61: Confronting People Who've Been Talking Behind Your Back. How to Deal with Anger Management Issues. Be Careful With Praise.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:01:35 - How to Deal With Anger Management Issues. 0:10:35 - Is it possible to exhibit too much Extreme Ownership? 0:17:57 - Jocko Spars Jiu Jitsu with Rickson Gracie 0:39:02 - In a NEW Leadership role, When to use Firmness right away VS. When NOT to. 0:45:10 - How Praise can hurt performance VS How it can help performance. 0:53:42 - How to Detach without Seeming Completely Cold. 0:59:36 - Discipline in one Area does NOT Make up for Slack in Other Areas 1:07:51 - How to Confront someone who has been talking behind your back. 1:11:43 - Support: Cool Onnit http://www.onnit.com/jocko, Amazon https://www.amazon.com/?&tag=jocko20-20&camp=216797&creative=498533&linkCode=ur1&adid=1DKYGWXQBV0KNEZ3MZZX&, JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, with Jocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx and The Muster002 http://www.extremeownership.com 1:49:35 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 61 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  So it's been a few episodes since we got into the Q and A.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 0:18Jocko Willink?

  So today, we're going to go right into questions that come, they actually come from the interwebs.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 0:25Jocko Willink?

  People out there. So everyone that gives questions, appreciate it. Thank you for the questions. I can't answer them all, but talking to some people out there.

• 0:37Jocko Willink?

  If you listen to the different questions, you can figure out your own answers to a lot of them.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:43Jocko Willink?

  You like learn the formulas and then you can apply, but thanks for the questions. Appreciate it.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Sometimes when you, in my experience anyway, when I think, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask Jocko this question. And then you either write it out, or even when I remember the other day when I, when I busted out questions. And when I say them out loud, it was like a few weeks ago, and I say it out loud. When I'm, as I'm saying it to you, I'm like, oh, I know the answer already. Cause you think, you know.

• 1:13Jocko Willink?

  You realize.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  So you can kind of utilize that whole.

• 1:16Jocko Willink?

  So you've started to get the formulas in your own head.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19Jocko Willink?

  And now as you're saying to me, saying, oh, I know what the answer is.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:24Jocko Willink?

  How do I get out of bed in the morning? Get out of bed.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  How do I be mentally tougher? Be mentally tougher.

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  All right, rock and roll. First question, go.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Jocko, hi Jocko. Today I had what I believe you refer to as disciplinary breakdown. This morning I found out that I had to take additional credits in college. That I believe were completed. So he thought they were complete. He had to take more, as it turns out. In a fit of rage, I took my phone and threw it across the room in frustration. I felt really good at the time, but five seconds later I regret it because now, broken phone.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  And I lost control of my emotions. So do you have any mental tricks or anything in general that you do when you're slightly irritated or outright furious? P.S. This used to happen a lot more. I started jujitsu and haven't rolled for three weeks. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I felt great whenever I was rolling consistently. Maybe.

• 2:25Jocko Willink?

  Anecdotal, however, we do know that jujitsu soothes the soul. So, well, one of the things in me, and you've talked about this too. When I realized that losing your temper was a sign of weakness, as soon as I made that connection, I said to myself, this is weak. I'm gonna try not to do it anymore. And what's weird is when you're a kid, I don't know if you remember this, but when I was a kid, and you'd see someone get angry and it made you afraid. And so for a while, I saw it as like a power. You know, it's kind of a way to achieve power that you can lose your temper and then all of a sudden

• 3:10Jocko Willink?

  you have this extra strength. And so when you're a little kid, and when I say a little kid, I mean, when I was 13, 14 years old, I thought, hey, if I go, if I could get that rage going and people are scared like I used to feel, that's a positive thing.

• 3:26Jocko Willink?

  And then, like I said, as I got older, now you know, now you're talking 16, 15, 16, 17, I realized, hey, this isn't, this isn't cool. This isn't strength. It's actually weakness. And when I realized it was weakness, and I didn't realize that overnight, but I started getting the idea that that was weakness. And now,

• 3:50Jocko Willink?

  when you see someone that is in control, and even when bad things are happening, they're, you know, they're standing stoically saying, okay, let me take another look at that and I'll get it done. You know what I mean? When they're just, okay, then you realize, okay, this guy is really unflappable, which is a lot more impressive. So. Again, you gotta be able to detach from this and you know, I like to take pride in the fact that I'm gonna keep my cool no matter what happens. And definitely, once I was in the, once you're in the SEAL teams, you definitely wanna be that guy that's keeping your, keeping you cool no matter what's happening. Whether it's people are doing the wrong thing, or you just wanna be the guy that's, hey, okay, come back over here, we need to redo this. You just wanna be that guy. That's way more impressive than the guy that says, I can't believe this. Don't be

• 4:34Jocko Willink?

  that person. So, and I've talked about this before, what are the pre-event indicators that show you or reveal to you that your temper is about to be lost? What are they? Is it you clench your fists, right? Is it you raise your voice and you start doing, doing that stuff? Do you start to heavy breathing? Do you flare your nostrils, right? Cause that's an animal thing where you're gonna take in more oxygen, so you open up the nostrils, cause you're about to get after it. Do you, you know, is your, does your, your head, you know, shaking or whatever? Just like these things. What is it? What indicators do you have when you know that you're starting

• 5:15Jocko Willink?

  to feel that? And as soon as you feel that, you detach. You go, oh, that's what that is. That's an indicator. And it's a weakness. And I don't like weakness. So I'm not gonna allow it. And then, you know, take a breath. I like to, I say, you know what? Here's a good one. You wanna, you want to get through that, that moment? Nod your head slowly in the affirmative. Right? So, so when someone's telling me something that's making me mad, I'll just slowly nod my head,

• 5:53Jocko Willink?

  like, I understand. This is the way things are. I accept this. And this is, I'm calculating what my next move is gonna be. And then, you know, you see, whatever, you know, guys will count to 10. You know, you tell your little kids that. Tell your little kids, when they start losing their temper, you know, you need to count to 10. Count to 10. Count to 100. Count to 1,000, whatever that you gotta do. And get control. Because, like I said, if you're losing control, it's not strength, it's weakness.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was, um, I said this before, where I read this book called Mind Games, small little book.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Talked about anger management, like if people have anger issues.

• 6:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you realized it was low or they said it was low self esteem.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  They say, yeah, anger issues stem from low self esteem and that was really embarrassing. You know, I didn't have anger issues, but I'm saying if someone ever told me like, oh, you have low self esteem or something like that, that would be pretty embarrassing. I always thought. And so to me, I took that as an extreme, being so sensitive to the even the expression low self esteem. That was like, oh, I can never get angry again. It says right there, everyone gets angry, you know? So that was always on my mind. Anytime I started to feel mad, I was like, okay, I feel mad right now, but I don't want to have low self esteem. So I better act right, you know, kind of thing. And then after a while, it just became habitual. But the, you know, I say like, there's a difference between how you feel and how you behave.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Like you fit, you have feelings, you know, but then.

• 7:28Jocko Willink?

  Well, negative.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  So you know, you're mad, you have these mad feelings. So what are you going to go and straight up behave mad? You know?

• 7:38Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Then, yeah, and a lot of people do it and a lot of people actually behave mad and justify it because that's my true feelings. But again, they're two different things, man.

• 7:49Jocko Willink?

  Don't, don't act on your true feelings in front of everybody.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Most of the time, that's not really that good.

• 7:56Jocko Willink?

  No, not good, not good.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, I dig it though. Like, you know, cause you know that feeling.

• 8:02Jocko Willink?

  Because if you act on your true feelings, by the way, the reason I'm saying that is if you act on your true feelings all the time, you won't get the long term place where you want to be.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Bro, yes.

• 8:11Jocko Willink?

  True feelings do not lead you to your true destination.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:15Jocko Willink?

  Right? They don't.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, yeah.

• 8:16Jocko Willink?

  So don't.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Especially when you're mad.

• 8:19Jocko Willink?

  Keep your true feelings focused on the true destination that you want to be at. And the true feelings that you have of the anger and frustration and wanting to yell at somebody and all that other stupid stuff.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:27Jocko Willink?

  You know what you end up with? A broken iPhone because you hucked it at the wall. That's what you end up with.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Bro, how's this? Storytime. I'll make it quick. So, uh, one of my friends I used to work with a long time ago. Name is Chris. So his driving gets cut off or something, you know? Road rage situation, true feelings, right? True feelings. Oh, that guy, I want to beat him up. I want to, I want to hurt him.

• 8:54Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Road raging.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Yells something or whatever. Maybe the other guy yelled at him first. I don't know how who started what, but they pull over, get into a fight. That's kind in a way at the time that feels like the fantasy right there. Wish I could fight this guy. I hope I the store I'm going to, I hope he's right there so I can fight him. I don't know, whatever. That's a fantasy. That's your feelings. So anyway, Chris gets in a fight with this guy on the side of the road. Grown adult, by the way, fights the guy, tears his peck, tears it.

• 9:23Jocko Willink?

  Chris tears his own peck.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yes, in the fight. I don't know if he won or lost, whatever.

• 9:28Jocko Willink?

  But he lost. I'm gonna go ahead and tell you, he lost. Doesn't matter. Torn peck is a six month injury, the surgery.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, can you work with a torn peck? Well, most of the time, probably not, you know? And all because, you know, the guy cut you off or wasn't going fast enough or was going, you know, too fast, whatever, you know? It's one of those things and that's.

• 9:48Jocko Willink?

  That's what your true feelings get you.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially in the moment, especially when it's anger.

• 9:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's weird. We'll have to explore that at some point because I know it doesn't make sense. I'm not sitting here saying everyone suppress all your feelings.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, all your real feeling, yeah.

• 10:00Jocko Willink?

  But the stupid feelings that you have, suppress those. Let them, let them manifest themselves over time for a long term result. That's going to be what you actually want from life.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Usually the anger.

• 10:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, anger for sure is one of them, but anger, jealousy, ego, all those things. Those are all things that if you just act on them all the time, you're not going to have good times in life. I'm here to tell you.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  And every single feeling, one, you're drunk. Next question.

• 10:32Jocko Willink?

  Those are not good.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't act on those either. Next question. I led a session based on the book Extreme Ownership to my team at work. I'm not the leader, but everyone, including our manager, was very supportive and enjoyed the session. The challenge from a team member was, is there such thing as taking too much ownership? Won't you start feeling guilty about not succeeding completely? This guilt would not be a good thing. Thoughts on handling this?

• 11:02Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's definitely a thing of you can definitely take too much ownership, but that not for that reason. I've talked about this before. If you if you're taking too if you and I are on a team and I'm the leader and we've got a mission and I take so much ownership that I say, okay, Echo, this is how we're going to do everything. You're going to listen to me. I own this and I don't give you any ownership. Now it's not your plan. And so now you don't execute it the best way and you don't buy into it and all that stuff. So that is how you take too much ownership takes away the if you take too much ownership as a leader, you take away ownership from your subordinates. And so you've taken and again, it's that's overt ownership. If I take overt ownership. Now, if I give you the mission and you go out and execute it and you mess it up, and I say, okay, Echo, I didn't give you enough guidance. I didn't give you the support and give

• 11:45Jocko Willink?

  you the training. I'm going to own the mistakes. I'm going to own the failure overtly. But covertly, if I'm giving you the mission, I'm going to say, hey, you take it and run with it. So that's where you need to be careful that but guilt for failing is not a valid cause not to take ownership, right? Guess what? When you fail something, yeah, you're gonna feel guilty, but it's a different kind. It's more of a disappointment because things didn't go your way. And I'll tell you when you feel guilty, when you feel guilty to me is if I know I haven't done my best. I know I cut corners. I know I didn't invest the time. I know I, you know, didn't give it

• 12:29Jocko Willink?

  everything I could as a leader. That's when I feel guilty. If I give it everything and I've done everything I can and I look back and of course, hindsight, there's going to be things that you didn't predict, right? Hindsight's 2020. We all know that. There's going to be things where you look back and you say, I wish I would have made a different decision. But you have to you have to say, okay, so what are you going to do in the future? Being decisive now? Are you not going to make decisions? Even at that moment, when I made the decision which which was wrong, now that we can see hindsight? Well, what were you gonna do? You're gonna wait and sit around and do nothing? And now we get attacked? We get maneuvered on? We get the competitor moves or the enemy moves on us? So you might feel disappointed that you made the wrong decision.

• 13:08Jocko Willink?

