A Medievalist of the Seven Kingdoms (with Dr. Hugh Doherty)

Dr. Hugh Doherty (University of East Anglia), the historical consultant for A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, joins the podcast to discuss 14th century tournament culture, the dangers of jousting, and the Bayeux Tapestry. Support Noble Blood: — Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/noblebloodtales — Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250840578/anatomyalovestory' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250861016/immortalityalovestory' See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dana Schwartz?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Haven't gotten around to earning your degree yet? Don't panic. Southern New Hampshire University has what you need. Over 200 online degree programs, no set class times, some of the lowest online tuition rates in the country, and career-focused courses that help you learn actual skills, not random facts you'll forget right after graduation. So take a breath, no need to stress. You just found Southern New Hampshire University. Visit SNHU.edu/degree today. That's SNHU.edu/degree.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:05Speaker 03

  Granger knows. If you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Costs climb. Too little? Production slows. Granger's $2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need, when you need it, so you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click Granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

• 1:35Dana Schwartz?

  Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Listener discretion advised. Hi, this is Dana Schwartz, and I am so thrilled to be here today with a very special interview. I'm talking to Dr. Hugh Doherty, who's a professor at the University of East Anglia in the UK. He focuses, I think primarily, on medieval topics. You're a lecturer in medieval subjects, but very exciting to my personal interests is he served as the historical consultant on the truly excellent television series, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. And I just want to be very clear, this is not a sponsored episode.

• 2:19Dana Schwartz?

  No one is paying me to do this. I just genuinely... Personally, love a television show so much. And so I'm personally so delighted to be speaking with you. Dr. Doherty, thank you for joining us.

• 2:32Speaker 04

  It's a pleasure to be here.

• 2:34Dana Schwartz?

  Just to dive right in, can you talk a little bit about your field and your subjects that you primarily focus on when you're not consulting for historical fantasy series?

• 2:46Speaker 04

  I have an expertise in 10th and 11th and 12th century Europe. And as I was on my own choice, I wanted to teach, I'm fascinated with ancient history. So I teach a module on the Roman Empire and I also teach a module on the Hundred Years War. So I know a little about a lot.

• 3:08Dana Schwartz?

  Well, that's, that's sort of the motto for this podcast where I've covered several thousands of years of history. What I love about A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and Game of Thrones in general is it very clearly takes place in a fantasy world, but there are analogues to real British history. I think it's pretty clear that the original Game of Thrones series is a take on the Wars of the Roses in the 15th century. And the House of the Dragon, sort of the prequel series, seems inspired by the anarchy, the period with Empress Matilda. When does The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, I'm going to say take place, again, even

• 3:52Dana Schwartz?

  though it is very much a fantasy series?

• 3:55Speaker 04

  I agree with everything you've said about, by the way, about A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. I've only seen the first two episodes at the moment.

• 4:03Dana Schwartz?

  Oh, you gotta get on it. The, the ending, really, they really stick the ending.

• 4:08Speaker 04

  I know. I just thought they were marvelous. And in fact, they were so good, they made me go back and watch the House of Dragon, which I had not seen. And I was, I'm only sort of halfway through season one, but absolutely spellbound. In answer to your really interesting observation and question by noting that I think George R R Martin is a superb historian. He knows his stuff. It's not just he knows chronology and reigns and personalities, but he understands the operation of power in these societies like few other people do. And I think he did a fantastic job.

• 4:51Speaker 04

  And often, as I've said, that Game of Thrones, House of Dragon, and now Knights of Seven Kingdoms are often more accurate in how they represent the texture of society than series and films that are allegedly about the Middle Ages. So I think that's an important point to note. I think Knights of Seven Kingdoms, when I talked to Ira Parker, the writer and showrunner, about the period, he'd asked George R R Martin, what was the sort of, you know, that if he had to spin it to a particular century, which century would it be? And George R R Martin came back with the fourteenth.

• 5:33Speaker 04

  And that is the, as you know, it is the age of the tournament and of the first two thirds of the Hundred Years' War.

• 5:43Dana Schwartz?

  So how did you, obviously you know a lot about the Hundred Years' War and this period, how did you connect with Ira Parker, who created the show alongside George R R Martin and the team at HBO?

