Childcare SPECIAL: Your questions & problems put to Sec of State for Education Bridget Phillipson

Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson joins Martin Lewis to answers your questions about the cost of childcare. They cover topics such as are there enough funds for 30hrs funded childcare? Why 800,000 miss out on Tax Free Childcare? Child Benefit cliff-edge problems & more.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:47Speaker 02

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• 1:50Martin Lewis?

  Hello, I'm Martin Lewis and this is the cunningly named The Martin Lewis Podcast. I do wonder what that's going to be about. As usual, much of it comes from my BBC Radio 5 Live show with Adrian Charles. And today it's a special. We were joined by the Secretary of State for Education to talk childcare funding and support. We had over a thousand questions in and I've tried to put all the key topics to Brigitte Phillipson. So that means in today's pod, exactly what childcare help is available and for who.

• 2:21Martin Lewis?

  How does the tax-free childcare scheme work? Spoiler, it's not about tax and it's not tax-free. But it can give you up to two grand a year extra to pay for childcare, though 800,000 eligible parents are still missing out. Why is eligibility for child benefit still based on a cliff edge? On one earner's income? It's unfair for single-parent families. Is anything ever going to change? Then we get to the big subject. Funded childcare, often wrongly referred to as free childcare, will be expanded to 30 hours a week for children from nine months old to five years old from September, as long as the parents are both working. But what counts as a working parent? Is there enough funding?

• 3:05Martin Lewis?

  And can nurseries cope? We'll hear from a nursery provider as we do that one. When is a nine-month-old not a nine-month-old? When they really have to be a year old to get help is the rather unfunny answer. And so much more, including questions about special educational needs and help for older children. The best thing is just listen to it. So play the theme tune.

• 3:44Speaker 04

  We're joined by Bridget Phillipson, the Education Secretary, as Martin said. Thanks very much for coming on.

• 3:50Speaker 05

  Good to be with you, sir.

• 3:51Speaker 04

  You know, I get intimidated spending a whole hour in a studio with Martin Lewis. So for you to come in as well, that's, uh, that's...

• 3:57Martin Lewis?

  Are you saying that makes it more intimidating for you to have two of us here? Or it's intimidating for Bridget to be here with us?

• 4:03Speaker 04

  I think it's less intimidating for me because I've got some support from Bridget dealing with you.

• 4:08Martin Lewis?

  Okay, fine. It's not often you're not casting the role of the difficult one, I suspect.

• 4:13Speaker 05

  Well, I think a whole hour talking about childcare and early education is probably a fantastic hour for me because it is the thing I care about the most.

• 4:21Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 4:22Speaker 05

  So I'm looking forward to it.

• 4:22Speaker 04

  Famous last words.

• 4:24Martin Lewis?

  But I just, and we're not going to go into this, but I do think it's very interesting because... I always remember an anecdotal story from a professor of economics who I knew way back when, and we were talking about student finance. And the truth is, student finance is an issue, and it's also within your purview. But when you go to kids from the poorest backgrounds, those who get good A-level grades, they go on to university, to almost exactly the same percent as those from wealthier backgrounds. I mean, I'm talking really good A-level grades. The problem is so few people from poorer backgrounds get good A-level grades in the first place because the economic inequality. I can't remember if I've got this right. So

• 5:05Martin Lewis?

  this is, see this as a sort of scale of magnitude statistic as opposed to a general statistic. It was something like if you took the bottom 10% of poorest compared to the top 10% of richest people, and you took the highest achieving children from the bottom 10% and compared them to the lowest achieving with normal mental capacity from the top 10%, by the age of 10, the intellectual ability was outweighed by the economic and educational advantages that they've had, so that the lowest achieving children from the richest group were outperforming the highest achieving children from the poorest group. So early years is absolutely crucial for that, isn't it?

• 5:39Speaker 05

  Absolutely, and that's why it's my number one priority as Education Secretary. What we're saying as a government as well is that if you reach a good level of development at the end of reception, so after your first year in school, you're far more likely to go on to get good GCSEs. And then if you get those GCSEs, you're far more likely to go on to have a good career, a good life. So much is determined in those first five years of a child's life.

• 6:00Martin Lewis?

  Or even prenatal sometimes.

• 6:01Speaker 05

  Absolutely, and support for parents and for mothers in particular is absolutely crucial. But those first early years determine a lot about what can happen in a child's life. And that's why it is exciting to be talking to you about that this afternoon because it's my priority. I want more support available for parents and for families. It's good for them, helps them manage money, but actually it really helps children and their development as well.

• 6:24Martin Lewis?

  So we'll be talking early years, we'll also be talking some questions childcare for older children as well.

• 6:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, and before we get on to the funded childcare, Roshin has asked why is

• 6:34Martin Lewis?

  Would you mind if I summarize first?

• 6:37Speaker 04

  Yes, go on.

• 6:38Martin Lewis?

  Because I think it would be useful for everybody listening if I just run through briefly the childcare support that is available. Now, I need to say, we're talking England today because this is a devolved subject. You have, you have colleagues or counterparts in Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and the systems are different there. So it's too complicated to do every single system and it's not in the Secretary of State's purview, so we're going to focus on England today. So here's how it works. Currently, if you have a child nine months to 23 months old and you are a working parent, I will come on to the definition of that in a moment, there is 15 hours of funded childcare available from September, that will go to 30 hours. For two-year-olds, again, working parents, 15 hours from September, working parents,

• 7:22Martin Lewis?

  30 hours, but there's also 15 hours available for some if the child has, gets disability allowance or has education and healthcare plans, even if you're not a working parent. And some parents who aren't working on benefits may get 15 hours as well, but that won't go up to 30 hours. It's only the working parents it goes up to 30 hours. For three to four-year-olds, everyone currently gets 15 hours of funded childcare. Working parents are eligible for 30 hours and that will not be changing. So what is a working parent? And this is really important because this is what matters the whole way through. It is defined as somebody who earns on average over a three-month period the equivalent of 16 hours of national minimum wage. Now, that gets slightly complex because what national minimum wage is depends on

• 8:07Martin Lewis?

  your age because it's age-related. But if we go very simple, for somebody aged over 22, national minimum wage, 16 hours a week over a month is around 850 quid a month. So that's a working parent and it needs to be both parents if you're in a couple. And then it is capped. If either parent earns over £100,000, it's called adjusted net income, so pension contributions are taken out, but just go with roughly £100,000, you aren't entitled to this. So that funded childcare, that 30 hours for a working parent, depends on those criteria. And those criteria are exactly the same for tax-free childcare. And tax-free childcare is where you can put money into an account held at gov.uk.

• 8:52Martin Lewis?

