Why Great Leaders Make People Feel Like They Matter | Adrian Gostick - EP 785

In this episode, John R. Miles sits down with bestselling author and workplace culture expert Adrian Gostick to explore why feeling valued is one of the most powerful drivers of engagement, resilience, innovation, and performance.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John R. Miles?

  Coming up next on Passion Struck.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  We're all living right now in these uncertain worlds and you can't take that away from people. You can't make the world the simple, easy to understand place anymore. We're living in VUCA, right? Volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity. That's our borderline place right now. That's the baseline. And so with that though, you don't have to amp things up. You don't have to create more pressure. I was in one big Fortune 500, big brand. And one of the employees told me, he says, working here, he says, they have this description that a gun is placed in your back when you start and the trigger is pulled. If you stop sprinting, the bullet will get you.

• 0:41John R. Miles?

  Welcome to Passion Struck. I'm your host, John Miles. This is the show where we explore the art of human flourishing and what it truly means to live like it matters. Each week I sit down with changemakers, creators, scientists, and everyday heroes to decode the human experience and uncover the tools that help us lead with meaning, heal what hurts, and pursue the fullest expression of who we're capable of becoming. Whether you're designing your future, developing as a leader, or seeking deeper alignment in your life, this show is your invitation to grow with purpose and act with intention. Because the secret to a life of deep purpose, connection, and impact is choosing to live like you matter.

• 1:29John R. Miles?

  Hello friends and welcome back to episode 785 of Passion Struck. I want you to think about the best leader you've ever worked for. What made them unforgettable? It probably wasn't their title. It wasn't the strategy they created. It wasn't even the results they achieved. It was the way they made people feel. Maybe they noticed your effort when no one else did. Maybe they challenged you to grow. Maybe they made you feel like your contribution genuinely mattered. In our last episode on Tuesday, Spencer West challenged us to stop living according to identities shaped by other people's expectations and instead embrace who we truly are. Today, we're taking

• 2:10John R. Miles?

  The next step, because once we begin showing up as our authentic selves, we all want the same thing, to be part of places where that authenticity is recognized, appreciated, and allowed to flourish. My guest today is Adrian Gostick. Adrian is one of the world's foremost authorities on leadership, workplace culture, and employee engagement. He's the bestselling co-author of The Carrot Principle: All In, Leading with Gratitude, and Anxiety at Work. For decades, he's studied what separates organizations where people simply work from organizations where people truly thrive. What I love about Adrian's work is that it consistently comes back to something profoundly

• 2:53John R. Miles?

  human: recognition, gratitude, purpose, empathy. Not as soft skills, but as the very foundation of extraordinary leadership. In today's conversation, Adrian and I explore why so many leaders unintentionally create cultures of fear, why appreciation is one of the most underutilized tools in leadership, how empathy has become an essential competency in today's workplace, and why the simple act of helping people feel seen can transform not only performance, but lives. If this month's Connection Crisis Series has taught us anything, it's that people don't flourish because they're managed well. They flourish because they know they matter.

• 3:33John R. Miles?

  Before we dive in, if today's episode resonates with you, please share it with a leader, colleague, or someone who's made a difference in your own life. And if you haven't already, leaving a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify helps us continue bringing these conversations to millions of people around the world. You can also download today's companion workbook and reflection guide completely free at ignitedlife.net. And don't forget to check out our channels on YouTube. Now, let's dive in with Adrian Gostick. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life that matters. Now, let that journey begin.

• 4:14John R. Miles?

  I am absolutely thrilled and honored today to welcome Adrian Gostick to Passion Struck. Adrian, what an honor to finally get to meet you.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Oh, John, thank you so much. I appreciate the interest in my work. Thank you so much.

• 4:27John R. Miles?

  Well, I want to start here. You have spent decades studying recognition and engagement. And I have to say, during the time when I was in Fortune 500 companies, your books were something I really looked to help me understand what was going on and how to treat employees less like cogs and more like humans. And you have surveyed, as I understand it, not just hundreds of thousands of employees, but like millions of employees. When you zoom out across all the data, what's the most surprising thing leaders consistently get wrong about their people?

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Well, thanks, John. And just so we have survey partners who help us with this, you don't want me doing the data analysis, but we've got some wonderful PhDs who do this. And they get really excited and they call you up and they say, we found something statistically significant, which is about as excited as they ever get. So be all right. There's hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people in the databases that we've gathered over the years. And just looking from a high level, sometimes I'll have reporters who call and they'll say, I want the freshest data. I want what people are thinking today. And you know what? It's the same as we were thinking 10 years ago and 20 years ago. We humans want places to work where somebody listens to us, where we feel like we have a mission and we understand the

• 5:45Speaker 01

  future direction of the organization. And somebody recognizes us for the value that we add. They're very simple, very foundational things we're all looking for in our places of work. And yeah, there are some new things that are emerging in the last few years that we haven't really seen before. We want a leader who's a little bit more empathetic. Well, five years ago, 10 years ago, we didn't even worry about that. COVID changed a lot of things. So now empathy is expected in a leader. I write a column every month in Forbes and I never would have talked about empathy 10 years ago. Today, if you don't have it, the rest doesn't matter. So there are some new things we're seeing in the data, but there are some traditional leadership values

• 6:29Speaker 01

  that we have to put in place as you're looking for. We're looking for an organization that will flourish and ourselves to flourish.

• 6:37John R. Miles?

  Yeah, I really loved my time at Lowe's and one of the things that was a really monumental thing that we did on a monthly basis is the CEO would lead this event where we would recognize employees for their service. And at Lowe's at that period of time, there were a lot of people who had been with them for decades and everyone wanted to get eventually the Rolex watch. But I read about a moment in your career where there was an employee named Pat who was recognized for the first time in 30 years and it really changed how you saw leadership. What did that moment unlock that data alone never could?

