MURDERED: Malvina Krutz

When a young woman is found brutally murdered in her Indianapolis home in 1958, police start pointing fingers at everyone that’s been in and out of the house. But for every twist and turn and decade that has passed, there’s still so many questions around who killed Malvina.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The hustle of the holiday season is here.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Presents to buy, parties to plan. When do we have time to cook?

• 0:06Speaker 00

  You have enough on your plate. Let Royal Farms help. Get a 12-piece, world-famous mixed chicken meal with family-size Western fries for just $20.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Oh, now we're talking.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  Planning a holiday party? Royal Farms catering has you covered with delicious chicken, subs, and wraps for as little as $5 per guest.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Tell me why I didn't do this sooner.

• 0:24Speaker 00

  Be the holiday hero with Royal Farms. Real fresh, real fast.

• 0:30Ashley Flowers?

  Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers.

• 0:33Speaker 03

  And I'm Brett.

• 0:34Ashley Flowers?

  And the story I have for you today is one that I actually found in our own backyard, like actually steps away from where we're recording right now. I had never heard of it, but I do not know how because it's one of the weirdest, twistiest, bizarre cases that I have come across. One with questions that still people will have, but there is no family around to ask the questions anymore. So it's up to us Crime Junkies to ask, who killed Malvina Krutz?

• 1:33Ashley Flowers?

  It's a brisk Wednesday afternoon on January 29, 1958, when Charles Krutz pulls up to his home in the Meridian Kessler neighborhood in Indianapolis, right around 5:00 PM, after like a typical day of work. And when he pulls up, he's a little taken aback because his wife's 1950s Buick isn't around. So he walks into his house and sees his 10-year-old son, Charles, sitting on the couch watching television, and he says, "Hey, buddy." Charles goes, "Bye, buddy, by the way." He says, "Buddy, where's your mom?" And Buddy says, "Well, I think she's out delivering newspapers. I came home from school today for lunch, and she told me that she was gonna take care of my wrap." And I don't know if that's like a normal thing for her to offer to do, or even if getting to go home on your lunch is a normal thing.

• 2:16Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:16Ashley Flowers?

  Like, wasn't when I was a kid, again, 58, though. But Buddy makes it sound like their lunchtime convo was routine. Except, there was something weird about it. He tells his dad that the entire conversation that they had about this paper route, even his mom telling him, you know, eat the sandwich that I made you. It's sitting on the kitchen table. All of that is through the bathroom door. Like, he never actually laid eyes on his mom. And then he adds, "I don't like the looks of the bedroom."

• 2:44Speaker 03

  What bedroom is he talking about?

• 2:45Ashley Flowers?

  He's not entirely sure, but this is like a teeny tiny house. So, he goes to where the two bedrooms are. I've got a map of this, like, on the website, but it's like a bathroom in the middle and a room on each side. And some of the stuff I'm gonna mention is like in Buddy's room. Some of it is in Charles and Malvina's room. But I think there's like toys and stuff in Buddy's room. I know there's a pillow, or pillows, and a blanket on the floor. Again, I think in his room, maybe in the other one. But it's basically not how Buddy would typically leave his room. But like I said, he's looking at the room. He's probably not even in it. And if you're standing in between the two rooms, you're looking at the bathroom. And there's something about the shower curtain that catches Charles' eye. It's closed, and they never leave it closed.

• 3:29Ashley Flowers?

  So he grabs one end, and he begins to pull back the curtain. And right away, he sees her. His wife, Malvina, is laying on her side, submerged in water. It looks like she'd almost been twisted to fit in the tub. Like, her knees are bent, her head is by the faucet. And though her top is on, and she's wearing both of her shoes, her pants are missing, and her underwear is rolled down to her knees. So Charles immediately calls the police. And when investigators arrive, they find 41-year-old Malvina Krutz. She is still warm, so is the bathwater. It's like lukewarm. And she doesn't appear to be in rigor mortis. So they're thinking she couldn't have been dead for that long.

• 4:13Ashley Flowers?

  Now they can see what looked like small cuts on her forehead and her scalp, and they think that there was probably a struggle in the bathroom because the towel holder on the wall is like broken off.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  So, hold up. How long has Buddy been home for? I mean, did he like just come in before his dad got there?

• 4:30Ashley Flowers?

  No, so Buddy came home during lunch.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 4:33Ashley Flowers?

  Again, he ate a sandwich, talked to his mom.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  Presumably like around noonish.

• 4:36Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. Then he left to go back to school sometime shortly after that. And then he comes back home after school. I think he got there around 3:30. And when he got back that second time, I think he just thought his mom wasn't home.

• 4:49Speaker 03

  The car's not there.

• 4:50Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, so he just sat down on the couch and started watching TV. And that's where he spent the next like hour and a half till his dad got home at like five-ish. And he is like a 10-year-old boy. So, you know, he probably tried to find his mom, called out for her, didn't see her.

• 5:04Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:05Ashley Flowers?

  Maybe he popped into his room, noticed that there's like weird stuff in his room, but he's like also not gonna clean it up because he wants to watch TV. I don't know. You have a boy. Like, I don't know if it's this-

• 5:13Speaker 03

  I mean, it's not even a boy. It's just like 10-year-old kid, right? Like, kind of still oblivious to the world. They're kids.

• 5:19Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. So anyways, when the police are there, according to the Indianapolis Star, detectives take a look at Buddy's room, or maybe the parents' room, depending on which source you read and whether weird stuff is, and they say that it's more than just in disarray. Because in addition to the toys like being out of place, I had mentioned that there's also two pillows in the room. So, one is on the floor between the bed and the wall. The other is on the floor near the foot of the bed. And both of these pillows have blood spots and mucus stains on them. According to the Indianapolis News, there's a Chanel bedspread laid out on the floor, which looks like it was used as a pallet to like lay down on, I'm assuming.

• 6:00Ashley Flowers?

  And then there's also a pair of wet pants that they're pretty sure belong to Malvina. They're torn and like tossed on the floor. And I can't confirm, but I don't know if Charles saw her wet pants when he was looking around the house, like Charles, her husband, or even Buddy? Because to me, that's more than just like disarray. That's like weird.

• 6:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:18Ashley Flowers?

  But that's not all they find. So detectives also find a yellow lead pencil that is branded White County R E M C, Monticello, Indiana. And there are a few hairs on this pencil that are attached like near the point of it. And it's not clear exactly where they find this other hair, but apparently there is another hair found on a bed in the Krutz's home. There's so much muddiness between like what's in Buddy's room, what's in the parents' room, if anything. It's it's super, super messy. But I kind of go back to like, I know it's even a 10 year old, but like blood on the pillows, wet pants.

• 6:55Speaker 03

  But if you're like not expecting your mom to be home, she said she was gonna be gone this afternoon, right? She's like doing your paper route. Maybe she's doing it because she's also running errands. Like, is it also weird that like your kid comes home and you like don't go to the bathroom? Like, I don't know. Or maybe no? Like, he's 10, she made a sandwich, everything's taken care of, like she can kind of do-

• 7:13Ashley Flowers?

  That's lunchtime. I'm talking about when he's home from school.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  I don't know. Like, I just think that like him not noticing these things isn't wild. He's like, okay, looks literally in the room around him, his mom's not there.

• 7:23Ashley Flowers?

  His room's a mess, his mom's gonna take care of it. That's also 1958. Okay.

• 7:26Speaker 03

  Or his room's a mess, but his mom's not home to see it, so he doesn't have to do it until she asks him.

• 7:32Ashley Flowers?

  That's fair. That is a tendency.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  And like, I'll just do whatever I want until she forces me to clean it up, whatever.

• 7:38Ashley Flowers?

  Okay.

• 7:39Speaker 03

  It doesn't seem that bonkers, but like, do we know are these hairs on the pencil Malvina's? Like, that feels like we can decide that, right?

• 7:46Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, they're not sure at this point. I think, though, that this pencil becomes important because she had those tiny scratches on her scalp and her forehead. So they're thinking that maybe the pencil is what caused that and then like the hair is-

• 7:57Speaker 03

  Because there's hair stuck to it versus it being like a struggle with the towel rack or whatever.