• 5:54Speaker 04

  It's just luck. I've done this before. It all started by somebody, when I was at Oxford, I was a research fellow, and someone at the history faculty got, received a phone call and they, and from a film company who needed somebody to advise on something else, this is many years ago, and this person, the person who answered the phone said, oh, I know someone. So I, I said yes to that and I've, I've been sort of picking up the phone or answering emails ever since. So it was, it was word of mouth essentially. So it was a great joy to be asked as a fan of Game of Thrones, long before all of this.

• 6:35Speaker 04

  It was a great, it was an honour to be asked and um and essentially it came down to Ira and myself having these interviews with Ira, I think in LA and myself here in Norwich and in Norfolk in England, just discussing tournament culture, knightly politics, warfare, Hundred Years' War. It was just fantastic because Ira wanted detail, you know, he, more detail the better. And he had lots of fascinating questions. It was a real joy to to sort of be engaged in this, in the creative process at an early stage. You know, I've been on productions

• 7:16Speaker 04

  where I've been invited in at the very last minute and then to some extent, everything is fixed. While with this, I could suggest things that could be then fed into the the script and the writing.

• 7:30Dana Schwartz?

  It's very exciting to me what this show did. And like you said, it captures the texture of the medieval world, obviously, even though it takes place in a fantasy world. But what a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms does that other Game of Thrones series don't do is it's very focused on a brief period of time rather than, you know, spanning years. We are focused on one tournament. Can you tell us a little bit about what tournament culture was like in the thirteen hundreds in England?

• 8:03Speaker 04

  I will start by saying that there is a sort of, there was a knightly culture that united all of Europe. So the same men who on battlefields are trying to kill each other are on the tournament fields, interacting with each other as competitors and sportsmen and as colleagues and as fellow diners and feasters. It's a, it's a, it's an aspect of of elite culture that draws men and women from across Europe. So it's something that they share. So while at the same time, they're often killing each other on the, in the great battlefields and sieges of the Hundred Years' War, at the same time, in moments of of truces or peace.

• 8:45Speaker 04

  Or sometimes interacting with these campaigns, they are also participating in these tournaments. They were splendid opportunities for the elite of Europe to gather, to show off their wealth, their accoutrements, their gear, their households. And and the comparison I've always made is that tournaments were much like film festivals. In that it was as much about what was happening after the film showings, the soirees, the dinners. As as what's happening in the in the film showings. And so it was as much about what's happening off the tournament field as on it.

• 9:22Speaker 04

  There's there's no doubt that there is the principal action is the um the demonstration of skill at arms. On the tournament field for all to see. And then this will occupy each day and then in the evenings they'll be feasting and uh dancing and poetry and. Interaction between competitors and between women and families and households. And I think that the the Knights of the Seven Kingdoms did a brilliant job in bringing that out, that that interaction that happens off the tournament field. So there is great drama on the field and that torment that drama could be, you know, they could, it could be just knights.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  Tawning against each other, but they might also reenact um episodes from antiquity. From the classical world or from the legendary world. So it develops in Spain, actually, this this notion that knights would hold a bridge. And would defy any other knight to cross the bridge, or that they would reenact a Battle of King Arthur.

• 10:29Dana Schwartz?

  It's like children playing Red Rover, King of the Hill.

• 10:33Speaker 04

  Absolutely, there's a it's it's as much about reenactment and display. It's a celebration of the aristocratic imagination.

• 10:44Dana Schwartz?

  What I always found, you brought up King Arthur, I've always found it personally fascinating that to a modern layperson, their conception of King Arthur, if they're imagining him, is in the 14th century as a knight of chivalry, when of course, King Arthur, who didn't exist, if he did exist at all, would have been, you know, 9th century maybe. But I find it very interesting that our popular image of this character is in the era where he was popularized.

• 11:12Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I know of medievalists who don't like the kind of thing I do, who, you know, laugh at or comment on sort of making a fantasy world accurate, to give it texture and so on. But I think it's what's really interesting is that the kind of world that George R.R. Martin has created is one that any 14th, 15th century audience would have loved. I mean, the tales of knightly drama, of heroes rising through the ranks. This is that world of Arthur that they love reading about, hearing about, and reenacting. So there is actually a nice continuation between, as you say, the legendary world

• 11:56Speaker 04

  of Arthur that they believe in and they love, and that has shaped Western culture, you know, the pre-Raphaelites, Wagner, Excalibur, up to Game of Thrones. It's part of, in a way, a shared tradition that we are still buying into.

