Brandi Carlile

Brandi Carlile (Returning to Myself, By the Way, I Forgive You, and The Story) is a Grammy-winning singer-songwriter, producer, activist, and author. Brandi joins Armchair Expert to discuss being a feral kid in rural Washington, navigating her father’s alcoholism, and being denied baptism by her church as a teenager. Brandi and Dax talk about building a career through relentless hustle, working with Rick Rubin and T Bone Burnett, and bringing Joni Mitchell and Tanya Tucker back to the stage and studio. Brandi explains how marriage equality changed her life, why she holds special respect for elders in the LGBTQ community, and how faith, family, and service continue to shape her worldview. Sign up now in the app or at grubhub.com/plus/golddays to unlock exclusive Gold Days deals. Check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds: https://www.allstate.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 0:05Dax Shepard?

  My voice broke there.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Let's leave it. It's very, cause it's a ding ding ding. Oh my gosh, it's a ding ding ding to the episode.

• 0:12Dax Shepard?

  It is.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Her voice breaks in one of her most famous songs.

• 0:16Dax Shepard?

  Really good job. Brandy Carlisle. Brandy Carlisle is an 11 time Grammy Award winning singer, songwriter and producer. Her albums are, by the way, I forgive you, In These Silent Days, The Story, Returning to Myself, currently on the Human Tour. For dates and tickets, go to brandycarlisle.com. Guys, I loved her.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  She was, this was such a fun.

• 0:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I really, really loved her.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  And she sings for us.

• 0:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, she sings for us. Please enjoy Brandy Carlisle. We get support from Quince.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait.

• 0:58Dax Shepard?

  I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my season. Give me the layers. Give me the boots. Give me a reason to wear something other than a t-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince because fall is when your wardrobe actually has to show up. And everything at Quince is 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We're talking 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at $60.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  $60. $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing. Gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is because they go straight to the factories. They skip the middlemen and they just hand you the savings. The stuff isn't trendy. It's the kind of pieces you grab over and over because they work every time.

• 1:38Dax Shepard?

  The 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters for me are it. When I look at Steve McQueen, this man owned a couple of sweaters he wore all the time and he looks iconic.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  It's a uniform.

• 1:48Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  And Quince isn't just about the clothes. They have hotel quality bedding, cookware, bath essentials, thoughtfully designed furniture. You can really go there and outfit your entire apartment or house. So if you're in need of any kind of fall refresh at home too, same quality, same attention to detail for every corner of your life.

• 2:06Dax Shepard?

  Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince. App for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. We get support from AG1. Fall is that time when your body and mind are getting ready for the winter. You're settling in, bracing for the cold. Your body's already running a deficit from the shorter days and broken sleep patterns. You don't want a nutrient deficit stacked on top of that, too.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  That's where your AG1 routine earns its spot. It's not fixing your sleep or your alarm time. It's giving your body what it needs so the dark mornings don't tank you before you even start. One scoop cold water every morning before anything else.

• 2:55Dax Shepard?

  AG1 Next Gen has 75 plus ingredients, vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, superfoods, backed by four separate gold standard clinical trials. Key nutrient levels improved with three months of consistent use.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  That's the part people miss. It's not a one day fix. It's what happens when you stay consistent.

• 3:13Dax Shepard?

  It's an easy, everyday thing. I've added it to my morning routine and I'm going to tell you, I actually love the taste of it. It's like Pavlovian. I drink it and I know I'm going to get that little vitamin buzz.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Well, that's also the thing. When you do it first thing in the morning, you already feel kind of self-esteem because you're like, I already did something good for myself.

• 3:31Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Go to drinkag1.com/dax and for a limited time, get a free immunity bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/dax. And after checkout, be sure to let them know that Armchair Expert sent you.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  So happy to have you.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  And I'm really excited to talk to you guys. This is awesome.

• 4:16Dax Shepard?

  I purposely was not around because I knew the stakes were really high. You just met Anna?

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, she was great.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Okay, she was so nervous to meet you.

• 4:23Dax Shepard?

  She's never asked in eight years to meet anybody.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  She was like, I have to. She's a huge fan.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Well, I have this thing called Girls Just Want a Weekend every year.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:31Dax Shepard?

  Mexico?

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's like life-changing for a lot of people.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Because you get lured into it thinking it's a festival, but really it's like a whole experience. You gotta come.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  You gotta have the girls come.

• 4:41Dax Shepard?

  It's all female performers, right?

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:43Dax Shepard?

  Are men welcome?

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Men are treated like absolute celebrities.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, the way that we basically hoist you onto our shoulders and carry you like a trophy.

• 4:54Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  If you come to our festival.

• 4:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. Okay, now I wanna go. I love the idea being-

• 4:59Speaker 02

  We have merch for just men that says like, I Survived Girls Just Want a Weekend.

• 5:02Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's great.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  We sing, "Let's sing it for the boys."

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Oh, hell, yeah.

• 5:08Dax Shepard?

  Give these boys a hand.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Okay, I think you'd do great there, Dax.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Well, I just think when men will leave the country to attend a festival with all women or non-binary headliners, it's like, yeah.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  Those men are rad.

• 5:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay, good, good, good, good. I was reading about it, and you must know that we heard the most sincere and authentic review of this festival from Anna.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, she had so much fun.

• 5:31Dax Shepard?

  And I had a million questions. I'm like, is it a lesbian festival? And she's like, yes and no. Not overtly, but yes.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot of gay men are starting to come too.

• 5:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  There's this like whole contingency of really sapphically focused gay men that are really enjoying it.

• 5:50Dax Shepard?

  Okay. This sounds like the happiest group imaginable, to be honest.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  I think that's why it's life-changing.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  It's pretty good.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's awesome.

• 5:58Dax Shepard?

  Kristen has described it, she's not Ben, but just given all the feedback from Anna, she said, you know, it's the polar opposite of Woodstock 99, if you're trying to think of a vibe.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  It couldn't be anymore. In one way or another, it's a response to that.

• 6:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but you saw Lilith Fair when you were a kid. Yeah, you went to the Lilith Fair Festival?

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Yep, that's actually what I think got me wanting to do this was that.

• 6:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. What age were you when you went to that?

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Seventeen. So, so formative. Yeah. I had this one experience in particular where I was just this little scallywag kid, all sunburned and drinking Mountain Dews, like these big refillable Mountain Dews all day. And I like took my bucket of Mountain Dew to have it refilled to the Mountain Dew stand. And there was this lesbian standing in line behind me and she goes, honey, what are you getting to drink? And I was like, a Mountain Dew. And she goes, you need some water and you're sunburned. And she put sunscreen on my shoulders.

• 6:48Dax Shepard?

  And you're gonna die in a couple hours.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  On one hand, I was like, hmm. But then I got older and I was like, I need a festival like that, you know?

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  That's like, we're taking care of each other.

• 6:58Dax Shepard?

  Looking out for each other.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  That is the opposite of Woodstock.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 7:02Dax Shepard?

  It does make me think what you tell your children when you have children, which is like, okay, if you're alone, you find a police officer.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:09Dax Shepard?

  You cannot find a police officer, which you likely will not. Find a woman with kids.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what I say. We say, find a mom.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly.

• 7:16Dax Shepard?

  And go to a woman.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  A single woman.

• 7:18Dax Shepard?

  Keep going down the list.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  Find a lesbian. If you can't find a woman with kids, go to a lesbian.

• 7:21Dax Shepard?

  And last is like, find a dude in a Corvette with his shirt off.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  You might as well just run into the street.

• 7:28Dax Shepard?

  Where was the Lilith? Was it in Gasworks Park?

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Oh, good question. You know, Seattle.

• 7:32Dax Shepard?

  I've drank in a lot of forties at Gasworks.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. I dated a girl for nine years that was from Marysville, Everett.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  No, it's at the gorge.

• 7:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, perfect.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  In fact, that's where it started, 1997.

• 7:42Dax Shepard?

  Perfect home for that.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  And that was the year Tracy Chapman was on that lineup. Sarah and the Indigo Girl. I mean, it was amazing. Erykah Badu was on the year. Sinead O'Connor was there the year I was there.

• 7:54Dax Shepard?

  I love Erykah Badu.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Oh, so do I.

• 7:56Dax Shepard?

  Ravens?

• 7:57Speaker 02

  Dale.

• 7:58Dax Shepard?

  Ravensdale. A lot of Dales in that area.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  There might be a Dale or two.

• 8:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, there's a Dale or two out there.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Couple Dales.

• 8:03Dax Shepard?

  Now Ravensdale, it seems almost impossible because it's 28 miles from Seattle, yet it has a population of 500 people.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Well, Seattle's like that. It's a bit like Anchorage in a way where you can land in Seattle, get yourself like the most delicious silky cappuccino you've ever drank and then- A half an hour later, see a bear.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah.

• 8:22Dax Shepard?

  And be potentially lost.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what I love about it.

• 8:25Dax Shepard?

  That is cool. The history of the town fascinated me because it's a coal mining town. You don't associate Washington with coal mining.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  You kind of can. I mean, it was one of the first in terms of that Ravensdale is a bit of a subsidiary of another town called Black Diamond.

• 8:40Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Which is a neighboring town and actually Loretta Lynn lived there.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 8:44Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, for a time. And yeah, when I was a kid, we were running around, there's coal mines everywhere. You got to watch out for mine shafts and everything.

• 8:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  I got my last spanking for playing in a mine shaft.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh.

• 8:56Dax Shepard?

  I'm so jealous. I would have loved a mine shaft when I was a kid. We liked rock quarries because there was water in them.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  And mine shafts, they got water in them too.

• 9:04Dax Shepard?

  I bet.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  But they're bottomless.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Okay. So you like to flirt with danger. If you're playing over there, you're a rascal a little bit. I would stand far away.

• 9:13Dax Shepard?

  I think feral is the right word, right?

• 9:15Speaker 01

  That tracks. Okay.

• 9:16Dax Shepard?

  So I grew up in a rural area too, and I will say, it's not necessarily what I wanted for my kids, but boy, do I cherish the amount of, we were just lighting stuff on fire. I mean, you're allowed to do whatever came across your mind because there's no supervision and there's no one around to catch you.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  What parts of it don't you want for your kids?

• 9:34Dax Shepard?

  I, again, this is probably rooted in all my own personal stuff, but it's like too much privacy out there. Too many places to hide and just like I couldn't get caught lighting shit on fire. Adults weren't getting caught for stuff and there's a general, that part of it I don't love.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, you're exactly right.

• 9:53Dax Shepard?

  Look, and again, I would love to see dad on this, but where I was from, we had to have over indexed. We had a serial killer, a small town. Every single person was molested. I know. I just feel like it's safer here.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, we don't do sleepovers.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of people don't anymore.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  It's amazing. That is something about our generation, having realized that maybe we all had too much freedom, whether we lived in a rural area or not.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  I was trying to explain that to my kids. I would be like, we would get on our bikes. We'll be eight o'clock in the morning. And we would maybe come home at some point after dark and no one knew where we were, how we were getting money or candy.

• 10:28Dax Shepard?

  We're even curious. Didn't even ask you what your day was like.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 10:33Dax Shepard?

  And back to what's dangerous about it is like, I know you know, because I had it a million times. If my kids run into somebody dicey on the street, which they do, it's LA, there's a bunch of homeless people. They always have someone in sight they could yell to. How many times when you're a kid and you're out in the woods or you're somewhere and you come across an adult, like a sold adult? And it's freaky. You know, there's nobody around and this weird adult's in the woods for some reason too. You have a lot of those moments when you grow, I think, rural.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  I do, and I didn't experience any significant traumas, but I can see the near misses now. How many times I got close to my battleship? It's crazy. Like, I remember getting in this guy's truck that was like the town scary guy, but he told me that there were trout biting in this quarry. And I was like, no, that's an empty pond, this is full of water. And he's like, no, there's a stream that's dumping kokany into it. I'll show you right where they're biting. And I was like, I shouldn't get into your truck, but I want those kokany.

• 11:28Dax Shepard?

  I can't imagine loving fishing now. Like, that's what you people do to go get drugs. Like, I don't trust this guy, but fuck, I do want coke.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Kokany, kokany.

• 11:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  No, I did, and it was fine, but I mean, near miss, right? Or even that the guy would put a 13-year-old girl in his truck-

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Holy crap, that is horrifying.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  -without our parents' permission and then totally innocuously take her to shore where to catch trout. It's kind of unbelievable.

• 11:51Dax Shepard?

  You got lucky-ish.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  I got lucky every time, but a lot of folks don't. So I actually know what you mean about that.

• 11:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's just that element. And again, I love it because I got through it and I feel like I got all my confidence from that because I was navigating these weird situations and dangerous ones and kids were getting hurt. And all that, I think, you enter the real world and you're like, I gotta get a job and pay for bills? That's fine.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  The question is, how do you recreate those kinds of experiences for your kids without exposing them to the possibility of real trauma? You want them to have the street smarts we have. You want them to understand that not everybody is upper-middle-class or privileged in a way, but you can't falsify or recreate.

• 12:28Dax Shepard?

  I know, I'm coming across as the kind of parent, we're actually quite free-range.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Really?

• 12:32Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, like, we were in Denmark and we're like, cool, this is Travolli's Gardens. It's huge, but it's all encapsulated. We're like- Have fun. We will see you in six hours. Here is a credit card. You know, like, go.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  And they're 11 and 13, am I right?

• 12:46Dax Shepard?

  At the time, they were nine and 11. Yeah.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  With other kids too, though, right?

• 12:52Dax Shepard?

  Well, they were split up. So, yes, Lily went with maybe Lincoln, but Dolly and Delta got it in their mind. They were going to set a record on a roller coaster and they rode it, you know, 60 times in a row or something. So they did split up. They were in another country and it's just like, yeah, it'll work out. They're smart. So I do have that side of me too.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Wow. Yeah. And that's how you do it. You set up those situations of kind of controlled chaos.

• 13:12Dax Shepard?

  It's within reason. Yeah. Okay. What were mom and dad like? What were they up to? I think we share an addict father.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  We may share the actual one. We don't know. We don't know.

• 13:27Dax Shepard?

  I think that'd be cuter, but yeah, I got the bum end of that stick.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  That would be huge. What a revelation.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  This would go so viral.

• 13:36Dax Shepard?

  Well, he was a car salesman.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Biggest episode of all time.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I grew up in that kind of house.

• 13:42Dax Shepard?

  How old were they when they had, you're the middle?

• 13:44Speaker 02

  I'm the oldest daughter and I'm the oldest grandchild on both sides. So I have all that superiority complex going for me. And this enormous sense of responsibility to balance it out. So they were young. They were like 19 and 20, or 20 and 21, like right around there. And they got married while they were pregnant with me. And I'm not sure how long it took for my dad to sort of succumb to pretty severe alcoholism, or if he kind of was already always drinking. I may actually know this, but I'm not recalling it off the top of my head. But yeah, he had a really, really bad drinking problem most of my childhood.

• 14:19Dax Shepard?

  Was he employed?

• 14:20Speaker 02

  He was employed initially at the Boeing.

• 14:23Dax Shepard?

  In Tacoma?

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you gotta build airplanes. You gotta stay sober.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do.

• 14:27Dax Shepard?

  Of all the jobs we want people to be sober on.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  You know, he would go and recover and he would go to rehab and he would get to the point where he would even be somebody else's sponsor. Like he'd be clean that long. It made it that much more heartbreaking when he would fall.

• 14:41Dax Shepard?

  And would you see the signs percolating up? Did you ever feel like you had a sense of when those times were coming?

• 14:47Speaker 02

  No, it always surprised me. And I actually think maybe now that I'm an adult, that's why I never let anything surprise me ever. I don't even like getting a birthday present. I'm like, tell me what it is and we'll talk about it.

• 14:59Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:00Dax Shepard?

  When he was drunk, what version of a drunk was he?

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Just unpredictable. He's really smart, hyper articulate, kind of a victim of a overactive mind. And alcohol is obviously something that he used to sort of quell that. But because he's so naturally, he would not like this, but quite dogmatic and marinating and rhetoric all the time. His sobriety would become a family religion. So we would be in Al-Anon, Al-Teen. We would be learning that we'd have the slogans, we had the one liners. And then he would fall off the wagon and it would feel like we fell off a skyscraper.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, your identity, all of your identities.

• 15:38Dax Shepard?

  And the whole friendship group is all members of AA, I'm sure.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  I wish. I think that's part of the problem.

• 15:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Is that, you know, you kind of described that small town situation. No, they were not. And my dad, he doesn't have like an ego, but he's kind of self-important in a way. And just if what is needed in theory for an addict to stay clean is a positive friend group, he doesn't believe that applies to him. He's the one guy.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  He can do it on his own.

• 16:06Dax Shepard?

  I'm always like, when I entered recovery, they're like, you know, here's six things that work for people. And I'm like, let's see if I can do it with one. Get three months, relapse, and then come back. I'm open to doing two of the things. I mean, literally, I had to get worn down over years before I was finally like, okay, I'll do all the fucking things. What, I have to believe in God? Okay. I need a sponsor.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Well, it's still all about acceptance, acceptance that you have a real issue. Obviously, that cliche where that acknowledgement is the hardest hurdle or problem is real. All of that is just to get to, yeah, I have a real problem. Because until then, you're like, I have a little problem. I could probably just do with one of these things.

• 16:45Dax Shepard?

  There's an arrogance, like the normal people need all this. But I'm exceptional. So what will I need? Maybe three of these things?

• 16:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. If any of them. And then there's to your point, like, have you seen that Leonardo DiCaprio meme? I love it so much. Much where he's got that kind of face and he's holding a martini or whatever. The meme is like how wine drunks look at regular drunks.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  It's like, oh, we drink wine.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  There's always someone worse.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  There's always someone worse. And then there's that cliche of the rock bottom thing. It feels like, only time I've seen people get sober and like stay sober. This is just a theory from a person who's not an addict, by the way, but is that the shit has to really hit the fan.

• 17:24Dax Shepard?

  Oh, the saying in AA is like, you won't change until your hair is on fire.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:28Dax Shepard?

  And then the other great sayings, which describes your father and myself is like, you can have terminal uniqueness. Which is, I'm so unique and I'm gonna die because of it. Like, I'm so special and different and unique. And I'm gonna die of that uniqueness, but I don't care. I'd rather be that unique.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's almost romantic.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:46Dax Shepard?

  And it feels like it has autonomy. You're in control and it's not. Yeah, you're just unwilling.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  He's sober now, though.

• 17:53Dax Shepard?

  He is.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 17:54Dax Shepard?

  For how long?

• 17:55Speaker 02

  A long time.

• 17:56Dax Shepard?

  That's awesome. Oh, that's awesome. I imagine we inherited the same thing, which I was just like, you know, it's kind of dorky because it's this thing my dad's super into. And then the spirituality that would accompany it, right? It'd be like Course of Miracles and all these other things that tie in with it. What kind of feelings were you having about that whole element?

• 18:14Speaker 02

  About the spiritual element?

• 18:15Dax Shepard?

  The AA and the slogans and all that stuff. Was it like, oh my God, this is embarrassing or?

• 18:20Speaker 02

  I was already more religious than AA when we entered into AA. I was already really into Jesus.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 18:28Dax Shepard?

  And were your parents or just you? You found it on your own?

• 18:31Speaker 02

  It's very weird. My parents were and my dad really was at a time, you know, he's like extremist. So he had extremist moments and is still an extremist. But I had my own path with it. Like I have terminal uniqueness. So I almost died when I was five from meningitis. I just got told so many times that I had like a purpose and that I was like saved for something. And we were all intense and we were all going to church. And so I was like talking to Jesus all the time. I had a whole relationship with this Jesus thing that was kind of independent. I would elect to go to vacation Bible school and Iwana's and youth group and stuff like that. I didn't have groups of. Friends based on it either.

• 19:08Dax Shepard?

  You weren't like idolizing some older kid that was super into it or anything?

• 19:12Speaker 02

  No.

• 19:12Dax Shepard?

