Listener Questions #16

Daniel and Kelly answer questions about snowflake symmetry, flamingo burgers, and iodine protection. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:58Daniel Whiteson?

  Snowflakes are hexagons, and each one is unique. Their amazing symmetry just adds to their mystique.

• 2:05Kelly Weinersmith?

  I've heard flamingos are pink because of their diet. What if I ate a flamingo? Would I turn pink if I tried it?

• 2:13Daniel Whiteson?

  Iodine injections protect from radiation. I saw it on TV, but I don't understand the mechanism. How exactly can that be?

• 2:22Kelly Weinersmith?

  Whatever questions keep you up at night, Daniel and Kelly's answers will make it right. Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

• 2:43Kelly Weinersmith?

  Hello, I'm Kelly Wiener-Smith. I study parasites and space, and I am so excited about our flamingo question today.

• 2:51Daniel Whiteson?

  Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at UC Irvine, and I've never eaten a flamingo.

• 2:56Kelly Weinersmith?

  I haven't either. As we'll see later in the show, we probably ought not to. But so my question for you today, Daniel, so we are recording the day before Google Calendars tells me that it's your birthday.

• 3:08Daniel Whiteson?

  How does Google know that?

• 3:09Kelly Weinersmith?

  I'm actually not sure.

• 3:13Kelly Weinersmith?

  I must have put it in at some point in the past because, you know, I've been co-hosting with you for a while now. But so how do you celebrate birthdays?

• 3:20Daniel Whiteson?

  So yeah, I'm turning 50 tomorrow, which is kind of a big milestone. But I actually don't really celebrate my birthday. I don't feel like it's that special a day. I'm not really that into birthdays and sort of like being on the spot that way. I sort of prefer to fade into the background. And so to counteract that, I've actually been rounding up my age to 50 for a few years now.

• 3:40Kelly Weinersmith?

  Are you serious?

• 3:41Daniel Whiteson?

  Which Katrina is not very excited about, yeah. Especially because when she turned 46, I welcomed her into the Roundup to 50 Club, and she was like, no, thank you.

• 3:50Kelly Weinersmith?

  You can stay there alone, Daniel.

• 3:54Kelly Weinersmith?

  Wow, I'll have to remember that strategy. I also may fade into the background birthday person, but I hadn't thought about the rounding up strategy. And I mean, I think I'm, so I always forget how old I am, but I'm 43.

• 4:09Daniel Whiteson?

  Okay.

• 4:10Kelly Weinersmith?

  Is that right? No, my birthday is in October and it's 2020. I'll be 43 in October. So I'm 42. So it's not quite time for me to round up yet, but I will, I'll get there soon.

• 4:19Daniel Whiteson?

  Well, Katrina tells me it's ridiculous to round up, but I say, hey, look, it's arbitrary to round up to the year. People aren't super precise about how old they are. When you ask them, they don't say, I'm 42 years and seven months and three days. They round up to the year, right? So I think, hey, I just round up to the decade, you know, what's the big deal?

• 4:36Kelly Weinersmith?

  Sure. Yeah, no physicists are always, you know, making broad assumptions about things and rounding. And so you might as well.

• 4:43Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah. Pi is three and Daniel is 50. What's the big deal?

• 4:45Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right. There you go. Well, I hope you have an amazing decade.

• 4:48Daniel Whiteson?

  Thank you.

• 4:49Kelly Weinersmith?

  Arbitrary, though, that milestone may be to you.

• 4:53Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. Well, we're not here to talk about Daniel's birthday. We're here to answer your questions about the nature of the universe. How does it all work? How does it fit together? How can we make it click together in your mind? And so as usual, we invite people to send us their questions. Write to us to [email protected]. We write back to everybody with a response. We either give you the answer or make a joke or say, we don't know. Here's something to read.

• 5:17Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right. Lately, often I've been giving reading suggestions, or if we don't know, we say, we'll find out. And sometimes it becomes a question on a listener questions episode. And today, we have a lot of examples of that.

• 5:29Daniel Whiteson?

  That's right. So let's jump right in. Our first question comes from Zach in Minnesota. Zach has a question about why snowflakes are all different.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  Hey there, extraordinaries. It's winter here in Minnesota and we just got a ton of snow. My dad took a really great picture of a beautifully symmetrical snowflake. I understand why snowflakes tend to form hexagonally, I think, because of the crystallization pattern of water. But I don't understand why snowflakes so often come out looking so perfectly symmetrical. Why should they form exactly the same intricate crystallization on one arm as opposed to the other arm? I know this isn't a universal thing. Some snowflakes aren't symmetrical, but so many are. It just seems unlikely. Is this just because there are so many snowflakes? Or is there something deeper going on?

• 6:22Speaker 04

  Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

• 6:23Kelly Weinersmith?

  Now, Daniel, if you and I were really good at this, we would have saved this for a Christmas episode. But instead, we're going to release it in the middle of the summer.

• 6:31Daniel Whiteson?

  That's when people want snow, right? That's when they're missing it. You know, in the middle of winter, people are like, ugh, don't talk to me about snow. I'm fed up with it.

• 6:38Kelly Weinersmith?

  All right. Well, I guess it depends on where you are on this planet, right? It's winter somewhere. So, okay, this is going to be a really good episode for the Australians if they're into snow.

