Listen To These 40 Minutes To Unf*ck Your Life

Episode 598: Sam Parr ( https://twitter.com/theSamParr ) and Shaan Puri ( https://twitter.com/ShaanVP ) talk about which path is worth pursuing: money or passion? — Show Notes: (0:00) The rise and fall of the Lehman Brothers (4:56) The life we live vs the unlived life (9:13) How Jerry Seinfeld puts in the work (12:54) You don't have to save the world (21:45) “What would I work on if I wasn't afraid?” (23:27) Sylvester Stallone and the wolf at the door (30:10) Low Key Billy of the Week: Michael Pryor (39:29) Sam reflects on being popular (40:58) Sam and Shaan's "number" to walk away — Links: • [Steal This] Get our proven writing frameworks that have made us millions https://clickhubspot.com/copy • The War of Art - https://tinyurl.com/4w9evyk8 • Fog Bugz - https://ignitetech.com/softwarelibrary/fogbugz • Stack Overflow - https://stackoverflow.com/ • Joel on Software - https://www.joelonsoftware.com/ • Wander - https://www.wander.com/mfm (Enter to win a free trip and use code MFM300 at checkout for $300 off your booking) • Grab HubSpot's free AI-Powered Customer Platform and watch your business grow https://clickhubspot.com/fmf — Check Out Sam's Stuff: • Hampton - https://www.joinhampton.com/ • Ideation Bootcamp - https://www.ideationbootcamp.co/ • Copy That - https://copythat.com • Hampton Wealth Survey - https://joinhampton.com/wealth • Sam’s List - http://samslist.co/ — Check Out Shaan's Stuff: Need to hire? You should use the same service Shaan uses to hire developers, designers, & Virtual Assistants → it’s called Shepherd (tell ‘em Shaan sent you): https://bit.ly/SupportShepherd My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by The HubSpot Podcast Network // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Shaan Puri?

  So the quote is this, it says, "Most of us have two lives, the life we live and the unlived life within us. Between the two stands the resistance, more powerful than a locomotive and harder to kick than a crack cocaine habit. And here's the biggest bitch, we don't even know what hit us."

• 0:25Shaan Puri?

  All right, Sam, I gotta ask you about this. So I was watching that Lehman Brothers play. I don't know if you remember, I was telling you, I went and saw the Lehman Brothers play. And there's a line in there, there's a part that stuck with me. The point of the play is, it's talking about the generations of the Lehman Brothers, from the great grandfather to the grandfather. And I don't know if you know this story, but basically, they started out, they're German immigrants, they come to America, they land somehow in Alabama, and they open up a small little store selling fabrics. Okay, so somehow they went from German immigrants who had nothing selling fabrics in Alabama, to the fourth or fifth biggest investment bank in New York in like a couple hundred years. So how did that happen? The story is, how did that happen? And the transition goes, they're selling fabrics

• 1:10Shaan Puri?

  for, you know, for clothing in their store in Alabama. And then they realize they could just buy the raw cotton. So then they start going to plantations and buying the raw cotton and selling it to the guy who makes fabrics out of it. So then they become the largest buyer and seller of, they become a middleman. And they kind of like, they, in the play, they said they invent the idea of middleman. I don't think so, but like, they really popularized the idea of being a middleman, where they weren't making the cotton, nor were they making the fabrics, they were just in between, brokering the deals. And so then somehow that that ladders up and eventually they become a bank. And so it's like generation two or three. So what they show is it's realistic, like, one of the kids that took over was really smart, had new ideas, he's the one who turned it into a bank. But there's other kids who was

• 1:53Shaan Puri?

  like, maybe a little bit more of a gambler, and a bit reckless, and that put them in positions that, you know, maybe they shouldn't have been in, they got a little too greedy, a little too aggressive, which ultimately, in 2008 Lehman Brothers falls, and it's the biggest bank collapse in the history of the country. It's because of, you know, some decisions that were made Along the way, the seeds that were planted by, you know, the heirs, heirs to the throne. So in one of the scenes, it's the, the kind of the older generation and then the younger generation. They're both in the boardroom. And at this point, the older generation is kind of the figurehead. He sits there in the boardroom, but he's not the guy. He's not the guy making decisions. His son is the guy making decisions. And so I forgot who it is. Somebody asked them, some, some bank or someone else comes and asks them, they say,

• 2:35Shaan Puri?

  what is your secret recipe? What are the ingredients that let you do what you do? And they think long and hard and, and you know, I forgot what answer they gave, but it's something like it's the people or it's the, the trust that we have. That's what, that's the special ingredient. And then the son comes up and he goes, in our, you know, when we're baking, our flour is money. Some people use money to buy things. We use money to make money. Our flour is money. And like, that was like one of the big transitions where they became a bank versus becoming, before they were merchants who were like buying and selling products, buying and selling commodities. And it shows that like, once they have that realization, like they never go back.

• 3:17Shaan Puri?

  Meaning they just get more financialized, more financialized, more financialized, where they're trading on computer screens and they're trading these subprime mortgages and they're never, they're never issuing the mortgage, they're not living in the house. They're not, they're just, it's numbers in a spreadsheet from there on out, basically. And we've talked about this idea of like, what is it that you sell? And it kind of comes down to like, the way I think about this is there's many moments in my life where I'm choosing between two paths, the path that's opportunistic, meaning I see green on the other side. I see money on the other side. And then maybe the path that's more interesting or fulfilling. Yeah, art versus money. That's a good way of put it. Uh, but for others, it might be, others might be impact. It might be like making a difference in the world, right? That might be the fulfilling path for them. So.

• 4:03Shaan Puri?

  And as much as I could hear the advice, like you know, the answer, the answer is go do the fulfilling thing. However, me and many people like me out there are just wait, let me just make a quick pit stop over here and those pit stops add up. You have one pit stop after another, where you choose the opportunistic thing after, after I make this money, then I'll go do the thing. Or, well, this is too good to pass up. Right. And I do that many, many times. In fact, I am still doing it today, even as I am ashamed to admit it, I do that all the time. And so I wanted to talk a little bit about people who choose one path or the other, yourself, people you know well, and see if I can get a little

• 4:44Shaan Puri?

  bit of wisdom on this. So do you have any stories on this? Or I can share maybe something I'm reading right now that really stood out to me. But where do you want to start?

• 4:56Sam Parr?

