialist virus, the woke virus. That in itself makes him a hero in the history of humanity.

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  But it's not just that.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  One of the things that happened to me is that when I went to first talk to him, I thought,

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  I was gonna meet a successful businessman and that I would have a typical successful businessman conversation who understands business and that some of his business is some of his business slightly more exotic.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  But...

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  That's the kind of talk you would expect to have. And business people are truly admirable, right? Because they are true benefactors of society.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  But they're usually very much focused on their own business. And one of the things that really, really shocked me when I met Elon Musk. We had scheduled a meeting for no more than 15 minutes. The first time we were in the meeting. For a little over 45 minutes because he was about to miss his flight. So obviously, if someone as important as him doesn't fly as planned, it has to be rescheduled and he loses a lot of hours. Imagine, every minute is very valuable. And

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  and one of the things that happened was that

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  basically, he brought up the topic of demography. And we started discussing demographics and growth. I never imagined that I would end up discussing demographics and growth with him, you know? And another very fun thing was that

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  something funny he said to me was that since we shared our vision regarding demographic issues and the need to populate the planet, he asked me, now what about you? When are you gonna move in that direction? I mean, I said, oh, look, I have five children. And he said, well, the four-legged ones don't count.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  That was the first, the first meeting I had with Elon Musk. The second, um, the second meeting was

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  when here at the universities, we started seeing antisemitic demonstrations where basically Palestinian flags were displayed and Jews were harassed and persecuted.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  And at that moment, when we had that second meeting, he showed himself to be very deeply involved with that and brought up the issue of the cultural battle. So, I mean, it's not quite conventional, even in the political field.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  During our last talk, which lasted for about two and a half hours, right? One of the things we talked about was freedom and what was at stake for the United States in this election.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  Therefore,

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  he is a person, you know, honestly.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  I can say he is well above average. I mean,

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  a person of unconventional intelligence, right? And also, he is very charming. So, I mean, again, I have a great admiration for him and I really interact very closely with him. He is very interested in what our Ministry of Regulation is doing, which seeks to remove regulations. But at the same time, he works with another person who is also interested in the chainsaw approach. And so,

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  I'm very pleased because they are going to try and replicate the model we are implementing in Argentina. And also, Donald Trump himself is very enthusiastic about this. And anything in the way of reducing regulations and cutting public spending and taking government out of the equation means more freedom for the people. So, I'm very pleased with what's going on and with Trump's victory because the United States will be better off. Argentina is going to be better too. And the whole world is going to be better off. Today, the world is a much better place than it was just a few days ago.

• 1:24:11Lex Fridman?

  Like you said, Elon and Vivek Ramaswamy are heading the DOGE, Department of Government Efficiency. So from your experience this year as President of Argentina, and every chainsaw economic policies that you've implemented, what advice would you give to Elon and Vivek about how to do it in the United States?

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Just cut to the chase, cut to the chase. Simple as that. I'll tell you a story and you're going to love it.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Currently in Argentina, due to the political balance we've achieved, we have had certain powers delegated from Congress to the executive branch. And therefore, we can resolve it by decree.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  That the Regulation Minister, Federico Storzenega, in his ministry, shows a counter that displays in front of everyone there. He displays the number of days, all right?

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  During which the delegated powers will continue to be valid. Therefore, he has a whole deregulation division, also a public spending cut division, and government structure reduction division. And he also has an elite corps that's cleaning up all of the laws that hinder the economic system and progress. And every day, he removes between one and five economic restrictions. So my advice would be for them to go all the way, to push it to the very limit. And do not give up. Do not let down their guard. Furthermore, that agenda does not have political purpose.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  Because at the end of the day, you are removing privileges. Of course, there will be people complaining, but those are people. These are people who are losing privileges, so they will have to explain to society why they are keeping those privileges. And that is quite uncomfortable.

• 1:26:14Lex Fridman?

  You've spoken with Donald Trump. Allegedly, he called you his favorite president. What did you discuss? And maybe again, what do you admire about President Trump? And what do you learn from him?

