SC EP:1191 Remembering Dr. Jeff Meldrum Part II

Join me this weekend as we celebrate the life of Dr. Jeff Meldrum and his impact on the subject of Sasquatch. I will be joined by many of his friends who come on to share their memories of him. This is part two.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Wes Germer?

  Here's to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pigs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They're not fond of rules. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify, or vilify them. But the only thing you can't do is ignore them because they change things.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  So I was a youngster, 10 years old, in 6th grade in Spokane, Washington. And in 1969, which the film was shot in late, in October of 67, by early 69, this was March 1st, at one of the first public showings of the film to a public venue. The kids were all abuzz because there had been this newspaper advertisement for this upcoming showing on the next Saturday. So I, this just captured my imagination. I mean, I'd never heard of Bigfoot previously. Convinced my dad we had to go see this.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  He and I and my younger brother went to the Spokane Coliseum, sitting on the third row. You know, Roger comes out onto the stage and introduces himself and his documentary that showcased that 60 seconds of film footage, which we saw over and over and over on a giant screen, you know, in the auditorium there, larger, much larger than life. And wow, what an impression that made.

• 1:45Wes Germer?

  Rest in peace, Dr. Meldrum. You are missed and loved by so many. You brought a credibility to a subject that would have never had it without your presence.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  It looked like somebody was bent over and had their head in the window of the deer blind and it either heard me or smelt me and he pulled his head out of the tent and stood straight up and that, that shocked me.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  They don't make people that, that big.

• 2:33Speaker 03

  The way it moved, almost as if it was gliding across the beach. I've never seen anything move like that in my life.

• 2:47Speaker 03

  They were screaming at each other in gibberish.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  It sounded like a language and they were chuntering away, back and forwards, back and forwards, back and forwards.

• 2:59Speaker 03

  I know what a bear looks like and there is no way on this planet that what I saw bears.

• 3:16Speaker 04

  911, what are you reporting? Jesus Christ, you better... Care, see ya! Hello? Get somebody out here! What's going on now, sir? That son of a bitch is about six foot nine, I don't know. Do you see him now, sir? Yes, I'm looking right at him, uh-oh.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  This is Jeff Meldrum and you are listening to Sasquatch Chronicles.

• 4:07Wes Germer?

  This is part two of remembering Dr. Jeff Meldrum, who devoted his life to the pursuit of knowledge at the intersection of science and mystery. A respected anthropologist and professor at Idaho State University, he became widely recognized for his groundbreaking research into primate locomotion and the biomechanics of walking. Yet it was his willingness to explore questions that many academics dismissed. His expertise in biomechanics and human bipedalism laid the foundation for many of his studies.

• 4:50Wes Germer?

  Perhaps best known for his work with the Sasquatch or Bigfoot, Dr. Meldrum approached this subject with the same rigor, skepticism, and scientific integrity that defined his career. When you hear the term "mid tarsal break," that term comes from one man, Dr. Meldrum on the Sasquatch foot anatomy.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  So anyway, the heel comes up, weight's transferred through the entire forefoot, and if the substrate is of proper consistency, there's the word I was after, proper consistency, and there's the sufficient forward impulse, it will sometimes push up that speed bump, you see, that pressure ridge behind, or sometimes the substrate yields and it pushes a whole disc back into the heel.

• 5:45Wes Germer?

  Oh, I see what you're saying.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  So you get a pressure disc instead of a pressure ridge. But you notice there's not a whole lot of imprint of the toes. Most of the forward impulse comes from the forefoot. The toes are there for traction if necessary, but if not, they are pretty much passively extended.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Serve other purpose. In describing this, I mean, I I'm quite confident in what I've described to you because you can watch it take place in the foot of the of Patty on the film. You can see her heel come up first and almost reach verticality. Hmm. And if it was a stiff, artificial foot, a rigid prosthetic, then the rest of her foot, given the orientation of the heel, would have to stick eight inches straight into the ground. Hmm. But it's not, you know, it's just bent. It's flexed. And that's what that's we call that the mid tarsal break. Not in the sense of like breaking a stick or damaging, but a an axis of flexion, a strike of a flexion, a break.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  And and that that is the most fundamental distinction between a Sasquatch footprint and a human footprint. Now, you don't find that feature in every print because it just depends on the circumstances. Otherwise, I mean, some prints are flat as can be, but some, if they're if they're moving, if they're if they're changing direction. I mean, if you have experience running or if your listeners are runners, Oh, sure. Heard of the terms pronation and supanation. Yeah. So. I have a pronation problem when I run. Yeah, exactly. And so when the foot is pronated, the arch is depressed in the human foot. Yeah. And when and likewise in the in the Sasquatch foot as well, because that

• 7:37Speaker 01

  that midfoot is mobile. It it doesn't lock into a longitudinal arch. So their feet, when pronated, leave sometimes this flat, featureless print, like the two that Roger Cass, which the specialist said, oh. Where is this one from? This is from the Patterson Gimlin film site. This is one of the 10 when Titmus came back down to investigate. You said this, you said this. See, they did Titmus and the Gimlin and the Patterson. I know. You don't throw them around, man. So Titmus, Bob Titmus was a, he was actually a taxidermist. So he knew anatomy well. True. He was the one who actually instructed Jerry Crew how on how to make a plaster cast. Jerry Crew showed up at his at his taxidermy shop.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  With this piece of cardboard that he'd cut out with his penknife in the shape of the footprints that were around his caterpillar. And said, what could have made this? And you go, I have no idea. I've never seen anything like that. He said, but hey, if they show up again, take this bag of plaster with you and mix it up and make a A few days later, he shows up in town with this 16, 17 inch footprint. And you know, that's where the story came. But anyway, I was going to say, critics have looked at that despite the fact that you can watch the the dynamic action of the foot on the film. They say, ah, well, if that's the case, if that's not just

• 9:05Speaker 01

  a branch in the sand or something, then why just that one footprint? Why do all the rest? Well, it's really interesting because if you take, I've got 3D scans of the 10 footprint series that Tip must cast. Rotate him 90 degrees and boom, eight out of the 10 have a observable pressure ridge. And then on top of that, I got to tell this, on top of that, I had a chance to go actually see the original Jerry Crew footprint from 1958. Which when you see in the books, the picture was taken by newspaper reporter with a with a an old fashioned flashbulb. If you remember those days and

• 9:50Speaker 01

  you know, and a very strong illumination, which tends to make things look flat. Well, I took that original cast, took it out of the little shadow box they had it displayed. You turn it on its side and guess what? It has a pressure ridge just like that. It's just a little more subtle than that. Not quite as pronounced. I went to China and to investigate the Chinese Yeren. There was a witness who had a sighting and had tracked it. He was actually a park ranger at the time. Found footprints where it had squatted down next to a spring, made a right and a left cast. They were gonna unveil those for me to look at and evaluate. They, uh,

