To Struggle Is To Be Alive

Lots of excitement and anticipation about today’s guest. One of the most lauded, celebrated and accomplished athletes on the planet, let me introduce you to the guy who can seemingly run forever: Dean Karnazes. We're talking about a guy TIME magazine named one of the “Top 100 Most Influential People in the World.” Men's Fitness magazine hailed him as one of the fittest men on the planet. An internationally recognized endurance athlete, NY Times bestselling author, in demand public speaker, and successful entrepreneur, Dean has pushed his body, mind and spirit to places most people simply cannot fathom. To give you an idea of what Dean is all about, let's briefly run through a few of his ridiculous mind-bending running accomplishments: * Ran 350 miles in under 81 hours foregoing sleep for 3 days; * Ran a marathon in each of the 50 states in 50 consecutive days; * On 11 occasions, ran a 200 mile relay race solo, racing alongside teams of 12; * Won the 4 Desert Race Series in 2008, traversing the Gobi, Antacara, Sahara and Antarctica; * Won the Badwater 135 in 2004 and has run this race 10 times; * Ran 148 miles on a treadmill in 24 hours; and * Ran 3000 miles across the US from Disneyland to NYC in 75 days, running 40-50 miles / day Given all of these feats of astounding endurance and more, Dean is widely lauded as one of the greatest athletes of our time — an accolade deserved if you ask me. But it wasn't alway this way. After success on the track in high school, Dean put running in his rear view in favor of business. But by age 30, he found himself at a spiritual crossroads. Dissatisfied with the successful, comfortable life he had built for himself, he yearned for something more. He yearned for challenge. He yearned for discomfort. He yearned for struggle. Because to struggle is to be alive. After a now famous drunken all night run following his 30th birthday party, the rest is well documented running history. Dean chronicles his discovery and love of running in his bestselling memoir Ultramarathon Man*– a must read for anyone who loves an inspirational story of adversity and personal triumph — and his journey continues in his follow up tomes 50/50*, and Run!* Not enough? Dean is currently hard at work on a new book – a novelized look at the amazing life of Pheidippedes, the legendary Greek who ran from Marathon to Athens to deliver news of a military victory against the Persians, a subject close to Dean’s heart given his Greek heritage. How does Dean do it? Some chalk it up to genetics – a freakishly high lactate threshold; an unnaturally high tolerance for pain; and an unusual ability to tolerate sleep deprivation Setting aside debate on whether these mental and physiological data points are earned or inherited, I feel compelled to say that the answer to this question is far more co... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:06Rich Roll?

  Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, episode 115 with Dean Karnazes.

• 1:24Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Thank you for joining me. This is my podcast. My name is Rich Roll, and I'm the guy behind the mic trying to get the best out of my guests to help you guys take your life experience next level. Thanks for listening. Thanks for spreading the word. Thanks for sharing the show on all your social networks, especially Instagram, my favorite. Thank you for subscribing to my newsletter at richroll.com. And thank you for supporting the show by clicking through the Amazon banner at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. It's so easy. It's free. It doesn't take any time. Come on, you guys. If you're not doing it, get on it, please. If you're not already, just do me that one favor. I appreciate it. Thanks so much.

• 2:07Rich Roll?

  Uh, here's what's what. Each week I sit down with the best and the brightest people I can find, forward-thinking, paradigm-busting minds, I convince to sit down with me to share their experience, their knowledge, their insights, all so I can do what I can to help all of you guys discover, uncover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. It's a special week. We just celebrated the show's two-year anniversary and we just surpassed the four million download milestone. Four million downloads. You know what? I don't even know what to say. I'm elated, I'm happy, I'm grateful, and I'm so humbled.

• 2:49Rich Roll?

  I'm humbled more than you know. If you've been with me since the beginning, you know the, uh, the very crude, uh, start that this show had. I mean, I, I began this thing out in a yurt on the North Shore of Kauai when my family was living there on an organic farm. It was just a creative experiment, a creative exercise. I had no attachment to the result. My expectations for all of this were zero, and I just felt this urge to continue the conversation that, that my book Finding Ultra had started by sharing some of the people, some of the information, some of the inspiration and tools that have been so helpful to me along this path. And I gotta say, I'm just, I'm blown away by what the show has become, and I can't thank

• 3:31Rich Roll?

  all of you enough for all the passion, the support, and for just, you know, well, just being an incredible audience. And all I can say is that I promise to keep bidding, but get, keep getting better at this, like my diction. I promise to keep upping my game, and I will do my best to keep bringing you the best people and the best information that I can find. Anyway, just a very long-winded way of saying thank you guys for being awesome.

• 4:01Rich Roll?

  Before we get into today's guest, an exciting guest at that, I wanted to briefly mention that we're running a big sale on all our products at richroll.com, $10 off my Repair Recovery Formula, $10 off all our t-shirts, and we have an awesome new design. It's the Peace and Plants theme. If you saw my Instagram picture, pretty cool t-shirt to rock your affiliation with the show. We got it in white, we got it in blue, we got it in women's, we got it in men's. So, check all that stuff out. We also are running a two-for-one sale on the B12 product. I know there's a lot of Black Friday craziness out there. My buddies at No Meat Athlete are running a campaign on a big bundle of products of which I contributed to. I can give you a link for that in the show notes

• 4:42Rich Roll?

  to this show. It's marked down from like 500 bucks to 97 or something like that. Anyway, check the show notes for links. And if you want to be in the know on all this kind of sales stuff, just make sure you subscribe to my newsletter. That's the easiest way to find out. And this sale that we're running is running for a full three weeks. It's going through December 20th. So, it's a great way to pick up some cheap, cool gifts for the holidays. Boom, we're done, we're out of here. Okay. Lots of excitement and anticipation about today's guest. And this interview has been a long time in the making, but it's finally here. Dean Karnazes. Dean Karnazes. That's right, people. One of the most lauded

• 5:26Rich Roll?

  and celebrated and accomplished ultra runners, or just make that athlete in any discipline to ever walk the planet. That guy. The guy who can seemingly run forever. He's today's guest. If you've never heard of Dean, well, he's a public speaker, he's a bestselling author, he's a world-renowned athlete, he's an entrepreneur. He's a guy that Time Magazine named as one of the top 100 most influential people in the world. Men's Fitness has hailed him as one of the fittest men on the planet. He's an internationally recognized endurance athlete and a New York Times bestselling author. This is a guy who has pushed his body and his mind to limits that most people out there, the average human being, can barely

• 6:09Rich Roll?

  conceptualize, let alone achieve on their own. So, just to give you a better grip on what he's all about, what he's done, let's run through a quick... Look at some of his ridiculous, mind-bending running accomplishments. In 2005, he ran 350 miles in under 81 hours foregoing sleep for three days. What? In 2006, he ran a marathon in each of the 50 states in 50 consecutive days. Whoa. On 11 occasions, he has run a 200-mile relay race solo, racing alongside teams of 12. He's won the Ford Desert Race Series in 2008, victoriously running across the Gobi, the Antikara, the Sahara, and the Antarctica deserts.

• 6:54Rich Roll?

  Yes, Antarctica, the portion that they run is indeed a desert. He did that all in the 2008 calendar year. In 2004, he won the Badwater 135. You've heard me talk about this race quite a bit on the podcast, most recently with David Clark and also with Josh Spector. Dean's a guy who's run the Badwater 135 race 10 times, and I had the honor of crewing for him on his 10th attempt, and we talk a lot about that today in the podcast. Dean has also run 148 miles on a treadmill in 24 hours, and he ran 3,000 miles across the US from Disneyland to New York City in 75 days. How do you do it in 75 days?

• 7:36Rich Roll?

  Well, you have to run 40 to 50 miles a day, and Dean did that back in 2011. So now you get the idea. Given all of these feats of astounding endurance and more, Dean is widely lauded, and rightfully so, in my opinion, as one of the greatest athletes of our time. But it wasn't always this way for Dean. After success on the track in high school, Dean hung up the shoes. He put running in his rearview in favor of school and business and other pursuits in his life, but by age 30, he found himself at a spiritual crossroads, which is something that I identify with. Dissatisfied with the successful, comfortable life that he'd built for himself, he just yearned for something more. He yearned for a challenge.

• 8:21Rich Roll?

  He yearned for discomfort. He yearned for struggle, because to struggle is to be alive.

• 8:30Rich Roll?

  After a now famous drunken all-night run following his 30th birthday party at a bar in San Francisco called Paragon, which just so happened to be my favorite bar when I lived in San Francisco, long story, we talk about this a little bit too during our conversation. Anyway, the rest is well documented running history. Dean chronicles his discovery and his love of running in his bestselling memoir Ultra Marathon Man, which is, you know, that's a must read for anyone who loves an inspirational story of adversity and personal triumph. And Dean's journey, he continues to chronicle his journey in his follow-up books, 50/50 and Run. And he's currently hard at work on a new book, something a little bit different. It's a novelized look at the amazing life of Fidipides,

• 9:15Rich Roll?

  the legendary Greek who ran from Marathon to Athens to deliver news of a military victory against the Persians. And it's a guy and a subject close to Dean's heart, given his Greek heritage. So how does he do it? Some chalk it up to genetics. Well, he's just a guy with a freakishly high lactate threshold. He's got an unnaturally high tolerance for pain, or an unusual ability to tolerate sleep deprivation. And look, I mean, setting aside debate on whether these mental and physiological data points are earned or inherited, I feel compelled to say that the answer to this question is far more complex and far more interesting.

• 9:59Rich Roll?

  I first met Dean very briefly back at a trade show, 2011, I believe. And in 2012, he was gracious enough to give me a very kind blurb endorsement for my book, Finding Ultra. But I can't honestly say that I really knew the guy. And then, out of the blue, he sent me a short cryptic email in early 2013. And all it said was, quote, "Any desire to spend a few relaxing days out in Death Valley this summer?"

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  My response was something like, "Are you asking me what I think you're asking me?" And indeed, it was. It was a formal invitation from Dean to support his 10th attempt at Badwater, to join his crew. And that was simply an offer I could not refuse. Beyond the honor, it was just an extraordinary experience. And I recount much of it in my podcast chat with Josh Spektor last year. That was episode 40, if you want to go back and listen to that. And I have to say, I was hit over my head on that one. I hadn't been training enough at the time, and I was very intimidated. But I'm so grateful to have had that experience. And myself, along with Jason Coop, and Brandon Fries, and Nathan Pierbold, who rounded out

• 11:10Rich Roll?

  Dean's crew, we collectively spent 24 hours pacing him across Death Valley, the hottest place on earth, and over these mountain passes, and up the Whitney portals to 8,000 feet. And for me, the highlight was running alongside Dean through a huge portion of the night for many, many hours, until daybreak. And that was a period of time in which I had the opportunity to really connect with Dean, to talk to him at length about running, about writing, and just about life. And that's when I felt I really got to know the guy for the first time. And I saw Dean sail. I saw him struggle. I saw how he handled incredible

• 11:55Rich Roll?

  duress and extraordinary suffering in temperatures upwards of 130 degrees. I saw how patience and experience and sheer determination got him through tough spots and ultimately, across the Badwater finish line for the 10th time. I experienced also how he welcomes and navigates his fame and popularity with gentlemanly presence, with grace, with gratitude. And then, the day after the race, I got to spend another two hours alone with him in the car, a long drive with him. And that was another time in which I felt I really got to know him, and know him well. And I consider this man to be one of the great champions of our time. He's a true role model. He's an inspiration to me personally, as well as to millions

• 12:37Rich Roll?

  worldwide. And he's someone I'm lucky to call a mentor and a friend. So what makes Dean Karnaz the most successful runner on earth? Now in his 50s, how has his perspective on nutrition changed? How has his perspective on training changed? After accomplishing so much, what continues to drive him? What gets him out of bed in the morning after he's done so much? How is he able to run such great distances seemingly without fatigue? And how does he balance his running with his philanthropy? With raising kids? With maintaining a healthy marriage? With running a successful business? His countless speaking engagements? His appearances? And his travel commitments? And how does he feel about failure versus success? Well, let's find out.

• 13:22Rich Roll?

  A quick note before getting into it. We recorded this interview in his house in Marin. He was kind enough to host me for the interview. And it just so happened to be on the same day that he had all kinds of construction going on. So if you hear the occasional saw, drill, you know, power drill or hammer in the background, well, we're just gonna have to live with it. It's just part of the ambiance.

• 13:53Rich Roll?

  So you've been traveling a lot. What's going on?

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Just a lot of global travel. And it's all good. I mean, just sponsorship obligations, you know, speaking obligations. You know, it's all work-based, but there's a lot of running involved.

• 14:07Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And you're getting ready to go to the New York Marathon, right?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Going back to New York City, yeah. And I just did this race called the Spartathlon, which is a 153-mile race from Athens to Sparta. So I'm writing a book about Vedipatis in the original marathon. And I tried to eat only the foods that he ate during this race. So it's this stuff called pastelly. It's kind of a, it's mashed sesame seed and honey, figs, olives, cured meat, and nuts.

• 14:41Rich Roll?

  How did that go?

• 14:42Speaker 01

  And water. No, no electrolyte replenishment. It was good for about the first 80 miles. And then I couldn't, literally for the last 70 miles, all I had was water. For 70 miles, yeah.

• 14:54Rich Roll?

  Just couldn't hold it down anymore?

• 14:55Speaker 01

  I just, I was so over the Greek diet. Yeah, it was, even though I trained with this stuff. I'd never trained, you know, going beyond 50 miles with it. And it was just, yeah, just a little too much for my, you know, my stomach.

