S3 Ep279: Bear Brook Murders: A Man of Many Names (Part 2)

On November 10, 1985, a hunter walking near the edge of Bear Brook State Park in Allenstown, New Hampshire, stumbled upon a rusted 55-gallon barrel tipped over in the woods. Inside, he found the skeletal remains of a woman and a young girl, both wrapped in plastic. Authorities searched for answers, but the victims remained unidentified, and the case went cold. Then, 15 years later, investigators returned to the scene and made a chilling discovery—another barrel, just 150 yards away, containing the remains of two more young girls. And as the investigation continued, the dark truth behind the Bear Brook murders slowly began to unravel. We're coming to CrimeCon Denver! Use our code CRIMEWEEKLY for 10% off your tickets!https://www.crimecon.com/CC25Try our coffee!! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. PDSDebt.com/CrimeWeekly - Get your FREE debt assessment today!2. WarbyParker.com/CrimeWeekly - Pick 5 frames to try on for FREE!3. Upside - Download the FREE Upside app today, and use code CRIMEWEEKLY to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas!4. HelloFresh.com/HelloFreshPodcast - Get up to 10 FREE meals and a FREE, high protein item for LIFE!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  So today, we are picking up with part two of the Bear Brook murders case, also known as the Allentown Four. I'm going to give you a quick, kind of, 30-second review of what we talked about in part one. In 1985, a hunter stumbled upon a rusted 55-gallon barrel near the edge of Bear Brook State Park in New Hampshire. Inside were the bodies of a woman and a young girl. Fifteen years later, another barrel was discovered just 150 yards away, this time containing the remains of two more children. For decades, investigators worked to uncover the identities of the victims and the person responsible for their murders.

• 0:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  But meanwhile, across the country, in California, authorities are trying to solve another mystery: the true identity of a young woman named Lisa Johnson, who had been abandoned at an RV park in 1986 by the man she believed was her father. The two investigations were unfolding on opposite sides of the country, with no knowledge of one another, but soon they would collide in a way that no one could have imagined.

• 1:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that was kind of the mystery of that case, where you have these two separate incidences, where you have the two barrels, years apart, and you have Insoo's murder as well, and yet you have this connecting bridge that could be Lisa. And so, I'm interested to see. I did not look up anything before this. I'm going to be honest with our audience here. We're changing, we're doing all this stuff. Can we be honest here? I know you hate when I do that.

• 1:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't hate when you do it, but...

• 1:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I mean, we're putting in the effort for you guys.

• 1:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's not like I hate when you're honest, but...

• 1:54Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no. So, we're bulk recording. I'm leaving for the Traders' reunion. I can actually say that part. So, we had to do some bulk recording, and so, we're diving right into part two after finishing part one, and I'm kind of glad we are. I'm standing for this one because my butt was starting to hurt sitting all that time, but now, I'm standing, I'm ready to go, I got my notes, and I'm glad I don't have to wait a whole week to find out if this is the connecting factor here, or if it's a red herring. Because you do do that sometimes, Stephanie.

• 2:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, I know.

• 2:23Derrick Levasseur?

  So, I'm interested to see how it goes.

• 2:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I kinda like filming them all at once.

• 2:27Derrick Levasseur?

  It's nice.

• 2:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  It feels like we're like, we can really get into the story and we don't have to pull ourselves out like we usually do for a week.

• 2:33Derrick Levasseur?

  It's true, but in fairness to you, I can't imagine how hard it is because you're narrating the entire show and that's a lot on your, on your voice, so.

• 2:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  It is a lot on my voice, but I have tea in case I need it.

• 2:44Derrick Levasseur?

  I have peanut butter sandwiches.

• 2:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's not gonna help your voice.

• 2:48Derrick Levasseur?

  No, it's actually not.

• 2:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's gonna make it your mouth sticky.

• 2:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, but, but I'm ready to go. I'm ready to go.

• 2:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Alright, don't eat those peanut butter sandwiches into the mic.

• 2:55Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm not gonna lie, I've been, I've been muting myself when I'm muting them, but yes, I have.

• 2:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  You haven't been muted the whole time.

• 3:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Probably not.

• 3:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  In fact, a couple of minutes ago, I was like, is he eating peanut butter?

• 3:05Derrick Levasseur?

  No, and I, I'm a loud eater, I'm not gonna lie, I'm a loud eater, I'm a, I have some times I forget to close my mouth.

• 3:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you do forget to close your mouth a lot of times.

• 3:13Derrick Levasseur?

  I know, I know.

• 3:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Alright, so let's, let's get back in to the Bear Brook murders. As authorities worked with Lisa Jensen, who remember, this time she's in her twenties, they're trying to determine her true identity. They estimated, based on her dental development at the time that she was abandoned in 1986, that she'd been likely born around 1981. So when genetic genealogist Dr. Barbara Ray Venter began working on the case in 2015, she operated under the assumption that Lisa was about 35 years old. Which, remember, when, when they had put her, the person she thought was her father, on trial, she was in her twenties, and they're also sort of estimating that, we actually

• 3:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  don't know when you were born, right? Because we don't know if this guy was your father, you don't have a birth certificate. If you've been celebrating a birthday, it's definitely not the one that, that you should have been celebrating. We don't know anything about you, and that's gotta be trippy for a person. Well, to narrow down Lisa's region of origin, Ray Venter had her submit a DNA test through 23andMe, which revealed her genetic background was linked to the US and Canada. From there, Ray Venter uploaded Lisa's DNA profile to two additional genealogy databases, Family Tree DNA and Gedmatch, hoping to find more. More connections. Meanwhile, Detective Peter Headley of the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Office

• 4:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  reached out to Lisa's distant cousin matches from ancestry.com. Remember, they found two cousins fifth, five times removed. And he asked if they would be willing to submit their DNA for further comparison. One agreed. Ray Venter then requested that the cousin upload their DNA profile to Family Tree DNA and a GED match as well, which would allow for more extensive cross referencing. From there, she began constructing family trees, carefully mapping out possible parent or grandparent matches in the hope of finding Lisa's biological family. As more cousin matches appeared and more of them agreed to provide their DNA, Lisa's family tree slowly started coming into focus.

• 5:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ray Venter later said, quote, "Lisa's cousins became very, very involved. We ended up with over 200 of Lisa's genetic cousins in this project."

• 5:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow.

• 5:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  End quote, right? After thousands of hours of meticulous research, she was finally able to pinpoint a man in New Hampshire named Armand Bowden, who she believed to be Lisa's grandfather. So when authorities spoke to Armand, they learned that his 23-year-old daughter Denise Bowden had vanished in late 1981, along with her six-month-old daughter Dawn. Armand explained that on November 26, 1981, Denise had visited him in Goffstown, New Hampshire, and at the time, she and Dawn were living in Manchester with her boyfriend, a man that Armand knew as Robert "Bob" Evans.

• 6:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Isn't Bob Evans the guy with the sausage?

• 6:18Derrick Levasseur?

  I have no clue who the guy with the sausage is.

• 6:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bob Evans, like that, that microwaveable, like sausage patties? The breakfast sausage?

• 6:26Derrick Levasseur?

  That's Jimmy Dean.

• 6:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is that Jimmy Dean?

• 6:27Derrick Levasseur?

  What the fuck? Where'd you get, fuck, what? Bob Evans, the sausage guy? And I'm like, what are you talking about?

• 6:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bob Evans is somebody, man. Yeah, Bob Evans sausage, breakfast near me, delivery. I knew.

• 6:40Derrick Levasseur?

  That's not a-

• 6:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  I knew there was a Bob Evans sausage.

• 6:42Derrick Levasseur?

  That must be a local thing.

• 6:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  You think?

• 6:44Derrick Levasseur?

  I've never heard of Bob Evans, the sausage guy.

• 6:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, everybody weigh in in the comments section.

• 6:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 6:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Do you know who Bob Evans is?

• 6:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's, this is the, this is the important question of the episode. No, can I take a sidebar here real quick before I lose it?

• 6:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 6:59Derrick Levasseur?