• 8:01Ashley Flowers?

  Right. So what they end up theorizing is they're like, okay, if she's attacked by someone, maybe this person had this pencil in their front pocket and then it fell out. So they're thinking it's her hair, but like, again, what are you gonna tell in 1958? Now, when they remove Malvina's body from the tub, they realize that there are a couple of shag rugs underneath her that apparently belonged in Buddy's room.

• 8:25Speaker 03

  Like someone maybe used the rugs to like drag her into the bathroom, get her into the tub?

• 8:29Ashley Flowers?

  So that's kind of what they're thinking at first. But here's what's wild. So her autopsy ends up showing that Malvina was alive when she was put in the tub?

• 8:38Speaker 03

  What?

• 8:38Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, they don't list her cause of death, but the coroner does say that she had water in her lungs. And it's his belief that she was hit in the face and then put in the tub while she was unconscious, but still alive.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  So she drowned?

• 8:51Ashley Flowers?

  Theoretically, like, I cannot find a place that specifically says-

• 8:54Speaker 03

  That spells it out?

• 8:55Ashley Flowers?

  Right. But a lot of reporting does say that she apparently drowned. I just like can't attribute it to, anyways. Now, I do know that the autopsy says she had blunt force trauma above her left eye. So to the coroner, it doesn't look like she just slipped and fell. Like, again, you got the pencil, you got the pants in the other room. Like, they're calling it a murder.

• 9:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would say the rugs underneath her. Like, why are they there if this was an accident?

• 9:21Ashley Flowers?

  I have so many questions about the rugs. And, you know, I go back to the pants. Like, one of the big questions was the motivation here. Like, was she sexually assaulted? You have her underwear that's down by her knees. So, and assault is kind of the only motive that makes sense, considering the scene. And considering that what I haven't told you is everything else is accounted for, with the exception of her car, right? So like, her purse is there.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  Any valuables?

• 9:44Ashley Flowers?

  She had like allegedly $260 in cash in her drawer. That's still there, too. But here's the problem with the theory about her being assaulted. We can like really dive into this later, but it's a little hard for me to wrap my head around the order of things. Because, right, he comes home, she's locked in the bathroom. We know she drowns, but her pants are wet in Buddy's room.

• 10:06Speaker 03

  How did they get wet if they aren't in the bathroom with her?

• 10:09Ashley Flowers?

  Or if she was assaulted in Buddy's room, then she's assaulted after she goes in the tub. But she drowns.

• 10:15Speaker 03

  But then why are the pants, like, not with her?

• 10:17Ashley Flowers?

  Right. So, again, sexual assault is the motive that they're looking at. But I think there's things that maybe point away from that because their physical exam actually ends up not conclusively showing sexual assault. And they do some kind of chemical test, I believe. But that's gonna take a while to come back. For now, they just are still gathering things at the scene. So they've looked at the rooms. They've gathered what they can there. They've looked at the bathroom. So next they move to the kitchen dining area, which is right next to the primary bedroom. And behind the kitchen door that goes to the basement and to the backyard, they discover a towel that has some blood on it. Now, I don't know how much. I don't know if it's something that's like a lot of blood, cleaned up blood, a bloody nose, a cut that someone like tried to clean up.

• 11:02Ashley Flowers?

  And again, if you're getting a little mixed up on like where things are, we found this hand drawn layout published in the Indianapolis Star that will help you kind of. I told you the house is small. You can even describe it for people probably in a better way than I did.

• 11:14Speaker 03

  Well, and like, I guess, great. We found this towel with blood on it, but it goes back to exactly what we were just talking about. Right? Like, when is this happening? How is this happening? What all is happening?

• 11:23Ashley Flowers?

  Right, like I, if Buddy comes home at noon, I imagine she's in the bathroom because the guy's like with her. That's the only thing I can think why she wouldn't come out of the bathroom.

• 11:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 11:32Ashley Flowers?

  Is because somebody's there with her and she's trying to like protect her son. Like, you know.

• 11:35Speaker 03

  Let me go in here. I can get him away after lunch.

• 11:38Ashley Flowers?

  Right. But then she comes back out. I don't know if he like sees his, right? I guess maybe the pants were already there and wet. I don't understand how the pants get wet and then get to Buddy's room.

• 11:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, get out of the bathroom.

• 11:49Ashley Flowers?

  That's the part that's driving me nuts. But anyways, they collect this towel. They go through the house. They're checking for fingerprints, especially in the bathroom and the bedroom, on the door. And they are actually able to grab a few promising ones that they hope they can compare to anyone who's been in and out of that house, which is their next step. They got to find out who was coming in and out of that house. And the best person to talk to is the last person who saw her alive. Buddy.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  Your college decision is personal. It's a serious choice that no one takes lightly. Well, Southern New Hampshire University is serious about helping you earn your degree your way. We're talking no set class times and 24/7 access to online coursework, so you can build a schedule that works for you. SNH U also understands that you're coming into college with a goal. Whether you're a career changer, an aspiring leader, or just getting started, they've got over 200 online programs to help you take your next step. When it comes to paying for college, don't stress. SNHU has some of the lowest online tuition in the US. Plus, experienced student finance counselors to guide you through your journey. A college that takes your education as seriously as you do? That's SNHU. Visit SNHU.edu/crimjunkie to learn more.

• 13:04Speaker 03

  That's SNHU.edu/crimjunkie.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  When the holiday shopping season rolls around, business owners are reminded of how rewarding and demanding it can be to run an online store. For anyone developing a business idea or looking to start selling products, now is the ideal time to launch before the holiday rush hits full speed. That is where Shopify comes in. Shopify helps you launch a store and start selling in a few simple steps without needing to be an e-commerce expert. Whether you're organizing product options or setting up your storefront, Sidekick, Shopify's AI assistant, can help with business tasks along the way. Plus, launching before Black Friday means you can take advantage of all the extra online traffic when millions of eager shoppers are already browsing and ready to buy. On behalf of the entire Crime Junkie team, I can promise you our merch launches would be lost without Shopify. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday,

• 13:55Speaker 03

  go to Shopify.com/crimjunkie to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/crimjunkie. Go to Shopify.com/crimjunkie today to hear your first...

• 14:10Ashley Flowers?

  When they bring Buddy in for questioning, he tells detectives the same story he told his dad and officers at the scene. That when he first got home for lunch that day at noon, he didn't actually see his mom. All of their communication was through the bathroom door, and she stayed in there the whole time he was home. Buddy says that his mom was still in there when he finished his lunch, which would have been around 12:30, though he's not exactly sure on the time that he went back to school. And then he says that he got back home at around 3:30 PM. He saw that the room looked strange and messy. His mom isn't home, so again, he just like plops down and watches TV till his dad gets home. And Buddy's version of events is actually backed up by a delivery man who showed up at the house a little after noon,

• 14:54Ashley Flowers?

  like he did every week on Wednesdays to deliver milk. But he says this time, instead of Malvina answering the door, Buddy answered it. And when detectives go and talk to this delivery man, he says he knocks on the door like 12:10. Buddy answers. And since it wasn't Malvina, he's like, okay, what type of milk does your mom want? And Buddy's like, okay, let me go check. But Buddy doesn't walk out of sight. Again, if you go look at the map of this house, it's like just a little rectangle. And he like walks back and it looks like Buddy is talking to his mom through the door. And then he comes back, gives the guy his mom's order. Delivery guy leaves. And there's like, you know, nothing important, except for the fact that when this delivery guy was leaving, or when Buddy's talking to his mom,

• 15:36Ashley Flowers?

  he makes note that Malvina's car is in the garage, which we know was missing by the time Charles comes home.

• 15:43Speaker 03

  Right, so could the delivery driver hear Malvina like through the door? Was it that close?

• 15:48Ashley Flowers?

  I don't think he actually heard her. I think he just hears Buddy like, hey, mom, what do you want?

• 15:54Speaker 03

  Buddy's side of the conversation.

• 15:55Ashley Flowers?

  Right.