  I want to hear the story because I think you're reading a book that I've always wanted to read, but I've refused to read it so far because I know what it's going to tell me. And I don't like that answer because it's all because it's hard. It's a hard thing. So you're reading, is it the War on Art by Steven Pressfield?

• 5:11Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, the war, the War of Art. So it's like the opposite of the art of war, Sun Tzu book. So it's the War of Art. And I wasn't going to read this book. And then yesterday I, I asked Diego, my guy, I was like, Diego, you read books? He goes, not really. But I'm reading this one book right now, pretty good, called The War of Art. And I said, give me the, what's like one thing that stood out to you? And he just screenshotted this patches that then I went and ran and tweeted out.

• 5:38Sam Parr?

  Wait, hold on. So you're not actually reading the book? You've just been inspired by one excerpt?

• 5:42Shaan Puri?

  This is the trigger. I'm just giving you the whole story here. So I got the excerpt first, which is actually a great way to decide to read a book. Then I read half the book last night. So it's a very fast read. All right. So the, so the quote is this, it says, "Most of us have two lives, the life we live and the unlived life within us. Between the two stands the resistance. Just like every sun casts a shadow, a genius's shadow is resistance. Resistance is faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and harder to kick than a crack cocaine habit. And here's the biggest bitch, we don't even know what hit us. I never did. From the ages of 24 to 32, the resistance kicked my ass from the East Coast to the West Coast, back 13 times again, and I never even knew it existed. I looked everywhere for the enemy and failed to see it right in front of my

• 6:27Shaan Puri?

  face."

• 6:29Sam Parr?

  That makes you sad, right?

• 6:32Shaan Puri?

  Well, that's one reaction to it. I felt the other way. I felt like a inspired rage. I was like, no, I'm not gonna have the unlived life within. So I pick up this book and I start reading. And there are a ton of just like banger passages that are, they're just so good that I wanted to, I wanted to, you know, talk a little bit about with you.

• 6:51Sam Parr?

  Keep reading a few more. What are the other good ones?

• 6:53Shaan Puri?

  All right. So the premise of the book, if you didn't get it from that, that is basically, we have the thing that's our calling, that we kind of know that we should do, or the direction we know we should go. And then there's us not doing it. And that's maybe choosing what to work on. But then there's just a day to day. So he'll point out like, you know, hey, you got that diet that you haven't stuck to? You got that, that book that you haven't written? You got that, that startup you want to go start? You know, of course you'll start it after you, you know, just save up a little bit of money. And he goes, you know, fast forward the clock, you're 40, 50, 60 years old, and you're that great author that never wrote a book.

• 7:28Sam Parr?

  And he gives tips as well. So he was like, if you're gonna be a writer, you must write every day. You don't not write because you don't feel good, just like you don't do this other thing because, like if you are just like feeling bummed, you still gotta go to work.

• 7:41Shaan Puri?

  He calls it the difference between an amateur and a pro. He goes, an amateur, they do it because they love it. That's what people think. He's like, oh, they love it so much that they only do it once every month? They love it so much that they never stick with it? He goes, you know who loves it? The pro. The pro who wakes up and shows up to work like it's, like it's a job, like treats it like it's a job. You don't not show up to your job. You do it every single day. And you do it whether you feel like it or not. You don't just wake up and decide, am I gonna do the thing or not today? And so he talks about being a pro and how the pro sits down and quote unquote, does the work. And the work is, he's like, I don't care what it takes. You know, you basically, you sit down and it, you know, it doesn't matter how long you sit there. It doesn't matter if you wrote three lines. It doesn't matter if those three lines suck.

• 8:23Shaan Puri?

  You did the work today. And that's soon enough. If you just do the work often enough, those three lines turn into 30 lines, turn into 30 pages. And those 30 pages turn into, you know, terrible, just mindless drivel to, you know, your best work. And the only way it gets there is by actually sitting down day by day and doing the work.

• 8:41Sam Parr?

  Do you follow Jerry Seinfeld at all? Because he talks about this topic all the time. He's one of the few comedians and actors and whatever you would describe him as, that actually gets into the tactical stuff of like what it goes through day to day. And he's like, I have a big pen and a yellow notebook and I write jokes like all day. Not all day. He said, I'll do like an hour a day, but I try to get it done just a little bit every day. And he goes, most of the time it's garbage. And then he talks about when he was writing Seinfeld, he was like, I would go into the office. I would go to my office and I would sit down and I would actually write things out. And then I had a process. And he's like, a lot of times I didn't want to do that, but I just did it anyway because that's my job. And I want to, and I need to be great. And so anyway, he's a really good guy to follow because he gets really specific about the tactics

• 9:25Sam Parr?

  behind this stuff, which people rarely discuss.

• 9:28Shaan Puri?

  Have you ever seen this clip of him at a comedy club, talking to a struggling comedian? Who's like asking, he just caught Jerry backstage and asked him for some advice about how to make it.

• 9:37Sam Parr?

  Yeah, what's he say?

• 9:39Speaker 02

  And it's just like, you get to a point, you're like, how much longer can I take it? What, what, what, is time running out? Are you out of time? I'm getting older. Please. I'm getting older. It's not, you can, listen, I'm 29. I feel like I sacrificed so much of my life. The last three years. You got something else you would rather have been doing? Uh, not. Other appointments or other places you gotta be? Not necessarily. No, not necessarily. I see all my friends are making a lot of money, a lot of money on Wall Street. I see like, you know, what? I just see that like my friends are, you know, they're moving up and I don't, I'm worried. They're moving up. They're moving up. Are you out of your mind? No, I'm not out of my mind. I just, uh. This has nothing to do with your friends.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  I'm upset. No, no. This is a special thing. This has nothing to do with making it? Did you ever stop and compare it to life and go, okay, I'm 29. My friends are all married, all having kids. They all have houses. They have some sort of sense of normality. I agree. What do you tell your parents? What do you, you know, how do you feel with that? They're so. You're so. Your parents, yes. Oh, I can.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  Your parents.

