Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations

In conversations do you tend to dominate or take a backseat? In this Habits and Hustle episode, I'm re-sharing a conversation I had with etiquette expert Sara Jane Ho about using guidelines to foster a more interactive, balanced dialogue, and deeper connection. Listen as we discuss the challenge of dancing around the fine line between curiosity and intrusiveness, noting cultural differences in what's considered polite or rude, and the intersection of East meets West and female empowerment - especially in business! She also shares the true impact of making a strong first impression, especially in the world of modern dating, and the evolving norms of social etiquette in the post-COVID world. Sara Jane Ho is the star of Netflix's "Mind Your Manners", author of the book of the same name, founder of Chinese finishing school, Institute Sarita, where students are taught etiquette and lifetime skills. What We Discuss: (11:00) The legacy of etiquette and charm schools (20:00) How to master etiquette and dating in the modern world (22:18) The impact of a first impression (37:00) The essential guide to exceptional table manners (51:10) The key differences between curiosity and intrusiveness (58:34) Career choices and female empowerment (01:01:51 Herbal remedies and Eastern medicine (01:11:50) Innovative intimate wellness company and proper vulva hygiene education (01:25:14) Avoiding graveyard energy in your home, and the 20 second/40 second rule …and more! Thank you to our sponsors: AquaTru: Get 20% off any purifier at aquatru.com http://aquatru.com with code HUSTLE Therasage: Head over to therasage.com http://therasage.com/ and use code Be Bold for 15% off TruNiagen: Head over to truniagen.com http://truniagen.com/ and use code HUSTLE20 to get $20 off any purchase over $100. Magic Mind: Head over to www http://www/.magicmind.com http://magicmind.com//jen and use code Jen at checkout. BiOptimizers: Want to try Magnesium Breakthrough? Go to https://bioptimizers.com/jennifercohen and use promo code JC10 at checkout to save 10% off your purchase. Timeline Nutrition: Get 10% off your first order at timeline.com/cohen http://timeline.com/cohen Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com http://airdoctorpro.com/ and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Find more from Jen: Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Sara Jane Ho: Website:https://www.sarajaneho.com/ Book: Mind Your Manners https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Your-Manners-Best-Situation/dp/0306832836 Instagram: @sarajaneho https://www.instagram.com/sarajaneho/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

• 0:07Jen Cohen?

  Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor Therasage. Their Trillight Panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammation in places in my body where honestly, I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for.

• 0:50Jen Cohen?

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• 1:31Jen Cohen?

  All right, guys, this is a fun episode we're doing today because I have Sarah Jane Ho, otherwise known as Sarah Jane, that's how you go by, who wrote a book called Mind Your Manners. She has the same name for her Netflix show, which is now not going into season two.

• 1:49Speaker 02

  We don't know yet. It's only been season one.

• 1:51Jen Cohen?

  It's only been season one, but she is a renowned etiquette expert. I can't wait to ask you my questions. And we are going to get really into all this stuff. Sarah, thank you so much for being on this podcast.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me. I love talking about habits and hustle.

• 2:06Jen Cohen?

  Well, I'm glad because we're going to be talking all about habits and hustle, but how to Do it properly. I mean, I gotta tell you, I'm actually kind of nervous to have you on. I told you that when you walked in because I don't know. I think maybe I need like, I need to hire you because there's a couple of areas of my life that probably I'm not the most groomed and well, my etiquette may be a little bit lacking. So this could be

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Can't wait to find out.

• 2:28Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, well. First question I have is give me your background. What makes you an expert in etiquette? Because do you go to school for that? I know that you created a school for it, but how do you, how do we know, like, why is it what you say is the, is the right way?

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a great question. So by the age of 14 years old, I'd grown up in Papua New Guinea, the UK, Hong Kong, and Exeter, New Hampshire, because I went to boarding school at Phillips Exeter. And so I was very much a third culture kid. You know, I was always like between really different cultures and trying to figure out how to fit in, right? Which is kind of the one thing about like being human, right? Human connection and belonging. And so it was very much a survival tool for me to be in different microcultures and figure out, okay, how do I, how do I fit in? What are the codes of conduct here? What is the, how are people dressed? What is the slang used? And later on, when I graduated from Harvard Business School in 2012, I, well, first I went to a Swiss finishing school,

• 3:28Speaker 02

  which is, uh, it was where women used to go back in the day because we didn't have the opportunity to go to college. And so women would finish their education at these finishing schools. It's mostly in Europe, but in the, in the America, you have CHOM school, right? You have etiquette schools very much in, in America too, back, back in the day. And now, you know, women are emancipated, women can vote, women go to university. So we no longer go to these finishing schools. But for me, going to finishing school and starting a finishing school in China for women, because we don't do kids, we do adult women. It was an opportunity I wanted to combine what I was passionate about with what I felt was a market need because no other country has been like China where they've gone through so much change in such a short amount of time.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Like when you think about the Industrial Revolution, right? That alone took 150 years to play out in Europe. And then you have like the Services revolution, the technological revolution. In China, you've had industrial services technological in thirty years. So that's a huge amount of change in a really short amount of time. Because China only opened up with economic reforms in nineteen seventy eight. So you have all these people with newfound riches, right? And then, but then trying to figure out how to navigate the world with confidence. And for me, when I was growing up, my mother was very much a, she was a role model. And she was always hosting in the house, creating magical moments between friends. Christmas would be dozens of people at our house. And then I lost it to cancer when I was twenty one years old. And my life really changed.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  I'm an only child. My dad didn't entertain in the same way on his own. And my home went from being, you know, really warm and loving and busy to very cold and lonely and empty. Until I realized, because I'm a Sagittarius, and I love, you know, being with friends and organizing, you know, social events. I guess I could continue her legacy, right? In, in something that I also enjoyed doing with etiquette. And so that's why in two thousand twelve, I moved to Beijing and I founded my etiquette school.

• 5:24Jen Cohen?

  Wow, so let me ask you, because you were saying something that was interesting. So the US or North America has charm schools. The European version would be considered finishing school. This is actually very timely because some very close friends of mine are from, I actually have a lot of friends from London. And they are, this one girl, her name's Amanda, I'm going to give her a shout out. She is all about etiquette and manners. And she has like impeccable manners and she always teases me about certain things. And so, you know, I find it's very Europe, much, it's a very European thing. I haven't seen that same type of, I don't know.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Well, you wouldn't in California, let me just put it this way.

• 6:08Jen Cohen?

  You wouldn't in California.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, like, it's.

• 6:10Jen Cohen?

  You would never, so it's, it's very culture, it's very culture based, isn't it? Like, it's not, well, you tell me, you said something.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, so California is very casual, right? It's, it's convenient, it's casual. It doesn't have the same sort of depth of history as the North, as New England, right?

• 6:25Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Whereas like New England and then the South. So the South is a lot of focus on charm school. That was a big thing. And debutantes, right, coming out, their debut into society. So America is so big that you're right, it is very culturally different.

• 6:40Jen Cohen?

  So, right, so now that you said that, you're right, like, very, because, you know, like, again, my friends who are, who are very southern, they say, their children say, Miss Jennifer, like, it's true, like, it's very specific to the culture and where you actually live. Like, that is, so then, let's say, is it also, I guess it's not just a socio-economic thing, because in the South, no matter where you are socio-economically, your manners and the way you speak to people and how you address people is very different than how you would, like you said, in California or in different cultures. So that is actually quite interesting.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  But, you know, back in the day, it would be. So, for example, in Europe, if you're from a good family, then you'd be sent to, actually, if you're a man, you'd be sent on a grand tour of Europe to go study the arts, to go see, let's say, like, you know, to go to Italy, to go to Greece, to go here and there, to finish your education, right?

• 7:36Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Women would be sent to finishing schools to prepare them for life as a hostess. Princess Diana, for example, went to finishing school in Switzerland.

• 7:43Jen Cohen?

  Right, and so what did you, what did you learn there? Give me an example of what were you, what would, what did they teach you? How was the day, give me a day in the life of what you do.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I was there for two, two and a little bit, it's two months, a little over two months. And it's a very intensive course schedule, you know, from morning till late afternoon. The course itself is called a hostess course, and there were a lot of modules and everything, from dining to dressing to table conversation, greetings and introductions. A lot of country learnings, because etiquette is contextual. So there's no right or wrong in etiquette. It really, it's contextual, depends on where you are, who you're with. For example, for example, let's say if I give a gift to you and we're in the West, right? You would open the gift in front of me to show importance to the gift. You would read the note in front of me, you'd make a big fuss of it, right, and, and show gratitude.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Now, in, in Asia, if I gave you a gift, and if you opened it up straight away, it would show greediness and that you have no self-control. So in Asia, if I receive a gift, I put it aside, I don't make a fuss of it, just put it aside, and then maybe on my own is when I'll open it up. And then, you know, later on, then I'll thank, thank the person who gave it to me.

• 8:54Jen Cohen?

  Do they teach you in finishing school contexts like that? So they'll say like, in the West, this is what happens. In Asia, this is what happens. Do they break it down?

• 9:04Speaker 02

  So when I went to Swiss finishing school in Switzerland, it was very European based. But they would talk about different countries on their own. So there'd be country modules. Now, I actually tweaked a lot of the core schedule to, for my local market for China. And everything we teach, we do what you just asked about, which is a Chinese and Western comparison. And because I spent my life being between both extremely different cultures, it comes very naturally for me to say, well, this is how it's done in Chi- how we do it in China. This is how we do it in the UK or in Europe. And this is how it's done in America.

• 9:39Jen Cohen?

  But does it ever, do people ever get, like, I, I kind of joked around, like, I got nervous when I have, I am nervous. Because even the way you're sitting and the way you're so, you're so polite. And you know, you, you kind of know your Ps and Qs. It makes the other person feel more uncomfortable. Does anyone ever get uncomfortable with you?

• 9:57Speaker 02

  If, if you're nervous around me, then I'm doing something wrong.

• 10:00Jen Cohen?

  Oh, I'm not nervous around you, actually.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 10:01Jen Cohen?

  That's what's funny, though. You're not making me nervous. It's just the fact that you have that title in front of your name.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Yes, and, and because to me etiquette, and this is what I'm, how I'm trying to redefine etiquette. Etiquette, people think that etiquette is, it's really, they think it's very traditional, that it should be taught by, you know, a, a strict middle-aged lady with her hair in a bun, something and wearing a suit. And to me, etiquette is just about, it's about putting people around you at ease. That is really what the spirit of etiquette is. That people feel comfortable around you and then you feel comfortable around them. And that goes again back to human connection, human belonging, which is what makes us human.