• 12:13Dana Schwartz?

  They were celebrating King Arthur as a fictional knight, the same way we're talking about Sir Duncan the Tall.

• 12:20Speaker 04

  Absolutely, absolutely. And in the same way that people who watch The Knight of Seven Kingdoms on a Sunday evening in the States or Monday evening here would go to work the following day.

• 12:32Dana Schwartz?

  People things.

• 12:33Speaker 04

  Exactly. With their imaginations captured as they're on the underground, or the bus, or driving to work, and they're thinking about tournament culture, and daring do, and honor, and all this sort of thing. I think the 14th century audience thought exactly the same when they were on their way to church, or, you know, going to see family, or going to the law courts, or inspecting their stables. They were also thinking about Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. So it populated their imaginative landscapes.

• 13:06Dana Schwartz?

  And to be frank, and I don't want to generalize, but it does seem like for most people, being alive in the 14th century would have been quite boring and bleak and challenging and physically arduous. I imagine these tournaments were a opportunity for a chance for levity and fun and community that might not, you know, it might just be church and working in a field the rest of the time.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  They were immensely popular. They were great fun. I would say no age likes to think of themselves as an age of boredom. And when we have evidence, there is a lot of drinking, merymaking, dancing in the lives of peasant farmers. I mean, that's not, there is also starvation and there is harsh justice and there is.

• 13:56Dana Schwartz?

  A famine around this era.

• 13:58Speaker 04

  Exactly. So, and plague, but you know, plague is no respecter of rank, was no respecter of rank, as COVID was no respecter of rank. And it's also been pointed out, the number of saints' days. Saints' days are holidays and there are so many saints' days, it's sometimes difficult to say how many days these farmers are actually working.

• 14:20Dana Schwartz?

  They got more time off than than most Americans.

• 14:24Speaker 04

  Absolutely. But having said all that, there is no doubt that tournaments were an immense draw for all different sections of of society. I think what we also have to remember is that it was talked about. So even if people weren't there, it was talked about and listened to in the weeks and months afterwards. And that, that was, I know, I remember being in a restaurant and listening to an account of a football match at another table. And more or less, all of the restaurant was gripped by the discussion of this match that only that table had seen. So the same, I think, was true in the Middle, even more true in the Middle Ages, that it was a topic of discussion and you can imagine how the stories got better in the telling.

• 15:10Dana Schwartz?

  So in a real tournament in the 14th century, if I were a knight or a nobleman competing, what would be at stake for me?

• 15:21Speaker 04

  Not your life, not your life. So it's very rare for knights to be killed. Now, they oft- sometimes were, sometimes as a result because it's a danger sport. And sometimes because there is suspicion of murder. They use a lance they shouldn't have done. The lances were meant to have this sort of non-lethal end, but that could sometimes be altered. So it was lethal. There are deaths, but they would above what was at stake, honour, glory, above all. It's slightly different from the tournament of the 12th and 13th century where you could make your fortune

• 16:01Speaker 04

  by capturing other knights and then selling off their horses, their armour, and even ransoning them.

• 16:08Dana Schwartz?

  When you say capturing other knights, do you mean just beating them in a joust?

• 16:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, unhorsing them and then, as it were. So the 12th century and 13th century tournaments weren't as we imagined them as they became in the 14th century. They were sort of pitched battles where killing wasn't the objective, capture was. And they were fought over large sort of football fields. So these huge battles taking place where they're not killing each other, they're just trying to capture each other. And then you could sell off your captives to make a nice fortune. It alters. So in the 13th and then the 14th century, it becomes much more a display of arms and a quest for honour and glory. And it's about, it's just about as, you know, making impression

• 16:58Speaker 04

  on all of the glamorous people, the men and the women as much as the men who are present. And for showing off, you know, your horsemanship, your skill at arms. That's what's at stake and we can't underestimate the importance of honour for these men and women.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 17:52Speaker 05

  This is Troy Millings. As someone who travels a lot for work, I really appreciate a premium airport experience. With the Delta SkyMiles Reserve Business American Express Card, it truly feels like you can have it all. For a limited time, new Delta SkyMiles Reserve Business Card members can earn 200,000 bonus miles, the highest miles offered this year. Card members can also enjoy 15 visits to the Delta Sky Club each medallion year when flying Delta, and you can unlock unlimited Delta Sky Club access after spending $75,000 in purchases on your card during a calendar year. Those are benefits you can get behind. You also get four one-time guest passes each medallion year, so you can bring a friend or colleague along.