• 15:55Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 15:56Ashley Flowers?

  But I don't think we have to question was she, you know, even alive then? Because there is someone else who did hear Malvina's voice after 12:30, when Buddy would have gone back to school. So detectives find two of Malvina's friends, Mildred and Florence, who say that they came by the house after the milkman. And they have this super weird encounter with someone? Like, it's super strange. So here's the scoop. Apparently, and just for context, so the Krutz's house had caught fire a month before in like mid-December. So there'd been a lot of repairs going on. And Malvina had been bugging her friends to come by and see the updates. Well, today is the day that they want to do that.

• 16:39Ashley Flowers?

  Except they call ahead like polite women of society would do in 1958. And it's like 12:45 when one of them rings her. But instead of Malvina answering, it's this man on the other end of the line who she doesn't recognize. And immediately, when I first read that, I was like, oh, no. Like, I would be, all the red flags would be up. But she just thought it was a repairman. Because I guess that it had happened before, because there were so many people coming in and out for the-

• 17:02Speaker 03

  With all the updates.

• 17:03Ashley Flowers?

  Right.

• 17:04Speaker 03

  Which is going to make narrowing down those fingerprints even more difficult.

• 17:07Ashley Flowers?

  Oh, yeah. So Mildred says when this guy picked up, she asked to speak to Malvina. But he just kind of like stuttered a little bit. And she says she could hear Malvina's voice in the background, asking the man to tell Mildred something. But there is conflicting reporting on what that something was. So one news source reports that she heard something like, tell her not to pick me up today. And then I saw in another place that Malvina says, tell Mrs. Warning that I have to take Buddy to school and I will pick her up at 1:30.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  Which are very different statements.

• 17:41Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 17:41Speaker 03

  And either way, she didn't want Mildred anywhere around, but like also not helpful.

• 17:46Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, but I feel like we're missing the even bigger piece because like there wasn't talk of picking her up. Everything I read was about her coming just to see the renovation.

• 17:54Speaker 03

  There were plans to like all of them go somewhere else.

• 17:57Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, that part's weird to me. And if I'm not missing anything, if we're not missing context, part of me wonders if she was trying to say something.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  Like code.

• 18:03Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, that was just like, what is she talking about? That's not what was supposed to happen, but like, should I come there? I don't know. Anyway, I don't think either Florence or Mildred were suspicious or anything. But they are pushy because they're like, okay, well, she invited us. I know you're home, so we're just still gonna come over. I don't know if they said that out loud or just like thought that, but I know that they get in the car and they make their way over to Malvina's house. And they get there an hour later. So we're talking like 1:40, 1:45 ish. And here's what's wild. As they come up on the house, they see Malvina's car like backing out of the driveway. I mean, they literally have to stop to let the car back out. But when they take a closer look, it isn't Malvina driving. It is a man.

• 18:48Ashley Flowers?

  And after watching the car leave, the two women, like they pull in, they go to the back door, which was left slightly open. And they just like wait inside for Malvina.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Okay. They just watched her car, like they let her car out of the driveway with someone else driving it. They go around to the back where the door is.

• 19:07Ashley Flowers?

  Open.

• 19:08Speaker 03

  Already open and like waltz inside, plop down and are like, okay, where is she?

• 19:14Ashley Flowers?

  I'm gonna need you to be a better crime junkie friend to me if this ever happens.

• 19:17Speaker 03

  Like they weren't looking for her?

• 19:19Ashley Flowers?

  No, so I don't know if they thought that maybe she was in the car. They don't say anything about seeing her.

• 19:24Speaker 03

  But then they know she's not at the house.

• 19:26Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know. Like, I know that, but I'm saying like, I don't know if they thought she was gonna like pop right back. Like, if she was in the car, you would think she would have seen her, or maybe someone was borrowing her car. Again, to me, it makes no sense. I'm trying to make sense of something that does not make sense.

• 19:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:42Ashley Flowers?

  But here they are, sitting in the house, and they wait for like 20 minutes.

• 19:46Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 19:47Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, sitting in like the kitchen for 20 minutes, and after 20 minutes, they finally get tired of waiting. They write her this note, they put a coat on a chair, this coat that they wanted to give to Buddy, and then they left.

• 20:00Speaker 03

  So, okay, is a theory that she was in the car, like, leaving when they pulled up? Or that she's already dead in the bathtub?

• 20:08Ashley Flowers?

  I don't think anyone knows, even to this day, but I think the assumption, based on the timeline, is that they're thinking she was likely dead in the bathtub, feet away from them.

• 20:19Speaker 03

  But she's not cold at five, like, hours later.

• 20:24Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know how hot the water was. I mean, like, if you, if you think about the bathtub water, if they put hot water in there, it would keep her warm, and the water is lukewarm by the time they find.

• 20:34Speaker 03

  Like a reverse ice cube.

• 20:35Ashley Flowers?

  So it'd be like three hours, right? Like, it is a decent amount of time, but we're not talking noon when Buddy's home. I mean, we're talking 1:45 when they get there. I don't know.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  They wait for 20 minutes?

• 20:45Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know. I don't know. But we do have this, like, weird time now, right? Where you've got Buddy leaving, we've got this call that comes in from her friends, where we know she's alive and talking in the background, and then we've got like an hour before they actually come, and they're just seeing the man leave. So what happened in that hour specifically? Detectives want to know that. And they actually get a good lead the next day, which is January 30th, after someone calls in that her car has been found. Her Buick has been abandoned just a little over a mile from her house. According to an Indianapolis Star article, her keys are nowhere to be found, but inside the car, they do find a rag that is smeared with yellow paint.

• 21:28Ashley Flowers?

  They think it was used to wipe the windshield. I don't know why they come to that conclusion, or if there's like marks or yellow paint or whatever. I don't even know if that's relevant, but it's just something that I read, and I, now you know.

• 21:39Speaker 03

  Got it.

• 21:39Ashley Flowers?

  Now, there are some early reports that claim her car had been parked in this area the day before her murder, but that's quickly disproven based on their conversations with the milk delivery person and Malvina's friends.

• 21:51Speaker 03

  I know you said the rag is like, question mark, question mark windshield wiper thing, but the yellow paint, is there yellow paint in the house?

• 21:57Ashley Flowers?

  Great question. Initially, I couldn't find anything about yellow paint, but I was going through the source material trying to track down the importance of the rag. I found a single article that mentioned that the cruts's kitchen walls were painted gray, but that the trim was yellow. So maybe, I don't know if it's the same yellow.

• 22:15Speaker 03

  I was saying, maybe like one tiny part of their house is yellow. Maybe.

• 22:19Ashley Flowers?

  Maybe not. I don't know.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  Also, maybe she could have put it there as her rag. Like, it could be nothing, right?

• 22:25Ashley Flowers?

  Possibly, yeah. I mean, it could be hers.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  It could just be like something she keeps in her car.

• 22:28Ashley Flowers?

  Or it could belong to somebody who put her car there. I don't know.

• 22:31Speaker 03

  And did they test any of the stuff around the house? Like, the blood on the pillows, the mucus stains, the hairs on the pencil?

• 22:38Ashley Flowers?

  I couldn't find anything about the blood or mucus ever being tested. The hair was, using like a spectrograph test. And the only thing I found was that the hairs are human. They likely came from a woman, but they can't tell if they belong to Malvina. And then, to me, more important than the hairs is like the pencil itself.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:58Ashley Flowers?

  But they're never able to determine where, not where it didn't come from, but like who it came from. I mean, I assume it's the killer's, because Charles says it's not his. Mildred claims that the pencil she used to write that note to Malvina was her own. She puts it back in her purse. I don't know if they asked Buddy or not, but his uncle, who would have been like Charles's brother, says that Buddy could have picked one up after a trip to Winimac, which is like two hours north of Indy. So maybe he did. I mean, like, every person that they talked to, when they actually narrow in on this pencil, it kind of becomes a needle in a haystack, because detectives actually talked to the manager of the Monticello R E M C, that's what's written on the pencil. And in reporting by United Press, the manager says that there were like over a thousand

• 23:42Ashley Flowers?

  of these pencils handed out, like, last year alone. So this isn't going to be their ace in the hole by any means.

