S3 Ep255: John O'Keefe: 34 Fairview (Part 2)

In the early morning hours of Saturday, January 29th, 2022, Boston Police officer John O’Keefe was found dead in a snowbank outside a home in Canton, Massachusetts. According to the medical examiner, O’Keefe had died from blunt force trauma and hypothermia. At first it seemed like a tragic accident, maybe a slip on the ice, a fall that ended in death. But as investigators dug deeper, things became far more complicated and Karen Read, O’Keefe’s girlfriend, became the center of the investigation. Evidence that there had been trouble in paradise in the romantic relationship began to surface, but so did other disturbing possibilities. What seemed like a domestic tragedy was quickly clouded by allegations of police corruption and cover-up, and an investigation that many believe was compromised from the start. What if the very people tasked with upholding the law were covering up the truth? Was John O’Keefe’s death a result of an angry lovers rage- or the collateral damage of a police force protecting its own? In this case, the line between justice and corruption becomes confusingly blurred. Evidence disappears, witnesses are silenced, and as the truth slowly rises to the surface, it may reveal a web of lies that’s more dangerous than anyone could have predicted. Was Karen Read the scapegoat in a larger cover-up? And what role did corruption within the police department play in distorting facts. This may not be just a story of love gone wrong, it may in fact turn out to be a story of power, deceit, and the price people will pay to keep the darkest of dark secrets buried. Join us as we delve deep into the case of John O’Keefe and Karen Read, and help us see if we can get closer to the truth. Try our coffee!! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 25% off ALL mattresses and two FREE pillows, OR a FREE bedding bundle with any Luxe or Elite mattress order!2. SKIMS.com - Check out the SKIMS holiday shop to get gifts for everyone on your list, and remember to select our podcast after checkout to let them know we sent you!3. SkyLightFrame.com/Weekly - Get $20 off your next SkyLight Frame!4. DraftKings Casino - Sign up now with code CRIMEWEEKLY and get $100 instantly in Casino Credits with a $10 wager!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:16Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Today, we are diving in to part two of the John O'Keefe Karen Reed case. And dude, this case is crazy. I can't do it. Like, I am so... There was many points where I'm researching and writing where I was like, I don't even know where to put this. Like, there's so much here. There's so much to talk about. This is crazy. Every single time I turn around, something else is unraveling. So I'm very excited to get your take on some of the things we're going to discuss today, especially the red solo cups. And those who know about this case will understand what I mean.

• 0:51Derrick Levasseur?

  That's so funny. Someone DM'd me and said, wait, you know, they started mentioning red solo cups. And I responded to them. And this person's going to be in our comments now. But they were like, oh, wait. And they mentioned some names, too.

• 1:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so I know. I saw a lot of people in the comments saying like, oh, wait till, you know, we get Derek's take on all these butt dials. And yeah, we're going to talk about that soon. Trust me.

• 1:09Derrick Levasseur?

  I think that same person DM'd me because they mentioned all of that.

• 1:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm. So it's gonna, it's, this case is going to take us places. And even I'm still kind of going back and forth, back and forth. So I can't wait to kind of get your take on everything. But before we dive in, what do you have to say to us?

• 1:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving.

• 1:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Congratulations to Shannon, our editor, and her boyfriend, Sam, who recently got engaged. They're a great couple. Shannon's imperative to us on Crime Weekly. And, and you know, she has her own character in Criminal Coffee. We love her. She's been with us for a while. And Sam, we hang out with him at Crime Con. He helps.

• 1:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Some people say we look alike, say we're like brothers.

• 1:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nobody says that, Derek.

• 1:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Literally, everyone says we look alike. The last two times Sam and I have taken photos and posted it, everyone's like, you could be brothers.

• 1:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Shannon, side by side of Derek and Sam, please.

• 2:01Derrick Levasseur?

  You're oblivious to life. Like, that was like the biggest conversation at Crime Con this year.

• 2:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  I am oblivious. It's true. I have no idea what's happening in the world. I just sit and... At my desk and research true crime cases night and day. So.

• 2:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes. So.

• 2:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's where I'm at. But yes, congratulations to them. Great couple. We love them both. We're very happy for them. So are you ready to dive in today?

