376: Exploring Murphy's Laws of Combat with JP Dinnell

"Murphy's Law" took on a life of it's own in many industries. This part of the list of "Murphy's Laws Of Combat". Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 376 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:05JP Dinnell?

  Good evening.

• 0:06Jocko Willink?

  Also joining us tonight JP Dinnell. Good evening JP.

• 0:09JP Dinnell?

  What's going on?

• 0:10Jocko Willink?

  If you don't know who JP is JP was the lead sniper and point man in Delta Platoon with me in Task Unit Bruiser. He was a CQC instructor. He was an urban warfare instructor when we worked together at the Training Command for the West Coast SEAL Teams and now we work together at our leadership consulting company which is called Echelon Front. He's a leadership instructor. He's the director of our experiential training. That includes our battlefield reviews, that includes our council offsite and our field training exercises. Anything? Did I miss anything JP?

• 0:49JP Dinnell?

  Chief Training Officer.

• 0:51Jocko Willink?

  Did I say, what did I say?

• 0:52JP Dinnell?

  You call me the director. That's Cody's title now.

• 0:54Jocko Willink?

  Damn. Already got promoted above what I knew.

• 0:57JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:00Jocko Willink?

  Chief Training Officer.

• 1:01JP Dinnell?

  Which is funny because

• 1:04JP Dinnell?

  nobody cares about the title. I mean, we care about the titles.

• 1:06Jocko Willink?

  Apparently I don't care.

• 1:07JP Dinnell?

  But nobody really like is like wrapped up around the titles at Echelon Front. It's like, hey, I'm the janitor.

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  I'm the Chief Janitorial Officer.

• 1:14JP Dinnell?

  I'm happy to have a seat at the table. You call me whatever you want.

• 1:18Jocko Willink?

  JP has been on this podcast before, number 46, number 246 and number 309. If you want to hear about his background, about our background together, go check those out in order. You know, the first one talks about, you know, our experiences, his experience in BUDs and in the teams and all that. And then 246 and 309 also. So thanks for stopping by JP. So while we were in the teams, as I just mentioned, we taught the laws of combat leadership to SEALs that were getting ready to deploy during our timeframe. It was mostly Iraq and Afghanistan.

• 1:55Jocko Willink?

  As it turned out, those leadership principles are also applicable in all leadership situations. And now at Echelon Front, we teach those principles that we learned from combat. We teach them to leaders in, at every level,

• 2:11Jocko Willink?

  in every size business, in literally every industry there is. But those principles that we teach are not the only lessons, lessons that transfer from combat to life because on this podcast we've covered. I want to say hundreds, but we've covered, I would say in the neighborhood of 100 books about war, maybe 200, something like that, where we take those lessons, those principles, and, and explain and explore how they apply to business, how they apply to life, how they apply to leadership in any situation. There's one set of principles though that I have not covered yet.

• 2:51Jocko Willink?

  One, kind of a mythological document, and it's a document that spells out yet another series of laws of combat. And I think that this series of laws of combat is perhaps the most popular laws of combat amongst the troops. And these are known as Murphy's Laws of Combat. So if you're in the military, you've definitely heard of these before. You may not know that Murphy was a real person. Murphy was an actual human being. He was a captain in the Army, actually in the Army, in the US Army Air Corps, and he served, he graduated from

• 3:34Jocko Willink?

  West Point, 1940, was in World War II, but he was in the Army Air Corps during World War II. He fought in the Pacific Theater, he fought in India, China, Burma. After the war, he attended the Air Force Institute of Technology, eventually ended up as a test engineer at Mirac Army Airfield, which became Edwards Air Force Base. That's a lot of famous things happened at Edwards Air Force Base. But while he was there, they were doing, this is now in like the early 19, or sorry, late 1940s, early 1950s, they're working on all kinds of stuff. One of the things they were working on was measuring G-forces applied to pilots. And so they start with crash test dummies, and then they move to chimpanzees, and then they move to humans,

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  and they put them under these various G-forces. And you had to measure these G-forces. So they were, they were wiring these suits, or wiring, yeah, wiring the chimpanzee, or wiring the human, or wiring the crash test dummy to measure these G-force that was getting put onto the pilots. And in one of these test cases, the sensors, they look at the sensors and they all say zero. And like, you know, it's expensive, you know, you gotta run these tests and put everything in there and get everything set up. And then you run the test and then, hey, what do the sensors say? Oh, they just say zero. So they're in the wrong. And the, the story goes that Murphy blamed it on one of his assistants.

• 5:04Jocko Willink?

  And this is another engineer gave the quote that he said, if that guy has any way of making a mistake, he will. He's talking about his assistants. So he placed, he placed blame. And the other engineers decided that that attitude of if it can go wrong, or if it, if it can't happen, it will happen, it should be called Murphy's Law. So they actually named this thing after this guy, this, this, this, uh, young lieutenant Murphy. And I don't have his full name in here. Anyway, so this guy, sorry, Captain Murphy, that's where, that's where it sort of started by, and it grew from there. So 1955, there's an issue of Aviation Mechanics Bulletin, and it said, Murphy's Law. If an aircraft part can be installed incorrectly,

• 5:49Jocko Willink?

  someone will install it that way.

• 5:54Jocko Willink?

  And eventually it included everything that can possibly go wrong, will go wrong. And it took on a life of its own. And what's funny is when I started doing research, they have different, different industries have their own set of Murphy's Law. You're, you're nodding your head. Have you seen this before? No, but that makes sense to me. I, I mean, I found it for coding. You know, there, there's, you pick an industry and they have their Murphy's Law, but it all stems from this guy who didn't take ownership and blame someone else, which is, you know, we, we know we don't support that. But it certainly took on a life in, inside the military. And over the years, soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines have added their own laws. And there's a bunch of different versions of this, and I kind of compiled what I thought were the most pertinent.

• 6:39Jocko Willink?

  And so without further ado, further delay, we'll get into Murphy's Laws of Combat.

• 6:47Jocko Willink?

  So here we go. The first one. And look, these are when you go and pick, pick a list because there's all kinds of lists. Different, different things are law number one. I like this one for the first one. If the enemy is in range, so are you. And, and that's, that's, that obviously, you know, that's one of those things you go, oh, man, you kind of shake your head. And also you remember that, for instance, I remember the first Gulf War, I wasn't in it, but, and I forget the numbers. But the old Soviet tanks that the, that the Iraqis were using had like a max effective range of whatever it was, 3,000 meters.

• 7:29Jocko Willink?

  And the American tanks was like twice that. So you literally do not stand a chance. So that's actually wrong. Now, that being said, as we know, if you're exposed, you know, when you, when you get yourself into a position and you, you can see the enemy, there's a decent chance that the enemy can see you. And generally speaking, it's good to think that if you can shoot the enemy, the enemy can shoot you. So what that also means, from my perspective, is when you engage with someone else, when you engage with someone else,

• 8:06Jocko Willink?

  you throw a shot out at somebody, you, you just offered up that that's what we're doing, right? So when you want to start, whatever kind of game you want to play, when you start it, you can expect reciprocation. So if I have a professional relationship with JP, the minute I say something, you know, let's say, let's say it's a professional relationship, but, but I'm your boss. And I decided I'm going to make a little, you know, a little sarcastic comment.

• 8:32JP Dinnell?

  Hypothetically, right?

• 8:33Jocko Willink?

  Hypothetically.

• 8:36Jocko Willink?

  Please do not report me to HR. Hypothetically, if you make that sarcastic comment to someone on your team, when they make it back to you, you can't be mad.

• 8:47JP Dinnell?

  No.

• 8:47Jocko Willink?

  You cannot be mad. So when you are in range, when they're in range and you take shots, that means you're in range too, and you're open season. So I would say this, especially from a leadership perspective. You don't come out of the gate with sarcasm. You don't come out of the gate cracking a bunch of jokes. You know, this goes back to Hackworth saying, hey, I wouldn't, I wouldn't smile on anybody for four weeks because I wanted them to know I was business. I put this in that same category that what you give in a relationship and your behavior is what you're going to get back. So pay attention to it. It also can be in a positive way, too. When you behave with

• 9:29Jocko Willink?

  nothing but professionalism, most likely that's what you're going to get back. So pay attention to that. What you dish out is what you're going to get back.

• 9:40JP Dinnell?

  I wrote down capabilities in the situation because as soon as you're like, hey, if they're in range, you're in range. I'm immediately thinking as a sniper, I'm like, not necessarily. Like if I'm behind my 300 wind mag in a building, two rooms deep, like you have zero clue where I'm at. And if you're walking out around the streets with an AK or like, but that's the situation that you're in. So you have to be aware of the situation that you're in, what your capabilities are before you start engaging with people. And then I wrote down recon by fire because like when you're saying like, like, hey, you gotta be careful saying stuff to people. A lot of times people will do that just to try to get a response. They want like, they want to test the environment. They want to see what's going on. And if you can stay detached from your

• 10:24JP Dinnell?

  emotions and have some tactical patience, like we would teach our guys like, hey, just because they're shooting in your direction, doesn't mean you need to shoot back because now they know exactly where you're at. They might have, they have zero clue where we are at in an urban environment, taking random pop shots. Doesn't mean we have to shoot back. Now, could we? Yeah, but we also pose a threat of completely giving up our location, which now we don't have that advantage anymore. So.

• 10:53Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent. So what's great about that is, you know, now I'm the boss, you're, you're one of my employees. You make a sarcastic remark to me. Now you're in range and I'm allowed to, but guess what? As soon as I make something back, now we're, now it's open season. Recon by fire is complete by you. Now we're in a different situation. I've, I've.

• 11:16Jocko Willink?

  Entered the game. A game that really, a game of sarcasm. If I don't know you very well and we got a bunch of people around, I shouldn't be entering that game. In a leadership position, shouldn't be. Can't afford to right now. Now, as we get to know each other better, of course, we'll, we'll loosen up over time. But that's a great point. That recon by fire, you know, if you were to say something sarcastic to me and I either just let it die, or maybe I gave you a serious answer, you know, if you're like, who thought of this plan? And I said, actually, you know, the plan is coming down from, we, we talked to the, you know, the headquarters and they actually, here's what we're doing. And I just gave you a deadpan answer. I would actually just put you in check. A little bit, yes, you know, not a jerk about it. Just answer it seriously.

• 11:59Jocko Willink?

  That's the plan. So there you go. If the enemy is in range, so are you. Next one. Nothing is ever as, as easy as it looks. Obviously, this is true. And I'll just throw the number three behind that, which is everything takes longer than you think. And this is something that, that, that BTF Tony would say, um, he'd say, everything takes a half an hour, you know? Doesn't matter what you're doing. It's going to take a half an hour. Like, oh, that's going to take a half an hour. Everything's going to, well, we're just loading the vehicles. Yep. It's going to take a half an hour. What do you say?

• 12:30JP Dinnell?

  If you have kids, you know that to be true also.

• 12:33Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it might, might be 45 minutes. But, you know, I've, I'll tell you where I fall into this trap is your brother, Echo Charles?

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 12:43Jocko Willink?

  Back in the day, we'd be talking about something and, and I would, you know, I'd say, well, just make that, you know, just make an app that does that. You know, cause he's a, cause he's a, I like to call him what he doesn't like to be called. He's a computer programmer. He doesn't like to be called that. He likes to be called a software engineer. Am I right?

• 13:00Speaker 02

  Uh, if I remember correctly, yes.

• 13:02Jocko Willink?

  So I'd be like, well, you're a computer program or just program. First of all, he'd say, I'm not a computer programmer, a software engineer. Which, you know, I know we don't care a lot about titles, you know, but, but we do care about titles. Sometimes we're getting hit with that. So I would always just think, well, just do it, you know, just make it happen, whatever. And it's not as easy it looks. And especially when you're in a leadership position.

• 13:28Jocko Willink?

  And you make a little adjustment to how something's going to be done. Just a little adjustment. Just a little adjustment. And I tell the story about I was on an ARG platoon, so we're on a ship. And we get tasked with some mission, a training mission. We're like off the coast of California, we gotta do some training mission. We gotta go do a recon or something. And the first tasking we do is like, hey, you guys are going to launch your boats. And, you know, drive your boats into the beach, go over the beach. And we're like, okay, cool. So we start prepping the boats. Now on a ship, you, that means you gotta go get gas and you gotta bring that gas down from the wherever. And it's a big, everything's a gut check. So it takes us four and a half hours to get the boats ready to launch. And then, you know, we get a call on the radio, actually, you guys are going to take helos. Actually, you're going to do a helo cast.

• 14:12Jocko Willink?

  So now you gotta get the boats ready to put in the back of a, of a CH46. Okay, so now we gotta bring all the boats from the bottom well deck up to the top. You, I can't even begin to explain what a pain in the ass this is. It's little stairwells, you're bringing the stuff up. We couldn't get the elevator, like there's all these things, like every Murphy's Law, that big elevator is broken. So it's just, of course. So you're doing all, so we get, so finally it takes us another four hours to get everything up there and get these things rigged with chem lights to be launched out of there. But you gotta deflate them a little bit, you gotta put the air, the air canisters in there so you can inflate it with it. I mean, it's a total gut check. Guess what? Soon as we're, just as we're putting the finishing touches on those limp ducks. Nope. Hey, actually, it looks like you guys are going to launch by sea.

• 14:58Jocko Willink?

  So the decision that our leader was making, which was, oh, oh, you guys want to, you guys want them to use the helicopters? Cool, they're use the helicopters. Five hours of intense, hard work. Not, by the way, we're not planning, we're not doing mission gear prep. We're not studying the, the area that we're going into. We're just getting the gear ready.

• 15:18Jocko Willink?

  So I call this, I call this thing the whip. Because it just moves a little bit at one end and it cracks everybody at the end. But the, especially from a leadership perspective, to remember that nothing is ever as easy as it looks. And everything takes longer than you will think. And that's magnified, I would say, fivefold. When you're a leader, there's five times the amount of things, five times the amount of time that it's going to take for these things to happen.

• 15:50Jocko Willink?

  What do you got JP? You're taking, you're writing some, something down. What do you got?

• 15:53JP Dinnell?

  Well, I'm writing down my random thoughts and then also my own selfish takeaways. Just, I've heard you tell that story and I think we were at an FTX, one of the individual FTXs that we were running. And you were telling that story and Cody and I, we have used it throughout the years as well of just like, it's a great example of like not understanding just what doesn't seem like a big deal to you as a leader. It has a, a massive effect on your team. And the thing that you don't understand, I mean, yeah, you have a good relationship. You're in the SEAL teams. You're like, hey, this is part of it. But how much of a leadership withdrawal are you making every time you ask the guys, hey, we gotta go do this. We gotta go do this. I mean,

• 16:35JP Dinnell?

  there's part of it where the guys are just gonna be like, hey man, this is part of it. Like, I get it. And we're so lucky and blessed to have guys like that in the SEAL teams that are just like, hey man, cool. It's a, it's a withdrawal, but not a massive withdrawal. But to some people, that whole thing back and forth is a massive withdrawal to the point where you and I both know, guys, I got out of the military. Because of stuff like this that we're talking about.

• 17:00Jocko Willink?

  The third time, look, one time, we get it. Cool. Two times, we're like, bro, what is wrong with these people?

• 17:05JP Dinnell?

  Three, we're fighting.

• 17:06Jocko Willink?

  The third time is like a strike, you know? We're pissed.

• 17:09JP Dinnell?

  And you start to think like, are they messing with me? Like, is this a test? Like, you know, I just.

• 17:14Jocko Willink?

  So now from the subordinate position, so when you're, when you're a frontline trooper, you've got to make sure that you're actually conveying what's going on up the chain of command. When you say, hey, boss, I just want to make sure you understand something real quick. When, when you, when you tell us to move the stuff, we have to actually break down the boats. That takes us at least one hour. We have to call the ship's crew to set up a chain of people to move gasoline. They have to shut down certain compartments because it's a fire hazard. That takes probably at least an hour and a half. Then we have to go and build these other things. So we just spent 10 hours between these two switches that you just made. We haven't actually started planning yet. I want you to know what's going on because this is not as easy as it might seem.

• 17:58Jocko Willink?

  So for number one, like you said, if you have a good relationship up the chain of command, you say, hey, boss, hold on a second. I just want to make sure you know what this is, what, how this is impacting us down here because a lot of times they just don't know.

• 18:10JP Dinnell?

  They don't.

• 18:10Jocko Willink?

  They just don't know. I know it's funny. Like sometimes I'll tell, I'll, I'll be like, hey, JP, let's do this. And I can tell within one second of looking at your face that whatever I just said is not a good idea. You know, if I'm like, hey JP, why don't we go ahead and uh, let's do this next run over on that other training site. And I can see that for me, I'm just like, oh, let's go to the other training site. And you're like, okay. Okay. Just real quick. I've got a bunch of pyrotechnics that are all rigged and ready to go on the first training site. I've got all my role players on there. They've been briefed. It took us 20 minutes to brief them and it took them 40 minutes to get in position. The pyrotechnics took about an hour to get ready. And you just want to switch training sites? Are you sure about that? I'm like, dude, I'm sorry.

• 18:49JP Dinnell?

  Nevermind.

• 18:50Jocko Willink?

  Do what you gotta do. So that's a good relationship. It's also making sure that you're paying attention. Like I can tell when I, cause I also know that if I was like, hey, here's why, you know, here's what's going on. The, the, the leader of this group, they already hit that training site three times before we dropped them from his last platoon and he knows that little trick. So he's waiting for, he's ready. We need to do something different. Like you'd be like, all right, well, we can make it happen.

• 19:15JP Dinnell?

  And then I can relay that to the guys that I'd be pissed off. You're like, hey, here's the deal. You bring them in like they're, it's, there's so much power when you just bring your people in. Hey, bring it in real quick. And you're just sharing information with them. Like you're not sharing like any, any like insider information, but you're just sharing it from, people want to know what's going on. That's where leaders fail all across the world by not actually talking to their people. And you look at this from a like a relationship standpoint with your spouse. I mean, that's what causes a lot of friction at home for a lot of people. I know that's what's caused friction for me in the past of just forgetting like, oh, I need to be very mindful of communicating all these things with my wife.

• 19:56Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 19:56JP Dinnell?

  All these things with my kids. And it's the same thing with the FTX team. And I've done this a few times with the FTX team because I'm, you know, Cody's running all the field training exercises now. And I'll come in and I'll just be completely detached and I'll, I'll ask something or hey, what if we were to do this? And it's funny what you've been saying. I've seen that with Cody a few times and he's, he's so squared away and he's like, the programs are absolutely incredible. And he'll be like, I mean, yeah, we could do it. And then he'll explain it to me. I'm like, hey, never mind. Like, never mind. Like, we're good. Keep, keep doing what you're doing, buddy. Um, so it's, but the other thing is, yeah, leaders need to be aware of that. But man, it's, there's so much power in leading up the chain of command.

• 20:37Jocko Willink?

  100%.

• 20:37JP Dinnell?

  If, if your people, if you are down in the chain of command and you're feeling this whip effect, your leadership does not want to be doing this to you. That is not their goal. Your bosses are not coming in saying, man, you know what? I'm gonna make Echo's life miserable today. I'm gonna change stuff. No, that's like, that's not what they're doing because they know that's counterproductive to your organization, growing and expanding and being able to actually go out there and dominate. So you actually have to learn how to lead up the chain of command, which is very difficult to do.

• 21:06Jocko Willink?

  This is one of the key components of why people say, don't forget where you came from.

• 21:10JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  Because when you forget where you came from, you're like, hey, just move the boats down to the well deck, you know? And, and look, let's face it, sometimes there's people that have never moved a boat from the well deck to the flight deck. They don't even know what that's like. So you can't expect them to know it if they haven't done it, which means, as you said, you gotta lead up the chain of command. Boom. All right. Number four. This is the kind of one of the famous ones. Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. And then I'll just throw in number five, which is there's no such thing as a perfect plan. So, uh, anything that can go wrong will go wrong. This is, this is what will happen. And it's gonna happen at that. This is what, this is the definition of Murphy's Law, right?

• 21:50Jocko Willink?

  When we think of Murphy's Law, anything that can go wrong will go wrong, which means that you have to plan accordingly. And that's why I included the second one here, number five, there is no such thing as a perfect plan. Now,

• 22:06Jocko Willink?

  the perfect plan will crush people. Attempting to get a perfect plan will crush so many people. It will crush so many people's efforts.

• 22:16Jocko Willink?

  I'm much more concerned about making a flexible plan than a perfect plan. Why? Because things are going to go wrong and we are gonna have to be flexible. So don't get wrapped around the axle of a perfect plan, because a perfect plan.

• 22:32Jocko Willink?

  Is going to come into contact with the enemy, which I'll get to number six now. No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, which Mike Tyson said, no fight survive, no fight plan survives the first punch. Same thing. So we got, we got three, three items right here. Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. There's no such thing as a perfect plan and no plan survives first contact with the enemy. All these to me support the idea that having flexibility is the most positive thing you can do in your planning process.

• 23:04JP Dinnell?

  I mean, you were saying the very first one, and I literally was writing down perfect plan. And then you said, I'll go on the next one, perfect plan. That's the thing, like really smart people get wrapped up in having to have the perfect plan. And people with really big egos get wrapped up in their plan being the perfect plan. You're like, hey, there is no perfect plan. They're legitimate. And I always ask people, I'm like, all right, cool. Hey, how many people want their plan to be the perfect plan? And everybody raised their hand because yes, we all want that. And then I asked people, how many of you have ever seen a perfect plan executed? Where nothing needed to be modified, changed, everything from your timeline to the consumption and all these things was perfect.

