Salugenology (WHY HUMANS REQUIRE HOBBIES) Part 2 with Julia Hotz

It’s Part 2 of how to fix your life with hobbies! Pretty much. Journalist/author of “The Connection Cure” Julia Hotz explains the science behind forest bathing, how privilege affects accessibility to hobbies and what to do about it, how to figure out what lights you up, how to schedule time for hobbies if you have no time to do hobbies, why I used to call my old job at newspaper Club Karoshi, what if social interaction gives you the willies, what if depression keeps you from doing the things that lift depression, being social without having to spend money or get wasted, why volunteering is such an antidepressant, why rehabs use social prescribing, if protesting is a good hobby, and why you should go take a walk. Also: did I go to the ukulele meeting or chicken out?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alie Ward?

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• 0:29Alie Ward?

  Oh, trips are full of unexpected discoveries. Maybe you see a sea slug, or you find out that your friend still sleeps with a stuffed animal. But when it comes to your vacation rental, there should not be any surprises. When you book a Verbo vacation rental, if what you expect isn't what you get, Verbo Care has you covered. If something's broken or just not right, Verbo will work to make it right. Plus, you get 24/7 live human support with every booking. Grab your stuffy, we're going on vacay. So book today on the Verbo app. If you know, you Verbo. Terms apply. See verbo.com/trust for details. This podcast is brought to you by Aura. Your body has a lot going on. Sleep, stress, recovery. You would be surprised how connected it all is.

• 1:13Alie Ward?

  Aura Ring tracks more than 50 metrics from your finger, and the Aura app brings that information together to help you see patterns across your sleep and stress, activity, and more, so you can start connecting the dots and figure out what works for you. Learn more at aura ring.com. Wear your best life with Aura. Oh, hey, it's still the guy at the falafel truck who gives you extra hummus, Ali Ward. And here is part two of one of my favorite episodes we've ever done. Here we are. This is science-based advice on how to balance your work with your real life, how to get your little sparkle back even when the world is raining turds. It's hobbies, pastimes, community, and according to this guest, the author of the book The

• 1:57Alie Ward?

  Connection Cure, it's the prescriptive power of movement, nature, art, service, and belonging. And I couldn't put that whole thing in the subtitle. And if I just wrote, "social prescribing," you're like, "I don't know what that is." So that's why, it's why humans need hobbies. That's very much in a nutshell. Anyway, to hear all the foundations, including the etymology and the history of this field, so many examples in papers, and why this guest doesn't like the title of her own book. You just hop your beautiful butt back to part one. Okay, start there. Come meet us back here, part two. So let's get to part two. But first, thank you patrons for supporting the show for as little as $1 a month and submitting your questions. We couldn't do the show without you. Thanks to everyone walking around in Ologies merch.

• 2:40Alie Ward?

  We have some summer stuff like hats and even bathing suits you can wear. Also, we have Smallologies episodes for free in their own feed, wherever you get podcasts. If you're looking for shorter swear-free episodes that are suitable for classrooms and people sensitive to swearing, those Smallologies episodes, linked in the show notes, tell everyone. Also, for free, thank you for supporting Ologies by leaving reviews. They really matter. I read them all and then I pick one to spotlight as proof. And this week, Liv LW called Ologies "Your Favorite Scientist's Favorite Science Podcast", which means the world to me. And they said, "This is a science podcast that all my fellow grad students listen to. I love the enthusiasm, the humor, the heartfelt moments, and you know I'm listening to those

• 3:24Alie Ward?

  Spooktober episodes all year long. Thank you for that." Livy LW, it means a lot. Also, look up our Spooktober, episodes are so good. Okay, saliogenology, part two. It's all about social prescribing and so many occupational therapists, by the way, listened to part one and said that they were like screaming and just bellowing with joy. So here's a shout out to all the occupational therapists who know firsthand that this stuff works. So sit tight, knit a scarf. Let's hear about forest bathing, taking life lessons from rehab, how privilege affects accessibility to hobbies and what to do about that, why I used to call all-night writing sessions at the newspaper Club Karoshi, how to forest bathe most effectively as researched by science, how capitalism literally kills us, how to figure out what lights you up,

• 4:09Alie Ward?

  how to schedule time for hobbies if you have no time for hobbies, free stuff you can get to make you happier, what if social interaction gives you the willies? What if depression keeps you from doing the things that lift depression? How do you hang out in a culture that's so substance-based? Is there any data to support chilling out? Where to volunteer to check off a lot of life-improving boxes if protesting is a good hobby? And once again, why a fuck you walk is an act of defiance? With author, journalist, deep diver, and absolutely lovely and altruistic person, and saliogenologist Julia Jewels-Hotts in this part two.

• 5:02Alie Ward?

  Okay, so we ended part one right before we got to the Patreon questions, and she was down to clown a bit longer. So let's hear from patrons of the show who submitted their questions in advance. You can do that via patreon.com/ologies. You can join for as little as a dollar a month. And we also have options to leave voice questions. So you can be like, hey, that's me, such as someone who calls themselves So Many Questions, first time question asker, says,

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Hi, Ali and Julia. What are the hallmarks of good activities for social prescriptions? I'm absolutely not going to be replacing the practitioners who should do actual prescribing for my family and friends, but have had some good intention suggestions backfire or just fall short. What was I missing in my suggestions that didn't actually reach the goal we had?

• 5:47Alie Ward?

  Let's say someone has tried social subscribing and it didn't quite do it for them. Do you feel like it has to hit a couple of those buttons to maybe really gel? Or how do you find the right social prescribing that's going to work for you?