• 10:54Speaker 03

  Let me tell you a story about, uh, this is my favorite story about showbiz. Glenn Miller Orchestra, they were doing some gig somewhere. They can't land where they're supposed to land because it's an winter, snowy night. So they have to land like in this field and walk to the gig. And they're dressed in their suits, they're ready to play, they're carrying their instruments. So they're walking through the snow and it's wet and it's slushy. And in the distance, they see this little house and there's lights on on the inside and there's a a pile of smoke coming out of the chimney. They go up to the house and they look in the window and in the window, they see this, this family. There's a guy and his wife, she's beautiful and there's two kids and they're, they're all sitting around the table and they're smiling, they're laughing and they're eating. And there's a fire, fireplace.

• 11:37Speaker 03

  And these guys are standing there in their suits and they're wet and they're shivering. They're folding their instruments and they're watching this incredible Norman Rockwell scene. And one guy turns to the other guy and goes, "How do people live like that?"

• 11:52Shaan Puri?

  That's what it's about, Brian. And he just leaves the guy with this parable and the guy is just like, you know, stunned basically. But the point is like, this guy says that he's doing the thing that he loves, but he's like jealous of the, of the comfortable people who are, who are not living that life, basically. And like the true artists, the people who are gonna make, make the great shit, the people who are gonna live their sort of their, their most fulfilled life, they're the ones marching through the snow in the discomfort, but they're doing exactly the thing that they want to be doing. They chose this discomfort and I love that story.

• 12:22Sam Parr?

  I'm gonna remind you of something that we did. So in February, I think it was the Lego episodes, if you Google "My First Million Lego," at the very end, you had said something of like, I forget exactly what you said, but it was something where I remember the energy being, "I own this company, um, that, I'm not sure if it gives me purpose, uh, and it's not really related to my main thing." And I said, uh, "Well, you know, the, the product that you're selling doesn't necessarily have to be, uh, something you're passionate about. You could be passionate about creating great jobs or you could be passionate about, uh, creating a, a wonderful place to work, making it so your employees can afford a car, whatever." You know, that, it doesn't always have to save the world. And I think that kind of helped you a little bit. And I was reflecting on it because I talked to Brett Adcock the other day when you weren't here. It's gonna go live after this episode, I think.

• 13:07Sam Parr?

  So Brett Adcock, uh, started, uh, Figure, it's a humanoid robot company that like is one of those companies that you would peg as like, "It's gonna change the world," whatever. He did two things that were interesting. The first thing is I tried to nag him a little bit to get like some good content out of him. And I go Brett, you know, you're doing this world changing thing now. But before this, you had a company called Vettery, which basically is just like a glorified job board. And he laughed and he knew I would just give him a hard time. And it was a hundred million dollar company. It was a great exit. And he had explained how figures changing the world and how he was thinking about doing artificial meat. So meat that you grow in a lab. He was like, I was worried about these really big problems. And I go, well, Vettery was not a big problem. And he was like, he kind of laughed, but then he got serious and he goes, uh,

• 13:52Sam Parr?

  well, the way that I thought about it was that, you know, you spend 50 hours, 40 hours a week away from your family with a company. You should be spending it on something that you really truly love and enjoy. And that you get value out of. And I was like, you did it again, man. You just wove this story around something that makes it really inspirational and world changing.

• 14:15Shaan Puri?

  Is he saying that the job board is helping people find that? That's what he was saying? Or he was saying he got that out of it?

• 14:21Sam Parr?

  He got that out of it. And he was like, and it's not really a job board. It's significantly more complex than that. But I wanted to like, just give him a hard time to get, get, get him to come out of a shell. But he was saying like, he's like, well, no, it's not just a job board. Like we weren't just helping people get jobs. We were helping them find value in their lives and helping them find passion. And he did such a good job of telling himself a story that I also believe, I believe his story to be true. And the other thing, and anyway, it inspired me of like telling myself a story.

• 14:46Shaan Puri?

  These Lunchables aren't just crackers with cheese. If you think about what makes a sandwich, you must ask yourself, do I need all of it? Or could I reduce it in size? Could I have, could I do more with less? What is enough? And that's what the Lunchable stands for. It's a reminder of what is enough.

• 15:01Sam Parr?

  That's exactly what he did and I thought it was great. But then he's got this new thing. So his new thing, uh, it's called Cover. So if you go to cover.ai.

• 15:09Shaan Puri?

  It says, Cover is a AI security company developing concealed weapon detection systems. Covers technology scans, students' backpacks, I think, for concealed weapons in K through 12 schools. Our goal is to prevent school shootings by identifying concealed weapons inside of bags and underneath clothing. Apply to work here.

• 15:25Sam Parr?

  Listen to this. So he had just sold one of his companies, or no, sorry, one of his companies went public. It was called Archer. It was basically an electric helicopter. Big deal. It's a big deal. And he was thinking, what am I going to work on? He had three ideas. Idea number one was meats grown in a lab, which we've talked about, which is like, it's pretty insane that you have have to have all these cows in order to get ground beef. Is there a way that you can make real beef in a lab? He was really fascinated by that. And you read a bunch of research. He's like, that's on my short list, but that's not the one I'm going to do. The second idea that he had was robots, where he was like, we just can't get enough warehouse workers to fill these jobs. I wonder if a robot can fulfill this demand. That's what he ended up doing. The third one that he didn't do, that he was very close to doing, he read this study.

• 16:10Sam Parr?

  He read this study that was done, I think, or a research paper done in 2014 or 12 or something like that. And basically, it was about NASA creating this technology that could use, not exactly X-rays, but almost like a, like a sell your phone, like, like cell phone rays. And from 50 meters away, so about 150 feet, this thing that looks like a video camera can, a human being can walk in front of it, and you could see if they have a bomb on them. You could see if they have a weapon on them. You could see if they have anything underneath their clothes or in their backpacks. And he goes, that's amazing. I wonder what we could use that for. He saw this graph about school shootings, where basically there's something like a school shooting a day. And I'm not talking necessarily school shootings where it's like predetermined where I'm going to go and I'm going to like,

• 16:52Sam Parr?

  you know, have, be overly violent to 30 children. I'm talking about like kids who just have a gun in their bookbag at school, and someone says something rude to them, and they freak out, and someone gets hurt and shot. And he was like, that's what we need to solve that. We need to solve that problem. And so he didn't end up taking and running with that idea. He did figure. However, figure's kind of working a little bit, and he has a little bit extra money. And so he went and cold called the NASA guy who created this research report that explained the technology. And he convinced the guy to let Brett come and check the technology out. He has now since licensed it, and he's funded cover.ai with $10 million of his own money, and he's hired a team of NASA engineers to build technology, to build this stuff out. So eventually, they're going to start with going to stadiums, so you can see if someone's coming into a stadium with a weapon.