  I just want to put it out there because I know you mentioned in last episode as far as people being a little apprehensive about loading up to 23andMe or Jedmatch. I've had the opportunity to work with Jedmatch. You got to meet Jedmatch down in CrimeCon.

• 7:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 7:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Both of my investigators, both that work for me now, work with Jedmatch as well. Great organization. And I will say, yes, you have to worry about your privacy. You have to worry about those things. I get it. But understand that if you do decide to upload to one of these platforms like a Jedmatch, they do a great job of protecting your privacy, but more importantly, cases like this can be solved because of your upload. It starts with a simple, hey, two cousins in New Hampshire happened to link to Lisa. And then that gets the ball rolling. But if nobody's uploading, this can't happen. So I, I just, my little, you know, unpaid sponsorship here.

• 7:54Derrick Levasseur?

  I think it's a great thing to upload to these platforms and you could help solve a case and help reunite a family. So consider it.

• 8:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or even help somebody like Lisa, you know, even if there was no murder involved here. This woman has grown her, gone her whole life thinking that she was this person and that she had this, this life that, that wasn't actually accurate. So you could help somebody figure out their identity, who they are, where they come from, help them find family if they think they're alone in the world. That's, that's great, too.

• 8:21Derrick Levasseur?

  That's great. And Stephanie, think about what you just said. Armod Boden didn't know what happened to his daughter and his granddaughter. Now they're connecting those dots as well, all because of the stupid little upload to Jedmatch or family tree where it just happens to connect one little dot, which connects to another one, and then another one, and another one. And here you are potentially solving a case that's what, 10, 20, 30 years old at this point? So it can make a difference just by taking 10, 15 minutes to upload your profile. They, they actually do Jedmatch does, uh, profile uploading at CrimeCon for this reason.

• 8:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And if you already have a 23andMe profile or like an ancestry DNA or there's another one that, that you can give your saliva to and they figure that out, you can upload it right from there. You can connect it. You don't have to go and get swabbed again and all that. You can just do it that way.

• 9:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Strongly recommend it. Obviously you can do whatever you want, but you, you could actually make a big difference.

• 9:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so Armand says, listen, my, my daughter Denise and her six-month-old daughter Dawn visited me at the end of November in Goffstown. And at that time Dawn and Denise were living in Manchester with Denise's boyfriend, Bob Evans.

• 9:37Derrick Levasseur?

  The sausage guy.

• 9:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Who's the sausage guy. Exactly. I, I'm gonna go on out on a limb here and say Bob Evans was not his real name, but this visit.

• 9:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Who do you think this guy's gonna be?

• 9:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  I wonder if it's the guy that uses a million different names.

• 9:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Um, I have a feeling it's gonna come back and we're gonna find out that Curtis Kimball.

• 9:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:55Derrick Levasseur?

  And, and Bob Evans are probably one and the same, but we'll see what happens.

• 9:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Curtis Kimball is certainly no sausage guy.

• 10:00Derrick Levasseur?

  He's not the sausage guy.

• 10:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's not. So this visit, when Denise and Dawn came to see Armand, this is the last time he ever saw them. A few weeks later, when Armand went to Denise's home to invite the family over for Christmas, he found the house empty and a neighbor told him that Denise, Bob and the baby had packed up and left. That was all anyone knew. Since the couple had reportedly been struggling financially, Armand assumed they had moved away to start fresh somewhere else and never reported them missing. He later said he had, quote, "No idea what to do, where to go, or which way to turn."

• 10:34Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, the police probably would have been.

• 10:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I would have reported them missing, Armand.

• 10:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Not trying to, not trying to, okay. But you know, probably should have just made a call.

• 10:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's like, I didn't, how do you report someone missing? I, I have no idea.

• 10:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 10:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  After you don't hear from them for several months, you'd think.

• 10:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 10:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  And keep in mind, this is New Hampshire though, dude. This is the same state. So they show up in barrels in New Hampshire and the police are looking, oh, who reported maybe a mom and a, and a kid missing? Well, nobody did.

• 11:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, there you go. That's a great point. We pointed that up in episode one. Look up the missing persons cases and oh, look for a mother-daughter combo. But yeah, if you don't report it, it's not gonna be there. Great point.

• 11:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so the police are like, well, this must have happened outside of New Hampshire then.

• 11:17Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a great point.

• 11:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  So after speaking to Armand, authorities were confident that Denise's daughter Dawn was Lisa's true identity. Hoping to fill in more gaps, Detective Headley sent photos of the man who had been pretending to be Lisa's father to the Manchester Police Department and asked Armand to come in and take a look. As soon as Armand saw the photos, he immediately recognized the man as being Denise's boyfriend, Bob Evans. Everything was starting to come together. Authorities asked Armand to submit a DNA test and the results confirmed what they had suspected. He was, without a doubt, the grandfather of Lisa Jensen, whose real name was Dawn Bowden. So Detective Headley picked up the phone and called Lisa, or Dawn at this point, to share

• 12:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  the life-changing news. He knew her identity. He told her that her birth name was Dawn Bowden and that her mother was Denise Bowden. He also explained that Denise was missing and for the first time, authorities were officially able to open a missing persons case for her. They warned that they believed she had been murdered. I mean, obviously at this point, it's been a long time. The last guy that Denise was seen with is also a guy who killed his current wife.

• 12:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 12:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so it's not hard to put two and two together.

• 12:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Not looking good. Yeah, never heard from her since. She never tried to reach out to find her daughter. There's reasons for that.

• 12:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm, exactly. Never contacted her father again, which it appears that they didn't have a strained relationship or anything. She's going over there for a visit. He's going over to her house to invite the family to come over for Christmas.

• 12:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 12:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  They were in touch, yeah.

• 12:54Derrick Levasseur?

  But that is a question. Why didn't Dawn's real father, biological father, ever inquire? Maybe he just wasn't in her life?

• 13:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I mean, she was, Dawn was six months old. At the time that Denise went missing, Denise was living with another man at that point. So I would assume that this-

• 13:09Derrick Levasseur?

  He's out of the picture.

• 13:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  That the bio dad was not in the picture at all.

• 13:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 13:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  So with suspicion fully on Bob Evans and all his other aliases, investigators began digging into his past in New Hampshire. And they discovered that in the late 1970s and into 1980, he had been living in 925 Hayward Street in Manchester, under the name Robert T. Bob Evans. And during that time, he had worked as the head electrician and mechanic at Wambach Mills. Which is interesting, because remember, when Insoon was, you know, looking for somebody in 1999, she reached out to a handyman-

• 13:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 13:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  -to do some work on her house.

• 13:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 13:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and this dude, who was going by the name Larry at the time, shows up. And he's handy. And this guy, Bob Evans, worked as the head electrician and mechanic at Wambach Mills, which means he too was handy.

• 14:01Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm gonna take you back even further to the teaser of this episode. The victims of those barrels were tied up with carol cable electrical wire.

• 14:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dude, you're right.

• 14:11Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go. Because I wrote a little note here. And I said, electrical cable, a wire, plastic barrel. And then all of a sudden, boom, you say this guy was an electrician.

• 14:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, it wasn't a plastic barrel. It was a metal barrel.

• 14:22Derrick Levasseur?

  They were wrapped in-

• 14:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  What they were wrapped in plastic, yeah.

• 14:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Wrapped in plastic with the carol cable electrical wire.

• 14:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  With the electrical wire.

• 14:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which, it's like, come on, you're giving yourself away here.

• 14:32Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, something that was readily accessible to him at the time when the murders were committed.

• 14:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Damn, good catch, man.

• 14:38Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, it's almost like, I've done this before.

• 14:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Shout out. Shout out to the detective perspective. Okay, let's take our first break. We'll be right back.

