Episode 567: Shawn Stevenson: The Science of Sleep, Stress, Weight Loss, and Longevity

Everyone is trying to optimize their health with trackers, supplements, morning routines, and biohacking tools, but sometimes the basics are still the biggest needle-movers. In this episode, we unpack why sleep, stress, relationships, food quality, and even walking may matter more than the latest wellness trend. We dive deeper into this in the Habits & Hustle Podcast with Shawn Stevenson. We also chat about melatonin, sleep quality, wearables, fat loss, protein, weighted vests, GLP-1s, and why your relationships may be the most underrated longevity hack. Shawn Stevenson is the host of The Model Health Show, one of the top-rated health podcasts. He is the author of Sleep Smarter, which became an international bestseller and has been translated into more than 20 languages. He is also the author of Eat Smarter and the Eat Smarter Family Cookbook. What's Discussed: (02:11) How Shawn Stevenson wrote one of the first bestselling books on sleep before it became a wellness trend. (03:08) Why sleep was the missing factor for clients who were doing everything "right" but not seeing results. (04:20) How morning exercise can help reset your cortisol rhythm and improve sleep quality. (09:29) What people misunderstand about melatonin and why taking more is not always better. (22:16) Why waking up in the middle of the night is not always a problem. (27:28) Are wearables actually improving your health or making you more neurotic? (37:04) Why your relationships may be the number one factor in longevity. (48:19) How sleep deprivation can make you lose muscle instead of body fat. (55:16) Why calories matter, but food quality changes what your body does with them. (1:18:14) The weighted vest study that explains why gravitational loading may help prevent weight regain. Thank You to Our Sponsors! Momentous: Ready to try supplements that actually do what they claim? Head to livemomentous.com http://livemomentous.com and use code JEN for 35% off your first subscription. Therasage: Visit therasage.com http://therasage.com and use code JEN to get 15% off your order. Your skin deserves this level of care. Magic Mind: Head over to magicmind.com/jen http://www.magicmind.com/jen and use code JEN at checkout. AirDoctor: Head to AirDoctorPro.com http://airdoctorpro.com/ and use promo code HUSTLE to get up to $300 off today! AirDoctor comes with a 30-day money back guarantee, plus a 3-year warranty (an $84 value) FREE! Kion: Visit getkion.com/habits http://getkion.com/habits for 20% off. Pique: Go to piquelife.com/jenniferrsd https://piquelife.com/jenniferrsd to get 20% off for life plus free gifts Prolon: Prolon is offering listeners 30% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their 5-Day Program! Just visit prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN https://prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN and use code JENNIFERCOHEN to claim your discount and your bonus gift. Manna Vitality:Try it now by using code Jennifer20 at mannavitality.com http://mannavitality.com Rho Nutrition: Go to RhoNutrition.com http://rhonutrition.com and try Rho's Liposomal Glutathione. Use code JEN20 for 20% off sitewide. Find more from Jen Cohen: Website: jennifercohen.com https://jennifercohen.com Instagram: @therealjencohen http://instagram.com/therealjencohen Books: jennifercohen.com/books https://jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements https://jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements Find more from Shawn Stevenson Website: themodelhealthshow.com https://themodelhealthshow.com/ Instagram: @shawnmodel https://www.instagram.com/shawnmodel/?hl=en YouTube: @TheShawnModel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtFV6nJ5zZ0__SXBkikfLlg LinkedIn: Shawn Stevenson https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawn-stevenson-4b346123/ Facebook: The Model Health Show https://www.facebook.com/TheModelHealthShow/ Podcast: The Model Health Show https://podcasts.apple.com/it/podcast/the-model-health-show/id640246578?l=en-GB Book: Eat Smarter Family Cookbook: 100 Delicious Recipes to Transform Your Health, Happiness, and Connection https://www.amazon.com/dp/0316456462?lv=shuf&crid=15QO156814QWC&keywords=eat%20smarter%20family%20cookbook&sprefix=eat%20smarter%20f,aps,313&dib_tag=se&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9. U7c0hduYP2IKxJXVldOEz4wGf4ZqDtQWNArI3J4hzg5ZeXUPqPIQPQw15r7CvYA-eAyjr9W3_qXGAzFZIn9AU78Ylsw1VCraOBGAr_UTiuxmbtSft7owE-trcdEORUswcP178ThDzpyrKZHYNbn1YhVt2poJcTAkCoRnJoSpFWbL07lc2pm9KW5rtscj7QjypBZrqNSp1iN72_52zkoEdvNiNQ5BcTGOXmFoDLR3Dys.c1w07CEIo-QZoroHQy4kLcKqyheYLaq2vUvGGAK2fa8&qid=1781031014&sr=8-1&channelId=425&ref_=sr_1_1&plpRedirect=mhFallback

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

• 0:07Jen Cohen?

  We have the wonderful Shawn Stevenson on and round, how about podcast one, part B? Does that make sense?

• 0:15Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 0:15Jen Cohen?

  We had some technical errors, round one, and we are going to be doing a whole podcast on health, fitness, sleep, wellness, longevity. I mean, you are, you are a wealth of information. If you, for those of you who don't know, Shawn has one of the top rated health podcasts called The Model Health Show. And now, don't you have a deal with Spotify or someone? Am I supposed to say that or am I allowed?

• 0:38Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, we're, we're doing some stuff.

• 0:40Jen Cohen?

  We're doing some stuff, okay. But Shawn is like amazing in terms of, he's so researched and you have so many data points, it's unbelievable. So this is going to be a very good podcast, I know. And, and what we do on this podcast, my dear friend, is we do these performance shots by Magic Mind. Have you ever done one of these before?

• 0:58Speaker 02

  Not like Magic Mike, it's Magic Mind.

• 1:01Jen Cohen?

  Magic Mind.

• 1:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:02Jen Cohen?

  Yes, not Magic Mike. I wish. Maybe, maybe next time, I don't know. But they, this one's caffeine free.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:10Jen Cohen?

  Don't you want to do a little cheers?

• 1:11Speaker 02

  Do a little dabble. Here we go.

• 1:12Jen Cohen?

  There we go. Cheers, my dear.

• 1:18Jen Cohen?

  Do you like it?

• 1:20Speaker 02

  It's not bad.

• 1:21Jen Cohen?

  And the ingredient list is very, very, very good. It's all top of the line stuff.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  I feel my mind growing and

• 1:30Jen Cohen?

  Your focus clearing?

• 1:32Speaker 02

  And also if it was Magic Mike, never mind. Okay, let's move on.

• 1:36Jen Cohen?

  I wish, I wish. Like, I know what you're gonna say, but unfortunately, it's just Magic Mind today. But hopefully, you're gonna be super locked in and super focused now with this podcast. Not like you really need it. I mean, how many books do you have now, by the way?

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Three, three, yeah.

• 1:51Jen Cohen?

  Your three books. And the first book is a sleep book.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Sleep Smarter, yeah. So that was an international bestseller, first sleep wellness book to become an international bestseller.

• 1:58Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 1:59Speaker 02

  It's translated in 26 or 27 different languages or countries, all separate foreign book deals. So that really, it changed everything. And this was, it came out 11, about 11 or 12 years ago.

• 2:11Jen Cohen?

  Wow. So it was before like sleep became the most trending, talked about wellness hack, basically.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, really. And also, you know, it was one of those things where especially in the book industry.

• 2:27Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  They're very big on proof of concept.

• 2:30Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 2:30Speaker 02

  And so publishers weren't trying to really look at a book like that, agents. And so it was something I really had to advocate for. And I'm grateful now. It's just like, again, the conversation is just a big part. It's built in to the health conversation now. And so I'm grateful for that.

• 2:46Jen Cohen?

  What made you even think back then to write a book on sleep?

• 2:49Speaker 02

  I mean, I was working as a nutritionist. I had just graduated. And I was still working in the gym as well as a strength and conditioning coach. But, you know, we were seeing incredible results with people, you know, helping people to, you know, if they're on like lisinopril and like metformin, high blood pressure, insulin resistance, all this kind of stuff. Just helping to get their body to normalize a lot of these functions just through nutrition and exercise. But there was always this percentage of people who wouldn't get the same results. And that would really bother me. Ironically, sometimes it would keep me up at night like, what is, why can't we get this person get the weight off or get their blood pressure normalized? And so it just kind of hit me like a ton of bricks one day to ask people about their sleep.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  And I was shocked. I was shocked. I mean, some people, like I was working with this guy from France. And he shared with me that he only sleeps about four hours a night for, and he said for years. And when he said it, it was just like, I see it. I see it. He, there's part of, he kind of looked like a ghost a little bit.

• 3:53Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Like his spirit was a little bit like unsettled in his body, you know? And here's the thing, I know that people want change, but they don't want to change that much to get it.

• 4:03Jen Cohen?

  That's right.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  And so I started to look into what are some science-backed ways that people can improve their sleep quality without changing a lot? And so I just, I was blown away by all the data that existed that most people had no idea about. And so even one of those studies that was conducted by researchers at Appalachian State University, looking at the timing of day that you do your exercise and the impact that it has on sleep at night. And the researchers found that exercising in the morning, so they had. Exercise to work out in the morning. This was seven AM, uh, one PM group and a seven PM group. And morning exercisers spent more time in anabolic stages of sleep. So like, you know, delta wave sleep. They had lower blood pressure in the evening and they had more efficient sleep cycles overall.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  And so not to say that the other times

• 4:50Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Aren't like, quote, bad to exercise. Exercise is great just about anytime, but of course, working out in the evening and then trying to go to bed with your cortisol

• 4:59Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Elevated can be problematic. But it was just pointing to the way that we evolved for most people, just our genes are expecting us to be active in the morning.

• 5:08Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  And what that did was, one of the things the researchers found in other studies as well, exercising in the morning helps to kind of set or reset or kind of sync up our cortisol rhythm. Our cortisol is supposed to spike in the morning.

• 5:21Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  And then gradually go down through the day. And not to say that cortisol is like an antithesis of melatonin. But if cortisol is elevated, it definitely does kind of have a suppressive effect on melatonin. And so for a lot of people, we would see, you know, if we get a Dutch test done or whatever, just to be able to like, look at their cortisol rhythm through a 24 hour cycle. We would see and call them tired and wired. And so they will wake up in the morning tired and then they would be wide awake in the evening. Right?

• 5:54Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  And I've, I've been there, I understand. And so, you know, you wake up and you're like, I can't wait to get to bed at night. But then nighttime rolls around, it's because their cortisol was elevated in the evening and too low in the morning. And so, exercise is one of those things, which seems kind of obvious, to help to get that cortisol rhythm, rhythm reset.

• 6:12Jen Cohen?

  And what happens, did you see people, what was the data on people who worked out mid morning or one, or one PM?

• 6:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:18Jen Cohen?

  What did you see? Was it still, it was better, but not great, basically?