• 17:38Sam Parr?

  And then they want to like, give away that technology to schools to prevent school shootings, because schools don't exactly have money to afford the software. And he was telling me this story and I'm like, who wouldn't want to prevent school shootings? That's like the greatest thing ever. Uh, that's a, that's a really hard thing to compete against when I'm recruiting an employee to come and join a newsletter business versus like, you're gonna like literally save lives. And it got me thinking of what, what, what I was saying to you about, well, a company doesn't have to be X, Y, and Z. I felt that was a cope. I felt that when I heard what Brett was doing, I felt

• 18:10Sam Parr?

  solving big problems and going after your passion and not exactly caring about how big of an opportunity is. In some regards, in some ways, that is better than doing it the way that we, you and I tend to do it.

• 18:21Shaan Puri?

  Well, I, I think that, um, what Brett's doing is pretty awesome here. He, he did it as a, uh, you know, we talk about one chart businesses.

• 18:30Sam Parr?

  That's exactly what I told him on the podcast. I go, Sean's gonna love this.

• 18:33Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, it's a, it's a one chart business because, uh, we've talked about this before, which is some businesses, the best businesses really are so simple that you could just put up a single chart on a screen and say, that's why we're doing this. And the example we gave before was that the rise of cremation. So cremated funerals has grown from like, you know, less than 10% of the market to over 50% of the market. Now, the majority of funerals, I guess in the US are cremations, which is surprising to me still. Uh, but if you're creating a business that's around that, which we, we, we met these guys, um, I think after was the name of them. And like, they had a whole deck and I told them, I was like, you didn't need to send the deck. This slide three was enough. All you had to show me was that and say, we enable this. We make it easier to do a cremation. Like, look at this rise. That's what we're doing.

• 19:17Shaan Puri?

  And so the best businesses are one chart businesses. I know a lot of people that did D to C brands. And if you ask them about their D to C brand, they'll tell you this and that about the market that they're in and about the business model, about the direct relationship with the consumer. All they needed to show was time spent on Facebook. That's all these markets were based on. It was time spent on Facebook and Facebook and the CPM on Facebook. That's a, a single chart would have told you that. Hey, there's a new way to reach customers and it's called Facebook ads and we're gonna just work backwards from Facebook ads and start selling products via Facebook ads. That's really what happened in DDC over the last 15 years. And anyway, so when I asked Brett about like this idea, I was like, oh, so give me the pitch. What's the thesis around this? What are you, what are you excited about? He goes, oh, it's this Google image.

• 20:01Shaan Puri?

  And he just searched school shootings per year, pulled up the chart. He goes, and it's just a, it's like a up and to the right exponential, like it's like a, it's what you want a startup growth curve to look like, you know, starts really small and it starts getting bigger and bigger and bigger, except at school shootings. So you want it to go in the opposite direction. And, uh, cause I was like, dude, how do you have the time? Don't you just want to go take a nap? Like you want to be with the kids, but like, even if you're not with the kids, fuck it, take a nap, dude. Like, why do you, why do you, you're already working, doing one insane thing, competing with Elon Musk. How dare you go start another hard thing? And he's like, well, I have to, I feel like compelled to.

• 20:32Sam Parr?

  Yeah. And when I think about like, uh, you know, this isn't actually realistic, but I, when I think about a company trying to compete with Brett, when you're recruiting someone, it makes it really hard. And I asked him, I go, uh, why do you do these big things? He goes, well, I think big things in many ways are easier. Uh, it's easier when I have this crazy, awesome mission to get employees, investors, customers, like it's just, it's just actually easier. And it kind of, it messed with my mind a little bit.

• 20:59Shaan Puri?

  So my takeaway from that, by the way, is not that you have to go solve a really gnarly problem in the world to be doing something. Um, I think that is definitely one path. And the way I think about it instead is instead of saying, what should I do? A better question is what would I do if I wasn't afraid? Like if I wasn't afraid, what would I go work on? And usually you're afraid of failure. Usually you're afraid of it not working out. Usually you're afraid that it might be too hard. Like, so for some people, it might be starting a humanoid robot company might be the answer, but you're not doing it because you're too afraid that like, it's too hard. I don't really know how to do that. It's, it'll take too much money. What if I can't raise it? What if I do this or if I do that, I'm competing with Google and Elon and all these people. And so they wouldn't do it. And for other people, like for me, it's a creative endeavor, right?

• 21:44Shaan Puri?

  It's to say, well, what, like, I don't know. I think the thing I really want to do is go write this killer book or go make a TV show or go do something really, really interesting. And the reason I don't do it is because it might fail, right? I might spend a couple of years writing a book and it comes out and people are like, "Yeah, cool book, man." And that's it. That would be disappointing and that would be the failure. And I think one of the good things about, um, about this book that I was reading, The War of Art and, uh, some other stuff I've been consuming is you, you really separate the like choice of what you do and the result of what you do as two different things. And like, you know, you control the controllables. The thing you can control is did you spend the time doing the thing you really wanted? And did you give it your all? You cannot control the outcome. And if you go listen to Rick Rubin talk, he says the exact same thing.

• 22:29Shaan Puri?

  He goes, "Your job is not to make it popular. Popular is not something you do. You don't make popular. You make stuff and you make a lot of stuff. You put your best stuff out there and you do your best job doing the best stuff you can. And popular, I mean, that's not even something you think about. That just happens or it doesn't happen and it's irrelevant at that point, whether it happens or doesn't happen because you're just going to keep making stuff. And eventually popular starts to pay attention to the guy who's making a lot of stuff. We talked about Rocky in the last episode, the story of Sylvester Stallone. So after the episode, I went and did like a deep dive on it. I went and I watched Rocky last night and I watched all of his old interviews from the 1970s and I really got into it. And there were so many good parts, but the one thing that he said, uh, he's in, he's being interviewed by this guy. And this is, the movie's come out, it's, it's been a success at this point. And he, but it's like a year in.

• 23:15Shaan Puri?

