Brené Brown: The Rage Bucket Theory

Trevor and Eugene sit down with professor, author, and The Curiosity Shop co-host Brené Brown for a conversation about connection in an age of constant connectivity. From parasocial relationships and modern media to friendship, community, and the universal desire to feel like we belong, Brené brings her trademark mix of insight, honesty, and humor. Together, the three explore why genuine human connection can feel harder to find than ever — and why it remains one of the most important things we have.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  I'm a sports girl.

• 0:05Trevor Noah?

  Oh, you are?

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 0:07Trevor Noah?

  Which sport?

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Volleyball.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  I mean, I-

• 0:11Speaker 02

  squash. Pickleball.

• 0:14Trevor Noah?

  Whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 0:14Speaker 02

  Badminton.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  I play pickleball six days a week.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's go! Let's go! Really, I could smell it in you. Let's go! Or something hippie-ish.

• 0:24Speaker 00

  It's not like you've got a good nose, I'm a white lady that's in- like, I'm a white lady over 50. I mean, this is not hard.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  I didn't say chai and matcha.

• 0:33Speaker 00

  What are you gonna say next? I bet you baked sourdough.

• 0:38Trevor Noah?

  Wait, you play pickleball six days a week?

• 0:39Speaker 00

  I do.

• 0:41Trevor Noah?

  I have found my kind.

• 0:49Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

• 0:56Trevor Noah?

  This segment is brought to you by Google Pixel. You know what's really frustrating? Knowing the exact information you need is somewhere on your phone, but still ending up wasting your time digging through five different apps just to actually find it. Thankfully, Google Pixel 11 is designed with Gemini intelligence, so it can proactively find the information I need right when I need it. Like my flight info and travel days, or my calendar when Eugene texts me to hang out. Oh, sorry Eugene, I'm booked. Learn more about what Google Pixel 11 can do at googlestore.com. These AI features are available in select countries and languages for users 18 and over, and make sure to check responses.

• 1:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, booked forever, forever.

• 1:44Speaker 03

  Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. It's the tangiest time of the year. For a limited time, head to McDonald's and get a McRib sandwich. Make it a meal by adding a medium fries and a soft drink like an ice cold Diet Dr. Pepper. So grab a McRib sandwich and embrace the tang. Save time by ordering ahead on the app. At participating McDonald's for a limited time. Dr. Pepper is a registered trademark of Dr. Pepper 7-Up Inc.

• 2:09Trevor Noah?

  This episode is brought to you by Verizon.

• 2:13Trevor Noah?

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• 2:58Trevor Noah?

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• 3:27Speaker 02

  One word greeting that would not give me away.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  Try what's up.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:32Speaker 00

  Okay, okay. What, give me the context.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  The point here is.

• 3:35Trevor Noah?

  Hey would probably work. Hey, I would try go with a hey.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Look, I fought the water and the water.

• 3:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  I fought that one hard. First time I came, I would go, can I have some water? And I'll get looked at for a long time, stared at. Then I'll be like, hey, may I please have some water? And then I'll get water.

• 3:53Trevor Noah?

  Your water sounding good.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, you see, I fought that for long. So now.

• 3:57Trevor Noah?

  But it's interesting that you learned to say it from a woman.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  Some water?

• 4:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, the way you're saying it.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  Cause you go girl.

• 4:04Trevor Noah?

  You go girl.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Again, Rebecca.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 4:09Trevor Noah?

  No, but I'm serious, you go girl.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  You go girl.

• 4:11Trevor Noah?

  You go girl.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  Really? Yeah, you go, hey, can I get some water?

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're like, hey, um, can I have some water?

• 4:16Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  Wait, you go girl. You go girl hard.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  Hey, um, can I have some water?

• 4:24Trevor Noah?

  Now it's not really American.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  What is it now?

• 4:27Trevor Noah?

  No, it was a mix. It was like a hybrid. Your, your American girl sounds like American, but it's American girl.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Wait, let me back up a little bit more. Like, let me go all the way back to, this is what happens like when I'm working with leaders and I, and every, everyone gets into this conversation and I'm like, wait a minute. What problem are we trying to solve? That's my favorite question.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:44Trevor Noah?

  I think Eugene, the correct question for Eugene is what problem are we trying to create?

• 4:53Speaker 02

  You're not wrong.

• 4:54Trevor Noah?

  That's what I mean.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:55Trevor Noah?

  With you, it's the opposite.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  I refuse to answer that question.

• 4:58Trevor Noah?

  That's my favorite, that's what we were talking about before you came. We were saying like, I was saying, I, I wish I get to testify one day in front of the Senate. Because, first of all, there's no ramifications. So that's like, it's a loose thing, even though people act like it's a big deal.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on.

• 5:11Trevor Noah?

  At a Senate hearing.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Senate hearing? The Senate hearing and the Congress hearing? Are they two different things?

• 5:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, but what I'm saying is like, if you have to go testify.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:17Trevor Noah?

  In front of, you know what I mean? Where it's like a congressional, they're, they're bringing you in.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 5:21Trevor Noah?

  They always make it seem like there's consequences. There are none, which is great.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 5:24Speaker 00

  This is basically just B-roll.

• 5:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but they also don't.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Basically B-roll for other political things.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Wait, wait, nothing ever happens when people testify like that?

• 5:32Trevor Noah?

  Companies come in, industries come, it's like slap on the wrist. Nothing really happens.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Or public flogging with a...

• 5:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, that's it. It's public flogging.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:39Trevor Noah?

  But what I do enjoy is the, just the, no, Senator.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:43Trevor Noah?

  That is, that is correct. Well, I, I don't, I don't have the numbers on hand, but I don't think it is that high.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  To the best of my ability.

• 5:53Trevor Noah?

  Yes. Oh, I love that one.

• 5:54Speaker 00

  I'm sorry, I don't remember.

• 5:56Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 5:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:58Trevor Noah?

  I love it when, whenever they go testify in front of Congress, they don't know anything about their company.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  The person to deny anything.

• 6:04Trevor Noah?

  It is. It really is.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  I'm sorry?

• 6:06Speaker 00

  It was built for it.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  Phonetically, we spent a lot of time on that.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:11Trevor Noah?

  What do you mean?

• 6:12Speaker 00

  Like, it was part of the, yeah, it was part of our thing and, yeah. We, we worked on it really hard to have the denial, with a denial.

• 6:19Trevor Noah?

  I feel like you're tricking us here. Because you're an expert, now I have to believe, I'm like, I don't know if this is a real thing or not.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  No.

• 6:25Trevor Noah?

  Actually, how, how often, how often do people, no, how often do people think that you're saying something completely genuine when you're not? Because, because you're Brene Brown.

• 6:36Speaker 00

  It depends if whether they, if you're related to me, you know I'm bullshitting you. Okay, okay, okay, okay. But if you're in general, like, I do. You never know. You don't ever know, but I, I think, yeah, I should probably be,

• 6:51Speaker 00

  um, well, unfortunately, the same thing that makes you undatable makes me dangerous.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  You just say the thing that comes into your head. Comes to my head, yeah. So I'm trying to, I, oh, damn. Um, I,

• 7:10Speaker 00

  I don't, I shouldn't talk about this. Okay, I'm gonna talk about it anyway. Okay. Yeah. Um, that's like your whole. Is that a denial? No, no, it's, it's,

• 7:20Speaker 00

  I did this, um, interview in January with the Financial Times, you know, uptight. Yeah, FT, Financial Times, yeah. And I, 20 minutes before I went downstairs, and it was in the, like, a room in the hotel, everything was unfolding with ice in Minneapolis. Uh huh. And I was loaded for bear. I mean, I was, I was coming out of my mind. So when I sat down, whatever the opposite of media training is, is what happened. Really? Oh, yeah, I, I just went. I, and that's the whole thing that, and I kept, even on the elevator down, I was like, think before you speak. Don't think, then say it. Think, and then pause, and then say it. Think before you speak.

• 8:04Speaker 00

  And then just really pause. Um, but it didn't work like that. And then what I'll go down in history for is potentially the best correction in Financial Times history, which said researcher Dr. Brené Brown did not say she's in her fucking era. She said she was in her fuck it era.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  That is a correction they had to print. Yeah, in the Financial Times. And then, you know, one of the things that I- That is one of the greatest corrections. Yeah.

• 8:36Trevor Noah?

  That's what's going in my gravestone.

• 8:40Speaker 00

  No, and you know that noise, you know that sound effect? You do this sound effect really well. You might be my favorite at this. You go, like, make the noise when the texts come on.

• 8:51Trevor Noah?

  When the?

• 8:52Speaker 00

  When you turn on your phone and there's like seven, like you're post Grammy.

• 8:56Trevor Noah?

  Oh, you mean like when the, when the, the, the, like, they look bling, bling.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, but when there's like thirty of them.

• 9:02Trevor Noah?

  Oh, when it's like.

• 9:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you turn your phone on, you're like, oh, no.

• 9:09Speaker 00

  Didn't you do that well?

• 9:14Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  You know why he knows how to do that well?

• 9:16Speaker 00

  His life?

• 9:17Speaker 02

  He doesn't answer texts.

• 9:18Trevor Noah?

  Wow, Eugene. What are you talking about? A text doesn't stop buzzing when you answer it or don't answer it. I feel like he just uses as a, as a moment to like air out a feeling you have about me. You can't answer a text.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  No, that was a deeply, appropriately contextualized stray.

• 9:35Trevor Noah?

  To confirm nor deny that. Wait, so let's go back to this and then I'm gonna handle this.

• 9:40Speaker 00

  No, that, that, the context for your stray was on point. It was excellent.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  You're not allowed to.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 9:49Trevor Noah?

  So.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  So I, so I don't even know this thing is running and then it's.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  And when I saw the article, I was really upset because I thought we had talked about a lot of great, great things. And basically they took the five sentences where I was the most kind of angry and unhinged.

• 10:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  And they just then wrote around those five sentences. So it wasn't super coherent, but it made me look like someone, one of the comments in the thing, which I shouldn't have read because my therapist says I'm supposed to be off those, but I read it anyway. Someone said, oh, wow, she's like the Beth Dutton, like the, the wild character from Yellowstone that kills people.

• 10:23Trevor Noah?

  Oh, damn.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  She's the Beth Dutton of leadership. But then when the financial. Yeah, when the Financial Times correction came out. One, one guy on like whatever, what are we calling Twitter these days? I'm not on it anymore.

• 10:37Trevor Noah?

  X, X now.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Said a Financial Times correction for the ages. And there's like fifty thousand.

• 10:44Trevor Noah?

  It is the greatest. Yeah. That is the greatest correction ever because now it makes me want to go read the article because now it makes me. But, but it's funny, you know the thing you're talking about? Almost maybe answers a question I've had for a while. I've wondered why um public conversation has become so sanitized. Like like like interviews, everything. You know, I was watching clips from late nights, but like old late night. And I was like, it was so much more honest.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  Oh, it was.

• 11:14Trevor Noah?

  Someone would come on and they'd go like, oh, so your your movie came out, uh, you know, what do you, what do you think? It was like, I'll be honest, it was a piece of trash. Look, it's it's not a great film, but uh, you know, you make movies and you you get up and you do it again. And you're like, wow, I don't know the last time I saw someone saying that a movie they made was trash.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  It's completely true. Or I I I'm not sure I was drunk the whole time.

• 11:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, just like that, those types of things. Just and and I found myself going. The reason I was I've been going down this rabbit hole is because I was wondering when society sort of like lost its ability to be honest in certain spaces. But then what you what you're saying maybe answers the question, because I've experienced this as well. If you're gonna go out and talk to media or have any conversation with them, and then they're gonna warp that because they know that's the thing that gets them the most views and the most clicks, then people now become more and more and more rigid. And so when they go to an interview or when they have a conversation, they go, I'm not gonna say anything.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  That you can use against.

• 12:15Trevor Noah?

  That you can use against me.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  That's dating.

• 12:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but now what what it means is you just end up in a world where you said nothing. Because you're so scared and correctly, you're so scared that the person will take the one part of the interview, your fuck it era. They're gonna take that and make that the interview as opposed to putting it in context. And so then people go, you know what, you're not gonna see any real parts of me. I will give you the most sanitized version of me. But then ironically, what that's done is it's made people like I think there's a reason. TV is dying and like celebrity culture is sort of like waning and and now it's become more about social media. Because people are looking for real and mainstream doesn't like have real anymore in that way.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  So basically, you're saying people conduct themselves in interviews like sports stars do.

• 13:04Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  They just state the obvious facts.

• 13:07Trevor Noah?

  They say nothing.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  Well, they're very, I mean, so I what I think is interesting. This is.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  There's 40 steps I'm gonna take here in one sentence. So I understand that it seems preposterous, but I think it's also... What you're describing is also at the root of things like strong man authoritarianism. And I think the results of what you're saying are more, to me, they're deeper than dying media. Damn. Yeah, because in this, in this article, I was unfiltered. And journalists, you know, fair play, journalists don't have the ability to pick their headlines. So the headline for the Financial Times article was, "Leaders Now Have Permission to Be the

• 14:01Speaker 00

  Assholes They Really Are." That was the headline in the Financial Times. Wow. You know, researcher Brene Brown says... Well, completely taken out of context, I was talking about the protection of authoritarian, the protection that authoritarian leaders are giving specifically tech leaders right now. Ah. Because they are complicit in, you know, money, coercion. Right. You know, a lot of things that are happening. So you really only have two choices: be sanitized and media-trained, which is say nothing about nothing. Yeah. Or if you are really authentic in yourself, it'll be warped to the point that you are vilified.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  Yes. So what makes us, I think, so interesting and beautiful as people is that we are a combination of holy and profane. We are a combination of shitty and wonderful. And when you strip that ability to be both things in the media, it's just the beginning of how we see people. Yeah. You're human or you're not human. You know, and so I find it to be, we had, you know, I think we had really important conversations about...

• 15:29Speaker 00

  What people are saying about the New World Order, about how leadership is being perceived and modeled in organizations by, you know, they're looking at politicians and like, I can get away with anything now. And then yet, we just went with the five most outrageous crazy things and built an article around that. And so, the nuance and the context and the fact that I am both, I think I have something worth sharing and I'm pissed off. Those things can coexist.

• 16:01Trevor Noah?

  Right. But I think to your point, you see that the, one of my favorites, you know, quotes and ideas to live by, I think it was Charlie Munger who made it famous. But he said, "Show me the incentive and I will show you the outcome."

• 16:16Speaker 00

  Oh, God. The whole time that you were saying, I was like, we've got misaligned incentives. Yes.

• 16:23Trevor Noah?

  That's exactly what Charlie Munger said. He said, "Show me the incentive and I will show you the outcome."

• 16:29Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 16:30Trevor Noah?

  Because we take for granted, right? We take for granted that a news organization. So let's say if you look at America, you know, around like 50s, 60s, even going into like the 70s, when the news division of a media company was supposed to be a loss leader, as in it couldn't make a profit. There was just a different style of news telling. There was a different style. It was like, these are the facts. This is what's happening. Let's keep it moving. Because they didn't have to try and get your eyeballs, because they didn't have to try and get advertising, and so on and so on and so on.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  They were reporting the news.

• 17:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if your job is to report the news, you will report the news.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Whatever news that is.

• 17:10Trevor Noah?

  But if your job is to get eyeballs and your job is to get viewers and your job is to increase readership and your job is, well, then news might not align with that all the time. You start going, what's newsworthy and what's audience worthy?

• 17:26Speaker 00

  Clickable.

• 17:27Trevor Noah?

  What's clickable? And so having somebody say something crazy and making that the focus, that's, that's the most clickable thing that you can create. And it robs, but to your point, it robs us of the nuance of like, of genuinely of like everything, I feel, you know, you know, you've seen it, you, you, you say the thing about athletes.

• 17:45Trevor Noah?

  Honestly, one of my favorite things about podcasts has been, have you seen how many athletes have podcasts now?

• 17:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:49Trevor Noah?

  Where they now like say like the real thing.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 17:52Trevor Noah?

  Express themselves.

• 17:52Speaker 00

  I love it so much.

• 17:53Trevor Noah?

  It's the greatest.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  Cause I'm a big, I'm a sports girl.

• 17:55Trevor Noah?

  Oh, you are?