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, exercise, a- a- again, in the afternoon, beneficial as far as influence on sleep. But not as much as the morning. In the evening, same thing, but there was some issue with, again, cortisol. And so, you know, it's so funny, is that when I was writing the book, I had this book that my son was He's fourteen now, so he was like, like two. And in the book, it was like a nighttime book, right? A go to bed ritual book in the, in the book. So it was like the little characters, the little animals, like they had their evening routine, like, you know, um, taking a bath and, you know, having their little warm milk or whatever it was. But then part of the book was they exercise right next to their bed to basically tire themselves out.

• 7:06Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  And this was a belief that people had, you know, decades ago.

• 7:11Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  That we should tire yourself out. When in reality, there's a big difference between tiring yourself out and passing out versus actually going through your sleep cycles efficiently. And so, you know, I, again, another great example, I had a person I was working with who did BJJ, the, you know, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

• 7:30Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  And their class was like at eight P M. And they were like, I was struggling to get to bed at night.

• 7:35Jen Cohen?

  Yep.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  I'm like, of course you are.

• 7:38Jen Cohen?

  Cause you're wired.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  You're leaving there at nine and you're just like, you just got done fighting, basically. And they're trying to get to bed at like ten thirty. You know, I'm just like, listen, either, and this sometimes just helping a great coach is somebody just looks at your life from a different point of view. And you could see like, okay, is there another time you could do your Jiu Jitsu training? Or don't be so hard on yourself to try to get to bed at ten thirty. Like it's okay to go to bed eleven, eleven thirty. If your schedule like allows for you to get up at seven the next day, like it's okay. You don't have to. So sometimes it's just like moving stuff around to optimize sleep.

• 8:15Jen Cohen?

  Do you, back then, when you wrote that book, I believe melatonin, taking melatonin was a big thing. And since then, it's now known that it's a hormone, whatever, and that people shouldn't be taking it. And they should be taking now magnesium. Do you remember that back then? Was that?

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah. I cited a, a study in the book. Melatonin, just to be clear.

• 8:35Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  It has its applications that are appropriate.

• 8:38Jen Cohen?

  Can you tell us what it is? Cause I mean, I feel like melatonin now has become kind of like the devil. No one, right? Like it's only you take magnesium glycinate and if you want to fall asleep and not even the other types of magnesiums. Can you kind of give me some clarity? On this because I think there is a lot of confusion.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, melatonin, first of all, is one of the most powerful hormones that we have.

• 9:01Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  It's not just about sleep. That's really one of the biggest misconceptions.

• 9:06Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  It is part of our overall, it is a master clock regulator. So it's a big part of our circadian timing system. All right. And so what the hell is that? When I was in school, you know, again, my expensive university education, hearing about something like a biological clock sounds like soft science. We weren't really, it was like something literally like two pages in a textbook, we move on.

• 9:30Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  But in reality, it is quite possibly the most important thing for us to focus on when trying to optimize what our body is doing. Because these circadian clocks are determining when all of our other hormones and neurotransmitters, proteins are getting made, gene expression. These master clocks are controlling everything about us, right?

• 9:54Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  And the question would be for me, what the hell are they? What are these biological clocks or clock genes?

• 10:01Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  So these clock genes are.

• 10:04Jen Cohen?

  I'm just looking at stuff, so don't take it personally.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  These clock genes are existing in, our biological clocks or circadian clocks exist in almost all of our trillions of cells. There are certain cells that don't have them, but these cells are glorified genes and proteins. These clock, we'll call them, if you're, if you're hearing the term biological clock or circadian clock, they're genes and proteins that control all of our other genes and proteins. Okay? Top tier importance. What is influencing these circadian clocks? Light exposure is the number one thing that's determining what these clocks are doing. And we can hypothetically break these clocks by having all of this abnormal exposure to artificial light at the wrong times

• 10:50Speaker 02

  and lack of exposure to natural lights. We evolved thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years with these inputs, telling our bodies when to produce, have a bigger boost of testosterone. Testosterone or human growth hormone or estrogen or melatonin. And suddenly, all of this stuff is getting complete. It's chaos in our bodies.

• 11:11Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  And so melatonin is a master regulator of all these processes, most attributed to nighttime stuff.

• 11:18Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  Melatonin is a very, very powerful controller or regulator of our immune system function as well. And so this is why we see higher rates, one of the reasons, higher rates of various cancers in shift workers, for example. And so there are multiple studies on this as well.

• 11:34Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  And so melatonin is not just about sleep, it's about regulating our circadian timing system, which is, it's influencing everything about us. Again, I could just list off 20 things.

• 11:48Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Immune system function, testosterone, estrogen production, cortisol rhythms, all of it. With that being said, should you just go to CVS and buy some of that shit off the shelf?

• 11:59Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  You gotta be very, very careful about that.

• 12:03Jen Cohen?

  Because why? Why? Is it dangerous?

• 12:04Speaker 02

  So what the data showed and what I shared in the book was, the prevailing belief was that taking an exogenous melatonin supplement would suppress your body's own production of melatonin.

• 12:16Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  But that turned out to not be true. What the data showed was that you will still continue to produce the same amounts of melatonin, but your sensitivity to it goes down. The receptor sites for melatonin, your natural receptor sites, start to basically down-regulate. And so melatonin won't work as well in your body.

• 12:39Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  You keep producing it just fine, but it doesn't work as well. So there is an issue with that.

• 12:45Jen Cohen?

  That's a big issue.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Of course, for sure, for sure. So now we know what the kind of culprit might be and why people continue to, you know, end up taking more and more and more to get the same effect.

• 12:55Jen Cohen?

  And people are giving it to their children.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:58Jen Cohen?

  To get them to fall asleep.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  People been giving their kids shit for a long time.

• 13:01Jen Cohen?

  I know, I was gonna say, this is not new.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  You know, whether it's like slipping some alcohol into the bottle or whatever the case might be.

• 13:07Jen Cohen?

  To get them to go to sleep, you're right. So this is not like, it's obviously not a safe, would you say that parents should maybe not give their children melatonin before they go to sleep?

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Ideally, no, that's just not appropriate, but we gotta look at the culture. You know, what is the parents' habits around sleep look like? You know, a lot of times our sleep habits have to do with our environment and our culture. And so, which we'll get back, we could definitely dig in on this. But I wanna make this point. Where I would possibly recommend, or say it's okay for melatonin use.

• 13:40Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Small amounts, like micro amounts. Especially shift, like time zone changes can help to kinda get you synced back up, get a little melatonin boost. I find it great for that. If you've had a couple of rough nights of sleep in a row and just like, I just need to kinda reset. Maybe that's another case, but again, you, there are so many other things you wanna do instead, but that's another place. Or if somebody's using like, again, a micro amount over a longer amount of time, that might be okay. We just don't wanna get into higher doses, which is the vast majority. What it's recommended on the bottles or on the sprays or the supplements are pretty significant doses.

• 14:17Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Of melatonin that, you know, again, taken over a long period of time could, could cause some issues.

• 14:22Jen Cohen?

  So why can't people, so because now I feel like it's all about taking magnesium at night.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:28Jen Cohen?

  Is that, so there was a, I feel like there has been a shift over the years. And does magnesium work better and why does it work better for sleep?

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Magnesium, again, another thing in my nutritional science class that I took in college. We were, like the teacher, the professor recommended everybody take a multivitamin. If you work with people, tell them everybody needs to take a multivitamin.

• 14:52Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  What we didn't know at the time, and by the way, my first semester, I actually moved into my dorm in the summer of 1997, which is crazy. And so this was a while back for sure. But even today.

• 15:06Jen Cohen?

  You still look like a college kid, by the way.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 15:09Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Well, even today, though, this is rare that you're going to have a professor who tells you that vitamin C on that multivitamin, there are multiple forms of vitamin C. You have one synthetic version of it in that supplement.

• 15:24Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Right? There are multiple forms of magnesium. I was not taught that. There are multiple forms. It's more, most people know multiple forms of vitamin D, multiple forms of, obviously, the B vitamins. But just about any vitamin that you can name, minerals, there are multiple forms of that thing. And so when we're getting this kind of isolated supplement, it can be helpful, but some of it might not be what your body's actually looking for. And so obviously, there are all these different types of magnesium. Now, I can't make a recommendation on which one is right, which one's right for you. So of course, there's different companies that have like blends of different magnesiums.

• 15:59Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  You know, but I, and I, I think they can be incredibly valuable, by the way. But I lean towards, let's do what we can to get this in, get magnesium in, in ways that we traditionally did, through your diet.

• 16:13Jen Cohen?

  Right. So you're not big on, on taking a supplement at all to try to fall asleep?

• 16:18Speaker 02

  There are some, but they're going to be more time-tested, you know, simple stuff. And there's, we can go into stronger stuff. We could do basic, like Canomile.

• 16:27Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, tell me some stuff, because I know people love talking about sleep and if I...

• 16:31Speaker 02

  But magnesium, by the way, I'm not trying to...

• 16:32Jen Cohen?

  No, no, I want to know.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  We've got some data, some really strong data on magnesium, and I'm a big Y guy. So magnesium supplementation before bed helps essentially to shift over to that parasympathetic nervous system and supports the production of melatonin. So it does have an impact, right? And so, but you got it, it's context. Like, if you're taking a supplement, but then you've got all the lights on and the TV and all this stuff, are you going to get that same effect? No, you're not. It's like, you got to stack the conditions.

• 17:04Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Right. And so magnesium can be great. For some people, sometimes. That being said, I would love to see magnesium-rich diet. I would love to see a tryptophan-rich diet. Tryptophan is another really important good sleep nutrient. Tryptophan is a precursor to make serotonin, which is a precursor to make melatonin. Give your body the raw materials to build this thing, but then get out of the way. The conditions that you need for your body to make melatonin is a consistent schedule because it's always looking to produce stuff at the same time in darkness. Right? And so, again, if you're not abiding by those things, you could take all the supplements you want, you're not going to get the effect you're looking for.

• 17:45Jen Cohen?

  Right. And the tryptophan, isn't that in Turkey?

• 17:48Speaker 02

  That, yeah, that's.

• 17:49Jen Cohen?

  That's a Turkey thing.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  It is in Turkey, but it doesn't make you sleepy like that.

• 17:52Jen Cohen?

  It doesn't.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  Does it? We get tired on Thanksgiving because we eat a shitload of food.

• 17:57Jen Cohen?

  Exactly.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  That's what we call it, the itis. You get a little itis. But it's in, it's in chicken as well. It's in a lot of plant foods too, you know? So, yeah, you could find tryptophan in a bunch of different sources. But this is, just to lean back to, okay, if we're looking at something supplement-wise, quote, supplement-wise for supporting sleep. Chamomile, time-tested for relaxation, parasympathetic tone. We've got kava kava, if you want to get a little bit stronger. Kava kava can really knock some people out as well. It's traditional, been used for thousands of years. But my favorite, affirmed by data, biochemistry and pharmacology research.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  I believe that's the name of the journal. I know that that's a couple of parts of the name of the journal. But they did a controlled study with reishi mushroom.

• 18:50Jen Cohen?

  Oh, yes.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  And reishi was found to improve sleep latency, meaning you fall asleep faster, increase overall sleep time, improve sleep efficiency, and improve energy the next day as well. So, reishi is really remarkable. But the sourcing matters too. Are you getting the extraction method?

