Roll On: Get Back (To Basics)

Why is creativity vital? What is the nature of culture? And why is pursuing happiness futile? Today we tackle this terrain and so much more in today’s rendition of ‘Roll On,’ wherein myself and my undefeated podcast co-pilot Adam Skolnick ‘get back’ to our original old school format. Aside from serving as my magnanimous sidecar hype-beast, Adam Skolnick is an activist and veteran journalist best known as David Goggins’ Can’t Hurt Me, co-author. Adam writes about adventure sports, environmental issues, and civil rights for outlets such as The New York Times, Outside, ESPN, BBC, and Men’s Health. He is the author of One Breath and is currently using the ‘new dad’ excuse to avoid working on his novel. Today’s discussion includes the following topics: Remembering British photojournalist Tom Stoddart & Australian swimmer Jason Plummer; The ascent of Norwegian triathlon dominance; The Kyle Rittenhouse and Ahmaud Arbery verdicts; Oscar Pistorius’ prison transfer & restorative justice; Lawsuits involving Tyson Foods and Impossible Foods; Toby Morse’s new children’s book ‘One Life One Chance’; and ‘The Beatles: Get Back’ & ‘The Velvet Underground; documentaries As always, we close things out by taking a few listener questions. Today we answer: How do optimize your caloric intake for recovery when intermittent fasting? Is happiness something that can realistically be achieved? How do you draw a line between people-pleasing and living a life of service? Thank you to Al from Washington D. C., Kendall from Boulder, Colorado, and Abby from Colorado for your questions. If you want your query discussed, drop it on our Facebook Page or better yet leave a voicemail at (424) 235-4626. To read more click here. You can also watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Enjoy the show! Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:13Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. All righty. After an extended series of format deviations, which were met with, let's just say, a diversity of reactions, today, roll on original, quote-unquote, "original" returns, featuring my favorite, and let's face it, the audience favorite, scuba-masked Paul to my John, Kale to my Reed, jokes which will soon be understood, Sir Adam Skolnick. How you doing, buddy?

• 1:48Adam Skolnick?

  You know, Rich, I'm not going to bore you with my problems.

• 1:51Rich Roll?

  All right, let me just interrupt you right then there.

• 1:53Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:55Rich Roll?

  Because I will not allow you to bore me with your problems.

• 1:58Adam Skolnick?

  Do I have a blister under my toenail? Yes, I do.

• 2:00Rich Roll?

  Okay, good. Anything else? Get it all out.

• 2:04Adam Skolnick?

  No, I have no problems, really, to speak of, not in the grand scheme of things. But busy times, getting ready to go away. We're getting the first passport stamp in Zoom's booklet.

• 2:16Rich Roll?

  You going down south.

• 2:18Adam Skolnick?

  Going down south, baby.

• 2:21Rich Roll?

  Things are changing rapidly with the new variant, however.

• 2:24Adam Skolnick?

  I know.

• 2:25Rich Roll?

  Travel restrictions are, you know, starting to abound.

• 2:29Adam Skolnick?

  They are. But Mexico has recently announced, you know, that when you, when you're getting a flight anywhere now, they, they say, check on the latest whatevers. And so we, the new guidelines, so we click on the guideline. And I'm expecting, you know, you have to get a test or proof of vaccination or whatever. And it says, Mexico has no requirements. Come on in, everybody. Mexico has no requirements. But I am hoping, I'm hopeful that the Omicron variant actually makes it counterintuitively safer in a way, like people can't cancel their plans. There's not as many people at the airport. And, um, and we're going to a part of the world where they're getting 43 cases a day over the last seven days in a, in a, in a 500 mile region.

• 3:14Adam Skolnick?

  So we're actually going to a safer place.

• 3:17Rich Roll?

  I don't think that it's gonna chill holiday travel. I think people are like, okay, another variant. And we've been doing this for two years. We have to live our life. Like, I don't know, you know, setting aside government imposed restrictions. I don't know how much of an impact that's gonna have on people canceling plans that they've made.

• 3:38Adam Skolnick?

  Maybe not.

• 3:38Rich Roll?

  And are looking forward to, but we'll see. Okay. Well, before we get into it, just for those who might be new or newer, roll on as our inconsistently bi-weekly news entertainment AMA mashup where we loosen the metaphorical ties a bit. Discuss matters of import intrigue and nonsense, answer listener questions, have a few laughs, hopefully have a bit of fun. And we got lots to cover today. I, we don't really have a big story. We just have lots of stories. We'll see how long it's gonna take us to get through. But I'm excited about today's show. Before we, before we dive into it though, I do want to mention that Shrimu, Julie's amazing plant-based cheese offerings.

• 4:22Rich Roll?

  They're in the midst of getting everything ready for the holidays. So if that's on your wish list for the holidays, if that's a gift that you want to give or something that you want to enjoy yourself, you have to get your order in by December 13th. To do that, go to shrimu.com, S R I M U dot com. And if you use code RRP22, you get 22% off. Just wanted to slide that in there.

• 4:46Adam Skolnick?

  There's no better plant-based cheese company that I've ever tasted. And the people and the staff, just like your staff here, like just top-quality people. I had a good fortune to be able to meet a couple of them.

• 4:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 4:57Adam Skolnick?

  Just incredible operation and big fan.

• 5:01Rich Roll?

  It's good stuff.

• 5:02Adam Skolnick?

  Big Shrimu fan.

• 5:03Rich Roll?

  Good people, good product.

• 5:04Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 5:05Rich Roll?

  All of that. Where do we want to begin? Anything else you want to mention before I check in?

• 5:12Adam Skolnick?

  No, it's great to be back. I appreciate the, uh, the love on, on the onlines for the OG roll-on. I even got one yesterday saying, where's the, where's the regular roll-on?

• 5:24Rich Roll?

  Right. We, we diverted from our format so many times that I can't remember the last time it was just you and me. It was super fun to have Brogan here and he adds a certain flair and spice to the program. But I will have, I have to say, Adam, you have a hardcore fan base out there that are, that are very vocal about making sure that you are in good stead. They want to hear from Skolnick. They don't want, they don't want a bunch of other noise. They just want to hear it directly from you.

• 5:52Adam Skolnick?

  You know what? And I love them for it. I love you.

• 5:54Rich Roll?

  I love them too.

• 5:55Adam Skolnick?

  Hardcore fan base.

• 5:56Rich Roll?

  I love them too. I'm getting ready to go to Austin. We're, we're recording this on, what's the date? The 29th of November. Usually we record these on Monday and then we put them up Thursday, but we're recording this, um, the Monday in advance because I'm going to be out of town in Austin at the running event, which is kind of a trade show for the running industry. I'm doing that for Solomon. So I'm going to be there the whole week of December 1st. So we're, we're front-loading this a little bit, but I did want to catch up a little bit on things that have been going on. We had a low-key Thanksgiving. Julie was actually in Egypt. She just got back.

• 6:31Adam Skolnick?

  Cool.

• 6:31Rich Roll?

  She was on a spiritual pilgrimage there. It sounds like it was an incredible trip. Maybe I'll have her back on to share. She just, she went on an insane walkabout, which was cool.

• 6:43Adam Skolnick?

  By herself?

• 6:44Rich Roll?

  No, she was with a group of people, but they were in Cairo and did all the pyramids and went down to Luxor and they were on a boat in the Nile for five days. Like she saw like so much cool stuff. But last week I was in Vancouver. Participating in the Planted Expo, which was a really cool kind of plant-based nutrition event that was put on by Steven Merkovich. He's like the main guy there, which was really cool. I got to give a talk. And I also got to do a live podcast event in a church, which was really cool for a smaller audience. Like, maybe, I don't know how many people were there, 200 people or something like that, with these guys, Zach Berman and Dean Morris, who have a podcast called A Little More Good. They gave me a t-shirt. I'm rocking

• 7:29Rich Roll?

  their t-shirt.

• 7:30Adam Skolnick?

  Nice.

• 7:30Rich Roll?

  My seersucker suit.

• 7:31Adam Skolnick?

  I love the suit.

• 7:32Rich Roll?

  It was really fun. They haven't put that out yet. I don't know when it's going up, but I'll let you guys know. But we had a great talk, and it was just nice to be amongst people and to do like a live event. Zach is a co-founder of this company called Juice Truck, which was Canada's first cold-pressed juice bar.

• 7:51Adam Skolnick?

  Oh.

• 7:51Rich Roll?

  He founded that in 2011, I think. And then Dean is this sort of iconoclastic pastor, like, he's a pastor, but he's a vegan, and he's a runner, and he's like a Lululemon ambassador.

• 8:02Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 8:03Rich Roll?

  And we had a really good time. I shared a couple pictures from that.

• 8:07Adam Skolnick?

  Cool. Did the Planted Expo do a ritual crossword? Because someone from them-

• 8:12Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, that was for the live podcast event.

• 8:16Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, okay.

• 8:16Rich Roll?

  I didn't end up even seeing it. And they said they would send it to me, but they did a whole crossword puzzle based on words that, you know, I have a tendency to-

• 8:23Adam Skolnick?

  Right. They messaged me-

• 8:24Rich Roll?

  Pull out of my quiver.

• 8:26Adam Skolnick?

  They asked me for a few additions.

• 8:29Rich Roll?

  I think that those made it. They mentioned that they had spoken to you, yeah. And those found their way into the thing. And then I guess they were handing them out in printed form or whatever. And some people were like, oh, cool. And others were like, what, I have homework? Like, what do you want me to do with this?

• 8:45Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, they didn't understand.

• 8:46Rich Roll?

  So, anyway, I should get my hands on that.

• 8:48Adam Skolnick?

  We gotta put it up on the site.

• 8:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. I know.

• 8:51Adam Skolnick?

  People would love this.

• 8:52Rich Roll?

  I know. I gotta get it. All right, guys, I'm sure you're listening to this. Send me that thing. Also, I wanted to thank everybody who submitted a listener story. We put the call out over the last couple of weeks to call our voicemail and leave a message. With how the show has impacted you. I think we've received something like 200. How many did we get, guys? Like, almost, yeah, close to 200 stories. Amongst them, some, some pretty incredible ones, and we're in the process of editing, editing that together for like, a really cool end of year episode that we're putting together. So, thank you for everybody who, who did that. It's gonna be, it's gonna be pretty special.

• 9:31Adam Skolnick?

  Don't we want them to be credible, though, Rich? Not incredible?

• 9:34Rich Roll?

  Are we gonna fact check? Well, you're the journalist here. You wanna fact check them? Get on the phone with all these people and verify the veracity of these stories?

• 9:40Adam Skolnick?

  I just, I'm pointing out the term incredible, because incredible means amazing.

• 9:44Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 9:45Adam Skolnick?

  But it could also mean, you know, it's also, there's that other usage, which we don't really use anymore.

• 9:51Rich Roll?

  We, we, we use it incorrectly.

• 9:54Adam Skolnick?

  We use-

• 9:54Rich Roll?

  99% of, .9% of the time, I suspect.

• 9:58Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, myself included.

• 10:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm gonna check myself on that.

• 10:02Adam Skolnick?

  Now, will you use superlative? That's what it is.

• 10:07Rich Roll?

  Superl- well, that gets misused also.

• 10:09Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 10:10Rich Roll?

  Superlatives in general get misused. Are we gonna go down the grammar rabbit hole?

• 10:14Adam Skolnick?

  Sorry.

• 10:14Rich Roll?

  Have you been fought, so ever since we-

• 10:17Adam Skolnick?

  I miss you, Rich. I miss you.

• 10:18Rich Roll?

  Ever since I shared that guy on TikTok who does the grammar stuff-

• 10:21Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 10:22Rich Roll?

  About bi-weekly, I started following him, and he's just a constant source of enjoyment for the videos that he creates. I forget his name. We'll link it up.

• 10:29Adam Skolnick?

  But you have to be on TikTok to follow him, or?

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  No, he posts them on Instagram as well.

• 10:33Adam Skolnick?

  I gotta follow him.

• 10:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're pretty good.

• 10:35Adam Skolnick?

  Send me that guy again, please.

• 10:37Rich Roll?

  We have a couple people that we'd like to remember. You wanna kick this off?

• 10:41Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, in memoriam. Memoriam? In memoriam.

• 10:44Rich Roll?

  In memoriam? In memorial?

• 10:46Adam Skolnick?

  Two intrepid souls lost. My friend, Tom Stoddart, this is his latest book. Where do I put it?

• 10:55Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 10:55Adam Skolnick?

  Where's the camera? He's a photojournalist, uh, who I worked with in the past. He's covered the Civil War in Lebanon, the Siege of Sarajevo, the Fall of the Berlin Wall, the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, as well as the original Gulf War under the first Bush. Basically covered conflicts, catastrophes, social issues around the world for 40 years. Um, but that doesn't even come into, like, completely paint the picture of who he was. I mean, he was so well-regarded, Tony Blair had him as a, um, had him along with him for a week, you know, just him, uh, in, the entire day.

• 11:31Rich Roll?

  Photograph him.

• 11:32Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah, to photograph him the entire day. Um, he-

• 11:38Adam Skolnick?

  Only shot in black and white. For a long time, he only used Leicas.

• 11:43Adam Skolnick?

  He used to quote Canadian photographer Ted Grant. "If you photograph in color, you see the color of their clothes. But if you photograph in black and white, you see the color of their soul."

• 11:53Adam Skolnick?

  Just a great guy from northern England who knocked on the door of his local paper and begged for a job. They made him an assistant photographer and basically never turned back. That was in the 70s. And I met him because in 2007, I did a story for Men's Health, a feature on these doctors and healthcare workers, both American and Karin in this ethnic provinces of Burma. But a lot of them were expatriated into Thailand and their base of operations was in Mysat, Thailand. And Tom was the photographer that came with me on this feature as I followed them into displaced people's camps.

• 12:37Adam Skolnick?

  So we did together, the displaced people's camps. And these were villagers who'd been, had their villages torched and were run off their ancestral homeland and were trying to flee to the safety of Thailand, but had to live in these penned areas on the river in these camps up and where aid workers were kind of giving them food and medicine. And that was the story of Karin State, much of Karin State for years. And Tom and I snuck over the border. We went to this camp, people who'd just had their homes burned down, and spent a week together, first in Bangkok, then Mysat, then in Karin State.

• 13:17Adam Skolnick?

  And he was, you know, at that time, 2007, I was still kind of, you know, wondering if this was gonna work as a job. You know, like I started in 2000, was writing grants and doing what I had to do. 2004, I started getting bigger publications. You know, we'd started LA Yoga and all of that. But by 2007, I was still very much in the eviction notice phase and just starting with Lonely Planet. So things are just starting to get better. And Tom, you know, said, you know, he would remind me, you know, "We are lions, mate. We are lions. Just remind me that we have to remain confident. We have to remain optimistic. We have to be able to fight through all the adversity that comes with trying to do this job

• 14:00Adam Skolnick?

  in a, you know, climate that is not conducive to that." Because if, you know, you're getting paid... Months after the expenses come through, nobody cares. Your bills are still due. And then you have to deal with editors that are kind of fickle. They can be fickle. They can kill a story. They can mess with a story. Not that I have that problem with editors in general, but it does happen. And you know, Tom used to refer to him lovingly as the desk fuckwits. And not that he thought that of those, of the editors that he worked with, but just that it's a way of thinking so that you can maintain some sort of sanity while you go and do this. And meanwhile, you're photographing or interviewing people who've been through hell.

• 14:44Adam Skolnick?

  Most recently, his biggest story was the migration of people from Syria and into, I think it was Lesbos, into Greece with that massive influx. He was there for that. To see him shoot, he's rolling on the ground. I mean, he's, he's, he's got kneepads. He's got elbow pads. I mean, he's a full body experience. And this is into his 60s doing this.

• 15:05Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 15:06Adam Skolnick?

  And, and then I met, he had a show at the Annenberg Space for Photography in Century City. That's the last time I saw him. And I didn't even know he was sick. He kind of kept that under wraps.

• 15:16Rich Roll?

  How did he perish?

• 15:17Adam Skolnick?

  He had cancer. And he just didn't tell anybody, really. I mean, I guess his really close, close friends knew, his wife knew. He was the type of guy, like, he married the love of his life, it turned out to be, but it was his best friend's wife and he died, the best friend died. And then he ends up marrying, kind of very Conrad, anchor in that way. And.

• 15:38Rich Roll?

  Same with Julie's dad. Actually, it's a similar thing.

• 15:42Adam Skolnick?

  And she, and she's now had to bury both of those guys.

• 15:46Adam Skolnick?

  And so the memorial, I think, is today, or it's this week. This is most recent book, like I said, Extraordinary Women. It's some amazing photographs. The guy's truly a legend in the business and a great, great mentor to me and a great soul. And I miss him and I love him. And I just wanted to share who he was with you guys.

• 16:07Rich Roll?

  Sorry for your loss. How long ago was that, that the exhibit was going on?

• 16:10Adam Skolnick?

  That was 2016.

• 16:12Rich Roll?

  Oh, so it was five years ago.

• 16:13Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, but I spoke with him. We communicated in 2020, right before Zuma was born. Yeah. When this book came out.

• 16:22Rich Roll?

  Life is short, man.

• 16:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 16:23Rich Roll?

  On that subject, I've got a memorial to share as well. My friend, Jason Plummer.

• 16:32Rich Roll?