• 10:35Jen Cohen?

  Because it's funny, because when you think about it, the people who have the most, the best manners, the most highly, I, I guess, they seem, they come across conservative or much more stuffy than the average person, right? Like, so there has to be a good balance of understanding human nature and like EQ, like having a good EQ to know how to make the other person feel comfortable.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. EQ and knowing how to read the air is what is what I talk about in my book.

• 11:01Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Right. When you go into a room and when you meet a new person, you can kind of pick up on the vibes. I guess is what you'd say in American culture. In China, we'd call it the qi, QI, the energy.

• 11:12Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  We read energy. And and so even for me, let's say if I'm, let's say we're sitting at a dining table, I'm speaking with you like this. Actually, out of this corner of my eye, I can see who's bored, who's shy, who's playing on their phone, who needs a top up for their wine glass, right? All these things. So having that self-awareness and sensitivity. And I think part of it is also, you know, the reason why I decided to target adults for my finishing school is because I believe that it it begins with upbringing. And the most beautiful gift a parent can give their child is good manners.

• 11:41Jen Cohen?

  I totally agree. I think one of the ugliest things is when a child has bad manners and they're at a table manners. Like, I I always notice those things. As I joke around about myself, I try to be much, I I'm very cognizant of those things for my own children. Because it does, it doesn't present well about, it says a lot about the person and the individual. But sometimes, don't you have to start young? Because if you're starting at, you're saying you're starting with people, young adults, so then they can teach their children, right?

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Actually, I'd start with mothers. So so yeah, so my my finishing school, it's for ladies. And many are mothers. So like ninety percent of my clients are mothers.

• 12:18Jen Cohen?

  So they can then teach their children.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:20Jen Cohen?

  Right?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Because they want to be role models for their children. And to me, that is the most important thing. And I do have some young adults, like actually, sometimes I have mothers and daughters because I have a hostess course for for married women and a debutante course for unmarried women. So sometimes I'll have a mother in hostess and then her daughter in my debutante class.

• 12:34Jen Cohen?

  Okay, so tell me, I'm so curious about this. Okay, so it's still happening, you still have this finishing school.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:39Jen Cohen?

  In China.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:41Jen Cohen?

  Okay, how many people are enrolled? Like, give, how long is the course? Is it a year? Do they live there? Like, not live there very long.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, okay, so I opened my Beijing school in two thousand thirteen, followed by a Shanghai school in two thousand fifteen. So at some point, I was between two cities. My co-founder Rebecca, who's my co-founder for my finishing school to this day. She's based in Beijing. And actually, she does, because now I'm traveling a lot and she she does most of the teaching now. In during covid, China had pretty stringent lockdowns. And and during that time, it was just impossible to hold a class to teach. And so I closed down both physical schools. And now we're so actually what we do now is when whenever we have classes, we have them in the Waldorf Astoria in Shanghai, for example. Or we work with different, we'll just choose different venues and different hotels to have to hold our courses in.

• 13:29Jen Cohen?

  And how long is a course?

• 13:30Speaker 02

  Well, the hostess course is ten days long.

• 13:32Jen Cohen?

  Oh, okay.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, so and then and then the debutante course is eight days long, but we also have weekend courses. And we also work with a lot of luxury brands to hold etiquette workshops for their VIPs, so for their customers.

• 13:44Jen Cohen?

  I love this. So you teach like, would would you do like how to set a table?

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Absolutely, we do.

• 13:50Jen Cohen?

  Like, what are the top?

• 13:51Speaker 02

  British afternoon tea, ta- table manners is the most popular and most practical course.

• 13:57Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I would imagine.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Right, because in China, everybody uses chopsticks, right?

• 14:02Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  And and and even western dining is a really new concept.

• 14:05Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 14:06Speaker 02

  That really just came about, I mean, in the nineties, it was a very, basically no western restaurants in China. And then in the two thousands, a couple started springing up. Now, every Michelin chef is going to China.

• 14:17Jen Cohen?

  Yes, I agree with you, and I know that to be true. What I actually love about how you present or how you even in your book. It's kind of like to me like a coffee table book. Where you don't have to read it all at once, like it's very, it's an easy read. And there's so many great tips, like you, there's a dating section, there's a table manners, there's, there's different sections. So like you can just pull and just read a little bit and then put it down and go back. It it's not, it's not sequential like that, right?

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Exactly, and it's it's a combination of anecdotes.

• 14:49Jen Cohen?

  A lot of anecdotes.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Tips, right, so each section is maybe one to two pages.

• 14:53Jen Cohen?

  Exactly, and it's like, like I said, an easier read, so I want to ask you a few questions, okay? So or go through a couple of things that I thought were very interesting. Let's just talk about, you said in the book, it takes eight positive encounters to change someone's negative impression of you. So can you just talk about that and how did you, how did, who figured that out? How do you know this to be true? Please just expand on that.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Uh, well, we need to dial it back to first impressions. And first impressions, some research says two minutes, some research says not even a second. Right? So somebody's forming a first impression of you within like, within a second of seeing you. So that's before you even speak, before you say anything. And usually, I mean, we want to make good first impressions. That's why it's so important. And whenever we make a negative, let's say if we have, if somebody forms a negative impression of us, then it takes, it's varying. So some people have said it takes a certain number of hours, uh, but generally speaking, they, everybody points to some Harvard research study that, you know, that doesn't really exist, that I haven't been able to find.

• 15:56Speaker 02

  And, but generally speaking, they say it's, it takes eight positive encounters to change a mind of somebody's negative, negative impression of you. So if, if you know that, then, right? Cause then it's, it's much better to make a good first impression. Rather than to, you know, than to make a bad impression and then have to work really hard to turn that around.

• 16:15Jen Cohen?

  Well, I thought also you, but you, you talk about, and this is, I, I, a lot of the things, or I think a lot of it also, if you have a higher EQ and you kind of are street smart, you kind of know this instinctually. But it's a great reminder. But, you know, a last, your last impression is actually more important than your first impression. Because that's what they, you leave with. And it's true, because when you think about it, no matter how much great stuff you've done, it's always the last thing that people always remember. Right? So it, I think, and it's also a name for it. And I don't remember that. Oh yeah. What was it? It's, um, oh gosh.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  The law of the last look, oh, the, the recency effect.

• 16:54Jen Cohen?

  The recency effect.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:56Jen Cohen?

  Which is, and so to me, like, let's talk about that, cause I think that is, people don't sometimes remember that to be true.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's funny. I mean, you could have been doing, you could have been performing consistently well at work, for example. And if you screw up, you know, the most recent project, then that's the recency effect, right? People, in people's minds, okay, well, but you, she screwed up the last project.

• 17:20Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  So the way to work around that is to then actively make good on a lot of projects in order To, you know, sort of move that, move the, move the bad project further down the line.

• 17:31Jen Cohen?

  Well, the way I see it is that that would be like the eight positive encounters or positive things. Like you have to work, like you said, like extra, extra hard to, to kind of compensate for those things.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 17:43Jen Cohen?

  Right? But I always, I always think about that. Like if I'm leaving a party or a meeting, yes, like you, you may, like the first impression, of course, that people have like a, they, they automatically like have a, a thought of who you are. But if you leave strong, I think that's more important because, and eye contact to me.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  And you, yeah. And you besides how many young people these days can, eye, eye contact is, it's an issue.

• 18:09Jen Cohen?

  Well, how can you even teach etiquette and manners to a generation when they're not even socializing anymore? They're always on their phone. It's tech, everything is technology driven. They've, they've lost even the baseline of socialization or interaction. So how could you teach people better etiquette? Do you then just like, do you shift and pivot to then technol, like, you know, app etiquette? How do you correspond? How do you socialize online? Is that what, are you learning those things to then help the new generation because of where we are in, in the world?

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Well, I think all of us at all generations are learning those things. We grapple with the digital world. And that's why at the end of every chapter, whether it's, you know, my social chapter, work, career, love and relationships, food and dining, at the end, there's always a subchapter. So I end every chapter with a subchapter that talks about the digital etiquette for these things. And I, I think that, you know, my, my Netflix show, Mind Your Manners was delayed because of COVID. So production was delayed because of COVID. It ended up coming out, out of COVID, which was end of twenty twenty two. But in many ways, I felt that that was more timely. Because coming out of COVID, everybody, right, had a bit of social anxiety. Our social skills are a bit rusty. We're feeling more isolated and alone than ever. And you have, we have this whole generation, like you said, where, I mean, they're going through a mental health crisis.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  And, and it absolutely is in line with social media and, and, and the digital age.

• 19:34Jen Cohen?

  You're right. So then, right, because people like, well.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Hiding behind screens.

• 19:39Jen Cohen?

  Hiding behind screens or like they can talk on a Zoom for a very finite period of time. Even dating, though, like, let's just talk about the relationship aspect. You know, like now, that's how people are meeting people is through online apps. So you talk, you have a whole, you have a whole area in the book about this. Can you just give us some proper etiquette for dating one O one in etiquette? Because there's so many crazy things that are happening with how people are communicating. What, what should they say? How much should they, you know, how much should they say? You know, like, are you supposed to wait three days before you sleep with somebody? Are you supposed to do this? Are, like, there's so much noise. Can you just break it down to the top five things that people should do? Well, or do, do when they're dating online?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the top five things people should be mindful of when dating, whether online or offline, is. First of all, for, for your first date, keep it casual. Right? Keep it casual and have it so that you can control the timeframe. Right? Don't sit down for a three course dinner. Have a coffee, take a walk in the park. Because if it's not working out, don't waste your time. Time is the most valuable thing in everybody's life right now. Right? And then, so you can control the time and then exit when you need to exit. Secondly, I would say the first three days of getting to know someone, but don't go too heavy. Like, wait till date three to see if you actually, when you get to know somebody or see if you're attracted to somebody. Because by date three, you kind of should know if you're attracted or not. Before digging into all of their personal history.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Right? Before, you know, asking about their exes, their divorce, or, you know, kids, et cetera, all that stuff. When it comes to sex, because you just mentioned, right? Ah, and so in the book, I say, wait for as long as you can stand it. Not that I'm saying a one night stand is bad. Hey, like, I don't judge. And I think everybody should have a bit of fun. But if you're looking for a serious relationship, then you should wait for as long as you can stand it. And actually, it'll be better.

• 21:29Jen Cohen?