• 6:48Daniel Whiteson?

  Or if you're sweltering in Texas this summer, listen to this frosty episode about snowflakes.

• 6:53Kelly Weinersmith?

  Amazing. All right, so Daniel, I have to admit that I don't know why each snowflake has a unique shape. Can we start there before we get to why they're symmetrical?

• 7:06Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, I think that is the right direction to start from. This is a really cool question because I think Zach is thinking about how the snowflakes form. And he's wondering like, how can one arm form the same pattern as the arm on the other side? Is there some global force controlling it? And so you're right, we need to think about the symmetry and the diversity of these objects. And snowflakes are really fascinating. And as it turns out, the cutting edge of human understanding of snowflakes doesn't have a complete answer to this question.

• 7:33Kelly Weinersmith?

  What?

• 7:34Daniel Whiteson?

  Snowflakes remain mysterious. Yes, that's right. Fascinating.

• 7:37Kelly Weinersmith?

  There's not enough money in snowflakes, man.

• 7:41Daniel Whiteson?

  But if you go out into a snowstorm and you put out your hand, you'll see snowflakes land on your palm. And you can look at them briefly just before they melt. And you notice they are not all the same. There's an enormous variety of snowflakes from this pattern and that pattern and the other pattern. And, you know, people have known this for a long, long time. There's this famous quote from Thoreau who says, "How full of the creative genius is the air in which these are generated?"

• 8:04Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, beautiful. But the answer is science, Thoreau, it's science.

• 8:08Daniel Whiteson?

  But, you know, he was prescient about this, even though he didn't understand it. The answer is something about the chemistry of air, which we'll get to.

• 8:15Kelly Weinersmith?

  I mean, you said a word I don't like, but let's, let's move on anyway.

• 8:21Daniel Whiteson?

  So your question was about the symmetry. So let's start with that. Like, why do snowflakes form this weird six-pronged pattern anyway? And that does come down to chemistry, how the water molecules themselves bond to form the nexus of the crystal at the core. But let's back up and start with like, how does snow form? Where does it come from? It comes from water freezing in clouds. And the thing to understand about water is, we're all familiar with ice and then liquid water, and of course, water vapor, steam, right? But water has complicated chemistry depending on the pressure. So down at the surface in normal atmospheric pressure, water has those three phases. But if you go up into the upper atmosphere, or out into space, for example, where pressure is very, very low, there is no liquid water.

• 9:05Daniel Whiteson?

  There's only solid and gas. And so if you have solid water and you heat it up, you don't get liquid water out in space, you get vapor. It goes directly from solid to gas. So there aren't three phases everywhere. You can look up this phase diagram of water to learn more. And that's going to turn out to be key. So what happens is you have the atmosphere and there's warm, moist air that gets pushed upward when it hits a front. And that water condenses into droplets. So the air is also filled with like tiny dust particles. And each of those like nucleate a tiny little droplet. And that's what a cloud is. Cloud is all these water droplets that have been nucleated as warm, moist air has gone up. And the water sort of comes out of the solution of the air.

• 9:46Kelly Weinersmith?

  And enucleated just means it's like surrounding the piece of dust?

• 9:50Daniel Whiteson?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:51Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 9:51Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, like you might ask, why do you get a water droplet here and not one centimeter or one micron over? Like, why do they form in where they form and not somewhere else? The answer is dust. It's sort of like the way in the early universe, we had like slight over densities in the plasma, and that's what gravity grabbed on to to nucleate the formation of what turned into galaxies and stuff like, why do galaxies form here and there? There has to be a reason it starts. And in the case of water droplets, it's tiny particles of dust.

• 10:18Kelly Weinersmith?

  I heard it was also tiny bacteria that are in the atmosphere. Is that true? Are there bacteria around there forming snowflakes?

• 10:26Daniel Whiteson?

  There are bacteria out there. And dust is a very broad term. It includes lots of tiny stuff, you know, the way like sand does. And if you zoom in on it, there's an amazing variety of stuff in the atmosphere. We just call it dust. We could have a whole another episode about like, what is dust?

• 10:41Kelly Weinersmith?

  Sure. That sounds fascinating.

• 10:44Daniel Whiteson?

  Anyway, you put all these together, you have a cloud. A cloud is like a million tons of water hanging there in the air, sort of amazing. So now temperatures drop, right? And some of those droplets freeze, some of them evaporate, become vapor. But some of them freeze and you get a little crystal. And so here's where the chemistry comes in. You have this water molecule, which is like an oxygen and two hydrogens. And the two hydrogens come off at an angle, right? It's not like a line where you have hydrogen, oxygen, hydrogen. If you've seen like a little drawing of a water molecule, you know, the hydrogen's like pulled close together, the angle between them is like 104 degrees or something. And so when these things come together to make a crystal, they click together, sort of like Lego bricks, right? There's bonds between them and that makes a little hexagon.

• 11:28Daniel Whiteson?

  So you link up six water molecules, the oxygens are like the vertices on a hexagon. And then the bond between the oxygen and one hydrogen is like the edge of that hexagon. And then there are six hydrogen molecules sort of sticking out. But it makes this ring, this hexagonal ring. And then you just keep adding water molecules and it builds out and out and out and you get a hexagonal crystal.

