Why We Like Cute Things & How to Have a Great Conversation

When you use sarcasm in an email or text message, you are skating on thin ice. This episode begins by revealing the dangers of sarcasm in electronic communication and why it can get you in trouble. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/perceptual-asymmetries/201501/do-you-use-sarcasm-in-e-mails Universally, people love cute things. When you see a baby or a puppy or kitten, you react in a unique way. So, what is it about cuteness that we are attracted to? What happens to us internally when we see something cute? And why is it important? Here to explain this is Joshua Paul Dale, a professor at Chuo University in Tokyo and who has been featured as an expert on cuteness in The New York Times, CNN, National Geographic and The Guardian. He is also author of the book, Irresistible: How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and Conquered the World (https://amzn.to/4hkNMgw). You engage in conversations every day with people without thinking a lot about it. But there is an art and science to good conversation and the more you understand it, the better your conversation skills become. Here to dive into the anatomy of good conversation is Alison Wood Brooks. She is a professor at Harvard Business School where she created and teaches a course called TALK. As a behavioral scientist, she is a leading expert on the science of conversation. Alison is author of the book TALK: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves (https://amzn.to/4gVF88z). When you see a car with a flat tire you might figure they hit a nail or the tire was punctured by something. But the most common reason for a tire to blow out is not puncture. Listen as I reveal the most common reason tires fail and how to prevent it. https://blog.openbay.com/post/104697132412/5-facts-you-didnt-know-about-your-tires PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! SHOPIFY: "Established in 2025". Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for a $1 per-month trial period at https://Shopify.com/sysk . Go to SHOPIFY.com/sysk to grow your business! HERS: Hers is changing women's healthcare by providing access to GLP-1 weekly injections with the same active ingredient as Ozempic and Wegovy, as well as oral medication kits. Start your free online visit today at https://forhers.com/sysk INDEED: Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING right now! CURIOSITY WEEKLY: We love Curiosity Weekly, so be sure and listen wherever you get your podcasts! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Carruthers?

  Gifts mean more when they have the power to give more. They can inspire more discovery, give more confidence, and unwrap more of who you are. This Black Friday, give a gift that goes beyond the box. The Dell XPS 13 Laptop. With a beautiful design and cutting-edge performance, it helps you unlock more possibilities. It's the thinnest, lightest XPS laptop yet, with touchscreen, a backlit keyboard, and long-lasting battery life to power you through your day. Built with a durable aluminum chassis, weighing just 2.2 pounds, and Intel Core processors,

• 0:42Mike Carruthers?

  it's fast, reliable, and portable enough to keep up wherever you go. Visit dell.com to explore the possibilities with XPS. While shopping, you'll also find great perks like Dell Rewards, fast, free shipping, premium support, and financing with flexible payment options. Plus, you can find great deals on monitors and accessories. That means you can score a whole new setup now for less. This Black Friday sale is one you don't want to miss. Head to dell.com/deals. That's dell.com/deals.

• 1:28Mike Carruthers?

  Today on Something You Should Know: Why sarcasm and email really don't mix well. Then, why we love cute things and why cuteness is so powerful.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Cuteness attracts our attention very quickly, within one-seventh of a second. Then, it acts as a reliever of social emotions, like well-being and empathy and compassion and things like that.

• 1:55Mike Carruthers?

  Also, the biggest reason car tires blow out and how to prevent it. And the anatomy of good conversation and why every conversation is important.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  You never know what you could uncover, even in a seemingly sort of shallow conversation. And you never know when something that seems like a small-talk conversation could become something more.

• 2:22Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know.

• 2:27Mike Carruthers?

  I imagine most of us shop for clothes online at least some of the time. And there's always that little mystery. Is what shows up at your door actually going to look like what you think you ordered? We've all had that experience. I know my wife has ordered dresses that look beautiful in the pictures. But when they arrived, eh, not so beautiful. Cheap looking, disappointing. And that's one of the reasons we've become such big fans of Quince. When we order from Quince, we are confident we're going to get something really nice. The quality is consistently good and the prices are surprisingly reasonable.

• 3:06Mike Carruthers?

  I've bought their cashmere sweaters, which are gorgeous, and they start at just $60 for cashmere. My wife buys tons of stuff from Quince and we keep coming back. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, offering prices 50% to 80% less than similar brands. And with the holidays coming, that's a pretty compelling combination. Beautiful clothes and gifts without spending a fortune or wondering what's really going to show up at the door. I really do recommend Quince. It's one of those companies that has earned our trust. Give the gift of quality this holiday season.

• 3:46Mike Carruthers?

  Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, please let them know it was something you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 4:23Mike Carruthers?

  And as I record this, I have to tell you, I am so glad this last 10 days is over. We were right at the edge of the Eaton Fire, one of the two first big fires in California. It burned right, literally right to our backyard, but we are okay. And I had a cold, that nasty cold that's going around that just will not go away. The cough keeps lingering. It's been a tough couple of days, so I'm glad we're pretty much at the end of it. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. We're going to start today talking about one of the pitfalls, big pitfalls, of email, and texting for that matter.

• 5:07Mike Carruthers?