  You might feel that type of guilt, but well, the real guilt for me is if I I didn't give everything I could to the situation. So that's what causes guilt to me. Now, the failure.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  An actual failure, it shouldn't cause that level of guilt. It should cause you to dig deep and figure out what happened and want to reattack it. That's what it should do. It should cause you to want to figure out where you failed, where your team failed, and what you can do to ensure that never happens again. If you want to call that guilt, you can call it guilt, but that is not a reason not to take ownership. You know, I might call it disappointment. I tell you what I'll call it. I'll call it motivation. You know, and you know, I don't throw that word around easily, but if I fail at something, I'm going to be motivated to make sure I I get it back back in line and get that thing squared away. So, take ownership. If, you know, take ownership, get

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  things done right. And if you fail, don't feel guilty. Don't get guilty. Get aggressive. Find the problems and get them solved. That's it. Reattack.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Makes sense. Yeah. So the guilt is what kind of like, dang, it's all my fault. Like, no, you know, taking ownership for sure. But it's like, dang, it's all my fault. This failure. Look at everyone's. I don't know. A guy lost his commission or I don't know. Right? Right? Dang, that kind of guilt. Dang.

• 14:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And you know, I say this with the businesses, they're, you know, like you just said, you make someone lose their commission because you couldn't get the deal done fast enough. You couldn't give the guy the support that they needed. Now they lose commission. You can sure, you can feel guilty about that. Is that a reason not to take ownership of it? Absolutely not. It's a reason to take more ownership of it and be like, okay, buddy. Echo, I know you lost commission on that. Here's what I think I let you down. Here's we need to communicate better. Here's what I need to prepare and be ready to support you next time. So this doesn't happen again. Are you with me? Right? As opposed to saying, not taking ownership and saying, yeah, well, you know, Echo, that was kind of, you know, those deals don't always work out. Maybe you should prepare

• 15:19Jocko Willink?

  better. Does that make me feel good as a leader? No. It makes me feel like a idiot.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  It's kind of like the swamps of sadness. So

• 15:29Jocko Willink?

  The swamps of sadness.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  The swamps of sadness is like

• 15:32Jocko Willink?

  Fill me in.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  When you get

• 15:33Jocko Willink?

  Don't want to visit them.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  It's from, it's from the never ending story. When it's basically you go through these swamps and it's super hard. No, but it makes sense. It's a metaphor for life.

• 15:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So this is a movie?

• 15:46Speaker 01

  It's a movie.

• 15:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  It's a classic.

• 15:48Jocko Willink?

  Never ending story?

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, the never ending story. Anyway, the swamps of sadness, they're hard to walk through them. It's like, it's hard. It's a swamp. Quick sand everywhere. Quick swamp, whatever, you know, it's not actually sand, but so you sink. And the more you sink, the sadder you get, the sadder you get, the more you sink. So you gotta like, you know how you say, oh, like if someone's feeling guilty in this case, or if you get sad, a lot of times you get sad and you're like, oh, I'm such a sad.

• 16:12Jocko Willink?

  It's the downward spiral.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  The downward spiral. Exactly. So you gotta fight this. You gotta fight the swamps of sadness and get aggressive and work. It's, it's not easy. Totally not easy. That's what the why it's a swamp.

• 16:22Jocko Willink?

  How do they cover the fact that if you're in the swamp and you're sinking, if you panic, you'll also sink more?

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:28Jocko Willink?

  Cause you're getting aggressive, cause getting aggressive might just be like thrashing around. Now you're running out of breath as you're sinking.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:34Jocko Willink?

  Do they cover that?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  No, they, they don't cover that.

• 16:35Jocko Willink?

  Missed that on the metaphor, did they now? Need to rethink the swamps of sadness.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  No, no, well, I don't think that that was.

• 16:45Jocko Willink?

  Cause that happens for real in the water. You know, when you're in the water and something starts going wrong.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:50Jocko Willink?

  If you get panicky, your breath is going faster, your oxygen's going quicker, you're gonna die.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:56Jocko Willink?

  You have to relax. You have to learn to relax. You got to relax.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:00Jocko Willink?

  And just.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Switch into problem solving mode.

• 17:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Really?

• 17:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Don't let the swamp.

• 17:08Jocko Willink?

  But it is true that you can go in the downward spiral and you know, we see that in people's lives, right? People's lives, they, they, they mess, they lose their job. And instead of going, cool, opportunity, and somebody just hit me up on social media the other day. It's like, lost my job. Good. I got an opportunity to go out, find another job. I'm gonna step up. Like, that's what you do.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:30Jocko Willink?

  And as opposed to, lost my job. Oh no, what am I gonna do? And now you start going down the downward spiral, cause now you can't pay your rent. Next thing you know, you're losing your, your apartment.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:40Jocko Willink?

  And now you, now you can't pay your car payment either. And now you're losing your car. So what do we do? How does that help? Doesn't help.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Don't help.

• 17:48Jocko Willink?

  Don't panic, get aggressive, figure out what you're gonna do next. Take advantage of the situation.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Good. Next question.

• 17:58Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Can you talk about the experience of rolling with Hickson?

• 18:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  How impressed were you?

• 18:07Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I answered this on Twitter. Someone said, how impressed were you? I responded, all caps, impressed.

• 18:17Jocko Willink?

  So Jiu Jitsu, I, I was, this is back in, this is, well, it's back in the day. So it's back in the day and I was at team one at the time. And, and so I think we're talking 95, 96, maybe. Maybe even, yeah, 95, 96, maybe 97. I think it was 97. And I was, yeah, it was 97 because I was working in the training department and I was into Jiu Jitsu, but I was, I was a blue belch. And I wanted to go and train with Hickson, right? Cause if you don't know anything about Hickson, for those people that aren't Jiu Jitsu players, Hickson is the, he, he, he's considered to be the best ever.

• 19:02Jocko Willink?

  At Jiu Jitsu. And above, be above and beyond just being the best ever. Hickson Gracie, being considered the best ever at the sport. He has a high level of mystique about him.

• 19:22Jocko Willink?

  And

• 19:24Jocko Willink?

  you know, there's a bunch of reasons for that mystique and there's a great story and you know, where I don't, you know, the story when the, the guy from Japan challenged him?

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So guy from Japan, he beat one guy in Japan and his teammate said, I will fight you at any time. The guy came to Hickson's academy and challenged him to a fight. And Hickson wasn't there at the time. They called Hickson and said, hey, this guy from Japan is here to challenge your honor. Hickson's like, oh, I'll be there in 15 minutes. So Hickson came down. They wanted to record it and he said, no, you can't, you, he goes, I will record it. I will own the video. And, and we will fight now. And Hickson annihilated him. And that's one of the mystique stories. And actually, the guy came back a little while later and brought him a Shogun helmet and a Samurai sword or something like that.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  I think there was some drama before that, though. I think the guy went back and was like, yeah, him and like a bunch of people beat me or a bunch of people beat me up.

• 20:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  And they reported it and then somehow, I forget the details, but somehow he was persuaded to just tell the truth.

• 20:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, they had a video of it. Hickson, Hickson actually had it in that video exists.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the guy told the truth and then it was, it was cool.

• 20:36Jocko Willink?

  And the other thing that's crazy, well, the other thing that adds to the mystique of Hickson is that everybody that rolls with him, every multiple time, you know, five times, six times, seven time world champion jujitsu person rolls with him and they say, I was helpless. The, the guys that are winning, dominating the world championships are saying, you know, he, I was helpless and he's above and beyond anybody else that I've ever rolled with. So, and, and you know, Hickson's now probably 50 something and he's not like rolling with the, the competitive black belts anymore. Uh, but this is, you know, five years, no, maybe 10 years ago, he was, he was doing that and he wouldn't compete, but the guys

• 21:21Jocko Willink?

  would come to train with him and he'd destroy him. And there's some great stories online that a bunch of really good black belts have said, I mean, really good black belts have said, you know, I was rolling with Hickson and he just annihilated me. So this is for me, you know, I was a blue belt, but I was a pretty good blue belt, you know, back in the day, for back in the day. And this is the beautiful thing, you know, I was at, I was at SEAL Team One. And so there's something in the military, you can get no cost orders, meaning, hey, you don't have to take leave, but we'll give you orders to go somewhere and we're not going to pay for it. Cause you know, we don't, we're not going to waste government money or spend government money on what you want to do, but we'll let you go do it. So I got no cost orders. Basically SEAL Team One said, hey, you can go up and

• 22:02Jocko Willink?

  train. And so I did that. This is at the old Pico Street Academy. And it was, the Pico Street Academy was kind of a, um, a, um, it was like a dance studio or something where they would lay down mats. And I went up there, I think, I think I ended up staying up there for nine days. I stayed at some crappy hotel around the corner and.

• 22:28Jocko Willink?

  When I got there, Hickson wasn't teaching. So I go there and I, you know, hey, I want to train and the guy that was there, Lemon, who's, uh, you know, that is right?

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. We said, was it Harris, Heras? What's his last name?

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Oh, and I just know him as Lemon.

• 22:44Jocko Willink?

  It's Lemon, right? So awesome jujitsu guy, awesome black belt, you know, Hickson Gracie black belt. And so he's teaching and he's, you know, and I was coming from Fabio Santos, who's another Hickson black belt. And, you know, my, my original instructor in jujitsu where, you know, he made all kinds of incredible jujitsu guys Fabio did, you know, you got just all kinds, Greg Train, Dean, Higgs, James, Craig Cole, I mean, all kinds of really good, high level guys coming out of Fabio. And then there's a whole, there's like another generation of black belts that came out of Fabio too, who are all awesome guy, Tino, and just a bunch of really good guy, Eric. Um, anyways, Lemon was another Hickson black belt and he was sort of the instructor at the school. So

• 23:29Jocko Willink?

  we, I get up there and I'm taking the classes and he teaches two classes a day or maybe three classes a day. So I'm just taking three classes a day while he's teaching. You know, one's in the day and he has one in the afternoon. He has one at night and I'm taking all the classes and I'm learning, you know, his style. And at this time, honestly, the styles weren't, if you go to a different school now, you can, there's a little bit more variance in styles between schools. At this time, man, it was all closer to the source, right? So all the styles weren't, so it was closer to now, now we're actually getting beyond that because now with YouTube and everything and everyone competing so much all the time, there's a much quicker transfer of energy. But five years ago, eight years ago, when you went to a different school, there was a much different style. But at this time, 20 years ago, there was, there was,

• 24:13Jocko Willink?

  you know, the, it all came from the same source, Hickson. So it was much more similar. So where I'm going to these classes, two, three times a day and. There there's ten fifteen people, you know, and they're good, you know, we're all probably about the same, you know, he there might have been a purple belt or two and Lamont was awesome, super cool guy, real casual guy. And so that's what the classes were like, super casual, we'd lay out the mats on the wooden floor in the dance studio and then we'd we'd train and shoot the breeze, kind of like a jujitsu class, just laid back, little stretch, maybe learn a move or two, had some rolls, little bit more relaxed, Fabio, Fabio Santos runs, he's more old school and more regimented, you know, Fabio, you're like gonna get in there, you're gonna do your warm up, and then you're gonna learn

• 24:56Jocko Willink?

  some moves and then you're gonna train. Lamont was a little bit more laid back, cool, chill, teaching really good stuff. So that's Monday and then Tuesday and then Wednesday and then and then Lamont, I was, you know, in the afternoon on or in the evening on Wednesday, or I think it was, I forget what day, it was like Wednesday or Thursday, I think it was Wednesday, he's like, hey, Hickson's gonna teach tomorrow night. And I was like, oh, awesome, right? So, so I come in Thursday night, I I is I'm pulling up in my nineteen ninety whatever, like Dodge caravan, pull up and minivan man and

• 25:36Jocko Willink?

  so there's like cars, more cars. I was like, hmm. So now I walk in and it's it's there's people everywhere, right? It's crowded. It's it's crowded. It went from like ten or twelve people in a class, now we there's like a hundred people. I'm serious, we had to lay out like all these different mats and everyone is quiet. No one's talking. It was, I was doing dang. So Hickson's there and he's, you know, like in a corner, you know, just cool, chill. And he looks at Lamont and he, you know, gives him like a head nod. And the moment's like, okay, we're warming up. And I was like, okay.

• 26:19Jocko Willink?

  So everyone gets in the line. They start doing the, the old school jujitsu or running in a circle. Silence, like no one's saying anything. It's just silence. And so you could feel the presence of Hickson. There's a hundred people now and there's just 10 times as many people. And everyone's quiet. Everyone's serious. And then, you know, he, we get done with like a 20 minute warm up of stretching and exercise. Conditioning. Getting after it. And then he gets done. He gets us all in a circle. And the circle's huge. And then, you know, Hickson like walks out into the middle of the mat. And then he sits in the center and you can hear a pin drop. It was, it was that, it was that awesome.

• 27:05Jocko Willink?

  And, and then he taught class. He taught class and I took notes.

• 27:12Jocko Willink?