  And he says, you know, so they offered you a lot of money for this and you needed money. We talked about how he had to sell his dog because his dog, he had a big like mastiff and it was eating too much. He's like, "Either I'm not going to be able to feed the dog and not feed myself or I sell this dog and then I can feed myself and then hopefully the new owner will be able to feed my dog. And as much as it killed him to do it, he's like, I have no choice here." So he was like down in the dumps and he, the way he says it, he goes, "I had a hundred and $6 in my bank account. I had a $300 a month rent and I had a pregnant wife." And he goes, "The wolf was at the door." I love that phrase. He goes, "The wolf was at the door." Why did you, because they're like, "How did you write it in three and a half days? The, the, the V1 of the script." He goes, "The wolf was at the door. I had no choice." And so he, um, and they were like, "But then they offered you money for this, like a lot of money for this." He goes, "Yeah." They go, "How much they offer you?"

• 24:00Shaan Puri?

  He goes, "Well, first they offered me about a hundred thousand and I said, 'No.'" And then they came back with a hundred fifty thousand. They're like, "Why'd you say no?" He goes, "Well, they said, 'We'll take the script, but like, you know, you go away. We, we will go get Burt Reynolds to, to be Rocky. Like, we don't need you to be Rocky. We like the script." No, that's who they went to. They went to Burt Reynolds.

• 24:19Sam Parr?

  That's insane.

• 24:19Shaan Puri?

  They went to three or four guys who were big at the time. And he's like, no, I only want to give you this script if I'm gonna be Rocky. And they were like, oh, God, okay, forget it. Then they came back 150,000, but you're not Rocky. No, the final offer was $265,000, but you're not Rocky. And he says, no. And they go, he goes, how did you say no to $265,000?

• 24:40Sam Parr?

  Which is the equivalent, that's like 800 grand now.

• 24:43Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, exactly. It's like a million bucks, basically. And they, they were like, uh, how did you say no when you had $106 in the bank? He said a couple of lines. He goes, he goes, um, it's not, he goes, it's not that hard to say no to money when you've never had money. You don't even know what money is. He goes, he goes, if you've never ridden in a Rolls Royce, you don't mind bumping around in a Volkswagen. It's all you know. He's like, I goes, I didn't have a frame of reference for that. He goes, I did want to get out of some misery. He's like, my landlady was a, a big, just beast of a woman. And she would, you know, she would show up at my door every month and her, she was so large, she cast almost like a shadow at the door. He's like, and I just remember being afraid of that shadow all the time. He's like, but I, you know, my goal was rent. My goal wasn't $265,000. I didn't need all that.

• 25:26Shaan Puri?

  But, and he goes, um, they go, but you know, they go, did you ever have any doubts? He goes, yeah, he goes, before, when I was telling them, no, I was saying, are you kidding me? Burt Reynolds, that guy, like, I can outact all these people. I will kill this role. I will be so good in this role. You, you guys have never seen anybody act like I act. And then as soon as they finally relented and they were like, cool, um, you know, you can do the movie. They, by the way, the deal they ended up doing was a million dollars of production budget, which was very little at the time. Like the big movie of the time, King Kong was like 25 million.

• 25:56Sam Parr?

  Rocky one only had a million dollars.

• 25:59Shaan Puri?

  Budget, he produced the whole thing for 960,000. And he like casted his brothers and his uncles and like, you know, they did one take on everything. And like, if they couldn't get something, like there's a scene where they're, they're supposed to be ice skating on a date. But, uh, Rocky, he didn't, Sylvester Stallone didn't know how to ice skate. Like, you don't have time to learn. Uh, so they, they just changed the scene where he's walking and she's ice skating. And they like made it, they just changed the script to why that would make sense.

• 26:21Sam Parr?

  And they just brought cameras to an ice rink and stuff like that, probably.

• 26:24Shaan Puri?

  Like to get his dog back, he cast that guy in the movie, plus gave him money. It was like, are you gonna be in the movie? So the guy's in the movie for like one line. So anyways, he's making this movie for, for less than a million bucks. Uh, they go, well, now you've made a lot of money, right? And he goes, he's laughing. He goes, I'm about $400 more than I had before this. They go $400? He goes, I mean, Iowa had a lot of bills before this and that landlady cast in that shadow, she showed up for the rent and then taxes and then all this. He goes, he goes, but you know what? He goes, he goes, I basically paid myself the stage actors guild minimum, the SAG minimum. So he made $600 a week doing the movie. And I think he owned like some percentage, but it was going to be on the back end. So he didn't have the money yet. And so he goes,

• 27:08Shaan Puri?

  he goes, but you know what? The money never mattered. He goes, I would have done this whole thing for a donut and a tuna fish sandwich. The money meant nothing. It was always about the opportunity. I had to prove to myself that I wasn't a liar, that I wasn't living a life of disillusionment, because that's very difficult. Because I thought of myself as a creative person, and I told myself that I was a great actor, but I had never had an opportunity to go find, figure out, am I any good or not? And so when you asked me, should I take the money? Or should I take the opportunity to find out, am I living the life of a liar or not? I had to get that answer, because if not, it would have eaten at me for the rest of my life. He goes, I'm, I think of myself as a creative person. I didn't want to wake up and be 50 years old and realize that I'm this creative person who's never done anything creative. That would be terrible. I'd be living a lie. It would kill me.

• 27:54Sam Parr?

  Dude, is, is he our new kind of crush?

• 27:57Shaan Puri?

  Move over, Brett Adcock.

• 27:59Sam Parr?

  Yeah. Sylvester Stallone's my guy now. And he looks great still. He's still young.

• 28:07Shaan Puri?

  Dude, these interviews are so good. Like, I'm gonna make a separate YouTube video just as like an homage to Sly, because he's got so much swag, which I didn't realize. He's very funny. And by the way, this is another thing I love about the guy. He not only did all this stuff, but he kind of overcame the adversity, right? So the reason he wasn't getting cast is because he talks funny. Well, why does he talk funny? Do you know the story?

• 28:29Sam Parr?

  Didn't, when he was born, or no, didn't he, he hit his face or he was born with like no nerves on one side of his face, right?

• 28:35Shaan Puri?