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  There are several things that I admire about President Trump. The first is that he probably... I think he's provided ample proof of this in his first presidency. He understands the nature of the cultural battle. He has openly confronted socialism. His speeches openly target socialism. He perfectly understands the woke virus. And that is, you know, of great value. Because it means understanding what it's all about. Another thing I truly admire about him is his courage.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  In fact, thankfully, thank goodness, he didn't get assassinated or killed. But it was by a small chance occurrence that could have killed him. Just because he moved at the right moment. And yet, that didn't intimidate him, and he went on. And in fact, during his first campaign, and in this one as well, in the second one and third one. They criticized him, insulted him, offended him, said awful things about him, made up all sorts of horrible stories about him. In that respect, I can say,

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  I deeply relate because probably no one in our history has had such a negative campaign from all the media like they did to me. But let's say they were quite similar. This is why it's so interesting and I was so deeply moved when last night I also got to meet Sylvester Stallone. You know? Because Sylvester Stallone talks about, well, "How important is that? No matter how hard they hit you and keep on hitting you all the time, despite all that, you keep going on and on and on." What I'm trying to say is that many of their...

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Many, so many of Sylvester Stallone's approaches are truly inspirational, don't you think? So imagine I'm about to give the speech and I see Sylvester Stallone and Sylvester Stallone knows me. It was truly insane. I had to pinch myself. I mean, this can't be true. And besides, well, the people were wonderful with me last night. They've been wonderful today. I've taken hundreds of selfies. I mean, it's truly been...

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  I would say it's been my break, let me say, after almost a year in office and having to face all sorts of media torture because the journalists who have vested interests and are corrupt are professional torturers. Yes, because they invade your personal life, your family and your privacy. Let me tell you something to show you the kind of garbage the media in Argentina can do. They sent three drones to spy on me at my presidential residence. To spy on me. Do you think that's right?

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  Exactly. But that kind of thing happens in Argentina, not to mention the many lies and horrible things they say. I, for instance, remember that time when my father was hospitalized. My father is a man of a really strong character who has had two heart surgeries, all right? And one day, a journalist was saying all sorts of lies about my father. My father was hospitalized and, well, and he almost died of a heart attack. So that kind of thing is what journalism and the press do in Argentina. So they start to attack your private life, your mother, your father, your sister, even my dogs that I absolutely adore.

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  They are the most wonderful beings in the universe. They even target my four-legged children. So imagine that I've been in office for nearly a year. A year as president, and since they can't criticize my management, except by lying and distorting the numbers. They meddle with all these things, things they have been doing all the time since the year 2021, when I officially entered politics. So... And I've seen what they've done to Trump. So that also makes me relate a lot to him, because he's a true warrior. He's truly...

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  He's a Viking. He's a Viking. He's literally a Viking. I mean, he is someone I admire for how he has kept fighting in the face of adversity, even against all odds, and still he managed to win. Amazing. And well, uh, and that's why I can relate that much.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  And I've also seen how he's been unfairly criticized, like when he was accused of protectionism or when he wanted to discuss some matters within the context of public debate regarding the design of monetary policy as regards the Fed. And basically, they have accused him of things. I mean, isn't he entitled to give an opinion as a president? I mean, any citizen could give their opinion, even more so a president.

• 1:32:13Lex Fridman?

  Why is it important to you that Argentina has a close relationship with the United States?

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  Well, to us, that is truly important, okay?

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  You know? Because we've decided to be geopolitical allies of the United States ever since our campaign, that our allies, we have decided that our allies will be the United States and Israel. Because they basically represent the ideas of the Western world. They represent the free world. That is to say, what we would call today, let's say, a liberal democracy, okay?

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  By confronting the autocrats. And in that sense, that is the geopolitical alignment. Moreover, in our campaign, we were very, very clear on three main points. One, the economic pillar. We talked about cutting public spending, and I would make my appearances with a chainsaw. We talked about economic freedom, deregulation, that is. And I talked about the competition of currencies. And people, you know, obviously, were interested in the dollar. So it was obvious that the economic policy was clear. All right? And not only was it clear, but we are also fulfilling it. That is the first point. Second was our policy on security, the idea being to fight crime.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  I mean relentlessly as well as security. No mercy, right? And in fact, in Argentina, there are no more roadblocks, which they said were impossible to end. Not only that, we have strengthened the security forces and also our armed forces, and we are waging a tough battle against drug trafficking and narco-terrorism. Therefore, we are also strongly fulfilling that. Notice that these two points, which were the main concerns, they were the biggest concerns of Argentinians. When we took office, are now in fifth and sixth place. Today, the problem for Argentinians is corruption. Whether there is unemployment, if there is poverty,

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  but they don't mention inflation and insecurity anymore. And besides, a third point that I made clear was that I would align with the United States and Israel internationally. And, you know, at my campaign rallies, there would be groups that would come along with flags of Israel. So it's clear that our international policy approach was always very clear. And this is something I state during my speeches when I talk about the values of the West and the civilization of the West. In fact, yesterday, and even more so today, during my speeches, I talked about

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  how the different Greek groups or tribes go together to confront the Persians. That is to say, it seemed that from that time 500 years before Christ until today, that struggle continues, right? Uh, but well, so, of course.