• 23:47Speaker 03

  And what is Monticello R E M C?

• 23:49Ashley Flowers?

  It's just an electric company up in Monticello, Indiana. This is like an hour and a half north of Indy. So, again, I don't, you know, we're from here, but I don't, I don't know where Buddy was, but it's like up in that direction. So the pencil is a dead end. The hair is a dead end. And those chemical tests done on Malvina end up being a dead end, too. Those come back and there is apparently no indication that Malvina was sexually assaulted. Though, what I'll say is that doesn't mean her attacker didn't try. And the thing I don't know, I don't know specifically what tests were done and how would hot water affect that? Yeah. I don't know. But with no leads coming from the physical evidence, detectives are trying to hone in on the why here.

• 24:33Ashley Flowers?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What is taking up your mental real estate these days? I catch myself pre-playing and replaying conversations in my head. Like, I can't tell you the amount of brain time I have spent trying to write a script for a conversation that never goes the way I think it will. Like endless hours. It has taken a total brain rewire to understand what I can and can't control and what should or shouldn't take up my brain space. There is a lot that we need to be present for, specifically around the holidays. And getting help differentiating between the things that deserve our time and don't is a game changer. And talking with a professional can make all the difference. BetterHelp matches you with experienced therapists, each with at least three years and 1,000 hours of practical experience.

• 25:18Ashley Flowers?

  A brief questionnaire helps pair you with the right fit. And if it ever doesn't feel right, changing therapists is simple and hassle-free. Prioritizing your own peace and mental wellbeing is one of the best gifts you can give yourself right now. BetterHelp is in-network with over 125 health plans, with copays as low as $15 for eligible members. If you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com/crimejunkie. That's better H E L P dot com slash crime junkie.

• 25:54Ashley Flowers?

  Do me a favor. Put all five fingers up. Now, put one down if you have workout saved on Instagram that you haven't gone back to. Put one down if you were gonna go to a workout class this week, but there's just none that the times worked out for. Put one down if you don't like working out at home because you don't know what to do and you need someone to push you. Put two fingers down if you want to stop this game. Babe, we are the same. I don't have a lot of time and honestly, I'm not even someone who likes working out. But Ladder actually changed that. I literally had to waddle into the studio to record this because my butt is so sore. Ladder is quick. I'm not wasting time wandering around or doing reps of something that won't matter. I'm in, I'm out. I have a coach along the way who can help me make 30 minutes with weights feel better than two hours of whatever I was doing before. And it's $1 a day.

• 26:39Ashley Flowers?

  So if price was ever stopping you before, you're officially out of excuses. Remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout. No thinking, everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head to ladder.fit/crimejunkie and take a quick quiz to find your perfect ladder plan. Use my link and get a free seven-day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you join.

• 27:08Ashley Flowers?

  They look at several avenues. They look into anyone who in and of themselves are suspicious, like sex offenders in the area. Because despite no forensic evidence of it, detectives can't shake the feeling that her murder was motivated by sex in some way. But even when they go down this route, there are no suspects that turn up. So they also talk to neighbors. According to the Indianapolis Star, there are a few nearby that have a good view of Malvina's house, but the four closest neighbors that they interviewed tell detectives that they didn't hear or see a thing that day. Except for one neighbor. They said that they remember seeing two women, Mildred and Florence. They saw them stop in, but then that's it. So like, they didn't actually see anything helpful.

• 27:52Ashley Flowers?

  And then there were two dogs that live nearby that apparently would bark at people in Malvina's yard, but on Wednesday, those dogs were silent.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  But we know that the house was getting a lot of work done. There were people in and out all the time. They could be like getting used to that.

• 28:08Ashley Flowers?

  Maybe, but like, this has only been going on, when you think about it, since the middle of December was the fire. So like, a month, they've been having renovations. I will tell you this, we have this same woman who walks her two dogs up and down our street every day. I have lived in this house for four years. Charlie loses his GD mind every time they walk by. So maybe these dogs are di- I don't know, like-

• 28:33Speaker 03

  Well, and yeah, I'm thinking of Bertie, and like, we have like, two of Eli's friends who come over like, at least once a week and have-

• 28:39Ashley Flowers?

  Every time.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  Like, since we've had Bertie. And like, she's still like, wait, who are you?

• 28:44Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, why are you in my home? So, to me, that's a little bit telling. I don't know if, maybe the dogs just weren't out. I don't-

• 28:52Speaker 03

  Right.

• 28:52Ashley Flowers?

  What I don't know is like, again, it's all context. Were these dogs outside of, so they're always out. Were people just not around to hear them bark?

• 28:57Speaker 03

  Was there something else going on that they were paying atten- like, was there a bunny, literally?

• 29:01Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know. It's driving me nuts. But if there was someone that they were getting accustomed to, you would think it would maybe be one of the workers, like you were saying. But they're questioning every one of those, every guy who's been in and out of the house in, especially the week of Malvina's murder. I don't know if they're fingerprinted or not, but detectives are questioning them, even holding them sometimes, giving them lie detector tests if they agree, because those are pretty much gold back in the day. And they say that they clear a lot of people just based on their polygraph results. But for every past poly and little to no evidence to go off of, each man is eventually released.

• 29:39Speaker 03

  They have fingerprints, right? Like, they don't need to go off witness statements and polygraphs?

• 29:44Ashley Flowers?

  That's what I was saying, though. I don't know if they're testing the prints first and then the poly, or if they're doing the poly and if you pass that, they don't even think about testing. I don't know, like, what order this is going in. I know that they're testing some people. You also can't just like, put it into a system, right? Like, matches aren't just popping up. And if they're gonna do manual- Comparisons, even if you do the poly and you collect them, this is what I think. If I had to like make a complete guess, which is all this is, is that they get someone to sit down, they do a poly, they take their prints and then they would have to go and compare them. But if someone passed their poly, it's like, well, just put that to the back of the line.

• 30:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:17Ashley Flowers?

  And those manual comparisons are going to take a lot of time, I would imagine. But they do eventually put a face to a thumbprint, though. Reporting by International News Service says that it's the print on the bedroom door that they matched to someone, but that person ends up just getting cleared.

• 30:35Speaker 03

  What?

• 30:36Ashley Flowers?

  Detectives at the time don't specify who it was, but they do confirm that some of the prints don't belong to Malvina Police or her family. But that's like all they say, like, no hits, we have this one that we matched to someone.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  But don't worry about that.

• 30:49Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, don't worry about that guy. Again, I'm, what I imagine is that he-

• 30:53Speaker 03

  He also like passed a poly, has an alibi, something.

• 30:57Ashley Flowers?

  You'll see, we'll get there.

• 30:59Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 31:00Ashley Flowers?

  Now, there is an alleged hitchhiker that ends up on police's radar. He's around 30 years old, he had convictions back in Alabama.

• 31:09Speaker 03

  Do we know for what?

• 31:10Ashley Flowers?

  Um, I'm not sure, but here's the thing. So this is the 1950s in Indy, this was a black man. So there was a lot of profiling happening. And Malvina's friends who saw her car initially said, when they were pulling out, that it was a black man driving, but later they admitted that they couldn't actually tell what the person's race was, but it feels like maybe they're just like zeroing in on that detail.

• 31:35Speaker 03

  And everyone's first instinct right now is to just point fingers up near this black person.

• 31:40Ashley Flowers?

  Pretty much.

• 31:40Speaker 03

  Got it.

• 31:41Ashley Flowers?

  And I mean, to add some extra context to like the time period, this is all literally happening three years after Emmett Till.

• 31:48Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 31:48Ashley Flowers?

  So while a lot of finger pointing is happening, I think there is a little bit of like a-

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Trepidation.

• 31:55Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, to like, nobody wants to put themselves near like a false accusation. So they're also, again, using the polies, sending people on their way.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  Okay, so obviously we've talked a lot about like looking outside, people who could come in, but has anyone looked at Charles or maybe even Buddy for that matter, like at all? Like just to make sure everybody's versions are lining up?