• 2:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 2:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. So the trial of Karen Reed would begin, as all trials do, with opening statements from both the prosecution and the defense. Now, opening statements are used to outline the key facts and the narrative that each side is going to present to the jury throughout the trial. It's basically a general overview of the case, the parties involved, the evidence that will be presented. Also, you kind of want to make sure as an attorney, whether you're the prosecution's attorney or the defense attorney, that you kind of catch the jury's attention with these opening statements and closing statements. It is your one of two chances throughout this entire trial to address the jury directly. You want to make an impact.

• 3:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  With that being said, and with that in mind, I wanted to start the episode with a quick summary of each side's opening statement. That way, as we go through this episode and the next ones, as we go through the timeline and the evidence, we can keep this in mind. What is the prosecution trying to prove? And the prosecution is one that has the burden of proof, right? So they kind of have a little bit more pressure. And what is the defense trying to prove? Or at least, how is the defense trying to put forth reasonable doubt? Now, for the prosecution's opening statement, the Assistant District Attorney, Adam Lally, he outlined that the state's belief that Karen Reed and John O'Keefe's relationship was deteriorating. John wanted out. And so basically Karen purposely and intentionally hit him with her car that night.

• 3:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Lally outlines certain pieces of evidence that he believes will support this theory.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Some testimony from Chief Joseph Hall. He's in a specialized unit within the state police called HARS for short, but essentially inclusion analysis and reconstruction section within the Massachusetts State Police. His examination of the vehicle, his examination of the scene, his examination of specifically some Toyota texture, because Lexus is essentially owned by Toyota or vice versa. So there is some data that he's able to recover. From that and back the vehicle up based on its known locations and travel and key cycles and essentially opines anticipate to opine that around 12:45 in the morning when the vehicle was in front of the residence on Fairview that for some perceptible period

• 4:35Speaker 02

  of time that vehicle travels over 60 feet in reverse at over approximately 24.2 miles per hour. We hear testimony, as I said, from a number of different troopers as well as from a number of different analysts from different labs, included within that is Ms. Maureen Hartnett, who collected items from the vehicle, defendant's vehicle, including the taillights, sort of housing from that vehicle, pieces of the taillight that were discovered in the front grass, the front street area. There is a specialized team called CERT team. You'll hear from Lieutenant Kevin O'Hara, who has a supervisory role in relation to that. And then later on that day, the 29th, he along with Lieutenant Tully and a number of different

• 5:16Speaker 02

  members from his CERT team were searching for evidence within the mounds of snow in front of that house as the blizzard is still ongoing at this point, through sort of the afternoon hours. Among the items that they locate is a sneaker. When Mr. O'Keefe is transported to the hospital, he's found to only have one sneaker on his feet. They find the other sneaker in that area of the body, they find various pieces of taillight. And as is wont to do, over the course of the following days, temperatures rise, rainstorm that comes in, and the snow melts. Over those successive days, there are additional pieces of taillights that are eventually discovered in that area of the front lawn in the street. Ms. Hartnett also locates a cocktail glass that's located on the bumper or the rare

• 6:00Speaker 02

  area of that scene, and she locates a human hair on the back of that defendant's vehicle as well. Now, the cocktail glass in the bumper, you'll also see surveillance video from the waterfall. And Mr. O'Keefe is observed on that surveillance video essentially walking out of the waterfall with a cocktail glass in his right hand. Same right hand that has minor injuries to it, and the same right hand that's attached to his right arm that has abrasions and lacerations that are observed by the paramedics, that are observed by the doctors at Good Samaritan, and are observed by the medical examiner as well.

• 6:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, so it was a fine opening statement, you know, kind of dry, boring. One might even say, I would. Lally didn't bring a lot of energy to it. He didn't try to really weave a story or paint a picture for the jury necessarily, which I do believe that the best attorneys will do that during opening statements. Once again, you got to catch these people's attention, all right? They're not used to reading police reports. These are laypeople. They're not in law enforcement. They're not in the judicial system. They want you to present the facts in a relatable way. They don't want you to kind of just lay them out like this. He kind of laid out the facts the way one might do in a police report, which then made the defense's opening statement stand out even more than it would normally have.