• 15:08Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. So when, uh, when I was crewing you at Badwater, I had the, the good fortune of, of basically being by your side throughout most of the night. You know, the night running. And we had, I don't know if you remember, but we had a really long talk about, uh, your interest in Greece and Fidipides and this book that you're working on. Which is fascinating because I, I didn't know, you know, much about the history of Fidipides and, and how that kind of dovetails into your Greek ancestry. I mean, your name is Constantine, right? That's your birth name, right? So this is a going home for you.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, Constantine Nicholas Carnassus. And the, uh, the route of the Spartathlon, um, is, goes right through a village my family's from, my father's family's from. So it's, you know, right where my heritage and my roots are. And, you know, the, the, the marathon legend is that this guy ran from the battlefield of Marathon to the Acropolis. And, you know, which is, you know, 26 miles, 26.2, and then, you know, proclaimed, uh, Greek victory over the Persians. And then he died. But the, the real story is that they dispatched this runner, uh, from Athens to Sparta to recruit the Spartans. You know, the Spartans were known as, um, you know, fierce warriors. If you've seen the movie 300, you know, you know, we are Sparta.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  So, uh, this, you know, Fidipides ran an ultra marathon, 153 miles. And this, uh, this Spartathlon, uh, follows the footsteps that he, uh, you know, of his path.

• 16:35Rich Roll?

  And what's really interesting is that these ultra marathoners, I mean, he was, he was one of many, right? They were like sort of the heroes because that was how they relied on communicating with each other over great distances.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  That was the Greek kind of, you know, that was the internet back then, the footed version. I mean, that was how they, uh, they gathered intelligence and communicated with, um, outlined city-states is they, uh, they sent these foot warriors, these messengers, and they're called all-day runners. They're professional runners and, you know, legend has it, they could outrun a horse because of the terrain. I mean, I saw some of the terrain in Greece. It's very mountainous, very hilly, uh, very technical. And these guys could just, you know, outrun a horse.

• 17:17Rich Roll?

  And that gives them a strategic advantage militarily.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yep, that's exactly what it was. And, you know, their endurance was quite remarkable. I mean, you know, the, in, in the ancient writing, Fidipides was able to leave in the morning and arrive in Sparta before sunset the next day. So, sub thirty-six hours.

• 17:37Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the Spartathlon is a very rigid cutoff of thirty-six hours. I mean, that, that's it.

• 17:43Rich Roll?

  For that reason.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Yep, and very, very tight, you know, cutoffs for each of the exchanges. So, you've got to be at mile fifty-one within nine and a half hours. And a lot of, you know, only about a third of the people that attempted actually finished the race.

• 17:59Rich Roll?

  Interesting. How many people are in that field?

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Uh, this year, I think they let in five hundred people. And this year, I think four hundred and seventy-five showed up at the starting line.

• 18:08Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh. And is that a qualifying process, kind of like Badwater, where you, you have to fill out like a college application to get in? I mean, what are the requirements?

• 18:16Speaker 01

  It's the same sort of rig and roll. Yeah, very elite field, kind of the most elite field of ultra marathoners. And same sort of thing, you know, you need a qualifying race, you need to submit your resume, and they kind of evaluate and kind of pick the top five hundred.

• 18:31Rich Roll?

  Interesting. And as, as far as this book is concerned, I mean, I think when we were talking, you were saying it's sort of a, a novelized version of this historical account. Is that still what the book is?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  You know, they call it faction, the genre, which is, you know, historical fiction. So, it's going to be based on as much history, you know, that I can gather. I'm working with a guy named Paul Cartledge, who's the foremost authority on ancient Greek culture. He's a professor at Cambridge University. And, you know, a lot of the record is, is fuzzy. I mean, it was four ninety BCE, so it was, you know, it was five hundred years before Christ. And we know even the story around Christ is kind of fuzzy, and this is even a little more diluted, so.

• 19:17Rich Roll?

  I mean, how do they find out anything? Like, what, what is he relying on to piece this together about what was actually going on?

• 19:25Speaker 01

  There are ancient Greek records and you know, some of the writing about Phidippides, the most clearest writing was 50 years after the battle. So you know, some time had elapsed. And then it wasn't for 500 years after the invasion of Marathon by the Persians, that someone wrote of this guy running the 26.2 miles. And they didn't even refer to him as Phidippides. So you know, the legend and the reality are two different things. I mean, the guy who ran from Marathon to the Acropolis probably wasn't Phidippides. And you know, everyone attributes it to him, but it was probably someone else.

• 20:01Rich Roll?

  Right. And were they running barefoot? Like what kind of footwear do they know?

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were most likely running barefoot. I mean, they had some primitive sandals they found, but they said most of these guys probably ran barefoot. And the other thing with Phidippides is he ran in full battle armorment. So he had a metal breastplate and he had greaves on his legs. And you know, the heat in Greece at that time of year is intense.

• 20:28Rich Roll?

  What about like, I can't even imagine like the rashes he must have had. I mean, it's not like he had Vaseline or anything like that, or crazy glue for his, you know, blisters.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  No, and you know, even like I said, getting water along the way. I mean, he had a goat skin bladder most likely for water. And there's you know, rivers and streams you'd have to gather water out of. And you know, how much food could a guy like that carry? I mean, he didn't have a hydration pack, you know, he didn't have all the sophisticated stuff we have these days. To cover that distance in that terrain, you know, in that time is phenomenal.

• 20:59Rich Roll?

  But you weren't, you didn't run the Spartathlon in the garb of Phidippides?

• 21:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 21:05Rich Roll?

  Because I saw that picture on Facebook of you running in traditional Greek garb, like a Halloween costume or something.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Well, you know, there was a marathon, a San Jose marathon on Halloween day. And so I ran in that costume and I ran barefoot.

• 21:19Rich Roll?

  Oh, you ran barefoot, wow, last year.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  It was a few years ago. I couldn't walk for a few weeks afterward. It wasn't even the muscles, the feet were just destroyed. And yeah, that was one and done.

• 21:33Rich Roll?

  Right, cool. And how far along are you in the book? Like, what's the, you know, when do you expect it to come out? Do you have a title for it?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  It's, hopefully it'll release, it's by Rodeo, so the same publisher's Run a World. Hopefully it'll release summer of next year. Yeah, but it's, you know, I just, I keep working with my editor, who's been very, very liberal and very gracious with the time. And, you know, I just said, I can't rush this book. I mean, it's, the story's got to happen. And, you know, the worst thing we can do is try to rush it. You know, he said, well, we're going to be patient, we'll wait for it, and let's make it the best book it can be.

• 22:09Rich Roll?

  And it's a departure from your other books. I mean, all your other books are essentially personal accounts of your adventures. And so this is a new, this is stepping, you know, stepping it up into a new world of writing.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. I mean, it's, you know, never stop exploring, right? It's a new challenge. And that's why I said, I just, I can't, it's so much different than anything I've done before. I can't timestamp this thing, or it's going to turn out that no one's going to like it, including me, yeah.

• 22:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, interesting. So, let's talk about, let's talk about the nutrition a little bit. Everyone wants to know, you know, we got, we got like saws going on back there.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Very authentic, yeah.

• 22:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just adding to the authenticity of this, of this talk. You know, the lore is, oh, you know, Dean orders pizzas when he's out running, and they deliver, you know, deliver them to, you know, wherever he is. And I think, for a long time, that was the truth of your circumstances. You were, you were training so much that you didn't pay much attention to what you were eating, and just kind of, you know, Cheetos, whatever it is. And that's really evolved. I mean, when we were at Badwater, you were kind of relating how you've, you know, adopted a new approach to what you eat, and how that's impacted your training and your racing.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think, you know, the reason my message resonates with people is the same reason yours does is that, you know, people can change. And I think there's a message of hope in that. I mean, yeah, I'll be honest. I mean, I was, I used to eat so much crud. I'll never live down the story, you know, running this 200 mile relay and being stranded.

• 23:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's gonna be on your gravestone.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, stranded out in the middle of nowhere and, you know, no food, no crew, but I had a credit card and a cellphone, so I ordered a pizza. I mean, it seemed logical to me. And, you know, it was just, it was, in my early running career, it was just, it was calories are calories. All calories are crude to equal. You know, you're burning 500 to 700 calories an hour. You know, you're running for 30 hours. You need 25,000 calories. Just get the calories in however you can. And I've gone full circle. I've, I've found that, you know, getting rid of all packaged foods. I mean, you know, Jack LaLanne, who's a guy you know and a guy I respected, a mentor of mine, said, if man makes it, don't eat it. And if it tastes good, spit it out. So I just try to avoid any processed and refined foods these days.

• 24:32Rich Roll?

  I mean, what was the evolution like, though? Did something happen where you said, you know, I'm gonna make this switch? Or is it just a gradual process of trying to improve it, you know, as you age?

• 24:42Speaker 01

  You know, it was a, it was a process more than just during athletic performances. It was during just everyday life, you know, trying to be my best father, you know, have my highest energy levels, you know, reduce the amount of sleep, you know, improve the quality of life. And I just, through a process of elimination, experimentation, I just started eliminating foods that kind of brought me down and adding more of the foods that kind of, you know, stabilized my energy or left me feeling really, really good and healthy. And, you know, kind of through that weeding out process, I got to the diet I'm at right now.

• 25:19Rich Roll?

  Right. And I like how you're not, you're not really dogmatic about it. There's no label to it. I mean, essentially, you know, you eat. Nutrient dense foods and you avoid processed foods. I mean, those are seem to me to be the general thumbnails there. It's not ascribing to any particular, you know, specific like this is my diet.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I'm like you. I read a whole lot and I try a lot of new things. I'm always receptive to trying new things. So, you know, if you had to characterize my diet, you would say it's a hybrid between, you know, paleo, you know, the Mediterranean diet, the zone diet, kind of that forty thirty thirty balance of carbs to protein to fat. You know, pescadarian, as people call it. So, you know, I do eat fish. I love, you know, sustainably caught wild Pacific salmon. So, I eat a lot of salmon. Also, primarily raw. You know, I don't, I don't cook any of my vegetables. I really don't cook a lot of my food.

• 26:23Rich Roll?

  Right. And a lot of bananas, not so many gels.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  A lot of bananas. Well, and you know, and nut butters. I really, I've turned to nut butters for, instead of, you know, gel packs, as far as energy, sustain energy.

• 26:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, healthy fats and very calorie dense when you're out on the road or the trail.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 26:42Rich Roll?

  So, when you go out for a run, like what do you, what do you pack with you? Like, what do you generally bring?

• 26:48Speaker 01

  You know, I'm kind of a minimalist. It's funny. When I run, I don't take in a lot of liquid. I don't sweat a lot and I don't take in a lot of calories. So, I'll typically throw in a couple of nut butters. I've been eating these pastelly bars, which are from Greece. So, they're, it's basically sesame seed and honey. It's really pure, very simple, and a great source of energy. It's got the sesame seed, which has got some fat. And so, it ties you for a long time. And I found it really carries me. It doesn't impact my blood sugar at all. So, very consistent.

• 27:20Rich Roll?

  Low glycemic.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Low glycemic, yeah.

• 27:22Rich Roll?

  And what's a, you know, what does a typical sort of training day or week look like, you know, for you? Like, walk me through, you know, what your general routine is. I mean, I know it's changing a lot because you're traveling all the time.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wish it wasn't typical. I mean, that's, you know, that's the toughest thing with all the travel. It's hard to get in these consistent training blocks. But, you know, if I do have a week where I'm home training. I like to get up early. I like to get up, you know, 3:30, 4:00 in the morning sometimes. And, you know, I like to run a marathon before breakfast if I can. I know it sounds funny, but, um, you know, I like to log 20 to 25 miles in the morning. And, um, this might be at my own pace. So, you know, just running as hard as I can when I feel like running hard and backing off when I don't have the energy. And then, um, I've got my home office set up at, at, um, standing level, so I never sit

• 28:17Speaker 01

  throughout the day. I'm always on my feet. I've got a, um, pull-up bar in my office. And, um, a sit-up mat and I consistently cycle through this, um, series of sit-ups, push-ups, dips. I have TRX, so I do some, um, band training as well. Um, but I do like five or six of these reps throughout the day. And then in the afternoon, um, I'll go for a shorter and a faster run, maybe a, an eight to 12 mile run, like a tempo. Do a lot of hill repeats as well.

• 28:47Rich Roll?

  So do, so two a days, two runs a day is a typical thing for you?

• 28:50Speaker 01

  I like to double up when I can, yeah.

• 28:53Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I find a lot of benefits in doubling up.

• 29:07Rich Roll?

  So a couple of observations. First of all, I feel like we should be standing up.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  I know.

• 29:11Rich Roll?

  We are sitting down right now.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  I'm getting tired just sitting, yeah.

• 29:15Rich Roll?

  Uh, the second observation is that I'm, I'm looking for the listener out there. I'm staring at this incredible view of Mount Tamalpais right in front of me right here. And, uh, we're at the top of a, a hill, kind of overlooking a valley and right at the mountain. And, and I know you can run right outside your door here, right? And access all these trails. I mean, this is just, this is trail running paradise.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  This is, you know, ground zero for trail running, I think, in the entire world. I mean, I've traveled the entire world and I've been to a lot of great places. And I still think that here in Marin is the best place to run in the world. And for a number of reasons. One, you know, you've got San Francisco, so if you want to go into the city, you've got a great outlet. I love the energy of the city. You know, I love the intellectual growth of the city and just the dynamicism. But also, you can run, you know, I can run from here to Seattle, literally. I mean, there's trails that go all the way up the coastline. And it's, you know, I love, you know, I like your area, you know, down in Malibu, Southern California, but I feel like you're, you're always kind of boxed in there.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Like, I mean, if you, you know, the Malibu Hills are great and, you know, the Palisades. You run north, though, and you hit Ventura, and then there's Santa Barbara. So you kind of, you know, you're just kind of boxed in. Where here, it's just still a little, you know, wide open and wild to me.