• 17:55Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 17:57Trevor Noah?

  Which, which sport?

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Volleyball.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  I mean, I.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Wash. Pickleball.

• 18:04Trevor Noah?

  Whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Badminton.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  I, I play, I play pickleball six days a week.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Renee, I could smell it in you. Let's go. It was something hippie-ish.

• 18:14Speaker 00

  It's not like you've got a good nose, I'm a white lady that's in like, I'm a, I'm a white lady over 50. I mean, this was not hard.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  My child.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  What are you gonna say next? I bet you bake sourdough.

• 18:28Trevor Noah?

  Wait, you play pickleball six days a week?

• 18:29Speaker 00

  I do.

• 18:31Trevor Noah?

  I have found my kind.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  Please don't do this.

• 18:34Speaker 00

  Eugene, you wanna play?

• 18:36Trevor Noah?

  You know what's funny about this is, you know what's funny?

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Please don't.

• 18:39Speaker 00

  We'll be partners.

• 18:40Trevor Noah?

  You know what's funny about this, Eugene?

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Will you teach me?

• 18:41Speaker 00

  I, I, I mean.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  He's been trying for a long time.

• 18:44Speaker 00

  Don't flirt with me. If you wanna learn pickleball, I'm gonna teach you, I'm gonna find a court and I'm gonna teach you.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Look.

• 18:52Speaker 00

  Back where I come from, we say, I'm available?

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Can you tell where I'm from? I'm available? Or water?

• 19:06Trevor Noah?

  You know what I love is, you brought up pickleball. So Eugene hates how much I love pickleball.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:12Trevor Noah?

  And so my, my deal.

• 19:13Speaker 00

  Wait, are you feeling, wait?

• 19:15Trevor Noah?

  Surrounded?

• 19:15Speaker 00

  No. Are you feeling left out?

• 19:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  I love that I'm not part of this cult of yours.

• 19:24Trevor Noah?

  Eugene hates how much I love pickleball. So the deal I've made for our friendship is I won't, I don't bring it up.

• 19:29Speaker 00

  But he brought it up.

• 19:30Trevor Noah?

  That's what I love about this moment is that he has brought this upon himself.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  I'm constantly trying to find reinforcements here and everywhere I go, turncoats everywhere. Everyone plays pickleball at some point, loves it. And I'm like, this guy just, the fact that he loves that thing.

• 19:46Trevor Noah?

  Aw, man.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  And I've, I've tried immersing myself in it. I've gone to his pickleball matches at night.

• 19:51Trevor Noah?

  Yes, but you don't play with us.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  No, this is not, this is not a spectator sport.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  I don't even wanna touch this thing.

• 19:56Trevor Noah?

  It's not a great spectator sport. It's the best participation sport.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  It's participate, I mean, but you know what?

• 20:03Speaker 00

  I see you. I think you wanna play pickleball. I, I, I think you do. I think, I think.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  I like the clothes.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  I think.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  The shorts are freeing.

• 20:14Speaker 00

  The, the shorts, I mean, there's a leather.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  It's a great excuse to wear the shorts and not have to explain yourself to anyone.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  I need to see what shorts you're talking about first. Oh, what kind of shorts do you wear? Oh, you wear short shorts?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, he does.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  Are we talking like?

• 20:25Trevor Noah?

  Are they short shorts?

• 20:26Speaker 00

  Larry, Larry Bird Celtic shorts?

• 20:27Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. That's his friend.

• 20:29Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no. Yeah, my friend who wears like, you're right, you're right. Lawrence wears the short shorts.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, Lawrence wears the short shorts.

• 20:36Trevor Noah?

  No, no, I don't have the short shorts.

• 20:37Speaker 00

  Cause the short shirt guys can be a menace on the court. Like we.

• 20:39Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, no, no, I don't, I don't have the short shorts. I just have the shorts.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  His shorts are short.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  But five, seven or nine inch shorts. What's your length?

• 20:46Trevor Noah?

  Seven.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  Oh, you're good. Okay. I see. You like your legs.

• 20:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but Eugene is still like, for him, that's still short shorts.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  That's a short short.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like.

• 20:54Speaker 00

  But are you more like an Adam Sandler short guy?

• 20:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, but not too much over the knee because it kind of squashes me in.

• 21:00Speaker 00

  But to the knee?

• 21:01Speaker 02

  But almost, just almost by the knee, just enough, two, two fingers.

• 21:06Speaker 00

  Can I borrow him to go shopping and play pickleball?

• 21:08Trevor Noah?

  Anytime.

• 21:10Speaker 00

  I'm gonna put you in some nine inch athletic shorts.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  And then we're gonna play pickleball.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  No long socks.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  I'm with you.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  I can't do long socks.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  But can you do, can you do ankle socks? Are you a no show guy?

• 21:24Speaker 02

  I can do an ankle sock and a push to solidify our relationship because I'm giving you just a little bit, just to show you that I trust you. But I'll go secret socks any day, tucked in, no one can see, I'm good. But if you're saying, okay, Eugene, if you're gonna go with the these socks, I would feel like you're trying to get involved in my world because I like submerging myself in people's worlds.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  If you give me a nine inch hem on your short, I'll give you no show socks.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Give me a seven and maybe I'll.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  Do a crew?

• 21:57Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 21:58Speaker 00

  You saw it here first.

• 21:59Trevor Noah?

  I did see it here first.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:00Trevor Noah?

  That is impressive.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  No, we're we're playing like I I will fly back here to play.

• 22:04Trevor Noah?

  That is impressive, impressive deal making.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Sorta.

• 22:08Trevor Noah?

  He wishes.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  But wait, wait, wait, but I want to know, like, just go back to the sports thing.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  Hey, wait a minute. What? Okay, one thing I wanted to say, because I'm I'm like, I just want to finish a um, I want to go back to when the news was a loss leader. It was interesting. It was a financial loss leader, but it was an equity builder for trust in the network.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 22:33Trevor Noah?

  Say that again.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Okay, so news was a loss leader financially, but it but it's so its only job really was to build equity in the network so that other people, other people didn't have that job, which I think is part of I don't I don't want a talk show host being tasked with building equity in trust.

• 22:58Trevor Noah?

  You're not wrong.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  Right. I don't I don't I don't want that because.

• 23:00Trevor Noah?

  Something has failed.

• 23:01Speaker 00

  Something has failed and A, I don't believe you to begin with. Like, you're you're in a bit. You're in a bit right now. Like, you know, and so, but the news, when the news's job was to build equity through public trust.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Without regard to financial encumrement, I guess, we were better. I think we were better then. And then pickleball, I do play six days a week. And it's been, it's been one of the most fun, because I was a tennis player for 40 years. And I follow a lot of sports. I follow Go Birds, I'm an Eagles fan, I'm a huge Liverpool fan. In fact, I just did-

• 23:36Trevor Noah?

  No ways. Eugene has just been thrust into, oh Eugene, I'm sorry. This feels like a trap. And I didn't, I swear-

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Let's hold hands Eugene, come on.

• 23:46Trevor Noah?

  I swear I didn't do this to you.

• 23:48Speaker 00

  Walk on, walk on.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  This can't be happening.

• 23:57Trevor Noah?

  Eugene, I'm so sorry.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Wait.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  You love pickle and you're a Liverpool fan.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. In fact, I was just on a podcast in the UK and they handed me their phone and they said, "Hit play." And it was Steven Gerrard saying, "Hey Bernay." Yeah. Best, best word ever.

• 24:12Trevor Noah?

  I got goosebumps when you said that.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, me too. And Phil, baby. Ride or die. I'm dying. It doesn't need options, she's bitten death. Inside.

• 24:24Trevor Noah?

  I've never had anyone actually respond to ride or die with options. I'll die.

• 24:33Trevor Noah?

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• 25:18Trevor Noah?

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• 26:03Trevor Noah?

  And that's what I've really enjoyed about Quince. One of my favorite things is their Pima Cotton Lux Touch T-shirts. And it's become one of those pieces I keep reaching for. The cotton has this really smooth, premium feel to it. The fit is great and it just lays really nicely. And I think that's what you sometimes take for granted with simple clothes. When they're done really well, they become the foundation of an entire outfit. You can throw on a jacket, a sweater, whatever you want, but everything works because you started with the right thing. That's what I like about Quince. It feels premium without feeling like you're trying too hard. It's effortless. So find your next fall favorites at Quince.

• 26:44Trevor Noah?

  Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. Hello over there. Oh, and if Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was What Now with Trevor Noah. It's the best way to support the show.

• 27:08Speaker 03

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• 27:38Trevor Noah?

  So I want to know, like, going back to sort of the way we started this is when people like take you seriously, when people, is there a way, because I don't know, when, when did you like become Brene Brown? And what I mean by that is you're Brene Brown, but then at some point, you become Brene Brown, you're not just Brene, you're not Ms. Brown, you're Brene Brown. And people, Brene, Brene Brown, Brene Brown, Brene Brown, then you're in an airport, so Brene Brown, okay, Brene Brown, my life, Brene Brown. And then a company leader, Brene Brown, Brene Brown, Brene Brown. I'd love to know like when that happened and how weird that was for your life, because it fascinates me because of the thing we're talking about, right? You know, an athlete is somebody who plays the sport that they

• 28:23Trevor Noah?

  play. And then we are shocked in society when they do anything human outside of what they do. Does that make sense?

• 28:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:32Trevor Noah?

  Spotted, NBA superstar drunk at a party. And you're like, why is that a thing?

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Why is that a thing?

• 28:38Trevor Noah?

  Because we only see them in one space. We only see them in one world. We now, we now make them one idea. You are, you are a fixed metastasized idea of a human being. And anything beyond that is wrong.

• 28:52Speaker 00

  Can't be you.

• 28:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 28:52Speaker 00

  And also can't be you.

• 28:53Trevor Noah?

  No, it can't be.

• 28:54Speaker 00

  I think the minute that happens, I don't, let me think about another word. I wish there was another word for dehumanizing that wasn't dehumanizing. Because I want to save dehumanizing for the really big catastrophic trauma.

• 29:08Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, I hear what you're saying.

• 29:09Speaker 00

  But I wish there was a word that was like reductive, like.

• 29:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's reductive, it's flattening.

• 29:14Speaker 00

  It's flattening, yeah. And so I think, oh, yeah, no, I get that. I don't know, whenever I, whenever I became that thing that you're talking about, um, was really shocking for me. Because.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  When you are a public person, this is what my therapist has taught me, and I think it's been helpful. When you're a public person, you become like a screen on which shit is projected from other, you know, you become the screen and people project all their shit on you. And so if I say something like, um, if I, if I say something on social about ICE, and then the next thing I know, I'll get a picture of all my books on fire in someone's backyard. And they'll say, um, you, you know, it's, it's, they think they know me to the point that there's any dimension of me. Yes. That's not aligned with who they want me to be or who they think I need to be in order to have been helpful to them.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  Then they, it's like a solid, it's actually weird. It's actually like betrayal. They feel betrayed. Yes. So they burn my books in their backyard and they say, you know, fuck you. I hope you die. I hope your family dies. I can't, you know, my daughter, you know, our family went through this thing and you were so helpful. And now you, you know, you've changed. And I'm like, I, I don't think I've ever written a book that if you really read it, not for what you needed, but for who I am, you would never be surprised by anything I said or posted. Huh. Ever. You would never, if you, if you had not squeezed the life out of me to pluck from me what you need, you would never be surprised. Like I, I'm, I'm, you know, I got arrested in a protest for the first time when I was 16.

• 31:02Speaker 00

  Like this is, this is not new for me. Right. And so, and I think it's happened both the far right and I think the far left. Oh, definitely. Yeah. The far left is, you know, um, that one was harder for me because I had a lot of identity tied up in that. And so, but I, I, when I became that thing,

• 31:24Speaker 00

  I just really had to, I had to go away for a year or two. Really? Oh, yeah. For, oh, for sure. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then I had to think, um, do I want to stay away? Cause I really love this more pickleball. Yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  But then I thought,

• 31:42Speaker 00

  let's see if I can do it another way and then choose from a place other than fear if I want to go away. Cause right now I'm running. I'm not walking, I'm not walking towards something I want. I'm running from something that I'm, I'm afraid of. Yeah. So now I'm in, I'm in that, I'm in that decision-making thing right now.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  What do you mean?

• 32:00Trevor Noah?

  I I know I know exactly what you mean.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  I get it.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  Do you get it?

• 32:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I I think we all do.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Because with with proximity, you get a clearer view of if I gave the person what they really wanted, does it actually change their life? So if someone says, I wish you would die and go away, and you do go away, you look back and you go, if I I was away, what really changed? But then you go from being away, I don't like being away. Because you've let them choose for you.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  I I have let them choose for me, for sure.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  I've I've been in that space where there was something I couldn't confront, really. And I would listen to what people were saying, which was an idea that they had about me, the the thing that you spoke about. Of once they've made you the person that they think you are, and you stray a little bit because of what news say or an ex says about you, and you start believing it, and then you go, let me be away so there's nothing to talk about.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  But then you go, I'm still living while being away. Right? I'm still living while being away.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  That's the hardest part.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm here still.

• 32:56Speaker 00

  I'm still here.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't delete myself. I've deleted myself from your existence, right? But I'm still here. Then you go, okay, then I decided to live loudly and say, and it was on one of the episodes that we first did together, where I would say all the things that people were always misconstruing about me, and things that were true about me, that were deeply hurtful, that I went through. Then I felt so liberated because I felt like I was actually saying it from a point of honesty, not from a point of defending myself.

• 33:24Speaker 00

  Oh, God, yeah.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  That's the worst part.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  That's the wor- I mean, it is, and then, because it's like, oh, betray yourself last.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:32Speaker 00

  Like, whoo, you know?

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, because at some point, when you're defending yourself, you're gonna lie about yourself. You have to. At some point, you're like, and then that thing happened. Yeah, but I know why that thing happened, and you keep going back and back and back in the real roles for further, further, further, until you go, I can't go anymore. But when you're telling the truth, it's quicker, it's better, and it's liberating. It's like the deep sigh that I felt after we did that episode. That episode was long, it was like three hours, because we had hung out before, and then we did the episode, and we hung out after, and the relief I felt of knowing that I said what I wanted to say, and I didn't care, because I've experienced the worst from people who say, this is who you are, and this is what you did, and da, da, da, da, da. And I gave them the thing that they wanted, I went away. But I told the truth, and I said, I'm not going anywhere.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  Okay, this is so powerful. Can I ask you a question? So.

• 34:27Speaker 00

  When the people are thinking, when you think about the people, one thing that you said that I have a question about is who people think I am. Do you think it's who people think you are? Or do you think it's who people need you to be? In order to work out their own shit? In order to, you know, feel better about themselves? Is it really, is the struggle really about who people think we are? Or is it really about who people really need me to be?

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, do you know what I mean? Because if it's about who people think we are.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:04Speaker 00

  I spent a lot of time trying to work to change that. Oh, no, like, let me go in the comments and say, oh, actually, that's not true. That, you know, but then I realized, well, this is a fucking losing battle because this is not about who people think I am. This is about who people need me to be. People need me to be this.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:23Speaker 00

  Because if I'm not this, it's confronting to them in a way that's uncomfortable.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think one of the, that's so powerful. I think one of the most unfair thing that people can ask from other people is not honesty, is not reliability, is consistency. As a human, I can't guarantee that I'm going to be consistent in anything. In liking you as a partner, in being consistent at my job, or loving the job the same way again, or walking the same path. I cannot promise that I'm going to be consistent. But what I can promise is I'm going to do it from a place of love. So whatever it is that I change in my ways that would make someone go, you're not the same person anymore. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm not doing it to hurt you. I'm not doing it to hurt myself. I can promise you now that I'm not going to be consistent in this, but I'll try to do it from a place of love. And that's what I've had to do.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  And I've had this conversation with my daughter. And I said, there's things that we used to do together, not going to be consistent with. You'll look at it and go, hmm, we used to do this consistently, and now you're not doing it anymore? And I'm like, yeah, whatever change happened and whatever path I chose to be consistent on and venture on, I'm doing it from a place of love. But I realized that I couldn't be this reliable, consistent person to everyone because it was all small little roles that everyone assigned. And when I strayed a little bit and everyone go, huh, what are you doing?