  And for every 80p you put in, the state adds 20p on top, up to a maximum free money of £500 coming from the state per quarter, double for disabilities. And this is tax-free childcare for children under the age of 11. Interestingly, the predecessor system, childcare vouchers, didn't require you to be a working parent and was up to the age of 16. So this one probably isn't as flexible as that, but that was dependent on the employer. And then there's the one that we've had very few questions on, which is for working people on lower incomes, universal credit. If you're on universal credit, up to 85% of your childcare costs can be covered, up to around £1,000 a month for one child and £1,800 a month for two plus children. So there's lots of information in there, but it boils down to three things.

• 9:37Martin Lewis?

  Right, first of all, do you get funded childcare? If you don't get funded childcare and you're paying for it, if you're entitled to universal credit, you want the universal credit help. If you're not entitled to universal credit, are you entitled to the tax-free childcare account that gives you basically a top-up and gives you extra money towards what you're already paying for childcare?

• 9:54Speaker 04

  That brings us to Rashin's question. He said, why is that tax-free childcare capped at £2,000? Even with 30 hours, free, inverted commas, hours, our bill is £1,500 a month for one three-year-old child.

• 10:06Speaker 05

  Well, obviously, the childcare expansion will mean that parents receive more in terms of support, and we estimate that parents will save £7,500 per child once the full rollout takes place by September. And I would just want to stress, I appreciate there are some complexities within the system, we might come back to that, but the childcare choices website that's there, that's where you can put in all of your details, all of the information, is a good way for parents to check. And following on from what Martin's just said about the options that are available, it's a really easy-to-use website, parents can put all of their details in and see what they're entitled to. Now, tax-free childcare is a legacy scheme that we inherited as a government. I'm not going to make this about the politics, but this was something that we inherited as a government.

• 10:50Speaker 05

  I think what Martin has just demonstrated with the list of everything that's there is that there is complexity. I do believe there is a need to make the system simpler for parents. We will do that over time. I'm committed to doing that. But at the moment, we've been really focused on getting the rollout in September where parents can get, working parents can get that up to 30 hours funded childcare, which will make an enormous difference, but is a really big undertaking in terms of getting the staff in place and the places there.

• 11:15Martin Lewis?

  What Rosine's saying is, and there's a lot of, I think there's good practice behind this because tax-free childcare, I'm going to come on to the name in a moment, you know I've talked to you about this in the past, tax-free childcare was launched in April 2017 and there are no changes to the amount of money you can get since then. At the same time, childcare costs have gone up 20%. So in real terms, tax-free childcare has been cut by, I'm not going to do the reciprocal, but roughly 20% in that time. Are there any plans to increase the amount of free cash available on, under the tax-free childcare scheme?

• 11:48Speaker 05

  Well, we don't have any plans to put any, make any changes immediately around tax-free childcare. We are putting an extra £2 billion overall into childcare, which takes us to £8 billion by September with the full rollout of the 30 funded hours for working parents. But I think there is a big question about how we simplify the system. We talked about universal credit, tax-free childcare, the different funded offers. It's not as easy to navigate for parents as it should be. It's a system that has had bits added on to it at different times. I think there is a need to bring it all together. We will do that and I'll set out plans later this year around an early year strategy because there are big questions as well around how we support people to work in early years. And I know providers have concerns about that too. But a lot of our focus as a government

• 12:30Speaker 05

  has been on making a success of those 30 hours that come on board in September.

• 12:34Martin Lewis?

  So let's just go on to, now you know I have a problem with tax-free childcare because the whole way this podcast came about is we had a meeting to talk about this and some other issues in student finance and so such. And I asked if you were passionate about this, I said, come on to the podcast and talk about it, which is, is what we're doing now. Eight hundred thousand eligible families do not claim tax-free childcare, even though this is basically free money, I mean, it's not free money, it's being paid for by the state or the taxpayer, or however you want to frame that, free money for them as an individual to help with childcare. Now, one of my big start points to the problem with it, it's called tax-free childcare, but Adrian, it's not about tax and it's not tax-free. And it's called tax-free childcare, which was a political point made by the government who introduced it to try and say it was the equivalent of you paying it from your pre-tax income.

• 13:18Martin Lewis?

  But that's just baloney and boulder dash and any other B words you want to think of, right? So what tax-free childcare is, is basically an account where you save for childcare and then you get a bonus of 20p for every 80p you've added from the state that goes towards your childcare too and can be paid for whatever is relevant childcare who accepts it. And it's absolutely worth doing for anyone who qualifies, who doesn't get universal credit. If you get universal credit, you can't have one or the other and universal credit is better if you're paying for childcare. So my big ask to you is, I think if we renamed it, I know it sounds very simple. If we named it the Working Family Childcare Top-Up, because it's for working families only, it's for childcare and it tops up what you pay.

• 14:03Martin Lewis?

  That implicitly gives people a better understanding and we've done a lot of research that shows if people understood it better, they would claim it more. And is that something you're warm to, changing the name? Because the name's ridiculous.

• 14:13Speaker 05

  Look, if it helps more people take up what they're entitled to, what's available, I'll certainly take that away.

• 14:18Speaker 04

  But there's always this suspicion that in the end, you're not going to cry yourself to sleep, possibly, or maybe somebody at the Treasury won't cry themselves to sleep, with people not taking up this offer, with 800,000 people who could have it, not having it.

• 14:32Speaker 05

  Well, I think what the Treasury acknowledged and the reason we're putting so much money into childcare is that we want to give parents choices around how they work. And what we've seen through the recent expansion of childcare is that parents have been able to work the hours that suit them, in many cases, work more hours. If they're doing that, they're also contributing more, they're paying tax. So it's of economic benefit if people are able to.

• 14:52Speaker 04

  So why do you think they're not taking up? There's so many, 800,000, go on.

• 14:57Speaker 05

  So speaking from personal experience, my kids are a bit older now, but mine were younger when tax-free childcare came in. So I went on to the website, had a look at what was available. I was also able at that point to receive childcare vouchers. I looked at the two and I thought, this is all a bit complicated. Stuck with what I had. I think sadly quite a few parents have had a similar experience where they've found the process too complicated, or I think for good reason, as you've just described, Martin, they think, well, hang on, what does that mean? Is this for me?

• 15:24Martin Lewis?

  And childcare vouchers are still actually possible now, you just can't sign up to a new scheme. So, but I, look, I mean, Adrian, I'd normally agree with your skepticism. I think the one thing I would point out, and it was subtly within there, if you look at all, sort of, all parties' productivity plans, childcare is important because getting people to work increases productivity of the nation. So this is probably one of the areas, I mean, I might have my views on that, and winter fuel payment, I might agree with you, I'm not going to ask that of you, that's not your area, but I'm not sure on this particular one, that that is as relevant, because getting people in work is a huge productivity gap that we have.