• 7:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I have to just kind of cut in here and say that Karen Reed, what she did do was hire an extremely good legal team. And one of those attorneys is David Yanetti. He came in hot and he made sure he had the full attention of the jury from his first words. So what I'm going to play you, this is how he starts his opening statement.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Karen Reed was framed.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Her car never struck John O'Keefe. She did not cause his death. And that means that somebody else did. You will learn that it was no accident that John O'Keefe was found dead on the front lawn of 34 Fairview Road in Canton on January 29th of 2022. You will learn that at that address lived a well-known and well-connected law enforcement family in Canton, the Alberts. Because the Alberts were involved and because they had close connections to the investigators in this case.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Karen Reed was framed for a murder she did not commit. From a very early juncture in this case, you will question the Commonwealth's theory of the case. You will question the quality of the Commonwealth's evidence. You will question the veracity of the Commonwealth's witnesses. And you will question their shoddy and biased investigation. A faulty investigation that led to Karen Reed sitting here today. You will learn, in short, that the police did no real investigation of this case. And you will question why.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  You will question why the investigators had such tunnel vision. You will question why they focused solely on Karen Reed. Someone with no ties to the Canton Police Department, as opposed to the well-known and well-connected Albert family of kin. A family that was never treated as suspects by the investigators in this case. Boston Police Officer John O'Keefe was found mortally injured on Brian Albert's front lawn. His body was in full view and almost right below Brian Albert's bedroom window on his front lawn. He was found wearing only one sneaker.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  You'll learn that Brian Albert was a Boston police officer as well. And that he was a trained first responder. Brian Albert was notified that another police officer was injured and unresponsive on his front lawn. And Brian Albert did nothing. His sister-in-law Jennifer McCabe and other civilians were on his property that morning after John O'Keefe's body was found. Police, EMTs, firefighters, police cruisers, an ambulance, fire truck, lights flashing. And first responder Brian Albert never came out of this house.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Equally important to you will be the fact that the lead homicide investigators never went inside the Albert home that year. You'll learn that Brian Albert's brother, Kevin Albert, is a Canton police officer. It was obvious, very early on, that the Canton police should not be investigating the death of a man found on the property of the brother of a Canton police officer. So it was decided, just about from the start, that the Massachusetts State Police should take complete control of this investigation, because the Canton police were conflicted out.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Now, that sounded good at the time, but you'll learn that two major problems arose. First, despite the fact that they obviously had a conflict of interest, the evidence will show that the Canton police still had their hands in this investigation. You will find it astounding, but Canton police officer Kevin Albert, the reason for the conflict of interest in the first place, was continually updated about the status of this investigation while it was going on.

• 12:02Speaker 02

  Second, and equally troubling, is that the lead state detective, state police detective who was assigned to this case, was a man named Michael Proctor. Michael Proctor, you will learn, is one of the many people in Canton with deep ties to the Albert family. Michael Proctor's own mother refers to the Alberts as the Proctor's second family. At Don's sister's wedding, Michael Proctor was in the wedding party with Colin Albert, and he sat at the head table of that wedding with members of the Albert family.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  That's the man who was chosen to lead the investigation into the suspicious death on the property of Brian Albert. That's the man who gave updates to Canton Police Officer Kevin Albert while the state police were supposed to be investigating what had occurred at his brother Brian Albert's house. You'll learn that right from the jump, Michael Proctor predetermined the outcome of this case. Never stepped foot inside the Albert home on January 29th, 2022. Never checked out whether there were any signs of struggle inside that home. He never called for crime scene technicians and other specialists to look for blood or other trace evidence within the home.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  He never asked Brian Albert for permission to go in the home and take a look around. Michael Proctor never applied for a search warrant to go in that home. Instead, he focused immediately and exclusively on Karen Reed, the outsider. You will learn that no one in the Proctor family has ever called the Reed family their second family. No one in the Proctor family had been in a wedding party with anyone from the Reed family. Karen Reed was a convenient outsider. She was most definitely not from Canton.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  So how did Michael Proctor feel about her? How did he treat somebody he was investigating at a point in time when he should have been keeping an open mind and focusing on obtaining all possible evidence so that he didn't miss anything? Well, you will learn that on the very day that John O'Keefe was found dead on Brian Albert's lawn, Michael Proctor was texting with his high school buddies about this supposedly secret investigation, using his personal cellphone.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  He was revealing information about this investigation to his friends, assuming that nobody would ever find out what he was doing and what he was saying. And he was revealing his true thoughts about Karen Reed to his friends. Not what he put in his sanitized police reports. His true feelings. To his friends whom he trusted and in text messages that he never thought would come into the hands of the defense in this case. Lead investigator, Trooper Michael Proctor, right from the start, called Karen Reed names you would reserve only for your worst enemies.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  He told his friends that he hoped that she would kill herself.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  He told his friends that he had seized her cellphone. And you will learn that he knew he shouldn't have been accessing any content on her cellphone because he knew there would likely be attorney-client communications on between Karen and me at that time. He knew that he was supposed to wait for a search warrant or other permission from a judge in order to go through that phone. But you'll learn that he went through the phone anyway, without permission. And you'll know that he did because he told his high school buddies that he was searching her phone for nude photos of Karen Reed. And he was disappointed he hadn't found any yet.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  That is the professional and unbiased investigator who was chosen to lead the investigation into the death of John O'Keefe. You will learn that one of Michael Proctor's high school friends commented to him that with a dead body on the front lawn, the homeowner in this case is surely going to catch a lot of grief. And do you know what Michael Proctor's response to that was?