  It was just that maybe that near death experience. Your heart stopped a few times during that?

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I was in a coma and everything, yeah. I was just like riding shotgun with his Jesus character.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  And kind of always have been through a lot of turmoil, ups and downs in my life and even things about me that would push me away from it and pull me back and recognize with a lot of gratitude that I have a very unique God perspective.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  And you still do?

• 19:36Speaker 02

  I still do, yeah.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 19:37Dax Shepard?

  What age were you when baptism was supposed to happen?

• 19:40Speaker 02

  I think like 16.

• 19:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so 16 you were supposed to get baptized?

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:45Dax Shepard?

  And what happened?

• 19:46Speaker 02

  There was this kind of troubling church, actually, in our town, a big surprise, in the neighboring town, Black Diamond. They kind of looked for troubled kids that were in troubled home situations and stressed out, you know. And at this point, me and my brother already dropped out of high school. And we were in trouble cleaning buses at the bus barn and this church bus pulled up and told us to get in, picked up my brother, and I didn't go.

• 20:13Dax Shepard?

  They should have told you Steelhead were running.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, all they had to tell me, all they had to tell me was Steelhead were running in the green.

• 20:19Dax Shepard?

  There's a car at the church? Okay.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  I'm like, it didn't look that bad. I got in the quarry guys' truck. No, but I didn't go. Eventually, I started going to the church, found it compelling, went to one of those camps, you know, they go to these camps. I don't think, you guys have ever experienced these church camp things?

• 20:34Dax Shepard?

  I've not been to one, but kids went to them where I grew up.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of friends.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Okay, deeply emotional and transformative for young kids, these camps, these pastors, they're cool. They know how to talk to young people. They know how to play on our guilt and our sense of rebelliousness. And so it compelled me to want to get baptized. I felt that there was just too much in the world that I couldn't handle without making my faith official.

• 21:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  So I did the thing that you do in the evangelical church where the pastor like prays for everybody to close their eyes and then somebody comes forward and I came forward. So I was gonna get baptized and everybody's crying and clapping and it's all very charismatic. And you spend like a week taking classes and doing Bible study and spending time with the pastor and everything. And I had done it. I did all those things. And when the day came around for my baptism at the church, The whole town, which is like not many people and my parents, troubling as it all was, we were a unit. We were together. We were all a big dysfunctional family. I was out of the closet. I had a girlfriend, a short little haircut.

• 21:39Dax Shepard?

  Can we do one second on that? Being openly gay where I'm from, in a rural area in the 80s, it would have been really hard. Was it different in Washington?

• 21:48Speaker 02

  No, I was the only one I knew.

• 21:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Where did you get the confidence to own that and not run from that at all?

• 21:54Speaker 02

  It's a really good question. It's just for me, it's just always been such an obvious part of who I am. When I saw other gay people on TV, you know, like Ellen DeGeneres coming out in the 90s, when I saw gay artists like the Indigo Girls, and I was a huge Elton Jean fan, and I read all of these biographies, and then there were movies that kind of touched on it, Boys on the Side in Philadelphia. I recognized there was a community or a culture outside of my life.

• 22:21Dax Shepard?

  That makes sense. Your heroes were often gay.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. And all my friends were going through puberty and they wanted to make out with boys and I wanted to make out with girls. I just did. I wanted to make out with them. I couldn't deny that.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  But people do.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  But they do.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  All the time. So it's amazing.

• 22:35Dax Shepard?

  I think when they're not in cities as well, they tend to even more.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  I just have always been pretty oblivious to just not being cool. You know, my favorite pants growing up were like cow print jeans. I didn't know that people were laughing at my obsessions or my eccentricities. And so I was like, yeah, I'm gay. Everybody knows I'm gay. They're not that into it. It's not a popular thing. I'm not taking a whole lot of shit for it, but I'm not being accepted either. And again, kind of oblivious to that. Just listening to the Indigo Girls, loving my life.

• 23:04Dax Shepard?

  They probably don't mind that you're gay. They're nervous, is every girl gonna turn gay now in the school?

• 23:10Speaker 02

  I don't think I had that kind of influence.

• 23:11Dax Shepard?

  I think that's what happened.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  If I could have turned to one girl gay in my school, that would have been awesome.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  You're like, I was trying.

• 23:17Dax Shepard?

  Like when I talk to friends of mine who I adore that live in the South, the way they'll tell me that like Disney's goal is to convince all kids to be trans. I'm like, I think you think that. Like I do think you think that. Yeah, I think that's a real thought.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:31Dax Shepard?

  And I think similarly, like I think a lot of people back then were just like, yeah, I don't care. What she does, but is she gonna influence my daughter?

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Yes, this idea of a bad influence and quotes.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  There may have been some of that. I mean, I remember hearing a lot of words like that thrown around town or in my family or in the 90s, like, oh, she's militant, or she's hard, or are you gonna put it in our faces?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  These kind of, or like, love the sinner, hate the sinner. We love you, but we don't accept your lifestyle kind of thing.

• 23:57Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  And that unfortunately just had to be good enough for me back then.

• 24:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  And I was absolutely fine with that.

• 24:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you weren't sweating that too much.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  I mean, I wasn't. I knew it was a countercultural thing.

• 24:08Dax Shepard?

  And your parents, they were cool, obviously?

• 24:10Speaker 02

  No.

• 24:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Not really.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Same, same situation.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  They weren't cool, but they weren't not cool. It was something everybody found kind of quite annoying about me, if I'm right.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  But I have an inner world and I also knew, I can't explain why, but I knew I had this life ahead of me that I was about to be a part of and that I was gonna be okay. But I get to this church for this baptism after spending this time with the pastor. Having this kind of position in my community that was complicated. I was loved but not accepted and just, everything was like, okay, but not great. So I get to this church and the pastor takes me aside with this other kid that was gonna get, like, a much younger kid, and asks us both, as a formality, do you practice witchcraft or homosexuality? And I just laughed. I just burst out laughing because I didn't understand why that question was pertinent, and I still don't.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  But that question seemed so ridiculous to me. And then it didn't take me long to realize that I had to answer yes to one of those things.

• 25:12Dax Shepard?

  Do you think he threw witchcraft in to make it seem less pointed? Or you think that's standard?

• 25:18Speaker 01

  They think that's equal. Those are the same.

• 25:20Dax Shepard?

  I'm just curious if he was, because he spent a week with you, he probably liked you.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Well, he liked me. And he knew me, he knew my family.

• 25:26Dax Shepard?

  And he's about to put you in a situation where he's gonna deny you a baptism. I mean, imagine he's human. So did he just throw witchcraft in to try to make it say, hey, I gotta ask these standard questions?

• 25:38Speaker 02

  I think so. And I think until this very moment, I just accepted it as such.

• 25:43Dax Shepard?

  It just seems like insane. How would you find yourself all the way to this point believing in witchcraft? But whatever.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  I have a great idea. I'm gonna ask her about witchcraft and then the homosexuality thing won't feel as.

• 25:51Dax Shepard?

  That's a throwaway. Yeah.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Maybe the other kid was a warlock, right?

• 25:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, maybe the kid, the boy was a warlock.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  He's getting you both with one question.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  So he very well could have been. He's standing there with his staff.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  But I stopped laughing. I looked at him. I go, you know me. I go, you know, I'm gay. Everyone knows I'm gay. I'm the gay person in town. I'm like the town gay. You know, that didn't seem like that was a disqualifying factor. And I'm in a swimsuit and my parents are right there. What are you talking about?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  And he was like, you can't be baptized today. And I had to leave the church in front of all those people sitting there. Run back to my house.

• 26:28Dax Shepard?

  How did you take that? Were you heartbroken by that? Or were you angered by it?

• 26:32Speaker 02

  At that point, just humiliated. So embarrassed, which is my nightmare. I cannot be embarrassed. It was about the most embarrassed I've ever been in my life to this day. And my parents came home and a couple of their close friends, like Ron and Diane, like they all came to the house and it was suddenly, I was loved and accepted. It was this weird thing that happened where then pastor dude was the problem. And the whole town got mad on my behalf.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Oh, that's beautiful.

• 27:04Dax Shepard?

  That might be scarier for me, though. I don't know if I want the whole town to hate me or love me. I'm afraid of both.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  I could see why, because they might know what you're doing.

• 27:13Dax Shepard?

  I'd just be like, oh, I can't live up to love. I can live up to disappointing you, but living up to love, that's the whole trajectory of this experience of even getting famous. That's still an issue. I'm afraid for you to love me because I'm going to disappoint you.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  I think more than ever, that is a valid stressor. I can see why you feel that way, even without the issues.

• 27:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I already had those. And then there's some proof now.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely. That turned that around for me in a really interesting way.

• 27:41Dax Shepard?

  So did they can the pastor? They said like, you gotta go to the program and baptize?

• 27:45Speaker 02

  No, that pastor called me every day for a long time, trying to apologize. I just, I think it was just upsetting for everyone. You know, religion and dogma, it's so. Oppressive.

• 27:55Dax Shepard?

  So did you just lose your desire to even get baptized at that point? Like, fuck that. I have my relationship with Jesus and I'm good.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, until much, much later in life. It set me free in a way, I think, made a lot of people that thought that gay people were militant and insisting on these rights that they're gonna take from them, realize we really are kind of in trouble out here. We really are vulnerable in a lot of different ways. And I don't think they're realized.

• 28:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you were just like excommunicated from your church?

• 28:23Speaker 02

  In front of them all.

• 28:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:25Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's a lovely end, though, to that terrible story.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. That's why I look at it.

• 28:30Dax Shepard?

  Something about it is the best part of us as humans, which is like, we don't enjoy seeing someone get shit on or excluded.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  Almost no matter what.

• 28:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and it can change us on a dime in a profound way, more than had you bitched out the guy in front of everyone.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  And one.

• 28:47Dax Shepard?

  And one.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Something, yes. I know exactly what you mean. Did I read correctly that you wouldn't get married until LGBTQ?

• 28:54Dax Shepard?

  The gays good?

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had a lot of gay friends and my analogy was, and this is a crazy analogy, but it feels very appropriate. If half my friends were black and I lived in the 30s, I wouldn't host a party in the front of the bus.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:09Dax Shepard?

  It would feel insane. And I was like, well, we're gonna invite like eight of our gay friends to watch us have this right they don't have and celebrate us. Feels bonkers.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 29:18Dax Shepard?

  Just on that alone, not like a big global, just like, this is wrong for me to do this and invite friends that can't do it to enjoy it for me. It feels crazy.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  It's pretty good.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  It's pretty great.

• 29:30Dax Shepard?

  But then we were stuck in engagement.

• 29:35Dax Shepard?

  Purgatory for like, I want to say three years, to the point where people would be like, you're still engaged? Like, they're getting nervous for us, right? Like, you can only be engaged for so long.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is a bad sign.

• 29:45Dax Shepard?

  Nervous. And it's like, oh, this is convenient. You have a cause now?

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Always the guy's idea.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  You should go to the festival. You definitely.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  You should go to the festival. I really do think it's right for you. But also, that's actually amazing. That's gonna always be a part of your legacy. And being able to get married changed my life. And when I couldn't get married, it was a major drain on my life.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Can we talk about that a little bit? Because I do think we have a friend group and there's something adjacent happening where there's some religious people who are like, well, no, you can be together, but like marriage is a different thing. What can you share about why that's not okay?

• 30:28Speaker 02

  About why it's not okay to deny that basic

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  civil right? Well, I just don't think that any one religion has the monopoly on two people choosing to spend the rest of their lives together under equal protection of the law. And guess what? Some of us are quite religious. It was kind of wild, actually, because my weddings, we had a lot of weddings. My wife is from London. So we got married in a little church called the Church of the Good Shepherd in Wareham, Massachusetts.

• 30:54Dax Shepard?

  Her last name is Shepherd, yeah.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  Shepherd. Yeah, isn't that wild?

• 30:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's great.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  And then we had a civil partnership in England because they didn't have marriage there yet. It was just a civil partnership. So it was kind of weird because we never had a civil partnership here. We had marriage first. And then England for years had civil partnerships and then marriage quite a lot later. So we had a civil partnership there and the deal was you couldn't have any mention of faith, religious music. I don't even think you could wear like a cross, like you had to have a totally secular

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  union, which was an interesting thing because it gave me this perspective of understanding how it can really be viewed through a religious lens. But really, that's all in the eye of the beholder. That's all in how you feel about it.

• 31:37Dax Shepard?

  Also, it just really speaks to like little groups of humans do little weird things and they have little weird rules that are separate from this group. So it's like, this one has to be secular, doesn't make much sense. This one can't have that, doesn't make much sense.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:50Dax Shepard?

  They overlap in these little segments of life and you're going to deal with a civil union and that thing at the same time.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  I think just normal people out like living their lives and stuff just didn't realize how many things it excluded us from. We had all kinds of issues.

• 32:03Dax Shepard?

  You couldn't visit her in the hospital, right? Like that would be one in a lot of cases.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  That was a really heartbreaking one and happened to a lot of older couples or just homeownership, like going back to somebody's family instead of their long-term spouse.

• 32:17Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Things like that. But then immigration as well, we couldn't get a green card. Or vouch for cat citizenship or anything like that.

• 32:23Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  There was no spousal allocation for me to be able to do that. So we had to renew our visa every couple of years and panic every time we traveled internationally. Get detained at the airport. We were always detained at the airport.

• 32:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  And when that changed, it was just immediate. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is what everybody else. You just get to walk up to the counter and say, we're married everywhere.

• 32:42Dax Shepard?

  You don't even think about it. I don't think I've gotten some right, which I have.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  That's the problem when people are against it. They don't recognize the benefits of it that they're just inherently getting.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  That's a good point.

• 32:53Dax Shepard?

  Do you like Sedaris? David Sedaris, the writer?

• 32:57Speaker 02

  I don't know him. Help me. He's so good.

• 32:59Dax Shepard?

  Congratulations. You just got introduced to the greatest living writer.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  He is incredible.

• 33:04Dax Shepard?

  He's hysterical. But anyways, I was just reading a short story two nights ago and it was about when it got passed. He has a very interest. He's older. He's 60, probably four now. And he has opinions that are of his era in a fun way. And he's very open about them. He was in England and he collects trash in the morning at their house in England. That's like his routine. And he brought with him his iPad because he knew that the Supreme Court announcement wasn't going to happen. And then he lost signal for three hours. Then he got to a cafe and he opened it up and he saw it. And he said, I don't think any gay human being in America could have not read that and just felt emotion.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:44Dax Shepard?

  But then his whole process is like him going home to his partner of 20 years and telling Hugh that they got to get married because there's a great tax benefit. And he was like, I'm not getting married. That's for fucking straight people. I don't give a fuck about the tax benefit.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  That's a whole thing too.

• 33:58Dax Shepard?

  And he pestered him for like a month to finally get him to concede. And he said, the actual proposal was like him rolling out the tax benefits, bludgeoning him. And then Hugh's saying, fine, if it'll make you shut up, I'll do it.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  That's marriage.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  That's hot.

• 34:14Dax Shepard?

  Walking to his room going like, well, that's not the wedding proposal I imagined, but here we are.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:19Dax Shepard?

  And like, doesn't want to be called husband, you know, like there's a whole rejection.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  That's a whole thing. How old are they?

• 34:24Dax Shepard?

  Like 64, five.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I get it. I respect that. I really respect that.

• 34:28Dax Shepard?

  He hates the word queer. You know, like he's got a lot of things. Yeah, and he's fun to talk to and he's earned every single opinion he has.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  Oh, I love those folks.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Those are my, well, ancestors in a way, like those are my elders, man. I've got so much respect for the older gays.

• 34:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. He grew up in a time where he had to leave North Carolina and move to New York City. This is his only shot.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  Had to.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Front lines.

• 34:49Dax Shepard?

  And he's almost unsympathetic when he has people ask him questions like, what should I do? I'm in this town. He's like, fucking move.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. He's like, just get out of there.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  They're gritty, those older gays. They're so gritty. It's brutal.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  And they're like, you guys don't even know what AIDS is.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. Exactly. Yeah, they're pissed. And yeah, in some ways, like they have a right.

• 35:09Dax Shepard?

  He's like, what's the problem?

• 35:13Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking your gas gauge before hitting the road? You genuinely thought you could make it? You were wrong. That's a very long stretch of highway where you learned exactly how far fumes can take you. And it's not far enough. Yeah, checking first is an excellent plan. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast, reliable help when you need it, add an Allstate roadside plan today. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary. Insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions, and availability.

• 35:55Dax Shepard?

  Insurance provided by Allstate North American Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club, Incorporated, an Allstate affiliate. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. We've talked before about Rob building our website on Squarespace and I bring it up again because it's a perfect example of what they do well. Rob had all the pieces, the content, the vision, the ideas, but he needed something to actually take all that and make it public facing. And Squarespace was that bridge. Maybe you're in the same spot. You've been developing something, a business, a skill set, a body of work, and it's been private. It's been yours, but at some point you're ready to put it out there. And that transition from private to public can feel like a huge leap. Squarespace makes it feel like a step.

• 36:40Dax Shepard?

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• 37:10Dax Shepard?

  This episode is supported by Helix.

• 37:13Speaker 01

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• 37:23Dax Shepard?

  That's the dream. You just described one of my ideal fall nights.

• 37:28Speaker 01

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• 37:44Dax Shepard?

  Increasingly so.

• 37:45Speaker 01

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• 37:55Dax Shepard?

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• 38:15Speaker 01

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• 38:22Dax Shepard?

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• 38:35Dax Shepard?

  This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts, the stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish. Cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 39:18Speaker 02

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• 39:18Dax Shepard?

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• 39:30Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so mom, was she the breadwinner? I imagine you guys were probably scraping by if they were super young. Dad had his problem and mom, what did she do?

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Mom was a stay at home mom.

• 39:40Dax Shepard?

  How did this work?

• 39:41Speaker 02

  There wasn't a lot of bread.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  My dad, when he couldn't be at Boeing anymore, he learned how to do some construction and a guy helped out. Our family helped my dad get some tools. My dad's actually really good at construction. He still comes out and does stuff at my house all the time and stuff. And just within that gig, you just, you get jobs and you can get them. And when you don't have them, you don't have money. And that's just how you roll. So we moved a lot.

• 40:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I noticed maybe seven places I read or something in some period of time.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Me and my brother's gotten in an argument about this last night. He didn't believe me, but it's 14 places in 17 years.

• 40:13Dax Shepard?

  There we go.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  But it didn't seem that strange at all at the time. There were consistent things, you know, like I had the same cat that we took to every place that we moved to. I shared room with my little sister. I'm really tight with my brother and sister. And I'm really tight with my parents. We're just a chaotic unit of dysfunction that just deeply loves each other. We sometimes disagree about history and how it played out and what we're allowed to talk about what we aren't. But I do believe that my life is my story and we'll just talk it through. We'll continue to talk it through like we always have.

• 40:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Did you covet money? Or was the town so small that even though you were broke, was everyone broke? Or did you covet money and think, how the fuck am I gonna get, I gotta get money?

• 40:56Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I thought about money a lot. I still do.

• 40:59Dax Shepard?

  Me too.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  I'm a coyote. Yeah, coyote people.

• 41:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. What are you, old coyote people is what we're called?

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:05Dax Shepard?

  Oh, tell me more.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  Like a coyote, it cannot help but exist for meat.

• 41:09Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? And like, I'm a coyote for achievement. I'm a coyote for success. I'm a coyote for stability and money. And I do my best, I've got all kinds of philosophies around not hoarding money and things like that, because I know where the addiction lies.

• 41:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  But I used to lay in my bed and dream about all the things I could buy everybody if I got money. And they were dumb things, like four wheelers.

• 41:35Dax Shepard?

  Sure, no, those are great things.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  You know, like downriggers and crap like that. Once I very first started making money, I did crazy stuff with it. I took out loans, like I would finance four wheelers and get like my dad and brother a four wheeler. Just new money stuff.