• 30:34Rich Roll?

  Right. All the way to Seattle, I like that. The other observations have to do with sleep and recovery. And I know, I just read something recently that you wrote about recovery, kind of taking a, you know, a contrarian approach to that. And I'm interested in your perspective. Like, if you're running two a days and you're, I mean, you're literally out there, you know, training, I don't know how many miles a week you're doing right now, but you had times where you're, you've been running 300 miles a week and other times where you're running 65 miles a week. You seem to have avoided injury pretty much throughout your entire career. And as we age, it's all about, like, you need more recovery.

• 31:17Rich Roll?

  You have to really, you know, treat your recovery the same way you treat your training. And it was interesting to, to take your temperature on that. And this, you know, I'm thinking about that blog that you wrote recently.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, you know, I'll preface anything I say by, you know, the caveat, you know, listen to everyone, follow no one. So, you know, although I prescribe some things, those are what works for me. And I always encourage people to find what works best for you, especially when it comes to training and nutrition. We're all different, you know, and we all respond differently to both diet and, and training. But for me, I found, you know, recovery is overrated, especially passive recovery. I think that, you know, the worst thing you can do after a long run or a long race is just passively recover. I think that I've never-

• 32:05Rich Roll?

  What do you mean by that exactly? Like just doing nothing, sitting on the couch?

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Just vegging, sitting on the couch. And I think a lot of people view recovery as just, you know, sitting around with your feet up. And I think active recovery is much more effective. So, I don't, you know, don't go hard if you can't go hard, but I definitely think movement helps recovery. It doesn't hurt it. So, I think that it's counterintuitive to a lot of people, you know, after you run an ultra or even after you run a marathon, you know, to go running the next day. But I'll tell you what, just hobble. You know, just stumble along for two to three miles, get your heart rate up, get your muscles moving and activate it. And it's incredible how much quicker you recover.

• 32:46Rich Roll?

  Interesting. Yeah, I mean, there are studies out there that talk about the body's need to sort of go through that process of being broken down as a prerequisite to getting stronger. And when you kind of try to shortcut that through nutrition or antioxidant supplements or what have you, that you're depriving your body's ability to create that adaptation.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  I couldn't agree more. I've learned that lesson firsthand. I mean, you know, like when I ran 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days, I thought, you know, you need your supplements, you need your masseuse, you need this and that, you know, you need your foam rollers, you need your ice bath.

• 33:35Rich Roll?

  Normatec boots.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And at a point, I said, you know what? You don't need anything but your body. Just let your body be the best body it can be. Let it heal, give it good fuel, and let it do its thing. Get out of the way of all this stuff. And, you know, I ran the 50th marathon in three hours flat.

• 33:56Rich Roll?

  Right, that was your fastest one.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think it says a lot about the body's ability to recover on its own. And, you know, don't put a lot in. You know, obviously, if you're mega dosing with vitamins, we both know, you know, so much of it, it just gets flushed through your system. I mean, it puts an extra load on your kidneys primarily to get rid of this stuff. I say don't do it.

• 34:15Rich Roll?

  Right, just let your bo-- I mean, the body is extraordinary in its ability to adapt to things you you think it can't. You know, I know, when I did the Epic Five, the the Ironman that I felt the best in was the last one. The fourth one was horrible. The fifth one, I couldn't believe that I was able to bounce back and feel that good. Like, that was a that was like a real epiphany for me. Like, my body finally said, oh, I get it. Like, now I finally understand what you're trying to do.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  So, no, I've I've seen that over and over again. And I mean, when I ran across America, you know, I just did nothing but just ran, ate clean food, and and got up, you know, without a lot of sleep and just ran the next day. And I'll never forget how great I felt toward the finish. I mean, running through New Jersey toward, you know, New York City, because I started in L.A., ran to New York City. You know, it was a it was a kind of a cool day, a great day for running, very flat. And, you know, just got up, started running, and my crew came up to me, and they're like, my God, you just ran that marathon in like 3:10. And, you know, they were monitoring my heart rate. They're like, your heart rate

• 35:25Speaker 01

  hasn't even gone up over 100 beats. I mean, it was just, you know, just clicking off a marathon with almost no effort at all. I mean, that's how fine-tuned the body gets and adapted to running.

• 35:36Rich Roll?

  Interesting. Yeah. And at Badwater, when I was there with you, I mean, at the end of that, you were, you know, you were not in good shape, and you were like, oh, man, this might have been the hardest one. Like, I just, you know, I didn't know if I was gonna make it. I don't remember feeling this beat up from this race. And we went back to the hotel, and you wouldn't you wouldn't come to dinner with us. You're like, I always go to dinner, but I just, I can't move. I can't move. Like, I'm so torqued. And then the next morning, you look like a totally different person. You're like, I think I'm gonna go running. And I was like, oh my god, like literally one night of sleep and you had bounced back like from, you know, zero to 80.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I, you know, I'm very fortunate when it comes to recovery. I do have a kind of a magical gift for recovering very quickly. And, you know, with regard to Badwater, I mean, I always say it's like, that is like chasing a windmill. I cannot figure that race out because, I mean, that year you were there with me. I had trained so hard and done so much preparation. I had, you know, probably the worst race I've had the entire time I've been doing it. So I just can't figure out, you know, that formula for getting it right.

• 36:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I think that it brings up the subject of the importance of failures. You know, I think that there's this idea that you're just out killing it. Everything that you've ever tackled, you've succeeded at, and there's a very neatly packaged narrative around that. But that's not the reality. Like, you've had many times where, you know, you struggled mightily, or you didn't finish a race. And I want to talk about, you know, the importance of, the importance of failure in kind of the global, you know, sort of spectrum of personal growth.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think, you know, with regard to running, especially ultra running, you know, taking on, you know, biting off more than you can chew is easy, right? You know, if you run a 50K, sign up for a 50 miler. You know, if you've run a 50 miler, try a 100 miler. So you can always expand the distance. And I think it teaches you a lot of lessons, because there's going to be a point where you, you know, you go over the edge. You find the edge and you go over it and you fail. And I think, personally, I've learned a lot more from my failures than my successes. I mean, you succeed and, you know,

• 37:54Rich Roll?

  What you aren't, yeah.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you kind of high five people like, ah, that was great. You celebrate the moment. You know, when you fail, you go through self-analysis. You really are critical of the situation. You really look and appraise, you know, what went wrong? What could I have done better? You know, what were my shortcomings? And you learn from that.

• 38:12Rich Roll?

  You have to be willing to not just go up to the line of what you think your limitations are, but be willing to risk everything to step over that line.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and adapt to, you know, to failure and learn and move on and celebrate it. You know, I think failure is only a failure if you don't learn from it. You know, if it's just an absolute, you fail and you don't take anything away from that.

• 38:38Rich Roll?

  What race do you think you've learned the most from?

• 38:43Speaker 01

  You know, there's a race called the Ultratrail de Mont Blanc, UTMB in Europe. And, you know, I failed twice before finishing. And I learned a lot from that race. I mean, the first year I went over there, I probably could have finished, but I was hobbling. And I got to mile 90, you know, the other guy I was running with had already DNF'd. And, you know, they were over it and he was crewing for me with his wife and they just wanted to get out of there. And so I just kind of bagged it instead of just, you know, hobbling the last 10 miles, which I could have got to the finish line. So in hindsight, I thought, you know, I should have just finished that first year, then I wouldn't have to go back. But then I, you know, I chased it a second year, tried to use poles.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  And what a mistake, because if you start with poles, running poles, you got to finish with them, you got to carry them the whole time.

• 39:34Rich Roll?

  Is that the rule?

• 39:35Speaker 01

  That's the rule. And, you know, all the top Europeans were using poles, so I thought I'll use poles as well. Well, unless you know how to use poles, they're really a disadvantage. So I was stumbling, I was falling, I couldn't carry these things. And finally, I went over the handlebars, planting a pole, I hit, you know, I kicked the pole and went down pretty hard and thought I cracked my patella, DNF'd. And I went back a third time and said, no poles, just run, and was successful.

• 40:05Rich Roll?

  And when you, when you kind of, you know, look at the stumblings along the way and try to extract, you know, what went wrong, or, you know, how can I do better? I mean, what are the common kind of themes that come up? I mean, is it nutrition? Is it training? Is it strategy? Is it patience? Is it, you know, aggressiveness? Like, can you categorize any of that?

• 40:29Speaker 01

  You know, for me, it's largely, it's sacrifice and learning to say no. Because what I found is that unless you do the training that's necessary, which is very specific training, I mean, the hills over there are really steep. It's not at altitude, doesn't go real high in the sky, but the climbs there are massive and they're steep. So I just had to, I had to spend some time, get over there and train on those trails. And that's what it took. And that means, you know, doing, you know, less sponsorship obligations. I mean, you know, cutting back on your, your income, you know, and which is a pressure for any father because you, you know, you've got bills to pay, you've got kit and mouths to feed.

• 41:08Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  So it meant, you know, if you want to succeed, you're gonna have to sacrifice something. And is it worth the trade-off?

• 41:14Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 41:18Rich Roll?

  It's different when you have kids and this is your profession. You know what I mean? And, and, and there's mouths to feed. So how does that impact your decision-making about travel and what you take on? And, and, you know, to go back to what you were saying, like what you say no to. Because I'm finding, like, you know, I'm trying to learn from your experience, you know, and I'm finding increasingly more and more that it's important to have the discernment as to what to say no to. Because I'm sure people are coming to you all the time. Do this, will you do that, you know? And I would imagine that you have to say no to most of those things, those opportunities, which look good on paper. Like, looks like something that could be fun or something you'd be interested in doing.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Well, and that, that's, you know, that is, you hit a topic that I've been trying to improve. And you're absolutely right. It's, you know, learning to say no is a really important skill. And intuitively, it's not something I'm good at. My hardwiring is just to accept everything. And I've had to learn to say no, and it's still hard for me to do.

• 42:21Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  And it's just, it's, it's a necessary evil. You know, how to graciously say no. And I'm, I still have a lot of room for improvement. You know, I, I certainly admire anyone who wants to kind of follow the same path that we followed because, you know, making a go of it as an endurance athlete is not easy. And there's, there's no infrastructure. I mean, you know, if you play a, a big sport like basketball or baseball or football, you know, there's a pretty clear pathway to success, right? You know, you play in high school, you play... Good ball, you know, you get a scholarship to college. You play good ball in college, you get recruited to the pros. All the infrastructure is there. If you play good in the pros, you get coverage, you get media, you get contracts. Doing what we do, you got to create it all on your own. And that's not easy.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  And you got to be scrappy. And, you know, people say, you know, who do you admire in sports? And I mean, I look to people like, you know, Tony Hawk, the skateboarder. Because, you know, he took skateboarding and made it into something, made it into an industry. And, you know, Laird Hamilton. I mean Laird Hamilton said, you know, I don't like contest surfing. I love riding big waves and damn it, I'm going to make a go of it. And he did. And I really admire that.

• 43:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, they have to create their own paradigm because there is no paradigm. You know, there's no other... I mean, for Laird, there was no sport. He just likes surfing big waves. You know, and he's been able to carve out this niche and, you know, be what he is today. But there was no prior example for him to look to, to do that.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I'm, you know, he blazed his own path. And I mean, I look at races like, you know, say, Western States 100 Mile Endurance Run, which is, you know, the most celebrated, the most recognized, you know, ultra marathon in the world. And, you know, what does the guy who wins get versus the guy who makes it, you know, in 29, 29, 59, right before the cutoff? You know, a great gold buckle, you know?

• 44:21Rich Roll?

  Silver buckle, yeah. Yeah, I mean, people complain about, you know, the purses at Ironman competitions because they're pathetically low. You know, for a professional Ironman triathlete to make a living is extremely difficult. There's only, you know, a couple at the top of the heap that can really make a solid go of it. And the amount of training required to compete in that race at that level, it's all-consuming. And yet, there really isn't the... I mean, there's much more infrastructure in that system than there is in the ultra world. So, you know, it's a testament to, you know, what you've done, that you've been able to, you know, build what you've built. It's admirable and amazing.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  Well, you know, like you said, there's sacrifices you make. I mean, obviously, you know, I could be more competitive if I had a real job. You know, I keep thinking, geez, if you just went back to work in the corporate world, you'd have more time to train, you'd travel less, you know, you could do better in competition. But then I think about sitting in an office.

• 45:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But also, living a balanced life, right? You've been doing this for a really long time, and you're in a sport that could consume you completely. Like, you could go live in a hut in the woods by yourself and just train all day long, every single day. There's probably no limit to the amount that you could train and immerse yourself in the sport, but that's not your life. You have a family, you know, you have obligations, you're writing books, and this is becoming increasingly more and more important and interesting to me. Like, how do I continue to, you know, embrace this love that I have of sport and still be a good dad and still provide for my children and be a loving husband

• 46:07Rich Roll?

  and, you know, not be cut off from my friends? You know, where is the demarcation line between sacrifice and kind of living the most productive balanced life that I can?

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Well, I, you know, I think it's a good topic. And I think if you, you know, if you look at me and you want to know the real story, I don't have a life. I mean, I have zero social life. My social life is like, you know, last weekend, I was, you know, I gave a talk at a running event, at the Wine Country Half Marathon. And, you know, this coming weekend, I'll be at the New York City Marathon. You know, I'm doing like an event, an appearance, and a fun run at Paragon Sports on Thursday night. And, you know, there'll be a couple hundred people there. And that's my social event. I mean, you know, it's, that's where I get my contact with people, and then I go back to my hotel room, and I'm a hermit, and I focus on work. I, you know, when I'm home with my family, I don't, we don't go

• 47:02Speaker 01

  out. I haven't seen a movie. And, I mean, I, you know, see bits and pieces of movies on airplanes, but I don't even put on the, you know, I don't even listen to the audio. I'm always, you know, working. So constantly, you know, writing, or, you know, responding to emails, you know, doing articles and so forth. No social life whatsoever. And I'm fine with that. You know, if that was inconsistent with my hardwiring, who I was, and if I fought against that, I think I'd be miserable, and I wouldn't be able to keep it up. But I just... It's like not having a social life to me is not a sacrifice because I'm a, I think I'm like you, I'm a very much an introverted person. So I like my alone time. I like my quiet time.