  I totally, listen, I, I, I judge. I think that, like, people are just jumping into bed with any, but that's, that's, that's over, taken over, like, relationships now. People are not even having relationships. They're like, hooking up, they're having.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Situationships.

• 21:42Jen Cohen?

  Situationships. Like, to me, like, we're, we're, we've lost the ability, like I said, to like truly connect with people. Because we're just, everything's becoming very transactional. And I, I do find this to be like a big problem, but continue.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  And and then I would say that like for me, I had my best relationships when I was the best version of myself. And listen, all of our issues stem from childhood and there's no such thing as perfect parenting, right? So I think the sooner you can understand your own issues and the emotional damage from right your childhood. And the sooner you can work on that, whether it's reading self-help books, whether it's listening to podcasts, whether it's getting therapy, which I'm a huge proponent of, then and the sooner you can become the best version of yourself, you're like a mirror, you will attract, like you will attract the best partner that that you can attract.

• 22:35Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I I agree with that, of course, but I there's been a lot of like backlash now with like with within mental health. I was just reading this article about people are now relying on therapy so much where then you're just focusing only on your problems. Have you seen any of this research where it makes people actually it's actually increasing the level of anxiety and depression? Because you're basically you're constantly giving um, this is not about the etiquette, that this is just.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is super interesting.

• 23:05Jen Cohen?

  I found I found really interesting, you're you're kind of you're kind of just giving so much focus and attention to all the things that you the problems you have and labeling your problems as opposed to how it used to be like even like forty, thirty years ago when I was a kid. Right? And so that's and that and that's part of the reason why the mental health crisis has been kind of getting higher. Besides, of course, the comparison and social media and all of the other stuff and the inability to to socialize. But also then we're becoming very self-absorbed and coddled where then we're just become we're just focusing on ourselves twenty four hours a day. And it's actually becoming that it's it's the pendulum has swung too too far.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  That is really interesting and I can see that. I can see that we are becoming very coddled. So it's a fine balance.

• 23:53Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  And and it's a balance that, you know, I think I think we need to think critically for ourselves. You know, so so much of his herd mentality and we just jump on and that's cancel culture too as well, right?

• 24:03Jen Cohen?

  A hundred percent.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Just jumping on high balance screen, no accountability. What happened to thinking for yourself and thinking about what's important to you and thinking about what you want to do about it?

• 24:12Jen Cohen?

  You know, it's interesting that you just said that and I'm going to now segue it back to your book, not even on purpose, but because that's what I noticed when I was reading it. You did it. You said a couple of things that were contrary to what I would think that you would have said.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Like what? I love being contrarian.

• 24:28Jen Cohen?

  No, no, no, I was because you know, the whole like breaking up on text message works. That was one just easy example just to pull from because everyone's like, how it's not, it's not appropriate. How dare you? You're so rude. And so I, when I was reading this whole area about the dating and the relationships. And then you talked about actually breaking up with your boyfriend on a text message and how it's totally fine. And people should not be like saying that's bad etiquette. I was really impressed because of the reason behind it. Right? So I agree with you. I think that not everything has to be this way or that way. Because it's, it's like, it fits into a, a, a nice box. So I love, can you just tell the story? Actually, I love it.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  I'm sure my ex-boyfriend is. I very love it. But well, yeah, who knows? He blocked me, but.

• 25:13Jen Cohen?

  And by the way, just obviously you changed his name, right? Or no, you didn't?

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Oh, obviously. I, I kept the first letter the same. So, so any, any, any good anecdote, good story where it's a praise, I keep the real name. If it's a negative story, I change the name, but I keep the first letter as the same. So like, you know,

• 25:29Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, of course.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Sarah be Susie.

• 25:31Jen Cohen?

  A hundred percent. I love it. I love it. I love that. Okay. So tell us why. Okay. So explain that because.

• 25:37Speaker 02

  And of, and of course, I mean, it was a New York Times style profile that came out in January twenty twenty three. And when I, of course, they take the one thing that I say out of like a thirty six hour, you know, of them shadowing me. And they make that the headline.

• 25:51Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I love it. Of course they would. That's of course, right?

• 25:54Speaker 02

  So when I saw it, I, I cringed. And then I sent it to my cousin, Adrian, who I'm, I'm closest with. And she, and when she saw it, you know, she was like, OMG. Uh, and I was dying and, and you know, I, I mean, I really wanted to post it on Instagram or, you know, or social media. Cause it's a New York Times style profile and I love the photo. And everything else about the article was great. And I was like, ah. And then 10 minutes later, when Adrian finished, she finished reading the article, she was like, you know what? It's the perfect title because it talks about how etiquette is contextual. And so saying, you know, the etiquette guru who broke up with her boyfriend over texts, like it's contextual. And now I embrace title and that ex, his friend sent me the title along with comments like, what a title.

• 26:39Jen Cohen?

  Right, right, right. Well, actually, listen, I think it works because I think life is contextual, right? Everything in life is contextual. And if you are in a terrible relationship and you get the courage in that moment to do it, then just do it. The problem is, is it ever, like, in your case, it obviously stepped, you know, stuck, but a lot of times people go back and forth anyway, it doesn't.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Well, you know, we were on again, off again.

• 26:59Jen Cohen?

  Oh, okay.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  And, and because he was in, I, I knew, you know, I was, he was very insecure and controlling. And so I'm, I was, it was day nine of shooting my Netflix show. I was like, here I am telling my students to live their best lives. And over here, I have this needy and controlling boyfriend who's making me cry all, all the time and show up on set with puffy eyes.

• 27:16Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  And so I was like, you know what? Like, this is it. Like, we're done. And at that point, I was maybe thirty four, thirty four years old. And you think like, oh, it's some cost fallacy, right? We learned this in Harvard Business School. It's like, oh, I invested four years in this relationship already, and I'm already this age. Like, maybe, maybe I should just stay with it because who knows? Like, it's hard to meet somebody these days. Literally, when I sent that text, I was prepared to be single for the rest of my life. I was like, I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than be in a relationship that makes me unhappy. I felt as free as a bird, often just cutting it off. I, it was, and I think I needed something as an intense, as intense and overwhelming as a shooting a Netflix show to push me to make that decision because I literally didn't have an ounce, not even like a millimeter of space for anything that was not adding value to my life.

• 28:01Jen Cohen?

  Good.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  And then I spent the next day, we're shooting my show, went, flew back to China where I spent Christmas Day and New Year's Eve in a, in a fourteen day hotel quarantine because it was COVID lockdown, all that stuff. Popped out of quarantine, had a first date with my, my now husband. Seven, seven months later was legally wedded.

• 28:18Jen Cohen?

  Are you kidding?

• 28:19Speaker 02

  I'm so happy. Like, I, every, every day, I thank my husband for being such an incredible husband to me. So supportive, so kind, so letting me be myself.

• 28:30Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. How did you meet him?

• 28:31Speaker 02

  We met years ago at some event that I hosted at one of my finishing schools. Once you have a space, physical space, you always have to activate it.

• 28:39Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  So every week I'd have a couple of events, non etiquette related. Each event would be like forty, fifty people. And so he had my business card, but he never reached out to me until like, you know, twenty twenty-three. Oh, no, twenty twenty-two, twenty twenty-two. Yeah.

• 28:53Jen Cohen?

  Wow, and then she went out and like, and like, is he also similar to you or?

• 28:58Speaker 02

  He doesn't speak a word of English.

• 28:59Jen Cohen?

  Are you serious?

• 29:01Speaker 02

  So I, you know, I feel like.

• 29:02Jen Cohen?

  Where does he live? You say he lives in Beijing?

• 29:04Speaker 02

  He lives in Shanghai.

• 29:04Jen Cohen?

  Shanghai, right.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  And, and I feel like I have this double life because I'm, I obviously I grew up very comfortable with the West. I went into, I went to Philip's Exeter, I speak English.

• 29:13Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  And, but at the same time, and I had to learn Mandarin. And then I went over there and I, and then I had to like open my etiquette school and teach customers who did not speak a word of English. I had to hire staff who didn't speak English, right? So I literally like, I had to really localize. And to this day, that is one of the, my like achievements that I'm most proud of.

• 29:34Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  That when I speak Mandarin, I speak it so fluently and with such an accent that the locals don't believe I'm not a local.

• 29:42Jen Cohen?

  Wow, are you serious? That's like, isn't that the most difficult language to learn?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  One of, yeah, it's really, really, really difficult. So, so, and people will say, oh, what do you mean you're from Hong Kong? You must just have gotten Hong Kong passport. I'm like, no, no, like I had to learn Mandarin later on in life. And they say that's not possible because your Mandarin is too good.

• 30:01Jen Cohen?

  So what languages do you speak then? English, Mandarin?

• 30:04Speaker 02

  English, I speak Cantonese because in Hong Kong we grew up speaking Cantonese.

• 30:07Jen Cohen?

  Cantonese, yeah.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  I studied French and German, but in Hong Kong I went to a German school. So I speak German and French, uh, and then Mandarin.

• 30:13Jen Cohen?

  So, so he doesn't, what does he do back in Shanghai?

• 30:16Speaker 02

  He's, so he, he, he does real estate.

• 30:18Jen Cohen?

  So this is what's interesting, okay, so first of all, you didn't even, I didn't ask you yet because I guess I was nervous at the beginning. Not because of you, but because like how you're, you know, I'm just trying to mirror what you're, how you're sitting and all these little things. How did you even get the Netflix show?

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:35Jen Cohen?

  Let's start with that because like, how did that even, like, how did they even know of you? I mean, you said there's a lot of like charm schools in the US.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  I don't know how many right now, but back then it was a thing. But what happened was a production studio in, based in Singapore that called Beach House Productions. They found me, they cold emailed me, they emailed my info at, you know, whatever email.

• 30:56Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  In two thousand eighteen.

• 30:59Jen Cohen?

  Oh.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  And and then asked me if they could pitch me as an idea to some streaming platforms and Netflix bought the show.

• 31:06Jen Cohen?

  So what and so what year did Netflix buy it? It was two thousand twenty.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, it was before covid and we were supposed to go into production, but then covid hit. And then that put a spanner in the works. And then we ended up shooting end of two thousand twenty one in Sydney.

• 31:20Jen Cohen?

  And how many episodes did you do?

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Six episodes, so season one, six episodes.

• 31:24Jen Cohen?

  So then your partner, she didn't want to do the show with you or does she in the show or what's the?

• 31:30Speaker 02

  No, she's she's not on the show. She stayed in China. You know, she has a family in China. And she so she was just, she never expressed interest and Netflix never asked and it wasn't.

• 31:39Jen Cohen?