• 41:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I wish I were one of your family members. I love four wheelers.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  I have a lot.

• 41:53Dax Shepard?

  Especially free ones.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  I have a four wheeler problem.

• 41:56Dax Shepard?

  But you started singing with mom at eight years old?

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:59Dax Shepard?

  So mom was a singer, I presume?

• 42:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, my mom's a really good country singer. To this day, she can still sing really good, like Tammy Wynette. Her dad died of ALS really young. He died at like 50. And that was tough for my mom because she was really young.

• 42:11Dax Shepard?

  Needed a dad.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  Yep, and he was special. So he was gonna be a pretty important patriarchal figure in our family that we all could have really used. And so he left us and one thing he did was sing country music and play the spoons and sing in a country band with his family.

• 42:28Dax Shepard?

  Was he from Washington?

• 42:30Speaker 02

  He was from Minnesota.

• 42:31Dax Shepard?

  Doesn't make much more sense. I was hoping from the south.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  You know, but you can't count out the north.

• 42:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Or the west, that's what we call it, country and western, where I come from.

• 42:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you're right.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  We do not belong to the south.

• 42:41Dax Shepard?

  That's true.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  And so she, in a way, was able to continue that legacy, pass that on to me and my brother and my sister. We all do music now.

• 42:50Dax Shepard?

  And who was she singing with that she got to get you up on stage to sing with her?

• 42:53Speaker 02

  There was like a little community theater in town called the Northwest Grand Ole Opry that I dream about all the time, actually. We were acting out the Grand Ole Opry. They had like an announcer, there was like a little Jimmy Dickens mini pearl thing happening.

• 43:05Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's great.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so she would mostly sing with us, but even though she's a good singer, I always got the idea that. It was really more about us than her at a certain point. And she thought it was really cool that her kids could sing.

• 43:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. You have kids.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got kids.

• 43:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they do shit and you're like, oh, my God.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  They do shit and you're like, oh, my God. I've picked a song to play for you later.

• 43:25Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I can't wait.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Based on this because of the ages. Tell me now, how old?

• 43:29Dax Shepard?

  Eleven and thirteen. And you're eight and twelve?

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Eight and eleven, almost twelve.

• 43:35Dax Shepard?

  OK, so similar, both girls. Yeah, yeah.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Both girls, yeah.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Yours are both girls also?

• 43:39Speaker 02

  Mine are both girls.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 43:41Dax Shepard?

  And do they ride four wheelers?

• 43:43Speaker 02

  They do. They both have Polaris's.

• 43:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, OK, good.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Putting them on four wheelers is something I'm really happy I did and in a Ranger. Because when they get to driving.

• 43:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  She's that coordination and under spatial awareness.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  They should really be hanging out.

• 43:54Dax Shepard?

  I know, my girls ride dirt bikes and they drive razors and golf carts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, you start singing now without mom by what age? Fifteen-ish?

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, me and my best friend Amber, we started singing background vocals for her dad, who was an Elvis impersonator. And then we would do a song or two and the set by ourselves. And then we learned a couple of Indigo Girls songs and started trying to teach her harmony, which my brother had taught me. And I was singing in another band with my brother. And things just kind of turned into me being in multiple bands and having a lot going on.

• 44:29Dax Shepard?

  You got obsessed with Elton John, taught yourself piano, taught yourself guitar?

• 44:32Speaker 02

  Guitar when I was around seventeen, sixteen, seventeen.

• 44:35Dax Shepard?

  OK, and when do you move into Seattle and meet Tim and Phil?

• 44:40Speaker 02

  I never moved to Seattle.

• 44:41Dax Shepard?

  You didn't?

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Back to this day, I live where I grew up. But I did meet them in a studio when I was about eighteen, nineteen. I got some money together from neighbors, Coyote, out there doing the Coyote things.

• 44:54Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Got some money together to go make a CD. And ended up in a, there's a recording studio there called London Bridge and a guy called Rick Perashar. And this recording studio is very special. This is where Pearl Jam Ten was done, Temple of the Dog, all the Alice in Chains stuff with Kelly Gray. And Rick Perashar was involved in all that. And he was the producer of those things. So this felt to me like the center of Seattle grunge. But I couldn't afford like the big studio or the big. Producers, so like an assistant engineer, let me record with him upstairs in like a little kind of

• 45:27Dax Shepard?

  Satellite room.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  And it wasn't even really, it was just a room. But Pro Tools was just coming out so you could do that without a big console. And Tim and Phil were downstairs working with the big producer in the big room in their own band called The Fighting Machinists. They were like legends in Seattle. They had just gotten the biggest record deal anybody in Seattle had ever gotten and they were going to be huge. And I just waltzed down there and again, totally oblivious to what I looked like and where I came from and just was like.

• 45:53Dax Shepard?

  You guys like cow pants?

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. What do you think?

• 45:57Dax Shepard?

  Enjoy.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Leave this all behind.

• 46:00Dax Shepard?

  Put on your bib and pull up a plate.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  I guess this is the beauty of moving a lot. You just have to like put yourself out there. You have to talk to people. You can't really be shy. You don't have time.

• 46:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. If you're sitting at home, no one's ever going to knock at your door and go, hey, do you want this spectacular life?

• 46:14Speaker 02

  No one ever is. And you realize you've got to make opportunities every chance you get. And I was working as a barista at a coffee stand, so I got a lot of social skills that way. I was working at a grocery store as a sample lady.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Oh, a sample lady. What was your sample?

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Oh, every day it was different. It was awesome job, actually. And then I was working part-time as a roofing laborer.

• 46:35Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I also was a roofer.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Really?

• 46:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Why are we the same person?

• 46:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  I think my back is still messed up.

• 46:42Dax Shepard?

  Were you doing tear off or?

• 46:44Speaker 02

  Tear off and clean up. And sometimes I would throw down the tar paper if it was not a slatted roof.

• 46:48Dax Shepard?

  Never got to throw any bundles up.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  You didn't get promoted there.

• 46:53Dax Shepard?

  I will say though, I was just talking about this with a neighbor in Nashville because he's a builder and we were kind of going through the strata of people in the trades. And I was like, look, you've been doing this for 35 years. Am I not crazy? We are the worst, right? Roofers are just like worst prison records, least likely to show up. And he goes, oh, by far roofers are the most fucked up in the trades.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  You think?

• 47:13Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you got to shit on a roof. In Detroit, we would do rubber roof. You'd be five, six stories up. There's no, even if you went down the ladder, there's nowhere in Detroit to go use the bathroom. So the guys are shitting in buckets on the roof. Everyone's hammered. People aren't showing up. I mean, yeah, it was a mess.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. So imagine me like the lowest rung on that ladder where you're literally. You're just cleaning up the mess. It was like that. And when you're on a roof and you're cleaning up roofing material, you're never lifting anything properly because you're always trying to keep from falling down.

• 47:41Dax Shepard?

  You're on a crazy angle.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  So I think my back is permanently jacked from it.

• 47:46Dax Shepard?

  Your whole day is spent figuring out how to do this ergonomically so you don't get hurt. Because yeah, you're on an angle that's different from the angle you mastered yesterday. And you're prying these nails out with this fucking weird shovel.

• 47:57Speaker 02

  This has gotten so niche. Like, no one can relate to this.

• 48:01Dax Shepard?

  Who cares? You and I can. We know. Six other roofers out there. As our audience. The six roofers who are sober enough to comprehend this right now are enjoying it.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  They're like, ah, ah, ah, to our paper.

• 48:16Dax Shepard?

  How do you woo Tim and Phil? Like, how do you go from, they're the hot shit in town. You're upstairs in the attic recording on Pro Tools. How do you convince them we should work together?

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Honestly, I don't know, because every show they had was sold out. I saw them play. Like, they were unbelievable. They were very nice. I almost couldn't believe how nice they were to me. Because they were so popular and they were so good looking. I had nothing to offer these two beautiful boys in their twenties. And I was just like, you want to play on my record, you know?

• 48:46Dax Shepard?

  How's this sound?

• 48:47Speaker 02

  And they just did it for no reason. The way I had things going was I would busk whenever I could in the daytime at Pike Place Market. And I had these residencies at night in clubs and restaurants all over Seattle. I'm talking about Duke's Clem Chowder House, Bill Medine's Ravioli Station in Ballard, the Dubliner Bar, and the Ballard Firehouse.

• 49:06Dax Shepard?

  People are coming for the entree first, and then there's music.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  They have no idea they're going to get music.

• 49:11Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  But I did have this little P A. system that I would go and I would go, hey, listen, I got two speakers. I know you don't have music here, but if you let me come in on Tuesday nights, give me like four Tuesday nights. If on the fifth Tuesday night, it's like twice as busy in here, then you got to start paying me.

• 49:25Dax Shepard?

  Nice.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  And then I would get my Tuesday night at Salty's on Alki. So I basically had all these residencies going. And then I would get down on my breaks and sit with all these people at their tables and have a beer and say, give me your phone number, give me your phone number. And then once a month I would call them and I'd go, hey, I got a Big show at the Tractor Tavern. Might be some record labels there. Will you pack it out for me?

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 49:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  And all these people would come and then I'd have packed shows. And so everybody was like, what's going on with this girl?

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:53Dax Shepard?

  Wow, you really networked your way into that.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Good.

• 49:55Speaker 02

  That's how we ended up getting a record deal and that's how I ended up getting the twins to join the band.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 50:00Dax Shepard?

  Don't you marvel, I'll be just reflecting on the odds against everyone to make it in any of these chosen show business careers? And the thing I constantly come back to is like, yeah, it'd be great if talent got you there. The amount of hustle it takes, I think, is a little misleading when you're on the outside. You think like, oh, if I'm Bieber and I'm a genius at 13, I'll become famous. And really, it's like, I mean, you gotta fucking call random people you played in front of at a restaurant?

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's really the stuff we've been talking about this whole time that gives you that acumen, like the skills to do that. You can't fake being a coyote. You can't fake coming from nothing. You can't fake the charisma that it takes to rise like a phoenix out of really difficult situations.

• 50:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So it does start happening pretty darn quick for you, I would say, right? Cause you've dropped out of high school. That ship sailed.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  That was a bummer.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  I do wanna pause there for two seconds.

• 50:56Dax Shepard?

  Pursue anything academically.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Or you're just like, I'm done?

• 51:00Dax Shepard?

  You had ADHD, right? You were diagnosed as ADHD?

• 51:03Speaker 02

  I don't think so. You know, something, my folks, the whole thing is a bit inaccurate in terms of like, we're inaccurate historians. I mean, I'm sure there was a doctor or two that was like, you have ADHD. And now that everybody understands it so well, I'm sure there's some truth to that, but I just didn't do well.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  In school and I just couldn't keep myself there.

• 51:21Dax Shepard?

  You were restless there?

• 51:22Speaker 02

  And I felt too grown up to be there, I guess, because I had all these jobs and all these goals and these plans and I was working it. And I would be working and getting myself places and then I would go to school and have to raise my hand to use the bathroom.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  And I was like, I don't belong here. I'm an adult. I just felt like I can't be here. I'm failing. At everything. I need to go somewhere. I'm not gonna fail. That's what it was.

• 51:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  And your parents were like, alright, I guess that's what's gonna happen. They didn't really have a choice.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, me and my brother, we're just a year apart. We just stopped going and just started working.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Wow, I just wonder, Dax, if the girls were like, we're not going to school anymore.

• 52:02Dax Shepard?

  Of all the people I know who are successful in working, I don't think any of them went to Harvard. None of them did the right thing. I barely graduated high school. I don't think it's that big of a deal. I think if you, if you want it, you're gonna get it. And if you don't want it, you're not gonna get it anyways. I can send you any school that'll take you. It's not gonna give you that. I hate to say that I feel that way, but I kinda do.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  I mean, it worked out.

• 52:24Speaker 02

  If my girls came to me and said, we don't wanna go to a conventional high school, I have the time and the means to help them with an alternative path. My parents, they both dropped out of high school. No one in our family graduated. Not my brother, not my sister, not me, not my folks.

• 52:39Dax Shepard?

  Wow, your kids could be the first.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  So my kids could be the first. They will do it maybe a different way, though. I don't see my kids going to a conventional high school and doing that. I don't understand how to speak that language. So I think there'll be alternative forms of their exit from their education.

• 52:53Dax Shepard?

  But suffice to say, by 2005, you record Brandy Carlisle. That's the first album. So you would have been 24?

• 53:03Speaker 02

  When it came out, yeah. I think I recorded it in maybe 2002, 2003.

• 53:07Dax Shepard?

  So pretty young, 24. And that works. Like Rolling Stone reviews it beautifully. They put you on the top 10 artists to watch in 2005. After all that grind, did you have a hard time trusting the positive things that were coming?

• 53:23Speaker 02

  No, I just loved it. I was so happy. Honestly, I was happy before. I've always felt like a famous singer.

• 53:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  I've always felt like that. So no.

• 53:35Dax Shepard?

  You're like, oh, the world caught up.

• 53:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm more gun shy now than I was back then.

• 53:40Dax Shepard?

  Tell me, what do you think has caused that?

• 53:42Speaker 02

  I don't know, maybe just getting older, being middle aged, wondering about relevance, the internet, the way people talk about each other, how easy it is to surmise that someone is something that they're not. And those kinds of things just make me question whether this is the gig for me.

• 53:59Dax Shepard?

  It's weird though, isn't it? It's like counter to what you would think. If you would ask me at like 15, let's say you did all this stuff, what would you feel like at the end of it? Be like, oh, I'd feel so confident. But yeah, I was in this movie that people give me a lot of compliments for Idiocracy. And I played a role that I know I wouldn't do today. Like, it would be too big of a swing. I would be afraid to go try to do what I did in that movie.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  You're saying that you wouldn't do it?

• 54:23Dax Shepard?

  Today, if you offered me that role today, I would be like, I can't do it.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  You'd be too scared.

• 54:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'd be too scared. But isn't that what we're saying? There's like, that's what's so weird.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  Well, that's the thing about Idiocracy too, that, yeah, I could see why. Yeah, I could see why.

• 54:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, just it was a huge swing and I didn't mind at all taking it at 30. And I didn't give a fuck if anyone thought it was embarrassing or not.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 54:42Dax Shepard?

  And now I would. And it would be harder for me to do it now. And that's opposite of what I would have expected.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Is it because we don't want to be embarrassed in front of our kids? Is it because we're like becoming legacy conscious as we get older?

• 54:55Dax Shepard?

  I mean, I think those are really good guesses. And for probably a lot of people, that stuff is going on. I don't think I'm concerned about legacy. I think what it is is, in some weird way, I was inoculated by ignorance and naivete. And didn't even consider, what if I look ridiculous doing it? What if this is embarrassing? Those thoughts never crossed my mind. And now they would.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, that sucks. We only get that, I think, for...

• 55:19Dax Shepard?

  I'm not as good as I thought I was. That's part of it, right? Like, I used to think I was so good. Now I think I'm fine. In some weird ways, I'm more confident. But also, it's like I tapped on the bottom and the top.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  What has changed that? Do you think you've let some of the outside in a little bit?

• 55:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, or I've seen stuff I did that I thought was one thing. And then upon reflection or years away, I'm like, oh, it wasn't as good as I thought it was. I wasn't as good in it. I more come to the feeling like, yeah, I'm fine. I can do this job, not I'm going to be Will Ferrell. At that point, I was like, I'm going to be Will Ferrell.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  No, you have stuff to lose now. That's really what it is. You get to an age where you have stuff to lose. When you're starting out, there's nothing to lose. You're able to put yourself out there because it's like, well, what's the worst that can happen?

• 56:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I didn't have a mortgage when I did that.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Exactly. And you have a reputation, you have children. There's a ton to lose, actually.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. And you're a little bit dumb.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  The beauty of not having a fully developed frontal lobe, actually, it helps you.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  I put out album after album after album without ever even knowing when the Grammys were. And now I'm thinking about the Grammys before I write the song. I don't want it to be that way. And I push it out. I do it. I get rid of it and I do the thing and I go in. But to not know the things I know, I made an album with Elton John. Elton's incredibly encyclopedic about numbers and the charts and how things do. And he knows everything. And I knew nothing. He would call me and say, hey, the record is coming out at this, or it got this, or this thing is going to happen. And I'd be like, oh, my God, tell me about that. Like, what is that?

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  Once you learn too much about how you're being received, it can definitely go in. But I think there's ways we can erase it. I don't know how, but I think there are ways we can get rid of the knowledge.

• 57:01Dax Shepard?

  Well, because we have examples of people who have avoided that. So minimally, there are mentors that exist that seem to have never succumbed to that pressure. But yes, if you've never been nominated for a Grammy, who cares? Once you get nominated for one, now we know you can do it. It's yours to not do.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:19Dax Shepard?

  That's what fucks you up, I think, is like, okay.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Yours to not do.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  In the climb, we talk about this all the time. It's counterintuitive, but it's so much scarier once you're at the top of the mountain. Climbing the mountain is hard. And when you're in it, you're like, oh, I want to do is be up there. But then when you're up there, there's one way to go.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  There's one way to go.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  It's scary up there.

• 57:38Dax Shepard?

  Nowhere to go.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  And you're more self-conscious because of it.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  You're right. Yeah. And they Say, what's that Miley lyric? There's always gonna be another mountain.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:46Dax Shepard?

  There's always gonna be enough.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  I need another mountain. I need another mountain all the time. That's my addiction.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  They're there.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:52Dax Shepard?

  OK, in 07, the story comes out. How did you end up working with T-Bone Burnett? And is he as magical as I'm led to believe from film and television? He seems very special.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, he is very special. When I started recording our songs, me and the twins' songs, we had like forty something songs, forty-two songs maybe, over the course of doing these residencies together and working together and practicing. And who we met first was Rick Rubin.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 58:18Dax Shepard?

  OK.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  And Rick Rubin tried to sign us to American Recordings, but there was a lot going on, like the Johnny Cash stuff had just come out and he was moving and a bunch of record label stuff. Didn't work out. But what he told me was, these are your good songs and these are your not-so-good songs. He divided them in half and he goes, this is a really great record. This is something you can record if you need to make money and find a way to get yourself through the next couple of years until I get settled in at my new record label.

• 58:45Dax Shepard?

  Did you agree with that assessment?

• 58:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, then I was really open to suggestion at that point from him. So I divided those things in half and I went in and recorded what became Brandy Carlisle as my own collection, basically, of demos for me to sell at my shows. And then later on, I got the record deal in 2005. And they said, well, OK, we know your good record is the story, this album you have set aside.

• 59:07Dax Shepard?

  Mythical, yet to come out.

• 59:08Speaker 02

  Let's put this other one out in the meantime, while you kind of get your chops and get out on the road and get good. So we did, and that became Brandy Carlisle. That was my not-good songs. That was my album of rejects.

• 59:19Dax Shepard?

  And you toured for two years on that, right?

• 59:21Speaker 02

  Toured for like several years on that. And then it never really worked out with Rick Rubin. And I met T-Bone Burnett in a hotel bar in New York City. And we got to talking about country music. We hit it off and we agreed that we were gonna leave the country and make a record together in some other country. That record was the story. And the whole thing is recorded live in one room with one band to tape.

• 59:43Dax Shepard?

  Eleven days or something, something really quick.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can't get T-Bone Burnett to stay longer than that.

• 59:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he moves quick.

• 59:50Speaker 02

  He moves quick.

• 59:51Dax Shepard?

  What was going on with T- On the live was a departure from what was being done normally, right?

• 59:56Speaker 02

  It was, but it was a recent departure because like I was saying, Pro Tools was only kinda new. And there were certain editing techniques that are second nature today that you hear all the time without realizing you're hearing them, that we didn't really have refined or have a lot of access to back in that exact moment. You couldn't have used autotune or Melodyne and not heard it. You'd hear it. It wasn't as finessed as it is now. Compression too, everything was in a time when you're hearing like really unaltered human voice and not a lot of isolation.

• 1:00:27Dax Shepard?

  Your voice cracks on one of the tracks, right?