• 6:03Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So I think there's a couple of things there. Love these questions, So Many Questions. And I also think that, were they suggestions? Or were they prescriptions? It's one thing to say, hey, you should volunteer more, you should exercise more. It's another to say, hey, there's one spot left in this, you know, ukulele class that meets on Wednesday nights. And I know that's when you have an early day. So it works for your schedule. I'm going to prescribe you a spot and I'm going to check in and I'm going to follow up. And I vetted it, right? And so what I should say also, and this is again where the US could learn a lot, but in the UK and other places that have social prescribing, there's a position called the link worker that's hired by the doctor's office

• 6:47Speaker 02

  or the therapist's office, whose job it is to actually spend a long time with the patients. Instead of 15 minutes, they get 60.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Get to know what really, really matters to them. So the prescription is going to be much more specific and tailored to what matters to the person. And then the rest of their time is spent vetting the groups in the community.

• 7:09Alie Ward?

  Oh, so there's literally a job when social prescribing is offered of a link worker who figures out what will be good for you and where and when it happens and if it's actually good or reliable. That's usually part of the deal.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  So it might be for so many questions that they maybe suggested a group, but you know, that group kind of sucked or that group, maybe it didn't suck, but maybe it wasn't the right fit for the right person. And I also think, look, I know lots of things matter to people. So I think the more specific you can make the question, making it, you know, help people reflect on things they loved to do as a kid, things they would do if they had more time in their week, the last time they experienced awe, what's the thing that makes you light up when you talk about it? What's the thing that you could spend eight hours doing and there's absolutely no distraction in the world that could pull you from that? The more you can get closer to those kinds of what matters to you questions and the

• 8:08Speaker 02

  more you can prescribe, not suggest a specific activity that corresponds to it, I think you'll have more success.

• 8:16Alie Ward?

  And a recent guide published by the Global Social Prescribing Alliance in conjunction with the World Health Organization titled, "Social Prescribing Around the World: A World Map of Global Developments and Social Prescribing Across Different Health System Contexts," offers case studies for 24 different countries from England to Canada, Portugal, India, Iran, Poland, Japan, USA, South Korea, Italy, a bunch more, dozens of them. And in 2019, we did an episode titled, "Field Trip: How to Change Your Life," via the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles. And it took me until this aside to realize that's exactly why volunteering at the museum did change my life. I was in an environment that thrilled me.

• 8:58Alie Ward?

  I was being of service, teaching random adults or school groups about bugs or coyote pelts. And I got To hang out in the morning meetings with other volunteers from retirees to grad students. And I even got some good walking around the halls and in the nature gardens there. And I'll link that episode in the show notes, but even years after I volunteered there, it continues to change my life every day. This podcast wouldn't exist without that. It was inspired by the museum and I was able to fully return to my most authentic self. It was a huge, huge change in my life. So let me be a case study that this shit really does work. Figure out what lights you up.

• 9:41Alie Ward?

  Get yourself there like your life depends on it. It just might. Now, I was lucky at the time, though, to be freelance with a flexible schedule. So I could accommodate one three hour window a week to go get paid $0. Not everyone has that. And Theo Klein asked about economic privilege when it comes to social prescribing. Where is a park says, I love this and I wish we didn't have to prescribe things that seem so inherently human, but asked, how do you address patients' concerns around scarcity? Like scarcity of time, childcare, money, et cetera. And those thoughts were also on the minds of Chelsea and her dog Charlie and others. And what about barriers? Rachel Guthrie asked, how do people overcome financial barriers or lack of leisure time to participate in social prescription?

• 10:26Alie Ward?

  Cheeseburger asked, what if you don't have time? Eating dog hair for a living wants to know how you can follow through and not have it interfere with work. And then also London Noel asked, as a teacher in Spoonie, I have very limited free time and limited energy. For more on Spoonies and chronic health conditions, you can see our recent two-part long COVID episodes or our Disability Pride episode, which we will link in the show notes. David said, how, what about if you're concerned about contagious diseases? So overcoming these various barriers, I know those are Yeah. different prongs, but. Yeah, well, let's take time because that is the big one, right? And that actually corresponds to a story from the book about this woman named Heather, lives in Vermont, working three jobs, is the primary caretaker for her grandmother.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Is someone who has always loved being outside, but yet because of the stressors of her life, she's forced to spend most of it inside. Until she goes to her doctor. The doctor says, you know, we're running this pilot with this group. Come alive outside. They host these awesome activities for people, you know, dealing like Heather was dealing with stress and all these kinds of health issues. You know, can I prescribe you a spot in it? And at first Heather is thinking like, I don't have time for that. But then, you know, when the doctor and when the research frames this as being in nature is actually something that restores your attention and can make you feel like you have more time. That totally changes it.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  And that was true for Heather. Right? It's not like she could magically make her three jobs go away. It's not like she could stop being her grandmother's caregiver. But because those two hours a week that was a doctor prescribed activity, the same way we would be judicious about going to our therapy sessions. If we can have that sort of same level of seriousness and dedication paid to our social prescriptions, then I think people would find, like Heather found, that not only was there the two hours a week for it, but that it was something she wanted to put more into her schedule. Because again, the feelings of stress and burnout that so many of us are dealing with it, I would say for all of these five kinds of social prescriptions,

• 12:41Speaker 02

  but especially nature, this can make us feel like we have our time back.

• 12:48Alie Ward?

  And again, those five facets are movement, art, nature, service, and belonging.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  There's actually a really cool study related to this time point. There were these Japanese businessmen in the 1970s and 1980s who were severely, severely overworked. I mean, they were working like 70, 80 hours a week. Reports of heart failure, reports of suicide, very tragically. All of this went up, up, up as their workload did. So actually, in this kind of wild government campaign, as a public health thing, the government said, you know what? We need to do something about this chronic burnout stress. There was a word for it. Karoshi. And they said, we are going to prescribe you time in the forest. We're going to invest in this campaign called Shinrin Yoku Forest Bathing

• 13:39Speaker 02

  because we believe that you being in this forest environment is going to reverse some of those stress responses. So they invested in this big time. They took these stressed out businessmen in Tokyo. Of course, it was men at first, but then the women. And they found that just like a little bit of time in the forest dramatically reduced their blood pressure, dramatically increased their production of natural killer cells, which go on to fight cancer. All of these sort of physiological markers of stress went down, down, down, down, down, down. And when you do that, not only are you preventing heart disease, mental health conditions down the line, but you're also giving those businessmen

• 14:24Speaker 02

  better tools to cope with their feelings of stress and burnout in the present.