  And maybe at some point, we can go through all those notes that I took, but there's one of the most important lessons that I learned about jujitsu as a whole. I learned that during that time. And I, I actually, the way Hickson told it, I've translated into my own way of saying it. But believe me, it's close. Like

• 27:40Jocko Willink?

  it, what it was, what it is, is this, okay?

• 27:45Jocko Willink?

  And you've probably heard me, I, I teach this to this day. Is if, if you're playing basketball or you're playing soccer, I think soccer is what Hickson used as the example. If we're playing soccer. And I, I wanna, or if we're playing football, cause you played football, if I faint to the left, right? You, as a defender, you have to react to me. You, you, if you don't move to the left, I'm just gonna go left and you're gonna be lost. So, so when I fake to the left and now you move, I can quickly adjust back because I'm one step ahead of you. It was a fake. It wasn't a full commitment. So I can get by you.

• 28:28Jocko Willink?

  Because, because when you put you, when you move your weight, your weight is a real thing and you have to place it into the ground. And when you put your weight into the ground, it takes a quarter of a second to pull that weight back off the ground and put, put it in the other direction. So the difference in jujitsu, the guy on the bottom.

• 28:46Jocko Willink?

  When you fake me, I don't have to put my weight anywhere. My, my, my, my weight does not have to follow you. If you're on the Because with a guy on the bottom in jujitsu, his weight, he doesn't, if you, if you shuck and jive, my weight, I don't have to plant my weight. That's what's really hard to like faint one way and then run the other way. It doesn't really work. Can you do it? Yeah, but it doesn't work consistently in jujitsu. And so that was this huge lesson to me that I've always remembered. And what, and the other part of it is, was the hip movement. And, and how to move your hips on the bottom. And if you don't move your hips on the bottom, you're, you're gonna get your guard passed.

• 29:30Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't control the hips when you're passing, then you won't be able to pass the guard. So I have a real, I had a real focus for a long time of how to keep my hips mobile on the ground. So that people couldn't pass my guard. And it's something that I still concentrate on. And when you're passing the guard, if you, and, and again, this is another thing you might hear me tell people like, oh, you got control of my legs. Cool. You didn't control my hips. And you can control my legs, you can put, pin them on the ground, I can still move my hips eventually. It'll be a little bit more tricky, but I can do it. So those were, those two points that I learned from Hickson, I, I really focused on them for a long period of time.

• 30:14Jocko Willink?

  And so that was awesome. And then of course, I rolled with Hickson because I was friends with Fabio and Fabio told him I was gonna be there. And so he, you know, he was a, a great guy and, you know, rolled with me. And like I said, I was a blue belt. And I was a good blue belt, right? Meaning when I, when I rolled with, when I rolled with brown belts and black belts, which there weren't a lot of at the time, I did really good. You know, I mean, we were all competitive at, at Fabio's school at that time. You know, us guys that were really hardcore, because Dean at this time was, he might've been a blue belt or a purple belt, but we were the guys. Higgs was a purple belt at the time. So, so we were the guys.

• 30:55Jocko Willink?

  And you know, when guys would come from Brazil, off the competition circuit to come and train at Fabio's when they'd stop by, you know, those guys would have a brown belts, black belts are going against Dean Lister and Higgs. I mean, it, those guys were not getting It was, you know, Dean and Higgs were awesome. Dean was phenomenal. Higgs was phenomenal. And I was in the mix with those guys, you know? So we were good, is what I'm saying. Yeah. So what did it feel like to roll with Hickson? I thought about this. And I thought about a way to describe it, and this is the way I am going to describe it. It's gonna be hard to imagine, but try and imagine it. Okay, have you ever felt very quick, a large amount of very quickly rolling water?

• 31:40Jocko Willink?

  Or flowing water? Yes. So a river. A giant hose, a pipe with water, like coming out of it. And when you stick your hand, like you can't barely resist it, that much water. So imagine that feeling of force. But it's not going fast, it's going slow. It just, you can't stop it. And wherever you, but just like water, so it's like that much force, but just like water. Wherever you go to stop it, it just goes around it. Yeah. And it was, that was what it was like. And really, really just phenomenal jiu-jitsu. And I mean, even at that time, and remembering back to it,

• 32:23Jocko Willink?

  it was another level of jiu-jitsu for sure. That was, was awesome. Now, so yeah, that's, that's rolling with Hickson. I still actually, I got some mutual friends with Hickson. And I see him occasionally. And

• 32:40Jocko Willink?

  you know, the, the, the cool thing about Hickson is

• 32:48Jocko Willink?

  he's got a personality

• 32:51Jocko Willink?

  that

• 32:55Jocko Willink?

  I would love to tell you that he's, you know, like a stereotypical peaceful warrior master that seems content with where he's ended up in life and with his experiences in life. But with Hickson,

• 33:14Jocko Willink?

  I get the feeling that he's a guy that fighting is in his blood. Right? And even though he's a mellow guy and he has nothing to prove to anybody, I think, and it kind of feels like the way I feel.

• 33:34Jocko Willink?

  He likes the taste of blood. You know what I mean? And even though, even though I'm kind of the same way, like I feel like, you know, I'm pretty mellow. I mean, I don't, I, I, I don't have anything. I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. I guess maybe I am in some ways, but I'm pretty mellow. But I, I still, I like the taste of blood and I love that feeling of

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  combat. And that's kind of what you sense, that's what I sense from Hickson. And so, yeah, awesome. And maybe we'll have him on here sometime.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:13Jocko Willink?

  Hickson Grace.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  He does have that mystique though. That's, it is crazy how, how that is.

• 34:18Jocko Willink?

  You know, and it's because it's real.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:20Jocko Willink?

  It's because it's real. You can go and like I said, Google Hickson Gracie stories. Hickson Gracie black belt stories. There's stories where he would line up 10 black belts and say, I'm going to submit you all with an arm lock on your right arm. And he would do it.

• 34:37Jocko Willink?

  And he would do it. And that's, and so, yeah, that builds you some mystique for sure.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yes. I, one time I went, I was going to film with him, just like a quick video clip. It's me and Halik. So we went to Crohn's Academy, Crohn Gracie's Academy. And so I get there and he's there already, you know, and he'd, so guys were leaving. They were done training. Guys were leaving and Halik's like, hey, I'm going to be like 45 minutes to an hour late. So it's just me and Hicks in there in the hole. Like everyone's gone. So he's like, yeah, I was like, oh yeah, I'm here to film. No, I was there to film.

• 35:17Jocko Willink?

  I would have been, hey, you got your gi?

• 35:19Speaker 01

  He had his gi, he had his gi pants on. I was scared. I submitted to the mystique, but no, we're, um.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  You know, we were waiting for how like he's, oh yeah, how it's gonna be in, you know, later, whatever. He was like, yeah, yeah, I know. He, he told me or whatever. So he's like, he's kind of just there looking at me. So we just sit down. I got to talk to Hicks and Gracie for like 50 minutes, just about whatever, you know? And he's kind of looking at me like, as if to say like, so what up? You know, who are you? And what are we doing? And you know, like all cool, but he was still Hicks and Gracie. So my mind kept, while we were talking, my mind kept going into like, jumping outside of my brain and thinking like, look what you're doing right now. You're sitting with Hicks and, you know how like after we roll and we don't have anywhere to be, we'll be just talking about stuff, just sitting there. Most people that's how. And I was doing that with Hicks and Gracie, just me and him. Bro, that's crazy, right?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  I mean, as you know, as a, as someone who knew, I know who that is from the beginning, even before I even started jujitsu. I know who that is. So yeah, man. And I was like, how I

• 36:18Jocko Willink?

  You know what else is funny too is that night, back in the day, he brought, he brought his sons with him. So Hoxton was there and Kron was there. Kron was a little tiny kid, man, tiny kid. And Fabio told him that I was in the SEAL teams and stuff. And that's, you know, so he, he told, he had a little conversation. That's another funny thing. He said, uh, so when we got done rolling and we were talking, like yours is saying, and he says to me, he goes, you know, said, hey, you know, thanks for roll or whatever. He goes, yeah. He said, uh, you're, you're, you're very comfortable in bad positions.

• 36:53Jocko Willink?

  So hey, right off, I'll take it. I'll take it. It's, I do this too. Sometimes when people used to ask me, hey, what was it like rolling with Hicks? And I'd say, okay, let me get in your guard. And then I'd get in their garden and then say, okay now. And then I'd say, okay, now just relax and let me pass. And then I would just pass their garden mount. And I said, that's what it feels like.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Very comfortable in bed. That's kind of like after you like box a guy and you say, hey, you can take punches.

• 37:23Jocko Willink?

  Basically, basically.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  Your face is tough.

• 37:26Jocko Willink?

  And that's another thing. I mean, I kind of held on to that. Like I always liked to be comfortable in bad positions. And Dean, it's really good. Cause when, you know, I train with Dean all the time. And so, you know, there's no one that, that I roll with on a regular basis. I'd roll with some really good guys. But when Dean is mounted on you, or when Dean is on side control on you.

• 37:51Jocko Willink?

  It is insufferable.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  It's a bad position.

• 37:54Jocko Willink?

  Bad position. And especially because like I'll roll with, I roll with other really high level guys that aren't from our school. And when I roll with them, if they get a position like that, they don't know exactly my every little escape. Dean knows exactly, he knows, he knows all 14 of my escapes. He knows them all.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  So you're more trapped.

• 38:13Jocko Willink?

  I'm more trapped. And it's the same with him. When I get to a position, I know what he's gonna do. Like I know. And so he and I joke about it, you know, eat, but neither one of us want the other person to be, especially a cross side, you know, and we don't want that.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  But actually it's an, I guess it's an accident, acid in boxing too. If you can take punches.

• 38:35Jocko Willink?

  Well, for sure.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  But being comfortable in bad positions in jujitsu is, is kinda like back when you were talking about the, uh, when you're in water and things are going bad. Don't panic.

• 38:44Jocko Willink?

  Don't panic.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  So if you're comfortable in bad positions, that's like you have the ability to, yeah, to not panic. And that helps so much because when you panic, you gasp.

• 38:51Jocko Willink?

  And you make stupid mistakes.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:53Jocko Willink?

  In jujitsu, you make stupid mistakes.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  So, yeah, man.

• 38:55Jocko Willink?

  I'm just gonna push this leg out of here. Oh, now he's grabbing my arm.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. He wanted you to do that. It's good. Compliment. Right, next question. In podcast 54, The Armed Forces Officer.

• 39:09Jocko Willink?

  Remember that book? The Armed Forces Officer?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:11Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  One of my favorites.

• 39:13Jocko Willink?

  1950 edition.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Can you expound on the difference between these two, these two seemingly contradictory quotes from the manual?

• 39:23Speaker 01

  A firm hold at the beginning pays tenfold dividend of the timid approach, followed by a show of firmness later on, from General Malone's story of, uh, World War I, compared with.

• 39:34Jocko Willink?

  And General Malone's, if you remember, the story was, there was a messed up unit and he went in there and was like, all right, get squared away, get these boards in place, get out of the mud, what you need to get your uniforms together, just tighten them up out of the gate.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Right, like firmness right, right away.

• 39:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  And then compared to, um,

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Okay, here's a quote. "It's a mistake for an officer on taking a new post to order sweeping changes affecting the other man in the belief that this will give him a reputation for action and firmness. The studying of situations is the overture of the steadying of it." And that's from General LeMay.

• 40:09Jocko Willink?

  And General LeMay, if you remember that one, he said, "Hey, none of you guys would be in these positions unless you were doing things right. So I assume that you're doing a good job and we're going to continue what you're doing." That's what he said when he took over. So what's going on here is you've got two completely different situations. And the two situations are, one is a guy taking over for a situation, a known bad situation. The troops are lacking discipline, they're not executing the mission. And if you remember from that story, they weren't even doing basic military bearing. They didn't, they weren't saluting the officers. They just had thrown everything out the window. That's a situation where you gotta come in, you gotta get firm out of the gate. That's what you gotta do. Now, they gotta know that, they gotta know that things are gonna change.

• 40:51Jocko Willink?