  So were you doing?

• 31:39Speaker 02

  If if we shot in China, she'd probably be in it just because, right, like it.

• 31:42Jen Cohen?

  No, no, makes sense.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  But then at that time, they could only get me a visa to go to Australia. Australia is very strict with covid at that time.

• 31:49Jen Cohen?

  It was very strict.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Even Australians couldn't get into Australia.

• 31:51Jen Cohen?

  I I remember. Do you remember that whole thing?

• 31:53Speaker 02

  They were pissed.

• 31:53Jen Cohen?

  Novak with the tennis player?

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Yes, Djokovic.

• 31:57Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, Djokovic. But then, OK, so before you got the Netflix show.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:02Jen Cohen?

  And I I know you already had, you already had the finishing schools. Were you around doing expert, like, were you?

• 32:08Speaker 02

  No, I was just in China.

• 32:10Jen Cohen?

  You weren't an etiquette expert on like TV shows or doing anything, building plans in China, but not anywhere else.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was. I was crazy busy just focusing on China, but I I got a lot of overseas media interviews.

• 32:23Jen Cohen?

  So people are interesting. So people did kind of know who you were in your space.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  In two thousand thirteen, Forbes, I was one of Forbes' Twelve Women to Watch. Two thousand fifteen, BBC, I was on their like list of one hundred women. I mean.

• 32:35Jen Cohen?

  So how did they know of you? Like, how did this?

• 32:37Speaker 02

  Because I it was, you know, really just word of mouth because I never, there was five years when I started my business. I never even came back to America. Because I was so busy. I was literally like, my weekends were the busiest. When people had time off was when I was busy. I was teaching all the time. I would fly all over China, so not just in our schools, but I would fly to like Chongqing, Xi'an, Fujian, all these places. I was doing like three cities a week to teach and it was just, I mean, it was exhausting.

• 33:04Jen Cohen?

  So you were actually one of the people teaching. Your schools.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, cuz we're a boutique school and we don't have a lot. We have three teachers. Uh, but we had a lot of like, we'd bring a lot of experts, like styling experts. We'd have, uh, you know, well, Rebecca's, you know, a wine expert. We'd have, we have an art expert to all these things.

• 33:23Jen Cohen?

  To teach their own modality, right?

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 33:25Jen Cohen?

  So what would be your modality that you would teach?

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Well, the thing I love most is ta- western table manners.

• 33:31Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  That's what I absolutely loved. And it was probably the, one of the, yeah, like the highlight classes that students really love too.

• 33:38Jen Cohen?

  Can you get, okay, so if you say, let's, because you just said table manners, like, give me a few top, besides, like.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Do's and don'ts?

• 33:44Jen Cohen?

  Like, yeah, do's and don'ts. But, but not so obvious ones, like the, like I know, put the napkin on your lap, like the way you say, like, double the napkin and. Give me some other ones that aren't so obvious that people do regularly that we should maybe stop doing.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, so don't hold your knife like a pen. You'd be surprised how many people do that. They hold their knife like a pen.

• 34:06Jen Cohen?

  Okay, like this? Don't do this?

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Well, when you write, it's like, you'd be surprised, a lot of people hold their knife like a pen.

• 34:13Jen Cohen?

  Okay, how to, show us how to hold it.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  The way you held it is correct, like this.

• 34:17Jen Cohen?

  Oh, really?

• 34:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:18Jen Cohen?

  Versus?

• 34:18Speaker 02

  So versus like, cutting like this.

• 34:21Jen Cohen?

  Okay, okay.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Alright, so.

• 34:23Jen Cohen?

  So I was right. See there, Amanda, I was right. There you go. Okay, go ahead.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  And, and so, okay, so here, here's something that people may not always know. So when you're at a restaurant, when the waiter gives you a menu and you've made your decision, you should close the menu. Because that is a signal to the waiter that you've already made your decision and he can approach you. If your menu still stays open, he thinks that you haven't made your decision yet. He thinks you're still deciding.

• 34:45Jen Cohen?

  Yes, that makes sense.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  And, and will not come by.

• 34:48Jen Cohen?

  Okay, that's a good one.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  And let's say you started eating, you picked up your cutlery, you're starting eating. And you want to take a sip of water, right? You need to put your cutlery down, but this is a rest, right? Then your cutlery should be in an upside down V shape on your plate.

• 35:02Jen Cohen?

  Upside down V shape.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Like this is a V?

• 35:05Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  If your plate is round, it should be like this.

• 35:08Jen Cohen?

  Right, cuz that that was the one thing I was gonna say at the beginning. She would get so mad at me because where where I place my cutlery after I eat.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Like, did you put that half on the table, half on the plate? That's a big no-no.

• 35:19Jen Cohen?

  I don't remember how, but she's like screamed at me over it. I don't remember. How are you supposed to put your cutlery after you eat?

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Where, where's the place? It should be, they should be parallel, like right next to each other, parallel, and they should stay on the plate. And they can be like in a six o'clock.

• 35:34Jen Cohen?

  Okay, that sounds okay. I think that's what she said. Okay. And so, okay, give me a few other ones.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Um, oh, here's a fun one. So when you, let's say if you're a woman and you have lipstick on, right? And you're drinking from your wine glass. Well, you do not want to drink around the rim of your wine glass cuz that will leave stains all over your wine glass. It'll just look really bad. Make sure you're just drinking from the same one place.

• 36:00Jen Cohen?

  That's a good one. I like that one. That's a good one. Oh, another one you said, which I didn't realize. Cuz this is, I think people do this all the time. When you are having a dinner, you're going to, you're sitting, you're sitting at a table. People always assume that the host should get the best seat, but it's actually the guest that should get the best.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  The guest of honor. Yeah, well, yeah, if it's just, yeah, if it's just you two, the host and the guest, it should be the guest who should get the best seat, best seat, exactly. And so, for example, let's say if you're in a restaurant and there's a banquet, let's say there's like one, there's one chair that's with its back against the wall. Let's say that, right, there's one, let's say there's one chair facing a wall, there's one chair facing the room. Then the better seat is the one facing the room, and you should give that to your guest.

• 36:41Jen Cohen?

  That makes sense, but how about at the head of the table? Should that not be the host?

• 36:45Speaker 02

  It depends if you're seating French style or English style. So let's say the table is rectangular. And English style would place the host and hostess at the ends of the table. French style would place host and hostess at the middle of the, of the long table.

• 36:59Jen Cohen?

  Oh.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  So there's so there's a difference between French style and English style. And usually, French style is reserved for a big party. So if it's like a twenty person dinner, or even more like a state dinner, right? If, let's say, King Charles is hosting a state dinner, then usually the host and hostess sit in the middle of the long table. That way, all the VIPs that sit near the host and hostess can speak to each other. And then the less important you are, the further away from the middle you you sit. And then English style is reserved for a small, like at home, for example, a dinner of six people, eight people, ten people. And the host and hostess are at the ends of the table, and then the VIPs are next to them. And then the less important people are towards the middle of the table. So everybody feels cocooned. But this this works for small dinners.

• 37:42Jen Cohen?

  I love that. Okay. So I didn't even get to any of my questions, but even like how you you position your feet, right? I saw something that if your feet are in a V position, does that make it's you it's your your closed, you're open? What does this mean?

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, body language is a big part.

• 37:58Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  This is a non-verbal communication, right? So let's so actually, if I'm at a if I'm, let's say, at a gathering or a so- social function, sometimes I'll I'll I'll sit or I'll, you know, stand with my hands like this and my palms facing up. Because actually, when you show your palm, it's it's an open gesture. It's an open gesture. Whereas if it's like this, and this is a closed gesture, right? I mean, this we all know, right? Right? So so even just small and and so if you're standing, if you're standing and your like feet are all like tangled up, then that's kind of closed. But if you're if you're like, you know, if your feet are relaxed like that, comfortable, in ballet, it's the fifth position.

• 38:36Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  The the V, and it's just an open, an open gesture.

• 38:41Jen Cohen?

  Is there any, give me some other ones that people don't know in terms of body language? We we all we all know this one and this. Give us some other ones that maybe are not so obvious.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, he- here's a fun thing that's history related. The history behind shaking hands, why do humans shake hands? It's to show that we don't have weapons in our hands. That that like was the beginning of shaking hands. Toasting, toasting wine. I mean, now we just raise our glass, right? But back then, people would really, you know, really like go at it. And then wine would fly around into each other's cups. And why was that? To show that the host had not poisoned their guest's wine. That was the purpose of toasting.

• 39:21Jen Cohen?

  So why do we still do it? Do we need to?

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Because hundreds of years of tradition. And so and and and now it's still it's still a nice gesture to toast, to welcome someone or to kick off an event or to, you know, it's just to have that is nice.

• 39:34Jen Cohen?

  What do you think of a fist pump? Because I feel like now people are not

• 39:37Speaker 02

  With Covid.

• 39:38Jen Cohen?

  With Covid, they're not shaking their hands, they're doing the fist pump.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's fine. But hey, listen, we just went through three years of the first ever kind of event in the world that affected literally the whole world. So we change with the times and etiquette should be updated with the times.

• 39:54Jen Cohen?

  So what are some things that have shifted and changed since you were young? And that what you like? What are some things that are very current etiquette wise since after Covid? That were not part of the etiquette system or protocol before?

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Uh, so I mean, the one that you just mentioned handshake is is a big thing.

• 40:17Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  Uh, let's see. I would say, so here's something funny. In Asia, whenever you are sick, you wear a mask. That was always the case before Covid. So if you see an Asian person wearing a mask, it usually means because they they're they have a sniffle and they don't want to give it to you.

• 40:35Jen Cohen?

  Oh.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Very different from the West where it's like, okay, I'm going to wear it to protect myself.

• 40:41Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  In Asia, it was more of a sign of respect where I'm I'm have a cold. I don't want to pass on my office, thus I'm going to wear a mask.

• 40:48Jen Cohen?

  Well, I thought, though, people in Asia were wearing masks for many, many years because they didn't want to get sick. Um. I thought was kind of smart.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. It wasn't, it definitely was not as widespread. And in China at least, it's more you wear a mask because you were sick and you don't wanna, and in Japan as well, you don't wanna pass that on to somebody else. But now, wearing a mask is much more commonplace. Now, when I fly around America, I see Americans wearing masks.

• 41:11Jen Cohen?

  Do you wear a mask? Cause you, no.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  It depends. It really depends. I mean, I, when I flew back from New York to Hong Kong, I, on that flight, I got COVID and then I gave it to my dad, who ended up in hospital. And he made it okay, but after that, that made me a lot more careful. So if I'm about to see an old person, and then I, then I try to, you know, protect myself so that I don't get anything to pass on to an old person.