• 19:11Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Right? Because you might be buying a supplement and it's not even what the researchers used.

• 19:16Jen Cohen?

  What do you recommend then? What's a good supplement?

• 19:19Speaker 02

  There's hot water extracts and then there's alcohol extracts as well. It just depends on the purpose because with the alcohol extraction, hot water extraction, you're gonna get different things out of the mushroom. Like one method is gonna get more of the kind of hormonal compounds, tryterpenes. Another method is gonna get like the antioxidants and stuff like that. If you can, get both. And so this is why like it's called a dual extraction. And so there are some companies out there that have both extraction methods in one tea or one supplement.

• 19:51Jen Cohen?

  And that reishi can help you stay asleep, fall asleep and have better quality sleep.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and no negative side effects. That was the biggest thing I wanted to point out about that study. If you put that up against some of these stronger medications or even some supplements like melatonin. We have these benefits with reishi without negative side effects and it's immunoregulating. And it's like attributed to, you know, uh, supporting longevity. It's been used for thousands of years. It's something I personally use a couple of times a week. I'll have a cup of reishi like forty five minutes before bed.

• 20:27Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:29Jen Cohen?

  That helps.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  But especially like if I'm traveling and if I'm wanting to like get a reset. I'll have some reishi tea before bed and I blend it with a little bit of fat as well, just a little. Because again, it kind of helps to bind with certain nutrients with the digestion. So maybe this is like some ghee, you know?

• 20:47Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, just a little bit of ghee, maybe a little bit of some stevie or something just to make it a little sweet, but. Yeah, but I mean, it's it's earthy. Nobody said reishi is delicious.

• 20:57Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I know, but it.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying?

• 20:58Jen Cohen?

  But it works.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, it does work, yeah.

• 21:00Jen Cohen?

  Cause I feel like it's not so much for people and myself. It's not about falling asleep. It's about staying asleep.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 21:07Jen Cohen?

  Do you have any recommendations for how people could actually stay asleep? Because that's the biggest problem I feel that's happening, especially in middle, middle age.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Yes. So, number one, we have to move away from adding so much morality to you sleep through the night, like you're doing everything right.

• 21:30Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  We have sufficient documentation of people centuries ago waking up, basically having two sleeps, you know, waking up after a certain amount of hours, maybe, you know, having a little snack, maybe having sex, maybe whatever the case might be, and then they go to sleep again. But this is a time, again, we didn't have artificial lights, so you're not getting on your phone, it's still dark and it's not safe to be out rummaging around, so you get the rest of your sleep that your body might be looking for. So, this doesn't have to be this black or white, like, the reason that we might wake up, which we wake up, all of us wake up, but we're just unaware of it, because we're going through our sleep cycles, right?

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Going through the different quote stages of sleep, right? And so there are times when we have very light sleep, where we're kind of out, we can wake up, maybe we move around, whatever, and then we just drift back into, you know, into our sleep. But some people have a more pronounced waking up when moving through those stages. And today, unfortunately, we start doing shit. Maybe we look at our phone, or we look at the clock and we're like, oh shit, I have, oh, I have two hours left, like, oh my, and we start stressing about it.

• 22:46Jen Cohen?

  Anxiety, yes.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  And that is just, is so unnecessary, because you are okay. If you just slept for, you know, five hours and you still had two hours, maybe your body is just ready to get up and that's okay. But a big reason, if this is kind of chronic and you are seeing the negative side effects, it has a lot to do with cortisol spikes. All right, so, again, the rhythm, you might be getting, you know, some inappropriate release of certain hormones, and it's not all, cortisol's not bad, by the way, but maybe it's just like you're getting a certain spike, and this could be based on when you're eating before bed. Maybe you ate something close to your bedtime, or maybe you didn't, maybe you ate too far away from your bedtime, and that's not appropriate for you.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Because, you know, now it's like, don't eat two hours before you go to bed, or three hours, or, you know, three hours is the main thing people talk about. That's great for most people, actually. For some people, their blood sugar goes too low.

• 23:44Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  While they're sleeping, and that can pull you, you'll get an adrenaline boost spike, and it can wake you up. And so, or again, it could be, for most people today, what it really boils down to is we're creating disruption with our natural rhythms because of our devices.

• 24:00Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  You know, and so, being on your screen right before bed, you know, watch, whatever, television, your phone, whatever, we know we need a little bit of time to help our.

• 24:11Jen Cohen?

  Down.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  There are multiple studies on this now. Uh, when I shared this almost fifteen years ago, it was kind of like, what? Like, yeah, so we know that that's the case. If we do wake up, just don't get on your phone. Like, you could do some breathing exercises, do some breath work.

• 24:26Jen Cohen?

  That phone, though, you're right, it just, then you're, then there's no way you're going back to bed. But why is it because we're doom scrolling and the light, the blue light and all the things?

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:36Jen Cohen?

  Would you say?

• 24:36Speaker 02

  It's fortifying, it's fortifying that interruption in the, in your normal rhythm.

• 24:41Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  So if you're getting up and getting on, so now, again, you might take a couple of nights off and not get on your phone and like, struggle. You, your body has to have time to get everything synced up again. Because our bo, our brains are always looking to automate, always. And so, this is why it's so important to have, you know, to try to do stuff around the same time to the best of our ability, especially when we're kind of discombobulated. So this is why the morning routines and evening routines, they're uber valuable for people who are out of sorts.

• 25:13Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Right? Once you have some pretty good rhythms, it's okay. And this is a problem with the health community now, too, is it's like, you can't stay up late, you know what I mean? For, if there's an event, like, no, I gotta, and I know this because I've been that guy. But like, it's okay. If there's like this thing, you got family in town, it's okay.

• 25:32Jen Cohen?

  Oh, I, I think, I think everything, we've, we've taken things to such an extreme that nobody has fun anymore. Nobody has, no one's living life anymore. It's all about like, you're, what you're, tracking your wearables, tracking your blood glucose, tracking your sleep, tracking this, doing that, like, everything, we're all walking around as robots, and then we die, right? Like, you know what I mean? It's just kind of crazy what's happening. Like, I mean, I was gonna actually even ask you, like, do, do, do you think these wearables are just making us more obsessive? Or are they actually helping us at this point?

• 26:05Speaker 02

  That's such a great question. Thank you for asking this because again, when it comes down to any of these things, it is so individual. It is so situationally dependent. Part of my work, you know, in the health space, I've been in this field for about 23 years. And when I first started, you know, speaking and, you know, my show, we just celebrated 13 plus years and over a thousand episodes. Even prior to that, thank you. Prior to that, I was the face of another, I was like the resident nutritionist of another brand. And being this kind of prominent person in the space, but like showing up how I am, I'm not wearing a lab coat. You know what I'm saying?

• 26:48Speaker 02

  I'm just being a cool person, which really helped to connect with a lot of people and made them interested. And also we have, I mean, I can't even tell you how many physicians have been listening to the show for years and influencing their patients. And many of them are actually like very prominent now in the health space. Like they've changed their career, Dr. Darshan Shaw, Dr. Amy Shaw. I can go on and on and on. They've been listening to my show for years. Right. And so with that being said, and just this kind of opportunity that we had to kind of create this platform and showing up this way, I used published data as a way to kind of, it's like inception, like to get past the veil of disbelief. Because this cool handsome guy is like, tell me whatever.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  So I'd be like, here's this amazing study that was conducted by researchers at, you know, Harvard, who I probably know, but you know, and I'll share the data and then we'll just talk common sense. I, I think that is so important. It's so valuable to have objective hardcore data. Because there's so many different claims, there's so many different, you know, pieces of advice. We want to have something that's affirmed by science. The problem is, so I created that because I had to. I did that intentionally because I had to. Now people in business are doing it, people all over the health space. It's taken off like a rocket and a lot of content is created around data. I'm so grateful for that. This is way better than the. Rigor, morale, craziness that it once was.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  But the problem is we swing too far to the other side of the pendulum. Now it's just like, where's the evidence? Is this evidence based? Where's the evidence? What happens when we do that is we negate the value and the importance of N of one. N of one experiments. This quote anecdotal data. Something might work for you that hasn't. It's not shown in any other study. It's not this, it's not that, but it worked for you. And that's okay. That matters. And that's actually how we can get more data on something. We can't just negate somebody getting some benefit or somebody being harmed by something. Right? N of one is so important because, and all this to say, everything is not appropriate for everybody. And some things are madly effective for people.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  When it comes to the wearables, this conversation, for certain people, it's a game changer. They gamified, gamified it. It's helped them to stick to their goals. They feel good about it. They don't feel a sense of stress around it. For others, they've become more neurotic. It's become a source of stress. They're always trying to optimize and they're losing track of themselves. They're losing track of what we've survived with and evolved with, which is paying attention to oneself. The data in the body that you live in, paying attention to how you look, how you feel, how you feel. Just paying attention to how you actually feel and how you perform. Like, how are you actually moving through the world?

• 29:46Speaker 02

  Like, paying attention to these very basic data sets. In lieu of, well, I, I'm not going to perform at my best because my, my, you know, Fitbit or my Whoop is telling me that like, I only got a 66% sleep score and like.

• 30:01Jen Cohen?

  That's what's, well, that's basically what's happening, right? So like, the thing is, as I'm wearing my Oura ring, which I only started wearing recently. I found it in my, I, I wore it for a bit and I put it away like I did with my Whoop and everything else. And I'm like, oh, it's here. I'm going to start wearing it again. And I'm like, I thought I slept well. And then it says to me, no, you didn't sleep well at all. You had 66 and blah, blah, blah. Thing is like, I think it just gives people, I, I think it gives me personally a little bit more anxiety. Cause now I'm like, oh my God, maybe I didn't sleep well, man. I like, it gives you all this more neuroses that was like completely unnecessary. Like what I remember before fitness and wellness became like a massive, you know, business, so to speak.

• 30:42Jen Cohen?

  I was like, I was like working out like 25 years ago, doing the same, like I do the same boring shit every single day. And like, I'm not following the trends and I'm just fine. And I don't think that, and maybe you can, you can tell me with all your data points, are we healthier now? When we're now following every data point and doing every single thing, red light this and that hyperbaric chamber and that like, are we healthier or are we just more neurotic and stressed out?

• 31:08Speaker 02

  This is such a great question. You didn't know, you didn't even know, I didn't even know you was gonna ask about this. But right now I'm working with somebody who's published a lot of studies.

• 31:18Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  And very prominent researcher, uh, research scientist. And working on putting together like a pilot study on this stuff because the data doesn't exist yet.

• 31:28Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  And so this is something that I've been actually actively, because I see it, again, a great example, my wife. She loves, she loves tracking her data. She loves it. And she, but she's also very, she's a very lighthearted personality to where it's not, she's not going, right?

• 31:48Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  So it's okay either way, but she likes to know. It inspires her.