  They gotta know it's real. They gotta know there's a new plan and they gotta know what that new plan is. And then they gotta know that there's new standards and they gotta know what the new standards are. Boom. And it's the same thing, you know, Hackworth, he did that, he came in with some, you know, if you remember when he took over the hardcore battalion, what became the hardcore battalion, the first thing he did was like, "All those radios and guitars and all this crap that you have sitting around base, put it all in the middle of the base tomorrow and we're getting rid of it all." That was a big change. Now, Hackworth, then he, then he started implementing two changes a day, if you remember. "Hey, gotta get everyone to carry your weapon at all times. That's the next change. Okay, get your helmet on. Okay, now we gotta get helmet covers on." He just made one, one

• 41:36Jocko Willink?

  or two small changes a day after he made some big sweeping changes out of the gate because it was a jacked up battalion. And now, now the difference is, if you're going into a situation where everything's going fine, or okay, or at a bare minimum, it's like, normal, well, then you don't need to step in there and show that you're the man by making these sweeping changes. You don't need to do that. It comes across, it comes across. Like the people that you just took charge of have no idea what they're doing. And you don't, you don't respect what they, what they, their methodology, you don't respect their, their performance. Cause you're coming in and saying, oh, Echo, by the way, the way you record the podcast, you need to get rid of those microphones. You need to edit it tighter. Your basis too. You know, what would you be thinking if I came in and said that?

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Well, you know, mean, little bit different, but you know, I understand your point.

• 42:29Jocko Willink?

  Point being, if somebody comes in and starts criticizing you.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Right. When you're doing okay.

• 42:33Jocko Willink?

  When you're doing a good job. You're doing a good job.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:36Jocko Willink?

  Me, I think you're doing a good job. There's some people that get on you about that base occasionally.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  That's, that's really on you, you know, your base, your base, but yeah. You know, extreme disownership on my part.

• 42:47Jocko Willink?

  So that's the thing. If that's the decision you gotta make. And guess what? It's not black and white. You don't go into some units. It's not like you're gonna get a choice between a unit that's doing horrible and a unit that's doing great. You're gonna get everything in between and therefore you have to modulate your leadership to reflect. If it's, if it's a group that might have a tendency of being a little bit jacked up and they're getting close, guess what? Gotta, gotta be maybe not sweeping changes, but you might need to make a little statement.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:17Jocko Willink?

  If it's a group that's performing awesome, fantastic, top, top team, top whatever. You might need to come and say, hey, guys, I see that you're doing great. I'm here to just keep you guys doing what you're doing. Let me know what you need to support. Boom. And it could be anywhere in between that, that spectrum. That's why leadership is challenging. Cause you gotta be, you gotta have nuance. You gotta be able to modulate.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:40Jocko Willink?

  You gotta figure out where that is. And you gotta test it out too. Once you give that sweeping order, you gotta see what kind of reaction you got.

• 43:49Jocko Willink?

  You know, you gotta see, do people just instantly rebel? Okay. Then let's talk this, let's get some feedback. What's going on? Clearly we have a disrespect scenario going on. We need to get to bottom of this. Let me get some key leaders in here. Let me talk to them, get some feedback. Which you should do that before you make any sweeping changes. Anyway, you gotta at least talk to the key leadership. Get them in the game. Get them on board.

• 44:10Jocko Willink?

  That's why leadership is awesome. That's why that's why this stuff is so fun because it's challenging. It's different every single time.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels like um, kind of like what we were talking about earlier where if you start to understand the formula, all the different details that come out, you can kind of apply the formula in one way. And even then still dynamic, but but you can you can just get a better grasp.

• 44:30Jocko Willink?

  It's just like jujitsu. If you understand the concept.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:34Jocko Willink?

  That you have to be able to move your hips. There's a bunch of different ways you can get your hips moving. If you understand the concept that you need to immobilize the hips to pass the guard. If you understand that concept, there's all kinds of different ways you can do it. If you understand the concept of totally jacked up team is going to need a sweeping change to get their attention and get them to understand that things are going to change. And what they were doing was unacceptable. If you understand that concept that that's what it's going to take, you can apply it all the way through those gradations, all the way down to hey, this team is doing great and I don't need to change much. I just need to give them the support that they need.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:07Jocko Willink?

  Conceptual instruction.

• 45:10Jocko Willink?

  Very important.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Solid. Next question. Jocko, I recently listened to the Strategic Con podcast while on my way to coach lacrosse. And I was impressed how many of the points made between both Maurice and your experience as an operator translated into the field. Another point of the cast that stuck out, and now I reflect on as learning experience and coachable moment for myself was the saying of good work.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  When we recently battled through the first half of the game, lacrosse game. It was a grudge.

• 45:43Jocko Willink?

  And actually in this one, he's talking, I edited a little bit out of this because he had a really long email. And we believe in brevity around here. So he's actually now talking about a soccer match, a grudge match that they're playing.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Okay. So boom, they had a hard first half. It was a grudge match, very evenly played until until the half. When I told the boys they were doing good work out there. And that we were matching their intensity and putting pressure on them. Then the first 30 seconds of the second half, we were scored on due to lack of intensity and follow through. I suspect it may have been from my good job, quote unquote, good work, keep it up, talk we had in at halftime.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  My question to you is, how does one reinforce the fact they were hitting hard out there? Give them some words of encouragement and send them back out without taking a hit in intensity? As a coach of freshman high school boys who are basically wild dogs and need direction plus support, what could I have done different to keep the intensity up in the second half and even after getting scored on?

• 46:47Jocko Willink?

  So this is, this is pretty simple and I've actually talked about this before. Um, I've talked about it with regards to MMA and I've talked about it with regards to my SEAL platoon, my SEAL task unit, and that is that you have to be very careful with praise.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:02Jocko Willink?

  Because in the example that I give in the corner of MMA fights is if you tell a guy, hey, good job. You know, you, oh, you won that last round. Keep, just keep doing what you're doing.

• 47:14Jocko Willink?

  He's gonna back off.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:15Jocko Willink?

  He's gonna back off. And guess what the other corner is telling him? You lost that round. You need to step it up. You need to get aggressive. And that's what they're gonna do. They're gonna get out there. Cause I'll tell you, most people in an MMA fight, MMA fight is a, it's like wrestling. It's a very intense cardio activity. You're good. Everybody's gonna be tired. Be just about everybody, you know, obviously. So when you get two guys, well, let me, let me rephrase that. When you get two guys that are evenly matched and are going at it hard, they're both gonna be tired. And so they're gonna want a little bit of a rest. So if you give them that opportunity to back off the throttle just a little bit, subconsciously, they're gonna do it. Cause they think they're doing good. They think they won that last round.

• 47:54Jocko Willink?

  So you can see that all the time. You see, I mean, it happened, it happened with Rhonda. You know, they're saying, hey, good job. Good job. You're looking good. And she's getting crushed. I mean, that's kind of a bad example of this. Um, but anyways, you, you gotta be careful that in, in, I've told this story before, but when my task unit was going through training and uh, we were doing CQC, so close quarters combat drills. We're going to the kill house over and over. And you know, we broke for lunch or something. We come back from lunch and the guy, the cadre. They're like, hey, you guys are kicking ass. This is great. Keep it up. You guys are the best task

• 48:37Jocko Willink?

  unit we've seen out here. You guys are crushing it. And literally, the next run, guys go in the house, they screw everything up, they miss targets, just a disaster. And I talked to the contrary, I'm like, don't ever tell my guys again that they're the best guys in the world. Don't, don't tell them that. You can tell them, good job, but don't be telling them they're the best people in the world. It just doesn't work. And so that's kind of what happened, you know, here. Now, the thing is, this doesn't mean that you can never give anybody credit, or never give anyone praise, because you absolutely have to do that. But what you have to do, you have to proactively counteract the mental lapse in intensity that's about to take place because you just compliment them. So, how do you do that?

• 49:20Jocko Willink?

  So, let's say you're on the lacrosse field, or the soccer field, you bring the boys in, you say, look, guys, good half, good first half, you took it to them. You showed them that we can hang with them, you played them even, that's fine. Here's the problem. Even isn't good enough. We need to get out there and play harder. We need to step it up. I actually want you guys to play like murderers. That's what I want you to do. I want you to win every loose ball. I want you to make every tackle. I want you to get your head on every ball that's in the air. You stick to them on defense. I don't even want them to be able to breathe. I want you to work them into the ground. I want pressure,

• 50:05Jocko Willink?

  pressure up front, pressure in the midfield, and pressure on D. You make them fight for every inch, every ball, and every breath. I want you to go out there and take their souls.

• 50:19Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta counter that, you know, you gotta counter the good job thing. So in MMA, it's the same thing, you know, hey, good round. It was a close round, but a good round, but listen, you can't let up right now. You need to step it up. He knows he has to step it up. I'm telling you, he knows he's got to step it up. And if you come out weak, he's going to get the upper hand right away. You need to put him away. You need to go out there and crush him. Crush his soul. Turn it on, and put this guy away. I want you to kill him.

• 50:54Jocko Willink?

  So that's what you need to do with that. Now for tactical training, same thing. Cause you know, I know this is police officers and SWAT teams and guys that are in the military. You're doing tactical training all the time and you're going to see that as the team comes together, they're going to start to do good. But like I said, if you give them too much, they're going to slack, right? So you know, when you're running your tactical training, for your guys, you say, "Look, hey, guys, I see some good progress out there. We're making some good runs. But let me tell you, it's not good enough right now. Okay? This is the deal. The enemy can rely on luck. We can't. We rely on our training. We train to be prepared for anything that the enemy throws at us.

• 51:38Jocko Willink?

  So we're going to work as hard as we can and be as perfect as we can. So we are ready for the worst case scenario. So get jocked up for another run right now. And I want you to go in there like a band of bloodthirsty Viking shock troops on a damn Berserker rage and crush this.

• 52:00Jocko Willink?

  So you want to bring that kind of counter, right?

• 52:05Jocko Willink?

  And then in combat, again, I just was talking to some guys yesterday, and it's the same thing, right? Complacency is the worst thing that can happen with your team when you're in a combat scenario. So when you're in combat, you know, it's, "Look, hey, guys, we're running some good operations, right? We got the upper hand, and that's good.

• 52:28Jocko Willink?

  But it's not good enough. We cannot be complacent and we can't take our foot off the enemy's throat. We are going to be relentless. We are not going to give him the chance to regroup. He will not get the chance to recover. There will be no downtime for the enemy. And I'll tell you what, I don't even want the enemy to have a chance to bury their dead.

• 52:53Jocko Willink?

  We are not going to stop until there is nothing left to pursue and no one left to bury. So sharpen up your knives, load up your magazines, because we got work to do.

• 53:07Jocko Willink?

  So again, we gotta counter, you know, the compliments and balance essentially what I'm doing in each one of those, you know, situations. I'm balancing the positive affirmations of what is happening with some new goals and new objectives that will ensure that there will be no slack.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  So the guy said that they were ninth graders, freshmen?

• 53:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, freshmen, wild dogs.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 53:46Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  How do you detach without seeming completely cold?

• 53:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay, important question. I say this all the time, you know, you gotta detach. I also say all the time, if you detach from all your emotions, that means you're a robot and people don't follow robots. I say it all the time. So when you do detach, you can't, you can't completely step away, but if you do, you have to, you have to act, you have to do a little acting. Now, first of all, we already talked about this, right? We already talked about these red flags that, that show that you're gonna lose your temper, that you're gonna get emotional about something, you know,

• 54:35Jocko Willink?

  your clenched fist and your raised voice and your heavy breathing and your flared nostrils and all that stuff, right? So you know what those things mean? Those things mean, those things, your signal that mean detach. Okay, so you gotta work on that. Now here's the dichotomy of it is once you are there and once you have detached, you actually have to now go back and do one or some of those things that you are trying not to do. You have to go and you have to do them a little bit in a nice little controlled manner, right? Maybe you raise your voice a little bit.

• 55:17Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you just kind of clench your jaw and you remember I said to you like like nodding your head in a positive way and that's that's a when you if you're coming to me with an issue and I nod my head to the affirmative, you know, up and down saying, yes, I understand. Yes, I understand. That's a soothing thing to your team, right? They see that you're you're okay with it. The opposite of that is when you shake your head in the negative. Like if you're telling me some problem and I'm shaking my head, it's like me going, damn, I can't believe this is going on, right? So, so maybe that's another thing that you, you know, you you clench your jaw and you shake your head to just show the person like, look, I know we're in a bad way. I get it. I'm not sitting back here like it's no big deal. I know it's gonna be a tough. I know we just lost a sale or I know we just, you know, are gonna have

• 56:00Jocko Willink?

  to plan another mission that we just got back. I understand that it's hard. You care. I care. You know, I'm with you. You want to give that. Maybe you let out that little sigh of frustration, you know, like a little, like something like that, right? Just gonna do that little thing. Just do that. Just showing that you do got some emotions and you are invested and all that stuff. And and then, once, once you see that you've achieved your goal here, that you can see that, that they see that you have some emotions on the situation, then you you quickly get yourself to recover from that, right? You get yourself composed.

• 56:44Jocko Willink?