• 14:28Alie Ward?

  In her book, Julia details that later studies with different demographics, not just businessmen, showed forest bathers had other health gains, like increased serotonin and lowered adrenaline and cortisol, which are stress hormones, as well as lower blood pressure and heart rate. And they reported less anxiety, depression, anger, fatigue, and confusion. And for more, you can see the 2022 studies, Effects of Forest Environment on Health Promotion and Disease Prevention, which can help us understand the difference between just chilling in the woods versus forest bathing. They're kind of the same, but the latter is a little more immersive. So forest bathing, at its best, engages all your senses. And the paper details sight, green color, yellow color and red color,

• 15:14Alie Ward?

  forest landscape, hearing, forest sounds, listen to the birds singing and the breeze rustling in the leaves, touch, touching trees, put your whole body in the forest atmosphere. It says, hey. involves eating foods and fruits from the forest or tasting the fresh air. And smell, which says special good smell, fragrance from trees and flowers. And we also touch on the so many reasons to huff a tree in the dendrology episodes with J. Casey Clapp and in the forest entomology one with Dr. Kristen Wickert. And we also have a bryology episode about moss with the actual Dr. Robin Wall Kimmerer, who is wonderful and we'll link those in the show notes.

• 15:55Alie Ward?

  I am at this point very sold on never living my life without forest bathing on the reg. Sign me up. I'm into it. Forest bathing. I love that that's a term that is starting to catch on. Just kicking it in the forest. It needed its own term. It needed like a verb behind it. And Honey Bear said, what about connecting with other nature beings? For example, I consider the forest to be one of my most supportive communities and feel deeply nourished by spending time with my tree friends. And then Kathleen Sack said that they've taken up wildlife photography and bird watching. And that days spent bird watching are really grounding because it involves tuning into more than one sense at a time. You're using sight and sound.

• 16:37Alie Ward?

  But we did have people to, you know, going through the social and community aspect of it. We had a ton of people. Self-described very socially anxious gal, Megan Recleff, Addie Capello, Sadie Vipon, and. Olive Wing, first time question asker, his words said, is there any difference in success rates for social prescribing for neurodivergent people versus neurotypical? And they say, as someone with autism, socializing can cause extreme stress and mental exhaustion. Is there a right or wrong way to go about this technique as someone who's autistic to make it less stressful? And we had a ton of people. Desert Paint Frog, Zach Everate, Pere Granova, Robin Stumbo, Susan G., who asked, in Robin's words, do you have any tips for people who have a lot of anxiety around social situations? Or are introverts?

• 17:19Alie Ward?

  So yeah, let's say that hanging out with new people especially is like a lesson in sweaty palms and bubble gut. Absolutely. What do you do?

• 17:30Speaker 02

  You are absolutely right to feel that way. And I'm so grateful for these questions because let's be honest, you know, social prescribing, not a great name, especially if your baseline is somebody who struggles with social anxiety. Like, that sounds like hell. So what I would say is that I have a story to back this up. In the book, there was a man named Nick who dealt with social anxiety, ADHD, identified as neurodivergent. If I had told him about there's a thing called social prescribing, doctors are prescribing activities that promote connection, he would have said, hell, no, I'm so out, like, as anybody would, right? That gives them, you know, palm sweats and all that stuff. What instead happened with Nick is that he happened to love fishing,

• 18:16Speaker 02

  very solitary activity, very sort of peaceful activity. You know, not a lot of small talk going on in the pond, let me tell you. When you're fishing, like, you have to be really focused on the water. And so Nick, organically, as somebody who loves fishing and would do this by himself in his spare free time, would go out there, would fish, saw a group doing it. And the leader of that group eventually came up to Nick and said, you know, asked him very specific questions about fishing, which people with sort of neurodivergence, they tend to love to talk about specific topics that are of interest to them.

• 18:52Speaker 03

  Wait, is this fucking play about us?

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Eventually, Nick ends up joining this group. It's called Tackling Minds. Yeah, I know you'd love that pun. Started by somebody who also identified sort of on the neurodivergent spectrum and really made it a place where nobody had to talk to each other. If you wanted to come and just post up with your rod and be silent the whole day, you could totally do that. And, you know, ironically, in an episode about health, I'll say that when I went to visit this social prescription, they're all like smoking cigarettes, they're drinking Pepsis out of the bottle, like, not typically the things we associate with health. But for those people, because of the environment, it didn't encourage inauthentic connection. It just encouraged people who happened to all love fishing to

• 19:39Alie Ward?

  Do it together. I think that is what really was effective for Nick and is what I would say to listeners who might feel like this sounds really scary. I would say that there are lots of groups that are tailored to the interests and needs of people with different, you know, connection preferences. Yeah, the idea of a quiet circle, but you're all doing the same thing also sounds great. As someone who talks for a living, sometimes in social situations, I just want to sit there like a lump. Absolutely. You know, just because I talk all day. I love talking all day. I love my job, but sometimes I just want to just kick it and not have to think of what I'm going to say. Yeah. So that's cool. That's also where it seems like a music group could be great because you're mostly just making music.

• 20:24Alie Ward?

  Right. You're Yukan. Yeah. You're Yukan. And, you know, it's funny because obviously I'm sure that you get a lot of skepticism or people who we have a lot of questions of like, but really? Because it seems like it can't be that simple, even though we can probably separate anthropologically. That, yes, we did evolve to have these things give us some sort of chemical reward because they kept us alive. Right? And according to a 2022 article from Harvard titled Power of Social Interactions and the Desire for Connectedness, Desire for Connectedness, for connected, for connect, and the desire for connectedness to empower health and wellness. Yes, humans, quote, are wired to connect and this connection affects our health.