• 32:15Ashley Flowers?

  So yes to Charles.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 32:17Ashley Flowers?

  No to Buddy. Um, I think they're probably like not even humoring that idea.

• 32:20Speaker 03

  He's a little kid.

• 32:20Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, in their mind, like a 10-year-old kid isn't going to do that to their mom. We might think differently about things today, but in 58, Buddy's off the hook. Dad? Not so much. Dad actually starts looking a little fishy to investigators. I don't know if this happens right away because I know all that other stuff was happening. But I think it's when they like drill in on where he was, when he was, because they start getting suspicious of Charles when they realize that there was a few hours in the middle of the day, like the day his wife is murdered, that are unaccounted for at work. So it's around midday, same timeframe, that we know she's attacked and murdered. And they bring Charles in to ask him where he was. Like, what were you doing if you're not at work?

• 33:05Ashley Flowers?

  And he's like, oh, I was out taking care of some things.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  Oh, cool, cool, cool. Perfect. Okay, you're good. Awesome. Taking care of things?

• 33:12Ashley Flowers?

  Taking care of things. So in an article from the Indianapolis Star, Charles claims that he left work at around noon to go grab some lunch at Mike's Bar. Then he got his shoe shine, but he couldn't remember exactly where he got the shoe shine. And then he went to visit a friend a little bit before 2:00 PM.

• 33:28Speaker 03

  What friend?

• 33:29Ashley Flowers?

  I was gonna tell you. So 28-year-old Charles Fleck. So Charles lives over on the east side in this rooming house, which is basically like a shared home where people rent their own rooms, but they like share, uh, it's a roommate.

• 33:42Speaker 03

  Shared spaces, yeah. Kitchens.

• 33:44Ashley Flowers?

  I love how you just tried to explain roommates to you.

• 33:46Speaker 03

  Who invented roommates?

• 33:47Ashley Flowers?

  Love it. Anyways, I found a source that claims that Charles Fleck's landlady can corroborate this. She says that he left his friend's house just before 3:00. He apparently got back to work at 3:30 PM. And then he's at work till like sometime after 4:00 when he leaves to go home.

• 34:04Speaker 03

  Wait, Charles just takes a three-hour lunch break?

• 34:08Ashley Flowers?

  Don't you love the 50s?

• 34:09Speaker 03

  Comes back for an hour.

• 34:11Ashley Flowers?

  Not even, like a half hour?

• 34:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, barely. And then is like, I think I've done enough here. I'm gonna head home.

• 34:18Ashley Flowers?

  Exhausted. Yeah, so he is like, um, he's a manager for, uh, I think it was called the Southern Transportation Company. So I don't know if he's like making his own schedule. I don't know if when you're a manager, like, it doesn't matter what-

• 34:28Speaker 03

  The rules don't apply?

• 34:29Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, like, as long as the people you're managing are working, you can just like hang out for three and a half hours. But it doesn't seem like a very productive workday to me. Now, the thing that detectives ask next is like, "Okay, well, what are you doing with your buddy, Charles Fleck?"

• 34:43Speaker 03

  In the middle of the day.

• 34:44Ashley Flowers?

  In the middle of the day.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  Just hanging out.

• 34:46Ashley Flowers?

  At his shared room, house roommate thing. But he doesn't elaborate. He just says that they're hanging out for an hour. But he gets home at around 5:00, went in the back door, took off his watch and jewelry, before then looking for his wife. But, the officer who took Charles's statement the evening that Malvina was discovered, because we're getting this statement later, says that that's not entirely truthful. That officer says that Charles told him that he walked into the house through the front door, not the back door. And, to that officer, he said it looked like Charles had changed into fresh clothes. Like, he didn't look like his clothes were like, "lived in all day."

• 35:27Speaker 03

  Like, oh, okay.

• 35:28Ashley Flowers?

  Like, I don't know if it was like the starchy 1958, or sweat stain, I mean, it's not sweat stains, like, it's January, but they didn't look "lived in."

• 35:34Speaker 03

  Right, got it.

• 35:35Ashley Flowers?

  And then here is where, if you're not already, like, raising your eyebrows, you will. They learn that Malvina had actually filed for divorce from Charles on January 13th.

• 35:49Speaker 03

  What?

• 35:50Ashley Flowers?

  And her reasoning for filing for divorce was that Charles was, quote, "Guilty of marital misconduct and gross and wanton negligence of conjugal duties for more than 10 years." End quote, but AKA the whole time like buddies spent our life.

• 36:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:05Ashley Flowers?

  And, the one thing I'll say, the first time I heard "conjugal duties", I'm like, "Okay." Yeah.

• 36:10Speaker 03

  We're crime junkies.

• 36:11Ashley Flowers?

  Crime junkie prison lingo. But apparently, that actually has like a broader meaning. I got like, deep in a Reddit thread, where people are like, "It does not just mean conjugal in the way that we know conjugal. You're not getting the support you need, etc." Like, I'm just...

• 36:25Speaker 03

  There's like a lack of connection and intimacy.

• 36:27Ashley Flowers?

  Yes.

• 36:28Speaker 03

  Across the relationship, in many facets, maybe?

• 36:30Ashley Flowers?

  Yes.

• 36:31Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 36:31Ashley Flowers?

  So, like, I feel like there's an elephant in the room named Charles Fleck.

• 36:35Speaker 03

  I would say, I mean...

• 36:37Ashley Flowers?

  But there's nothing, but there's like, this is just worth mentioning, because if you go online and look it up, it's not that I'm ignoring it. There's just nothing to prove that there's...

• 36:45Speaker 03

  Like, really truly support the idea that anything...

• 36:48Ashley Flowers?

  He might have just been hanging out with his buddy in the middle of the workday, shining shoes. I don't know. But him and his wife, things were not good. That's what you should know.

• 36:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, big takeaway.

• 36:57Ashley Flowers?

  And it doesn't stop there. So in a filing published in an article by the Indianapolis News, it also says that she was worried about Buddy's safety if Charles continued living in their house. So she had a restraining order hearing that was scheduled for January 17th. Apparently neither Charles or her showed up for that hearing. I guess they say it was because they were in the midst of reconciling, but it wasn't the first time that this has happened. Sometime in the early 50s, Malvina had filed for divorce. Like, this is the second time, but they also reconciled, and she never followed through with it. So early 50s, this happens. It seems like Buddy's born, early 50s, this happens. Fast forward, this is happening again. But this time, when they missed it,

• 37:41Ashley Flowers?

  it actually got rescheduled, this hearing that they were supposed to go to, even if they were reconciling.

• 37:47Speaker 03

  Versus just being dropped.

• 37:48Ashley Flowers?

  Right.

• 37:48Speaker 03

  They would have to like go in and be like, "Okay, never mind, just kidding. Let's not reschedule it again."

• 37:53Ashley Flowers?

  Yes.

• 37:53Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 37:54Ashley Flowers?

  But in this one source that I found, Malvina and Charles received an order to appear in court, wait for it, on January 30th. This is the day after she's murdered.

• 38:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:05Ashley Flowers?

  She's murdered on the 29th. For me, it's a little too suspicious to just glaze past.

• 38:11Speaker 03

  The timing feels so specific and intentional.

• 38:15Ashley Flowers?

  And not even just of this. Like, things are happening around this time. Like, when you think about it, their house caught fire in December. I don't know how bad that was. Obviously, they were still living in the home, but they needed renovations. Then we have this restraining order, talks of divorce, this final court date that she doesn't make because she's killed in her home.

• 38:31Speaker 03

  There's like a lot of turmoil.

• 38:33Ashley Flowers?

  There's a "there" there.

• 38:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:34Ashley Flowers?

  At the very least, Charles cannot be completely ruled out. So what they do is they turn to their trusty polygraphs. They have Charles Krutz and Charles Fleck take a polygraph, which they both passed. But in the midst of Charles Krutz's test, he tells detectives something interesting.

• 38:57Ashley Flowers?