• 23:47JP Dinnell?

  I mean, I, you guys brought me on board as a first instructor over six years ago. I've been asking this question for six years. Guess how many hands have been raised? None, because there isn't the perfect plan out there and people get so wrapped up into it because of their egos and that's what destroys people. And then you, you talk about the morale that you ruin with the relationships with your people, like pushing them to see that perfect plan and it's, it's hard because we want to find that balance though, because now people will get into the whole, you know, you know, people will try to play the flip side of it and be like, oh, so you don't want your people to pursue perfection? No, that's not true. I do want my people to pursue perfection, but they need to understand that. Like it's the pursuit of perfection that we're looking for. I want my people to pursue

• 24:32JP Dinnell?

  it, to be thriving for it, to try to get better, try to get better, try to get better. We always want to have that constant improvement of what we're doing, but let's not get wrapped up to the point where we can't execute.

• 24:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. With a flexible plan comes a flexible mindset. And what made me think of that was when you just said, um, if someone's ego, they're, they're going to stick with their plan. And I, we've seen that countless times. We've seen in business, we see in the military that people have a plan and they roll in there and they don't want to change it. And they just drive that bad plan into the dirt. As a matter of fact, I was talking to a military group today. And I got asked, if you, when you went into, when you took your task unit to Ramadi, is there anything that you would have done differently from a mindset perspective?

• 25:25Jocko Willink?

  If you were going into a different theater of operations right now, for instance, European theater of operations, Eastern European theater of operation, is there anything that you would, would do different from a mindset perspective than you did when you went in, your task unit showed up in Ramadi? And I thought about it for a second. And I thought about it a little bit more.

• 25:50Jocko Willink?

  And then I said, actually, no.

• 25:55Jocko Willink?

  And I said, let me tell you why. When we went into Ramadi, I didn't go in there. I went in there with an open mind. I went in there, I wasn't quite sure how things were going to go. I wasn't sure what type of specific operation out of all the capabilities we had. I didn't know which one we was going to get focused on. I wasn't sure how we were going to task organize. And my mind was open to say, oh, this looks like a thing going on over here. And there's something we could add to here and we could help this situation over there. That was my mindset. It was just open. It's the same thing for every deployment that I've ever gone on. Oh, here's the situation on the ground. I don't go into a situation on the ground thinking, oh, I'm going to impose. My thoughts and my ideas on the situation. No, I'm going to say what is happening. I'm going to ask people.

• 26:40Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to listen to what they're saying. I'm going to read about what's happening. And I'm going to go into situations with an open mind. So when we talk about the fact that anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Well, that means if you have a closed mind, as soon as something goes wrong, you're lost. There's no such thing as a perfect plan. So don't waste a bunch of time trying to come up with a perfect plan. Instead, come up with a flexible plan. And then it's not going to survive first contact anyways. So you have to have an open mind so you can adjust.

• 27:06Jocko Willink?

  If you don't have that, that's when things fall apart. I would say that's the main component of starting something is having an open mind and listening to the feedback.

• 27:17Jocko Willink?

  All right.

• 27:19Jocko Willink?

  Number seven. Incoming fire has the right of way.

• 27:27Jocko Willink?

  And what I, what I like about that one is the recognition that there are things that supersede other things. And there are things that happen in life, that happen in business, that when they happen, that's the most important thing. And if you don't pay attention to those things, if you don't understand what incoming fire is, and actually, if you don't talk to your people and explain to them what things represent incoming fire inside your organization, you're going to have problems. So, look, it might be safety. It might be customer service. It might be client relations. There are things that take precedent over other things. I mean, how many times at Echelon Front, like, everybody knows that

• 28:11Jocko Willink?

  the, the relationships with the client is incoming fire. It has the priority over everything else. If I'm about to miss a flight and JP's about to go to his, to a birthday party with his daughter, and they're going to a beautiful restaurant, and he gets the call that says, hey JP, you gotta get on a plane in 48 minutes to cover for Jaco. JP goes, Roger that. Cool. Yep, that's what's happening. That, we all know that that incoming fire is the most important thing. So, think about that in your business. What is, what represents incoming fire? In your family, what represents incoming fire in your family? Is it finances?

• 28:54Jocko Willink?

  Is it, is it the relationship that you have with your kids? Cause you know JP, JP might say, actually I cannot go. I missed my last two events, three events with my daughter. I promised her, if JP said to me, I promised my daughter, I would be there.

• 29:13Jocko Willink?

  Guess what? JP would be going with his daughter. That would supersede the situation. And by the way, that kind of stuff has happened. You know, we've had, we've had some, some, you know, things happen where family took precedent over what's happening with business. We have times where the business takes precedent over family because those things get prioritized. But everybody understands what the incoming fire is. What is the priority for this situation that we're in right now? So think about that. Sure. On the battlefield, incoming fire has the right of way. What does that mean in your business and life?

• 29:50JP Dinnell?

  So it's, it's awesome. You know, before we started the podcast, we were just talking about different stuff. And I, I didn't say incoming fire, but I had a very similar conversation about this with my buddy Josh in a, in a company, in a business that we're starting. And then also with my other buddies, Steven and Tyler, another business like, like, hey, we got, we, there's some stuff we need to line up and dial in. As, as we're getting ready to launch these companies.

• 30:14JP Dinnell?

  I didn't say incoming fire, but it's like the exact same thing. It's like, hey man, we, we have to get these things. And it actually was prompted just from some of the stuff that we're doing at Echelon Front. And it, I'm, I'm sitting here laughing and smiling because I was on vacation when Jamie called me one time on vacation, literally driving.

• 30:29Jocko Willink?

  Were you in Florida?

• 30:30JP Dinnell?

  Yes, we were headed to Florida. We weren't there yet.

• 30:33Jocko Willink?

  Who were you covering for? Was it me?

• 30:34JP Dinnell?

  It was going to be for you. And

• 30:37Jocko Willink?

  What happened to me?

• 30:38JP Dinnell?

  It was the one where you had to charter the private plane to get there in time. You got there 45 minutes prior.

• 30:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that one. Yeah.

• 30:44JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, that was a, but I mean, I was

• 30:47Jocko Willink?

  The client never knew.

• 30:48JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, they never did. You rolled in there like 45 minutes prior.

• 30:51Jocko Willink?

  I went to my hotel room, washed my face, walked back down.

• 30:54JP Dinnell?

  Good morning.

• 30:55Jocko Willink?

  Good morning.

• 30:55JP Dinnell?

  They didn't know I was up.

• 30:56Jocko Willink?

  Zero sleep for 36 hours.

• 30:58JP Dinnell?

  No, but we were halfway on our family vacation. First one we had taken a long time and Jamie called me and I'm like, cool. And it was cool. About Amanda and the kids, like it was, it was no factor for them either. They, they understood like that's the priority. Guess, guess what? We're able to take these vacations because of Echelon Front. But recently I had to, and this is like, I am like uncomfortable even saying this, like, you know, I'll be 40 in, uh, in three weeks. That's not what I'm uncomfortable. I don't care. I think that's awesome. Um, you and I are happy. I'm like, the fact that I'm seeing 40 is legit. Made it. Chaka didn't think I was gonna see 24. So anyways, but I'm, I'm stoked. I'm, I'm super excited to be 40.

• 31:39JP Dinnell?

  But that whole week, I'm literally, I have gigs that whole week. I'm speaking on my birthday. Like, you know, it's like, cool, whatever. I don't get back until like almost midnight on my 40th and like for me and my family, it's not a big deal. But then I got a last minute thing. It was like, hey, need you, you would help cover down on this gig on the 18th. It's local and I'm like, cool. No factor. Like we talked through it. And then when I was talking with Amanda, the kids, nothing was said, but I could tell, I was like, you know what? I've never done this in six years, never. And I called Jamie and I was like, hey,

• 32:17JP Dinnell?

  I'll obviously be there on the 18th to help this other instructor. But if there's another instructor that could do it, like I would rather them have the money. And for me to say like, I'm giving up money, you know what I mean? Like, but I don't care about that. But for me, it was like having to understand like, hey, I need, I needed to actually do that. And no, we're not doing anything big for my birthday, but it's for me to be there. Like we're going, we're going to get a cabin, you know, somewhere for a couple of days. And it's literally just gonna be Amanda and

• 32:44Jocko Willink?

  You mean you're gonna take care of your family?

• 32:46JP Dinnell?

  Yes, I am.

• 32:46Jocko Willink?

  And spend time with them?

• 32:47JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I know. And it was, you know, and I called Jamie and this is what's so cool about the dynamic that we have at Echelon Front. I'm like super nervous, like sick to my stomach that I have to have this conversation. I do with Jamie and she's like, hey, is everything all right? I'm like, um, and she could tell something was wrong. And I'm like, it's like, she probably thinks it's like actually something big. And I'm like, so I tell her and she's like JP. She's like, you know what? And then she takes ownership of this. She goes, no, you know what? When you and I first talked, I actually knew I should have somebody else take this. You didn't need to be doing this gig, but you were, you wanted to, and you're all about it. She's like, but I should have known. I should have handled this without you. And then it's so we're both doing like, like trying to take ownership over.

• 33:32JP Dinnell?

  I'm like, no, it's actually my fault, blah, blah, blah. But it's funny. Like I actually had to do that. And it was like, no big deal. Amanda and the kids wouldn't have cared. But when I told Amanda, hey, you know what? I'm not doing that thing on the 18th anymore. I'll get home around midnight on the 17th. We can cut out early on the 18th and we don't have to be back until Monday or Tuesday.

• 33:51Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 33:51JP Dinnell?

  We're fine. And to see the change in her face and her posture and her tone and the kids. The kids are all fired up right now. So it's.

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  Hyped.

• 34:01JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, it was, it was cool. Yeah.

• 34:04Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Think about what that incoming fire is and make adjustments as needed. And the next one is related to that one. Don't look conspicuous. It draws fire.

• 34:20Jocko Willink?

  This is a, this is an important one. And it's important because think about this when you open your mouth. Right? You, you, when you open your mouth, you're, you're drawing, you're drawing attention to yourself. And that's when you have a decent chance of drawing fire. So make sure when you open your mouth, you're, you're ready for that. And sometimes you open your mouth to draw fire. But if you're going to open your mouth, if you're going to make that statement, then just make sure you, you, you think about it and you're ready for it. Don't be an idiot.

• 34:52JP Dinnell?

  We had an awesome, awesome stud instructor at Trade at, um, that came over from the East Coast to work with us. And I remember we were teaching guys CQC and the urban warfare training and we're just sitting there talking and. He was made a comment of the guys because I mean, you know, it's funny like the tactical Timmy's will come out when they're like patrolling up to a target. Also now they need to be like hunched over and crushing like, and he was like, just walk like a normal human. And he was telling stories of like what they're doing overseas. And because like other guys were like, well, how'd you get from this point of the bank? And he's like, I just walked up to the front door. And guys like, what do you mean? He's like, I walked normal to the front door. It drew drew no attention.

• 35:32JP Dinnell?

  And then we did what we had to do. And that's something Cody and I will will teach at the FTXs. And that's the point that we're getting to is like, don't draw attention to yourself. We'll tell them like, hey, when you're patrolling, just walk like a human. Just walk like a human, and it doesn't draw attention to you. And it's when you said that I laughed because I'm thinking about this guy like.

• 35:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So don't look conspicuous. It draws fire. The next one is never draw fire to irritates everyone around you, which is definitely a true statement. And this is followed closely by you are not Superman.

• 36:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Which is an important thing to try and remember. The younger you are, the harder it is to remember that. JP most 100% certain was Superman when we were on deployment. And there you go. It's important to remember that, though.

• 36:30Jocko Willink?

  That's followed by if it is stupid, but it works, it isn't stupid.

• 36:36Jocko Willink?

  Right? If if it if it is stupid, but it works, it isn't stupid. So you have those things that you do. You have those lessons that you learn. You have those procedures that work. Use them. You have a piece of equipment that is functional. Utilize it. So there you go. People get a. A lot of times, and we saw this in the SEAL teams for sure, there'd be a some, some new tactic, some fresh tactic, some new piece of gear or whatever that everyone's all excited about. And before it's even been used, people are like, oh, this is definitely what we gotta do. And it's like, let's just make sure that it makes sense.

• 37:19Jocko Willink?

  And then the counter to that is the way we've been doing things. Sometimes it's, it's, it's that way for a reason. So don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

• 37:31Jocko Willink?

  Number 12, there is always a way. And then they have, there's two variants of this one. One is there's, there is always a way. And there's another one that says, there is always a way and it usually doesn't work. So I'm throwing that one out there.

• 37:48Jocko Willink?

  This one, number 13. This is a, an interesting one to think about. If there, if only one solution can be found for a problem, then it is usually a stupid solution. That's an interesting. It's an interesting mindset to have. And where I, what I like about this one is a little while ago, Echo Charles. You and I did a podcast where I talked about the contrarian mindset and utilizing the contrarian mindset to help you see that there might be counterintuitive ways of doing things. If I look at a problem and I go, hold on, what, what if I just pick the opposite of what we're thinking? And what does that do to my mindset? And maybe I'll see some solutions that I wouldn't have seen otherwise.

• 38:33Jocko Willink?

  So I think this to me is like a little bit of a red flag. If my whole team is like, oh, here's what we should do.

• 38:41Jocko Willink?

  At a minimum, I go, hold on a second. If that's the only possibility, let me think about it a little bit deeper. Let me, and what I would do is use a contrarian mindset to say, hold on a second. Wait, is this really the only way to do it? If it's the only way to do it, why are we doing it? Maybe there's a way to totally bypass this thing. So I think that's just a good red flag cautionary thing. If there's only one way, only one solution, at least take a look at it. At least, at least try and take a look at it from a, from a counterintuitive perspective.

• 39:16JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, and if you're doing that, I mean, in any position of the organization, if you're doing it as a leader, if you're doing that as just a, just whatever, it doesn't matter where you're in the organization, you're challenging people to think. You're really challenging them to think. And I remember that's one of the things, you know, when I was at, I've talked about this before when I was in the teams and then we were at trade at, you know, one of my chiefs said, hey, JPR, our goal is to teach these guys how to think, not what to think. Because combat is dynamic, close quarters combat is dynamic, all the stuff that we're teaching, like the combatants program, the marksmanship cell that we developed, it's all very dynamic. We have to make sure we're teaching these guys how to think, not what to think. And when you're saying that, that's exactly what came to my mind.

• 39:57JP Dinnell?

  I was like, no, you're challenging people like, hey, how to think like, and you're also, you're putting a little bit of a pause in that herd mentality of just everybody jumping on the bandwagon like, no, this is the way to do it. Like, hey, we've always done it this way. This is the way it works, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, man, that's a, it's a dangerous, it's a dangerous, just mindset to have and thing to fall into of just like, nope, I mean, look at what you guys are doing at Origin. I mean, everybody, everybody was saying like, it, it just, it has to be done overseas. Because why? That's what people have been told. So they're just regurgitating what they've been told by their parents, their grandparents, their aunts and uncles, whoever, whatever, society.

• 40:40Jocko Willink?

  The whole industry.

• 40:41JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, yes, the whole industry, everyone's been told, like, it can only be done overseas. And people buy into that BS because they've heard it enough and they're not willing to think and challenge it and just be like, well, why? Why not? Until that's what Pete Roberts said, it was like, no, actually. This is what we can do and this is what I'm going to do. And then obviously, when you guys partner together, your mindset and mentality is just completely supportive of that. Like, no, like there, there absolutely is a way to get this done. Oh, there isn't a current way? We'll, we'll make a way, we'll find a way. And that's exactly what you guys have done, which is awesome. And it's what we also teach people to do at Echelon Front is to think and to solve problems. Hey, things are going to happen in your life that you can't control.

• 41:26JP Dinnell?

  You can't control, but you can always control how you react to the things. You can always control your work ethic, your integrity and your discipline. Those things you can control. And I don't know, sorry, I'm going down another rabbit hole. I just, I like that one a lot because you're really challenging people to actually think for themselves and not fall into the just complacent BS lies that we tell ourselves.

• 41:47Jocko Willink?

  Yep, that's all great examples, all great examples. Next one, number 14, never share a foxhole with someone braver than you.

• 41:59Jocko Willink?

  And you know, this actually, when you, when you truly think about this from a tactical perspective, it doesn't make as much sense as it does on the surface. But the, the basic concept is like, hey, if you're hanging around with someone that's braver than you, then that means you're going to be probably putting yourself in some pretty risky situations. So for me, from a business perspective, what this is telling you is, you know, do you want to be in partnership with people that have the same level of risk taking that you do? Because if I'm working with JP and JP has, you know, is willing to take massive risk with his finances and everything, he's just willing to put it all out there and I'm not, we're going to have a problem.

• 42:44Jocko Willink?

  So we want to be relatively close when it comes to risk. We want to make sure that we both have the same risk assessment and the same appetite. That's the word I'm looking, we want to have the same appetite for risk. If you've got a ton of appetite for risk and I don't, we're, we're, we're actually, interestingly, we're actually not aligned. You know, where if you are willing to take a massive amount of risk. And I'm not, and maybe it's like, you know, you're younger than me. And you're like, hey dude, I can follow my face right now financially. I'll put it back together. And I'm like, bro, if I follow my face financially right now, I'm screwed. I don't, I don't, I don't have another at bat. You know what I mean? Whereas Ed, you know, or it might be the opposite. I might be like, oh, we can, we, maybe I got more money. I'm like, oh, we can, we can take risk. And you're like, hey, bro, you don't need to mortgage your house.

• 43:28Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna have to mortgage my house. And all of a sudden, we're not aligned. So we want to find people that have the same appetite for risk. And then we can move forward.

• 43:38Jocko Willink?

  Cause you don't want to be in a foxhole with someone that's like, come on, we're going. Might not be the best call. Be careful if you're in there with JP.

• 43:46JP Dinnell?

  We're going.

• 43:46Jocko Willink?

  Cause you're going.

• 43:49JP Dinnell?

  That's awesome.

• 43:51Jocko Willink?

  This one, definitely a mantra in the SEAL teams and a, and a strange one, funny one. Never stand when you can sit, never sit when you can lay down, never lay down when you can sleep. You know, it's one of those things. And

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  here's the thing, obviously if you take the extremes of this, it's like negative. But if you look at it from a pragmatic way. Hey man, if you get a chance to get your head down, get your head down.

• 44:16JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 44:17Jocko Willink?

  That, that, saying that, if you get a chance to take a knee, take a rest. Yeah, take it. I, Leif and I always joke about the fact that by the time we'd go in the field. I would be so happy to go in the field. Because I know I would get, be able to get some sleep. Because prior to going to the field would just be like that planning cycle and briefing and all that stuff. So you spend, you know, all that time, by the time you go in the field, you're like, cool, man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get in this. I'm gonna get in this building and watch is gonna get set up and I'm gonna put my helmet up against this wall. And I'm gonna sleep for at least an hour and a half.

• 44:49JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 44:50Jocko Willink?

  And feel great.

• 44:51JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. I was laughing because I have programmed my body over the last, I did this quickly, working with you guys at Echelon Front. So I don't, my first night in a new place, I don't sleep well often. Well, what do we do? We go from city to city to city. So what does that mean my sleep is? It's crap. It's literally crap. There's been a few times where I'm literally like. Zero sleep before a gig because I just can't fall asleep. I hear just all the different hotel, whatever. And so that's not good. Obviously you need sleep and you need that rest for recovery. Well, I programmed myself to where when I get on an airplane, I can, I can sleep. I can catch a little bit of sleep. I don't sleep the whole flight, but I can catch enough sleep to like, okay, I'm good.

• 45:34JP Dinnell?

  It doesn't matter if I'm full of energy. It makes zero difference. I get on an airplane, do my thing. When they start getting away from the gate, I literally go, like I start, it doesn't matter. And when we were flying here last night, I mean, it's in the, it's early in the evening. I'm not tired at all. I drank a go on the way to the airport. Like everything's good. Where we start backing up from the gate and my wife Amanda is laughing her butt off because I'm sitting there like,

• 46:05Jocko Willink?

  Just like a little toddler.

• 46:06JP Dinnell?

  Just like, yeah, my heavy eyes. I'm like, my head's nodding. And so I'm like, screw it. I just put my seat back. Out cold, get up to elevation, ding, whatever. And then I'm like, okay, I'm good. Get the computer out, start working, reading, whatever, talking with her.

• 46:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you only sleep during like the takeoff?

• 46:22JP Dinnell?

  It, so as soon as we start backing up from the gate, I put my seat back. I'm out by the time we're going down the runway. I get up to elevation. It's like a good 20, 30 minute power nap. I'll sleep. And then I'm up there. But here's the other thing, when we start the descent, my body starts doing the same thing. So I sleep again. There's been a few where I woke up as we were touching back down and I'm like, oh, my body obviously needed that sleep. But it's when you're reading that, I'm like, that's why I was laughing because I've just, it doesn't matter. I will sleep on a plane because I know I'm not going to get it the first night in a hotel. Like last night in the hotel, like, no.

• 46:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I, I sleep on a plane. I sleep on planes all the time.

• 46:59JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 46:59Jocko Willink?