• 21:09Alie Ward?

  It says, there is significant evidence that social support and feeling connected can help people maintain a healthy body composition, control blood sugars, improve cancer survival, decrease cardiovascular mortality, decrease depressive symptoms, mitigate PTSD and improve overall mental health. And it says that the opposite of connection, which is social isolation, has a negative effect on health and can increase depressive symptoms as well as mortality. So prescribing social interactions and encouraging friendships has the potential to have a healing effect on patients. And social connection, they say, should be treated as a vital sign. Much like physical activity.

• 21:51Alie Ward?

  Now, part of the chemistry behind this relates to oxytocin release, which is a bonding hormone. And it works in concert with something called GABA inhibitory neurons to lower anxiety and up serotonin, which affects mood regulation. And it increases dopamine, which is a neurotransmitter involved in the reward system, which creates feelings of pleasure and it helps executive function. Also, may I use this aside, if I may, if I may, to platform the taking smoke breaks, like 10 minutes, once or twice a day to be outside and chat with people. It's probably very healthy, except for the smoking part. And I propose that we bring them back, but we call them apple gaps or we call them fruit interludes.

• 22:33Alie Ward?

  And nobody smokes, but we can fully normalize going downstairs or stepping outside to eat a small piece of fruit and chat with people. And then when you finish the fruit, you're back inside doing whatever you're doing. I'm currently obsessed with a variety of apple called Rocket, which are very small crunchy ones. And they take like five to seven minutes to eat leisurely. And we're more on how apple varieties are even made, which is fascinating. Trust me, we have a whole pomology episode if you don't believe me. But yes, apple gaps, fruit interludes, little tiny apples, hang outside, chat with a stranger or a coworker. Tell your boss to get on my level. A few people asked about skepticism. Matt Herschel asked, is this hippie dippy or for real?

• 23:18Alie Ward?

  And Meghan Morgan wanted to know, is social prescription a valid suggestion? Or is it a fad recommendation? How do scientists address that? Yeah, it's a great question because again, even the name like social prescribing, sounds a little hippie dippy, sounds a little trendy and sounds like hell for introverts especially. I think again, it comes down to looking at the strength of the evidence around prescribing these kinds of ingredients, around interventions with nature, around interventions with exercise, around interventions with art.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  The way that longitudinal studies tell us that service and belonging are extraordinarily powerful for our longevity, it's almost like we have to put the pieces together. Because I do think, you know, it is easy to dismiss this as just another fad. But at the same time, I mean, I would love to see a study that says nature is bad for us. I would love to see a study that says engaging with the art worsens our health. In some ways, it's almost so obvious that it's hard to believe we're not doing it.

• 24:21Alie Ward?

  I thought maybe it was goofy or hippie, but no. Social prescribing is a term used globally with the World Health Organization. It's just new and we haven't heard much about it yet. Well, it's not very new. Anthropologists know that this human behavior predates antibiotics and cardiac bypass surgery. But of course, we don't just want one or the other.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  I think the problem becomes when we start to talk about this stuff as a replacement for other kinds of medicine. And that's absolutely not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that this should be an option on the menu for people who are mildly curious about it. This is not about taking away any other options. But I do think it's going to take us a while until we have that really, really golden, large-scale, sort of, national pilot study data showing that, yeah, like, this is legit. You know, right now, it's a lot of sort of piecing together the evidence around the many different aspects of this.

• 25:22Alie Ward?

  And, you know, on this skepticism note, some people wanted to know the dangers. Kelly Shaver asked, how can social prescribing go wrong? What are the dangers? Prince Nocturnal wanted to know, how do we make sure that BIPOC-disabled people, trans people, women, et cetera, feel safe in social activities?

• 25:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:38Alie Ward?

  And how can we cultivate an environment in which the challenges of putting yourself out there as a marginalized person can be discussed? Jade Sullivan said many minority communities have a longstanding tradition of caring for one another through mutual aid networks or alternative kinship. How do factors such as race and gender and sexuality and class influence that social connectedness? Is there a danger at all? Or what considerations should be given to people who are in minority communities?

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, hugely, absolutely. And that's why, you know, in the group I talk about, first of all, like, the particular health consequences of racism, of exclusion. To be systemically disconnected is horrible for our health. And so we need to take a lot of care when we're prescribing something that aims to reconnect. And that's why one of the groups I talk about, this is in Toronto. It's called the Black Focused Social Prescribing Group. It's precisely run by, for and with, Black people, incorporating Afrocentric healing principles, dance classes, cooking classes, play tickets. And it's also covering transportation, food, all of the things that, you know,

• 26:48Speaker 02

  we might forget in our highly unequal society could prevent somebody from coming. So I think those are the dangers, is one, like, not anticipating the very real economic barriers that people have. When social prescribing is done well, it does do this. When social prescribing is not done well, it doesn't. It's just, you know, a prescription for a place and you're on your own to get there. And, oh, it's in the middle of your workday? Too bad. That's when it's bad. I also think sort of safety and group belonging is huge. Like, for this woman, Victoria, who gets prescribed a spot in this Black Focused Social Prescribing Group, getting to know other people in her community who had shared similar experiences to her, who could sort of relate on this unspoken level, was hugely important.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  And so I think, just like considering the socioeconomic barriers is really, really important when we talk about doing this systemically, it's also important, I think, that we do this in partnership with the groups that already have this programming. Ideally with a person such as a link worker, a community connector. In Singapore, they're called wellbeing coaches. Somebody whose job it is to, A, really get to know the person who's being offered the social prescription, and B, to really get to know the community. Like, if I prescribe my patient this, are they going to be the only Black person or woman there? Anticipating concretely those kinds of things is really, really important. And if we don't, yeah, that's how it could go wrong.

• 28:18Alie Ward?

  I know we're talking too about it in more of an official setting, but let's say that you don't have the resources to maybe have someone facilitate this for you. What are some things that you suggest? Like even if you just want to fire off a list of some things that people can start to look into on their own if they don't have like a liaison who's finding them a class?