  Passed away this last week. Too soon. I'm not quite sure that there's clarity on how he passed away. It was either an aneurysm or a heart attack. I think he was on a stationary bike at the time. Jason was a teammate of mine at Stanford, an exceptionally talented swimmer, Commonwealth Games champion, distance freestyler from Brisbane. He was on the 88 Australian Olympic team. He was world surf race champion. Like, this guy was very talented, but he was also kind of a wild man. He was a free spirit. He was the class clown. He was, I think it's

• 17:13Rich Roll?

  fair to say, not keen on authority. He was kind of a good time Charlie and was always the life of the party. And I had plenty of good times with him. But he had this history of clashing with Skip Kenny, our coach, who was a marine sniper and liked to run the team like it was a sort of military outfit, which, I mean, Skip is a very complicated person and has a very complicated legacy. He was a guy who put team above all. And I learned a lot about how you build teams and how you create cohesion amidst, amongst

• 17:57Rich Roll?

  individuals for a greater purpose. But he also kind of reigned on this idea of fear, which didn't really work for me. And he was a guy who, if you were a favorite of his, it worked really well. But if you were kind of on the outs or somebody that he didn't quite get along with, it was a bumpy road. And Jason was certainly one of those people. And there was this huge scandal in 2007 where it came out that Skip had...

• 18:29Rich Roll?

  Expunged swimmers that he didn't like from the Stanford record books. Like he literally, he had beefs with certain people. And so in the media guide, he just like, they, they compile these lists of like top 10 times for each event. He just, he just line item removed them from the record books. And I think Jason might've been the one to, to see it and realize it. And he made a stink about it because he was one of the people.

• 18:54Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 18:54Rich Roll?

  Who, who had earned a spot on these lists and he had been surreptitiously removed without any explanation.

• 19:02Adam Skolnick?

  It's like something out of a Wes Anderson movie.

• 19:03Rich Roll?

  Which is like, I mean, right. It's, it's sort of an ego is the enemy. Like Skip had a beef, his ego got caught up in it and he made an error and he ended up getting suspended and ultimately that was the end of his career. And that career was an incredibly successful one. I mean, he lorded over, you know, perhaps one of the most successful collegiate swim programs in the history of collegiate swimming. I mean, he won 26 consecutive Pac 10 championships. And he was, you know, like I had my ups and downs with him. I have friends that were on the outs with him and I have friends that loved him, you know? And I, my relationship with him is fine, but he's a, you know, he's a crusty, difficult human being.

• 19:47Rich Roll?

  I mean, Plummer has this quote where I found it in an article, kind of getting ready for today, where he, he said in reference to Skip, that he was a guy with an axe to grind who has circumvented common decency. And I think you can understand why he would feel that way. But at the same time, Skip would create these kind of traditions amongst the team that really congealed us as a unit. One of those things was called the pants. There was this pair of old sweatpants that dated back like.

• 20:20Rich Roll?

  I don't know when, like, like, they almost felt like sandpaper. They were so old, these red sweatpants. And each year, uh, the team would vote on who would earn the right to wear those pants for the year. And it was basically the person who had the most enthusiastic team spirit. And you would kind of have to wear them like, not every day, but like, most days.

• 20:41Adam Skolnick?

  Like to meets and stuff?

• 20:42Rich Roll?

  No, every day.

• 20:43Adam Skolnick?

  Every day?

• 20:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just wear them for like, an entire year. Um, oh yeah, here, I found the note. So it started, the pants were from 1967, from the 1967 NCAA championship team. Um, my friend Sam McAdam had one, had them one year, Mike Reynolds had them one year, and then I had them one year.

• 21:01Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, you did?

• 21:02Rich Roll?

  So I got to wear the pants for a year.

• 21:03Adam Skolnick?

  That's awesome.

• 21:04Rich Roll?

  Um, but it was stuff like that, that like, you know, was sort of created by Skip, like these beautiful little things. And there was all kinds of other traditions. We would do this annual road trip and all that kind of stuff. But, but, you know, Skip's tenure ended in, you know, this sort of cloud of ill repute that had, you know, no small part due to like, Jason and what had gone down. But all of this to say that Jason will be missed. He was, he really was like a larger-than-life character and he's gone too soon, so.

• 21:35Adam Skolnick?

  Where, where was he living? Was he local?

• 21:36Rich Roll?

  In Dallas. I think he was, he was doing like, high-end real estate there or something like that. Um, but had that, you know, that kind of like Aussie spirit, you know, where he would light up a room when he would walk into it.

• 21:48Adam Skolnick?

  Sorry about that.

• 21:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 21:50Adam Skolnick?

  Um, here's to the, here's to Stoddart and Plummer.

• 21:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, here's, here's to those guys. Um, but on the subject of, of talented athletes, do we want to talk about the ascent of the Norwegians?

• 22:01Adam Skolnick?

  We must.

• 22:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:02Adam Skolnick?

  They've, they've announced themselves.

• 22:04Rich Roll?

  I don't know if they've, they have been announced. It's the, it's the age of the Norwegians on the triathlon slash Ironman landscape these days.

• 22:13Adam Skolnick?

  You know, I would, I would, um, I would let Norwegians just run the world personally. Like, having met some Norwegians and seeing how they run their country. Um, I'm, I'm open to-

• 22:22Rich Roll?

  They make a very nice, safe car.

• 22:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I think, I'm open to the Norwegian-

• 22:26Rich Roll?

  Wait, is Volvo Norwegian? No, it's Swedish.

• 22:29Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, no, that's Swedish.

• 22:31Rich Roll?

  That's a faux pas.

• 22:31Adam Skolnick?

  That's a faux pas.

• 22:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm sorry about that.

• 22:34Adam Skolnick?

  Norway doesn't, doesn't make automobiles. That's what I mean. They're above the fray.

• 22:37Rich Roll?

  Well, somebody's got to make the cars.

• 22:40Adam Skolnick?

  I wonder, I know, well.

• 22:42Rich Roll?

  So you can't have them completely run the world?

• 22:44Adam Skolnick?

  No, they can be the administrators.

• 22:46Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, let's get specific.

• 22:48Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 22:49Rich Roll?

  You want to talk about Christian first?

• 22:50Adam Skolnick?

  Christian Blumenfeldt and Gustav Eden.

• 22:53Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:54Adam Skolnick?

  Christian, the Olympic champ that no one expected, was in his first ever Ironman.

• 23:01Rich Roll?

  I know, the first Ironman he's ever done.

• 23:03Adam Skolnick?

  He's ever entered in Cozumel. And he rocked it in a world record time of 7 hours and 21 minutes. It's not officially a world record yet because the swim, which he completed in 39 minutes for 2.4 mile swim, which is bonkers, was current aided.

• 23:19Rich Roll?

  It was current, and I think they actually measured it and it came up like 500 meters short or something like that, too.

• 23:25Adam Skolnick?

  It's unlikely this will ever be considered.

• 23:27Rich Roll?

  Brad Culp wrote an article for Triathlete and said, yeah, whether or not it will be considered a world record, I mean, it almost doesn't matter. I mean, he was like 6 minutes faster than the previous, the, you know, fastest recorded time, which was that Jan Frodeno?

• 23:40Adam Skolnick?

  I think it was Jan Frodeno, who gave him major props online, on the, on the socials. But the bike is 4 hours and 2 minutes, amazing, but the run is what blew me away.

• 23:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:52Adam Skolnick?

  235 marathon.

• 23:53Rich Roll?

  It's crazy.

• 23:54Adam Skolnick?

  It's crazy, right?

• 23:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:56Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 23:56Rich Roll?

  After...

• 23:57Adam Skolnick?

  After a 112 mile bike ride.

• 23:59Rich Roll?

  And also, not for nothing, being like really hot and humid.

• 24:03Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 24:04Rich Roll?

  It's unbelievable.

• 24:05Adam Skolnick?

  It's unbelievable.

• 24:05Rich Roll?

  And he thinks that he could have run much faster.

• 24:08Adam Skolnick?

  That's incredible to me.

• 24:09Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 24:09Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 24:12Rich Roll?

  It's amazing, his first ever Ironman. There's some weirdness around this. Brad Culp had done some reporting on this as well, that, that the Ironman organization made like no reference to this for like days.

• 24:25Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 24:26Rich Roll?

  They were covering a different Ironman race that was going on at the same time as, as Ironman Cozumel. I mean, they, later on, like they ended up tweeting some stuff, but I found it to be very strange. I don't know what that is about.

• 24:40Adam Skolnick?

  Do you think it has to do with the race organizers in Cozumel? Do you think it has to do with like not being there for the course?

• 24:46Rich Roll?

  I don't know, somebody, I tweeted this out, like why, how come like no love from the Ironman organization for Christian's performance? Or, or even more broadly, anything about I am Cozumel to begin with? And somebody said something about how... The Ironman organization had licensed the name of the Cozumel race, but it wasn't like, it's not part of like the hardcore family of Ironman races. I don't know if that's true or not.

• 25:10Adam Skolnick?

  I don't know.

• 25:11Rich Roll?

  But I don't know why that would color whether or not they would report on it when it is an official Ironman race.

• 25:17Adam Skolnick?

  I'm going to get into it because I'm doing a story on Christian for New York Times Sports. It'll come out in late December. It's obviously inspired by this incredible performance, which was, and I got the idea because you messaged me about it.

• 25:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 25:32Adam Skolnick?

  And I'm like, oh, that is a good story.

• 25:33Rich Roll?

  Well, and I had the opportunity to meet him. I met him at an event in Century City that was like a day or two before the Malibu Triathlon. I got to chat with him a little bit. And then I saw him at the race because I was doing the celebrity relay and he was doing a celebrity relay. So even though he went 721, let's be clear that my relay with Alexi Pappas and Mary Kane beat his relay.

• 26:02Adam Skolnick?

  Alexi reminded him of that.

• 26:03Rich Roll?

  The important thing, yes. But he's such a sweet, like sort of soft spoken, you know, uber talent of a guy. You know, he's very, he's very humble and grounded.

• 26:14Adam Skolnick?

  I interviewed him before and he was really cool and accessible and I'm really looking forward to this. And he's racing again in Jacksonville, I believe, in December 5th.

• 26:22Rich Roll?

  Right. But the key races for him are St. George in May and then Kona in October. And he's also part of this, this sub seven project. Do you know about this?

• 26:35Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I've heard of it. I think Talbot Cox told us a little bit about it when we were together in Utah.

• 26:40Rich Roll?

  So akin to the Breaking Two project where they created a scenario conducive to Kipchoge breaking two hours in the marathon, they're doing something similar in Ironman where Christian and Aleister Brownlee are going to go for a sub seven Ironman and then Lucy Charles Barkley and Nicola Spirig are going to go for a sub eight. And they throw the rulebook out, much like how how Kikchogi did it on that track and he had Pacers and wind blockers and all of that. They're gonna do something similar in Ironman.

• 27:13Adam Skolnick?

  Peloton and Pacers?

• 27:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Pacers, Peloton. And I read an article where Christian was talking about like how that's gonna work and how he wants to use, you know, take advantage of of those tools. And for the run, he wants his high school buddy Gustav Eiden, or Eden, I'm not sure how you pronounce it, to pace him on the run. Now Gustav, fellow Norwegian, these guys went to high school together, they've been, you know, like, it's incredible. Just went 234 in his Ironman debut, which is unbelievable.

• 27:46Adam Skolnick?

  On the, on the, on the run?

• 27:48Rich Roll?

  No, um, oh, I'm sorry. He went 7, he went 734, I believe.

• 27:52Adam Skolnick?

  Okay, unbelievable.

• 27:53Rich Roll?

  Sorry, I misspoke. But Gustav is a better runner than Christian. And, and, and Christian said something in this article to the tune of like, well, Gustav can get up and run a 220 like any day of the week, like it's no big deal. So to have Gustav pace him on the marathon, Christian thinks that he can go like 220, 225 or something like that, which is just unbelievable.

• 28:15Adam Skolnick?

  Will they do a pool swim to make sure that they don't like do too many, too long a distance?

• 28:21Rich Roll?

  Probably not, no. I doubt it'll be in a pool, but the details of this, like the date and the venue and all of that is to be determined. Like, they haven't even figured out, or they haven't announced like what the course would be.

• 28:32Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 28:32Rich Roll?

  But he'll get to have, all of these athletes will get to have Pacers on the bike. Like, if you have somebody, if you can draft on the bike.

• 28:39Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 28:39Rich Roll?

  You know, that's a huge thing, right?

• 28:41Adam Skolnick?

  Well, it's like what we saw with James.

• 28:42Rich Roll?

  So can, can, you know, Christian drop 21 minutes off his Ironman time with those extra advantages? We'll find out. But it's cool that they're doing it and it makes it exciting.

• 28:54Adam Skolnick?

  Well, it's gotta come off the, the, I mean, if he thinks he can shave off the run, which he says he can. So if he can shave five minutes off the run and 15 minutes off the bike.

• 29:03Rich Roll?

  Right. I would think he could get with, I don't know if you can do a whole Peloton, like, I don't know how they're structuring it, but if he can just be in a pack on the bike.

• 29:13Adam Skolnick?

  Or is it gonna be a criterion, or is it?

• 29:14Rich Roll?

  I don't know. I don't know. I guess we'll find out. But the point being, these Norwegian guys, and there's a third guy as well, are like crushing it at the moment, and it's cool to watch it unfold.

• 29:25Adam Skolnick?

  It is cool.

• 29:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. All right, well, why don't we take a quick break and we'll be back with lots more.

• 29:43Rich Roll?

  All right, and we're back. Should we talk about Kyle Rittenhouse and Ahmaud Arbery? I feel like we should, even though on the date that this comes out, there's been a million takes on this.

• 29:56Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 29:57Rich Roll?

  It's sort of been in the news cycle and we're at the risk of it like sort of not being in the news cycle anymore. Maybe people are tired of hearing about it. But I feel like, you know, because social justice is an important theme or subject of the Roll On and the podcast in general, that we should at least spend, you know, a couple of minutes on this.

• 30:18Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's how Roll On kind of started. It launched with, with talking about these wrestling with these issues. And I think, I think people want to hear your take on it, especially as someone who was a lawyer, you're going to have a viewpoint on these two cases and that kind of the nuances involved.

• 30:38Rich Roll?

  Well, what is your take on the Rittenhouse acquittal? Let's start there.

• 30:43Adam Skolnick?

  It didn't surprise me. I was not surprised by the acquittal. I was, you know, I, I am,

• 30:54Adam Skolnick?

  I'm not surprised by it, but it does bother me that someone who is a juvenile, who obviously has some sort of emotional problems, had someone buy him a gun and came from out of state to defend businesses, even though no one really invited him to do it. He wasn't really connected to these businesses and then comes with a gun and then everything happens. And then even after that, the police kind of let him walk by with the gun, which shows you, you know, there was a lot of misreporting, especially during the trial, people thinking that he killed black people. That's not what happened. But it doesn't matter who he killed, but that was the assumption I saw on social media.

• 31:37Adam Skolnick?

  But I think it is fair to say if he was black and he'd come there and shot at two people, there's no way the cops would let him just walk by them with a loaded weapon. So, I mean, you could argue with me, but I mean, I find that very hard to believe. So, that's a problem. The idea of vigilantism in general is a problem. But the, you know, it looked to me, and I didn't, I didn't watch the whole thing, but it looked to me that the prosecution was overmatched, that the law wasn't necessarily on their side, and that he made a credible case for self-defense. And he was emotionally stunted.

• 32:20Adam Skolnick?

  And so, you know, when I think of it, I think of it as a great tragedy for all involved, including him. He probably doesn't see it that way himself at the moment, because he's getting a lot of love from kind of people who are using him as a pawn, and they're happy to do that. And it's just a sad state of affairs. But that's my take on the Rittenhouse situation.

• 32:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's a solid take. There, it was challenging to see all of these misguided narratives on social media that were mischaracterizing what was actually going on. I mean, my understanding was that it's illegal to buy that weapon in Wisconsin, but it's legal to own it. You just can't purchase it.

• 33:10Adam Skolnick?

  And so, open carry, right?

• 33:11Rich Roll?

  Hence, the state line thing. But he's from Kenosha, right? Like, this is his hometown. You know, purportedly, he was defending a car dealership or something like that. I think, you know, if you, if you...

• 33:30Rich Roll?

  You bought into a narrative that was factually incorrect that he was out there to mow down a bunch of Black Lives Matter people than to just hear the verdict without really understanding what was going on led to that uproar in the wake of the verdict. But the truth is, as a lawyer, the prosecution had a very difficult uphill job here. They had to establish first guilt beyond a reasonable doubt on the offense itself, plus they had to defeat the self-defense argument, which means they had to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. So that burden is very high, and the facts of the case were just

• 34:14Rich Roll?

  not favorable to garnering a conviction on that. But I think that the idea that two people are dead and a third is injured and nobody committed a crime is a difficult pill to swallow, right? How could nobody have violated any laws and this tragedy occurred? And I also think it's hard to swallow that he was found not guilty on a number of lesser charges, like reckless endangerment, where the burden wasn't so high. The jury just went in 100% on acquittal across the board. But like you said, none of this undermines

• 34:57Rich Roll?

  the tragic nature of all of it. And it is disheartening that there is this characterization of Rittenhouse as this hero, like he's been offered an internship by Matt Gaetz, things like that. I think he is being used. That's disturbing. Real people are dead. And there doesn't seem to be a regard on the far wing of the right that that really matters, because we have a living vigilante, and that vigilante is useful in this political battle. And that's...

• 35:33Rich Roll?

  That's really disheartening, I find.

• 35:35Adam Skolnick?

  It's beyond disheartening. It's disgusting. He's a tool, in all sense of the word, and he's being used that way. Someone will go away. I think the friend who is, I think, dated his sister and then they became close and is a little bit older. His name is Dominic Black. According to Washington Post story I read, he bought the gun for Kyle because Kyle was too young to buy it for himself. So that is, I think he's gonna go away. So it's just, yeah, I mean, I think he'll have to do some time because that gun was illegally purchased and given to him. So, you know, someone's gonna go away and it probably won't be Kyle, which is odd. The whole thing, and then there's the judge.