  I, I get the window seat. I put my head up against the window. Boom. I'm out. What? Oh, now we're landed. Cool. Let's rock and roll. The only time it kind of sucks is when I do the, when I fly east from the west coast to east coast. If I, because I'll fall asleep and I'll try not to, but I'll be like, nope, I'm falling asleep. And then, then if I have a nap like that, it's really hard for me to fall asleep.

• 47:23JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. Cody does the same thing. Cody will be out the whole time coming from Sacramento. When we go out to Michigan for our FTXs or any on the east coast. So I'd be like, so did you fall asleep? Like,

• 47:34JP Dinnell?

  Yep. And so he'll be up all night and it's just that.

• 47:38Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 47:38JP Dinnell?

  Cycle, but.

• 47:39Jocko Willink?

  That's why I like when I have work to do, cause then I get.

• 47:42JP Dinnell?

  Then you power through the work. Yes.

• 47:44Jocko Willink?

  Through the work.

• 47:45JP Dinnell?

  Same thing. What's like what we tell like, I'm sure you or your wife did. I know Amanda and I, when we tell new parents, like everyone's heard this. Hey, when your kids are napping, you should nap too. Like if you have new kids for the first time, if your baby's sleeping, go to sleep.

• 48:01Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 48:01JP Dinnell?

  Cause when you're trying to sleep later, it's gonna go. Like, oh, just feed me nightmare. It's.

• 48:07Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's literally it. If you've got newborn kids, never sit when you can stand, never stand when you can sit, never sit when you can lay down and never lay down when you can sleep. Like that's, that's, that's a newborn kid.

• 48:18Jocko Willink?

  Tactic and it also is important for, uh, you know, when you're, when you're working, when you're deployed, when you've got stuff going on, man, you get five minutes, eight minutes. Take a quick power nap, go the distance.

• 48:29JP Dinnell?

  I also look at this also from the person of just seizing the opportunities that you have in front of you. Like, you know, we're gone a lot, a lot. We were talking about this. Before we started recording and I love it. I love the op tempo. I don't want it to ever change. But when I'm home, I also know that I'm not as home as I should be with my, with my wife and kids. And I've been. Trying to be more mindful of like, just being a hundred percent present. Now there's work I have to do and they get that. Like, hey, I also have a lot of work to do from home. But like the other day I was doing something and it was something that I could do later. It didn't need to be done right there. And Cora's like, hey dad, can we go for a bike ride? I'm like, no, I gotta get this done. And she goes, okay. And she, oh, she didn't, she, and I was like. Hey, go get your helmet on. We're going for a bike ride.

• 49:11Jocko Willink?

  I will stay up late tonight and get whatever done, done.

• 49:14JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. Because when you're asleep, I can do this stuff. When you're asleep, I can't go for a bike ride with you. And so her and Nola were just so, wait, what? We gotta go for a bike ride with you dad? I'm like, yep. Go get all your stuff on. And so they're getting all their stuff prepped and it was cool. You know, we did a little three mile bike ride and they were just so happy about it. And that stuff that I did and that, that I could have been doing. No, I can go do that later.

• 49:38Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent, hundred percent. Um.

• 49:42Jocko Willink?

  Next one, if, if your attack is going well, you are walking into an ambush.

• 49:49Jocko Willink?

  Very complacent, very, very good mindset to have with anything. When things are going well, you should be looking around and say, okay, what's happening? The, uh, the, you know, we used to, yeah, at, at like land warfare and the OPFOR would go quiet. And you'd see, depending on the attitude of this platoon, the OPFOR would go quiet. You'd see the platoon like, oh, they'd relax. Then I'd walk over to like the platoon commander, the platoon chief, and I'd go, hey, man, where's the enemy right now? And they'd be like, I don't know, they, they, they broke contact. And I go, yeah, they're maneuvering and you could see the look on their face. They're like, oh damn, like, of course. So I always think when there's a lull in fire, the enemy's maneuvering. That's what's happening.

• 50:33Jocko Willink?

  You're, you're going in on attack, you're walking and there's nothing going bad. You're walking into an ambush. Pay attention. Complacency kills. Yeah. Uh, and this is a similar one. The problem with taking the easy way out is that the enemy has already mined it. You know, that's that easy path. There's a decent chance it's easy for a reason, you know? The high ground that looks all ripe. You want to get up there? Yep, there's a reason. The enemy probably is thinking the exact same thing and they're going to be ready for you. Um, and then this is another similar one. Actually, all four of these, there's like a group of four. The other, these other two are the enemy diversion you have been ignoring is their main attack.

• 51:18Jocko Willink?

  So when you're looking at your competitor and you're like, oh, they're just doing that to try and throw us off. No, actually that's their main attack, or at least it could be. And the last one is the enemy only attacks on two occasions. When they are ready and when you're not.

• 51:35Jocko Willink?

  And I guess, I guess actually this one goes into it as well. When you have secured an area, make sure the enemy knows too. Cause when you're like, oh yeah, we're good. We got this area secured. The enemy doesn't necessarily agree with you. So all of these are kind of wrapped around the, the theory of, or the idea of complacency. You know? If you are thinking things are going well, what can you do to improve your position? I had that, uh, that guy that at SEAL Team One, we used to do this run.

• 52:05Jocko Willink?

  Back in the day, we called it corn auto run. It was like maybe a six mile or seven mile, but all those, all those streets that we'd be running on are 90 degree angles. And so, one of my buddies who was a really good runner and he would like be competing to see who he could beat. And when he would turn that 90 degree corner and he'd be out of your sight for a second, he would run as hard as he could to increase the distance. And then you'd turn the corner and see how far he was like you break your morale. So that's a good thing to do.

• 52:34JP Dinnell?

  That is incredible. You said this, that story before and I love it. Like I just love hearing that.

• 52:39Jocko Willink?

  When he told me that, I was like, oh, that's such a good idea. Just like turn the corner and break their freaking morale. But all of those things of, of keeping, moving forward, improving your position, not thinking that everything's going to be okay. When you're not ready to attack, when you're not ready for their attack, that's probably when they're going to attack. These are all just keeping a proactive, default aggressive mindset at all times.

• 53:06JP Dinnell?

  I, I use, so you, you, you shared that story with us, October of 2020, when we were doing our all hands thing down in Dripping Springs. And I've always known that mindset and had that mindset. But then when you told the story, it was very like for me. And I've been doing that in jujitsu since. You know, I don't get to train very often. Like if I train four to five times in a month, like that's a good month, just because I'm busy in the priorities. And it goes back to that priority thing. Like, hey, I could go train every day I'm home, or I could spend some time with my wife and kids and try to work on the marriage and family. And then also find training when it's there. It's just when it's just not that top level

• 53:47JP Dinnell?

  priority for me right now. So, but with that being said, so I'll go train and the, you know, the gym I train at in, in Dallas, we're at double five is, I mean, it's, it's awesome. I mean, a slow Wednesday noon class, there's 13 black belts there with 40 people on the mats. I mean, there, we've had up 17, 18, 19 black belts, a high level black belts at a noon class on a Monday, Wednesday or Friday. It's, it's amazing. It's, it's amazing.

• 54:14Jocko Willink?

  That's like, I, I, we had a crew in there the other day and I, I posted a picture of everyone. I just wrote, no easy rounds. You're getting no easy rounds in there. Boy, there was no resting.

• 54:23JP Dinnell?

  I wanted, and that was the day we were leaving. And you're like, hey, you want to train? I'm like looking at everybody. I'm like. Yes, because everybody in here will murder me and I wanted that. Anyway, so the mindset where I'll do for jiu jitsu is like, I'll be getting trashed. Like these guys trash me. But you know who's the first one to stand up after that hard round? Me, every single time. Like, yeah, you just, you just completely trashed me. But I'm gonna stand up and just for that mental, my, and I actually, one of the black belts is like, bro, you know what really messes with me? He goes, I can beat you, but you make it really hard. He goes, and then you just stand up like it's no big deal. And he goes, aesthetically, I look better than you, but you get up like it was no factor. I'm like, I'm just playing mind games with you. He goes, I knew it.

• 55:07Jocko Willink?

  I used to, when I was training a lot of MMA fighters and we'd be putting them in the shark tank, like more, you know, multiple fresh guys and all that. They'd get done with a round and I don't, stands up, stand up, hands up, stand up, hands up, like stand up, put your hands up, like you won that round, like you won that fight every single time. As soon as that bell goes, stand up, hands up. And you'd be surprised how hard that can be for people. There's a lot of times they don't want, I mean, you see it in the UFC, you'll see a UFC fight. You should absolutely 100% when that bell goes, especially that last one, that last bell, the fifth round or the third round. When that bell sounds and the ref steps in, you should stand up, hands up 100% because those judges are watching you and you gotta show them, I'm, I'm not tired. I could go more rounds, whatever.

• 55:50JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 55:51Jocko Willink?

  And it doesn't, I mean, everybody knows that they should do that, but you see it only, it doesn't always happen.

• 55:56JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I'll walk around and be like, get up, grabbing guys, like pulling them up, pulling them up. One of my, uh, one of the black belts I trained with Weston, uh, he's just a stud. I love watching him compete. He's just very high level. And he's always like, we'll be walking around and he'll see me doing it. He'll be like, he'll get up real quick. He's like, I don't want you to grab me. And, uh, just, you know, and let me be very clear. Weston trashes me. Like, like there's literally nothing I can do to him, but it's that mental game that we play with. He's like, I don't want you to get to me when I'm sitting down. Which, you know, and he's competing and doing very well. And now is the point where like, even if guys can't stand up, I don't let them lay on their back. That's a complete sign of defeat, like submission.

• 56:36JP Dinnell?

  When you lay on your back, you are literally accepting complete domination and defeat. If you can't stand up, at least roll over me on your hands and knees. Like at least get to that position. And I was telling one of my buddies that I'm like, he was laying down, we got done doing a workout. I'm like, get up. He's like, I can't. I'm like, roll over. He goes, okay. He rolls over. And I explained to him why he goes, That actually makes a lot of sense. I actually feel better now, but it's just when you're like, like laying on your back.

• 57:02Jocko Willink?

  But think about that. I can't. Of course you can get up.

• 57:04JP Dinnell?

  Yes, you can.

• 57:04Jocko Willink?

  Of course you can.

• 57:05JP Dinnell?

  If you can talk, you can get up.

• 57:06Jocko Willink?

  Stand up, hands up.

• 57:07JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 57:07Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing after the rounds. Stand up, hands up. There you go.

• 57:13Jocko Willink?

  Next one here, number 21. Left to themselves, things will go from bad to worse. Yep. That means that the, the chaotic situation is going to get worse. The, the bad relationship you have with, with your, one of your coworkers or with your boss, it's going to get worse. Not going to get better. The firefight that's going on is going to get worse. The disruption in the manufacturing line that just happened, it's going to get worse. This is why what we teach is being default aggressive. You got to go in there and solve these problems. They're not going to solve themselves. So the hardest one I think people have is the hard conversations. And if they learn how to frame hard conversations in a positive way, they're actually not that hard.

• 57:57Jocko Willink?

  So the classic example, JP's late. Instead of me saying, hey JP, you were late. I'm going to write you up. No, I say, hey JP, I noticed you were late. Is everything okay? And all of a sudden it's not a hard conversation at all. And yet JP knows that, hey, I, I can't be late. Cool. Done. So we got a whole bunch of that stuff, but that is what we're talking about. The earlier you have a hard conversation, the easier it is. And then when you can actually take ownership and have a positive mindset and, and learn to speak things in a positive way, you will be able to have, you'll be able to make even really hard conversations easy.

• 58:30JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I wrote, I wrote down default aggressive.

• 58:33Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 58:33JP Dinnell?

  You know, just getting in there, handling that problem, have that hard conversation. And we all know that nothing gets better. If you just let, any problems that you ignore, they don't go away. They don't get better. Like they get worse.

• 58:46Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, for that one person that's listening right now, that's like, no, actually there's sometimes there's a time to take a tackle pause. Yes, you're right.

• 58:51JP Dinnell?

  Cool.

• 58:51Jocko Willink?

  But that's an actual decision that you're making. And sometimes it's like, oh, you know, two of my employees are, are getting angry at each other, but they're only discussing it. I'm going to let to see if they can resolve it. Okay. But you pay attention. That's a conscious decision that you're making. We get it.

• 59:06JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 59:06Jocko Willink?

  We understand that there's a time for a tackle ball. I usually say seven out of 10 times, action, action beats in action. Seven, three times, it's better just to hold on a second. Let me see what's going on here. Let me watch. Let me, and we, in fact, in the SEAL teams, we teach, you've got to let the situation develop. We actually teach them.

• 59:24JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 59:24Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes you've got to let the situation develop. The better you are, the less you have to wait for that situation to develop because you can already identify what to do. But sometimes you've got to let it develop and see where it's going.

• 59:35JP Dinnell?

  Cause you don't, because you don't recognize the OODA loop that you're in. Now, the more experience that you have, you see things formulating.

• 59:42Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 59:42JP Dinnell?

  You're a lot faster because you're detached. And it's like having the high ground. If I have the high ground, guess what? I can see everything. I can, if I'm on the top of a building with my sniper rifle, I can see everything that's going on around me. If I'm not at the top, if I'm not detached with that higher perspective, I don't see what's developing. So that comes from experience and time and training and all that stuff. And, um, yeah, you got, you gotta get out there and solve those problems. I mean, I was, what we were talking about earlier, both of those two separate businesses I'm helping start up, both of the guys that I'm working with are being super default aggressive right now. Josh, printing company, he's being super default aggressive to get all this stuff set up. Like, hey, cause we were just talking, I'm like, hey, what if we can't get this?

• 1:00:24JP Dinnell?

  What if we can't get this? What do we need to do? And he goes, yep, yep, yep, yep. Steven, with little cattle, with the beef thing, he, like, not getting responses drives to the processing place. And they're like, nobody's, nobody's done that before. He drove there to have a face-to-face conversation, to build a relationship, to shake hands with these guys. And guess what, what we now have?

• 1:00:45Jocko Willink?

  We have.

• 1:00:46JP Dinnell?

  What you need. We have exactly what we need because that was a problem. Not getting responses. Like, hey, man, if we're getting ready to process this beef.

• 1:00:55JP Dinnell?

  We need the ability to actually do it. And instead of just being like, wow, no one's responding. He drove hours in Texas to go in hopes that, you know, and because he was able to do that and be default aggressive.

• 1:01:09Jocko Willink?

  It's it's Cause that problem is not going to go away by itself.

• 1:01:13JP Dinnell?

  Ever.

• 1:01:14Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Number 22. If you can't remember, the claymore is pointed toward you. So if you're not familiar with this, a claymore is a claymore mine. And it literally says on it, front towards enemy. And you're supposed to point that thing where the bad guys are. If for whatever reason you go out, you set up your claymore and you don't remember if you did it right, you did it wrong. And that's one of those things where, you know, did you leave the oven on? Yep. When you when you're driving down, you know, and you think, did I leave the oven on? You left it on. Did I leave the iron on, you know, on my shirt? Yep, you left it on. So

• 1:01:54Jocko Willink?

  assume that you screwed up because you probably did. It's weird how you do things without. And the first time I noticed, I remember I was a new guy. In order like doing CQC, what we used to call CQB. Yeah, then it got turned into close quarters combat. But back in the day when it was CQB, we actually had a, we had a, a new guy. Who's a great dude, but we had everyone had to write their own bullets for their evaluation. And he wrote, you know, uh, went through C cubed B, like C to the third power B. And it's the funny thing is, it's just because he just didn't know. He just heard us talk about CQB. He thought it was CQB.

• 1:02:35Jocko Willink?

  So we like, you know, of course, got him T-shirts that said CQB and whatever else.

• 1:02:42Jocko Willink?

  But what I remember is going into a room when I was a new guy and like going through the, you know, the room or whatever. And then going, oh my God, I didn't put my weapon back on safe. I hope no one notices. And then I realized, oh, my weapon is unsafe. Oh, I did it without thinking about it. You're like, oh, there's going to be some muscle memory happening here. And that's a positive thing, but it's also a little bit. It's a little bit strange to get used to, you know, unless you have that, those mechanics down, that then you can make mistakes and it's good to be able to detach enough to check yourself, to check that muscle memory that's happening and be like, cool, yep, I'm on safe, yep, I'm, you know, here's what I'm doing next. But you will definitely train, you can train some things to a point where you do without thinking. And that's why you leave the house and you don't remember if you turned the oven off. You pro- to go

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  against Murphy's law, you probably did shut it off, you just don't remember it because it's instinctive.

• 1:03:31JP Dinnell?

  How many times you do that with your weapon? You do a press check, press check, put in your holster, retain, retain, okay, yes, retain. You know, it's just, you just.

• 1:03:39Jocko Willink?

  Just habitual. As Pat Max says, make it habitual.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  Rock and roll. Like at late at night, before you go to bed, you know, you check all the doors.

• 1:03:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  Same deal, right? Where it's like, oh, man, you just checked the one, but you kind of forgot that you did it. You go back checking it, okay, I did.

• 1:03:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  Same deal.

• 1:03:56Jocko Willink?

  There you go. It happens, man.

• 1:03:58JP Dinnell?

  The perimeter of your property, you're like, well, no one was there, but somebody's there now.

• 1:04:04Jocko Willink?

  Here's one. No combat ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection ready unit has ever passed combat. And look, you know, obviously you, you've got to have discipline, you've got to make sure things are squared away. Here's, here's the, here's the takeaway from that one. And, and like, like all these things are written to be funny and they're funny because they have an element of truth in it. I probably should have pointed that out of the gate. What makes them funny, what makes them catchy, what makes them fun to read is that they have an element of truth in them. So obviously if there's a combat unit that is all dressed up in their starched camis and their polished boots, they're not ready for combat and they're not gonna, they might pass an inspection, but they won't

• 1:04:49Jocko Willink?

  pass combat. Vice versa, you take a unit that's just been in combat in the field, there's no way they pass an inspection because they all are, you know, all jacked up. So to me, the, the important thing to think about here is, what are you focused on? What are you focused on? What is your business focused on? What are your, what is your team focused on? From a leadership perspective, are you focused on the right thing? Because if you're focused, if you're getting ready to go into combat and you're focused on inspecting people's boots and inspecting their haircuts, you're focused on the wrong thing. If you're in business and you're in manufacturing and what you're focused on is how.

• 1:05:29Jocko Willink?

  You set up your shipping with products that you're not ready to make yet? You're focused on the wrong thing. So make sure that you are focused on things that are pertinent to what's actually happening. No one cares about being ready to ship things that haven't been made yet.

• 1:05:48JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:49Jocko Willink?

  Especially when we're not even be able to ship things that have been made. So let's not get ahead of ourselves. Make sure you are focused on the right thing. Number 24. And by the way, these numbers, you're gonna look at this, these are my numbers. I organized these things and you can tell I kind of put them in groups. I think I got most of them in the right groups, but these are, if you're like following along with some other Murphy's Law, you're not gonna be matched with mine.

• 1:06:17JP Dinnell?

  So before you go to 24, on that last one,

• 1:06:19Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:06:19JP Dinnell?

  I'm just thinking, how many times, I know I've done this a lot as a parent, like how many times do you think parents are out there violating that one? Like just making things a bigger issue than they are with their kids.

• 1:06:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. And that's a great point.

• 1:06:32JP Dinnell?

  So how does a parent remind themselves of that?

• 1:06:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'll tell you how. You read Murphy's Laws and you go, hey, like no kid that ever did perfect in this arena ever was successful. You know what I mean? Like, what are you gonna make your kid good at? You're gonna make your kid good at studying for a spelling bee? You're gonna make them good at interacting with other human beings?

• 1:06:54JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:06:54Jocko Willink?

  Look, the spelling bee is cool, but if you're like, no, I don't want you hanging around with other kids because you've got stuff to study. Okay, you're gonna have a kid that knows how to spell. I'd rather have someone that knows how to interact. I'd rather knows that someone that have a kid that knows how to learn. I'd rather have a kid that knows how to defend himself. Like, so, great point. What are you focused on? You're, you should make sure that your kid is ready for life.

• 1:07:16JP Dinnell?

  Life.

• 1:07:17Jocko Willink?

  To be competent in life and not to be competent in, look, spelling, look, I'm not trying to bag on spelling bees. I get it. It's hard. Them kids can spell. And I'm a terrible speller, by the way. English major. Thank God it was English. I had to read and not like spell. I'm not a good speller. And I don't care. I don't care. I got spell check, homie.

• 1:07:37JP Dinnell?

  I was just gonna say we have technology on our side now.

• 1:07:40Jocko Willink?

  But you know, whatever thing you think might be the most important thing for your kid. And you, if you're, if you're gaffing off a bunch of other important things and even like, like school, school in general, if your kid sits around and studies all day and they don't, they're not involved in athletics. They're not interacting with other people. They're not getting social interaction. They're not learning about, you know, how to support themselves financially, all those things. So be well-rounded. Make sure you're not focused on stupid things like passing an inspection. Do you want your team to be able to pass an inspection? Yep.

• 1:08:14JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Jocko Willink?

  Is that gonna be the main focus? Shouldn't be.

• 1:08:19JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I'm, I'm on performance. Yeah. I want my kids to go out there and dominate in life.

• 1:08:24Jocko Willink?

  And look, you kids that are into spelling bees, cool. Good. That takes a lot of, you've seen how much those kids study?

• 1:08:31JP Dinnell?

  No.

• 1:08:31Jocko Willink?

  It, it's like, I watched a documentary on it, on spelling bee kids. I mean, it's.

• 1:08:36JP Dinnell?