• 7:18Speaker 01

  This one I don't talk about much. It's, boy, you've done your research. Good for you. So this was something like you. I spent time in Fortune 500 companies and some mid level companies. I was a vice president at a large financial institution. So I ran investor relations, corporate communications, public affairs, a lot of teams that were doing different things. And one of the employees worked in employee communication. So basically she did the newsletter, had done it for 30 years. And at some point, I brought her into my office and I said, Pat, this newsletter is old. It's dated. I said, look, another time, USA Today was still pretty hot when we were reading the standard newspapers. Look at this. I said, emulate something like a USA Today. Find some people in the, around the

• 8:03Speaker 01

  seven states or eight, nine, eight states we had at that point, we were keep growing, as correspondents and make this happen happening. And so she did. She redesigned it, found a designer, found a network of correspondents and really did a great job. And I said, okay, wonderful. That's her job. She should be doing that. And one of my employees, Jenny Schuman, came in and she said, Adrian, she says, you need to recognize Pat. Like, well, no, I don't. This is, we pay her. I don't know. Every two weeks, she gets that paycheck. That's what her recognition is. And she goes, no, you're a knucklehead. You need to recognize her. But another week went by and I didn't. So finally Jenny brought in a little cup with candy in it and she'd wrapped it up and put a nice little bow on top. And she says,

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Adrian, give her this in staff meeting. We're about to walk into staff meeting. So we go into my staff meeting and before we get rolling, I just say, hey, before we get going, everybody, Pat has done a great job redesigning this newsletter. I tell everybody what she's done. I said, I hold it up. I said, isn't this great? And I look over and Pat's got tears streaming down her face. And she told me afterward, she says, Adrian, I've worked for the bank for 30 years. Nobody has ever done that before. Well, and I wouldn't have done it if I didn't have an employee who actually said, hey, pay attention to the value your people are bringing. And it was just one of those moments that made me realize there's something to this. I was driven by very different things than the people who worked for me.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Pat was never going to be, nor did she want to be promoted to senior leadership. Didn't have stock options, didn't have all the things that some of us in higher levels were motivated by. She just wanted to know that she was making a difference. And then jump ahead, I think it was about a year ago. So I'm at a conference, I'm giving a speech and it's a 70,000 person organization. It's a huge organization. The CEO is in the front row, sitting next to the head of HR. And afterwards, the head of HR comes up and she goes, thanks so much. She says, maybe the CEO will tell me now that I've done a good job at this conference. And so here's a CHRO, probably making a seven figure salary, that just wanted a little approbation from her boss, the CEO. So we all want this.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  We all want to know that our work is valued and that we're making a difference. And as leaders, we just tend to forget this, especially as we move up the ladder.

• 10:23John R. Miles?

  Adrian, it's been really ironic for me. I haven't been out in the corporate workforce now for six or seven years. As like you, I went on to do my own thing and write books, et cetera. And over the past two months, I have gotten over a dozen inbounds requesting that I interview to be the chief human resource officer. And some of these are gigantic, 50 billion plus companies. And I say to the recruiters, my whole background was in operations and technology. I know nothing about being a chief human resources officer. And they said, yes, but you know, a lot about mattering. And most companies are trying to create cultures of significance.

• 11:10John R. Miles?

  When I was in a lot of the companies where I worked, and I saw this in both large companies like Dell and medium sized companies and even startups, so many of them operate in fear based cultures.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:24John R. Miles?

  And I think the leadership doesn't even realize it because sometimes they're so out of touch with what's happening in the rank and file. What have you found are some of the subtle signals that create fear?

• 11:36Speaker 01

  That's such a great question, John, because if you and I surveyed a hundred managers, I don't think any one of them would think I operate in a fear based manner. Nobody does. And yet, when we've done our research, typically about a third of managers are seen as operating in a fear based way. And now, it's not like it's the old days, they're smoking a stogie, going down the, you know, yelling at everybody. Those days are thankfully gone, but they manage in fear based ways in very subtle ways. Sometimes they'll say, look, John, we gotta get this project out. I can't guarantee it's everybody's job if we don't hit these deadlines. They just sow fear in very subtle ways, very different ways. And sometimes it's just the vibe you get.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  You know, your manager isn't calm, your manager isn't in control. And people smell it on you if you're not calm and collected. And so I think that idea of fear comes in very different forms today. And yet, as leaders, we have to be very aware of it. The vibe we send is spreading like a perfume within the organization. We wrote a book called All In, which is about culture. And some leaders don't feel they have a culture. No, that's something the HR worries about, that's something the corporate world worries about. No, every team has a culture. And even in really bad places, as you say, there's companies that have fear based cultures. You can still have these oases, right? Right?

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Like you created at Lowe's, you have this little oasis that is an amazing culture. And every company I've ever gone in, I love to meet the managers who are making a difference. This has probably been about 10 years ago now, but I was in Norton Healthcare, which is in Louisville, Kentucky. And it was, it's a great healthcare system, but the CEO introduced me to a guy who had taken food service in their Audubon Hospital, that's their heart hospital, from 1% nationally customer service to the 99th percentile. So it doesn't mean 1% people gave them positive marks, but no, they were in the lowest percentile and they took it to the highest percentile, like you did in your two years at Lowe's. He did that within a year and it was remarkable.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  So I asked, what did you do differently? And he says, oh no, it wasn't me, it was my people. And I said, well, did you fire everybody? He said, no, they're on the same team, basically. And I said, well, you must have done something different. His name is Mike Julson, this manager. And he said, well, we started with the basics, right? We started recognizing people for just showing up, for smiling at customers, for new menu ideas. And then my team started raising the bar. They started becoming healers themselves. This is a heart hospital. So my team started making rounds, teaching people about heart safety and eating better and nutrition. He says, we became healers and not just people slopping food on the plate. And he says, we

• 14:32Speaker 01

  became part of the healing process as important as nurses or doctors. That's what we felt. Well, that happens when you're not operating in a fear-based, you're operating in a purpose-based environment.