• 47:41Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  And when I'm out on the road, you know, I'm immersed in other runners and fans and, you know, I get a lot of love out there.

• 47:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, you do. And I noticed it firsthand. I mean, when we were at Badwater, it was almost like you needed people around you to make sure that you could get in and out of a room without getting too caught up talking to people because you want to engage everybody. You have all these people coming up to you. They all want a piece of Dean. You know, they want that moment and you're more than willing to give it to them. I mean, I noticed, I was very acutely aware of just how much you availed yourself to everybody who wanted to talk to you. And I think that's really important to be present for every interaction because that's their moment with you. They're going to remember that and it's important that you, you know, kind of are there for that. And yet, at the same time,

• 48:31Rich Roll?

  it's like, hey, I got to get registered and back to the hotel and I got to get rest and having, you know, somebody to kind of guide you out of that. And I was reflecting on that and thinking, you know, about, about how that contrasts with this idea that's out there that, that, you know, you're this controversial figure in ultra running and, and, you know, you've ruffled feathers in the community and, you know, there's, there's some runners out there who aren't exactly thrilled that you're getting attention and they're not. And all I noticed at Badwater was, you know, unanimous support and, and love for what you're doing. So I'm interested in kind of how you navigate, how you have

• 49:12Rich Roll?

  navigated that kind of, you know, controversy or the kind of grumbling that's out there.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it, you know, it's been hard for me. I've got to be honest. I've got a thin skin. I'm not going to, I'm not going to pretend that I'm callous or that I can just deflect this stuff. I mean, I take a lot of it personally. And I'm also a very personable guy. I mean, it goes both ways. I think you saw that. Thankfully, I am what I am, and I like people, and I like hearing some of these stories, and people inspire me. I mean, they come up to me and they tell me these incredible stories, a lot of them. And you know, I have, I mean, I have probably 10,000 letters down in my garage in boxes, and probably twice as many emails in an Outlook folder from people unsolicited.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  They just say, a lot of them start with the very, the very first sentence is, you know, "You changed my life." So to me, that's, that's about the greatest reward I could ever wish for. I mean, beyond any amount of money. I mean, to me, that, that means more than anything. So to, you know, to handle some of the criticism I've got, I've learned just to say, well, look, it's a very small percentage of people that are throwing jabs, and a lot of it's not credible. A lot of people, you know, they mischaracterize me. They don't know me. And you know, my dad always told me, he said, you know, "If you've got a problem with someone, you know, don't go behind their back. Talk to them about it." I've literally never had one person come up to me and say, "Hey, I got a problem with you. You know, you're getting too much press, and these other guys deserve more."

• 50:45Speaker 01

  I've never had one person say that. It's more like, you know, in these Anonymous avatar on some forum somewhere. A guy, you know, with the, the moniker, you know, "Tochi's", saying, you know, "I'm this and that." I'm like, "Fuck Tochi's, come on. Who are you, buddy? Use your real name at least, come on." So I've, I've learned, you know, to, to deflect some of it. But that said, you know, some, some of the criticism is, is, I don't even know if you consider it criticism. It's just observations that I agree with. Yeah, I'm not winning races. Yeah, you know, I'm out promoting more than, than racing a lot, and those are truths, and that's just the, the fact of the matter. So I agree with those observations. You know, and regarding me getting more publicity than anyone else, I mean,

• 51:29Speaker 01

  my ultimate goal is to, is to grow this pie, to, you know, to increase the amount of visibility of endurance sports so that more people can make a living doing what they love. And I think, you know, publicity is not, it's not limited. I mean, it's, it's not like a finite amount of publicity that's out there. We can all band together and make this a bigger and broader sport that more and more people can enjoy and make a living doing.

• 51:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, certainly, there are some tremendously gifted ultra runners out there that are not getting their due in the media and for a variety of reasons. But I, I think that it's changing a lot, and I think it's changing in no small part due to, you know, the many years of advocacy that, that you've done and the spotlight that you've been able to shine on this world. I mean, I think when Ultra Marathon Man came out, that was most people's first introduction to this world they had never even heard of. And ultra running, you know, it's been around for a while, but it's a very grassroots kind of thing, and you go to these races and most people are staying in tents and, you know, it's, it's super low key and, and, and now, you know, it's a lot more popular, you know,

• 52:40Rich Roll?

  it is, it's really grown a lot. People are looking for the next thing beyond the marathon. What's the next challenge? And, and the level of awareness and respect for what people like you and the other great runners are doing out there has never been greater, and I see it continuing to expand. And I think it's interesting to kind of observe how, how the ultra running world and that community is trying to navigate the growth. Because there's something beautiful and pristine and pure about the roots of the sport. You know, the fact that everyone is sleeping in a tent and it's a small community and it's, it's just about the love.

• 53:20Rich Roll?

  And now, it's becoming more, you know, of a, of a commercial enterprise. And how do you, you know, how do you effectively grow without losing that core spirit that, that makes it such a beautiful thing?

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Well, you know, that's a really good question, and I really believe that spirit still persists. Even with, you know, what we've seen with the growth is certainly the, you know, the the growth of elite runners has, you know, gone through the, you know, a lot of guys that were collegiate marathoners, you know, really fast guys are now, you know, they're running 50K, 50 milers in insane times. I mean, you know, you flip through the pages of ultra running magazine, and there's, you know, almost every race, there's a new course record set by, you know, some guy you've never heard of. So that's certainly growing. But what's really growing is just, is the middle, is people that you refer to that are just, you know, they might have run eight or nine marathons, and, you know, they're

• 54:19Speaker 01

  like, "God, I want to go beyond. I want to try an ultra." And these are, you know, these are fathers, these are mothers, these are business people, these are more, you know, everyday people that are really like, looking to take it to the next level. And I think when they go to a race, you know, they're not sleeping in tents, maybe they're staying in a hotel, but I think at the start of any race, that spirit is still there, regardless if you're one of the elites, you know, if you're one of the old timers or one of the newbies, I think that ultra running spirit is never going to go away. I just think because of the nature of what we're doing, it's so extreme, and I think you have a mutual respect for anyone who's toeing the starting line with you, because you know, this person

• 55:00Speaker 01

  has sacrificed, they've dedicated themselves, they've committed, no matter how much you're racing against them, you respect them on some level. And, you know, I've been at so many races where, you know, you're racing head to head with someone for the first 70 miles, and then, you know, then they're bonking in a chair, and you're almost saying, "Come on, you can do it." I mean, I've seen some heroic stories of people who are competitors picking each other, you know, off the ground, saying, "You can finish this damn thing." So at a point, you know, the human spirit comes through, and it shines too brighter than anything else. And just, you know, the thought of helping another human and that camaraderie, I don't think that's ever going to go away in our sport, no matter how big it becomes.

• 55:39Rich Roll?

  Right. About two weeks ago...

• 55:43Rich Roll?

  I sat down with Jen Steinman, your friend Jen Stein.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:46Rich Roll?

  You're sitting there wearing the Four Deserts jacket right now. And we had a great podcast chat about her movie, Desert Runners, which, you know, I saw a couple of weeks ago. And that movie really is exactly what you just said. You know, it's four, yeah, it's four or five, four, you know, really just normal people who decide they're going to tackle the four deserts, which is just, you know, one of the most extraordinary, you know, endurance feats you can possibly imagine. And they're not professional athletes. I think one of them had like never even run a marathon or a half marathon. And the movie chronicles like how they prepare and endure this crazy adventure, which is an adventure that you had.

• 56:31Rich Roll?

  But it's exactly what you said, which is cool to see that. And it really, I think, blows the ceiling off the limitations that we put on ourselves. Because I think for the most part, we, you know, we're not limited by what other people are telling us. We're limited by what we tell ourselves.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think that that mindset is the magic in ultra marathoning. I think that's really it. It's just, it's, you know, the first time I heard about someone running 100 miles, I couldn't get my head around it. It was such an expansive thought. I thought, hold it, you know, there's trickery here. No one can run 100. What do you mean, I can't even drive 100 miles? I mean, like, where are the hotels? You know, how many weeks does it take them? And when they said, no, we just run 100 miles, and we start at Squaw Valley, and we run to Auburn, 100 miles, we cross the, you know, the Ruckey-Chucky River. I'm thinking, that's ludicrous. I mean, that's, it just blew my mind. And I thought, I gotta try this.

• 57:31Rich Roll?

  Well, that's a good, I know, that's like out of control.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  Great music going on in the background here, yeah.

• 57:38Rich Roll?

  That's a good place, I think, to launch into, you know, the Dean Karnaz's origin story for the three people listening who don't know who you are, who haven't heard it. So, you know, take us back to, you know, that kind of, mine, of course.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Gets even better and better, yeah.

• 57:54Rich Roll?

  I'm the one who doesn't turn this off. You know, because I'm all, one of the things that is a big part of my story and one of the, you know, common themes of this podcast is talking about those special moments in your life that change everything, or those line in the sand moments where you make a decision and set about like a new trajectory that over time, you know, completely recolors your life experience.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Well, you know, for me, with, with running, I, you know, some of my fondest memories, my earliest memories are, are running, literally. I remember running home from kindergarten when I was six years old. I'm laughing at this noise in the background, but yeah, I mean, that, yeah, that's how it kind of related to the world. I remember sitting in class, just being so bored and pent up and could not wait for school to get over so I could run home, because I'd run through the park. And it was just, to me, it was the way I related to the world. I used to see people, I used to wave at people. And I ran a marathon when I was 14 years old. And finished my high school cross-country team as a freshman.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  We, we won the state. And I hung up my running shoes and, you know, pursued what I thought would bring me happiness, which we're kind of told will bring us happiness. You know, you go to, you go to, you get a college degree, you know, you go to graduate school, you go to business school, you land a cush corporate job, and you're happy. That's your road to happiness. And on my 30th birthday, it just came to a head, I realized I wasn't happy. And all these things I thought were going to bring me happiness were kind of making me miserable. I, I didn't like who I was. So...

• 59:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think, I think you use this quote a lot. I use it every time I, I, I give a talk, which are the famous words of Henry David Thoreau, you know, "The, the mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation, and what is considered resignation is confirmed desperation." And it's such a powerful sentence, you know? And if it was true in his time, it's certainly, I think, more true now, and fueled by Madison Avenue and social pressure and keeping up with the Joneses. But my whole life was premised upon the pursuit of this American dream as a recipe for happiness. And, you know, if my story is anything, it's,

• 1:00:16Rich Roll?

  it's, it's an evolution to the realization of just how fallacious and empty that truly is.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  I, you know, I think, you know, being Greek, I'll refer to the, you know, the oracle at Delphi that said, "Know thyself." And I just looked inside and said, "Okay, Carnassus, you know, you love to run. It's simple, it's, it's, it's, it's nothing, it's just running, but it's what you love to do and be true to what you love, or you will live a life of quiet desperation. Make a go of it. Make, you know, your, your, your passion, your vocation, and make it your life. And that's kind of the road to happiness." And, yeah, I walked out of that bar, 30 years old, hadn't run in 15 years, you know,

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  drunk, 11 o'clock at night, and said, "Damn it, I'm running 30 miles right now to celebrate my 30th birthday and take my life back."

• 1:01:23Rich Roll?

  So it was your 30th birthday, and the bar was the Paragon.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  You know it, you know it, yeah.

• 1:01:32Rich Roll?

  So here's the thing.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  We're about the same age, yeah, so you know it, yeah.

• 1:01:35Rich Roll?

  We're about the same age, and I will tell you this, I used to live down the street from the Paragon Bar. That was my favorite bar. I was there three, four, five nights a week. And this was August of 92, right, when this happened?

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 1:01:52Rich Roll?

  I was working in San Francisco that summer, and I can't say with certainty, but I would imagine that there's a good chance, maybe like a 40% chance, that I was at that bar that night.

• 1:02:08Rich Roll?

  Because I used to-

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  I should have taken you running with me.

• 1:02:10Rich Roll?

  ...out of there every, ah, it was not pretty.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  I could have turned your life around a little bit earlier, had you run with me, yeah.

• 1:02:16Rich Roll?

  I didn't know, I didn't know that it was the Paragon Bar, and then I was like, you know, "I know, Dean, but I should probably do, like, let me just do a little homework, make sure, like, I'm crossing my Ts here, and I'm reading some stuff on the internet." And I, and I, I never knew that it was the Paragon Bar, and then I saw that, I was like, "Oh, my God, really? That bar?"

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  You probably know every footstep I took, because I ran right down to Half Moon Bay. I mean, ran on Skyline, hung a right on, on the 92 and run right to Half Moon Bay. Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I'll admit, I had a bit of a drinking problem. I mean, nothing like yours. After I read your book, I'm like, because, you know, you explained to me about, kind of- Your, you know, your, your addiction and I thought, God, you know, Rich seems like a pretty even keel guy to me. Doesn't seem, you know, compulsive, obsessive.

• 1:03:00Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Then I read your book, I'm like, oh God. Here's a real story. That was very revealing, yeah. Very, very powerful. I mean, very, um, I have so much admiration for you, uh, changing your life the way you did because that is not an easy thing to do.

• 1:03:15Rich Roll?