• 31:52Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Right? And just so people are aware, I'm the guy, they've, the whoop, the or, oh, they send me this stuff in beta. They've, reaching out for me to be in an early investor, like I know all these guys, but I couldn't wholeheartedly get involved because again, I know that there is this other side of the equation. All that to say, I don't want to rain on anybody's parade at all. If it is working for you and you feel good about it, that's what matters most. And on the other side, you've gotta be honest, like if it's. If it's not good for your mental health. Because again, there's nothing worse for your sleep than creating anxiety about your sleep.

• 32:32Jen Cohen?

  Well, a hundred percent. The other thing I noticed, and I just, this is just my like pattern recognition or observation, is that the OGs, like people like me or you who've been doing this stuff, you know, for our whole life, basically, like, because it's embodied in us, in our DNA. We're not so much about all of that. Like, every major athlete, by the way, I've spoken to, like, the top, the best in the world. Like, I ask them questions, they're like, I don't know, I don't track it, or I don't know, I'm not doing that, or like, I don't know, I'm just, I eat okay. Like, they're not like as meticulous and crazy. What I think has happened is, is because it's new and trending, and it's become such a multi-billion dollar industry,

• 33:16Jen Cohen?

  and people who are newer to the game, they're using these, these little trinkets, so to speak, to kind of keep them in the game, or to keep them, or to get them in the game. And it kind of maintains the game for them, for accountability. But what I think it's people who have, like, it's so embodied in them, it's not as useful or important. You know, like, there are people watching, they have their glucose monitor, they're taking their blood with the other thing that they have. They have the aura, they have the, what do you call it, the whoops, they have like, they look like Mr. T. They're walking around looking like Mr. T. And I guess for them, it makes sense, right? But, you know, I don't think, I don't think it necessarily makes you any healthier, or, or I think it's just more of,

• 34:01Jen Cohen?

  it brings on more psychological, like, psychological neuroses, personally.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Newsflash, Mr. T did not stand for tech.

• 34:08Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 34:10Jen Cohen?

  Exactly.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, but again, you know, the, some of my friends and colleagues, like, really, they're They were, you know, were balanced.

• 34:18Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  You know, like I've been brought into like, you know, the big biohacking conference to, you know, do a keynote just because I'm bringing more grounded.

• 34:27Jen Cohen?

  More grounded.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  Energy and science. Like, I don't give a shit if you are doing the, you know, like, um, red lighting your nutsack.

• 34:36Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  If you're not even going for a 10 minute walk each day.

• 34:39Jen Cohen?

  Well, that's just like.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Right, like.

• 34:40Jen Cohen?

  Because you're majoring in the minors at that point.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 34:43Jen Cohen?

  You know, you're majoring in the minors.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  We're looking for these hacks. What are the things your genes expect you to do?

• 34:47Jen Cohen?

  Exactly.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  And once you do some of those things, it is, we need to guide ourselves back to ourselves. We're so externally focused today.

• 34:55Jen Cohen?

  Everything is.

• 35:02Jen Cohen?

  Let me share my daily routine game changer with you. It's the Momentous 3. I've been using their protein, their creatine, and omega 3 combo for months now, and the results are undeniable. These nutrients are key for long-term health and performance, but hard to get enough of through diet alone. The Creapure Creatine boosts both physical and your mental performance. The grass-fed whey tastes great with no weird aftertaste, and their omega 3 is a must for recovery. Since adding these, my energy, my recovery, and my overall well-being has really improved. So if you want better performance, this is the way to go. Visit livemomentous.com

• 35:48Jen Cohen?

  and use my code JEN for 35% off your first subscription. That's livemomentous.com code JEN for 35% off your first subscription. Trust me, you'll be happy you did.

• 36:11Jen Cohen?

  What would you say is the number one most important wellness habit, though, to kind of keep you on point and can kind of, you know, for longevity? What would you say the number one?

• 36:24Speaker 02

  The data is clear and experientially, it is beyond clear. If we want to be honest about this.

• 36:32Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  The number one most influential factor on your longevity, on your health, is your relationships. And this, it's not even close. And I'm a science guy. I love nutrition. I love exercise. I wrote the book on sleep wellness. All those things are massive. But nobody affects my sleep habits more than my wife and my kids. No one affects my exercise habits more than my wife and my kids. No one affects what I eat more than my wife and my kids. And one of my most valuable conversations, and it was really affirmation,

• 37:14Speaker 02

  because in a recent project that I did, and it actually in my latest book, in the Eastwater Family Cookbook, I shared one of the largest studies ever conducted on longevity. And this was done by researchers at Brigham Young University and University of North Carolina. And this, this was a meta-analysis of 148 studies, over 300,000 people, looking at what are the things that determine how long they were going to live? They looked at smoking. They looked at exercise habits. They, they looked at, you know, beating obesity. The number one thing that determined how long people were going to live was the quality of their relationships. People who had strong social bonds had a 50% increase in longevity

• 37:59Speaker 02

  versus people who did not. Okay? Said another way, people who have healthy relationships have a 50% reduction in early death from all causes. All causes. All right? Leading that into my conversation and being able to, again, support, uplift the work of, and to really dissect the data with Dr. Robert Waldinger. He is the director of the longest running longitudinal study on human longevity ever conducted out of Harvard, out of Harvard. And it's, uh, it's been going on for over 80 years. He's the fourth director. And the reason that we resonate with each other

• 38:43Speaker 02

  so much is that I tend to be, I'm not gonna say side eye, but I tend to be skeptical about stuff.

• 38:49Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  You know, and, but that also made me a good researcher, right?

• 38:53Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  So he came into it with skepticism. When he was offered the position, he didn't believe just like your relationships impact how long you're gonna live more than anything else. So he actually took it upon himself to really go through and fact check the data, decades worth of data. He went to other universities. He went to other research labs. Like, can you confirm this? And he was shocked. He's just like, yeah, it's very, very clear. The number one thing that determines how long you're going to live is the quality of your relationships. And so with this being said, now we get into the conversations and I can ask the guy who has the most data, why? Why? Like, it doesn't make sense. From the data,

• 39:36Speaker 02

  what he shared was the number one in kind of factor that they're able to kind of pinpoint is the impact that our relationships have on stress.

• 39:46Jen Cohen?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  And you're just like, well, again, now we have all this data affirming how stress is really fucking us up. And a recent analysis was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, and they affirmed that upwards of 80% of all physician visits today in the United States have a major stress related component. Up to 80%.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  But our physicians are not talking about stress. Our messages that we're getting are not talking about stress. Like, what the hell even is it?

• 40:18Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  And so, we can maybe drive into that conversation in a moment, but for this particular researcher, Dr. Robert Waldinger, he shared with me that, yes, stress is making us wildly unhealthy. Healthy social bonds are a very powerful way, the most powerful way, to help us to metabolize stress, to process stress. And I asked, why? Like, what is it? He's just like, because I would think like, oh, it's talking things out. Right? It's cathartic, but it's not even that. He shared that it's this overarching feeling, or this sense of knowing that somebody cares about you, that somebody has your back. That somebody is there for you at the end of the day, even if you had the most stressful day.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Just that sense of knowing in this very uncertain universe, it's arguably the greatest gift. And so, keeping that in mind, I asked, what are the ingredients of a, quote, "healthy relationship", or these strong social bonds? I was like, so does this mean like, we'll just use romantic relationships. Does this mean like, you guys don't fight a lot? He was like, and I'm just kind of imitating, but he's like, no. The people who we studied, and we have them on film. We go and track these people down every year, and take their blood work, and we have interviews on camera. People with the healthiest long-term relationships fought like cats and dogs. And, you know, again, I'm just like, really?

• 41:45Speaker 02

  And he was like, but, they have a bedrock of affection. They might like nitpick with each other and mess with each other, but they touch a lot. They look at each other, they see each other, they honor each other. And even though they might have conflicts, they know that they are their person.

• 42:05Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  You know, they're there for them, they have their back. They might have their annoyances and their grievances and their bickering, but those are not the things that create a healthy relationship. And so, I've been investigating for the last two years, like, what are those ingredients that do create a healthy relationship? And that's really where my, where my mission is at, where my work is at. Because, by the way, I haven't shared this before, so... I've shared this before in an interview.

• 42:33Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  When I talked about our relationships impacting, because I just worked out with my wife today, right? And it is one of the most powerful leverage points that we can use for, because if we struggle to be consistent working out. This incredible study was published in the Journal of Sports Medicine and Physical Fitness, and it tracked the exercise habits of people who worked out with their spouse compared to people who worked out without their spouse. Over the course of a one-year study, tracking these people. People who worked out without their spouse dropped out of their exercise plan 43% of the time. People who worked out with their spouse only dropped out 6% of the time. Working out with their significant other

• 43:18Speaker 02

  led to them staying consistent with their exercise. It was six times more effective. All right, so again, it's this huge leverage point. And some people are just like, well, I don't have a significant other, they're not into it, whatever.

• 43:31Jen Cohen?

  Right, right.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  It's not just the significant other, though. And so this is what I haven't shared as well. So this was published in Health Behavior Research, looking at group exercise training to boost exercise compliance and consistency. They found that people who were signed up and engaged in group exercise were up to 97% more compliant and consistent in exercise over the course of an 11-week study. And that's like otherworldly, 97%.

• 43:58Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Showing up and compliant. And many people have experienced this. You know, the CrossFit movement, for example, or, you know, just their group exercise, that they just have to go, whether it's the people there, the teacher, the energy in the room, just not being alone and doing stuff together with a group. That's how we evolved.

• 44:16Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  And so it's an epigenetic influence to utilize. So again, it's these relationships. And I could do this for sleep. I could do this for exercise. Again, I could do this for our nutrition, of course. That's really where my, with the Eat Smarter Family Cookbook was, was really devoted to was the impact that our relationships have on our nutrition. And it's crazy.

• 44:38Jen Cohen?

  A hundred percent. Well, that's why also lifestyle is so important. I feel like that's why when you're looking for someone, a spouse and someone, it's good to, all these things that make the most, make the most, the biggest dent is finding someone who you're like minded, who wants to do these things with you for all these reasons that we just talked about, right? That will be your biggest lever point, I think, in staying healthy, happy, and also like living the longest. What do you think about, and then actually, let me ask you this question because you've been doing this for so long. What would you say when, like, is the most popular question or that people ask you about the most? Would it be sleep? Would it be fat loss?

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 45:24Jen Cohen?

  Would it be, what would it be the most popular area?

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Yes, it's fat loss.

• 45:29Jen Cohen?

  Fat loss, right?

• 45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:31Jen Cohen?

  Still, was that always the way? I think that has always stayed the same, right?

• 45:35Speaker 02

  That's the concern for most people is they're being, being honest.

• 45:38Jen Cohen?

  Honest, right? Because people work out, you can say you're doing it for your health and longevity, which I think is true to some, you know, some degree. But the biggest right, like the biggest driving force is vanity, wouldn't you say?

• 45:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, again, it's, it's okay. It's, it's the framing of it, right?

• 45:57Jen Cohen?

  And like, and all these ripple effects happen from it.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Nobody's waking up like, I want to look terrible today, you know what I mean? And so that, I find that to be an inroads.