• 14:45John R. Miles?

  I'm not sure if you've ever met Claude Silver, who's, Claude works for Gary Vaynerchuk and she has been his right-hand person now for over a decade. And she used to be on the advertising side and, and she was about ready to leave the company. And Gary says, like he often does, what can I do to retain you? And she said, I really want to work more with people and change the dynamics and the culture of the company. And he said, well, I've been pondering this idea. I think we need to go away from a chief human resources officer and we need a chief heart officer. And so she became, I think, the world's first chief heart officer. And when I was talking to her, what she was telling me is that we

• 15:30John R. Miles?

  look so myopically at people. Oftentimes you don't even think about what they've done beyond their job. But she said, one of the things that she brought into VaynerMedia was instead of just seeing the employees within the work environment, she was trying to gauge what's their bigger aspirations. What are Their passions outside of work, what's going on with their families? And how do you help their management see more of the person instead of just this myopic version? Do you think that's something more leaders should concentrate on?

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Not at all. No, of course. Yeah, absolutely, John. That's awesome. I love that idea. And for us, it's get to know their stories, right? And you, I'm sure you did this as a leader. You go, leaders that come in and say, hey, how's your kid? Didn't he have a softball game last night? Well, you're gonna walk through fire for somebody like that versus, yeah, John, I know you, I know something about you, but I can't put my finger on it. No, great leaders get to know their people. In fact, Chester Elton and I, my co-author and I, we have a podcast called The Culture Works. We were just interviewing a CHRO, I think it was yesterday, the day before, 6,000 employees. And she says, no, I'm not head of HR. She says, I'm head of people and culture. She says, because I don't do human resources, I do people. And everybody's got a story.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Everybody needs to be led differently. And we're creating a culture here. And I think that's probably one reason why companies are looking for you as a CHRO, is that you're not approaching this from the same old standpoint. You're approaching this from a very human standpoint. In fact, this head of HR, who's head of people and culture, had a marketing background. She says, and that's how I approach dealing with all these initiatives we're launching for people. Says, you gotta market it. You've gotta come from different angles. You've got to, because everybody is different. So if there's a big aha from all these people we've researched, and the reason that engagement

• 17:30Speaker 01

  levels don't really increase in most companies, is because we try to do this as a overall strategy. This is our engagement strategy. The problem is, we're all very different. How you are motivated versus how I'm motivated is gonna be very different. And great leaders understand that. And it takes more work, it takes more time, but it really is powerful when you get to know the stories behind your people and realize that, well, John, he's trying to move up in the organization. He wants exposure to senior leadership levels. Adrian, he's more about creativity and working autonomously. And so I'm gonna give him things to stretch and grow there. And we're all very different. You get to know your people in that way, then they really will walk through fire for you.

• 18:16John R. Miles?

  Before we continue, thank you for supporting Passion Struck. One theme has echoed through every conversation in the Connection Crisis series. People don't simply want success, they want significance. Whether we're talking about families, friendships, leadership, or organizations, the deepest human need isn't achievement, it's knowing we matter. That's exactly what I explore in my upcoming book, The Mattering Effect. Why do so many successful people still feel unseen? Why does recognition transform performance far more than incentives? And how can each of us become someone who helps others recognize their own significance? If you'd like to go deeper, every episode includes a free companion workbook with practical

• 18:59John R. Miles?

  exercises and reflection prompts available at theunitedlife.net. Now, a quick break for our sponsors. Thank you for supporting those who support the show.

• 19:18John R. Miles?

  You're listening to Passion Struck right here on the Passion Struck Network. Now, let's get back to the conversation. When I was interviewing for roles, one of the questions that you always get is, "What is your leadership style?" And I think the canned answer for so many years was, "I'm a servant leader." And that's what I learned in the military. But when they would ask me that question, I always would answer, "I'm a situational leader." And I would get these really weird looks. "What do you mean situational?" And I would say, just like what you're saying, every single person is different, and you're dealing with different situations all the time. So in each case, you have to tailor your response to the person and what motivates

• 20:03John R. Miles?

  them, and also to the scenario that's playing out. I don't think a one-size-fits-all leadership approach works in any scenario. But I would get the... Good for you. I would get the weirdest.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  What does he have? No values? Is he just blowing the wind? And it's no, because you do have your values, knowing you, you're not going to lie, you're not going to cheat, you're not going to do anything unethical. So there are certain values that you have and what you expect. But as you say, people are very different. You're going to have your values that you stick to, your leadership brand. But then you may need to be a lot more soft with somebody than you normally would be. It was a great example. We we made friends with a basketball coach. He coached, it was high school level, but they were a travel team in the in South Orange, New Jersey, where I did my grad school. It's a tough part of town. And these kids are, they've been raised in a kind of a tough area.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  And we went to watch one of his games and he called one kid out over who's a three point threat. And the kid was bricking everything. He was not doing well. He brings him over and he says, hey, it's okay, Tommy, pats him on the back, sits him down and says, go sit down for a few minutes. You're back in, keep shooting, you'll get it. And then a few minutes later, one of his tall kids up front, he brings him over and he just starts screaming at him. And it's like, what the heck? And we asked him afterwards, I couldn't help notice that you didn't have the same approach. He says, oh, yeah, no, he says, that my center, he says, he's got a thick head. He says, you gotta yell at him. And he says, and that'll charge him up. You've watched how he was the second half. He was fighting, he was going for every rebound. He says, you have to challenge him like that.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  He says, if I did that with that first kid, he'd be a basket case for a week. I wouldn't mean to be able to talk to him, he probably wouldn't show up for practice tomorrow. We're all different, right? Bring it into the workplace. There's some people that are going to need to be treated in a little different way. And it's okay. I love that idea of situational leadership. Ken Blanchard taught us all those years ago. You're bringing it to the modern world. Good for you.