• 11:49Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay, so why do you get six in the center? Is that just available binding sites?

• 11:54Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, I think it's because...

• 11:56Kelly Weinersmith?

  Chemistry, man.

• 12:00Daniel Whiteson?

  You get six because of the angle. So imagine your oxygen atom and it has two hydrogens coming off and it's 100 degrees between them, which means it's like 260 degrees on the other side, right? So the other water molecule comes in with its hydrogen, it comes around the back on that big open space and it splits that in half.

• 12:17Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 12:18Daniel Whiteson?

  And that's what determines the angle. So half of 260, you get about 130. And that's the angle there that you build up to make the hexagons.

• 12:25Kelly Weinersmith?

  Got it. Okay, I remember in organic chemistry, there's a reaction called a backside attack and the biologists in that class, we could not get over that. Anyway, all right, moving on.

• 12:35Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, so initially you have this tiny, tiny crystal, it's like microns wide. And by the way, if you are out chopping and you see something called hexagonal water, that's a scam. It's not better for you, it's just pseudoscience supplemental nonsense.

• 12:50Kelly Weinersmith?

  I've never heard of that. What are they claiming?

• 12:52Daniel Whiteson?

  I don't know. I don't even want to give them more airtime.

• 12:55Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay, save your money, people.

• 12:57Daniel Whiteson?

  Exactly.

• 12:59Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. So what we're talking about so far is just the core of the snowflake, right? It's this hexagonal crystal, and that can require like a million of these droplets.

• 13:07Kelly Weinersmith?

  Wow.

• 13:07Daniel Whiteson?

  You have a tiny number of snowflakes compared to the number of droplets. It really takes a lot of droplets to make one snowflake.

• 13:13Kelly Weinersmith?

  So why doesn't the snowflake just become infinite? Why at some point does it stop accumulating more waters?

• 13:18Daniel Whiteson?

  Well, it has limited time in the cloud. So what happens next is you have this seeded crystal, which blows around inside the cloud accumulating more and more, and then eventually gets so heavy that it drops.

• 13:29Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 13:30Daniel Whiteson?

  Right? And so it has a limited time in the cloud. Otherwise, it would form like a cloud-sized crystal, which would be awesome. And maybe that happens on some alien planet.

• 13:39Kelly Weinersmith?

  But then it falls on your head, and that would be too much.

• 13:42Daniel Whiteson?

  So we're set up now to answer Zach's question, right? We start with this crystal, and we understand why it's a hexagon. But then why does it form six identical arms, each of which are the same on one crystal, but different from all the other crystals, right? And when I was first reading about this, my hypothesis was maybe it's some like impurity in the crystal, where like something has happened at the core, which then determines how it grows outwards, right? You need something coordinating across the arms. But it turns out, it's not that at all. And we know that because of amazing experiments done by a physicist, Ukihiro Nakaya, in Hokkaido in Japan in the 1930s. He was really curious about snowflakes. He just like went for walks and saw snowflakes, and he asked the same question, but he wanted

• 14:25Daniel Whiteson?

  to figure it out. He did all these experiments. So he replicated the conditions of a cloud in the lab.

• 14:30Kelly Weinersmith?

  Wow.

• 14:30Daniel Whiteson?

  And what he saw was that the formation of the crystal beyond the initial seed depends extremely sensitively on the temperature and on the density of water vapor. So for example, you can get these like weird long needles that form, and you crank up the temperature a little bit, and you get thin plates, or you get dendrites, or you get another formation. You crank it up another little bit, and you get back to needles or back to columns. And so there's a lot of really complicated like chemistry and solid state physics that's happening there, where these crystals are forming in certain patterns, again, super duper sensitive to the density and the temperature.

• 15:07Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay, I'm following you there, but I still feel like there's a jump to make.

• 15:11Daniel Whiteson?

  Yes.

• 15:11Kelly Weinersmith?

  To hit symmetry.

• 15:12Daniel Whiteson?

  So now, start with your core of your crystal, right?

• 15:15Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 15:15Daniel Whiteson?

  Your core of your crystal is some hexagon. Now, it's going to blow through the cloud. The cloud is not uniform in density and temperature. There are regions of higher density, there are regions of lower density, there are colder and warmer regions. As that snowflake blows through the cloud, its crystals grow depending on the density and temperature it's experiencing moment to moment. So like, right now, it grows in this certain pattern. Oh, then the density drops, now it's going to make needles. Oh, now the density goes up. Oh, now it's back to making these flat things. And so that's what controls the growth of each of the arms. And because all of the arms experience the same unique path through the cloud, which gives it a unique temperature and density history, that's why every snowflake is different.

• 15:56Daniel Whiteson?

  If two snowflakes had exactly the same trajectory through the cloud, you would expect them to be exactly the same. And that's probably true, but impossible to test, right? So we think the variety of snowflakes comes from their individual experience through the temperature and density fluctuations in the cloud, which control their growth. And that also explains why they're the same on an individual snowflake. Because on an individual snowflake, all the arms have the same experience, the same history through the density and the temperature. So it's really kind of an awesome, like, probe through the cloud.

• 16:29Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's amazing. Yeah, and beautiful, and, and I'm trying to pull together like the Hallmark version, like, we're all a result of the unique paths that we take? Anyway, very cool.

• 16:39Daniel Whiteson?