• 36:19Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 36:20Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, the judge, he also was kind of used as a kind of a declaration from people on the left saying, see how unfair this whole thing is. But then the legal scholars for the networks were saying, actually, he hasn't been as unfair as some of this narrative online on Twitter is saying. But I did watch Roy Wood Jr.'s kind of thing on Daily Show and where he is pretending bailiff and he's going back and forth with this judge. And if you watch that, which we should link to.

• 36:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I didn't watch that. You mentioned that to me last night. I forgot to watch it.

• 36:52Adam Skolnick?

  You see how, like, the judge himself and how he displays himself, it is as if, like, it's a casual moment for him on camera, as if this isn't a tragic thing. It just, I was very offended by the judge's overall comportment. And it speaks, this is a very American issue. No other country would look at this and see these guns and vigilantes and think that that's legal.

• 37:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 37:19Adam Skolnick?

  And this narrative that guns make us all safer, I think we can throw that out the window.

• 37:24Rich Roll?

  It's preposterous. I mean, the fact that, like, what is he, 17?

• 37:28Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 37:29Rich Roll?

  Could acquire one of these weapons and walk around with it. And, you know, if you're, if you're carrying an AR-15 and you're walking into a

• 37:40Rich Roll?

  Temptuous situation because there's protesting on some level, conscious or otherwise, like you're soliciting conflict. Something is gonna happen and just by dint of your presence, you're making whatever is happening more dangerous.

• 37:56Adam Skolnick?

  And he was not advised appropriately by whoever adults were in his life and maybe he did it without telling anybody, it's probably he did, but like, you know, I, the only thing I can think of where there's some semblance of justice that comes out of this is I hope the victims sue him, sue his parents and take their houses because he does deserve some sort of, there, there needs to be some sort, and we'll talk about this in a bit, but there needs to be some sort of correction and some sort of reconciliation. And if you don't have that, then you have this, this gaping wound that's just gonna fester. But if you can have some sort of civil resolution, it's not necessarily gonna appease everybody,

• 38:38Adam Skolnick?

  but somewhere where there is a price to pay, then I think you have a chance at reconciliation. And I think, you know, obviously they probably wouldn't lose their houses, some big wealthy donor would just pay the fee, but I do think, I do anticipate a civil case out of this.

• 38:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I, I think that's inevitable, civil suits are inevitable.

• 38:59Adam Skolnick?

  Cause the, you tell me, the burden of proof is much lower, right?

• 39:02Rich Roll?

  It's a different burden. Yeah. It's a different burden completely. All right. Do you have any thoughts on, on Ahmaud Arbery? I mean, this went a different way.

• 39:11Adam Skolnick?

  Different way. Also wasn't surprised by this. I mean, I predicted both things in the comfort of my own home. I didn't predict them online, so I shouldn't. Yeah, I predicted everything.

• 39:21Rich Roll?

  Okay, Nate Silver.

• 39:23Adam Skolnick?

  I predicted the last earthquake. No, I thought that, you know, this was different all the way around. The prosecution was incredible in this, that, you know, there was this concern because there was only. One black juror that this was gonna be another one of these cases where the killers got off, but that didn't turn out to be the case, which is great. You know, there's this temptation to, to celebrate these things. It's another tragedy of a different sort. This is someone who's a runner in the neighborhood. We talked about this. It was so unjust. It was a modern day lynching. The only acceptable thing would have been guilty. But then, when you realize that they are guilty, and they got convicted, and the prosecution

• 40:07Adam Skolnick?

  was fabulous, and all these things are true, and the, you know, they did have to take the case out of the local district. They did have, it did take months of protests to get this case into court to begin with. You know, there, there, there was this period of time where maybe nobody would have paid for this crime. So, if you look at both of those things, while it's great that there was a conviction, it didn't come without the pressure. And so, what we have here, you look at both of them, you have a criminal justice system that still doesn't seem to work the way it's been imagined.

• 40:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 40:40Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 40:40Rich Roll?

  I think, I, I mean, I don't know what else to add to that. I mean, I think it was a different scenario from the Rittenhouse situation. You know, Aubrey was unarmed, and the facts, you know, lent themselves more favorably to the verdict that, that, that we all bore witness to. But I think it's a situation also where we have these perpetrators who are emboldened by this citizens arrest law, which ultimately becomes part of their defense, but doesn't win the day because they never declared it to Aubrey. And there was no felony being perpetrated in the midst of that, which, of course, you know, basically allows you to make the argument that in many ways, this can be characterized as a modern day lynching.

• 41:25Rich Roll?

  But I think ultimately, what I take away from this, is, from both of these cases, is this situation that the United States finds itself in, where we have these expansive, open, or concealed carry laws. We have these protective self-defense laws, and then we have these stand your ground law, you know, self-defense, stand your ground laws, and citizens arrest laws, like, all of those together?

• 41:51Rich Roll?

  Can be weaponized to create a very dangerous, toxic situation.

• 41:57Adam Skolnick?

  It's almost like one day, maybe people might storm the Capitol and try to affect a presidential election.

• 42:04Rich Roll?

  That might happen.

• 42:06Adam Skolnick?

  Some dystopian future.

• 42:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, God forbid something like that happens.

• 42:11Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 42:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's just, it's all horrible and sad.

• 42:18Adam Skolnick?

  It is. I mean, what's the, what do you take out of this as a sliver of some sort of hope or, or shining? Some sort of, some sort of

• 42:27Rich Roll?

  I don't know, man.

• 42:28Adam Skolnick?

  Shred of goodness.

• 42:30Rich Roll?

  You know, pointing, having a spotlight on these things, you know, creates a situation in which we're talking about it. And those conversations are the only thing that can ever lead to any of the kind of legislative regulatory change that I think, that I think we need. But the flip side of that is that spotlight also serves to further divide us and create this rift. Between, you know, these two narratives of, you know, Rittenhouse as vigilante hero or, you know, an indictment on the systemic racist nation that we all live on, live in, you know, so how do we move forward from that productively?

• 43:09Adam Skolnick?

  Well, I think that's a good segue, actually, but I want to say one thing about Rittenhouse. I do not put Rittenhouse in the same batch of the people that killed Ahmaud.

• 43:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course.

• 43:21Adam Skolnick?

  Rittenhouse is a, is a stunted.

• 43:24Rich Roll?

  He's a confused.

• 43:25Adam Skolnick?

  A confused young man. It's horrible. He did not seek to follow someone and kill them. And he didn't, wasn't the instigator the whole time. You know, he really wasn't. He sought maybe to, no one carries the gun if they don't want to use it. So, you know, that's a different story, but I don't put him in that same. Batch, but in terms of the segue, what we don't have here is what we end up having, whenever we talk about these kinds of issues is we have two sides that are dug in and we don't have this idea of the collective and especially on the side that is for gun rights and all that stuff, they don't want to give an inch. No one wants to look at this thing

• 44:05Adam Skolnick?

  as we're all in this together, really. There's this growing gulf and people don't want to think about how to move forward together. They want to think about how to move forward in this other future, but it typically comes at the expense of this other, you know, the expense of the opponent. South Africa is getting ready, just transferred Oscar Pistorius, you know, the Blade Runner, the guy who had no legs, but was a remarkable sprinter anyway, was an Olympic, and I think he was in, was he in the actual Olympic Games? I think he was. Yeah, he was. He was in the actual Olympic Games. And, but then he killed his model girlfriend,

• 44:47Adam Skolnick?

  claimed that he thought people were breaking in and she had barricaded herself in the bathroom because of a break in, but, you know, could be that he was beating on her over the course of time and she was protecting herself from him. He ends up shooting her, claims that there was invaders. Turns out that wasn't the truth. And he gets sentenced to 15 years in prison, which sounds light to people here in this country. But in South Africa, they have something called restorative justice and he's now eligible for parole, parole, having served half that 15 year sentence. But to get parole, you have to have a sit down with your victims or the victim's family if the victim is dead. And so they moved him

• 45:28Adam Skolnick?

  to a prison in the town where his, and I don't know why I'm spacing on the woman who he killed. Let's get that real quick. I don't remember her name. Yeah, we gotta get that. But her parents, it was.

• 45:46Adam Skolnick?

  Riva, Riva Steenkamp is her name. And, uh, and her parents live in this town that he just got transferred to. And apparently there's seasoned professionals that bring these two parties together. And it's a brutal, multi-day, multi-session, um, therapy session. Where you have to come to, um, some sort of mutual understanding. Um, and forgiveness is the goal. And taking responsibility is the goal. Talk about mutual, you know, like this idea that we're all in it together. That's how, that's how it works. And I know, having covered some prison reform stuff, uh, for, uh, long reads. Um, the person I was following in that story, Lori Dawson, is a big believer in restorative justice.

• 46:31Adam Skolnick?

  Would like to see restorative justice here in this country.

• 46:34Rich Roll?

  How did that, what is the inception of that in South Africa?

• 46:39Adam Skolnick?

  You know, I, I think it comes from a post-apartheid era to try to get people who, uh, out of prison, to empty the prisons, because there were so many political prisoners back there. I, I would have to do more research, but that's my understanding.

• 46:52Rich Roll?

  And is there data that this is effective?

• 46:55Adam Skolnick?

  The, the data that I'm aware of is more in that the reason that 15 years seems light for a murder case to us is because we put people away forever. But the data that I'm aware of is there is actually a limitation to how long you put someone away to what, what becomes of their life afterwards. And 15 years is, is like, gives someone a chance to actually rehabilitate.

• 47:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 47:20Adam Skolnick?

  So it allows you to look at the person as though, you know, we want to punish them forever because he took someone away forever. And I get it. I understand that impulse. I, I also grew up here.

• 47:30Rich Roll?

  Punitive is only one arm of, of justice and rehabilitation is another important prong that we don't really value or prioritize in our system.

• 47:40Adam Skolnick?

  No, we don't. But, and, and you see it, you know, look. When we talk about prison reform or criminal justice reform, restorative justice is definitely very much a touchstone with people who are really active in that community. And typically, you know, because it's poor people, it's people of color who go away for crimes they commit, maybe when they're 18, 19, 20. This is, this is the typical thing, right? And, and we'd like to see some way for some pathway towards rehabilitation so that we have less suffering overall around this one crime, right? So we can create something productive out of it. And there's plenty of people who have come out of prison and created productive lives.

• 48:24Adam Skolnick?

  But it's typically because they just resolved to do it. And it's the exception, not the rule. And so when you look at, but then, you know, the shoe's on the other foot. You have the George Floyd case, you have this case of the Maude Arbery. And typically, the people on the left who would be more into criminal justice reform definitely want to see their pint of blood, you know, they want to taste the pint of blood. And I get it. But when it comes to things like restorative justice, you have to believe in it for everybody. It's really interesting and compelling to see South Africa go this far with it. And it's actually seems to work because they wouldn't be continuing to do it if it didn't. And

• 49:02Adam Skolnick?

  it's interesting.

• 49:02Rich Roll?

  It is interesting. I mean, it's very, to me personally, it's very reminiscent of the Amy Beal story. I think I've told this story on the podcast before. I can't remember, so forgive me if you've already heard it. But Amy was a friend of mine at Stanford. She was on the diving team.

• 49:20Rich Roll?

  And she went on to become an anti-apartheid activist. She got a Fulbright scholarship. She went to South Africa to study. And she ended up getting murdered in 1993 by Cape Town residents. She was, I think she was driving a friend home to one of the townships. And she got pulled out of her car and stabbed. I think she was stabbed in the head. It was a horribly vicious, violent crime that culminated in her death. And in the wake of that, four men were convicted of the crime. But they were pardoned in 1998, like only five years later, by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Because at that, and under that rubric,

• 50:05Rich Roll?

  if your crime was politically motivated, you could get this lighter sentence, or your sentence could be commandeered. And they established that it was a politically motivated crime, which was very controversial. And this was a big story in Cape Town and across South Africa at the time. But what makes this story so compelling and interesting is that Amy's parents supported the release of these men. They had to testify about it. It was like a big thing. And then in 1994, like, can you imagine? Your daughter's murdered, and then you go to the hearing or whatever and say, yes, you know, release these people. Like, can you imagine?

• 50:49Adam Skolnick?

  I can't imagine it.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  What that would require.

• 50:51Adam Skolnick?

  No, I also can't imagine the pain involved. I mean, I think it must have something to do with forgiveness and moving forward. But it takes a lot of courage to get to that spot. So, no, I cannot imagine any of that.

• 51:05Rich Roll?

  But the legacy of this lives on. I mean, in 1994, her parents created the Amy Beal Foundation that was set up to empower township youths. And two of the convicted murderers ended up working for the foundation, which is unbelievable. Amy was honored by Nelson Mandela. And there's actually two schools, like a high school and some other school in New Mexico that are now named after her.

• 51:32Adam Skolnick?

  It just shows that there was obviously some sort of restorative justice element at play.

• 51:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's why I bring it up. Because I don't know, you know, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission obviously comes out of the apartheid era as well. But it seems sort of a close cousin to this idea of restorative justice in a different form.

• 51:51Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I mean, restorative justice belongs, you'd think, belongs to the future of some enlightened society when we're all able to let go of pain easier and stop pointing fingers.

• 52:04Adam Skolnick?

  Because it does come from, you know, the punitive side comes from the shame, shame, you know, we will stone you to, it's very old school.

• 52:13Rich Roll?

  Right, but moving forward requires forgiveness and it requires a belief in rehabilitation and these other things.

• 52:20Adam Skolnick?

  It requires a very evolved point of view and I'm not saying I would be the guy rooting for that if something terrible happened to people I love. So it's not that I'm saying it's an easy thing, I just point out that it seems remarkable to me. And, and then the, the real takeaway is that our sentences probably are too, I mean, I think we know, they are too harsh. But then, you know, what's the, because we already, we see it all over the states now. There's been stories about DAs that have been trying to, you know, empty the prisons and empty the jails and that seems to be backfiring with, with theft and murders going up. So, you know, that, that it, we're in this messy in-between time where vigilante ism

• 53:01Adam Skolnick?

  is up, crime is up, prosecutors want, there's abolish the police, like, we're in this weird tectonic plate shifting time.

• 53:10Rich Roll?

  It is weird.

• 53:11Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah. Where do we land?

• 53:13Rich Roll?

  I don't know. I don't know, but we need more, we need more like Bryan Stevenson's out there.

• 53:18Adam Skolnick?

  We do.

• 53:19Rich Roll?

  Talking about this.

• 53:20Adam Skolnick?

  His book's insane.

• 53:21Rich Roll?

  I know, it's so good.

• 53:22Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 53:23Rich Roll?

  All right, should we switch gears?

• 53:24Adam Skolnick?

  Well, we are switching gears, but I think what I've realized halfway through this, this is, we're touching on these stories, this is legal corner.

• 53:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is kind of.

• 53:34Adam Skolnick?

  This is rich roll legal corner.

• 53:36Rich Roll?

  I was not a criminal attorney though, so my, my like acumen around criminal procedure is, is, let's say, weak.

• 53:44Adam Skolnick?

  Okay, but this is not a criminal case that's coming up.

• 53:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 53:48Adam Skolnick?

  We have, we have a new case that's kind of right in the RRP wheelhouse. And I came aware of this because of my friend, Alice Driver's reporting. She is a gifted freelance journalist. She's been, her stuff's on CNN, her stuff's been in Time, I believe. She's starting to write for The New Yorker now. She's got a book deal in that's happened and she's got that going. She has written for long reads. She's very gifted, very talented. I met her years ago and we've just stayed in contact. Big fan. And she has been reporting on the COVID deaths in the meatpacking industry.

• 54:28Adam Skolnick?

  And she was kind of talking about this on social media and I and made people aware of this lawsuit and kind of posted the link to this to this landmark. Looks like class action suit brought by workers alliances for the food chain workers alliances, community workers alliance, different unions against Tyson Food, Tyson Fresh Meats, Keystone Foods, JBS USA and Pilgrim's Pride Corporation. These are the main meatpacking industry. And this case is focused outside of Alice's home state, which is Arkansas, which is she's been focused on. But I'll talk about this case and I'll talk a little bit about what

• 55:09Adam Skolnick?

  she told me is happening in Arkansas. But so the premise of this case is these meat production companies have received over $150 million in federal funds since the pandemic started. This was part of the food insecurity concern. Processing workers are mostly people of color, which we know, often migrants. They're typically Southeast Asian and Latino now, but there certainly are some African Americans as well and and and some white people there, but it's the vast majority is is POC. And over 100 have died in these states where this with this lawsuit, these lawsuits are taking place.

• 55:47Rich Roll?

  Under the employment of Tyson.

• 55:48Adam Skolnick?

  Yes, under the employment of these various meat production companies.

• 55:51Rich Roll?

  Like meat production employees broadly, just 100 that worked for Tyson.

• 55:57Adam Skolnick?

  Tyson and these other companies that I mentioned. So it's a handful. While white managers have managed to remain healthy and that 100, we should say, is based on official statistics and Alice doubts those numbers and she's been working in Arkansas and she is she says in Arkansas, they claim it's between 100 and 200, just in Arkansas alone, and that's just Tyson. But Tyson has such Influence there that she doesn't, she doubts those official statistics. And she actually does this by going to these small town cemeteries and counting the headstones of people with, with Karen names, because Karen State, Burmese immigrants, a lot of them are there, Thai names, and, and finds that it's, it's over 200.

• 56:40Adam Skolnick?

  But the idea is that when we focus just on Tyson, Tyson has incentivized workers to come in during COVID by giving them $500 bonuses twice while the office staff worked remotely. So the premise of this lawsuit is your white office staff got to stay home. Your white office staff didn't have to come to work. The POC had to come in, and you're, you're taking money from the federal government. POC had to come in and by June 2020, when the pandemic was still rolling at, at its, at its peak, they were brought back in and the pre-pandemic policy of workers being fired for missing shifts, even if they're sick, was back implemented. Now, when you're talking about migrant workers who work, who live in company housing and

• 57:23Adam Skolnick?

  their rent for the company housing gets taken out of their paycheck, getting fired is a big fucking deal.