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  We're all in. We are betting on the United States becoming, once again, a leader in the West. We needed someone to come back, to make America great again. And, and that, as part of that process, being a commercial ally is also a great idea. So we would really like to move forward and deepen our trade ties and our investment ties, you know? And, well, we would also like to be part of the NATO as well.

• 1:36:09Lex Fridman?

  Do you think it's still possible? One of the radical ideas you had as you were running for president was to dollarize the Argentine economy. Do you think that's still a good idea? Are you still thinking about that?

• 1:36:22Speaker 01

  Let's see, let's break it down. Let's say I, if you review all, all my statements, I talk about currency competition. I'm not strictly talking about dollarization. I'm talking about currency competition and eliminating the central bank. If people later decide to embrace the dollar, that is their choice. Ultimately, in the model I propose, what happens is the formation of a currency basket tailored to the needs of individuals. But, I won't avoid the discussion. Today, there is currency competition. If, for instance, today in Argentina, you want to make transactions in any currency, you can do it, and it's allowed.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  Today, there is currency competition. The other thing we talk about is the concept of, let's suppose we were discussing dollarization. We talk about endogenous dollarization. The first point is that you need to clean up the central bank. We had to deal with the issue of the CIRA. That is, the central bank's commercial debt, which was $50 billion. We still have to resolve the dividend problem of $10 billion. And in the meantime, we did a write-off and cleaned up the central bank's balance sheet by $45 billion. So you can't just close the central bank if it is bankrupt, because you need to redeem the whole central bank debt, which is about the issuing of money and the interest-bearing liabilities.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  So, once we've finished with the interest-bearing liabilities, it'll leave us with the monetary base. Therefore, today we have a regime where the amount of money is fixed, the monetary base is not growing, and as demand for money increases, since people can use dollars, they don't need to go and sell the dollars and make the peso appreciate, but they can do transactions in dollars. So, as the economy grows, you will have a greater share of dollars relative to pesos. And at some point, the amount of pesos compared to the dollars will be so huge relatively that closing down the central bank will be done easily,

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  which means this is working. Of course, if you were to give me the money right now, I would go ahead and dollarize. I'd have no problem with that. For example, I did have a proposal for this, and this could have worked, because the bonds, because the largest creditor of the Argentine treasury is the central bank. But central bank bonds were trading at 20 cents. If I had sold those bonds at 20 cents, and nowadays, they are trading between 60 and 70, with the whole bunch of Neanderthals that are the opposition, who besides being ignorant in economics,

• 1:39:17Speaker 01

  also have bad intentions. I would be in jail today.

• 1:39:22Lex Fridman?

  Let me ask you a very important, difficult question. I'm a huge fan, have been my whole life, of Diego Maradona and Messi. So, who to you is the greatest football player of all time?

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  The way I see it, I have seen Maradona play, all right? I saw Maradona play in the past. I used to watch him. And I saw him during his last year at Argentino Juniors, before Boca Juniors, in the year 1980, and I saw him in 81. Playing for Boca, I saw him play in the youth selection in Japan in 1979. I truly have immensely enjoyed the talent of Maradona.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  But without a doubt, the best soccer player of all time, not just from Argentina, of all time, even better than Pelé, is Messi, of course. There is an article which is quite old already now, titled Messi is Impossible. And it looks at all of the positions a soccer player plays in. That is, all positions a soccer player can play in from midfield forward, okay? And the most incredible thing is that Messi is the best in each of those positions.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  You can be the best in one or two positions. You see, Cristiano Ronaldo, for example, was very good in two areas of the game. So much so that he was almost like Messi, but he didn't take part in the rest. However, Messi is the best one in all respects, but at that time, of course. Nowadays, you know, he is an older player, right? And... And I'm not sure whether he can still keep that performance on all fronts, but... But honestly, I have never in my life seen a player like Messi. I have never seen no one like him. For real.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  If you look at the number of goals he scored, I correct that, considering the goal average in the days of Pelé, compared to Messi's golden era and his career now, the number of equivalent goals is much greater than that of Pelé. Therefore, without a doubt, Messi is the greatest soccer player of all time. Of all time, no one compares to him.