  It's very cool, and it's sort of amazing and lucky, and it's another example of how amazing complexity emerges in our world. You know, this could have been totally boring. It could have been that snowflakes all just form hexagons and then drop, and they're all the same. And like, yeah, hexagons are cool, but because they're so sensitive to density and temperature, we get this incredible variety of beautiful forms. It amazes me, it makes me wonder about that same philosophical question we talked about before, like, why do we think that this kind of stuff is beautiful? Are we programmed to do it somehow? Is it because we evolved on this planet? Or is it just something deep about being alive and aware in the universe? Like, do aliens find their ugly planet beautiful also?

• 17:17Kelly Weinersmith?

  Well, it is now the peak heat and humid period in Virginia, so I am looking forward to seeing the snow. As you said, let's see if Zach feels satisfied with this unique answer.

• 17:29Speaker 05

  Hi, Daniel and Kelly. Thank you for the beautiful answer to my question about these beautiful crystals, especially since it meant wading into a bit of chemistry to do so. I too was surprised that the crystal shape was not intrinsic to the nucleation dust, but rather a kind of record of the snowflake experience as it drifts through its cloud. It makes me wonder if there are other polar molecules that could form snowflakes with other basic patterns instead of hexagons, like squares or triangles, or if there would be some molecules that would tend to make 3D structures instead of planar ones. Anyhow, on a personal note, my son was born just a week ago, and you have me smiling, thinking about how he's going to gather experiences as he grows to become something unique and beautiful as well. Thanks again, guys.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers, producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of the group Sheik. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel.

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• 20:56Kelly Weinersmith?

  All right, Daniel, this is quite possibly the most important question we've ever answered on the show.

• 21:02Daniel Whiteson?

  Because it determines what you're going to have for your birthday dinner?

• 21:04Kelly Weinersmith?

  Maybe, maybe. And also it's biology, so that automatically puts it in the top 50%.

• 21:11Kelly Weinersmith?

  Let's enjoy this amazing question from Bernard in Munich.

• 21:15Speaker 10

  Hi, Daniel and Kelly. This is Bernhard from Munich in Germany. I understand that flamingos are pink because of their diet, but is the pink color just in their feathers or also in their flesh? And could I become pink if I would start eating flamingos instead of my usual vegetarian food? Love your show. Bye.

• 21:33Kelly Weinersmith?

  Incredible.

• 21:36Daniel Whiteson?

  How seriously do you think Bernard is considering abandoning his vegetarianism? Do we have a weighty responsibility here?

• 21:42Kelly Weinersmith?

  You know, so I was reading about the frequency at which people drop vegetarianism. And it is pretty high. I think it's something like 60 to 75% of the people who become vegetarians will not stay vegetarians. But I really doubt that he's going to drop his vegetarianism for flamingos. And, and not least of all, because it would be very hard for him to get his hands on a flamingo.

• 22:07Daniel Whiteson?

  Well, your husband is a dedicated vegetarian, isn't he?

• 22:09Kelly Weinersmith?

  He is, yeah. He's been a vegetarian for 20 years. And I think the worst thing that I have done to him during our relationship is I once left a few pounds of turducken in his fridge when we were dating and I forgot it was there. And so he found, what is it, a turkey inside of a duck, inside of a chicken.

• 22:28Daniel Whiteson?

  I think you have that backwards, but it doesn't matter.

• 22:29Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, yeah, sorry. Chicken inside, you were right. Anyway, in his refrigerator. And he was pretty grossed out. Anyway, sorry, honey.

• 22:37Daniel Whiteson?

  Good thing there wasn't a flamingo in there as well.

• 22:38Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right. That's right. I, we did look up, somebody had managed to get like 24 creatures inside of each other and that was the max, but.

• 22:45Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. Well, let's get an answer to Bernard's question. Tell us from the beginning, why are flamingos pink anyway?

• 22:51Kelly Weinersmith?

  Right. All right. So there are actually six different species of flamingos and they are all rose colored. They get their color through their diets. And so they eat algae, they eat crustaceans, and these organisms make their own colors called carotenoids. So they have pigments, but they aren't necessarily pink. So some organisms have ways of metabolizing carotenoids to get them to be particular colors. And so the way that the flamingos metabolize the carotenoids that they get from their food turns them pink.

• 23:21Daniel Whiteson?

  So metabolize means does chemistry on them?

• 23:24Kelly Weinersmith?

  Does chemistry.

• 23:25Daniel Whiteson?

  And basically changes their color. So the things they eat are not pink, but they eat this stuff and the stuff has something in it and they do chemistry inside and that makes them pink. Is that right?

• 23:35Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right. Yep. So they're filter feeders. And so they're eating lots and lots of tiny little things with carotenoids that they turn pink.

• 23:41Daniel Whiteson?

  And is it good for the flamingos to be pink? Do they care? Is it helpful in some way? Or is it just like a weird oddity in our universe?

• 23:48Kelly Weinersmith?

  There's some debates over why they're pink, but it does seem that being pink is an indicator of how healthy you are. So because they get the pink from their diet, if you are super extra pink. That is a great way of showing people.

• 24:02Daniel Whiteson?

  That's like a flamingo Valentine card.

• 24:04Kelly Weinersmith?

  It is.