• 41:33Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, that makes sense. So in terms of like etiquette for, you know, post-COVID, 2024 now, give us some other ones besides a fist pump or, you know, is there anything you could think of?

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Well, I would say that if you were really sick, if you've come down with something, then it's better to excuse yourself from a social gathering than to show up coughing and sneezing all over the other guests.

• 41:55Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I think.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  It's also, it's also, oh, you'd be surprised, but it's also a really handy way to cancel last minute.

• 42:02Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, it's always, that and kids, you know, there's what you.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. So let's say like you want it, you're single, you don't have the kid excuse.

• 42:10Jen Cohen?

  I know, you can use that excuse.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 42:13Jen Cohen?

  You know, you can.

• 42:21Jen Cohen?

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• 43:06Jen Cohen?

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• 43:53Jen Cohen?

  Okay, this is what I wanted to ask you because I'm a very curious person, right? Just by nature, not because, I mean, the podcast is just an evolution of a natural thing for me to do, considering I ask a ton of questions on a good day without a microphone. What is your opinion, in your opinion, what is the difference between being curious and being intrusive?

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Hmm, I think it's also contextual. If we were in Asia and somebody saw you and they said, oh, you've gained weight, or, oh, you've lost weight, or, oh, are you dating anyone out? When are you getting married? These are actually signs of care. And, and, and I, if, if, let's say I saw a friend in China and the first thing said, oh, you've gained weight. I actually would not be offended. I would not be offended because it's a way of showing they notice you.

• 44:34Jen Cohen?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  They care, right?

• 44:36Jen Cohen?

  In the West, if they said that, my God, they would be like slitting their throat and like, you know, and.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. People either take it extremely personally, or they would just think very poorly of you.

• 44:46Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Right? And, and so that's why it's very contextual. There is, there is no right or wrong. It's contextual.

• 44:52Jen Cohen?

  See, the way I look at it is that you can get away with anything. If you, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  I completely agree, and I say that in my book as well. And people think that etiquette is one big no. They think it's limiting. I have friends who tell me, oh, I, I have terrible etiquette. I'm too honest to have good etiquette. And I'm like, then you don't really understand the essence of etiquette.

• 45:11Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  And when, when I say etiquette should be empowering and enabling, you can get what. You want, you can ask for what you want, you can set boundaries, you can go speak to the person you want to speak to. It's all about how you do it.

• 45:23Jen Cohen?

  See, that's exactly it. Like, so when I was, when I like, when I was teasing about, you know, this whole unbad etiquette. It was really what I was really referring to, or like the table matters because my friend always bothers me about it because of those things. Or like the way, or just in terms of being very ladylike, like just even looking at you, you know, like, I know you're going to say, well, I'm not, then you're not doing a good job. But that's not true. I just think, is there some part of it, like you, like, I feel like I'm a bull in a china shop. That's just my personality. I'm like, I'm more, I'm like louder, I'm more aggressive, I'm more like, I'm more like, I'm, I'm, you know what I mean? I'm more of a.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  It's, it's also cultural, right? I mean, Americans are kind of known, you know.

• 46:07Jen Cohen?

  No, I'm not American, I'm Canadian, by the way.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Well, North American, I mean, it's kind of.

• 46:13Jen Cohen?

  It's exactly, that's true, Americans for sure, but also it's person, personality driven. And you're right, like American, Canadian, that's what I was saying, like, it would be really hard, like, I feel awkward when I'm too formal. Like, I don't even know how to wear high heels properly without looking like a, like a jerk off, because I'm not walking properly. You know what I mean? Because I don't feel myself.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  And you know what's actually very funny is that when, when I'm in China, I come across as like much more strong, more aggressive. Because I'm, but it's funny because in America, people may not necessarily say that about me. But in China, I am, and that goes to show you again, like the contextual of it.

• 46:54Jen Cohen?

  Or you're a really good chameleon because you've learned to adapt because of your background and your training on etiquette. You know how to walk in and.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Adjust, it's just, and it's like subconscious, you know, it's even subconscious. And I remember like, so for example, I mean, when I'm in America or I speak with an American, my American accent comes out. But when I'm with an English person or somebody with a UK accent, then I sound more English. And in fact, when I read in my audiobook, I sound more English. And only, and I always wondered, ah, why don't I do that? Like, I can't even help myself. And what somebody told me years ago was they said, it's it's actually, it's a form of good manners because you're trying to speak in a way to let the other person understand you better.

• 47:36Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  Subconsciously. So you're subconsciously switching over to that.

• 47:40Jen Cohen?

  Absolutely. But I do notice that like my friends from London are so, they seem so much more pristine and and cultured because of the way they they speak and the way they sound. And also, growing up in Europe, what happens is you get access, like you travel through Europe and you much more, you you do get more culture that way. Because you go to Italy, goes to Spain, you go to like London, you you fly around, you you learn more about other people's nationalities and cultures, which then helps kind of refine you a little bit better.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  But also, UK culture, I mean, that it's, you know, silence is golden. So people like quiet time and, you know, there's a culture of never complain, never explain, right? So I mean, it's just, it's very, it's very different. Whereas American culture is like, speak up for yourself, like complain if you want to, right?

• 48:33Jen Cohen?

  Well, you said, hold on a second. I actually was gonna tell you, the talking culture's versi- versing, like versus the listening culture.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 48:41Jen Cohen?

  So there is a big difference between that, right? Like, I liked it. You said something, this is a great little trick. Because we were just talking about the art of silence in a conversation. You used to mute the phone when you were at, I guess.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  I still do. If I'm if I'm not speaking on the phone or on Zoom, I will mute myself. And only when the other person finished speaking, then I unmute. So my sort of resting face is mute, basically. Like, I'm always on mute unless I'm speaking.

• 49:08Jen Cohen?

  That's a great tip because then you don't interrupt somebody.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then you don't have any background noise, right? Like an ambulance passing by or if somebody's in the house, right? That you're not distracting the other person. Because if the other person on the phone hears some distraction, they're gonna be distracted.

• 49:21Jen Cohen?

  It's so true. And you know, again, these are things that common sense that you just don't realize in the moment until you get reminded. Because when you speak on that, when I talk to people, and you can tell if I'm talking to my friend in New York or wherever, and I hear bustling on the streets and ambulances, like, I'm annoyed because I can feel that they can't, how can they hear, hear and listen to me if I can hear all that noise? So that is a really good psychological thing to be do, trick, because then the other person feels like they've been heard and listened to as well.

• 49:55Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 49:55Jen Cohen?

  And it stops you from interrupting if you're somebody who interrupts a lot. Right? Saying that for a friend. So that, so.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  We all have a friend who's saying that.

• 50:03Jen Cohen?

  Right, right, exactly. So then, like, you could, let me, I want to go back a bit. So because before you opened up these finishing schools, you went to Harvard Business School, you went like, you're obviously a very business savvy, smart person. What would you have done, by the way, if it wasn't for this? Is there anything, did you, because you went to, you were at Goldman Sachs, you said, right?

• 50:24Speaker 02

  I was at Perella Weinberg.

• 50:25Jen Cohen?

  Oh, excuse me, sorry.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Uh, so, so basically, I interned for Morgan Stanley this summer of my, before my senior year in investment banking in Hong Kong. When I graduated, I moved to New York City and I worked for Perella Weinberg, which was the two founders, Joe Perella and Peter Weinberg, one came from Morgan Stanley, the other came from Goldman Sachs.

• 50:43Jen Cohen?

  Oh, okay.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:44Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. And then, what would you have done? Like, were you gonna, were you very entrepreneurial? Because I know now you have your own line of, what do you call it?

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, intimate wellness.

• 50:53Jen Cohen?

  Intimate wellness. Were you always someone who thought to be an entrepreneur, to like, start your own schools, to do all these things? Or were you going more of a corporate route? Like, what was your plan?

• 51:03Speaker 02

  When I was graduating from Harvard Business School and trying to think about what I wanted to do, I basically narrowed my choice down by geography. And I thought, at that time, China was becoming, was at that point, a global power in 2012, with a lot of eyes on China, so it was becoming the second power, you know, second to America. And it was very exciting. And I'd lived in Beijing as a volunteer for a nonprofit before I went to Harvard Business School. So I spent one year there. And I thought, me as a Hong Kong Chinese person, I really wanted to go, you know, experience this and be part of China and see what I could do. And so that was how I made my choice. I never considered anything else. You know, I'm very much a here and now kind of person. I never really think about, ah, what would I be doing otherwise? And in my mind, I was like, I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna make it happen, and it's gonna work.

• 51:49Jen Cohen?

  So like, where else can you go with being an etiquette expert? You wrote your first book, you have the show on Netflix. I would think, because this is my business brain, what you would have done would do a line of, you know,

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Martha Stewart.

• 52:02Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, tableware stuff, exactly. That's the obvious play, right?

• 52:07Speaker 02

  Yes. Okay, so here's the thing. Everything I've done in my career has been across two realms. One is East meets West. The other one is female empowerment, helping women move through the world with confidence. And

• 52:21Jen Cohen?

  Great spin, I love it.

• 52:22Speaker 02

  And so, you know, and so two years ago, when I was hanging out with my now co-founder for my, for Anti-Voata, my intimate wellness business, when we were hanging out and we were thinking, you know, we want to do something that we're really passionate about and that can, can, that, you know, can bring the best of Chinese culture and traditional Chinese medicine, which actually is her family business. So she's Taiwanese. Her grandpa founded his first traditional Chinese medicine, TCM clinic, in Taiwan in the 1940s. That's operating to this day by her cousins. So it was passed down, because it's her maternal grandmother and Taiwan's very patriarchal. It was always passed down to the son, the son's son. And so she grew up with this, you know, in her family business. She went to U. Chicago, so she's very Americanized like me.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  And then she moved to Shanghai and she, she worked for some very exquisite luxury women's wear brands where she was CEO. So she was CEO of Stella McCartney for Asia Pacific.

• 53:15Jen Cohen?

  Oh.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  For five years, managing hundreds of people.

• 53:18Jen Cohen?

  Wow, these are Stella McCartney?

• 53:19Speaker 02

  I know, I actually noticed that.

• 53:21Jen Cohen?

  Oh.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  And then, and then she was CEO of Asia Pacific for Diesel Jeans for, as well. And when we were meeting up, and actually even before that, she was GM of Shanghai Tang, which is gorgeous, exquisite Chinese brand. It was under Richemont, Shanghai Tang.