• 36:45Trevor Noah?

  So.

• 36:47Speaker 00

  It's really wow.

• 36:49Trevor Noah?

  I I find.

• 36:52Trevor Noah?

  I find one of the more fascinating aspects of life is that.

• 36:57Trevor Noah?

  We can all solve a Rubik's Cube using completely different techniques. At the end, we we always, you know, most people end up in the same place. But you find we all got there in different ways. So somebody figured out like a trick to align the things in one direction. Other people just kept moving the pieces around until they got like all the lines. Someone just went, I'm gonna take the colors off completely.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  I'm gonna peel the stickers off. Line them up and put them back on.

• 37:26Trevor Noah?

  So some people, but but but the point is, we're all trying to get to the same place.

• 37:32Trevor Noah?

  What I'm genuinely eternally grateful for, even in this conversation we're having here is. I had one of these stranger interactions with people online. Because I I didn't, I never engaged with the comments section. But I would engage with the commenters in the section.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Like a DM or something?

• 37:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 37:54Trevor Noah?

  And I've told you this story before, but like when I was very early on starting The Daily Show. People were just like, this person shouldn't be here. We hate him already. He's terrible. He can't say, he doesn't say women properly. Because in South Africa, we we say like, when we're talking about like, we say women. That's plural for, but Americans say women.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:15Trevor Noah?

  But we say, we pronounce the O more, you know, and people are like, can't even say the word women properly. And it was like this whole thing, but it was everything, right? And then there was, there was one commenter who was more prominent than others in the mix. And I DM'd him and I was genuine, because I was new to this. I went, hey. Why do you hate me so much? And I'll never forget, there's a guy from Canada, and he went, his response, it was actually beautifully effusive. He was like, hey Trev, hey buddy, I don't hate you at all. Said, I, I'm just joining in with what everyone's saying and it's fun and we're piling in. And he, he wrote it out. I could probably still find it in my DMs. He wrote it out.

• 38:54Trevor Noah?

  And can I tell you, I'm eternally grateful to him because he was honest enough to be aware of what was actually happening. Cause someone might be like, you know why, or they, they try and like, put it back on you. He was like, oh yeah, you've done nothing wrong. We're a mob and as a mob, we're coming for you. It's a lot of fun. And this is what the internet does. Welcome to the internet, buddy. And he was like, uh, just for, for, for the record, I think you're very funny. I do think you're gonna fail on the daily show. But I think you're very funny and I wish you the best of luck. And I, I just went, wha- wha- what is, what is happening here? And, and I, I, I know this sounds crazy, but just that interaction gave me a third way to think of it. It went, I went, it is not that the person, people think I'm this way.

• 39:38Trevor Noah?

  It is not even that they need me to be this way.

• 39:43Trevor Noah?

  I have just happened to step into the spot where somebody was about to drop a bucket of water.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  You happened.

• 39:51Trevor Noah?

  Does that make sense?

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, you happened into the spot. Yeah, the right spot.

• 39:54Trevor Noah?

  So the way I started thinking of it is I went everywhere, all the time in our lives as people. We have buckets that we're filling with water and that, that water is whatever emotions they may be. We've got a bucket of love, we've got a bucket of anger, we've got a bucket of hate, we've got a bucket of disdain, whatever these things are.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Mine are water balloons.

• 40:12Trevor Noah?

  You're the water balloons. I like that. You are a water balloon kinda guy.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Accuracy.

• 40:16Trevor Noah?

  So.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  I can already see it.

• 40:17Trevor Noah?

  We're, so we're filling them up, we're filling them up, we're filling them up. Or they're being filled up, they're being filled up. And, and, and if you're not aware of it, you know, they, they, they get full, they get full. And then at some point you tip it out. Whoever's there when the tipping happens gets all of it. They just get all of it. And and this person made me realize sometimes we make it seem like the bucket is being tipped on us.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  It's just being tipped when we're there.

• 40:43Trevor Noah?

  It's just being tipped and you are perfectly positioned for the tipping to happen. And so I find sometimes it happens in life. A parent will fill up their bucket with, you know.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  Oh, for sure.

• 40:56Trevor Noah?

  You know, it's like all the things that frustrate them first and work and this and and then the kid will be there at the moment that they're tipping the bucket.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  Discharge.

• 41:03Trevor Noah?

  You little shit, all the shit, I just shit. And then the kid's like, oh, man. Wow.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  I'm drenched in hate.

• 41:11Trevor Noah?

  I don't think I deserve this much water for what I did.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  Right.

• 41:16Trevor Noah?

  And now you the tipper and you're going, ah, I mean, the same thing happens on the internet, though, is you, when you open the app on a day. And your bucket is filled in a certain way, you will find the thing to tip into because it's there already.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:30Trevor Noah?

  So if you're in a good mood, you'll be shocked at how quickly you scroll past the bad stories. And when you're in like a rage, you know, and you open that app and you're gonna find and then you go like, you know what? Take this bucket. Here you go. How dare you study law, Kim Kardashian? Who the hell do you think you are? Why did that make you angry?

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:49Trevor Noah?

  Genuinely, what are you angry about?

• 41:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:51Trevor Noah?

  What, what, what?

• 41:52Speaker 00

  Right, right, right.

• 41:52Trevor Noah?

  What offended you so much? She thinks she can go and be a lawyer? But why, why are you angry?

• 42:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:00Trevor Noah?

  What are you actually angry about?

• 42:03Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 42:03Trevor Noah?

  Especially when it's like a complete random person on the other side of the globe. And so what it taught me was. And maybe there's like a component of spiritualism about it was genuinely, I'll go like, oh, it's it's not about you. But like in a really wonderful way.

• 42:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:19Trevor Noah?

  I was like, it's not, it's just not about you.

• 42:21Speaker 00

  It's really not, yeah.

• 42:22Trevor Noah?

  It's not about you. It's not about you.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  But maybe, maybe that's the thing.

• 42:25Trevor Noah?

  It's not about you.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  Outrage offers us a chance to be mean without taking responsibility.

• 42:30Trevor Noah?

  Definitely.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, why? But why not?

• 42:33Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Explain, no, you can see it yourself.

• 42:36Trevor Noah?

  I also think we need it, though.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Being outraged?

• 42:38Trevor Noah?

  Yes, I think, I think in society, this is why I love sports. And this is why I think sports is one of the most important things society has.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Same.

• 42:47Trevor Noah?

  I, I, it's the, it's the reason I believe people should go to stadiums. I, that's why I think tickets should stay cheap. They should be affordable, so people can go.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 42:56Trevor Noah?

  I believe that there should be multitudes of, you know why? Because it is a place where it is appropriate for you to hate. And you let that hate out. God, kill you, I get that guy off the field, ah, you piece of shit, you're right. And you can then be like, alright, let's go home, Billy. Come on, come on, boys.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  I've never looked at it like that.

• 43:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, because it's, we, we, we are getting fewer and fewer spaces and places in society where we can tip out our buckets i- in a, in a safe, you know, and, and acceptable way. When, when can you tip off your bucket? You know, like, you, like, you can't even fight as kids anymore, so you can't tip off that bucket. So when does that happen? It, it can't. When can you swear at somebody? You can't, you can't, so you can't tip that bucket. Uh, when can you, you, and if you can't, I feel like we just become more and more and more repressed. The feeling you get, you've seen me when I, if I watch a Liverpool game with Ryan, and Ryan's wife will always say, she'll be like, why do you do this to yourself? And I go, because it's amazing.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:54Trevor Noah?

  I get to ride a roller coaster of emotion. I get to swear, I get to be angry, I get to be joyful, I get, what a, in ninety minutes, I get to ride a wave of emotions.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:04Trevor Noah?

  That, if we're honest, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't really affect me. I think that's a beautiful thing in life. I think it's, I think it's worth preserving for people.

• 44:16Trevor Noah?

  But now, we have fewer and fewer avenues for it. And one of the last ones is social media, where people anonymously can just come and be like.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Outrage.

• 44:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Anger. Sports fans usually, when their team wins, they go, we won.

• 44:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  And when the team loses, they go, we lost.

• 44:31Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  What's up with that? Ungenapi.

• 44:36Trevor Noah?

  I'll tell you where Singenagupi.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Singenapi means where do you enter.

• 44:40Trevor Noah?

  How do you enter into it?

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, because why, why did we lose?

• 44:43Trevor Noah?

  That's

• 44:45Speaker 00

  Twelfth man.

• 44:46Trevor Noah?

  Can I tell you? That's another reason I love sports.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're there.

• 44:51Trevor Noah?

  We take for granted.

• 44:52Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, we're there. Wait, what is Anfield without the fans? What's UT football without fans?

• 44:58Speaker 02

  Man phenomena is a real thing.

• 45:00Trevor Noah?

  Hundred percent.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  You're experiencing all the emotions.

• 45:02Speaker 00

  Oh, I work with a lot of sports teams. Yeah, no, you, you. Yeah, I mean, you have to, the twelfth man is such a real thing that if you're playing, if you're playing a an opponent that has a strong twelfth man element, I would say twelfth person because I'm a women's sports person too, but twelfth person, let's say twelfth man, fucking hell, I can't, I don't know, twelfth man, this is what I mean.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Financial Times article.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Fuck the twelfth man. By twelfth man. The man is.

• 45:37Speaker 00

  Twelfth person.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  Twelfth person is.

• 45:39Trevor Noah?

  You know, can I tell you the funniest thing about that? This is like just perspective to that. So my mom lives the most offline existence of most human beings I know. She almost lives apart from time for the most part, right? And sometimes I like to engage my mom with things that current society is like dealing with. Just to see how she processes it almost from an off the grid perspective.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  Right, right, right.

• 46:03Trevor Noah?

  Right?

• 46:04Speaker 00

  The cabin in the woods.

• 46:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, completely. And I'll just be like, hey, what do you think about? And one of my, my favorite ones was asking her about this and I said, um, you know, I'll say this like I'll poke her, but not in like an agitating way, but I'll be like, oh, should we not also say, um, you know, because it's person, because it, and then my mom goes, she, she literally said to me, she went, not even fighting, she's like, uh, what do you, what do you mean?

• 46:29Trevor Noah?

  The man covers everyone. Then I'm like, no, it doesn't. Fireman. And then she's like, spell woman for me. And then I was like, W O M A N. She's like, what's at the end of it? She's like, we're using the abbreviation for everyone. She's like, I've never thought of it like that. She's like, yeah, fireman is like, because it's like human, so I'm taking all of this. And she's like, woman, human, man. She's like, it's all.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  We've just gendered the last part.

• 46:52Trevor Noah?

  She was like, I, she's like, no, you were gender, I'm not. It's just the abbreviation.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  That's interesting.

• 46:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. And she was like, I, I don't know why there's a problem.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, the twelve men sounds better than twelve person, niche, eh, human.

• 47:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but it's also we've, it, it, for me, it just gave me a perspective that I didn't have.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:13Trevor Noah?

  Where I went, huh. Hu- human, human. And my mom genuinely was processing it from that lens. She was going the end of, if you want to make. If there's a dog that fights fire, we'll call it a fire dog. If there's a human that fights fire, we'll call it a fire man. That's how she was doing it.

• 47:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:32Trevor Noah?

  She was going the end of hu- man.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  Species is at the end.

• 47:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, the species is the man part.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. The man is not gender.

• 47:39Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no. That's in her head. That's not how she was doing it. And I was like, damn, what a interesting way.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  That, that isn't, that linguistically is really interesting. I would say, when we make a dollar for the dollar, then I'll let go of the, the gender neutral. But until, while we're making the seventy four cents, I'm gonna be going twelfth person. Well, I don't give a shit whether it sounds good or not. And if it would have started twelfth person, it would sound normal now.

• 48:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:03Trevor Noah?

  But that's language. But that's language. Everything is gonna sound weird until it's normal.

• 48:07Speaker 00

  So, but the twelfth person, the, the, the, the, the stands are as a player is so significant that it changes the training weeks leading up to games where that phenomenon is the strongest. Um, I, I always show this great clip when I'm talking to leaders. I think it was Colorado going to play Oregon. And their stands are so nuts that for the week leading up to the training, they just put the Oregon fight song on huge stacks of speakers at the training and follow the players around. Because you can't hear, it's so demoralizing. You can't hear the play calls. Um, you know, when it's third down, I'm a, I'm a Longhorn fan, so University of Texas.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  Third down, it just says on the big thing, make noise. And we get so loud that they can't hear the play call. So they're probably going to, if they can't hear the play call, how fast or slow the pocket collapses around the quarterback will change. And that means they will probably try to run the ball instead of throw the ball. And if we're in like a short yardage situation, it just gets very complicated.

• 49:17Trevor Noah?

  Gets messy.

• 49:17Speaker 00

  It gets messy. So 100%. I mean, I think you saw that at the Derby. You know, Liverpool, you saw that it's just,

• 49:30Speaker 00

  it's very, if you love football, you can, you can watch people fighting back tears that are fans of the other team in Anfield. When, when they sing, you'll never walk alone.

• 49:39Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, no, it's something, it's, it's, man.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  It's magic.

• 49:43Trevor Noah?

  Have goosebumps.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  Goosebumps have goosebumps. It's like pickleball.

• 49:46Trevor Noah?

  You can't even, you can't even, you know, you know who said it the other day, actually, was, um, they asked, um,

• 49:51Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 49:52Trevor Noah?

  They asked, uh, Luis Enrique, the coach of PSG.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  PSG.

• 49:56Trevor Noah?

  They said, hey, we, we read a story that you snuck into a Liverpool match right after you retired from playing football, you came and you watched the, and then first he was taken aback, then he's like, oh, he's like, who, who asked that question? And then he's like, that's good research. And then he's like, yeah, I just wanted to come to Liverpool to, to, to experience it. And he says, oh, he's like, it's not just a stadium. He says it was, he's like, you feel the fans, you feel.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  It's a cathedral.

• 50:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it, it, it makes the people feel diff. I've seen teams lose because the fans got nervous.

• 50:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:28Trevor Noah?

  The fans start being like,

• 50:31Trevor Noah?

  and then the players are like, yo, stop that, man, just, you know, you feel that on stage as a comedian. But you see. Think about, there's sometimes you're telling a joke and there's an audience that is completely comfortable and with you. You'll, you'll go to the craziest places with that joke.

• 50:44Speaker 00

  Of course, yeah.

• 50:44Trevor Noah?

  And then sometimes there's audiences where as soon as you, you, you go down a, then they're like, oh, boy, Eugene. Yeah, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. We're gonna lose our jobs, Eugene. And then you go, damn, if I go, I'm going alone. Do I wanna go alone? But when an audience is with you, that's when, I mean,

• 51:01Speaker 02

  You're slow.

• 51:02Trevor Noah?

  Oh, you make magic that you couldn't make alone.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  You guys are shifting my perspective and it's, I know it's a sports analogy, but now I'm starting to get a little bit about how you described the 12 person. It's, I've always looked at sports as exclusive instead of inclusive. So I've never, I've never looked from the field to the crowd, thinking this thing is bringing them together. They're having a hot dog, they're meeting up, they're dressed the same. They agree on what the play should be. I've always looked at, why do those people get to do what they like? And the rest of them have to watch them.

• 51:34Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 51:35Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 51:35Trevor Noah?

  That's how you've seen it.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  I've always seen it like that.

• 51:37Trevor Noah?

  Oh, no.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  So I've never understood.

• 51:38Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Why, why, why would everyone come to watch these people? Few people doing what they like? And then the rest of them don't have the opportunity to do what they like? I've always looked at it as exclusive instead of inclusive.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  So this is really interesting because, okay. I think I disagree with some of the things you said from a, from a different perspective.

• 52:03Trevor Noah?

  Do it.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 52:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  Um, so I'm gonna go back because there, there were so many things that I'm gonna, um, we, when we, we, we, I interviewed you at a conference, like, was it a year and a half, two years ago?

• 52:18Trevor Noah?

  Probably, yeah.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. I've not stopped thinking about that conversation and I really have beef with you on one of the things you said because it really changed my worldview.

• 52:25Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I love it.

• 52:26Speaker 00

  It really pissed me off.

• 52:27Trevor Noah?

  Let's do it.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  Um, but so that, so I don't wanna leave with this unfinished business this time. So, so one.

• 52:34Trevor Noah?