• 18:35Speaker 05

  15 Sky Club visits plus four guest passes? That's up to $950 in annual value. Value estimate based on a $50 per visit rate to purchase additional visits or bring a guest to the Delta Sky Club. It's the kind of premium access that helps you feel right at home and at ease no matter where you're headed. Apply today at www.delta.com/podcast. Offer ends November 4, 2026. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply.

• 19:19Speaker 06

  And for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, Jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. Prescription Jardiance, Empagliflozin 10 or 25-milligram tablets, are used to lower blood sugar along with diet and exercise in adults with type 2 diabetes. Jardiance is not for use to lower blood sugar in people with type 1 diabetes, and not for people with type 2 diabetes who have severe kidney disease. Serious side effects include increased ketones in blood or urine, and infection in the area between and around the anus and genitals called the perineum. Both may be fatal. Severe allergic reactions, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in men and women, and low blood sugar. Stop taking and tell your doctor right away if you have nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, tiredness, rash, swelling, trouble breathing, or swallowing. Tell your doctor about lightheadedness, weakness, fever, pain, tenderness,

• 20:04Speaker 06

  redness, or swelling in the perineum. You may have increased risk for lower limb loss. Call your doctor right away if you have new pain or tenderness, sores, ulcers, or infection in your legs or feet. To learn more about Jardiance 10 or 25-milligram tablets, ask your doctor, visit jardiance.com, or call 1-888-968-6648.

• 20:28Dana Schwartz?

  Something I sort of have imagined from popular culture is a knight extending his lance and getting the favor of a woman, her maybe tying a ribbon to the end of the lance. Was that something that actually occurred?

• 20:41Speaker 04

  Yes, absolutely. In fact, it's even more, our evidence is even richer and more complex. We have high status, women decided who was the champion after so many days of fighting. And has it been, it wasn't just simply about calculating points and scoring victories, but a noblewoman might often be entrusted with deciding who was the bravest, the most skillful knight, or dispensing with a range of prizes, or giving the prize. It might even be a wild animal. We know of one tournament where the prize being competed for was a bear.

• 21:17Dana Schwartz?

  What would, what would you do with a bear if you won? I, I, I, is it bear baiting? Is that the answer?

• 21:25Speaker 04

  I don't know. I mean, Henry the second has a bear in the 12th century. I, I think bears would do tricks. And I think it was just such a large and hungry beast to feed, that it was kind of, you know, it was a demonstration of wealth and power. So you come home from the tournament and you, you, you bring back a bear.

• 21:46Dana Schwartz?

  I can't imagine anyone's wife being too pleased about that.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  No, that, though it's, it's a, it's a noblewoman, according to this evidence, who gave the bear away, who was in charge of the bear and gave it as the gift to the victor. Though when we, when Henry, Earl of Derby, in the 1390s, he went to join the, uh, Teutonic Knights in their, one of their campaigns. And he goes twice, and on the second time, he misses them. They've already campaigned in the summer against the Lithuanians. So he goes on a, because he's got money, uh, this is the future, Henry the fourth. He goes on a kind of great pilgrimage to Jerusalem around, and around Europe, and he picks up all these gifts and he comes back with a leopard.

• 22:31Speaker 04

  And so you could, you know, the, the menageries of these aristocrats at these tournaments could be quite spectacular.

• 22:39Dana Schwartz?

  I mean, that, that sounds spectacular. Who, uh, in general is funding these tournaments? Is it always the king, local noblemen? Is there a system in place?