• 53:35Jen Cohen?

  Shanghai, oh wow, okay, yes.

• 53:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that was where, you know, she began early days. And, and then we were sitting down and we've always exchanged TCM wellness tips. And she's like, you know, I'm so, I'm so bored at my job, I'm not learning anything new. I, I don't feel like I'm doing something that's meaningful to me. I really care about life sciences. She wrote a PhD in neuroscience, by the way.

• 53:58Jen Cohen?

  She sounds like a real loser this.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and she's five eleven.

• 54:00Jen Cohen?

  Oh, God. What's her name?

• 54:02Speaker 02

  Annie, Annie Hope.

• 54:03Jen Cohen?

  Oh, my God. Okay.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  So, so, and you know, me being going to my sort of etiquette makeover mode, I was like, then I was like, well, if you don't like your life, then do something, then change your career. Do something that's meaningful to you.

• 54:15Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  And she's like, yeah, that's a good idea. What do you think I should do? And, and then, and then as we were thinking about this, like what we both loved, what we were passionate about, what we grew up with, we grew up with herbal remedies, her because of her family business, me. Cause in Hong Kong, you know, I grew up with acupuncture, herbal soups, all these things, cause my parents were really into it.

• 54:34Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 54:35Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, and, and then, and then she, and we were, we realized that like in TCM, a woman's health begins in her ovaries. So of your female reproductive health system, it, like, that's like, that is the most important thing. And if that's good, then the rest of your body is good, basically.

• 54:51Jen Cohen?

  So not like in the US, it's about the gut, the microgut. Yes, okay, this is different.

• 54:57Speaker 02

  Very different.

• 54:58Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  And, you know, in, in, in the east, it's about prevention. The west, western, so eastern medicine is about prevention, western medicine is about treatment. It's about that quick fix, instantaneous, which I think is a fundamental problem in, in, in how we approach health in the west. And I've grown up with both, and I use both. So, for example, you know, two months ago, I did the pernuvo scan, and it was amazing.

• 55:19Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  Right, but I also get my weekly acupuncture and cupping and all that stuff as well.

• 55:24Jen Cohen?

  Right, right, right.

• 55:25Speaker 02

  Even when I'm traveling.

• 55:26Jen Cohen?

  You said that, you said it helps your traveling.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it helps me stay regular on my menstrual cycle, because.

• 55:31Jen Cohen?

  The acupuncture does.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  Acupuncture does. It's, it's the only thing that, and in fact, this morning I met a, I was at a beauty store, and the girl behind the counter was also telling me she does acupuncture every week, cause it's the only thing that, and she's white, never been to China. And she was saying it's the only thing that keeps her, that keeps her regular. And a Georgetown girlfriend of mine, who I saw in New York, she said it when she was thirty four, she, she stopped her, she didn't have her period for a year. She decided to go see an acupuncturist, it came the next day. The next day, the next day. So I mean, like it's and now acupuncture for women trying to conceive.

• 56:04Jen Cohen?

  Oh, I heard that.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  It is like one of it's like the number one thing every woman in America is doing now in in Europe for fertility. Right? So I mean.

• 56:12Jen Cohen?

  Also, they say N A D is very helpful. Do you know what N A D is?

• 56:15Speaker 02

  It's like that Western chemical.

• 56:18Jen Cohen?

  It's basically a molecule. It's basically your body stops producing it as you age.

• 56:22Speaker 02

  Is that the like, so the longevity thing?

• 56:23Jen Cohen?

  It's for, yeah, yeah. Behind you actually called Tru Niagen, but that wasn't actually, I wasn't, I wasn't, yeah.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  I've heard of it. I've heard of Tru Niagen.

• 56:30Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, it's it's a fantastic, they basically, it's the precursor, what means that you take it and it helps your body produces. N A D, but I wasn't bringing it up to promote them even, I was actually bringing it up because there's all this research or talking about fertility. There's just so many people who've said that when they started to take N A D, like either through an I V or through supplements or whatever. It is literally was like the the switch that made them.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 56:59Jen Cohen?

  Be able to, yeah, that's why when you're saying that it's a huge, huge, huge thing.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 57:03Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. And there's a woman named, she's like called a fertility egg whisperer, a doctor, Amy, I don't remember, but I'm digressing, but.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:12Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. So for women out there who are, yeah, N A D, Tru Niagen is like, it's been shown in tons of clinical trials. So, yeah. Anyway, that wasn't what we're talking about, but I wanted to, you were saying acupuncture.

• 57:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 57:27Jen Cohen?

  What else is acupuncture, in your opinion, really good for?

• 57:30Speaker 02

  So so the top three things that Americans go to acupuncture for are mental health.

• 57:34Jen Cohen?

  Mm hmm.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  Where you put, so whether it's sleep or migraines or just anxiety, you put the needles in the head.

• 57:40Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 57:40Speaker 02

  And you will sleep like a baby. Like needles in the head that night will make me sleep so well.

• 57:45Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 57:46Speaker 02

  The second thing Americans go to acupuncture for is digestion, so digestive issues. Honestly, all that ice, drinking cold things is not good for your digestive system. That's why I brought my flask of hot water. Right? Even Europeans Europeans do not drink stuff with ice.

• 58:00Jen Cohen?

  I could not agree with you more. I can't, I'm always about room temperature or hot too.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:06Jen Cohen?

  There's like also air, I, uh, air, I, uh, Ira.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  Ira, Ira.

• 58:10Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  Also thousands of years of history, just like TCM.

• 58:13Jen Cohen?

  Right? Because I, I'm, I'm so on this train with you, I think, cause that's so much more for your digestive system. Cold, like, I feel like.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  It shocks your system.

• 58:22Jen Cohen?

  It shocks your system.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  And it, if, if you want to go to the bathroom, do number two in the morning, the first thing you should do is drink a big glass of hot water when you wake up.

• 58:31Jen Cohen?

  So I drink room temperature water with lemon, but maybe, I, do you think it would be even more effective?

• 58:36Speaker 02

  Yes, hot, hot water, like that helps your digestive system going.

• 58:41Jen Cohen?

  So what I do is I drink, I, I drink hot tea after my hot, my, my room temperature water.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's good too. That's great.

• 58:47Jen Cohen?

  What is the difference? Cause I know that you always talk about the, well, not always, but like the water with the hot water and ginger could for digestion. What about mint? Isn't mint supposed to be like hot water with mint leaves? Is that not good for digestion?

• 58:58Speaker 02

  No, they are that, yeah, that's, that's good too. Ginger is, ginger has warming properties. It's particularly good for women.

• 59:05Jen Cohen?

  Oh, okay.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  And, and so, and so, and it's also just good to get your energy going.

• 59:09Jen Cohen?

  How much ginger are you putting in there? Cause I don't think I've put it down.

• 59:12Speaker 02

  Three slices.

• 59:13Jen Cohen?

  Oh, that's it?

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Three thick slices is fine. You can, you can adjust as much as you want. The only thing is don't take ginger at night. Cause it'll affect your sleep. Cause ginger get, it, it actually helps with circulation. So for, particularly for people who have, who get cold easily, who have cold hands, cold feet. And, or in the wintertime, like the first thing in the morning, you have ginger. And you can have it up to maybe like afternoon, but in the evening, don't have too much ginger. It'll affect your sleep because it gets your metabolism going, right?

• 59:37Jen Cohen?

  Does it?

• 59:37Speaker 02

  Yes, ginger does. It gets you, that's, that's how it warms you up.

• 59:41Jen Cohen?

  So this is, I mean, you're not even an acupuncturist or a doctor.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  Oh, this is like, this is like the most basic thing that all Chinese people know about, about, about foods. TCM, there's a diet therapy and you know each food, whether it's cooling or warming and what, exactly what it does to your body.

• 59:58Jen Cohen?

  So that's why you walk around with the flask of hot water, which I'm gonna now start, that's a great one.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:03Jen Cohen?

  And so you're taking the skin off the ginger, correct?

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:00:06Jen Cohen?

  You don't?

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  I'm lazy.

• 1:00:08Jen Cohen?

  You could just put it in like that?

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  I mean, you wash it.

• 1:00:11Jen Cohen?

  Well, yeah.

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, yeah. And then just stick it in. It's easy. So it's great. I mean, ideally, if you're at home, you could put three slices of ginger in a pot of hot water and you boil it. And that really like, you know, gets the good stuff out. But hey, if I'm like, I'm on the go, I'm right? If I'm staying in a hotel, like I, I don't have time to do that. So, but the most important thing is the hot water.

• 1:00:31Jen Cohen?

  No, I agree with you. The hot water is like the key, the key. The cold, I don't ever understand. People have iced what this I.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  In the winter, like I just came from New York City, like, I mean, all this iced water in the winter?

• 1:00:43Jen Cohen?

  I know. I, I, I don't understand that. So then, okay, go back. So you and your, you and your girlfriend decided that, well, you said, everything starts with your ovaries.

• 1:00:52Speaker 02

  Right. And

• 1:00:52Jen Cohen?

  I'm, I'm coming back to this.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  Traditional Chinese medicine, you know, but your

• 1:00:55Jen Cohen?

  I didn't forget about your product. Don't worry.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  Your feminine health is, is very important. And even your period is a report card of your health. Are you regular? Do you have blood clots? Heavy or light flow? Are you entering early menopause, right?

• 1:01:08Jen Cohen?

  That's what you asked me when you walked in here about, you're like, oh, when you're, when we're talking about traveling.

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Jen Cohen?

  Like about my menstrual cycle. So if, cause I, I'm pretty on time all the time, but like

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  That's very good.

• 1:01:19Jen Cohen?

  Is it? What does that mean?

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  You're healthy.

• 1:01:22Jen Cohen?

  Oh, well, that's good. And so if you're, if you're always irregular, what does that mean?

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  Unhealthy. Then in that case, I mean, if you're always irregular, then you go to a TCM doctor and you figure out why.

• 1:01:34Jen Cohen?

  So then you, cause so you're, so that's, I was asking you because of this product too. So then what, what were you?

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. So, so what we wanted to do was we wanted to come out with a product that was rooted in traditional Chinese medicine, which is twenty five hundred years of history and that makes me and Annie happy and healthy. And be able to share that with the world through our brand, Auntie Vota, which in Roman mythology means goddess of the future. So we have four SKUs. We have our cleansing gel, which is basically, you know, what you use in the shower, right? On your vulva. We don't believe in douching. Everything is external for the vulva. So we have our cleansing gel. We have our spray in two different sizes. And then we have our intimate wipes, which are individually packaged and biodegradable and flushable. So this, it's a daily care bundle because we're focused on preventive. We're all about prevention.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  And this daily care bundle, it helps you fight odor, irritation and dryness.