  Do me a favor. Put all five fingers up. Now, put one down if you have workout saved on Instagram that you haven't gone back to. Put one down if you were gonna go to a workout class this week, but there's just none that the times worked out for. Put one down if you don't like working out at home because you don't know what to do and you need someone to push you. Put two fingers down if you want to stop this game. Babe, we are the same. I don't have a lot of time and honestly, I'm not even someone who likes working out. But Ladder actually changed that. I literally had to waddle into the studio to record this because my butt is so sore. Ladder is quick. I'm not wasting time wandering around or doing reps of something that won't matter. I'm in, I'm out. I have a coach along the way who can help me make 30 minutes with weights feel better than two hours of whatever I was doing before. And it's $1 a day.

• 39:42Ashley Flowers?

  So if price was ever stopping you before, you're officially out of excuses. Remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout. No thinking, everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head to ladder.fit/crimejunkie and take a quick quiz to find your perfect ladder plan. Use my link and get a free seven-day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you join.

• 40:10Speaker 03

  If you haven't checked out live shopping yet, you are seriously missing out. Whatnot is the top destination for live shopping and it is completely transforming how we shop online. Unlike traditional online stores where you're just scrolling through static photos, Whatnot brings real-time excitement. You get to hang out with engaging sellers who love what they love, interact in lively chats, and jump on incredible deals you can't find anywhere else. And you guys, the sheer amount and range of items is mind-boggling. Everything from fashion, beauty, and designer handbags to vintage clothing and rare collectibles. Whatnot has become my go-to to shop the items I want in an honestly really exciting way. I was able to snag a really cute vintage handbag at a kind of unbelievable price and getting to see it in real time was really helpful and so much fun.

• 40:55Speaker 03

  Download Whatnot today and get $20 off your first live purchase. Search Whatnot, that's W-H-A-T-N-O-T, in the App Store. Sign up and take a shopping trip. Terms apply.

• 41:08Ashley Flowers?

  Charles says that since Malvina's death, he has gotten a handful of strange calls at night. Apparently, this woman with a slight southern accent has called Charles three different nights, but every call had come at around 9:00 PM. And every time, she said, "Is this Mr. Krutz?" And he says, "Yes," the woman would just hang up. And while it seems like way too little to actually go off of or do anything with, detectives feel like these calls are their answer to things. Because Charles passed his polygraph, he must be all good, right? He says someone's calling. Maybe someone's involved. Now, there is an interesting tidbit about this,

• 41:53Ashley Flowers?

  but also, it's not a secret tidbit. I'm pretty sure Charles would have known this already. But Mildred, when she had originally called about coming over, she said that the man she spoke with also had a southern accent. So this leads detectives to be like, "Oh, well, this must be connected."

• 42:11Speaker 03

  Two people with a similar accent, okay.

• 42:14Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and like, listen, it's 58. I have a hard time getting hold of phone records for like cases that happened in the 80s and 90s. I don't know if they checked that or would have, but I would like to see some backup before I'm just like, "Well, Charles must have gotten these calls." And I know they try, because The Daily Reporter says that they start a "systematic probe" of the phone calls. And then, not that much time later, the Indianapolis police literally come out and say that they think Charles's mystery woman is in danger? Because she might know the identity of the man who answered the phone? But that's only mentioned one time. So I don't know if they like proved the calls happened. I don't know why they would think she would know, other than that she has a southern accent.

• 42:57Ashley Flowers?

  Like, we're either missing a lot, or they're like reaching. Anyway, zero comes after this. And they don't seem to go back to Charles. By early February detectives have two dueling theories. And one is much more likely than the other. So there's the murder angle. And then there's a tragic accident angle.

• 43:19Speaker 03

  Hold up. How did we get to accident?

• 43:21Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know, but police are saying there is a possibility that Malvina actually fell.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  No, the coroner already ruled that out.

• 43:30Ashley Flowers?

  He did, but in another article by the Daily Reporter, one of Malvina's friends apparently went to detectives and told them that she had dislocated a disc in her back or neck or something that could put her out of commission at times. And she says at one time, like in front of this woman, Malvina had it flare up and she actually fell straight back onto the floor. So I don't know, I think it's something that they're throwing out because like, I don't know.

• 43:55Speaker 03

  They don't have anything on the murder angle, so.

• 43:57Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And then if you go to the murder angle, I think there are other theory there is that Malvina was attacked in her son's bedroom, became unconscious at some point, then was dragged to the bathroom, either using those rugs that were found underneath her, or they were just accidentally grabbed when someone like scooped her up and picked her up, like put her in the tub.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  Which to me seems way more likely because if her back was acting up and she fell into the ba- like, how do the rugs get there? It doesn't get explained in an accident.

• 44:27Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, like the rugs from his room specifically.

• 44:31Speaker 03

  Right, not like the bathroom rugs.

• 44:33Ashley Flowers?

  There's a movie, there's like a rom com, I can't think of it, where someone like hurts their back and they're like naked and they have to like cover themselves with the rug. Do you know the one I'm talking about? Oh, someone listening will know what I'm talking about, but it's like what I was picturing. But that doesn't make sense if we're talking about.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  Rugs from a bedroom.

• 44:48Ashley Flowers?

  Unless something happened in Buddy's room and then she's embarrassed and she like maneuvers herself to the bathroom so she can hide while her son comes home. I would think she would ask her son for help, like it doesn't make s- nothing about this.

• 44:58Speaker 03

  Or explain that that's why she's in the bathroom and not coming out.

• 45:01Ashley Flowers?

  But if someone like pulled her with the rug, she goes into the bathroom unconscious. Like, why is she talking to Buddy through the door?

• 45:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 45:08Ashley Flowers?

  I don't understand this one. But the rugs is just a theory. It's all a theory. And I think they really start at least getting away from the accident theory by the end of February. Because that's when three witnesses come forward who say that they saw a man with Malvina eight days before her murder. They say they know this guy. He was a 37-year-old named Robert Smith, who was a paper hanger. Basically, someone who did wallpaper back in the day.

• 45:36Speaker 03

  Got it.

• 45:36Ashley Flowers?

  And he was someone who had been working on the renovations in their home.

• 45:40Speaker 03

  But didn't they clear everybody who was working at the house?

• 45:43Ashley Flowers?

  Yes. Again, they say that, but like...

• 45:46Speaker 03

  But we don't know how or when or who those people are. They just kind of blanket say it.

• 45:50Ashley Flowers?

  And it does change. The unclear thing is I don't know exactly when that flips. Because they say it multiple times that they cleared people. But at some point, that does change. Because Robert turns out to be one of two guys that investigators have on their radar again. The second being someone named Leroy Pennick. He's a 40-year-old painter also who worked at the house. Now, to go to Robert. He was initially questioned on January 29th, the day that they found her. But he was one of the ones that they released pretty quickly. Now, he's back on the radar. He's being held without bond. Because now we have this witness saying that they saw Robert and Malvina in her car with Robert driving.

• 46:31Ashley Flowers?

  And then they find two other people that say they saw them at a business together, likely picking out wallpaper.

• 46:36Speaker 03

  But eight days before? I mean, that means nothing.

• 46:39Ashley Flowers?

  I agree. Like, again, I don't know if this is a product of the times. I don't know if this is a product of just being so desperate. I mean, literally, the only thing is like, someone's like, "I saw them together eight days before."

• 46:49Speaker 03

  A week ago, yeah.

• 46:50Ashley Flowers?

  You should look at him for her murder. Now, in more reporting for the Indianapolis Star, Robert denies being in Malvina's car ever. And he says he wasn't even working at her house on the day of her murder because he was working at a different location. But detectives say that they have, quote, "absolute evidence" that proves otherwise.

• 47:09Speaker 03

  What's this absolute evidence?

• 47:11Ashley Flowers?

  They would be too easy if they told us.

• 47:12Speaker 03

  That's why it's called absolute evidence.

• 47:13Ashley Flowers?

  Absolute evidence. But they never disclose it. And we're just left to have to trust them.

• 47:18Speaker 03

  Got it.

• 47:19Ashley Flowers?

  Now, they also say his alibi is full of holes. They don't share what kind of holes. Don't even ask.