• 1:42:01Lex Fridman?

  But it's not just the numbers or the World Cup win. It's the moments of genius on the field. Messi is unlike any other in that way.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  Messi does things that seem technically impossible. They seem physically impossible. The moves he makes don't respect human logic. It's like watching Usain Bolt run. It doesn't feel possible. He moves in a way that doesn't respect human logic. Am I right?

• 1:42:33Lex Fridman?

  Did you watch the 1986 World Cup with Maradona? With the Hand of God, with the game against England? What was that like?

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. I do remember that very well. We watched it in the home of my godfather and saw how he did his gambit and dodged the team, the England team. That was truly... It was absolutely, absolutely indescribable. There's no way to put it into words. It's as if I asked you to describe for me the love you have for your partner. You can't do that, right? I mean, it's something wonderful. You can't describe it. You cannot put it into words.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  There are things where words, I mean, you know, just seem to fail, am I right? I really think that there are times when humans or some humans, not all of them actually, some humans have the privilege of being able to vibrate closer to God. Some Puccini arias, for example, when you listen to them, when you listen to the famous aria from La Rondina or the famous aria from Gianni Shichi, I mean, you get the feeling that he was getting dictated by God.

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  How can you put that into words? You can't. There's no way you do that. I mean, those moments where we humans are...

• 1:44:18Speaker 01

  That we have the privilege, I say it as human beings, right? Because, I mean, I'm speaking from that perspective. Okay? I say this only as an admirer. Some human beings have the ability to vibrate so close to God that you can't describe it. You can only enjoy it. This is why in Judaism, they don't use the name of God, of the Creator.

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  Because how could you put in words something like that? And I believe those are times when us, humans, connect closer to the Creator and create things. Unique things, you cannot describe them. There are no words to describe that. The only thing you can do is enjoy it and be thankful that you can witness it.

• 1:45:13Lex Fridman?

  You were a great footballer yourself in your youth. You were a goalkeeper. Many people would say that's the toughest and the most important position in football. Maybe you could speak about that experience? And in general, what's harder? Being a goalkeeper or a president?

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Lovely question. Well, indeed. I used to be a goalkeeper, but I'm not so sure about whether I was any good.

• 1:45:41Speaker 01

  But, but, you know, the experience of having been a goalkeeper is very valuable.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  First, the goalkeeper is the only player that can use their hands in a certain sector of the pitch, in the area.

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  The other thing is that he's also the only player who dresses differently, right?

• 1:46:10Speaker 01

  Moreover, their training is a solitary one.

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  And the most important,

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  I mean, it is the very climax, the goal, right? When the goal is called by their team, everyone is celebrating on the other side and the goalkeeper is on his own.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  And and at the same time, he is the one who suffers the most when a goal is scored because he gets the direct impact. In fact, when the goalkeeper makes a mistake, it's an own goal.

• 1:46:51Speaker 01

  Imagine a teammate scores a wonderful goal like the one Maradona did. It's marvelous. And that's just one goal. And imagine the goalkeeper picks up the ball and then if they bring it into the area wrongly, it's like two goals. It's a complete lack of proportion. So therefore,

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  and this, in my opinion, makes goalkeepers have a very strong temperament, right? They are used to being alone and power is precisely that. Because when you make decisions, you are on your own. And and not just that, but also when you have a responsibility like that of a president, when you make a decision, it has an impact on millions of people.

• 1:47:47Speaker 01

  So just like goalkeepers, if you make a mistake and score an own goal and in this context,

• 1:47:54Speaker 01

  it's negative consequences for millions of people.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  Therefore, that has been part of the university of life that has given me the tools to be president today. That is my training in economics, my training in liberalism, having been a goalkeeper and also having had a very tough childhood.

• 1:48:16Lex Fridman?

  How hard is it? What's been the personal toll of carrying the hope of a nation on your shoulders?

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  Well, you know, being defamed, insulted and attacked every single day.