• 10:32Speaker 01

  before we did that, they wanted the, to set up for the interview and get, capture my initial Reaction. Reaction to it. But I had given Mr. Yuan, the witness, uh, my article, which actually was the paper on the Icnotaxonomy, which featured this particular print quite prominently in, in a figure that showed it with three views, three angled views to illustrate the, the, uh, uh, form of the pressure ridge. He couldn't speak English, couldn't read the paper, but he saw that picture. Oh, man, he got excited. Yeah. And, uh, I said, okay, okay. You know, sure enough. He opens up his little, little travel suitcase and out comes the towing, out come these two footprints. And guess

• 11:16Speaker 01

  what? They're dead ringers for this. Really? Right down to the exact orientation and position of the pressure ridge. So, the same species. I mean, I, that's why I'm convinced that, that, um, you know, the Chinese Yerin is the representation of the population of origin of Sasquatch that then emigrated to North America some of, or when you say emigrated, extended its range as a, a available habitat presented itself into North America.

• 11:50Wes Germer?

  Dr. Meldrum's research, which included the analysis of footprints and other physical evidence, challenged the conventional boundaries of what would be considered credible science. His willingness to entertain questions beyond the mainstream, coupled with his relentless pursuit of the truth, earned him both supporters and critics, but never diminished his commitment to his work. John Mayonczynski, who is a wildlife biologist, author, and longtime friend of Dr. Meldrum, reflects on his passing.

• 12:37Speaker 05

  Many, many fond memories. I think I liked camping out with him quite a lot. We had one trip in the Wind Rivers where we were following up on some sightings that had been occurring in one area, Wind River Range in Wyoming. Been a lot of sightings over the forty years I'd been working in that area, so I was familiar with them. And we camped out and had a great time. We fished in a lake. We stayed up telling stories by the campfire. And I don't, this is a highlight in a very subdued way, but just the camaraderie

• 13:16Speaker 05

  that I had with Jeff was something he had with many other people. He was so easy to relate to. And, you know, I spent most of my life deeply involved in scientific adventures, and so did Jeff. And I think being able to talk to a real scientist in a down-to-earth way around a campfire was one of my best memories of knowing Jeff over those, you know, more like twenty-seven years I've known him. He did have a sense of humor, for sure, and I certainly appreciated that. We would joke, have good times like that. But for

• 14:00Speaker 05

  me personally, I enjoyed the scientific conversations we'd have that would go on and on. And I think some of my favorite memories besides being around a campfire was driving to locations with him to do some kind of expedition to follow up on sightings, or to set out trail cameras back when we thought that was going to really solve the whole problem. And

• 14:31Speaker 05

  You know, just we'd talk for hours about issues, how to treat something in a scientific way without catering to the kind of tabloid press hubbub out there that was always apt to say things we weren't really in a position to talk about. I think just sitting in the passenger seat and Jeff driving, he usually drove, but sometimes I did to a location and having these conversations that would take us into new places where we'd think about things that we hadn't thought of before, including our research programs.

• 15:15Speaker 05

  I think even above the humor, which was certainly a great addition to our conversations, I liked the science and how he treated science. He was the consummate scientist. There were several people who really pioneered the science of Sasquatch research. Jeff was one of them. I think you could include Grover Krantz for sure in there before Jeff. And I worked with Grover prior to knowing Jeff. And there was John Bendernagle, who you mentioned, who was also a good friend of mine. And we went camping together also

• 15:56Speaker 05

  outside of Sasquatch Adventures. We just enjoyed camping together. So Jeff was able to break the barrier with peer science, publications, journals, and organizations to where he could do a presentation on a subject that if anybody else presented it without the, his eloquence of presenting the science to back up a statement, it wouldn't be accepted. And he was able to put together all of the facts in a clear, understandable way.

• 16:38Speaker 05

  That supported any of the statements that he made. And part of that, so often people would make statements, but they didn't have the background that Jeff had in science and his ability to communicate science, where they could find ways to discredit it. And you could never do that with Jeff. The things he published in respectable journals and that he wrote in his field guides was all backed up by irrefutable science. He and Grover Krantz was able to write and speak that way, but I think of all of them,

• 17:17Speaker 05

  we all respected, including John Bendernagle, we all respected Jeff's ability to communicate the truth of Sasquatch and its role in the evolution of bipedalism in primates. And also, he didn't get angry when people would try to refute him with not really understanding what he was saying. They would try to refute him with things they had read in the tabloid press as a basis for their argument. And he would very calmly and with a smile, point out the facts and the research and the data that he had to back up what he said.

• 17:58Speaker 05

  And often, he would convert people, at least to a point where they were willing to accept the topic, if not believe that there is a primate out there. But, you know, believing that it's a legitimate research topic was something that I think Jeff was able to convey to nonbelievers, to people who were quick to condemn the whole subject. Natural mentor, really, because he didn't show any superiority, he wasn't standoffish as an academic. And sometimes Grover could come across that way.

• 18:41Speaker 05

  Not that he was, but he could come across that way because he would use a lot of technical language and not reach down to a level of understanding that most people have about primate evolution. And Jeff could have done that because he was the expert on.

• 19:03Speaker 05

  On bipedalism in primates. And he had all that technical jargon in his head, but he would explain every word so that a person could understand it with such a gentle demeanor that you didn't want to back off from his academic credentials, which were outstanding. So I think it's a tremendous loss. It will not be replaced. But, you know, in a different way, I felt that way about the passing of John Vindernagel. I talked to him just a few days before he died.

• 19:40Speaker 05

  And he was looking to Jeff to carry on, you know, the candle in the darkness for this whole Sasquatch research subject on a scientific level. And now, I don't think there will be anybody that can replace Jeff. I may be surprised, but there will be others that will take up the torch, hopefully, and use Jeff's supply of literature and videos and lectures that he had accomplished in his life to keep this a legitimate science and maybe get funding. Funding was always a problem for us, and Jeff was able to get good funding because

• 20:24Speaker 05

  of his ability to present things in a way that people who would write off the subject would do a turnaround and say, hmm, this is an interesting subject, maybe the most interesting scientific endeavor that we have on this planet.

• 20:43Wes Germer?

  Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be. A mentor is someone who sees more talent and ability within you than you see in yourself, and helps bring it out of you. I have said privately, many times, that if I was not as close to John Bennernagle as I was, I would not be half the man I am today. Beyond his professional contributions, Dr. Meldrum will be remembered as a mentor,

• 21:26Wes Germer?

  teacher, and kind soul, who inspired countless students and researchers to look deeper, question further, and never be afraid of unpopular ideas. His legacy endures not only in his published works and field research, but in the spirit of curiosity he nurtured in others. I had no idea that Lucy's tracks had a mid-tarsal break. Dr. Meldrum on the skepticism and challenges.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  I mean, I must say, I was kind of in a vanguard of graduate students that were taking particular interest in hominid bipedalism, in part because of the impact, as I mentioned, of this burgeoning of the hominid fossil record. Prior to that, there were fewer individuals who were sufficiently versed in those aspects that they would have recognized. And even today, I mean, even now, the people attempt, I mean, the famous Laetoli tracks

• 22:42Speaker 01

  of East Africa that Mary Leakey discovered that have been at least tentatively attributed to Lucy's type. Show a pressure ridge, but not all recognize that as for what it is. And I've, I've made the case very strongly that the accumulation of evidence and of published studies and so forth, not, not just on the footprints, but on the foot skeletons of these early hominins have now finally acknowledged that these hominins walked on flat, flexible feet with a non-divergent big toe. See that, that struck them as having a weird combination.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Why would you lose divergence of the big toe unless to incorporate it into an arch?

• 23:29Speaker 06

  Oh, I see.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  See, and my argument was, no, you're getting the cart before the horse. Why would you keep a divergent big toe in a bipedal terrestrial hominid that doesn't climb around in the trees for its resources anymore? Because that, that's a feature that appears late in development. When you look in utero, the fetal development of an early fetal chimpanzee, its foot looks much more like a human than it does once it's born.

• 23:57Speaker 06

  Oh, really?

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:58Speaker 06

  So it would stand to reason that if you were going to make an evolutionary jump to being bipedal, right? The first thing that you're going to do is you're going to get that big toe in a more efficient place.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. That's the, that's the idea. And in fact, some apes that walk facultatively bipedal, that is, they, they can walk bipedally, although they're not well adapted. They will, you know, they will line up their big toe with the direction of travel because that works the best for the ankle and the midfoot joints. And then they end up supinating their foot into a position where the lateral digits are lined up, but there's still some idiosyncrasies. So it's not a real, real strong tendency. But to, to your original point, all of these things started to correlate together.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  And it begs the question then, what was the inspiration for, if these were hoaxed, to include a feature? And some have argued, oh, it's just a byproduct of walking on a flexible artificial foot. Well, there was one fellow, and now his name, just for the moment, slips my mind. It'll pop back in, Crowley. Crowley, who made some artificial feet out of latex rubber, strapped him to his feet, his shoes, and then, you know, he went walking on the beach, took pictures. All he'd do is juxtapose examples, and his so-called, well, his pressure ridge that

• 25:40Speaker 01

  just results from the flexibility, the random flexibility of this foot, this fake foot, moves all over the place because it's not constrained by an underlying skeleton. It's just an artifact of a flexible foot. And depending on how his foot shifts in relationship or whatever, it, his pressure ridge, yes, there's a pressure ridge, but it's never in the same place twice. Whereas these are remarkably consistent because they're constrained by the underlying skeleton. There's two bones in this transverse tarsal joint, the talonavicular, the talus is the

• 26:21Speaker 01

  ankle bone, and then the bone directly in front of it, and the cuboid and calcaneus. The calcaneus is the heel bone. So, you know, the ankle bone, the heel bone, those have common names, they're a little more familiar, but the bones directly in front of those two, which end up defining what we call a medial and lateral column of the foot, those two bones are what provide the flexion and rotation of the forefoot relative to the hindfoot that, in an ape, allow them to climb up trees. And then when they're on the ground, they can still provide

• 27:00Speaker 01

  Leverage through the heel. But see, when you're climbing up a tree, the reason to have that flexibility. When you're climbing up a tree, your foot has a dual function. The forefoot is prehensile. It grabs and the hindfoot is propulsive. It's the lever with the fulcrum not up at the ball of the foot, but at the midfoot where the, where the foot has that foot. So it can lever while still maintaining a grip. Unlike us, you know, what are, what are our options? If you've ever watched a Hawaiian shinny up a, a palm tree, you have to put your feet, you know, like a duck. You have to kind of like spread. Yeah, yeah. None of them tries to, to spread their big toes really to, to wrap around them.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  But, but all that has to do with the, the foot. So when the foot comes to the ground, it still has that midfoot flexibility. Even if the toe is no longer divergent, there are actually advantages to keeping that. And, and hominins walked on flat, flexible feet for a long, long time. For the Sasquatch, what an elegant adaptation that lets it walk up steep slopes with, still with a lot of toe length for prehension, but then it can have that flexible instep. To get its weight just kind of over. Right, right. I mean, the, the, the mental image to think of is you go off trail. You're hiking up a hillside.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  It's almost, you almost have to resort to like a mountaineer with crampons going up a glacier. You stick your toes in because you can't bend your foot. And then especially if it's constrained by, well, the modern, modern hiking shoes are much different than, than, you know, in years past when you used to wear. But you can't get the right leverage. Right. So what you end up either turning and walking like a duck. Side hill. Or you switch back, just, you know, cut, cut trail, switch backing back and forth. So that you're, you're, and then you're just dealing with the pro nation, supination aspects of it. But, but this creature has a foot that allows it to walk right up those hillsides with remarkably improved efficiency over a human.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  So it's a tremendous adaptation for the habitat they're reportedly existing in.

• 29:21Wes Germer?

  Dr. Meldrum really was our secret weapon for skeptics and scientists. Bobo from the podcast Bigfoot and Beyond speaks about the loss of Dr. Meldrum.

• 29:37Speaker 07

  I mean, I consider him a friend and he told me a couple of years back that he considered me a friend, which was a huge compliment. I thought maybe I'd, it was a little too wild for my younger days when I first met him. Yeah, I met him in 2003 at the Willow Creek Museum, the Bigfoot Museum, they, when they did the grand opening there. And it was like, it was my ultimate fanboy moment of my life. It was Meldrum, John Green, Dr. Bindernagle, Vichy Bayanov. You know, a few of the, a few of the luminaries like Ron Moorhead and just, you know, all these big name guys. And I was just like, wow. And yeah, I stayed in touch with Meldrum, you know, ever since.

• 30:16Speaker 07

  And I forgot to spend some time with him, you know, uh, he was just such a gracious guy and he was just so intelligent. And I remember when he first started doing the lecture circuit, people would be like, ah, he's boring. Like, you know, people would leave his lecture. I'm like, what he, like, the guy is hilarious. Like he, so he uses some scientific terms, you know, like up your vocabulary a little bit. Just listen to the guy. He's full of knowledge and he was willing to share that knowledge with everybody. You know, he, he listened, listened to you if you went to an event, there's a, you know, he talked to everyone there. He listened to the same questions, answered the same thing over and over and with a smile on his face. And, you know, he was always enthusiastic about the subject. When he got going, he'd always get wound up, you know, like it was,

• 30:58Speaker 07

  you hear his voice start talking quicker and stuff and he was fun. He was fun to hang around. He was, he was a funny guy. Like, I don't think you have enough credit for that, but he was the kind of, had a real dry wit. I think personally for me, it's the same as a lot of people, whether you knew him or not, was we all quoted him. We all threw him out as like, well, Dr. Meldrum discovered this, you know, and Dr. Meldrum, he's from Idaho State University. And he's an anthropology professor and, you know, we all just, he made us all look a little less crazy for one thing, you know? Uh, when, when my parents heard him speak about it, you know, Sasquatch and saw on some documentaries or whatever TV shows. They're like, like, that guy, that guy is, you know, is someone that is very compelling, you know, like from a skeptic's point of view.