  When he was born, they used forceps to get him out. And forceps damaged the nerve, and it's the nerve in your mouth that when you go for a dental procedure, they numb you. And you know, you're like, your tongue doesn't move right, you can't talk right. Imagine that for your whole life. That was his whole life. And so because he was really jacked and because he talked with kind of a slur and like a sort of mouth, part of his face, part of his mouth is paralyzed. People assumed he was dumb. This guy was incredibly intelligent. He was very well read. He wrote the script for this. He is a very creative, eloquent person. He's a great writer. And people just thought of him as this action hero, like this, like, you know, like an action figure, basically. Oh, you got abs and muscles and that's why you're, why you're doing these roles. But that's not it at all. This guy was a very deep and interesting person, but he was sort of masked by this.

• 29:20Sam Parr?

  Maybe my doctor used forceps and shit because I slur everything and I have abs as well. And I'm kind of smart. You Adrian. You Adrian.

• 29:31Shaan Puri?

  That was pretty good.

• 29:32Sam Parr?

  I think, I think my, my doctor also must use that same tool. Was I born in New Jersey as well?

• 29:39Sam Parr?

  I want to tell you a story about an interesting person I hung out with, but before I get to that, this is kind of the inspiration episode, it seems. And we've talked, you feel inspired, you know, but it's sometimes it's hard to feel inspired when it's 105 degrees and I'm sitting in Austin, Texas, sweating my ass off. What would you do, Sean, if you wanted to feel inspired? Maybe you write a book, maybe get away from it all. What would you do?

• 30:04Shaan Puri?

  I don't, I'm writing a book seems, I'd get away, but where would I go?

• 30:07Sam Parr?

  I think I would wander. Today's sponsor is wander.com. We like wander. So go to wander. Am I even saying that funny, by the way? Do I, am I saying that with a weird accent?

• 30:19Shaan Puri?

  You didn't still own it. You're good.

• 30:20Sam Parr?

  So wander.com, it's a really cool website where they operate really luxurious, high-end properties. They're awesome. If you go to their website, you'll see every photo they take is inspiring. Like all these beautiful beaches, like a cabin in the mountains. It's just like high-end stuff and they've got gyms and work from home.

• 30:38Shaan Puri?

  Sometimes I don't even take the trip. I just go to wander.com, just look at places and I get like 10% of what it would feel like to go on vacation right now. And it's like, okay, well, that just took me 10 minutes. That was great.

• 30:46Sam Parr?

  Yeah. My wife wanted to go to Greece and I was like, hey, let's just look at Google Earth and look at the parking lot. Like, pretty dope, right?

• 30:53Shaan Puri?

  Did that do it for you?

• 30:54Sam Parr?

  Yeah, that's what I do with Wander.com. So check it out. They're today's sponsor. They're an awesome company. I want to tell you a quick story about what I did the other day. So I get this text, this guy, Michael, just joined Hampton and I become, became friendly with him. And he's like, hey, are you free on Tuesday at six o'clock? I was like, yeah, sure. What's up? He goes, do you want to go fishing? I was like, yeah, okay, whatever. I like, I'm currently right outside of New York City. So I'm like, where do we get like, do we fish? Like, is it gonna be like sewage water? Where do you fish? I don't know. So I go to this guy's house and I get to know him. And so I sent you his house. I sent you a link to his house. So you'll have to look at it. Don't say the address or anything, but I pull up to this house. It looks like I'm at like a high school or an art museum.

• 31:38Sam Parr?

  He's got this massive, beautiful home that's built like on a peninsula. And the boat to get into the Long Island Sound, which is like a body of water around here. He, it's like right on his front porch. And we're basically 30 minutes outside of New York City. You see the photos of that house?

• 31:54Shaan Puri?

  This is, this is incredible.

• 31:56Sam Parr?

  It's an incredible.

• 31:57Shaan Puri?

  More than 30 rooms.

• 31:58Sam Parr?

  More than, it was one of the most spectacular things that I've ever heard of. And so we go out fishing and I get to know him a little bit. And I had to tell you about this guy. So he's really fascinating because he's one of those guys who you would know his products, but you may not have ever heard of him. So have you ever heard of Fog Creek Software? They launched in 2010. I was like, so Fog Creek Software launched in 2000. And it was sort of like an agency where the internet was just getting started. And these guys were like the early nerds amongst the nerds. So if you wanted like some development work, they were the guys. Their mission early on was like, you know, we want to work with programmers. And we want to create a great place to work for programmers. And they start this little agency or consultancy. But like a lot of consultants, they're like, just doing service work kind of sucks. Let's create some products.

• 32:42Sam Parr?

  And so they create a handful of products. The first one being Fog Bugs. So Fog Bugs was like a bug tracking software. And after 10 years, it does all right. It's like, you know, in the eight figures, so 10 million plus in revenue. It's doing pretty good, but it's kind of stagnates a little bit. And they go, let's like spin off some more stuff that we've been working on. So I believe, I don't remember which order it was, but let's just say the first one was Trello. So they spin off Trello and they fund it with a little bit of money. So Trello, it's an Asana competitor. It's a task management software. They grow this business. They raised only $10 million. It gets started and they grow it a little bit, then they raise $10 million.

• 33:23Sam Parr?

  They grow this business and they eventually sell it to Atlassian Software for $450 million, I believe. And if you look at Atlassian Software's stock, I think when they sold, the stock was $17. And when it eventually peaked, like last year, two years ago, when everything, when everyone went crazy, it was like 20x that. And so they got a combination of stock and cash for this deal. So huge hit. This guy just made it. Well, it turns out they spun off another company as well. And that other company was called Stack Overflow. So Stack Overflow was basically like, it still exists. It's kind of like a message board, but originally for developers. And eventually you can make one of these message boards for a variety of topics. It's huge. Did you know that that company sold?

• 34:06Sam Parr?

  This wasn't in the news too often, but did you know that company sold for $1.8 billion?

• 34:12Shaan Puri?

  Who bought it?

• 34:13Sam Parr?

  A European publishing company.

• 34:19Sam Parr?

  Process, process, I don't know. Do you have it up?

• 34:22Shaan Puri?

  No, I don't have it here, but that's okay.

• 34:24Sam Parr?

  Just some huge.

• 34:24Shaan Puri?

  Same traffic, by the way. They get almost like 200 million monthly visitors.

• 34:27Sam Parr?