• 24:04Daniel Whiteson?

  To my extra super pinker.

• 24:06Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right, something like that, yeah. So, so if you are like a super pink dude, then you are showing that you've got the best territory with the best food and you're able to get loads of food. So you'd probably be able to get loads of food for your offspring. And so it's sort of an indicator of quality that is honest because it's showing you essentially that they've been able to get a lot of food. So anyway, it's, it's a signal for them to communicate with other flamingos.

• 24:30Daniel Whiteson?

  And if you're a flamingo listening to this podcast, you're now also getting dating advice.

• 24:35Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right. There you go. And the flamingos also do pretty cool dances. And so like buy good outfits and learn to dance. You're welcome.

• 24:44Kelly Weinersmith?

  But the babies are actually not pink when they're born.

• 24:46Daniel Whiteson?

  Okay, is that because they haven't eaten the stuff yet?

• 24:49Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's exactly right. Yeah, they are dull colors. And then eventually they'll become pink when they get it from their diet. I didn't know any of this. I learned it from doing a little bit of research, but what I really did for this question was call in an old friend of mine who is an expert. So I called my friend, well, and by call, I mean I contacted on Facebook Messenger, my friend Caitlin Kite, who in 2015 released a book called Flamingos about

• 25:16Kelly Weinersmith?

  flamingos.

• 25:17Daniel Whiteson?

  Ooh, shocker.

• 25:18Kelly Weinersmith?

  And I shared the question with her and she was sort of appalled.

• 25:25Daniel Whiteson?

  At the idea of eating baby flamingos?

• 25:27Kelly Weinersmith?

  You know, I think you've made Bernard out to be a little bit worse than, that he didn't say he was gonna eat baby flamingos in particular. And they're not pink, so you know, that wouldn't make sense.

• 25:37Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, yeah, okay. Eat the old grandpa flamingos, Bernard, yeah.

• 25:40Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right, that's right. No, the robust flamingos with good territories.

• 25:44Daniel Whiteson?

  Oh, yes, exactly.

• 25:45Kelly Weinersmith?

  Anyway, so she, she said, you know, what a question. And she, her understanding was that carotenoids can permeate lots of stuff. For example, the egg yolks are richly colored and they have reddish, what's called crop milk. And so this is essentially birds often feed their babies by eating food and then throwing it up into the baby's mouth and they call that milk.

• 26:05Daniel Whiteson?

  Oh, man.

• 26:05Kelly Weinersmith?

  Ew.

• 26:06Daniel Whiteson?

  Well, hey, look, if they're gonna make milk out of oats and almonds and call that stuff. Milk, then hey, why not?

• 26:11Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yes, why not?

• 26:11Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 26:12Kelly Weinersmith?

  And so she noted that part of how they get that coloration isn't just by actually having it in their feathers, but they extract the carotenoids, they process the carotenoids, and then they have a gland. And they can extract this like oil from the gland and then rub it on their feathers. And it makes their feathers even pinker.

• 26:30Daniel Whiteson?

  Wow.

• 26:31Kelly Weinersmith?

  And so her hypothesis is that the pink is only skin deep. And so you wouldn't end up with pink mussels. So Bernard couldn't turn pink by eating the pink mussels. But when she was researching flamingos, her book, she reached out to Paul Rose, who is now a colleague of hers at the University of Exeter.

• 26:50Daniel Whiteson?

  All right.

• 26:50Kelly Weinersmith?

  Paul works on flamingos and has dissected some. So she was like, you know what? Let's connect you to another expert. So this next trip in the journey brought me to Paul.

• 27:00Daniel Whiteson?

  Who maybe has actually seen a flamingo fillet.

• 27:02Kelly Weinersmith?

  Who has in fact filleted flamingos. And so here is Paul's answer. All of a flamingo's soft tissues, integument and feathers are stained by carotenoids from their diets. Okay, so right there, we know they are pink.

• 27:16Daniel Whiteson?

  Oh, wow.

• 27:16Kelly Weinersmith?

  The base carotenoid ingested by the flamingo from crustaceans, algae or cyanobacteria is metabolized within their liver to form a range of pigments that create pink, orange, red, yellow and purple hues.

• 27:28Daniel Whiteson?

  Wow, the whole rainbow.

• 27:30Kelly Weinersmith?

  The whole rainbow. As a flamingo ages, you see a saturation of their skin, fat and integument with carotenoids. So the internal organs of the bird can look quite bright. Okay, so Caitlin was right that they can wipe this pink oil to make them more pink. But they are all pink on the inside, which is maybe good news for Bernard, but wait.

• 27:51Daniel Whiteson?

  Now we're leaning towards eating the flamingo meats, right?

• 27:54Kelly Weinersmith?

  Right, that's right. That's where we are right now.

• 27:56Daniel Whiteson?

  All right.

• 27:57Kelly Weinersmith?

  I know. So Paul goes on to say, we know that the greater flamingo uses carotenoid saturated preen oil to enhance the color of its plumage during breeding season. But this has yet to be described in the other species, although it's highly likely they too have saturated preen oil. Okay, so that's the oil stuff we already talked about. Here's the kicker. If you ate a flamingo, that's right, we made a professional scientist go here. If you ate a flamingo, you would not turn pink as we are unable to metabolize carotinoids in the same way as the birds do. You would likely die, though, as they consume some very noxious blue-green algae that are often neurotoxic.