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, on the story in a significant way. And a lot of times I'm playing guitar and singing at the same time and those things can't be separated in those recordings. And so we recorded to tape, which is another, whole other cumbersome but beautiful sounding way to record.

• 1:00:42Dax Shepard?

  And to edit on it is so much more time consuming.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, they actually splice it and cut it. So you have to make big decisions about accepting imperfection.

• 1:00:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So how about that moment with the voice? When you first started, were you like, we can't have that? Or were you like, oh, fuck, this somehow has a magic to it?

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  It felt and sounded so wild to me when I made that sound that I almost laughed and just ended the take.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  For everyone.

• 1:01:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  But I knew that everybody was playing so good and I didn't want to throw it for the drummer. And so I just sang through it thinking, well, if they love the first half, they can splice a second half on from another one. When I ended the song, T-Mob Burnett comes running through and, you know, he doesn't run. But he comes up and he throws the door open on my ISO pod and he goes, that was the moment of the record. That was the moment of the record.

• 1:01:29Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  And I go, what are you talking about? He goes, wait till you hear it.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  Wow. Powerful.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:35Dax Shepard?

  That's cool.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  That is so cool.

• 1:01:37Dax Shepard?

  So that album, The Story, really changes kinda everything, yeah?

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  No, at the time it really didn't. I think it didn't break the top anything.

• 1:01:47Dax Shepard?

  Well, you get songs on Grey's Anatomy, they.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  That started happening. So Grey's Anatomy started showing up really early, like during the Brandy Carlisle thing. And this sort of relationship happened with them where they found that my music was going well with their programming. I even recorded a couple of songs just for them.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:02:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. In one season, they had three of your songs. And then their musical episode, they sang one of your songs.

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, the story. It helped everything. It helped pay the bills. It helped our band. And what an iconic show.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I was obsessed with it and specifically the muse, just picking out every song.

• 1:02:21Dax Shepard?

  They were like, "Morning Becomes Eclectic." They were like a gateway to great music.

• 1:02:25Speaker 02

  Exactly like "Morning Becomes Eclectic." Exactly like "Garden State."

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  There was this kind of really cool thing that happened around sync licensing at that time. And I just happened to be a part of it. I still feel the ripple effect of that. And I love that show.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  It's a great show.

• 1:02:40Dax Shepard?

  What size venues were you playing in on that two years of touring with Brandi Carlile? Theaters or bars?

• 1:02:46Speaker 02

  Well, if I got to open for somebody, theaters. But a lot of bars and clubs and just kind of standing rooms and stuff like that. Loved it.

• 1:02:53Dax Shepard?

  Saw all kinds of fun stuff, I bet.

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  Saw all kinds of fun stuff. I never got on a plane until I was 17 years old. So I saw the whole country with these two twins in my own van.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  We should take our kids to more bars. Right. That actually teaches how to get by in a bar.

• 1:03:08Dax Shepard?

  Oh, if you can survive there.

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  Litmus test for the whole world.

• 1:03:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, every weekend with my father, I spent the entire day at the Dirty Doug Saloon from like 8 a.m. till 2 in the morning.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Dirty Doug.

• 1:03:18Dax Shepard?

  That was his spot.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  Tell me you met Doug.

• 1:03:21Dax Shepard?

  The Dirty Duck.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  I gotta know who Doug is.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Dirty Doug.

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  Hook me up with this dude.

• 1:03:27Dax Shepard?

  Probably was owned by a Dirty Doug, for sure. Okay, so when you finally got to work with Rick Rubin, how was that? That could go either way. If he met you years before and saved this and these are great, this could go either way.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  I found it tense.

• 1:03:40Dax Shepard?

  I'm intimidated by him a bit. We interviewed him and I was like, he's got some mojo, but the mojo for me is intimidating.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  I think I found it like that. If I had to really unpack it on the spot, I would say that him being the deciding force between whether something was great or not great really rubbed me the wrong way.

• 1:03:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  He actually used the word great all the time. And I felt that that word was subjective. I was young enough to where the punk rock artist in me needed that word to be subjective. And I needed to be the determining factor between what I was. Making whether it was great or not great.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  And I think if he were sitting here today, he would probably giggle and tell you that that's probably what he doesn't like about working with young artists is that they have to be determining factor of great or not great. At the same time, I wouldn't take that from myself for anything. So we butted heads.

• 1:04:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Really bad. And then later on in life, came back together and now are very good friends.

• 1:04:36Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's lovely.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  But I still think he's a complicated man and tough to work with on that level.

• 1:04:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I only hung around there for a minute when the Avits were recording there because I'm friends with Seth.

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  Oh, cool. I'm really good friends with those guys, too.

• 1:04:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I noticed you guys have played together. But if I had to really isolate, like, what insecurity in me is triggered by him?

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, tell me.

• 1:04:57Dax Shepard?

  There's something almost religious about him and I'm like, oh, I'll never grasp his thing that he's got and therefore he doesn't value me, you know, whatever. He's got some toehold on something I don't even believe in. And so there's a chasm between us and he'll never think I'm special and I'll never think he understands me. I don't know.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  Well, that's the same thing. His like serenity and his knowledge of what's great and not great is almost religious.

• 1:05:23Dax Shepard?

  It's like an aggressive serenity.

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  Dude, dude, that's it.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Well, it's serious.

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  Is it. It's an aggressive serenity.

• 1:05:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  He just also, he knows himself.

• 1:05:37Dax Shepard?

  And I think the dude's a genius. Let me be clear as day. I think the dude's a genius.

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, he knows himself very well. In the middle of our interview, he was like, it's cold in here. We need to turn down the, he didn't say, can we?

• 1:05:47Dax Shepard?

  No, no, no.

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  Very, we were like, oh, okay.

• 1:05:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  And then it like really rattled us for the next like however many minutes.

• 1:05:54Dax Shepard?

  That's all I could talk about.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Happened. It had never happened. He like really just knows what he wants. He says it. He's not scared of you.

• 1:06:02Dax Shepard?

  Not a people pleaser.

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  No, like what we would say is, hey, are you guys cold?

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? We would like, we would ask for the peanut gallery to like chime in and make a group decision.

• 1:06:12Dax Shepard?

  But there's merits and faults. I find myself a little envious of him.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  I have to admit that the first thing I said when I walked in here today was, can we turn the air conditioner down?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  No, yes.

• 1:06:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  It's totally a fair thing. It's totally fair.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  I guess he passed some of it on to me.

• 1:06:25Dax Shepard?

  You know, it's a legit thing to say. It's just the manner in which he rolled it out was unlike any version I had ever heard someone advocate for themselves.

• 1:06:34Speaker 02

  One time I went up to, again, this is the other thing is when we were making that second record, he didn't come to the studio, not one time. And I live in Seattle and I had to live in LA to make this record so I could be near him. But then I would have to take the record, which we recorded on to tape, up to his house once a week, sit there and play for him all the work I would done. And then he would make suggestions. And so at one point, he asked for me to double a guitar solo in length.

• 1:07:00Dax Shepard?

  That sounds challenging.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  In this song, "Impossible."

• 1:07:03Dax Shepard?

  Now I say "Impossible."

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I said, oh, well, we were cutting the tape. We can't do that. And he goes, "I'm sure you'll find a way to make it happen."

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Did you?

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 1:07:14Dax Shepard?

  It couldn't be done.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  But it was like that. Aggressive serenity was such a descriptive factor. Anyway, I don't think it's that way anymore. In fact, I worked with him recently on something and yeah, he was very direct, but I enjoyed it.

• 1:07:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's cool. Something about him triggers some insecurity in me. The dude's fine and he's a genius.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  And he knows it.

• 1:07:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  Quietly, silently knows it.

• 1:07:36Dax Shepard?

  And I may be jealous of that, too.

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe. If you ask him, because he doesn't play an instrument or know how to run any of the equipment, what qualifies him as being

• 1:07:45Dax Shepard?

  The guru.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  That he is. And he just says very confidently, "My taste. I gotta respect it."

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I do. And the results. He has them.

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  Hence, none of that.

• 1:07:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:08:04Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Instagram teen accounts. So we talk a lot on this show about how the world is different now than when we were growing up. And one of the biggest differences is obviously social media. And I think a lot of people wonder, okay, what's actually being done to make it safer for teenagers?

• 1:08:20Speaker 02

  Which is a fair

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Question.

• 1:08:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so Instagram has got something called teen accounts and they come with automatic protections built in by default. So anyone between 13 and 17 is automatically placed into this experience. They get age appropriate content settings, contact limits, so that by default, only people they're already connected to can message them. And time management tools, daily time limit reminders, and also sleep mode that mutes notifications from 10pm to 7am.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Sleep mode is genius.

• 1:08:49Dax Shepard?

  Right? And here's the thing, for anyone under 16, a parent has to give permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. The guardrails are on and Instagram keeps building new safety features to create age appropriate experiences for teens.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  I am really glad Instagram is helping to give parents peace of mind with teen accounts.

• 1:09:09Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts.

• 1:09:17Speaker 04

  With the Venture X Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. Plus, big purchasing power means you can spend more and earn more. The Capital One Venture X Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 1:09:40Dax Shepard?

  2014, you sing the National Anthem at a Seahawks game. You've performed at this point a thousand times in front of people?

• 1:09:47Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. In my mind, I'm like already Celine Dion.

• 1:09:50Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right. But do you get nervous when you go perform there?

• 1:09:54Speaker 02

  For some reason, though.

• 1:09:55Dax Shepard?

  Good, I like that.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I actually sang the National Anthem a lot in the early part of my career for different sporting things in Seattle. I sort of had like a program, I knew a key, like I had a key that I do it in, and I knew a way to keep the key in my head, so I didn't lose it when I got out there. I knew how to manage delay in the stadium. I knew how to use that song as like a wrestling move.

• 1:10:16Dax Shepard?

  It's a complicated song, no? Like, there's something about, it can get away from you, that song, really easy, right? People start too high and they got nowhere to go, is that what it is?

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  The fear in their eyes, like just like, look at their eyes.

• 1:10:25Dax Shepard?

  They're out of octaves.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  Don't even listen to where they started, just look at their eyes.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Oh, God. Oh, my God.

• 1:10:33Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so let's go to The Firewatcher's Daughter 2015. This is the first Grammy nomination you get.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Dax Shepard?

  So you've been at it now for 10 years. What do you think you picked up between Brandy Carlisle, the first album and The Firewatcher's Daughter? Do you think it's all the same? They just slept on you before? Or do you think you learned something at some point that made that a logical conclusion?

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  Lots and lots of live experience, lots and lots of road time and people's skills, understanding how to interact with people, but hold on to myself. A lot of production know-how because I had worked with T-Bone Burnett and Rick Rubin on two separate things. And then also all these ancillary producers, like I had gone in with John Goodmanson and Tony Berg. And I'd done a lot of projects with other really big producers. And me and the twins, we came from a big producer, Rick Prosser. So I had like a lot of production ideas and a lot of beliefs about leadership. And when we went in and made Firewatcher's Daughter, it was for better or worse, self-produced with a really powerful and amazing engineer called Trina Shoemaker, who was really co-producing when I look back on it now. And so I felt that we were like almost an indie band.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  We were living like an indie band and operating like an indie band and just fine with it. Doing really, really well and believing we were doing really well.

• 1:11:51Dax Shepard?

  So when you got that nomination, were you shocked or did you feel that coming?

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  I was shocked. Nobody had ever even talked to me about the Grammys. I thought it was like a TV show that my mom would let me stay up late for because Whitney is gonna hit that note live. Oh, yeah. And so basically, I was on an airplane and I got a text message from ATO, the like indie label we were on at the time. This guy, John, he texted me and he said, "Congratulations on your Grammy nomination." I was on the label with Brittany Howard and I knew she was always getting this stuff. So I thought, "Oh, this is Brandy," I said to him.

• 1:12:22Dax Shepard?

  It's been a mix-up.

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  Wow. Speechless. I had no idea even when they were, when the nominations are coming out.

• 1:12:28Dax Shepard?

  Did you cry?

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:12:29Dax Shepard?

  Didn't mean to insinuate you were a...

• 1:12:31Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  A little baby.

• 1:12:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  No, I'm just thinking about it because the Grammys have made me cry a couple of times, but at this point I didn't cry yet. But I was just like, oh, that's a level of making it that I hadn't even considered.

• 1:12:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:12:45Dax Shepard?

  You ended up somewhere bigger than you dreamed.

• 1:12:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I went. It was awesome.

• 1:12:49Dax Shepard?

  Well, you've been back a bazillion times. Just wondering, after you've already had them, does the reaction turn to more like relief?

• 1:12:57Speaker 02

  I think it does.

• 1:12:58Dax Shepard?

  Isn't that weird?

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  It does because the team works so hard for it. You so want to be able to bring that home for everybody else. And then there becomes an expectation. And, you know, if you don't get it, does that mean that something's over? Like when Elton was involved in this last one for Elton, I've never wanted acknowledgement more in my life than I did for Elton. Like, he hasn't had enough acknowledgement.

• 1:13:22Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right. But on his behalf, you very much wanted that.

• 1:13:24Speaker 02

  I couldn't sleep for like two days.

• 1:13:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then we woke up and we had it. And it was like, oh, we didn't win.

• 1:13:30Dax Shepard?

  And you got nominated for an Academy Award from that song, too.

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  That's exciting.

• 1:13:35Dax Shepard?

  And you've won two Emmys.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, two Emmys.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  You're on your way to an EGOT. I see this coming.

• 1:13:41Speaker 02

  Do you?

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:42Dax Shepard?

  What's the other one she's not involved with?

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  A Tony. Well.

• 1:13:45Dax Shepard?

  You need to get figure out Tony.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  We can figure that out.

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  I have an idea for it.

• 1:13:48Dax Shepard?

  Oh, God, that's a good idea. All right. The other fun thing you've done other than create nine albums that are all great and won 11 Grammys and two Emmys and Academy Award nomination. You've also got this side career as someone who has been obsessed with people and you get to work with these people. I think this is the zone of your life I'd be most envious of, more than the other stuff. To have people you love for an eternity and then to get to enter their orbit and then even get to work together. So is Tanya the first person or is Joni? Where does this start? Where you become this collaborator of people who have been humongous.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  Where did it start?

• 1:14:28Dax Shepard?

  Because you have Tanya Tucker, you have Joni Mitchell, and you have Elton John. You've spent years with these people.

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  It started in some of the places that you don't read about and that you can't imagine. Because I am a fan, like I am a way outside your tour bus for an autograph fan. I'm that kind of girl. And so a lot of these folks that I followed around when I was young and went to all of their shows and bought every single thing they did and worked to get closer to before I had this job, I got to work with them early on, like the Indigo Girls and Lyson Williams and Mary Chapin Carpenter and Kim Ritchie and some of my, like my favorite, most iconic, Bonnie Raitt. And then it starts to get bigger and the artists are like getting bigger. And it's like, I'm getting a call returned from Dolly and then we're singing together. And then me and Elton, we're going on vacation together and we're writing songs. And then Joni Mitchell, that turned into a whole other world.

• 1:15:18Dax Shepard?

  I mean, I'm just guessing, but I feel like of the other two, I feel like Joni, you needed to pull her into performing again, yeah?

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  I may have thought of that at the time, but I remember, you know who Russ Kunkel is? He's like this iconic drummer. He played on Blue and he played on all this James Taylor, like all the early, I think he's even on Tapestry. He's the dude and he's still killer in doing it all the time. But I did this concert where I covered Blue and I wasn't even that close with Joni yet, but she came. And I had just had my first Joni jam with her at her house. For anybody that doesn't know what the Joni jams are, it's something that we started at Joni's behest, six, seven years ago, recovering from an aneurysm, doesn't play music anymore. And we wound up in a situation where we had dinner and she was talking about her house

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  and her instruments and her living room and saying, I don't do music anymore. I don't want to hear it. It's not a problem. I don't want you to think that that's sad. I'm a painter, I'm a this, I'm a that, but my house misses it. And these instruments should be played. What do you think about bringing a few people over every now and then and doing these nights?

• 1:16:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:31Speaker 02

  So I just had my first jam. And at the very first jam, I won't walk you through the whole process, but Joni decided out of nowhere to open her mouth and sing.

• 1:16:41Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:16:42Speaker 02

  With nobody expecting it.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:16:44Speaker 02

  It was, Herbie Hancock was sitting at the piano.

• 1:16:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh, get out of here. Herbie Hancock was tickling the ivory?

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  Exactly that.

• 1:16:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:16:50Speaker 02

  And he was hovering over this diminished chord that I didn't know what it was. Nobody knew what it was. She did, though, and she just goes, "Summertime and the livin' is easy." And people burst into tears. Herbie burst into tears. All the people that had been taking care of her. And as she recovered from her aneurysm, she wouldn't do music, but then suddenly just decided to sing that line. So I'm telling Russ Kunkel this, and he goes, "She sang?" I go, "Yeah, she fully sang." I go, "Yeah, maybe, you know, maybe it's this, or maybe it was because of that, or it was just this." And he goes, "One thing I want you to remember, if you ever think that you're spearheading this, Joni Mitchell always has a plan."

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  Joni's always got a plan.

• 1:17:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  And so I am convinced that she actually was the architect of everything from that first line to the Hollywood Bowl.

• 1:17:39Dax Shepard?

  She's Kaiser Soze.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:17:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:41Dax Shepard?

  She let you believe this was all your idea. This is genius.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  I mean, you don't have to let me believe something's all my idea for me to just go ahead and believe it. She didn't say it wasn't, but I do feel like she orchestrated an incredible recovery for herself. I got to be the one in the passenger seat watching it happen.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  So cool.

• 1:17:59Dax Shepard?

  That did escalate into you guys playing at the Bowl. How many shows did you guys do?

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  We did two nights at the Bowl.

• 1:18:06Dax Shepard?

  Two nights at the Bowl. Surreal experience for you. Are you able to, in moments like that, be super there in taking it all in? Or are you like, yeah?

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  I mean, you want to talk about welling up. I let a few of the Joni things take me by surprise, but that one I was like ready for. And I remember just sitting next to her on the second night while she sang "Both Sides Now" and just openly weeping.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  Kind of knowing it was the last time I was going to get to do it.

• 1:18:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  And also thinking, these are some of the most powerful moments in music history, listening to this woman sing this song. Especially from a perspective of recovering from this aneurysm, being 82 years old, and really having looked at life from both sides now.

• 1:18:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  It's like, how did I get this seat?

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. You must believe, oh, I guess you believe in God, but I was going to say, you must believe in the simulation.

• 1:18:55Speaker 02

  The simulation? Explain.

• 1:18:57Dax Shepard?

  We're in a computer model being run.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  Oh, like there's no way this is real.

• 1:19:01Dax Shepard?

  Cause our lives are too good.

• 1:19:02Speaker 02

  Literally too good to be true.

• 1:19:03Dax Shepard?

  It's suspicious. That night with you, with Joni Mitchell is highly suspicious.

• 1:19:08Speaker 02

  That's highly suspicious.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:19:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:10Dax Shepard?

  That doesn't happen for people.

• 1:19:11Speaker 02

  No, it doesn't.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  You're in a computer game.

• 1:19:13Dax Shepard?

  When it does, you gotta go like, wow, God's really smiling on me. Or we're in a simulation.

• 1:19:17Speaker 02

  Or what's gonna happen?

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. Or what shoe's gonna drop, yeah.

• 1:19:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:21Dax Shepard?

  How long had it been since Tanya had recorded an album when you guys worked together?

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  I think a long time, something like 17 years.

• 1:19:29Dax Shepard?

  That album gets nominated for a Grammy?

• 1:19:32Speaker 02

  One.

• 1:19:32Dax Shepard?

  One, sorry.

• 1:19:33Speaker 02

  One country album of the year and country song of the year.

• 1:19:36Dax Shepard?

  Yes, after a 17 year.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  And she'd never won a Grammy in her life. And she is a country music way paper icon.