  A huge site. And so I was talking to this guy and he was like, yeah, then we also sold, sold Fog Creek Software. And I made a little money there. So he's like, I've had a hat trick. And so this guy has done all these amazing things. And so just like learning about his story, how he's pretty low key in the sense that like, he doesn't have Twitter. He doesn't really use social media. And he's like, giving me all this like interesting intel on growing their companies and making them huge. It's called Process, according to Ari. And he's like, yeah, I sold that one. We sold that one for 1.8. We sold this one for, you know, 400 and something, but the stock like appreciated a ton. So who knows what the actual price was? And I was like, what are you doing now? And he's like, just fishing, just thinking. And so he goes fishing on this boat like every day during work hours. And he's like showing me a tour of his home.

• 35:12Sam Parr?

  And he's like, yeah, this is where my office was, but I don't really open up a laptop anymore.

• 35:15Shaan Puri?

  Did you know this guy or why is he inviting you fishing?

• 35:18Sam Parr?

  I met him in Hampton and we just started talking and he just was like, do you want to, do you want to come over? And I guess this is, look, when you're

• 35:24Shaan Puri?

  He's like, you look like a guy who likes to fish, like spotted.

• 35:28Sam Parr?

  I thought, here's why this guy was cool to me. He's like an outdoorsman in basically New York City. And he's like, living a very unique life. And he just, but he's very zen-like. He's super zen and he was telling me stories about how he like overcame certain things at the company. The whole time, he's like telling you stories. He sounds very zen and calm and low-key. And I thought that this, this guy was one of these people who deserves a little bit of love because super under the radar, as successful as anyone we've talked on this podcast, but does not have a big mouth. So I'm kind of blowing up his spot a little bit, but I asked him if it was all right that I said all this. And super interesting guy that you should look into. Michael Pryor is his name. He's awesome.

• 36:08Shaan Puri?

  What was, anything cool from your conversation? Anything you, you learned or an insight or an observation you had that made you think?

• 36:15Sam Parr?

  Yeah. So he was, I just liked how low-key he was about everything. So he was basically the CFO of Stack Overflow. Stack Overflow, I don't know what their revenue was, but they sold for $2 billion. And I was like, did you, are you like an accountant? Did you, were you a CFO? He's like, no, I barely knew how to do any of this stuff. But the company needed a CFO when we started. He's like, I was a programmer. He's like, I haven't programmed in forever, but I just kind of learned like how to pay taxes. And I just had to learn how to pay taxes and I had to learn how to do payroll. And he just like rolled with the punches. And I think that, I was like, were you intense? He's like, no, I'm not intense at all. And we hear stories about how people are doing, what is Elon Musk say? Hardcore, hardcore mode or hardcore?

• 36:59Sam Parr?

  And this guy, he was like, I'm not, I wasn't really hardcore. He's like, we are smart and we worked pretty hard. But like, I would not describe what we did as intense and we just kind of rolled with the punches. It was really cool to hear something that differs from the loudest people who are incredibly successful of being intense. You got to grind. You got to do this. That wasn't the vibe that I got from Michael and like the early founding of these companies. And I thought it was really inspiring. I thought it was awesome. I also think, and this is for anyone who wants to build a company, you have to look up his partner. His partner's the louder one. His partner's called, uh, is named Joel. And he's got this amazing blog that I've read for years. It's basically like Paul Graham, but more, a little bit, uh, a little bit more hot headed. A little, yeah, well, it is, it's very tactical, but he also writes like, he, he is a little bit more jokey.

• 37:43Sam Parr?

  And it's a little bit more brash, which I appreciate is, and it's called Joel on software. I think it's one of the best entrepreneur blogs out there. I don't even think he updates it anymore, but he has probably a thousand articles. And so it was awesome, just like hearing little bits of like intel from these guys. And so I wanted to, uh, shine a light on this guy. It was really fascinating.

• 38:01Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, that's amazing. Uh, that's cool. How's your fishing game?

• 38:06Sam Parr?

  Dude, it was like on easy mode, like the poles were like attached to the boat. And it was like, once you, once you hear like a bell ring, you just go and grab like, you like grab the thing and just like barely crank it in.

• 38:17Shaan Puri?

  The DoorDash of fishing.

• 38:19Sam Parr?

  Yeah, like his boat like told me where the fish was. Like it gives you like a little alert. So I was like, fish here. And you just like sit there. I'm just like sitting drinking water and it's like, oh, we got a fish, I guess. And so, oh, uh, did you see the picture of it? It was three foot long. This fucking fish.

• 38:36Shaan Puri?

  I saw that thing and I was like, how the hell did you catch this? What is going on? That was like a record catch. That was like a record setting fish.

• 38:43Sam Parr?

  It was just like the fishing rod was just like in one of the holes on the boat. And you just like barely touched the reel and it came up. I mean, it really, there was really no glory in it.

• 38:51Shaan Puri?

  It's like AI for fishing. It's like, wait a minute.

• 38:54Sam Parr?

  Yeah, like, like the boat, these, I don't know anything about boats. A lot of people look at me and they think that I'm like an outdoorsman. I don't know shit about this stuff. And like, it like has these sensors that tell you where the fucking fish are. Like there was no work involved. So like this fishing shit's easy. I don't know why people are impressed by this.

• 39:13Shaan Puri?

  Let me ask you one more question. I'm always interested in what other people, what other interesting people are interested in. What was this guy interested in when he was talking to you? What kind of questions did he ask you?

• 39:25Sam Parr?

  We talked about being popular. So basically, like, a lot of people who are-

• 39:30Shaan Puri?

  Why'd he ask you?

• 39:32Sam Parr?

  Good question. I think I was like, uh, the tallest midget here. Like, I was just, I was like, the only one that he could like, uh, talk to whoever who has even a slight popularity. We were talking, so I found it odd that, and I don't think he actually envied me at all, nor does he want this type of thing. But a lot of like, rich and successful people who are low-key are curious what it's like to have an audience. And what I tell them all the time, and I don't know if you feel this way, I go, hey, I will trade you my audience for your net worth-

• 40:03Shaan Puri?

  Your base account.

• 40:04Sam Parr?

  Any, any day of the week. I'll gladly make that trade. And of course, none of them would ever actually want to do that. But I think it's funny, and, and I'm, I'm not talking about him, but people in general, uh, that they're into what it's like to have like, an audience and be internet popular or something like that. And I always remind them, I'm like, it's really just like, me in my bedroom, just, or on my toilet, just typing out stupid tweets. And like, there's like, not that much joy in it. And I would, I would much rather have a $2 billion company. And so, don't get like, don't actually envy this or think that it's awesome. And so, a lot of these people are curious what it's like to be like, a, a popular internet person.