  Thanks, man. Well, you know, I think that, that, uh, the most powerful thing about your story, like, I can read the fifty and fifty and, you know, like, all these incredible feats, but what I emotionally tapped into was like you being at that bar and making that decision, you know, you kind of, because you were leading a life that was very analogous to the life that I was leading and reaching that point where you're like, this is not working for me. And, and what makes me happy happens to be these super simple things that we're told as adults are kind of, you know, child's play. Right? You're not going to get the support of, you know,

• 1:03:54Rich Roll?

  your colleagues for saying, yeah, I think I want to just go out and like, I just like how the sun feels on my back or I like, you know, what, what, what my body feels like when I jump into a swimming pool. Like, these are not, these are not things that adults should be aspiring to, right?

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. Um, what I found with running though is kind of interesting in that, um, it's very identifiable. Like, uh, everyone has run. So, when someone hears you ran a hundred miles, you know, they, they can relate to it because they've run maybe a mile, you know, when they were in, in, in middle school or something, or, you know, they, they've run themselves, or they might run right now. Uh, and they, they can relate to it. So it's, it's an identifiable thing. And they know it hurts. They know there's shared pain there. So, uh, running is a little bit different than, say, surfing or something like that. I mean, uh, running is, is an identifiable thing and

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  certainly marathoning, you know, the growth of, we've talked about the growth of, of ultra-marathoning, but the growth of marathoning, half-marathoning. You know, 5Ks globally has gone through the roof. So I think more and more people are seeking these sort of outlets to have a more fulfilling life.

• 1:05:08Rich Roll?

  Right, it's certainly the most populist thing. But taking it back to that evening at the Paragon, there was no idea of running 100 miles then. There was just this very primal yearning for something more real and tangible and visceral in your life.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Well, I was drunk.

• 1:05:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but even if you weren't.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Lemon on bad tequila, yeah.

• 1:05:30Rich Roll?

  Even if you weren't, you had this kind of, you know, sort of hole in your spirit saying, "I'm not living the life that I want to lead."

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there was certainly at least a year of that sort of quiet contemplation where I'm like, you know, you look at the path you're on, you're not happy, you're conflicted. You don't like what you're doing. I hated going to business meetings. I felt so out of place. I didn't feel like I was in, you know, I felt like I was awkward in my own skin. I didn't enjoy it. And it was just kind of forced misery. And I thought, "Is this really how you want to spend the rest of your life?" And it just percolated, you know, my 30th birthday. I think a lot of people don't come to this realization, like you said, until they're, you know, on social security. And, you know, at that time, it's kind of too late.

• 1:06:21Rich Roll?

  But I think that's changing. You know, I think that this, you know, if you can call it an affliction or sort of, you know, yearning of the soul is something that I'm seeing in people more and more. And I think that the internet has, you know, really kind of facilitated people educating themselves or becoming aware that there are other ways of living their life. And because the internet allows people to sort of create these self-styled careers or telecommute or what have you, it's opening up a world of possibilities that, you know, this is not the madman era. You know, in the days of going to, you know, a cush corporate job in your 401K, like, that's really not so much the path for most people anymore.

• 1:07:04Rich Roll?

  It's not as predictable or reliable as it once was. And I think people are looking for... More personally significant career paths. And that's why, you know, I think what you've done is so inspiring. And I think, again, to go back to this kind of neatly packaged narrative around you. There's this idea that, oh, you ran 30 miles that night and then, you know, snap your fingers and you're winning bad water. But that's not the reality of your story. I mean, it was, you continued to work a nine to five for, you know, several years after that. And it was many, many years before, you know, you became the professional that you are today and, you know, a writer and somebody who's winning these races.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was a series of baby steps. And, um, you know, it, the reality of doing what we're doing is that it's friggin scary. You know, there's comfort in having a 401 matching K program, in having healthcare benefits, in having a paycheck. To step away from those things is scary. It's terrifying. I gotta admit, I was terrified. Like, how am I gonna do this? Can I do it? There's a lot of self doubt. And I think a lot of people are plagued by that self doubt. But you're also right that a lot of people are following their passion. I've noticed, I think, a paradigm shift in the past decade of people who are willing,

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  at least tepidly, to try new things and try, you know, side careers even, try it part time, you know, taking on something different and seeing if they can transition that into their full time, their full time vocation. But, yeah, it took me, you know, about, I would say about six to seven years of kind of tiptoeing around the edges before I just jumped, jumped in wholeheartedly. And I'll never forget the day I did. Um, you know, I sat down with my wife, who you met, and I said, Julie, you know, I'm, I've got some, some kind of, you know, tough news, some scary news. I'm gonna, I'm gonna quit my job. I'm gonna resign and pursue my passion full time. And she looked at me and she said, I wonder what took you so long?

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  So I mean, you have a very supportive wife.

• 1:09:10Rich Roll?

  Well, you're very smart to marry a woman named Julie. That's my wife's name. But that makes all the difference, you know, having a partner who can kind of see, you know, the best version of you and support that. You know, I certainly had that. And it took me a while before I was really willing to, you know, cut the reins on the law career. And it was the same thing, like, I've been waiting for you to do this all along. But it is terrifying, and it doesn't happen overnight. So I think that, you know, for people that are listening out there who are tiptoeing around the edges of this, it's okay to start slow. It's not, it's not like, hey, quit your job tomorrow. I think it's a process of, of, of taking the time to really connect with who you are

• 1:09:54Rich Roll?

  and develop that deep understanding of, of, of, you know, what it is that makes you tick. Like, kind of peeling back the layers and finding, you know, what is my most authentic self? What is my legacy? What am I here to express? What is unique to me that makes me happy? And then setting us, you know, setting about creating some kind of long-term plan towards making that happen. But it begins with those tiny little steps that you, you know, it's, it's laying those bricks down, brick by brick, over many years.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. And I think that, you know, I think everyone has a passion. You know, everyone, if you look inside, I mean, there's something that excites everyone, whatever it might be. It might be watching movies. You know, then pursue a career in, you know, movie making or movie reviewing, whatever it is that you are most passionate about. So I think it takes a bit of introspection to look inside to say, you know, what really gets my blood, you know, moving? What gets me out of bed in the morning? Most people probably say, ah, it's not, it's not my job. Although some people are hugely passionate about their job, and that's, that's great. If you can find a, a job that's rewarding, self, you know, self-rewarding, that, that's, you know, certainly the, the goal, I think, of, of any person.

• 1:11:11Rich Roll?

  I'm jealous of those people. I wish, life would be easier if that was the case.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  You don't want to be a, a Java programmer? Come on.

• 1:11:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I think that it's important to, to really invest in that interior work. Otherwise, you could think that you want something and end up barking up the wrong tree.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  I think that, you know, do something adventurous and do something out of character. And to me, you know, signing up for a marathon, you know, even a half marathon, if you're not a runner, is, it's gonna, it's gonna break down barriers that you had in your head about what is possible. And I think that that's why running is so symbolic in endurance sports. Try a triathlon. You're gonna experience new experiences, you're gonna see new things, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna have a range of emotions that are so different than anything you've, you've experienced before, that those lessons carry over into life, I think. They carry over into business. So I think that, you know, biting off more than you can chew is really a good thing.

• 1:12:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I agree with that. When we, when we shared that car ride after Badwater and we had to go back to where you were dropping me off, where my car was, I think we were in the car for a couple hours, we had a fun talk and, and one of the things that came up was this, this idea, you know, I think people project onto you and, and, and they see you and they think, oh, you're surrounded by this sort of cadre of handlers that are managing your life and taking care of all the details and, and kind of, you know, the fact that that's a complete illusion. You know, like, you're here in your house, you're going out running every day, there, there isn't some, you know, assistant following you around, answering your emails for you

• 1:13:00Rich Roll?

  and posting on your Facebook page. You know, talk a little bit about sort of perception versus reality.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Well, I think, yeah, you know, people are always shocked when I, I respond to their emails, like, hold it, is this really Dean? Like, I get that all the time, or on Facebook, if I, you know, if I actually, you know, respond to a comment, they're like, hold it, is this really you? But you're right, I mean, I, I purposely don't want to be surrounded by a lot of, of people like that and a lot of mob. I mean, one, you know, I'm, I'm not a rock star, I'm not a movie star, you know, it's a pretty simple life that I live and I want to keep it that way. And, you know, I've, I've certainly been a corporate guy and, you know, I've, I've run a company and I know... What that takes and it's just not me. I don't like all that incoming noise. I mean, I'm an introvert and I like nothing more than just to go, you know, run for a couple

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  hours and just get in my own head. So I realized that and I know, you know, what it takes to succeed and get things to the next level. And, you know, sometimes I am surrounded by people and sometimes I am handled, but that's not my whole life. I mean, those are very isolated circumstances and I prefer to keep it that way. So I think in that regard, I've done a good job at, you know, at knowing my strengths and my weaknesses and, and trying to, you know, arrange my schedule and my life that, you know, that plays into my strengths and minimizes my weaknesses.

• 1:14:27Rich Roll?

  When you look at that though, and you, you're evaluating your weaknesses, I mean, where do you see, you know, there is no stasis. We're either growing or we're regressing. So when you kind of look at your own life and what are you looking at to say, you know what, this needs work. Like I need to work on growing more in this regard, whether it's running or just in, in your personal life.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you know, my wife has helped me a lot. I mean, people say, you know, did you learn a lot in business school, you know, this and that. And I, you know, I say, well, no, I learned a lot from other people that are close to me. And she's taught me a lot about the, the grace of living, of, of not being in the spotlight, of, of being kind of a humble servant. You know, someone once told me they gave money anonymously. And I thought, oh my God, you know, why wouldn't you want the recognition? And they're like, try and do an, an act of good for someone and don't tell anyone. Don't expect anything in return. Do it for your own soul. And that was really, it was, it was a paradigm shift

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  for me because I thought, but don't you want to be recognized for your contributions and this and that? And to not be recognized, just to do good, just because it's good and it makes you feel good and it's good for your soul is something now that I, I do a whole lot of. I mean, I know, you know, I'll tell you this story and it's, it's kind of weird, but a lot of times I run with dollar bills in my hydration pack. And sometimes I'll pass a car and I'll just put a random dollar bill under the windshield wiper. And I thought, how cool is it for someone to come out, you know, the car's not broken into, someone slipped a dollar bill, like a good luck dollar bill.

• 1:16:07Rich Roll?

  Wait a minute. What's wrong with my car?

• 1:16:11Rich Roll?

  Where's the ding?

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think there's, you know, in doing those sort of things, I mean, I think it was, you know, it was Plato who said it's better to suffer wrong than to do wrong. So I think that doing right and not expecting recognition, not even looking for it, in fact, purposefully, you know, avoiding the spotlight on it is really, it's self-affirming. It's really, it helps you be a better you.

• 1:16:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, service in the construct of recovery, which is kind of, you know, the principles around which I structure my life, is central towards not just being a sober human being, but to really being happy. You know, I think if you're lacking service in your life in some way, that you're missing out on a cornerstone of what it means to be an actualized human and fulfilled in your life. And service is an esteemable act and, you know, you get self-esteem from performing esteemable acts. So if that's missing in your life, I think that that's a crucial thing for people to look at.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, I think the way we're raised influences who we are so much. And, you know, for me, I look at, you know, my wife and how pure she is and how, like, her default behavior, she doesn't have to think about it. It's kind of like the way she was raised by some great parents and very upstanding parents. And sometimes, you know, when I go to act in certain ways, it's almost like I've got to check myself, like, is this the right way to act? Where she just moves through gracefully, it's just kind of, it's already pre-programmed into her. So I've learned a lot at just watching her behavior and, you know, emulating a lot of that. I mean, you know, the other thing that you and I have discussed as far as, you know,

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  the recipe for happiness is just... Is being present, is being in the now. And I think fewer and fewer people are actually in the present state, in the here and now, at any given moment in any day. I mean, the, the number of distractions in our lives these days are, are, it's insane, especially for our kids. I mean, I look at, you know, my kids, I mean, you know, my son gets 500 texts, you know, and Snapchats and, you know, Instagrams a month. And I'm like, that, that's so much coming at you. You know, when are you just like, present, you know? And I find that most people are either thinking about the future or reflecting on the past, instead of just enjoying the present moment in time, the, the now.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  And I think that's, that's really something I've come to appreciate, is being more and more in the now. It doesn't mean you, you don't have goals, you don't have aspirations, but just celebrating every second of, of that present moment in time for what it is.

• 1:19:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's incredibly difficult to be present, you know? It's not a default setting for almost anybody. It requires diligence and practice, I think. But running is a great facilitator, you know? It, it really, that's why I love trail running. It, it just allows you to really just be in the moment of what you're doing. And then when you're in that headspace, or lack of headspace, you know, even, that's where, you know, you have beautiful insights and inspirations that, that come into your life. But it's, you know, we're not genet-, we're not genetically hardwired to handle all the stimulus, you know, with technology coming at us. And it's really, you know, it can, it can erode your soul, you know, if you're not diligent

• 1:19:47Rich Roll?

  about creating healthy boundaries around it. And I've noticed it in myself, you know? I get caught up and I'm looking on the Twitter and whatever, and, and my wife will be like, you've gotta put that down. And I realize, like, I, I have an addictive relationship to it, you know, that I really need to, like, look at and evaluate.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  Well, I like your wife's style, yeah. No, but I mean, I think that evolutionary, from an evolutionary standpoint, we've gone, we're gonna go in a very interesting direction from here in that, you're right, we are so far removed from the human experience in our daily lives that it's, you know, so many people, it's hard for me to relate to because, I mean, they don't understand the weather. I mean, you know, when you run, not only do your feet physically touch the earth, so you're touching the earth, you know, you're smelling the smells, you're watching, you know, the humidity, you know, the nuances of the wind, you know, you're watching cloud

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  formations, you learn these things. And most people don't know these things these days. I mean, it's, to me, it's phenomenal how removed they are from an everyday human experience. I mean, if you think about, you know, like the Native American Indians, how they related to this earth versus how we do today, it's completely different. And, you know, the things that, that used to matter to a human, that were essential for survival, are completely removed from our lives entirely.