• 1:19:44Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes. When you were imagining your own success and visualizing it and you thought it was gonna feel like blank? I wanna know how much that delivered or didn't. And then I wanna know the difference between being a part of something that when you can help someone else do something, contrast those two experiences.

• 1:20:03Speaker 02

  Well, it overdelivered, way beyond overdelivered. There's just things like, you know, headlining Madison Square Garden or winning a Grammy or anything that happened with Joni or Dolly or Elton or Tanya or Annie Lennox. It's unbelievable. And then if you take that part of my job and you actually backtrack it, it's why I'm married to my wife, it's why I have my daughters, it's why I have my brothers, the twins, and why we live together. It's why our family is okay. It's given me everything. And so to say it overdelivered is such an understatement because it has woven the fabric of my life. Now, in terms of when you get something from it, like success or you learn how to do something, when you share that, for me, it's always as soon as I figure out how to do it.

• 1:20:46Speaker 02

  So when I figure something out, whether it's how to throw a festival, or run a successful tour, or maybe make an album that is good enough to where it garners the respect of winning a Grammy, I immediately want to do that for or with someone else, immediately. I'm already bored with the me part of it.

• 1:21:05Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  And so when, by the way, I forgive you did what it did, somebody mentioned Tanya Tucker, and I was like, that's next. Let's get Tanya Tucker here now. And then we get Tanya Tucker here now, and then you hear about the next guy, and you're like, yeah, yeah, let's get the door open for them, too. And that is just sort of how I've seen it. As soon as I figure out how to get in the door, I'm trying to find a way to prop it open.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's really nice.

• 1:21:27Speaker 02

  That's the next mountain we were talking about. That's what it is. It's, yeah, once you do get what you want, before you sit there and marinate in it long enough to let it change you, get right on to doing that for somebody else.

• 1:21:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because that's where the elation, I mean, I think selfishly, you can pursue that. It's so exciting.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  It is so exciting.

• 1:21:45Dax Shepard?

  It is, right? It's like the number one. Like, I'll pull up to this house, and I'm like, God, we are so lucky. We have a great house. But I look at Monica's house, and I'm like, oh, yeah, look at Monica's house. That's what I'm going on.

• 1:21:55Speaker 02

  That's so funny. I remember when me and the twins, even early on, around maybe the story or give up the ghost, anytime they would like move into a nice house, or get something, like I would go to their house, and I'd be like, hell, yeah.

• 1:22:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:08Speaker 02

  That's because of this job. That's because of this music we're making, like, we're winning.

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't know if I'm like superstitious, and I'm afraid if I let myself experience that, I'll lose everything. And then I can just enjoy it for them without any of those fears. I don't know what's going on, but something so much more joyous about that.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  You can see it objectively when it's not yours.

• 1:22:27Dax Shepard?

  True, yeah, it's quite stark when it's not happening to you. So Phil, one of the twins, married her little sister.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  That's fun. Is it fun?

• 1:22:37Dax Shepard?

  Isn't that fun?

• 1:22:38Speaker 02

  It's really fun.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  Okay, I was gonna say, it could also get complicated in making family.

• 1:22:41Dax Shepard?

  Were they trying to hide it from you at first?

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  Maybe a little bit.

• 1:22:45Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:22:46Speaker 02

  It was really awkward at first, actually.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can imagine that.

• 1:22:49Speaker 02

  Because she was so young. And he was like, not young.

• 1:22:52Dax Shepard?

  He was already older than you as you.

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  He was already older than me. She's my baby sister.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  Yes, you're protected.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  I want to say she was like eighteen.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Oh shit.

• 1:23:00Speaker 02

  And he was twenty-eight, twenty-nine. And we were already in a band. We'd been on the road together. We were kind of bros in a way.

• 1:23:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  And I was like, are you serious right now? And I mean, I thought to myself, it could definitely be the end of anything with me and the twins, because you do not cross my brothers and sisters on my watch.

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  He has that too.

• 1:23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  I mean, everyone has it, because some of you guys have it more than others.

• 1:23:21Dax Shepard?

  I'll kill you if you hurt my sister's feelings.

• 1:23:23Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. My brother and sister, like, no.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if they're in a relationship, there're gonna be some stuff.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  But he's been quite gallant. And honestly, she has really, I don't want to say something demeaning, like, well, she's really grown up, because she's like forty. But like, she has grown up.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  Married to that man.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  That's lovely.

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  And in this band, that is how she has lived the second half of her life.

• 1:23:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  And it's been incredible.

• 1:23:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm so delighted it worked out.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's awesome.

• 1:23:54Dax Shepard?

  Because they've been together for a long time now. Twenty-two years of.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  It's a long time.

• 1:23:58Dax Shepard?

  You've been with your wife for thirteen years?

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  We've been married for fifteen.

• 1:24:03Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:24:04Speaker 02

  And we've been together for like sixteen, seventeen.

• 1:24:06Dax Shepard?

  And so how'd you meet her if she's from England?

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  We met, actually, she was working for Paul McCartney.

• 1:24:11Dax Shepard?

  Oh, right, she was doing his philanthropic work.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I had like a campaign running in Seattle called the Fight the Fear Campaign. We were teaching self-defense courses to women and people in at-risk communities.

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  For free, because there was like a terrible string of like violent crime that had happened in the city that year. And when it kind of culminated in this really awful thing. And so it traveled across to England, and she was reading about this in the newspaper, and basically called up and was like, hey, what can Paul do? What can I do to help with the Paul thing? And I thought to myself, well, I just started this foundation, I need some mentorship.

• 1:24:46Dax Shepard?

  Looking out foundation?

• 1:24:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I had a lot of principles that maybe I was getting in my own way a little bit. So I wanted to have this mentorship thing with her, and we got to talking. And so for like a while, I thought I was talking to somebody Paul McCartney's age.

• 1:25:00Dax Shepard?

  Oh wow.

• 1:25:00Speaker 02

  I thought I was talking to a 70 year old woman.

• 1:25:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay, wow, that's an interesting, that's almost like a reality show, like you can't see the person.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  There is a.

• 1:25:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:08Speaker 02

  It didn't occur to me that she wasn't 70.

• 1:25:10Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  It did not even occur to me. And she was saying 70 year old shit, too.

• 1:25:15Dax Shepard?

  Because she's English, it sounded.

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  Wise stuff.

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:17Dax Shepard?

  At least she took the lift or something.

• 1:25:19Speaker 02

  I don't know, she was doing 70 year old stuff, she was listening to 70 year old music, her and her girlfriend were traveling like 70 year old people. It just had this vibe.

• 1:25:26Dax Shepard?

  Did you have any moment where you're like, I feel like I'm becoming attracted to a 70 year old woman?

• 1:25:30Speaker 02

  No, I just called her the charity lady, I'm like the charity lady. And then, one time I was playing in New York City, and I was like getting ready to go out with all the baby dykes, we were all gonna get on our Vespas and drive to the gay bar and drink tequila. And I couldn't wait, and she came to the show, and I remember the tour manager being like, oh, you're gonna have to say hi to the charity lady, but I was like.

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  Really grateful to her, but.

• 1:25:50Dax Shepard?

  She's in a wheelchair?

• 1:25:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:25:52Dax Shepard?

  She got a walker, how'd you get her backstage?

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  And now 70 is like, that's my age, I love, like that was barely old enough for me to date, but I walked backstage, it's this 27 year old, 28 year old.

• 1:26:02Dax Shepard?

  She's hot, I imagine.

• 1:26:03Speaker 02

  Absolute knockout. Yeah.

• 1:26:06Dax Shepard?

  She ain't no granny.

• 1:26:08Speaker 02

  I mean, and, oh my god, she was so charming, and I loved her accent, and she had black hair and bright blue eyes, and she was wearing this blazer, and she just was like hip, and I was like, cancel my plans, order me a pizza, I've gotta stay with this woman.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  Forever.

• 1:26:23Speaker 02

  Forever.

• 1:26:23Dax Shepard?

  As it turns out. Did she already have a crush on you, she came to the show? She knew you weren't 70, she had that advantage over you.

• 1:26:29Speaker 02

  I don't know if she had a crush on me, she will say no. She will say no.

• 1:26:32Dax Shepard?

  Good for her.

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  But I think, yeah, she probably thought I was pretty cute.

• 1:26:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you come to the show.

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  You come to the show.

• 1:26:39Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now here's another little bit of overlap, what are you smiling at?

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  Well, she's there.

• 1:26:43Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's my god, I did not put that together.

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  I didn't know if you, I was like, should we ask her?

• 1:26:48Dax Shepard?

  I thought you were like the publicist or something.

• 1:26:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:51Dax Shepard?

  Let me look at these blue eyes.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Look how beautiful she is.

• 1:26:55Dax Shepard?

  And now I can say, it was theoretical, you are a fucking smoke show.

• 1:26:58Speaker 02

  She is a smoke.

• 1:27:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  Show.

• 1:27:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  She's absolutely.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  I didn't know what you were doing.

• 1:27:04Dax Shepard?

  You, because you knew.

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:05Dax Shepard?

  I thought it was your publicist.

• 1:27:07Speaker 02

  No, that's my wife, and she manages me now.

• 1:27:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so I wasn't terribly all face.

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  You were.

• 1:27:12Dax Shepard?

  She's got an official capacity and a romantic capacity.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Well, we can ask then, did you have a crush? She's gonna say no.

• 1:27:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, when you came to that show, did you have plans?

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:27:23Dax Shepard?

  I understand.

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  Listen to her talk.

• 1:27:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think we're all intrigued by your voice.

• 1:27:28Speaker 02

  Listen to that voice. Do you see what I was going through?

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's order pizza time.

• 1:27:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's not go all the way into this.

• 1:27:35Dax Shepard?

  Get this girlfriend on here. Doesn't she have some errands to run? We ordered pizza. You can't eat pizza, right? I heard you're gluten intolerant. You don't eat cheese?

• 1:27:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, the cauliflower crust is in the twins stressing room.

• 1:27:46Dax Shepard?

  Down the block.

• 1:27:50Dax Shepard?

  Okay, our other overlap is we're both boat owners.

• 1:27:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:27:53Dax Shepard?

  You have the Captain Fantastic. Gorgeous vessel. I saw some video of you out piloting it.

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  And you have a pontoon.

• 1:28:01Dax Shepard?

  I have a tri-tune. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:02Speaker 02

  So is a tri-tune less redneck than a pontoon?

• 1:28:06Dax Shepard?

  It is. It's the newest iteration. They're more stable.

• 1:28:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:28:11Dax Shepard?

  I have a 400 horsepower V10 on a pontoon, so it moves.

• 1:28:15Speaker 02

  Oh, wow, that really moves.

• 1:28:16Dax Shepard?

  It really moves. I was just on it this weekend.

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  Mercury or Yamaha?

• 1:28:20Dax Shepard?

  A Mercury.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Wow, this language you guys are speaking.

• 1:28:23Dax Shepard?

  You got dual 350s out back?

• 1:28:25Speaker 02

  Dual 400s.

• 1:28:26Dax Shepard?

  Dual 400s, girl. Get it. Okay.

• 1:28:29Speaker 02

  And a big ass kicker.

• 1:28:30Dax Shepard?

  Second engine.

• 1:28:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:31Dax Shepard?

  You've got me doubled in horsepower.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Do you just check out? Yeah, me too.

• 1:28:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we could get into it.

• 1:28:37Speaker 02

  She really checks out.

• 1:28:38Dax Shepard?

  Captain Fantastic named the boat after Elton John.

• 1:28:40Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:28:41Dax Shepard?

  And just congratulations. Looking out foundations giving away nine million bucks. I think that's incredible that you've raised that amount of money.

• 1:28:46Speaker 02

  Doing a lot of different things, too.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, what's?

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  The thing about the foundation is I started the foundation in 2007 when GM wanted to use the story in a television commercial.

• 1:28:57Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:28:57Speaker 02

  And I was really young and idealistic. They offered me like a hundred thousand dollars, you know? And you know how old I was. That's a very big deal.

• 1:29:04Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:29:05Speaker 02

  And I made all these calls to all my friends and I called the Indigo Girls, which if you want to do a television commercial, never call the Indigo Girls. And all my friends were like, you can't do that. GM is one of the biggest contributors to pollution and they've caused all these problems. It is rumored that they've squashed patents and that they're really restricting the progression of the electric car and the hydrogen engine and the things that could help the environment. You can't work with GM. So who knows how much of that was true, but I said no. And so like the VP of Advertising at GM was like, a 20 something year old kid can't say no to $100,000 unless we're getting a really bad reputation. And they called me and they said, what can we do to convince you to let us put your song in the Olympics and give you $100,000?

• 1:29:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm going to make this even better for you.

• 1:29:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so I thought about it and I made some demands and they acquiesced to all of them. And it was really cool, empowering moment for me as a young girl.

• 1:29:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:57Speaker 02

  And then I took that money and started the foundation and that's what we used it for. But since then, the foundation has done the things like Fight the Fear campaign that I was telling you about. We've done a lot to end hunger. We've done a lot of LGBTQ focused stuff. And in recent years, the plight of displaced people and outreach to refugees and asylum seekers, you know, children whose lives have been torn apart by war, immigrants, economic migrants, and the way that we navigate the southern border have become focuses of the Looking Out Foundation.

• 1:30:24Dax Shepard?

  And you did COVID relief stuff.

• 1:30:26Speaker 02

  We are really campaign based, you know, maybe it's ADHD part of me, if that's a real thing for me.

• 1:30:31Dax Shepard?

  I like you're the only person that's actually been diagnosed and you don't want it.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:30:34Dax Shepard?

  Everyone else hasn't been diagnosed and they want it. You're like flipping the script on this.

• 1:30:37Speaker 02

  Terminal uniqueness.

• 1:30:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I feel you.

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  Too many people have it.

• 1:30:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's not punk rock anymore to be ADHD.

• 1:30:45Speaker 02

  No, so that's the foundation.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 1:30:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so Returning to Myself is currently out and you are on tour. You have tour dates that people could go look at, at brandycarlyle.com. And one other things I want to say before I get to be serenaded, which I'm so excited about.

• 1:31:02Speaker 02

  I'm excited.

• 1:31:03Dax Shepard?

  I think that's it. Everyone, listen immediately to Returning to Myself if you're not already obsessed with it and go see Brandy live. This woman is like the Beatles. She's played as many live shows, you're guaranteed for a good show. I mean, you've been playing, it's kind of crazy, right? At 44, you've been playing for 30 plus years.

• 1:31:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's probably like, it's second nature to me by now, but it never gets old. Just like you were saying, it's the best job in the world.

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:28Dax Shepard?

  All right, I would love to hear this song that's going to make me think of my children.

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, my buddy Marcus on and he did this, right? With this drop?

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  Yes, he did.

• 1:31:38Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you don't even need the bottle? Oh my God, this is post bottle.

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  We've never even seen it without the bottle.

• 1:31:43Speaker 02

  I hipged Marcus to this.

• 1:31:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I think he said that. By the way, we loved him.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:31:50Dax Shepard?

  You must love him, right?

• 1:31:51Speaker 02

  Oh my God. We are like sibs, man.

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, he brought you up a lot. He's like loves you.

• 1:31:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, special dude.

• 1:31:58Speaker 02

  I love his solo album.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 1:32:00Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:02Speaker 02

  Self-titled, it's such a good, he's such a good piece of music and really important.

• 1:32:09Speaker 02

  I love Mumford and Sons too, oh my God. Always have.

• 1:32:14Speaker 02

  Keep on with the levels, you want me to sing?

• 1:32:38Dax Shepard?

  You know what's great is we're sitting here talking. You're just so charismatic and special. Before you do this.

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:32:44Dax Shepard?

  And then you do this and I'm like, well, hold on a sec. You can't have all.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  Now you're upset.

• 1:32:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, now I'm a little upset. I'm like, you don't get a superpower on top of having a great personality. You get kind of one or the other.

• 1:32:54Speaker 02

  You guys have plenty of superpowers too.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  Not that one though. That's a hard one.

• 1:32:59Dax Shepard?

  And you haven't even seen me drive that pontoon. That's gotta be what you're referencing.

• 1:33:04Speaker 02

  I can just see the wake though.

• 1:33:07Speaker 02

  So this song, it's about kids that are our kids' age. And it's about these little moments, these little like micro separations where you see them do something that you didn't expect. They're trying something out that they're gonna need later on in life, like when they're not with you. It's called like a you without me moment. And I'm wondering what yours was because my friend Ben, when he first heard this song, he had this moment where it was like, they were at this big party weekend thing and Mark Ronson was DJing and he was gonna let his oldest daughter stay up late and like dance with him on the dance floor. And they're out on the dance floor and they're silly dancing and they're being goofy and they're doing the thing, but she started to like her own music.

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  So she sees a group of older girls, you know, she's maybe 10. And they're like 14 or 15. And he gets distracted and she leaves him and she goes over to them and she starts trying to dance with them, like the way they're dancing and like relate to them. And he said that he looked over there and he saw her and he didn't recognize her. That she was...

• 1:34:10Dax Shepard?

  An independent, autonomous person.

• 1:34:12Speaker 02

  And she was taking a risk and she was using her body and voice in a way that he had never seen.

• 1:34:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:17Speaker 02

  And these are the little like moments where it occurs to you that they're gonna leave.

• 1:34:22Dax Shepard?

  They're their own people.

• 1:34:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they're tiny things at first. And that's what I wrote this song about.

• 1:34:29Speaker 02

  It's called "You Without Me."

• 1:34:37Speaker 02

  Was your smile always crooked? Was the freedom ever free? Do you kick the rocks between your feet? After all this time with me? You can listen to your own records now. Decide what you believe you can pray on stars and skip the gods like stones across the sea. But I would know you anywhere I lost myself in you.

• 1:35:09Speaker 02

  And heavier than this, that you are free to slip right through. Do what you have to do.

• 1:35:24Speaker 02

  And there you are, my morning star. I wondered when you'd show.

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  Give me just a quick thumbs up. A wink before you go. I never heard that voice before today. I remind myself to breathe. And there you are. It's just you. Without me.

• 1:36:07Speaker 02

  I'm late to another game, I guess I've never learned the rules. I showed up with a broken name and handed it to you. I'm not sure if you can fix it now, but if you wanted to, I would follow you around and carry all your tools.

• 1:36:31Speaker 02

  Cause I would know you anywhere, I found myself in you.

• 1:36:41Speaker 02

  And heavy are the hands that hold the changes you go through. Do what you have to do.

• 1:36:56Speaker 02

  And there you are, my morning star. I wondered when you'd show. Give me a just a quick thumbs up, a wink before you go.

• 1:37:16Speaker 02

  I never heard that voice before today, I remind myself to breathe. And there you are, it's just you, without me.

• 1:37:33Speaker 02

  Without me.

• 1:37:39Speaker 02

  It's as predictable as time and age, but comforting in some strange way. The time makes every one of us an absolute cliché. And when I met you face to face, none of it was true, so who am I if I'm not you?

• 1:38:08Speaker 02

  There you are, my morning star. I wondered when you'd show.

• 1:38:18Speaker 02

  Give me a just a quick thumbs up. A wink before you go.

• 1:38:28Speaker 02

  I never heard that voice before today. I remind myself to breathe. I'll never just have thought away. If ever you need me. You're gonna live a lot of life. You're gonna see a lot of years. God willing.

• 1:38:46Speaker 02

  Just you.

• 1:38:49Speaker 02

  Without me. There you are. It's just you.

• 1:39:02Speaker 02

  Without me.

• 1:39:13Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it's so sad.

• 1:39:14Speaker 01

  That was beautiful. It's so beautiful.

• 1:39:17Dax Shepard?

  It's the without me part that's so sad. Every time you say without me. They go, oh, yeah, you're gonna have a whole life without me.

• 1:39:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  Gorgeous, gorgeous.

• 1:39:28Dax Shepard?

  It's bittersweet, isn't it?

• 1:39:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:39:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. You gotta go like, oh, yeah, and that's a sign I did a good job. That's all you get.

• 1:39:38Dax Shepard?