  It's impressive.

• 1:08:37Jocko Willink?

  It's very impressive. It's very impressive that they do that. And, and I, there's obviously life lessons that come from the spelling bee about perseverance, about discipline, about trying to achieve excellence, trying to achieve perfection, as you mentioned earlier. And if your kid has a gift for it and they're into it, okay, let them go.

• 1:08:59JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:09:00Jocko Willink?

  If they're not into it and you're fulfilling your spelling bee dreams.

• 1:09:03JP Dinnell?

  Thank you.

• 1:09:04Jocko Willink?

  Please don't do it. And by the way, if you're fulfilling your jujitsu dreams or you're fulfilling your football dreams, you're fulfilling your, your Ivy League college dreams through your child, just check yourself. Just check yourself, actually check them and make sure that they're aligned with your goals.

• 1:09:18JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:18Jocko Willink?

  Cause if they're not aligned with your goals, then you're not, you're not doing them any favors.

• 1:09:23JP Dinnell?

  I'm thankful my dad was that type of dad because my dad was really good, really good football player, like, like really good football player. And I had some of his same teachers when I went to the same high school. And I remember they're like, you gonna play ball like your old man? I'm like, probably not. And that actually like bothered some of the teachers. Yeah. So one of the teachers.

• 1:09:44Jocko Willink?

  It kinda bothers me right now.

• 1:09:46JP Dinnell?

  Did not, did not like me because of that. And I finally played football my, my junior year because you know what? You know, it was cool. The idea of it was cool, but I also want to do it because I really know that my dad wanted me to do it. I did it. Cool. Whatever. Did that one, that one year. Just wasn't my jam. Like I wasn't like very good at it. I didn't really like it. I wasn't, you know. Yeah, but I, I wasn't like passionate about it, you know, I really enjoyed, I was going, I was doing adventure races. I really liked doing kickboxing and wrestling and that type of stuff. Uh, and then I told my dad, I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna play again. He goes, cool. Like it didn't bother him. And he's like, well, what do you want to do next year? I'm like, I don't know. Water polo. I played water polo.

• 1:10:28JP Dinnell?

  And I wish I would have started that my freshman year because I did it one year and did very well in it. It's like, dude, you're in the pool and you can fight. This is awesome. And, but my dad was super cool and I'm thankful because like not a lot of parents are, are like that. It's like, no, you're going to do this. And then they create the animosity.

• 1:10:47Jocko Willink?

  You got that, uh, you got that fast twitch genetics too, man, like.

• 1:10:51JP Dinnell?

  Played running back one year.

• 1:10:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like you and your dad, we were, we were talking earlier, uh, to us talking to Jay, talking to Jason.

• 1:10:59JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, Jason Kalifa, yeah.

• 1:11:00Jocko Willink?

  When I think, so your dad must've been 50 at the time and, and he was training a little bit of jujitsu. And like we rolled and you know, I'm thinking like, of course I'm, I'm probably like 35 at the time or whatever. And I'm kind of like, yeah, I gotta go easy on the old man. You know, I don't want to hurt him. This dude grabs a hold of like my head.

• 1:11:16JP Dinnell?

  No, he was 45.

• 1:11:17Jocko Willink?

  Forty five. Yeah. He grabs all, and I'm looking at him like, hey, this guy's an ancient, you know, old man, whatever.

• 1:11:22JP Dinnell?

  So old.

• 1:11:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And I'm like, uh, you know, I better just, you know, but he grabs my head and like tries to rip it off. And I was like, this guy is 100% fast twitch muscle. That's what, that's what he's made of.

• 1:11:34JP Dinnell?

  Construction his whole life.

• 1:11:35Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:11:35JP Dinnell?

  At that time, he's doing a lot of brick and block work.

• 1:11:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:38JP Dinnell?

  And so he's just, I remember he would grab two center blocks, like with a pinching method, not like grip, but where they're side by side and lift them up by pinching them and would sit there.

• 1:11:47Jocko Willink?

  And he's doing that all day.

• 1:11:48JP Dinnell?

  All day, but he would sit there and talk with you while he's doing that and you're like. How are you doing that? So he starts doing jujitsu, but yeah.

• 1:11:56Jocko Willink?

  So, so there you go. Don't impose your dreams on your kids, please.

• 1:12:01JP Dinnell?

  Come on.

• 1:12:01Jocko Willink?

  I'm guilty. I imposed a lot of jujitsu dreams on my kids when they were young. Uh, and I should have been a little bit more, I should have been a little bit more open to let them find their own path. And eventually they did find, find their own path to back to jujitsu. Praise God. They found that path back to.

• 1:12:20JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. All of our kids love it. Aiden's really enjoying wrestling and you know, as a parent, like I was trying to figure out that for like he's, he'll be 17 in a few weeks and he's a junior and next year he's senior year and he's gone. Like, I don't know what he's going to go do. I mean, we do know.

• 1:12:36Jocko Willink?

  Jujitsu, but.

• 1:12:37JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, jujitsu and he's going to keep wrestling, but uh, and we'll keep doing jujitsu, but like for the career path, you know, like as a parent, you're like, man, I want my kids to be successful. I want them to win, but I want them to be happy. And you know, it's like as a parent, like I couldn't be more proud of him right now because what he's pursuing, what he wants to do is he wants to go in the ministry. Our church has a college program where he can go through this college program through our church, how, get a degree and like go into the ministry. And our church has a mentorship program for it. It's just like the FTXs that we do in regards. They put people in different positions of leadership and they rotate them through and they debrief and they talk and they do all, it's a really cool program that they have and he's, that's all he wants to do. He wants to keep wrestling, do jujitsu, and then when he graduates, go into the ministry.

• 1:13:22JP Dinnell?

  And this is a cool thing. I want, if this is what he wants to do, I want him to do it, but I think he wants to do it because of what I used to do and what we do at Echelon Front. He asked me, he's like, hey, this is so awesome. He goes,

• 1:13:38JP Dinnell?

  do you know in the military, can chaplains carry a machine gun? Cause he said, he wants to get his degree in ministry, work at our church, and then he wants to go in the military to be a chaplain, but he wants to carry a machine gun. And I'm like, well, you know, by that point, who knows? I don't know, bud, but let's just, you know, focus.

• 1:13:58Jocko Willink?

  He's going to be a chaplain that identifies as a machine gunner.

• 1:14:04Jocko Willink?

  What's cool about that is at a young age, when you have a program, that's what, you know, for you, for me, guys that went into the military at a young age is like, it takes all your random energy that you have and testosterone that you have, and it just focuses, here's what you do. Did you know, I found this out the other day, I was talking to one of my buddies, and he said the below age of 20, making it through BUDs, Basic SEAL Training, is 5%. Sweet. Yep. So like you and me, Jason Gardner, like, we were, we were young, you know, we were, I think, Cowie? Cowie, yep. So it's a, it's a low number, and it's just a matter of maturity, you know,

• 1:14:47Jocko Willink?

  like you don't, and, and there's a physical aspect too. There is. You know, like when you're 18 or 19 years old, you're not fully developed yet, at all. Like you give yourself four or five more years, guys that are 24, 23, 24 years old, going through basic skills training, they, they have much more of their man strength at that point. For sure. Now, you might not be healing up as quick as you freaking young Jaco or young JP, just like, whatever. Legs broke, compound fracture, it'll be okay on Monday.

• 1:15:20Jocko Willink?

  Check. Sorry, I derailed that one. No, that's what we're here for. Oh, no, what I was gonna say about your son is like, oh, here's a path that you can get on, you follow this path and, and life is good.

• 1:15:30Jocko Willink?

  Life is good. You follow this path, life is good. You go in the military, you follow this path, life is good. I think in the old days too, old days, I don't mean that old, but even, you know, nowadays, you might know more about this, Echo Charles, but the number, the average career path now is like, you change, you change jobs every two, three years. A normal person right now changes job every two, three years. Like, that's like a normal kid graduates college three years ago, has probably already had two different jobs. Yeah, it's crazy to me. Back in the day, it was like, oh, you're going to work for Ford, and you're gonna be there for 35 years, period in the story. You're going to work for IBM, you're gonna be there for, you're gonna work down at this, you know, at the water treatment plant, and you're gonna be doing, like, I have friends that went into that. I think I'm a little

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  bit more of the generation that was like, oh, you get done, you get a job at that company. In that factory, in that power company, you know, whatever that job that you go into, that's what you're gonna do.

• 1:16:24JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:24Jocko Willink?

  Most likely at that company, most likely for your whole life.

• 1:16:28JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. And I've thought about that a few times because I mean, you know, I did just under 12 years in the Navy. I, you know, we've talked about why I got out and the decision I made was the right decision for that time in my life. Even though I loved it, I, I still wish I was, I was in, you know? But I remember when I was working at that, that financial company, you know, I was like, cool, I'm gonna do this until I'm done. Cause I just like thought like, cool. And then, you know, a few years into it, things are shifting and changing and I'm like, yeah, maybe I'm gonna go do my own thing. And then, and I felt really weird, like leaving that because I felt like I was like, like I shouldn't be doing that. And then coming up with Echelon Front, I'm like, cool, I'm literally good until the day I die. You know, until you get in labor like, hey, no more, homie.

• 1:17:13JP Dinnell?

  Like I, I'm like here and, you know, and we talked earlier, like I have other businesses that I'm starting and investing into. For the purpose of like, I want my kids to have something to earn, to be a part of.

• 1:17:25JP Dinnell?

  There is nothing else I'm going to do other than Echelon Front in regards to a career. Like this is my life.

• 1:17:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we just had that.

• 1:17:32JP Dinnell?

  This is everything for me.

• 1:17:34Jocko Willink?

  We just got asked that question on, on the underground podcast, like, hey, you know, Jocko, what do you think you'll be doing when you're 60 or 70 years old? And I was like, oh, doing jujitsu, surfing, speaking, writing, doing the podcast, uh, talking to companies about leadership. Like that's what I'll be doing.

• 1:17:46JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Jocko Willink?

  I won't be traveling as much.

• 1:17:50JP Dinnell?

  Eventually that'll throttle back for me.

• 1:17:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, uh, but that's what I'll be doing.

• 1:17:54JP Dinnell?

  Not anytime soon, Jack. Keep booking it. Keep booking the gigs.

• 1:17:58Jocko Willink?

  All right. Number 24, the tough part about being an officer is that the troops don't know what they want, but they know for certain what they don't want. That's a very interesting commentary about human nature is, and it's true about people. Like you try and impose something on something that people don't want, they're gonna tell you.

• 1:18:19JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:20Jocko Willink?

  They might not know what to ask for, but they're gonna know, but hey, here's a conversation my wife will have with me. This is me too. My wife will be like, what do you want for dinner? I don't care. What about this place? No.

• 1:18:33Jocko Willink?

  Right? That's like, I do that all day long with my wife. You just raised the blood pressure of how many million men across the world that are listening right now? And how many million women are just laughing right now? So that is true. It's gonna be, it's always gonna be harder that what that does is it makes it the job for you harder. When you're in a leadership, uh, leadership position, because you're making, they, they can't, sometimes they can't quite tell you what it is that they want to do or how they want to do something. But when you tell them, when you make a suggestion, they don't like your suggestion. So trying to find that balance is an important thing. And leading them down the path by asking them earnest questions, instead of imposing, it's going to be a better, better option.

• 1:19:17Jocko Willink?

  You know, if my wife was to say, well, what kind of mood, what kind of food are you in the mood for? Now she's leading me to say, well, I'm, I'm looking for something different tonight, like a ribeye.

• 1:19:29Jocko Willink?

  As opposed to her prime rib. Yeah, as opposed to her prime rib. Um, next one. Number 25 here. Every command that can be misunderstood will be. Yep. That's, that's why we do read back. That's why when I texted JP, hey, this is what time we're doing the podcast tomorrow. This is what we're going to be talking about. JP texted, Roger, I copy. We will be meeting at this time at this location and the topic will be this. And I texted back affirmative. There's no misunderstanding there. No. That's why we have the read back. And when you think you, man, when you think people understand things, they just don't. They just don't. Listen, there's things that would, when, when I walk into the room, I think JP understands something.

• 1:20:15Jocko Willink?

  He a hundred percent doesn't. Now, when I tell him, now I think, well, since I told him, he understands it. He 70% doesn't. When I explain it to him pretty detailed, and I think he's got a hundred percent, he doesn't, he's got it now. There's still 30% he doesn't understand. I've got to sit down, make sure he fully understands it and then have him say it back to me in his own words, and then we're good. That's the way it works. The minute you assume that people know something or understand something or understand how you want something done.

• 1:20:44Jocko Willink?

  There's gonna be some, there's gonna be some delta in that understanding.

• 1:20:50Jocko Willink?

  Uh, radios will fail as soon as you need them.

• 1:20:54JP Dinnell?

  Yep.

• 1:20:54Jocko Willink?

  And that's, that is a bizarre one. That is a, that is a bizarre, it's, it's, uh, like a UFO, what's it, unidentified flying object, was that a phenomenon?

• 1:21:05JP Dinnell?

  Sure.

• 1:21:06Jocko Willink?

  Right? This happens so much that it seems like it's a phenomenon of life. Like the minute you need, really need something to happen through radios, they're not gonna work. The minute you really need to get a text out, for some reason, your phone's not working.

• 1:21:22JP Dinnell?

  Oh, I have went from being connected to wifi and five bars to SOS on my phone. I'm like, what is going on right now?

• 1:21:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm in my own house and I'm on SOS. I'm like, what is, what is going on?

• 1:21:34JP Dinnell?

  Dude, I know where your mind goes. That's happened to me a few times recently where all of a sudden I'm like, EMP just happened. Activate the plan. Hopefully a man and the kids know to make their way back to the house. We're gonna roll.

• 1:21:44Jocko Willink?

  Move to rally point seven.

• 1:21:46JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, rally point seven at this point.

• 1:21:49Jocko Willink?

  Uh, that means you gotta come up with plans for no comms. In the SEAL teams, we have something called a no comms plan. That means if I haven't heard from JP, by this time, I'm gonna move to this position. I'm gonna look for a visual signal. If I don't get a visual signal, I'm gonna move closer and look for another visual signal. If I don't see it, I'm going in and I'm gonna make contact at a certain position. So we have what we call loss of comms plans or no comms plans. You should have that for everything that's going on.

• 1:22:14JP Dinnell?

  Everything with your family. I mean, and this is not like to scare your family or scare your kids, but this should actually provide comfort to your family and your kids. Amanda knows, hey, if something happens and I'm on the road, if something happens crazy and I'm on the road, you stay at the house.

• 1:22:34JP Dinnell?

  And give me two to three days. There's zero chance I do not make it back to my family within two to three days anywhere in the United States unless I'm dead. And she knows that. I'm like, if I'm not there within three to four, five days, I'm dead. This is what you need to execute. Yeah. And this is what you need to do. And this is not like a fear mongering thing. It's like, hey, we're going to be prepared just in case. And we've talked about with our kids, hey, if this happens and you know, like, and obviously the tone, tact and delivery, when you're talking with your kids about this needs to be completely different than with your buddies and your, you know, your friends and your, and your wife. But like, our kids know, like, hey, if this happens, like, okay, like, this is what we're gonna do as a family. This is the other families that we're gonna go link

• 1:23:16JP Dinnell?

  up with and, you know, and this is, this is gonna be fun. It's gonna be a little adventure.

• 1:23:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it sure is. It's gonna be fun.

• 1:23:22JP Dinnell?

  Nah, he knows the deal. He's like, that dude, that boy just wants to be a part of something. He's six foot two, hundred and, hundred and eighty-three pounds right now.

• 1:23:30Jocko Willink?

  How old is he?

• 1:23:31JP Dinnell?

  He's seventeen in two weeks.

• 1:23:34Jocko Willink?

  And he's six foot what?

• 1:23:35JP Dinnell?

  Six foot two, hundred and eighty-three pounds. We're in size fifteen shoe. It's a man child. It's not a child.

• 1:23:41Jocko Willink?

  Fifteen shoe?

• 1:23:42JP Dinnell?

  Size fifteen shoe. That's fun to try to find.

• 1:23:44Jocko Willink?

  One, yeah, that's always, he's wearing like the dorkiest shoes anyone can, because he's got like the last.

• 1:23:49JP Dinnell?

  There's good ones now. There's good brands out there now.

• 1:23:52Jocko Willink?

  You know, James Nielsen?

• 1:23:53JP Dinnell?

  Of course.

• 1:23:53Jocko Willink?

  James Nielsen, he's one of our black belts, um, old school black belt, but he had like real big feet. Like every time you show up, you'd be like, bro, what's up? Somebody have kicks over?

• 1:24:04JP Dinnell?

  No, there's like, there's good brands now. Like, oh, like Brooks running and I think there's, and New Balance also, I can, goes up to fifteen. So he's good. I mean, they still look funny because they're such big shoes.

• 1:24:15Jocko Willink?

  So the, the thing is, is he gonna grow more? What are they saying?

• 1:24:18JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, he, it'll be six, four to six, five.

• 1:24:20Jocko Willink?

  Dude, yeah. Cause one of my old teammates, um, who, who's my roommate for a long time, but he was, he was five eleven when he went to college. And he, he got, he got, uh, like D two scholarship offers for basketball. And he didn't take them because he was like, oh, I'm just gonna go get my education, whatever. I'm obviously not gonna be able to play pro. He grew five inches in college, graduated six, four, came in the ders.

• 1:24:44JP Dinnell?

  Dang, that's awesome.

• 1:24:45Jocko Willink?

  That guy could, that guy could do any athletic pursuit like a, like a beast.

• 1:24:51Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. That's gonna be interesting. Six, five.

• 1:24:54JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:54Jocko Willink?

  Dude, size fifteens is no joke.

• 1:24:56JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, his hands are huge too. I mean, he's, he's lifting at school because it's part of the wrestling program. I mean, we have a full, you've seen our setup at the house. It's awesome. He's starting to get a little more intrigued in it at the house as well. And, you know, a man will be like, hey, man, you know, how many times, you know, you've heard Jaco talk about, man, if I had this setup when I was a kid, you know, and so he's now starting to, dude, man, if he starts like lifting.

• 1:25:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:19JP Dinnell?

  It's.

• 1:25:20Jocko Willink?

  Because he's on testosterone. Because he's a seventeen year old kid. Like, the people go on testosterone so that they can have the testosterone that your seventeen year old son has.

• 1:25:31JP Dinnell?

  I'm on testosterone for the rest of my life. Because my body doesn't produce it so that I can be able to maintain that gap as long as I can. I know it's gonna happen with him. It's fine, whatever.

• 1:25:42Jocko Willink?

  He's gonna be jacked.

• 1:25:43JP Dinnell?

  I got the old man strength though.

• 1:25:45Jocko Willink?

  I will say, you know, never read the comments. You heard this?

• 1:25:48JP Dinnell?

  Yes, I have.

• 1:25:49Jocko Willink?

  I, I read comments.

• 1:25:50JP Dinnell?

  I, I occasionally.

• 1:25:51Jocko Willink?

  But, but I had to read the comments about, there was a, uh, Jaco, if you will, put up a video of my gym, my home gym. And so people were commenting and one of the comments, you know, people are like, oh, my God, I can't believe that's a home gym. Cause my gym is pretty legit.

• 1:26:03JP Dinnell?

  It's amazing.

• 1:26:04Jocko Willink?

  But someone wrote, your home gym is better than my gym gym.

• 1:26:10JP Dinnell?

  That's amazing.

• 1:26:11Jocko Willink?

  So I like that comment. Pretty good. Good one. Uh, number twenty seven, anything can get you killed, including nothing.

• 1:26:19Jocko Willink?

  Again, I talked to the military unit today and I was talking about how you be, be worried about things that you can control. And you said this earlier today, like, don't worry about things you can't control. Concern yourself with things that you can't control. Cause anything gets you killed, including nothing. So, get over that, the, the element of chance that happens in life, that happens in business. You know what? You could have a fire in your factory tomorrow. And if you focus all of your effort worrying about something that could low possibility happen, but it could happen, you're wasting your time and effort. So don't let that happen. Number twenty eight, if you take more than your fair share of objectives, you will get more than your fair share of objectives to take.

• 1:27:04Jocko Willink?

  This is known. The harder you work and the better you perform, the more responsibility you're going to get, the more, in my mind, opportunity you're going to get. You know, I'm gonna do a squared away thing. When I was a young guy, there's another thing I was talking about today with this military unit. I was the youngest and most junior guy in my first two SEAL platoons. What did I do? Everything that I could take charge of, I took charge of. You know, I was a radioman, so that meant I was taking charge of all those radios. If there was a communication plan to come up, I was gonna make, I was gonna do, take charge of as much as you can, and you're gonna get more to take charge of, which is good. So, you know, this is a Murphy's Law thing, and this is said sort of, you know, tongue in cheek,

• 1:27:49Jocko Willink?

  like, oh, if you work hard, you're gonna get more work. They're looking at it negative, I look at it positive. Obviously.

• 1:27:56JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I, uh, I used to get so mad. I never expressed it on the outside, never let a client know. But at the beginning, working with the actual front, I would always ask, like, hey, what's the worst thing that can happen if you're the only person that takes ownership? Cause I just want people to think like, okay, like, what's the worst thing that's gonna happen? And there's always be like this one person, like, you're gonna get more work. And I'm like, yeah, that's a good thing. Because guess what? You get to solve the problems, you have control over the thing that you're complaining about that nobody else is fixing, like, that's a good thing. And guys are, and gals would push back, but yeah, but you're, you have more work on your plate. And on the inside, I would want to like, I was like,

• 1:28:37JP Dinnell?