• 22:01John R. Miles?

  Adrian, in one of your most recent books, Leading with Gratitude, you've identified what you call the gratitude gap. And this is something, we've been talking about this from the onset in many ways with recognizing employees.

• 22:17John R. Miles?

  But I think there is still a major disconnect that you brought out in the book between what leaders think they're doing and what employees feel. Why is that gap so persistent?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  And the way we came to this gap, we were, Chester and I, our mentor is Marshall Goldsmith.

• 22:35John R. Miles?

  Mine too.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Oh, that's, yeah, we all know Marshall.

• 22:38John R. Miles?

  He borrowed my last book. Yes.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 22:41John R. Miles?

  Love Marshall.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I was just on a call with him earlier this week and Marshall tells it like it is. And he'll tell you when you're kind of rambling about something, he'll say, Adrian, stop. He says, raise your hand. And he says, I no longer believe that. And he'll just push you. Well, we're sitting around one day, Chester and Marshall and I talking, and we said, hey, his great book, What Got You Here Won't Get You There. We said, look, one of the things that we think you should add in is gratitude. That's one thing that's missing. And he says, well, let's write a book about it. And he was only able to write the foreword because he was contractually obligated to write something else. But he said, as we were sitting there, and he says, it's funny, the farther people move up the corporate ladder, the more they forget these human things that people need, like gratitude.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  He says, I don't know the percentage, but I would guess most of the people that I have coached over my career, and they're usually CEOs at Marshall's level, he says, just don't get this stuff. And they think they do, right? They think they're really good because now and then they may slap somebody on the back and say, good job. What does that mean? So we identified, look, there's this gap out there. Again, we come back to the data. What we find in our research, all these, almost a million people now, about 10% are managers or above. And of those, about two thirds, I think it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 67% of managers say they are above average at appreciating the great work of their people.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  So I'll put to you, John, is what percent of employees you think agree with that statement? That their manager is above average at appreciating them?

• 24:12John R. Miles?

  I would say 10% or less.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're even more cynical. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of 23%. So we have 23, so a quarter of people say, being generous, say, my manager is actually above average. Doesn't mean they're great. They're just above average. And 67% of managers, so you have this 44% perception gap. You could drive a Mack truck through that, right? We're not as good as we think we are about this. And yet, in Leading with Gratitude, we showed the data that says, look, get this right. Not just good, but get it great. And you're going to see higher levels of employee engagement, customer satisfaction. It trickles down to all the things you're looking for in your lives.

• 24:52John R. Miles?

  I have two things to say about Marshall Goldsmith. So the first is, one of the times I interviewed him, we get done the whole interview. And he goes, John, I need you to stick around for about five to 10 minutes. And I'm like, what is this all about? And then he goes through and he says, you did a really great job interviewing, but there are a couple of things that you're doing that you don't realize you're doing that you need to stop doing.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And let me guess, the and but or, that's usually one he picks on people.

• 25:23John R. Miles?

  It wasn't the and, it was the but. So that was one. So after that, I went to improv class to get better at not doing it. But he also told me that I didn't challenge him as much as I should have. I took him too literal and he wanted me to push back on him more. And the other thing I have to say is, I almost think his book, The Earned Life, is better than What Got You Here, where you want to go. I love that book.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  It's a great book. That was actually the book that he couldn't write Leading with Gratitude with us because he was working on The Earned Life and he was under contract. But you're right, it's a great book and it's one of his legacy books. Because Marshall is now, I think, 77. He's saying, look, this is what you want to leave as a leader. And coming back to Marshall challenging you, that's what great coaches do. And he's a great coach that's, in our lives, if you don't have somebody on your team that challenges you like that, you don't have a mentor, you don't have a boss, somebody who will tell you, the emperor has no clothes, go find them today.

• 26:26John R. Miles?

  Yeah.

• 26:29John R. Miles?

  Adrian, do you think the real issue with leaders is that they aren't expressing gratitude? Or do you think it's they're actually not seeing their people deeply enough?

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's two parts to gratitude, and I think you're right there. It's and I would say it's yes, and right, the improv idea. It's yes, we're not seeing the value that's being created around us as leaders. That is, and it's because we just get so busy. It's not we're bad people. Time is the number one problem that when managers say, look, I just don't have time for those leaders.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Number one is time. And the point is you make time for things that are important. This really is. Secondly, sometimes we don't know what to say or what to do. So we end up doing nothing, which is worse than trying and even maybe missing. So yeah, the first part is this idea of not seeing the value because we're too busy. Or the second is this idea of not knowing really how to express our appreciation in a meaningful way. And most of the time is that CHRO of the 70,000 person company. Gee, I just wish my manager would say, thanks, but in a specific way, right? It's not, hey, John, good work. Boy, you sure do good work. You sure look busy around here. That's not meaningful to anybody.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  But hey, John, thanks for staying late last night, getting those invoices out. We're a small team and you took ownership. That's one of our core values around here, and you showed that in spades. Yeah, sorry if you had to miss something at home. Hopefully we won't ask you to do that much, but thank you for that ownership. Well, makes a makes a huge difference. Those are just words, but you're seeing me. You're seeing the value that I am creating. That makes a big difference.

• 28:13John R. Miles?