• 15:56Speaker 05

  It adds a lot to economic growth as well. I mean, you know, the Office of Budget Responsibility always look at government policy and the impact that has on growth. And actually investing in support for parents around childcare is a big help because it does allow more people to work, allows them to work more hours. For me, the key point here is about choice. What I'm saying to parents is that, you know, the government's putting more support in place as of September, they can, parents can apply for those codes now, they can see what they're entitled to claim through the childcare choices website, but it's not for everybody. Parents don't have to take up the offer that's available. Some parents prefer not to, but just go and have a look, see what's out there and make choices that work for you, work for your family.

• 16:35Martin Lewis?

  Now, three more questions on tax-free childcare before we move on to the funded childcare hours. And note for everybody, we are calling them funded hours, not free hours. That's a very important point. I know people get very vexed by that. They are funded by the state and to a certain level. So let's carry on with tax-free childcare. George, why can two parents earn £99,999 each and get full funding, but if one earns £100,000 and the other £20,000, he actually put naught, which isn't factually correct, I changed that, and the other £20,000, all funding is removed? Andy, why has the reform of the child benefit high tax charge been parked?

• 17:12Martin Lewis?

  Well, that was one I was involved in campaigning on. Mike, why is there a cliff edge salary cut off for support and why doesn't this change with inflation? So the whole point of this is the fact that if the highest earner earns over a hundred grand, you don't get any of this support. Whereas you could have your neighbours next door where they both earn ninety nine thousand pounds and they would get the full package. The same is true on child benefit. If you earn, starting at sixty thousand up to eighty thousand pounds, the highest earner, you get it removed. Once you earn over eighty thousand, it goes totally. Now, the last chancellor, after I petitioned him on this, agreed to investigate changing this, that's Jeremy Hunt, the Conservative Chancellor, changing this so it would be a household system to make it fairer. Because currently, the system

• 17:54Martin Lewis?

  for both childcare and child benefit penalises single families, single earner families and dominant earner families. Why did your chancellor, Rachel Reeves, decided to can doing the change that would have made the system fairer?

• 18:11Speaker 05

  So I agree that you're right, that there are anomalies within the system. And I think where it comes to some areas of policy are on the basis of household income rather than individual income. My understanding as to the reason that decision was taken by the chancellor is just because we've had to make some really tough economic calls about prioritisation, what we can and can't support, where we put the extra, any extra money that we're seeking to invest. And I think on the point about the thresholds around the hundred thousand mark, I mean, look, in pure policy terms, it's obviously an anomaly.

• 18:43Martin Lewis?

  And an unfairness.

• 18:44Speaker 05

  But if you were to say to me, where would I rather invest more funding, it would be for lower, for middle earners. But I, I, and this is a system, I'm not going to be too political about it. This, this is a system we inherited.

• 18:56Martin Lewis?

  But you also inherited the last chancellor was going to set up to change it. And the, where I disagree with the chancellor on this, as in Rachel Reeves on this, is her, she said we can't change it because it will cost more. No one was saying that we should be putting more money into this. What we're saying is you have to reassess the boundaries based on household income, so that you're only spending the same amount, but you don't have, I mean, for a Labour government, this is a system that penalises single parent families. Single earner families and dominant earner families, that is unjust.

• 19:27Speaker 05

  So what I can say is, I'll take this away and I will speak to the Chancellor about it. I would just add that it was all very good and well Jeremy Hunt committing to looking at this pretty late in the day, close to the end of the last government. It was the Conservative government that introduced those changes around child benefit way back in 2010.

• 19:43Martin Lewis?

  True, but he also did increase at the same time the threshold from 50,000 to 60,000 to 60,000 to 80,000, which did mitigate some of the damage, which is why we don't get quite as many issues about child benefit as we used to. But still, a lot of people are angry about the way it works because it's a natural injustice. We should probably move on to the big one though, Adrian.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  Okay, yes. Shall we hear from Rebecca in Leeds who's called in? How are you Rebecca?

• 20:08Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm fine, thank you Adrian, how are you?

• 20:10Speaker 04

  Yes, good, thank you. So, well Martin and I will let you get on with it. You can speak to our Education Secretary, Bridget Phillips, and go on, fire away, what's your point?

• 20:21Speaker 06

  Hi, thank you. So, the question I wanted to ask was, obviously there are certain people in certain circumstances, such as myself, where we can't rely on grandparents, they're in bad health. My mother's unfortunately passed away, I have another parent who's not reliable. And we're on a very good wage, but we're still struggling to cover costs. I mean, I've worked out that for two children, four days per week, by the end I will have paid 80,000 pounds up to the age of four. And that's for four days a week, like a thousand pounds a month for four days.

• 21:01Speaker 06

  And I just wondered why childcare costs are so crippling for people who are trying to work. I understand that staff need to be paid well and they have a responsible job, but the costs are a second mortgage and they're pushing parents, mainly mothers, out of work. The thirty hours funded is term time only, so it has to be stretched across the year and doesn't cover consumables. And the way that it just gets dropped on nurseries too, you know, as a, as a, oh, we're, we're gonna fund now for more children younger. But they're suddenly having to provide funding for children that are younger when the amount provided doesn't cover costs and not enough staff, pushing the costs again back on to

• 21:42Speaker 06

  the parent and even the parents that have older children that are not, you know, benefiting from this. And again, I'm not saying that parents shouldn't pay, but the offer should obviously be transparent because it's not thirty hours funded. It's thirty hours term time and it's still very expensive. And that's twelve thousand pounds a month for four, sorry, twelve thousand pounds a year for four days a week. And bearing in mind, you know, we're on a very good wage and still struggling with that, there's the cost of living and I just worry for people as well if we're struggling, what they're doing, you know.

• 22:18Martin Lewis?

  So Rebecca, um, thank you for your question. I think probably just to, to hone it down, we're gonna split it into two. Let's first of all deal with the general, why is it so expensive? Why are there additional costs and what are you gonna do about it? I have other questions on term time that I will, I want to bring in later. So let, let's start with the first bit. Stay with us Rebecca, this is your question, not mine.

• 22:36Speaker 06

  Okay, thank you.

• 22:37Speaker 05

  Great, um, thanks very much Rebecca and I think, you know, I know lots of parents are struggling at the moment and that is why, and the costs and of childcare in this country have been historically very high, I do agree with that. But that's why with the rollout of the thirty funded hours from September, that's gonna lead to a big reduction in what parents are paying. So an average of seven and a half thousand pounds a year, parents will be saving per child. That will make a big difference. We've seen a big reduction in cost to parents with the last phase, with the previous rollout that's taken place, the last part that happened in April. So it is having an impact, but I agree with you, I know that parents are struggling, but this will make a really big difference to parents across the country with more government funding behind.