  I'd get combative because I hate that mindset of just like, just, I'm gonna do the bare minimum, I'll be super lazy. And so I would realize like, oh, I'm not framing this question the right way, or I'm not given enough, like, enough information so that they can see like, hey, this is actually a good thing. But, you know, as we have the conversation, you pull the thread, all those people eventually would be like, all right, yeah, you're right. Like, there's nothing bad that's gonna come from me taking ownership. And my, hey, if, if you don't do the work, does the work eventually need to be get, does it need to be done? And there, everyone always like, well, yeah, I'm like, so is there the possibility that the work could be put on your plate because it needs to be get done? Yeah. Okay. And since

• 1:29:20JP Dinnell?

  you've waited so long to do the work, is it in a better situation than if you would've just taken ownership, been default aggressive, and started solving that problem sooner? And they're like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. I mean,

• 1:29:33Jocko Willink?

  I want to do work on my terms.

• 1:29:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:29:35Jocko Willink?

  Not on anybody else's terms. So I'm not going to wait for someone to tell me what to do. I'm going to make it happen. And by the way, when I take ownership of this project that no one wanted to do, and I get it done, and then I get tasked another project and I go, okay, hey, boss, I'll definitely get this thing done. By the way, I need two people here to support me. I need those two people from another team that isn't doing anything. I need them with me. Okay, cool. Yep, you got them. Why? Because you're performing. All of a sudden, I've got a team and we're doing work together. My life is actually getting easier. I'm having more influence over my world, more influence over accomplishing the mission. Why? Because I took ownership. So yeah, there you go.

• 1:30:12Jocko Willink?

  Number 29, if everything seems to be going well, you have overlooked something. I suppose I should have put that one up with a complacency department. But again, really smart to not get swept up by the mob. The mob's all high fiving each other, all congratulating each other on what a great job you did and what a great job the team did. You should be the one as a leader, and by the way, you could be anywhere in the chain of command, looking around going, okay, what did we miss? How can we improve our position right now? Where can we move? How can we get better?

• 1:30:44Jocko Willink?

  The easy way is always mind. We already covered that.

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  Wait, the easy way is always mind? Is that kind of the same as?

• 1:30:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:51Speaker 02

  If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is kind of a thing?

• 1:30:54Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Yes, for sure. Very similar. That's why I, there were some repeats in here as I pulled from different lists. I can see I put that one in twice pretty much. And this is another similar one. Try to look unimportant. They may be low on ammo. And again, this is, this is one of those like tongue in cheek ones. You know, the military is filled with people and with a whole genre of humor of avoiding work. You know, skating as much as you can. As a matter of fact, there's a, I found some acronym for skate. And it's like, you know, S K A T E. And it had all these things, you know, sneak away when you can. And Kay was like,

• 1:31:38Jocko Willink?

  Keep your name off of volunteer lists. It had like a whole thing. One of them was like, don't take responsibility. A uh anyways, there's a whole genre of Avoid responsibility. Yeah, yeah, avoid. I think that actually was it like it's like avoid responsibility. It's funny. I was gonna cover it on on the academy because each one of them is like the counter to the principles that we teach. That's awesome. So but there's a whole genre of humor in the military and it probably, you know, was existed in World War Two. It probably found its home during Vietnam where you had a bunch of draftees that were like, didn't want to be there. So there's a whole genre of military in there of military humor. That's avoid work, skate as much as you can. And this is one of those try to look important, try to look unimportant. They may be low

• 1:32:23Jocko Willink?

  on ammo. This is an important one. Professionals are predictable. It's the amateurs that are dangerous. We know this from fighting, right? Jiu Jitsu white belts. Jiu Jitsu white belts. You they're never going to beat you. They could definitely hurt you by doing something stupid. And after they hurt you with your hurt ankle or knee, you submit them, put them to sleep, and then you gotta go get freaking, you know, ice pack because this idiot threw an elbow into your eye socket because they were spasming out and doing something that was totally unpredictable. So, yes, professionals are predictable. It's amateurs that are dangerous. This includes like people that you're working

• 1:33:04Jocko Willink?

  with, people that don't understand the if you bring in people from other industries, which I totally support, they might do things that you don't predict. So pay attention to that. If you have competitors that are new in the industry and you're calling their shots, maneuvering to to to keep them in check, they might do things you didn't expect. Because professionals are predictable, predictable, but amateurs can be dangerous. Number thirty four, a sucking chest wound is nature's way of telling you to slow down.

• 1:33:39Jocko Willink?

  Now, what I like about that one is

• 1:33:43JP Dinnell?

  The humor?

• 1:33:44Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah.

• 1:33:45JP Dinnell?

  The dark humor.

• 1:33:45Jocko Willink?

  Obviously, the dark humor. But this is also JP getting a call, getting a mission tasking the day after his 40th birthday, where he's been on the road for a week and looking at his wife and saying, yup, hey, that weekend we had planned, we're gonna cancel it because I gotta go do a gig. The look on her face is the sucking chest wound. Okay, maybe she didn't give you that look. Go ahead.

• 1:34:11JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, in her defense, there was no look, but I knew.

• 1:34:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:16JP Dinnell?

  I just knew.

• 1:34:18Jocko Willink?

  So you felt, you felt the sucking chest wound yourself?

• 1:34:20JP Dinnell?

  I felt it.

• 1:34:21Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:34:21JP Dinnell?

  She was detached. She was normal face. I just want to be this very, very clear. My wife is been amazing since day one. Like, cool, you're gonna miss our anniversary again?

• 1:34:31Jocko Willink?

  Whatever.

• 1:34:31JP Dinnell?

  Awesome. Oh, you're missing me having surgery? Uh, can you just fly my, my mom in to help take care of me while you're gone for two weeks doing FTA? Like, she's never once complained about anything. And all those things I said are factual things.

• 1:34:43Jocko Willink?

  I know.

• 1:34:44JP Dinnell?

  I, I felt it. She was normal face because she was like, oh, I think he'll heal.

• 1:34:49Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:34:50JP Dinnell?

  So I just want to be on my wife's defense.

• 1:34:52Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 1:34:53JP Dinnell?

  But yes, you're right. That is 100%. It was like, hey, you know what? You need to slow down right now.

• 1:34:59Jocko Willink?

  You need to slow down. So pay attention to that, the sucking chest wound. When you're, when you're working yourself to a point where you hear your freaking lungs going

• 1:35:11Jocko Willink?

  you see frothy blood coming out of your wound? That means you need to take a little breather.

• 1:35:17JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:19Jocko Willink?

  So, take a step back, take a little bit of downtime, slow down. Uh, next one.

• 1:35:31Jocko Willink?

  Tracers work both ways. And that's a good one because it's it's very similar to that. When we when we start, what was that first one that we went over? You know, where it was like, you're gonna get.

• 1:35:44JP Dinnell?

  If they're in range.

• 1:35:45Jocko Willink?

  If they're in range, you're in range. This is a similar one. Tracers work both ways. Also, this means when you, to me, this is talking about, and I talk about this in leadership strategy and tactics. Giving away your position.

• 1:35:56JP Dinnell?

  Here we come by fire, giving away your position.

• 1:35:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:59JP Dinnell?

  Silhouetting yourself in a window.

• 1:36:01Jocko Willink?

  Yep. When you decide during the meeting to stand up and say, this is what I think. All of a sudden, everyone knows where you stand. And now they're formulating arguments against you. And by the way, they don't think you're on, you know, JP, if JP's saying we should go north and I'm saying we should go south and and instead of me listening to JP and saying, hey, well, why do you think we should go from the north? And he says, well, we got this, this and this. Instead of if you say, I think we should go from the north and I I say, well, I actually think we should go from the south. All of a sudden, we're arguing with each other. All of a sudden, you're not listening to me. So what am I gonna do? I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna use my tracers where you can see exactly where I am. And I'm not trying to be manipulative. What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to keep my mind open and I'm trying to keep your mind open. That's what I'm trying to do.

• 1:36:42Jocko Willink?

  The minute I let loose with some tracers and you can see exactly where I am. All of a sudden, you're gonna aim your tracers right back. I mean, we're in a gunfight now. But if I don't shoot. And I just say, hey, JP, why do you think it would be better to attack from that position? Your mind is not shut down. My mind is not shut down. We can have a conversation. We can actually come to the best solution.

• 1:37:09Jocko Willink?

  So try not to give away your position, people.

• 1:37:14Jocko Willink?

  Number 40. If at first you don't succeed. Call in an airstrike.

• 1:37:21Jocko Willink?

  And here's what I like about this one. Again, these are great because they have these little tongue in cheek kind of humorous and there's some element of truth in it. But if you're trying to do something and it is not worth working, try a different approach. This is something that this is a scenario that you and I ran so many times. We were running urban training. So we got our SEAL platoons out running around in an urban environment. And we would set up a building that was going to be impossible for the SEALs to be able to take down this building. It was gonna be impossible. SEALs can do anything. No, they can't. No, you put five barricaded shooters in a building

• 1:38:01Jocko Willink?

  with booby traps, they're not going to be able to take it down. Everyone, if the more they stay there, the more people are gonna die. And eventually if they keep stay there and continue to try and take the building, everyone will be dead.

• 1:38:12Jocko Willink?

  And we would see whole platoons get wiped out by two or three barricaded shooters. Why? Because if at first you don't succeed and you run into some real resistance, maybe you should try something else like backing out of the building and calling it an airstrike. So check your perspective. If you're trying something and it's not working, what are some other options?

• 1:38:35JP Dinnell?

  You know, you weren't at this FTX, Dave and I were doing it with one of our clients. And we ran a scenario similar to this, you know, we call it the murder bridge. Very similar to a barricaded shooter scenario. And we get done with it and we we debrief. We stop the run out in the field, we debrief it right there so they can see it. Like we try to do that as much as we can on these field training exercises and like, hey, if we can stop while we're out there to talk through so you can see the environment, you can feel it, they really tie it in. And this point.

• 1:39:05Jocko Willink?

  When you mandate that they stop and the are forced to take their head off of their gun and look around and detach and see what happened, it's a very good learning.

• 1:39:15JP Dinnell?

  It is so powerful. It is so powerful. Cause we stopped, I mean, they were, they were in it there. I mean, they're shooting their laser taggers, they're just in it, they're in it, they're in it. We stop it, they pull back and we hadn't even started the debrief. And this one guy goes. Son of a bitch. He goes, that's a channelized area. I'm like, yeah. I was like, are you in the military? He goes, no, but I know enough to know that's a bad, that's a bad situation. So we're kind of laughing. We're going through some like different stuff. And then like, I'm like sitting there like listening to all the people's going, oh, I can hear that. I can see that. Like they're, they're literally seeing everything. And we're not even giving them anything. And then we explained to him like the situation, like, hey, this is what we have here.

• 1:40:00JP Dinnell?

  This is what's going on. And this one girl goes, I have an example from, from work that this is exactly what we're doing. And Dave and I were like, okay, what's up? And she's like, we were coding something. We were working on this code problem. We couldn't figure it out and we kept working on it. And she goes, you know, we just kept working on it. We kept throwing more people, more resources. We kept working on it.

• 1:40:23JP Dinnell?

  They were working on this one coding problem for seven months straight. Until somebody finally came in and said, hey, we don't need to be working on that anymore. It was just absolutely bizarre. We're sitting there like, dang, she goes, this is exactly what she's like, we're in, we're in murder bridges every single day.

• 1:40:47Jocko Willink?

  Horrible.

• 1:40:48JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:48Jocko Willink?

  So get a different perspective. Don't code. Don't try and fix one small problem coding for seven months. I might push that up the chain of command and say you've hit a, a roadblock that you can't get around. What are some other options here?

• 1:41:04Jocko Willink?

  Number 41. Make it tough enough for the enemy to get out, to get in and you won't be able to get out. I'll say it again. Make it tough enough for the enemy to get in and you won't be able to get out. The reason this is in this little grouping is because when you dig in, And you make your, you, you get defensive in your position, you're not going to be able to move anymore. The minute I say, it's JP, you don't know why, you don't understand, my plan's better than yours. Your, your plan's stupid. The minute I say that, I just put myself in a position where I can't change my mind. Well, I can, if I can go from that extreme ego issue to being like, hold on JP, you know what? This is my ego talking right now. I actually am an idiot. Explain your plan to me. I think it's better.

• 1:41:47Jocko Willink?

  But most people don't get to do that. Most people, they dig in to a point where they can't move anymore. Don't paint yourself into a corner and don't paint your team into a corner. Right? Don't put so many parameters on them that they can't make adjustments. Doesn't make sense. So be careful at.

• 1:42:11Jocko Willink?

  If you are short of, of everything but the enemy, you are in a combat zone.

• 1:42:18Jocko Willink?

  Again, a little dark humor with that one.

• 1:42:22Jocko Willink?

  Here's one. Never forget that your weapon is made by the lowest bidder. And again, that of course is like classic tongue in cheek situation.

• 1:42:34Jocko Willink?

  But here's the thing. No matter what you're doing, you're not, you're gonna, your, your equipment, your resources are going to be wanting. No matter where you are, you're gonna want better resources. You're gonna want more people. You're gonna want more money. You're gonna want better gadgets. You're gonna want better advertising, um, supplies. You're gonna want better marketing materials. No matter what you're doing. You're gonna, you're gonna have to work with what you got. Even when it's made by the lowest bidder. And the number of times that JP Dinnell turned to me and said, hey, Jaco, I'm doing the best I can, but this weapon system is made by the lowest bidder is zero, right?

• 1:43:18Jocko Willink?

  You don't blame your weapon and this is set up to be an excuse. And what I'm telling you is that's, that's everyone. That's every company. It doesn't matter. You go to any company in the world and there's like someone in one department. Who's going, hey, I need more budget here. I need to hire more people. I need more resources for this. Every company, Apple, Google, Facebook, doesn't matter. Tesla, SpaceX, there's someone in a department going, I need more resources.

• 1:43:49Jocko Willink?

  So your weapon is made by the lowest bidder. We get it. And guess what JP did with that weapon? Dialed that thing in and made it work. A lot.

• 1:44:02JP Dinnell?

  Wish it would have been more. Yeah, that's like the, we've talked about this multiple times. I mean, you can make excuses or you can make things happen. You cannot do both. So, I mean, and you look at that also, like again, like the whole tongue in cheek thing. But even the lowest bidders, they're still damn good. Like the stuff that we had access. Now, some of the stuff I get it, but the principle of what you're saying is like, hey, you work with what you have. Stop making excuses. Go out there and like, if you go out there and actually work and take action, then you're actually going to get some stuff taken care of.

• 1:44:35Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:44:36JP Dinnell?

  That's it. I hate the victim mentality. Cause I played that. I played that victim mentality. I mean, we've talked about on the other podcast when I got out and I sabotaged everything in my life and I, I just, because I did it and I saw what happened and I'm so thankful from the grace of God that I was able to actually read extreme ownership, take ownership of my life, get my marriage back, get my family back. Like it could have been a completely different picture. I don't think I'd be sitting here or I would be one of those numbers in your phone where you wouldn't be able to call if I wouldn't have taken control of my life again. And I hate the victim mentality because it ruins everything. And that's from the devil, man. He wants to destroy everything in our lives.

• 1:45:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. If we had, if we had the opportunity to have like the alternate universe.

• 1:45:31Jocko Willink?

  You, and we got to like snap our fingers and see, you know, you snapped yourself out and got control and took ownership of your life, like a hundred percent.

• 1:45:44Jocko Willink?

  It's really sad. I mean, if you play out the, hey, I'm gonna keep blaming other people. I'm not gonna take ownership. I'm gonna continue to be a victim of what's going on. That's a, that's a, and what sucks is you and I know people like this.

• 1:45:57JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:57Jocko Willink?

  I mean, it's terrible. And that's what's, that's a problem that's plaguing. Well, it's plaguing the veteran community in many ways.

• 1:46:05JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:05Jocko Willink?

  You know, cuz, cuz people just, oh, you know, it's, it's this, it's that, instead of saying, okay, it's me. Here's what I need to do to fix it.

• 1:46:15Jocko Willink?

  So that alternate universe, we should actually, we should actually do a drill of that. Like, like at some point, we should sit down and be like, all right, let's see where you are at. And let's paint the picture of where, where you end up.

• 1:46:30JP Dinnell?

  Well, the scary thing is like, how many years down the road are we planning my funeral? Because that's what it would have been.

• 1:46:35Jocko Willink?

  Yep. No, I know. We take it to the, we take it to the end.

• 1:46:38JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:38Jocko Willink?

  We take it to the end. We take it to the, uh, you know, drunk driving vehicle wrapped around a car. Or the, you know, drink yourself to death, or whatever, whatever it's gonna be.

• 1:46:47JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:47Jocko Willink?

  But, you know, obviously for me, I think alcohol is a huge one. That's why I immediately went to like alcohol related deaths.

• 1:46:53JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:53Jocko Willink?

  But we know that it's a, that, once you go on that downward spiral, that, that road is not long.

• 1:47:00JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I, I mean, and I know a handful of people, and we know that have, you know, taken ownership and gotten themselves into rehab, man, and people that go to rehab for drinking. I have so much respect for them because, dude, alcohol is as bad of a drug as all the other ones out there. I mean, if not worse than some of them.

• 1:47:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, actually alcohol is worse than a lot of them. Alcohol is one of the few drugs, I think it's only one other drug that you can't quit cold turkey without medical supervision. So when you, when someone's a true alcoholic, if they stop drinking cold turkey, they can die.

• 1:47:37JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, yeah, alcohol is very, very destructive. Um, and that's one component of, it's probably the most exacerbating component. Like, you know, Echo, one of the earliest podcasts we did, you said, hey, Working out and exercise is something that will truly help every single aspect of your life. It's one of the most beneficial things you can do as a human. It'll help your mindset, it'll help your mind actually, it'll help your health and fitness, it'll help your outlook, it'll help your energy levels. It literally helps, and by the way, when you have higher energy levels, you do better at work. You're cooler to be around. Oh, you have a little pent up aggression? Oh, but you work out now and you, when your wife does something that frustrates you, you're like,

• 1:48:20Jocko Willink?

  oh, I already worked out, I'm too tired to cause an argument, so I'm just gonna, like, it literally helps everything. You look at alcohol, it's like the opposite. It's like just exacerbating problems, making things worse. You're not sleeping as well, your mind's not functioning as well, you're irritated because you don't feel right. This is just bad.

• 1:48:39Jocko Willink?

  So there you go.

• 1:48:40JP Dinnell?

  But it's legal, so it can't be that bad for you. I, I'm sorry, I'm just, this shit makes me mad. And I'm not acting like I'm this saint that doesn't drink.

• 1:48:50JP Dinnell?

  I don't drink as much as I used to, and I actually haven't drank for a while. I just stopped again, I was like, no, not going to, you know, because I saw like, what it could open up again, and I'm like, no, not gonna happen, you know? And, uh, you know, I had some people close to me that I love that decided like, hey, you know what? I'm done, you know, like I need to go to rehab. And like, that was impressive, like, to completely take ownership and recognize, hey, you know what? Like, if I keep doing this, like, everything's gonna fall apart. And I can't make, you can't make these decisions if you're not of a sober mind. You know, and that's biblical, you know, I know, I mean, and that's not, not where we're going.

• 1:49:33JP Dinnell?

  But like how, you know, you, you have to have that, you know, just that clarification, that clarity. And if you're drinking, you're not gonna have that, you're not gonna have it. And you know, and it's just, it's cool when you see people that actually decide, hey, you know, I'm not gonna drink anymore. Like, how much better the lives get? Like, it's, that alone should like, be enough for people to be like, you know, I don't wanna drink anymore. You know, and I, you know, I, I get, you know, so for me, the slippery slope was like, oh, you know, I'll have some wine with my wife once in a while. And that's the only drinking I was doing. And then it became, oh, you know, we'll do this and this. And then, you know, I was at a common, a mutual friends of ours, like was retiring and man, you were there and I was just, I got hammered. Because I was with a bunch of team guys.

• 1:50:19JP Dinnell?

  No, I, you know what I mean? I did like, it actually was something I didn't want to talk about because it's embarrassing, but we're there. So I opened up the door, oh, wow, JP's showing way too much, maybe. But, um, man, I got hammered that night and you were there. And I was literally, and then it turned into like a bunch of drunk team guys and we started fighting each other.

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:41JP Dinnell?

  And it wasn't like of any ill will, but we were literally fighting in a bar at a nice hotel. Making a lot of people nervous around us because now it's drunk team guys literally fighting each other. And you, you didn't care because if you would have, you would have said something.

• 1:50:58Jocko Willink?

  Well, I was doing a little, I was doing a little big John McCarthy. I was doing a little refereeing, making sure things, you know, like making sure things were gonna make sure. Look at the, look at the bouncers or whatever, like, are we good? Are we okay? You okay with this? Well, I got it, you know, but just making sure you're okay. Like, give me another, get, this round's almost over. Let him finish this round.

• 1:51:16JP Dinnell?

  And it was like, after that, I was like, man. And I think it was the fact that you didn't say anything to me that bothered me the most.

• 1:51:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 1:51:26JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:51:26Jocko Willink?

  Why is that?

• 1:51:27JP Dinnell?