  And it has to do with sarcasm. For people to understand another person's sarcasm, they have to share context. If two people are about to walk out into a rainstorm and one person says, gee, what a lovely day for a walk, well, everybody gets it. Everybody understands the sarcasm because they all share the same context. But in an email, or a text message, the person may not share this common ground, so any sarcasm could easily be misunderstood. In fact, it might even be offensive. Studies have been conducted and have shown that sarcasm in email is often taken literally, and that can lead to a lot of trouble.

• 5:52Mike Carruthers?

  Emoticons can help, but many of them are ambiguous, hard to see, and can look unprofessional. So as a general rule, sarcasm in an email or a text is extremely risky and probably better left to vocal communication, where it's much more obvious. And that is something you should know.

• 6:16Mike Carruthers?

  Human beings are suckers for all things cute. A cute baby, a cute puppy, a kitten, a bear cub, a cartoon character. They all grab our attention because they're so cute. So what is cute? What makes something cute? Does cute sell? Marketers use cute characters a lot to sell products. Does it work? Well, as you might imagine, cute has been studied. And one of the experts on cute is Joshua Paul Dale. He is a professor in the Department of English Literature and Culture at, I think it's pronounced Chuo University in Tokyo, C-H-U-O.

• 6:58Mike Carruthers?

  He's been featured as an expert on cuteness by media outlets such as The New York Times, CNN, National Geographic, The Guardian, and Discover magazine. He's author of a book called Irresistible: How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and Conquered the World. Hi Joshua, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Hello Mike, and thanks very much for having me.

• 7:20Mike Carruthers?

  So what a fascinating topic, because everybody seems to be attracted to things that are cute. But you wonder, like, what is it about something that makes it cute? Because you could look at a cute puppy, and they're just adorable. But in a few weeks, few months, not so cute anymore. So what happened? We all know cute when we see it, but what is the definition of cute?

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, we call that the baby schema. And basically, anything that reminds us of a baby is gonna appear cute to us. So you gave the example of puppies. They have big eyes as they're maturing, they have a kind of wide face, they have short little arms and legs. And these are the things that trigger a cuteness response in us, because we evolved to feel that babies are cute.

• 8:16Mike Carruthers?

  We evolved to it? It's evolution, or is it just cultural?

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, that's a really good question. And it seems to be a mix of both. So scientists think that we evolved to feel cute because babies need to be taken care of. And even more than that, they need socialization. They need us to engage with them so that they can learn to be part of human society. And that response was so robust because it's so needed in our evolution as a species that it kind of spills over into anything that looks like a baby, like puppies or kittens.

• 8:52Mike Carruthers?

  So what are the elements of cuteness? What must something have in order for people to look at it and go, "Oh, look how cute"?

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Yes, this is a question that companies are always trying to figure out when they design cute products. And the threshold is different for individuals, so we can never know for sure. Otherwise, you know, I could make a million dollars right now just by designing the perfect cute product. So basically, it has to have some of the characteristics of the baby schema. But more important, I think, is the relationship that we can feel with the cute object. So if we can feel some kind of connection and there's a few cute characteristics, then we're going to be overwhelmed by that feeling of cuteness.

• 9:43Mike Carruthers?

  And what does seeing, or observing, or experiencing cuteness in the world do for me? Why do I like it, and what does it do for me?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Well, studies have shown some really interesting results about that. Cuteness can basically induce positive emotional states because it gets our brain ready for behaviors like caretaking and also socialization. So when we see something cute, first of all, it makes us feel good. It increases our sense of well-being. It also triggers activity in the muscles used for smiling, even if we're not aware of it. Scientists have put sensors on people's faces and the muscles are activated for smiling when we see something cute. And also, seeing something cute promotes social relationships, like it increases our empathy.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  And it even focuses our attention more.

• 10:41Mike Carruthers?

  The word cute, though, seems to have been hijacked for a lot of things. Like, you will often see someone try a clothes on and go, "Oh, that outfit's, it's so cute. It looks so cute on you." Well, does it look cute on you? It doesn't look cute, certainly not the way you're talking about cute. It's come to mean something else. I'm not sure what that means.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, cute can be a synonym for very similar words like pretty or adorable, which is very close to cute. And there's also an element of the word cute in English that is not in the word in other languages. Cute in English can imply something that's a little bit clever or cunning. Like, you can say, "Oh, don't be cute," to someone, for example. And you're not talking about adorability there. You're saying, "Don't be so clever." In other languages, like in Japanese, the word for cute is "kawaii." And it does not have that kind of meaning. You cannot say, "Don't be kawaii," in the way that you can say, "Don't be cute," in English. That's what I find so interesting about this phenomenon.

• 11:50Mike Carruthers?

  Are we suckers for cute? In other words, if there are two similar items for sale and they're the same price, everything's similar, but one of them's got this cute baby puppy face, are we more likely to buy it?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  I think it depends on our own situation. So, some people are more attracted to cute things than others. And there's interesting research going on right now about AI assistants, which are coming fast. And so, the scientists are wondering, you know, will people like an assistant that sounds cute or one that sounds more professional? And it really depends on the situation. If you're asking for help with a technical issue, you want professionalism. But there are other cases where if a voice, artificial voice, sounds kind of cute, that you might forgive it its mistakes a little bit more easily, for example. And companies are very aware that that can be a big advantage to them.