• 28:37Daniel Whiteson?

  Wow.

• 28:38Kelly Weinersmith?

  So Bernard, Bernard, you, you've been misled. This is not a good idea. Do not eat the flamingos. You will not turn pink and you might die.

• 28:50Daniel Whiteson?

  Go have a nice eggplant dish or some portabellos if you need umami, but flamingos do not seem to be something that you should be eating.

• 28:58Kelly Weinersmith?

  Leave those beautiful birds alone, Bernard.

• 29:02Kelly Weinersmith?

  All right, so let's go ahead and see if we've convinced Bernard, whose name I hope I've said correctly because I've said it many times now. Let's go ahead and see what he has to say and if we've convinced him to not raid the local zoo in search of flamingos.

• 29:16Speaker 10

  Thanks, Kelly and Daniel, for all the insights, both from your personal life and zoology. It was not only an interesting and most useful answer, but the journey there also helped me to get rid of some misconceptions I had. I'm quite relieved that I can stick to my lifestyle and so is the very attractive flamingo community here in the Munich Zoo.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Hey, I'm Nile Rodgers, producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of the group Sheik. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel.

• 30:19Speaker 06

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. Regardless of how everyone else buys into this, I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 30:34Speaker 07

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience. Whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her, or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 31:04Speaker 08

  Cash Flow Crunch, OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 31:35Speaker 11

  Hey, what's up? This is Kelvin Washington from The I Couple with Rob Parker and Kelvin Washington. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra. Two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shoptoyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 32:23Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, we're back and we are answering questions from listeners like you. If you have a question about the nature of the universe, whether you should have a flamingo burger, or how to protect yourself from nuclear fallout, please write to us. We love answering your questions. And this last question comes from a longtime listener who's asked us lots and lots of questions over the years. This is a question from Petri in Waterloo.

• 32:45Kelly Weinersmith?

  Petri always asks fantastic questions and provides fantastic answers for our Person on the Streets responses at the beginning of some of our episodes. And you too can share your responses if you write us at [email protected].

• 33:01Speaker 12

  Hi, Daniel and Kelly. This is Petri from Waterloo, Canada, and I have a question that I think relates to the both of you. I was watching some science fiction recently. In the show, the characters were exposed to what they called hard radiation. To keep themselves alive, they injected themselves with iodine. So my question is this: From a particle physics perspective, what is hard radiation? And what role, if any, would iodine play in protecting us from it? From a biology perspective, how does radiation exposure cause injury? And what is happening physiologically? How can damage at the molecular level cause issues at the organ level? Thank you very much.

• 33:41Daniel Whiteson?

  I love this question because it's something you see in science fiction and you hear in popular science all the time. And hey, that might actually be important these days. You never know what's gonna happen.

• 33:52Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah.

• 33:52Daniel Whiteson?

  So it's important that people are well informed.

• 33:55Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yes, it is, especially with all of this chat about moving to Mars. If you could just take iodine and radiation would not be a problem anymore, we wouldn't have to live underground. So there's a lot hanging on this answer being correct.

• 34:08Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, so Petri's first question is, what is hard radiation exactly? And the way you should think about radiation is basically like tiny little bullets. These are high-energy particles. They can be photons, they can be electrons, they can be helium nuclei, they can be protons, they can be anything essentially. But they are high-energy particles and some of them penetrate into your body more deeply. Some of them absorb on the surface. We had an episode recently about the different kinds of radiation being used to treat cancer. And so like X-rays versus electrons versus protons all have a different deposition pattern. But basically, all of them tear through your body, deposit some energy and do a bunch of damage. And so you don't want radiation in your body unless, of course, you're trying to kill

• 34:52Daniel Whiteson?

  a cancer tumor, in which case you want to aim it very, very tightly so that it does damage to the cancer tumor and not to something important like your spleen.

• 35:00Kelly Weinersmith?

  Very delicate process, yes.

• 35:02Daniel Whiteson?

  And radiation could hurt you both from the outside. If there's like radioactive decays happening around you, like you're standing next to plutonium or something, and also inside you. If you ingest something, it can do its radioactive thing while inside you. It's like bringing little guns inside you and shooting. So this is the way like the Russian regime likes to kill people. You know, put like polonium or something in their coffee. They drink it, it's not part of your body and those polonium atoms are now decaying inside you, creating radiation that shoots out from within you. So that's pretty bad.

• 35:36Kelly Weinersmith?

  It was Britain, so it was tea, right? Not coffee?

• 35:38Daniel Whiteson?

  Oh, was it tea? Yes, all right. So be careful. If you're all out there enjoying your tea, Kelly just ruined it for you.

• 35:44Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, drink coffee instead.

• 35:47Kelly Weinersmith?

  Problem solved.

• 35:49Daniel Whiteson?

  And it is really quite dangerous because these metals can be very, very hard to get out of your system. So it really can be like a death sentence if you get this stuff inside you. It's really terrible. And there's really horrible stories about people putting radioactive elements in like other people's coffee in the lab when they're competing with them and like, yeah, really, really bad stuff.

• 36:08Kelly Weinersmith?

  That was a physicist, right? I'm guessing.

• 36:10Daniel Whiteson?