  Because I knew I did, I shouldn't have been that drunk. Why, why, why should I be so hammered? In front of you, my wife, friends, like, is there ever an actual need for me to be that hammered?

• 1:51:45Jocko Willink?

  If there is, it's your friend's retirement. I'll give you that. I'm, you know, I support your, I support your statements.

• 1:51:50JP Dinnell?

  Okay. Yes.

• 1:51:52Jocko Willink?

  Probably, and let me, let me, let me, let me say this, probably the reason I didn't even think to say anything is like, hey, man. One of our friends just did whatever it was, 24 years or whatever in the teams, they're retiring, you flew out. This is one of our brothers from tasking a bruiser.

• 1:52:07JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:07Jocko Willink?

  A like, this is a monumentous, a monumental moment in time. And I was like, dude, by all means, I didn't even think twice about it. So.

• 1:52:17JP Dinnell?

  Yes, and I agree with you. The opposite spectrum of that is you are also there and you're not drinking. You didn't need to be getting drunk. You weren't getting hammered and you had as much fun. I might have had a little more fun. I don't know.

• 1:52:33Jocko Willink?

  You might have woken up with more of a bruise on your elbow or whatever it was.

• 1:52:36JP Dinnell?

  There's a lot of bruises.

• 1:52:38JP Dinnell?

  On all of us. The next day, the group text between us and they're like the three guys.

• 1:52:42Jocko Willink?

  Someone smacked their head like hard.

• 1:52:44JP Dinnell?

  No, he did.

• 1:52:45Jocko Willink?

  Like the kind of thing that.

• 1:52:46JP Dinnell?

  You're like, oh.

• 1:52:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was like.

• 1:52:50JP Dinnell?

  What's the closest hospital smack on the head? Yeah. He talked about that the next day. The other dude was like, bro, my whole back's bruised up, you motherfucker. Like it was just, I mean, it was funny. I, I love that stuff. But here's the deal. The drinking wasn't necessary to have that fun. It wasn't necessary. And you know, I just, I, I even know what started us down this rabbit hole of drinking, but you know, for me, it was something like recently where I was just like, you know, I saw enough people in my life that I really cared about, that I loved, that I, I, I look up to. They're like, I don't drink anymore. I don't drink anymore. I don't drink anymore. And I'm like, I don't need to drink anymore. So I haven't. It's been a while. And my birthday is on St. Patrick's Day.

• 1:53:33Jocko Willink?

  Yes. And your name is Jeremiah Dinnell.

• 1:53:36JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, Jeremiah Patrick.

• 1:53:38Jocko Willink?

  Patrick Dinnell. That's right. Yeah.

• 1:53:40JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. And guess who will not be drinking on St. Patrick's Day this year? I won't. There's no, why? Cause you know what? The next morning, you know, it's more important than me drinking a bunch of Jameson and ginger ales or, or first of all, I'm not even getting home until close to midnight. So what am I going to get hammered on the airplane by myself? That's, you got a problem. That's what you're doing. You know? So I'm not going to drink because one, we don't drink on the road. We don't drink when we're traveling on the road. When I get home, it's going to be close to midnight. And you know what's more important than me drinking some Irish whiskey on my birthday? Is waking up early to take my kids on that trip.

• 1:54:13Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:54:13JP Dinnell?

  You know, and that's.

• 1:54:15Jocko Willink?

  And being engaged with your kids instead of being freaking hungover and catching a, you know, when you're in the car or in the plane, like, oh, I'm just going to go to sleep. Instead of being like, hey, let's whatever.

• 1:54:26JP Dinnell?

  Let's play some game.

• 1:54:26Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:54:27JP Dinnell?

  Road trip game. Yeah, whatever.

• 1:54:28Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Cool.

• 1:54:31Jocko Willink?

  The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

• 1:54:41Jocko Willink?

  Really scary thing on the battlefield, really scary thing, you know, definitely. Anyone in Task Unit Bruiser would have rather been lit up by the enemy than lit up by friendly. And just about everyone did get lit up by friendly at some point. Obviously, these stories are in extreme ownership.

• 1:55:02Jocko Willink?

  But what's interesting about this one? And the reason I thought about it from like a business perspective and a personal perspective is the outsiders aren't going to hurt you as bad as the insiders can. The people around you that if they decide they're going to throw shots or they're going to, they're going to do something nefarious to you. They can hurt you worse than the enemy can, than someone that's outside the, you know, someone inside your company can hurt you worse than somebody outside your company. Someone inside your family can hurt you worse than someone outside your family.

• 1:55:42Jocko Willink?

  So friendly fire is more accurate and more devastating than unfriendly fire. And this is why we talk about relationships. Because when you have relationships with people, then you, then your chances of having friendly fire is going to go down. Can it happen? Yes, it can happen. You can have people that you have good relationships with that choose to do things that are going to be, that are going to, that are going to hurt. It can happen. You can, you can actually, there's some people that just, that's what their nature is. That's what their nature is and you do your best and they're still gonna, they're still going to take their shots.

• 1:56:24Jocko Willink?

  And I mean, obviously, once somebody has, you know, done the friendly fire thing and they've, they've tried to harm you from inside the inner circle. You know, they're obviously not going to be in there anymore.

• 1:56:35Jocko Willink?

  And that's the way it goes, but that's why the relationship thing is so important. That's why, you know, making sure you're keeping those lines of communications open is important. To make sure if someone's starting to feel frustrated, you start, they think they're starting to head towards a friendly fire situation, you understand where they're coming from. Because there's nothing worse than your, your friends, your family, your coworkers attacking you. Nothing worse than that.

• 1:57:00JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. I'm in a group text with three other of my buddies. We started the Jesus and Jiu Jitsu thing. Not thing, it's a ministry, but we started that group. And so the three of us are in a group text and we were just talking about a bunch of different random stuff. And I had sent like, I saw some stuff, I screen captured it and I sent it to the guys and I was like, hey, this is not to you, this is for me. And it was like accountability and, um, and my buddy Steven comes back and he's just like, he's like this Cliff Notes version of what he was saying. He's like, man, he goes, think about what, what we do to our kids when we don't show them

• 1:57:42JP Dinnell?

  how to love their mom as the way Christ wants us to. And it was just this like gut punches, like, man, when your kids are in the room or even in the house, they may not fully hear what's going on, but they know what's going on. And if you're not showing your significant other, like, if you're not loving them the way like Christ asks, tells us and commands us to love our spouses in front of your kids, you're showing them what they should do and what they can do and what's okay to happen to them, right? And so me with my twin daughters, like, hey, like, I'm showing them how to be treated. And I'm showing Aiden how to treat a woman. And it's just something that I fail daily and trust me, I'm not trying to be up here like, hey, man, we got this work.

• 1:58:26JP Dinnell?

  I fail at this, but it was just this reminder of like, gosh, man, like, it's so easy for me to have friendly fire with my wife, with Aiden, with the kids, with my friends, because it's just, it's easy and it's so dangerous because you're actually causing a lot more damage to the people that are closer to you. It's just, man, it's a, it's, it's kind of a sickening thing when you really think about that.

• 1:58:52Jocko Willink?

  You know what's crazy is like. You know, you talk about having friendly fire with your wife, like, or treating your wife in a way that you're that you know your kids would would would see in a negative light. Imagine someone else treating your wife like that.

• 1:59:08JP Dinnell?

  Yes, I know.

• 1:59:11Jocko Willink?

  It's like, like, you know, the time that you snap at your son and you're like, dude, and all of a sudden you're like, if I, if another adult.

• 1:59:17JP Dinnell?

  Did it to my kid?

• 1:59:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I would be. So that's a good thing to think about. Now, listen, you do. You have certain privilege as a, as a parent that sometimes you've got to tighten some shit up. But yeah, so that's, that's, that's another way of thinking about it as well.

• 1:59:30JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I, I knew I messed up one time when a man that goes, hey, if someone talked to me the way that you just talked to me.

• 1:59:40Jocko Willink?

  You would beat the shit out of him.

• 1:59:42JP Dinnell?

  And she goes, pre echelon front JP, what would happen? She goes, you'd be in jail for murder. She goes, you would murder? I was like, no question. I'm like, and I'm sitting there and I'm trying not to laugh like you're laughing because I'm like, I'm noticing, I'm like, you're right. And she goes, why? I'm like, I don't, I'm sorry. I had literally nothing to say the other time. I'm sorry. And she goes, you're so good with your words that it can also be a really bad thing as well. And she goes, just, I know this is something we need to work through. And, and again, and she was like, hey,

• 2:00:17JP Dinnell?

  I also know I provoke it in you sometimes. And she goes, and I know what I'm doing. She goes, if you can work on it, I can work on it. Like, can we please work on it? And it was like one of those things, but it was the way she said that. She goes, if someone talked to me like you just did. And this was pre echelon front JP. And I'm like, yeah.

• 2:00:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, that's, that happened to me with my wife when I went, when I went to college. And so I'd been in the SEAL teams my whole adult life. And then I finally go to college and now I'm not around any SEALs. And so what do you do when you're in a platoon? I was in a platoon my whole life. So now all of a sudden, when you're in a platoon, you're just every, every weakness you see, you're going to attack, you're going to make fun of everyone. You know, you're taking digs at everything, anything mistake that someone made, you're going to hammer them. And so, you know, that, since I didn't have that outlet anymore, and I thought that's the, just the way, that was just the way you did things. You know, I'd come home and be like, you know?

• 2:01:12Jocko Willink?

  Hey darling, can you give me two gallons of water to drink as I eat this dry chicken that you made me? So this went on for a little while. I didn't even notice it. And then finally, one day she goes, she goes, hey, I'm not a team guy. And I immediately, I was like, I was like, oh damn. I was like, hey, got it. And I was like, check. And that was it. I realized she's not a team guy. She doesn't, you don't, you don't sit there and you know, throw jabs at your wife. She doesn't think it's funny. She doesn't think it's funny. And you can't let that happen. So there you go.

• 2:01:49Jocko Willink?

  Friendly, this is connected one friendly fire ain't. Nothing friendly about friendly fire. And here's the last one. Important one. Cavalry does not always come to the rescue.

• 2:02:03Jocko Willink?

  Which is very true. You can't be relying on the cavalry to show up and save you. You can't be relying on next quarter. That next quarter, you're going to get the funding that you need at your company. You, you can't rely on your wife adapting her personality. To be able to take jabs better. Verbal jabs better. You can't count on that. Not gonna happen. Would it be nice? Sure, it'd be nice, but you can't count on it.

• 2:02:37Jocko Willink?

  You're the one that has to make adjustments. The cavalry's not coming. You gotta make things happen. You gotta own it. No one is coming. It's all on you. So.

• 2:02:51Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Those are some lessons from Murphy's Law.

• 2:02:57Jocko Willink?

  And you know, I think, I think what these really boil down to is no matter what you're doing, no matter what arena you're in. No matter what you're trying to plan or what you're trying to execute. Make sure you always account for old Captain Murphy and Murphy's laws because they're there. That's where I'm at.

• 2:03:21Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of which, speaking of worst case scenarios, speaking of doing battle, speaking of trying to execute. We gotta be ready. Echo Charles.

• 2:03:32Speaker 02

  I'm gonna rewind a little bit, but.

• 2:03:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, we got questions, comments from Echo Charles, boha.

• 2:03:37Speaker 02

  Uh, the friendly fire one, more accurate is the most accurate. That one's actually like a a big thing, obviously.

• 2:03:45Jocko Willink?

  It's a big thing.

• 2:03:47Speaker 02

  I'm gonna introduce you to my world yet again. So you've watched, you've watched Commando?

• 2:03:51Jocko Willink?

  Yes, with Arnold.

• 2:03:52Speaker 02

  I have not. So that's it, that's.

• 2:03:55Jocko Willink?

  I know it's crazy. That movie seems so dumb to me that I've never watched it.

• 2:03:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:59JP Dinnell?

  That's why it's so good.

• 2:04:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, one of the many reasons. Yeah, exactly right.

• 2:04:02Jocko Willink?

  I'm not one of those people.

• 2:04:04Speaker 02

  Well, actually you kind of are because here, let me tell you this. So I watched Commando and I think.

• 2:04:11Jocko Willink?

  I'm not one of those people that finds real dumb things real funny or whatever, or real interesting.

• 2:04:16JP Dinnell?

  Now, when we look at the quality of movies, but back when it came out, it was awesome.

• 2:04:21Speaker 02

  With all due respect to both of you.

• 2:04:22Jocko Willink?

  What year did it come out?

• 2:04:24Speaker 02

  Eighty-four.

• 2:04:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh, damn.

• 2:04:25Speaker 02

  Actually, that's my guess.

• 2:04:27JP Dinnell?

  I'm no, I was born in eighty-three.

• 2:04:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:31Jocko Willink?

  I wonder if it came out, I wonder if it came out while I was already in the, in the Navy. It might have.

• 2:04:37Speaker 02

  Well, you figure Rambo was eighty-five in part two, so Commando is about the same thing.

• 2:04:41JP Dinnell?

  This was in the nineties, man.

• 2:04:42Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. Commando was not nineties, I'm lying. I think it was eighty, like. Either, either way, here's why you're wrong. I watched it with my son twice, by the way, and both times he was like, oh, that's Jaco. So you are that guy, by the way. That's, that's A.

• 2:04:59Speaker 02

  B, it's, I think, uh, these things are like in a sensationalized ideal, same thing as Rambo, right? Where it's like, oh yeah, like this guy's unbeatable, all that stuff. Okay, so we've come to accept that. That's why we like it. I think even if you watched it, if you could suspend some of the, what do you call it? Disbelief and accuracies, all this stuff.

• 2:05:16Jocko Willink?

  Let me ask you this question. Again, I was just diving into some. Predator.

• 2:05:20Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:05:21Jocko Willink?

  Is a known movie to me and it's a good movie, right?

• 2:05:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:25Jocko Willink?

  Are those on the same level?

• 2:05:26Speaker 02

  No, no, no, they're different kind of movie.

• 2:05:28Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:05:28JP Dinnell?

  Different type.

• 2:05:29Jocko Willink?

  So I'm just making sure that I wasn't like Predator is kind of seen as like, okay, this is kind of a classic. Sort of, you know, that's a Rambo type movie like Predator, Rambo, those are, those are a level of acceptable, cool movie. I'm agreeing with you. Predator to me is like, like, okay, Red Dawn is over here with Predator, like, these are all time kind of classics.

• 2:05:52Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah.

• 2:05:53Jocko Willink?

  Not, it ain't no Apocalypse Now, it's not Full Metal Jacket, those are the next level, right?

• 2:05:59Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:05:59Jocko Willink?

  Those are like tier one, right? Then you got like the tier two is maybe these are even like tier three, but these movies that you're talking about over here, Commando.

• 2:06:08Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:06:10Jocko Willink?

  That's not one of my movies.

• 2:06:11JP Dinnell?

  I need to watch it again. Maybe it's just because I, dude, with my dad allowed my brother Cory and I to watch Commando with them. We used to play Navy SEALs and now like Army Commandos and Army, like we used to play all these things. So maybe that's like the big thing that I remember. I mean, I would think you did Commando. I mean, he did something that you think that you can actually do is if an airplane is going down, you can like guide yourself to a certain area. I mean, bro, on takeout, on like takeoff, like he finds his way.

• 2:06:38Jocko Willink?

  Kind of make that happen.

• 2:06:39JP Dinnell?

  Makes his way down to the bottom of the airplane and as the landing gear is coming up, he's there and he jumps off into water and makes it happen. Starts his stopwatch and knows that he has a certain number of times.

• 2:06:48Jocko Willink?

  Viable realism in movies.

• 2:06:49JP Dinnell?

  Absolutely. Jumping out of an airplane into a water field, landing while doing your stopwatch, knowing that the time you have a countdown before they find the guy that you killed on the airplane. I mean, it's a good plot.

• 2:07:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, very.

• 2:07:00Jocko Willink?

  All right.

• 2:07:01JP Dinnell?

  So we ruined some of it just now, but.

• 2:07:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, spoiler, a little bit.

• 2:07:04Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:07:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:05Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 2:07:05Speaker 02

  No worries.

• 2:07:06Jocko Willink?

  You're watching Commando with your boy.

• 2:07:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, from many times.

• 2:07:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay, many times.

• 2:07:10Speaker 02

  But I'm saying the friendly fire is the most, uh, what do you call it? Accurate? Yeah, because that's really what that movie was about.

• 2:07:16Jocko Willink?

  There's friendly fire in there?

• 2:07:17Speaker 02

  So Bennett, right? Bennett, the, the main bad guy.

• 2:07:20Jocko Willink?

  Is that an Arnold Schwarzenegger?

• 2:07:21Speaker 02

  No, that's John Matrix.

• 2:07:23Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:07:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you see this correlation, right?

• 2:07:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we had that John Boy Matrix.

• 2:07:28Speaker 02

  So I think his middle name started with a G too, by the way. I'll just sign note, but either way Bennett, the main bad guy was a former team member of John Matrix.

• 2:07:36Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 2:07:37Speaker 02

  See what I'm saying? And at one point he said, when he kind of thought he had the, had the advantage, he was like, you're training my tricks. See what I'm saying? You're saying it's a thing, it's an, what do you call it a phenomenon?

• 2:07:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:51Speaker 02

  See what I'm saying?

• 2:07:52Jocko Willink?

  So the way, the way your son thought that I was commando, John Matrix?

• 2:07:57Speaker 02

  John Matrix, yeah.

• 2:07:58Jocko Willink?

  I gotta tell a funny story about his son, so uh, his son, you guys were over at my house? And my wife was there and my wife has a broom at her house that looks like a witch's broom. But it's what the one that she actually uses to like sweep up? And this is, this is maybe like a year and a half ago, so your son was a little bit younger. But I looked at him just deadpan and I was like, she's a witch. And he, he, I like, I saw immediately, like his eyes got a little bit big, first of all, cause he doesn't know me. So when I'm just being serious, I'm like, she's a witch, this is like her, her broom. He won, tell me, did he 100% believe?

• 2:08:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:08:32Jocko Willink?

  He 100% believed that she was a witch.

• 2:08:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:34Jocko Willink?

  And she was like, no, she's like, oh, I'm not a witch. And I was like, they always say that, they never tell you. And he 100% believed that she was a witch and that, well, it was a witch's broom.

• 2:08:43Speaker 02

  So.

• 2:08:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's. Talk her down a little bit.

• 2:08:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, that was the kind of like.

• 2:08:48Jocko Willink?

  My wife has gotten better about taking jokes as you know, we've been married for longer.

• 2:08:52Speaker 02

  But it was funny cause like, I saw what you were doing and that's how this motherfucker is. So the more that his wife would say like, no, I'm not, he would just use that to prove his point more. You know how like he'll do that to you?

• 2:09:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:05Speaker 02

  So even, which, which actually brings me to my second point where you know how you were like, uh, about drinking and, and getting hammered or whatever? And you're like, oh, he didn't say anything that that kind of bothered me more.

• 2:09:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:15Speaker 02

  Here because John, I don't know if he did it at that time, but he'll do that shit on purpose. He wants to like haunt you, that's why, he's like haunting you.

• 2:09:22Jocko Willink?

  So he said he did do it on purpose, he says he didn't really care. But me knowing that I shouldn't have done it, it was what bothered me. And there's just times like, I've told this to Jaco Alef before, I'm like, hey, I would, I just want, sometimes I just need you guys to be really direct with me. Like, I'm good with that, I like that.

• 2:09:40Speaker 02

  But I don't even say that, cause he knows that.

• 2:09:42Jocko Willink?

  I know that he knows that and that's why I'm saying that, I'm good with that. I already know what he could use against me and I'm fine with that.

• 2:09:48Speaker 02

  Haunting man, you gotta watch out. But yeah, so these are, these are notes, you know, in the spirit of me understanding all these things, you know, things you gotta look out for, obviously.

• 2:09:57Jocko Willink?

  Bro, I've wanted to do Murphy's Law for so, the Murphy's Law's a combat, I've been wanting to do these for so long. I was stoked when you told me. Yeah, I was like, oh God, now I can finally do it. You know, I was like, man, me and JP are always talking about the heaviest. I went, I was like going through our podcasts and I was like, dude, we've done like the heaviest just topics. So I was like, man, we get to get in there and like, talk about some stuff that's a little bit more educational.

• 2:10:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:25Jocko Willink?

  Than diving into the darkness.

• 2:10:26Speaker 02

  So does this mean I gotta change my muster talk?

• 2:10:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you can, yeah, you can talk about whatever you want at the muster round.

• 2:10:32Speaker 02

  I can talk about whatever I want you guys to be, I'm just kidding. I'll change it up and then right before you'd be like, hey, actually I think you need to.

• 2:10:38Jocko Willink?

  Actually just do this other.

• 2:10:39Speaker 02

  Actually gonna do this. Okay, cool. Right to that.

• 2:10:43Jocko Willink?

  Uh, what, did you have more spirit of knowledge that you wanted?

• 2:10:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:46Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:10:47Speaker 02

  So drinking is kinda like bragging. Remember we were talking about bragging, right? The other day?

• 2:10:51Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:10:51Speaker 02

  It's like, hey, we're not drinking. How about that?

• 2:10:53Jocko Willink?