  That's what we're gonna, that's what we're gonna call this episode. Brene Brown, unfinished business. That's what we're gonna call it.

• 52:40Speaker 00

  I'm gonna need you in some seven inch shorts.

• 52:41Trevor Noah?

  I'm in.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  If you're, if you're gonna be with me, I want some short shorts, baby. I want like, I want like Larry Bird, five inch. Yeah, okay. Um, so I, I don't know that I disagree with you, but I'm trying to make sense of things. So one.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  The collective bucket is full and you're in the right place at the wrong time and you're going to catch the stuff flowing from the bucket, whether it's hate, sometimes it's love, sometimes you're the right place to catch the love. Okay. So I absolutely experienced that and like I had to fight, I had to fight not crying when you were talking about it because I have been in the exact right place at the exact wrong time and really caught rage, just buckets and buckets and buckets of rage. So I think that's true. The other thing that is weird that I've never had a conversation about in my life, because I didn't want to admit to my team, not even want to admit

• 53:44Speaker 00

  to my therapist, that I have DM'd a couple of people on occasion and said, man, it's really hard to hear that you think this about me. And I'm curious about, can you help me understand what you're basing that on? Like where, what, how did that happen? I want to know. And it's always been like, oh, my God, Brene Brown is DMing me. And then it's like they share their screenshot and I love her and she really, you know, and then I've never once had someone come back to me with, never once, I've only probably done it so small sample size, four or five times, but it's always been kind and you know, and so that's weird.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  The thing that I would say about the inclusive versus exclusive and the collective dumping of emotion is one thing that we're, we haven't talked about yet that I think is neurobiologically, I know is neurobiologically hardwired, is belonging.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 54:47Speaker 00

  And so.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  Genuine belonging is very, very difficult because belonging doesn't ask us to fundamentally change who we are. It requires that we be who we are. So if I'm, if y'all are friends and I'm at a, you know, I can't get a brief from my team on y'all and know exactly what to say. Because then I'm not being myself. And if you like me for that, I know it's fraught.

• 55:17Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 55:18Speaker 00

  Because the second I'm myself, then I'm doomed. Genuine belonging really requires the capacity for people to stand on their own and be alone. And if you can stand on your own and be alone and then be yourself, and then there's real connection. So genuine belonging is tough. One of the fastest neuro hacks to belonging is collective schadenfreude.

• 55:44Trevor Noah?

  No ways.

• 55:45Speaker 00

  That is, that is one of the, that is, it gives us full body feelings of belonging.

• 55:51Trevor Noah?

  No ways.

• 55:52Speaker 00

  We are going to connect mutually in watching this person fall. And it gives us all kinds of goosebumps. It gives us all kinds of sense of we're together. And what I say is, I don't really know you, but our connection, the three of us, is we hate the same people.

• 56:10Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  We're at a public square for hanging.

• 56:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're, we're at the public square for hanging. And, and there's a couple of things that are happening in that public square at the moment. One, we're gathered. One, there's a ton of adrenaline. Two, we're very limbic in the part of our mind that's very fight, flight, you know. We're also mitigating each other's shame.

• 56:34Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  About enjoying this.

• 56:37Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm. That's what a mob, you said this with firing squad.

• 56:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. We're mitigating each other's shame. So the collective schadenfreude about watching someone, especially who's got celebrity or a platform fail, is it's not lasting or meaningful. It's kind of like you're, you're hardwiring it. I mean, hotwiring it like you hotwire a car if you're stealing it, right? But it's there. So that's one thing I would say is we, I don't think we can forget the counterfeit connection we get from collective schadenfreude. And in a world where so many people are in pain and need

• 57:14Speaker 00

  Don't have what it takes to forge real connection because we're so lonely right now. It's very, it's a, it's a really, it's a surefire way to get it. It's just absolutely a Faustian bargain, right?

• 57:27Speaker 02

  We've never been so alone.

• 57:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  In a room full of people.

• 57:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  Open your phone, dozens of people.

• 57:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  So you're right, we've never been so alone.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  Right. And so we're so alone, so we are so, and again,

• 57:42Speaker 00

  neurobiologically hardwired for connection and the absence of connection. There is always 100% of the time suffering. And so we're suffering. And so to be with a group of people, even in the comment section, for it's, it's a, it's a hit. It's just a hit of connection really quickly.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  It is corrosive and damaging over time because we know it's not real, but it can give us something quick. So I would say we should really think about the collective schadenfreude and need for belonging that we're getting.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  The second thing I would say is one of the things that worries me a little bit about,

• 58:20Speaker 00

  and I get criticized for this a lot, and I think some of the criticism has been helpful because, I mean, if, when I wrote Strong Ground, it probably has the last, probably the last leadership book I'll ever write. And it came out last year. It probably has 30 sports benefours in it, like chapters built. I mean, there's a chapter called the tush push.

• 58:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:38Speaker 00

  There's a, you know, it's just, it's based on, because I think sport is leadership theatre.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  It's everything.

• 58:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, right.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  I think it's life theatre.

• 58:47Speaker 00

  It's life, oh, it's life theatre. It really is. And so the one thing I would say is dangerous is

• 58:54Speaker 00

  us collectively coming together to find a place to, to empty our rage bucket, for me, is the best of sport and why sometimes I find it indefensible and the worst of sport.

• 59:08Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  So we know that the busiest day of the year for domestic violence hotlines is Super Bowl Sunday.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  I did not know that.

• 59:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. We know what more women are beat by male partners on Super Bowl Sunday.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  Are you being serious?

• 59:21Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. We know that, and I'm, I'm talking about this honestly because I I came from kind of a baller family. We were athletes. My dad played football in college. And but I also grew up with a very complex father who Sundays were not safe in our house.

• 59:42Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  Based on how the games went. Because we weren't, you know, American, we grew up with NFL was like our premier league, right?

• 59:48Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 59:49Speaker 00

  So I would also say that giving ourselves permission to feel hate or rage in sport is really dangerous. So right now, what I'm seeing with with college football teams that I work with are, and I hate to be the downer in this, but I think it's a really important conversation. The realist, yes.

• 1:00:14Trevor Noah?

  The real in this, it's not even down.

• 1:00:16Speaker 00

  Are these 18 to 22 year old kids.

• 1:00:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:18Speaker 00

  That are playing college football that are, and we'll get into a really hard topic here, that are getting death threats every day because betting has become such a problem.

• 1:00:33Trevor Noah?

  It's a scourge.

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  It's a scourge, right. And fuck the people who do it.

• 1:00:36Trevor Noah?

  No, no, it's a scourge.

• 1:00:37Speaker 00

  And that market to young boys who are lonely and need the, you know, the hit.

• 1:00:44Speaker 00

  So these football players, many of whom have trained and worked their whole lives, for a lot of them, it's their way out, it's their way to a college education, are getting, you know, really death threats every day that, hey, your fumble cost me my parlay.

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  And so sometimes, you know, as a UT football huge fan, season ticket holder, sometimes I have to put myself in a trance to get through a game when I'm seeing the, you know, 240 pound guy yelling at the 19 year old kid.

• 1:01:13Trevor Noah?

  For getting his a kid.

• 1:01:14Speaker 00

  That you're a loser and your ass out there. And, you know, and I'm like, these are kids. Like, it's, I think sports is the best of us, but I also think it's the worst of us.

• 1:01:27Trevor Noah?

  I agree completely.

• 1:01:28Speaker 00

  Look at the racism in European football. Like, I mean, just, so.

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  I think.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  I think people should take more accountability for their buckets.

• 1:01:47Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that I completely agree with.

• 1:01:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:49Trevor Noah?

  No, what I was referring to is the person who has been drenched. I was, you know, I was talking about like

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:57Trevor Noah?

  As a, we've all.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  A person who catches it.

• 1:01:59Trevor Noah?

  The person who catches it, you've experienced it in your life. You've been a child. You have been a spouse or a partner. You've been an employee. You've been a citizen. You've been a bystander.

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:10Trevor Noah?

  Whatever it is, you've been somebody who has experienced a drenching. And all I was referring to is the thing that helps me, even though the drenching doesn't necessarily change, is just trying to remember that that bucket

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  Could have hit anyone.

• 1:02:27Trevor Noah?

  Could have hit anyone. And it just makes, it helps me remember it because I think sometimes what happens in life.

• 1:02:33Speaker 00

  Really interesting.

• 1:02:33Trevor Noah?

  What sometimes happens in life is we, without knowing it, ask ourselves or blame ourselves or question ourselves or infer anything about ourselves because the thing happened.

• 1:02:48Speaker 00

  What did I do to bring this on?

• 1:02:50Trevor Noah?

  Anything. Ah, man, I wish I hadn't crossed the street that day. I shouldn't have been walking. I shouldn't. You know, because we've been raised in many worlds, you know, depending on your culture as well. So many of us have been told that we are the masters of our universe. That when it rains, it's raining on me. I shouldn't have been, it's like. But what this, that's why I say it's a little, it's, some of it is almost a little spiritual. Because when I was, when I was in Bhutan and there were monks who articulated it way better than I had ever been able to like fumble through it. They sort of made me realize, they were like, oh, no, no, no, no. The thing is not happening to you in that way. You are there, so it is, it is happening. You know, and, and, and so we think of.

• 1:03:33Speaker 00

  Oh, I got chills.

• 1:03:34Trevor Noah?

  We always think of every. Everything in the world focused on us like it's got a point of view. We are at the center of it. We struggle to consider the possibility that we are on the periphery of anything.

• 1:03:47Speaker 02

  That's why I said when the extraction happened, when I stepped back, I was like, these things are still happening.

• 1:03:52Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's what I mean. That's what I mean. So, so to to come back to it. I love what you're saying because that thing. That's one of the biggest things that we always have to work on in a society is going, hey. Just because your bucket got full doesn't mean that now, you you know what I mean? It's the same. We do it with trash, funny enough, in real life. We go like, just because your trash is full, you can't just go dump it in the streets.

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  Find a place.

• 1:04:18Trevor Noah?

  There's a legal way to go and get rid of your trash. There's a correct way that society has determined. You cannot just dump your, no, no, no, no, no. Just because your toilet is full. Doesn't mean you can like go pour it in the hallway of your apartment building.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Oh, well.

• 1:04:33Trevor Noah?

  But there's, you get what I'm saying, there's, there's rules about this.

• 1:04:36Speaker 00

  But where, where do you think, where do you think?

• 1:04:39Trevor Noah?

  What I'm saying is I wish in society, to your point, actually, I wish we spent more time. Discussing and trying to figure out the emotional spaces for dumping, the emo, like.

• 1:04:51Trevor Noah?

  Because we, we forget that nobody teaches us these things. Nobody teaches anybody these things unless you really go out and look for it.

• 1:04:59Speaker 00

  Not the emotional offloading. No one, no one.

• 1:05:01Trevor Noah?

  No one teaches you these things, but, but you do know, even a child is taught how to throw their trash away. Hey, hey, hey, you don't, you don't put that on the ground. You go and you put it inside the trash. No, no, no, no, we don't throw it out the window. We go and we put that, you don't throw it at another person. We're going. And just at a very young age, you learn that the trash you have is meant to go into that vessel over there. In Japan, when I was there, it was even a higher level.

• 1:05:25Speaker 00

  That, that's not.

• 1:05:25Trevor Noah?

  They were like, no, no, you keep your trash. And you take it home with you and then you deal, you don't, there's no one who's gonna come fetch bins in the street.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  But they're the same people that disappear into a forest and never come out.

• 1:05:36Trevor Noah?

  So now, it is, but it is that, actually, it's, it's that extreme. They've gone like one extreme, you know? So what I'm saying, I wish we had exactly your sentence. I wish we had more of learning and teaching.

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Each other, how to throw our emotional trash away in a bin and not at a person and not on the floor and not, does it make sense?

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  It totally makes sense.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  That's the accountability to what you're saying.

• 1:05:57Speaker 00

  I want, so that's why, okay, yes, that's why I think sports could be a dangerous place to do it because depending on how dirty your trash is.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Speaker 00

  It it still can be dangerous.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  What's the composting plan? Like what, like, so, so I could say easily, but this is not, this is not accessible for everyone. I could say I have tons of bins full of shit.

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  So a therapy has, therapy has, and coaching has taught me to compost.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  My stuff, but that's not accessible to everyone.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  I, I know. Yeah, I think, I think I figured this out and I was having a conversation this week and I said that composting plant for that discourse is healthy disagreeability with people that you like.

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do agree with that. Oh, my God, that's good. Say that again.

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  Healthy disagreeability with people that you like.

• 1:06:43Speaker 00

  Okay, wait a second.

• 1:06:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:06:47Speaker 00

  And I'm gonna compost it because I'm gonna have healthy.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  Disagreeability.

• 1:06:50Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  With someone that I like.

• 1:06:52Speaker 00

  Is it someone you like or is it someone you trust?

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  Both. It could be someone I love, someone I like, someone I trust.

• 1:06:58Trevor Noah?

  Essentially, fundamentally, it's get along with.

• 1:07:00Speaker 02

  Yes, I do know, I do know the one thing that could, that scares me the most that you would have, you said at the beginning was belonging. I know that's not threatened.

• 1:07:09Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:09Speaker 02

  By us not agreeing.

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  It's not threatened.

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  But that is so rare.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  I'm never gonna not belong here anymore just because we had this healthy disagree, the fact that you like Liverpool and I like nothing is healthy. Because it's a disagreeability that's healthy. It doesn't threaten the way you think of me.

• 1:07:29Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  I will never not belong here anymore in this friendship. So we can, so I'm training that muscle and I'm learning a little bit of rejection here and a little bit of being wrong here and sometimes giving in. Because I've learned that sometimes in those healthy disagreeabilities, people go, oh, I see.

• 1:07:45Speaker 00

  Okay, I am having such a moment. I, I do love you even though, and we'll go to Anfield after pickleball.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  You will never walk alone.

• 1:07:53Speaker 00

  Wait, he looked me dead ass, he looked me dead ass in the eye and said that like you meant it. Um, I got goosebumps when you said it. Thank you. Walk on. Yeah, okay.

• 1:08:07Speaker 00

  What is he doing?

• 1:08:07Trevor Noah?

  He's such a troll.

• 1:08:08Speaker 00

  He's such a troll.

• 1:08:10Trevor Noah?

  He knows exactly, he knows exactly. To be, to be a, to be an excellent troll, you have to be willing to delve into the depths of the things that you wish to troll about. That's, that's Eugene's level of dedication. He'll learn players, coaches, games, everything, so that he can fully participate in the level of trolling that he needs to.

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I felt, I felt like you just did something where it's like, I'm like, hey, and they're like, oh, I'm bleeding.

• 1:08:38Speaker 00

  I, I just got shivved by like, like, yeah, but, but I didn't even feel it go in.

• 1:08:44Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, no, no, really gently.

• 1:08:46Speaker 00

  It's a smile.

• 1:08:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's the shivving versus the shanking.

• 1:08:53Speaker 00

  Okay, I am, I, okay, so what's so weird is-

• 1:08:56Trevor Noah?

  Let me sheath my shirt.

• 1:08:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, can you put that shit away? You're, yeah, this, yeah, yeah, okay, got it. And your five inch shorts.

• 1:09:07Speaker 00

  Okay, so, so I'm like, I'm, I'm connecting things that are like, maybe true, maybe not, let's just try it on. So you said something, when you listed all the things that are happening as we disagree, like, ooh, I'm, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm taking one to the chin, I'm giving one, I'm being forgiven, I'm forgiving, there's some grace, like that back and forth that happens, right? When you belong and you can really disagree.

• 1:09:39Speaker 00

  One of the things that I'm tying that to when you said, you know, we're not, kids are not fighting anymore, which is probably good that, you know, we're not like, you know, like to the, to the degree that like, when I was raised, where you, you-

• 1:09:51Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. There's degrees of everything, yeah.

• 1:09:53Speaker 00

  Right, exactly. But I will say, one of the things that's really, one of the things that's really coming up for me is the research.

• 1:10:02Speaker 00

  On the importance of play.

• 1:10:04Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:10:05Speaker 00

  And physical play.

• 1:10:06Trevor Noah?

  Uh huh.