• 31:41Speaker 07

  He, uh, he gave all this a little more credibility, you know, subject that was seriously lacking in a lot of credibility with the general public. You know, it's it's a like from the woo people like the furthest out woo like the, you know, the biggest apers, the whole spectrum of what it could be, they all quote Meldrum. You know, everyone quotes Meldrum and uses him as like, you know, they hated the fact that he was not like, you know, down for any fake kind of paranormal things associated with the Sasquatch or anything like that. They'd still, they'd still quote him, you know, like everyone, everyone always used his data and what he, what he, you know, both taught us about.

• 32:22Speaker 07

  And he was, he was just so, so gracious and so giving, like, I just got to thank the guy for, you know, just being so willing to share his knowledge like repeatedly over and over to like, you know, he got through to so many people's, they did those speaking engagements all over. He did tons of podcasts. I mean, he, he really shared what he knew with as many people as he could. I mean, he wrote four textbooks that all the, all the universities around the country in Canada and like Western, you know, universities used on the foot morphology and the adaptation and evolution of the, of the foot, you know, from, you know, the Australopithecine to now Homo sapien. Um, he was, he was just an absolute, you know, like leader in that field.

• 33:05Speaker 07

  You know, besides the Bigfoot stuff, just like the academics, but then he taught himself, you know, he had, you know, other professors and stuff, uh, tutoring him, but you know, he taught himself genetics and how to do all, all, all that, you know, like the, the, the lab work with, um, getting DNA. He could, he could talk really well about the, uh, structure of the eye and why Bigfoot's like, you know, about reflective, you know, the, the properties of, of the eye morphology that would be required. You know, people report glowing eyes and he, and he could go into great detail, you know, like an ophthalmologist almost, you know, on, on eye structure and what this means and that means. And he, uh, he broadened, you know, and, uh, he was learning a lot about hair morphology and he was a

• 33:50Speaker 07

  constant student. He was always learning and, and upping his game for sure. I mean, he was, he was a brilliant, he was a brilliant man. I'd say if I had to sum up Jeff is he was kind, he was compassionate, he was very patient, he was, you know, incredibly bright and was just a solid, good person, you know, like do no harm, like that was his motto, you know, and he was fun to be around and he, he was always a student, he was willing to, he was willing to take, you know, listen to you and listen to you and he was, he would consider what you had to say, I mean, he would not, you know, go along with it, of course, but he would, he would listen to you and

• 34:31Speaker 07

  and a lot of people like, uh, people like from the, whatever you want to call it, the woo side of things, you know, like there's more to the Sasquatch than meets the eye type thing. He always said like, whatever evidence you have, I'd gladly, gladly review it and look at it, you know, I said, but he's all, I, I, I have to deal with evidence, you know, it's, I'm not, you know, gathering stories, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get physical data, you know, like things like, you know, things like that, things that I can quantify and, and observe and test, you know, that, that sort of stuff, but yeah, he was, um, you know, uh, just like, I was gonna bring that up earlier, it was like, just like Dr. Beninagel. They're both, um, they were both very humble, you know, if they weren't, I guess like Grover, you know, who was

• 35:14Speaker 07

  Grover passed it, for those who don't know, Grover Krantz was a Washington State professor. He got involved in like nineteen sixty nine at the cripple foot, cripple footprints and he got really deep into it and when he passed away in the late nineties, he passed the torch on to Jeff and, uh, so Jeff, you know, and he, he, Jeff spoke about it quite a bit, you know, he was like, he, he always would mention like, you know, I hope someone, you know, really, cause there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of PhDs and scientists and professors and stuff that are, have, you know, that are interested and some of them even, you know, have their own experiences, know they're real, but they're not willing to risk those research dollars, you know, like, or get a, like a crazy reputation where they're not getting any grants or endowments. Jack was really hoping there would be that kind of academic that came along.

• 35:59Speaker 07

  Uh, but he said, you know, like there was no one that really stood out that really, you know, was dedicating, like, you know, was would dedicate their life, you know, like their life works to it, you know, their professional academic life worked to it. And, you know, he's like, he's like, well, Cliff's like the next best thing, you know, Cliff's, he's, he's on par with my, you know, guys who are getting their PhDs. He can, he can discuss that, that aspect of it right there with them. No problem. And he can identify the, the, you know, the physical features in the foot and, um, what this and that means. And I mean, Cliff's wrong. He's been fooled before. He, he admits it, you know, and he's not, he's not perfect. It's just that Dr. Meldrum, like a lot of people like to point out, he had a few, you know, where he had the wrong take on a cou- a couple pieces of evidence and they just, you know, how many, how many, like they still bring it up, you know, I was like,

• 36:44Speaker 07

  you know, it was 15, 20 years ago and he admitted he is, oh yeah, well, upon further review, I stand corrected, you know, and he just, uh, he was, you know, really humble and you'd want that guy to be your next door neighbor.

• 37:00Wes Germer?

  And Bigfoot and Beyond did a nice tribute to, uh, Dr. Meldrum. I would encourage everyone to go over and check it out. You know, many years ago, I was talking with, uh, John Bennernagle and we got on the subject of, uh, Meldrum and I'd never heard of Meldrum's encounter, but I remember John telling me about it. This is Dr. Meldrum's encounter.