• 12:51Mike Carruthers?

  Well, that brings up an interesting question because we know what a cute voice sounds like, but a cute voice doesn't have any of the characteristics that you talked about because you can't see it. So what makes a cute voice cute?

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, there is a phenomenon they call auditory cuteness that's also being investigated. And so far, the research has really concentrated on voices that are sort of a little bit more higher pitched. There are actually robots available that create sounds. They don't talk through a cavity in their bodies that is the same size as a baby's vocal voice, uh, voice box, sorry, the same size as a baby's voice box. So in general, if a voice sounds like a little bit higher pitched and also a little bit, maybe a little bit funny or laughing a little bit, then we're more likely to imagine that a relationship with

• 13:49Speaker 01

  that voice and go along with it.

• 13:52Mike Carruthers?

  What about cuteness in others, with other species? Because if you see like little wolves or little bears, they're adorable. They're cute. They're very cute. Is it having the same effect on, on other bears? Like, oh, isn't that cub so cute or not?

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Well, we will feel that animals are cute if they have the baby's schema characteristics and also if they're in their, what we call the socialization period. Young animals, including predators like bears or wolves, in their first few weeks of life, they are very curious and they explore everything and they have a lot of energy. Those are the characteristics that human children have too, and these will help trigger our cuteness response. But of course, with wild animals, once the socialization window closes, then they become more cautious and can become aggressive as well.

• 14:50Mike Carruthers?

  So why do you care about this? Why is this worth studying? Other than I can certainly see from a marketing point of view wanting to understand how to use cuteness to sell stuff, but I assume your interest in this is not that.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Well, that's part of it. I mean, my typical answer to the question of why do I study cute is that it's a multi-billion dollar industry operating around the world and very few people are studying it. But more than that, I mean, you're right to guess that I have more of an interest. And my interest really lies in just how deep it goes and how many ways you can study it from so many different positions. You can study the science of cuteness, the psychology of cuteness, from marketing, sure, but also from a cultural standpoint. What do we find cute and why? And how is this different across individuals and cultures? It just seems like I'll never get to the bottom of it, and that's what attracts me.

• 15:48Mike Carruthers?

  We're discussing cuteness. My guest is Joshua Paul Dale. He's author of the book Irresistible: How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and Conquered the World. Well, here's something you should know about your bones. We all hear about calcium and vitamin D, and they're important, but there's another ingredient in healthy bones that hardly anybody talks about: collagen. Think of your bones like a building, right? Collagen provides the framework while minerals like calcium help give it strength. Here's the problem, though. As we get older, our bodies naturally produce less collagen. That's why I was interested in Native Path Bone Health Collagen. It's not just ordinary collagen.

• 16:33Mike Carruthers?

  It contains a specialized form called Fortabone, and there's some interesting research behind it. In a study of 131 post-menopausal women, researchers saw improvements in bone mineral density after 12 months, up to 7.7% in an important part of the hip. Native Path gives you the same five grams of Fortabone used in that research in an easy The Mix Daily Formula. I just got mine because bone health is something I'd rather pay attention to now than wish I had later. And here's a great reason to try Native Path Bone Health Collagen right now. You can save up to 48%, get free shipping,

• 17:18Mike Carruthers?

  and it's backed by a 365-day money-back guarantee. Now, that's a pretty compelling offer if you've been thinking about doing something to support your bone health. Go to getbetterbones.com/sysk. That's G-E-T betterbones.com/sysk. This episode is sponsored by Vinted. You know, I remember interviewing an organizing expert who offered this really clever trick for figuring out which clothes you should get rid of. You go to your closet and you look at the clothes hanging there. And chances are, the ones toward the middle are the clothes you wear most often.

• 18:01Mike Carruthers?

  But the clothes pushed way over to the left or the right, some of those you probably haven't worn in years. And yet, there they hang, taking up space. But here's the thing. You could turn those clothes into money. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer wear and make some extra money. Listing on Vinted is so quick and simple. And when something sells, Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you. And here's what I really like. Vinted charges no seller fees. So whatever you earn from selling your clothes, you keep. Think about that.

• 18:42Mike Carruthers?

  Clothes that you aren't wearing, taking up space, could be putting money back in your pocket. So here's my suggestion. Take five minutes, go look at the far ends of your closet and see what's hanging there. You might be surprised. Download the Vinted app for free and start listing. With no seller fees, you keep every dollar you earn. That's Vinted, V-I-N-T-E-D.

• 19:07Mike Carruthers?

  So Joshua, what about the history of cuteness? Has cuteness always been a thing? Has it always been important? Has it always been as big a deal as it is now? My guess is that's probably not the case, but you tell me.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, in Western culture, like European history, there has not been so much cuteness in arts and literature, you know, where we can track it, until possibly the Renaissance, when cupids appeared in artworks. So there are many frescoes and paintings from the Renaissance with little winged cupids flying around that look like babies. In Japan, it's different. Cuteness has been a presence in the arts in Japan for at least 1,000 years in art and literature. And that difference is also something that I'm really interested in exploring.

• 20:02Mike Carruthers?

  Why do you think it's so popular in Japanese culture for so long?