• 1:48:30Speaker 01

  But

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  But again, there's no point in life if it's not with freedom. So like Sylvester Stallone once said, "The secret to life is to carry on in spite of the blows you get, the punches you take." And fortunately, we have been able to carry on in spite of the blows, both coming at us from in front and from behind our backs. Because it'd have been more honest if we had been attacked directly. But well, you know, in Argentina,

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  politics and the mass media, they do love to attack behind your back.

• 1:49:14Lex Fridman?

  What role has God played in your life? And who is God?

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  Well, faith, I'd say, has been

• 1:49:26Speaker 01

  a very fundamental element, you know?

• 1:49:31Speaker 01

  And

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  especially in recent times, during which I've become actively involved, particularly in the teachings of Judaism and in the study of the Torah.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  This has given me a huge, let's say, a huge background to face the many adversities which I've encountered and had to overcome in the last few years. And as to who God is, he's the Creator, the Maker. I call him the One.

• 1:50:11Lex Fridman?

  What is a better guide for humanity? The invisible hand of the market or the hand of God?

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  They're perfectly in sync.

• 1:50:20Lex Fridman?

  Well enough. Again, going back to your youth, you were a lead singer in a rock band. Who is the greatest rock star of all time?

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, the way I see it,

• 1:50:35Speaker 01

  the most amazing rock singer in history of mankind was definitely Elvis Presley.

• 1:50:41Speaker 01

  And my favorite band is The Rolling Stones. So I also greatly admire Mick Jagger, you know? And I still have this dream of getting to meet him in person.

• 1:50:55Lex Fridman?

  How fun would it be to play together with the Stones?

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  That would be a big, big dream. Uh.

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  Don't get my hopes up because I set goals and then I go and achieve them.

• 1:51:12Lex Fridman?

  Well, I'm close friends with a band that opens for the Stones, so I would love to see this happen.

• 1:51:17Speaker 01

  Oh, well, that would be great. Or we could also watch the whole concert from the stage.

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  I mean, I can't keep ruining the Rolling Stones' music. I already had a tribute band and did quite a lot of damage to their music.

• 1:51:33Lex Fridman?

  Uh, how much of your rock star roots define your approach to politics, to life?

• 1:51:39Lex Fridman?

  Do you see yourself as a kind of showman in part?

• 1:51:42Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  Absolutely. My idea is that when you attend, uh, when you attend one of our events, it feels like going to a Rolling Stones concert. In fact, in one of my most recent performances at Luna Park, I even had the pleasure of singing in front of 10,000 people.

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  It's on YouTube. No, sorry. Not on YouTube. It's on my Instagram feed.

• 1:52:14Speaker 01

  At that event, I sang a song called Panic Show, and the song starts by saying, "Hi, everybody. I am the lion."

• 1:52:23Lex Fridman?

  Your intensity and passion have earned you the nickname El Loco, the madman.

• 1:52:30Lex Fridman?

  Do you think some madness is necessary to challenge the powerful establishment?

• 1:52:36Speaker 01

  Well, maybe it's a matter of perspective, right? It could be the other way around, that everyone else is crazy by living in a way contrary to the ideas of freedom. And so maybe the sane person who wants to fix that is then considered a madman. Anyway, the nickname doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I even enjoy it because I've been called like that since I was 10 years old, so. It's not something that particularly bothers me, you know, because it's a nickname that, well, it's, it has been used for many years. But actually, if I present to you the case of San Martin,

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  when he said he was going to cross the Andes to liberate not only Argentina, not only our country, but also Chile and Peru. And people called him crazy. Imagine if you had tried and spoken with, I don't know, with Michelangelo, you would have called him crazy too. Or if you had talked to, I don't know, hundreds of people who have changed the world, surely they would have thought that Einstein was crazy and so on, the list would be infinite. So what is the difference between a madman and a genius? Success.

• 1:54:03Lex Fridman?

  Let me ask you about the market. It's so interesting. From your view of the world, how powerful the market is at figuring out what's best for society? Why do you think the market works so well as a guide for humanity?

• 1:54:20Speaker 01

  One must first understand what the market is. Simply put, the market is a process of voluntary exchange where individuals cooperate through the transfer of property rights in which private property is upheld. This is the system that drives the allocation of resources. In essence, socialism, and this is what Mises condemns in his book, socialism shows is that without private property, prices cease to exist and therefore resources are diverted. Why don't you think it's the same to make a road of asphalt or gold? Why not make it of gold?