• 23:22Speaker 05

  What they're getting. Now, parents, of course, will often pay for extras on top of that. They might need other hours. But this also runs hand in hand with some of the support we're putting in place for parents who have school aged children too. So breakfast clubs, for example, that were starting to roll out across primary schools and capping the costs around school uniform. So quite practical cost of living measures, because I do know that it is still really tough out there for lots of parents like you. But I think the funded hours from September will make a really big difference in cutting costs to parents.

• 23:51Martin Lewis?

  Just to say, we're going to come to some nursery providers later on, because I know many of those had questions. But I want to keep it consumer at the moment. Rebecca, how old are your children?

• 23:59Speaker 06

  So I have, I have a three year old currently. My eldest is eight and she currently goes to primary school. It does feel a bit like giving with one hand and taking away with the other, to be honest.

• 24:10Martin Lewis?

  So you're, you're, you're three. So you're actually not going to see any change coming in September to the provisions available for you. So the main costs are, I presume, any excess hours for your three year old and also covering your, your eight year old when you're at work outside of term. And is there after school provision you need as well?

• 24:27Speaker 06

  Yes. So she goes to before and after school provision four days a week.

• 24:32Martin Lewis?

  And there's no breakfast clubs and there's no school provision where you are, I presume?

• 24:36Speaker 06

  They've not rolled it out in our area, well, for our particular school at the moment, the breakfast club. But all I'm hearing from providers is that the costs don't cover it.

• 24:45Speaker 05

  So just on breakfast clubs, we've started to roll out breakfast clubs. The first 750 opened last month. We want to roll out breakfast clubs in every primary school in England. That'll be 30 minutes of childcare for parents alongside the breakfast their children will get. We've put quite a significant amount of funding behind that. So schools will get paid an hourly rate for the child, but they'll also get a grant to cover costs. I've visited quite a few across the country, including in my own constituency in Sunderland. And school leaders and parents are really, you know, really encouraged about the progress we've made on this.

• 25:17Martin Lewis?

  We had had one who was going to offer it and then didn't, said the funding wasn't enough. So his school wasn't offering it. So it's not universal?

• 25:22Speaker 05

  No, and this is an early adopter scheme. So it's not everywhere. It gives us the chance to make sure we get the funding in the right place before, ahead of full national rollout. So and the time, I should say, the timescales in terms of what we were asking schools were pretty tight. So some felt they couldn't do it. But We've got more than 750. I appreciate that. It doesn't help Rebecca, but we will get there with all schools across England.

• 25:40Martin Lewis?

  Let's go to what is probably Rebecca's biggest issue and also Hayley. Why is it 38 weeks a year? Most working parents will work more than 38 weeks and holiday care should be a funded option for all schools until an age the government deems it's appropriate for kids to be left unsupervised for a period of time. Rianne, or Ryan, I'm sorry, I don't know which the name is. Why are the 30 hours free childcare only in term times? Ours are spread like most, but what it really means is they only actually get 22 hours because if you put 38 hours times 30 and you spread it over a year, it's 22 hours. Why are you expecting parents to stop work when their kids are not at school?

• 26:16Speaker 05

  No, and I have experienced this system as a parent too, so I do understand how it works and what that means for parents. Again, I mean, it was the last government made the decision to make it term time only to align with schools. I think there is a question.

• 26:31Martin Lewis?

  Why?

• 26:33Speaker 05

  Because that was the provision that was put in place for schools and they matched it. I can't speak to the rationale of what happened.

• 26:37Martin Lewis?

  But you are now in charge.

• 26:38Speaker 05

  Absolutely. But I appreciate now I can make decisions in these areas. All of this, both, and you know, we talked about the thresholds in terms of entitlements, the complexity of the system, term time only, how all of that works. I want to bring all of that together, think differently about how we deliver a system of childcare support for parents. As I said, we have had to focus on getting all of the support in place for the big expansion in September, which has been a really big undertaking. You know, lots more staff needed, lots more places needed. But once we get beyond that, you will hear a lot more from us as a government about the wider reform that I will bring to the childcare system, dealing with many of these points that I can't really kind of get to grips with now, but I am determined to sort.

• 27:20Martin Lewis?

  Rebecca, what do you think about what you're hearing?

• 27:22Speaker 06

  I think it all sounds good, but for instance, as soon as the government rolled out that they were going to start funding younger children, our prices were hiked at the nursery and that was because. They found out how much they were going to be getting to cover that and it wasn't going to cover it. And so to try and make it fair, they sort of rolled it out to all the parents and they've added those costs back on to the parent. And so for me, again, as we said before, it's not a benefit to me, but I'm paying more.

• 27:54Martin Lewis?

  And I think Rebecca's point of the knock on impacts of your policy. So both she as a paying more. And Rebecca, are you using tax free childcare, by the way?

• 28:04Speaker 06

  I am, yes. So I get childcare vouchers as well.

• 28:09Martin Lewis?

  Okay, so you're on those schemes. So you're getting some extra support there. Another one here, man, stay at home parent at risk of not being able to get preschool place as all will take 30 hours working parent funding from two years. They won't receive funding until the term after. So basically she's saying, you know, we don't get any support and your scheme has squeezed us out as getting nursery places because there aren't enough nursery places. And we had nearly a thousand questions when people knew you were coming on. There aren't enough nursery places. There aren't enough nursery places. There aren't enough nursery places was the echo that tumbled throughout. What did you say to that?

• 28:46Speaker 05

  I completely accept that there are big gaps across the country, have been big gaps, and the need to address places. And that's exactly what we've been getting on and doing. It's looking good for September in terms of places and staffing, but I'll be upfront about it. Not every parent will get the first choice place that they want. So I'll be completely frank, I can't guarantee that. But we're working really hard to make sure, particularly in parts of the country where there aren't the places available, more come on board. That's why from September, more nursery classes are going to be opening in primary schools. We've put money into that, which will really address some of the challenges that we face in places like the North and the Midlands, where there often isn't the private market to give parents what they want. Private sector providers have got a really important role to play. But often schools can provide the kind of term time offer that some stay at home

• 29:31Speaker 05

  parents would want who don't want to pay for extras because they don't need the extras.

• 29:35Speaker 04

  The question or a point here from Eve's talking about nurseries dictating how you can use your funded hours so the hours aren't convenient to your work schedule. Nurseries then charge stupid amounts outside of funded hours. So what you earn going to work only just about pays the nursery bill. What's that all about?