• 20:07Speaker 01

  One reason is that in Europe, the aesthetics that guided art were the beautiful and the sublime. So painters just wanted to make things that were perfect and beautiful or that really impressed you, like a sublime object. In Japan, the aesthetics leaned more towards the everyday. And painters wanted to do things that people would like, rather than just focusing on perfection. In fact, Japanese art kind of prefers asymmetry to symmetry. And this is the atmosphere that allowed cuteness to rise up in the arts in Japan so early, I think.

• 20:47Mike Carruthers?

  So does cuteness perpetuate itself? In other words, when you see a character in a movie that's very cute and then it seems like there's more of those kinds of characters in movies because it seemed to work the last time, and then there's more cuteness and more cuteness, like it kind of builds on itself?

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it definitely can go in waves. There was an initial wave in the early 20th century that had to do with new technologies, like new printing technologies, so you could do color photographs and newspaper comic supplements and the era of mass production. And we're in the midst, I think, of another boom in cuteness that was caused by the internet and social media. Because now we can share content so easily and it crosses geographical borders so easily. And so it feeds on itself. Like you said, we see a little cute content and it's popular, so more and more is produced and it just keeps going.

• 21:48Mike Carruthers?

  Is it fair to say that cuteness appeals to women more than men, or not?

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Studies, some studies have shown that women seem to be a bit more sensitive to cuteness, which is not really surprising, because I think that cuteness is really part of girls and young women's culture.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  But on the other hand, the studies also show that men have sensitivity to cuteness as well. So it's really a mixed thing that appeals to all genders.

• 22:22Mike Carruthers?

  Are we being manipulated by cuteness, much in the way, you know, people say sex sells? Does cuteness sell? Are we suckers for cuteness?

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Yes, we are absolutely being manipulated by cuteness, constantly. I can say that with confidence. Companies that make products that are cute are definitely trying to get us to buy them. Content providers are making cute content because it's popular and then we will subscribe to their channels. So we do have to be a little bit careful of that, I think, and just kind of be aware of when we're attracted to something by its cuteness. You know, who benefits? We benefit, but perhaps we're allowing something else to benefit too, like a corporation.

• 23:08Mike Carruthers?

  So you said a few minutes ago that there are so many ways to look at this topic of cuteness. And for someone who doesn't study cuteness, I can't imagine what some of those ways are. So what's one of those ways?

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Sure, for example, there have been some really interesting studies that put people into brain scanners and show them cute images and take a look at what happens to our brains when we are feeling the emotion of cuteness. And what they found is that cuteness attracts our attention very quickly, within one seventh of a second. And then it acts kind of as a releaser of social emotions. So after we're attracted to a cute object, then it can influence our behavior, but it doesn't do that automatically. The attraction is automatic, but then it influences our behavior only if we really like cute things and depending on the situation.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  And in that case, it will release all of these pro-social feelings, like well-being and empathy and compassion and things like that.

• 24:15Mike Carruthers?

  Because, based on what you're saying, there's a lot we now know about cuteness. I'm wondering how tech is incorporating, if at all, this whole concept of cuteness, and if so, how?

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Right now, I'm looking to the near future, to what's happening with AI, but also robotics. Because I've been, you know, I have a Google Scholar alert for cuteness, so a couple of times a week, these emails pop up in my inbox and I get advanced news on what's being published in the academic fields on robotics and AI. And I've been noticing a lot of papers that are concentrating on cuteness, like, how can we make a robot act in a cute way? And they're very technical. The latest article I read was talking about head tilting, like, how can a robot tilt its head? So we look at it and go, oh, that's so cute. You know, what is the angle that needs to be done?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  What speed does a robot's head have to move? So from this, I get the impression that we're going to be seeing a new generation of robots that are designed to look cute and to appeal to us through their cuteness. And we get a whole, you know, a whole bunch of reasons for that. Some of them are a profit for the company, but also it's a way to help us to feel closer to that robot, to engage to it, with it. And then it will help us more if that's the robot's intention.

• 25:43Mike Carruthers?

  Right, well, certainly you wouldn't feel all that threatened by a cute robot where you might... With a robot that talks like this, you know, that a cute robot way, oh, that's that. Okay, I'll play with that.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 25:58Mike Carruthers?

  So we respond to cuteness almost instantly because it has this, which you describe as the baby scheme of the that looks like a baby or has elements of the look of a baby. Do babies respond to cuteness to other babies who are cute?

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Yes, actually, studies have shown that. Yeah, and I actually think anyone with children would recognize that once they reach a certain age, they are able to use their cuteness to try to manipulate their parents. So cuteness is both appreciated by very young children and also used by very young children.

• 26:38Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, and there have been, I've heard people say that, you know, maybe dogs can try to use it too, like when they done something bad, they do that cute, you know, sad face thing. Like, it's hard for me to imagine that's a deliberate use of cuteness.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, dogs have this muscle that allows them to raise their eyebrows. And it's interesting because wolves, who they descended from, do not have this muscle. So it seems to have evolved because it is particularly effective in emotionally manipulating humans who have been taking care of dogs for a long time. So I don't know if the dogs are deliberately, I mean, they didn't deliberately evolve this new muscle, it's just that the ones who had it survived better than the ones who didn't. And that's because of its effect on us. So really, you know, I, we're not really sure if animals feel cuteness themselves or

• 27:33Speaker 01

  if they are able to use cuteness to manipulate us, but certainly animals will try to manipulate us, just like young children will. I think anyone with a cat, a dog, a cat or a dog will know that sometimes the animal is trying to manipulate us to get food or our attention or care. And cuteness is a very effective way of doing that.