• 1:21:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we don't, we don't have to care, you know, and that drives, that drives choices that we make every day, which, you know, are not necessarily in our best interest or in the best interest of the planet, because we're not thinking about those things. They're not, they're not a concern, they're not relevant to our survival or our, even our happiness, you know, it's like whether it's cloudy or sunny outside, well, I'm inside and it's air-conditioned and it doesn't matter.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  And, you know, space exploration, I mean, to me, that is like the most foreign thing to do to a human system is put them somewhere they were never engineered or meant to be. I mean, you know, even the, you know, the experience of flying in an airplane. And, you know, looking at the earth from the sky is a completely new human experience. I mean, you know, 300 years ago, you couldn't do that.

• 1:22:05Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, decades ago, you couldn't.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:07Rich Roll?

  And what's amazing, and what I've noticed when I get on an airplane, is people just pull the shade down, and if you pull it up, people are annoyed. And it's like, you have this ability to look down on our planet, which is something that humankind throughout history has never been able to do. You know, you get to look down and see the earth from a great distance, and how extraordinary that is, and how we as human beings just adapt to that and go, eh, you know, I've lost interest in that already, which is like insane.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  I just want to hug you, because hallelujah, that someone else looks out the damn window these days. I'm like, I keep, you know, yeah, you're right. I mean, people are, we're so happy they didn't have to turn off their iPads now, you know, with the new FAA regulations. I'm like, jeez, you know, I just cracked that window and inched and let me look down. I mean, there's Yosemite. I mean, you were flying over Yosemite Valley. What's more important, you know, your movie or looking down at, you know, Half Dome? I mean, come on.

• 1:23:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's amazing. Back to this idea of service, you know, kind of talking about these, you know, sort of acts that you take in anonymity. But, you know, a lot of what you do is just, what you do professionally is of service. You go to these races, you're hanging out with all these people, you're inspiring all these people, they send you these emails and these letters. And, and I would imagine that's extremely gratifying to know that you have, you know, played a part, small or large, in somebody's personal transformation. So I'm interested in how you kind of navigate that and, and maintain, you know, sort of

• 1:23:45Rich Roll?

  check your ego and stay right, right sized about the whole thing. Because if the service aspect is ego fueled, then that's kind of undermining the whole point of the whole thing. And I would imagine that, you know, you're around all these people, they're pulling on you, they want, you know, they want to have this interaction with you, and it'd be very easy to kind of get inflated over that kind of thing.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  I guess, I mean, to be honest, I still am completely shocked by people that come up to me and say things. Like, I still don't, I don't equate me with what they're saying. Like, when someone says, "You changed my life," I kind of look at them like, "How?" I mean, I'm just, I just wrote about doing what I love. How, you know, if that had such a profound impact on you, I'm, I'm deeply moved, but it doesn't, it doesn't really, it doesn't do anything like, it's not, it's not like they're, they're fawning fans, like, "Oh," you know, like, following a rock star or a movie star. I mean, I think they, um, there's this mutual, there's a kindred spirit there that keeps me grounded. And, you know, to

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  be honest, I enjoy it. I mean, sometimes, it's like drinking from a fire hose. Like, when I, like, when I go to New York City Marathon this weekend, you know, there'll be a line of 400 people, um, for, you know, for a signing of mine. And to me, that is, that is, it's torture. Because everyone has a great story. And when people come up to you and they say, you know, "Jeez, you know, my, my best friend, uh, just died of cancer, and I'm gonna run this race in, in his honor for his family, and, you know, he really admired you." It's so, to me, conflicting, just, you know, to look at this guy and just kind of want to hug him and have a beer with him. And, you know, there's 300 people behind

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  him, they're all waiting to tell a similar story. And that, to me, just, it, it, that is the hardest part of what I do. It's, it's not hearing these stories, it's just knowing there's, there's so many of these stories, and it's gotta happen so quickly. I mean... How do you devote, you know, the respectful amount of bandwidth to each one of them? It, it's, I don't know how to do it. And, you know, I'm not trained on how to do it. I don't know. I mean, it just, I just, I'm touched by these stories. You saw it, even at Badwater. I mean, these people move me. And they're great people. They're people I'd want to sit down and, you know, have, have a cup of coffee or beer with. So, um, I, I don't think I'll ever tire of it. People say, "Doesn't it get exhausting?" You know,

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  I mean, just this morning, when I was running, some guy, unsuspected, you know, this biker whizzes past me. He was just like on a bike commute. He didn't even look that fit. You know, next thing I know, there's a guy riding next to me, like, "Oh, my God, you're, you're Dean, aren't you? Oh, my, I've read your stories, and you're incredible." And, you know, he wants to take a selfie with me. And you know, it's kind of cool, whatever, you know, I'm out for a run, this guy, yeah, and that happens all the time. It happens in airports, it happens in obscure places, and it's, it's always great people with great stories. So I don't think it's ever gonna boost my ego, and I don't, I don't think I'll ever, I guess, grow accustomed to the fact that, that I've influenced people in such a way.

• 1:26:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's interesting. No, I like that. I mean, it's, it's almost like you have to take yourself out of the context, like there's, there's the message which transcends the individual.

• 1:27:13Speaker 01

  Well, that, that's, you know, one thing with my, with Ultra Marathon, man, that blows me away is, um, how many people have come up to me that don't run, that say, wow, this book has really changed my life. And I think it's just, it's to your point, it's, it's, it's beyond running, it's bigger than running.

• 1:27:30Rich Roll?

  Well, running is a metaphor, you know, running is a metaphor for transformation and, you know, finding purpose and meaning in your life and whatever shape or form that is. Like you said it earlier, you want to be a film, you want to be a filmmaker, or whatever it is, you want to play the banjo, you want to be a stand-up comic, you want to write a book, you know, the Ultra Marathon is kind of that, you know, represents all of those things. It's just your version of that for the reader.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I guess, I guess more than anything, um, it gives people permission to follow their own path.

• 1:28:03Rich Roll?

  Or to take a, take a leap of faith.

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  Take a leap of faith, yep. I mean, they look at, they say, wow, he, he did it, you know, darn it, I can try it as well, and more power to him, yeah.

• 1:28:12Rich Roll?

  What do you think it is about our kind of innate, um, need to feel challenged, to be challenged, to, you know, get uncomfortable? Like, it was this sense of security that was making you miserable. It was all this comfort, you know, it's like, we're in this culture where it's all about ease, you know, get the big screen TV, and here's a couch that's more comfortable than your other couch, and look at the seats in this car, and all of that. It's all designed to kind of lull us into this sense of, of comfort, and implicit in that is that that's what's gonna make us happy, and, and it couldn't be more different.

• 1:28:51Rich Roll?

  So what is it about that sort of embracing discomfort and, and adventure that is so crucial to the equation of being fulfilled?

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  Well, I think we're never happier than when we're struggling. We never feel more alive. I mean, any endurance athlete can tell you, you know, some of the most poignant moments in their life is when they're dealing with adversity and struggling. And I think that that's the essence of life. And, you know, comfort brings nothing with it. It has no internal reward whatsoever. So I think that, once you struggle and once you overcome adversity, you realize the power in it. And you see how much more that stimulates you than just taking the easy road. And you seek that out.

• 1:29:40Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:41Speaker 01

  I think that, you know, it's kind of to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I mean, you know, self-actualization, you know, a man must be all that a man can be. And I think, you know, the Marines certainly capitalized on that when they say, be all that you can be, which is just a summary of, you know, what Maslow said. And I think people, I think that's just the human nature, is you want to see how far you can go. You want to be the best you that you can be.

• 1:30:05Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And the only way to do that is to step out of the comfort zone.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Is to test yourself, yeah.

• 1:30:13Rich Roll?

  But, but, but the comfort zone is where I feel like we're all trying, we're all being herded, you know, if you turn the television on.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the path, you know, the easy path is certainly something that is, is easy to do. And I mean, advertisers play into that. But I think that, you know, like I said, it's just, it's, it's kind of that gateway, just to try one thing that's a little bit outside of your comfort zone, where you have to struggle, that, that, you know, that gives you that internal feeling of gratitude and reward, that you want more and more of it. I think, like, you know, to your earlier point, more and more people are, I think, are realizing this and discovering. And I think that's why there's been such an explosion in endurance sports.

• 1:30:57Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, and looking at your life, I mean, your legacy is intact. You know, you could stop doing this now. Everybody knows your story. There's, there's very little that you haven't done in the ultra-running world. So what gets you out of bed in the morning excited? And what is the, the next challenge for you?

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  Well, I think that, you know, I'm largely going in the, perhaps the same direction you are. I know you're coming out with a new book that's a cookbook. And, you know, what I'm trying to do is almost not dumb down my reputation as this insane endurance guy, but to broaden my reputation, to motivate the masses, if you will. So, you know, even go beyond the core, beyond the grassroots, to the mass roots, to really influence, you know, middle America, if you will, to become healthier and more active. I think the world, honestly, I believe the world would be a better place if we were all healthier and active, and more active.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  I think that you, you, you know, your worldview is broader, your demeanor is more pleasant, you treat others better when you're healthy. And, you know, we see people that are grossly out of shape, and it's almost like their life is taken away from them. So if I can try to influence this country to become, you know, this, actually, you know, it's not just this country that's suffering. I mean, there's a phenomenon called globescity. It's global. I mean, every developed nation I travel to, there's massive problems with obesity. They're some of the number one health concerns. And if I can influence, you know, a reverse of that, and for people to become healthier and more active, then that's what I want to do.

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  So, you know, what I'm going to try to do from here on forward is speak to the masses, you know, speak in a language that will inspire someone to, you know, take up the couch to 5K, you know, adapt a healthier diet, and also give them the tools and the resources so they can do that.

• 1:33:05Rich Roll?

  It is interesting that this obesity epidemic that we're mired in is being exported across the globe, and I've done quite a bit of international travel this past year, and you see it. And you land in these foreign ports of call, and the first thing you see is Kentucky Fried Chicken, and then it's a McDonald's, and Carl's Jr. I was in the Middle East, I saw TGI Fried Eggs, you know, and it's insane. And they're experiencing...

• 1:33:32Rich Roll?

  The deleterious health effects that they've never experienced in the history of their their culture and they're they're not as up to speed on health as we are because it's new, you know, and this is tragic.

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  Well, it's it's not even developed worlds. It's, you know, I just read a study that even in underdeveloped nations, you know, nations we typically thought of were, you know, famine, there's obesity problems now. I mean, the kids in, you know, third world countries are getting diabetes, you know, hypertension, you know, and they're teens. So it's it's it's a global issue. And I think a lot of it starts with awareness. Rich, you know, I I when I ran across America, it was funny, I I got an invite to to run through the White House. Unbelievable as it seems, you know, Michelle Obama had her person call me and said, you know, I want to meet this guy when he runs through Washington DC. Come on, you know, will Dean run by the White House? So I was literally the first guy to

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  run into the White House.

• 1:34:31Rich Roll?

  Oh, you actually did that?

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  Oh, it was bizarre. I got, yeah, I mean, the Secret Service opened the gates. They're like, come on, Indy. And I ran right through the halls of the White House, hung a left right out to the south lawn. And there was Michelle Obama waiting for me. But she said something I thought that was really insightful. She said, you know, Dean, what you're doing matters. She said, you know, we we can't legislate this country back into shape. You know, sure, we can, you know, pass laws to take soda pop out of, you know, vending machines in schools and and this and that. But people have got to want to eat better. And they've got to want to exercise. And you're leading by example. We need people to set example. We don't need politicians that are not in shape, that are not eating well, telling us,

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  you know, here's the law that you got to eat well, because people won't do it. So I think that it takes more, it's going to take, you know, it's going to take a village. It's going to take an army of people that promote this idea of of, you know, wanting to be better. And I think I think that's going to change. I think with awareness, the obesity problem eventually is going to change. But it starts with the kids. So I do a lot of talks to schools across, you know, across the world. I was just in Greece, and I spoke to a number of schools in Greece. You know, even though I was doing this ultra marathon, I mean, I made time in my schedule to go to these schools and talk to these kids. And you know, I think it's gonna take more and more activity like that by everyday people like me to really turn this thing around.

• 1:35:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I wake up in the morning and I think, what am I doing? And what can I do that will have the biggest impact on the most number of people in terms of helping them transition their lives or transform their lives to be healthier and more active? And then that butts up against training. So I'm like, well, if I'm on my bike for five hours a day getting ready for this race, is that the most effective use of my time in carrying this message? Sometimes it's yes. And right now, I'm finding it to be no. You know, like, sitting here with you, I think, is a better use of my time today than as much as I'd like to be running up that mountain right now. You know what I mean?

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  You and me both, brother. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:42Rich Roll?

  That, you know, this conversation will be more helpful to people than whether or not I can make it to the peak over there today. And I struggle with that because I love, you know, I love competing and I love the training, I love everything about it, and I don't want to lose that. But I'm also trying to sort of embrace this idea that, you know, I do have a little bit of a platform, and I feel a responsibility to serve that effectively.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  We think alike. I'll tell you, I struggle with those same challenges. And that is probably the hardest thing for me to deal with right now is, you know, I want to go and train like crazy. I mean, it's kind of like, I feel pent up, like I should be out there training. But then again, you know, I did a couple of the interviews this morning on, you know, I did one with ESPN, and they're talking about my involvement with Action for Healthy Kids. And I thought, you know, it's worth it. I spend an hour with someone on a phone call that, you know, it's almost like, you know, these route questions, but... Without, you know, spreading that word, without the media and the power of the media, you're not going to influence people. And I think influencing people, to me, is more

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  important than, you know, winning another trophy.