• 1:02:26Jen Cohen?

  And is it out, is it out in the marketplace?

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  Yes, we just launched in the States two weeks ago on our dot com.

• 1:02:32Jen Cohen?

  Oh, so you're not selling, you're not brick and mortar yet, you're just?

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Uh, we don't have our own brick and mortar stores yet, no.

• 1:02:38Jen Cohen?

  No, no, no, but you're not selling, where would it be brick and mortar? I guess there's no way to put, I guess, is it like Goop or where, where do people buy it?

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  We would love it. And in fact, before coming here, I literally just like, I, I went to some boutique, sort of high-end boutique independent retailers, or that I felt were aligned with our brand and dropped off pitching sets.

• 1:02:54Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Jen Cohen?

  So how much is this product? What's this, what's the price point?

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  Uh, we, we.

• 1:02:58Jen Cohen?

  Can I see it?

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the most expensive item is our cleansing gel, which is our hero product. And that's thirty-three US dollars. And then our sprays, we have two sizes. So the big at-home spray is twenty-nine dollars. The pocket spray is thirty-one dollars.

• 1:03:15Jen Cohen?

  So what, you spray your vulva?

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Jen Cohen?

  Vagina or like?

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah, no, totally. You, you turn it upside down and you, you know, four inches away and you spray your vulva and it, the pocket spray is actually a great hit for people who like going to the gym. You know, they go to yoga, have lunch with a girlfriend afterwards, but don't have time to shower. It also works as a great deodorant. A lot of our customers have been using it under their arms as well. And these are all free of harmful ingredients, all formulated with traditional Chinese medicine. Clean, vegan, everything over here.

• 1:03:44Jen Cohen?

  I love it. Who helped you formulate this whole thing?

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  Well, Annie is our chief scientist. She's our CEO, I'm CEO and creative, and then she is our COO. And she's head of product, she's head of formula. This is like, when we travel to the factory, I'm on the plane watching Netflix, I'm looking at her, she's reading research journals about different ingredients.

• 1:04:02Jen Cohen?

  Wow. So who is, like, who else is doing this now? Is there a lot of competition?

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  We're actually the first intimate wellness brand to be formulated with traditional Chinese medicinal herbs, to be, to be inspired by TCM. There are some femcare brands.

• 1:04:15Jen Cohen?

  It's like, I remember like when I was a kid, I would see commercials for like Summer's Eve. Do you remember them?

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  Yes, and.

• 1:04:21Jen Cohen?

  The douching company?

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  Yes, and, and you know, and they're still around and, but yeah.

• 1:04:26Jen Cohen?

  They are?

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  They are around. And I, but listen, I would just say whatever you buy, especially for sensitive skin, which is.

• 1:04:32Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, no, no.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  Check the ingredients.

• 1:04:34Jen Cohen?

  Oh, my God, for sure. I mean, this is what I like. I think all natural. I mean, listen.

• 1:04:38Speaker 02

  It's all natural, yeah.

• 1:04:39Jen Cohen?

  This is amazing. Not exactly the, I mean, is it proper etiquette to talk about feminine hygiene?

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  It's about helping women move through the world with confidence. And you would be surprised that, okay, so there's this book. And it's called Everybody Lies and it's written by a Google engineer. And he says, everybody lies if you ask them face to face, but Google search never lies. Okay.

• 1:04:59Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  The most Googled body part by men is, you can guess, penis size. The most Googled body part by women is vaginal odor. Really? I was shocked. Vaginal odor. And young girls who feel crippled by their vaginal odor. And, and like, will literally like, I mean, it goes of every age.

• 1:05:20Jen Cohen?

  That's the number one Googled.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  Body part, and it's in a book called Everybody Lies. You can tell Sex with Emily that.

• 1:05:27Jen Cohen?

  I will. Got it. I'm gonna ask her, I'm actually gonna ask her about this episode. Wow. That's crazy. So is that, is that also part of the, when you did like your like market research, if this is gonna do, like, if this is a viable option? You must have taken that into account.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, of course, of course, but, but you know, for us, I mean, it like, even what I do with etiquette. I, I feel that so much of the media today is telling us you shouldn't care, right? You shouldn't care about, anti-aging is a bad word now, right? You should, you shouldn't care that you're aging, but we do, right? The media is saying you shouldn't clean your vagina or your vulva, but actually you should. But, but, and we, and we do because, you know what?

• 1:06:11Jen Cohen?

  Who says we shouldn't do that?

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  A lot, a lot of, a lot of people say we should not clean it. And, and a lot of people say that you should just use water. But here's the thing. Back in the day when we walked around buck naked, right? Like, okay, but now we're wearing Lululemon all day long. We are on western medication, which messes with our hormones. We're traveling long haul, which also messes with our bodies. Stress, alcohol, all these exercise, all these things will affect your microflora and your pH levels.

• 1:06:43Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, totally, makes sense.

• 1:06:45Speaker 02

  So. You should clean your vulva.

• 1:06:48Jen Cohen?

  Are you saying vulva because it's a less.

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  No, vulva is the external. The vagina is internal. We don't promote douching.

• 1:06:54Jen Cohen?

  Right. So you don't promote douching. That's why you keep on saying.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  People refer to whole areas vagina, but actually.

• 1:06:59Jen Cohen?

  But those wipes, don't you wipe everything like?

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you can't go up into your vagina.

• 1:07:09Jen Cohen?

  Oh, my God, I guess you're right. Oh, my gosh. This is not where I thought the conversation was going with the man who is an expert. Okay, like this was like the antithesis of what I thought we were going to be talking about. Oh, my gosh, I love it. Okay, well, I mean, I have one other area I want to talk to you about. One question, well, not really one, but you're big into feng shui and I want to know about it.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:07:32Jen Cohen?

  And because we're talking about vaginas and vulvas, I didn't even ask you about that. Can you talk about that?

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, so for example, you know, your office is up here.

• 1:07:42Jen Cohen?

  You need to help me.

• 1:07:43Speaker 02

  The good thing is that your back is against a wall and you are facing out onto the room and to the window. Because the wall is what we call a kaoshan. Ka is support, shan is mountain. And when you sit, you want a wall behind you because that's your supporting mountain that protects you. The worst is to have your desk up against the wall where you're facing the wall, right? And if you're facing the wall, it's like you have, it inhibits growth because I mean, you're looking at a wall.

• 1:08:11Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  And then you're defenseless because your back is to the room, your back is to the window.

• 1:08:16Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  Now, one thing I would say, instead of a glass table, you should have a wood table because glass is transparent. It's not solid enough if it's a working table. Wood or just something that's like, you know, that's not transparent.

• 1:08:28Jen Cohen?

  Why?

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  Would be best. So it's, I mean, glass, like you want your work desk to be a place of security and of productivity and wealth, right? Bringing in money.

• 1:08:39Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:08:40Speaker 02

  And in fact, we say the best work desk is something that even covers over the side so that when you're sitting at it, people can't see your legs.

• 1:08:49Jen Cohen?

  Really? Like, will I make more money if I have a wooden table that does not show my legs?

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  Well. You'll have to test it out and let me know.

• 1:08:58Jen Cohen?

  Wow. Okay. Does it count that the that the two pieces are wood? That the glass is on top of?

• 1:09:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, no, wait. This is the most important piece.

• 1:09:06Jen Cohen?

  That's the most important. Okay, Nick, can you give me some other main things about Feng Shui? Because like this room is like a smorgasbord because I was in the middle of designing it and then I stopped. Like this was with a my husband's moms that they left here and I'm trying to get rid of it, but it's comfortable. So I keep it because I actually like to sit in it, but it's the most ungodly looking thing in the entire world. Well, lazy boy, everybody. They're so ugly, but they're so comfortable.

• 1:09:33Speaker 02

  Okay, in this room, I would say your TV is too high. And that shelf is a bit high and it creates pressure, especially if you're sitting down.

• 1:09:41Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I never watch it, but what do you?

• 1:09:42Speaker 02

  But it's just the placement of it. It's like looming over you.

• 1:09:46Jen Cohen?

  So what does that mean?

• 1:09:47Speaker 02

  It creates pressure. So it's it's like added burden.

• 1:09:50Jen Cohen?

  So what is but can you explain what that means in like my term?

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  Okay, yes, yes, yes. So.

• 1:09:56Jen Cohen?

  So I have a TV, but I'm not really using it. So what does it do when I'm in here?

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  Oh, if you're not using it? Well, I mean, yeah.

• 1:10:03Jen Cohen?

  I use it when I'm in my like in my little portable sauna. I'll sit back here and watch TV.

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  Well, that's fine, but just in terms of like, I mean, you want to be in the power position, right? So when you're sitting at your desk, you ideally are the highest thing. Like.

• 1:10:20Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah, I got you.

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  So you have this TV, like just look at a TV right now. Don't you feel it's like looming over you and about to fall on you?

• 1:10:27Jen Cohen?

  Not until you said it, but okay.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  And it's so much higher than you.

• 1:10:31Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  That it creates like, like I ideally, you could maybe put this on a lower shelf. Maybe half the height.

• 1:10:41Jen Cohen?

  And, okay, and that but I guess my question about Feng Shui is what is Feng Shui in the real term? Like, how does it matter in your life? Like, it's other than just aesthetics. Okay, like.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:10:53Jen Cohen?

  Okay, so that doesn't, I hate the couch. I don't like this. This glass maybe should be wood because it represents more money. But in the grand scheme, what is the purpose of it?

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  So Feng means wind, shui means water. So Feng shui is wind, water.