• 28:41Speaker 04

  Down and dirty DIY style.

• 28:44Speaker 02

  Heck, yeah, I'm so glad you asked that question because absolutely we don't have to wait for healthcare. I mean, ideally, we should. Healthcare should be doing this. And how great would it be if our insurance companies and our doctors prescribed this as easily as they prescribed everything else? The reality is, we're not there yet. So what can we do in the meantime? This was the focus of part three and of my website, socialprescribing.co, which is basically a catalog of free or very low cost donation based groups that people can prescribe themselves spots in in the meantime.

• 29:17Alie Ward?

  Cool.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  I would say a great place to start is in your local parks department. They have so much unbelievable programming, very often free. Same with our libraries. Our libraries are amazing. These are these master connectors. And gosh, I'm so hopeful for a future where healthcare can actually like create some revenue for the amazing services that they do. In the meantime, prescribe yourself. Where I live in New York, there's something called Culture Pass, which also gives you free access to museums and art institutions just by having a New York City library card. And then there's so many nonprofits around the country that are trying to do,

• 29:59Speaker 02

  you know, more running groups, more storytelling groups, opportunities to volunteer. Also, check out that website for questions you can ask on where to begin, like even thinking about what is the ideal social prescription for me?

• 30:13Alie Ward?

  So yes, again, her website is socialprescribing.co and we're putting so many links to these studies on our website at alieword.com/ologies/salugenology, both of which are linked in the show notes in case you're right now riding a horse with no pen.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  A few people asked, maybe the social prescription involves critters. Honeybear, Lisa Gorman, Earl of Grimilken, Raina, Peregrine and Julia Taylor. Julia Taylor asked, is horse therapy a thing for real? Prescribing people to hang out with horses? Honeybear wants to know, does the prescription need to be with other humans or does connecting with animals, companions or otherwise compare in terms of efficiency? Raina asked about emotional support animals. So yeah, I think animals. And again, this goes back to the research showing about how much our bodies just relax when we're in nature. Animals absolutely need to be and are part of social prescribing. In fact, I know a doctor in Canada who literally

• 31:09Speaker 02

  prescribes her patients' visits to, you know, dog shelters and dog rescue communities and volunteering with dogs. Absolutely. That is so, so real. And even when it's not like a specific prescription for that, when, for example, in Australia, there's a really big initiative right now to prescribe nature to people who are lonely.

• 31:31Alie Ward?

  And this is orchestrated by some of the researchers behind the 2024 paper, Connecting Through Nature: A Systematic Review of the Effectiveness of Nature-Based Social Prescribing Practices to Combat Loneliness.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  And part of the like sort of course in this prescription is going on sniff walks, is literally like walking through an open field and smelling the different trees and critters. Another one, a huge one, is bird watching. In Australia, it's also bat watching. And part of forest bathing too, as some of your listeners have said, and we talked about earlier, is about engaging with all five senses in a natural environment. And so that might include noticing critters you may not have noticed before. So I think they're absolutely a key, key part of what matters to us and of what makes us healthy. Like,

• 32:21Speaker 02

  it's not a coincidence that we all love dogs and, you know, the little inner Alie Ward child in us like loved exploring bugs in an open field. There's something very primal and real about that in our physiology.

• 32:36Alie Ward?

  I mean, just they definitely take you out of the sometimes main character syndrome that we might have where we are starring in a tragedy. They take you out of this sort of solipsism that depression can create.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Cat people, I see you. Lizard parents out there, I love you. Bee watchers, keep at it. We have episodes for all those critters. We're going to link them in the show notes. But also, we have our recent ethnoscology episode about why humans love dogs the most because they're the best.

• 33:05Alie Ward?

  I had a question about this, and Lizzie also asked, as someone with anxiety that I'm finally treating after a long battle against myself to getting the help I needed, I've found that a combination of medication and therapy has been most effective, and asked essentially, what is the push that usually gets people to consider as a first step? And I wanted to ask a little bit about medication in conjunction with social prescribing, because as someone with anxiety and who's medicated, I know that coming off of it can be absolutely rough. I have friends, you know, who have bipolar disorder who say just opting for something like social prescribing could be detrimental. How do you make sure that that people don't take themselves off something that they really need?

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a great question. And I would say oftentimes, this was true for about half of the people I interviewed in the book, it is conjunction, right? So I can't say it enough times that this is not aiming to replace medication. So it's not just like, all right, you know, time to cut you off the meds and I'm going to prescribe in art class now. Like, absolutely not. I would recommend actually trying them both in conjunction and then seeing, right? Because I do think oftentimes, it is that first step that's really, really hard. The trained healthcare professional will be the best person to judge, is the social prescription sort of the first line here, or is it medication first, or

• 34:29Speaker 02

  is it both? It's going to depend on a lot of factors. But I would say that not doing anything drastic to your sort of health recipe while you're also trying a social prescription is probably a good idea, right? It's probably best to keep like all the other variables as Constant as possible. And I think it can vary. I mean, for people like Amanda, she was able to go after her swimming lesson prescription from the maximum dose of SSRIs to the minimum. She's still on them in part because of the, some of the reasons you described, it can be really, really tough to get off. And she still feels like she needs them for her full health to be optimal. And that's great. Like, that's what we want, you know? The goal of this, again, is not to get anybody off any kind of medication.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  It's just to help them feel healthier where they're at with whatever their lives are and their current sort of health recipe is.

• 35:23Alie Ward?

  Yeah. Speaking of recipe and ingestibles, Matt Cicado of Woodstock, Georgia, wanted to know. Okay, we'll hear what patron Matt asked in just a sec, but first we'd love to throw some money at a good cause. Selected by Julia, who chose Grow NYC, which was born in the spirit of the first Earth Day. And their mission is to empower all New Yorkers with equitable access to fresh, locally grown food, neighborhood green spaces and care for the environment. And Julia says that Grow NYC puts out free horticultural education and field trips. They invest in green spaces so that more people, regardless of income or where you live, can have access to these medicines. And we will link them in the show notes. And thank you to Julia for the suggestion and sponsors for making it possible to support them.