  I think what you're saying there between seeing someone and expressing it is so important. And one of my favorite leaders I ever worked with was this gentleman, Steve Selagi, who, when I was at Lowe's, I met him when he was SVP over all the distribution centers, which had a big job of 30,000 people. And then he eventually became the EVP of supply chain. I just marveled at him. We would go into these distribution centers that are about a million and a half square foot.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:45John R. Miles?

  It's not like he knew one person. He knew everyone. He not only knew them, I would just watch and wonder. He'd start talking to them about their wives and their kids, like how he would talk to them about their sick parents or other things going on. And I can't tell you how many times I would see employees just burst into tears telling them his life, their life stories. And what I really marveled at is when he had this group, they were trying to make extremely profound changes because his boss, they had brought in from Walmart and he was trying to revolutionize the whole supply chain system. And so Steve was asking these employees to do

• 29:27John R. Miles?

  things that were way out of their comfort zones. And yet, because of how he treated them, they trusted him and then they would do it. I contrast that with another worker, another supervisor from Lowe's who spent most of her time in the office. She managed up, wanted nothing to do with walking the halls or meeting anyone, felt that was her subordinate's job. And in that case, when new initiatives came down, employees didn't want to do anything. And I just bring that up because I think those are two extreme situations that kind of illustrate what you're talking about.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  I love those both. What great examples. What we've found in our research is that the managers who have the highest levels of trust with their teams, and as you say, people will take on extra work for them. They'll do whatever kind of change initiatives they want, spend about 75% of their time not managing up, not even with their peers, but with their teams, helping remove obstacles, asking how things are going, etc. And I have a good, I'm pretty good friends with a CEO in Canada, and I won't mention his company, but they've got thousands of employees. And he called me up not long ago. He says, I have just discovered three magic words that have changed the way I lead. I was like, oh my gosh, what are these? And he goes, how are you? I said, I was like, come

• 30:49Speaker 01

  on. He says, no, let me tell you the story. He says, I'm walking through the halls and he'd been a pretty new CEO there. So he doesn't know everybody that well. But see, I saw somebody that I'd interacted with a few times and she was sitting by herself and seemed contemplative. And he says, I went over and I said, Mary, everything okay? Yeah, I'm fine. Yeah. So he keeps going because he's got to get to his next meeting. But he says, I just stopped. I went back and I said, how are you? And again, like you're saying, she just broke down and just said, she says, my favorite aunt has just been diagnosed with cancer and went through this very tough situation. And he says, look, go home, go home, go figure, go be with your family. It's okay. It's a tough day. And anyway, she comes into my office later in the day and says, hey, just want to thank you for caring today. That meant a lot. I didn't end up going.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  We've been talking and we're going to meet up on the weekend. And she says, but I just wanted to thank you so much. And he says, who'd have thought, how are you? But meaning it. And she knew that he, she knew I meant it. I wanted to find out. I didn't care about being late to my meeting. I wanted to be there for one of my people. Well, again, that's, it's simple, right? But it's that idea of empathy we talked about earlier. It has to be there now. And CEO discovers that. But I love your two kind of counter examples, that people know when you care and don't. And you can't, can't fake your way through it if you're not really that kind of person. Maybe leadership is not the right avenue for you. There are other ways to make a buck in this world. If you're

• 32:18Speaker 01

  going to be a leader, care about your people. That's paramount today.

• 32:22John R. Miles?

  I'm going to take the story you just told and give you another Steve Salaji story. I, when I met Steve, would ask that question, how are you? And he would always say, and he had this huge smile. He's a big guy, used to play division one football. Outstanding. And I was on a plane one time sitting next to him. And I said, every time I ever ask you this question, it's either outstanding or best day ever. And he goes, Johnny goes, I have to tell you something. And he goes, when I was earlier in my career, people would ask me that question. And I would say, what a lot of people do. I'm okay. I've had better days, this and that. And he goes, I realized when I was saying that, not only did that

• 33:06John R. Miles?

  influence my mental state, but that was the energy I was putting out into the work environment. And he said, He caught himself doing this and actually talked to a coach about it. And the coach said, when someone does that, put a power word out there. And he said, when I started doing that, it changed everything. It changed how people approached me. It changed how people felt after I interacted with them, changed my whole energy level. So I took what he told me, and that's what I have ended up doing ever since. And it is such a profound difference when you use a power word or an affirmation of how you want the day to be going instead of regardless of how you feel.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  There's an old Bernstein Bears book that teaching your kids how to say please and thank you. And the kids just started, oh, fine, please and thank you for everything, right? And until finally, after a few days, it just became more natural. They were teasing at first, but then it just became, and that is so much human nature. You're right, is that we have to put out as much as we can, we have to be honest with people. We have to have our inner circle of people we can say, yeah, I am actually having a tough day. And we all need that. We can't just fake our way through it. But for most of the world, yeah, putting out positivity will eventually come back to us and we'll start believing it ourselves. And Chester, my co-authors, they ask him, how you doing? He says,

• 34:31Speaker 01

  ah, if it was any better, it wouldn't be fair. And yet, I know he goes through hard things like all of us. By the time we've reached our age, we're all going through something. And so you have to understand that. But you're right, put out positivity. It's bread upon the waters. It'll come back to you.

• 34:49John R. Miles?

  Well, one thing I've realized is that poorly delivered recognition actually does more harm than good. And it led me to this question. Do you think there's a big difference between recognizing someone's output, meaning the results of their work versus recognizing who they are?