• 16:47Speaker 02

  One word.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  And he explained why. Michael Proctor assured his buddies that the homeowner would not catch a lot of grief because, quote, "The homeowner's a Boston cop too." End.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  That one sentence, ladies and gentlemen, in Michael Proctor's own words, will explain a lot to you about how this investigation was conducted. You will be able to evaluate whether Trooper Michael Proctor treated Brian Albert and his family differently because of who they are and their relationships between his family and theirs. You will evaluate whether this investigation was on the up and up. You will decide, as a result, how valuable or worthless the prosecution's DNA evidence is or is not, in light of who controlled that evidence. You will learn that Michael Proctor's fingerprints are figuratively all over this case.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  His fingerprints are all over the Commonwealth's evidence.

• 17:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, a lot there. A lot there. And to not be redundant and repeat everything he just said, let's just try to summarize. Michael Proctor, at minimum, to start with, major issues.

• 18:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  You don't even know the half of it, man.

• 18:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Major issues to start with, and this attorney is gonna make a fool out of him. I can see where this is going. I won't weigh in too much about Brian Albert and Kevin Albert. I will say this, to back up the defense attorney, you said his first name's David, correct?

• 18:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  David Yanetti, yes.

• 18:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Valid point. Like, you find this person on a front lawn of a property, you should be speaking to every single person there, and out of an abundance of caution, even if you like the guy that lives inside, you should say, hey, listen, we're gonna do a search warrant, we're gonna dot our i's, cross our t's, because I don't want this to become a thing later. Because there's a world, I don't know any of the story yet, guys. But if they had done that, they can go in there and document nothing out of the ordinary was observed. And I've told you guys before, as detectives, it's not only about finding the inculpatory evidence, it's also about excluding any potential exculpatory evidence. So going in there and saying, yes, there was nothing in there that suggested he couldn't or could be involved.

• 19:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  So do you think a full like forensics thing should have been done at the house? Like it should be considered part of the crime scene? Get a warrant?

• 19:20Derrick Levasseur?

  He was found on the property?

• 19:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, in the yard.

• 19:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Then yes.

• 19:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, right, obviously.

• 19:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely. I mean, he's found on the lawn. I wanted to speak to everyone in that house. We had a case a long time ago. We covered on Crime Weekly News and I don't remember the specifics, so I apologize. But it was like three people found frozen outside. Remember it was like a tailgate thing?

• 19:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Remember that?

• 19:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Did we cover it on Crime? I know I covered it on, on mine, but yeah, they were.

• 19:43Derrick Levasseur?

  There was this Crime Weekly News.

• 19:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they were watching a game or something and then, and then the homeowner went to sleep. And then the, all his three friends were found frozen outside.

• 19:53Derrick Levasseur?

  And what did they do in that case?

• 19:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  They went in the house.

• 19:55Derrick Levasseur?

  They searched the house, right? Because that's where they were last seen. Now, I don't know if you're going to tell me that John was in that house prior that, during that evening or whatever.

• 20:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, that's what the defense and the prosecution cannot seem to agree on.

• 20:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so I'm on the right path. So it, regardless, he's found on the property and, you know, he's got some law enforcement ties. Is it fair to say potentially he was at that home? Did Brian Albert know John O'Keefe?

• 20:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so remember that they had been at the bar the night before.

• 20:25Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right.

• 20:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Brian Albert, yeah, they didn't, they weren't like friends, but they knew each other. And it was like an open invitation, everybody come back to the house. Karen and John were going to come back to the house. Now the people in the house say that they saw Karen's SUV pull up. But John and Karen never came inside and then they saw the SUV pull away.