• 1:55:05Speaker 01

  Because you have an understanding of economic calculation, you have an idea of prices in your mind. So in this context, if there is no private property, there are no prices and as a result...

• 1:55:20Speaker 01

  The free-market capitalism, you know, is the best mechanism ever developed by humankind for resource allocation. This also implies that markets must be free, free from state intervention, because when the state intervenes, it creates interference. And markets need to allow free entry and exit, what we call competition. However, it's better to understand competition in the sense described by Israel Kirchner, one of the foremost figures of the Austrian School, or in the neoclassical framework, as William Baumol understood it,

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  which was the concept of free entry and exit in so-called contestable markets. And also, let's talk about what pertains to the division of labor and social cooperation. You know, the most wonderful thing about capitalism is that you can only be successful by serving others with better-quality goods at a better price. If you are successful in the free-market capitalism, you are a hero. You are a social benefactor. You are a prosperity machine. So the better you do, you know, the better you do, the better it is for society. This is very important. I remember when I had my first meeting with Elon Musk.

• 1:56:46Speaker 01

  And this made me admire him greatly. And this is something my sister commented on too. You know, Elon Musk told me something he does every day. He wakes up every morning thinking about what problem he could fix for humanity? That's amazing.

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  Of course, what is the counterpart, being successful? Therefore, in that sense, and moreover, in my view, on how the system works, on how the market works, market failures do not exist. That is to say, that is a problem. All right, a problem for neoclassical economists because of of the mathematical tools they've used

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  to develop economic analysis, but actually it's not a real issue in everyday life. It's a problem in the minds of economists. In fact, my latest book called Capitalism, Socialism, and the Neoclassical Trap deals precisely with this issue.

• 1:57:57Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, you've outlined these ideas in Capitalism, Socialism, and the Neoclassical Trap. So the trap is that there's no such thing as a middle ground. It's either capitalism or socialism, and every middle ground ends up in a state of socialism.

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  Well, actually, that is what Mises said. That there were. He said that there are only two systems, free enterprise capitalism and socialism. And he also pointed out, and this is proven in Hayek's book, The Road to Serfdom, that any middle ground solution is unstable in terms of capitalism, meaning it tends towards socialism. So when you implement an intervention, it causes government failure, which then triggers further intervention, setting up a trap that results in more and more intervention. And in this context, the neoclassicals with their market failure theory are in fact dealing with problems that are fundamentally mathematical.

• 1:58:57Speaker 01

  Rather than making the world a better place, they have, if you will, been instrumental in increasing the levels of intervention. Let me tell you something.

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I have an economist as chairman of the President's Advisory Council. Dr. Damian Raedel, who studied here at Harvard University and completed his PhD, was mentored by Kenneth Rogoff, the American economist. And Rogoff has said that Dr. Raedel was his best student.

• 1:59:37Speaker 01

  Nowadays, we're actually working with Dr. Riedel specifically on on all these issues that arise from, you know, the interventions proposed uh, proposed by the

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  by the mainstream, such as the so-called correction of market failures.

• 2:00:02Speaker 01

  And a few days ago, he conducted a survey of search algorithms

• 2:00:10Speaker 01

  and policy recommendations.

• 2:00:15Speaker 01

  And that resulted in a map painted from red to blue. Uh, and, well, the redder it was, the more it was linked to socialism. There was an intermediate thing that was yellow, and blue was free market ideas. And one of the things he discovered as part of that graph or chart was that the largest

• 2:00:45Speaker 01

  the largest number of policy recommendations scandalously are actually left-leaning. So that is the empirical evidence of what I pointed out in the book, Capitalism, Socialism, and the Neoclassical Trap.

• 2:01:03Lex Fridman?

  You mentioned your four-legged children. What have you learned about life from your dogs?

• 2:01:10Speaker 01

  Uh, well, from my four-legged children, I have learned unconditional love.

• 2:01:19Speaker 01

  In fact, well,

• 2:01:24Speaker 01

  my name in Hebrew means loyal friend, faithful friend. And on the Chinese horoscope, I am dog. And if there's one thing that defines me is loyalty being decent. And those virtues, you know, you can find them in those wonderful beings that dogs are, who who love unconditionally. In fact, they are superior beings, right? Spiritually speaking, in my case, because...