• 47:24Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 47:25Ashley Flowers?

  And they do have him take a polygraph if he hadn't already before. That part's unclear to me, but he passes with the exception of one question. It's a question about him being in Malvina's car with her a few days before her murder. He says he wasn't, and I guess his answer is inconclusive. But he passes the overall test. And like, listen, if that's what he's passing, maybe he, maybe he did go pick out wallpaper eight days before. Like, I'd be terrified in that position to like,

• 47:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:50Ashley Flowers?

  Say I was in a white woman's car who's now murdered. Get out of here.

• 47:52Speaker 03

  And like, also inconclusive is not wrong. Inconclusive is just, I'm nervous as shit.

• 47:57Ashley Flowers?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:58Speaker 03

  And he worked at the house, like,

• 48:00Ashley Flowers?

  Right. And at least they dropped the charges based on this. So he ultimately passes. The preliminary charges are dropped. He's released from custody, which is the upside of polygraphs in 50, at least like it goes Bible both ways. So up next is Leroy Pennick. So he is initially picked up on January 31st and questioned and then released. But I think detectives had a better reason for picking him up at the time. They had gotten a call from a tavern owner who said that this man walked into his business on the day of Malvina's murder and said he just, quote, slapped a girl around and left fingerprints all over the place. Leroy allegedly asked the owner if he would vouch for him if the topic ever came up with

• 48:43Ashley Flowers?

  police, and he asked him to say that he had been painting the tavern that day.

• 48:47Speaker 03

  Are they like friends or something?

• 48:49Ashley Flowers?

  No, because immediately the owner's like, absolutely no. Like, no, no, no, no. And he calls the police to tell them the whole story. So detectives brought him in like that very day. This is, again, early on. He's looked at whatever. But something must have changed because detectives leave Leroy a note at his house telling him that they want to talk to him again. Maybe they're just circling back. I don't know. But he comes in totally voluntarily, gives two polygraphs, and then poof, on February 22nd, they bring a preliminary murder charge against him because those two polygraphs showed deception. Now, he claimed that he had been drinking the night before, like the night before taking those tests. So that was what attributed to the failed polygraphs, but they don't care. Polygraphs are Bible.

• 49:31Ashley Flowers?

  So after charging him, they get him on the books for a third polygraph, which, surprise, surprise, he fails as well. And in each of the polygraphs, he has what detectives call a strong emotional reaction to any question about Malvina and her house and the crime scene.

• 49:48Ashley Flowers?

  Now Leroy might have had a reaction to the questions, but he wasn't too upset about failing the polygraph because he tells detectives that he has been arrested 18 times and he knows lie detector tests don't hold up in court.

• 50:01Speaker 03

  Okay, ahead of his time.

• 50:03Ashley Flowers?

  And cocky about it. So while he's waiting for his preliminary hearing, he undergoes a mental evaluation because he had gotten a head injury when he was serving in World War II. He suffered from dizzy spells. But the results come back, he's deemed fit for trial. And while he's been in custody, detectives also take him to his home so they can search for any additional evidence that could tie him to the scene. I mean, specifically, they're looking for any yellow paint similar to what had been found on that rag and her car. You got it. Now, they don't find a can of yellow paint that could match, but they do find some clothing that has yellow paint on it. And they send that off for analysis. Pretty quickly, results come back and it's inconclusive. But there was also another result that came back

• 50:47Ashley Flowers?

  that detectives have been waiting 21 days for. That random hair, the one that they found on one of the beds in the Krutz's home, and the results claim that they can apparently tell that the hair came from a black person.

• 51:02Speaker 03

  That seems convincing, convenient.

• 51:07Ashley Flowers?

  I know. And I'm like shocked it took 21 days. Like, and it happens right as they have this person in custody. Convenient, I think, is the right word. But it doesn't really matter because they can't conclusively connect that hair to Leroy. They can't connect anything to Leroy. And according to the Indianapolis Recorder, in the state of Indiana, a person can't be kept for longer than seven days on a pre-charge. So they have to end up letting him go since there isn't enough evidence to do a definitive charge. I didn't know there was a difference between a pre-charge and like, but apparently there is.

• 51:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay, cool.

• 51:39Ashley Flowers?

  Again, I don't know if that's still around or not, but I learned something new today. So on February 28th, Leroy is free to go. And so with their second promising suspect released, detectives are back at square one. Now, a few months go by, and honestly, I don't know what they're doing behind the scenes. But a break in the case comes on June 12th. That's when Indianapolis Police pick up a 26-year-old man named James David Rogers. And they pick him up on warrants for grand larceny and issuing fraudulent checks. And while he's in custody, he tells officers something unexpected.

• 52:15Ashley Flowers?

  James says that he is the one who killed Malvina. He says they met in a cafe on January 29th, 1958, and he ended up going home with her. He claims that he was at the house when her son came home for lunch. And basically, she had left the bedroom in her robe, made his lunch, and then come back when the boy went back to school. And then he says he stayed at the house until like 3:00 in the afternoon, when apparently he had gotten mad at her. He said he punched her in the side of the head. She passed out. He said he got scared, tried bringing her into the bedroom, but he wasn't able to. So he dragged her to the bathroom, put her in the tub, turned on the cold water to wake her. And then when she didn't wake up, he left in her car.

• 52:59Speaker 03

  So like-

• 53:00Ashley Flowers?

  Inconsistencies, yeah.

• 53:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was like, every sentence, I'd be like, okay, he's the guy. And then you'd say something like, coming out in the robe to make the sandwich.

• 53:08Ashley Flowers?

  From the bedroom, yeah. Nothing about the bathroom and talking through the wall.

• 53:11Speaker 03

  The cold water.

• 53:13Ashley Flowers?

  You know the water was-

• 53:14Speaker 03

  Leaving at 3:00 and not 1:40 when the women saw the car leaving. Like, those are not small things. Those are huge discrepancies.

• 53:21Ashley Flowers?

  I know. So at first, police were like, oh, my gosh, this is the real deal. This is our guy.

• 53:25Speaker 03

  It's like one step forward, two steps back every time he says something.

• 53:28Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, because the more he talks, the more suspicious they become that he is just like feeding them a false story. Because then he says after he left at 3:00, he got in the car and drove off. And then he left the car. But like, the place that he's saying he left the car, all of that had been shared publicly.

• 53:42Speaker 03

  He wasn't providing any like, only the killer knew-

• 53:44Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 53:45Speaker 03

  Information.

• 53:46Ashley Flowers?

  According to the Indianapolis Star, he goes on to say that before he left, he wiped the steering wheel off with a paint rag and any other places that he could have like left his prints. And then he locked the car, tossed the rag, tossed the keys in a gutter down the road. And like, they want him to keep talking because they're like sussing out this story. And the big piece, or like the pieces that they're like having a problem with is like, there's no motive, there's no reasoning, there's nothing. And so as I'm sure you can guess, just a couple of days later, he ends up recanting his entire confession. And he's like, I didn't do it, but I do know who did. That's why I like came for it. I'll tell you tomorrow.

• 54:20Speaker 03

  Of course. We can't believe a word this guy says.

• 54:22Ashley Flowers?

  Well, and that's what it ends up being. So like, he starts naming other people. Once one is ruled out, he's like, oh, no, no, it's another guy. And by like the fourth accusation-

• 54:30Speaker 03

  It just keeps going.

• 54:31Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, detectives are pretty much done listening to what this guy has to say. And they really just kind of chalk it all up to personal struggles that he's facing. And once again, detectives have nothing. The Indianapolis Star puts out a $5,000 reward in April for anyone with information that could lead to an arrest. And by doing this, they start getting more tips in. On July 15th, a mysterious letter is sent to the newspaper that is seemingly spurred from the reward. And the letter seems to have some merit because detectives publicly plead for the letter writer to give more information.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 55:06Ashley Flowers?

  Specifically about a man wearing gray coveralls.

• 55:10Speaker 03

  Wait, I guess I missed it. What else is in this letter?

• 55:14Ashley Flowers?