  They're just like, see ya.

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  I know. They're not. Think about how you think about your parents.

• 1:39:42Speaker 02

  Well, I know, but there was a moment.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  I know, there is.

• 1:39:45Dax Shepard?

  I got my twenties to do, girl. I'll talk to you later. My twenties is coming, you know? You gotta do your twenties.

• 1:39:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:51Dax Shepard?

  And then involve mom and dad.

• 1:39:53Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:39:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:54Speaker 02

  No, and then hopefully it comes back around.

• 1:39:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:56Dax Shepard?

  But I want it for them.

• 1:39:58Speaker 02

  They go and they just do like one little thing. It's one little interaction you see them do. Point they make. One thing they disagree about where they win the argument.

• 1:40:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:07Speaker 02

  And you're like, there you are.

• 1:40:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:09Speaker 02

  That's who you're gonna be for the rest of your life. Without me.

• 1:40:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no, take me. I'll carry your tools, like you said.

• 1:40:17Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:40:18Dax Shepard?

  I'll run and get coffee.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  Well, that was beautiful. Thank you so much.

• 1:40:22Dax Shepard?

  Your tiny desk, by the way, is so good.

• 1:40:24Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:40:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I fucking love tiny desk. And you nailed yours.

• 1:40:28Speaker 02

  I like tiny desk too.

• 1:40:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it'll show you who's what.

• 1:40:31Speaker 02

  Separates the wheat from the chaff.

• 1:40:32Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 1:40:33Speaker 02

  Have you seen Dochi's Tiny Desk?

• 1:40:34Dax Shepard?

  No, it's great. It's incredible.

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  Or the Silk Sonic drummer.

• 1:40:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, Anderson Paak.

• 1:40:40Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 1:40:40Dax Shepard?

  We had him on and we were like...

• 1:40:42Speaker 02

  That is just insane.

• 1:40:43Dax Shepard?

  What a dude.

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  What a vibe, too.

• 1:40:45Dax Shepard?

  Did you watch that, um, I could talk to you for seven hours, just side note. I'm gonna wrap this up, but did you watch the Super Bowl halftime show with Dr. Dre? Obviously, he's the most memorable one ever.

• 1:40:54Speaker 02

  Yep. They were all wearing Rich Fresh tracksuits, baby blue, powder blue. It was so cool.

• 1:40:59Dax Shepard?

  But when they pan over and I'm like, Anderson Paak's playing the drums this whole time?

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  Of course he is. Yeah, I know.

• 1:41:06Dax Shepard?

  Incredible.

• 1:41:08Speaker 02

  That is how stacked that lineup was. You didn't even see Anderson Paak playing the drums.

• 1:41:12Dax Shepard?

  Exactly. Eleven minutes in, you're like, oh, damn, Anderson's been playing the drums this whole time.

• 1:41:17Speaker 02

  Why doesn't everybody call that halftime out? Like, everybody says, I mean, Prince, and I mean, Prince was amazing.

• 1:41:22Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:41:22Speaker 02

  But it's like...

• 1:41:23Dax Shepard?

  No, that's number one.

• 1:41:24Speaker 02

  Pretty epic.

• 1:41:24Dax Shepard?

  It was epic. I think, too, if you're a poor kid.

• 1:41:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:27Dax Shepard?

  I was crying during that whole thing. I'm like, these kids are from down the block. And Tipper Gore was saying they were gonna destroy America.

• 1:41:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:34Dax Shepard?

  And everyone hated them. And they were the poor kids. And look at them. And they are the show.

• 1:41:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I loved it.

• 1:41:41Speaker 02

  See, you have the vibe that the old gays have now about the young gays.

• 1:41:44Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 1:41:45Speaker 02

  That's like, that's poor, you're like, you got old, poor kid thing going on like that.

• 1:41:49Dax Shepard?

  Exactly.

• 1:41:50Speaker 02

  That's the thing.

• 1:41:50Dax Shepard?

  That's my gateway into understanding.

• 1:41:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. We're like, let's talk about coming from nothing right now.

• 1:41:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And then owning the world. These motherfuckers own the world. Nothing could be better. Well, Brandy, this has been a delight. Yes, thank you for joining us. Yeah, so nice. I'm really glad. Anna's got good taste. She sure does. When she picks a mentor, boy, it's few and far between. That's true. Yeah, thank you so much for coming. This has been so lovely.

• 1:42:12Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:42:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:13Speaker 02

  I've always wanted to talk to you guys.

• 1:42:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God, please come back.

• 1:42:17Speaker 02

  Have me back.

• 1:42:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, we'd love to. Anytime.

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  Okay, we just ordered drinks.

• 1:42:31Dax Shepard?

  Oh, uh huh.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  From Arowan.

• 1:42:33Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:42:33Speaker 01

  And I'm putting in, I'm trying to order it and it's saying, you, you have to meet at the door. This can't be left. It's like, that's weird. Okay, sure.

• 1:42:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  Then it says you have to show your ID and we ordered you something new.

• 1:42:47Dax Shepard?

  Do you think that's just a standard disclaimer in case you've ordered alcohol?

• 1:42:50Speaker 01

  No, because I order Arowan like every day, or not every day.

• 1:42:54Dax Shepard?

  I mean.

• 1:42:54Speaker 01

  But I order a lot.

• 1:42:55Dax Shepard?

  I bet you can predict my reaction to this. Which is like, fine, fuck you. We won't order from you.

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:43:01Dax Shepard?

  You don't leave it. You gotta show ID. It's like, this is my, my beef with the place that required a signature no matter what. It's like our policy. It's like, great. Well, then I won't, I won't be using you.

• 1:43:09Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, I already ordered it.

• 1:43:11Dax Shepard?

  You didn't predict that?

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  No, I didn't. Because I, what I of course think is, so you got a new drink.

• 1:43:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, uh huh.

• 1:43:18Speaker 01

  We don't know about. It's like new and strange. It has colostrum in it.

• 1:43:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think that's the only strange part. Everything else is not new or strange.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  Maybe that is what's requiring it.

• 1:43:28Dax Shepard?

  Hey, you gotta be an adult to drink. Or maybe you gotta be a baby to drink colostrum.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  To show you're under 21?

• 1:43:34Dax Shepard?

  You gotta show you're under two years old.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Oh my God. Well, anyway.

• 1:43:38Dax Shepard?

  We didn't anticipate that being the s-.

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  We didn't, but I think this is interesting that.

• 1:43:43Dax Shepard?

  I do too.

• 1:43:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, you got breast milk in your coffee?

• 1:43:46Dax Shepard?

  There was no.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  I know. I want to make, yeah, it has, it has colostrum in it.

• 1:43:50Dax Shepard?

  There's no alcohol in it. So why would you need an ID?

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's why I'm not, but now I have to check.

• 1:43:54Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  Just.

• 1:43:57Dax Shepard?

  I mean, I would detect alcohol immediately. Uh, that's interesting. That was in last night's meeting I was at.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 1:44:05Dax Shepard?

  Well, just people are kind of, one person told a story about ordering a, you know, a Coke and it came. There's always these moments for alcoholics where inevitably you're gonna bump into some real alcohol.

• 1:44:16Speaker 01

  Oh my God. Yeah. Tell me how that goes.

• 1:44:18Dax Shepard?

  Um, my, um, you know, my second dad and I were one time in, in Wyoming and, um, and I ordered a Diet Coke and he ordered a ginger ale. And our drinks came and, and we both took a sip of them almost at the same time. And I mean, it was like, oh, this is Jack and Diet. And then he's putting his drink down and he goes. This is what was really funny is he goes, try this. Is there jet like,

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  Oh God.

• 1:44:49Dax Shepard?

  He wasn't really thinking, he was just doing what you would normally do if you say something funny.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:54Dax Shepard?

  And I was like, I'll take your word for it. He's like, oh yeah, yeah, you shouldn't try it. But it was just kind of instinctual. Like, does this smell funny?

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  Right, totally.

• 1:45:02Dax Shepard?

  Does this taste like, anyways, they were both laced with Jack Daniels.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  That?

• 1:45:06Dax Shepard?

  A Jack ginger and a Jack and diet.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  I have a lot, like, look, I have a lot of respect for servers and food staff and chefs and kitchen workers. But that makes me so angry.

• 1:45:20Dax Shepard?

  It does?

• 1:45:21Speaker 01

  Yes. That kind of mistake, only that one.

• 1:45:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:24Speaker 01

  Is so bad. That is so dangerous. People don't understand what can happen.

• 1:45:31Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure. I mean, look, we could, we could look at this from a lot of different angles. Um, I would just say right out of the gates, what percentage of people in the restaurant at any given time are recovering addicts? It's like a lot to-

• 1:45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you have to protect the most vulnerable.

• 1:45:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. I just, I imagine he's got tickets and he, you know, or she, the bartender got, um, you know, six different cokes and Jack and I got mistakes happen.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  I see how it happened. I'm not like, but I do think it is incumbent is your responsibility. If you're a bartender or what, yeah, I guess it was bartender, right?

• 1:46:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. It's the kind of restaurant they gotta put in the drink order with the bartender.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  To be aware if there shouldn't be alcohol in the drink.

• 1:46:18Dax Shepard?

  But what you-

• 1:46:19Speaker 01

  It could be for a kid.

• 1:46:20Dax Shepard?

  Well, thank you. I was just, I just had gotten to that place in my head where I was like, if it's happened to me and it's happened to Tom and it's happened to, well, almost every dude in the meeting had had this. Yeah, surely kids are getting, and do they think like, oh, this just tastes funny, but I still like soda? No, it's too gross.

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  Something's wrong with it.

• 1:46:38Dax Shepard?

  I like to think that some kid just powered through it.

• 1:46:41Speaker 01

  And became an alcoholic.

• 1:46:44Dax Shepard?

  Well, again, most people who drink don't become alcoholic.

• 1:46:46Speaker 01

  A lot of us do.

• 1:46:48Dax Shepard?

  This is a fun like philosophical conversation, which is like, I don't think it's the responsibility of the masses to be changing their whole life because some small percentage of the population has a thing. I just don't think that's-

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  Generally don't either, but this isn't changing anything. This is just being careful.

• 1:47:09Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, I mean, even the notion that like, well, you can't have a, if a kid drank, he'd be an alcoholic. Well, it's like, well, that's not true. Most people that drink aren't alcoholics.

• 1:47:18Speaker 01

  So that's fine.

• 1:47:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but I think that would be a common kind of reaction.

• 1:47:22Speaker 01

  Well, no, I think they're just like, don't give my kid alcohol. Like, that's very, that's bad.

• 1:47:28Dax Shepard?

  You want to decide when your kid has alcohol.

• 1:47:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and it is illegal.

• 1:47:34Dax Shepard?

  I'm so sorry. I have it on do not disturb, but for some reason it's still, yeah, do not disturb. Why would you be buzzing?

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  See, it's like my, my doorbell.

• 1:47:42Dax Shepard?

  You're not supposed to buzz. Oh, it's because it's Kristen.

• 1:47:45Speaker 01

  Oh, she has an override?

• 1:47:47Dax Shepard?

  She has an override if she calls. And now I'm realizing she has an override if she texts too.

• 1:47:53Speaker 01

  Does she have to call twice or text twice or just immediately is an override?

• 1:47:57Dax Shepard?

  Anytime she calls, it'll actually ring.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  Oh, that's nice.

• 1:48:01Dax Shepard?

  I learned that from Toto Wolf. Remember he was in the interview and his phone rang twice? Once was his wife and once was one of his children.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, that's right.

• 1:48:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And he said, oh, and I was like, I didn't even know you could do that.

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  That's cool. Um, okay. I did look it up and cold brew coffee with cowboy colostrum. Though like, what does it mean cowboy colostrum? But okay. Heavy cream and maple syrup. That's all it's saying. Oh, enhanced with lucama, maca and sea salt.

• 1:48:29Dax Shepard?

  Maybe they don't want kids to have maca because it's a lot of caffeine or some shit.

• 1:48:32Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 1:48:33Dax Shepard?

  I'm just thinking that like, it's a policy gone awry. It's like they flagged some certain thing and now this got ensnared in it.

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  I bet it's colostrum, but we need to figure out why, like-

• 1:48:45Dax Shepard?

  Need it further.

• 1:48:46Speaker 01

  Oh my God. What if you get addicted? To colostrum now.

• 1:48:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I'm gonna get in trouble for this. But it's in keeping with this conversation we already have. I just had read that they're like sentencing someone who is in between. I don't know what chain of events they were involved with the Matthew Perry overdose.

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  Oh, I've heard about this.

• 1:49:05Dax Shepard?

  And they just got sentenced and I think someone else got sentenced.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Like a doctor, I think, right?

• 1:49:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and my kids and I were talking about it. And I was like, no, that's not how it should work. My analogy was Yamaha Kawasaki, all these motorcycle companies. They all sell motorcycles that go 200 miles an hour. They're for sale at the dealership. A 16 year old can walk in and buy it. They don't have to prove at all that they've ever ridden a thing. And quite often those kids go out and they die on motorcycles. It's way too much motorcycle.

• 1:49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:36Dax Shepard?

  That's, that is living in a country with liberty. Like you do have the right to be a mountain climber, to do dangerous activities.

• 1:49:45Speaker 01

  That's not the same.

• 1:49:47Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, it's identical if you, if you remove the word legal or illegal. And you just say that there are many products that are sold that are just inherently dangerous. Motorcycles, drugs, guns.

• 1:49:59Speaker 01

  Alcohol.

• 1:50:00Dax Shepard?

  Alcohol.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:01Dax Shepard?

  Cigarettes.

• 1:50:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:50:03Dax Shepard?

  Cars.

• 1:50:05Dax Shepard?

  There are products that are dangerous.

• 1:50:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:07Dax Shepard?

  And I really believe unless it's a situation like Big Tobacco where they know it causes cancer and they're stifling that information. Like I think you should have full awareness as a consumer of what the, I think it should be like, yeah, you're gonna buy this motorcycle. It goes 200 miles an hour, you kill yourself really easily. Okay, now if you want to do that, that's like, it's your life. So no, I don't think someone that sells a dangerous product should go to jail because someone else used the dangerous product and killed themselves. I think it's the person who used it has to have the responsibility.

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  Well, not if it's a doctor. It's a doctor, I think, that got in trouble. I think, maybe I'm wrong about that.

• 1:50:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but again.

• 1:50:48Speaker 01

  If it's not a doctor, I'm more aligned with you, but.

• 1:50:51Dax Shepard?

  But let's just say that what I guarantee is that the doctor hadn't.

• 1:50:57Dax Shepard?

  Given him a dosage that killed him. What I guarantee is that he had multiple sources or stockpiled or whatever. And he took on his own a dose that no doctor would ever recommend.

• 1:51:10Speaker 01

  Well, we don't know that.

• 1:51:11Dax Shepard?

  We, I do.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  How? Like, Michael Jackson's doctor also gave him way too much. Like, they're giving what the people are asking for, and that's the whole issue. It's they have a do not do no harm obligation. And if it's just like, well, this person's paying me and just wanting more than really I should give, but I'm giving it, that's a problem.

• 1:51:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we would, we would need more, but I can tell you.

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  We wouldn't.

• 1:51:34Dax Shepard?

  From everyone I've known who's overdosed in the last 30 years of sobriety. No one was taking it as prescribed.

• 1:51:43Speaker 01

  Right, but this was ketamine.

• 1:51:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  It's a little more.

• 1:51:46Dax Shepard?

  So there is a safe dosage of ketamine. A lot of people in this country have ketamine prescriptions.

• 1:51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:52Dax Shepard?

  But like, if I got a prescription for Percocet, right? The 1.0s, the big boys. And it says, take one every four hours. And I take that jar and I take eight right away.

• 1:52:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:06Dax Shepard?

  That's on me.

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  No, that is on you, though.

• 1:52:08Dax Shepard?

  And what he did, what our boy did was he OD'd. He took way more than was prescribed to him, for sure.

• 1:52:15Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know if it's for sure, because then every doctor who had an OD, had someone OD'd would be in trouble, and that's not the case.

• 1:52:24Dax Shepard?

  Right, the only thing that makes the, I think this reason this person's going to jail is because A, the person that died was famous. I think a bunch of people have OD'd on ketamine and other drugs, and there was not even an investigation. Like, yeah, someone OD'd. That's what happens on drugs when they're abused. But because it's him, they're like, well, we gotta figure out who killed Matthew Perry. That's not what, no one killed him.

• 1:52:48Speaker 01

  Well, again, I don't know that this is. Don't know enough about this doctor or what was being prescribed.

• 1:52:55Dax Shepard?

  I do know that I read what he was on when he died and it was an insane amount of ketamine and it was not what his prescription was.

• 1:53:03Speaker 05

  He was a drug counselor that connected Perry to the ketamine queen who delivered him the ketamine.

• 1:53:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  Ketamine queen is tricky.

• 1:53:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't know enough about her.

• 1:53:15Speaker 01

  That's like.

• 1:53:16Dax Shepard?

  At the end of the day, he did it. No one else did it. He did it.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if you're a doctor, you you can't.

• 1:53:22Dax Shepard?

  You think ketamine queen was a doctor?

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  I assume. Let me look it up.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  Yes, this person, British American convicted felon and drug dealer known as the Ketamine Queen. She gained international attention following her indictment and subsequent guilty plea in connection with the overdose of actor Maitreya. Let me see if she's a doctor. She looks kind of Indian.

• 1:53:42Dax Shepard?

  Kind of Indian?

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  Prosecutors allege that she operated a drug distribution network from her North Hollywood home for several years. Sentenced to 15 years in prison for her role in supplying the ketamine that would cause Perry's death.

• 1:53:56Dax Shepard?

  Just think how many people drink to a fatal level. It happens a ton.

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you can get in trouble for over serving.

• 1:54:04Dax Shepard?

  I can go into the store and I can buy 10 fifths.

• 1:54:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 1:54:07Dax Shepard?

  So we would agree, the Jack Daniels company should not be held responsible because someone went and bought.

• 1:54:14Speaker 01

  But how did she even get the ketamine, this lady? She's probably, I mean, it's clearly illegal. What she's doing is illegal. So that's why she's going to jail.

• 1:54:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, she's a drug dealer.

• 1:54:23Speaker 01

  Drug dealers, you know, but I agree that if you, I think drug dealers in certain cases should go to jail.

• 1:54:32Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you do?

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're getting illegal drugs off the black market. I mean, yes, you're engaging in a lot of illegal activity.

• 1:54:38Dax Shepard?

  I think the time that I'd be fine with a drug dealer going to jail would be when the drug dealer knowingly sold someone. Fentanyl, under the guise of it being heroin knowingly.

• 1:54:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, obviously that. Then they're a murderer.

• 1:54:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, exactly. Then the person that got it can't really dose it correctly. And they have deceitfully misled this person, which may have caused their death. But if I'm selling you crack cocaine, I go, hey, bro, this is crack. You know, do what it with you. I really don't think it's on the person who sold it.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  They got it illegally. No one gets crack legally.

• 1:55:19Dax Shepard?

  That's kind of what I'm trying to have the conversation about is because we labeled alcohol legal in this other thing illegal, yet we clearly think because alcohol is legal, that no one's responsible if someone drinks themselves to death. And so you're saying that because one is classified by the government as illegal and one is legal, that that should make the person who sells it go to prison?

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  Yes, because there are regulations on actual alcohol, like you, it's labeled 12% and blah, but like crack is not like it's if crack was legal, then it would probably be under some sort of system where you'd see the amount, it would be like supervised in a way.

• 1:55:55Dax Shepard?

  And no one would be held responsible.

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:58Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:55:59Speaker 01

  But that's fine then. I am fine. If we lived in a world where it was legal and it was regulated, I mean, this was a whole, this is the whole debate about marijuana for years and years and years, which now.

• 1:56:09Dax Shepard?

  And all these people went to prison and were held responsible for other people's abuse of something.

• 1:56:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:15Dax Shepard?

  And I think we all now agree that was a bad, that was wrong.