• 14:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, we're back and we're learning more about Bob Evans, who is not the sausage guy. He's a different Bob Evans, but it's not a real name, so he may have been a fan of the sausage. But at some point in 1981, Bob Evans started dating Denise, who had given birth to Dawn earlier that year, and the two lived together on Hayward Street, seemingly just another couple trying to make a life together. But by November of that year, both Denise and Dawn had vanished. While authorities had confirmed that Dawn was alive, the same could not be said for Denise. Investigators strongly suspected that Bob had murdered her, just as he had murdered Insoon in 2002. So, police went back to the Manchester home where Denise and Bob

• 15:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  had lived decades earlier. They scoured the basement, searching for any sign of Denise, but they found nothing. And obviously, they're looking in the basement because that's where they found Insoon, remember, under that pile of-

• 15:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yup, kitty litter.

• 15:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Of cat litter, yeah. So, they expanded their search, looking into every connection Bob had in New Hampshire. And that's when they uncovered something that changed everything. Bob had ties to the exact area where the Bear Brook barrels had been found. One of his coworkers from the mill actually owned the private property where the barrels had been dumped. Bob had been there many times, doing electrical work at the Bear Brook store, which sat on that very property. But there was something even more damning. Police learned that the barrels containing the victims were the exact same type of barrels used at the mill where Bob had worked. So, he's not the smartest criminal.

• 16:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Nope, no.

• 16:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not the smartest criminal, but I mean-

• 16:26Derrick Levasseur?

  That's why sometimes, without knowing the answers, you think like, this is some serial killer who's super smart and methodical. No, he was using what was at his disposal. Barrel right here, electrical wire over here, some tarp, some plastic.

• 16:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  An area I know well, because I've done work in that area, yeah.

• 16:43Derrick Levasseur?

  And if you remember, we were talking about it, I'm like, well, listen, if this was some transient who was passing through, and it wasn't someone who had a familiarity to that area, how are they going to transport these barrels? They would have to basically be driving around in a pickup truck with barrels full of bodies.

• 16:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 16:58Derrick Levasseur?

  And although it's possible, it would be highly suspicious and could lead to them being caught. So, it's much more, much more of a reasonable explanation to think, hey, it was close by, close proximity, they had a familiarity with the area, so they dumped the barrels there, and just hoped that they would be long gone before anybody discovered them.

• 17:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I think that's really what we're looking at with Bob or Larry or whatever the hell his name is Curtis.

• 17:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 17:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  It seems he does this where he's not planning to stick around.

• 17:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Nope.

• 17:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's not, he's like, I don't care if you put two and two together. Cause I'm gonna be, by the time you figure this out, I'm gonna be in a different place with a different name and you're not gonna catch me.

• 17:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, absolutely. And you know, we are talking the 1980s. The ability to track people like today was not where it was. If you really wanted to disappear, you could. There's no phones, there's no, like cell phones at least.

• 17:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Even credit cards weren't widely being used.

• 17:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Exactly. I mean, we're credit cards, this might be a stupid question, but we're like, credit cards really a thing back then?

• 17:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it was very new then. And people were like freaked out by it. They were like, well, what is this credit card you want me to use? Cause everybody used cash. So when you use cash, can you be tracked? No.

• 18:04Derrick Levasseur?

  So, I mean, you could, you could easily disappear back then and it would be hard to find you.

• 18:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, he did it several times.

• 18:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, the digital footprint is not what it is today. Cameras along highways and things like that, plate readers, all that stuff, not a thing yet.

• 18:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  IP addresses, he didn't need a computer, he didn't need a cell phone, he didn't, they didn't have them, you know, so.

• 18:24Derrick Levasseur?

  You can, you can drop off really easily if you want to.

• 18:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  And honestly, even like getting a job back then, it wasn't like there was these extensive background checks, you know? If you had an ID that had your name on it or the name you said you were, they're like, all right, whatever, we need a, we need an extra hand here.

• 18:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Did they even require an ID for a lot of them?

• 18:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  A lot of them, probably not.

• 18:41Derrick Levasseur?

  You do electrical work, all right, buddy, you're hired, handshake, go do your thing.

• 18:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, exactly. And we're gonna pay you under the table.

• 18:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, pay you under the table, here's some cash, call it a day.

• 18:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly, so, oh, but that wasn't all. Like you said, the victims in the first barrel had been wrapped in electrical wire, carol cable wire. That was the same kind that Bob would have had access to as an electrician. The method of killing also pointed straight to him. The victims in Bear Brook and Unsoon had all died from blunt force trauma. And just like Unsoon, the adult women and oldest child from Allenstown had also been dismembered. So the more investigators learned, the clearer it became. Bob Evans was a very dangerous man. The police considered the possibility that the adult victim found in the first barrel was Denise. They also thought it was possible some of the children were hers as well.

• 19:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  You see, when Lisa slash Dawn was first taken into protective custody after being abandoned in 1986, she told the authorities that she had siblings, but they had died after eating grass mushrooms while camping. Investigators wondered if there was some truth hidden in that story, if Dawn's deceased siblings were actually the unidentified child victims from Bear Brook. Now, before I tell you what they did with this, I just want to take a minute and address Lisa slash Dawn, the kind of trauma and horrible pain and horrible experiences that she probably went through in the first few years of her life, right?

• 20:16Derrick Levasseur?

  My god, yeah.

• 20:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because this, this man, whoever he, whoever his name is, Curtis, Larry, Bob Johnson, Bob Evans, whatever, he was most likely abusing her. And she most likely was either witness to her siblings' deaths or was made aware of them in some way, which that's a lot of loss and pain and trauma to go through so early in life. And then to go your whole life not really knowing who you are, where you come from, and then finally find out that you did have a mother, but she was probably murdered, and the man that you thought was your father was actually your abuser and captor, and whatever happened to your siblings, maybe you were about to go that same way.

• 21:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, she would have been, she would have been, what, you said six months old when she was originally, she showed up at the trailer park in California, right?

• 21:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, she was six months old when Denise and herself disappeared.

• 21:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Quote unquote, disappeared.

• 21:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  They said she was, I think, three or four.

• 21:20Derrick Levasseur?

  When she turned up at the trailer park.

• 21:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  When she turned up at the trailer park in 86, yeah. So let's see, let's go back here because Armand said that the last time he saw Denise and Dawn.

• 21:33Derrick Levasseur?

  1981.

• 21:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Was 1981.

• 21:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 21:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  When she was six months old.

• 21:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 21:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  She shows up at the trailer park with Larry or whatever the hell name he was going by at that time, and that's 1986.

• 21:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Eighty-six.

• 21:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she would have been around, yeah.

• 21:46Derrick Levasseur?

  So she's five, so she's five and a half at that point, at least five and a half.

• 21:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 21:51Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know, okay, I just want to see what the results are, because I'm, it's not exactly lining up, but as far as being her siblings, but we'll see.

• 22:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  So they wanted to find out if the, the kid, the children who were found in the barrels were related to Dawn.

• 22:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Along with the adult woman.

• 22:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, so they tested Dawn's DNA against the victims in the barrels, hoping for a match, but there wasn't one, right?

• 22:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Really?

• 22:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's not related to any of the bodies in the barrels, any of those four bodies, Dawn is not related to them.

• 22:20Derrick Levasseur?

  What is the chances that the woman, the older woman in the barrel is around the same age that Denise was when she went missing and it's not her?

• 22:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, it would, it would show an MO.

• 22:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, it shows, yeah, that's his, that's his preference, right?

• 22:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 22:31Derrick Levasseur?

  That he has a specific victim that he looks for, but I thought for sure you were going to say it was Denise, 100%. The kids I wasn't sure about, but I thought for sure you were going to say, yeah, the 23-year-old was Denise. Wow, did not expect that.

• 22:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  They've got lots to go on though now, right?

• 22:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, oh, he times.

• 22:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  They have Dawn, they've got Dawn and her DNA.

• 22:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 22:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  They also have Bob, Bob, what's his name, Bob Evans?

• 22:54Derrick Levasseur?

  I just keep referring to him as the sausage guy in my head, but yes, Bob, Curtis, Larry.

• 22:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bob, Curtis, Larry, whatever, what was his real name, Curtis allegedly?

• 23:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Allegedly, that's what the fingerprints come back to at least, but that could be from the first time he was ever fingerprinted.

• 23:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly.