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  And kind of shoving down play, uh, you know, I'm, I'm swinging from the bar and I kick you and then you've, you know, because one of the things it does, um, when we're young is play teaches us a lot about how to develop relationships in the context of learning, how to push, how to be pushed, how to forgive, how our choices actually impact other people and how to, we can wrestle and have fun and enjoy it. There's a line.

• 1:10:36Trevor Noah?

  Uh huh.

• 1:10:37Speaker 00

  Right? And we're, kids are not playing anymore. Kids are on screens. They're not playing anymore. So I think, I'm, I'm just curious about like,

• 1:10:50Speaker 00

  it, it, it goes back to even our conversation about sanitized, sanitized interviews or weaponized interviews. We just don't know how to get in there and shove around a little bit and become better human beings.

• 1:11:04Trevor Noah?

  But you even hear it in speech, sorry. Yeah, no, no, I was gonna say, so, so even with, you know, what I love is, is the, the framing that you're using there with the kids. I think we take for granted how,

• 1:11:18Trevor Noah?

  how adept kids are at actually understanding that play delineates from life.

• 1:11:25Trevor Noah?

  So if you remember being a kid, there are things that would happen on the playground or in a play setting that would hurt you, that would make you angry, that would make you happy, that whatever it was. But in a strange way, you knew that that wasn't your life.

• 1:11:41Speaker 00

  That's a hundred percent true.

• 1:11:42Trevor Noah?

  Does that make sense?

• 1:11:42Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:11:43Trevor Noah?

  So you, you could say with a kid, I mean, you're a father, but you could like say with a kid, you could go, what happened? And then it's like, oh, they were playing, don't push while you're playing, but there was this weird, there, there was this line where you sort of like knew that that happened in the play land.

• 1:11:58Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:11:59Trevor Noah?

  Even though it was real, but it happened in play land.

• 1:12:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:01Trevor Noah?

  And then you can now come back to normal life where it is not happening.

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, you hurt your knee doing.

• 1:12:06Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That thing happened there. The person pushed you there.

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  There.

• 1:12:10Speaker 00

  Context.

• 1:12:11Trevor Noah?

  And while it is still not. Acceptable.

• 1:12:14Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:15Trevor Noah?

  It is more acceptable that it happens there. So if a kid pushes you on the playground, when I, at least when I was growing up, they would deal with it differently to if a kid pushed you in class.

• 1:12:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:12:24Trevor Noah?

  Don't play rough.

• 1:12:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:12:26Trevor Noah?

  But in class, it was like, no, no, no, now you're fighting.

• 1:12:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:12:28Trevor Noah?

  You, this is full on.

• 1:12:28Speaker 00

  No, okay, I, I don't know where this is going, but this is so true. Okay, yes, that's true.

• 1:12:32Trevor Noah?

  But, but do you get what I'm saying?

• 1:12:32Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 1:12:33Trevor Noah?

  So what, what I'm.

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  The scar is real.

• 1:12:35Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  The bandage is real.

• 1:12:36Trevor Noah?

  But you go, but.

• 1:12:37Speaker 02

  But it happened there.

• 1:12:38Speaker 00

  In a context where it was normalized.

• 1:12:40Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:12:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:12:41Trevor Noah?

  And it was almost not real. That's, that's the main thing for me is that it was almost not real.

• 1:12:47Speaker 02

  Maybe that's where. Cause I'm starting to realize here, there's a pattern of

• 1:12:54Speaker 02

  the effects of things that we feel. Say, for example, you're in a relationship.

• 1:12:59Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  And then you are being vulnerable to this person.

• 1:13:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  And then they throw it back at you.

• 1:13:03Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  Later on.

• 1:13:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  They're like, no, it happened there.

• 1:13:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  When I was feeling this, but now you bring it here. So that scar is real, that pain is real, but it's at the wrong place. We're not at the playground, so you're not allowed to shove me. And then the fall won't be associated with play.

• 1:13:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's not.

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Yes, the fall now is real. Because now you've taken what should be happening there and it's happening here.

• 1:13:24Trevor Noah?

  So the best way I can, if I go back to sports, this, this is what I will say. One of the things I try to remind myself of is the fact that there are many things happening in the world that are merely magnifying glasses on a symptom, but they're not the cause. So where I'll go back on the sports thing is I'll go.

• 1:13:43Trevor Noah?

  It is sad to say, but it's probably true. I don't think domestic abuse changed because of sports.

• 1:13:50Trevor Noah?

  I don't know the numbers, but if I was, if I was to bet, I would say, I don't think that domestic abuse changed because of sports.

• 1:13:56Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:13:57Trevor Noah?

  I still go back to the bucket. I go, that man uses the sports to fill his buckets. Who's in the house with him? His wife and kids.

• 1:14:04Speaker 00

  And process rage.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:06Trevor Noah?

  But the buck, he use, so that sports game became the thing that like, all right, now I've got the excuse.

• 1:14:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  And justified Audrey.

• 1:14:13Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:14:14Trevor Noah?

  It's the excuse now. But the excuse would have come from anything and anywhere. And so I, I, that's, that's why. So may, maybe this, this, this will help, like what I, what I, what I love about it in the right ways. One of the things that has gone down in soccer, at least over the years. Racism has gone down. There's still many instances, but it's definitely gone down.

• 1:14:37Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 1:14:38Trevor Noah?

  Football and footballing. Another thing that's gone down is violence.

• 1:14:42Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 1:14:42Trevor Noah?

  Right?

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  So the hooligans?

• 1:14:44Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's really, really, it's really gone down. There's still definitely case of, but it's not what it used to be.

• 1:14:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:14:51Trevor Noah?

  And again, this is just me and my observation of the game. I think one of the things we take for granted in the sport, and I I'll show you why I, why I think this is important. Is I think it when athletes themselves saw and treated each other like humans beyond the, the uniforms. I think the teams and the, like the fans also started seeing that as a possibility. Subconsciously or consciously. And what I mean by that is.

• 1:15:21Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 1:15:23Trevor Noah?

  If your team is playing on the field and they go punch the other team. Something went wrong on the field and they start punching. I believe you are more likely to feel like it is apt for you to go and punch someone outside because they're wearing another uniform.

• 1:15:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:15:37Trevor Noah?

  That's what I believe.

• 1:15:37Speaker 02

  Right. If they do it first.

• 1:15:39Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:15:39Speaker 00

  Oh, I think violence is normalized then.

• 1:15:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you go like, you're like, this is what we need to do to the other.

• 1:15:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is normalized.

• 1:15:44Trevor Noah?

  Because my, because the people I look to. They do it. I will go outside and I, I too shall do it. But when you see them helping each other up, hugging, talking after the game, just like, like not having that thing.

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  To give the other person a breather.

• 1:16:00Trevor Noah?

  Sort of what happened in, in, was it one of those big WrestleMania's at Madison Square Garden where like, I think it was like, was it Bret Hart or I, I don't know who was breaking off. It might have been like, um, who's the guy with the kick again? What was his name? They say I'm sexy, Shawn Michaels. Yeah. When they were like, they were breaking off, remember?

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  What did you?

• 1:16:17Trevor Noah?

  I had to do the move to get.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  Distinctly gravitate to they say I'm.

• 1:16:21Trevor Noah?

  I thought it was the rest of the song. Sexy, I don't know how to.

• 1:16:25Speaker 02

  You see?

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  Cognitive bias.

• 1:16:29Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 1:16:29Speaker 02

  The world of science, we call that.

• 1:16:32Trevor Noah?

  Leave me alone. So.

• 1:16:33Speaker 00

  I, I, I'm like fascinated.

• 1:16:36Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no.

• 1:16:38Speaker 00

  About Wimbledon.

• 1:16:38Trevor Noah?

  No, I know it's a long explanation, but this is what I mean.

• 1:16:40Speaker 00

  No, I'm tracking.

• 1:16:41Trevor Noah?

  In that moment.

• 1:16:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:43Trevor Noah?

  What the wrestlers did was so, some wrestlers were breaking off to a different federation.

• 1:16:47Speaker 02

  It was like Liv and.

• 1:16:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  The PGA.

• 1:16:49Trevor Noah?

  And then on the night, they stopped in the middle of a fight. And they went and they hugged each other and they were like, I'm gonna miss you. And, but they were like, like enemies on the wrestling scene.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were the rivals.

• 1:17:01Speaker 00

  I love those human moments in sports. They're my favorite.

• 1:17:03Trevor Noah?

  But so many people in wrestling and the fans that they were so angry. Because it like broke the thing that they were trying to maintain.

• 1:17:13Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:17:13Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:17:14Speaker 00

  Directly in the camera. Like, yeah, they they let their humanity out a little bit.

• 1:17:17Trevor Noah?

  But more than that, for me, what I think was the people, especially the fans that night who were there, I think they were angry as well because you you've taken away our sort of like, not that people are gonna go punch each other, I don't think wrestling at hooligans. But you've sort of put the responsibility, the emotional responsibility back on us now.

• 1:17:35Speaker 00

  To check ourselves?

• 1:17:37Trevor Noah?

  Because you can't go that they hate each other and beat each other. So you're like, so my rage is just my rage. It's it's not a, does this make sense?

• 1:17:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 1:17:47Trevor Noah?

  It's my thing. It's not their thing. And so when I when I extrapolate it further, I go, world leaders.

• 1:17:56Trevor Noah?

  I don't think you can take for granted how in the United States, people always talk about, people are more polarized, people, yes, but you know what we should never take for granted?

• 1:18:06Trevor Noah?

  Is the fact that over the past few decades, fewer and fewer politicians from opposite sides of the aisle, because there's only two here for some crazy reason.

• 1:18:15Trevor Noah?

  Don't come out together and do things together and show each other together and be together. They don't.

• 1:18:22Trevor Noah?

  And one of the, one of the worst examples of this for me was when, I think it was like Chris Christie was fighting, you know, up against Hillary Clinton back in the I was like, but these people, they're they're like friends. They get along. It felt like wrestling.

• 1:18:38Trevor Noah?

  But I was like, but their fans don't know.

• 1:18:40Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:18:41Trevor Noah?

  The fans don't know that they can argue about law and still get along.

• 1:18:45Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:18:46Trevor Noah?

  The fans don't know that they're arguing in Congress, but then they go have lunch together. The fans don't know this.

• 1:18:54Speaker 00

  Theater.

• 1:18:55Trevor Noah?

  But but.

• 1:18:55Speaker 00

  Theater.

• 1:18:56Trevor Noah?

  But I would even.

• 1:18:56Speaker 00

  I'm just saying it's in theater, right?

• 1:18:57Trevor Noah?

  No, but I'd say even.

• 1:18:59Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:18:59Trevor Noah?

  Theater. Yeah, but I'm saying even beyond theater. Let's let's even give them the benefit of the doubt.

• 1:19:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:04Trevor Noah?

  It may not be theater. It's an aspect of what they do. When you, when you work in government, you argue against the other side. You fight against the other side. That is part of the job. You're playing a sport of fighting politically. But it would be nice if you showed that you also see them as humans when you're not fighting, because I do think then your fans in the stands would go, oh.

• 1:19:28Trevor Noah?

  Oh Mitch McConnell goes for lunch every day with, you know Chuck Schumer.

• 1:19:32Speaker 00

  No, it's why people lose their mind when they see George W. Bush and Michelle Obama.

• 1:19:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, people are like, yeah, people are like laughing.

• 1:19:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:40Trevor Noah?

  People, because now they seem like outliers because they do that when they, when they get along. But that used to be normal. And I think if you, if the fans don't see it, if the people don't see it, we take for granted how much it's monkey see, monkey do.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think I, when I look at sports, sometimes I look at how, because I like watching boxing. But there's one referee, I don't know his name, but whenever he's officiating a fight, he also has blood on his shirt.

• 1:20:06Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 1:20:07Speaker 02

  Have you seen that referee?

• 1:20:08Speaker 00

  I don't watch boxing.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  Like gets in there and he's like.

• 1:20:10Trevor Noah?

  What does he look like?

• 1:20:11Speaker 02

  Um, he's got a mustache.

• 1:20:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. I know, I think I know.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's the only, he's the only referee.

• 1:20:16Trevor Noah?

  Is the black guy?

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I know the guy, I know the guy you're talking about, yes.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  It feels like.

• 1:20:19Trevor Noah?

  He's been in the game.

• 1:20:20Speaker 02

  He's been in the game. It feels like he can't take a side because you don't know whose blood that is.

• 1:20:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:25Speaker 02

  But also I've seen it with football as well. There's coaches who are calm, who will just sit there or with their hands behind or will just calm the players down. But there's other coaches who are like.

• 1:20:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, in the game.

• 1:20:37Speaker 02

  Fans get instigated, you know, and the outrage becomes more. But the, the, the coaches where I feel like if something wrong happens in the field, they're the first person to go.

• 1:20:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  They take responsibility for the men that they lead. And I think that's what's missing right now. There's not enough emotional refereeing that people who know better can do. People who can stand up for each other, who can get themselves bloodied, although not needing to, but then they can get in there and go, this doesn't need to be said, that bucket does not need to be spilled, and it wasn't your fault that it was spilled on you.

• 1:21:10Trevor Noah?

  Can I, can I challenge this a little bit?

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:12Trevor Noah?

  I agree with you, but I actually don't think it's a fault thing. I think it's an amplification thing. I would argue there are as many people online who are putting out positive as negative.

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:23Trevor Noah?

  Right? People, not bots and things. Let's, so let's, let's exclude that because a lot of the internet is just fake. It's like 40% or it's a crazy number of like.

• 1:21:29Speaker 00

  Oh, every, I get a, I get a thing from Instagram that literally will say 51,000 of your followers are bots.

• 1:21:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:36Speaker 00

  Please delete. Like.

• 1:21:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:38Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, so there's a large portion.

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  I'm keeping them, Mina.

• 1:21:41Trevor Noah?

  There's a large portion.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  Every fan matters, isn't it? Talk to me, bot. HP2811.

• 1:21:52Trevor Noah?

  So, so, so let's exclude that part, the fake part of it. I'm saying the people online.

• 1:21:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:58Trevor Noah?

  If I, again, if I was just to guess, I would think you probably find it's an equal amount, maybe even more positive.

• 1:22:05Trevor Noah?

  But I think those people don't get amplified.

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:22:08Trevor Noah?

  I think the person, especially in the digital world we live in.

• 1:22:11Speaker 02

  Feeling it?

• 1:22:12Trevor Noah?

  Even in the political, etc. I think the people who step in to try and referee moments, the people who try and do that, I don't think they get amplified. They really, really don't.

• 1:22:21Speaker 00

  No, I'm, I'm, I'm like fixing to square up. Like, I, no, I, oh, okay.

• 1:22:30Speaker 00

  I agree with everything you're saying, and I agree with everything you're saying.

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  Please come live in our house.

• 1:22:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I will. Um, bring pickleball. Yeah, we'll make a net.

• 1:22:42Speaker 00

  I'm so frustrated right now that, that I think everything you're saying is true. I think, I wish there was another name for liberal democracy besides liberal democracy, because people hear the word liberal as the adjective to the type of democracy and they go, they go just fricking crazy. But democracy, I think democracy depends on what you're describing. I think that's, I think democracy depends on what you're describing. Democracy depends on people understanding that we are not hating, that politicians are not hating each other. They are lunching, but they're debating politics. They're debating, you know, that is.

• 1:23:22Speaker 00

  I absolutely believe that authoritarianism, um, depends on the vilification and dehumanization of political opponents. So when Trump, you know, whatever his thing, true socials.

• 1:23:39Trevor Noah?

  He reminded me of your joke.

• 1:23:43Trevor Noah?

  He reminded me of your joke. Don't put me back in that, Renee. Let's move on. Don't put me back in it, please.

• 1:23:48Speaker 00

  You own this fricking platform. Why do you have to have the real dot, at real dot Trump forty seven thirty two? Like, dude, um, anyway, but.

• 1:23:59Speaker 00

  I think like when when Robert Mueller died. Yeah. And he said, I'm glad he's dead. Mm hmm. Like, that is not, that that that could be pathology, but it's also authoritarianism from the playbook. Oh, for sure. It absolutely depends on that. But what's scarier to me is democracy depends on understanding that policy differences can exist between people who see each other as humans with different ideas about how to achieve the same goal. And what I think is interesting about

• 1:24:40Speaker 00

  this tying sport back into that, where you see those coaches, and this is, this is incredible. So when you look at the research on

• 1:24:50Speaker 00

  two types of teams, a team playing to not lose versus a team playing to win. So I'll take you right back to kind of the Birds and the Chiefs, Super Bowl. Yeah.