• 57:28Rich Roll?

  Because you lose your housing.

• 57:29Adam Skolnick?

  You lose your housing. So that's what's happening. And so even if they've been exposed to COVID, they were encouraged to come in. In fact, they were told they had to come in.

• 57:38Rich Roll?

  Even if they were, even if there was, they had known exposure.

• 57:42Adam Skolnick?

  Known exposure. That's what this, this is what this lawsuit alleges, right? Meat processing plants is also another allegation have been COVID hotspots from day one. As of May 2020, six of the top 10 per capita COVID infective counties had a meat processing plant. They had higher infection rates than New York City and LA when they were the quote epicenters. So, you know, these-

• 58:08Rich Roll?

  Higher per capita?

• 58:09Adam Skolnick?

  Per capita. So in these small towns, more people were getting COVID per capita than in New York at the height of the, of the first wave. Like I said, Arkansas, 100 to 200 people have died officially, but Alice is, is things, it's, it's well in excess of that. Clarksville is a town of 9,000 people, 300 Korean refugees live in company housing there and work at Tyson. She is now seeing Afghans come in. Afghan refugees are being assigned to places in Arkansas. She predicts that they will be working for Tyson. And then there's the other side of it, which is, you know, she's interviewed some of these people. If they're coming from Corinne State, which we just talked about, they look at this and they're like, "Well, it's worse at home. This is better."

• 58:53Adam Skolnick?

  And so, you know, that complicates a journalist narrative, which wants to paint the evil picture. But that doesn't mean they're not entitled to the same protections as people here in this country.

• 59:03Rich Roll?

  Sure. And that can be, you know, leveraged, like, "Oh, it was so much worse at home."

• 59:09Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 59:09Rich Roll?

  So, you know, who cares how bad it is here? Like, the company can take advantage of that.

• 59:14Adam Skolnick?

  And why are these places hotspots? Well, you're working in refrigerated areas, you're working very close quarters, there's no six-feet separation. There's, there's, yes, you might have a mask and a shield, but that's not going to save you from these other problems that are inherited, inherited, that are part and parcel of this kind of work. And, and then, you know, pan back and you see, we're talking about chicken plants in these lawsuits. I mean, chicken waste piles up, it ends up being flooded, going into our rivers and streams, and causing a whole host of environmental catastrophes. I mean, this is, talk about intersectional politics.

• 59:52Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, this is like, the way the food system has, has, has basically created this problem that is so intersectional is remarkable.

• 1:00:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Have you seen "They're Trying to Kill Us" yet?

• 1:00:04Adam Skolnick?

  Not yet.

• 1:00:05Rich Roll?

  It confronts this very issue, particularly through the lens of industrial poultry farming, and how these farms are in these rural communities of color, these underprivileged communities, poorer communities, and the toxic waste sludge, like the, the, the, basically, the fecal matter, like, all of the waste that these packed-in chicken farms create, they put them in these reservoirs, these pools, and then they spray it. All over the place and it goes into the air and in the movie. There's a scene where John visits this woman who lives nearby one of these farms and they they go inside the house and they test they like swab inside the house and there's

• 1:00:49Rich Roll?

  there's literally poultry fecal matter residue all across the house and people die of respiratory illnesses or die earlier and have all these health complications as a result. And of course, this waste finds its way into our water system into our creeks and ultimately our rivers and then into the Gulf of Mexico, you know.

• 1:01:09Adam Skolnick?

  Kills fish, kills reefs.

• 1:01:11Rich Roll?

  It's really bad.

• 1:01:12Adam Skolnick?

  We, I covered this with pork in east North Carolina. I've been into homes where they've had to deal with pig shit, literally slapping the windows in their house, you know, covering their houses and saturating in in east North Carolina. The and the thing is, when you actually pan back from that process, the chicken producers, the pork producers, the people actually farming the chickens, raising the chickens, raising the pigs, they barely get by.

• 1:01:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Adam Skolnick?

  The money is these is the big companies and the processing plants. So they own they're profiting. So that's why they're going after this and and there is Alice tells me there'll be other states where there are similar lawsuits are going to happen. It's all going to start to unfold as we go forward. She couldn't tell me where, but there are going to be other lawsuits. This is the first of a cascade.

• 1:02:05Rich Roll?

  So this was just filed and who who's?

• 1:02:07Adam Skolnick?

  This is filed a couple of months ago.

• 1:02:08Rich Roll?

  Who's the plaintiff? Who's the?

• 1:02:11Adam Skolnick?

  The plaintiffs are the unions for these employees.

• 1:02:13Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 1:02:14Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:15Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:02:15Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:16Rich Roll?

  I wonder if if the ag gag laws get in the way or create a barrier when it comes to discovery.

• 1:02:24Adam Skolnick?

  The that's a good question, you know, I mean, I think we'll find out.

• 1:02:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:29Adam Skolnick?

  You know, just got just got filed and we'll see, you know, with the problem with some of these class actions is you never never sees the light of day, they end up settling and, you know, the lawyers make some money and I hope that's not the case here.

• 1:02:42Adam Skolnick?

  But it's interesting how it all kind of comes around where Corinne State gets has their villages burned out, people refuge, they end up, the lucky ones get to come to the United States and this is the reward. So you know, Afghan Afghanistan has its issues, people escape, the lucky ones get on the plane. And where are they gonna land?

• 1:03:01Rich Roll?

  They get plugged right into

• 1:03:02Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, this other system. And, um, you know, it's just the way of the world right now. And it's always has been, I think, with migrants. And there's always been people who've gotten lucky and worked their or have worked their ass off and gotten out of it. Some of those people will go to these Tyson foods and will work their way up and do very well. Um, and some people will, uh, could end up statistics. I mean, that's just the way it goes. But, um, it is, it is the food system as we know it right now.

• 1:03:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, speaking of the food system as we know it right now, we have another legal dispute that we're gonna get into.

• 1:03:35Adam Skolnick?

  Legal corner continues.

• 1:03:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And, and as much as I celebrate the, the innovation and the advent of all of these new, um, plant-based food companies who are creating meat and dairy analogs, um, that, that can supplant the Tysons of the world and render them obsolete. That's a good thing for everybody, right?

• 1:03:58Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right.

• 1:03:59Rich Roll?

  But some of these companies are now becoming the behemoths that they're trying to supplant. And they're not immune from, from behaving badly from time to time. And I think it's important, just from an objective point of view, as an ambassador of the plant-based movement and somebody who wants to see a plant-based future for all of us, I think it's important for our environment, for our health, and for a number of reasons that anybody who's listening to this or watching it understands about where I'm coming from. But we're in a situation right now where Impossible, Impossible Foods, uh, the Impossible Burger, most of you guys know about it. I had the founder and CEO, Pat Brown, on the podcast. We had a nice conversation.

• 1:04:43Rich Roll?

  Well, Impossible is now a massive company. They're valued at $7 billion. I think they've raised $2 billion. Their recent, most recent raise was something like $500 million, um, which is great because we have a huge plant-based food company that's providing an alternative to everybody's favorite cheeseburger. So that's something to be celebrated. At the same time, it's important to hold these companies accountable and in check. And right now, Impossible Foods has sued, uh, another company called Impossible.

• 1:05:19Rich Roll?

  That is essentially a blog and a series of sort of online content created by this guy, Joel Runyon, who's an ultra runner, he's a blogger, he does like motivation stuff and talks about, I think maybe he has a supplement line and talks about like fitness gear and stuff like that. I think he's, he's been doing this for a long time, like many, many years. And he started his blog and his company back in, I should pull up the article, but I think it was like four years before Impossible Foods even, maybe you can pull that up, Adam? Four years before Impossible Foods even existed. And he filed a whole bunch of trademarks.

• 1:06:00Adam Skolnick?

  2010 is when he began it, yeah.

• 1:06:05Rich Roll?

  And he filed his paperwork and secured these trademarks, created a logo and this brand that he's been building ever since for the last 11 years. And if you look at his logo, it does look relatively similar in terms of typeface or font to Impossible Foods. Well, Impossible Foods is now suing him for trademark infringement and they want to obviate all of his trademarks. They want to, they're seeking to cancel pre-existing federal marks that he established over a decade ago.

• 1:06:36Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 1:06:37Rich Roll?

  And Impossible Foods has hired Wilson Sonsini for this, which is, Wilson Sonsini is like the biggest Silicon Valley law firm, like they represent all the tech companies. And, you know, it takes, you know, a lot of money to defend against these suits and Joel's just a dude. I think he lives in Austin or something like that. So it's truly a David and Goliath situation. And...

• 1:07:03Adam Skolnick?

  And Joel claims that he thinks that they're just basically using that muscle to get him to give up.

• 1:07:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:07:09Adam Skolnick?

  But they also want him to pay their legal fees or something.

• 1:07:12Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:07:13Adam Skolnick?

  Crazy.

• 1:07:14Rich Roll?

  And, and it's just, he's just a dude with a blog and a small brand, you know, who's been doing this before Impossible Foods even existed. So it is, it does appear to be a situation in which he's being bullied to relinquish these trademarks that he rightfully and legally secured a long time ago. Now, I haven't read the complaint. I don't know...

• 1:07:33Adam Skolnick?

  It got thrown out.

• 1:07:34Rich Roll?

  What, Impossible Foods, well, there was... There was an article on Bloomberg that I couldn't read because I'm not subscribed to it, but it said that it was tossed on jurisdictional grounds. But I wasn't sure if that was the same case or not.

• 1:07:47Adam Skolnick?

  It seemed to be the same case.

• 1:07:49Rich Roll?

  But Joel has not commented on it as of the time of us recording this. So I'm not sure on the state or the status of this dispute at this moment. But I think irrespective of how this pans out, it's just not a good look for Impossible Foods to be suing the small guy over something like this. Like, look, I'll applaud the plant-based companies when they're suing over labeling restrictions that say they can't call their plant-based meat a burger, or you can't call oat milk milk, or all of that. I think it's bullshit. And I'm glad when people like Miyoko's Kitchen stand up and fight that. But to be beating up on this guy and bullying him out of his trademarks

• 1:08:33Rich Roll?

  when you're in a situation where you're trying to win the hearts and minds of people because we're trying to blaze a better, brighter future for all, it doesn't seem to be a very politically wise move.

• 1:08:46Adam Skolnick?

  It comes off as an elitist asshole thing to do. And you don't have to be an elitist asshole just because you've got a good idea.

• 1:08:56Rich Roll?

  I know. And it's like, does this guy with his blog really...

• 1:09:00Adam Skolnick?

  Nobody cares.

• 1:09:01Rich Roll?

  Is he creating reasonable confusion in the mind of the average consumer that he might be the guy behind the Impossible Burger?

• 1:09:09Adam Skolnick?

  Nobody cares. But the bottom line is, though, that the reason they get away with this and all these big companies do get away with it, Joel sees himself as kind of an example of this happens all the time.

• 1:09:18Rich Roll?

  He made a video on Twitter and a lot of people shared it. So there's been some chatter online about this.

• 1:09:23Adam Skolnick?

  But nobody really cares. Like, the average consumer, when he orders an Impossible Burger, such and such, is not going to even know about this.

• 1:09:29Rich Roll?

  He won't know. And that's why Impossible Foods is not making a statement about this or whatever. They're just going to pursue their claim and whatever happens, happens.

• 1:09:36Adam Skolnick?

  Right. And they got 500 million the other day, so they have the money for it. And Wilson Sancini is billing them.

• 1:09:44Rich Roll?

  They are billing them. Some lawyers are working hard right now on Sand Hill Road.

• 1:09:48Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. Some lawyers have Joel's face on a blackboard.

• 1:09:54Rich Roll?

  Poor Joel.

• 1:09:54Adam Skolnick?

  Poor Joel, man.

• 1:09:55Rich Roll?

  Joel seems like a nice guy.

• 1:09:56Adam Skolnick?

  He does.

• 1:09:57Rich Roll?

  Anyway.

• 1:09:57Adam Skolnick?

  I'm with you on this. And I like Impossible Burgers. I'm not eating them that often anymore because they're not.

• 1:10:05Rich Roll?

  Good for you.

• 1:10:05Adam Skolnick?

  They don't agree with me.

• 1:10:07Rich Roll?

  More Whole Foods.

• 1:10:08Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, you know what I look, take from these last couple of stories, though, is that when you're talking because.

• 1:10:14Rich Roll?

  Is that we're gonna make this all about legal disputes now?

• 1:10:17Adam Skolnick?

  No, this is, this is, this is a food, this is, this is a food comment. As much as I do like the flavor of an Impossible Burger, it still is a processed kind of food that comes from a centralized location. It's still part, it's still kind of a stepchild of the food system that as, as it exists. And I think the healthy way to eat is local. Farmers markets or local markets where you can know where the food, you know, like blueberry. It's, it's astonishing to me that blueberries from Oxnard and Santa Barbara are more expensive than blueberries from Peru. I mean, the idea that the way that people eat in the, the industrial food that's delivered to your average grocery store. And we just buy it.

• 1:11:00Adam Skolnick?

  It doesn't taste the way it's supposed to taste. It's not, it's not as good for the environment. It's not as good for you. You really have to try to get local with your food and that's the only way to eat. And then you're not part of this.

• 1:11:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:20Rich Roll?

  Impossible, Beyond, all of these companies are a pivot away from the ills of animal agriculture. And as such, should be celebrated. The fact that these are alternatives that have found their way into fast food and fast casual restaurants and grocery stores, et cetera. All across the world is a step in the right direction. But just so we're clear, the Impossible Burger is made from a monocroped, you know, series of ingredients that are GMO. It's a processed food. It's not, you know, essentially it's, it's, it's not a health food.

• 1:11:56Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 1:11:56Rich Roll?

  Right? It's problematic in that regard. It's not a perfect thing.

• 1:12:00Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 1:12:00Rich Roll?

  So there's, like anything, there's pluses and minuses with this.

• 1:12:06Rich Roll?

  But.

• 1:12:06Adam Skolnick?

  There's good people on both sides.

• 1:12:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So, next time you go into whatever restaurant, demand your locally harvested Impossible Burger.

• 1:12:15Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, it's a tough sell at Taco Bell, but I try it every time.

• 1:12:18Rich Roll?

  You do. Do you have any locally harvested blueberries?

• 1:12:21Adam Skolnick?

  Where are those?

• 1:12:22Rich Roll?

  At the drive thru?

• 1:12:23Adam Skolnick?

  Where's that tube of avocado paste coming from?

• 1:12:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Right. You'll be met with a blank stare for that.

• 1:12:30Rich Roll?

  I want to shout out my buddy Toby Morse, friend of the pod, friend in real life, one of the most positive, optimistic, cool people you're ever gonna meet, punk rocker behind the band H2O, just a great guy. And he wrote this children's book called One Life, One Chance. I'll hold it up for the camera, which is just such a cool, like, sort of self-created thing that he made, that he's self-publishing. And it's just a cool book for kids. So if you're looking for kind of a groovy gift for the holidays for a young person, or for

• 1:13:10Rich Roll?

  a parent to read to a young person, I would recommend picking this up. It's got a foreword. Well, first of all, I made a little cameo in there. Can you see?

• 1:13:22Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, really?

• 1:13:23Rich Roll?

  Can you pick me out in the lineup?

• 1:13:27Adam Skolnick?

  I believe I can.

• 1:13:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Adam Skolnick?

  Top left.

• 1:13:29Rich Roll?

  Made a little cameo. But it's got this beautiful foreword by our favorite Instagrammer and action hero, Josh Brolin.

• 1:13:38Adam Skolnick?

  The bard of Instagram.

• 1:13:39Rich Roll?

  I know. Which is such a cool thing, that Josh would write this foreword for a children's book, and it's so heartfelt and just lovely.

• 1:13:50Adam Skolnick?

  Josh seems the opposite of a client of Wilson Sonsini.

• 1:13:55Rich Roll?

  He does, doesn't he?

• 1:13:56Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 1:13:57Rich Roll?

  This poet, this Baudelaire stuck in the body of an action hero that is Josh Brolin.

• 1:14:04Adam Skolnick?

  Yes. You sent me his shout out to Jimmy Chin's new book, There and Back. And obviously, we're both huge fans of Jimmy's.

• 1:14:15Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:14:16Adam Skolnick?

  And that was pretty moving, pretty cool.

• 1:14:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Josh published.

• 1:14:21Rich Roll?

  Just a handheld talking to his phone video of him expressing how touched he was by Jimmy's book and he's paging through it and he becomes progressively more emotional as the video goes on where he's literally welling up in tears, talking about how it has inspired him to try to, you know, inject more adventure into his life and his remembrance of friends lost and things like that. And it just, I don't know, it just, it touched me. I thought it was really beautiful.

• 1:14:56Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. His wife comes in like two thirds of the way in and she could, obviously she heard him talking to his phone again and has to heckle him.

• 1:15:05Rich Roll?

  I know. That was funny, wasn't it?

• 1:15:07Adam Skolnick?

  I loved it.

• 1:15:08Rich Roll?

  I want to get the link for Toby's book. So I can shout it out, but I didn't know it. I'm pulling it up right now. I think it's, oh, it's h2o merch.com.

• 1:15:22Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 1:15:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. That's where you can find it. One Life One Chance is the name of the book by Toby Morse with Forward by Josh Brolin. What else have we got?

• 1:15:31Adam Skolnick?

  I think, I think we're heading into the movies.

• 1:15:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we're gonna get it. We're pivoting away from, from litigation.

• 1:15:38Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:39Rich Roll?

  And we're getting into streaming.

• 1:15:41Adam Skolnick?

  Should we take a break?

• 1:15:42Rich Roll?