• 27:55Mike Carruthers?

  But are they using it deliberately or are they're just cute? So, you know, it's hard to get mad at them because look how cute they are.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  I think it's both. I think any animal, and that includes young humans, will use every weapon in their arsenal to try to get what they want. And cuteness is one of those like tools. So, you know, I don't know how much they're actually aware that this is that cuteness is the thing they're using. It's just the effective thing that they're using. And they've realized that this is effective and that's why they're using it.

• 28:29Mike Carruthers?

  So lastly, one last thing about cuteness that I probably don't know that would surprise me or interest me or fascinate me or whatever.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  So right now, we have these AI chatbots that have learned through absorbing a tremendous amount of text. And we have these AI image generators that can generate images because they have absorbed a ton of images. But so far, there haven't been any AIs that have trained on a huge corpus of videos. But think of the tens of thousands or even millions of cute videos that have been uploaded to social media and the internet. If there was an AI that trained on all of those cute videos and then the AI was able to operate a robotic body

• 29:18Speaker 01

  like a robotic dog, Sony already makes a robotic dog called the IBO and it's pretty cute. If it has an AI engine in it that is trained with all those videos, then it could perform cuteness in ways that would never make us bored, would always attract our attention and interest and always attract our empathy and connection and always increase our own sense of well-being. And that's where I think the future might be headed.

• 29:48Mike Carruthers?

  Well, who knew there was so much about cuteness to talk about, but but it's interesting to hear that there is so much to talk about. I've been talking with Joshua Paul Dale. He's one of the leading experts on cuteness. And he's author of a book called Irresistible: How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and Conquered the World. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Joshua, this was really interesting. I know more about cuteness than I ever thought I would.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Your questions are great. And I mean, I was prepared for that because I've listened to your show. But really, I mean, this was, this was really a treat because the questions were just on point and excellent.

• 30:29Mike Carruthers?

  If you listen to something you should know regularly, you know we talk about sleep quite a bit here. And one of the things I've learned from those conversations is just how important a good night's sleep is. And I've always been someone who loves his sleep. So I was intrigued when I heard about Beam Dream. It's a delicious nighttime drink formulated to help you fall asleep faster, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. It contains ingredients like reishi, magnesium, L-theanine, apigenin, and melatonin. They have lots of great flavors. I tried the cinnamon cocoa flavor, and I love the idea of having something warm and delicious as part of winding down at night.

• 31:13Mike Carruthers?

  And it's less than 20 calories per serving. Dream has improved more than 30 million nights of sleep, and they back it up with a 30-day money-back guarantee. If you don't sleep better, you get your money back. And right now, there's a terrific offer. Go to shopbeam.com/sysk. Use code S Y S K and get 50% off during Beam's Cyber Sale. Only available while flavors are in stock. With this incredible discount, that means you'll pay just 83 cents per night for the best sleep of your life. So seriously, think about it. I mean, how much would you pay for a truly great night of sleep? Beam is just 83 cents per night.

• 31:58Mike Carruthers?

  So go to shopbeam.com/sysk now. That's shopbeam.com/sysk. So here's the problem with drinking water. You can't tell if it's clean just by looking at it. A glass of water can look perfectly clear and still contain things you definitely don't want to drink. In fact, three out of four U.S. homes have toxic chemicals in their tap water. An ordinary refrigerator and pitcher filters

• 32:30Mike Carruthers?

  They do little to remove many of these contaminants, which is why Aqua True is different. Aqua True is a countertop water purifier with a patented four-stage reverse osmosis system. It's tested and certified to remove 84 contaminants, including chlorine, lead, forever chemicals, and those microplastics. And there's no plumbing, no installation. You just put it on the counter and you get pure, great tasting water. You can actually feel good about drinking. Aqua True was even named best countertop water filter by Good Housekeeping. Look, if you're going to drink water every single day, and you probably should, well, why guess what's in it?

• 33:13Mike Carruthers?

  Go to aquatrue.com now for 20% off your purifier using promo code S Y S K. Aqua True even comes with a 30-day best tasting water guarantee. That's aquatrue.com, A Q U A T R U dot com, promo code S Y S K.

• 33:38Mike Carruthers?

  When you think about how many conversations people have every day, you would think we're all experts at it by now, and some people seem to be. We all know people who are brilliant conversationalists, while others of us aren't quite so good at it. For one thing, most of us never learned formally how to make a conversation. It's just something you learn as you go. So today, we're going to discuss what makes a good conversation and a good conversationalist with my guest, Alison Woodbrooks. Alison is a professor at Harvard Business School, and she is author of a book called, "Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves."

• 34:21Mike Carruthers?

  Hi, Alison, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

• 34:27Mike Carruthers?