• 1:11:09Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Every Feng shui master, if let's say you wanna stop arranging the Feng shui in your house, the first thing they do is they find out your birthday. So your date of birth and your time of birth. Because a lot of it is very customized. And let's say like your home, you have you, your husband and your children. Then usually you provide all the birth dates to them while they're like, you know, calculating which spaces are what. But this room, for example, is just you, so it's just more about you. Feng shui can be applied to your, it can help your love life, your career. It's about maximizing, it's about making the good things better and making the bad things, like minimizing the, the, the negative effects, basically. So it's about arranging your furniture in a way that feels comfortable. If something is good Feng shui, it will feel good.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Cause again, this is the chi, this is the energy. And so people, people usually go to a Feng shui master when something bad happens in their life. Find out their partner's cheating. Maybe they just got divorced or, you know, break up, something got, just got fired, maybe, right? Something not going well at work, a deal just fell through. That's usually when people will turn to Feng shui. Cause something happened and they need help. And then usually we do Feng shui, Feng shui is only, like Feng shui generally speaking. So for example, you know, the placement of your desk, you want it to be in a good position where you feel safe, you feel strong, you feel powerful, right? These things are evergreen. But if you want to go to the detail of, okay, put a, um, you need water in this corner. So you have like some moving fish tank or you wanna put red curtains here, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  That Feng shui lasts only twelve months. From Chinese New Year in January or February to Chinese New Year the next year. So usually every year, because you know, it's a different year, like it'll be year of the ox, year of the tiger, year of the rabbit, right? Right now it's year of the dragon. And so based on each year, details of the Feng shui changes, but the general Feng shui of like, okay, the placement feels good, generally that's evergreen.

• 1:13:04Jen Cohen?

  That is interesting. I felt like also it gives a room a certain feel. Like you walk into a room and feel there's a good feeling, a bad feeling.

• 1:13:10Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Like I'll walk in, I'll know like, okay, you know, this is, this is a jagged edge or this feels blocked. I mean, but also that's like.

• 1:13:18Jen Cohen?

  Like what did you feel when you walked in here?

• 1:13:20Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, here, everything's been pushed aside in order to do the podcast.

• 1:13:23Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:24Speaker 02

  Right? So I haven't seen it when it normally is. But, you know, I mean, it feels it feels cozy. It feels bustling, maybe a little bit. Yeah, I like the the main thing for me is that the TV is too high.

• 1:13:35Jen Cohen?

  You didn't notice the ugly couch behind you?

• 1:13:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I mean, you know.

• 1:13:42Jen Cohen?

  It does? Okay, well, that's good. I mean.

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  Feng Shui isn't about like the aesthetics.

• 1:13:46Jen Cohen?

  It's not about the aesthetics.

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  It's not about like, oh, like, you know, it's it's it's about the the feeling of everything, the harmony of everything together. So for example, let's say, avoid sharp corners. If you want harmony in the family, then go for rounded corners, or let's say your dining table or it can be a rounded a rounded corner or it could be a round table, right?

• 1:14:06Jen Cohen?

  So interesting.

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  If you if you want to do Feng Shui, let's let's say you're single, then make sure that you you can put some pink in your room that attracts, it's like peach blossom color that attracts love. And then you want to have everything in your bedroom be symmetrical. So if you're single and you're looking for a relationship, the last thing you should have is a single bed. You should have you should have a double bed, which invites space for somebody into your life. You should not have your bed pushed up against a wall. You should have space on both sides for somebody to enter. You should not have just one nightstand. You should have a pair of nightstands. Right? Again, symmetrical.

• 1:14:41Jen Cohen?

  So kind of act as if.

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:44Jen Cohen?

  I love that.

• 1:14:45Speaker 02

  You don't want your closet to be totally like completely packed. You want to leave a little bit of space for somebody else to put their clothes in.

• 1:14:51Jen Cohen?

  Are there three key rules of Feng Shui or?

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  Uh, I can give you three key rules of Feng Shui.

• 1:14:57Jen Cohen?

  Do that and we'll wrap it up because God knows it's been forever, right? For you.

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  Uh, let's see, three, one of some three good rules. Well, so I'd say rule one, rounded corners are preferred over sharp corners. Right? That that's one thing. Although it's actually okay for for a work desk to have sharp corners.

• 1:15:16Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:15:18Speaker 02

  Rule number two, no disturbing art in the house. And I say this in my Netflix show, because you don't, you don't want to bring that energy into the home.

• 1:15:27Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  Number three, never put the bones or ashes of a loved one or a pet inside the home. Because it turns the house into a graveyard. It gives it too much yin energy. You'd be surprised at how many Westerners do that. You would be shocked. One of my students in my Netflix show did that. First of all, she like bird all the dead fish in their garden. And then when I said that's a big no-no, she, a day later, she was like, you know how you said that was a big no-no? I have a question. I have my dad's ashes in my bedroom.

• 1:15:52Jen Cohen?

  No.

• 1:15:52Speaker 02

  I just like, and I was like, oh my god. I was like, can we turn the cameras on right now?

• 1:15:57Jen Cohen?

  Well, exactly.

• 1:15:58Speaker 02

  I was like, oh my god, did you guys catch this?

• 1:16:01Jen Cohen?

  That's, yeah, that's not, no, no, no, I agree with that. That's, okay. Okay, I have all these other questions, but maybe you can just come back because I have so many things I didn't ask you. Like practicing non-sexual flirting.

• 1:16:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's fun. By the way, I have about like ten minutes left. Is that okay?

• 1:16:16Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, no, no, I have another part too. Yeah, I have a podcast too. That's one thing. By the way, I have like another person coming, so that's, I feel like. We got sidetracked.

• 1:16:25Speaker 02

  It's been so fun. Yeah, so fun.

• 1:16:28Jen Cohen?

  I wanted to talk to you about, let me just pick one more thing. Well, I know what we didn't talk about, but I said it to you before. I love the twenty second rule or the forty second rule. Please talk about that.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:41Jen Cohen?

  And because I think this can be a game changer for a lot of people. No, I'm serious.

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  Do you have some people you want to name and shame?

• 1:16:48Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I don't know if I want to name, but I feel bad shaming them because sometimes you just are like, are like just completely oblivious.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  It's usually men, by the way.

• 1:16:57Jen Cohen?

  A lot of men are very oblivious to this, but I think it can save a lot of relationships and just overall like communication if people listen to this. This is a really great one, guys. Listen to this.

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  I like to think of dialogue as traffic lights. So if you're speaking, if you stay within twenty seconds, green light, you're in the clear. If you're approaching forty seconds, orange light, like you're edging on boring. And if you've gone over forty seconds, red light, you're officially self-obsessed.

• 1:17:34Jen Cohen?

  I love that. The only issue I have is what if you're telling a story?

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  Oh, that's different. That's different. I'm talking about like a conversation. I'm not talking about if you're up on the podium giving a speech or if you're telling a story which requires.

• 1:17:44Jen Cohen?

  No, but I think a lot of times people drone on and on about these stories. And they have no awareness that it's boring for people. So then I guess my question is where the, when do you know? Like, yeah, if you're doing it, if you're on a podium giving a speech, of course, you're going to be longer than twenty seconds or forty seconds. But when you are just in a conversation at dinner or a dinner party, are you allowed to go past twenty seconds? If someone asks you a question, twenty seconds is really short.

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, if somebody's asking you a question which requires a lengthy answer, like then you just have to be the judge of that, right? You have to be the judge of that. And also, usually, like, that's why I think it's important to get out there and go to as many social functions as possible and to meet different people.

• 1:18:31Jen Cohen?

  What I love about the twenty-second or forty-second rule when speaking to somebody is more than just it being twenty seconds on the dot or forty seconds on the dot. It makes you think and be kind of, you're being conscientious of how long you're talking about yourself. That, to me, is the importance of it versus just like, you know, droning on and on and on without any idea that there should be like a beginning and start, you know, beginning, middle and end time that should be concise. Because otherwise, people will just go on and on and it could be three minutes and you're sitting there and you're like, holy shit, this person is just talking forever. So just be mindful. I think it just makes you.

• 1:19:15Speaker 02

  Yes, it's true. It's less about counting the seconds and more about like, okay, like, I know I should be mindful. For me, if I'm ever on the receiving end of somebody who just keeps droning on, on, on. What I like to do is I'm already thinking, because I have a shorter attention span. And I'm already thinking like, how do I get out of here?

• 1:19:32Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Speaker 02

  And if there's other people nearby, I'll just introduce them to somebody else, which, yeah, some people will be like, that is so immoral of you to push this person onto another person. But it's like, I'm not claiming to be Miss Goodie Two Shoes.

• 1:19:44Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  And I, so I'm not teaching morals. I'm Miss Manners with a touch of Machiavelli.

• 1:19:49Jen Cohen?

  I love that. So that is exactly it. So your manners with a touch of Machiavelli. Because I agree with you. Like, I don't think it's rude. What I think is actually you're being very conscientious of the other person's feelings. You don't want to be rude and just walk away with not giving them another person to talk to. You're actually finding a replacement so you can get the hell out of there. Which is what I do on a regular basis and I've mastered this. By the way, now after talking to you, I think I should be writing a manners book.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  Do it.

• 1:20:15Jen Cohen?

  I think a lot of this is just like having a lot of like social experience. And putting it in a book and telling somebody, you know, these are like some rules that you should abide by. And it will make your life a lot easier to kind of navigate, really. But, but you do it much better and you do it in a much more eloquent way than I would ever be able to. And I, like I said, I love the book. Guys, a book is called Mind Your Manners. I'm going to let her get out of here. She's.

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  The subtitle, we get the subtitle, How to Be Your Best Self in Any Situation.

• 1:20:46Jen Cohen?

  Do your best self in any situation by Sarah Jane Ho. She's the same lady that has the Netflix show by the same name, Mind Your Manners. And like I said, you guys can just like peruse the book in one section, put it down. It's on, you've got dating in there, you have table manners, you have work situations. How to like properly respond to an email on time. By the way, how long, how, what's an appropriate amount of time?

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  To respond to an email? Ideally by end of day, but longest 24 hours.

• 1:21:18Jen Cohen?

  Work wise.

• 1:21:19Speaker 02

  Oh, work wise, work wise? Actually, there's data that suggests people need, expect a response within an hour, but at minimum end of day.

• 1:21:26Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I still even think that's, that's a lot. But anyway, Sarah, where can people find more of you? Are you on social media?

• 1:21:32Speaker 02

  Yes, my Instagram is Sarah Jane Ho and yeah, check out my Netflix show.

• 1:21:37Jen Cohen?

  And watch the Netflix show, guys. I watched a couple of episodes. It was cute. You're very good on it. Really are. Thank you so much for being on the show and good luck with the book.

• 1:21:46Speaker 02

  Thank you and thank you for having me.

• 1:21:48Jen Cohen?

  And good luck with your intimate care female product.

• 1:21:51Speaker 02

  Auntie Porta. Yeah, everybody should. Everybody with a vulva should get one. Everybody who knows somebody with a vulva can get them one.

• 1:21:58Jen Cohen?

  And I will definitely, I'll try it and post it and.

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  Great. Thank you.

• 1:22:03Jen Cohen?

  Thank you. Bye, everybody.

• 1:22:05Speaker 02

  Bye.