• 22:51Speaker 04

  It's largely paid for out of the noblemen. The noblemen, if they want a tournament, they pay for it. There are some tournaments where, because they're, it's quite a high-profile tournament. Kings get involved and they'll, they'll fund it. They'll pay for the whole thing. Because it, it, you know, there's a very famous tournament in France in 1390 in which three great French knights challenge all of Europe to battle them. And it takes place over a really significant, something like thirty, thirty days of fighting. As a demonstration of endurance, it's very impressive. It's paid for by, um, the French king, because it's bringing great honor and glory to the French kingdom.

• 23:36Speaker 04

  It didn't start with him, but once he hears about it, he wants to sort of support it, so he, he funds it.

• 23:44Dana Schwartz?

  I mean, that makes sense. Thirty days also seems like such a long time where that's like, don't, don't you have jobs to do? Aren't there any wars to fight?

• 23:54Speaker 04

  Absolutely. The fascinating thing is a recent study of this particular tournament demonstrates that it's happening up the road from where the negotiations were being conducted between the French and English delegations, trying to thrash out a peace. So it looks like there's actually overlap. People are moving from powerful negotiating to the tournament fields. So that at the tournament itself, you know, over the drinks and the feasting at night, they were also talking about how they can work out a lasting peace, which is very interesting.

• 24:28Dana Schwartz?

  I mean, that is, that's such an interesting contrast, that there's this lasting peace and then this faux battle happening juxtaposed literally right next door to each other.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  Absolutely. And these are men, the three knights are all involved in the Hundred Years War. One of them, in fact, would be captured, what, 25 years later at Agincourt? So, you know, it's, it's really fascinating how these, these, these individuals turn up in all of these different campaigns and tournaments.

• 24:59Dana Schwartz?

  When you, you mentioned earlier that their lives wouldn't necessarily be at risk in these tournaments, which are not intended to be deadly. But of course, accidents do happen. I mean, a few centuries after the period that we're talking about, the King of France, who was Henry the Second, will die in a, in a jousting accident. Were there any notable tragedies that come to mind for you?

• 25:23Speaker 04

  In particular, in the 13th century, there are a number of high ranking casualties who are killed in tournaments. And in both cases, murder is suspected.

• 25:35Dana Schwartz?

  Interesting. As in, people wanted to sort of use the cover of the tournament to kill people that they actually wanted to kill?

• 25:44Speaker 04

  Absolutely. So there is aristocratic feuding and they want to settle scores. There are, of course, duels to the death, a bit like your cat in that microphone. You know, one of the, one of the most famous duels is fought at the French court and was the subject of, of that very good film, The Last Duel, about a charge of rape. And that is, that is to the death. So there are these incidents. I mean, Henry Earl of Derby, who I have just mentioned, was compelled to fight a duel with Thomas Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk, over charges of treason in thirteen ninety-nine, before he was exiled by Richard the Second.

• 26:29Speaker 04

  He didn't, the duel was never fought at Coventry, but it came very close to being waged and then was stopped by the king.

• 26:37Dana Schwartz?

  The Last Duel, which Ridley Scott made a film of, a phenomenal film, I thought.

• 26:43Speaker 04

  I thought it was excellent. That also captured what a duel to the death was like. So that they do occur, but the duels are separate from the, from the tournaments.

• 26:54Dana Schwartz?

  One other thing that occurs in the television show, Night of the Seven Kingdoms, is a trial by combat. They end up doing a trial where it's seven against seven. I hope I'm not spoiling anything, I won't reveal any outcomes. But is a trial by combat something that actually occurred during this period?

• 27:14Speaker 04

  Absolutely. And it had been a part of elite culture and, and justice from a very early date. I mean, from a sort of post-Roman date, late antiquity, the, the evidence from among the, those who settled in the Roman Empire from the fifth and sixth century of this kind of means of resolving feud, of fighting duels. So it goes from being part, it seems, of a, of pagan Germanic elite culture to being something within the Christian fold.