  And you've shown them and they and they've seen it's almost like a little they see like a little weakness and they go, okay, you know, Jocko's are human. They can relate. Yeah, I can relate. But you know, I actually want him to calm down. I actually am glad he's so good. I mean, he's into it, but I'm glad he's calming down. That's good. Okay, so then you recover, you go back to your calm, cool, collected self, right? That's what we're gonna do. Now, like I said, this is, do we call this acting? I guess maybe we could call it acting, but at the same time, acting means you're trying to pretend to be somebody, right? You're not trying to pretend to be anybody else. You're being you. That's all you're doing. You're being you. You're just acting like yourself, just showing a little bit more of the emotion and.

• 57:30Jocko Willink?

  Then you would be if you were just completely detached. So it's not like you're trying to act like some, you know,

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Seth Davis Jr.

• 57:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're not trying to do to play a role of someone else. You're just being you. So and you already know what you do because you've learned how, what the signals are. So when you know that you raise your voice and that means you're okay, then just raise your voice a little bit.

• 57:51Jocko Willink?

  If you know that you you just give a little side, it's those careful things. And so yeah, I guess it is acting in a way, but it's not full on. Anybody can do it. I think.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you did. I think that's great. This is my opinion. You do with your kids. You know, I mean, like, oh, I mean, I'm, you know, my kids.

• 58:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you gotta pretend to act.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, you're mad or or whatever. Ain't it good, even happy, even.

• 58:17Jocko Willink?

  Pretend to act happy?

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Excited. No, okay, we'll say excited. Hey, I got something for you. It's a drawing of a happy face, same as she did yesterday. You know, it's like, I'm not, the honest truth is, I'm excited about other things. We'll just say that.

• 58:37Jocko Willink?

  Bro, all those, all that love, all that love you got for crying about the daughter getting killed or the letter, you're gonna, you're gonna, it's all going backwards now. People are gonna hate you now.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  No, bro, I'm talking about excitement.

• 58:51Jocko Willink?

  Your daughter draws you a beautiful picture and you don't care about it?

• 58:56Jocko Willink?

  It's cold blooded.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  What I'm gonna give her is a lot of excitement. I'm gonna match her excitement, maybe even go one level higher. That's what I'm gonna give her. So what, am I acting? I'm excited about a lot of other things. A little bit, though, right?

• 59:08Jocko Willink?

  Same thing, same thing, yeah.

• 59:12Jocko Willink?

  Same thing, yeah. I know. It's, is it a form of manipulation? It might be a little bit of a form of manipulation. But again, if you're doing it to help the individual and you're doing it to help the team, then is it manipulation or is it leadership? I say, of course, it's leadership. You're not manip- manipulation is I'm trying to fool you so you do things that I want you to do that are gonna hurt you. Yeah. We're not doing that. It's not what we're running here.

• 59:38Jocko Willink?

  All right.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 59:41Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Please discuss how discipline in one area doesn't make up for slack in other areas. For example, the fitness guru who has no savings.

• 59:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, this is something that we all have to work out, watch out for is the fact that we, we focus on our strengths, right? That's what we do. That's what people do. So you get a person that's smart, you know, really intellectual person and they let themselves go physically.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:00:11Jocko Willink?

  You know, or you get a person that's a physical stud, but then they're not going to challenge their brain power. Or like the question that was, you know, the example here that was posed, you know, someone that's a fitness guru or a party guru. I'm throwing that one out there because some people are looking at that.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:00:31Jocko Willink?

  Or they, you know, they're an entrepreneur. I'm an entrepreneur. And so they're driving a new Mercedes, but it's leased.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  And they're behind on payments, right?

• 1:00:43Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Unstrategically.

• 1:00:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that. So you know, I mean, you take another example is what about the business person that doesn't have time for their family, right? And so that's not good. So I think the focus here is we try and we all have to be, try to be well rounded and not focus so much on one area that you're going to let some of the area go. That's target fixation is what that is, right? Is you walk into a room and you get fixated on one target, one bad guy, you think there's one bad guy, so you focus all your energy and then you're getting flanked. That's target fixation. You can't let that happen. You can't let it happen on the battlefield. You can't let it happen in life. So look out for that when you do this.

• 1:01:27Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you, this is actually a reality of the situation. I try and maintain this balance, but I've been actually working a lot lately. And what, and this is a clear indicator to me that I've overbooked myself is last week, we had to, I, we had to skip a day of jujitsu to record. I mean, we don't do that, right? When do we record? We record after jujitsu. But I knew I had so much stuff going on that I said, hey, we gotta, we gotta record it this time because I gotta get this other stuff done because I'm traveling and this and that. And so we had to skip the jujitsu. So that is a red flag to me.

• 1:02:11Jocko Willink?

  That says, I need to, I need to tighten up. I need to get my, you know, get my schedule back in check so that I can do the things that I need to do. Of course, what do I say about the situation? It's fine. You know what? Can't train jujitsu that day because I'm try, I got some travel coming up. Good. I'm going to heal up my shoulder a little bit more. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna, it's, it's fine. But it is an indicator of when things start going in the wrong direction. Maybe I'm getting target fixated on, you know, too much work at a certain time.

• 1:02:46Jocko Willink?

  Which to me, again, I will run this thing in the red, as you say. I like, I like running in the red, right? I'm in the red and I got no problem. Like, we will go hard and the numbers of hours I've been, I will work will have actually no impact on how much I'm going to time to spend with my family and do jujitsu and all that stuff because I'll just do it all. But there is a capacity that you reach where you go, okay, now one of these things that has just started to slide. Now I need to make sure that my levels get re, re leveled, I guess you might say. Equalized is what I should have said. Uh, so back to the subject, don't be a one trick pony, you know?

• 1:03:29Jocko Willink?

  Be a jack of all trades and then master a few of those trades. Right? So you can emphasize fitness guru. You can emphasize intellectual power. You can emphasize jujitsu. But don't put a hundred percent of your effort into one area. Because eventually it will take, you, you won't have anything else. And by the way, if you put all your, you know, if you put all your, all your eggs in the basket of intellectual power, now you're unhealthy and you die. Right? That, that doesn't, you know, I don't care how smart you are. You can't do two plus two when you're dead.

• 1:04:10Jocko Willink?

  So don't put all your focus a hundred percent into one area. Don't become unbalanced in your disciplines. Spread it around and hold the line.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, that's good.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get it. It kind of feels like. Like you can be understood that um. Say I'm real good at. I don't know, fitness.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  And it's easy to justify yourself, you know, like you're you're let's say, okay, I'm real good at fitness. You know, I'm a fitness guru. And I go around and then I see, I don't know, I go to the store, go to some party. And I see this other guy who's like socially, he's just. Hundred percent. Everyone likes me. Such a nice charismatic guy. He makes a lot of money. You know, and all this stuff. But he's not in that good a shape. Or I don't know, he smokes and whatever, you know, it's easy. I think a lot of people. It feels like it's easy to justify. Well, that guy's in bad shape. So who cares? I wouldn't want any of that. I wouldn't want all the money, you know, all this stuff. It seems like you can justify that.

• 1:05:20Jocko Willink?

  And you know what the other guy's saying? Yeah, you might be in good shape. Guess what?

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:25Jocko Willink?

  Nice Toyota Corolla you're driving. He's all negative on him.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:30Jocko Willink?

  So both those guys. Should should instead of saying, hey, you know what they should do? Walk up and be like, hey, man, you know what? I noticed you're pretty successful financially. I would like to get in the game with you a little bit and and learn from you about that. And the other guy should say to him, well, you know what? It looks like you're in pretty good fitness levels. I would like to get in the game with that. Let's. Work together and improve ourselves and go out and kick ass and dominate. Are you in? I'm in. Let's do this. Instead, what does a normal person do? They do exactly what you said. Justify, criticize, cut people down instead of building them up.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:08Jocko Willink?

  And what you have to be careful of. If I was to go to you and say, hey, you know, Echo. I got a lot of money. I can tell you don't have a lot. I'll help you out. That's that can be offensive to some people.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:19Jocko Willink?

  Because you think, dude, who do you think you are?

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:22Jocko Willink?

  I don't need your help. I'm not worried about money. Think I'm worried about money when I got abs like these?

• 1:06:29Jocko Willink?

  So what we have to do is instead of if you if I came to you and said, Echo, dude, I want abs like you got.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:06:36Jocko Willink?

  Can you help me get in the game? And then we form a little relationship. And now I say to you, man, so what you what's your what's your main income stream, dude? You know, what are you doing? And you say, Well, you know, I got these two clients. You got a website? No, not really. Why don't you have a website? You got any social media to advertise? You know, and we go through that road and we build up. We take care of each other. So we want to do as people.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Kind of like you ever seen the guys who go, they see like a football player or something. It'll be like, I'd kick his ass, though. You know, you know, that kind of guy, who can always like some successful person. I he I kick his ass, though.

• 1:07:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've told the story before in the SEAL teams. It's a no one. No one is good. If a guy like we have guys in the SEAL teams that are literally, you know, world class athletes in whatever world class triathlete, world class sailor, world class, whatever. And so, oh, you oh, you're you're world class triathlete? Oh, yeah, that guy's really good. Traffic. That's cool.

• 1:07:42Jocko Willink?

  He's a really bad shot. Someone is going to chime in and cut him down. It's the way it goes.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, no slack.

• 1:07:48Jocko Willink?

  No slack, no slack.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Right. We'll go one more. I think so.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Jocko,

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  would you confront an individual team member when reported by other team members that they're talking smack about you? Or would you just ignore?

• 1:08:08Jocko Willink?

  The old classic here. What do you do about the about the negative guy that's trying to bring you down?

• 1:08:18Jocko Willink?

  And sure, you can. You can confront them. Right? And you can, by doing that, join in their in their little game. And in doing that, you give them the satisfaction. They now know that they they got into your head.

• 1:08:39Jocko Willink?

  And then you're turning your workplace into, you know, your basic grade school gossip hall.

• 1:08:48Jocko Willink?

  So we don't like that. But now there are times unfortunately that you you have to address things. And when you do it, you do it professionally. And you do it. Your goal is to disarm them. Because remember that this negative person inside, they probably want the confrontation. That's what they want. And so, you know, you say something like, hey, I heard you had some critique points for me. About how I'm doing my job, you know, if I'd love to get your feedback so I can tighten up my game. So you just disarm them a little bit.

• 1:09:30Jocko Willink?

  And something like that will likely diffuse the scenario a little bit. And, you know, hopefully the people will under the the person will understand that there are other people that are telling you what's going on. It'll kind of put them in check and stifle the situation. But the preferred methodology for this situation for me is quite simple. And that is ignore and outperform them. You see, while you're over there watching me and talking about me, I'm working. I'm working hard.

• 1:10:12Jocko Willink?

  I'm taking things to the next level. You keep gossiping and I'll keep working. You keep talking smack and I'll keep working. You keep focusing on everything and everyone else and I'll keep working. And when you finally look around at where you are and where I'm at, you realize that you have nothing left to talk smack about. And you will lose and I will win.

• 1:10:55Jocko Willink?

  And this here applies to when people are playing office politics, or forming their little cliques, or working their personal agendas. And again, I know, sometimes you have to play those games. But let your first course of action, let the fundamental core of your reaction be to outwork and outperform every last one of them.

• 1:11:40Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight. So, Echo Charles.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:49Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of work.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  To work.

• 1:11:54Jocko Willink?

  Why don't you just go ahead and put in some work right now and let everybody know how they can support this podcast if they want to.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, if they want. Actually, you know what I'm talking about? I'm talking about the work I did today. Metcons, lifting, all that. Anyway, um, anyway, we'll talk about on it. You want to support this podcast? Support yourself on it. What's good? The Krill oil?

• 1:12:18Jocko Willink?

  It's real.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  It's real. And I thought about this, like, I'm kind of lifting kind of hard. And like, I do, um, like squats, right? Just very, like, different kinds of different weights and.

• 1:12:27Jocko Willink?

  Do you do overhead squats?

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  Sometimes, yeah.

• 1:12:30Jocko Willink?

  You don't seem like you do a lot of overhead squats.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Not a lot. I wouldn't call it a lot, but just one that, that.

• 1:12:35Jocko Willink?

  I can feel that.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  I do.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Like, one that, um, you can do it all, like, front squats or something like that, but I go all the way down. All the way down.

• 1:12:45Jocko Willink?

  There's no other way to squat.

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, sometimes, you know, people don't have the flexibility in their feet or their ankles or whatever, or, you know, you're lifting like 500 pounds or something going all the way. Anyway, my point is, it's, it can be hard on your knees.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  It can, straight up. Those, those are the facts. It can be. Anyway, and I'm kind of going kind of hard nowadays. Like, pretty much every day, lift and jiu-jitsu, you know, like, harder than I have in the past, for sure. And I don't have, anyway, the point is the Krill oil.

• 1:13:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the Krill oil is real.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  But I don't have any pain.