  We've, yeah, why don't we take a quick break and we're going to be back with some hot picks for your holiday viewing.

• 1:15:56Rich Roll?

  All right, we're back. We're gonna talk movies and streaming, but Adam had a little bit of a revelation during the break.

• 1:16:02Adam Skolnick?

  Yes, Alice Driver just messaged me with national statistics as of October 27th for COVID cases in the meatpacking industry. There has been 60,000 nationwide COVID-19 cases among employees of meatpacking plants and more than 250 deaths. Those are the official statistics and that's nationwide. So.

• 1:16:24Rich Roll?

  So more than double that quote that you gave previously.

• 1:16:28Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right, right, right, right.

• 1:16:29Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:16:29Adam Skolnick?

  But she, like I said, she believes that the deaths at Farx exceed that number.

• 1:16:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:35Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Rich Roll?

  All right, movies.

• 1:16:37Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 1:16:38Rich Roll?

  We haven't done this in a while. So much content has come and gone.

• 1:16:42Adam Skolnick?

  I know.

• 1:16:42Rich Roll?

  Since we last, I could do like a movies and TV podcast every day. I consume a tremendous amount of content.

• 1:16:48Adam Skolnick?

  You know?

• 1:16:49Rich Roll?

  But we're gonna have to restrict this to two projects.

• 1:16:52Adam Skolnick?

  I've been telling you, you need a spinoff.

• 1:16:54Rich Roll?

  A spinoff, a spinoff show.

• 1:16:55Adam Skolnick?

  You need to spin, how long have I, how long have I been telling you that?

• 1:16:58Rich Roll?

  My movie and TV recommendations.

• 1:17:01Adam Skolnick?

  It doesn't stop Bill Simmons.

• 1:17:02Rich Roll?

  That's true, but he's owned that for a very long time. And he started as a sports and as a movies guy.

• 1:17:08Adam Skolnick?

  And pop culture guy.

• 1:17:09Rich Roll?

  And his, his, his movie acumen is impressive.

• 1:17:13Adam Skolnick?

  It's very impressive.

• 1:17:13Rich Roll?

  And he has an incredible memory, like he can remember scenes and it's quite amazing.

• 1:17:18Adam Skolnick?

  My point is, there's room for another RRP.

• 1:17:20Rich Roll?

  Well, we're gonna spend a few minutes today. I will say before we get into the two projects that we're gonna focus on, that I could talk for three hours about Dune, which I loved and I've seen twice in an IMAX theater. Foundation.

• 1:17:35Adam Skolnick?

  You've seen it twice?

• 1:17:36Rich Roll?

  On Apple, Apple Plus. Yeah, I've seen it twice. Of course, I've seen it twice.

• 1:17:39Adam Skolnick?

  Of course, of course, you've seen Dune twice?

• 1:17:41Rich Roll?

  I'm a huge sci-fi guy.

• 1:17:43Adam Skolnick?

  I watched Dune.

• 1:17:43Rich Roll?

  Dune is unbelievable, but we're not gonna get sidetracked, Adam. I do wanna shout out my boy DMAC, Dan McPherson.

• 1:17:50Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 1:17:51Rich Roll?

  Who has an incredible role in Foundation on Apple Plus, which I really enjoyed. It's a breakout performance for him. And I really enjoyed not just watching Dan, but that series as well, which is, which is very inextricably linked to Dune. They share a lot of DNA. Succession, of course. I mean, there's nothing new or revolutionary about being a big fan of Succession. I'm obsessed with that show. I saw Power of the Dog the other night, which I thought was remarkable. The acting performances are amazing, so check that out. Before we get into the first thing that we're gonna focus on though, is there anything else top of mind that you just saw recently? That you wanna at least just check a box and?

• 1:18:34Adam Skolnick?

  Sure. You know, I, I watched King Richard.

• 1:18:37Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did? I haven't seen it yet.

• 1:18:38Adam Skolnick?

  And when I watched the original trailer, I didn't, I wasn't, I mean, it looked, I thought it looked a little corny, to be quite honest with you.

• 1:18:44Rich Roll?

  You also had a, I remember we talked about this weeks ago and you were like, really? King Richard? Like, it's gonna be about the Williams sisters, but it's about the dad?

• 1:18:53Adam Skolnick?

  Here's the thing about me. I'm a cranky asshole sometimes.

• 1:18:57Rich Roll?

  You are. You are a cynical, and we're gonna, you know, we're gonna, I'm gonna have to debate you or throw you down to the mat here when we get into the movie we're gonna talk about a lot, I think. We're gonna disagree.

• 1:19:06Adam Skolnick?

  But, uh, but being, be that as it may, uh, I, I actually thoroughly enjoyed King Richard. Um, my problem was when you have the two greatest, two of the greatest, including the greatest women's tennis player ever, and then to tell their story and call it King Richard, I thought was problematic.

• 1:19:24Rich Roll?

  It is a little weird.

• 1:19:25Adam Skolnick?

  But this, and this is actually the point, the movie only goes to the point where Venus is 14 and she just first turns pro. So it's everything before that.

• 1:19:34Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:34Adam Skolnick?

  And, um, I'm guessing there was a carve out in terms of life rights that allow, that is going to allow for hopefully like a Michael Jordan-esque 10-part series about the Williamses.

• 1:19:43Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:19:43Adam Skolnick?

  Because, um, that has to come. They fully deserve it. And this, though, was extremely entertaining. You learn a lot about how much they worked and how much effort it took, uh, to get the girls to be taken seriously by the tennis, uh, you know, elites.

• 1:20:02Rich Roll?

  Establishment.

• 1:20:03Adam Skolnick?

  And then how many times they were, uh, tried to be taken advantage of, the, how many beatings Richard took, both in Compton and then, uh, before that. Um, just a remarkable family, a remarkable American story, and some great, great, great performances, not just from Will Smith, but from the girls, from, uh, from everyone in the film, um, that, uh, who play, Oracene, uh, the woman who plays Oracene in the film, let's get her name, uh, she's fabulous. And just a, just a really fun movie. So I've watched that and I've been watching a lot of Curb Your Enthusiasm, which is an epic season.

• 1:20:43Rich Roll?

  That's very character consistent.

• 1:20:45Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 1:20:46Rich Roll?

  With the crankiness.

• 1:20:48Adam Skolnick?

  It is. But this season is spectacular. And it's, to me, like, it, everyone loves Curb. I love Curb even when it's a down season, but the last couple of seasons, it felt like an old guy trying to, you know, trying to get it back.

• 1:20:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:59Adam Skolnick?

  They got it back. I mean, this is a great season. Seth Rogen's in it. Vince Vaughn is a more prominent role. It's really fun.

• 1:21:05Rich Roll?

  I've, uh, I watched the first episode of the new season, but I fell off, so I gotta get back into that. But on, on King Richard, I mean, first of all, Oscar bait completely, right?

• 1:21:15Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:15Rich Roll?

  Like, this is gonna, you know, get a ton of nominations. Um... And although I haven't seen it yet, my understanding is that it really

• 1:21:26Rich Roll?

  buries this myth. I mean, my recollection of that time, which is relatively vague because I'm not a huge tennis person, was that was that Richard was sort of a, you know, Daddy Marinovich, like this hard-driving, like really super aggressive, you know, win-at-all-costs kind of dad, and he got painted that way. So this movie really flushes that out, the real character and the real human.

• 1:21:51Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, he wasn't that. He saw those types of tennis dads and he didn't like them.

• 1:21:56Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:21:57Adam Skolnick?

  And he wasn't that. And the fact that, you know, you see all the his whole thing was about avoiding burnout. He didn't have them play a lot of juniors. They played juniors for a little bit and then he shut that down and that pissed off the coaches and no one wanted, you know, you'll never get the sponsorship, you'll never get X, you'll never get Y. He proved all that to be bullshit. He said no to the first several big-dollar contracts that were offered to Venus even when she was 14. And it wasn't just his decision. He had Venus weighing in on it.

• 1:22:25Adam Skolnick?

  Just incredible what they've been able to do. And he said it from the beginning, they're going to be two the two greatest of all time. And Venus was the pioneer, that was the first to go through the hell and pave the way. And Serena came up behind her. And you could also see how Serena, because, you know, Venus got to play juniors and Serena wasn't supposed to. Venus got to go pro and Serena wasn't allowed to. You could see that, how that might have cultivated within Serena, this like, you know, world-class fighter that was going to take what she wanted. And what an incredible athlete.

• 1:23:03Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, I look forward to checking that out. But we have to pivot our attention to the greatest documentary ever made.

• 1:23:09Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 1:23:10Rich Roll?

  The Beatles, Get Back. Adam Skolnick.

• 1:23:14Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 1:23:14Rich Roll?

  Thoughts?

• 1:23:16Adam Skolnick?

  Well, I don't know why you think we're gonna disagree about this. I enjoy, I'm enjoying it.

• 1:23:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we have a little bit of a difference of opinion, which we can get into in a jocular way. I mean, I'll just share like, I was, I'm in, I'm halfway through part two, but after watching part one the other night, I went into it, I saw the trailer, but I tried to avoid reading anything about it because I wanted to go into it fresh. And, you know, I love the Beatles. When people say Beatles or Stones, like, I don't understand the question. To me, there's no contest. Like, I'm, I'm not like a Beatles fanatic, but to me, the Beatles hold a very special place in the, you know, encyclopedia of music. I absolutely love them. But I did go into the documentary, maybe with high expectations, but also not knowing what to

• 1:24:02Rich Roll?

  expect. I wasn't even sure about the timeframe or what it was that they were gonna focus on. Other than that, there was all this found footage, and Peter Jackson was gonna take it and turn it into something. And I found myself just absolutely riveted by this documentary, which, for a lot of people, might be an acquired taste because it takes its time, it's not story-driven, it's a fly-on-the-wall scenario in which you're observing the band trying to put together a variety of songs for a live show, an album, and a documentary. And this is footage that was taken in the winter of 1969, the month of January of 1969, chronicling

• 1:24:44Rich Roll?

  this process, that at times can feel, for the non-fan, to be painfully slow and laborious. But I found it to be like, like, like this, like, the unearthing of an historic document that belongs in the Smithsonian, because it chronicles the birth of some of the greatest songs ever written. And you see them as they emerge in the...

• 1:25:15Rich Roll?

  You know, in the dynamic, in the, in the challenging dynamic that the band is facing at the time because they're on the precipice of breaking up.

• 1:25:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. I agree with you. It's, it's like a fly on the wall in a room with geniuses. Plus George and Ringo and.

• 1:25:30Rich Roll?

  See, this is where.

• 1:25:31Adam Skolnick?

  I kid, I kid, I kid.

• 1:25:33Rich Roll?

  Jason's gonna, Jason's gonna come out here and strangle you. I gave Jason, major Beatle fan, George and Ringo fan editorial.

• 1:25:42Adam Skolnick?

  I kid.

• 1:25:42Rich Roll?

  Purview over your words. So if you speak out of school, it's getting cut from the podcast.

• 1:25:47Adam Skolnick?

  First of all, I love George and Ringo. Um, I especially love Ringo now. Cause like.

• 1:25:53Rich Roll?

  Well, Ringo comes out really like, I think if you just sort of take Twitter's temperature on this, there's a lot of love for Ringo right now.

• 1:26:01Adam Skolnick?

  A friend of mine, uh,

• 1:26:05Adam Skolnick?

  married the, the, a friend of mine, uh, married, Brooke Fine, married, uh, the guitarist, uh, of, who was the lead guitarist for Ben Harper for years. And he also played with Ringo and raved about Ringo's musical acumen, acumen. Watching this, I watched the first, the full first episodes, two and a half hours. It was 240 or something like that.

• 1:26:23Rich Roll?

  Right. The whole thing, all three parts is something like eight hours.

• 1:26:25Adam Skolnick?

  Eight, eight, eight and a half or something. Eight. Yeah. Um, and I could see why. Cause you know, the thing is there's 40 plus hours of footage and, uh.

• 1:26:35Rich Roll?

  Fifty six hours.

• 1:26:36Adam Skolnick?

  Fifty six hours. Okay.

• 1:26:37Rich Roll?

  And then like over a hundred hours of audio.

• 1:26:39Adam Skolnick?

  So it's, you know, if I'm Peter Jackson, I want to give the most I can. And I think he's done it. He has such a light touch. You don't see him in it, but you know, it's so artfully edited that he's obviously done such a great work. Um, and, uh, so anyway, Ringo, I, I love Ringo in this. I think he, he's there. He's, oh, he's working hard. He's, he's basically attached himself to Paul's hip, but he's also like always present.

• 1:27:10Rich Roll?

  Shows up on time.

• 1:27:11Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 1:27:11Rich Roll?

  Never.

• 1:27:12Adam Skolnick?

  Very punctual.

• 1:27:13Rich Roll?

  Never a negative word comes out of his mouth.

• 1:27:15Adam Skolnick?

  If Paul is in studio, Ringo's in studio.

• 1:27:18Rich Roll?

  But Ringo, because he's not writing the songs and because he's the drummer, he has to sort of sit quietly while this dynamic, songwriting dynamic is playing out.

• 1:27:30Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. He surfs it.

• 1:27:31Rich Roll?

  And I watched part one with my boys, Trapper and Tyler, and Trapper's a drummer. And Trapper, Trapper was like. Never have I ever seen an on-screen persona that I more heavily identified with than Ringo. Cause I've, I've been present for, I don't know how many hundreds of hours of watching the boys rehearse with their cousin and different band members. And, um, and Trapper being the drummer, he, I mean, there were lots of times where he's just sitting on his, at his drum kit, like reading a book or looking at his phone while everybody's arguing or working something out. And that's exactly kind of the Ringo vibe. Like he's just chilling at the kit.

• 1:28:14Rich Roll?

  Ready to go whenever they figure out what they want to do.

• 1:28:17Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. Ringo is the tweener that's wondering when mom and dad will stop yelling at each other. Um, I, you know what was cool though to see like, I, I love seeing Ringo at the piano. I loved seeing, um, you know, uh, John on bass and, and, and, and he could see Paul tell Ringo, um, what riff he wants and talk to George about the mechanics of what he was looking for, for a particular song. Um, I think it's get back or one of the songs and, and to be able to see Paul just like rocking his chair and actually create, get back in such a riveting way. You thought Ringo looked bored. I thought Ringo got it and was hooked. Like I, I, I felt him like getting it where George seemed like he was yawning. He's like, oh, this shit again.

• 1:29:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I tweeted that. There's a, there's one scene that's just unbelievable where Paul is literally creating get back out of whole cloth in real time. Like you can see it percolating up in his consciousness and he's playing it. And you hear the kind of, you see where it's going and there's George yawning and like, look, it's not a slight on George. Like maybe they'd been there like eight hours and he'd been doing that for three hours. Who knows? To me, Ringo looked bored too, but the idea that you're a fly on the wall and you're seeing the inception of these phenomenal songs, just percolate up out of nothing is really miraculous. The same thing happens with let it be.

• 1:29:43Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:43Rich Roll?

  Paul's like at the piano and he's starting to play, let, he's working it out and. Everybody around him is like talking about a bunch of bullshit. Like they're like distracting, they're doing other stuff and you're like, do you realize what's happening right now? Like how incredible that there were cameras rolling at that very moment.

• 1:30:02Adam Skolnick?

  And it seems like he starts with a melody and maybe a hook in the vocals and then he builds the rest of it. He is not worried about the words as much.

• 1:30:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the lyrics, like, yeah, they just come through a lot of the lyrics and they kind of figure it out in a group setting.

• 1:30:14Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, and then, and then John.

• 1:30:16Rich Roll?

  They're very cavalier about the lyrics.

• 1:30:17Adam Skolnick?

  John is much more the words guy, it seems to me. Although then Paul edits him a little bit like this is like too on the nose or too corny and, and um, you know, that that stuff to me, to be able to see the creative process of one of the greatest partnerships in all of creation, um, certainly in all of, of, of, I guess, western popular culture. Um, to be able to witness that is, is spectacular. The reason that you're saying that it's not for everybody is that some people just want to listen to the hits and they don't really need to get into the minutia. So for them, and that's certainly the case of people I watched it with, they thought it was a little bit too slow. And that it was a little too aimless and it was like a little too, a little too.

• 1:30:58Rich Roll?

  See, I would sit, I would sit through all 56 hours of it unedited. Because I think it's such a, a rare and precious glimpse into, uh, not only genius, but the creative process in general. Like if you have any interest in how creativity operates, especially in a group setting, whether you're a musician, a writer, a screenwriter, a TV writer, anybody who's trying to birth something unique and creative into the world and has to do it with other people, to observe how some of the greatest songs ever crafted came together with a group of people who, you know, were having issues at the time. And I think it also is a litmus test.

• 1:31:46Rich Roll?

  Regarding like how attuned you are to what those creative processes look like, like have you had experience with them or not? People who have not been in bands or haven't been in TV writing rooms or things like that could observe what was happening with the band and say, oh, you could tell they're not getting along, you could tell like this band's about to break up, this is all falling apart. But if you've been in a band or you have like tried to collaborate on something creative, like I saw that and I thought they have a really, because there's this narrative like, oh, they all hated each other and they were breaking up, they couldn't communicate. I saw very healthy communication. They would disagree about things.

• 1:32:26Adam Skolnick?

  They didn't seem to hate each other.

• 1:32:27Rich Roll?

  But they always treated each other with respect and grace. They maintained their equanimity at all times. There was always levity and comedy, like they're always cracking jokes. They had their difficult moments and I don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen it because things actually go down like shit hits the fan and stuff like that. But overall, like I saw a group of people who really love each other and were trying to do something.

• 1:32:53Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, George did seem a little pissy, I will say that.

• 1:32:57Rich Roll?

  Well, we'll let people watch it and form their own opinion about that. I know you have issues with George.

• 1:33:03Adam Skolnick?