• 46:07Jen Cohen?

  A hundred percent, it's a gateway drug.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:09Jen Cohen?

  Yes, the gateway drug.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  And so, you know, it's a superficial thing, but also our, our outer appearance, so much of our, our outer world is created by our, by our inner world, right?

• 46:21Jen Cohen?

  Yep.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  And so, but there are people who are superficially attractive or look fit, who are wildly unhealthy.

• 46:27Jen Cohen?

  Very much so.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  And I, I definitely fell into that camp when I was like in college, for sure. I looked very fit, but I was not healthy. And also, again, that's, that's a great inroads, but the things that we're talking about are actually the way to get there. Like, sleep, for example. I mean, again, this was, this was one of the biggest leverages that I used to get the message across. Part of the reason a sleep wellness book hadn't done well previously was that it was lacking sexiness to be, to be a thousand. Like, I made it sexy specifically by connecting it to fat loss. And so, some scientists at the University of Chicago put people into, it was a ward study. So they're actually like in ward conditions, controlled conditions, where they're not leaving to go to McDonald's

• 47:13Speaker 02

  or they're actually in this kind of clinical setting, living there. And looking at the impact that their sleep habits had on fat loss. And so, and this is a crossover study. So not only is this like a controlled trial, they're having test subjects that go through both conditions. One condition being the sleep condition where they're getting adequate sleep. In this case, they got to sleep for eight and a half hours. And then there's the sleep deprivation, deprivation condition.

• 47:43Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  Where they sleep deprived them, now they're only getting five and a half hours of sleep at night. After compiling all the, and by the way, same exact diet. They're eating the same amount of calories, same macronutrients, all that stuff. The only difference is, one phase of the study, they sleep deprived them. In this study, after compiling all of the data, when people were well rested, getting adequate sleep, they lost 55% more body fat.

• 48:09Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Okay? And I, again, I want to stress is body fat, not weight. 55, because the weight actually, they lost pretty similar amount of weight.

• 48:20Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  In the different conditions, because they were on a calorie restricted diet. You can lose weight, yes. Where's that weight coming from? And so when they were sleep deprived, their body shifted. There was like a metabolic shift to using more of their muscle mass, burning it off. In this weight loss process.

• 48:39Jen Cohen?

  Wow, so their body composition changed.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. That's how powerful our sleep is because that sleep deprivation, this can be a signal for many things. One of the things it's signaling is a, is a threat. It is a threat. It's a threat to our survival. My human is sleep depriving themselves because there must be danger around.

• 49:02Jen Cohen?

  That's true.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  And we want to keep this fat. We can live off this fat. This muscle mass is burning off too many calories. We need to slow our metabolism down because there's obviously a threat around. We're not sleeping enough. And we can slow burn this body fat. We're gonna work to keep that on, right?

• 49:21Jen Cohen?

  That's crazy. That's a big amount. That is not, that's no joke. Well, I know also your, your appetite for me, if I'm not sleeping, I will eat double the calories because I'm just so much hungrier or my inhibitions go down, both probably, right?

• 49:36Speaker 02

  We have the kind of black and white weight loss numbers, but then we also have data on there's a major shift with leptin. When we are sleep deprived, higher, uh, greater increase in ghrelin, which is our kind of our glorified hunger hormone. We have many that drive us to eat. We have many that work to kind of quench that appetite, by the way. You know, GLP one is something we naturally produce, leptin, CCK, adiponectin. It isn't just this one, because again, when I was in school, we did have leptin, ghrelin. That was just, just these two. But we know that sleep, our sleep quality impacts all that stuff.

• 50:14Jen Cohen?

  You just said a word that I was gonna ask you about. Sleep quality versus sleep quantity.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 50:21Jen Cohen?

  What are you saying?

• 50:21Speaker 02

  That was a big part of the sleep wellness conversation that I was very passionate about ushering in and changing. Because even today, like I just had a conversation with somebody a couple of days ago. And they're like, so you do get, like, you get eight hours of sleep though, right? Seven to eight, right? I'm just like, let's pump your brakes. It's okay. It's like, it's not about that. Like, the quality of the sleep. That you're getting, you can be in bed or even passed out for eight hours, but wake up feeling like shit and like have low energy. It's the quality of those sleep minutes and I liken it to calories.

• 50:59Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  Right, the calories, all calories are not the same. The quality of those calories do make a difference.

• 51:05Jen Cohen?

  That's such a good point. That's a great analogy. Because, well, I got a couple of questions on that. First of all, just to, just to finish the sleep part, because I just want to finish it. Is there an amount that people should, amount of REM sleep people get, deep sleep? Like, is there like, if you're sleeping a six hour window, should they be getting an hour? Like, what's normal? What's a normal amount of REM sleep to have?

• 51:28Speaker 02

  After doing this work this long?

• 51:30Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. There is no such thing?

• 51:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's, it depends. It depends on you. It depends on your needs.

• 51:37Jen Cohen?

  Okay, fair.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  If you are training for a final exam.

• 51:42Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Versus training for a marathon, versus just stressed with kids. Versus like, the amount of time that you're gonna, your body knows what to do. And it's gonna be different. It can be different from night to night. Of course, there're gonna be patterns.

• 51:57Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  But there isn't any black or white. You should be getting 20% this, 40% that. It's just, it's not like that.

• 52:06Jen Cohen?

  Okay, so then if that's the case, if it's more like quality of sleep, you were saying something about.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  The main thing is efficiency.

• 52:14Jen Cohen?

  Efficiency. What I was gonna say is you gave the analogy of like calories in, calories out. So there's, that's still a huge argument though, right? There's, like, literally half the people say calories in, like, versus calories out. And there's another group that says, no, it's the quality of the calories. You're obviously saying it's about cap, it's not about the calories in, calories out. Like, if I were to have 500 calories of like a Mars bar, I'm just making, and french fries, it's not the same as having like a chicken breast and, I don't know.

• 52:44Speaker 02

  I can share, I can share 10 different things.

• 52:47Jen Cohen?

  I want you to, because I think this is, this is. People still talk about this.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  Yes, here's the thing. It's usually coming from people who are who found success with managing their calories.

• 53:00Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  It's usually coming from people who are inexperienced. It's usually coming from people who haven't helped a lot of other people with their system. Okay. And also, it is a valuable metric. Let me be clear. Managing calories, you absolutely do, even in the sleep study. People lost a similar amount of weight by cutting calories. But what did it do to your metabolism?

• 53:25Jen Cohen?

  No, cutting, you mean cutting sleep.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  By cutting sleep, yes, by cutting sleep. What is it doing to your metabolism? What is it doing to the way that your hormones, your neurotransmitters, and your organ function? Your mitochondria? It's changing you as an individual. It's actually changing how your body operates.

• 53:42Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  Right? And so it is a valuable metric. And somebody like myself, I'm always asking why? And also, where did it come from?

• 53:51Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  So the whole concept of the calorie was actually something that was first manifested in the field of physics. It had nothing to do with nutritional science. And what happened over time was it kind of parlayed its way in. And to find out how much energy was in a food, they use a bomb calorimeter. Basically, we'll just say we take a banana and we incinerate it. We incinerate, no, actually, let's do this. Let's take, um, let's take some almonds. Like, maybe use three ounces of almonds, completely incinerated, and see how much energy, how much it's heating up the water, basically. All right, so they use it, the bomb calorimeter, to see how much energy can heat up water. And so that tells you how much energy is in there.

• 54:36Speaker 02

  Okay, so this was 300 calories worth of energy. Number one, your body is not a bomb calorimeter. You, you're not actually absorbing all of that calorie, caloric energy that was dispersed. You are also, there's some indigestible aspects of those almonds. And so there's a study that I cited in my book Eat Smarter years ago that was, um, I'm just paraphrasing. Problem with the at-water system. All right, and the at-water system is the calorie system that's on all your food today. Which they're not using bomb calorimeter anymore. They're just using math. Okay. And, you know, just designating a certain amount of calories for the grams of protein, a certain amount of calories for the grams of fat, a certain amount of calories for

• 55:20Speaker 02

  the grams of carbohydrates. But with this, they found that when people consumed, we'll say again, 300 calories of almonds, their net gain or net, what they're receiving from those almonds was maybe 158 calories. There was a substantial amount of those calories

• 55:39Jen Cohen?

  Oh.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  that the body did not metabolize or utilize. And that's not what is edu-, that we don't receive that education. All right, so already the calorie conversation is a little sketchy, right? They're trying to measure and manage what's on our wrappers versus our goals. That's just one. This is minor stuff, though. This is mine. Let's get to the more major stuff here. So what I've designated, like I said, I could do 10 of these, are epicaloric controllers. They're determining how your body interacts with the calories that you consume. A huge epicaloric controller that we have now designated today and have a lot of data on is our microbiome makeup.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  Our gut makeup, our microbiome, this kind of cascade of all these different microbes, has a huge impact on what your body's doing with the calories you consume. We can literally have a difference of sometimes hundreds of calories. Two people eating the same thing.

• 56:39Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  And we see this in twin studies. This is why we know so much data on the microbiome. As far as like obesity, where they can live in the same conditions, eat affectionately the same diet, and then what one of the twins is obese versus the other, or overweight versus the other. And it's attributed to these categories of bacteria. You know, firmicutes being one of this kind of broad class. Like how, what's their ratio? So that's another thing. Another factor that we're now dealing with today is this term, this blanket statement given to this, these molecules called obesogens. Obesogens create obesity in the body. Obesogen.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Independent of calorie intake, it changes the way your body manages the energy that you're taking in. All right. So these obesogens, and we are exposed to billions of them, billions of them on a regular basis. Again, our air, water, food supply.

• 57:42Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  It's altering the way that people's bodies are interacting with calories. So it's an epicaloric controller, the quality of food. And this is where we're going to get to like more hardcore science piece. So in Eat Smarter, I shared this study that went bonkers. And this was published in the journal Food and Nutrition Research. And this was the quality of food itself. So they had people to consume a meal of ultra-processed foods versus a meal of whole foods to see the impact that it had on their calorie expenditure. So the two meals, same amount of calories again, same calories, similar macronutrients. One is ultra-processed cheese product. So like Kraft Singles and white bread. The other is a whole, quote, whole food sandwich,

• 58:28Speaker 02

  multi-grain bread, cheddar cheese. Okay. And also by a little sidebar, how are they tracking how many calories they're burning? Because what the researchers did was they were monitoring how many calories they burn post ingestion of the sandwich.

• 58:42Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  Okay. We breathe out most of the calories. When we're losing calories, we breathe them out.

• 58:47Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 58:48Speaker 02

  That's how our body gets rid of. Because we, we think like sweating, you know, like getting, but most of it is through our breath, through breathing. Yeah. So anyways, let's put a pin in that. So here's what happened after analyzing the data. When people ate the ultra-processed version of the sandwich, there was a dramatic decrease in the amount of calories that their body was burning after eating that sandwich.