• 1:13:19Jocko Willink?

  No pain.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  No pain, still gains though. Like, three a day.

• 1:13:27Jocko Willink?

  Three in the morning and three at night?

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  No, just three a day.

• 1:13:29Jocko Willink?

  Just three a day?

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:30Jocko Willink?

  I do twice as much as you.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  Well, you're bigger and older.

• 1:13:35Jocko Willink?

  You mean bigger and bigger?

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  Factually older. Yeah, and I was thinking zero before.

• 1:13:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  Keep that in mind, too. But yeah, man, it's good. Krill oil, that's the, what's funny is when you think supplements, that's, you think like something that's gonna make me stronger. You know? If I take it versus don't take it. Well, I guess krill oil does make you stronger, but it's like indirect.

• 1:14:00Jocko Willink?

  Work out more.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know?

• 1:14:02Jocko Willink?

  I've been taking krill oil for so long, I don't even know what it's like to not take krill oil anymore.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, dang, it's just one big mystery now.

• 1:14:10Jocko Willink?

  One big path to victory.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, anyway, take the krill oil on it. Ecologically friendly harvesting of krill. Watch the video on it.com. On it.com slash Jocko if you want 10% off pre-workout, which is total strength and performance. It'll give you more strength and more performance.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  My anecdotal.

• 1:14:34Jocko Willink?

  Shroom Tech.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Proof.

• 1:14:37Jocko Willink?

  By the way, I, I got on, I had a bunch, like I said, I've been working a lot. I've been traveling a lot. When you're traveling, you're getting on planes with a bunch of people that you don't know. And they have all kinds of germs, as do I, and so people get sick. And I can't be sick and do my job because I gotta go talk to people and meet people and give speeches and all that stuff. So I can't be getting sick. So I knew I had critical events coming up. So guess what I did? Shroom Tech Immune. Yeah, I did the Shroom Tech Immune. Powered through.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  You're not sick now?

• 1:15:10Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm not sick now. Training hard, surfed today.

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  So it basically.

• 1:15:14Jocko Willink?

  And worked out and got after it, so.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Dang, immune to the sickness.

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  So dang, there's another one in the rotation? Is that what we're saying?

• 1:15:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and, and, yeah, I, I cycled it.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:27Jocko Willink?

  I cycled it because I knew I didn't want to get sick. And I suppose you could just say, hey, when do you want to get sick?

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:35Jocko Willink?

  Never.

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:36Jocko Willink?

  Maybe it's something I should take more often.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's one, and it's one of those things, it's kind of like, um, like a backend computer programmer where you don't really, you're not hit by the success of it. You're only hit by the failure of it, you know, so immune, Shroom Tech Immune, you take it, you don't get sick, you're like, alright, you know, it's cool, you know, but.

• 1:15:58Jocko Willink?

  No, I, like I said, a bunch of events back, the Ted Talk, and so what am I going to show up to the Ted Talk coughing?

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  Can't take that chance. Yeah, yeah, can't take that chance.

• 1:16:08Jocko Willink?

  Can't happen. Stuff he knows, you know, what, what are you gonna do? No, you can't do those things. You gotta show up and have your A game.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:15Jocko Willink?

  So, Shroom Tech Immune.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and these are good because these aren't like, um, you know how, okay, so cruel, let's go cruel oil. Where that works, your joints work, but it's not like it's like a cortisone shot where, you know, you just don't feel it when you get off it, you're jacked, you know, or you're back to zero. It's like, this is stuff that like helps your body do it, you know? That's the good part.

• 1:16:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's not, it's not a foreign horrible substance that you're gonna become reliant on.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  依附性，yeah, man, it's so good. Um, anyway, okay, yeah, they're all good, all of them, and there's other stuff, there's cool stuff too. The, the almond, it's like a three nut butter blend, good too.

• 1:16:55Jocko Willink?

  I haven't tried that.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  Gourmet.

• 1:16:56Jocko Willink?

  It's good.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  It's too bad that's on you, bro. It's good. And, um, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of stuff. Look on there, it's protein powder and obviously quality protein powder. If you, if you're into protein powder, um, Shroom Tech for performance, the, the pre-workout, that's the one, bro, if you're, if you're lifting and doing hard workouts, get the, get the pre-workout, because it's not stimulant, it's not like, you know?

• 1:17:19Jocko Willink?

  So, so I don't, because I work out early in the morning, as we know. And I don't like working out on an empty stomach or on a full stomach. So I work out on an empty stomach in the morning.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  Good idea.

• 1:17:29Jocko Willink?

  But I, and you told me that you might consider this cheating. Because I will take it. Prejujits.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:17:40Jocko Willink?

  Yo, look at you like I'm cheating. Look at this guy.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  More so, it's not, it's, but it's not cheating at all.

• 1:17:45Jocko Willink?

  But then also on top of that, I don't do it. I'll do it if every heavy hitter is coming to train. I'll, I'll, I'll do it.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  It's an advantage.

• 1:17:56Jocko Willink?

  I, I remember us rolling with, I was on a 72 hour fast and I was like almost at the end of it. And I did everything normal. I didn't, didn't change anything. I squatted. I did pull ups. I did everything normal. Worked out, surfed, did jiu jitsu. I was at the end of it and I was rolling to big Eric, um, you know, Judo Eric. And I said, I'm going to tell you something when we get done. So we rolled hard and it was no, it was just the way we normally roll, you know, and got after it hard. And I said, and he said, what were you going to tell me? I said, yeah, I'm on a, I'm on the tail end of a 72 hour fast right now. And he's like, well, it didn't seem to affect your performance. And I said, no, I don't think it affected your performance at all.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:31Jocko Willink?

  Just straight up.

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  I rolled with somebody and I got him. I forget who. It was, it was a while ago, but, and then, and I got him and you could tell he was pissed. Who the hell was it? Anyway, he said, oh, one of the first things he said, I'm fasting right now.

• 1:18:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  I forget who.

• 1:18:49Jocko Willink?

  And that is, that is actually why I didn't tell Eric.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:53Jocko Willink?

  Cause then it's just an excuse.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Like your excuse.

• 1:18:55Jocko Willink?

  And also, and also. Psychological warfare, right? If I tell him, hey, I'm fasted. I'm in a fasted state. He might get all fired up.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  Get empowered, dude.

• 1:19:03Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm not going to let that happen. Jiu jitsu is.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Let him be weak.

• 1:19:07Jocko Willink?

  There's a mind.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  There's a mind. Yeah. Jiu jitsu is going on even before you roll.

• 1:19:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. When you clap the hands.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:13Jocko Willink?

  Give it that little bump. That was an aggressive bump.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  Remember that time right after we rolled? And you said, hey, you know, did you feel that I was like, kind of getting tired towards the end there? And I said, no, you're like, yeah, cause I wasn't.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  Feel proud you are of that right now. You that's like your, your best line to me. I think you think.

• 1:19:33Jocko Willink?

  Well, that was a good one. That was a good one.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  It was pretty good.

• 1:19:37Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's, it's hard. It's hard to get me tired at jujitsu.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:43Jocko Willink?

  You know what it is? It's not all conditioning too. I just, I know how to conserve some energy.

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  But you probably, you know how, you know what this is, what, what part of it is, if not a major part? You can endure fatigue and tiredness if you're enjoying what you're doing. That's why for a lot of people, the treadmill is just hell. Even though the treadmill is not that hard, it's like you're going at like a certain, like a low percentage of output. It's just so boring. There's no like payoff in jujitsu. It's like it's payoff upon payoff upon payoff. Like you pass someone's guard. Oh my gosh, they pass your guard. You're like, what the, I gotta wage my thing. You know, it's like this, this intricate battle, you know, that meanwhile you're getting super tired. I mean, you gotta get really tired.

• 1:20:22Jocko Willink?

  But you don't get tired when you do jujitsu.

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  No, no, I don't. Well, me, I'm in, you know, great shape and, you know, all that stuff.

• 1:20:29Jocko Willink?

  You have made some incredible strides though, on two areas. You used to gas out really, really bad. Until, until you started doing metcons in your training, in your, in your non jujitsu training, you used to gas out really bad.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:41Jocko Willink?

  Number one. Number two, you used to get really claustrophobic and not be able to handle that.

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they were, they kind of play off each other.

• 1:20:49Jocko Willink?

  I cured you of both those.

• 1:20:53Jocko Willink?

  Once I realized you were claustrophobic, I was a real jerk for a while.

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're like test time.

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  How you like this?

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  Well, that, yeah. And what's crazy is there's a third element there is because if, you know, you gas quick.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  And then you get claustrophobic, now you're, that's another enemy. The gassing and the claustrophobia, that's another enemy. So I'm not just going against you and your jujitsu. I'm going against gassing claustrophobia. So that makes me even more like anxiety.

• 1:21:18Jocko Willink?

  And like you said, they're compounding problems because the more tired you get, the worse position you get into. Now you're getting claustrophobic, now you're panicking, you get more tired.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then let that happen. One day, the next day, what, what am I scared of now? It's just re, it's the swamps of sadness, bro, all over again.

• 1:21:34Jocko Willink?

  Well, you've dug your way out of that pretty good. I think the. That con had a lot to do with it. You did. You just, what did you just mentally eventually say like, okay, when Jocko gets side control on me? And holds me there. I just need to relax and just sit there and accept that I'm going to be here for a little while.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And a big part of it, because sometimes I'd start to get dizzy, like for real claustrophobic. It's not just a feeling of, oh, I'm just so claustrophobic and that's it. It was, I think it was like a for real claustrophobic because you start to get dizzy and you know, you know, like you're, not like you're about to faint, but, but something like that, you know, it was that. It was a condition. That's what it felt like.

• 1:22:09Jocko Willink?

  Guy, one of my seal platoons I trained with, and you know, I used to get the guys and train with them all like in a row. And I'd do like 15 minutes with this guy, then 15 minutes with this guy, and then 15 minutes go through the platoons. And, um, and there's one guy and he was super claustrophobic and he would get so mad. He'd be, you know, just, and I'd, I'd hold him, you know, I'd get a cross sider, I'd get the mount and just not let him move. Put my chest over his face and he would just, you know, and he would lose it, you know, just and, and you know, he'd be tapping me like crazy. I'm like, there's no submission. What are you tapping from? You can't tap when there's no submission. Get off me, get off me. And then, you know, finally I'd tap him out and then let him go.

• 1:22:49Jocko Willink?

  And he'd be like, God, you gotta just stay off me. He'd get so mad. He just kind of stopped training, you know?

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  I mean, if you have like a, Dean did that to me back, back in the, when I had, he was like mounted, then I'd be like, like, and then I tap.

• 1:23:05Jocko Willink?

  You can't tap from that.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  Man, I was like, man, yeah.

• 1:23:08Jocko Willink?

  Dean, actually it was funny. Yesterday, maybe the, yeah, it was yesterday. The, the, the power was going out like momentarily in the gym a few times.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:19Jocko Willink?

  Well, before the power started, like it was going off for 10 seconds.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Certain lights though.

• 1:23:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but so it was killing the clock.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:25Jocko Willink?

  So we were going when the clock was still running and he was doing that to me, right? And when he tries to make me claustrophobic or tries to, get reaction out of me, I just go into like complete detachment, mental shutdown, not, not mental shutdown in a negative way, but mental shutdown like, okay, I'm not going to show you any.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43Jocko Willink?

  And so he's like, Like basically rut, uh, putting his knuckle into my rib. He's mounted, smothering me and rubbing his knuckle into my rib. And I'm just laying there like taking it and just thinking about other things. And, and actually I'm thinking like when I get it on top, I'm gonna kill him. And, and then the timer ran out and he kept doing it. And he kept doing it. And he kept doing it for like another 30 seconds. And then he laughed and he jumped off. So then we were going again. And I, I got him into, got a good position, right? I, I got him in the arm lock and I'm sitting there and he's so hard to finish, you know? If you don't believe me, go watch him go against Jean Jay in, in Metamoros. And, you know, there's

• 1:24:28Jocko Willink?

  Jean Jay, one of the best jujitsu practitioners of all time, goes for an arm lock on Dean, Dean gets out of it. So I'm going for an arm lock on Dean and the timer goes, like it's the end of the round. And in, and he's like, oh, you can hear him. He goes, oh, cause I didn't let go. And he goes, he goes, I said, you violated the jujitsu Geneva Conventions on the last round. And he laughed and then I let him go. But, uh, it's all good.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  That is kind of what that is. Well, the guy tapping and you don't let go. That's a violation of the Geneva Convention.

• 1:25:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the jujitsu conventions.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 1:25:05Jocko Willink?

  You can't, you can't be breaking those laws.