  So as I said, conversation is something most of us just learn as we go. Seldom do we sit down and talk about the science of conversation. We just do it. So why are we talking about it?

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Conversation is a surprisingly vast ocean of complexity. There's a lot going on under the hood for something we learned to do as toddlers and practice doing every day of our lives, every day, all day long with a huge range of partners. It feels like we get to adulthood and we should be experts. And in truth, we are far from being expert at conversation.

• 35:05Mike Carruthers?

  So what makes a good conversation?

• 35:10Speaker 02

  The definition of a good conversation is not up to me as a scientist or as a professor. It's not even up to you, Mike. It's determined by the goals of the people participating in the conversation. And the goals that people have when they interact with other people are vast. I mean, if you didn't have, we always have at least one goal, even if it's just to have fun, or be polite, or to uphold the very basic expectation that you're going to respond to another person. Usually, people have many more than just one goal. So you kind of hold on to this rich constellation of things. You might want to share a story. You might want to seek someone's advice. You might want to have a great time.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  You might want to give them a compliment. You want to persuade them to agree with your view on a certain issue. And also, you need to leave in five minutes. So we all hold these very many goals at the same time. And the person you're talking to has their own constellation of goals that they hold on to. And so the definition of success in any given conversation depends on achieving at least some subset of those goals. And achieving those goals is harder than it first appears.

• 36:29Mike Carruthers?

  But in addition to those goals, and I get that, obviously, if you don't reach any of the goals of the conversation, I guess that means it didn't go very well. But we've all had those conversations that almost regardless of whether we hit the goals, you walk away going, wow, what a great, that was such, that was, I really enjoyed talking to that person. And we've all had conversations with people that, what was that about? I mean, that was the, what a waste of time that was. And I want to try to understand, like, what happened that people walk away with those different kind of? Results.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so in almost every encounter, we have this, we have some goals that are common across most conversations, one of which is that we want it to be enjoyable and feel meaningful and not overly shallow. We want to avoid awkwardness. We want to feel connected. We want to feel safe. And we want, often, we want to learn new things from each other. It's why the human race evolved the ability to communicate at all is to share and exchange accurate information. And so, to the extent that you can achieve enjoyment and safety and connection and information exchange, all within one conversation, that's going

• 37:51Speaker 02

  to be a conversation that feels terrific. And it can break down in any one of those ways. If it's not enjoyable, if it doesn't feel safe, if it's not advancing your understanding in the way that you want it to, and if you don't feel connected to the other person, like you're helping each other and like you understand each other, in any one of those ways, when we walk away, it can feel like a failure.

• 38:19Mike Carruthers?

  I want to talk about small talk. People have very definite opinions on small talk. Some people hate it. Some people relish in it. I don't personally mind small talk, except when you're in a situation where that's all there is. You're just kind of going from person to person, and it's, "Hi, how are you? What do you do?" And that, to me, gets old pretty quick. And sometimes those conversations are fueled by alcohol, and they just never really seem to go anywhere. And you wonder, well, you know, what's the point of small talk?

• 38:55Speaker 02

  So, I want to push you on this.

• 38:57Mike Carruthers?

  All right.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  You never know what you could uncover, even in a seemingly sort of shallow context or a shallow conversation. You never know when you're going to see someone again. You never know if you could uncover something in that conversation that would inspire you to see them again. So even in the unlikeliest of circumstances, I just want to push you and everyone.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  To consider the idea that maybe it doesn't have to be as shallow as it first appears. I teach about this in my course at Harvard. There's this topic pyramid with three levels. At the base of the pyramid, this is where small talk lives. This is topics you could talk about with anybody, let's say, at a dinner party or a cocktail party. So the traffic, the weather, the weekend, the holidays, whatever, stuff you can talk about with anyone. The problem isn't with small talk in general. In fact, it's a very important social ritual that helps us initiate conversations, get acquainted with people we don't know well, or reacquaint ourselves with people we haven't seen in a while. The mistake that most people make, particularly at a cocktail party, or maybe a networking

• 40:09Speaker 02

  event, or really anywhere, is they stay too long at the base of the pyramid. So you need to think of small talk as a place to be searching for something more meaningful, for looking for doorknobs, to go through doors to more meaningful rooms of the conversation. And if you find them, you can move into the second tier of the pyramid, which is medium or tailored talk. And the way to get there is to get more personalized. And this might look like asking questions that triggers self-disclosure from your partner. It might mean sharing something personal, maybe something joyful or painful about your own life. Or it could not be about disclosure at all, but just trying to find topics that are exciting

• 40:53Speaker 02

  to both of you, sort of chasing the energy to find topics where they're an expert, or they have some interest, or just positive energy in general. So chase the energy to launch away from small talk. At the very top of the pyramid is deep talk. This is a meaningful topic that maybe only you two people could talk about at a specific moment in time. The conversation we're having right now feels like we're getting there, right? Like, we're there because we have this substantive topic to talk about. You have this expertise. We're getting to know each other. We're sort of hovering over deep talk and having a substantive collaboration and work.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  Work to work on together can help you get there. And we're all, we're sort of all navigating this topic pyramid all the time. Not every conversation is bound for the peak of the pyramid. It would be annoying if someone is always trying to have these sort of deep, meaningful conversations with everybody. You don't need to have a deep conversation with the barista at Starbucks. But you could maybe give them a compliment or ask about their kid, right? If it's the same person you're seeing every day and get into that medium second tier of the pyramid. But I do want to push you and everyone on this idea of like, it doesn't have to be shallow. And you never know when something that seems like a small talk conversation could become something more.