• 2:02:01Speaker 01

  Because, you know, I don't forget or forgive those who have harmed me. That is to say, all those who have insulted, defamed me and criticized me, I remember each one of them.

• 2:02:16Speaker 01

  But I don't have the greatness needed to forgive them.

• 2:02:21Lex Fridman?

  On the topic of loyalty in politics, I'm sure there's been a lot of people, some people, who have betrayed you.

• 2:02:31Lex Fridman?

  Does that hurt your heart?

• 2:02:34Speaker 01

  It depends.

• 2:02:37Speaker 01

  Because, uh...

• 2:02:42Speaker 01

  You sometimes think that you can expect some people to be loyal and if they betray you, of course, that hurts. But some people, you actually don't expect anything from them. So, so if there's betrayal, I mean, you won't be annoyed or feel bad because, uh... Because you owe it to someone who didn't share your values? But politics does have that, you know? Sometimes, many of the people you may come across don't have the values you advocate for, but it's cost benefit. You need to let the ship sail on, right? Or would you rather let it sink?

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  That's not my case. I fight until the end. There are traitors, but that's part of politics.

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  And that's not my line, but of course, they do exist.

• 2:03:40Lex Fridman?

  There are a lot of people who admire your revolutionary spirit. What, what advice would you give them? Maybe young people on how to live a life like yours and have an impact on the world like you have begun to do.

• 2:03:57Speaker 01

  I didn't do this thinking about having an impact on the world.

• 2:04:03Speaker 01

  I have defined what makes me happy and I live according to that. I live consistently by that. And...

• 2:04:15Speaker 01

  And most importantly, I would say, never give up. Moreover...

• 2:04:24Speaker 01

  And above all, never be half-hearted.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  I would rather...

• 2:04:32Speaker 01

  Cry because I failed, rather than not crying because I never tried.

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm a perfectionist, so when I do err, of course, I have a bad time. But still, I prefer to go and get things done. If it goes wrong, it's part of life. But I will never...

• 2:05:00Speaker 01

  Never have to regret not having done what I thought needed to be done at that moment. All right?

• 2:05:07Lex Fridman?

  What gives you hope about the future of Argentina and the future of humanity?

• 2:05:13Speaker 01

  Well, the fact that thanks to social media and to the whole tech revolution going on, every day, more and more people are becoming aware

• 2:05:28Speaker 01

  of how important freedom is

• 2:05:32Speaker 01

  to live, to live in peace and prosperity. And I believe, even though bureaucrats and the elites fight untiringly to enslave us,

• 2:05:47Speaker 01

  a wave of freedom has been unleashed,

• 2:05:53Speaker 01

  which if we do wage the fight, will have a much better world.

• 2:05:59Lex Fridman?

  What is your famous words of "viva la libertad"? How did that come about and what does it mean to you?

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  Long live freedom, dammit!

• 2:06:09Speaker 01

  You know, that first started...

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  While I was giving my book presentations, at the end of my presentation, I would say, "Viva la libertad, carajo", and that really stuck with me since then. Without thinking about it, throughout my life, it was going to continue being present. In fact, today, my presentations, all of my speeches end with, "May God bless the Argentinians. May the forces of heaven be with us, and viva la libertad, carajo."

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  The first phrase reflects

• 2:06:52Speaker 01

  my faith in God fervently,

• 2:06:57Speaker 01

  and that I'm deeply thankful to the Creator for the wonderful things He has bestowed upon me daily.

• 2:07:05Speaker 01

  The second one has to do with a quote from the Book of Maccabees, 3:19, which says that victory in battle doesn't depend on the size of the army, but on the forces of heaven. This has to do with the victory of the Jewish people, the Maccabees, against the Greeks, and how they recovered the temple.

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  And the last one, well, is my war cry.

• 2:07:32Lex Fridman?

  Well, there's no better way to end it. Thank you for being a warrior for freedom, and thank you for talking today.

• 2:07:38Speaker 01

  Thank you very much indeed for your interview, and thank you for being so well-educated, because very often, interviewers are not like that. And you did have windows to play foul, and you didn't, and I recognize that, and I thank you for that.

• 2:07:54Lex Fridman?

  Thank you.

• 2:07:56Lex Fridman?

  Thanks for listening to this conversation with Javier Malé. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from George Orwell. "In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.