• 36:09Alie Ward?

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• 36:50Alie Ward?

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• 37:34Alie Ward?

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• 38:19Alie Ward?

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• 38:52Alie Ward?

  Listen, sometimes you get out of your routine. That happened to me recently when I went out of town and I realized I forgot my Ritual Essential for Women 18+. It's a multi that I've been taking for years. And guess who landed in another country without them? Me. Didn't feel right. They contain nine key nutrients, two delayed-release capsules designed for optimal absorption. But Ritual, why do I love them so much? They have a team of scientists. They poured over thousands of studies to figure out what are common gaps that people need in their diet, but they don't actually consume. It's also designed to be gentle on the stomach. You can take it with or without food, which I love. Plus, I like that it looks like a tiny lava lamp. I tell you that every time, but it has these beads and oil. And it tastes like mint, easy down the hatch. I usually take them in the morning.

• 39:36Alie Ward?

  And the reason why I've stuck with Ritual for so many years is because my schedule's all over the place. Sometimes I'm eating breakfast, sometimes I'm running through an airport with one shoe. So instead of striving for perfect health, aim for supporting foundational health. Save 25% on your first month at ritual.com/ologies. That's ritual.com/ologies for 25% off your first month. Every time I record a Quince ad, I'm like, "Look at me, wearing head-to-toe Quince." I feel like this is enough of an ad, I can just stop here. But if you're like, huh, what is that? Quince sells clothes and shoes and bags, even stuff for your house that are classic, well-made, and priced at 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they cut out the middleman. They work directly with ethical factories.

• 40:20Alie Ward?

  So you have luxury quality pieces without a luxury price tag. Perhaps this holiday season, do you know what it feels like to get a cashmere sweater as a gift? I don't, because I'm the one getting them for people, and so can you, and they're affordable too. They also have 14-earr gold earrings, high-quality down outerwear, cozy gloves made of cashmere, leather bags, they have great bedding, cookware luggage. So whether you're giving that to you or to someone else, you can give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or you can go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too.

• 41:03Alie Ward?

  And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, just let them know it was Ologies. It's the best way to support the show. Okay, back to your questions. On deck is Patron Matt, who left us an audio message, which you can too by joining Patreon.com slash Ologies. Okay, so what say you, Matt Cicado from Woodstock, Georgia?

• 41:21Speaker 05

  How successful are prescribed activities? I once heard of somebody prescribed to run three miles a day, and eventually that did lead to success. My dad is also prescribed one glass of red wine a day, which I do find interesting. Thanks, Ali. Thank you.

• 41:42Speaker 06

  My pleasure.

• 41:42Alie Ward?

  And Sam Warner, first time question asker, said, "If we live in a place where the choice of non-drinking social activities are pretty slim, how can we change that?" Brendan and Ashley, I thought, had a great question. "How do social prescribers react to the gradual decline in third spaces that previously encouraged integration?" And H asked if this is kind of like the role of a sponsor in AA, another 12-step groups when they tell you to do service work. And I'm wondering how substances maybe have replaced this kind of social prescribing.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:17Alie Ward?

  Going to a pub or a bar is maybe where you had an activity in common, but maybe the activity ultimately left you a little bit more depressed the next day. So yeah, how does this intersect with that?

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I'll tell you a really funny story. I love all these questions. I was on a road trip recently with two of my girlfriends, one of whom grew up in Mexico, another who grew up like me in the United States. We were like in the backseat, me and my friend from the US, pigging out on Oreos, like, God, I love Oreos. I could eat this whole sleeve right now. My friend Ari, who grew up in Mexico, said, "Really?" You know, and she's a therapist, by the way. She's like, "That's interesting. Like, I love fried foods. I love nachos, but like, I've never had a sweet tooth. Why is that?" And eventually, on this very long road trip, we came to realize that part of the reason we love Oreos is because of our first memories with them. At a sleepover with your friends, kind of figuring out who you are.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Whereas Ari, she associates sleepovers with having nachos and popcorn. Okay.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Seems like such a tangent, but I think it speaks to this point about substances and third spaces. Right now, in our culture, it kind of sucks that to get the benefits of being in a place with people, getting to know new people, we also have to like, order a drink, or order the food, or do this thing that A, like, might not be accessible to people, and B, to your point, might come with all of these other health detriments down the line. So what I love about social prescribing is it say, let's isolate, let's take away the substances and just focus on the space or the activity. And it's very real. I mean, I think there's a reason why we're all talking about third spaces as a

• 44:04Speaker 02

  culture right now, because they're in decline. They've never been more important, as we're seeing, you know, rising rates of loneliness and self-reported isolation. That community center that teaches art classes on Thursday nights, it's not just a nice to have, it's not just going to have to be supported by donations, or the people who can afford classes. We can actually do this through healthcare, so that the insurer is actually reimbursing for the class, the same way we would reimburse and cover for other kinds of drugs. So, that to me, is really, really exciting. But I think this is what I tried to do in part three. There has to be this cultural revolution, too, that we want this.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  I've seen the way that there have been a rise in non-alcoholic drinks, or really intentional spaces and communities that meet for the sake of meeting, and it's not built around alcohol or a substance. I think the rise of that speaks to our sort of cultural demand for, we've had it, we know that buying stuff and continuing to sort of like, socialize in the places we've been conditioned to, it's not cutting it anymore. What else you got for that? What else you got for us? And that's really exciting to me.

• 45:20Alie Ward?