• 37:27Speaker 06

  You're in Alberta, you find these footprints left by very heavy animal.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  And so then, uh, the, the flip side of that strategy, after making our presence clearly known by hiking and examining things and, and riding around even further reach with the vehicles. And we had a drone. He had a big multi-copter drone. So we could explore up and down the, the river course, which is really nice and see the sandbar. We could actually identify and see some wildlife footprints from the drone. Um, then we would stay up late at night. We had a, had a fire pit, a, you know, a culvert that was turned on its uh, end and, um, we would routinely stay up quite late.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  In hopes that our activity, our conversation, you know, cooking on over the fire would attract attention as well. And sure enough, on the fifth, about the fifth night, something approached camp. We were first alerted by these whistling calls. They were, they were kind of avian. I've not heard a bird call at night. I mean, there are some birds that do sound off at night and some owls. But this was accompanying the sound of the moose that we mentioned, stomping through the undergrowth and the deadfall and leaf litter and so forth. It was big and there were the sound of branches cracking,

• 38:56Speaker 01

  whether it was simply stepping on things or whether it was intentionally cracking things to intimidate us, it was clear. But well, in one instance, it would, it was quite suggestive of that. There was a member of our group who fancied herself something of an animal whisperer. I'll say she didn't claim to be psychic or anything unusual, but just had a real knack with animals. And so she was also very gutsy. She gets up and walks beyond the firelight into the darkness towards the, where the sounds are coming, talking reassuringly and getting, you know, there were no vocalizations of interaction, but it was clearly moving around and agitated.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  And then it broke a branch or something. It sounded like cracking a baseball bat against the, against a tree trunk. And I'm watching through a night vision monocular without the benefit of recording capability, unfortunately. But I could actually see her and this crack. And her legs started to shake, her knees started to shake. At that point, I mean, it, whether there was any other influence. I mean, we've talked about the possibility of, of the production of infrasound and the effects, the physiological effects that that can have on you. She, she retreated back to the campfire and then right at that point, I shifted my position because of the smoke.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Had a better vantage down where these sounds were coming from. And something broke from the shadows as seen through night vision and went up the slope, across the road and into the shadows on the other side. So if you, you know, if you've seen the Patterson Gimlin film, if you imagine that classic strip of Patty when she goes behind the debris, because the berm, in a similar fashion, this berm catching the firelight was obscuring what I was seeing right up to about mid thigh. But the rest of the outline was just silhouette against the, because there was no moon up, just starlight

• 41:02Speaker 01

  and the light colored gravel of the roadbed and kind of illuminating her, backlighting her, it, Patty would be her, but it, and, but that, I could see the low set head on broad shoulders and thick torso. I could see an arm move and I just, and it was like it was gliding, that smooth compliant gait, and then it was gone. How long was this encounter? Oh, just moments. I mean, if you imagine what would be the equivalent of maybe eight steps when it emerged and then, you know, just, it wasn't bouncing though. I mean, it was just gliding, which, which gave me pause, you know, because I'm looking and I don't

• 41:46Speaker 01

  want to read into, am I just seeing some shadow from some effect of the night vision? I'm sitting there looking and I almost didn't say anything because I didn't want it to be overinterpreted. But on the other hand, I wanted them to check out, because I knew I had to leave the next morning before sunup. And I said, you guys have got to look for footprints, which they did. And Todd video documented the whole process where they, you know, it was hard ground, in this case where it was exposed, where it wasn't under the tree cover, hard ground weeds and branches and so forth. But they cut the sign, they,

• 42:29Speaker 01

  you know, they being Todd and John Bindernagle and this, this other woman, Sonia, that was there. Broken twigs, disturbed soil and, you know, stones overturned and so forth. And boom, you know, here's the steps. They ran the tape.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  And I'm watching the video of this, this process and I'm thinking, no, because I thought it was on the other side of this little ravine, given its size.

• 42:57Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  I thought it was just behind the berm. It wasn't, it was on the opposite bank. But it was so big, standing probably seven, seven and a half feet tall. When they filmed, when Todd filmed Dr. John Bindernagle, excuse me, walked, he, he stood where I had been, filmed Bindernagle, walked the tape line, the penny dropped, I go, oh, I mean, that's right. That's where it was. That's exactly what it looked like, except what I saw was another foot and a half taller than John. And they eventually, they found more footprints under the, you know, in the moss, they were able to track it for like a mile before they lost its sign.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  And so, you know, good chance that it was indeed. I mean, I can't imagine anyone up there to prank us. Extremely remote, there's only one approach on that road. We were armed, you know, even though it was Canada, we were armed, had had a license to carry a shotgun because bears and cougar are an issue, especially the bears. But, you know, I just don't imagine anyone going to the trouble. I mean, why would, I guess, you know, you could argue, oh, well, Todd arranged it. Todd, this was somebody, one of Todd's cohort that came up and.

• 44:16Speaker 06

  We, we were, we were mentioning that you get asked about Todd a lot.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:22Speaker 06

  And I was like, oh, we don't need to, we don't need to touch on it, you know? I mean, not that you were opposed to it, you just mentioned that this is, we like to have these interviews where they're a little bit less, um, the same sort of questions.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:35Speaker 06

  So we kind of go over stuff like, well, some you get asked a bunch.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:39Speaker 06

  Um, but in qualifying and talking about this story, you should mention who Todd is.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Sure. And Todd, Todd's standing is a personality, an individual, an investigator who resides in Calgary, Alberta, has, has gained some notoriety for his activities because he gets out. He's been, you know, he's, he's a bit obsessive compulsive when it comes to this subject. And so he gets out there in the field, much more than a lot of people. And, and there was no question after spending five days with him, he's tall, he's athletic, he gets out there. He walked me into the ground, you know, and I was patting myself on the shoulder that I could keep up with back then, you know, I was feeling bad for

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Dr. Bindernagle, who was about, you know, eight years my senior and, but he, he, he still was quite spry at that time as well. So Todd has gained some, has.

• 45:46Speaker 06

  He's like a semi infamous like character, like not like infamy and like necessarily a bad way, but you know, people have a lot of feelings.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Notorious is a good way to describe, for, for good and bad. I mean, there are people who think that the things that he's done and the things that he has presented are fabulous and fascinating. And there's others who are absolutely convinced that he's a hoaxer and prankster and, and just, you know, carpet bagging, so to speak. I don't begrudge someone trying to monetize and turn a profit on their activities in order to sustain their ability to pursue their interests.

• 46:23Speaker 06

  Bro, that is exactly what I'm doing right now.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Well, exactly. And, I mean, they, he certainly isn't getting rich doing what he's doing. It's not, it's not a goldmine. Unless you grab that brass ring, you're the one that brings in the specimen. And, and even then, it's, it's not, well, I mean, you know, book deals and movie deals and things like that, I guess, that, that spin off from that kind of accomplishment or exposure, the fallout, I mean, but it's going to have a lot of fallout, negative and positive, as well as positive. The negative fallout, dealing with that, if you are the first person to shoot a Sasquatch, you know, you can imagine, is going to be

• 47:10Speaker 01

  quite a controversial topic.

• 47:18Wes Germer?

  Long-term investigator and researcher Monta Withers talks about the first time she met Dr. Meldrum and his impact on the subject.