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  The MetCon and getting into condition, losing like a little bit of weight or whatever. Sure, it gets, in my case, it got me in, you know, better shape and I can, you can go longer, less classively just in general. But the, the bigger impact was that that's not something I have to worry about anymore. Dealing with being tired when I get tired.

• 1:25:28Jocko Willink?

  And mentally, you become, you know what it feels like to be tired. Cause I don't think you knew what that felt like before.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  It was hard to deal with. I would say that's how it felt to me. Like where I'm like, dang, I'm tired. I need to not be tired. That's the goal now. I don't care about getting tapped out anymore. It's the tiredness is, is really the fight, the, the demon here. Not the, the tapping out. But once you go, the MetCon, not like I said, the MetCon and just muscular conditioning in general, it'll.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  Sure, it'll get you in shape, but since you have to kind of do it all the time for it to work, like any exercise, you're used to it. That feeling becomes like common.

• 1:26:03Jocko Willink?

  Exactly.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  You're inoculated.

• 1:26:05Jocko Willink?

  You're mentally inoculated too. Oh, I'm out of breath. I'm not, you, what you used to think was I'm out of breath and I'm gonna die. And now you think I'm out of breath and that's okay.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll recover.

• 1:26:18Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you'll recover in some other position.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and man, it makes jujitsu way funner, way funner. You can just go, I went with Andy, two 10 minute run, you know, with the thing and he's, and he's going hard and it was like, sure, you're, you know, it's a good, good workout, but it's, yeah, it's just makes it way funner.

• 1:26:35Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  But yeah, the point is there, that's why you can endure tiredness is when you're having a good time, when there's little payouts. You ever notice, even if you don't really roll that hard, you might be different. Actually, no, I'm sure you feel this. When you go home, you feel like the heat radiating from your body still, you know, even after you go home. Like dang, I didn't really roll that hard. Cause it doesn't feel like it's that hard because it was so like fun, you know?

• 1:26:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, I roll hard.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, every single time. Yeah.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  That's the genius behind it. Anyway, if you want help with your performance.

• 1:27:07Jocko Willink?

  Was that just a 14, a 20 minute talk about onnit.com slash Jocko?

• 1:27:13Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:27:14Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit of some digression, but these are all helpful things though.

• 1:27:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they are.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  Very helpful. On it, that's just going to improve your performance straight up.

• 1:27:22Jocko Willink?

  Indeed.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  If you want to improve performance, which we do, is another one. I'm gonna go into it. We got some time. So I'm filling up water. You know, you know the big gallons of water?

• 1:27:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the five gallons.

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  So I go fill up, I got four of them. So I put them in the back of my car in the backseat.

• 1:27:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  So when I bring them from the, the water filler thing to my car, I'm grabbing them both and I'm walking across the street.

• 1:27:48Jocko Willink?

  You had two or you had four?

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  I had four, but two at a time. I feel two because it's two like things, whatever. So they're they're full. I'm walking across the street to, you know, not the street, the parking lot, to my car to put them in. And I'm like, this isn't even hard, but they look kind of big, you know? And I'm like, this isn't even hard. It's like, I'm not like stiff. It's not like I'm warmed up, ready to get after it, you know? I'm like, okay, but then you're walking there at handles, so it shouldn't be that hard for someone my weight and whatever. So I get to the car and I put them in, but I'm like, hey, I need more room to put the other two. So I don't just kind of lug them in all perfect for, I gotta like stretch and put these, you know, they're five pound jugs. So you gotta stretch these awkward position, but I did it kind of no problem.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  If I were in, I've been at times where I'm not in that good a shape. My joints are off, bro. I would have, I would have hurt myself. That's how you hurt your back.

• 1:28:39Jocko Willink?

  That is, that is how people hurt their back doing the dumb stuff because they're not, they're not in good shape.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's a lot of times, that's really what it is, is because you're just, your body's not used to like moving all of a sudden like that. But if it is, and you've got the krill oil going, that's the kind of things you can do, almost like a superpower. Anyway, if you want these amazing supplements, and we know they're the best ones because we all know that, on it dot com slash Jaco, 10% off. Support yourself. Support everyone. Anyway, and if you shop at Amazon, this is a good way to support.

• 1:29:13Jocko Willink?

  And you know you shop at Amazon.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  Oh, you know it. Oh, yeah. Big time. Getting books, getting whatever. Click through the website. Again, this is to support. So go to Jaco podcast.com, little banner, Amazon, shop Amazon banner over there on the side. Click on that, then do your shopping. Can support.

• 1:29:31Jocko Willink?

  What if you don't think that's a big deal? And you're like, ah, you know what? That's probably not that big of a deal. I'm just gonna go right to Amazon without clicking through.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Hey, that, that is cool. To me, that, that's cool. But if you do want to support, but you still think, yeah, that's not that big of a deal. Maybe I'll support another way or something like that. That, that's cool, but it's not true. That is a big deal.

• 1:29:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  It's a small action, so it may not seem like a bit. It's like, oh, just click through and that's kind of it. But it's a big deal.

• 1:29:56Jocko Willink?

  And it doesn't cost you anything.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  Doesn't cost you anything. Two seconds.

• 1:29:59Jocko Willink?

  And apparently, Amazon's got some money that they want to give to us as long as you click through.

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. They're like, basically, the attitude is from Amazon is that's a win-win. They're like, hey, these, you know, shoppers are coming to buy stuff from us through Jocko Podcast?

• 1:30:16Jocko Willink?

  Alright, cool, cool.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  Then that's good for us.

• 1:30:18Jocko Willink?

  Take care of those guys.

• 1:30:18Speaker 01

  Exactly right. So it's like a circle, triangle, three people, three parties, triangle of support.

• 1:30:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:25Speaker 01

  Then you get, you know, your stuff. If you got Amazon Prime, two days later, one day, sometimes same day. Anyway, Amazon click through. That's a good way to support.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  And then you can subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play. And various others. Uh, outlets.

• 1:30:44Jocko Willink?

  And somebody posted that you can, if you have Alexa, do you know what Alexa is?

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  It's Amazon Echo.

• 1:30:49Jocko Willink?

  It's Amazon Echo.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  Her name is Alexa.

• 1:30:52Jocko Willink?

  And if you have that.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  I do.

• 1:30:54Jocko Willink?

  You, do you know that you can say, Alexa, play Jocko podcast? And then it says back to you, you want to hear the show Jocko? Because they don't, they think that podcasts isn't part of the name because it's artificial intelligence.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 1:31:10Jocko Willink?

  So just you want to hear the show Jocko and you say yes, and then it says, I'm finding the latest episode and then it plays Jocko podcast.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  Podcast is kind of like a, like a, um.

• 1:31:19Jocko Willink?

  It'd be saying like, I want to watch, uh, Restrepo movie.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Right. Play the song.

• 1:31:26Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  This, but then that song is called Love Song or something like this. Yeah.

• 1:31:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, the song would probably be called Destroy Planet Earth.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  Right. In your case, for sure, for sure. Or something like this. Yeah, that thing, that thing is kind of cool. Try, try, ask it. Do you have one?

• 1:31:38Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  Okay, so ask it, what's one plus one? There he's, she's gonna say, the sum of one plus one is two, but I think you already knew that.

• 1:31:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  So they, you know, he knows the little things. Anyway, yeah, that's a good one. Anyway, subscribe to, uh, the podcast on iTunes and all the various outlets. Um, if you're not into iTunes specifically, um, and on YouTube, we do have a YouTube channel. Put some videos on there. Constantly working on these video situations. Some take longer, you know, more, more work and whatever time, um, than others. But they're out there. They're doing it. Jocko McNuggets, small little clips of the words, the advice.

• 1:32:21Speaker 01

  And philosophies of Jocko.

• 1:32:22Jocko Willink?

  The also the Ted Talk that I did, it is on YouTube right now.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:26Jocko Willink?

  So you can Google Ted, Jocko Willink Ted Talk or something like that.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:30Jocko Willink?

  You'll get to see it.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  It's good.

• 1:32:32Jocko Willink?

  I talked about, uh, you know, war and stuff like that.

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  A little concept called extreme ownership.

• 1:32:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Nailed it. It's actually good like that. That's the, um, one where you know how you got, you gotta condense it down. Obviously, you know, like a lot.

• 1:32:48Jocko Willink?

  Distill it down.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a good distillation. That was good.

• 1:32:52Jocko Willink?

  Points.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Real good.

• 1:32:54Jocko Willink?

  12 minutes, not long.

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  There you go. Yep. YouTube. But yeah, subscribe to the, to the, you know, the YouTube channel. We got one of those. Um, also Jocko has a store called Jocko Store, URL jockostore.com. If you're into shirts, discipline equals freedom. Guy on Twitter was like, I like the OG discipline equals freedom.

• 1:33:13Speaker 01

  There's only one version of the business, but the thing is.

• 1:33:16Jocko Willink?

  Factually, it is OG.

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. OG, the original, the original. Discipline equals freedom. Super simple, to the point, if you will. Good quality. I, you know, made sure that they were good quality shirts. Um, not the kind you just give away at the ballpark, you know, that kind.

• 1:33:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You used to talk about those shirts that you give away at the ballpark. You haven't mentioned that in a while.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:36Jocko Willink?

  I'm glad you're back. They're not that. Your OG examples. I like that.

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  It's true, Rob, because that one's cool because, ooh, free stuff. But when you get home, you don't wear it.

• 1:33:44Jocko Willink?

  No, because it sucks.

• 1:33:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not good. It's not wearable. You know that one where you're like, your friend gives you the free shirt or like, what I did for you? And then you're like, you wear it and it's like, it doesn't fit good or whatever. These ones like fit good. They're solid. In fact, this guy Ryan, I know, he said, it's my favorite shirt to wear because it makes me look good, like it fits, you know?

• 1:34:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't observe stuff like that.

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  Anyway, uh, many never make them, made them.

• 1:34:12Jocko Willink?

  I'm here to win.

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. You don't care what you look like.

• 1:34:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. But yeah, they're good. Solid. Look at them. I'm not saying buy a shirt. Just go to the jockostore.com. Go there. Look at the shirts. You like the shirts? You want to represent? You want to support? Get a shirt. Get a rash guard. Got some good reviews on the rash guard. Multiple, uh, instances of increasing performance and results with the rash guard.

• 1:34:41Jocko Willink?

  Proven.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  And against Jocko's philosophy, hey, man, they look good, you know? If you care, you know that you want to look good, hey, man, there's that element as well, layers.

• 1:34:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm more concerned about the performance than the looks.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:34:54Jocko Willink?

  So I'll take that nineteen percent.

• 1:34:55Speaker 01

  Minimum.

• 1:34:57Jocko Willink?

  Bonus.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:58Jocko Willink?

  You look good to go, I guess.

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:00Jocko Willink?

  If you're into that kind of thing.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  Sure. Uh, patches. The Velcro ones is a regular kind, too. Um, but the Velcro one with the, the, the, what do you call the color? Right, the regulation, yeah, the one you can wear. I saw, um, shoot, I forget his name on Twitter, he showed me his patch like collections, the Velcro, you know? Discipline equals freedom was all up in there, it was good, looked real good. And this one is a big one to support yourself, psychological warfare. And this is literal, like, support.

• 1:35:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is actual.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Like a spot.

• 1:35:37Jocko Willink?

  The, the feedback from everyone out there on psychological warfare, it's one hundred percent effective.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  See, bro, I told you.

• 1:35:49Jocko Willink?

  Listen to the track, Sugar Coated Lies.

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:35:53Jocko Willink?

  If you listen to that track, you could be in Krispy Kreme donuts after not eating for three days. And you will go in there, you listen to that track, you will not eat a donut.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:36:03Jocko Willink?

  You will not.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's true, it's absolutely true, and it, the wake up thing.

• 1:36:09Jocko Willink?

  The wake up, I was gonna say, the wake up, you will get out of bed.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:13Jocko Willink?

  Because, because you, this is the thing, you know what's being told to you?

• 1:36:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:36:17Jocko Willink?

  Is true.

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:36:19Jocko Willink?

  You know it's true.

• 1:36:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:36:21Jocko Willink?

  You, you, part of your brain is saying, you know what, it's not true.

• 1:36:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:24Jocko Willink?

  I don't need to get up right now, I mean, one donut's not gonna kill me. Actually, it is gonna kill you.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:36:30Jocko Willink?

  So you're not gonna eat it.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:32Jocko Willink?

  So, psychological warfare.

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  That's a good one.

• 1:36:35Jocko Willink?

  By the way.

• 1:36:37Jocko Willink?

  I listened to it.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Jocko listening to yourself.

• 1:36:41Jocko Willink?

  Sometime, well, you know, I was kind of like, wait, do I actually listen to this now? Now I listen to it.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  Bro, it it could actually, in a way, be more effective for you because it's really you talking to yourself.