• 40:42Shaan Puri?

  Let me ask you a question, hypothetical. How much would somebody have to pay you to never create content again? Delete everything on this podcast, delete your blog, and never, you never get to publish again. No Twitter, no social media, no nothing. How much would you have to get paid?

• 40:56Sam Parr?

  $30 million. What about you?

• 41:00Shaan Puri?

  A really specific number. Very quick and specific number.

• 41:04Sam Parr?

  Well, I had to think about it. I had to think about what it's worth.

• 41:07Shaan Puri?

  For half a second.

• 41:08Sam Parr?

  Well, I had to think about what, you know, what it's worth. What would you, what would your number be?

• 41:13Shaan Puri?

  I think a hundred.

• 41:14Sam Parr?

  No.

• 41:14Shaan Puri?

  I think even more than a hundred. I think it would have to be like, yeah, I think it would have to be more than a hundred.

• 41:17Sam Parr?

  That is so, dude. You are not Sylvester Stallone. You are not, why? You are not Sylvester Stallone. You, you, you don't have, the landlord's not here. Like, you've tasted the nice life. You want more of it. You would do it for much less.

• 41:31Shaan Puri?

  No, no, I really wouldn't.

• 41:34Sam Parr?

  So your official number is 250?

• 41:37Shaan Puri?

  250.

• 41:38Sam Parr?

  That's insane to me. I do not believe, dude, that's like, you'd be, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think you're, I think you are full of shit. I think you're absolutely full of shit.

• 41:46Shaan Puri?

  Did you just take power of attorney and change my decision for me?

• 41:50Sam Parr?

  I just don't.

• 41:52Shaan Puri?

  Like, sorry, my friend's an idiot. I'm gonna change that number.

• 41:54Sam Parr?

  Why? Why, why, why?

• 41:56Shaan Puri?

  Because I think I'm gonna end up at a hundred to 200 anyways, doing what I'm doing, and I like doing it. So it's basically, if I think I'm gonna make that anyways, doing this,

• 42:07Shaan Puri?

  and I like doing it, so then you have to pay me a premium on top of, to make me stop doing a thing I like doing. And then there's the additional, like, time value of money that I get it all upfront right now, guaranteed, right? So, so, you know, I'm just kind of factoring that in, and I would just rather err on the side of,

• 42:26Shaan Puri?

  what's a number I would not, I would not regret? Like, what's the number you could pay me that I'd, okay, I'll go figure out some other hobbies?

• 42:32Sam Parr?

  Well, would you still be allowed to do anything anonymously, like, under a pen name?

• 42:36Shaan Puri?

  No, not at all. You, you, your, your hands are taped. You can't, you can't type, can't, can't do any of that stuff.

• 42:42Sam Parr?

  Yeah, maybe it would be higher then. Like, if I could, if I could do something anonymously, I would do that. I think that, um, I think the anonymous thing is actually pretty cool.

• 42:51Shaan Puri?

  It might be better anyways.

• 42:53Sam Parr?

  I think it's better anyway. I think the anonymous thing is cool. I'm, I'm really fascinated by these authors who use pen names. So we had, uh, Jack Carr on the podcast. That's a pen name. But it, like, he's still like-

• 43:04Shaan Puri?

  But was it a pen name because it's a stage name, or is it a pen name because he wants to be anonymous in real life?

• 43:09Sam Parr?

  I imagine the second one, of course, he's not anonymous, because, like, we see his face, but, yeah.

• 43:14Shaan Puri?

  I think it's just a stage name, uh, which is different.

• 43:17Sam Parr?

  I don't know what you call it. Yeah, I don't know, but I just know that's not his.

• 43:20Shaan Puri?

  Jack Carr just sounds cooler. You know, I remember I was in a movie once.

• 43:24Sam Parr?

  Dude, my name rhymes with that. Why does his name sound so much cooler? It's the C.

• 43:28Shaan Puri?

  It's the K sound, right? K is the coolest letter. Everybody knows that.

• 43:33Shaan Puri?

  I was in a movie once and the main actor was Kal Penn. And I was like, oh, man, Kal Penn, what a guy. Kal Penn, what a name. Sounds like a hero. Sounds like a Hollywood star. Kal Penn.

• 43:42Sam Parr?

  Dude, that guy's not.

• 43:43Shaan Puri?

  Do you know what his real name is?

• 43:45Sam Parr?

  He is, he's Indian, right?

• 43:46Shaan Puri?

  Culpan Suresh Modi. That's his real name. He couldn't get auditions and so they changed, instead of his first name being Culpan, they changed it to Kal Penn. And then all of a sudden, he started getting auditions. And he was telling me this, like, he was like embarrassed, not embarrassed by it, but he was like, it's effed up, but this is what we had to do. He's like, I didn't want to change my name. I just wanted to act. And the price of having to act was to change my name. And this is super common, like Mindy Kaling. Her name is not actually Mindy Kaling. Like a bunch of Asian actors, same thing. Like they all change, they all change their name to sound cooler and more, you know, whatever. In fact, Leonardo DiCaprio, they tried to get him to change his last name. They wanted him to be like Lenny Williams,

• 44:28Shaan Puri?

  was what they wanted his name to be. And he refused. And so we were almost robbed of Leonardo DiCaprio. He was about to be fucking Lenny Williams, if you had listened to the, to the suits.

• 44:38Sam Parr?

  Lenny Williams would have been so much worse for him because Lenny Williams sounds like a 50 year old who dates a 19 year old.

• 44:44Shaan Puri?

  Leonardo DiCaprio is a 50 year old.

• 44:50Sam Parr?

  At least there's some suave or whatever.

• 44:55Sam Parr?

  For some reason.

• 44:56Shaan Puri?

  Is that illegal? No, he's kind of Italian, I think. So it's okay.

• 45:01Shaan Puri?

  Last name is different, so I guess we're disrespectful if we question it.

• 45:07Sam Parr?

  Lenny Williams sounds like a 50 year old guy who watches softball on TV. You know what I mean?

• 45:14Sam Parr?

  He did the right thing. Leonardo DiCaprio, he pulled it off. Good job for him. Do we end here on this rambling, wandering podcast?

• 45:24Shaan Puri?

  I think so. I think that's it.

• 45:26Sam Parr?

  All right. That's the pod.