• 47:30Speaker 08

  I had the honor of first meeting Dr. Meldrum. It was about 25 years ago. This was back at the Bigfoot Discovery Museum in Felton, California. I'm not sure if it's even still there. I don't know if it exists anymore. But anyway, my oldest brother Kevin and my best friend Kathy Strain, we were going up to the Willow Creek Bigfoot Symposium and we'd stopped there at the museum on the way up. And at that time, I was with the BFRO. I was a curator and so I'd already knew who Meldrum was and I was like a huge fan of his because he was always just so eloquent and even everything he would write, you know, was just like so, so perfect and informative,

• 48:13Speaker 08

  you know. And so, anyway, we stopped at the museum and he was there. And I'd never met him in person at that point, but I was a huge fan of his. So I was kind of like instantly nervous, you know, like I'm gonna meet Elvis or something. I was like, oh my God, it's Meldrum, you know. And so, so I can't remember if somebody introduced me or not, but anyway, I said, oh, Dr. Meldrum, you know, you know, I'm a fan of yours. Everything's, you know, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, oh, call me Jeff. And so, and I just couldn't help it. I was nervous and I kept saying Dr. Meldrum. So he kept reminding me, it's okay, you can call me Jeff. But anyway, so then fast forward, everybody went from there on up to the Willow

• 48:57Speaker 08

  Creek Symposium. And, you know, he did his talk and everything. And I was just mesmerized because, you know, he's so eloquent. And when he talks, it's so...

• 49:09Speaker 08

  It's so easy to understand what he's saying, even though it's stuff that's very complex. And as intimidated as I was, it wasn't his fault because he wasn't intimidating at all. It was just me being a dork and being a fan. But anyway, so I got to see him talk up there and then I'd run into him every time we went to a conference. He was always there and he was just such a nice, easy to talk to, humble person. And throughout the years, every once in a while, I'd have something that I, yeah, I wasn't sure about as far as the evidentiary value, prints and such. And so the last time I'd sent him some prints to take a look at was, oh gosh, probably, I think it was like 2018 or something.

• 49:51Speaker 08

  And they were, they were some crazy prints that, that I got up at Bumping Lake up in Washington. They were pretty deep in this kind of a sandy soil that was right on the edge of where they had drained a lake. I'd written him and sent him some photos and stuff and he wrote me back and, and was telling me what he thought of them. And he was thinking they were probably human because they were more narrow. But it was always so nice to have him as a resource. And I was so lucky to be able to be in contact with him, just kind of whenever needed. He was there for anybody, anybody who had any kind of evidence, they wanted to run by him just to get his opinion or something.

• 50:32Speaker 08

  He was just so available. You know, it's just, it's really tough to think that he's gone. I, I still kind of haven't digested it yet. It's just, there's just such a hole in the Bigfooting community now that, that everybody, I think, including myself, we just kind of took for granted. He had this way about him, just, it was such eloquence that he could communicate these really complicated ideas, you know, about anatomy and body structure and such, that. That pretty much anybody could understand exactly what he was talking about. And, you know, and he would show it on, on, you know, whatever on screen or whatever he had, or, you know, and point out different things that, like you were saying, you know, you'd never, you'd never know about.

• 51:14Speaker 08

  But yet, after talking to him, it's just like, yeah, that's totally digestible. I understand exactly what he's saying and it makes total sense. And, um, he could always back up everything he said with actual evidence. So I, I just, it's really, there's just nobody like him. And it's just kind of a, a void now. I, I don't know if there's anybody up and coming that, that is anything like Dr. Meldrum. But I mean, those are going to be some really big shoes to fill. I think he really, really helped to make Bigfoot mainstream. Um, because of his education and his credibility,

• 51:53Speaker 08

  I think he was able to, to talk to people and, and plus he was on, gosh, every TV show I think I've ever seen about Bigfoot. Um, and he was, he just made it so palatable where it's not what people would think of when they think, oh yeah, here's this crazy person talking about an imaginary creature. You know, you've got this professor with all these credentials who's, who's very soft spoken and very matter of fact, and very, very educated, who's talking about it with such a, you know, such resonance. And I mean, he just really, I think he made it so much more believable that even somebody who would scoff at the idea had to really say, well, you know, yeah, maybe he's right, you know? Because he just wasn't a nut like what they would think.

• 52:38Speaker 08

  I mean, um, back in the day, uh, what was his name? I can't remember. There was a guy that used to be around and he would, um, always stand up at conferences and, and, you know, say, oh, you know, Bigfoot's a multi-dimensional blah, blah, blah. And gosh, I can't remember his name right now, but, um, anyway, he was always known as kind of this, this wacky guy that everybody tried to avoid. He was on David Letterman too, I believe. Um, of course now I think people would probably take a second look at him and think, maybe he's not so wacky after all. But, but, um, you know, to have someone like Meldrum. Be so kind of on the forefront and everybody kind of know who he is, even people that weren't into the Bigfoot genre was amazing.

• 53:20Speaker 08

  And he had that ability to take someone who was a complete skeptic and get them halfway there in that they would go, well, you know, here's this guy and he teaches, he's professor and blah, blah, blah, you know, maybe there's something to this. So I think for future generations, he's, he's going to be an icon as far as someone who was promoting the probability of Bigfoot and showing everything that he could to prove that it exists.

• 53:53Wes Germer?

  Those who had the privilege to work with Dr. Meldrum, remembering his unwavering support for new ideas, his collaborative spirit, and his generosity in sharing his expertise. Above all, his genuine love for the natural world and its mysteries served as a constant reminder that science is a journey, one that is never fully finished, but is constantly evolving. Dr. Meldrum shares why he thinks science will not look at this subject. And in his style, he gives you a history lesson.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  The, the norms, the tradition, the, or the, the, the convention is that a novel species is demonstrated by physical remains, you know, something that is diagnostic, it ultimately, in order to establish a type. I mean, it's one thing you come in with a, with a hide or something, but the hide itself, if it's just a cut out hide, unless there's more information like DNA or, uh, you know, a microscopic analysis of the hair or whatever. You need something physical, something that's diagnostic, that differentiates it from other animals. So, you know, a jaw with, excuse me, with teeth, a part of a skull.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Other, other parts of the post-crania are less differentiating, the subtleties. I mean, sometimes you have different species, say, of a, within a genus of, of a rodent, and on the basis of the skeleton, you couldn't differentiate one from the other, but the teeth or the, the skull dimensions and so forth, it can be really subtle. Because when you're talking about a biological species, the thing that separates them into species is their inability to form viable offspring. It's more challenging with fossils, where you're, you're dealing with, just with skeletal remains. And, and that's the point is, you go into these museums, you pull

• 56:01Speaker 01

  the drawers out, skeletons may look remarkably the same, you know, it's very similar, but you look at the, at the pelage, the skin, and the coloration is dramatically different, you know? These are the way species recognize each other and the way they maintain barriers between hybridization, crosses. Anyway, so you needed something, something physical. So in the absence of that, see, I've never argued that science should recognize the existence of Sasquatch. I've simply argued, science should recognize the legitimacy of pursuing the question of the existence of Sasquatch. You know, you look at the cover of my book, and it has an endorsement