  I always loved George. Here Comes The Sun, you know, what's the other one I love?

• 1:33:09Rich Roll?

  There's something very special between Paul and John that made it very difficult for someone like George, who is extremely gifted, to have his voice being heard. And that's got to be really challenging. And Paul and John, you know, admit as much in the film. And so that's kind of where things start to go a little bit sideways. But let's not forget how young these guys were.

• 1:33:37Adam Skolnick?

  All of them were young.

• 1:33:38Rich Roll?

  I mean, George was 26, I think, and I think Paul and John were 28.

• 1:33:42Adam Skolnick?

  I think John was 28 and Paul was 27 or something.

• 1:33:46Rich Roll?

  27, it's unbelievable.

• 1:33:47Adam Skolnick?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:33:49Rich Roll?

  It's unbelievable because you, I would have thought like even being a fan like, oh, they broke, like if you said to me, how old were they when the, when the Beatles broke up? I would have said, I don't know, 35.

• 1:33:58Adam Skolnick?

  Right. No, no, I knew, I knew that they were like 29 or something like that.

• 1:34:01Rich Roll?

  It's amazing.

• 1:34:02Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. And I thought it was fun to see Yoko and Linda and Ringo's wife, who I'm spacing on her name, looking so good. And then George's Hari Krishna buddies look great.

• 1:34:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So.

• 1:34:18Adam Skolnick?

  Sorry, Jason.

• 1:34:21Rich Roll?

  Yes. George brings in, there's a couple Hari Krishna monks that sit in the corner at, what's the studio called again? It has a very British name like Wickham or something like that. Twickenham.

• 1:34:32Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:33Rich Roll?

  And then Yoko, who pulls up a chair and kind of sits right with the group. And what you notice over time is although there is something a little bit presumptuous about her kind of inserting herself right into the middle of this dynamic, she never says a word.

• 1:34:54Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 1:34:55Rich Roll?

  She's not bothering anyone. And it really upends that narrative that like Yoko Ono broke up the band. Like you, it's, it's hard to make that argument after you observe this.

• 1:35:05Adam Skolnick?

  You know, I said that to a friend who has not seen this yet, but who said the Let It Be documentary is kind of the opposite of that. And I didn't see the Let It Be documentary. Did you see that? Where it makes it seem, it kind of plays up the divisions a bit more. They are angry at each other that, that Yoko is kind of getting in the way. It doesn't seem that way in this particular setting.

• 1:35:23Rich Roll?

  Part two, Paul kind of addresses it directly.

• 1:35:25Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 1:35:26Rich Roll?

  And kind of, you know, puts those rumors to bed.

• 1:35:29Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 1:35:30Rich Roll?

  I mean, they acknowledge like, okay, like they acknowledge like, oh, well, Yoko's here. What does that mean? And they talk about it. I think the bigger issue is that when Brian Epstein passed away, they didn't have like a team captain anymore. There was a power vacuum.

• 1:35:47Adam Skolnick?

  Explain who Brian Epstein was.

• 1:35:49Rich Roll?

  So he was like their manager from the get go and somebody that they, you could tell in the movie like how much they loved and trusted and respected this guy. They call him Mr. Epstein.

• 1:35:58Adam Skolnick?

  He was their dad. He put him in suits. He told him what to dress, how to do it.

• 1:36:02Rich Roll?

  And they would do it. And then when he's gone, there's a power vacuum that I think, you know, I would, I would intuit that Paul fills, fills like when you watch this documentary, you realize like. Paul's really the leader, like, nothing gets done without Paul. He's the only one who has any interest in any organization or productivity here, because it's a bunch of artists and they think and do things differently. And he's really trying hard, in the best way, to try to drive this train forward and get something done. But without Paul, like, nothing gets done.

• 1:36:36Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:37Rich Roll?

  That's clear. But without Epstein, I think it created this weird dynamic where Paul had to fill a certain power vacuum, but then that can lead to resentment.

• 1:36:49Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right. It would allow Paul to be Paul with someone else for them to talk to. George could have talked to Brian or John could.

• 1:36:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:58Adam Skolnick?

  And because you need Paul as the engine, he's always gonna be the engine. He's the, he is the conductor in a way.

• 1:37:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:05Adam Skolnick?

  But to see them all together and make their magic and to have George come in with a fully realized song he wrote in an hour or at home the night before and then have Paul just invent them in front of your eyes.

• 1:37:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're like, "Oh, I had this idea last night." And then they sit down and it's like 70% of the song is there. And they're working it out and they're trying different things. And because you know the song so well, you're like, "No, no, don't do that. It's like this."

• 1:37:26Adam Skolnick?

  And how about the original, the original words for "Don't Let Me Down" was like on the road to Rishikesh or on the road, something like that, that John was singing and playing. And then he did one, he brought in a vinyl demo of "Across the Universe" for them to listen to and then they all got into it. I mean, like, so the different approaches that they take. Like, he actually did a whole demo of "Across the Universe" for people. And, you know, there's this other thing I want to get out, because I've read, I did a little bit of reading on the show before watching it. And I, like you, I stopped whenever a spoiler kind of came up. But one thing I, that I noticed a theme of was "Let It Be" is considered this lesser album.

• 1:38:08Adam Skolnick?

  And partly because of Phil Spector kind of doing some, you know, desk fuckwit stuff with it later. But in reality, there's five classics on this song.

• 1:38:20Adam Skolnick?

  On this album, "Cross the Universe, Let It Be, Get Back, Don't Let Me Down, and Two of Us", which I think is great. And then you have George, some of George's songs which are great. And, um, I mean, it's like, to me, I love the album.

• 1:38:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:32Adam Skolnick?

  Uh, but it is considered a lesser album, which I don't quite understand.

• 1:38:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, that's, that's interesting.

• 1:38:38Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:39Rich Roll?

  Can we talk about Glenn Johns?

• 1:38:41Adam Skolnick?

  Glenn Johns?

• 1:38:42Rich Roll?

  I mean, what a superstar this guy is.

• 1:38:45Adam Skolnick?

  Wait, Glenn Johns?

• 1:38:45Rich Roll?

  In the background, he's the-

• 1:38:46Adam Skolnick?

  The Hammer?

• 1:38:47Rich Roll?

  Basically, no, that, that guy would, no, not that guy. Glenn Johns was the-

• 1:38:52Adam Skolnick?

  Hammer swinger?

• 1:38:53Rich Roll?

  Sound engineer slash producer slash sort of silent Beatle member.

• 1:38:57Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:58Rich Roll?

  Who, first of all, always has the best outfit. Like, that guy's just rocking it.

• 1:39:02Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:02Rich Roll?

  Comes in with the scarf and the crazy sunglasses and the, like, alligator skin jacket.

• 1:39:06Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:07Rich Roll?

  And the whole thing, and is in charge of creating the sound for all of this. There's one song, I can't remember, because I watched part one a couple of days ago at this point, where they're, they're, they're, they're, they have a hurdle with one of the songs they're working out, and they keep going back and forth and it's not working. And that was one of those situations where I was like, no, not that, not that. And Glenn says one thing, and it like, solves a problem.

• 1:39:29Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:39:30Rich Roll?

  You remember that?

• 1:39:30Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I do remember that.

• 1:39:31Rich Roll?

  And then he's, he's really like, kind of this unsung hero in the whole thing behind the scenes.

• 1:39:36Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, no, I do remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:38Rich Roll?

  And like, just an absolute legend.

• 1:39:39Adam Skolnick?

  Did he produce the record?

• 1:39:40Rich Roll?

  I don't know. Jason, do you know? Like, Glenn is just an absolute legend, though, right?

• 1:39:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Zeppelin, Stones, Who, yeah, and it's Let It Be. He comes up with the declining line.

• 1:39:50Rich Roll?

  Right, and Let It Be, right, exactly.

• 1:39:52Adam Skolnick?

  Sorry, Jason, sorry about what I said. Jason just gave me, just gave me a dirty look.

• 1:39:56Rich Roll?

  Getting a stink eye from Jason? How dare you?

• 1:39:59Adam Skolnick?

  Jason, I love you.

• 1:40:00Rich Roll?

  So, the, the, the film comes out and Jason just basically sits and watches the whole thing in one sitting, ostensibly, right?

• 1:40:08Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. Jason, like, didn't get dressed that day, he just sat there.

• 1:40:11Rich Roll?

  I mean, I literally, my head was exploding when I was watching part one. I just couldn't believe what I was witnessing. I was so, um- Grateful that this thing exists and that we got to have, you know, be able to witness this thing happening. It was, I just, I just thought it's absolutely magical. Like you said, maybe it's not for everyone, but for me, I was like, just injected into my veins.

• 1:40:36Adam Skolnick?

  How did Peter Jackson get a hold of this stuff?

• 1:40:38Rich Roll?

  Um, I don't know. I'm sure I didn't. Yeah, I haven't read up on that, but I know it's, it's taken him quite a long time to like, pull this thing together. And there's been a team of people working on it for, for a while.

• 1:40:49Adam Skolnick?

  Well, he lives in Middle Earth. It's hard to get the footage there.

• 1:40:52Rich Roll?

  So all the, while the footage was sitting in a vault somewhere owned by Apple Core, right? And somehow he got permission. They never used it for anything. The intention was that there was going to be this documentary that for whatever reason, they decided, well, there's nothing here. There's, it's funny because in the thing they're like, how's the documentary going? And the director, who's a character in his own right with the cigar and the whole thing. He's like, I don't know. He's like, I don't think we have a documentary. When things start going sideways and John's like, what do you mean? It's taking off. Like, this is, it's now it's getting good.

• 1:41:25Adam Skolnick?

  It's pretty funny. How about the guy that like?

• 1:41:27Rich Roll?

  And then it's all like, and it looks like yesterday. Like, I don't know how much cleaning up of the footage.

• 1:41:32Adam Skolnick?

  It looks great.

• 1:41:33Rich Roll?

  Uh, had to be done, but it literally looks like yesterday. And the fact that they have, there's like a boom mic over all these private conversations that they were able to capture.

• 1:41:42Adam Skolnick?

  Yesterday. Um, I like the hammer swinger. The hammer swinger who like is a close talker as well.

• 1:41:48Rich Roll?

  No, he's, he's, he's like, he's become a meme on Twitter too. Cause like he's such a hero. Like he gets to bang, bang the hammer on the anvil.

• 1:41:55Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:56Rich Roll?

  To chime in on the song. Jason, what's that guy's name?

• 1:41:58Speaker 02

  That was their, um, road manager.

• 1:42:01Rich Roll?

  The road manager. Right. Yeah.

• 1:42:03Adam Skolnick?

  He does, he is a close talker, is he not?

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:06Rich Roll?

  But he's great. He's great.

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  Did you see them, of the footage of the Beatles, like early sixties playing in DC?

• 1:42:12Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:12Speaker 02

  Matt Evans is the guy that comes out on stage and spins Ringo's Drum Riser.

• 1:42:17Adam Skolnick?

  Oh.

• 1:42:18Speaker 02

  Crowd on the other side.

• 1:42:19Adam Skolnick?

  Ah.

• 1:42:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's one of the guys from like the original.

• 1:42:22Adam Skolnick?

  That's cool.

• 1:42:23Rich Roll?

  Um, and what's the director's name is something Lindsey Hogg, right?

• 1:42:27Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, that guy.

• 1:42:27Rich Roll?

  So he's the guy with the cigar and it's so funny like Taika Waititi tweeted, he's like, this guy again trying to get them to go to Libya for the concert. It's like, they don't want to do that, you know?

• 1:42:39Adam Skolnick?

  Pretty funny. I just love watching them in that room together, so.

• 1:42:43Rich Roll?

  How about when Linda comes in and starts taking pictures?

• 1:42:46Adam Skolnick?

  Amazing.

• 1:42:47Rich Roll?

  And then you see the pictures that she's taking.

• 1:42:49Adam Skolnick?

  Amazing.

• 1:42:49Rich Roll?

  It's unbelievable.

• 1:42:50Adam Skolnick?

  Soft focus and yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:53Rich Roll?

  I mean, I get emotional just thinking about it and then I'm like, why am I so emotional about this? But it is, it's music history.

• 1:42:59Adam Skolnick?

  It's beautiful. It's okay to be emotional.

• 1:43:00Rich Roll?

  It is, it is music history. It really is a beautiful thing. So, um, what else can we say?

• 1:43:07Adam Skolnick?

  About that?

• 1:43:08Rich Roll?

  Just about the movie.

• 1:43:11Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, I'm still, I still have two episodes to go, so I'm pretty stoked. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens. I saw the, the end of the first episode. I was like, woo, I got to see, um, Ringo's Fat Estate. Ringo is, uh, Ringo's a hero to many, I think.

• 1:43:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:27Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:28Rich Roll?

  Just his disposition throughout the whole thing is so laudable.

• 1:43:32Adam Skolnick?

  It is.

• 1:43:33Rich Roll?

  You know, team player.

• 1:43:34Adam Skolnick?

  He's a team player and he's like chill and.

• 1:43:37Rich Roll?

  Thing like it's funny.

• 1:43:38Adam Skolnick?

  The others aren't pretending to be spiritual, but Ringo is spiritual.

• 1:43:41Rich Roll?

  You've got your George issue and blah, blah, blah.

• 1:43:43Adam Skolnick?

  I never did though. I never did.

• 1:43:44Rich Roll?

  Here's the thing, these guys are artists. They don't, they don't function like, it's like, who cares who showed up on time? Ultimately, all that matters is how great the album is.

• 1:43:53Adam Skolnick?

  Ringo cares, okay?

• 1:43:54Rich Roll?

  Obviously, all of those personality peccadilloes can either, um, make the band grow closer together or, or split them apart. So it's not, you know, it is important, but what you see is Paul being this guy who shouldered the mantle of, of being responsible for getting stuff done. You have John who's consistently coming in late, but in good spirits and it takes John a long time to get warmed up, but once he gets warmed up and he gets in sync with Paul, magic happens. And then you see them telling jokes and screwing around and, you know, having fun. And you think, well, that's not productive, but that's important for the whole creative process. Like you can't have one without the other. And, you

• 1:44:37Rich Roll?

  know, artists, they just, they're sensitive beings and they don't function, you know? Rationality isn't necessarily a priority.

• 1:44:44Adam Skolnick?

  I agree. Look, I'm not saying it matters. You don't have to be on time, especially if you're John Lennon. So here's the thing. George didn't have to show up on time, but he damn sure had to get there before John Lennon. And Ringo couldn't be last. You know, Ringo had to be first. So yes, it doesn't matter, but it does matter. There is still standing. There is still the hierarchy. John could be last. Paul could have been last too, but John, but he would never be last because he knows someone has to be there first. And if he gets there, he knows Ringo will get there. So then there's waiting for two people. I mean, that's just part of the workman like thing. That's what you're seeing in this, which I like. I'm not criticizing John for being late at all or George, but I just think it is interesting.

• 1:45:27Adam Skolnick?

  George definitely was, he was late, but he wasn't as late as John.

• 1:45:31Rich Roll?

  I got you. Also, I appreciate all the little details like the, the kind of roadies who come in and give them tea.

• 1:45:39Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:39Rich Roll?

  And there's always toast.

• 1:45:41Adam Skolnick?

  I love the tea and toast.

• 1:45:42Rich Roll?

  Toast and marbling. And, and the sound recorder for the documentary is Alan Parsons.

• 1:45:48Adam Skolnick?

  Amazing.

• 1:45:49Rich Roll?

  It's unbelievable.

• 1:45:50Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:51Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 1:45:52Adam Skolnick?

  Well, so watching that alongside this other doc that you turned me on to Todd Haynes directed doc, The Velvet Underground. It's called Velvet Goldmine. Is that right?

• 1:46:00Rich Roll?

  Uh, yes.

• 1:46:01Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:02Rich Roll?

  Oh, no, Velvet Goldmine was another movie that Todd Haynes did.

• 1:46:04Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 1:46:05Rich Roll?

  That was a narrative.

• 1:46:06Adam Skolnick?

  So this is Velvet Underground doc.

• 1:46:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:46:08Adam Skolnick?

  It doesn't really have a title.

• 1:46:10Rich Roll?

  I think it's just Velvet Underground.

• 1:46:11Adam Skolnick?

  Velvet Underground. And it's the kind of like a partner to this other thing, whereas Peter Jackson's got the invisible hand doing incredible work. Todd Haynes is definitely mixing it up. You see his hand, but it's remarkable.

• 1:46:27Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:46:27Adam Skolnick?

  And he's using incredible filmmaking techniques to create this hypnotic split screen tiled artistic vision that not only gets you into Lou Reed's mind and John Cale and Shirley Morrison and Mo Tucker and all the entire band, Nico, but also the factory itself and Andy Warhol, who managed the band and.

• 1:46:52Adam Skolnick?

  Man, I want you to talk about this and I've got some things to say, but to see the two of them back to back, it really set my mind and my brain into such a lovely swirl. It really was a, it kind of got me thinking about the nature of creativity in general.

• 1:47:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, these movies, I think, go very well together for that reason. They're both time capsules about very romantic periods. I mean, I have an irrational romantic attachment with New York City during the period of Warhol's Factory, and so this is like, you know, right up my alley, this kind of movie. But I think what's interesting about both of these movies, and in particular, the Velvet Underground movie, is that most rock documentaries are talking heads reflecting upon the past. Whereas both of these movies really immerse you in a present moment. They're experiential, like you're with the Beatles when they're recording this album.

• 1:47:51Rich Roll?

  And similarly, you're with the Velvet Underground because they have a lot of footage of them in their genesis phase, so you're experiencing that band at its inception and living with them as they try to kind of put the pieces together and create something. Of course, there are some talking heads in the Velvet Underground.

• 1:48:09Adam Skolnick?

  But it's spice.