• 29:57Speaker 05

  I mean, nurseries have to try and manage what parents want and how it fits around parents with how they manage their staff. The one point I would add around what nurseries can and can't insist on by way of charging is that we have issued guidance that's restricting now what nurseries can do where it's connected to the funded hours. So they can't insist that, for example, nappies and consumables are a condition of taking up the government backed hours because that risks parents not being able to take up what they should. And there was also a legal judgment that made that case clear.

• 30:28Martin Lewis?

  So that means parents could provide their own, obviously, rather than have to use the one supply by the nursery?

• 30:33Speaker 05

  Yes. So it can't be a condition of taking up the funded hours. Nurseries can offer other things, but not if it's a condition of the funded hours. And that is going to really help parents as well.

• 30:43Martin Lewis?

  And they also can't do, you know, I mean, if you wanted to really jemmy the system as a nursery, you could say, okay, nine to 11 is funded hours, 11 to 12 isn't funded hours, 12, you know, 12 to one is funded, and one to two, and you could, they're not allowed to do that either.

• 30:58Speaker 04

  But who polices that?

• 30:59Speaker 05

  So most operate pretty straightforward models that you would kind of expect. And sometimes it's a question of, for example, you would take some if they're, if you only want to take up the funded hours of the 15 hours, you might just take mornings only or afternoons only. And then if you want extra or you're funded for extra, that's how they would deliver it. Now, nurseries, obviously, including those who are private businesses, do have flexibility in terms of, you know, their model. How they operate, but we've been really clear that there has to be transparency around that. So we're also going to insist that providers publish their charging policy, what they ask of parents, so that when parents are making choices about which nursery or which provider they want to use, they can really have all of the knowledge and information available to them.

• 31:39Speaker 04

  So Eve's obviously had some bad experiences. To whom should she complain? If she suspects they're not playing cricket, then where does she go with that?

• 31:48Speaker 05

  So in the first instance, speak to the provider and try and sort it out. If that doesn't work, the local council can provide support around this too. And if that doesn't, and they can escalate that if needs be. But local councils have got a crucial role in making sure this happens. But there was also a High Court ruling around some of, I think, what Eve is talking about in terms of where providers were insisting that you had to, that the nappies had to be paid for as part of, for example, part of your funded hours. That can't happen.

• 32:14Martin Lewis?

  So a couple of questions now that all fall in the same theme. Funded hours for nine months old come into effect on the start of the term after your child has turned nine months old, not when your child turns nine months old. So two on that. Amanda, why is it only three start dates a year, term dates? It's very unfair for children who turn nine months early April, having to wait until September the first to access their nine months funding. Also very unfair that it's the providers who have to make this clear to disappointed families. And Joe, baby is due early July, as we both work full time. We're very happy to get hours from nine months, although if baby is born in July, funded hours aren't available until 14 months later in September. This means we'd have to find money

• 32:57Martin Lewis?

  for five months or leave work, hoping he's early. I mean, hoping he's early, I think, says everything that, I mean, it is an anomaly in the system. Their child could possibly be 14 months old before they're getting any help.

• 33:07Speaker 05

  I'd have to check that last one because I'm not entirely sure on that point, but.

• 33:12Martin Lewis?

  Certainly it would be longer. It could be 12 months, 13 months.

• 33:16Speaker 05

  I think it's a fair challenge. I'll be honest, it is a fair challenge. This is part of the system that we've inherited. I do want to look at all of this. I mean, we discussed a number of complexities, threshold issues, anomalies with the system. I think we do need to consider how we simplify it and make it more accessible for parents, absolutely. And that's, you know, that issue I hear quite a lot.

• 33:36Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, I mean, even if you just doubled the number of dates, starting dates in the year, it would certainly close the gap so much more easily, wouldn't it?

• 33:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, Marie's question, it's a straightforward enough question, is how do you expect nurseries to continue to run when their costs have gone up? Wages have increased by over 10%, NI is now hitting them, that increase, utilities, you know, cost of living going up. But funding from the government has only increased by 1%. So their costs are going up by 10%, but your funding from us only gone up by 1%. There's a shortfall.

• 34:07Speaker 05

  So I think she's talking about the increase in the funding rate, which has gone up, but not perhaps by as much as Marie would like. And I do just want to stress that I think private nurseries do a fantastic job and are a really important part of the system. But in addition, it's the other elements that I was just talking about, the 75 million pounds expansion grant that will be allocated through local councils that wouldn't be in the number that Marie has just used. And also the doubling of the early years pupil premium. So again, a big investment in putting in place support for families, but also making sure that providers are getting the help that they need. But this is eight billion pounds as of September. It is a really big sum. And, you know, I won't dwell on the politics of this too much. This isn't what I'm here to talk about.

• 34:50Speaker 05

  But as an incoming government, we face lots of challenges about the state of the public finances and what we could prioritise and where we spent money. And to increase by more than two billion pounds going into this year, the amount of money we're putting into childcare, taking us to eight billion pounds is a really significant investment when you look at the wider backdrop about some of the pressures that are there. And the reason that we did that is because we know that it's critical that parents get that support, that childcare is available for more children across our country, because it's really important in terms of their development, the rest of their lives. But also there is a strong economic argument about giving parents choices about how they work, the hours they work and what's right for them. And for me, it's about parents having those choices, making decisions about what's right for them. But of course, you

• 35:33Speaker 05

  know, working with providers to make sure that the system works as well as it possibly can for them, because ultimately they are the people that deliver that brilliant education for our children.

• 35:41Speaker 04

  We can hear from a nursery owner. Gordon, go on.

• 35:43Speaker 07

  My question is, I know you want to support early years and you keep putting, saying these big numbers that are coming through, but the big challenge that we have is that costs, labour costs, which are up to 70% of the costs of nursery, went up by 11% this year. Okay, so you had the NI, the minimum wage, it went up by 11% on average across the board. Okay, but your funding on average went up by 3%. So therefore you want to support early years, but there's an 8% gap on this year alone. Now, I know that you say lots of extra funding. How do nurseries survive when you keep cutting the funding? We're 8% short this year. How do you do that? You've got to match the minimum wage and the national

• 36:27Speaker 07

  insurance of the year, and you did that after that was announced. And therefore, every nursery in the whole country has got massive funding gap this year because you effectively cut their funding.

• 36:38Speaker 05

  So as I said earlier-

• 36:39Speaker 07

  That's the problem.

• 36:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 05

  Sure, no, I understand that. And nurseries, including private nurseries, are critical. I do think it was right, however, alongside that-

• 36:46Martin Lewis?

  Do you accept his premise that you've cut the funding?

• 36:48Speaker 05

  No, we've in- we have increased the funding. I understand the addition-

• 36:50Speaker 07

  No, you haven't. My funding is 8% short this year because you gave a 3% increase in funding. Yes, overall, the funding is greater because there are more children going through. You're asking, overall, the sector is bigger. We accept that. But my nursery and everybody's nurseries who's listening is 8% down on the funding relative to the wage increases.