• 1:37:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  It's a hard trade-off, yeah.

• 1:38:02Rich Roll?

  I know one of your big lifetime goals is this idea of running a marathon in every country in the world, right? And it seems like that's sort of been hanging out there for a while now. And so I'm interested in, you know, whether you're going to make that happen. Is that being delayed? Is it logistical? Or is it because of what we're talking about right now that it's not happening today?

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Well, I'll just, I'll start by answering your question. It's a combination of each of those. And then I'll tell the listeners, you know, what I'm hoping to do, and that is to run a marathon in every country of the world in a one-year timeframe. So kind of doing what I did with the 50 marathons in 50 states in the US, but going global. And, you know, right now, there are 109 countries that actually have organized marathons, and there's 198 total countries. So the logistics...

• 1:38:55Rich Roll?

  There's only 198?

• 1:38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:57Rich Roll?

  I thought there was like 205. Well, it changes every year.

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  Well, it changes every year. And, you know, it depends on how you, you know, divvy up countries. I mean, you know, you look at the UK, which is considered one country, but, you know, you can't just run a marathon in Britain because, you know, the Irish will get teed off. And then the Scottish will, and the Welsh will. So, you know, there's four nations. It might just be considered one country, but I'm going to run all four nations. And, yeah, I mean, I'll be honest. It's been a challenge that is tapping me out. It's beyond me. I've, you know, I've hit so many hurdles and so many stumbling blocks, you know, between trying to get all the passports and permits to get into every

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  country, and then finding sponsors and everything. I mean...

• 1:39:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's not a cheap affair.

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  No, it's not a cheap affair. And it's, it's, it could be a very incredible affair in that I'm inviting, you know, the local country folks from each of the nations to come out and run with me. Maybe not the full marathon, but some duration thereof. And I think the world could use something like that right now. I mean, you look at the conflict that's going on. You know, maybe we should stop shooting at each other and go for a run together.

• 1:40:11Rich Roll?

  I think it's the perfect marriage of what we were just talking about. The advocacy and the endurance, because it involves the travel. So your feet on the ground in all these different places where you'll get a bunch of media and you'll have the ability to impact people, you know, profoundly in their port of call. And you get to then take it to the next country and the story is so fantastic. So I think that's a great investment of your time and energy, because it is the perfect marriage of the two worlds. That, you know, you're trying to impact people and you're also, you have this love of sport and here they are, you know, perfectly married. So I hope you can make it happen.

• 1:40:55Speaker 01

  I wish that I was wealthy enough, I could finance it myself and I would. But the reality is that I'm not. So I've got to find that, you know, the right sponsors to work with, that, you know, that their philosophies are aligned with mine. And, you know, that it's a very authentic relationship. I've certainly, you know, The North Face, who's been one of my sponsors for a long time, has said they want to play. They can't afford the whole thing. But I think, you know, The North Face is the perfect expedition company to support something like this. I need to find some other sponsors where they see a benefit. I'm naive. I mean, it's, there's, you know, it's

• 1:41:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there has to be an ROI.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  There's got to be a commercial.

• 1:41:34Rich Roll?

  Have you thought about crowdfunding? That sort of extra portion that you would need? Because that could be interesting.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  It could be. And a lot of people have written to me and said, you know, I would support this. I still haven't gotten comfortable with the, you know, this whole, this crowdfunding thing. I don't know.

• 1:41:52Rich Roll?

  Talk to your kids. Get over that. I know it's a weird thing because you're asking people to give you money to do this thing. But I think that, that this is where all of this is headed. And I think there'd be a lot of people who would feel Great about supporting something like this. And I think the piece that you're missing that I understand where you're coming from, like it feels like a selfish endeavor, like why should somebody else pay for this thing that I want to do that's fun. But, but I think it gives, it allows people to be connected to the journey themselves and they can sort of take a small piece of ownership in that and feel a sense of pride that they helped facilitate this extraordinary thing. So I'd encourage you to think about it.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  Well, I know with, you know, all I've got to reflect back on is the, you know, the 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days experience. And, you know, we invited other runners to come join me at marathons. And, you know, because a lot of these marathons were self organized, you know, like in Iowa on Tuesday, where's the marathon? So we contacted the race directors for the most prominent marathon in that state and said, you know, when we're in your state on this day, will you recreate your marathon? I mean, will you set up your official starting line? Let us follow your sanctioned certified course and finish at your official finish line. So that we had a record, you know, of completing this marathon. And we had permits for up to 50 people to run with me at all these, you know, recreated

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  marathons. You can go on inactive and just sign up to register. And we, after about 10 marathons, every single marathon was completely sold out. We had waiting lists sometimes of 200 people. It was such a great endeavor and so many runners turned out. And to this day, I see people all the time with, they've got their endurance 50 t-shirt on. They're like, that was the best marathon. You remember that? We were in Kentucky on Thursday and it was raining and there was 50 of us and it was, it was just, I'll never forget that experience. So perhaps you're right. Perhaps.

• 1:43:54Rich Roll?

  Well, that could be like, it would almost be like a hybrid Kickstarter sort of thing because you could say, come and run with me when I'm in this country, if it's not a sanctioned marathon and maybe, you know, a portion of those funds could just go towards supporting the overall adventure. So they're getting something out of it. They're getting an experience out of it, but it's also contributing to the overall goal.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Well, you see, now I've learned some from this interview. I mean, that's what I'm saying. I've kind of, you know, I've, it's the Peter Principle. I've risen to my level of incompetence trying to get this thing pulled off, and maybe that's what I need to do. Yeah.

• 1:44:30Rich Roll?

  Well, it's exciting. Well, if there's anything I can do to help you with that, I'd be happy to.

• 1:44:34Speaker 01

  How big's your paycheck? How big's your bank account?

• 1:44:37Rich Roll?

  Not so big. North Korea. How's that happening?

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  Oh, you know, North Korea, you know, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, the list goes on. People have been incredibly supportive in those countries, and the State Department has been wonderful. I mean, they've said, "We're completely behind this, and, you know, we'll help you where we can." The problem is when there's something like, you know, ISIS or another global crisis, which seemed to be endless this last year, they just say, "You know, Dean, we're sorry, we gotta go dark. I mean, we can't, you know, we've got a major crisis on our hands. We just can't, you know, devote any bandwidth to your project right now. We're completely behind it. When, you know, when things settle, they simmer down a bit, well, you know, but it seems like it's been ongoing."

• 1:45:27Rich Roll?

  This is where you call Michelle Obama up and say, "Remember what you told me on the South Lawn? Time to call that favor in. If you want me to be that inspiration..."

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  It's been some of that political capital I've built up, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:39Rich Roll?

  What, uh, what is something about you that never gets asked that, I mean, you do all these interviews, pretty much the same questions over and over and over again, and maybe you read stuff about yourself in the media and you're like, "They're not getting it right, they're not seeing it, or they're misquoting me," or, you know, what's the question that you wish someone would ask you that never does, or what people, you know, don't really know about the real Dean?

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  You can say nothing.

• 1:46:06Rich Roll?

  You can say nothing. It's all.

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  You wanna hear about my suspicious mole? Yeah. No, you know, I think to your earlier question, I think some people think that, you know, I'm in it for the money and I'm in it just for Dean. A lot of people used to say, you know, he's just in it for Dean. And I think that, you know, you've discovered, and it's anyone who knows me, that that's not the case at all. It's, that's, you know, I'm not in it for me. I'm in it because it's what I love to do and I love to help others be the best that they can be. You know, also, I think that I don't have an ego. I think some people think he's a big egomaniac. And I think you've discovered, I don't have an ego. And I'm not surrounded by, you know, people say, oh, your publicist's doing a great job. He gets so much coverage. Like, publicist? You know, moi? What publicist?

• 1:46:53Speaker 01

  I don't have a publicist. So it's, you know, I've kind of built everything I've got on my own. I'm just really a simple guy. I mean, this might shock a lot of people. I don't even own a car.

• 1:47:05Rich Roll?

  You don't?

• 1:47:06Speaker 01

  I don't own a car. No, I mean, look at you, like, you don't? Yeah, I mean, I had a sponsor, Volkswagen, and, you know, our contract came up for renewal. I'm like, you know, guys, I don't, I'm sorry, I don't feel good about this sponsorship. I gotta, you know, they gave me a brand new car. I'm like, I don't drive. I mean, I literally do not drive, so I don't feel good about, you know, the sponsorship.

• 1:47:29Rich Roll?

  So when you need to go, like, you're going out to eat, like, you just run down to the restaurant and go pick up milk at the grocery store?

• 1:47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. I have different sized backpacks. Yeah. Yeah, I literally do. And, you know, the only time I need a ride is getting to the airport. And I just, I have a guy that takes me to the airport and a guy brings me home. Other than that, I really just run everywhere. That's what I love about living where I live. I mean, it's all accessible.

• 1:47:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is the perfect place for you. We gotta wrap it up here, but I wanna, I wanna kind of end this with a question.

• 1:48:06Rich Roll?

  Which has to do with transformation. You know, I think there's a lot of people that listen to the show who are struggling with how to make changes in their own life. They're inspired by your story. They see, you know, how you were able to kind of transform your life wholesale. And I think the big stumbling block for a lot of people is, how do I start? You know, like, what's, what's something that, that I can do today that can shift this energy or help me, you know, see my way through towards a different life experience? So if there's any kind of tangible tools that have been helpful to you that might be inspirational or helpful to the people that are listening, I'd love to hear it.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  Well, I'm gonna get somewhat granular and hopefully this will be, you know, useful information, not just kind of high-minded stuff. But I think that, you know, we, we are the product of our habits. And I think that you need to look at where you want to go. So have, you know, some sort of idea of where you're heading, because if you don't know where you, you want to go, you're never gonna find your way there. And then look at your daily habits, even your hourly or minutely habits, and say, are these habits conducive to getting me to where I want to go? So changing little things can lead to big changes. And then the other thing I say to people is just, I, I just say, script your perfect life.

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  And what that means is either sit down in front of a computer or take out a sheet of paper and just say, right now, if I had my ideal life, if everything was exactly how I wanted it, what would it look like? And just write a paragraph about it. Just ramble a paragraph about, you know, you might be, you know, a humanitarian in India, you know, or, or not. You might be a famous, you know, movie star, whatever it might be. Write down what your perfect life would look like. You know, who would you live with? Where would you live? What would you be doing? Write these things down. And until you write these things down, you don't know where you want to go. You don't have any idea of, of what you want to be.

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  And I think once you script your perfect life, then you somewhat have a, an idea and a road, and you can develop a roadmap to getting to where you want to go. And I think a lot of people originally think, oh, you know, I want to be a billionaire. That's kind of my perfect life. But then when they think it through, they're like, nah, money doesn't mean that much to me, or I don't need that much money. That's not really what's going to make me the happiest. What's going to make me the happiest is, you know, I want to be a horticulturist. I love plants. You know, I want to start a gardening service. So I think scripting your perfect life and then looking at, you know, those habits that will get you to where you want to go is kind of the recipe for transformation.

• 1:51:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I like that. I think that, I would add to that, that you have to work backwards from that and look and sort of create that path and figure out what it, like you said, what is the daily habit or what is it that I could do today? Even if it's just, let me make a phone call and see if there's a class on horticulture in my area, like just the simplest thing that you could do that's easily attainable in your day that will begin to generate momentum, you know? Because the more you can generate that momentum, then it becomes a self-perpetuating trajectory that's more likely to lead to your desired outcome. And I would add to that, creating community and accountability around whatever it is that you're seeking, right?

• 1:51:45Rich Roll?

  You need people around you who are supporting you, but who are also giving you objective feedback, saying, you're off course here, or, yeah, you said you wanted to do this and now you're, you know, doing this other thing. What's up?

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  I couldn't agree more. And the other, you know, I'll keep adding to this list, I think we're hitting on some good topics, is changing what you put in your mouth. You know, to me, I know you and I will debate this forever, but, you know, plant-based diet, which I largely follow, is fantastic, but I would still say any sort of refined foods, any packaged goods, you know, once I cut those things out of my life, my energy level, my motivation was so much higher. And you need motivation, you need energy to see these things through. And, you know, to start with the very habit of what you put in your mouth is probably the hardest thing to change ever. But if you can do that, you learn a lot about what's going on internally in your mind that

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  allowed you to make that shift. So I just say, you know, really look at what you're putting in your mouth as the first habit to change.

• 1:52:49Rich Roll?

  I can't overstate that. Everything that's happened to me was because I changed my diet. You know, people look at my story and they're like, "Oh, well, you did all this stuff. Well, what if you were eating paleo?" Do you think you could... It doesn't matter. Like, I changed my diet. It shifted my consciousness, my perspective. It created a new level of energy that allowed me to explore another side to how I was living. And that created... And then that developed momentum. And then now I'm sitting in your house, having a podcast with you, which is the most unexpected and bizarre, unpredictable thing I would have ever imagined. Like, this is not the life that I thought I was going to be living, but it was all because I changed my diet.

• 1:53:31Speaker 01

  Well, and, you know, I'll conclude with saying, yeah, my next book is kind of the secret sauce of how you do that. Because, you know, you certainly had a moment, like a, you know, a come-to-Jesus moment where, you know, you transformed. And not everyone has that moment. So, how do you use kind of those lessons, especially for someone who's not quite as compulsive as you, to actually change your diet? So, you know, what sort of paradigm shifts can you make internally? Because it's easy for you and I to preach, "Change your diet, change your diet. You know, I promise you, you'll feel better." But it's not easy to do in practice.