  Well, just to, just to clue JP in, we were on a podcast the other day and we were talking and talking about bragging. And he's like, is there ever a time when it's, when it's kinda okay to brag or even good to brag? And I'm like, listen, I'm not gonna speak in absolutes here, but off the top of my head, in the next 30 seconds or in the last 30 seconds, I have not been able to think of a moment where it's like, yep, the right thing to do right now is to brag. That's gonna make things better. So maybe you can think of one. And I even went to the point, I stretched and said like, well, there's times where it's good to brag about your team, but you're still not bragging about yourself. You're bragging about your team. That's, there's times where yes, that's gonna happen. That's gonna be good. You know, the boss doesn't quite see the, the, the work that they've done. It's like, hey, boss, I wanna let you know that, you know?

• 2:11:36Jocko Willink?

  So bragging about your team, yep. Trying to find a time where it's like, hey, the move, the good move to make is to brag about yourself. I couldn't think of any situations, so.

• 2:11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was that was essentially it. And really, man, I thought about a little bit more later where I'm like, hey, wait, under these are and then but even no matter the circumstances, if you introduce the two options of brag, no brag, but no brag all day, pretty much, pretty much across the board.

• 2:12:00JP Dinnell?

  Would be telling somebody that you quit drinking. Do you think that's bragging though?

• 2:12:05Speaker 02

  Well, it depends on your intention. So.

• 2:12:07JP Dinnell?

  I agree.

• 2:12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. So if you're just like stating the fact because of, you know, and it's relevant, then yeah, a lot, most of the time. But yeah, it's going to depend on the intention.

• 2:12:15JP Dinnell?

  Well, I I'm I figured that's where we go with that. I was curious because my buddy Steven, he his church just did this fast. He did a 40 day fast of no, he didn't eat any food like where he had to chew. So he could do liquid. So no chewing of food for 40 days. That's pretty crazy. Was he allowed to have?

• 2:12:31Speaker 02

  Mocha?

• 2:12:32JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 2:12:32Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:12:34JP Dinnell?

  He went through a lot.

• 2:12:36Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 2:12:37JP Dinnell?

  He went through a lot of. Put down some mocha. But that was saying, but yeah, we say that, yeah. But not being able to chew on a steak in 40 days, Jocko, like not being able to do it. So he did that. But his thing was, he also didn't tell people. Because what you don't want to be doing, it's like, like. Flexing. Yeah, flexing. And that was like, you know, like, like, oh, look at me. I'm I'm I'm fasting. I'm fasting. I'm holier than now. That's what the Pharisees did back in the day. Like, hey, let it be known, we are fasting for spirit. You know, it's like, you're taken away from the purpose of that fast. And that was Steven's, though, I thought was cool. It was like, he would, he wasn't telling people. It was just like, he's doing his own thing. And we went to a group dinner and, you know, it was just like. He's like, you got any mocha?

• 2:13:21JP Dinnell?

  But he like, he told like. He took a mocha. The guys, yeah, we were there because they didn't know he was fasting. He's like, hey, I just, man, I don't, I don't want to bring it up, but I also don't want to be weird. Let him be the only person that doesn't eat. He goes, hey, I'm, you know, I'm on a fast with my church. It's a 40 day fast. I appreciate being here at dinner, but you know, I'm just liquid only. And both the guys were like, man, that's really cool. That's awesome. So it was his intent. He was making sure. And I was just curious, though, the whole, like, I think it's, I think it's powerful. It can be powerful. Like when my brother decided to quit drinking. That's, you know, when he was, you know, it can be powerful to tell people that you're not drinking anymore. Because now it might trigger for somebody else of like, you know what? I don't want to drink anymore. I don't need to drink anymore. But if you're just like, hey,

• 2:14:07JP Dinnell?

  oh, you're getting hammered. Yeah, I quit drinking. I'm better than you then.

• 2:14:10Jocko Willink?

  You know what this all boils down to Echo Charles? This all boils down to another topic we just talked about. What is the intent of you saying this?

• 2:14:18JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:18Jocko Willink?

  If the intent of you saying this is truly like, hey, I think it really might help JP if I'm like, hey, listen, man, you know what? I quit drinking. And my true intent is like, that's another person in JP's life that he looks at and goes, damn, you know, now Jocko's not drinking. That makes sense. There's a lot of people. Maybe this is something I should do. If my intent is to go, hey JP, I actually quit drinking.

• 2:14:43Jocko Willink?

  And I'm better than you. You know what I mean? If that's where you're at, then then you're kind of bragging and you're kind of a loser.

• 2:14:48JP Dinnell?

  I made a comment to a buddy in my tent was like, he was like, sending me these videos on Instagram and I was like, hey, just be careful watching those videos because it opens up doors to stuff that that you're desensitizing yourself. I'm like, it's like porn, man. I'm like, I stopped watching porn and it wasn't for me like, because it's literally, oh, like it's been a year, February, right? I haven't looked at porn, have had zero desires like, you know, because I went to a men's retreat and I realized like, I talked to you about this and I was just like, I don't, that's toxic. It's it's literally killing your brain watching porn. Like it's it's horrible for you. And you know, it's been a year. I've had zero desires, you know, which is cool.

• 2:15:33JP Dinnell?

  And I was explaining it to this guy. I'm like, yeah, hey, man, I stopped watching porn because, you know, and I explained the reasons why. And he's like, you know what? You're the third person that has said recently that they stopped watching porn. He goes, you're one of the guys I look up to. He goes, I don't need to be doing that anymore. And it was, I wasn't doing it to brag, but it was like, hey, man, you should, should be careful what you're watching, man, because you're just desensitizing your brain and I mean, there's a reason why like things like that you look at, like it should bother you. But if you keep looking at them, eventually they won't bother you. And that's a, that's not a good place to be at. So.

• 2:16:07Jocko Willink?

  Sure, sure.

• 2:16:08JP Dinnell?

  So yes, that does determine whether you're bragging or not, your intentions. But so bragging is kind of like drinking in a way. So it's like, hey, look, we're not bragging, straight up. We're not bragging.

• 2:16:19Speaker 02

  You get caught slipping bragging, at least do it about something good, which we said because what I brought up was like, what if you donate like to a school or something like that? So it's like, hey, if you get caught up slipping and you start bragging, at least make it a good cause. See what I'm saying?

• 2:16:34Jocko Willink?

  Like when your friends retired after 24 years in the

• 2:16:36Speaker 02

  Exactly right.

• 2:16:37Jocko Willink?

  I mean, okay.

• 2:16:38Speaker 02

  But that's what I'm saying.

• 2:16:39Jocko Willink?

  So you're giving him some slack.

• 2:16:40Speaker 02

  If you're gonna brag, look, if you're gonna brag, if you're gonna drink, and it's for a good cause, hey, we'll cut you some slack.

• 2:16:45Jocko Willink?

  There's no good cause to drink, bro. I'll tell you though, man, like I said.

• 2:16:49Speaker 02

  Oh, don't get me wrong. Hey, hey, look, drink, no drink, no drink all day.

• 2:16:53Jocko Willink?

  I understand what you're saying.

• 2:16:54Speaker 02

  I get it, yeah. But I'm saying, I'm drawing the parallels between bragging and drinking.

• 2:16:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Same deal, right? Here's the thing, man. And I actually had a couple of people, at some point, somebody asked me something about alcohol. I forget who it was.

• 2:17:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, underground.

• 2:17:08Jocko Willink?

  No, oh, yeah, maybe it was the underground. But basically, I said, hey, man, there's just, like, I just can't get behind it at all. I'm just, I'm just not, it's just not happening. It's just not good. There's nothing good that comes out of it. And I had so many people say, thank you for saying that. And it's a mindset shift because it's so easy to go, well, you know, you know, Jaco said there is a time and a place for it, and guess when that time and place is? Well, it's, you know, Friday night, you know, for sure. Actually, Saturday night's kind of slipped in there, too. And by the way, Sunday can be pretty cool. You know, you got the ballgame on. And then, you know, Monday, after work, you kind of want to decompress, and next thing you know, it's Tuesday. And Tuesday's leading into hump day Wednesday, and so you kind of got to get over the hump to the hump. So that's Tuesday, Wednesday, next thing you know, you're just drinking. And you're not getting anything beneficial out of it. It's just not helping you.

• 2:17:53Jocko Willink?

  And there's a billion other things that you can do that are gonna, that are gonna move you in a positive direction. So I can't even, uh, can't even get behind it at all.

• 2:18:03Speaker 02

  Don't get behind it.

• 2:18:04Jocko Willink?

  I'm just not behind it, man.

• 2:18:05Speaker 02

  Don't do it. Don't do it, agree. Uh, okay, so what you can't get behind is exercising, so let's go back to

• 2:18:10Jocko Willink?

  You know what, if I'm gonna be drinking, let me tell you something. You know what I'm drinking?

• 2:18:13Speaker 02

  Milk.

• 2:18:14Jocko Willink?

  I'm drinking a milk.

• 2:18:15Speaker 02

  Wait, so, yeah, true.

• 2:18:16Jocko Willink?

  I'm drinking a go.

• 2:18:17Speaker 02

  But you mentioned exercise, right, where it improves every, every part of your, uh, life. So we, we listen to Peter Attia, we're familiar.

• 2:18:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we are.

• 2:18:24Speaker 02

  See what I'm saying? So there is one, a popular one, where actually, even when he, when I see it again, I'll just watch it again, just for the message. Where he was saying about like, even if you smoke and do all this other stuff, it like reduces your, uh, what do you call mortality, right? Like by a lot. But if you exercise and get to this certain level of fitness, it reduces mortality like by a certain like exponentially, then the detriment would be for the drinking and the smoking.

• 2:18:49Jocko Willink?

  What, what's even more important? He's like, exercise is hands down the best medication for all cause mortality. Like the way he says it in his, you know, in his Peter T away. You know, when you get done with that, you're like, if I don't exercise, I'm an actual idiot.

• 2:19:07Speaker 02

  Choosing to be.

• 2:19:08Jocko Willink?

  I'm, I'm choosing to be an actual freaking idiot. If I don't exercise, I'm choosing to be an actual freaking idiot. All cause mortality. Like that's a good one, man. Bring that, put that in, put that into the mix, right? We'll get to Peter Tia, we'll talk all cause mortality.

• 2:19:25Speaker 02

  Right. You know who?

• 2:19:25Jocko Willink?

  He's got a new book coming out. I have it by the way.

• 2:19:27Speaker 02

  What? Peter T's new?

• 2:19:28Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Yep. And he's going to be coming back on the podcast to go through. It's, it's 700 pages, some crazy amount of pages. I was like, because you know, I haven't read it yet. Cause I, I don't read books until they're going to come on the podcast. Cause otherwise I gotta reread them anyways.

• 2:19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So all cause mortality, exercise is the best thing you can get. Next thing, diet. So we gotta be getting good fuel into our system. That means we're on Jaco fuel, by the way. It's true. Jacofield.com. Go there, get some, get yourself some of those Molk RTDs.

• 2:20:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's gonna save you on all liquid fast, by the way. The Molk.

• 2:20:08JP Dinnell?

  He was doing a lot of that and a lot of the greens.

• 2:20:10Jocko Willink?

  Dude, he must have been crushing that stuff. Yeah, the greens would be a huge one for that, for sure. If you're not eating any food and the greens, what's crazy about the drink greens is they taste good. They taste good with that monk fruit in there. Ah, and you don't have to, you don't have to drink dirt. You can. I mean, it's an option. You know, like in Bud's, you put sand in your mouth, sand and seaweed chunks in your mouth. Cool. If you go to the store and buy the other brand of greens, you also putting sand or dirt in your mouth. No need though. You can put something that tastes good in your mouth. You can have the after dinner port.

• 2:20:47JP Dinnell?

  The port.

• 2:20:49Jocko Willink?

  The port. Look, we're not drinking alcohol, so we can't have port. Guess what we can have? Greens. It's the same thickness, like it's the same consistency as port. And it's better, tastes better, and it's good for you. There's no hangover.

• 2:21:03JP Dinnell?

  No.

• 2:21:04Jocko Willink?

  It's actually good for you. It's giving you 3,758 different types of vegetables or whatever. It has got it all.

• 2:21:11JP Dinnell?

  Drink your greens in the morning or in the evening?

• 2:21:14Jocko Willink?

  I drink them in the evening.

• 2:21:15JP Dinnell?

  In the evening?

• 2:21:15Jocko Willink?

  It's a lot better. Makes you sleep better. And it's like, for me, look, no matter what, I kind of want something sweet. Sweet tooth weakness, maybe, maybe. But the greens are that thing where you're like, cool, just gonna have, just gonna have a nice little sweet something. Cleanse the palate for the evening and sleep better.

• 2:21:34JP Dinnell?

  Aiden asked Amanda, he's like, hey, you think JP will let me start taking the creatine from Jaco Fuel?

• 2:21:43JP Dinnell?

  Go ahead.

• 2:21:43Jocko Willink?

  Affirmative?

• 2:21:44JP Dinnell?

  Oh, yes.

• 2:21:45Jocko Willink?

  I didn't want to, I didn't want to, you know, that's, that's your territory, but I'm like, we're gonna have a conversation afterward because I think it's time.

• 2:21:51JP Dinnell?

  You don't think you don't have influence over that boy's life?

• 2:21:54Jocko Willink?

  You know, on that C train?

• 2:21:55JP Dinnell?

  I mean, yeah, he's about to be 17 and his size and everything. I mean, it's, you know, and he's lifting.

• 2:22:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, next year, he's 180, what did he wrestle at this year? 182?

• 2:22:03JP Dinnell?

  No, he, no, so he's 183 right now. He was wrestling at 175.

• 2:22:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. Next year, he's gonna be a whole different, two weight classes up. If he's on the C train and he's jacking steel. And yeah, I mean, he's gonna be jack, gee, act.

• 2:22:17JP Dinnell?

  I'm actually excited. Like, I told him, I'm like, bro, if you just amp your aggression up, because he's not an aggressive kid. You, you, he's just like literally the nicest kid alive. I'm like, hey, wrestling allows you to be aggressive. You can go out there and be as violent and mean as you want, and you're not gonna get in trouble.

• 2:22:33Jocko Willink?

  You'll get rewarded.

• 2:22:34JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, you're actually gonna get rewarded. So I'm trying to like flip that switch and he's getting it. But anyways, uh, so he was asking Amanda about the creatine. She's like, I think so. He's like, cool. He's like, I'm gonna start putting it with the greens.

• 2:22:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's exactly what I do.

• 2:22:46JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, so.

• 2:22:47Jocko Willink?

  That's exactly what I do.

• 2:22:48JP Dinnell?

  Well, yeah, once he listens to this and hears that, like 100%, I can tell him, yeah, okay, cool. And Jaco's like, hey, I, I mix creatine with my greens and drink it before and sleep. Guess what that kid and every other 18 year old, 17 year old in the United States could be doing.

• 2:23:01Jocko Willink?

  Dude, hell, yeah. Good. When you, when you're that age, you can change the trajectory of your life so much when you're 15, 16, 17, 18 years old. So much you can aim it and it's like the trajectory, what the trajectory that you that you get on when you're 17 years old is so impactful, man. Yes, go Aiden, C train, greens, milk, Jack, deadlift, squats, pull ups. That's what we're doing. Aggression, it's gonna come. I'm gonna think through that one. I'm gonna think what we're gonna do. I'm thinking, I'm thinking about that.

• 2:23:39JP Dinnell?

  Cause but here's the flip side. I say that and like, you know, it's amazing. He'll be 17 in two weeks. He's never been in trouble. The only time he's been in trouble is he got nervous and he lied to Amanda. Like I have a 16 year old, almost 17 year old. I'm sorry, we and I haven't ever like, he's never come home late. He's never been in a fight. Now there's times he should have defended himself and I'm like, hey, if they do that to you again, you are cleared hot. Like

• 2:24:10Jocko Willink?

  We call that double leg grounded pound. That's what we call it. It's no big deal. But you know, people should know, your other nickname at school should be, oh, that's double leg grounded.

• 2:24:21JP Dinnell?

  But you know, like, you know what I mean? Like I look at his phone, like there's nothing inappropriate. They're like, nothing, nothing, nothing. So you know what? I'm good with that, man. Yep. Like amazing, amazing. Now the aggression will come. And that's cool. And it will.

• 2:24:34Jocko Willink?

  He'll learn a channel. Yeah, there's a, there's a channel that hasn't been exposed yet. There's a, there's a, there's a path, a little neuron that hasn't connected yet. That's the switch. And once that connects.

• 2:24:51JP Dinnell?

  Cora and Nola have that. Cora's had that for, I mean, good Lord. I mean, we went to some like medieval times and I have a video, I'll show you guys later. I posted the picture of it.

• 2:25:07Speaker 02

  She was so into it. She's like, rip his head off. What is that? But you know.

• 2:25:17Jocko Willink?

  There you go. So we're on Jaco Fuel, Jaco Fuel.com, Wawa, Vitamin Shop. By the way, GNC. Did you know that?

• 2:25:25Speaker 02

  Did I know that?

• 2:25:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. We're live at GNC. Um, and we talked about GNC. That's kind of, to me, that's like one of those iconic.

• 2:25:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:25:33Jocko Willink?

  It's a thing.

• 2:25:34Speaker 02

  Yes, it is.

• 2:25:35Jocko Willink?

  It's a thing. So you got that. You got the military commissary. You got a bunch of friends right now sending me pictures. You know, they're in the commissary picking it up. Hanaford, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakeform, Shopper, Shopper, Shop Right, Circle K in Florida, HEB. Hey, everyone in Texas, thank you. HEB is like, what is this? So appreciate everyone going into HEB and, and grabbing. I know HEB, like Texas, HEB is, is a, man, it is iconic in Texas. So appreciate that. It's available. We'll, I know it runs out. We'll send more. Keep getting after it. And same thing with Meyer up in the Midwest. Um, happy to be in there and happy that everyone's in there getting after it.

• 2:26:20Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Jaco Fuel.com. Check it out. The best stuff you can get. Which is pretty cool, right?

• 2:26:25Speaker 02

  Actually, yeah.

• 2:26:26Jocko Willink?

  It's pretty cool when you say, oh, this is the best stuff you can get. Yep. It's the best stuff you can get. So there you go.

• 2:26:32Speaker 02

  Also, Origin. Origin USA, best stuff you can get. For many reasons, one in which is made in America. It's a big deal. You don't find that that often.

• 2:26:43Jocko Willink?

  No. What you do find is 13 year old girls in a sweatshop. Third world nationals that are being abused. That's what you find. Modern day slaves. Oh, what's, what's Jaco talking about? Oh, go on the interwebs and go look up, you know, sweatshop and see what you find.

• 2:27:06Speaker 02

  In the industry, we call that uniquely priced manufacturing costs.

• 2:27:10Jocko Willink?

  Oh, slave. We call that slave labor. They call it uniquely priced manufacturing. So just terrible. And by the way, go look at the, you know, people talk about the environment. I'm obviously, I surf. I spend a lot of time in the outdoors. I love being outdoors. I hunt. I go to the mountains. I, I.

• 2:27:33Jocko Willink?

  Value the environment in a, in a way that's profound. Go see what a factory overseas does to the environment. They literally do not give a shit about the environment. They literally do not care at all. Whatever comes, whatever chemicals are left over, it goes right in the river. River goes right to the ocean. They do not care. There's no EPA in China, doesn't exist.

• 2:27:57Jocko Willink?

  So just think about what you're doing.

• 2:28:00Jocko Willink?

  And get some originusa.com, get your jeans there. Don't get jeans from a sweatshop made by slaves. Don't do that.

• 2:28:10Jocko Willink?

  Support America, support American workers. Get jeans, get boots, get hunt gear, get your jujitsu gi. Greg Train's brother.

• 2:28:19JP Dinnell?

  Uh, which one? Brandon.

• 2:28:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Brandon.

• 2:28:23Jocko Willink?

  I just gave him one of the new gis and he was like, he was holding it.

• 2:28:29Jocko Willink?

  I put it in his hands and he was holding it like in wonder.

• 2:28:32JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:28:33Jocko Willink?

  He was like, no, cause the thing is, he had an origin gi, one of the old ones. And it, and it got a rip in it. And I was like, he was, hey, is this normal? And I was like, oh my God. And I like videoed it and I was like, hey, Pete, Amanda, check this out. Like, are you going to send this back to the factory? You guys can frame it. There's been like three is a jacket failure. It's a, it's a real anomaly. So anyways, they sent him out two more of the new ones, but he, I gave it to him. He was like, he's like looking at it as if it was a foreign substance.

• 2:29:02JP Dinnell?

  Crazy what you just said. That is like, oh my gosh, let's frame it. Cause it doesn't happen for origin gis.

• 2:29:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:11JP Dinnell?

  Almost every other gi company out there, they tear up, they rip up. And I was rolling with one of my black belts and I grabbed the back of his gi and went to pull. And Lily, I heard it start to rip. I don't know what my testosterone shot up to because I knew that I was ripping his gi. And I literally ripped open his gi and he was like, bro, what the? And I'm like, that's what you get for having shit not made in America. And I ordered him a gi from origin and now he wears obviously our gis. But it was funny, just like, like what you just said, like.

• 2:29:46Speaker 02

  It's so rare for anything to not be of the best quality from Origin that you're like, you want to frame this because it started to rest and probably because the dude's like trained in like, like a madman.

• 2:29:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. OriginUSA.com. Yep. Also check that out.

• 2:30:01Speaker 02

  Yep. It's true.

• 2:30:02Jocko Willink?

  What up?

• 2:30:03Speaker 02

  Also Jaco's.

• 2:30:04Jocko Willink?

  What?