• 37:12Speaker 04

  And per child is the only way to count it, really.

• 37:14Speaker 07

  Per child. Absolutely. Per hour, per child. And therefore you are cutting the quality of early years education because you're not matching the minimum wage and national increase, which is 70% of our costs. That's the basic, and that's what you won't answer.

• 37:28Speaker 05

  So we are putting, I hear what Gordon has to say, but we are putting extra money into the system. There will be more money going out through local authorities around-

• 37:35Speaker 07

  There's not from my nursery.

• 37:37Speaker 05

  Around the early years expansion grant and the early years pupil premium, those increases there. But I do think alongside that-

• 37:42Speaker 07

  And the expansion grant mainly goes to school nurseries.

• 37:45Speaker 05

  Well, it's not, it's not.

• 37:46Speaker 07

  Not private nurseries.

• 37:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's not just for school nurseries. It's not just for school nurseries.

• 37:49Speaker 07

  It's the majority is though, and then we're having greater competitors. So you're trying to push out the private nurseries.

• 37:54Speaker 05

  No, no, absolutely not.

• 37:55Speaker 07

  And every single person that phones in will say that. Well, you need to support us and you need to turn around and say how absolutely amazing our sector is.

• 38:02Martin Lewis?

  Good. She has said what amazing your sector, but I, I accept there hasn't been anything there. I'd like to know, Gordon, what would you ask the Secretary of State to do specifically? What specifics would you want?

• 38:11Speaker 07

  I would ask her every single year from now on, whatever the minimum wage and national insurance increases are, you have to match that with the increase in funding. You know what it is when you set the funding rate, okay, every year, and you have to do that for us. Otherwise, the quality of early years education just goes down, down, down, down, down, down, and it's a race to the bottom.

• 38:32Martin Lewis?

  Bridget, can you do that?

• 38:33Speaker 05

  I will certainly take that away. I mean, we have increased the funding rates and we have increased the money going in, but I hear what Gordon, I hear.

• 38:39Speaker 07

  Three percent by, by, by 11%.

• 38:41Martin Lewis?

  Okay, let's, let's, let's get around to it.

• 38:44Speaker 05

  But, but I do hear what, I do hear what Gordon has to say on this, and I do take the concerns of the sector very seriously. I do, I do genuinely believe that people like you are doing a fantastic job, but I do think it's also right that alongside support that we put in, there are increases to the minimum wage to make sure that workers get a fair deal too. But I hear what Gordon has to say. I do want to make sure the sector gets a fair deal.

• 39:05Martin Lewis?

  I mean, we, we have to wrap around. You've just said 80% of childcare is coming, being paid by the state. There's a national minimum wage increase and there's an increase in national insurance contributions and you're the prime funder. So surely you have to ensure that those funds are paid for by the state at the same time and the matching at least those rises. It's not an unfair ask, is it?

• 39:23Speaker 05

  Absolutely, but we, as I say, we did the 75 million pound expansion grant, you know, does respond to some of the pressures that the sector are fe, are feeling and that will go out through local authorities and the early years pupil premium is there for all providers.

• 39:35Martin Lewis?

  Okay. Nick says, can you ask please, why do you think nurseries are putting on extra charges? Do you think, so this is you, Secretary of State, do you think they are greedy or just trying to survive due to the increase in wages, national insurance and utilities? Because of course, this has happened at the same time as an increased cost of employment with national insurance going up and utility bills. We have to survive and we are penalized for accepting funding. Any other businesses governed by their owner, not nurseries, we are dictated by their government. Why do they not treat nurseries the same as schools? No rates, able to claim VAT back. Hope you get some good answers, but please don't tarnish all the nurseries the same way. A lot of nursery providers don't like you very much. I need to be honest from what I've been reading.

• 40:14Speaker 05

  Well, that's a shame because I think they're doing brilliant work. I think there are fantastic private nurseries out there. I should also mention childminders, who are an important part of the

• 40:21Martin Lewis?

  Question coming on that too, yeah.

• 40:22Speaker 05

  And provide great flexibility for parents as well. I think there is a question about the balance between support for providers and what parents would expect around transparency. And I do think it's right that, given that 80% of childcare costs after September will be funded by the government, that we've got some transparency around what's going on, that parents can make informed choices, that the issue we've been talking about in terms of charging guidance, parents being able to provide nappies, that helping with cost. But in terms of what we're doing to support the sector, I do appreciate that there are staffing challenges. We're putting in more support around training, but there is a bigger question about how we better align early years in the school system, because, you know, there's a gulf between them and working more closely will be critical. And again, I'll say a bit more on that later on

• 41:06Speaker 05

  this year, in addition on the funding element.

• 41:09Martin Lewis?

  So that would be more what you want children to learn when they're in early years, like basic maths and that type of stuff?

• 41:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, and there's a lot of good work that's going on around that. But how we can better support the brilliant people working in early years to really have good access to training, support and development, as well as questions around pay, because early years is where you make the biggest difference to children's lives. And yet we don't give enough support to people who are doing that. So that's a big area of priority. In terms of the funding, by September, this is £8 billion a year. So it's a really big and significant investment in early years and childcare. But I do recognise the pressures that providers are under. That's why we have announced a £75 million expansion grant to help with creating more places in September. Alongside that, the Early Years People Premium is the extra money that goes in to support children from less well-off backgrounds. We've more than doubled that.

• 41:58Speaker 05

  That's the biggest ever increase. And that's to make sure that providers are able to put in place those childcare places for children who will benefit the most from that. So I do recognise the pressures. We are putting in place extra support, but there are all limits to what government can do. We are in some cases talking about profit-making businesses. That is absolutely right. They are profit-making businesses.

• 42:18Martin Lewis?

  Sometimes private equity. I mean, you go right from, you know, small, someone who's just got a very small nursery, right up to, you know, big conglomerate-funded nurseries, don't you?

• 42:26Speaker 05

  There is big variety within the system. I think in some ways that is a strength, but in other ways, there are some, there are some challenges there. I mean, I've visited lots of fantastic private nurseries, you know, family-run, independent, including in my own part of the world in Sunderland, and they are amazing alongside childminders. But it's about, I think, the choice and availability for parents.

• 42:45Speaker 04

  On childminders, Lindsay said, I'd love to see them treated with the same regard as nurseries and early years educators. Will soon be an extinct profession, given the chronic underfunding and all sorts of rules, regs, stipulations in ratio, planning permissions, et cetera.

• 43:03Martin Lewis?

  Childminder ratio is a big complaint.