• 56:43Speaker 01

  from Jane Goodall, the, the forewords written by George Schaller, a preeminent naturalist. He doesn't endorse the existence of Sasquatch, but he endorses enthusiastically my pursuit, the justification of my pursuit of the question, presenting this, positing this question, based on the, the evidence that I have. The effort to bring it down is, again, it's multifaceted, but one of the facets is, given the stigma.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  That is attached to this. And when you, again, when you look at the history, when you look at the temporal trajectory, back in the 60s, you know, the, the notion of this thing, these things existing, when, when Ivan Sanderson, who was a, well, he was a, I'm not sure what to call him. He wasn't a PhD, but he had lots of accolades, lots of initials behind his name, lots of different recognitions and memberships and honors and so forth. He, but he was, as when it came to the school of, of hard knocks, I mean, he was a naturalist, but he also had a very active curiosity about not only topics relating to kind of cryptozoology,

• 57:57Speaker 01

  but all sorts of different strange things. But, and that didn't help the perception, obviously. But he was one of the pioneers. His book on Abominable Snowman, Legend Come to Life, Subhuman Species on Five Continents, the subtitle, a tome, an encyclopedic tome, where from his world travels, he collected all of these amazing narratives and, and evidence. I mean, you know, he's got an appendix, it was all the different footprint reports attributed to these, he called them ABSMs, was his acronym, Abominable Snowman, ABSM.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Anyway, but, but the point was, he published his book in 1962, right at the height of this single species hypothesis, where it can be only one, we're it. And so, these others couldn't exist. So you look at the reviews of his book, and it was treated like a work of fiction, fantasy. And then as a result, the science pulled back, and into that void comes all of the adventurers, the fortune seekers, the, you know, and the charlatans, unfortunately. And, and that has been the, largely the case. And so, there was an entire generation kind of tainted by that, a generation of academics tainted by that. So we see scientists,

• 59:24Speaker 01

  young, young generation of scientists coming up, and I've had, you know, Opportunities to visit with some of these occasions, various circumstances. And they're fascinating, but, but you know, I tell them, you've got to be careful. You've got to play it close to the vest until you have tenure.

• 59:42Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  You know, you, you cultivate your skills. If you're interested in this, say, and you have a predilection to molecular biology, get yourself in a position that once you're able, you can do the definitive genetic study on, on potential samples. Or, you know, whether it's bioacoustics, you know, get yourself in a position where then, once you have tenure, then you can turn your expertise and your reputation to that problem and really figure out what's making these inexplicable noises. Vocalizations, anyway, it's happening, that's happening. So because of that, of the, the spillover of, of that phenomenon has been that there's, it's very stigmatized.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  It's tabloid. It's not, it's pseudoscience, right? And, you know, when you go to find a book about Bigfoot, it's not in the natural history section. It's in, it's in the new age or the, or not the new age, it's in the unusual knowledge, unorthodox knowledge. When my book was, was taken on by Barnes and Noble to be carried as a regular offering, I would occasionally go into a Barnes and Noble and look. And I, and when the book was printed, I was very adamant that, you know, they put the little categorization. I want it to be natural science, you know? And so I'll go and look and my book was over between Bermuda Triangle and Crop Circles.

• 1:01:11Speaker 06

  And would you, would you go move it?

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Well, sometimes I would. Or if there was more than one copy, I would put one over. But I went up to the manager one time and I go, hey, why is it over here? It's supposed to be right there next to Jane Goodall's books about chimpanzees. Oh, well, you'll get 10 times the traffic over here in the new age section.

• 1:01:31Speaker 06

  Really?

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  That's what she said. And I go, well, that's not the point. I said, okay, keep one there, but put one over there with Jane Goodall. So that people who are looking at those kinds of books will see it and recognize that this is about a primate.

• 1:01:44Speaker 06

  It's an academic pursuit. It's not, it's not like a work, a work of fanfiction.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm not, not to besmirch the, I mean, there's probably very bona fide, uh, objective investigations of crop circles and. Bermuda Triangle.

• 1:01:59Speaker 06

  That happens all the time, man.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So that's been the problem is that there's, there's the stigma. And there's this notion that it, it reflects negatively this reaction of the, you know, department chairman to being chided about the Bigfoot guy. And yet there are so many people who they know of Idaho State University only because of moi, you know? And, and there are some that recognize that.

• 1:02:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  So the director of the communications and public relations was a good friend of mine. I mean, that's his attitude. Anything that you do on this topic, we'll cover.

• 1:02:45Wes Germer?

  Matt Pruitt from Bigfoot and Beyond discusses the impact Dr. Meldrum had on this subject.

• 1:02:55Speaker 09

  I mean, my favorite memory personally is just, you know, I admired him for so very long, starting probably in about 2004, when I first saw him on Mysterious Encounters, Doug Hitek's old show where I first saw, you know, Bobo and a lot of these people. And obviously I would follow every interview that he gave. And whether that was like print media or radio or, you know, internet radio back in the day, blog talk, radio, those sorts of things. And then when his book came out, it had a huge impact on me and was really inspiring, really set up to me like a high bar that I've always been at least aiming at. I don't think I'll ever reach it, but I did definitely set a standard. So to see him at so many events over the years was always great.

• 1:03:38Speaker 09

  I learned a lot from his presentations and getting to have like brief talks or interactions, either after hours or at his table or booth. But last year I did two events with him. I spoke with him at Squatch Fest in Washington and at the Ohio Bigfoot Conference. So it was really great to get a lot of extra time, you know, where the speakers are hanging out at dinner before or after the events or, you know, the night before the event starts, everyone gets into town and we went out to dinner and got to have a lot of like really good conversations, you know, human conversations, not just, you know, brief interactions at a booth or something like that. But it was really intimidating. I guess my.

• 1:04:16Speaker 09

  Personally, it was nice because I've been such a student of his by trying to consume, you know, everything that he put out there from interviews and podcasts and books and papers and presentations that he's given. You know, I learned a tremendous amount from him and there are a lot of things that I learned that I thought were really applicable to other things that I was pursuing. And so at this panel at Squatch Fest last year, they had us seated in such a way and sort of like an order to who would answer audience questions. And there was an audience question about whether or not there was competition between Sasquatches and Black Bears, since they're both omnivores. And I was just set to go first. And so I was talking about like temporal niche partitioning and spatial niche partitioning and all these different things. And I realized like, oh yeah, I learned

• 1:05:01Speaker 09

  a lot of this from Dr. Meldrum, who's sitting beside me. First of all, I was like unbelievable to me that I would ever be on a panel with Dr. Meldrum. And second of all, as I'm answering, I'm realizing like, oh, man, I learned all this from him. And so when I was done, he had a big smile and he's like, well, I can tell somebody's been a very good student. And that just meant the world to me because I kind of was like, oh, man, is he going to say, well, that's what I would have said if Matt hadn't stolen it for me. But he was a teacher, you know? And I think he appreciated that those of us were learning those sorts of things from him and spreading that to other people. And when we were given the opportunity to speak. So that was personally meaningful. But I really just loved watching

• 1:05:40Speaker 09

  him interact with people that admired him. He had a tremendous degree of patience. You know, I find that a lot of the people that I admire are such unique individuals that they they sort of exist in a bit of a no man's land. And I think Dr. Meldrum existed in that way. And what I mean by that is that, you know, he was obviously very rigorous and studious with his research and he was very conservative about any sort of claims or propositions he would put forward. Like he, I don't think he ever said anything hypothetically about the Sasquatch that violated any of the known established axioms or rules of his scientific disciplines.