• 2:30:05Speaker 02

  Jaco has a store called Jaco's Store. All right. It's where you can represent while we're on this path. It's a big deal. The path. If you're on the path, be proud of yourself. Represent, I think.

• 2:30:15Jocko Willink?

  Good call.

• 2:30:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Discipline equals freedom. Good. Also, we have a thing called the Shirt Locker, which is a membership scenario, subscription, if you will. Some good designs on there.

• 2:30:23Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:30:24Speaker 02

  I see you representing from time to time, JP.

• 2:30:26Jocko Willink?

  I do.

• 2:30:26Speaker 02

  Makes me happy. But anyway, yeah, go on there, Jaco's Store.com. That's where you can check out all that stuff. If you like something, hey man.

• 2:30:33Jocko Willink?

  You know who's fired up for the Shirt Locker? Jamie Cochran's dad.

• 2:30:36Speaker 02

  Yes, sir. Yeah. Direct reports.

• 2:30:39Jocko Willink?

  We appreciate the support across the board. Uh, yeah. Subscribe to the podcast. Subscribe to Jaco Underground. We just, we brought up a bunch. Look, on the Jaco Underground, we're kind of talking about all kinds of stuff and a lot of the, we answer a lot of questions too, from people that are subscribed to Jaco Underground, but we heard us refer back to it a lot today. So check that out if you want. JacoUnderground.com.

• 2:31:05Speaker 02

  The questions to kinda, which I've kinda noticed a lot more recently, maybe the past, maybe two months or so, that the questions that are submitted and you answer and give good answers, but they elicit even more questions that we tend to talk about even deeper. You know, because you know, a question is like, some of the time it's like, oh, I'm doing this. I'm doing this. I'm doing this. It's like, cool. Here's the answer, but the specific situation you're in doesn't apply to everyone. So let's go to like the, the idea behind the situation.

• 2:31:32Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:31:32Speaker 02

  And then there's a few questions you gotta sort out behind there, behind that wall or whatever. And then you can understand the whole thing a little bit more clearly.

• 2:31:38Jocko Willink?

  How do these principles broadly apply?

• 2:31:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:31:41Jocko Willink?

  Looks, how they specifically apply to you Fred that asked the question, but then how does that answer broadly apply to everyone that's listening?

• 2:31:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31:48Jocko Willink?

  To make their life better.

• 2:31:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31:50Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. JacoUnderground.com, YouTube. Subscribe to the YouTube channel. There's the Jocko Podcast YouTube channel. There's the Origin USA Podcast or, or channel, YouTube channel. There's also a Jaco Fuel channel. So check those out if you want to, if you want to know what's happening. Uh, psychological warfare. We got flip side canvas Dakota Meyer. Making cool stuff to hang on your wall. A bunch of cool books. You can check out the books. You already know what they are. The kids book way the warrior five came out. Did you know that? Did you know that? Did you get it for your kid yet? Did you get it for your neighbors kids? Did you get it for your nephew? Did you want to take a, a, you know, a kid that's, you want to talk about trajectory?

• 2:32:35Jocko Willink?

  Shifts in life? Take an 11 year old kid? And get them the way the warrior kid series? And have the trajectory of their life point in a the most positive direction it can possibly get pointed in. And I know that's a bold statement. Guess how much feedback I've gotten that said exactly that I can't count. So get those books for your kids. Echelon front. We have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. If you have problems in your organization, they're leadership problems. They are leadership problems. And what will fix them is fixing your leadership. Oh, that offended you?

• 2:33:16Jocko Willink?

  You're like, oh, what's wrong with my leadership? Listen, if there's problems in your organization, there's problems with your leadership. There's problems with your team's leadership. You can, you can either be offended by that. Or you could say, oh, that's probably a pretty good point. Maybe there are, maybe I'm humble enough to say, oh, there's some adjustments I could make. That sounds like a good idea. And when you make that. When you make that incredibly powerful mental leap and you put your ego in check and you decide, you know what? I could probably become a little bit better of an, of a leader. Go to echelonfront.com. And see what we've got going on there. Come to one of our live events or you can go on our extreme ownership academy.

• 2:33:57Jocko Willink?

  And you can, you can bring your whole organization through that. We have enterprise opportunities. You want to put, you got, oh, you've got 72,000 employees and you want them all to be aligned around leadership. Well, then go to extremeownership.com and we will get you set up for your 72,000 employees. Oh, you only, you, you have a business and you've only got four employees. Oh, guess what? We got you. Oh, you're trying to just become a better leader yourself. Cool. We got you. Do you become a better leader overnight? Nope. You don't. Do you get in good shape after you went to the gym one time? No, you don't. That's why we have the Leadership Gym.

• 2:34:40Jocko Willink?

  Extremeownership.com. Go and check that out. There's, there's live stuff that we do. There's courses to take. There's all kinds of things that are going to help you become a better leader. So check that out. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. One of the things that she does is help veterans with medical care that is not provided by the VA. For instance, hyperbaric chamber. What does that do to your brain?

• 2:35:21JP Dinnell?

  Matt, it just heals everything, which is incredible. Um, you know, COVID hit and I know I briefly talked about this before, but for those that maybe didn't listen to those episodes or listen now, COVID hit and I was actually able to get, uh, reach out to Mama Lee and say, hey, I know you've been trying to get me to go do these treatments. I think I have a gap. Remember when we're like, hey, maybe, maybe two weeks. I was like, I might, I might be able to do it for a week, but obviously we had more time and I went and had the treatments. At the time I was having a kidney and adrenal gland failure. They weren't sure what was happening. They couldn't, like literally nobody could tell. We had no answers. My body was shutting down and there's a couple of times I had completely blacked out, passed out during workouts. I mean, I was getting blurred vision. I'd have to pull over while driving. I'd just be throwing up on the side of the road. It was, it was

• 2:36:05JP Dinnell?

  bad. I hit a lot of that from a lot of people because I just didn't have the time to slow down. Covid hit. I was able to get in those treatments. 180. Like just crazy what it was able to do. And we have other guys like Cowie who's gone to the treatments and he's now going to these advanced treatments that their foundation is helping getting guys into and it's incredible what it's doing from just healing the brain and the body and just getting us back closer to that baseline of where we need to be. So it was awesome.

• 2:36:35Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. If you want to support that, that's like, there's a, there, um, what is it? You ever seen those things where you can like, they used to have them on TV? I don't know if they still have them, but you could, you could basically like donate to when there was famines in Africa. They'd be like, they'd be like, hey, if you give $12 a month, you can help this kid. They'd show the kid. Yeah. Well, this is like, there's a price tag that these things have and it's expensive, but that's what Mama Lee does. She says, okay, this amount of money can handle this many veterans. And so there's a JP out there, there's a Cowie out there, there's a whoever. Yep. Here we go. You need this treatment. We got

• 2:37:15Jocko Willink?

  you. Yeah. And it's incredibly impactful. So Mama Lee, thank you for everything. Yes. America's MightyWarriors.org and then of course, HeroesAndHorses.org. You got Micah Fink. What's the latest report? Did you get an update? What's the update?

• 2:37:32Speaker 02

  I got half an update.

• 2:37:33Jocko Willink?

  What'd you hear?

• 2:37:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a mountain lion.

• 2:37:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay, mountain lion.

• 2:37:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they had something to do with, um,

• 2:37:38Jocko Willink?

  grappling?

• 2:37:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was a front headlock specifically. Yeah.

• 2:37:43Jocko Willink?

  So right now, apparently,

• 2:37:45Speaker 02

  I don't know how it happened.

• 2:37:46Jocko Willink?

  Micah Fink has a mountain lion in a front headlock and you know, he's handling things.

• 2:37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:53Jocko Willink?

  And he's also taking a bunch of veterans up into the mountains to help them find themselves again. Uh JP, if you want to connect with JP, he's on Twitter and he's on Instagram. And he's also has what? Uh, Jesus and Jiu Jitsu?

• 2:38:08JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:08Jocko Willink?

  Or is it Jiu Jitsu and Jesus?

• 2:38:09JP Dinnell?

  No, it's Jesus and Jiu Jitsu.

• 2:38:10Jocko Willink?

  Jesus comes first.

• 2:38:11JP Dinnell?

  Yep. That's like on the rash guard. It's Jesus is big and bold on the top and then underneath Jiu Jitsu is below it. It's a ministry that uh my buddies and I started and I say my buddies first because we all had this idea at the same time. We came back from this men's retreat that we were leading at. We'd gone to it before. We came back to lead and support. I guess I should say serve and uh God put it on all of our hearts at separate, separate times and we were all talking about it like the same Monday leading the event. We're like, all right, there's something here. And Steven and Isaac have just ran with it. They have just completely ran with it. Josh as well. And so Josh, uh Steven, Isaac and I um you are, I guess you say the, you know, the board members of, you know, Jesus and Jiu Jitsu.

• 2:38:55Jocko Willink?

  Triple J.

• 2:38:56JP Dinnell?

  Uh Triple J. And uh, you know, it's awesome. So uh we try to do um an event once a month at a, at different gyms in the area. Uh, we're gonna start traveling to different areas as well as we build the ministry and um uh it's cool. So we start off, we have somebody teach some Jiu Jitsu and then uh a different person shares their testimony of just like their story of their relationship with God and you know, how they found Jesus and salvation and what it means to them. And then we um offer up opportunity for people to like prayer. Like if someone wants to dedicate their life to Jesus, that we do a group prayer for everybody. And we don't ask anybody like, oh, hey, if you did that, let us know. Cause we don't want to embarrass anybody. But we also provide bibles to people that don't have bibles or

• 2:39:41JP Dinnell?

  have never had a bible or need a new one. And it's really cool to see the doors that it's opening, you know, like my professor, Fermiga, um uh Rafael Barbosa, um who owns Double Five, he's let us do it at his gym multiple times. And he's like, wait, it's Jesus and Jiu Jitsu? Whatever you guys need from me. I'm here to support you, which has been cool. And it was the uh, the third one that we did, he was out of town, but his wife Lisa was there. And afterwards, she's like, hey, Can I have one of those bibles? And we're like, yes, of course. Like, yeah, you know, they didn't have a bible. And then that next Sunday, they came to church with us and it was an amazing service. And he goes, JP, I think he was talking to me the whole time. I'm like, he was talking to me also. Like, I was like, cause there's levels to these.

• 2:40:25JP Dinnell?

  He's like, man, this is just, it was so powerful. And like, I asked him, I'm like, well, did you pray the prayer of salvation afterwards? He's like, yes, yeah. So from that, like, we've had doors open to where guys are like, hey, I want to go to church. I want to try it out. And now there's people that are like dedicating their life to Jesus, you know, growing the kingdom, which is, which is pretty awesome to be able to do. So doing that, uh, which the, the purpose also is to bring people to go to Pursuit, which is that men's event that I went to actually to the year today was last February. I went to Pursuit, which is through our buddies ministry, Walking in Truth. And it's, the goal is just to obviously expose people to Jesus in an environment

• 2:41:10JP Dinnell?

  that probably most people would never go to church. And we have people that have come to our events that are atheists, that we have, that we have agnostic people. We have, you know, people of all walks that literally come because they're like, hey, it's jujitsu. We want to support. And now it's somebody that would literally never walk into a church are now hearing about Jesus. And they're hearing it from like guys that we, we share our testimonies. Like, hey, man, I am a jacked up individual. I am a flawed individual. If it wasn't for the grace of God, like I wouldn't be standing here and able to share our different stories and testimonies. It's been really cool to see the doors that has opened up. Um, and you know, and the last, they just had a pursuit recently. And because of the Jesus and jujitsu we did last month, I think three or four people went to Pursuit.

• 2:41:54JP Dinnell?

  So now they want to go to this event, they get this freedom. It's a, it's a freedom based ministry for, uh, men and women. So it's really cool to see what those doors have opened up, um, the relationships from that. And it's, it's cool that I'm, I'm doing that with, you know, three of my closest friends. And then the two other businesses that we were talking about before, it's like, one is with Josh, On The Path Printing, Printing Apparel and the other one.

• 2:42:18Jocko Willink?

  On The Path Printing, is that the website?

• 2:42:21JP Dinnell?

  Uh, so, yeah. And so mostly it's on Instagram and we don't have a big website. And the reason why it's, we are very selective with who we want to work with. You know, Nick Livery, who is on here, we're going to be printing for him. Um, once we have it fully up and running. And like Josh has been super default aggressive, like to do all these things, but he's also the alignment that we have in regards to this. Hey man, if we're not able to deliver the best product, like I don't want us doing this until we can. He goes, I know it can't be perfect. And he helps out at the musters and FTXs. He goes, I know it can't be perfect, but it's got to be the best product to these people. And he's like, I want us, you know, and that's our goal is to,

• 2:43:01JP Dinnell?

  to serve patriots, to serve ministries, jujitsu gyms, first responders, like we're going to pick who we want to work with. PJ, who helps out at all of our events, we're going to be printing for his fire department. And we're going to be printing for our jujitsu gym. So it gives us the ability to choose who we want to work with. So it's just through Instagram on the path printing. So that's, that's where we're at right there. And then on the other side, Steven is with his, his cattle company, you know, he has a beef company he's had for a couple of years. Little cattle co and being able to help, you know, it's, it's really cool. The doors of the opened up and just seeing the opportunities, trying to be obedient to the opportunities that God's giving me and understanding like,

• 2:43:46JP Dinnell?

  hey, if I have an opportunity, like not seizing that opportunity is just as bad as doing the wrong thing in my mind, you know? Cause if God's giving me an opportunity and he's blessing me with the abilities to go out there and do something with other people and, and help people. Yeah. I should absolutely be doing that. And through the printing company, we're going to be helping out a lot of ministries and churches and foundations. And for us, that's a way to give back and to bless people like Mama Leash. She's like, wait, when can you print? I'm like, as soon as we can, I promise you. You're first on the list. You're the first one on the list. And then, you know, Stevens had the beef company for a couple of years and I always told him like, hey man, if there's anything I can help you to take this to the next level, cool. I'm not trying to get in on, I'm not trying to like take advantage or capitalize.

• 2:44:32JP Dinnell?

  But if I can help you, like, let me know. So how do people find that? Same thing. Instagram right now is Little Cattle Co. Like as in company, Little Cattle Co. Steven Little is his name, you know? And having the website built up as well. And it'll be like, so someone wants to get online and, you know, order some sirloins and some. Tomahawks and some filets and some ground beef like they can it'll be direct to consumer beef sales and we know the quality. We know the source. His uncle has been this is awesome. Like this is something that I'm excited that Aiden's going to be able to experience and me selfishly. Like I get to go do some cowboying, you know, because I've always been infatuated with that.

• 2:45:15JP Dinnell?

  Cause my grandfather did this. Um, his uncle, Uncle Rocky has been cowboying all over Texas for over 30 years. Every major ranch, he's been a cowboy there and he knows the business. And that's who's like allowing us to, to grow the business. We have access to as many steers as we want and it's all high quality. Just knowing what we're getting. It's a big thing right now. So it's cool. It's, I'm excited and you know, somebody, I stole your, your line. You said multiple times, like I, I had a, another buddy who was like, man, how are you doing all these things? Like you're crazy busy with Echelon Front. I'm like, well, realize that I'm not as hands-on on all these other things as you think. So if I gave you that perception, I'm sorry,

• 2:46:00JP Dinnell?

  but I use the laws of combat. I can do multiple things because of the laws of combat. I can help build Little Calico on the path printing. Like my professor for me goes like, hey, do you want to partner with me to help open up a bigger gym in this area? And I'm like, yes. Like no brainer, right? You're one of the best at jiu-jitsu and an amazing instructor. So we're, we're having those discussions right now as well. And it's just like because of what we do at Echelon.

• 2:46:26Jocko Willink?

  And Formega's Academy is double five. Yep. What's the, how do people find that?

• 2:46:31JP Dinnell?

  Just Instagram, double five jiu-jitsu or double five HV for Highlands Village. That's the area that we're in. Um,

• 2:46:38Jocko Willink?

  Great school. Formega's great. Like,

• 2:46:39JP Dinnell?

  Nine, nine time world champ, 11 time Pan Am champ.

• 2:46:43Jocko Willink?

  Very, very detailed instructor too. Just squared away. He's from the deck, right?

• 2:46:49JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 2:46:50Jocko Willink?

  He from the deck.

• 2:46:51JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. So he's, and that's what's cool. Cause now I'm part of the Deco's lineage and Pete Roberts lineage.

• 2:46:56Jocko Willink?

  You guys are connected. You guys are brothers now.

• 2:46:59JP Dinnell?

  I am.

• 2:46:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Check that out. It's kind of like me and Echo Charles. Kind of right. You know, a little bit.

• 2:47:05JP Dinnell?

  Pretty much. Yeah.

• 2:47:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The lineage. Uh, that's awesome, man. All kinds of good stuff going on, which is as it should be.

• 2:47:12JP Dinnell?

  Yo. Uh, one thing I wrote down and I have to say, cause it'll bother me earlier when, when you're doing the intro. And I, you know, I said titles don't matter.

• 2:47:24JP Dinnell?

  But I corrected you on my title and that bothers me.

• 2:47:28JP Dinnell?

  It bothers me.

• 2:47:28Jocko Willink?

  It was a test, dude.

• 2:47:31JP Dinnell?

  I don't care what it was, but here's the deal. If titles don't matter, I shouldn't have said anything. But I really believe at Echelon Front, we've known since day one. I mean, you straight up told us, I remember at one of the early meetings, like, hey, man, the titles don't matter. But I know to other people, titles are important. So we want to make sure we give you guys the right, proper titles as we're growing this business.

• 2:47:55JP Dinnell?

  You and Leif gave me an opportunity that is unlike anything else. I don't need a title to be here. You know what I mean? Like, I will be here until the day I die, like I said. But I'm also proud of the fact of like where I was at six years ago. And what you and Leif were like, hey, man, here's an opportunity. And Jamie as well, you know what I mean? Like you, you and Leif opened up the door and Jamie helped facilitate it. Dave Burke, I, I tell this to everybody, Dave Burke is a guy I've always looked up to. He's my best friend. He's my mentor. He's somebody that I, he's helped me here at Echelon Front, even though technically I came in before him. He's a guy I've always looked up to.

• 2:48:35JP Dinnell?

  And just the opportunity to do what we do at Echelon Front, like I want to make sure it is always very apparent and clear that. It is something I am forever indebted to you guys for. But I am proud of that title because I know what it represents in regards to what you and Leif want to build. Not because of what I've done. I'm not proud of it in regards to like, oh, I'm the chief training officer. Six years ago, we, there was no titles, there was no departments. And now like the fact of what you and Leif have helped facilitate for us to be able to be a part of and build. That means a lot to me. And to see what Cody's done, like I, here's the deal, if Cody wasn't. The stud that he is, I wouldn't be able to

• 2:49:18Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:49:19JP Dinnell?

  To move up in the organization. And I, and I know that, and I try to reiterate that to Cody. And Cody's annoyingly humble because he's like, no, bro, you know, everything. And I'm like, dude, I did not give you anything other than here's an opportunity. Cody's ran with it. He's made that department better than it was when I was running it. And it's cool to be able to sit back and see what he's doing and, and everything. So I just, I wanted to correct that because it's bothered me the whole time that I made that correction.

• 2:49:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, you, you're not the jackass that's, that's allegedly the chief executive officer jacked up the title when he said it. So there you go. And, you know, I always, you know, when you say to me like, oh, you're indebted to me. And you know what I'm going to say.

• 2:50:05JP Dinnell?

  I already know.

• 2:50:06Jocko Willink?

  You, you, you did more for me than I could have ever asked someone to do. So we're good.

• 2:50:13JP Dinnell?

  Cool.

• 2:50:13Jocko Willink?

  We're square.

• 2:50:14JP Dinnell?

  Check.

• 2:50:17Jocko Willink?

  There you go. That's how you can get in touch with JP. Of course, if you want to get in touch with or connect with Echo Charles and I, we're also on social media.

• 2:50:28Jocko Willink?

  Echo's at Echo Charles. I'm at Jocko Willink. Of course, just watch out for the algorithm because it's strong. It's chat GPT strong. It's going to grab you, grab you by the vocal cords and drag you into the screen. So watch out. I was texting with Jason Gardner the other day. He's like, well, you know, I was like, tell, he is, he hasn't been on chat GPT yet. And he was like, asking me some, he's like, what about this? What about this? And he said, well, what exactly did data does it go off of? And I was like, go ask chat GPT and it will tell you what that it's going off of. He was laughing. But anyways, there you go. That's how you can get in touch with us and thanks for joining us, JP. Always good to have the opportunity to, to enable the opportunity

• 2:51:11Jocko Willink?

  for you to share your lessons with the world. And obviously, thanks, like I said, for everything you did for me, for the teams. And of course, for our country. And, um, yeah, thanks to all the servicemen and women that are out there right now on the front lines defending freedom. It is a sketchy world out there.

• 2:51:37Jocko Willink?

  It's a sketchy world out there and you all are stepping up into that zone of the unknown to protect us and our way of life and our freedom. So, thank you. And thanks also to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, and all first responders. You defend us here at home and we are definitely grateful. And to everyone else out there, just remember this, remember this, as bad as things can get, and believe me, they can get bad, they

• 2:52:13Jocko Willink?

  can get really bad, but as bad as they can get, remember this, they can always get worse. They can always get worse. So, please do me a favor and keep old Mr. Murphy at bay. Be ready for the worst case scenario and you do that by going out there every day and getting after it. And until next time, this is JP and Echo and Jaco out.