  So, demanding more community spaces and activities. So we're not just spending $120 going out to dinner to shout over loud music. Let's riot in favor of this. All those who are with me say, twice monthly craft afternoon with nice strangers or friends. Twice monthly craft afternoon with nice strangers or friends. Although craft supplies can also be habit-forming.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  Did you ever study any rehabs when you were doing this? Any kind of like, daily activities or weekly activities? Yeah, so the 12-step question, I forgot to address that. And that's related to the rehab. I love that. I have a friend, actually, who's in AA right now and really resonated with this book because it's really about the what matters to you question. It's amazing how so many different disciplines, rehabs, you know, centers have all kind of congregated their philosophy and curriculum around this idea.

• 46:12Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Let's focus on the things and the people and environments that make you feel the healthiest, that make you feel like the person that you are, that understand that this thing that you're going through right now, nothing is broken in you, right? You are not just the product of this disease, or this affliction, or this hardship. There's also all these other things about you. And so kind of like Doc Zoff says on the Dolorology episode, all of these sort of rehabs and therapy programs and orientations related to social prescribing really come down to asking that question. What can we do to build your health plate?

• 46:58Speaker 02

  What would make you feel healthy? There's sort of like the categorical things, like social connection and a sense of purpose. But then there's like the specific things, like ukulele classes and bird watching and, you know, volunteering to teach young kids about bugs. I mean, what are the things that make you feel like you are who you are? That should be considered medicine.

• 47:23Alie Ward?

  Also, I do want to give a shout out to rehabs because they are living in the future, which as it turns out, is also our evolutionary past. So, most rehabilitation facilities, or even outpatient intensive care, use these ways of social prescribing in conjunction with tailored medications to help people break out of an addiction cycle or recover from mental health episodes. So what is on the daily schedule at rehab? Turns out, regular exercise, community activities, art therapy, yoga, music therapy, equine therapies, learning new skills and taking

• 47:58Speaker 02

  Classes, group therapy sessions, exploring some new hobbies to replace cravings or compulsions and helping others process trauma by sharing your own journeys. So all of these are proven ways to build confidence and connect with others and understand ourselves more deeply. So if these are tried and true strategies to help people completely change their lives, sometimes from rock bottom, it's worth a shot for getting through a tough breakup or grief or loneliness.

• 48:28Alie Ward?

  On the topic, last question from listeners. A lot of people asked about practitioners. Janet wanted to know, who is the person or people that are prescribing? Christine Wenzel wants to know, as a young professional in the nonprofit space, I'm curious about how one becomes a social prescriber. Is it doctors? Or is there a growing practice of social prescriber consultants? Lori Anderson, first time question asker, wants to know if you work alongside medical doctors, you're more independent. Pup E-Dog, Mariana Oliver, as in Earl Graham, also asked, who's doing it? Where do you do it? How do you do it?

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Yay, I'm so glad you asked because I can plug this amazing nonprofit grassroots group called Social Prescribing USA that's trying to build this exact network. So to the questions, yes, there are doctors doing this. I just came from Utah, where there's a group of 40 therapists doing this. In Vermont, they're doing this, in community health centers, social workers are doing this here in New York City. The movement is growing. And like most great social movements, it started and sustained by people who like just really care. You know, nobody who's doing this is getting any extra kickbacks or fees for doing social prescribing. They're doing it because they really believe in the science and that this is

• 49:43Speaker 02

  what's best for their patients. So if you want to learn more, you should check out the work of Social Prescribing USA. They have these monthly calls where doctors and therapists and social workers and community health workers are all getting together and like talking the plan, like, how are we going to do this? How are we going to spread this? That would be my advice to get involved. As well as on socialprescribing.co, you know, there are more local groups that you might be interested in getting involved in, as well as checking out all the science that supports this. Social Prescribing USA has a whole page dedicated to an evidence library and another detailing global social prescribing efforts, plus a bunch of resources. So that's socialprescribingusa.com.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  And we'll link it on our website at aliware.com/ologies/salugenology.

• 50:30Alie Ward?

  Do you think getting involved in any protests, does that count? Or is it too high stakes?

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Ooh, yeah.

• 50:34Alie Ward?

  Like, if you're making protest art, if you're getting together with people who have a common cause, or is that too stressful in and of itself that that's like a separate thing?

• 50:42Speaker 02

  God, I love that question. And I, I mean, with everything, it depends. For me, I think that a protest would have a lot of appealing elements of a social prescription because it's service, because it's belonging, and because it's art. It is meaning-making from this collective helplessness that we feel. When we do nothing with that, when that stays in our bodies, and when we're just forced to like confront that on our media feeds, that's really bad, you know? It keeps us up at night. It disrupts our sleep. It makes us more physically tense. We're in a more negative mood. But by protesting, I think, probably outside, probably with neighbors that you haven't

• 51:25Speaker 02

  met before, probably some beautiful, meaningful discussion of like what it means to be a human and why you're there, that kind of meaning-making, I think, is extremely benefi-- not I think, I know, is extremely beneficial for our health. There's a wild study that shows people who have a sense of purpose later in life literally live longer than those who don't.

• 51:48Alie Ward?

  In case you want to do that, live longer.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  So I think that trickles down to all of us as well. If we spend our time, instead of just consuming and accepting the sort of horrific things we're dealing with, that's going to affect our health negatively. But if we can protest and do something about it in community, that's going to help us feel better. But basically with protesting, like, I think there's a reason why that's been around as a form of meaning-making for such a long time.

• 52:18Alie Ward?

  And so many things to choose from. Get yourself some cardboard, march to a march, make some friends. And I know things to rally against are a bummer, but one of my last questions, what's the hardest thing about?

• 52:32Alie Ward?

  Writing the book, or social prescribing, or just tackling this topic, or in general.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  The hardest thing, I think, is that I, that there's only 24 hours in a day.

• 52:42Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  I really believe that, right now, in history, we are so ripe for this. And if, I wish that we had more time to really understand this. I wish there were more time for doctors to learn about this. I wish there was more money for, you know, healthcare practices to invest in link workers, to invest in community groups that are doing the work. So I think the hardest part is trying to understand, what do we do with the limited amount of time? And that's what's kind of beautiful about having written this book and sort of being in this space. Like, this isn't me. I'm just reporting it. It's on everyone else to sort of take this up. And, you know, I'm trying to be as useful as possible

• 53:25Speaker 02

  as I can, but God, sometimes I just wish that I had nine clones running around to help.