• 1:48:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not, it doesn't form the architecture of the whole movie. And the movie is crafted so that it feels like an Andy Warhol experience. And he uses much of Warhol's film, like Andy Warhol would put a camera on somebody's face, like Lou Reed, and just let it roll for like an hour, right? And Lou would just look into the camera blankly. And he uses the split screen in the movie to use those clips, a lot of black and white, so you feel like you're in. Downtown New York City in the early 1970s. And you can like taste the grit and you can feel the energy. Because that was a period of time in which there was this flourish of interesting

• 1:48:55Rich Roll?

  alternative creativity that was happening. That was very special, that birthed like so many amazing artists, not just in music, but in art and film, theater, et cetera. And I think that's why I have such an obsession with this period of time. And certainly the Velvet Underground occupies a very special place in that, you know, in that kind of conversation.

• 1:49:19Adam Skolnick?

  Interesting, because you know, I wasn't, the context of Velvet Underground, I had all off. I thought they were early 70s. I didn't realize they were like late 60s. And so.

• 1:49:29Rich Roll?

  And this antidote to the, you know, kind of flower power.

• 1:49:32Adam Skolnick?

  They were the counterculture within the counterculture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were, they were the first punk band, I think you could say. I mean, I would say it. Like you would, you would look at it and it's like the sound on the dark side of the doors, you know, or like the drone and the.

• 1:49:47Rich Roll?

  But it was more performance art than punk. And what was fascinating was learning about how, how it all came together, which begins really with, with Kale and his Welsh upbringing as this classical musician who got intrigued with experimental music that was going on in New York City, moves out there for the purpose, sole purpose really of, of kind of spending time with these, these artists who were really pushing the boundary of what even music was, just playing around with tone, right? Like, just let's, how long can we play this tone and immerse ourselves in this sound, you know, just really pushing the envelope of like what people would tolerate

• 1:50:31Rich Roll?

  and what that experience would look like.

• 1:50:33Adam Skolnick?

  The son of a coal miner.

• 1:50:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, amazing story, this guy. But also fascinating is that so many of these important people end up in the same apartment building at 56 Ludlow, which, you know, much like the Chelsea Hotel, becomes this ground zero for.

• 1:50:52Rich Roll?

  All this incredible art that comes out of it. And it was that the kind of proximity of these artists and the free time that they had. Cause I think it caused like, they all lived there because it costs like $25 a month. So they didn't really have to work that much to pay their bills. And they could fuck around all day, experimenting with tone and sound and all of these things.

• 1:51:11Adam Skolnick?

  Their 10,000 hours.

• 1:51:12Rich Roll?

  Do these kind of salons where, you know, all the hipsters would come together. And they would indulge themselves with whatever kind of art, artistic kind of thread that they were pulling at the time.

• 1:51:22Adam Skolnick?

  But the truth is, it might not have gone anywhere because they were playing this, this cafe. And that actually people hated it, except for one person who was in with the factory. I forget her name and she sees it and tells Andy that they have to go there. And they need to see it. And then next thing you know.

• 1:51:40Rich Roll?

  There was a cachet to it, even though like mainstream people were, were hating it. There was a core group of people who were like the cool people who were into it. And the real inflection point was when, and I think Kale says it in the documentary, like at some point during this tonal, you know, experiment, somebody put a, put a, put like an electric guitar pickup on it.

• 1:52:00Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:01Rich Roll?

  And then everything changed.

• 1:52:02Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:02Rich Roll?

  And then Lou Reed wasn't even part of it at the time. There was this guy called Lou Reed and he had a, he had a satchel full of songs. And he enters it, you know, after this tone experience is already kind of well underway.

• 1:52:15Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:15Rich Roll?

  And it becomes this.

• 1:52:16Adam Skolnick?

  Perfect.

• 1:52:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, perfect storm that creates this whole new thing.

• 1:52:20Adam Skolnick?

  And then they add, then Andy Warhol becomes the manager and then brings in Nico.

• 1:52:25Rich Roll?

  Which I didn't know anything about.

• 1:52:26Adam Skolnick?

  Insists and foists Nico upon him. And Nico is this glamazon, like gorgeous, you know, Scandinavian, um, who has this androgynous voice. So it hits on so many Warhol levels, the model type look with the androgyny and, and with this, this drone. And, and you know, obviously Lou is in that, where you know, Lou came up when he was a teenager. He was playing the gay clubs in New York City. Um, you know, so like it was all work and they, and like you said, they hated the hippies. And so it's this very interesting, um, mix. Uh, and like I said, to me, it's like the two of these things together kind of had me.

• 1:53:07Adam Skolnick?

  Contemplating the nature of creativity, which is not something I do very often, but I sometimes it comes up and, you know, what is art? What is music? What is literary form? What is any sort of scene or culture? It just, isn't it just a collective dreaming of what it means to be alive, to be human? And all its ugliness and its beauty and now you have to, the stuff has to hit for money to be made. So you can continue that dream together. But that's not the primary driver and it's not why, what brought John and Paul and George and Ringo together. It's not what brings these people together. You know, it's not the underlying

• 1:53:45Adam Skolnick?

  motivator of any scene and, or any, any collective. You know, like, and to be a part of a scene? How cool is that? Like, you know, like that was always the dream coming up when I wanted to be a writer with my buddy Kelton Reed, when we, we joined forces and we thought we loved the Beats and we loved this era too. And, you know, love reading just kids, Patti Smith being a part of that scene. Right. And, you know, you, you are actually part of a scene. You're like this early podcast. I mean, this is, this is a, this is its own type of scene. It's more, it's a little bit more removed because everyone's dislocated in different places, but you're very much on the forefront of this podcast scene and you're connected to some of these people

• 1:54:27Adam Skolnick?

  who are early innovators in the space, which is I think another interesting art, art form that's just starting to flourish. And, you know, I was talking to not long ago, the head of PR for Audible about something else. And she mentions like neuroscience studies about how part of the reason people love podcasts and love audiobooks is, is when you listen versus when you read, it hits a different part of your brain and it, It gets into the intimacy part where that kind of lights up. And so, you know, it's in its way interacting as a different art form. And the way people used to feel about music, the way I felt about music or my favorite bands and the merch we wore,

• 1:55:12Adam Skolnick?

  is now like shifting into the podcast and YouTube space and people are getting merch for their favorite, you know, creators in a whole different realm. And so this is the kind of stuff I was thinking about while I was watching.

• 1:55:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's funny to hear you say, I mean, I will take it as a compliment. That's cool, but like my brain is thinking, well, I would like if this is a scene, I would trade this scene to hang out with like Spalding Gray and David Byrne and like Lou Reed and Andy Warhol.

• 1:55:37Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:55:38Rich Roll?

  Or whatever was going on down there, like that just seems way more exciting.

• 1:55:41Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:42Rich Roll?

  And interesting.

• 1:55:43Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, and it's less sober, I think.

• 1:55:46Rich Roll?

  No, very much not a sober scene for sure. Perilous probably would have killed me.

• 1:55:51Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:51Rich Roll?

  God spared me from being reared in that time and place.

• 1:55:55Adam Skolnick?

  But you know what I'm saying, right?

• 1:55:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I understand. I mean, it's cool. Like I do think, and it's interesting because my sons are musicians, and I'm always thinking about like the power of community, like what those scenes are. Like you think of grunge and you think of Seattle or you think, you know, it's like what's going on in Nashville and country music. And so I'm often like, or even LA at a period of time when like Beck was coming up. Like there was kind of a scene at Spaceland and Silver Lake and all of that, but that doesn't really exist anymore.

• 1:56:26Adam Skolnick?

  Or Guns N' Roses and the, you know.

• 1:56:28Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:56:28Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like the whole Sunset Strip.

• 1:56:31Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right.

• 1:56:32Rich Roll?

  Like metal era kind of thing.

• 1:56:34Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 1:56:35Rich Roll?

  So I always talk to the, I'm like, you know, tell me what is the scene like in LA? There's like, they're like, there's not really a scene. I mean, there's a little bit of a scene.

• 1:56:43Adam Skolnick?

  I thought that Phoebe Bridgers has a scene.

• 1:56:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's a little bit of that and they're kind of on the, you know, outer periphery of that, I suppose. But not like that scene where you feel like, oh, this is, this is the place where this stuff. Like there's that palpable sense of like, something's happening here.

• 1:57:00Adam Skolnick?

  Because media is so siloed now and there's so much more of it. So there's like the saturation of so much content everywhere. You can't possibly all be tuned into the same channel. But back when the Beatles were coming up or and, and you know, there weren't that many channels.

• 1:57:16Rich Roll?

  But if 56 Ludlow Street didn't exist, does the Velvet Underground?

• 1:57:22Rich Roll?

  Ever come to be.

• 1:57:23Adam Skolnick?

  No, but like Elizabeth Gilbert would say something else would. The world didn't need Velvet Underground. It's nice that it existed, but something else would have been there and it would have been just as cool. It just would have been different. You know, like that's what, but now it's like this, there are so many more scenes and so then you have these kind of micro climates within that world.

• 1:57:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I guess, because it's so, everything's refracted and diffused.

• 1:57:48Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:57:49Rich Roll?

  There is no monoculture, but, but these movements are always a contrast to whatever the monoculture is. Right? No matter where culture exists, the artist's pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction. And there is something to be said for proximity, like now we have digital proximity that kind of resolves a lot of that. But, but you know, the idea that there are a bunch of artists who are basically squatting in an apartment building with nothing better to do than to collaborate all day long. There is something unique about that.

• 1:58:20Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, right. And then, then the fact that cheap rent is a key to kind of getting artists together is obviously well known. That's what happened with Williamsburg when Williams became a thing in the early 2000s. And plenty of bands came out of that era, Seattle in the 90s, you know, like plenty of bands came out of that era. You, you can't take real estate prices out of the, out of that realm there. And so, or rents, not real estate prices, but rent, rent rates. So, um, but it is interesting to think about and plus now it's more global, right? We have access to Korean bands and, and African music. And like, if you like drone music that you're hearing in the Velvet Underground, like, you know, check out the Desert Tura guys that are coming in Mali and Algeria.

• 1:59:04Adam Skolnick?

  And, and you know, listen to those guys, because that's all like blues meets drone.

• 1:59:09Rich Roll?

  Discovery is, discovery is at your fingertips now, whereas it used to be difficult to find new stuff. If you didn't have the cool older brother, the guy to take you, or the guy at the record shop who could tell you what was happening.

• 1:59:21Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right, right. So it's, it's right there for you. So it's just a different era.

• 1:59:26Rich Roll?

  A couple of final thoughts on this documentary though, I, I thought like, It was cool. Like, I didn't really realize that. I mean, you talk about Andy Warhol kind of being in charge, right? Like, that had its pluses and its minuses. Like, without Warhol, does it ever get out of the gate? And yet, after a period of time, like, they become stunted as a result of that relationship and resentment around Nico and all of that kind of occurs that leads to ultimately the dismantling of the band that never really saw the level of success that I thought that it had. Like, it was interesting to hear, like, "Oh, they never really penetrated culture in a way that I thought that they had." That comes much later. And, you know, obviously, Lou goes on to this successful career outside

• 2:00:10Rich Roll?

  of the Velvet Underground. But what I thought was amazing was, like, Sterling Morrison goes and gets his PhD in English and is like a professor for a while, and then he becomes a tugboat captain. And then Mo, the drummer, is like an IT professional. Like, can you imagine, like, you're at your company and, like, you have to go deal with the head of IT or whatever, and you realize she was the drummer in Velvet Underground?

• 2:00:35Adam Skolnick?

  But only the cool ones realize that, because I bet a lot of people went in and out of that office without even having any idea who Mo Tucker was.

• 2:00:40Rich Roll?

  That's amazing.

• 2:00:41Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:42Rich Roll?

  That these lives, you know, having full kind of careers and lives, you know, in the aftermath of being part of something that was so culturally seismic.

• 2:00:52Adam Skolnick?

  Herman Melville became a customs officer after Moby Dick.

• 2:00:55Rich Roll?

  He did?

• 2:00:56Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:56Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that. Wow.

• 2:01:05Rich Roll?

  All right. Let's do some listener questions.

• 2:01:08Adam Skolnick?

  Let's do it. All right, let's go to Al from DC.

• 2:01:13Speaker 03

  Hello, Rich and Adam. This is Al in DC. I'm calling with a question about ramping up my endurance training. I've been doing time-restricted eating and feeling great doing about an 18:06, eating lunch at about 2 o'clock, and stopping my chloric and take at about 8 o'clock. But recently, I've been ramping up my running miles, training for 50K in the spring, and I'm feeling like morning runs, doing 12 or 15-mile training runs, and going another four hours fasted. After that run may not be optimal in my gains and recovery. I'm just curious if you have any insights on how I should be adjusting my chloric and take to optimize my gains during this ramped-up training period. So, if you'd like to place

• 2:01:56Speaker 03

  a question on the air, I appreciate what you guys are doing. Thanks very much.

• 2:01:59Rich Roll?

  Thank you for the question, Al. DC is a great running city, great place to train for 50K. I think your instinct and your intuition is correct. I appreciate the interest in self-experimentation with restricted eating windows. And I think it's fascinating, the kind of science that's coming out around this and the experimentation that so many athletes are doing. My take on this, with the caveat that I think there's a lot of science that needs to be done before we can get total clarity on this, but as I see it now, my perspective is that

• 2:02:40Rich Roll?

  occasional fasted state workouts are okay, and the science does support that there may be a mild adaptation to that stress that enhances aerobic state fat burning. And I've experienced that myself, and I enjoy playing around with that. But I think the emphasis has to be on occasional, because if you're training for a performance goal, which you are doing right now, the key, I don't have to tell you, to success is consistency, consistent training with an emphasis on not only killing all your workouts, but perhaps even more importantly, optimizing your recovery between sessions.

• 2:03:22Rich Roll?

  And I think your current approach of a persistent fasted state will not bode well with this. You simply cannot perform day in and day out with this fasting regimen without something going sideways at some point, because, or at a minimum, failing to timely nourish yourself is only going to deplete you, which you might be able to get through your workout for the day and the next day, but at some point, it catches up to you a couple of days later, often. And this is going to impede your recovery, it's going to impair, potentially even depress your immune system, it may even lead to illness, depriving your body of needed nutrients,

• 2:04:06Rich Roll?

  which is only going to undermine recovery and thus the gains that you're seeking to achieve. I don't think that... I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any elite athletes out there who are trying to train in this manner, or who would entertain doing this. You've got to feel, you've got to feed yourself. You've got to nourish yourself. And as your training ramps up and it becomes more and more, burdensome's the wrong word, like more and more onerous, like you're gonna, you're taxing your system in a way that perhaps you haven't before. If you want to be able to bounce back and do it the following day, you're gonna have to feed those muscles and your body. So again, fasted state, okay, from time to time occasionally. I think it's

• 2:04:50Rich Roll?

  good to stress the body and establish physiologically and also psychologically that you're capable of going out and doing a long run and not eating right away afterwards. I think there's something to be said for that, but not on a daily basis. If you do want to continue to play around with this, I would suggest restricting those fasted training days to maybe one at the most, two days a week, and to do it around your purely aerobic workouts, and to avoid it when you're doing tempo or more anaerobic workouts. So that's my two cents on that. Again, I think what's going on here is interesting, and like I said

• 2:05:34Rich Roll?

  earlier, more science is needed to figure this out.

• 2:05:39Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, science, quotes.

• 2:05:42Rich Roll?

  You and your science.

• 2:05:43Adam Skolnick?

  You and your science. I would fully agree with everything you just said.

• 2:05:47Rich Roll?

  Thank you, Adam.

• 2:05:48Adam Skolnick?

  I'm experimenting with a avocado toast diet right now.

• 2:05:53Rich Roll?

  Pre-workout or post?

• 2:05:55Adam Skolnick?

  Pre, during, post.

• 2:05:56Rich Roll?

  How long after your workout?

• 2:05:57Adam Skolnick?

  And there's zero fasting involved. Every hour is more avocado toast for me.

• 2:06:02Rich Roll?

  When you're not eating, I guess technically you're fasting. Do you have like a 20-minute fasting window?

• 2:06:09Adam Skolnick?

  My biggest fasting-

• 2:06:10Rich Roll?

  Your fasted state?

• 2:06:11Adam Skolnick?

  My biggest fasting window is on roll-on days.

• 2:06:14Rich Roll?

  We've gone a couple hours without you eating. Are you okay?

• 2:06:17Adam Skolnick?

  Get me some avocado toast, stat.

• 2:06:21Rich Roll?

  You're in your fat-burning zone.

• 2:06:25Adam Skolnick?

  Great question. All right, cool. Let's go to Kendall from Boulder, Colorado.

• 2:06:31Speaker 04

  Hi guys, this is Kendall from Boulder, Colorado. My question and/or point of discussion, I guess, is the idea brought up in the conversation with Rain and Riz around the idea of the pursuit of happiness, which is an American, obviously an American thing. And I think it's something I see show up on the pod a bit, but I guess I ask, are we dismissing that aspect of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness because we think that the idea is to achieve happiness, whereas it possibly could be that the forefathers wrote the idea of it being a pursuit without the end ever being achieved?

• 2:07:15Speaker 04

  I know that that was brought up in a couple of different philosophers, but I'm kind of curious what you guys think. Do you think that the pursuit of happiness is an end? Or do you think that it was always meant to be a pursuit? And therefore, the process along the way is what creates the happiness? That's my question. Thanks, guys. Love the conversation.

• 2:07:37Rich Roll?

  Getting deep and philosophical with Kendall from Boulder.

• 2:07:42Adam Skolnick?

  Deep and philosophical with the founding fathers.

• 2:07:45Rich Roll?

  I know. Are we going to be so bold as to try to read the minds of the founding fathers, Adam?

• 2:07:50Adam Skolnick?

  A lot of people are doing that lately. Not in this vein.