• 23:08Derrick Levasseur?

  He used that name.

• 23:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  He used that alias, yeah.

• 23:10Derrick Levasseur?

  That's the foundation of what they're going off of.

• 23:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's a faulty foundation if that's the case.

• 23:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 23:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  So investigators then turned to Bob's DNA, they compared it against the victims in the barrel, and this time they did get a hit. Bob was the biological father of the child who was not related to the others, the little girl from the second barrel, the one estimated to be between three and four years old at the time of her murder. Now this discovery officially tied Bob Evans to the Bear Brook case. And at this point, authorities believed Bob was responsible for all four murders. But there were still so many unanswered questions. Who were the victims? Three of them weren't biologically related to him. How had they come into contact with him? And as for the child who was his daughter, where was her mother? Had Bob killed her too?

• 23:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why did he kill his own child? Right? So many unanswered questions. Beyond that, there was another major problem. No one knew who Bob really was. It was obvious that he had been using multiple aliases, but his true identity remained a mystery. Investigators were desperate to uncover it because they believed there were more victims out there.

• 24:20Derrick Levasseur?

  100%.

• 24:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Obviously, yes. I, so many unanswered questions, but I think we can really safely settle on the fact that there's others that he's done this to.

• 24:29Derrick Levasseur?

  And I am going to go out on a limb here and say, it's not even a limb. Curtis Kimball is not his real name. That's my, that's, that's my money pick that he started, the first time he was arrested, right? Cause the only way they got those fingerprints was at some point he was arrested, right? And as you just said, there's not as much of a process. There's not a fingerprint upload database where it's going into AFIS and they're checking it out. So the first time he's arrested, whenever that was, he gives this name. So that's why it comes back to Curtis Kimball. But does that mean most of his life he was Curtis Kimball? No. So I have a feeling they're going, he's got a different name, his real name. And if they can figure that name out, that's where they link it to all, the mom, all these other people, it's all going to unfold at that point.

• 25:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, investigators knew if they could determine his real name, they might be able to track down other crimes he had committed. So to build his timeline, investigators began tracing all the names he had used over the years. They discovered that in 1980, before he had started dating Denise, Bob had repeatedly listed a woman named Elizabeth Evans as his wife on official documents. The first instance appeared on January 9th, when a certified letter addressed to Bob was signed for by a woman using That name. The following month in February, Bob was arrested in Manchester for issuing a bad check back in December of 1979. Again, he listed his wife's name as Elizabeth Evans.

• 25:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  He was arrested again in May for the theft of services, stealing electricity, and once more, he said his wife's name was Elizabeth. Then in October, he was arrested yet again for diverting electric current, but this time he didn't list a spouse. Now, police searched for Elizabeth Evans, hoping to track her down, but they couldn't find any record of her. They started to wonder if it had been another alias, perhaps a name that a woman involved with Bob had been using. But if that was the case, then where was she now? Had she been another one of his victims? Or honestly, I was thinking like, is Elizabeth Evans just another alias he uses? You know, as, as to have

• 26:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  some legitimacy or credibility? Like, oh, I have this wife, I have this person here, who knows?

• 26:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Possibly. Absolutely. This guy's a pathological liar. We've already established that, right?

• 26:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  And really good with electricity, apparently.

• 26:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Good with electricity and a pathological liar. It's possible that maybe this was a person, without me knowing any of the story where it's gonna go, that was also involved in some criminal activities and she was going by an alias as well. You know, sometimes, you know, these people find each other and maybe something happened and he decided he didn't want her around anymore. She knew too much. So I don't know where it's gonna go, but it could just be a completely made up person as well.

• 27:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  It could be. It's, it could be, but on that note, because we are gonna talk more about it, and we're gonna have a lot of illumination happening in this next hour, so let's take a quick break.

• 27:28Derrick Levasseur?

  All right, we're back from breaking. The one other thing I was thinking about while we were taking that break was, I don't think that he would have gotten officially married. That would have been too much of a paper trail. So the idea that this woman's last name was actually Evans? That that throws me off. So that's just one thing I was thinking about. I don't know where that's gonna lead, but.

• 27:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so if there was a woman who was going by the name Elizabeth Evans, she would sort of have to be in on.

• 27:52Derrick Levasseur?

  She'd have to be in on it. I don't think there was an official wedding where the fam- family and friends came out.

• 27:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, he did get married to Ensoon, remember?

• 28:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 28:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  But in a backyard wedding, so who even knows if it was official?

• 28:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Everything's like so unofficial.

• 28:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So investigators were able to determine that after Denise went missing in November of 1981, Bob took Dawn, and who remember was six months old, and left New Hampshire heading west. Investigators determined that from March of 1984 to May of 1985, they were living in Los Alamitos, California. By that time, Bob had adopted yet another alias, Curtis Mayo Kimball. That's who we know him as when he married, um, his, I guess, second wife?

• 28:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that we know of, that we know of.

• 28:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  He was working as an electrician and he told everyone that Dawn was his biological daughter, though he referred to her as Lisa. In May of 1985, Bob was pulled over in Cypress, California for driving under the influence. When the police officers searched his car, they found four-year-old Lisa inside, and he was arrested and charged with DUI child endangerment and hit-and-run involving property damage. But before he could be held accountable, he, surprise, surprise, failed to appear in court and a warrant was issued for his arrest. He evaded capture and disappeared again. Later that year, in November of 1985, the first barrel was discovered in Bear Brook State Park. At that time, no one had any idea that the man who had just slipped through the cracks in California was the same man

• 29:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  responsible for the horrors that had been hidden in the woods of New Hampshire. In January of 1986, Bob, now using the name Gordon Jensen, arrived at the Holiday Host RV Park in Scotts Valley, California with little Lisa in tow. He once again told people she was his daughter, that she was around four and a half years old, and that her mother had passed away. Saddling into the park, he took a job as a handyman, doing odd jobs to support himself and Lisa. This was where Richard and Catherine Decker first met Lisa. Over time, they grew increasingly concerned about her well-being and tried to arrange for their daughter to adopt her. But before the adoption could be finalized, Bob disappeared. The adoption never went through, Lisa was placed in protective custody, Bob meanwhile,

• 30:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  was being investigated for child abandonment. When authorities looked into him, they discovered that Gordon Jensen wasn't a real identity, his fingerprints matched those of Curtis Kimball, a man with an outstanding warrant for failing to appear in court on the DUI and child endangerment charges. So it was clear to investigators that Bob had abandoned Lisa, so they issued three felony arrest warrants for him, but it would take years before he was finally caught. By 1988, Bob resurfaced under another name, this time living as Gerald Mockerman in San Luis Obispo, California. In November of that year, police pulled him over while he was driving a stolen vehicle from Preston, Idaho, and he identified himself as Gerald Mockerman.

• 30:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  But before the authorities could tie him to his previous identities, he vanished again. Then in March of 1989, after years on the run, he was finally arrested on outstanding warrants for abandoning Lisa. He was sentenced to three years in prison, but in October of 1990, he was granted parole. And the very next day, he absconded. A parole violation warrant was issued, but he wasn't picked up, and once again, he disappeared into thin air. For the next 12 years, he remained a fugitive. By December of 1999, he had reinvented himself again, now living in Richmond, California as Larry Vanner. That was when he met Unsoon Jun. Meanwhile, all the way across the country, the second barrel was discovered in Bear Brook State Park in May of 2000.

• 31:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Though at the time, authorities had no idea that the man they were looking for was living in California under yet another assumed name. In 2002, Larry killed Unsoon and was arrested for the last time, and that was when Detective Roxanne Gorunhide began unraveling his past. I do wonder, why did Larry slash Curtis slash whatever, he's got a million, Bob?

• 32:00Derrick Levasseur?

  He has a million names, he has a million names at this point.

• 32:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why did he murder Unsoon and then stay there?

• 32:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Stay there when she was in the basement and he knew that people are gonna come looking for her and when her friends and family were like, hey, we need to hear from her or we're calling the authorities. Why did he not leave again? Why did he stay?