• 59:13Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 59:14Speaker 02

  So we're talking like 40, upwards of even 60% suppression of calorie burn after eating that sandwich. Okay. And so what the researchers can kind of designate was something we'll affectionately call a metabolic or a hormonal clog. Like something happened to gum up the system and to suppress the efficiency of getting rid of those calories they consumed. Now here's the rub. This is a temporary thing. Over the course of the day, your body will probably sort it out how many calories you burn. But if you do that every day, meal after meal, what's going to happen? Your metabolism is going to be totally different. And I know this, this is what.

• 59:54Jen Cohen?

  That's true.

• 59:54Speaker 02

  This is how I ate, you know.

• 59:56Jen Cohen?

  Right, right, right.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  University drive through diet. And my metabolism was very, very different. And it's not about having an efficient metabolism per se. You know, like burning stuff off quickly because we survival as well. But it's having, it's not creating like artificial blockages to where your body's like, what the fuck is this fake cheese stuff? Like, let me just tuck this over here. My, maybe my liver can kind of deal with it, but like we got this adipose tissue.

• 1:00:24Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  We got space on the, you know, on the neck. We can go add some there on that, on your ass or whatever the case might be.

• 1:00:31Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  Like some of these compounds are sketchy. Let's just, you know, we'll figure this out later.

• 1:00:36Jen Cohen?

  So this sounds, that's interesting. So it sounds to me, it really depends on your genetics based on like how your body metabolizes some of this stuff.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  So there's nutrigenomics and nutrigenetics. Yes, that it's, but it's, that's only a part of the, it, it matters.

• 1:00:51Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  But it's only a part of, and I don't want to designate a certain amount, but it is a smaller percentage than a lot of these other epigenetic controllers. So epigenetic means above genetic control.

• 1:01:03Jen Cohen?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:01:05Jen Cohen?

  Above, yes, yes, yes.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  So epicaloric is above calorie control. It's controlling what the calories are doing. Okay, this is where we have to focus because again, calories matter. We can use this as a metric to get an estimate.

• 1:01:18Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  But these things matter more because they're determining what your body is actually doing with the calories you're consuming.

• 1:01:25Jen Cohen?

  Do you think we're also over protein? Like, are we just eating way too much protein now because it's become a trend? Like, I feel like everyone, if everyone's talking about protein, protein, protein, it's impossible to consume the amount of protein that people are like. When I say people, I don't know, it's like a very like general term, but like.

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:01:44Jen Cohen?

  But to keep lean.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  Especially if you're eating real food.

• 1:01:47Jen Cohen?

  If you're eating real food, that's what I mean. Like, I mean, and if you're not, if you're someone who's busy.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:52Jen Cohen?

  Right? Like, are you someone who believes that, like, how else could we keep lean muscle mass on?

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:58Jen Cohen?

  I mean, I think I told you a lot, like when I saw you last time, I take aminos. I take like, I drink these aminos with leucine. Do you like aminos? Have you taken aminos or no?

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  I mean, there's room for for these things, sure.

• 1:02:11Jen Cohen?

  But what would you suggest? Like, what, what, how do we like, I mean?

• 1:02:14Speaker 02

  Food first?

• 1:02:15Jen Cohen?

  Food first, always.

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:18Jen Cohen?

  But what I'm saying is to keep muscle on, which is, of course, the longevity organ. We all talk about that.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  For sure, yeah.

• 1:02:24Jen Cohen?

  But what are some ways, besides the things we ever, like lifting heavy weights, all the things?

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Jen Cohen?

  Like, how do we maintain lean muscle mass as we get older?

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. And just with the protein conversation, I'm grateful that we're having a conversation. So, and I wrote Eat Smarter, I wrote the book, it came out at the last week of 2020, but I wrote most of it into 2019.

• 1:02:49Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  And there was a special section dedicated to protein.

• 1:02:53Jen Cohen?

  Okay, tell me why.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  When I was in college, it was low fat.

• 1:02:57Jen Cohen?

  Of course.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  The conversation was so focused on fat, and fat was villainized.

• 1:03:01Jen Cohen?

  Do you remember, like, Snack Wells?

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  Of course, like, I did all that shit.

• 1:03:04Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:05Speaker 02

  The, um, Smart Ones, Lean Cuisine.

• 1:03:08Jen Cohen?

  Lean Cuisine, yes.

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  Then it shifted to carbs. Now carbs are the villain, low carb, you know, again, low has a place, low carb has a place. But it becomes this, like, thing where I talked about it earlier with the, the book situation.

• 1:03:25Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:25Speaker 02

  Publishers looking for, they want, uh, proof of concept.

• 1:03:28Jen Cohen?

  Proof of concept.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  So they love that shit. When I went in for Eat Smarter for that book deal.

• 1:03:33Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  You know, I was getting all these different offers, one of the, I remember very clearly, like, they're like, so what kind of book is this? This is gonna be like a keto book? Because, again, it's like, these things are trending, right?

• 1:03:42Jen Cohen?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  And so, but what was missing?

• 1:03:44Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  Oh, go ahead, no, you go ahead.

• 1:03:45Jen Cohen?

  No, I was gonna say, like, now everyone's writing a GLP-1 book, there's like 11 books out right now.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  It's trending, and it's, these are, these are the things that sell.

• 1:03:52Jen Cohen?

  But, sorry, what were you gonna say?

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  With that being said, it was, protein was just kind of left out of the conversation.

• 1:03:58Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  You know? And so, what I wanted to do is elevate that, so that we have intelligent focus on all of them.

• 1:04:05Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  But also to not hyper-focus on all of them, because we don't eat protein, carbs, and fat, we eat fucking food. We eat food. It's us, like, obsessing and trying to break down and

• 1:04:20Jen Cohen?

  Good point.

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  And, and isolate, and like, you know, separate. That being said, protein matters a lot, and this is the reason why.

• 1:04:29Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  It's not what, it's ju- just about the muscle piece, that, of course, that matters a lot.

• 1:04:34Jen Cohen?

  It's satiating.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  When, when we're looking at each other, we're mostly seeing the proteins that we've eaten.

• 1:04:40Jen Cohen?

  Oh, okay, that's what you mean, okay.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  So tissue, so when our genes are sending, you know, like the um DNA to RNA to protein.

• 1:04:49Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  Okay, when we're printing out copies of stuff, building blocks.

• 1:04:52Jen Cohen?

  Yep.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  Those are proteins, it matters a lot. Also minerals, I'm seeing your minerals, all that kind of stuff, but protein, building blocks, seriously. Number two, your hormones, they're proteins, okay? We need protein to make that.

• 1:05:06Jen Cohen?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:05:07Speaker 02

  To make them. Enzymes, enzymes are required for basically everything to happen in our body to do it. They're proteins, they're amino acids, amino acid base.

• 1:05:18Jen Cohen?

  That's why, that's why I have these aminos. And you keep on looking at me like I'm crazy, but you don't like them, I can tell.

• 1:05:23Speaker 02

  It's, again, it's just, it's a, it's a small percentage versus the big movers of like real.

• 1:05:30Jen Cohen?

  Real food, it's always about real food.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  I'm a fan, certain like, you know, the protein supplements, you know, amino acids to be in the mix, but a lot of people are.

• 1:05:38Jen Cohen?

  How many shakes can you have in a day? How many shakes can you have in a day? Like when you're old, like me, or whatever, I mean, I feel like there's like anxiety over how much protein you're eating.

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and our, our ability to, to actually utilize protein does go down as we get older, but it doesn't have to go down substantially. There's certain things that we could do to still metabolize. That's where the data's really at, is for the utilization of protein, especially in, in the older populations. It is important to focus more on it, but here's the thing.

• 1:06:08Jen Cohen?

  Are we the older population?

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  So, not quite, not quite, but what tends to happen, the protein, like, we're eating too much protein, that was this, it's a narrative based on our consumption of all these ultra-processed foods. It is easier to eat more protein if I'm eating that shit.

• 1:06:26Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  Right? But it's also way easier to eat sugar. It's way easier to eat carbohydrates.

• 1:06:30Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  Maybe those things in the, maybe those things are problematic too, but again, we're isolating things.

• 1:06:35Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  What you found, what most people find is that when you're eating real food, it's difficult to eat a lot of protein. It's like, you're just too satisfied. And so, we can lean into that, because what your body is signaling is that this is something that's satiating. You are getting a lot of value. You're gonna find that your mood is better. You're gonna find that your, you know, your hunger cues, hunger cravings, hunger and cravings, which are kind of slightly different. Those things are now more regulated.

• 1:07:03Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  You're making better food choices. You're sleeping better. All these other positive things happen. This doesn't mean that we gotta try to force ourselves to eat more protein. But some of us have tricked ourselves into not eating enough protein because of some other things. Maybe this is we get a big satiating effect when we have coffee in the morning with our fat in it, our butter or our cream or our protein, whatever we're putting in coffee. And then we don't eat for four hours.

• 1:07:30Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:07:30Speaker 02

  Because of that, right?

• 1:07:31Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  Or maybe we're so dedicated to our intermittent fast and we're missing out on getting in the protein. And your body is always looking for being able to automate.

• 1:07:39Jen Cohen?

  Automate, you said, right?

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  And so you've trained yourself to not eat a lot. And maybe again, so why this matters also is that protein really is the most prominent as a signal for safety, for success.

• 1:07:55Jen Cohen?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  Like, your body's like, because it's used for so many things to regenerate you and to keep you healthy. Okay? So when you're getting in ample amounts of protein, this can be very effective with helping to metabolize stress, the whole cortisol phase and like the cortisol belly. Like it can really help your body to get safety signals.

• 1:08:18Jen Cohen?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  That it's okay to let this weight go, right? Again, not to negate calories, but it's shifting your metabolic blueprint so that it's more efficient in getting rid of body fat.

• 1:08:31Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  And we know that that protein helps our bodies to preferentially protect our muscle.

• 1:08:37Jen Cohen?

  Do you think cardio maintain, like, keeps body fat on our bodies? Or is it helping with losing body fat? The reason why I'm asking is, there's, again, I'm just asking these questions and I know that there's all these like contradictions, right? No cardio, only do that. Have you heard of that 12? I think I asked you last time, 12, the incline 12 and the speed at three for 30 minutes? Have you heard of this workout?

• 1:09:04Speaker 02

  Mm-mm.

• 1:09:05Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, it's like very popular and everyone's doing it. They're saying that's like the greatest workout since sliced bread. I think it's fine, but it's not going to change your body composition, right?

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  It's always something.

• 1:09:15Jen Cohen?

  It's always something, right? Like also HIIT training, also whatever it is.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Jen Cohen?

  To change, we're not talking about movement for, you know, your steps. Obviously, it's very important.

• 1:09:32Jen Cohen?

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• 1:10:16Jen Cohen?

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• 1:10:59Jen Cohen?

  Let's talk about body composition. How do we actually? What are the ways we can change our body composition? Besides lifting weights? Is there anything else we can do?

• 1:11:11Speaker 02

  Well, sleep.

• 1:11:12Jen Cohen?

  Well, sleep. I forgot, obviously, sleep. Sleep, lifting weights.

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  As far as like the cardio being effective for fat loss.