• 1:54:07Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:54:08Speaker 01

  And, yeah.

• 1:54:08Rich Roll?

  And I didn't do it... I didn't just wake up one day with everything being great and say, "I'm gonna change it." I did it because I was in pain, because I was desperate, you know? And you can't impose that on somebody. And not everybody reaches that kind of moment in their life where they're blessed with that level of willingness to like, do anything it takes to change their circumstances. But I do think that if you... The more that you can be centered in the now, like we were talking about earlier, not living in future outcomes that haven't happened yet, or not like, rehashing stories of things that happened in the past, but truly present in the moment, then you begin to become much more aware of the signals that are out there

• 1:54:53Rich Roll?

  that can be like, you know, little kind of stones on the trail to, say... Here, come this way, or come that way. You become much more in touch with your instincts, and your instincts become more reliable. And I think that that can take the place of some colossal fuck-up in your life that makes you have to change your life wholesale every night. Because I don't wish that upon anyone. It's very effective if you want to change your life, but it's not the most fun either. So I think that there's an easier, softer way, but it does have to do with really getting grounded and centered in who you are. And the more you can be present and aware of your environment, then the more conscious you are about what you're letting in, what you're not letting in,

• 1:55:36Rich Roll?

  and what the path ahead is that you should take.

• 1:55:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think that, to your point, that starts with turning off the screen, or putting down the screen. I mean, I think that the easiest way to distract yourself is, which so many people do, is they read their texts or their emails while they're eating. And you're not very present if you're doing anything besides just eating, be it watching TV, reading the paper, whatever. So a habit to change is just, when you eat, just eat. Sit in the same, you know, just these simple behavioral things.

• 1:56:12Rich Roll?

  I mean, you have a pretty large social media presence, so how do you manage that in your life without getting caught up in it? I mean, do you just have certain times of the day where you check in on it, and then you turn it off the rest of the day? Or what is your habit around that?

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  That's been a really hard balance to strike. And I think I've just come to the, well, I've got someone helping me now. So someone who's made me more efficient in what I do. They don't necessarily answer. They don't send out, I still, you know, I am the master of all my content. So they've just taught me how to be more efficient. And the one thing I've learned is that, you know, social media is either gonna control you, or you're gonna control it. And at first, it was controlling me. I mean, I just felt so compulsive to respond. Like, you know, some of these comment, I mean, some of these postings will get, that I put out, will get five, 600 comments. And there's just, it's impossible to answer all of those comments, so.

• 1:57:12Speaker 01

  At a point, you just have to say, you know, there's, there's just gonna be more comments than, than you can answer, and that's just the reality of it. But you can't let it control you. You know, do the best you can and be satisfied with that. And so I just put forth my best effort. And, you know, the one thing I really have, have stressed is that, um, quality of content that I push out. That to me means more than anything. If I can't get back to everyone, um, regarding their comments, then so be it. But in every bit of content that I push out, um, my commitment is that there's gonna be something of value in, uh, to the recipient of that content. So either, you know, a tidbit of advice or guidance or something that's helped me,

• 1:57:54Speaker 01

  or something that'll make them laugh, or something insightful. But I'm never gonna just push out content, you know, either as an ad or whatever. Even, you know, working with my sponsors, I always, um, kind of adjust, uh, any sort of content they want me to push out, especially if it's a promotional sort of thing, to, you know, to tailor it to someone who might actually benefit from whatever it is they're hawking. Because I think that, um, that's why I've got such a loyal following is because I'm, I'm true to these people. I care about them and I'm not just gonna overwhelm them with more noise. Uh, I wanna help them and I wanna, you know, provide, uh, anything that's helped me or any service that might help them. I wanna get it to the right people.

• 1:58:34Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, that, those are good guideposts. I mean, I'm considering taking, uh, like Twitter and email off my cellphone. Which, uh, I interviewed a guy, uh, for the podcast the other day. It's got Josh Ship, who's an amazing guy with a huge social media presence. He's a, he's sort of an expert on teens, works with parents and teens. And, and we were chatting about how social media began to be overwhelming for him and he took it off his phone. And now he, he has like very specific hours when he will engage and others where it's completely off limits. And he said it's transformed his life. And he's more productive and more effective in his communication. So he challenged me to do that.

• 1:59:18Rich Roll?

  Terrifying, so I'm thinking about doing it.

• 1:59:22Speaker 01

  Easier said than done, right?

• 1:59:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly, right? You know, we'll see how it goes. But I like what you had to say about that.

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  Don't give up on this podcast because I love getting, I love listening to this.

• 1:59:30Rich Roll?

  Oh, well, no, this is, this doesn't count.

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, for sure, I'm keeping, if I'm doing anything, I'm doing this. This is, this has been.

• 1:59:37Speaker 01

  Well, you're, you know, if it's any consolation, you're helping a lot of people. I hear it all the time. So, you know, whenever you're feeling tired and beat up by it, just know that you're benefiting a lot of people.

• 1:59:46Rich Roll?

  I appreciate that. But at the end of the day, also, it gives me a great excuse to call someone like you up and get a two hour, have a two hour conversation with them, you know? And when do you get that in life? You know, it's this lost thing. We were talking about being introverted and being personally connected and how important that is to being happy. And it's such a blessing for me to be able to, it's almost like I got the greatest scam going ever. You put a microphone in someone and then I get to like ask them all these questions and it's helped me a lot too. And, but the fact that it's resonating out there is incredibly gratifying and I'm only committed to be, being better and doing, doing more of it and getting better at it. But I appreciate your time, man. Thanks so much.

• 2:00:30Rich Roll?

  You have inspired me tremendously. You inspire millions of people out there and I wish you only the best and that you continue to have wind in your sails.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  Thanks, Rich. Same to you, brother.

• 2:00:42Rich Roll?

  If people want to learn more about you and connect with you, deanharnasus.com, deanharnasus on Twitter.

• 2:00:50Speaker 01

  UltraMarathon.com.

• 2:00:51Rich Roll?

  You're pretty easy to find online.

• 2:00:52Speaker 01

  If you can spell my name, yeah.

• 2:00:54Rich Roll?

  And do you have any upcoming, well, you're going to New York Marathon. Do you have any other like upcoming talks or things where if people want to be able to see you in person, I'm sure there's a schedule on your website, right?

• 2:01:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, they go to my website and look on my schedule. I'm pretty, pretty good about updating that. So, yeah, no, I'm pretty full schedule and people are, you know, people say, are you going to be in Texas? And I'm like, well, you know, not this week. Watch my schedule because it's pretty dynamic, yeah.

• 2:01:22Rich Roll?

  And you're doing this thing with Quarterly.co now, right? With these gift boxes?

• 2:01:28Speaker 01

  These gift boxes.

• 2:01:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, tell me about that.

• 2:01:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that, you know, Quarterly is an interesting service. So Quarterly is, they have a number of curators and these are kind of personalities, if you will. They have, you know, a couple athletes, they have...

• 2:01:41Rich Roll?

  I think Tim Ferriss is doing it.

• 2:01:43Speaker 01

  Tim Ferriss is doing it. They have design, fashion designers, you know, Arianna Huffington's doing it. And it's basically, they come to the curator and they say, you know, "Pick items that are unique to you, that you like, "and put them in a gift box and we'll send these out quarterly." So they came to me and said, you know, "Would you like to do a Quarterly box?" And I said, "Yeah." And I was kind of conflicted because it's a subscription service and people have to sign up for.

• 2:02:14Rich Roll?

  And they don't know what they're going to get.

• 2:02:15Speaker 01

  No, they have no idea. You know, I'm thinking, geez, people are going to be so disappointed when they get my stuff. And, you know, I've really emphasized two things and that's variety and value. So I think if you look at my gift boxes, because I got a couple gift boxes from other curators, I'm like, you know, I'm not going to mention names. I'm like, geez, I don't know if I'd pay that kind of money, you know, for a box like this. So I definitely give a variety of products and devices and services, as well as, you know, if you look at the total value, the retail value of what goes into my box, it's two or, you know, two or three X times the amount that someone's spending against this. And, you know, there's a personalized note in there, so it kind of explains, you know, why I like these things. And a lot of people, you know, a lot of people have gotten back to me and said,

• 2:03:01Speaker 01

  "This is fantastic and you have tried these new things, this is great, I love this." I, you know, and then there's been other people that say, "Oh, you're, you know, "you're selling your soul." And so it's kind of a...

• 2:03:10Rich Roll?

  Wow, you know, you're always going to get that. But I think it's a cool idea, you know, for people that are interested in what you're doing and they can get to... You know, experience some of the products that you like, you know, it's cool.

• 2:03:21Speaker 01

  Well, my original thought was, you know, we all have runners in the family. We all have friends that are runners, you know, or we always need a gift for someone. And you're like, oh, God, the guy's a runner. What the heck do I get him? And I thought this would be a cool gift idea, like, because, you know, I'd get a gift. Yeah. Or you can just buy a one-time, you know, one-time shipping as well. But it hasn't been the case. I mean, most people are subscribing just because they like it themselves.

• 2:03:46Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Cool. So if people want to check that out, just go to quarterly.co.

• 2:03:51Speaker 01

  Quarterly.co, yep.

• 2:03:52Rich Roll?

  Forward slash Dean or something like that?

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  Well, there's a list of all the curators. Yeah, they can, you can choose. Yeah.

• 2:03:58Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 2:03:59Speaker 01

  And I mean, it goes for not just me, but I mean, if you know someone who's a foodie or a techie, whatever, there's, yeah.

• 2:04:05Rich Roll?

  All right, man. I think we did it.

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:08Rich Roll?

  How do you feel?

• 2:04:09Speaker 01

  I feel like going for a run. Another run.

• 2:04:12Rich Roll?

  Let's go run to Paragon.

• 2:04:17Rich Roll?

  Have a good time in New York, man. And this was a pleasure. Let's do it again when your book comes out.

• 2:04:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely, Rich. Good luck to you. Okay.

• 2:04:24Rich Roll?

  Thanks, Dean. Peace. Plants.

• 2:04:34Rich Roll?

  All right, everybody, that's our show. That's it. We're done. We're out of here. How'd you like that? What'd you think? I think it's pretty awesome. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Before I sign off with this week's assignment, a couple of quick announcements. Again, go to ritual.com, check out the stuff that we have on sale through December 20th, plus all our other good stuff. Eat Cookbook, meditation program, merch, t-shirts, nutritional products. Again, $10 off all t-shirts, $10 off my Repair Post Workout Recovery Plant-Based Protein Supplement, and Buy One Get One Free on our B12 Supplement, all through December 20th. If you want to take your plant-based nutrition game to the next level, or you're interested in...

• 2:05:18Rich Roll?

  How to set goals and achieve them. You're feeling stuck in your life? Well, I've got a couple of online courses at MindBodyGreen.com. The first one's called The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition. The second one's called The Art of Living with Purpose. You can find both of them at MindBodyGreen.com. Just click on Video Courses in the upper right corner. Both are multiple hours of streaming video content, downloadable tools, and interactive community. Everything you need to know to get more plants in your active life, or set yourself on a new and healthier nutrition trajectory. Probe deep inside to learn more about what makes you tick, set the right goals for yourself, take those goals across the finish line, and ultimately raise the bar on your personal and athletic life experience. How's that, you guys?

• 2:06:02Rich Roll?

  What else? If you're in LA, this is my invitation to you to stop by our new restaurant, Joy Cafe. Feeling awesome, right in the heart of Westlake Village, off Agora Road. Go to JoyCafe.com, J-O-I-cafe.com, to learn more. And you can find me there at lunch a couple of times a week. So come on by, say hi, get some delicious food, engage Nick and Joy, the proprietors, in a lively conversation. Leave feeling great. If you're interested in listening to the back catalog of the podcast, if you notice on iTunes, they only list the most recent 50. We're now at 115, so more than half

• 2:06:41Rich Roll?

  the catalog is not on iTunes. Do not fret. Get the Rich Roll app. Go to the App Store, or the iTunes App Store. Just type in Rich Roll. You'll see the Rich Roll app for all iOS mobile devices. It's completely free, and it's your free and easy way to access the entire catalog, the whole RRP canon, the RRP oeuvre. And give us a review on iTunes as well, please. That helps us out a lot. Just takes a second. Continue to support the show by telling a friend, using the Amazon banner ad, by donating buttons on the site. Keep Instagramming. Don't forget to tag me at Rich Roll. Assignment.

• 2:07:22Rich Roll?

  Today's theme was really about comfort versus discomfort. Right? Like, the importance of getting out of your comfort zone, the importance of touching struggle, the importance of embracing failure, all of these things. So I want you guys to think a little bit about where you're comfortable in your life, where you're just sort of feeling like it's okay to just coast, right? You know in your heart of hearts, if you really think deeply, if you really look in the mirror honestly, you know there's that thing that you're doing that maybe isn't serving you, but it's just comfortable, and you don't really want to give it up. That's the thing I want you to focus on. Try to identify that one thing. What is it that's holding you back? You know it's holding you back, you

• 2:08:06Rich Roll?

  just don't want to deal with it. You just want... because you don't want to give it up, right? It doesn't matter whether it's, you know, some eating thing, like you like Oreos, or it's some lifestyle habit that doesn't serve you, like you like to stay up too late watching television. It doesn't matter what it is. You all know what it is, if you're being honest with yourself. I want you to think about that thing, and then start making a plan to eradicate it, to get out of your comfort zone. Yeah, it might take a little bit of struggle to push up against that, uh, that habit that you're so comfortable perpetuating to get over it. But if you can give yourself that boost and struggle through

• 2:08:47Rich Roll?

  it and get to the other side, that's when you touch freedom. So think about that this week, you guys. And I'll see you back here next week. Peace. Plants.