• 32:19Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a great question. I think it was a short term thing. I think he knew he was exiting. He just needed to buy a little bit of time, which would explain the cat litter. He knew that for the short term, the cat litter would hide the scent, would absorb any moisture that could also cause odor. So this was a temporary fix. Clearly, like you said, this was a big pile of cat litter. Anybody who came over, who went to the basement would have discovered her body and it's game over. So this wasn't a long term play. He didn't try to bury her body somewhere or throw her in a, in a, in a ocean. He, he basically just said, hey, I'm gonna leave her here. I don't care if they find her. I just wanna make sure it's long after I'm gone. And by the way, they can come looking for Bob because he doesn't exist. So they don't, he, it's an MO.

• 33:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  He was Larry then.

• 33:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Larry, whatever his name is. Larry, Mo, Curly, go with whatever you want. But he's gonna have a different name. He's gonna have a different identity. He's gonna be in a different part of the country. But now we're starting to see a pattern of behavior. Doesn't put a lot of thought into the actual disposal of the bodies. It's a short term play. He knows that by the time they discover the bodies, he's gonna be long gone with a completely new backstory, a new identity, and just continuing on in life in different parts of the country. This is a really dangerous individual.

• 33:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, but he didn't leave. That's why I just don't understand.

• 33:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, how long did he stay after he killed her? That's the question. Couple of weeks?

• 33:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, it was probably a couple of weeks, but that's a long time when people are like pasturing you, like, where is she? Where is she? We're gonna call the police if I don't hear from her. You'd think that this guy, I mean, maybe at this point, he's older. He's like, man, I'm tired of running, you know, like.

• 33:55Derrick Levasseur?

  And he also might be trying to figure out his next play.

• 33:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, where am I gonna go? I don't have money. Like, what am I gonna do? Kind of thing.

• 34:01Derrick Levasseur?

  He probably figured I can buy some time for a week or two. I'll keep stringing them along and I'll be out of here before it gets too hot. And then when it started to get really aggressive, that's when he was like, I gotta go, which is why he left when he did and which is why he left the place the way it was.

• 34:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, during the investigation into trying to figure out who Bob Evans really was, police uncovered several key details about his habits and lifestyle. He was an alcoholic who lived a transient lifestyle, frequently moving between campgrounds, trailer parks, and motels. He was known to drive multiple vehicles, including a red Dodge pickup truck with a light-colored camper, model year between 1965 and 1968, a white Ford van, 1978 model, and a two-toned VW van with a light-colored top and a blue or green bottom. Now, authorities also learned additional information about Bob, details they believed could be true but weren't fully verified.

• 34:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  He told people that his birth name was Ulos Jensen and that he had been born in Evanston, Wyoming, claiming Norwegian and Danish ancestry. He also said he was the youngest son in his family and that he had run away from home as a teenager. There were indications that he might have attended the following schools in Phoenix, Arizona, Lowell Elementary, North High School, and Deverie Institute of Technology, where he claimed to have studied electronic engineering and design. Authorities also believed he may have served in the military, possibly in the Navy, and he may have spoken a foreign language. Bob had also told people over the years that he had been married to a woman named Denise Laporte.

• 35:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  He claimed they had met in Quebec, Canada, married in Roanoke, Virginia, and that she later died in Houston, Texas. Police were never able to confirm any of this, and they could not locate a woman by that name. At another point, he told people that he had been married to a woman who had been murdered in Corpus Christi, Texas, in the 1980s. Bob claimed to have two young children, one around two years old and another just six months old. Witnesses also reported seeing him with an unknown woman in her 20s or 30s, along with four small children, in a dark four-door sedan in California during that same decade. The more investigators learned, the clearer it became that Bob Evans, Curtis Kimball, Larry Vanner, whoever he really was, had spent decades hiding in plain sight, leaving

• 36:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  a trail of unanswered questions. False identities and potential victims in his wake. At this point, there were still significant gaps in the story, but police knew they were moving in the right direction. They firmly believed Bob was responsible for the Bear Brook murders. There were far too many similarities between those killings and the murder of In Sun Jun, the one murder they could say with absolute certainty that he had committed. However, even with all of this evidence, they still didn't know his real name, nor did they know the identities of the victims in the barrels. With nowhere else to turn, authorities decided to take the case to the public, hoping that someone, somewhere, might have the information that they needed.

• 37:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this is a necessity. This is a necessity at this point because you have a very good timeline. You just laid it all out as far as picking up around 1981. We have Denise going missing, so we know that Bob was involved with her, quote unquote, Bob Evans, right? She goes missing with her daughter Dawn. So we have a little bit of a timeline there and you kind of just laid it all out. How you have from 1981 where Bob, right, is having this relationship with Denise and then Denise and her daughter Dawn go missing. Then obviously Bob goes right to California with Dawn and the story kind of picks up from there. You have a pretty good timeline of where he was going throughout the country using these different aliases, right?

• 37:51Derrick Levasseur?

  But before that, who was Bob Evans before 1981? Who was he involved with? Where was he living? Because that's going to open up a whole new can of worms. And so my initial thought is kind of like a really simple one would be post this guy's photo everywhere. That's my simple thought is I know like we're not in a digital age at that point, but we're getting closer to it. But you put that you put his photo out everywhere. Someone is going to know this guy, maybe not by his real name, but as you follow those breadcrumbs, it's going to trace back to his original origin to when he was in his teens and you got to do that slowly but surely so. The simplistic approach is just to start in New Hampshire, put out the photos everywhere,

• 38:34Derrick Levasseur?

  and try to get him out nationally to see if someone can identify him, because that's how you're gonna learn his real name.

• 38:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  And do you think that it would benefit them to do like age regression photos, almost like, hey, this is what he looked like in, you know, the 2000s, but this is what he might have looked like in the 60s and 70s, when he was younger?

• 38:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Possibly, yeah, possibly, unless, I mean, and if he hasn't really changed his appearance too much, you should be able to, people should be able to identify him. And also, you look for photos that he might be in possession of. Does he have anything that shows him at a younger age? You also put out a little bit of a description about him. He's an electrician, handyman, some of his likes and dislikes and hobbies, vehicles he liked to drive. You put all those things into a bulletin with his photos, as many as you can, different angles, different haircuts, and you see who comes forward and says, yeah, I know that guy, his name's actually Jim, he used to work over here, or this is Bob, he used to work over here. And slowly, you can maybe start to paint a picture of who he really is, because you want to get back to at least in his teens. Because more than likely, I don't even know if you said how old he is

• 39:36Derrick Levasseur?

  at the point in 1981, I'm assuming he's not too young.

• 39:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's not, yeah.

• 39:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Dawn's 23, but I'm assuming he was, I'm sorry, Denise was 23, I'm assuming he was older.

• 39:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he had to have been.

• 39:48Derrick Levasseur?

  So, he's got a history. There's more there, and maybe more victims. So, yeah, if you can't figure out who it is on your own, you gotta go back to basic investigative tactics and start putting out a bulletin. It's not gonna, it's not gonna hurt your case at this point, you're just looking for an ident, uh, identity of this guy. So you put it out there, and you see what, what comes back.

• 40:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, let's take a quick break, and we'll be right back. So, the authorities now, they're like, we gotta figure out who this guy is, let's take it to the streets. And in January of 2017, the New Hampshire Department of Justice held a press conference to announce that they had officially identified a suspect in the Bear Brook case. They explained that while they still didn't know his true identity, they had compiled an extensive list of aliases he had used over the years. Including Robert Bob Evans, Curtis Kimball, Gordon Jensen, Gerald Jerry Mockerman, and Lawrence Larry Vanner. They mentioned that he may have been married to a woman named Elizabeth Evans.

• 40:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  They released a timeline of his movements along with a series of mug shots they had managed to track down. And authorities stated that they believed Bob was a serial killer responsible for multiple murders, including the Bear Brook victims, missing woman Denise Bowden, and the unidentified mother of the child from the second barrel. They also expressed concern that there could be more victims out there, people whose disappearances had gone unnoticed or unsolved due to the gaps in Bob's timeline. They asked anyone with information to please come forward. Now Dawn, who was still publicly going by Lisa, released a statement following the press conference. She said, quote, "I am so thankful to be reunited with my grandfather and cousins after all these years.