• 1:56:18Speaker 01

  Right. But also because now just because like marijuana isn't a problem.

• 1:56:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:22Speaker 01

  But crack is a problem. You agree.

• 1:56:24Dax Shepard?

  Well, let's keep it to ketamine because you can get a prescription for ketamine. There is ketamine therapy. People do use ketamine therapeutically. I personally don't think it's a great idea to use ketamine.

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  Because why?

• 1:56:39Dax Shepard?

  Because I've seen it go wrong, more than I've seen it go right. And not even in death. I've seen a very temporary patch for something that long term wasn't a good solution.

• 1:56:51Speaker 01

  Right. And you think it has a risk of addiction?

• 1:56:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, just like cigarettes, alcohol, caffeine. Most things that-

• 1:57:02Speaker 01

  Do you think it's more or less? I'm actually asking because I don't know a lot about ketamine.

• 1:57:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't. I've never taken ketamine, so I don't know how sticky it is.

• 1:57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:12Dax Shepard?

  I know how sticky opiates are.

• 1:57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:57:14Dax Shepard?

  Um, I know how sticky cocaine is. I know how sticky alcohol is. I know cigarettes like-

• 1:57:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:20Dax Shepard?

  Of all of them, cigarettes are the stickiest. There's a bunch of junkies that'll tell you quitting smoking was harder than quitting heroin.

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  But again, that's why like, because it's legal, it says like, basically it says on the box, like this is gonna kill you.

• 1:57:34Dax Shepard?

  But my only issue with cigarette manufacturers were when they knew it was causing something.

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, horrible.

• 1:57:40Dax Shepard?

  And, and they silenced that.

• 1:57:41Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:57:42Dax Shepard?

  And, and so to me, if you have total transparency, um, I do think we, I want to live in a country where people get to evaluate the risks they want to take. And then also we, I don't think it's fair to the 90% of people or even the 94% of people who try cocaine and don't become addicted. I don't think it's fair to those people that because us 8% have a problem, you guys can't do it. I don't think that's fair.

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  Well, we can't do it because it's not regulated and there is fentanyl in it. And there is like, there's so many, it's not, are you saying you think cocaine should be legalized?

• 1:58:14Dax Shepard?

  No, I, I don't think that. Um, I, I, I think that, um, we've seen the experiment run and doesn't work. That's my opinion on, on many classifications of drugs.

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:58:24Dax Shepard?

  I do think they're too addictive and I think the barriers that exist are what help it going from 94% of people never getting addicted to, you know, the eight. I think if it were-

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:58:36Dax Shepard?

  Five dollars for an eight ball and it was at 7-Eleven, I think you would see a massive uptick.

• 1:58:40Speaker 01

  You would.

• 1:58:41Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:58:41Speaker 01

  And it would affect every single person, whether you're an addict or you're not.

• 1:58:44Dax Shepard?

  So that's one topic. Do I think it should be legalized? And then another topic is, do I think people are responsible for distributing a product that's dangerous? And someone abuses it? And dies. I don't. I don't think the kid who breaks the speed limit on his new Yamaha R1 and is going 180 on the five and kills himself, I don't think the dealer is responsible.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  I don't either.

• 1:59:08Dax Shepard?

  I don't think Yamaha is responsible.

• 1:59:09Speaker 01

  But again, the difference is, I just, we're, I do think the difference is legality.

• 1:59:15Dax Shepard?

  I know, but that's just really, we would agree that's arbitrary. Like weed wasn't legal two years ago and, and now it is.

• 1:59:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59:24Dax Shepard?

  And so now we, now we think that it's like, well, that should have been consistent.

• 1:59:29Speaker 01

  Cause like it, it, it, it doesn't do that much harm. There's been, we have enough, we have enough evidence of all of these drugs at this point to, to rank.

• 1:59:42Dax Shepard?

  How lethal they are.

• 1:59:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, and lethal to yourself and like, you know, to society, like what it's gonna cause.

• 1:59:50Dax Shepard?

  Then we get even more fun debate, which is sometimes the ones that aren't lethal are weirdly more dangerous. So like weed and alcohol.

• 1:59:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:00Dax Shepard?

  I think bizarrely, they can take more of a toll on your overall life because they're not so extreme that you can habitually do them forever and lose big chunks of your existence.

• 2:00:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:15Dax Shepard?

  Weed's gonna be, I think at some, there's gonna be, one, there'll be some study at some point when we have 20 years of data on what happened with this experiment. And although I'm in favor of it, we're gonna see it's just a more innocuous, it has more innocuous and subtle consequences that are currently being completely ignored.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  Sure. Like in a way that maybe, maybe if someone is addicted to caffeine and then they can't sleep and then they have a bad, you know, like, yes, there are consequences for anything you do, anything. You could eat sugar.

• 2:00:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  You know, like, where do we draw the line?

• 2:00:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:56Speaker 01

  And I think you have to draw it at, you have to draw it somewhere. Obviously. I think we both agree. We can't just have a free for all situation.

• 2:01:06Dax Shepard?

  We have the data for it. Back in the early 1900s, when these cure-alls, when people went town to town with cure-alls, and 30% of the cure-all was opium. You saw, there was a moment in America where like 30% of the country was addicted to opiates. So you, we have data that when you make it wildly available and it's not illegal.

• 2:01:26Speaker 01

  It's bad.

• 2:01:26Dax Shepard?

  You're gonna have a third of the population. So back to the weed. What makes me think we will at some point reevaluate it a little bit? Not to say we're ever gonna make it illegal again, or that we should.

• 2:01:39Dax Shepard?

  But my anecdotal experience is I drive Delta to school every morning on my motorcycle. And when I, well, both directions, but certainly I'm more aware of it when I'm driving home by myself. I smell weed the whole way home in LA.

• 2:01:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:53Dax Shepard?

  And I have to go like, oh yeah, so now that it's legal, a lot of people have transferred to, many, many people are getting stoned the second they wake up. And on their way to work and walking around in the morning.

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:02:06Dax Shepard?

  I'm not judgmental of it, but I am suggesting that's gonna show a little burble. We're gonna see some, some down river consequences of people waking up and immediately getting stoned.

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  I mean, my guess is yes, but I also don't know. We have Seth Rogen, you know, he's extremely not affected negatively at all.

• 2:02:25Dax Shepard?

  For sure.

• 2:02:26Speaker 01

  This is a hard one for me because I don't like weed. Like personally, I don't take it. I don't enjoy it. So I don't feel like I have a dog in this fight, really.

• 2:02:37Dax Shepard?

  Here's what you don't see. I saw it one time. Well, I've seen it a couple of times. I saw it in Russia when I was there in 1996, I guess. And it had, you know, the wall had only fallen at that point for what, seven years or something? And driving in the morning from the boat to Catherine's Palace. I saw hundreds, if not thousands of men drinking vodka at 8 a.m. on the sidewalk.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  It's cultural. Yep.

• 2:03:05Dax Shepard?

  And you go, hmm, that town has a drinking problem. And then we went to Sweden right after. And then we learned of Sweden's taxation of vodka. Because Sweden went, we got a drinking problem. And so they wanted to start addressing it somehow. And what I'm saying is if you were driving home from anywhere at 8 a.m. in the morning and you saw one in three people chugging alcohol. Vodka or beer? You go, huh, this isn't great.

• 2:03:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:39Dax Shepard?

  But weed, this is what I'm talking about. It's innocuous quality, which is like, yeah, I do believe you can smoke weed and drive your car and smoke weed and probably go to work and do a fine job. I don't think you're gonna do a hundred percent. I don't think.

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  I don't either, but I don't also know. Like, I don't know, because I, I just don't.

• 2:04:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I just think any other, it's just interesting how it's already like folded into our culture. And it's kind of like you, you observe people smoking weed all morning in LA and you.

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  It might be because it's still, I mean, not in a, not really new, but kind of, it's still kind of newly legal.

• 2:04:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:16Speaker 01

  And as you said, like, we could be seeing one in three people drinking all day and we don't. And I think that probably has to do with just the fact that it's been around for so long and.

• 2:04:26Dax Shepard?

  And you can't function as well. And you can't, if you show up to where you smell like it and socially, we're like, no, no, you can't drink in the morning.

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:04:34Dax Shepard?

  I think it's interesting, you can smoke weed in the morning, it's fine. No one really gives a shit.

• 2:04:37Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think most people do. I think most people, if they hear that are like, what? That's crazy. I think some people maybe don't, but I think the majority of people who, who hear that somebody woke up in the morning and started smoking weed immediately are probably a little concerned about that person. I am.

• 2:04:56Dax Shepard?

  Well, I just saw this, this, I saw these two ladies, they have a podcast about ADHD. They're both ADHD and they were talking about why many ADHD people love weed because it's a dopamine dysregulation condition and that you can get dopamine from the weed. So initially they're talking about, it's almost like heavily in support of ADHD people using it, or at least maybe not feeling guilty that they're using it because it is like a good medicine for them. But then they were also very quite honest to say, and 36% of ADHD cannabis users have cannabis use disorder.

• 2:05:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:35Dax Shepard?

  So it's like, it's over a third. And I also think weed, it has benefited from the fact that we've been saying forever it's not addictive. It is not physically addictive. You're not going to go through withdrawals of the physical variety when you stop doing it, but you're going to go through a lot and you

• 2:05:55Speaker 01

  Mental withdrawal for sure.

• 2:05:56Dax Shepard?

  And your brain chemistry is going to adjust for a while. And so I also don't think we're being totally honest about like, oh, it's not addictive. No, no. Many, many people are fully addicted to weed and their tolerance has gone up and up and their dosage has gone up and up and up.

• 2:06:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:11Dax Shepard?

  And they're smoking, you know.

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  A lot of addictions are also mental, like so many are that will kill you. Like not, not, not just, it's not just like a silly thing to say. It's very, you know, my brother used to smoke so much weed. It was like, it's not addictive. It's not addictive. And I'm like, you are addicted. I can tell because, because you, you keep getting in trouble for this. It's having a consequence and you can't or won't stop.

• 2:06:38Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:06:39Speaker 01

  So maybe yes, it's not physically addictive, but mentally you are addicted.

• 2:06:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:44Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:06:45Dax Shepard?

  And you probably won't suck a dick for weed. You probably won't break into a house for weed. And there's like, there is a, even when you're jonesing for it, it doesn't reach the level of jonesing for opiates or jonesing for, yeah.

• 2:06:57Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 2:07:10Dax Shepard?

  It's fascinating.

• 2:07:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is interesting.

• 2:07:12Dax Shepard?

  I think, I think though, we'll have a bit of a reckoning. I think it should stay legal. Again, I don't think that the many, the millions of people that are doing it like on the weekends or relax or taking a gummy to go to sleep. I don't want those people to lose that.

• 2:07:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:07:26Dax Shepard?

  They should have that. And also dickheads like me are going to fuck it up and abuse it. And then there's also going to probably be some questions about when you start doing it, at what age and what kind of effects it has on your brain development. If you're a heavy weed user.

• 2:07:42Speaker 01

  Well, maybe they will start, maybe eventually they'll be, is it right now? Now, is there an age thing?

• 2:07:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, eighteen.

• 2:07:48Speaker 01

  Eighteen.

• 2:07:49Dax Shepard?

  Well, I don't know if it's eighteen or twenty one. It would make sense that it was twenty one, but I have no clue.

• 2:07:53Speaker 01

  I would assume it would be twenty one and it and it.

• 2:07:56Dax Shepard?

  I probably won't get carded. I know that.

• 2:07:57Speaker 05

  It's twenty one.

• 2:07:58Dax Shepard?

  It's twenty one?

• 2:07:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:08:00Speaker 01

  Wow, that's a really big ding ding ding because I want to.

• 2:08:02Dax Shepard?

  Getting carded?

• 2:08:03Speaker 01

  Yep, I was at Chili's this past weekend.

• 2:08:06Dax Shepard?

  Oh, with your mom?

• 2:08:07Speaker 01

  With my mom and dad in Duluth.

• 2:08:09Dax Shepard?

  You guys went over to Chili's?

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  We did.

• 2:08:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, great.

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was my idea.

• 2:08:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, good. Did you get the potato skins?

• 2:08:15Speaker 01

  I didn't. I got the quesadilla, which is my thing there.

• 2:08:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  And the problem is, my mom had made quesadillas the day before, homemade, homemade tortillas, homemade everything, and they were so good.

• 2:08:30Dax Shepard?

  Mmm, gourmet.

• 2:08:31Speaker 01

  They were really gourmet.

• 2:08:33Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:08:33Speaker 01

  And then I had this idea about the Chili's quesadillas because it's so nostalgic.

• 2:08:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:40Speaker 01

  And it was, it was, it was good. It was fine.

• 2:08:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:43Speaker 01

  I just probably shouldn't have had it the next day after these like really one of a kind quesadillas.

• 2:08:49Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:08:50Speaker 01

  We were, we were at, obviously TJ, my mom and I went to TJ Maxx, obviously.

• 2:08:54Dax Shepard?

  I thought you were about to say TGIF. I was like, wow, you guys hit Fridays and Chili's in one weekend.

• 2:08:58Speaker 01

  We went to TJ Maxx, which we always do. We went to Kohl's. We went to Nordstrom Rack. They're all in the same area.

• 2:09:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:03Speaker 01

  We're, we're shopping and then there's the Chili's right there, our Chili's, where like I grew up going. And I asked, oh, my mom had asked earlier, what do you want to do for dinner? And I was like, I don't know. And then I said, have you guys been to the Chili's? Do you guys still go there? And she was like, yeah, we go. And she was like, do you want to do that for dinner? And I was like, yeah.

• 2:09:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:24Speaker 01

  I do want to. So then my dad met us.

• 2:09:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay, where was he?

• 2:09:28Speaker 01

  He was at home. He wasn't going to TJ.

• 2:09:30Dax Shepard?

  In his retirement?

• 2:09:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, he was, he's not going to TJ Maxx and Nordstrom Rack and stuff. No.

• 2:09:36Dax Shepard?

  No, I would rather die.

• 2:09:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was home, but then he came to meet us and, and we ate there and I got carded.

• 2:09:44Dax Shepard?

  Oh, lovely. That's cute.

• 2:09:46Speaker 01

  It was cute.

• 2:09:47Dax Shepard?

  Flattering.

• 2:09:48Speaker 01

  It was cute. And then the.

• 2:09:49Dax Shepard?

  What was your cocktail at Chili's?

• 2:09:51Speaker 01

  It was a margarita.

• 2:09:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:52Speaker 01

  I didn't finish. It was bad.

• 2:09:54Dax Shepard?

  Super. Sugary.

• 2:09:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I I said, can I get a Casamigos one, but skinny? And those were, you know, two separate things, basically. And he was like, oh, I don't know. I have to ask. And I was like, charge me for the expensive Casamigos one, but just make it skinny.

• 2:10:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, no way. That's gonna happen back there.

• 2:10:12Speaker 01

  It didn't happen. Yeah, I don't know what happened, but it tasted very, very bad.

• 2:10:16Dax Shepard?

  That cocktail.

• 2:10:17Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:10:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:18Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:10:19Dax Shepard?

  Was it so beautiful in Georgia? Is it green as hell right now? Spring?

• 2:10:22Speaker 01

  It's pretty green. Yeah, it's nice.

• 2:10:25Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:10:25Speaker 01

  It's nice.

• 2:10:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:10:26Speaker 01

  It's nice. Yeah.

• 2:10:28Dax Shepard?

  Any thoughts of moving back while you're there?

• 2:10:30Speaker 01

  No, I never have that.

• 2:10:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you never have that.

• 2:10:33Speaker 01

  I have. I have like, oh, like, I'm glad I touched down here a couple of times a year.

• 2:10:38Dax Shepard?

  Have you had the thought I had in Michigan, which is like, oh, my gosh, I could live in the super nice neighborhood now?

• 2:10:44Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:10:45Dax Shepard?

  Because that's what really fucked me up. That's what had me almost getting a house on a certain lake in Michigan.

• 2:10:50Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:10:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it was just like, oh, I used to drive by the house, you know? I mean, every time I went to West Bloomfield, anywhere, which is regular, is one stretch Pontiac Trail. And look at these mansions with these huge yards and they're on Long Lake, I think, Lower Straits, Upper Straits. And yeah, the notion that I could live there became very intoxicating.

• 2:11:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:12Dax Shepard?

  And like, I could almost not resist. I thought better of it at the end.

• 2:11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:18Dax Shepard?

  But I had found a house and I was flying there to get it. So I was just like,

• 2:11:21Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:11:22Dax Shepard?

  I can't believe I can live where the basketball players lived.

• 2:11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's interesting. I don't have that. I mean, I definitely drive around there and I think like.

• 2:11:33Dax Shepard?

  You know, one difference, I think, between you and I was kids, I coveted wealth.

• 2:11:37Speaker 01

  I, okay, I didn't covet we- wealth in the same way you did.

• 2:11:43Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:11:44Speaker 01

  But I still did have like aspirations to have a lot of money. Like, and we didn't, we lived in a nice house. That, well, that is the difference. We lived in a nice house. A, but a modest, nice house. Like it, um, my parents would get mad because they would say like, it's really nice, like.

• 2:12:04Dax Shepard?

  It is. I've seen it. It's a big, big house by American standards. It's like a 4,000 square foot house.

• 2:12:11Speaker 01

  Less than that, but

• 2:12:12Dax Shepard?

  It is?

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. But it's, yes, it is, it's a

• 2:12:16Dax Shepard?

  In like an upscale neighborhood?

• 2:12:17Speaker 01

  It's in a subdivision. Okay, this I was trying to teach Jess about subdivisions. He didn't understand them.

• 2:12:22Dax Shepard?

  Right, being from LA.

• 2:12:23Speaker 01

  Cause he was fighting with me about suburbs, cause I was like, you don't really understand suburbs.

• 2:12:28Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  And he was like-

• 2:12:29Dax Shepard?

  Talk about what sub you live in.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  Well, exactly.

• 2:12:31Dax Shepard?

  And you don't even say subdivision, you say sub. Did you say sub?

• 2:12:33Speaker 01

  Well, no, cause we didn't say, we said neighborhood.

• 2:12:36Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:12:37Speaker 01

  So what neighborhood do you live in? But I don't even say that to people who don't understand it, cause they don't even understand what that means.

• 2:12:43Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:12:44Speaker 01

  So I said, you know, cause sometimes I like to do suburban Fridays here, which is us going to a movie on Friday afternoon and then going to dinner at the Americana.

• 2:12:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:57Speaker 01

  It feels so suburban to me.

• 2:12:59Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:12:59Speaker 01

  And, um, and I was, we did that. We watched Devil's Pride and then we went to the Italian restaurant at the Americana. And you know, they bring out the bread. It's just all so suburban.

• 2:13:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  And I was feeling very nostalgic and I was talking about the suburbs and he was like, well, yeah, I mean, yeah, Burbank is a suburb. He grew up in Burbank.

• 2:13:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:17Speaker 01

  And I was like, no. And then he of course had to look up on ChatGPT where of course it says it is and, and sure.

• 2:13:24Dax Shepard?

  Burbank is a suburb of LA.

• 2:13:26Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:13:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:27Speaker 01

  Technically, it is a suburb.

• 2:13:29Dax Shepard?

  But a subdivision is a very specific thing.

• 2:13:32Speaker 01

  Well, that's what I said, but you don't have subdivisions, like a real, like a suburb to me.

• 2:13:38Dax Shepard?

  Someone who lives, grew up in New York, there are three or four streets you enter the subdivision on. And, and through those three or four streets, a web of streets are connected to it and it's its own little world.

• 2:13:48Speaker 01

  And it's house after house after-

• 2:13:50Dax Shepard?

  It's on a main road.

• 2:13:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:13:51Dax Shepard?

  And yeah, yeah. And that's how everything was built where I grew up in Michigan.

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:13:54Dax Shepard?

  In my elementary, you'd go, what sub do you live in? And it was either Heritage Farms, Axford Acres, LaSalle Gardens.

• 2:14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:02Dax Shepard?