• 43:05Speaker 05

  Yes, we have made some recent changes to help childminders around being able to work together to deliver more capacity, but also some of the changes around childminders being able to use non-domestic premises to deliver their services. I think childminders are a brilliant part of the system. They provide flexibility, including for parents who might work shifts or irregular hours. And my experience as a parent was I used a private nursery, but I also, at one point, we had a fantastic childminder, Lauren, who my children love, remember to this day, that for lots of parents is a really great offer and childminders are critical.

• 43:40Martin Lewis?

  Those are nice words, and I appreciate, and I can see that you're passionate about this. But let me just repeat the end of Lindsay's question. We will soon be an extinct profession with the chronic underfunding and stipulations in ratio and planning permissions. Are you actually practically going to do anything to help?

• 43:55Speaker 05

  We are making changes. So the changes around allowing childminders to operate from non-domestic premises to work together with others to increase their capacity and what they can do. But we are thinking more about how we can support childminders because we've seen in recent years a big drop in the number of childminders. And I know for many of the people that I represent who might work shifts or they work in the NHS. Regular hours that come of a nursery aren't what's available. And also, what I saw as a parent was the lovely home environment that that childminders offer that can be really wonderful in terms of children's development. So I'd encourage Lindsay and other childminders to work with us to make that change happen.

• 44:31Martin Lewis?

  I'm going to go to Suzanne, who said, on a similar issue, we still provide the perspective. When are the 30 hours free going to be available for parents to use against nannies? I'm presuming Suzanne is a nanny. Too many of us, yes, are being made redundant because free childcare is offered elsewhere. Surely that just ends up putting extra pressure on nurseries and childminders. Any thoughts of allowing it to be accessible to nannies? That's what Suzanne wants to know.

• 44:55Speaker 05

  To answer Suzanne directly, we don't have any plans on that front, I'm afraid. No.

• 45:01Martin Lewis?

  Why?

• 45:02Speaker 05

  I mean, there's a different kind of arrangement, isn't there, in that, you know, nannies will often be employed directly by parents. My understanding, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm not quite right on this, is that there are other ways in which you can access support to think about how you might, I don't know, for example, around tax-free childcare, if that can be used against nannies. I can't remember.

• 45:18Martin Lewis?

  They would have to be Ofsted or equivalent registered and regulated. So I'm not sure that would, I think that tends to be quite rare. I'd have to double check too.

• 45:26Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 45:27Martin Lewis?

  Let's move on to a different section now. I want to go on to childcare for older children. Gail says, there's a huge focus on getting the early years right, but once they turn 11, all those lovely holiday clubs, et cetera, stop or are very limited. Current school structure does not enable working parents of 10, 11 plus without a network of relying on networking and friendship groups. Why is there no funding in 11 plus when you're not illegally allowed to have your child at home not supported? I'm not sure. I think the law about child supported is a reasonableness rather than an age test, isn't it?

• 45:57Speaker 05

  I think there are, age depending, I think there are various kind of recommendations isn't strong enough, but clear guidance about age, about age appropriate.

• 46:05Martin Lewis?

  But generally, 11 year olds at home all day by themselves isn't something we particularly want, is it?

• 46:09Speaker 05

  No, it's, no, my child is only a little older than that, and I wouldn't have left her. So I understand, I do understand, yeah.

• 46:15Martin Lewis?

  So let's just go, in the old childcare voucher system, you could, which is where you basically got, and we'll call it a 20%ish top up on your childcare, was similar to the tax-free childcare, you could use that if you're paying up to age 16. Tax-free childcare is age up to 11. So one of the things I would say to anybody listening now, which people don't often realise, if you only pay for your kids to go to summer schools, you know, after school clubs if your school is, or if your child's school is running support and clubs, which are effectively childcare during the summer when you're working, as long as they're Ofsted or equivalent registered, you can get tax-free childcare for that. And all the other support functions can work, universal credit can be used on anything Ofsted registered. But universal credit is up to 16, why is tax-free childcare only up to age 11?

• 47:00Speaker 05

  I didn't design it, so I'm not sure.

• 47:01Martin Lewis?

  No, but you weren't in charge of it.

• 47:02Speaker 05

  But I am in charge. You're quite right. I think what this discussion has really illustrated is that many complexities in terms of how the system has evolved over time. There have been bits added on, but it hasn't been dealt with as a coherent whole. Now, I'm not going to be able to sort all of the kind of around school and wraparound and holiday provision all in one go, because that is a substantial undertaking. But I do know that it's a challenge for lots of parents. I know it's particularly a challenge for lots of lower income families too. And that's why the Holiday Activities and Food Programme does also put in place support in holiday times for lower income families. And there is some great support out there. Councils will publicise that.

• 47:43Martin Lewis?

  That tends to be for children on free school meals, doesn't it?

• 47:45Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 47:45Martin Lewis?

  And just because I think it's worth, you were on free school meals, weren't you?

• 47:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 47:48Martin Lewis?

  Yeah. So you understand the background that that's coming from?

• 47:52Speaker 05

  I do. And yeah, I spent part of my childhood on free school meals. My mum brought me up on her own. So even when she was working and I was earning more and I was no longer on free school meals, it's always tight when there's only one earner in the household. So, you know, I'm a long way away from that now and I know how lucky I am. But I do always have in my mind the kids that I represent as well. Sunderland's not an affluent part of the world. And there are lots of challenges people are facing and they want to get on and do well for their families. But the breakfast clubs that we're putting in place, that are starting to roll out from April, will make a really big difference. There is additional investment going into supporting schools to create wraparound provision. Now, that isn't all going to be free provision. But making sure that it's at least available because in some places, parents just really

• 48:35Speaker 05

  struggle to get any form of wraparound at all. But the breakfast clubs are going to make a really big difference. Seven hundred and fifty that have already opened from April, but right across our country to really help parents at the start of the day.

• 48:45Martin Lewis?

  When do you think that will be getting to more universal? When would you like to see that being a more universal provision?

• 48:50Speaker 05

  Well, we've got legislation going through Parliament at the moment. The Children's Wellbeing in Schools Bill is where we're legislating to create thirty minutes of breakfast club provision for all children in every primary school. I want to go as quickly as I can on that. Funding is, you know, funding is a challenge at the moment, right across public services, but I want to get that ruled out as quickly as possible by the end of the Parliament.

• 49:10Martin Lewis?

  But again, it all stops at eleven. And, you know, and I think that's something, you know, you've got an eleven or twelve year old, they're still looking after, they're still a child. And I think, I mean, it's interesting, we could, you know, press a button tomorrow, change tax-free childcare into the working family childcare, top up, much better name, and say it goes to age sixteen. And that would provide a little bit of extra support going back towards a similar to the parity of the childcare voucher system. You can write that one down, it's fine.