• 41:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  I want to send out a heartfelt thank you to all the organizations and tireless individuals who made this possible. As a victim in this incredulous story, I would like to ask that the media respects my privacy. Currently, I have three beautiful children and a loving husband and would like our presently happy and secure life to remain intact and protected through the release of this story. Please turn your focus towards the unidentified victims and other potentially unknown victims in this case, and hopefully their families will also be offered some closure as this investigation continues. Thank you." End quote.

• 42:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Damn. Perfect statement.

• 42:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I feel so happy that Lisa or Dawn, I'm sure she still goes by Lisa because you're not just gonna change your name overnight.

• 42:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I would probably stick with Lisa at that point as well. Everyone knows you as Lisa, your kids know you as, you know, Lisa or mom, whatever.

• 42:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, exactly. But she was able to find a loving man who was good to her.

• 42:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 42:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Who, who they got married, they had, you know, they started a family, and she gets to have these three children and this husband who love her, even though she had such a rough start in life. And that makes me very happy.

• 42:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Extremely happy. And, and you know, unfortunately, as you were talking about earlier with trauma, how it can pass down from generation to generation, and it can also just impact people in, in different ways to, a lot of times this, this history of trauma can be cyclical in nature where it just keeps going around and around, but to see that she's... Remained out of that cycle and like you said, were able to take this horrific situation and still have her own family that she loves very much and the fact that she's focused on protecting them, even though she's the victim here, it's, it's, uh, says a lot about her. So happy for her.

• 43:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  It does. And it's like, it could have gone the other way, you know, like I said, who knows?

• 43:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Alcoholism and drugs and just to cope. And yeah, she's got her friends and family around her. So good for her.

• 43:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  And obviously she ended up, at least after she was in the system, she ended up being adopted by a family that clearly loved her, took care of her and, and gave her the best kind of, you know, maybe not the best start because they couldn't control that, but helped her to connect to something and to have some sort of basis of what a loving family looks like. So she could go on to have her own. And that makes me feel very good.

• 43:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm hmm. Absolutely.

• 43:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, following this press conference, dozens of tips flooded in with people hoping to help identify the Bear Brook victims. While none of these tips directly led to identifying the victims, they did bring renewed attention to two other long forgotten missing person cases in Manchester, New Hampshire. One of these cases involved 25 year old Denise Denault, who was last seen leaving a social club in Manchester at around 1:30 a.m. on June 8th, 1980. According to witnesses, she told people she was going to a party, but after that she was never seen or heard from again. At the time of her disappearance, Denise was divorced with two young sons. She lived with a roommate in the 300 block of Hayward

• 44:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Street in Manchester. And where have we heard Hayward Street before?

• 44:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 44:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, this was the same street where Denise Bowden had lived with Bob Evans.

• 44:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 44:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Denise was reported missing the day after she vanished. And I don't mean Denise Bowden. I mean, the, the other Denise, Denise Denault. She was reported missing the day after she vanished. Her loved ones knew something terrible had happened to her. Her friends said, quote, "She loved her sons more than anything. She would not have left them on purpose." End quote. For decades, nothing happened in Denise Denault's case. There were no leads, no suspects. Little media attention. That changed in 2017 when the New Hampshire authorities held that press conference about having a suspect in the Bear Brook murders. Afterwards, someone came forward and reported Denise missing again. This time, the police officially reopened her

• 45:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  case and entered her into the National Crime Information Center database.

• 45:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, we talk about that all the time, NCIC.

• 45:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  NCIC, yep. At first, investigators considered the possibility that Denise Denault's disappearance was connected to Denise Bowden's. They said, quote, "Obviously, we're taking a look at it. Denise went missing in June of 1980. Bob Evans left with the other Denise in November of 1981, so it's possible he was around during that timeframe as well," end quote. However, after further investigation, they ruled out any connection between the two cases. They said, quote, "There's no evidentiary connection between the two. The only reason there's been talk about a connection is because the interest in the original case resulted in renewed investigation into the Denise Denault case," end quote. I don't know if I could just

• 46:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  immediately say, like, "Hey, there's no connection. She lived on the same street."

• 46:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Lived on the same street, but also, and maybe I'm missing something here. Maybe I'm missing something here, but we still have not identified the original victim from the barrel, who is, if you, if you remember, originally, they said 23 to 33, but then they came back after further testing and said mid twenties. Denise is right there, 25 years old, literally mid twenties.

• 46:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, maybe they, maybe they tested her DNA against.

• 46:49Derrick Levasseur?

  They must have. They must have. How could they say that? I mean, they must have thought the same thing that I'm thinking.

• 46:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  But that still wouldn't rule out.

• 46:57Derrick Levasseur?

  That he could still be tied to her disappearance? Yeah, it could have been a quick kill.

• 47:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, because the other Denise was not the woman in the barrel, and she's missing.

• 47:04Derrick Levasseur?

  And how do we know he didn't kill her and put her somewhere else? You know, so I completely agree with you. If you have a monster like this living in your community, he's seeing these young women, like, as you had mentioned earlier, certain demographics, certain target, that the certain victim that they, they're drawn to, he could have been looking at Denise for months, and, and had this urge that he finally acted on. Could explain everything.

• 47:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know.

• 47:28Derrick Levasseur?

  So I'm with you.

• 47:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  But, but I don't know how they ruled it out, right?

• 47:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, well.

• 47:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know how they did.

• 47:33Derrick Levasseur?

  They do have more information than us, but yes, I'm in agreeance with you as I'm sitting here right now.

• 47:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, Manchester Police continued to investigate Denise's disappearance, Denise Denault. They eventually searched the woods behind an apartment complex on Kimball Street in Manchester, hoping to uncover evidence related to her case. And search dogs did alert to our particular area, prompting investigators to bring in heavy machinery to dig through the woods. However, authorities never released any information on whether they found anything. And to this day, Denise Denault remains missing. Her case is not solved. So, once again, if you didn't figure out who did it, or what happened to her, how can you rule out that it could have been Bob Evans?

• 48:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, there's definitely more information in this case that they're not disclosing, right? Because they didn't just end up at this particular location just on a whim, right? There's something they know, there's tips they're receiving where they're going in a different direction with it. Now, could they be wrong? Of course, wouldn't be the first time. But there's, there's more that they know.

• 48:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, they missed the damn first barrel, apparently.

• 48:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's more about this case than we know that they may have information on, which is why they're saying, okay, it doesn't fit. But it is always a risk to put that out there, because now if you have to backtrack, you look like idiots. So, to come out there and say that when you really don't have to, it makes me believe that they have something concrete, but I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't and they made a mistake here.

• 48:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm definitely not going to just write it off and say, well, they said there's no connection, so I guess there's not, no.

• 49:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course, of course. The fact that you had that type of person living in that community.

• 49:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  On the same street!

• 49:05Derrick Levasseur?

  On the same street. It's, uh, it's concerning.

• 49:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Another tip came in about the disappearance of 17-year-old Elizabeth Lamott, a Manchester teenager who had been missing for decades. Lamott had been placed at the Youth Development Centre in Manchester prior to her disappearance. On November 22nd, 1984, she was granted furlough to attend an event at Gills Stadium, but she never returned. Months passed with no sign of her, and on July 27th, 1985, her 18th birthday, her case was officially discharged from YDC, which is the Youth Development Centre. Lamott was not reported missing to the Manchester Police Department until 2017, when her family learned that the The New Hampshire authorities were searching for a woman named Elizabeth Evans.

• 49:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Her relatives wondered if there was a chance that their missing Elizabeth could be the same Elizabeth that investigators were looking for. Authorities launched an investigation, but after following up on leads, they determined that Elizabeth Lamott had no connection to Bob Evans or the name Elizabeth Evans. Still, the renewed attention on her case led to an important step. Manchester police officially entered Elizabeth Lamott's information into the National Crime Information Center database as a missing person. As part of that investigation, two of Lamott's brothers provided DNA samples, which were then submitted to NamUs. That was when authorities finally got a break. The DNA was matched to an unidentified woman found murdered in Tennessee in 1985.