• 1:06:23Speaker 09

  And that made him a very cautious thinker. And so you have this whole set of people who might lean towards more metaphysical or supernatural or mystical interpretations of the Sasquatch, who were frustrated that he didn't share their view. And so there was this big section of the Sasquatch community that those people represent, who really pushed against him. And then even on the flesh and blood side, you had these people that were constantly bringing him, you know, blob squatches and, you know, sticks laying on the ground that they took to be like glyphs or whatever. And so he was always cautious, like, well, hey, I don't necessarily think I would call that evidence. And so there was a big section of that group that thought that, well, here's a guy who's just the establishment.

• 1:07:06Speaker 09

  He's just, you know, the man, so to speak, and we have to rally against him. But on the establishment side, and I'm sure you know this, and hopefully your audience knows it, he got so much grief for so many years from fellow academics, from people in his department, from people at other departments at Idaho State University. So it wasn't like he was marching in lockstep with the institutions or with academia, you know? And so to the squatchers, they saw him sort of, or at least a certain subset of the squatchers saw him as like an ivory tower kind of, you know, figure that was not one of us to be trusted. And then to the academics, like he was this weird outlier because he gave time and attention to the Sasquatch mystery.

• 1:07:51Speaker 09

  And so that kind of put him in this unique place. And I respect that a lot because he didn't kowtow to either side. I do think that he always handled at least everything that I saw, both in person and online, as he handled it all like a gentleman, you know? And I saw people be very rude or say really harsh inflammatory things or cast a lot of blame. And he was always a gentleman to them, you know? And that's a good example. He's he set a very high standard to try to follow in that. He was very diplomatic, a great ambassador. He was open minded. He would hear people out. And not that he would take abuse, but that he would, you know, handle that in a way that was just remarkable.

• 1:08:35Speaker 09

  It's not easy, as you know, you get barraged with things and it's really. You can understand why a lot of the people of the past, you know, there's no shortage of angry cynical Sasquatch researchers who just, you know, don't treat people very well. And Partey is like, you know, I don't agree, but I understand it, you know, and he always had a very light touch, I would say with with people and he was super generous. I mean, that's one of the points that kept coming up in our tribute was like, you know, if you were to look at all of the output that he gave beyond the papers that he wrote and the book and, you know, these various like formal publications. But I would not be surprised if there are well over 200

• 1:09:18Speaker 09

  podcasts that interviews that he's given, there's probably more than that. I've never tried to go tally them all up, but he seemingly said yes to everyone and made time for everyone, which is pretty remarkable because not many people can do that, you know, and the fact that he was a father of six with a full time job and his own pursuits and he still made time to represent the subject well that, you know, if you really wanted to, any one of your listeners wanted to really get to know who Dr. Meldrum was and what his perspectives were, you could spend, there are easily hundreds and hundreds of hours of him speaking about the subject online. And so for every person that thinks, oh, he was an ivory tower intellectual elitist.

• 1:10:01Speaker 09

  It's like, well, really, because he gave his time to podcasts and YouTube channels with like 15 subscribers. You know what I mean? He's still put himself out there to share the information, you know, obviously for no gain, you know, because it wasn't like they could pay him or that he was going to sell tons of books by being on a YouTube channel with 15 subscribers, but he still always gave of that time, which shows me like at his core, he was a teacher, he loved to teach. And I think a lot of us studied what we studied because of Dr. Meldrum. Or even if you've not studied those things, most Sasquatchers are familiar with certain aspects of the Sasquatch foot because they've heard Jeff describe it or some trickle down effect of what Jeff described to other people. And then those people go on to describe

• 1:10:47Speaker 09

  in other places and like that sort of foundation that we all stand on. Maybe there's a lot of people that don't even realize who laid the bricks in that foundation, but a lot of it was Dr. Meldrum, you know? I wish I had known Dr. Meldrum better. You know, we did communicate via email and I met him at a lot of events, but I wouldn't dare to say that like, oh yeah, we were friends, you know, because I wouldn't want, for lack of a better term, I feel like that would be a bit of like a stolen valor sort of situation. Before, you know, we, when we had him on Bigfoot and Beyond, the first couple of times, I think then he started to connect my name with the previous communications we did. Like, oh yeah, I remember you. And then when we did those events last year, and spent quite a bit of time together. But before that, it would not have surprised or offended

• 1:11:32Speaker 09

  me, you know, if somebody was like, oh, hey, my friend Matt Pruitt. And Dr. Meldrum said, who? You know, and so I don't want to give the false impression that he was a close friend. He was a north star to me in many ways, not only in his thinking and perspectives, but like we talked about, in terms of the way he conducted himself in public outreach and educating people about the subject. Just a great representative for the pursuit of the Sasquatch, period, you know? And so that was always very inspiring. I gained so much from his work. And so I just consider myself like a super fan and a perpetual student. And the big message I would want to

• 1:12:12Speaker 09

  leave people with is there's so much of his generosity out there, that if anybody else is interested in being a student of Jeff's, like, that's absolutely possible with how much is on the internet. You know, I put together like a little list, a repository of things, you know, links to the book and his field guides, a number of papers that he published about the Sasquatch that are online, a handful of really long form, very comprehensive interviews, and then a few presentations that were filmed. And that's over at patreon.com/bigfootandbeyondpodcast. So it's a free post. You don't have to be a Patreon member. You can see it like right there on our front page for free. But anybody who wants to learn from Dr. Meldrum, it's all available to you right now for free on the internet. You can be a student at home, and I would encourage everyone to do so.

• 1:13:01Wes Germer?

  I want to thank again the Backcountry Manifesto Podcast for allowing me to play the clips. Benjamin Franklin once said, “Tell me and I forget; teach me and I may remember; involve me and I learn.” In honoring Dr. Jeff Meldrum, we celebrate a life dedicated to knowledge, wonder, and the unyielding search for truth. His absence will be deeply felt, but his voice and vision will continue to echo in classrooms, fieldwork, and all the individuals who admired him.

• 1:13:44Wes Germer?

  I said in the intro, “He gave a subject a credibility that would have never had it without his presence.” But after everything, we remember Jeff as a good man. Rest in peace, Dr. Meldrum.