• 53:32Alie Ward?

  Well, I'm sure that this will inspire a lot of people to look into this and get involved. So, you know, at least nine people are probably gonna steer their boat toward this.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  Well, and that kind of leads me to the best thing about this, which is that I get emails all the time from people who've read this and are like, I want to help. You know, I'm a librarian. What can I do? I am recently widowed, and I really believe in this, but I don't know where to begin, but I have a lot of time on my hands. What can I do? We're starting to organize these, like, all-hands meetings. Talk about protest. Getting those people to come together, talk about, what can they do to actually implement something in their community? What can they do to, you know, write to their politician or write to their healthcare providers and talk about this? Because I think that's where it begins. We all just need to start talking about it. And what's great is that, literally, anyone can help with that, you know?

• 54:27Speaker 02

  And that, it's fun. It's really, really fun.

• 54:30Alie Ward?

  Even forming a group, even if you've got a community and... You know, you tell anyone like we're playing kickball on Sunday afternoons or something, or you know, there's a run club in my neighborhood and I used to see them pass and there are maybe 20 people. There's like 100 people in this run club that just go around my neighborhood. I see them on Thursday nights and they meet at the same place. And you know, I feel like there's a lot of that community based stuff that if you if you're looking to change your community, but you're not sure how to start, like, what are you into and who else can you find that's into that too, you know, which is great.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Exactly. Gosh, I've seen that too. I'll just tell one quick example, my bird watching club. When it started, it was five people. It's grown to over 150 people and now they've had to add days. Yeah, like, people want this. So it's like, let's give the people what they want and let's get those healthcare dollars and resources involved to make it as easy and barrier free to people, too.

• 55:28Alie Ward?

  Yeah, this is great. This is so inspiring. And it's also really validating that the things that I think are treats, I shouldn't save them for treats. I shouldn't have to earn going on a walk. I shouldn't have to earn going to a class. I shouldn't have to have my life completely together before I can fit in something that is pleasurable. Like, my life will be better if I just do that, you know?

• 55:50Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And that's why I'm going to give this to you and I want you to put it on your desk.

• 55:54Alie Ward?

  I will. I love it.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Listeners, I'm holding up Ally's tailor made social prescription with the ukulele and the bugs and the trees and Jared and the dog. I think that it's so important that we talk about this stuff as medicine because it is. Nobody would say, oh, I'll take my blood pressure medication if I have time. So I think the more we can talk about this and treat it in our own lives as medicine, the more we can sort of be the change we want to see. I just really think that this can help so many people. I know that it has helped so many people and I'm excited to see where it goes.

• 56:30Alie Ward?

  I think everyone should save one of their prescription bottles and then just make little paper cutouts or make a diorama in it.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, and do it as a group. That could be a fun thing.

• 56:39Alie Ward?

  Oh, social prescription making.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  We solved it.

• 56:46Alie Ward?

  So once again, ask saliogenological people sometimes basic questions. Sometimes they're not smart, and that's fine. Also, people, fuck the system. Do the things that your ancestors evolved you to do. As I said last week, TV and scrolling steals your time and your life and your money. Pharmaceutical companies love it when you're sick and sad. There are people out there whose lives will be changed by hanging out and crafting, or biking, or fishing, or chatting. This is the stuff that makes life easier and makes us stronger to get through the hard parts. And my boy, howdy, are there hard parts. So take a fuck you walk. Don't surrender your life to corporations,

• 57:28Alie Ward?

  cut banks, text your crush, volunteer somewhere you selfishly love being, join a club, start a club, thank us later, thank Julia. Once again, her book is The Connection Care, and you can find her on Instagram at Hot Thoughts, which we'll link in the show notes, along with Grow NYC. We have links to all the research we talked about on our website at alieward.com/ologies/saliogenology, linked in the show notes. We are at Ologies on Instagram and on Blue Sky. I'm at @Alieward, with one L on both. Smologies are those kid-friendly episodes, and they are shorter. They're wherever you find podcasts, they're in their own feed. Look for Smologies. They're linked in the show notes, too. You can find merch at ologiesmerch.com. You can tag your photos, Ologies Merch, or tag us, and we'll repost to you on Mondays. Thank you to Erin Talbert,

• 58:12Alie Ward?

  who admins the Ologies Podcast Facebook group. Abilene Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly R. Dwyer does the website. Noelle Dilworth is our lovely scheduling producer. Susan Hale managing directs the whole shebang. Jake Chafee edits beautifully, wonderful dude. And lead editor, captain of the editing ship, is Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick Thorburn made the theme music. And if you stick around until the end of the episode, I tell you a secret. And this week is...

• 58:41Alie Ward?

  I went to the ukulele club. I went, I almost chickened out and in fact, I showed up an hour late because I almost didn't go. I was like, I didn't practice enough. I tuned my ukulele and it sounds amazing. This ukulele I bought for $20 on Craigslist. Like when people were still using Craigslist, that's how long it had it. And it is a junk ukulele, but it is mine and I love it. And I went there and we were like 15, 20 people. They all had their ukuleles. They were playing along to all kinds of pop hits from the eighties. It was amazing. I loved it. I will be back. And they say, even if you can't play along to all the chords, you could just sing in the back

• 59:24Alie Ward?

  and, uh, and pluck as you might. Anyway, it was so great and I'm really happy that Julia, um, kind of cajoled me into doing it. And it's a great thing to look forward to. So very excited. I will not be playing a ukulele concert anytime soon for any of you. I respect you too much to do that, but it is very fun and very cute. And also I love going on walks around the lake. So that has all changed our lives for the better. So, uh, get her book or just do her stuff that she told you to do in this and report back. Let me know how it's going. Okay. Bye bye.

• 1:00:18Alie Ward?

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