• 35:08Speaker 01

  That's a great question. Flesh is back. I don't think I mentioned when you talked about Lowe's Service Awards, the five, 10 years, people sometimes kind of say, oh, that's silly. But to me, that is the thank you for the thousand things you've done over the years that nobody ever said thank you for. That's look, it's five years, or it's 10 years, or whatever it is, and saying, John, thank you so much for all that you have given that we've never said thank you for. And in a little way, that's maybe what you're asking too, because we're such an achievement-driven world. And what's the next thing you're gonna do, John? It's, well, you do bring value, even what we may call the steady eddies. They're just showing up, they just get the work done every day.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  There's a lot of value to an organization in people who are rocks, who are just there for you. Even though they're not blowing the doors off with new initiatives or new ideas, no, they come, they do their work, and that's important, too. So I think you're right, is that we are recognizing who somebody is, their innate value that they bring, as well as, there's also those above and beyond moments. And so what we do is we praise effort and we reward results. So praising effort, somebody is doing what we're expecting them to do, that's wonderful. Praise them for it. It's not a bad thing to tell them, thank you for what we may expect of you.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  But when somebody really does go above and beyond, and they're stretching themselves, and they're adding to the organization, then reward that moment. A lot of managers get that mixed up. They reward effort, so everybody gets the same rewards, because I don't like to single people out. Or they praise results. Hey, we finally got the big result. We finally got the safety level we're looking for. We finally got the level of sales we're looking for. Way to go, let's get back to work, let's work twice as hard now. No, no, you pause. Praise effort, but when you have a result, take a moment, celebrate it. Make people, whether it's individuals or team, feel good. And there's places for both.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  When you win the Super Bowl, the team celebrates, but there's still an MVP. There's places for individual recognition and team celebrations. They're different things. Don't get those mixed up, because people need to know that they're singled out, and teams need to celebrate together.

• 37:35John R. Miles?

  When I was at Lowe's and I was trying to turn around this organization, obviously there's people that you see who need to remain on the bus, and there's, unfortunately, seats that need to be replaced. Well, I replaced One of these seats with a gentleman from outside the company. And we think of recognition as giving something to someone. I think of recognition as Marshall having enough care for me that he was willing to spend a few moments to try to make me a better interviewer, a better person. And so in this case of this gentleman, he was one of our shift commanders in the Operation Command Center. And I remember we had given him this strategy.

• 38:20John R. Miles?

  We'd given him a whole bunch of tools and I was having a discussion with him one day that I bumped into him. He starts going, well, how do you want me to do this? How do you want me to do that? And I said to him, you're on a 24 by seven watch and you rotate between day shifts and night shifts. So there's no way, given how many employees I have, that I can be here to micromanage what you're doing. And so what I really need you to do and all the leaders to do is to take the vision that we're giving you and to use, you know, your leadership experience, and this was a gentleman who at the time was probably 50, to make the best course corrections that you think will change the needle.

• 39:05John R. Miles?

  And I will never forget this, Adrian, because he looked at me and he said, in over two decades, you were the first leader who has ever given me permission to do what you just did. And it really blew me away. And as I started to talk to the other leaders who had been long-term employees, none of them were given that ability to really lead in the way that they thought would bring the best results. And I think it's something that's so prevalent in so many environments that so many leaders dictate the results. Instead of it being like a Green Beret set of troops who are 2,000 miles away.

• 39:47John R. Miles?

  And General McChrystal, in no way can micromanage what they're doing, but he can give them the intent of what he wants them to accomplish. Do you see that as well?

• 39:59Speaker 01

  It's a great comment. Yeah, a wise man once said, teach people good principles that get out of their way.

• 40:03John R. Miles?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Right. And then that's the idea where you're talking about here is that how many managers still micromanage versus giving people the parameters. I did some work with WD-40, which is a company, a lot of people don't know that, but they make tons of things. And if you haven't interviewed Gary Ridge, the ex-CEO, you should. And one of the things that WD-40 says, look, we don't have mistakes. We have learning opportunities. And as I interviewed some of the employees before I gave a presentation there, one of them said, look, we can make any mistake once here. If you keep making a mistake, well, then you're the problem, but we can make any mistake once, which I thought was really terrific. And that's kind of what you're saying is, look, you may make mistakes. It's okay. I'm setting the parameters. We're going to correct if that does happen, but go make mistakes.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  In fact, at WD-40 headquarters in San Diego, going up the stairs to the second level, there are all these plaques on the wall and they're just different formulas. And WD-40, of course, stands for water displacement fortieth formula, right? Thirty-nine formulas failed. And Gary says, no, they weren't failures. We just learned each time that we got it right. And that's what we embrace around here is learning. And you're not going to be perfect. Don't worry about that. But do learn from your mistakes and teach us. What have you learned? And Gary would say, look, when something bad happens around here, we get excited. It's like, hey, what can we learn instead of who can we point the finger at? And that's the kind of culture you created there, which is just terrific.

• 41:31John R. Miles?

  I don't think people realize all the uses of WD-40. One that I didn't even realize until a handyman was helping me build an outside shower was now that you've got all these nice shower fixtures out here, sinks, other thing, anything that's metal, every month, spray it with WD-40 because it will stop it from rusting.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It'll clean rust too off your grill or whatever. Yeah, it's amazing.

• 41:58John R. Miles?

  Man, it is an amazing product. Well, we've talked a lot about gratitude. I want to talk about workplace anxiety because you've written another book on this. We started the conversation out by talking about fear. What's the correlation between cultures of fear and anxiety?