• 1:36:50Jocko Willink?

  Actually, me.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:53Speaker 01

  It's like you talking to yourself. It's like your brain is like the voice in your head. It's true. And this is a good one. Just like the krill oil and just like the the on it stuff. It's not like, like, get up and get after it. Like, it's not like. Wait, let me explain what it is. It's these tracks on an album you can buy from iTunes.

• 1:37:11Jocko Willink?

  And it's on Amazon, it's on other resources.

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  Yes, Amazon Music.

• 1:37:14Jocko Willink?

  Find it, yeah.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's you can just purchase these MP3 tracks. You can play on your phone before you're about to be when you're having moments of weakness. You're gonna skip the workout because you don't feel like it. Or you're gonna skip, you're gonna mess up your diet because you're too hungry and it looks so delicious. Or you want to press snooze on the thing, you can put it as your alarm or whatever. You buy these tracks and they're for different situations. And it'll give you a little spot. We'll say that Jocko will be there to give you a little spot. Anyway.

• 1:37:42Jocko Willink?

  Mental, a mental spot.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, psychological.

• 1:37:45Jocko Willink?

  Psychological.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  It'll fight the urge to be a slacker.

• 1:37:49Jocko Willink?

  Crush.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  Quitter. But it's good because it's not like the get up and get out. It scares you out of bed, so you'll get out of bed. It's not that.

• 1:37:56Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  It's like.

• 1:37:56Jocko Willink?

  It's psychological warfare.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  It tells your mind to think the certain way, you know, so it's really you doing it. It's like.

• 1:38:02Jocko Willink?

  It's not a kinetic strike. It's psychological warfare, which is actually more effective.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you're doing it.

• 1:38:10Speaker 01

  It's like the cortisone shot versus the krill oil.

• 1:38:13Jocko Willink?

  We prefer to let our body do the work.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly right.

• 1:38:19Jocko Willink?

  And we prefer to let our mind do the work. If you're getting out of bed because someone's yelling out at you, okay, well, that's okay. But it's better if it's you that gets yourself out of bed because you use psychological warfare on yourself.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Yep, because you did, you did good things with the information that you were presented with. It's good. And I'll add, I'll give it to you. I'm gonna pat you on the back. You know, you can pat Jocko on the back. Number, it was psychological warfare was number one.

• 1:38:45Jocko Willink?

  Is it still number one?

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  On iTunes since day one.

• 1:38:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh. Well, hey, don't, don't pat me on the back. Thank you, everyone that's gone and bought Psychological Warfare. Thank you.

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:55Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully, but you gotta admit, it's like you, you know, you did that thing.

• 1:39:00Jocko Willink?

  Well, no, actually, you got to admit that if no one wanted to hear it and wanted to get after it, then I would be

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:39:06Jocko Willink?

  Talking to myself.

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  So it's like, we're like a little group of like, this is a good, a good thing we're doing there, you know? Get everybody out of bed and stop eating donuts.

• 1:39:14Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of good things.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  There it is.

• 1:39:16Jocko Willink?

  If you want some Jocka White Tea.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:39:19Jocko Willink?

  It's in stock. It's on Amazon. If you're in America, get it on Amazon. If you're in a foreign country, go to eBay, Pearl Resourcing, it's the official listing, you can get it there. You, you already know what, what the tea is gonna do for you. You already know that. You are weak, you will become strong. You are stupid, you're gonna become smart. You are lazy, you're gonna become aggressive. Just gonna solve all your problems.

• 1:39:50Jocko Willink?

  But you know what? That's the side effect, because it also just tastes good. So which ones are you gonna go? And I'll tell you what, right now,

• 1:39:59Jocko Willink?

  I don't, we, we are assessing and likely going to put Jocka White Tea in cans.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  Oh, right, like the

• 1:40:11Jocko Willink?

  Like an energy drink.

• 1:40:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:40:13Jocko Willink?

  But you know, an energy drink doesn't help you?

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Right, right. It's just whack.

• 1:40:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is boom. Oh, you're in 7-Eleven?

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  Good stuff.

• 1:40:21Jocko Willink?

  Like sugar, caffeine, candy, negativity.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  Stimulus.

• 1:40:25Jocko Willink?

  Or boom, here you go. Is there caffeine in Jocka White Tea? Yes, there is.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, a little bit.

• 1:40:30Jocko Willink?

  A little bit.

• 1:40:31Speaker 01

  But it's good for you, actually, a little bit.

• 1:40:32Jocko Willink?

  Micro, exactly. Thank you, Echo. Microdose. Not gonna get you all jittery. So, Jocka White Tea, you can get it on Amazon. When you're on Amazon, you can pick up the book Extreme Ownership by me and my brother Leif Babbin and

• 1:40:51Jocko Willink?

  What's cool is our company, Echelon Front, we work with a bunch of different kinds of companies, leadership and management consulting, and it's always cool to see and hear about how the book spreads through those companies. Somebody, you know, somebody heard about it. Somebody heard me on Tim Ferriss, or somebody heard me on Joe Rogan, or somebody heard me on this podcast. And it gets in there and a guy, it spreads. It just spreads. You know, a guy buys it for his team, and then he buys it for, you know, the CEO, gives him a gift, and the CEO buys it for everyone. So it's really cool to see that. And it's cool to see how it helps companies align their culture

• 1:41:30Jocko Willink?

  and align their leadership teams. So go out, get it for the people you work with. Give them the tools to lead. And, you know, the deal is, you make a little investment, get in the book. It's 20 bucks, right? You give that book to your key team members, it's going to make your life easier. Return on investment, good to go. And while you're doing that, you can get this book, another book right here. It's, um, it's called Way of the Warrior Kid. And this is the deal. This is what we have to watch out for. Order it now. Why order it now if you're not going to get

• 1:42:12Jocko Willink?

  it until May 2nd? That's when it comes out. Here's why. If we don't order it now, it's going to happen, the same thing happened with Jocka White Tea. The people that are printing is going to like, oh, no one's ordering it. So we're not going to, you know, we'll print 12 copies. The day it comes out, we're going to get a lot of orders and everyone's going to have to sit around and wait for the thing to be printed. So what we want to do is give them the indication that, yes, book is coming out. We don't want to end up with Jocka White Tea style Baron Armageddon on our hands with the book. And I'll tell you, it is, you know, it's a book. It's a kid's book, admittedly. But I'm going to tell you, Uncle Jake, who's in the book, who teaches his nephew

• 1:42:54Jocko Willink?

  how to get after it, Uncle Jake's got some lessons for everybody about discipline, about working out, about overcoming fear, about diet, and exercise, and life.

• 1:43:12Jocko Willink?

  It's a book about life and

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  Wait, how did you get that? I know you're the author, but you got a physical copy right now.

• 1:43:20Jocko Willink?

  Physical copy that I'm holding in my hands right now is called a galley. And they give you, it's so that you can see and make sure and you can go through it and correct it.

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  Like a final edit.

• 1:43:30Jocko Willink?

  It's like a final edit.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:31Jocko Willink?

  And this one's pretty good.

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:34Jocko Willink?

  It's pretty close.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Give us a taste.

• 1:43:38Jocko Willink?

  So here we go. So at this point, here's what's going on.

• 1:43:43Jocko Willink?

  At this point, basically, the kid, Mark, he's, like I said, he doesn't know how to do, he can't do any pull ups. Doesn't know his times tables. He's getting picked on at school, doesn't know how to swim.

• 1:43:58Jocko Willink?

  Guess what? He's a 10 year old kid in life. Life is hard. He's realizing that. He's bummed out. He's been sad. His uncle Jake comes to live with him for the summer. His uncle Jake, his uncle Jake used to be in the SEAL teams. He's getting out so he can go to college, but during the summer, he's living with his sister. So now, when Uncle Jake realizes that Mark has all these issues, like I said, what does he say when Mark freaks out and cries and says, I got all these issues? Uncle Jake says, good, we can solve these problems. And then he says, look, you

• 1:44:31Jocko Willink?

  you're not really getting after it. Do you, you need to be, instead of being this kind of wimpy kid over here, you need to be a warrior kid.

• 1:44:41Jocko Willink?

  And Mark sort of, what's a warrior kid? And so at this point, they're, they're talking about, like, do you actually know what a warrior is? And I'll go back to the book right now. So here's Uncle Jake. Do you even know what a warrior is? And Mark says, yes, I mean, I guess I know. A warrior is someone who fights in wars, right? And Uncle Jake says, that is one part, but what else? I'm not sure what else. So do you think that the only way to be a warrior is to fight in wars? And do you think that anyone who fights in wars is a warrior?

• 1:45:25Jocko Willink?

  I guess so.

• 1:45:29Jocko Willink?

  Well, you guessed wrong. There is a lot more to being a warrior than just being in a war. Warriors are people that stand up for themselves. They face challenges. Warriors work hard to achieve goals. They have the discipline to overcome their weaknesses. Warriors are people that constantly try to test and improve themselves. And yes, war is the ultimate test. But not all warriors go to war.

• 1:45:58Jocko Willink?

  And then Mark says, but how can a kid be a warrior?

• 1:46:04Jocko Willink?

  And Uncle Mark says, or Uncle Jake says, by doing everything I just said. A normal kid doesn't push himself. A warrior kid does. A normal kid doesn't work to constantly improve himself. A warrior kid does. I look at all these problems you cried to me about yesterday. A warrior kid wouldn't cry about those problems. A warrior kid would do something about those problems. And then Mark says, do what? Do what? Do whatever it takes. Every problem you have can be overcome. Every one of them. You can't do pull-ups? You work out and get stronger until you can. You don't know your times tables?

• 1:46:48Jocko Willink?

  You study and train your mind until you know them cold. You can't swim? You learn how. You get picked on? You learn how to fight. Fight? I asked. Yes, fight. Just like anything else in the world, there are techniques to fighting. Like learning a sport. And when you know the techniques and practice them, you can defend yourself from anyone.

• 1:47:14Jocko Willink?

  You really think I could learn all that? I know you can. Like I told you last night, I had to transform myself when I got in the Navy. I had to get stronger. I had to learn to fight. I even had to learn to learn. But I did it. And if I did it, so can you.

• 1:47:34Jocko Willink?

  Do you want to? Do you want to overcome all these challenges you face? Of course.

• 1:47:45Jocko Willink?

  And then as they wrap up that conversation, they were out in the park when they're doing that. And Mark says, we walked through the park and back to the house without saying another word. Something had already changed.

• 1:48:00Jocko Willink?

  Sounds like we're about to get after it. So yeah, uh, fun book. Might want to get after it. And also on top of that,

• 1:48:13Jocko Willink?

  the book is coming out May 2nd. That's cool. May 4th and 5th, guess what's going on? The muster right there, Marriott Marquis in New York City, basically two months away from right now. So sign up, book your ticket. Get your hotel room. It's going to be awesome. Leif's going to be there. I'm going to be there, obviously. Leif's going to be there. JP's going to be there. Echo is going to be there. Dave Burke, newest member of Echelon Front, Marine Corps. Boom. Fighter pilot. Boom. Top Gun. Boom. Top Gun instructor. Yeah. And by the way, with all that, he was on the ground in Ramadi with Tasking the Bruiser doing operation after operation after operation as an Anglico team leader. So the guy's out

• 1:48:57Jocko Willink?

  there, Forward Air Control. He's coming on the podcast soon as well. And as just like the first muster, there's not going to be a backstage. There's no green room that we're going to be hiding in. We will be out front. We will be talking to you, discussing things, taking ownerships of the problems that we all have and get them solved. So

• 1:49:21Jocko Willink?

  we will see you there at the muster. Extreme ownership.com. And until we do see you there, we will see you on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram. And maybe we're going to see you on that Facebook. We'll be interacting with all of you. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And to the military men and women that are out there right now in harm's way, putting your life at risk for our great nation. Thank you all for our freedom. And to those that have fallen for the cause of freedom, we will never forget.

• 1:50:13Jocko Willink?

  For the police fighting crime and the firefighters fighting fires and the rest of the first responders out there. Thanks to you all for keeping us safe.

• 1:50:25Jocko Willink?

  And to everyone else out there, thank you for listening and thank you for supporting this podcast and thanks for being here.

• 1:50:38Jocko Willink?

  With us.

• 1:50:41Jocko Willink?

  You. People that we hear from all the time, from all over the world in every walk of life. Thank you for joining us.

• 1:50:54Jocko Willink?

  As we make our way through the world, trying to extract every drop of blood from this life by pushing forward every day with everything that we've got, all of us.

• 1:51:09Jocko Willink?

  And getting after it.

• 1:51:13Jocko Willink?

  So. Until next time.

• 1:51:17Jocko Willink?

  This is Echo and Jocko. Out.