  So I don't have details. Like, it just says that they got this letter. They make this plea for the guy. But then they do actually have another letter that pops up in December of 1960. And the timing of it's so weird because I guess that when this one pops up, they've been like sitting on this second letter for the entire two and a half years. Like, it got sent around the same time as that one letter we don't know about. But when detectives find it now, either someone new is looking into the case or however it gets to them the second time, they realize that this second letter was likely never looked into. And they do actually publish this one. So I'm gonna have you actually read this one.

• 55:50Speaker 03

  Okay. The letter says, "R.E. Malvina Krutz. The same afternoon on the day of this murder, I was in my car at 49th and Meridian, heading west, waiting for a light to change, when a slim, very dark complexioned man with mustache was locking car north of Meridian on west side of street. He ran like a speed racer south on Meridian just as light was changing. While crossing street, he made movement toward his cab, but seems to toss something toward the west. Some days later, making the same trip, I drove slowly west on 49th as two small boys picked something out of the street on south side of 49th, west of Meridian. I heard one say, 'Someone has lost their car keys.' I remember another car was parked on west side Meridian,

• 56:35Speaker 03

  about third house down."

• 56:38Ashley Flowers?

  So the key is in this whole thing, or still missing, by the way.

• 56:41Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 56:42Ashley Flowers?

  Like, they've never been found, which would make sense if some kids found them, like, not long after they were tossed out, like...

• 56:48Speaker 03

  And just like picked them up? Because kids pick up like random stuff?

• 56:51Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and like kept them and put them in their playhouse and like threw them away eventually.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:55Ashley Flowers?

  And I don't get super caught up on the mustache because according to the Indianapolis Star, officers described Leroy as, quote, "the playboy type with a thin mustache." So, I don't know, helpful information, but like not much detectives can do with it at the moment. And I don't know if there's like, if the first letter had something to do with seeing the same person in like, Leroy had great coveralls, or someone saw someone in great like, the connection between letter one and letter two is like, I don't get it.

• 57:19Speaker 03

  Are they the same letter writer? Like, there's so many questions. Are they the same letter writer? Are they just two letters that like, back each other up?

• 57:26Ashley Flowers?

  But if they feel, they feel weirdly connected in some way, just the way they talk about them. But anyways, they put this out there, nothing comes of it, and a couple more years go by. But in 1962, Malvina's case heats back up because Mr. Leroy Pennick is arrested for murdering his partner, Carol Jean Martin, in their shared apartment. And Carol's autopsy says, I actually hadn't seen this before, it says she died from strangulation on blood from many cuts and bruises on the head. And she had a cerebral edema.

• 57:59Speaker 03

  So were these like, little cuts, like Malvina's?

• 58:02Ashley Flowers?

  That's what I honed in on too. I don't know. Um, they never get to like, if they're like tiny little cuts, or if-

• 58:07Speaker 03

  Like gashes, yeah.

• 58:09Ashley Flowers?

  Now, during their interrogation about this, about his partner's murder, Leroy first says that his partner was drunk, falling over all over the place, that's why her entire body was covered in bruises.

• 58:20Speaker 03

  I'm sorry, no.

• 58:20Ashley Flowers?

  I know. And then he eventually admits to hitting her with an open palm after she started cussing at him. And he also said he did drop her down a flight of stairs.

• 58:29Speaker 03

  Oopsies.

• 58:30Ashley Flowers?

  But he just decided not to get her help, and then he brought her up the stairs, but then apparently she fell again, and then like, he went to bed or she went to bed, I it's like unclear. And then he just goes on, like everything is normal, until one of his friends comes over, and his friend is immediately alarmed. And I don't know who calls the police, there's conflicting information, but either him or his friend called the police, either way, it doesn't look good for him. And that is when he's arrested. So at the end of April of 62, Leroy is indicted for first degree murder. His trial starts in January of 63. He takes the stand in his own defense where his story changes like, in court as it's happening. He says like, he just found Carol dying, and like, whoever attacked her must have left the scene before he got there.

• 59:14Speaker 03

  So he's not even like, trying to stick to the original story he told-

• 59:18Ashley Flowers?

  No, and it's not even believable.

• 59:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 59:21Ashley Flowers?

  So the jury ends up finding him guilty of second degree murder in Carol's case, which gives him an automatic life sentence. And he is sentenced like by early February. And that is actually the last thing I could find about Leroy in the news. During his trial and sentencing, it was clear that he was a prominent suspect in Malvina's case, like it was mentioned over and over. But there has just never been enough evidence to actually charge him with it. So without a confession from him, detectives can't determine if he was responsible or not. But I don't think their suspicions of him ever really go away. This is only mentioned in one place, but in an article by the Indianapolis News shortly after his sentencing, we find out that it was Leroy's fingerprints that were found

• 1:00:04Ashley Flowers?

  all over her house, which yeah, like eyes wide open, but like he also was a painter actively working inside their house. So like, that's not even something that they could use to charge him.

• 1:00:15Speaker 03

  Right, because he had a reason to be there, essentially.

• 1:00:19Ashley Flowers?

  So while Leroy is in prison, Malvina's case goes cold. And 66 years later, that is how it remains today, unsolved. Now, there was a short blip where it kind of got brought up again in 1977, when there was like this interesting connection that was made around the circumstances of Malvina's death and the death of a 23-year-old first grade school teacher named Linda McDaniel. She, I don't know if you remember this, we covered this like way back in the day because I'm obsessed with Linda's case. And there's almost no information about it. So like, we did this like mini episode in the fan club. But Linda was found in her own home. She was kneeled over with half her upper body submerged in water in the tub. No signs of a struggle, except some bruising on her arms.

• 1:01:03Ashley Flowers?

  Nothing was taken from her apartment. She was only in her underwear, but no signs of sexual assault. So there are like some eerie similarities, especially with how far apart they happened. But those similarities are where the connections end. So like when Linda dies, like everyone's like, oh, remember Malvina?

• 1:01:20Speaker 03

  It was a lot like this, but it has nothing to do with it.

• 1:01:23Ashley Flowers?

  Right. Though Linda's case is still unsolved, too. Now, many of the people in this case are no longer alive, including Malvina's husband, who passed away at 70 in 1980. Her son Buddy died, actually, just in 2017, when he was 69. And really, for this family, it felt like tragedy was just kind of stuck to them for a while. So in September, I talked about all the things that happened, right? You have the fire, you have, like, Malvina's death. And then in September of 58, so this is eight months after she was murdered, Charles Buddy and Charles' mom, Fanny, they were in a pretty serious car accident. Like, Fanny was actually killed in the crash. Charles was in critical condition for a while. It seems like Buddy made it out with just a broken arm and leg. But it was like, it was weird, where like, somebody like,

• 1:02:07Ashley Flowers?

  they were driving on the highway, someone like, saw them swerve, but nobody knows what happened. I, I don't know, like, I can't shake the feel, like, there was-

• 1:02:14Speaker 03

  There was like a darkness around them.

• 1:02:15Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And it's like the family just couldn't catch a break. This is obviously an old case, but if you have any information that could lead detectives down new paths or help corroborate previous theories, you can reach out to Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana on their app or by calling 317-262-TIPS. If you want to talk directly to the Indiana State Police, you can call their cold case hotline at 1-800-453-4756. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.

• 1:02:51Speaker 03

  And you can follow us on Instagram at @crimejunkiepodcast.

• 1:02:54Ashley Flowers?

  I like how you closed your eyes for that. We'll be back next week for another episode.

• 1:03:57Ashley Flowers?

  Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  The hustle of the holiday season is here.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Presents to buy, parties to plan. When do I have time to cook?

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  You have enough on your plate. Let Royal Farms help. Get a 12-piece, world-famous, mixed chicken meal with family-size western fries for just $20.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Oh, now we're talking.

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  Planning a holiday party? Royal Farms catering has you covered with delicious chicken, subs, and wraps for as little as $5 per guest.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Tell me why I didn't do this sooner.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  Be the holiday hero with Royal Farms. Real fresh, real fast.

• 1:04:36Speaker 04

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir. And that can only mean one thing. Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather around, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.