• 27:49Speaker 04

  That duels are fought often as a result of charges of treason um in the 11th and 12th century. So when men are be are charged with treason, they deny it. And then um they have to fight to defend their position. And there we have an account from a duel that is fought in Flanders in the summer of 1127. And it's horrific. It's just like the um the duel in the in Game of Thrones, where you know, the chap's eyes are are pulled out or squashed out. And there's something not quite the same, but something similar. We have an account of

• 28:28Speaker 04

  a oh, it takes place after the assassination of the Count of Flanders um in 1127 um that sets off a chain of events that leads to civil war in Flanders. And there is this duel about charges of of the of of complicity in the assassination. And we have a an eyewitness account of the duel in which one sort of one of the knights against another, more or less disembowels the opponent. And then the the opponent, as he's dying, is then executed because he's lost the duel, which is God's judgment. He's thus been found guilty. So really quite unsettling.

• 29:08Dana Schwartz?

  Good. Quite uh un uncomfortable to to physically imagine.

• 29:12Speaker 04

  Uncomfortable. Yes, absolutely.

• 29:14Dana Schwartz?

  One slightly lighter question to end on. Another theme in Night of the Seven Kingdoms is sigils and symbols on shields. Can you speak a little bit about what the purpose and meaning of these heraldic symbols were? And if you have any personal favorites?

• 29:33Speaker 04

  This is really interesting because the tournament appears to emerge out of a tradition of cavalry games that goes back to the Roman period. So we know that the Romans liked their military cavalry entertainment. And that then develops in the Frank in the in the early Middle Ages under Charlemagne and his successors. And out of that, in the late 11th century, very likely in northeast, what is now northeast France, Belgium and the Netherlands, there emerges a tournament culture. Why that should be remains unclear. But associated with that is the development, fascinatingly, of heraldry.

• 30:14Speaker 04

  So the history of tournaments and heraldry are seen to be closely connected.

• 30:20Dana Schwartz?

  That's fascinating.

• 30:22Speaker 04

  Absolutely. So, you know, there's been lots of warfare in the early Middle Ages, and there's been no real evidence of heraldry of aristocratic houses. That changes in the late 11th century, and it's linked to tournaments. And it looks like that different families are keen to demonstrate their presence, their power, their identity, their membership with these choice of arms, and this decoration on their shields and on their pennants. So you look at the Bayeux Tapestry, and there's very limited, very, very limited heraldic decoration. I think there's a dragon on a couple of the shields of the knights on the Bayeux Tapestry.

• 31:02Speaker 04

  There's a dragon standard, but otherwise, there's an absence of heraldry. But 40 years later, after 1066, 1070, the day to the Bayeux Tapestry, more or less, arms are being used by elite families. And as the period proceeds, 13th, 14th centuries, they get quite complex, and very colourful and very interesting. My favourite is a bit earlier, in the early 12th century, there's the seal matrix of a English sheriff and justice. And it's a very peculiar because it shows a knight fighting a monster, a kind of griffin-like beast, who is holding

• 31:47Speaker 04

  a kind of small other beast in its mouth. It's not quite clear what's going on. It looks like that the smaller beast is directing the greater beast against this knight.

• 31:59Dana Schwartz?

  It's like a Krang situation? It's like a small, small guy controlling a big guy?

• 32:04Speaker 04

  Absolutely. It's exactly that. And it's really fascinating. It's clearly an insight into how this knight saw himself as a kind of fighter against the forces of darkness on behalf of his king. So it's a really fascinating insight into a mentality.

• 32:22Dana Schwartz?

  I love that. If you have access to it, please, please email it to me. I would love to see that. But it is fascinating to imagine that these knightly heralds are performative more than functional in that sense. If they, if they corresponded with the rise of these tournaments, they were outward facing symbols. And I think that's such an interesting analysis.

• 32:46Speaker 04

  Absolutely. But having said that, I would also want to make the point that they then, of course, as you know, they do, they are then functional and in the, in the stress of battle, you know, seeing these standards and in the close visor of these helmets, seeing a standard of your lord or of your king is can rally your spirit and can also show you where to rush to. There's no accident that Henry V placed himself at Agincourt, right on the front line with his royal war helm, so that everybody could see where he was to rally the lads, in other words, in the heat of battle.

• 33:22Dana Schwartz?

  And of course, something to bring it all back together, something I think that Knight of the Seven Kingdoms communicates very well, is it is difficult to see in those visors.

• 33:31Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 33:33Dana Schwartz?

  If you lose sight of your, of your lord, I mean, going back to the, the Bay of Tapestry, Battle of Hastings, if you, it seems like your king is down. Who knows what to do?