• 42:19Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, I know you're right. I, I, I think it's more weariness, like when, when you're at a networking event or something. And you've had, you know, 10 or 12 of those shallow conversations. You just kind of run out of gas. It's like, uh, not, I, I just, I'm done. I mean, I may, I'll try again tomorrow, but I just, enough's enough.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, or not, maybe take a rest, don't talk to anybody tomorrow. Yeah, exhaustion is real. So I think all of this stuff, thinking about how to have great conversations, how to really connect with people. One thing that has become clear through our research is it does require a tremendous amount of energy and effort. You even just listening, your mind is wandering 24% of the time, even when you're trying to listen attentively. So to be a good listener, it takes a lot of, a lot of energy, a lot of focus. And we're not always prepared. We don't always have that energy.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  So I think giving yourself grace about that and giving others grace about sort of social and conversational fatigue is also really important. Particularly in this world where we're constantly toggling between, you know, text threads and emails and phone calls and Zoom calls. And in, in, in-person conversations, there's, we're sort of having more conversation across all different modes of communication than ever before in human history. So the fatigue, the, the drain on our energy that comes from that is, is very, very real and should be taken seriously.

• 43:50Mike Carruthers?

  I want to ask you about, you just used the word, you know, connect, connect with someone. And everyone's connected with someone and you sort of know what that feels like. But what does it mean to connect with someone? And do you think that because I feel like I've connected with someone, how likely is it that they feel the same way?

• 44:13Speaker 02

  Hmm, what a lovely question. I sometimes think of conversation as the sort of journey that you're going on, a sort of relentless search process where you're searching for deep, meaningful moments where you get to the peak of that topic pyramid, where you feel like, oh, we did it, we got, we did the thing, where we feel really close and connected and like, I trust you. And we, we talked about a thing that was, felt really good, we felt connected. I don't think we can expect that all the time. And even in conversations where you walk away feeling like, oh, my gosh, that was great. If you looked back at the transcript, what you would see is kind of like a train wreck.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Like it would, we interrupt each other all the time. There's all kinds of moments of misunderstanding. There's, we say things that we probably shouldn't. We forget to say things that we should. But there are these moments where you come together and say, wow, like, oh, that felt really good. And likely, if you're feeling that way, it's likely that the other person is as well. But to your point, Mike, like the, you never know. You, you, we really cannot read the minds of other people. The most direct way to understand what is in someone else's head and how they felt like the conversation went is to ask them directly. Questions are the most direct pathway to learning about someone else's mind.

• 45:42Mike Carruthers?

  I remember hearing somebody say something about Bill Clinton, that he is a great conversationalist, because when you talk to him, you feel like you're the only person in the world, that he makes you so the focus of his existence for the few minutes he's talking to you, that everybody walks away from a conversation with him feeling terrific. And we've all had those people, I know those people, that you talk to them and you walk away, you feel better about yourself, you feel smarter, you feel, you just feel terrific. And then the other side of that is you walk away from some conversations and feel horrible.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I know, I've heard that about Bill Clinton as well. There are people in the world who have developed conversation as a skill. And it's very easy to look at someone like Bill Clinton and think, boy, he was, he is gifted. He is a gifted, natural conversationalist, he has this charisma, he's really good at connecting with people. And maybe it's effortless for him. And when you look at someone like Bill Clinton, who just seems charismatic and so good at connecting with people, such a great listener, it kind of makes you, can make you feel bad about yourself, like, what am I not doing right here? What is this thing that he's so good at? Which I call the myth of naturalness. Even for someone like Bill Clinton, what you can't see are all the many experiences

• 47:09Speaker 02

  that he's had in his life that led him to this place where he became such a good communicator. And you can't see all of the effort that he's putting in to every conversation to make sure that his partners are feeling so understood and loved and listened to and charmed and delighted. If you were to ask Bill Clinton, my guess would be that he thinks about people a lot when he's not together with them, he thinks about what topics he needs to bring up with them once they're together. And then, once they're in a conversation, he's thinking very, he's listening very attentively, putting in tons of effort to really listen to people, elaborate on their ideas,

• 47:50Speaker 02

  follow up with them, and very actively sort of thinking about how to be the most helpful he can be to them in that sort of magical moment of the conversation. Also, when people describe Bill Clinton in particular, I suspect what he's quite good at is listening. And listening is one of the most important skills in conversation overall, and it's much more complicated than it first appears.

• 48:19Mike Carruthers?