• 1:25:04Speaker 00

  One of, and this is what's so interesting about what you're saying about amplification. One of, if you, if you blindfolded me and put my back to the field, it doesn't matter the sport, and just had me listen to what it sounds like on the bench from Team A and the bench on Team B, I could predict probably with 90% accuracy the winner based on the contagion of emotion in the sideline. So negative contagion, the coach that's losing his shit, that kind of stuff. Negative contagion is one of the biggest predictors of a team playing to not lose. No way. Right. So let's say you, let's say,

• 1:25:50Speaker 00

  let's take American football. So I fumble the ball. Yeah. And I come back to the sideline and you're like, what the fuck, dude?

• 1:26:02Speaker 00

  That is so negative contagion. First, so amplification, it is amplification because we know that all of the social media platforms, we know that we can keep people on the platforms longer through negativity than positivity.

• 1:26:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:18Speaker 00

  We know commercially incidents, again, aligned incidents, right? So the more vitriol and hate, the longer I stay on. We also know that in general, negative rumination and emotion lasts longer than positive emotion. So, but if I get off the field and then you hit my helmet and say, you're good. You're good. When I, after I've dropped the ball and caused a turnover.

• 1:26:39Speaker 02

  You're safe.

• 1:26:40Speaker 00

  I'm safe. Yeah. And it actually predicts winning. It predicts score.

• 1:26:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:26:49Speaker 00

  So one of the things that just happened, like, I'm a huge Spurs fan. Let's go. I love the Spurs. I love Pop. I love Tim Duncan. I love David Robinson. I love Wimby. I love the Spurs. I love Ginobili. Like, let's go. So in a press conference, I could cry, I want to tell the story. And first of all, like, watching David Robinson and Tim Duncan on the sidelines, watching the Spurs right now.

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  Intergenerational joy.

• 1:27:14Speaker 00

  I mean, I just cry when I see it, literally. And so during a press conference, they ask Wimby, is it really scary for you, this, this like, threat of seeing those guys on the sideline? Like, like, just legends, right? These legends. And he said, no, it just feels safe. I feel held. Like, if I, if I fall, there'll be someone there. Look at Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan goes to, takes, goes to rehab with Popovich every day.

• 1:27:43Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:27:44Speaker 00

  I mean, this is like, this is not soft bullshit.

• 1:27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:53Speaker 00

  This is what it means to win. Positive emotional contagion. Love, care, that's winning. You know? And people don't get it because they're so afraid, you know, that it's not masculine and it's not tough. But love is what wins.

• 1:28:13Speaker 02

  Leading with it, yeah.

• 1:28:15Speaker 00

  Leading with love.

• 1:28:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. We were saying this the other day, we're saying, kids get taught this. Almost instinctually and automatically from their parents to lead with love. But just using two words that lynch everything in. Thank you and please. So before you have to say the thing that you are thankful for, you have to say thank you for.

• 1:28:36Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:37Speaker 02

  And before you have to ask for anything and be vulnerable and open yourself up, you have to say, may I please have da da da da da. And then we as people, as we grow older, we find ways not to use those words and lead with love first. Right?

• 1:28:50Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 1:28:51Speaker 02

  You'd be like, yeah, yeah, for that thing. Mm hmm. Yeah, you know what I mean? But you're like, no, you could have said, thank you for that thing.

• 1:28:57Speaker 00

  Or may I please have this thing?

• 1:28:59Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, thank, yeah, this, yeah. So you're avoiding leading with love.

• 1:29:05Speaker 00

  And you're avoiding vulnerability.

• 1:29:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you know that once you, he said this the other day, he was like, once you've said, may I please?

• 1:29:11Trevor Noah?

  Oh, you're open.

• 1:29:12Speaker 02

  You've put yourself.

• 1:29:12Trevor Noah?

  You're fully open.

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  And then you've put the request last. So you were like, me, my need and the request. May I please have whatever it is? And that's not what we want. And I feel like adults can just go back by just using those two words again. Please and thank you.

• 1:29:30Speaker 00

  I think they're functions of love. And they're functions, they're functions of love. I think hard, they're functions of love. They're functions of vulnerability.

• 1:29:38Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:39Speaker 00

  I haven't thought about it enough, but I guess what I, where I'd be curious is, do they require a level of safety?

• 1:29:46Trevor Noah?

  They definitely do.

• 1:29:46Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 1:29:47Speaker 00

  I think, yeah.

• 1:29:47Trevor Noah?

  No, a thousand percent, they definitely do.

• 1:29:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:49Trevor Noah?

  Because each one.

• 1:29:50Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:51Trevor Noah?

  Requires you to in some way, shape or form, humble yourself. Right?

• 1:29:56Speaker 00

  There is a humility.

• 1:29:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, because thank you for opens you up to debt.

• 1:30:02Speaker 00

  It does.

• 1:30:03Trevor Noah?

  It immediately opens you up to debt.

• 1:30:05Speaker 00

  Neither one of us like that. We don't like that over here. We don't like debt. I don't want to owe you jack shit.

• 1:30:12Trevor Noah?

  Me a pickle game.

• 1:30:14Speaker 00

  You're different because you're wearing short shorts.

• 1:30:16Trevor Noah?

  But it's yeah, you see, there's no debt. Now it's paid.

• 1:30:18Speaker 00

  Paid in full, baby.

• 1:30:21Trevor Noah?

  People take that for granted. One of the reasons thank you can be so hard is because it opens you up to debt. Thank you for looking after me when I was sick. Thank you for coming to my birthday party. Thank you for loaning me that money. Thank you for calling me. Thank you for.

• 1:30:39Trevor Noah?

  Because we live in a world where somewhere along the line, we've been taught whether it's internally, externally, whatever. The debts have to be repaid, you know, a Lannister always pays his debts.

• 1:30:48Speaker 00

  It hits against hyper individualization.

• 1:30:51Trevor Noah?

  There you go. So now for me, if I say, if I say, thank you.

• 1:30:55Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 1:30:55Trevor Noah?

  Damn. Okay, you've got it. Now it's a debt.

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  You caught me now.

• 1:30:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and maybe your parents taught you that, for instance. So you go like, hey, thank you for fetching me from school, mom. And then your mom goes, yeah, next. And now when I ask you to do your, clean your room later, you better do it. Ah, damn.

• 1:31:10Speaker 00

  So you know what? There's a meme right now for Mother's Day that I fricking hate.

• 1:31:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:18Speaker 00

  It's thinking about not saying thank you to your mom. This is how long an epidural needle is.

• 1:31:24Trevor Noah?

  You see, it's debt. Yeah, it's debt. That's what I mean.

• 1:31:28Speaker 00

  But love is not duty.

• 1:31:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but that's, but this is, but this is what I mean. It's like.

• 1:31:33Speaker 00

  Love is not duty.

• 1:31:34Trevor Noah?

  Yes, but it is debt. This is, this is what I mean. So all these things, same thing.

• 1:31:39Speaker 02

  Open you up.

• 1:31:39Trevor Noah?

  Please, I mean, you are completely at the mercy.

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  Open, yeah.

• 1:31:43Trevor Noah?

  You are completely at somebody's mercy. It's easier for me to say, yo Eugene, are you gonna finish that?

• 1:31:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:31:48Trevor Noah?

  Now mom was doing you a favor. You gonna finish that? No. Aye, man. Let me handle that for you. I, I didn't, you didn't do anything for me. Are you gonna finish that? You're not gonna finish it, so I will finish it. Whereas if I go, Eugene, can I have the rest? Please, may I have the rest of your, your drink?

• 1:32:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:05Trevor Noah?

  Now you can.

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  Opened yourself up.

• 1:32:07Trevor Noah?

  I'm dead, bro.

• 1:32:08Speaker 02

  You've given him enough time to even decide what I wanna say to you.

• 1:32:10Trevor Noah?

  I'm dead.

• 1:32:10Speaker 00

  It's a signal. It's two in a boy. We hate this. Um, we love death by rugged individualism in this country, but. It is a signal to please and thank you of something we're not good at, which is interdependence.

• 1:32:24Trevor Noah?

  Yes, completely.

• 1:32:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  Interdependence. I need you and you need me.

• 1:32:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:30Speaker 00

  And I'm gonna use a language because like, say something like, I really, thanks for taking care of me when I was sick last week. Say that to me.

• 1:32:36Trevor Noah?

  Thanks for taking care of me when I was sick.

• 1:32:38Speaker 00

  There's nothing.

• 1:32:39Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:42Speaker 00

  It's nothing.

• 1:32:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:44Speaker 00

  Like, as opposed to, "You're welcome, and I'm so glad you're better."

• 1:32:48Trevor Noah?

  Hmm. Damn.

• 1:32:49Speaker 00

  You know, it's, it's, or...

• 1:32:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:52Speaker 00

  Um...

• 1:32:56Speaker 00

  When my kids were growing up, we really taught them that when someone said, "I'm sorry," to never say, "It's okay."

• 1:33:06Trevor Noah?

  Say more.

• 1:33:06Speaker 00

  So, we always taught them to say, "Thank you. I appreciate the apology." Like, I'd just say, "Thank you," that I appreciate that. So, like, let's say...

• 1:33:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but, but why? I'd love to know the why.

• 1:33:19Speaker 00

  Because it's not okay. It was not okay. So...

• 1:33:22Trevor Noah?

  It was an offense.

• 1:33:23Speaker 00

  It was, it was not okay, actually. And so, it's not my job to make you feel better, and I appreciate you making repair. So, so, let's say, um, you say to me,

• 1:33:38Speaker 00

  "Brené, I'm sorry that text came off as shitty."

• 1:33:40Trevor Noah?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:33:41Speaker 00

  So, you say that to me.

• 1:33:42Trevor Noah?

  Brené, I'm, I'm sorry that text came off as shitty.

• 1:33:44Speaker 00

  Thank you. I appreciate it.

• 1:33:47Speaker 00

  So, the first time I had to apologize to one of my kids for kind of losing my cool, I went and I said, you know, I'm really, I think he was 10. I said, "I'm really sorry about how I showed up. Um, I think I got scared, and I wasn't my, my best self, and I apologize." So, I looked at me and he goes, "Thank you." I was like, "God damn, you're grounded, dude."

• 1:34:14Speaker 00

  I was like, "Oh, smart, yeah."

• 1:34:18Speaker 00

  Every parenting gene that was set by my parents...

• 1:34:21Trevor Noah?

  That's so funny.

• 1:34:22Speaker 00

  Who would have killed me in that moment.

• 1:34:24Trevor Noah?

  That is so funny.

• 1:34:25Speaker 00

  When he said, "Thank you. I appreciate it," I was like...

• 1:34:28Trevor Noah?

  He didn't absolve, he wasn't like, "It's okay, mommy."

• 1:34:31Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 1:34:31Trevor Noah?

  "You're doing your best, and I know what you're going through."

• 1:34:33Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 1:34:33Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:34:34Speaker 00

  It was like, "Thank you. I appreciate it." I, I literally had to, like, close this door and be like,

• 1:34:40Speaker 00

  I was like, "What the fuck?"

• 1:34:44Speaker 00

  But, I really, because like, you know, you see brothers, I have a daughter and a son, and, you know, Ellen might waylay Charlie, you know, and then... It's like, how do you think it feels for your brother?

• 1:34:56Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:34:57Speaker 00

  It probably hurts. I'm like, right, so what do we need to do next? And this is like such a pain in the ass, because like I'm cooking and taking a work call. I have to pause everything and it's, you know, I was raised like, tell your brother you're sorry, I'll kick your ass and you'll be grounded for six weeks, you know? So then I had to sit down and say, how do you think that feels, this and this, you know? And so then, okay, Charlie, I'm sorry. Thank you. Okay, prepare.

• 1:35:22Trevor Noah?

  See, that scenario that you painted, though, is one that I often mourn. When I, when I think about the cost of hyper individualism and extreme capitalism, the way we experience it now.

• 1:35:36Trevor Noah?

  It's, it's made us

• 1:35:39Trevor Noah?

  trade without realizing

• 1:35:42Trevor Noah?

  our independence, but then also our level of connectedness.

• 1:35:46Speaker 02

  Dependence, yeah.

• 1:35:47Trevor Noah?

  Literally what you're saying there. I'm cooking, I'm on a call and I'm looking after the kids.

• 1:35:55Trevor Noah?

  And then I can't help but extrapolate that to everything in society. I go, how many people are cooking, taking a call, looking after the kids? And then we expect them to be more patient in traffic. Do you get what I'm saying?

• 1:36:08Speaker 00

  This is how my bucket gets filled, actually.

• 1:36:09Trevor Noah?

  That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what I'm coming to.

• 1:36:12Speaker 00

  This is my rage bucket.

• 1:36:13Trevor Noah?

  There you go, because you're cooking, you're taking a call, you're looking after the kids. And, and then on top of that, you've got your work, you're cooking, you're taking after the kids, and you've got this, you're cooking, you get what I'm saying?

• 1:36:22Speaker 00

  And you've got the patriarchy and fascism.

• 1:36:24Trevor Noah?

  There you go.

• 1:36:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I'm pissed off now.

• 1:36:26Trevor Noah?

  Whereas, whereas, when we look not to like some magical concept, to a thing that many peoples were doing all over the world.

• 1:36:34Trevor Noah?

  I'm constantly shocked at how few adults you need to look after groups of children.

• 1:36:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:36:40Trevor Noah?

  We take that for granted. Even, even now, people have a babysitter for their child. A babysitter for a child.

• 1:36:49Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 1:36:50Trevor Noah?

  You know that you go to places where one adult can look after like a squad of like fifteen to twenty kids, and it's fine.

• 1:36:59Speaker 00

  That's how I was raised.

• 1:37:00Trevor Noah?

  It is fine. But we don't, we, we've like, we've forgotten what that load does. Like if you, if you live in a community, if you, if, if you, if we didn't, and I understand why these things exist, but if we didn't live in a community where, you know, like the emotional boundaries between our spaces also like enforced our physical ones.

• 1:37:20Trevor Noah?

  You realize like, one person could cook and go like, I'm gonna cook. And now all the kids are in one place. And then the person's looking after all the kids and then other people are helping with the cooking and then other.

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, community.

• 1:37:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I, but people sometimes treat it like you, you, you, you're pitching like a weird commune type. But I'm like, but we used to like, do this. We had the ability to do this. And life is a constant balance between how much do I have to myself, time, privacy, et cetera? And how much do I get to bear with others because it's necessary?

• 1:37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:53Trevor Noah?

  And if we get that balance wrong, and I think we're getting it wrong, especially in the West. What it then means is your bucket is gonna fill up so much faster. And we're just gonna have less time to be, because everyone is doing the work that each person needs to do. When one person could have been doing a bunch of work for a bunch of people, giving them time off, giving them. You know where I realized that funny enough, one of the craziest realizations for me? I love speaking to people who've been married for long. And people who've been divorced and people. One of the most fascinating conversations I had was, was with a man who got divorced. Him and his wife were married for like twenty five years, they got divorced. And he, he, he even said, he was like, um, the reason I asked him was because we were in the same vehicle.

• 1:38:39Trevor Noah?

  Being transported to a hotel and he was on a FaceTime with his ex-wife. And they were laughing and chatting and blah, blah, blah and share, blah, blah, blah. Okay, bye, bye, bye.

• 1:38:50Trevor Noah?

  And then we started talking, you know, just conversation. One thing led to another and he was like, oh, no, that I'm divorced. That's my ex-wife. I was like, damn, you guys seem pretty cool. He said, yeah, I'm really lucky. We had a great divorce. You know, as great as a divorce can be. He said, but now we always joke about how we're living our best lives, me and her. And I was like, what do you mean? And he said, because we didn't realize the whole time when we were married. That we didn't have to do all the work together. We could give each other a break and one of us could work and one of us could rest. And he's like, now we do that. So now, when I'm working with the kids, she's completely free. When she's working with, I'm completely free. And we joke and go, why didn't we do this? Do marriage like this?

• 1:39:35Trevor Noah?