  I think it was a chemist. I think it was a chemist. I don't want to slander anyone, but probably a chemist.

• 36:15Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, that makes sense.

• 36:18Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. So that's what radiation is. It's energetic particles tearing through you, depositing energy, probably breaking up your DNA, rupturing cell walls, all kinds of bad stuff. And you know, radiation is all around us. We are surrounded by radiation. There's radiation from peanut butter. There's radiation from bananas. There's radiation from the ground. There's radiation from the skies. Cosmic rays hit the atmosphere and decaying to muons, which tear through you. There's neutrinos passing right through you. Not all of it hurts you. Some of it goes right through you. And a certain level is just sort of like what we've evolved to withstand. And it's important as part of like mutation. The reason my son is better looking than I am and faster than I am is maybe because of cosmic ray mutations. I can't explain it any other way.

• 36:59Kelly Weinersmith?

  I think it's Katrina's genes is what it is.

• 37:02Daniel Whiteson?

  I think maybe she just cloned herself in the lab. I don't think I was involved at all. No, I love that kid. And I hope he got the best of me. Anyway, cosmic ray mutations are important in creating new opportunities and trying new stuff in the next generation. So it's not like all radiation bad, right? It's like a lot of things. It's too much radiation is bad.

• 37:24Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah. I mean, even a little bit of radiation could cause a bad mutation. I think that, you know, the probability that you get a mutation that makes things better as opposed to makes a neutral or a worse change is pretty low.

• 37:34Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 37:35Kelly Weinersmith?

  So I think in general, you want to protect yourself from too much radiation.

• 37:38Daniel Whiteson?

  Yes. Yeah. Yes. No, I was thinking more globally on a philosophical scale. Like if you could go back and shield the earth from all radiation from space a few billion years ago, what would the earth look like now? We don't know. It might have a lot less diversity on it. We might not be here. And so radiation plays a role in evolution. But yeah, you should never choose radiation. It's not like a little bit is good for you and a lot of it is bad for you.

• 38:03Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, right. And our bodies have ways of trying to fix the damage that radiation causes.

• 38:08Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 38:09Kelly Weinersmith?

  But anyway, so you would not want to be living on the surface of Mars without any protection from radiation.

• 38:13Daniel Whiteson?

  Exactly. No, I would want to bring a lot of flamingos with me to form like a shield, you know, like a dome of flamingos between me and the radioactive source.

• 38:22Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, no. And then you have your food source also. And it's very convenient. But I'm not joining your settlement, Daniel.

• 38:29Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. So the lore is that iodine can protect you. And people say you should take iodine if there's been a nuclear disaster or whatever. So what are we talking about here? Well, iodine is something that your body needs, but doesn't produce, and it absorbs it as you eat it. So there's like trace amounts in food and water, and you need it for all sorts of chemistry that's happening in your body. And so you take it in as you eat it or drink it or whatever. So your body absorbs it, and a lot of it ends up in your thyroid, because that's the part of your body that needs iodine. And a problem is that a lot of nuclear disasters can create radioactive iodine. So for example, iodine 131 and iodine 133. Iodine 131 is a major fission

• 39:08Daniel Whiteson?

  product for uranium and plutonium. So like Fukushima and Chernobyl, there's a lot of iodine 131 produced. It's like 3% of the total fission products by weight are iodine 131. And iodine 131 is radioactive. Half-life is like eight days, and it shoots off an energetic electron or positron, depending on the charges. And you end up with photons. It decays into a radioactive isotope of xenon, which then decays again, emitting another gamma particle. And so basically, if you have this around, your body's going to take it in, because your body takes in iodine and stores it, because it needs it. And if there's iodine 131 around, your body's going to take that in and store it. Now, it's going to be inside you, doing its radioactive thing, which is bad.

• 39:51Kelly Weinersmith?

  And so we're talking about one kind of radiation, and there's lots of kinds of radiation. So we are only really honing in on when iodine causes thyroid cancer.

• 40:02Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah. So you can take iodine, and the theory is that if you take good, normal, non-radioactive iodine, you'll fill up on iodine. And then if radioactive iodine comes into your system, your body won't store it, and it won't keep it in your thyroid, which would cause you thyroid cancer. But having iodine in your body doesn't protect you against radiation from the outside or other kinds of things you might absorb. You can't just like take iodine and then have a snack of plutonium and be fine, for example. Or stand in front of an X-ray machine and then be like ping, ping, ping. This doesn't bother me. There's no protection against radiation. It's not like it builds a shield, or prevents damage, or does anything like that. The only

• 40:43Daniel Whiteson?

  thing eating iodine can do is prevent your body from absorbing radioactive iodine. So you just make sure you're filled up on iodine.

• 40:50Kelly Weinersmith?

  So like if the Russians are after you, you can't be safe just because every morning you take an iodine pill?

• 40:56Daniel Whiteson?

  That's right. 007 does not fill up on iodine to protect himself from being poisoned by the Russians.

• 41:02Kelly Weinersmith?

  If only it were that easy.

• 41:03Daniel Whiteson?