  There were only four options.

• 2:14:03Speaker 01

  Okay, so for us, yeah, what neighborhood do you live in?

• 2:14:06Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:14:06Speaker 01

  It's a huge neighborhood, like eight hundred houses.

• 2:14:09Dax Shepard?

  Houses.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:14:10Dax Shepard?

  Big development.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  So it was really exciting for Halloween. You wanted to go in Riverbrook, you know?

• 2:14:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really exciting.

• 2:14:15Dax Shepard?

  It was Riverbrook the nicest sub in?

• 2:14:17Speaker 01

  No, so that's what I'm saying.

• 2:14:18Dax Shepard?

  Okay, there was a nicer sub.

• 2:14:19Speaker 01

  So many.

• 2:14:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:14:21Speaker 01

  So many. So, um, there were St. Ives. That was really, really fancy.

• 2:14:28Dax Shepard?

  It's also funny.

• 2:14:30Speaker 01

  It is so funny. So that's, and like I had friends who lived in these, you know, and, um, sugar.

• 2:14:36Dax Shepard?

  Sugar tits?

• 2:14:39Speaker 01

  I can't believe I'm forgetting this is that's just because coffee. But um, anyway, yes, there were some areas. It's like, oh, my God, if you live there, like you've really made it.

• 2:14:49Dax Shepard?

  Can I tell you the coveted wealth part?

• 2:14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:51Dax Shepard?

  So on the weekends, very, very regular activity for us, maybe even every other weekend. We would leave our shitty welfare apartment and we would get mom's pinto and we would drive to Bloomfield Hills.

• 2:15:07Speaker 01

  That was a neighborhood?

• 2:15:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it was, you know, it's 25 miles away, not a subdivision. It is a suburb. It's an area.

• 2:15:14Speaker 01

  Okay, got it.

• 2:15:15Dax Shepard?

  And we would pull up to the end of driveways and stare at the house. And my mom would say, these people went to college. Like, if you want to live here, these people went to college. And she'd drive to another nice house. This person's probably a doctor or they're a lawyer, you know, like, if you like that.

• 2:15:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:15:32Dax Shepard?

  This is how you get it. And we did that all the time.

• 2:15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:35Dax Shepard?

  I do think that compounded my obsession with like wealth in like, oh, my God, that's so out of reach. And we want that thing. So yeah, the lake with the basketball players' houses, I was very primed.

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  That used to be a thing. Like, yeah, when we would go on vacations, we'd just drive around and look at houses.

• 2:15:54Dax Shepard?

  It's so fun. I love it. I still love it.

• 2:15:57Speaker 01

  It's weird now that I'm thinking about that. Like, I would never go on a vacation and do that. But we did it all the time. Anytime we went somewhere in a car, it was, yeah, we would go to neighborhoods and drive around and look at houses.

• 2:16:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:09Speaker 01

  Strange.

• 2:16:09Dax Shepard?

  See how the other folks live.

• 2:16:11Speaker 01

  I guess, but like, I don't know. It's so funny. It's all so funny.

• 2:16:16Dax Shepard?

  We're watching Zillow Gone Wild. We're now addicted to it. We have a guest coming up.

• 2:16:21Speaker 01

  We do.

• 2:16:21Dax Shepard?

  Don't have to deduce how, who that would be.

• 2:16:24Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:16:25Dax Shepard?

  But if you ever want to see Zillow Gone Wild, it's from the Instagram account Zillow Gone Wild. So it's these crazy listings on Zillow.

• 2:16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:31Dax Shepard?

  And the show goes and visits these houses. And there was the cutest Indian couple last night.

• 2:16:37Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:16:38Dax Shepard?

  In Orlando, Florida.

• 2:16:40Speaker 01

  Oh, a lot of them there.

• 2:16:41Dax Shepard?

  And they lived in a castle.

• 2:16:42Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:16:43Dax Shepard?

  It looked like Excalibur Hotel in Vegas.

• 2:16:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:46Dax Shepard?

  And inside were like swords and all this stuff. And they were.

• 2:16:51Speaker 01

  Indian stuff in there? There or like

• 2:16:53Dax Shepard?

  No, it was all like knights and stuff.

• 2:16:54Speaker 01

  Okay, interesting.

• 2:16:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and it's just it's the whole the whole tableau is so cute because they're from India, right? And the dad is like, clearly, he's been successful here.

• 2:17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:04Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, look at this. This guy lives in a castle in America.

• 2:17:08Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:17:08Dax Shepard?

  So happy like you would not want to live in this castle.

• 2:17:12Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:17:12Dax Shepard?

  I wanted, but there was something so sweet and

• 2:17:15Speaker 01

  Because it's the idea of America.

• 2:17:17Dax Shepard?

  Guys in America, like five acres in a castle.

• 2:17:20Speaker 01

  In Camelot.

• 2:17:21Dax Shepard?

  Yes. And then they show the children, I guess the children talked them into buying the house. And the child, it was on eBay, which I didn't even know they sold homes on eBay. Yeah, it was just really cute because the mom did all the talking. A lot of it was very followed a lot of my stereotypes.

• 2:17:40Dax Shepard?

  But in the adorable way, the things I love about like she handled all the talking. He just kind of sat there.

• 2:17:45Speaker 01

  He nodded.

• 2:17:46Dax Shepard?

  And then he got to show his sword, you know, like when it was time to do like this sort of stuff. And then the key thing was eventually we saw the kids.

• 2:17:55Speaker 01

  How old are they?

• 2:17:56Dax Shepard?

  In their twenties.

• 2:17:57Speaker 01

  Okay, taking advantage of their parents.

• 2:17:59Dax Shepard?

  And the son had like a fucking long ponytail, fucking tattoos everywhere. And I was like, these second generation.

• 2:18:11Speaker 01

  It's so sad, actually.

• 2:18:13Dax Shepard?

  You talking about your brother just made me think of the whole, the whole scenario. And I was like, oh yeah, man. You got like, if you're, if you're emigrating here from India, like you have a lot coming your way. There's so many challenges for you. There's racism. There's this and that. You got to find your footing. And then the reward is you'll give your, your kids this

• 2:18:34Dax Shepard?

  everything and they will likely go berserk American style.

• 2:18:37Speaker 01

  Well, it's all connected. It's you're gonna go berserk America tell because you have to be American.

• 2:18:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:44Speaker 01

  You have to very quickly assimilate into this culture and be whatever it needs you to be. And you don't really know how.

• 2:18:50Dax Shepard?

  It's just a hard row. They, they, they, they travel and I want to honor them. It's like, what an experience, you know, you, you, you, you go through hell and back.

• 2:18:58Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:18:59Dax Shepard?

  To, to make it here and to provide this opportunity. And then they're like, I think, Dad, I'm gonna blow joints and get

• 2:19:08Speaker 01

  That's why I'm such a good daughter.

• 2:19:10Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes. Well, you turned out to be.

• 2:19:14Speaker 01

  I'm always been a good daughter. Oh, you mean, you mean because I did do a crazy thing.

• 2:19:19Dax Shepard?

  You did a crazy thing and you could be, it worked out.

• 2:19:22Speaker 01

  It worked out for my brother too.

• 2:19:24Dax Shepard?

  You could have been moving back at 36 years old and you could have been in this doc about Zillow.

• 2:19:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:19:29Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 2:19:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:19:29Dax Shepard?

  No, don't be silly.

• 2:19:30Speaker 01

  That's not in, that was not in my cards. Maybe I wouldn't have had all this, but I would have figured out something.

• 2:19:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Um, we have much different assessments of ourselves. Had this not worked out for me, I would be penniless.

• 2:19:44Speaker 01

  That's so crazy that you think that.

• 2:19:46Dax Shepard?

  I know so. I was just talking about it with Kristen when we were talking about somebody. And it was like, just get a fucking job, right? Like just get a job. You didn't get the management position. Like at some point, get a job.

• 2:19:59Speaker 01

  Just do it. Yeah.

• 2:20:00Dax Shepard?

  And I was, I was like enjoying that, being a little judgmental. And then I was like, you know, hon, if I'm being dead honest, like I could not, I couldn't have a job. I could be an Uber driver. Um, I could be at 7-Eleven if there's no manager, but I could not, at this point, have a 30 year old boss who I thought was dumb and was making me do stupid things. I couldn't do it. I'd rather be penniless. I just don't have it in me.

• 2:20:28Speaker 01

  What if you have a family? You can't just choose to be penniless. You have to support your family.

• 2:20:33Dax Shepard?

  If I have a family, well, luckily there are, I would be an Uber driver. I would be something where I could be an independent contractor. What I'm saying, I really have always been terrible at.

• 2:20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:43Dax Shepard?

  And I'm admitting it. I've not been great when I have idiot bosses and most people have idiot bosses. I'm not talking about good bosses, but your odds of getting a good boss are low.

• 2:20:54Speaker 01

  Even if you have a good boss, you're not going to see eye to eye on everything at all and you're not going to be quiet about that.

• 2:21:02Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:21:02Speaker 01

  But listen, can you? Work on it?

• 2:21:06Dax Shepard?

  No, no, no, no, I know who I am. I'm 51.

• 2:21:09Speaker 01

  No, now, I don't mean now, I mean like if this was, well, it would have happened much earlier. It would have happened earlier in life. You, I think, we can't tell people they can't change these behaviors because like, you can, you can't.

• 2:21:24Dax Shepard?

  I'm telling those people, you probably gotta be an Uber driver. You need to be, you need to be something where you don't have a boss.

• 2:21:28Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, sure, you can be something where you don't have a boss, or you can work on yourself and, and decide like, okay, this boss is fucking annoying. Like, I hate him and I hate that he's telling me what to do. And guess what? I need a job and I need to support my family and I can go home and forget about this part. Like, you can.

• 2:21:48Dax Shepard?

  You're 100% right. That's how people should be. I completely agree with you.

• 2:21:51Speaker 01

  People can.

• 2:21:51Dax Shepard?

  That's how people should be.

• 2:21:53Speaker 01

  And they can be.

• 2:21:54Dax Shepard?

  I am not that way.

• 2:21:56Speaker 01

  I disagree. You, you don't give yourself enough credit for change. You've changed a lot. And it's, again, as you say, like, it's when push comes to shove, but that's what would, this would require. You would be.

• 2:22:09Dax Shepard?

  I'm just telling on myself. You know, I've got some bad characteristics.

• 2:22:12Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:22:13Dax Shepard?

  This is one of them. I don't do well with authoritarian presences.

• 2:22:17Speaker 01

  But I think, you don't. But I think you, you could, in, in a specific cir-, given your life had gone a different way.

• 2:22:28Dax Shepard?

  That's why I couldn't direct commercials. I did a few. I got through them.

• 2:22:33Speaker 01

  I know. You, yeah, yeah.

• 2:22:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you were in one.

• 2:22:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:22:36Dax Shepard?

  And I was fine that day. I didn't piss off the client.

• 2:22:39Speaker 01

  You were great.

• 2:22:39Dax Shepard?

  But I didn't like it so much that I'm like, I would rather not direct.

• 2:22:43Speaker 01

  I know, but you were already rich. So this is my point. If you, if you weren't.

• 2:22:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:49Speaker 01

  And you needed the job. You didn't need those jobs.

• 2:22:55Dax Shepard?

  So I was broke when I worked for CPK.

• 2:22:58Speaker 01

  I know, but.

• 2:22:59Dax Shepard?

  And I couldn't do it. I couldn't have him tell me I got a six.

• 2:23:03Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:23:03Dax Shepard?

  Or a seven on my punctuality when I had been early every day. I couldn't resist.

• 2:23:10Dax Shepard?

  I just couldn't, I couldn't handle the injustice.

• 2:23:13Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:23:14Dax Shepard?

  And I lost that job or I quit it.

• 2:23:16Speaker 01

  That's okay, though. You lost a job. To me, that's okay. He, that was weird. He told you.

• 2:23:22Dax Shepard?

  I bet corporate told him to do that.

• 2:23:24Speaker 01

  Yes, of course. Not his fault necessarily, but whatever. You quit because you're like, I can't work for this corporation that is, is gaslighting me.

• 2:23:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, lying to me.

• 2:23:34Speaker 01

  And I won't do it. So I'm quitting. That's fine. I in fact, think in some ways that's noble.

• 2:23:41Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:23:41Speaker 01

  That doesn't mean that you couldn't have gone to a different job.

• 2:23:45Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 2:23:46Speaker 01

  And worked for someone.

• 2:23:49Dax Shepard?

  I was so lucky that I had a job for 14 years.

• 2:23:53Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:23:54Dax Shepard?

  But my bosses were my mom and my brother.

• 2:23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. But and sometimes that's the worst. That can be.

• 2:24:00Dax Shepard?

  Cause we already knew how to deal with each other. You're right. A lot of family businesses, it does, that, that part gets tricky. It worked great for us because my mom knew.

• 2:24:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:12Dax Shepard?

  The more I stay out of his business and the more responsibility I give him, the better he'll be.

• 2:24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:17Dax Shepard?

  And so she just stayed the fuck out of the way. And almost every year I got more and more responsibilities where I was, oh.

• 2:24:24Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, the breast, the colostrum has arrived.

• 2:24:27Dax Shepard?

  Show an ID? They did.

• 2:24:29Speaker 01

  Well, if you take a sip and you taste alcohol, let me know.

• 2:24:32Dax Shepard?

  Okay. You'll know if there's alcohol in it. How will you know if there's alcohol in it?

• 2:24:36Speaker 01

  Cause you'll drink the whole thing in one sip.

• 2:24:38Dax Shepard?

  I'll ask Rob if he can run up and get a pack of Camel Lights.

• 2:24:41Speaker 01

  Oh, you mean after you're done with it?

• 2:24:43Dax Shepard?

  And then I'll, and then I'll figure out where to get cocaine.

• 2:24:45Speaker 01

  I know. I know. If you did, if there was alcohol and you drank it and you relapsed and then you did cocaine and like, um, we could sue Aramone.

• 2:24:57Dax Shepard?

  I don't think.

• 2:24:58Speaker 01

  And that would, oh, a hundred percent we would.

• 2:25:01Dax Shepard?

  After the point I just made, I would never.

• 2:25:03Speaker 01

  Well, I'm cutting that obviously so that we can sue. And then, um, that will be so exciting.

• 2:25:11Speaker 01

  Talk about buying a house in Bloomington Hills or whatever with the sewage money.

• 2:25:16Dax Shepard?

  Bloomfield Hills.

• 2:25:17Speaker 01

  Bloomfield. Sugarloaf. My God, that was gonna kill me. Sugarloaf had really big houses. How's the colostrum?

• 2:25:25Dax Shepard?

  This thing is fucking delicious.

• 2:25:27Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 2:25:27Dax Shepard?

  I'm willing to show my ID to get it.

• 2:25:29Speaker 01

  Oh, see? Look at that.

• 2:25:32Dax Shepard?

  I don't know if that's true, but, okay, wanna do some facts?

• 2:25:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do some facts. So this is like all connected, cuz this is for Brandy Carlisle.

• 2:25:41Dax Shepard?

  And she grew up modestly and she could now buy a house.

• 2:25:43Speaker 01

  She said.

• 2:25:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and she could definitely buy a house on Upper Straits, Middle Straits, or Lower Straits.

• 2:25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:50Dax Shepard?

  Or Long Lake. Those are the big boys. I really liked her.

• 2:25:54Speaker 01

  I know, she was fantastic.

• 2:25:55Dax Shepard?

  Really, really, really liked her.

• 2:25:57Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:25:57Dax Shepard?

  What I liked the most, I was talking to Phineas about her. What I love is how unapologetically ambitious she is. And she doesn't pretend she's not. And I love that. And I, I think it's weirdly a good message to put out there because I think a lot of people think one need only be a genius artist. And that's not. You gotta call all the clubs and get on open mic night and like, you know, there's just a ton of ambition.

• 2:26:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:26:25Dax Shepard?

  In the mix, too.

• 2:26:26Speaker 01

  I agree, yeah. Okay, our civil partnerships. Okay, I was looking up the civil partnership and, and gay marriage timeline in England. Okay, so same-sex marriage in England and Wales became legal on March 13th, 2014.

• 2:26:45Speaker 01

  Civil partnerships were 2005.

• 2:26:49Speaker 01

  And I looked up, cuz she said those had to be like very secular. And that's correct. They must remain legally secular, meaning the registration process cannot include religious words, music, or hymns.

• 2:27:02Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. Will they send a monitor there to make sure that didn't happen in your ceremony?

• 2:27:07Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:27:07Dax Shepard?

  It's just the

• 2:27:08Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 2:27:08Dax Shepard?

  Honor Agreement or whatever they call it.

• 2:27:10Speaker 01

  Honor System, maybe. I don't know, but yeah. Oh, was Ross Kunkel, the drummer, did he play on Tapestry, the album Tapestry?

• 2:27:21Speaker 01

  Carol King. Yes.

• 2:27:23Dax Shepard?

  He did.

• 2:27:23Speaker 01

  He did do that. He did do that.

• 2:27:26Dax Shepard?

  Does that?

• 2:27:26Speaker 01

  He did it and he does it. Oh, you said you like invented a reality or like a show or something where you don't know the person's age, but you hear their voice and because she was on the phone with her wife, her now wife and thought she was a 70 year old lady.

• 2:27:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:46Speaker 01

  That is a current, that's currently a reality show.

• 2:27:48Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it is?

• 2:27:49Speaker 01

  Uh huh. It's called Age of Attraction. It's on Netflix.

• 2:27:52Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 2:27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And do you want to hear the trailer?

• 2:27:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because we might have to watch this with the kids when Zillow runs out.

• 2:28:00Speaker 06

  I have dated guys who are my age because it was the right thing to do. And it didn't work out, obviously.

• 2:28:10Speaker 06

  Here, you'll be dating and even committing without ever knowing how old your partner is.

• 2:28:15Dax Shepard?

  Are you ready?

• 2:28:16Speaker 06

  Yeah. I don't know if these guys are my grandpa's age.

• 2:28:20Speaker 05

  But you don't know who the Spice Girls are? I couldn't be one. Best three minute date I've ever had.

• 2:28:25Dax Shepard?

  I'm not gonna lie, I like the mom part. You have mommy issues? If you're not as hot as my mom, I'm not gonna marry you. Huh.

• 2:28:33Speaker 06

  If you feel as if you've found that special connection, all that's left is revealing

• 2:28:39Speaker 06

  your age. I am.

• 2:28:42Dax Shepard?

  Got your seatbelt on?

• 2:28:45Dax Shepard?

  I didn't even know there were 60 year olds here.

• 2:28:48Dax Shepard?

  Well, okay, I was gonna say my only issue with this, the show, as I'm seeing it is they get to see each other. So it's like, but.

• 2:28:55Speaker 06

  Or leave this experience the same way you entered it alone.

• 2:29:02Speaker 06

  I'm definitely worried. What would my family think? Children? Yeah.

• 2:29:06Dax Shepard?

  And you hated babysitting? All right, we got it. Yeah, I guess that shows really more about how well can you hide your age? Because we're seeing the people.

• 2:29:15Speaker 01

  We are seeing them, but maybe.

• 2:29:17Dax Shepard?

  So there's a lot of shockers. Like clearly what's going to be the shocker is a lot of people are much older than they look. And a lot of people are much younger than they look.

• 2:29:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, but maybe, yes, but I think it is saying like, that is what they look, that these are the people. So, so who cares what their age is?

• 2:29:33Dax Shepard?

  It's just a number, Monica.

• 2:29:34Speaker 01

  It's just a number.

• 2:29:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:37Speaker 01

  That's what, that's what they're trying to do.

• 2:29:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:41Speaker 01

  Anyway, people are watching that.

• 2:29:42Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna watch that.

• 2:29:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:29:44Dax Shepard?

  I bet the kids would like that.

• 2:29:45Speaker 01

  Report back. And that's it.

• 2:29:47Dax Shepard?

  Really not a lot of facts. Well, I really enjoyed her immensely. Me too. Yeah, I really like her. I love her. I love her. All right. Love you.