• 50:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  The remains had been discovered in the city of Greenville in Greene County along Interstate 81 on April 14, 1985. The woman had no identification on or near her body, and for decades, authorities had no idea who she was. An autopsy determined that she had died from blunt force trauma to the head and had likely been dead for two to three weeks before her body was found. Investigators in Tennessee had run her DNA through national databases multiple times over the years, but there'd never been a match until Elizabeth Lamott's brothers submitted their samples to NamUs. And the investigation into Lamott's murder continued, but unfortunately, it does remain unsolved to this day. So this brings me back.

• 51:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  How do we know it's not Bob Evans? Okay? We don't know that Bob Evans wasn't responsible also for Elizabeth Lamott's disappearance and murder.

• 51:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Agreed.

• 51:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's been, it's unsolved.

• 51:33Derrick Levasseur?

  It's right around the timeframe where he could have been, I don't know. We know he went to California shortly after, right? So-

• 51:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  That doesn't mean he stayed there the whole time.

• 51:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Doesn't mean he stayed there. He could have traveled. Could have taken an alternate route. There could have been a point where she was with him as well. He, he is starting to develop this young, this MO for younger women. He abducts them, he takes them, he gives them different identities, maybe gives them- Some type of backstory to tell people.

• 51:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they have kids sometimes.

• 52:00Derrick Levasseur?

  And also, let's not forget about the MOs in the, in the first couple of cases, the victimology of our first victims in the barrels, blunt force trauma for at least two of them.

• 52:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly, that's what I was thinking.

• 52:11Derrick Levasseur?

  So, so that you also have that as well. So there is some ties here. It could be a coincidence, but no, are you taking it off the table? Of course not. The, the fact that this happened in this proximity, in this community around the same time with a similar MO as far as cause of death, it's something you gotta consider.

• 52:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I com- I completely agree. And it's weird to me that authorities are like, no, there's no evidentiary, you know, proof that, that these two things are connected. And that's fine. But if you have something concrete that definitely in your head is like, absolutely, these are not connected, release that.

• 52:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Correct.

• 52:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or say, we have something that shows with beyond a shadow of a doubt that these two cases are not connected. But you have a serial killer living in this neighborhood where all these young girls of the same demographic are sort of going missing and then ending up dead. A serial killer, okay? And you're just gonna be like, nah, that's no connection here. There could be, in my opinion.

• 53:06Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm with you. And you're right. Just because there's no inculpatory evidence doesn't mean that you still don't have to provide exculpatory evidence. There still could be a connecting factor there unless, like you just said, there's something definitive that says, hey, we have him over here. There's no way he could have been there.

• 53:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly.

• 53:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Then like you said, release it. If that's the case, release it. Put it to rest.

• 53:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  But there ain't no way that you know where that guy was all the time. It was the 80s.

• 53:31Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, I'm with you. Still, as we're sitting here right now, very uninformed in the grand scheme of like this case, based on pattern of behavior, I would say he's, he is somehow tied to it. But I guess that's without having all the info.

• 53:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it doesn't look like he was adverse to sort of hunting in his own backyard. So...

• 53:49Derrick Levasseur?

  All these women around these, this age, fitting this profile, same manner of death, you got no connection? Hmm, I don't know.

• 53:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, tell me why. Do the math for me, guys, and tell me why.

• 54:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah. Give me, give me the evidence.

• 54:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, let's take our last break and we'll be right back.

• 54:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  The press conference announcing that Bob Evans was responsible for the Bear Brook murders had been groundbreaking for many reasons. Not only had it reignited public interest in the case, but it had also helped bring attention to two unrelated missing persons cases, cases that for decades had been forgotten and are allegedly unrelated. Let me just say that. Maybe related, allegedly not.

• 54:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Allegedly unrelated, yeah.

• 54:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  But despite the progress, authorities still didn't have the answers that they needed the most. They still didn't know who Bob Evans really was, or who the women in the barrels were, the women and the girls. So in June of 2017, in yet another attempt to uncover his true identity, police released a video of a 2002 interview with Evans following his arrest for the murder of In Soon Jun. Investigators hoped that by showing his mannerisms, speech patterns, and overall demeanor, someone might recognize him and come forward with information. But once again, they had no luck. With no other leads, they turned to the person who had already helped them uncover so much, genetic genealogist Dr. Barbara

• 55:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ray Venter, using the same DNA mapping techniques she had used to identify Lisa. She began building out family trees from the killer's DNA profile, meticulously piecing together his biological lineage. It was a massive undertaking, requiring thousands of hours of work. But in the end, it paid off, and Dr. Barbara Ray Venter eventually and finally found the answer that eluded investigators for so long. Bob Evans' real name was Terry Peter Rasmussen.

• 55:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Boom, genetic genealogy for the win. It's amazing.

• 55:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know why they didn't start there, to be honest, like those.

• 55:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 55:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know what I mean?

• 55:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, if it did, we wouldn't have a story to tell now, would it?

• 55:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we would. We just, we would have gotten there quicker. But then these other victims wouldn't have been identified, so.

• 56:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Genetic genealogy, man, it is the future. It is the future. Like I said, I can't say too much for legal reasons, but it's a big factor in what we're doing with Criminal Coffee, and the main reason we're probably going to be able to solve this next one.

• 56:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it makes me sad too, because then you start to find out, like, you know, these people have living relatives and they've been wondering what happened to them and it like fills in all these gaps in their story. Their story didn't start when they were found dead, wherever they were found dead. They had a life before then. They had people and it just really, it makes you sad. So now we know who Bob Evans is, okay?

• 56:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 56:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Who Larry is. Terry Peter Rasmussen, and that name might sound familiar to some people who are in the true crime space. It was a groundbreaking discovery, not just for the Bear Brook case, but for the forensic investigations as a whole. For the first time, genetic genealogy had been used to help law enforcement uncover the identity of a criminal suspect. So a lot of people think Golden State Killer was the first time this was used. No. This Terry Rasmussen was the first instance of this being used, and the success of this technique revolutionized forensic investigations, changing the future of cold casework forever. Dr. Ray Ventner would later go on to assist police in solving

• 57:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  even more cases using the same method, including one of the most infamous cases in American history, the identification of the Golden State Killer, Joseph D'Angelo. That piece of shit.

• 57:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  So after Dr. Ray Ventner identified the killer as Terry Rasmussen, investigators began digging into his past, hoping to uncover more about his movements, relationships, and possible victims. They compiled a revised timeline, which provided new insight into his life before he started adopting aliases. Terry Peter Rasmussen was born on December 23rd, 1943, in Colorado. By the mid 1950s, his family had relocated to Phoenix, Arizona. In 1959, he enrolled at North High School in Phoenix, but he dropped out after his sophomore year. In April of 1961, at the age of 17, he enlisted in the US Navy, where he served

• 58:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  as an electrician in a construction unit. During his time in the military, he was stationed at several bases in the western United States and spent time overseas in Okinawa. After six years of service, he was discharged in July of 1967. Sometime between 1967 and 1968, Rasmussen moved to Hawaii where he got married. In 1969, he and his wife relocated to Phoenix, Arizona and welcomed twin daughters that same year. In 1970, the Rasmussen family moved to Redwood City, California, where Terry took a job as an electrician. That year, his son was born, and then in 1972, his daughter was born.

• 58:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  At some point during this period, he and his wife separated temporarily but later reconciled. Around 1973, Rasmussen and his family moved back to Phoenix, but by April of that year, he found himself in trouble with the law. He was arrested by the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office as a fugitive from justice, though the underlying charge remains unclear. Authorities obtained a booking photo from this arrest, which they later released to the public. In June of 1975, Rasmussen was arrested again in Phoenix, this time for aggravated assault. It is believed that his wife and children left him shortly after this arrest. Either in December of 1975 or 1976, he arrived unexpectedly to visit them in Pace in Arizona.