• 33:43Speaker 04

  Absolutely. The confusion and terror of battle. In fact, there are two different kinds of helmet. There is the tournament helmet, which is a big showy offy gear. And then there's the sort of battle helm, where a lot like Israeli tank commanders were trained to drive with their heads out of the tank hatch to give maximum mobility in the 1960s and 70s. Knights in, in English armies and French armies in the 14th century preferred helmets without visors so that they could see the action. It was much more dangerous, of course. Henry V gets an arrow as a

• 34:23Speaker 04

  16 year old boy in his face at the Battle of Shrewsbury because he's got his visor up because he wants to see what's happening and lead, lead his men. It's a serious business.

• 34:34Dana Schwartz?

  It is a serious business. I've already taken far too much of your time. This is, I could talk to you for hours. This is fascinating. One last question, just before you go. How do you feel something very exciting for medievalists is about to happen in the UK, which is the Bayeux Tapestry coming back?

• 34:51Speaker 04

  I'm very, very excited. I'm also deeply nervous.

• 34:55Dana Schwartz?

  That's what people say. It's a little controversial.

• 34:58Speaker 04

  You know, I can see post Brexit, the B word. Good thing to be reminded of our remarkable and rich, shared history with the continent. I'm a bit, little bit anxious about the transport of this remarkable object. I mean, you know, it is, it is very, very fragile and it should be preserved. It survived, after all, it has survived Napoleon, it has survived the Vermaat and the SS. It has survived a great deal and it needs to be preserved so that future generations can enjoy its fascinating detail.

• 35:37Dana Schwartz?

  If I'm correct, Harold, Harold with an arrow to the eye?

• 35:41Speaker 04

  Absolutely. Though it's, there is, everything about the Bayeux Tapestry is an enigma and a challenge. So the problem with that is that we think, we're not actually sure which figure, because it says Harold, but it's not quite clear which figure is Harold. There is a figure with an arrow. And then, just to complicate things more, there is evidence that the arrow is a 19th century restoration.

• 36:07Dana Schwartz?

  Oh, no.

• 36:08Speaker 04

  So even something as like, as sort of accepted and known as the arrow in Harold's eye on the Bayeux Tapestry, we're not even certain if it's, if it's part of the original decoration. It is, that there is, everything about the Bayeux Tapestry is an enigma. The more you look at it, the more complex and the more interesting it becomes.

• 36:31Dana Schwartz?

  I know, I just gave a thousand medievalists a heart attack by saying Harold died with an arrow to the eye, reinforcing the historical myth.

• 36:39Speaker 04

  I was just at a seminar where the historian was talking exactly on this point. Harold may still have died by an arrow, and there may be an arrow there in the tapestry that may indeed be Harold. There's just this problem that there is evidence of slight, heavy-handed restoration in the 19th century. I'm sure those historians, medievalists are still alive.

• 37:02Dana Schwartz?

  Okay, good. Dr. Torri, I cannot thank you enough for your time for this fascinating conversation. I can see why Hollywood keeps calling you. It's just a pleasure to talk to you.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  It's been a pleasure, Donna, really. Thank you.

• 37:23Dana Schwartz?

  Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz. Writers for Noble Blood are Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Paul Jaffe, Natasha Lasky, and me, Dana Schwartz. The show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk and Gnome's Griffin, with supervising producer Reema Ilkayali, and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 38:04Speaker 07

  Hey folks, it's Matt Altmaix. And Joel Larsgaard from the How To Money podcast. If you travel for work like I do, you know that every trip is an opportunity to get more from the miles that you are already earning. Whether you are heading to your next client meeting or catching a flight home, those miles can go a long way.

• 38:22Speaker 08

  And for a limited time, new Delta SkyMiles Business Card members can earn 200,000 bonus miles, the highest miles offered this year, with a Delta SkyMiles Reserve Business American Express Card. Apply today at delta.com/podcast. Offer ends November 4th. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply.

• 38:40Speaker 09

  This is Colin Cowherd from the Colin Cowherd Podcast. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fordability. All starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or a half-ton Tundra to a Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. For a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, shop toyota.com. Toyota, let's go places.

• 39:11Speaker 10

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 39:39Dana Schwartz?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.