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, as we were writing, the book's called Anxiety at Work. And we started testing out the ideas before the book came out. And I would have people come up to me and go, don't talk about anxiety. Don't use that word. We call it, we do the positive. Talk about resilience. And I said, okay, but this is what people are feeling. And as we mentioned earlier, even if you're not really working for a manager who is, who's yelling and being micromanaging, all these things, there's a lot of fear in environments right now, period. No matter how caring and loving and wonderful your boss is, we are afraid. Look at the political environment. Look at the economic environment we're in. Look at the, we could go on and on. Every company I go into right now says, we're going through a lot of change, Adrian.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, everybody is. It used to be you could go do something for the government and they would say, we're the only people who aren't changing. They're changing. Everybody is going through transformation and change right now. And you think of the place in your life where you have the least control. Well, it's work. You need the paycheck to pay your mortgage and your car loan. You need that paycheck. And yet, there's not a lot of communication about what's happening. There's not a lot of, there's just a tremendous amount of uncertainty. So the point is, we have to, as much as we can, bring that anxiety level down. I was doing some work with Microsoft. One of their wonderful leaders there, as I interviewed his team, they said, Lutz is

• 43:42Speaker 01

  really good at making us feel like we're going into the dark together, right? We're holding hands. We're, we're not going to get lost. Nobody is going to get wander off into the darkness here. We're all working on this together. And that's the idea is like, how do you make people feel like, look, we don't have all the answers, but I'm going to tell you everything I know as soon as I do know it. I'm going to be clear with you. I'm going to talk about this, not just once a year in our big strategy meeting. No, we're going to talk about this every week. Hey, something new. And we're going to, we're going to brainstorm. And especially you are going to be involved. And decisions that affect your job. Now, you may not have the final say, but you're going to have a voice and we're going to listen to each other. There's a tremendous difference

• 44:25Speaker 01

  in anxiety levels in a place where you work like that's like they get you involved and gives you as much communication as they can and a place where it's a need to know basis. And John, you're never going to really need to know anything. Just do what you need to do, right?

• 44:39John R. Miles?

  When I think of anxiety, I think of it in the way that you're describing it. In my first book, I wrote a chapter called the Anxiety Optimizer. And what I was focusing on more in that chapter was a flow state that oftentimes, as a leader, one of our responsibilities is how do we help our organization get into the flow state? How do we reduce the conditions that allow them to have the optimum amount of anxiety? And I remember I was working on this chapter and I ended up talking to a race car driver because they're at lows, there's a whole bunch right around it. And this gentleman was talking about his rookie

• 45:20John R. Miles?

  year and he kept crashing out. And he says to me, at first, I was trying to be too cautious and I would wreck. And then I was too aggressive and then I would wreck. And then I realized that I had to be on the edge without going over the edge. And I'm like, that's it. How do you reach that point? So how do you think leaders can help their employees have environments like that where they can practice optimal anxiety?

• 45:53Speaker 01

  That's just a great question. And it's such a great image, too, of being on the edge without going over because we're all living right now in these uncertain world. And you can't take that away from people. You can't make the world the simple, easy to understand place anymore. We're living in VUCA, right? Volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity. That's our borderline place right now. That's the baseline. And so with that, though, you don't have to amp things up. You don't have to create more pressure. I was in one big Fortune 500, big brand, and one of the employees told me, he says, working here, he says, they have this description that a gun is placed in your back when you start, and the trigger is pulled. If you stop sprinting, the bullet will get

• 46:36Speaker 01

  you. He says, that's the environment here. We're all worried. And it did. It just burned people out. And tremendously talented people that I've met in many other companies who said, oh, yeah, I used to work there. It was great. I learned a lot, but I could only handle a year or two years. There's no point in that. There's no point in creating excess anxiety like that. So what leaders can do, in fact, 70% of the stress that, or I think the stat is that 70% of people say their manager is their number one cause of stress in the workplace. So not deadlines, not customers, it's their manager. Well, we don't need to

• 47:16Speaker 01

  be that. We can be their ally. We can help them. When bubbles are creative work, we can help shuffle things a little bit. We can, it's that, how are you? We can be there for people. We don't have to be a therapist. But we can bring anxiety levels down as much as we can. We can't eliminate it. But as you said, you can live right on that knife's edge a little bit of, okay, I'm okay. I know I'm busy. I know there's a lot, but I feel like I'm able to do this. We straddle between too aggressive and too relaxed.

• 47:48John R. Miles?

  I know in Leading with Gratitude that you covered Charles Duhigg, who's one of my favorite authors. I've had Charles on the podcast a couple of times. But I want to go to his newer work, Super Communicator. When you think of super communicators, how much does that play into the anxiety that we fear, feel in work, and also the gratitude that we can, we can give our employees? Because I think there's a huge link to his work. And both your books.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Well, the thing with communication, it's everybody knows it's important and nobody thinks they're as good as they should be. So I was doing a session with Michigan Medicine. It's the University of Michigan's Medicine System. And so it was with surgeons. So I have 30 surgeons in the room. It was just kind of a more intimate setting and we were working for half a day. And I'm doing lots of different exercises with them around building culture, leadership. And we had a section on communication, right? Where it falls apart. And I had them work together brainstorming where it falls apart, what they can do, et cetera. And I went up to the organizer and I said, Oh, my gosh. Now, they've been engaged all day. I said, But now, they're leaning in, they're arguing with each other, they're talking. And he says, Oh, yeah, this is where surgeons are at their worst with communicating,

• 49:03Speaker 01

  right? Now, they're not alone. Surgeons may be some of the worst at it sometimes, but we all can do better here. So one of the great leaders we interviewed for our book, All In, a woman named Doria Camaraza, who runs American Express's call centers. And it was like you described with your great leader, 3,000 people in her call center. We walked through the halls with her and people are, she knew everybody, every single person and their backstories. And it was remarkable. And yet, she said, Look, just last week, we had to let a couple of people go. But I went to their desks. I sat with them. I talked about why. It wasn't trickle down. She's two or three levels above these people. But she talked about how we're changing and this is no longer a needed function. And