• 59:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  At that time, he was accompanied by an unidentified woman, and during the visit, he claimed he was living at the Casa Del Rey Apartments in Ingleside, Texas. That would be the last time Rasmussen's family ever saw him. After learning this information, authorities were particularly interested in identifying the woman he had been with, as she could have been the mother of the young girl later found murdered in Allentown, but as far as I can tell, they have yet to do that. By June of 1978, Rasmussen was working for the Brown and Root Company in Houston, Texas, still using his real name. At some point that year, he contacted a friend in Arizona and asked for money, telling them he was working on an oil rig in Texas. On September 28, 1978, his divorce was finalized.

• 1:00:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  After that, his whereabouts became unclear. Sometime between 1978 and 1979, Rasmussen surfaced in New Hampshire, where he began working at Wambach Mills in Manchester. It was During this period that he started using the alias Bob Evans. So with this new timeline, investigators had a clearer picture of Rasmussen's movements, but there were still significant gaps, years where his actions were unaccounted for. Authorities suspected that during those missing periods, he had continued his pattern of deception and violence, and based on what they already knew about him, they feared there were likely more victims still waiting to be found. So after this deep dive into Terry Rasmussen's life, police made contact with one of his

• 1:01:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  children from his first marriage. Her name was Diane, and she was working as a records clerk at a police station in Illinois. She hadn't seen her father since she was around six years old, and when officers sat down with her, they laid out the sprawling and horrific story of the man he had become. It didn't take long before the full weight of what she was being told sank in. As the officers described the accusations against her father, she realized an unthinkable truth: he was a serial killer. Diane shared what little she knew about her father. She recalled that her mother had once told her that he burned her brother with cigarettes. She wasn't sure if her mother had fully understood the extent of his violence, but she didn't believe she had known he was capable of murdering women and children.

• 1:01:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  As she tried to process the reality of who her father was, she couldn't shake one thought. She said, quote, "If my mother wouldn't have left my father, it could have been me, would have been me," end quote.

• 1:02:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's amazing to think like how the choices in our life can impact our future, and it may seem trivial at the time, but this this girl's reliving that saying, wow, if my mother had chosen a different path, I may not be with you right now. And that's, I'm sure it's a lot to take in when you hear about it to think, and also the fact that she has to process the information that her father's a serial killer.

• 1:02:34Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I know we've, we've talked about BTK and, and we've talked about Kerry Rosson, who has found a way to turn that same similar story into something positive for the community. But I have to imagine it takes a toll on you every day to think that that's the person responsible for you being here.

• 1:02:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I mean, Lisa would have had a very similar feeling. We've talked about that, where she's like, okay, these people, these nice people were like, hey, you know, we gotta get this little girl away from this dude. Let's see if our daughter can adopt her. And they take her to visit the daughter. And although the, the guy, who whatever name he was going by at that time, he didn't sign the adoption papers. They got her away from him. And this gave him the opportunity to run off without Lisa, because if he had run off with Lisa.

• 1:03:21Derrick Levasseur?

  It wouldn't have ended well.

• 1:03:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23Derrick Levasseur?

  It would not have ended well. That's, I think that's a fair assumption to come to at this point. When he was done with you, he disposed of you.

• 1:03:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, a lot of people said, based on what they know about him, it seemed like he was abusing these children.

• 1:03:35Derrick Levasseur?

  I would, I would venture to say that's probably the case.

• 1:03:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  When they got old enough to start telling their story, to start talking, that's when he would end their lives. Yeah. So in August, police were ready to officially announce that Terry Rasmussen was the man responsible for the Bear Brook murders. They laid out everything they had learned about him, his history of deception, his pattern of abuse and violence. They urged the public to come forward with any information that could help them fill in the remaining gaps. And at this point, authorities had finally uncovered the true identity of the man responsible, but there was still one final, critical piece of the puzzle missing. They still didn't know the names of the four victims he had left in barrels in Bear Brook State Park. After all the years of searching, they were

• 1:04:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  determined to give them back their names. And this is, at the end of the day, ultimately, the most important part of this.

• 1:04:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Agreed. Which is why we do what we do, you know, giving, you're not going to change what happened to them, but they deserve to at least have their names. And I'm, I have to say, I mean, on the surface, great job by the new investigators working this case to use the science and resources available to them at the time, putting their ego aside and saying, Okay, we're not going to be able to solve this. Let's bring in someone who has a specific expertise who could help in this case. And in that case, it was Dr. Barbara Ray Venter, bringing her in, allowing her to do what she does. And not only did it help in this case, but as you mentioned, gone on to help solve many other cases by allowing an outside party to come in

• 1:05:04Derrick Levasseur?

  and do something that you're incapable of doing. So on the surface, great job by law enforcement so far, putting this all together. This is a very intricate case. You're talking a nationwide investigation with different identities, different players, different chess pieces involved, piecing this timeline together to finally identify this monster. And now using, you know, reverse engineering, figuring out who he is and who he may have left in his wake. But like you said, as we go into part three, we have to, we have to end where we started. These four victims in these barrels are how this whole thing came to be. We gotta give them their name back as well.

• 1:05:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Absolutely. And figure out what the relationship was. And it's gonna help us identify the pattern of Terry Rasmussen even more. What kind of victims did he target?

• 1:05:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  What was his MO when dealing with them? How long did he stay with them? And this is gonna help us maybe in the future and help investigators figure out if there's more victims out there who Terry Rasmussen was responsible for ending their lives. So that's what we're here to do. That's what we're gonna talk about. We're gonna finish up with part three next week.

• 1:06:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 1:06:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  But until then, let us know what you think so far about this. I mean, this is very interesting.

• 1:06:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Fascinating case. Never heard of it.

• 1:06:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Uh, didn't look it up beforehand. I knew it was solved because I'd asked you in episode one if it was solved and I just couldn't wait. Um, but it seems so far stretched as far as how are they gonna tie this all together? And to me, it all comes back to one little thing, which I mentioned earlier in this episode is just somebody uploading their data into a, a, a certain forum, a platform that allowed investigators to utilize that information to connect Lisa slash Dawn back to New Hampshire because

• 1:06:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Honestly, as we're sitting here right now, if that data is not uploaded where they can find at least the first cousin, this case ends in California with, within soon because it's going to be a murder, they're going to find out who did it, they're going to put a warrant out for this guy, Bob, Bill, Joe, whatever his name is at that point, and that's going to be its own isolated thing. Lisa will go on with her life, she'll still end up the way she is, which is great, not knowing that's not, that's not even who she really is. But it would have ended there if not for genetic genealogy. So if, if anything we take away from this case, not only the great investigative work that was done, but the impact that you as a listener, as a viewer can have on these cases, because it wasn't the detectives that solved this one. If you really want me to pinpoint it, it were, it

• 1:07:34Derrick Levasseur?

  was Lisa's cousins. One of them uploading the data for whatever their purpose was, and allowing them to connect those dots. That's where it really, that's what it boils down to for me.

• 1:07:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's, it's very, and I love that this is the first case where genetic genealogy was used to identify a perpetrator, right?

• 1:07:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then ever since then, it's been a domino effect where now this is, this is a very, very specific and strong tool in the law enforcement arsenal.

• 1:08:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Like their number one tool at this point.

• 1:08:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  They solve a lot of cases this way. Yeah, exactly. So that's very interesting to kind of know the origin story of that. But we will talk more about the Allentown Four next week. And if you don't have anything else to say, I'll take us out.

• 1:08:17Derrick Levasseur?

  You know what? Take us out.

• 1:08:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. Thank you guys so much for being here. Don't forget to like and subscribe if you're watching on YouTube, follow us on social media and buy our coffee, CriminalCoffeeCo.com.

• 1:08:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, what's the last thing you want to say?

• 1:08:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you so much, Derek, for being here.

• 1:08:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Stay safe out there.

• 1:08:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Stay safe out there.

• 1:08:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Have a good night.

• 1:08:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.