• 1:11:18Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, like for anything.

• 1:11:19Speaker 02

  Losing muscle.

• 1:11:20Jen Cohen?

  Do you think cardio is a good strategy for fat loss?

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  This goes back to in a one.

• 1:11:26Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  Okay? It depends.

• 1:11:28Jen Cohen?

  On who you are.

• 1:11:29Speaker 02

  Yes. It's context driven, right? For some people.

• 1:11:32Jen Cohen?

  You always say that.

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  Because it's the truth.

• 1:11:34Jen Cohen?

  I know. Nothing's, there's not like one thing that's like, one thing that suits everybody, right? Yeah.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  There are certain things that have a, they're much more universal, like walking.

• 1:11:45Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  Because we're bipedal, it's just something our genes expect us to do.

• 1:11:49Jen Cohen?

  Exactly.

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  And also, we know that our metabolism works differently when we're walking versus when we're running. You know, it will preferentially go and grab stored fat for fuel a little bit easier versus going through this kind of glycolytic path.

• 1:12:02Jen Cohen?

  No, talk about that. You're saying, are you saying that when people walk versus run, you'll burn more fat in the walking?

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  This is validated because I didn't believe it.

• 1:12:11Jen Cohen?

  I know, I still don't believe it.

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  Because it doesn't make sense.

• 1:12:13Jen Cohen?

  It doesn't make sense to me either.

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  One of the things that I was taught was that your body will, number one, it's like a life O' Fife O, like in accounting class. You know, last in, first out, first in, first out. So your body's going to use the last in, first out. So last in is the food you just ate. It's going to burn through that glycogen cash on hand first.

• 1:12:36Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  For energy processes. Then it'll go and break down glycogen, store glycogen if need be. After it burns through the cash, muscle, liver glycogen, that's like writing a check, right? It takes a little bit more time and then it will go to the fat certificates of deposit, right? Then, and only then, it will start to, now, remember this because I, when I was doing like my certification, there was like this chart of like getting to the fat burning zone.

• 1:13:03Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  And so, you know, you got to go through this process. Just try to get here and so you can start burning fat. In reality, your body is so much smarter than all this bullshit.

• 1:13:13Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:13Speaker 02

  It it's gonna use energy based on the demands and based on efficiency. What we forget in our mission to, you know, lose body fat and to get this body that we want to have. Your body's number one driving force is survival. It wants to survive and it wants to be capable. And so over time, we've evolved because of that walking experience of humans of walking around. You know, laboring and doing stuff, walking from location to location. Fat is a very efficient, slow burning fuel, right? And it you're not under threat if you're walking. Okay, this is very important. If you're running a long time, based on your biology.

• 1:13:56Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 1:13:57Speaker 02

  This could be, this motherfucker will not stop running. Something must be chasing them.

• 1:14:01Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:03Speaker 02

  Or they can't catch their food. We gotta keep going. Okay?

• 1:14:06Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  Not to say that's not valuable to do from time to time, or if that's just if it works for you. But for most people, it's efficient when we're walking because it's more parasympathetic. It's not like running is very, very sympathetic, fight or flight. It is what it is. And we can go and cleave off like there's like an amplification cascade where we'll start like burning off a lot of fatty acid. Not burning off, releasing stored fatty acids.

• 1:14:33Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  There's a difference between releasing and burning. It has to get to the mitochondria to be used for fuel. That's a whole other story. Most efficient way to do that is walking, actually.

• 1:14:42Jen Cohen?

  So zone two, you're saying?

• 1:14:44Speaker 02

  It it fuck the zones.

• 1:14:45Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, okay, thank God.

• 1:14:46Speaker 02

  Respectfully.

• 1:14:46Jen Cohen?

  No, please, I can't stand these zones, zone two.

• 1:14:49Speaker 02

  This is Twilight Zone.

• 1:14:50Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  Okay, but just you know what it's like to just go for a relaxing walk? Or maybe a little bit more brisk walk, you know, like you just be it's okay, just be cool. Just go walk.

• 1:15:05Jen Cohen?

  I know, just walk.

• 1:15:06Speaker 02

  And try and actually, this is a great opportunity to relax, to get into that parasympathetic, right? We've turned it into now, again, like we've got the um. You know, the street warriors with the, you know, with the weighted vest.

• 1:15:19Jen Cohen?

  Of course, everybody's wearing the weighted vest.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  I helped to popularize this. My guy, Michael Easter.

• 1:15:25Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, you're the second person that mentioned him today.

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:28Jen Cohen?

  Why did you just mention him just now? Because he, did he talk about the vest?

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  I mean, he's arguably the top person as far as like a voice, a research, because he mentioned it in one of his previous books.

• 1:15:38Jen Cohen?

  Which one?

• 1:15:39Speaker 02

  He's a New York Times bestselling author. I think it was the scarcity.

• 1:15:41Jen Cohen?

  Scarcity.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  The scarcity something.

• 1:15:43Jen Cohen?

  He was just here.

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  But yeah, but he's, but when he was on my show, it took off like wildfire.

• 1:15:49Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  It took off like wildfire, like the social media, all that stuff.

• 1:15:52Jen Cohen?

  The weighted vest part?

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:53Jen Cohen?

  What did he say about the weighted vest?

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  We do burn more calories. It is more efficient.

• 1:15:57Jen Cohen?

  You're adding more resistance. Yeah.

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  But here's something really cool.

• 1:16:01Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:01Speaker 02

  So I went to and worked with a leading researcher at UCLA, who's a gastroenterologist, actually. And he's been studying gravitational metabolism and how gravity is affecting what our, what our, what our metabolic health is doing. Not just our metabolic health, but also like our, our gut health.

• 1:16:22Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:16:23Speaker 02

  And so what was so cool, and there's this really fascinating study that found that people, when you lose weight, like your gravitostat, you have, just like the circadian clocks, just like you have a thermostat in your body trying to regulate your temperature. We have a gravitostat that is your body's kind of buoyancy or resistance to the forces of gravity. All right? And so when you lose weight and it's already, your gravitostat has been attuned to a certain amount of mass that you're carrying on this planet. What happens is your body is, this is part of the reason why it is difficult to change that set point and to lose weight and to keep it off.

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  Because your body is looking for, it's not just a superficial thing, but it's looking for stability and safety in this world, in this, the physics of this reality. And so what the researchers found was that people who wore a weighted vest, pound for pound, matching the amount of calories that they lost, kept the weight off much longer.

• 1:17:23Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  Yes, they kept it. And some of them. I mean, a study, you know, for towards the end of the study over a year later, maybe the people who didn't do the weighted vest protocol, they might have, most often they regain all the weight that they lost.

• 1:17:38Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  And a little bit more, just again, traditional stuff, traditional means. But maybe these people regain like 20% of the weight that they lost over the course of a year's study, for example. So it's just like, it was basically telling their gravitostat, telling their metabolism, telling their, you know, their brain, their biology that I still have this, this, this weight on me, this force on me, and it's okay. Basically, I don't have to gain all these extra pounds because I'm still carrying this weight around, in a sense. And I know that I'm making this very rudimentary.

• 1:18:10Jen Cohen?

  No, but it actually makes sense to me.

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  Right now.

• 1:18:13Jen Cohen?

  You know what's so interesting about that is we're not wearing the weighted vest for more than an hour a day, right? So how does that work?

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  They're wearing it all day. They're wearing it, basically, their waking hours.

• 1:18:25Jen Cohen?

  Oh, really?

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:18:28Jen Cohen?

  So.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I failed to mention that part, yeah.

• 1:18:30Jen Cohen?

  Okay, so that makes sense. So that's why they're gravit, that's why they're overall gravitational, or whatever the word is.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  Gravitostat, yeah.

• 1:18:37Jen Cohen?

  Right, gravitostat, that is, is the, they think, it's tricking the baseline to think it's much heavier than it is. My question is, I wear this weighted vest around all day, but it's only six pounds. Does that count? It's not really that heavy.

• 1:18:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, of course that counts.

• 1:18:54Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, but it's really small.

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  So what?

• 1:18:56Jen Cohen?

  It's better than zero, I feel. It's very comfortable, I like it.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  It's just, again, I, we even got into this, so, by the way, let me go ahead and share this study really quickly.

• 1:19:04Jen Cohen?

  Okay, go ahead, I like these studies, I love these studies.

• 1:19:06Speaker 02

  There's, there's multiple studies, but just here's one. This one was published in the International Journal of Obesity.

• 1:19:13Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  Analyze how gravitational loading during conventional calorie-restricted weight loss influences subsequent weight regain. Eighteen test subjects, six months. This is a crossover study as well. So six months calorie-restricted diet standard, and six months placing another arm of the study with the weighted vest, worn throughout. And so they were instructing to wear the weighted vest for about 10 hours a day, just living life, doing their typical routine. And again, it was increased by a pound. So they might have started off with a one pound vest, but maybe they had eventually lost five pounds. So they're wearing a five pound vest. Okay. So I'm just consolidating all the data here. The weighted vest group resting metabolic rate only went down by about 16 calories a day.

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  Because the metabolic rate will compensate as well. Right? So that's another reason we regain the weight is that you lose this weight. But your metabolism is going to slow down because for survival. People, when they didn't use the weighted vest, their metabolic rate went down by nearly 250 calories a day that they're burning less. Okay. Without the weighted vest.

• 1:20:19Jen Cohen?

  Without the weighted vest.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  Wearing the weighted vest, their metabolic rate only went down by 16 calories a day on average.

• 1:20:24Jen Cohen?

  That's it?

• 1:20:25Speaker 02

  That's it. And so this is why.

• 1:20:26Jen Cohen?

  16 calories?

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  This is why they were able to have a greater effect and more stability and consistency with keeping the weight off long term. So yeah, fascinating stuff.

• 1:20:39Jen Cohen?

  That's super fascinating.

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  Dr. Brendan Spiegel is the guy who, you know, I connected with at UCLA. Super smart guy. Yep.

• 1:20:47Jen Cohen?

  I love that. So because I always think that everyone has a baseline. You know, like, these are all just my like genisms, like no matter what I read or whatever, but like, I always thought like, you know what, like, there's only so much you can like, if, I feel like my body is very comfortable at a certain weight.

• 1:21:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:05Jen Cohen?

  And I can only tweak it that much here or there, but I'll always come back to baseline if I don't do the things I do. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  Of course, of course.

• 1:21:12Jen Cohen?

  And so, so I just, so there is accuracy around that. So then what do you think of all the peptide situations? Do you believe in peptides? Are you taking peptides? And you don't know. Okay. What is, that's good to know. That's good. You're saying you don't know.

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  I mean, I, I know some, but.

• 1:21:31Jen Cohen?

  No, but I'm glad that you said that.

• 1:21:32Speaker 02

  What I tend to do is, I'm not the guy rushing out and saying this and that about, you know, different things like, there's so, there's so much, there's, it's a bit of a.

• 1:21:42Jen Cohen?

  Do you take any? How about that?

• 1:21:44Speaker 02

  No, I have not. Yeah.

• 1:21:46Jen Cohen?

  What is your, I want to know.