  Because one of the things that drained them was the fact that they were constantly doing it. They were up at night, then they were at school things. Then they were at, then they were at, then they, so both people are getting tired. Doing a job that one person can do. And then when they now split the labor, they're living their best lives.

• 1:39:54Speaker 00

  That's true, actually.

• 1:39:54Trevor Noah?

  And my brain genuinely finds these connections through all things in society. Genuinely, like all things, all things in society. We don't understand how much we can be helping each other with just things. But we haven't been sold that as a, as a feasible way to live. And then we wonder why we experience the effects that we do.

• 1:40:13Speaker 00

  I mean, I think that's true. I mean, Steve and I will be together for forty years. My husband, yeah.

• 1:40:19Speaker 02

  So what was this whole flirting thing about then?

• 1:40:21Speaker 00

  Well, we were flirting?

• 1:40:22Speaker 02

  I thought we were going somewhere, you and I. Now you bring up Steve.

• 1:40:32Speaker 02

  You really have to be careful about how.

• 1:40:35Speaker 00

  Wait, I wanna know what was flirting? No. Cause we were gonna play pickleball together?

• 1:40:40Trevor Noah?

  No, he's joking. This is, this is the troll. Welcome to my life, Renee Brown. Welcome to my life.

• 1:40:49Speaker 00

  I mean, if I have to flirt with you to get you on the pickleball court, I'm not above that.

• 1:40:53Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Yeah. Goodbye, Steve.

• 1:40:59Trevor Noah?

  Don't press anything. We've got more What Now after this.

• 1:41:05Speaker 04

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• 1:41:47Speaker 04

  That's C O O P sleepgoods.com/ comedy.

• 1:41:57Trevor Noah?

  You know, actually, there's something I was wondering the other day. You you work with a lot of company leaders, right? Like CEOs and everything. I was wondering if you have any intimate conversations with them about how they or rather what role they should be playing in a country that's falling apart at the seams.

• 1:42:14Speaker 00

  Hmm, I have, yes. Yeah, I mean, I do. Let me go back to Steve because I want to tell you something about what that you're the connection you made in that car ride.

• 1:42:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:24Speaker 00

  I think that saved my marriage. Like what you're talking about. And I fought it tooth and nail.

• 1:42:34Speaker 00

  People always say like, out of your, y'all been together for 40 years. You know, what's the secret? And I always remember someone asking Paul Newman that about his marriage with Joey. You know, and she, he said, neither one of us wanted to get a divorce at the same time. And I think, I think, you know, when you're talking decades, that there's some truth to that. But I also think that, um,

• 1:42:54Speaker 00

  I mean, I hate this for you, but he's an amazing guy. Just really sweet, just a kind, strong, but very loving person, pediatrician.

• 1:43:09Speaker 00

  But every day, he just saw woman after woman after woman drowning in resentment and rage and grief with a baby on the hip and a stew on the stove. And, you know, and then every now and then, you know, a husband would come in and say, oh, here's my note about what I'm supposed to ask you. And could you write everything that we need to do on a note? So, you know, you know, and he was also raised by a single mom and a Latina single mom. You know?

• 1:43:42Trevor Noah?

  So he had firsthand, firsthand.

• 1:43:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, he had very firsthand knowledge and he's,

• 1:43:48Speaker 00

  you know, and I remember when we had our first daughter, I was still on my PhD program and. I said, oh God, you know, baby's crying. He's like, I got it. And I said, no, I need to get up with you. And he said, I don't understand. And, you know, and I remember this is like, this is so related to it.

• 1:44:06Speaker 00

  I remember going to a therapist before we even had kids. And so I think I'm going to get a divorce. Like this is, I just don't think this is working.

• 1:44:12Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 1:44:13Speaker 00

  And she said, I could see that. And I said, right?

• 1:44:18Speaker 00

  Like, I love this, like therapist certified problematic. And then she's like, he just likes you so much more than you like you. I could see how that would be frustrating.

• 1:44:30Trevor Noah?

  Yo.

• 1:44:31Speaker 00

  Wait, I love why we're pointing at him. Is this what makes him undateable by his therapist?

• 1:44:35Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, whoa, whoa. No, he's, he's saying this is what we've been talking about.

• 1:44:41Trevor Noah?

  That wasn't, that wasn't, that wasn't, that wasn't an accusatory snap. That's a, that's like, you hear this? That's, that's what he's saying.

• 1:44:49Speaker 00

  I, I read that more as like, dude.

• 1:44:50Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:44:51Speaker 02

  We've had this conversation.

• 1:44:52Trevor Noah?

  That's his, that's his like, ah.

• 1:44:55Speaker 02

  We said liking trumps everything.

• 1:44:57Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  You have to really like the person. Cause loving them, sometimes you love them more than this. But when you like someone, when you like your sweater, when you like your life.

• 1:45:05Speaker 00

  Like is huge.

• 1:45:06Speaker 02

  Like is massive.

• 1:45:07Speaker 00

  Like is huge.

• 1:45:08Trevor Noah?

  But that, that's a, that's an even, that's a next level one of.

• 1:45:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:12Trevor Noah?

  He liked you more than you like yourself.

• 1:45:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I said, fuck you, dude. You're fired.

• 1:45:17Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 1:45:17Speaker 00

  I'll find another therapist. Yeah, but I, it was true. And I think part of it was,

• 1:45:24Speaker 00

  I think coming from a single mom.

• 1:45:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:27Speaker 00

  In a pretty racist San Antonio, and a Latina single mom who was hustling and grinding, you know? And then I'm getting my PhD. I've been, when I told the program director at the time that I was pregnant, his first line was literally, we thought you were going to be someone.

• 1:45:43Trevor Noah?

  Geez.

• 1:45:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so I think for Steve, he just thought.

• 1:45:49Speaker 00

  You're, you're racing to find a spot under the buckets.

• 1:45:56Speaker 00

  You're waiting for the buckets to fall and then running under them to catch this shit. Confirmation about what you're afraid of. Like, move away from the buckets bill, you know, to use our language.

• 1:46:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:08Speaker 00

  And so I think for me, it was, and it, and it absolutely comes back to capitalism. It definitely comes back to, you know, patriarchy. It comes back to, I should be able to do all this at one time really well. Never miss a feeding, never miss this. And he's like, you know, you've got a grant due tomorrow. You sleep, I'll do this.

• 1:46:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:31Speaker 00

  You know, and then.

• 1:46:33Speaker 02

  Did you have a lot of guilt in and around the idea of not doing it?

• 1:46:36Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah. And then I would be like, oh my God, how am I going to do this? I've got this, I'm teaching, the class is going long and Ellen's got this thing at 3:30. And can you be there? And he said, I, I can't be because I'm working. Okay, I'll, I'll reschedule. He goes, and you can't be because you're working.

• 1:46:53Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:46:53Speaker 00

  But then when my daughter turned 16, for Mother's Day, I got a card from her that said, thank you for showing me what it looks like to have a career that's meaningful for you and be a great mom. That's what I want. And I wish that you didn't feel as bad about it as you do sometimes. Wait, I'm going to do that part better.

• 1:47:16Speaker 02

  That, the.

• 1:47:18Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:47:18Speaker 02

  In, in other societies and other levels of life, that inconsistency for one parent or the other to be there might have been looked at as irresponsibility.

• 1:47:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:47:29Speaker 02

  But you allowed yourself to be inconsistent about it. I'm not always going to be there on Wednesday or for your doctor's appointment or to pick you up from tennis. I won't always be there, but it doesn't mean I don't love you. I'm leading with love. I'm doing what I need to do, what I love doing. He's also doing what he needs to do and what he loves doing. But the inconsistency of the Wednesday pickup and the Saturday drop off won't be there, but it doesn't mean it's the absence of love.

• 1:47:53Speaker 00

  Oh my God. And this ties right back to what you said, because what happened that specific day?

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  Tell me.

• 1:48:00Speaker 00

  My mom went.

• 1:48:02Trevor Noah?

  No, community.

• 1:48:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:48:04Trevor Noah?

  Community.

• 1:48:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, and so it was, yeah.

• 1:48:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, community.

• 1:48:07Speaker 00

  My mom went. Yeah, or, yeah, when I had to put her in, you know, daycare, my sister was like, oh, because I have two younger sisters, I'll pick her up on Tuesday and Thursday. My other sister was like, I've got Fridays. And then when they're, you know, it was like, so we were definitely raised in that.

• 1:48:25Trevor Noah?

  Community.

• 1:48:26Speaker 00

  That, that, and we didn't have the one to fifteen ratio. We just had the oldest person to the thirteen kids that were there. So that, so we had the sixteen year old taking care of.

• 1:48:36Trevor Noah?

  Yes, and it works.

• 1:48:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then we'd be like.

• 1:48:38Trevor Noah?

  People forget that it works.

• 1:48:39Speaker 02

  Deputy parent, best parent ever.

• 1:48:41Trevor Noah?

  Guys, we're still here. This is what I always try and tell people is I go, sometimes in life now, we're creating safeguards for things that were never really a problem.

• 1:48:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:49Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean? They go like, right now, there's a fifteen year old taking care of a seven year old. I'm like, yeah, that, and it works. It, you, it works surprisingly well.

• 1:48:58Speaker 02

  Great with dogs.

• 1:48:59Trevor Noah?

  I'm not saying that this should be. Yeah, but I'm saying like, this should not be the permanent solution, but we take for granted that as a species, we are quite interdependent.

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:09Trevor Noah?

  And it works. It is not the.

• 1:49:11Speaker 02

  It's nature's way.

• 1:49:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's just not the anarchy that you sell it as.

• 1:49:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's why, it's like.

• 1:49:16Trevor Noah?

  Yes, but you see, I, and this is where I have like a, my conspiracy theory mind goes, you cannot show people that it works because then they will not participate in an economy.

• 1:49:26Speaker 00

  They won't buy the shit they need to make it look perfect.

• 1:49:28Trevor Noah?

  Because if you, if you learn that your mom or dad is willing to take care of your kids on certain days.

• 1:49:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:34Trevor Noah?

  Why are you now dipping into an app that finds babysitters for you?

• 1:49:37Speaker 02

  Why are you doing aftercare?

• 1:49:38Trevor Noah?

  If you know, did you know, this is gonna blow your mind, both of you, I hope you're ready for this.

• 1:49:42Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49:43Trevor Noah?

  Did you know that someone in your life is willing to drop you off at the airport?

• 1:49:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:49:51Trevor Noah?

  This is a real thing. I know a lot of people are gonna be like, that's not a thing, Trevor.

• 1:49:55Speaker 00

  Like Huber?

• 1:49:56Trevor Noah?

  You see, it's funny that you said that. You see? I love that.

• 1:50:00Speaker 00

  I got it from both sides.

• 1:50:00Trevor Noah?

  Who are you? You see, but you see what they've done?

• 1:50:02Speaker 00

  No, I know, I know, I know.

• 1:50:03Trevor Noah?

  But this is what they've done.

• 1:50:04Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:50:04Trevor Noah?

  What they've done so well is they've made us replace ourselves as the default. And now we've thought of the service as the default.

• 1:50:13Speaker 00

  No, that's true.

• 1:50:15Trevor Noah?

  We've replaced each other as the default.

• 1:50:17Speaker 00

  Or, here's what, yes, and here's what's, the other thing that's happening is, I feel bad.

• 1:50:22Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:50:22Speaker 00

  Because I couldn't pick you up on Wednesday.

• 1:50:24Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:50:25Speaker 00

  So what I'm gonna do is, I'm gonna take my eight-year-old for a splurge at the cosmetic store. So she can get eight-year-old facials and eight-year-old lipsticks. It means like, it is, there is a, yeah, I mean, this, but I hate the late-stage capitalism thing because it's just true, but what are we gonna do? I mean, like, like.

• 1:50:43Trevor Noah?

  No, I, look, I.

• 1:50:44Speaker 00

  What do you do?

• 1:50:45Trevor Noah?

  I think, here's the thing that I try and tell people, and that's why I haven't forgotten my question to you. When I have the opportunity to talk to like CEOs or big companies, anyone.

• 1:50:54Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:55Trevor Noah?

  I genuinely ask them this question, and I go, I said, do you realize, I understand that you live quarter to quarter. I understand this. So maybe you're not the person to speak to. But you do realize that society doesn't live quarter to quarter.

• 1:51:11Trevor Noah?

  And over the long term, you will have fewer quarters because at some point, society's gonna turn against you. I don't know when, but I know that they will because what you are doing is unsustainable.

• 1:51:25Trevor Noah?

  It is unsustainable. We now live in a world where we don't even own things that we buy. You ever think about how crazy that is? You buy music now. Have you ever read the terms and conditions? I do this to myself sometimes just because I'm entertained. It'll be like, new terms and conditions, and I go read it. You know now, on many streaming services where you buy, not, I'm not saying you have a streaming service, not Netflix. You buy an album or you buy a movie, buy it. You know that you're not buying the movie, you're buying the right.

• 1:51:54Speaker 00

  To watch it.

• 1:51:54Trevor Noah?

  To watch the movie or stream it, as long as that service exists.

• 1:51:58Speaker 00

  That's right, yeah.

• 1:51:59Speaker 02

  So if they go away, the money goes as well?

• 1:52:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but, but you don't know this. You think you are buying Bad Boys, the movie. And you have it, you do not have it. You you don't even have the right to give it to your friend to watch anymore. You we live in a world where now we're not even. This is like the further stage of late stage capitalism is.

• 1:52:16Speaker 00

  It's like para-consumption.

• 1:52:17Trevor Noah?

  That's what I mean is like before, at least it was like, okay.

• 1:52:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:20Trevor Noah?

  Capitalism is bad, but at least you are getting what you bought.

• 1:52:23Speaker 00

  You got shit.

• 1:52:24Trevor Noah?

  You are getting what you bought. Now they're like, no, no, no, no, no. You do not own your car, you do not own your music, you do not own. And it will, they will keep finding more and more ways for it to happen.

• 1:52:37Trevor Noah?

  And we don't realize that the the infinite of that. I tell leaders this all the time. I go, at some point, it's gonna come to you. Trump is a byproduct of this. Yes, you know, Trump, yeah, look, I think he's very like good at being charismatic. He's very good at seeming real on stage and all these things, all these things, yes. But him and the timing of him had to be perfect.

• 1:53:01Speaker 00

  I believe that's true.

• 1:53:02Trevor Noah?

  Him and the timing of him.

• 1:53:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:04Trevor Noah?

  People love disruptors when something needs to be disrupted. You get what I'm saying?

• 1:53:08Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. People don't want to hear that, though. That's really tough for people to hear.

• 1:53:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, so people love disruptors when something needs to be disrupted.

• 1:53:14Speaker 00

  That's hard.

• 1:53:15Trevor Noah?

  Zoran Mamdani, there's a version of it completely opposite, where you go like, wow, how did his thing? Because people then again went, actually, you're right. You can't afford to live in New York. You no matter what your job is, it's like only the super, super, super rich are having a good time in New York. Places are empty, people can't live, what what's the point of the city anymore?

• 1:53:35Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:53:35Trevor Noah?

  And then they go, then Zoran comes in and people are like, how could anyone vote for him? Like, yeah, the only reason you don't understand it is because clearly you are living in the lap of luxury and you're so removed from reality that you don't understand the people.

• 1:53:47Speaker 00

  The disruption.

• 1:53:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, all that's why all the newspapers were like, is Zoran gonna destroy New York? It's like, no, that's the question that the boss of your newspaper has, not what the people have. These things cannot go on forever. You cannot extract from people forever. At some point, people go, you know what? No, look what's happening now. There are cities and counties and places where in America they're going, we're not gonna approve the data center. This is a community.

• 1:54:17Speaker 00

  The water, yeah.

• 1:54:17Trevor Noah?

  The community is going.

• 1:54:18Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:54:19Trevor Noah?

  I know you want to build a data center here, no. Oh, but AI, but they're like, eh. Our electricity prices keep going up. Nobody comes to us to tell us why or we don't see the benefits. Our water. Is running out. We don't see the benefits. And on top of that, it's not even like you're giving us this thing for free in some.

• 1:54:39Speaker 02

  You still have to subscribe and.