• 49:32Speaker 05

  I've, I've, I've made a mental note on my further discussions with the Chancellor, don't worry.

• 49:36Speaker 04

  On SEN, Special Educational Needs Disability, Alison says she wants to know about childcare for those children with special educational needs who aren't catered for at all. Her daughter's fourteen, spent no holiday care, no after-school care at any point. She needs an adult at all time. Said, nobody ever considers families like ours.

• 49:57Speaker 05

  I could probably do a whole hour talking about the SEN system, in addition to a whole hour on childcare, because there are lots and lots of problems exactly of that kind, but including across the school system. It's a big area of priority in terms of the change I want to bring. But councils can provide some support to support families, such as in the case you've just described, to access childcare, including in the holidays. But I know it's not easy and. There is extra, kind of separate and extra support that goes into providing provision for children with SEND, but there is a huge challenge in terms of getting to a much better system overall for children with SEND. It's not working at the moment. I hear that loud and clear from parents. And we've got to have a much bigger focus on good outcomes

• 50:40Speaker 05

  for children with SEND, because, you know, we talk about the impact of early years on life chances. Children with SEND, their outcomes just aren't good enough at the moment.

• 50:47Martin Lewis?

  And we had similar from Page. Can you ask what they put in place for children who can't access education due to additional needs? What can be done to support the families who need and want to work but struggle due to the shortages in SEND provision and even PRUs? Yes, funding is a crisis for younger years, but about primary school aged children who are in SEND for mainstream but not SEND enough for a SEND school. So actually, they can access education, she says.

• 51:11Speaker 05

  There's an enormous challenge around support for children with SEND. One element of the breakfast clubs rule out that we're making, shall we build into that, is how we ensure that they are accessible for all children. So we are also piloting them in special schools as well as in mainstream schools. And we want to make sure that including in mainstream schools, when they're ruled out, children with SEND are able to access that. So there's a lot of work going on about how we do that. But there's also some of the schools taking part in the scheme are special schools. So we make sure that we're providing a system that works for all children.

• 51:40Martin Lewis?

  Thank you very much, Secretary of State, for joining us. It was really important to sit down, try and not be too political and get through some of the conundrums that are going out there in childcare. And whether people like the answers or not, I'm very grateful that you, you at least came on and wanted to engage with them.

• 51:53Speaker 05

  No, thanks very much. And I just really encourage parents to go and have a look at the childcare choices website, see what they're entitled to, and take up the support that's available if that's right for them.

• 52:04Martin Lewis?

  Right, well, I've just stepped out of Adrian's studio to go to a neighbouring studio, having done the interview with the Secretary of State. Normally, at this point, I'd be recording all of my podcast extras, but I'm not going to do them today because, well, if you've been listening throughout the podcast, then it's childcare you're interested in. And I think, well, there's enough in there for you to think about without adding anything extra on the back. But I did want to do a few final thoughts. When I asked Bridget Phillips to do this interview, I was in a private meeting where I was discussing, as I often do, some of the agenda issues on student finance and childcare. And she was talking about how she thinks childcare wasn't understood enough. So I said, well, come on the podcast, let's talk about it. But the invite was quite a specific one. When you meet politicians, they have lots of different hats.

• 52:48Martin Lewis?

  They can be a constituency MP, they can be somebody who's championing their party. But when you meet a Secretary of State or a minister, they have an executive job in running the nation. I mean, literally, they're a member of what is technically called the executive. And in her role as Secretary of State for Education, she's effectively the chief executive of childcare in England. And the state is paying for 80% of childcare, so that is a really big job. And it was in that context I wanted the podcast to happen, and I hope you think we've achieved that. Rather than it being the political point scoring idea. My aim was twofold. One, to try and make sure people understand what childcare support is available to them and the challenges available, the challenges that are out there, where there are challenges.

• 53:31Martin Lewis?

  But also, I wanted the Secretary of State to understand what challenges people are facing on childcare. And you heard many times through the podcast of saying, I'll take a note of that, I'll add it on the list, or I'm sorry, we haven't been able to do anything yet. And I think there's a level of acceptance that this is a super tanker that will need turning around for some of those points. I was especially pleased that we got Gordon, the nursery owner, on as a caller. And for those listening to the podcast, I want to just explain, break the fourth wall, if you like, of what really happened. We originally had a woman called Marie, who was due to be on representing nurseries, because we'd had so many questions from nursery owners, and many of whom can be quite angry

• 54:13Martin Lewis?

  about what the Secretary of State has done, and I wanted that to be a part of the show. But when it came to it live, we couldn't get in touch with her. So all our plans had gone wrong. We had to move on from the section about provider issues, and then with three minutes to go in the pod, Gordon had obviously got in touch and the producers had brilliantly managed to get him on air, so we got a nursery caller. Now, when you listen to it, I've asked the producers to put that in the bit into the pod where it makes sense, which is the stuff where we're talking about what the different providers had a saying about nursery provision. So it will all run seamlessly. But in the reality of doing it, there was a little bit of panic, and we had to squeeze it in right at the end. But it's very important to get that message across.

• 54:54Martin Lewis?

  And I think that the dialogue between Gordon and the Secretary of State, and the anger Gordon was showing, is representative of the anger many nursery owners and runners are feeling. So delighted that we got that in there. Ultimately, the big judge of this. And if we're generous to the Secretary of State, many of the things that were asked about were things she said she wanted to improve, but you have to do it step by step in turning the supertanker around. So the real question would be, in two or three years' time, if we listen back to the pod, how many of those issues will have been addressed then? You never know, I might send myself a delay send email now to look at it again in two years' time, and maybe, assuming she's still Secretary of State then, invite her back and we'll do a catch up and we'll put some of these past clips to her then, and hopefully

• 55:39Martin Lewis?

  in a wonderful Nirvana world, it will have all been fixed.

• 55:47Martin Lewis?

  And that is it for this week. If you've enjoyed it, please tell your friends that you've been listening to the Martin Lewis podcast. And if you know someone who's interested in childcare, why not suggest that they have a listen to this too? Because there's a lot of important information, or even potentially somebody's thinking about having children in the next few years. We tend to put out a new episode every Thursday. Do subscribe to keep up to date and then hopefully your pockets will be pleased with you. Back to the normal type of pod next week. See you then.

• 56:31Speaker 08

  Martin Lewis is the founder of MoneySavingExpert.com. But of course, other consumer and price comparison websites are available. You can get in touch with Martin's podcast production team by emailing [email protected]. The offers and rates mentioned in the podcast are correct at the time of recording. However, if you are listening on demand, it's worth double checking as details can date. Remember to subscribe on BBC Sounds and leave us a review however you listen.

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  BBC Sounds. Music. Radio. Podcasts.

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