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  Not against it though. Let me be clear.

• 1:21:49Jen Cohen?

  No, I'm not saying you are.

• 1:21:51Speaker 02

  There's some, there's some weird shit going on. There is, there's a lot of inaccuracy. There is some effectiveness as well with certain peptides.

• 1:22:01Speaker 02

  But it's just, it's a mess right now. It's a mess. And again, we're still doing that same habit of looking for that hack.

• 1:22:08Jen Cohen?

  Hack. Okay. Hundred percent agree with you. But that's like GLP-1s. Do you believe in them?

• 1:22:12Speaker 02

  Believe in is a strong word.

• 1:22:14Jen Cohen?

  Do you? Yeah. Okay, I'm not gonna change my word, though. Do you believe in them? Do you believe in me?

• 1:22:19Speaker 02

  They are effective. Yes, they are effective for weight loss. They're not effective for sustainable weight loss if you're not continuing to take them.

• 1:22:27Jen Cohen?

  No, I know. I've seen people gain back their weight in a month.

• 1:22:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, and of course, there are. I've got some colleagues who are testing to like do micro doses as they go on and to see if it had. But still, the jury is out on that. And also, just the accessibility for people to be that stringent is very, is very difficult and complex. When again, people are just looking to get the weight off.

• 1:22:51Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:51Speaker 02

  You know, and or get their blood sugar normalized and, you know, their insulin resistance and check whatever the case might be. So the unfortunate thing, I think with the GLP-1s is we're ignoring a part of biology, which is with that satiety, what normally would signal satiety is bioavailable abundance or of resources? Or what it would normally be signaling is that we are, that we have enough. Okay, just to put it in a kind of like a blunt statement, we, we have our needs are met. And I'm speaking about this from a biological, not like psychological, but like we have the protein that we need to sustain our livelihood. We have the minerals that we need.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  We have the, you know, the vitamins that we need. We have everything that we need to, to keep you alive and healthy. I'm saying all that to say that what happens, what traditionally what our hunger would be driven by is a drive to get these resources in. And so we're hacking the system.

• 1:23:55Speaker 02

  And we're muting a key part of our body's intelligence.

• 1:23:58Jen Cohen?

  Got you.

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  One of the largest reasons for overeating, chronic nutrient deficiency leads to chronic overeating. Okay, so our bodies are looking, hunger is largely driven by this desire to get things in us. And I'm saying this, this is what, it's not just

• 1:24:16Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:16Speaker 02

  hypothetical, this is what the data shows. So we will proactively seek out certain nutrients. There is an intelligence that our body has, but it's been all fucked up. And so a good example is, there are studies that were, multiple studies done on this, but they did some studies on sheep. All right, because they can kind of force feed them certain things. And so, but let's not even get into the force fed sheep, that's kind of creepy. Bottom line is this.

• 1:24:39Jen Cohen?

  No, I wanted to hear.

• 1:24:40Speaker 02

  If your body is deficient in.

• 1:24:43Jen Cohen?

  You know, finish the force fed sheep. I like stories like this. Tell me about the sheep. And then you can go home.

• 1:24:51Speaker 02

  Well, I don't, I don't want to talk about that.

• 1:24:55Jen Cohen?

  You did not go to sheep, okay.

• 1:24:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:56Jen Cohen?

  Tell, so basically.

• 1:24:57Speaker 02

  Have you seen Sheep Detectives? Like, it's fucked up.

• 1:25:00Jen Cohen?

  I've never seen it. Have you?

• 1:25:02Speaker 02

  Great movie, shout out to Hugh Jackman. The person who shared this study with me is Mark Shatzker. And he's got a great book called The Dorito Effect. Okay, so people should check that out, but I want to keep this in a human context.

• 1:25:17Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  So if we're deficient in, say, calcium, right? So we need calcium, not just for our strong, quote, strong bones.

• 1:25:25Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:26Speaker 02

  But for our blood to clot properly. It's an electrolyte, so it's like important in like signal transduction. It's fucking important. Historically, if we were deficient in calcium, our body, we would develop a craving for something that has calcium in it.

• 1:25:42Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:25:43Speaker 02

  Okay. Another great example is vitamin C, right? Deficiency, it's very abundant in so many foods, but the limeys, right? The skin scurvy. This drive to like gorge on citrus. Because your body has this craving for this certain thing to get that nutrient to run processes.

• 1:26:02Jen Cohen?

  So I guess I would my next, my next, my final question, supplements, supplementation. But I think you just answered it a little bit. What do you believe, what do you believe in supplementation? Do you, would you think that there are any essentials that you should be taking every day? Or what is your, what do you take every day?

• 1:26:20Speaker 02

  If you're deficient, yes.

• 1:26:21Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  But if you're, if you're good and you're eating a well-rounded diet where you don't need to. There's certain, I'm very big where I'm at today. I used to, a lot, lot of stuff. Different times, I've done all the things.

• 1:26:36Jen Cohen?

  I know.

• 1:26:36Speaker 02

  I mean, you can't even imagine what my cabinets have looked like.

• 1:26:40Jen Cohen?

  I'm sure. What do they, what do they look like today?

• 1:26:42Speaker 02

  Today, what I will occasionally take is an omega three supplement.

• 1:26:46Jen Cohen?

  Okay, occasionally only?

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, because I'm eating a lot of foods that are rich in omega threes.

• 1:26:50Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:26:51Speaker 02

  And also the quality, the sourcing of those omega threes matter a lot.

• 1:26:54Jen Cohen?

  Matters a lot, yeah.

• 1:26:55Speaker 02

  You know, you ideally want to have something that has azazanthin in it.

• 1:26:58Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I take that as a supplement even.

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, so.

• 1:27:01Jen Cohen?

  Is that bad?

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  No, no, not at all. It's protective of those omega threes.

• 1:27:05Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:27:06Speaker 02

  Magnesium occasionally, occasionally, vitamin C.

• 1:27:10Jen Cohen?

  You do take vitamin C?

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  Food-based though, food-based. So like a concentrate of a vitamin C dense food, like camu camu berry, amla berry, those kind of things.

• 1:27:20Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:27:21Speaker 02

  Um, because synthetic vitamin C, that's what most vitamin C supplements are. That's derived from genetically modified corn syrup, corn starch. And we've got multiple studies showing that higher incidence of kidney stones, less change. And one of these studies was actually done, the Journal of Cardiology. Looked at camu camu berry, C A M U C A M U, vitamin C versus synthetic vitamin C supplement or capsule or little emergency type packets, the shit that you'll see anywhere. And had smokers who, there is a strong oxidant, oxidative behavior to take both either, either of these. And so what they found was that there was no beneficial effect on oxidation or antioxidant effect taking the synthetic version.

• 1:28:07Speaker 02

  The test subjects taking the camu camu berry had a notable decrease in C reactive protein, which is an inflammatory marker, right? So we know the vitamin C helps, but the source matters.

• 1:28:17Jen Cohen?

  The source matters.

• 1:28:17Speaker 02

  So I'll occasionally take vitamin C, omega threes.

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  And yeah, I mean, those are the two main things that I'll occasionally take. But then there's some other stuff in the mix, sometimes like a turmeric supplement here or there, or, you know, maybe an organ complex.

• 1:28:33Jen Cohen?

  That's interesting, though.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  Because I eat real food and I eat a lot of good food.

• 1:28:37Jen Cohen?

  You didn't say one that everybody takes is vitamin D.

• 1:28:41Speaker 02

  You see me. You see my complexion?

• 1:28:44Jen Cohen?

  I do.

• 1:28:44Speaker 02

  Like, I'm outside, I'm getting ample amounts of sun, not against it.

• 1:28:49Jen Cohen?

  Right. I think everyone just jumps on bandwagons.

• 1:28:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:52Jen Cohen?

  And they don't even know. Like, I was on that bandwagon and then I checked my, you know, my levels in my blood and I was like three times, three times higher than I should have been.

• 1:29:03Speaker 02

  Damn, that's hard to do.

• 1:29:04Jen Cohen?

  Exactly. They're like, oh, everyone needs to take vitamin D. So I'm like, I'll take vitamin D. And then I'm like, oh, whoops, I almost poisoned myself with the vitamin D. So, you know, but.

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  And just because, by the way, I was kind of being, you know, funny about that, but like, just because your complexion doesn't mean that you're getting enough vitamin D.

• 1:29:20Jen Cohen?

  No, no, no, I know. You're being funny.

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  I mean, many people who have a darker complexion, African American, are deficient in vitamin D.

• 1:29:27Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:28Speaker 02

  It's like sunscreen, basically. And so, but I do spend ample amounts of time in the sun, at the right times, getting the UVB. And, you know, there's some vitamin D in certain foods, you know, but it's not, again, this could be like some sardines or like mushrooms. It's not the same, by the way, but.

• 1:29:46Jen Cohen?

  Sardines is like a big one, though, right now. Everyone loves sardines. It's a very.

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  You're gonna find some derivatives, like, again, there's D1, there's D2, but a vitamin D2 supplement is one of the most studied supplements. It's, I'm not, I definitely have had my fair share of vitamin D2.

• 1:30:04Jen Cohen?

  What about creatine?

• 1:30:05Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, vitamin D3.

• 1:30:06Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, D3.

• 1:30:07Speaker 02

  Vitamin D3.

• 1:30:08Jen Cohen?

  I was gonna say, you meant vitamin D3 with K2? Is that what you meant?

• 1:30:12Speaker 02

  Yes, and K2, yes.

• 1:30:13Jen Cohen?

  To help it absorb.

• 1:30:13Speaker 02

  How did you know? Yeah, that's exactly right, yeah.

• 1:30:15Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I'm not, this is what I do, too. I'm just, I'm just asking you the questions.

• 1:30:19Speaker 02

  Well, how did you know I combined them together?

• 1:30:20Jen Cohen?

  Because that's what most people do.

• 1:30:21Speaker 02

  Made a weird baby with it.

• 1:30:23Jen Cohen?

  Because that's what everybody does, because it doesn't absorb without the K2.

• 1:30:26Speaker 02

  And with the D and the K, if you like spell that out, sound that out, what does that sound?

• 1:30:33Jen Cohen?

  If you say the D and the K together?

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it sounded.

• 1:30:35Jen Cohen?

  Do you want me to say it right now?

• 1:30:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, say it.

• 1:30:37Jen Cohen?

  No, don't make me do that.

• 1:30:42Jen Cohen?

  Okay, so Sean, we're gonna wrap it up. Thanks for being on the podcast.

• 1:30:45Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah, this is awesome.

• 1:30:46Jen Cohen?

  This was amazing. I appreciate you. And what else? That's it. Well, for those of you who don't know Sean, listen to his podcast. He's very, very knowledgeable, as you can see. And we'll do this again, round three. Round two and a half.

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  Two. I love that.

• 1:31:03Jen Cohen?

  All right. Thanks, Sean. Talk to you soon. Oh, for those of you who have not subscribed, please subscribe. Also, always leave me comments. Tell me what you like, don't like, so then I can always make the show better. Thank you and goodbye.