• 49:47Speaker 01

  she says, I just explained everything. I answered their questions. I was there for them in the toughest times. I was there in the good times for people. And that's what you have to do. One of the things that Doria does, so her and her team, so I don't know, she has eight or nine senior leaders on her executive team. And we sat in a conference room with them. We said, What are you doing to make people feel good about working here? Recognition and valuing them. We just started writing stuff on those 3M flip chart things. And we filled up pages and pages with all the things they were doing from a positive standpoint. Well, that's what communication is. It's five positives for every tough coaching moment, right? It's five positives, every negative. And they were doing that in spades.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  And because of that, their employee turnover was in the single digits, unheard of in a call center. They don't pay any higher wages than anybody else. And I think it's 10 years in a row now of J.D. Power and Associates top for customer satisfaction and for a call center. There's a lot of power in communication when we commit to being clear, open, transparent as we can be and making it very human. There's a lot that goes into that, of course, but those are the foundational elements.

• 51:01John R. Miles?

  Adrienne, as we wrap up, if a leader is listening to today's discussion and they've been unintentionally overlooking their people, or maybe even family members, what's one shift that they can immediately do that would have an outsized impact?

• 51:15Speaker 01

  It's an interesting question because there are some low hanging fruit when we go into an organization. We say, look, just start doing these things. You're going to see a spike. And those simple things are make sure that people have a voice. Listen to people. It's a no brainer, but we just get so busy, we don't do it. The second is make sure people understand your vision for the future. As one employee told me recently, she said, if I know my manager is looking to the horizon, I can keep my head down and working. But if they're not, then I'm constantly looking up worrying. And so the idea is let people know this is our vision. This is how we're dealing with competitors, et cetera. And you don't do it once or twice a year. You do it every week. You're letting people know I've,

• 51:56Speaker 01

  I'm, my hand is on the steering wheel here. I'm in, I'm focusing on the future. Here's what I'm seeing. Keep talking to me. So give people a voice, give them a vision of the future. And when that aligns with your mission and your purpose, et cetera. And the last is we've talked a lot about is recognize their every step forward is a chance to develop people, to let them know how much you appreciate them. Every conversation is a chance for appreciation. So one thing we found in our data, in the best workplaces, there's a much higher preponderance of thank yous in a strategic manner. It's not just thank you. It's thank you for this.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Simple things, those are simple things that will help. Now, bringing it back to our home lives, same. Are you listening to your loved ones? Are you giving them a voice? Are you telling them where, what's my vision for our family and where we can go and what our values are? And are you appreciating them at every step for that you're going forward? That's one of the things that I'll hear after I've spoken or worked with somebody. They said, this is good at work, but boy, I'm using it at home. And that's really made a difference.

• 53:08John R. Miles?

  I don't think people realize they're the chief design officer of the culture of their home.

• 53:14John R. Miles?

  Adrian, it was such an honor to have you today. You have a podcast, you have lots of books. Where's the best place for people to go to learn more about you and your work?

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Adrian Gostik.com is where you can find me. And like you mentioned, pick up any of our books. We've got All In Anxiety at Work, Leading with Gratitude. There's lots out there to get started. But thank you so much, John, for having me on the show. It's been a really great discussion. You have challenged me, and I'll tell Marshall you did a great job.

• 53:44John R. Miles?

  Adrian, thank you so much.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Hey, thank you.

• 53:47John R. Miles?

  That brings us to the end of today's conversation with Adrian Gostick. There's one idea I'd like you to carry forward. It's this. People rarely do their best work because they're managed well. They do their best work because they feel valued. Throughout the Connection Crisis series, we've explored relationships, attachment, identity, belonging, and leadership. Each conversation has pointed us toward the same truth. Connection begins the moment another human being genuinely sees us. Whether at home, at work, or in our communities, recognition isn't simply a leadership skill. It's an act of humanity. When people know they matter, they bring more of themselves into the world. And that's where flourishing begins. Next week, we begin an entirely new chapter here on Passion Struck.

• 54:30John R. Miles?

  Our new series is called Flourishing: How Humans Become Fully Alive. Over the coming weeks, we'll explore what it truly means not just to survive, but to awaken, grow, cultivate meaningful lives, contribute our gifts, and intentionally become the people we're capable of becoming. We'll be joined by remarkable guests, including Suzanne Geissman, Nick Ortner, John Gordon, Dana Suskind, Leidy Klots, Guy Kawasaki, Jess Ekstrom, Sean Brosnan, Ivan Young, and many others as we examine the science, psychology, and practices that help people flourish. We begin that journey with Whitney Otto. Whitney has spent years studying the science of flow,

• 55:12John R. Miles?

  the remarkable state where our attention becomes fully absorbed, our sense of self-quits, and we experience our highest levels of presence, creativity, and performance. Together, we'll explore why flourishing begins. Flourishing begins with presence. How distraction has become one of the greatest barriers to living fully alive, and what each of us can do to experience more moments of deep engagement in our everyday lives. If you've been with us throughout the connection crisis, I hope you'll continue this journey with us. Because understanding why we're disconnected is only the first step. Learning how to flourish is where transformation truly begins.

• 55:48Speaker 02

  You know, anything that we practice, we get better at. So if we are practicing criticizing ourselves, looking for that part of ourselves we don't like, wishing a part of ourselves were different, or all of ourselves were different, we are practicing wanting to be different. Want and not liking ourselves and thinking we need to fix ourselves. And that practice can follow us into other areas of our lives, right?

• 56:16John R. Miles?

  If today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with someone who leads others, or someone who simply needs the reminder that every person wants to know they matter. You can find today's companion workbook and additional resources at The Ignited Life. And until next time, remember this. Connection helps us heal, but flourishing is what allows us to become fully alive. I'm John Miles, and you've been passion struck.