  And every time I talk to someone, or I listen to someone talk about conversation, communicating with other people, how to be an effective communicator, they all say, listening is one of the, if not the, most critical parts of communicating. And yet, I don't think people think about that, that they think it's, I've got to say what I need to say and get them to understand what I'm saying.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  So I think as humans, we tend to fixate on talking, thinking about, well, when am I going to speak up? And what am I going to say? What am I going to disclose? What should I ask this person? When in fact, I think perhaps the more important part of the equation is listening, focusing on your partner and working really hard to listen to their words, but also to their nonverbal cues, their gestures, their facial expressions. When we study listening as behavioral scientists, we think of it as all of the information that's coming at you visually and through your ears, the audio, right? And so that's

• 49:28Speaker 02

  the person and how they're moving, what they look like, the sound of their voice, the meaning of their words, and also the environment all around you, sort of reading the room. All of this is required when you're listening. So perhaps it's no surprise that listening is incredibly effortful. You need to be perceiving all of this information. And then in your mind, you elaborate and think more deeply about some of it. We can't really take it all in and think about all of it. And the third step of listening, that's so unique to conversation, is the expression of listening. It's not that you just hear and see things and then think about it. You

• 50:09Speaker 02

  can actually say and show your partner that you've heard them. So, Michael, just now, you've made a really great distinction between talking and listening. The only way I can say that back to you is because I heard you say it in the first place. I'm thinking about this distinction very carefully. I'm compelled by it. And now I have the ability to repeat it back to you and affirm the distinction and say, hey, I'm willing to go there with you. Let's do this together.

• 50:37Mike Carruthers?

  One of the tricky parts of conversation seems to be ending it, especially if it's not going well, or you get one of those people who answers with one-word answers, and you find yourself in a conversation that's going nowhere. How do you, what do you do?

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Yes. There is fantastic research on conversational endings by behavioral scientists, Adam Masriani and Gus Cooney. The end of a conversation, if we think of a conversation as the series of coordinated decisions between two people, the end of the conversation is the last coordination decision. It's saying, okay, the next topic we're going to choose is silence, and we're going to walk away from each other, and it's over. And so even though that begins at the very start of like, where, what are we going to talk about now, and now, and now, and now, and then we get to the end, and somebody has the power to end it. So just like every other coordination choice, this ending decision is surprisingly

• 51:42Speaker 02

  difficult and causes a lot of awkwardness. In their study of conversational endings, they found that essentially, we can't read other people's minds about when they would like to end. We're not even really that great at knowing when we would like to end a conversation. And because of this, almost no conversation ends when you want it to. Like, we're just bad at guessing. Which is, on one hand, sort of depressing, on the other hand, I think very empowering. So it's saying like, "Look, you're gonna get it wrong anyway." So as soon as you start to feel like a conversation is running out of juice, just leave. Like, just end it. It's okay.

• 52:21Mike Carruthers?

  What... I'm curious, like, when you are in a conversation with someone, what are the things that bother you if it's not going well? What are the things that really like, "Oh, here we go. Oh, no."

• 52:34Speaker 02

  You know what's funny? When I talk to people myself, I truly, honestly, have a mindset of, "How can I make this good?" Like, what power do I have? Even in the worst of circumstances, like, it's really... Someone's really struggling. They're really awkward, or they're a windbag, or they're not very nice, or they're boring, whatever. Whatever the challenge is, I love taking that on as a personal challenge of like, "How can I make this interesting? How can I make this productive? How can I make it fun?" It's a sort of treasure hunt for me. And the ways that I most commonly do that and try and pursue the adventure of making it good

• 53:19Speaker 02

  is through question-asking. Trying to ask questions that help us together search for better treasure. Like, how can... I know that every person out there, even those who seem boring, or blustery, or not that nice, I know they have something in their mind that I will be so interested to learn about and uncover. And so, I like trying to figure that out. I also, I find many people to be sort of too serious and a little boring. And so, I have a sort of personal mission of injecting levity. Through humor, but also through warmth moves, like flattery,

• 53:59Speaker 02

  and just changing the topic to unexpected, unexpected things. My friend calls it "breaking the pace." I like to break the pace sometimes.

• 54:09Mike Carruthers?

  Well, when you think about all the conversations we have, most of them are unplanned. They just go as they go. It's fun to take a look at the anatomy of a conversation and why some go really well and some go not so well. And I appreciate you explaining all this. Alison Wood-Brooks has been my guest. She is a professor at Harvard Business School and author of the book, Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. And there's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Allison. A good conversation about conversation.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me, Mike. I've had such a great time.

• 54:49Mike Carruthers?

  If you drive enough, sooner or later, you will see someone on the side of the road with a blown tire. And you've probably wondered, well, I wonder what causes that? Maybe they hit a nail or a piece of glass or something. Well, the biggest reason for tire blowouts isn't that. It's under inflation. When your tires are underinflated, the sidewalls become weak and the tire is more likely to blow out while you're driving, which can be very dangerous. Another big reason tires blow out is overinflation, which can cause your tires to pop like a balloon, again, with very serious consequences. The best advice

• 55:30Mike Carruthers?

  is to make sure to check your tire pressure once a month and follow the inflation recommendations in the car owner's manual, not the inflation number on the side of the tire. That's the maximum pressure that the tire can take, but not necessarily the ideal pressure. And that is something you should know. If you enjoy this podcast, you can share your thoughts by leaving a rating and review on whatever platform you listen on, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox, whichever one, please leave a rating and review. Appreciate it. Thanks. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thank you for listening today to Something You Should Know.

• 56:24Speaker 03

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalised products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.