• 1:54:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. So why would we actually? No, no, thank you. No more. And I think the more people realize that, the more they are gonna do something, because they can do something. And then that's when business is going to, remember like. Business didn't stop putting asbestos in things because it was fun for them. Uh, business didn't stop, you know, or stop putting catalytic converters into cars because it was fun for them. Business will always work within the parameters it is given.

• 1:55:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:09Trevor Noah?

  It's a shark. It grows as big as its tank. It's as simple as that. And that's why I like, I, I find myself wondering, I'm like, is it because, but, but you, you literally work. With CEOs, you help them, the human side of the company. I would love to know. What's some of the conversations you are that you have with these leaders in this climate where you go, hey, you realize you, you. You contribute, you're contributing on one end or the other. Either the threads you pull are so tight that people then make more extreme decisions. Or the example you're setting is so. You know, callous. That people then feel like they should be, does this ever come in on, on that level?

• 1:55:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think it comes in on a daily basis. I think, first of all, I just want to say. The attention in the stories and the examples that you're given. On something we never talk about, which is the importance of conditions for things to happen.

• 1:56:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:08Speaker 00

  There, there's very, there are very few people talking about what conditions needed to be present. For a second Trump presidency. What conditions for Mumdani? What, what are the conditions? And it's interesting because. We.

• 1:56:27Speaker 00

  It's just a separate conversation, but I just wanted to say that it's very rare for me to be in a conversation with someone who appreciates that there really is very little that's as important as understanding conditions. People just don't understand it.

• 1:56:43Trevor Noah?

  Let me tell you how much people don't understand it.

• 1:56:45Speaker 00

  I can't wait.

• 1:56:46Trevor Noah?

  One of the most fascinating books I ever read was a book that basically argued, pretty successfully, that all the beliefs you hold are not necessarily beliefs that you hold. They're merely the beliefs that were available to you in the environment that you were placed in. And it shows you how, in America, for instance, you just look at mountain ranges that exist around across the country and how water fell on either side of a mountain range. And that tells you whether or not somebody's conservative or liberal.

• 1:57:16Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 1:57:19Trevor Noah?

  But I don't think many of the people who are there would think that I am like this, or I, the things I think I believe are actually just primarily influenced by the condition. I was on this side of the mountain. There was less water. Times were harder. Things weren't as, and that is why, whereas on this side, we had a river, it rained more, it did this, there was, there was more, there was more, there was more work, there was more. So then I have these views or these ideas. We constantly take for granted the environment. Constantly.

• 1:57:53Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is, okay, this could go down. We just have to do podcast forty seven on, on, on, on, on systems theory, because this is system theory, like person and environment. I think if you understand conditions and you understand the neurobiology of the fact that we are not cognitive beings who on occasion feel, we are emotional beings who on occasion think.

• 1:58:17Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 1:58:18Speaker 00

  I think so. If you understand conditions and person and environment, and you understand emotion and the neurobiology of emotion and everything, emotion, decision making, emotion, everything, I think you, we would have a very, a much more clear picture of what we're complicit in, what we're doing and what's happening. I think for the conversations,

• 1:58:42Speaker 00

  I have to be really careful about talking about this and not for NDA reasons, which those are, I got it, those are, I got into those ass high at this point, but it's really because.

• 1:58:56Speaker 00

  I didn't come into the work because I have an expert opinion on how the straight of hormones is going to affect supply chain along with tariff. Yeah. Like, I have to understand that stuff because I'm mostly just sitting in a meeting trying to understand if a group of people at a table can work well enough together. Yeah. And have the grounded confidence to make hard decisions together that are, you know. I think a lot of times people, people who know me well will say, is your work kind of just a Trojan horse for making people kinder and braver to each other? And I'll say, no, it's really about supply chain. Um, you know, because it's not really. And so for me, I have to be careful because the assessment process for me to work with

• 1:59:36Speaker 00

  someone starts with the first question of, you want me to come in and make people braver? Um, I'm, I'm happy to talk about that from an assessment perspective. The opposite of courageous leadership is not fear. What gets in the way is armor. Where, you know, people who are afraid every day and they still do brave things. The opposite of courage is armor. How do we self-protect and armor up when we're in fear? That's what drives bad strategy, bad human, you know, bad human interaction. And so if they're like, okay, we're willing to talk about armor in our company and how we armor up. And I said, great, then I'm going to talk to the people with the least formal power

• 2:00:20Speaker 00

  and ask them why armor is required here. Oh, geez.

• 2:00:24Speaker 02

  The vulnerable ones, yeah.

• 2:00:24Speaker 00

  Right. I'm going to ask the people that don't look like everybody else, that have the least proximity to power. I'm going to start there. And so I'm really only working with CEOs who say, ask anything you want of anyone you want. Oh, interesting. I, we need more strategic risk-taking. We need people to be braver. We need more collaboration. We need more productive challenge. I can't have people on teams who are afraid to challenge their boss. Right, right. So I'm like, great, then this is a good fit for me. So what I would say in general, and what I see working across companies globally right now is if...

• 2:01:03Speaker 00

  You are trying to create a place, a culture. And it's interesting because the work that I do, you would think because that's where we start, we would measure culture. But actually, the first things that change when we go into a company, probably not surprising, but counterintuitive to some, is actually performance gets stronger.

• 2:01:23Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 2:01:24Speaker 00

  When you create a workforce of people who feel seen and respected and heard, performance just sky. And that's whether we're talking, I'm talking, working with a soccer team, or I'm working with a manufacturing company. It doesn't matter. When people feel seen, heard, and believed and trusted, performance goes through the roof.

• 2:01:40Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 2:01:41Speaker 00

  You cannot stop people. Right. So, so I'm a hard, I'm not for everyone because we are going to talk about identity. We're going to talk about power. We're going to have all the conversations you're not supposed to be having right now in organizations. Because if you want to drive performance, we need to talk about that. We, because let's say I'm leading a team and we're the AI adoption team.

• 2:02:05Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 2:02:07Speaker 00

  It will never work unless you trust me enough to productively challenge what I'm saying.

• 2:02:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:13Speaker 00

  If you say, hey, Bernard, I'm really excited about what you're excited about, based on the data I have, I don't think this is going to work.

• 2:02:19Trevor Noah?

  Hmm.

• 2:02:20Speaker 00

  I'm like, okay, Trevor, go. What do you, what do you see that I don't see?

• 2:02:24Trevor Noah?

  But I have to believe that I can do that.

• 2:02:25Speaker 00

  You have to believe that you're respected and trusted and that your opinion matters. And there won't be the moment where you're vulnerable and then you'll pay for that later.

• 2:02:33Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 2:02:33Speaker 00

  With a promotion or a performance review. So what I always say about the people that I'm working with are these are normally CEOs who care more about winning than their ego. They are willing to have very hard conversations about identity, very hard conversations about power, the misuse of power. They really want to win on all fronts and they believe that winning will require human beings who are respected and deeply connected.

• 2:02:59Trevor Noah?

  They're not playing not to lose.

• 2:03:01Speaker 00

  They're not playing, that, that is the metaphor. They're not playing not to lose. They're playing, and the hard thing is, even right now, if we go into a really, a company that has a lot of success.

• 2:03:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:13Speaker 00

  It is the nature of the C-suite to see the flag planted on the top of the mountain and say, protect the flag.

• 2:03:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:22Speaker 00

  Protect the success, protect the stock price, protect the organic growth, protect the revenue. What's interesting today is that mountain is crumbling from the bottom.

• 2:03:33Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:03:34Speaker 00

  So it is full of crap, it is, the, the, the fault lines are geopolitical instability, competition, market change, AI. So you can protect that flag, but as you're protecting it, that mountain is just coming down and down and down. So as a leader right now, today, the only choice you have is to look for the next peak and go. And you don't jump from the top of one mountain to the top of the next mountain. You jump from the top of one mountain to the side of the next mountain and you're holding on like this. And all the people you lead are tethered to you.

• 2:04:08Speaker 02

  You're taking them with you.

• 2:04:09Speaker 00

  You're taking them with you. And I mean, let's just be honest, like, I think y'all are smart, fun, but I'm gonna take my chances going alone if we have to leap. If we, if you and I have to, if the three of us, for some reason, have to leap out this window, I'm gonna be like, I hope I see y'all again on the pickleball court.

• 2:04:29Speaker 00

  But it actually doesn't work, because if you're my team and the three of us don't make it together.

• 2:04:37Speaker 02

  The survivor is useless.

• 2:04:38Speaker 00

  Then the survival is useless. So then we have to be like, oh shit, man, we have five minutes, the three of us have to go together. What, how do we think we do it?

• 2:04:45Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 2:04:46Speaker 00

  You know, and no idea can be stupid. You're like, we find a giant crane, we swing from it. And then I can't say, shut the fuck up. I'm like, okay, what kind of crane? And this is why, this is why I just, I was hoping I could work this in. This is why you saw the world full of people crying and cheering for Artemis 2.

• 2:05:10Speaker 00

  What we saw were four people from very different lived experiences who looked different,

• 2:05:17Speaker 00

  loving each other, kind to each other.

• 2:05:19Speaker 02

  Needing each other.

• 2:05:20Speaker 00

  Needing each other, facing complex challenges together and winning.

• 2:05:25Speaker 02

  And definite uncertainty.

• 2:05:28Speaker 00

  Defined by uncertainty.

• 2:05:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%. That was the bedrock of it all.

• 2:05:31Speaker 00

  That's, that was, that, that was the, yeah. And I'm lucky enough to have taken those four folks, along with all the earthbound astronauts at the time, through Dare to Lead.

• 2:05:39Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:05:39Speaker 00

  And what I can tell you is, when they're problem solving, if you're like, okay, we're on like, we're on the 20th floor, we're gonna have to go.

• 2:05:50Speaker 00

  We're gonna have to get out the window and we're gonna have to go and then we have to stay together. When you're sitting at the table and there's thousands of engineers that are involved in something like Artemis 2, not just engineers, just...

• 2:06:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:06:02Speaker 00

  When someone says, "We build a giant crane and we hang it from a cloud." No one says, "Dude, shut up." They're like, "Tell me about the crane. What's the crane made of?" The guy goes, "Legos." The woman goes, "Okay, Duplo or Lego Legos." Like, they are... It's trust.

• 2:06:23Speaker 02

  They're willing to venture into the unknown.

• 2:06:26Speaker 00

  They are willing...

• 2:06:27Speaker 02

  Tell me more.

• 2:06:28Speaker 00

  Tell me more.

• 2:06:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. How does... What would happen if... Yeah. What is that?

• 2:06:34Speaker 00

  Because then they all of a sudden they go, "Okay, so what... Let me play back," which is one of my favorite tools that we teach leaders. "Let me play back what you're saying. We're gonna build a giant crane."

• 2:06:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:06:40Speaker 00

  "It's going to be out of Legos at the bottom, but Duplo at the top. It's gonna swing from a cloud and it's gonna grab the capsule and get it upright before the Navy can get there and get them out. Is that what you're saying?" And you're like, "That's what I think we could do." "Okay, don't we have something like that? Don't we have a clown hook crane over in Payload that we were working on a couple of years ago?" And the guy's, "Yeah." I mean, it's not a giant crane, but it does operate with a lever like a crane. Okay.

• 2:07:07Speaker 02

  Playback.

• 2:07:08Speaker 00

  So, the playback. Because what happens a lot of times, especially in feedback, is I say to you, "Here's what I think is going wrong. I think you are doing incredible work. You're saying yes to too much and you're not able to deliver everything on time because you're saying yes across all these meetings. I want to help you set the right boundaries at the right time." And you're like, "Okay." And I said, "No, no. Eugene, play back what you think you're hearing."

• 2:07:33Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:07:34Speaker 00

  And then you say, "I'm an asshole. I'm gonna get fired." Because that's a lot of times what...

• 2:07:39Speaker 02

  If I carry on this way, I won't be here for long.

• 2:07:41Speaker 00

  Right. Okay. Okay, so what you heard me saying is if you carry on this way, you're not gonna be here for long, right? So, we need to do this again then. Because what I'm saying is you're doing excellent work. You're taking on too much. It's not good for you. And there's no way you can deliver against those things. Play it back again.

• 2:08:00Speaker 02

  You're doing too much, Eugene. You're carrying this podcast on your shoulders. Driven is to wear less sweaters.

• 2:08:10Speaker 00

  Wait, did y'all decide on the white t-shirt?

• 2:08:12Trevor Noah?

  Can I tell you?

• 2:08:15Trevor Noah?

  Can I tell you my greatest joy in life? My greatest joy.

• 2:08:20Speaker 02

  You should come here often.

• 2:08:21Trevor Noah?

  Is when, is when I'm wearing the same outfit as one of my friends. Because they hate it.

• 2:08:27Speaker 02

  You don't know.

• 2:08:28Trevor Noah?

  I walked out of my apartment and Eugene was there. And I literally went, I was like, "Carnekin, boys!" And his face dropped. You could see Eugene was like. This, he, he just, I get so happy. I'll start singing to my friends sometimes, like if I see them and we walk out of wearing the same thing. I'll be like, "My best friend, the best friends forever." And they're just like, "I hate this with a passion."

• 2:08:54Speaker 02

  You have no idea how this has messed up the algorithm. Because since we started shooting this season, I was thinking, I was monitoring the outfits. I was like, "Okay, t-shirt, jacket, jacket, shirt, t-shirt, jacket."

• 2:09:05Speaker 00

  The algorithm.

• 2:09:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I knew. So today I timed it properly.

• 2:09:08Trevor Noah?

  My algorithm.

• 2:09:09Speaker 02

  Yes. There's an algorithm here for outfits. And I was like, "Okay, colors, colors, what are we going now? A bit of topia, brown, brown, okay, now we're going earth colors." And I was like, "Okay, so a split, a kind of blue and a white, a lot of vibrancy and color and sweater." It's totally off of my algorithm. Then I was like, "There's no way."

• 2:09:29Speaker 00

  This is not your normal fit?

• 2:09:31Trevor Noah?

  No, nowhere close.

• 2:09:33Speaker 02

  Then I was like, I calculated properly. I was like, "I know, I know, this is not gonna happen. He's not gonna be wearing anything that has a hint of blue and brightness on it. And why would he wear a jersey or a sweater after all of this time? Because he hasn't done it. We've been, never."

• 2:09:49Trevor Noah?

  You know why you ended up here, Eugene?

• 2:09:52Trevor Noah?

  Is because you were trying not to dress like me out of fear. And I got here because I was trying to dress out of love.

• 2:10:01Speaker 00

  You weren't walking towards your fit, you were walking away from his fit.

• 2:10:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. And that's how we ended up here, my friend.

• 2:10:07Speaker 02

  You did the playback in real time. I hate you!

• 2:10:11Speaker 00

  He just invited me back. But I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna confess something. I did, when we sat down, I did try to see if you had a beaded bracelet on. Because I thought maybe y'all planned something.

• 2:10:24Trevor Noah?

  Oh, no.

• 2:10:25Speaker 00

  Because he does, and I thought maybe that was cute. That you're like-

• 2:10:28Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I wish I had.

• 2:10:29Speaker 00

  Cardigan-

• 2:10:30Trevor Noah?

  But I would never do it on purpose, but I was just like-

• 2:10:32Speaker 00

  But I thought it was cute. I thought it was like Cardigan Crew magic.

• 2:10:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we do indeed. We do indeed.

• 2:10:38Speaker 02

  Why do you have a jingle?

• 2:10:39Trevor Noah?

  I love it, actually. This has been, it's been amazing. This has been- Eugene's not wrong. You've got to come back. This is part one.

• 2:10:47Speaker 00

  Oh, my god.

• 2:10:47Trevor Noah?

  This is just part one. Pinky promise. This is part one.

• 2:10:50Speaker 02

  They're fools. Let's go.

• 2:10:51Trevor Noah?

  Part one.

• 2:10:52Speaker 00

  Walk on.

• 2:10:54Trevor Noah?

  Walk on with hope in your heart. And you'll never walk alone. You'll never walk alone. Yeah.

• 2:11:15Speaker 00

  Woo!

• 2:11:20Trevor Noah?

  That's a vuvuzela. I need to take a vuvuzela to Anfield. Just to test my membership.

• 2:11:31Trevor Noah?

  This was so much fun. Thank you, Brinny. For real. Shout out to Steve.

• 2:11:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. Thanks. Shit. Water.

• 2:11:44Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackel. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Parduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now.