• 2:07:55Rich Roll?

  A lot of people are doing that currently.

• 2:07:58Adam Skolnick?

  Currently.

• 2:07:59Rich Roll?

  Across the spectrum.

• 2:08:00Adam Skolnick?

  On a lot of channels.

• 2:08:02Rich Roll?

  Did the founding fathers ever comment on this? Has a legal scholar tried to interpolate what that means? Like whether their focus was on pursuit versus happiness? Has anybody parsed that, to your knowledge?

• 2:08:17Adam Skolnick?

  I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that George Washington was Brian Epstein. And, you know, Ben Franklin was John Lennon.

• 2:08:29Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:08:30Adam Skolnick?

  And...

• 2:08:31Rich Roll?

  Thomas Jefferson.

• 2:08:32Adam Skolnick?

  Thomas Jefferson was Paul.

• 2:08:34Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 2:08:35Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:36Rich Roll?

  Very industrious and productive.

• 2:08:38Adam Skolnick?

  Who's George?

• 2:08:39Rich Roll?

  Who's Ringo?

• 2:08:40Adam Skolnick?

  John Quincy Adams.

• 2:08:43Rich Roll?

  Okay. How do we layer that architecture? No, one of them is Hamilton. Yeah, Hamilton. George is Hamilton. Maybe.

• 2:08:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's an interesting question. I mean, I can't read the minds of the founding fathers. I have no idea what they were thinking about. My interpretation, though, is that it's about the liberty of the pursuit. So whether it's the pursuit of, I don't know whether they ever

• 2:09:08Rich Roll?

  expounded upon how they define happiness, or whether happiness can only be found through the pursuit. I'm not sure that they really thought that through, all that, maybe they did. I don't know. But, but for me, it's about the liberty to pursue. Yes. Right?

• 2:09:26Rich Roll?

  And I don't think,

• 2:09:31Rich Roll?

  you know, it's good practice to be

• 2:09:35Rich Roll?

  orienting your life around this aim of happiness. I mean, happiness is a choice that we have in every moment. We can choose to be happy, we can choose to not be happy. And in my opinion, the pursuit should be focused on meaning and fulfillment and giving back, service, things like that. And I think happiness is a byproduct of doing other things, not an end to be pursued in and of itself. And personally, I mean, the things that make me happy

• 2:10:06Rich Roll?

  are really kind of temporal states, like, oh, I like, you know, jumping in the ocean or, you know, something like that. That makes me happy, but my life isn't in pursuit of jumping in the ocean, right? It's a, it's a fleeting thing that I enjoy that gives me happiness.

• 2:10:24Rich Roll?

  But more broadly, like the things that create

• 2:10:29Rich Roll?

  an extended sense of happiness in my life are not the things that were kind of force fed in our culture, like luxury and convenience and

• 2:10:40Rich Roll?

  what your bank account says and all of that. They're really the result of strain or getting out of my comfort zone, tackling hard things, trying to find a way to give back, pushing my own limits. And as an American, I'm very grateful to have the liberty to explore these things, which in turn ultimately lead to a greater sense of happiness. But I don't think about my life in the context of happiness every day. That's really how it works for me. I don't think that's how it works for anybody.

• 2:11:10Adam Skolnick?

  I think that's what Kendall's getting at. I think he wants you to speak to, I mean, I think he's kind of teeing it up in that way. I think he agrees that it's about the pursuit of some meaning or about the, but, but I think you're also getting at what they're, they're not trying to define pursuit or happiness. So while I agree with you and I think Kendall is, is saying the same thing. And that's why he wants us to speak to this. The idea isn't to happiness as this goal, but the happiness can come in the pursuit. I don't disagree with that. But I think what they were getting at was more creating a, the environment so that everyone felt the feel like they can pursue whatever they want.

• 2:11:52Adam Skolnick?

  And so, um, obviously they didn't, obviously they didn't create that environment, but in their mind, they created it in their, in their narrow construct of what they thought was appropriate and, and good for the white male. But that's, that was that time and that's what they did. And, um, but I think if you look back, they weren't, they weren't actually creating that, but they thought they were, or they tried to frame it that way. But because when you look at studies, if you're in a country where, um, it's, it's harder to get a loan, you can't start a business. You can't, if you look at Venezuela or, or Cuba or these places, there's a lot of unhappiness because the structures of that society aren't allowing for the pursuit of anything really.

• 2:12:33Adam Skolnick?

  Um, and so I think the idea was let's create a place where the crown's not getting in the way, where taxes are low, where, you know, you can really just go out and do what, you know,

• 2:12:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, equitable, equitable access.

• 2:12:44Adam Skolnick?

  Right. Equitable access, which is the thing that we would like to expand because obviously it was imperfect then, it's imperfect now. But, um, that idea of that democracy is obviously something special because it has been replicated in many places. And so, um, I think it was creating the conditions to where we can have discussions like this. Yeah. Without having to, uh, be stressed out about, uh, any sort of.

• 2:13:12Adam Skolnick?

  Overlord or, you know.

• 2:13:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, sure to be a mind reader. I mean, pursuit of happiness in the context of how they were contextualizing it or thinking about it, I think meant or means like the freedom to go do whatever the fuck you want to do, basically, without the crown getting involved, like you said, right? Happiness being a catchphrase for essentially like living the life of your choice.

• 2:13:35Adam Skolnick?

  Right, exactly.

• 2:13:37Rich Roll?

  Have we created that here?

• 2:13:39Adam Skolnick?

  I don't know. And your idea that you don't pursue this jumping in the ocean every day as the father of a 15 month old. It's something I pursue on a daily basis. I don't get in there. It takes a lot of pursuit. And quite frankly.

• 2:13:54Rich Roll?

  But what is the half life of that feeling of happiness that you that that is produced by that?

• 2:13:59Adam Skolnick?

  15 to 30 minutes.

• 2:14:00Rich Roll?

  So that's the thing.

• 2:14:01Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:02Rich Roll?

  It's not a it's it's not a lasting state. It's not a fasted state.

• 2:14:05Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 2:14:06Rich Roll?

  That happiness, is it?

• 2:14:07Adam Skolnick?

  No, that's why I've moved on to the avocado toast.

• 2:14:09Rich Roll?

  Right, all right. Do we answer the question?

• 2:14:11Adam Skolnick?

  I think so.

• 2:14:13Rich Roll?

  Kendall can be the judge.

• 2:14:14Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, Kendall, leave us another voicemail.

• 2:14:16Rich Roll?

  We're moving on now. Let's go to Abby from Colorado.

• 2:14:18Adam Skolnick?

  Abby.

• 2:14:20Speaker 05

  Hey, Rich and Adam. This is Abby from Colorado, and I've been a huge fan of the podcast for around four years now, so thanks for all you do. My question to you revolves around reconciling two different topics that I know have come up on the podcast from time to time and that are challenging for me to try and balance in my life right now. The first of these ideas is resisting the need to be a people pleaser, and the second is maintaining a service mindset. No matter what obstacles in life someone is facing, helping others is one thing that will always bring more joy and fulfillment to anyone's life. In my eyes, the simplest and easiest way to serve others is by being kind. However, I'm also trying to become less of a people pleaser by staying true to my values

• 2:15:03Speaker 05

  and opinions and not bending them to fit the idea of what other people want from me. As an Enneagram type nine, which is the peacekeeper, my natural tendency is to avoid conflict and be liked by others, reinforcing my need to please people. I pair that with the mission of serving others through kindness and warmth, and I find it really hard to be authentically myself while navigating day to day life. So this is one long way of asking, where do you draw the line between people pleasing and serving others? Thanks, and you can definitely show us on the air feedback. Bye.

• 2:15:37Rich Roll?

  Well, Abby, in addition to that being just an amazing question, I feel the need to applaud you for extraordinary self-awareness.

• 2:15:46Adam Skolnick?

  Yes, I thought it was a phenomenal question, yeah.

• 2:15:49Rich Roll?

  It's unbelievable. I wish, I don't know how old Abby is, but like, that level of self-understanding, I think, is huge.

• 2:15:57Adam Skolnick?

  I agree. And I love this anagram type nine. I don't even know what that is, but like, I remember getting really into Tarot and astrology and stuff. I love reading that stuff. I haven't done the anagram.

• 2:16:07Rich Roll?

  All right, this is your assignment before the next roll on. You gotta go do the enneagram and come back and we'll analyze it.

• 2:16:13Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 2:16:14Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 2:16:14Adam Skolnick?

  All right.

• 2:16:16Rich Roll?

  I'll refresh mine and see where I'm at. We can hash it out.

• 2:16:19Adam Skolnick?

  All right, let's do it.

• 2:16:20Rich Roll?

  I think it's a really interesting question. I relate to it a lot. I understand that tension between people-pleasing, serving others, and trying to establish some kind of healthy boundary. And I think unpacking that begins with, first of all, kind of a peek into your motivations. Like, is your service, this kindness, or these other things that you're doing on behalf of others, is it motivated by a desire to be liked? Or is it motivated by the impact that it has on others? And I guess then in turn, your own sense of self.

• 2:17:02Rich Roll?

  Like, sort of getting clear on what your motivations are, I think, is important. And perhaps even more elementary, getting clear about your values. Like, what are your values? So when you're acting in a way that feels like it's not authentically you, that's an indication that your behavior is not aligned with your core values on some level. So, developing a practice of checking your decisions against that value set will help you calibrate your behavior and your level of alignment. So, again, clarity about those values, if you have to write them out. What are those core sets of values? And when, throughout the course of your day,

• 2:17:46Rich Roll?

  when you're people-pleasing and trying to be kind to people or whatever, where do you feel like those behaviors come into conflict with your values? I think it's a good place, or a good lens through which to kind of deconstruct all of this. If... You're people pleasing out of a need to maintain the peace, but that ends up being contrary to your values or violates some kind of personal boundary, then that's good information that you need to realign your behavior to get it more consistent with your value system. So your value system, value set dictates the boundary. And protecting that boundary at times demands

• 2:18:30Rich Roll?

  that you potentially place yourself in conflict with others, which then violates your peacekeeping disposition. And that's where the discomfort comes in, right? Like, you don't want to bum anyone out, but you also want to be true to yourself. And I suspect that you're somebody who would rather say the thing that makes people feel comfortable rather than adhering to a boundary or making sure that you're being true to yourself. And I think that's the growth opportunity, like recognizing that. And when those moments arise, can you set a healthy boundary? Do it graciously so you're not upending the peace unnecessarily.

• 2:19:11Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 2:19:11Rich Roll?

  But also respecting yourself. And I think when you do that, as uncomfortable as it is, there's a little kind of dollop of self-esteem, like a little kernel of self-esteem that you're planting that allows you to start to get more comfortable with who you are. And I think you'll also find that, you know, look, the peacekeeping thing, the people pleasing thing, that comes out of a lack of self-esteem. Like, oh, if I don't tell them what they want to hear, then they're not going to like me. And my opinion, you know, isn't valued or whatever. But in truth, people respect you when you demonstrate self-respect. So by setting a healthy boundary and saying, I'm sorry, I know you want me to do that, but I can't do that, or whatever the case may be, maybe uncomfortable and you're, and every instinct inside your people pleasing body

• 2:19:55Rich Roll?

  will be saying, oh, my God, they're going to hate me now. But ultimately, they end up respecting you more. And then you end up feeling better about who you are. And then that muscle, once flexed, becomes easier to flex the next time.

• 2:20:08Adam Skolnick?

  I love it. Yeah, I mean, I'm a natural people pleaser and want to be kind and all of that, too. I find that like, there is a self motivation, though, to, to act in kindness and grace, because it means you just like move through the world cleaner. You don't have these hangups of, you know, if you, if you create conflict needlessly, you don't, you carry that with you.

• 2:20:37Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 2:20:38Adam Skolnick?

  It can be a drag.

• 2:20:40Rich Roll?

  But I think that, yeah, I get that. I mean, I don't think there's any disagreement around that. I think it's when that urge or disposition to people please, like, let's say you're around a bunch of people that you have issues with or that, you know, say things that you don't agree with, and you just kind of like nod and go along to get along because you don't want to ruffle any feathers. And then you leave and you feel like you have a toxic residue around you because you didn't stand up for yourself, or you didn't acquit yourself in a manner that, that, you know, would be more consistent with what you think is right and true.

• 2:21:16Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, so it's, it's, it sounds like to me, it's about when to, service is, is, is such a, an important thing, and it's cool that she has that in mind. And then not being a pushover is important to be able to serve people.

• 2:21:30Rich Roll?

  Right, but kindness is not antithetical to self-respect and healthy boundaries. You can still be kind and be strong.

• 2:21:39Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 2:21:41Rich Roll?

  So figuring out how to, how to combine those two.

• 2:21:44Adam Skolnick?

  Michelle Obama seems kind and strong.

• 2:21:45Rich Roll?

  Yes, right.

• 2:21:47Adam Skolnick?

  She is who we should all be.

• 2:21:48Rich Roll?

  How about Sylvia Earle or Jane Goodall? Like, they're both very kind people, but are very convicted and very clear on what their values are, and, you know, strong in their opinions.

• 2:22:01Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 2:22:01Rich Roll?

  And don't suffer fools lightly, but are very kind people.

• 2:22:05Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 2:22:05Rich Roll?

  And are amazing examples of, of, of service to humanity.

• 2:22:11Adam Skolnick?

  How about that for?

• 2:22:12Rich Roll?

  I think that's a good.

• 2:22:13Adam Skolnick?

  The triumvirate of role models.

• 2:22:15Rich Roll?

  We landed the plane. We didn't. Did we crash the plane? I don't think we did.

• 2:22:17Adam Skolnick?

  No, there was turbulence.

• 2:22:18Rich Roll?

  It was a pretty smooth landing.

• 2:22:19Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, we had to steer clear of all your controversial ideas about George.

• 2:22:24Adam Skolnick?

  I know. A lot of George.

• 2:22:25Rich Roll?

  The stabilizers.

• 2:22:27Adam Skolnick?

  Hey, dear listeners, a lot of George fans in this building.

• 2:22:30Rich Roll?

  Yes. Yes, there are. Ja-guru, Dave. No one wants to hear me sing.

• 2:22:38Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, we do.

• 2:22:38Rich Roll?

  All right, we're gonna end it.

• 2:22:39Adam Skolnick?

  Let's get the karaoke going.

• 2:22:41Rich Roll?

  It was a pleasure sharing space with you, Adam. How do you feel?

• 2:22:46Adam Skolnick?

  I still have this blister right under my toenail. You ever had one of those?

• 2:22:49Rich Roll?

  Wait, I like how you

• 2:22:51Adam Skolnick?

  Right under that.

• 2:22:52Rich Roll?

  brought it all around, like a good comedian.

• 2:22:54Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:54Rich Roll?

  Brought it back to the beginning.

• 2:22:56Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 2:22:56Rich Roll?

  But I'm not indulging you on that. We're ending it. All right. You can find Adam online at Adam Skolnick. You can follow me at Rich Roll. If you want to leave a question for us to consider talking about on the podcast, you can do that at 424-235-4626. We will have copious show notes on the episode page at richroll.com, so check that. Please, if you haven't done so already, subscribe to the show on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, wherever you enjoy this program. And that's it. I want to thank the team for putting together an amazing episode. I certainly do not do this alone. Jason Camiolo, Beatles fan extraordinaire with equally strong opinions about the Beatles

• 2:23:40Rich Roll?

  lurking in the shadows over there. He is our Glenn Johns. He did the audio engineering production, interstitial music, all the behind-the-scenes stuff. Blake Curtis and Dan Drake are the, what was the name of the Beatles director again? John, what was his name?

• 2:23:55Adam Skolnick?

  Michael.

• 2:23:56Rich Roll?

  Michael Hogg.

• 2:23:57Adam Skolnick?

  Michael Hogg.

• 2:23:58Rich Roll?

  Michael Lindsay.

• 2:23:59Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 2:24:00Rich Roll?

  Blake and Dan are our Michael Lindsay Hogs. We have Daniel Solis on graphics, AJ for TikToks, Davey and Grayson for portraits, and Georgia for copyright, and DK for advertiser relationships. And theme music, as always, by my own Paul Ringo and George Tyler Trapper and Harry.

• 2:24:23Adam Skolnick?

  Is this our last one of the

• 2:24:25Rich Roll?

  The year?

• 2:24:26Adam Skolnick?

  The last roll-on of the year?

• 2:24:27Rich Roll?

  I don't know. Is it?

• 2:24:29Adam Skolnick?

  I don't know. You tell me.

• 2:24:29Rich Roll?

  What are we doing? I think maybe we have one more.

• 2:24:31Adam Skolnick?

  We have one more?

• 2:24:31Rich Roll?

  I can't remember. We might have to chamber a timeless one before I take off for January or whatever that isn't wedded to the news cycle in any way. Because I think we might have to put one up when I'm gone, so we'll figure that out. But until then, appreciate all you guys. Thank you for listening. We don't take your attention for granted, and we'll be back when we're back in some general vicinity of bi-weekly, whatever that means to you.

• 2:24:57Rich Roll?

  Final thoughts?

• 2:24:58Adam Skolnick?

  It's been a pleasure.

• 2:24:59Rich Roll?

  Always.

• 2:25:00Adam Skolnick?

  It's good to be back.

• 2:25:01Rich Roll?

  Thanks, man. I think we did it.

• 2:25:03Adam Skolnick?

  We did it.

• 2:25:04Rich Roll?

  Good enough.

• 2:25:05Adam Skolnick?

  It's great.

• 2:25:07Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 2:25:08Adam Skolnick?

  Bye.

• 2:25:08Rich Roll?

  Bye.

• 2:25:09Adam Skolnick?

  Peace. Bye, Rich.

• 2:25:10Rich Roll?

  Bye.

• 2:25:11Adam Skolnick?

  Bye, gang.