  But it is true, right, that if you are filled up on normal, good iodine, you are protected against absorbing bad radioactive iodine. So it's not a complete protection against all radiation, but it does prevent you from absorbing bad iodine, which would give you thyroid cancer in the future, and that would be bad. And so like Germany's Federal Ministry for the Environment says iodine supplements can help after a nuclear power plant accident in a radius of about 100 kilometers around. So like, it's not nothing. It can protect you. And any protection you have is good protection, right? But you should know also that your thyroid doesn't store iodine for very long. So you need to have taken it very recently, right? So experts say the iodine block only has a chance

• 41:48Daniel Whiteson?

  of helping if the good iodine is taken just before contact with radioactive iodine. And also be careful, too much iodine, bad for you, right? Like lots of things, it becomes poison. So it's complicated, right? Yes, it can protect you from absorbing bad radioactive iodine if you have taken it just before the radioactive iodine shows up, and you didn't take too much, but it doesn't protect you against basically any other form of radiation.

• 42:13Kelly Weinersmith?

  Boo.

• 42:14Daniel Whiteson?

  Including radioactive iodine that decays just outside your body and shoots its little radioactive bullets inside you.

• 42:20Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, my goodness. What a pain in the rear end. So you should take the German Federal Ministry's advice. You should take your iodine, but while you're taking it, you should be heading out of that 100-kilometer radius and get out of there as soon as you can.

• 42:33Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, exactly. And so like, there's a scene I remember on this show, For All Mankind, which in general is great and gets the science right, where they're gonna have to walk on the surface of the moon and be exposed to radiation and like, take iodine.

• 42:45Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh.

• 42:45Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, right. It's not gonna prevent you from being shredded by cosmic rays, et cetera, et cetera. So anybody living on the moon right now, be very, very careful.

• 42:56Kelly Weinersmith?

  You're going too far in the other direction. I was talking to some people the other day who don't think Americans have landed on the moon. So anyway, there's, there's none of us up there right now.

• 43:08Daniel Whiteson?

  Well, there was some news segment recently where an American politician, I won't name him, said he had recently spoken to an American astronaut on the moon. He just misspoke. He meant somebody in the space station, but the internet went crazy with theories about like, oh, he's just revealed the fact that we have a secret moon base and that's where you're talking to the aliens and the internet. Ooh, I love you, the internet, but sometimes you're crazy.

• 43:32Kelly Weinersmith?

  I'm so glad I'm not a politician. Every once in a while, they've said like little slips and the internet has gone crazy. And I'm like, man, the number of times I slip up in a day is colossal. I can't imagine being on the hook for every word that I said.

• 43:43Daniel Whiteson?

  Did you hear that time recently, some politician said, we now have technology that allows us to control space and time, by which he probably meant like, we can make phone calls and we can travel around the earth.

• 43:54Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah.

• 43:54Daniel Whiteson?

  But the internet was like, see, they make wormholes.

• 43:58Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh.

• 44:01Daniel Whiteson?

  Anyway, the internet, if you have questions about what the American government can and cannot do, please write to us. We're happy to talk to you about it to give us answers. I actually did get a phone call once from a US congressperson who heard some of these crazy internet theories and he's a listener to the podcast and he called me up and he's like, hey, tell me, is any of this real physics? And we had a great conversation about it, even though he and I would not vote the same way on basically any political issue, we came together to talk about physics. And so I like to believe physics is the great uniter. We all want to understand the universe and we can all talk calmly and productively about what we do and don't know about it.

• 44:36Kelly Weinersmith?

  And we are all squishy meatbags. So biology brings us together as well. And so I am also always available to answer science questions to anyone of any political stripe who has them.

• 44:46Daniel Whiteson?

  That's right. Are you a pink meatbag? Do you want to become a pink meatbag? Kelly has got you covered.

• 44:51Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right. That's right. Doesn't matter what country you're from, send us your meatbag questions.

• 44:56Daniel Whiteson?

  We really do want to hear from you. So send us questions to [email protected]. And in the meantime, think deeply about the universe, ruminate on how it all works and what we do and do not understand. Thanks for listening. Join us next time.

• 45:10Kelly Weinersmith?

  We look forward to hearing from you.

• 45:11Speaker 12

  Hi, Daniel and Kelly. Thank you for answering my question on the podcast. It makes perfect sense that an individual would not want to be low on iodine when there's an unstable isotope present in the environment. And it clearly does not provide protection against all types of radiation exposure like it is sometimes portrayed in the media. Keep up the great work. Thank you again for your answer and for the great podcast.

• 45:43Kelly Weinersmith?

  Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We would love to hear from you.

• 45:48Daniel Whiteson?

  We really would. We want to know what questions you have about this extraordinary universe.

• 45:54Kelly Weinersmith?

  We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions for future shows. If you contact us, we will get back to you.

• 46:01Daniel Whiteson?

  We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us at questions at danielandkelly.org.

• 46:07Kelly Weinersmith?

  Or you can find us on social media. We have accounts on X, Instagram, Blue Sky, and on all of those platforms, you can find us at D and K Universe.

• 46:17Daniel Whiteson?

  Don't be shy. Write to us.

• 46:21Speaker 13

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• 46:48Speaker 08

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• 47:18Speaker 11

  Hey, what's up? This is Kelvin Washington from The I Couple with Rob Parker and Kelvin Washington. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra. Toyota's longest lasting trucks combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which can mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 47:56Speaker 00

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 48:28Kelly Weinersmith?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.