• 20:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Either way, that's something you learned.

• 20:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Either way.

• 20:46Derrick Levasseur?

  That's something you learned down the road. I would have gone to them and say, hey, we're going to interview everybody who's here. We're going to do a search of the house. Can I get consent or do I have to get a search warrant? We're doing this, I would say this to him. We're doing this to protect you.

• 21:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  So nobody can say we didn't.

• 21:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Because the fact that we, the fact that they didn't, that's why the defense attorney is bringing it up. Because we'll never know now. Was there signs of struggle? Were there any visible injuries or anything that would suggest some type of altercation took place in the house? The fact that Brian didn't come out when everyone else was around, as a former police officer myself, I was always looking out my window. If something went down in front of my house-

• 21:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, he knew, he knew what was happening because-

• 21:26Derrick Levasseur?

  And he just, he just chose not to come out.

• 21:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because he was told, because Jennifer McCabe was there, and we're gonna get into it. She, she's letting him know. Jennifer McCabe goes in the house, she tells him what's going on, he still doesn't come out. That's weird, right?

• 21:39Derrick Levasseur?

  So I, I think the opening argument from the defense, uh, David Yanetti, I'll just say David, uh, did a great job, points, he paints a very clear picture of what he's gonna put out there. I'm interested to see how he connects the dots and basically ties Brian Albert or someone in that home to John O'Keefe's murder, but I'm looking forward to it. I wanna, I wanna hear more.

• 21:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think more importantly, in this scenario, right? Because once again, the defense doesn't have to prove that Karen is innocent.

• 22:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Exactly.

• 22:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  They have to put up reasonable doubt.

• 22:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Something else could be possible.

• 22:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Showing that an investigation was botched-

• 22:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Since day one, can present that reasonable doubt. And showing that Michael Proctor, the lead investigator, was tight, like considered the Alberts, his second family, was very close with them. And then not only that, is texting his friends and saying, no, the homeowner's not gonna come under fire, cuz he's a Boston police officer. That's bad.

• 22:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Not good for him, not good for him. Because now, as he said here, and it, what, it's a brilliant move, but it's a lot of defense attorneys do it. They know that the prosecution's gonna put out maybe some incriminating evidence against Karen. And what they're saying is, hey, guess what, guys? Here's your glasses that I want every jury member to wear. And this glasses is the Michael Proctor is biased glasses. So throw those on, and you can watch and look at everything they're presenting to you, but now you're looking through my filter that I've provided for you, which is, from the start, Michael Proctor already made up his decision.

• 23:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you can't trust anything that this dude found, said, nothing.

• 23:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Because his, as he said figuratively, his fingers are all over everything. So, you know, everything that Brian is involved in, now you have to question. So, whether that's true or not-

• 23:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Everything that Michael-

• 23:20Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm sorry, yes, I apologize. Everything that Michael's involved in, you have to question, which- Here's the reality, without knowing more than you're going to get into more, you've already kind of alluded to it. Michael could have said these things and still conducted a proper investigation. Again, guys, I don't know. But because these things were said, you're shit out of luck now. It doesn't matter what you did, because everything is going to be tarnished. So.

• 23:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, the Michael Proctor situation is going to.

• 23:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Get worse before it gets better?

• 23:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's awful, awful. This person, this person will never get out for, he's, he's done in law enforcement. Okay?

• 23:58Derrick Levasseur?

  I would venture to say, without even knowing this case, just based on those comments, is he even a cop anymore?

• 24:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  The last time I checked, he still was.

• 24:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. Well, you know, I mean, we can, we can look it up as we go.

• 24:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you're gonna see that as he's being.

• 24:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Cause he violated a couple of policies right there with the phone.

• 24:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  With the phone, I mean, and saying he's looking for naked pictures of her. He said he hopes she killed herself, you know? No, I do not believe somebody who's going into this, not looking at the homeowner at all, and not searching the home, and immediately assuming that he knows what happened, and then saying he hopes the person who did it kills herself. And that's not all he said about her. We're gonna get into it. He said horrible things. You cannot run an unbiased investigation. You can't.

• 24:43Derrick Levasseur?

  So friends, friends with a potential person of interest hates the, another person of interest, just in that brief conversation, that opening statement. So, point one goes to the defense as far as opening statements. That's my final takeaway as far as that's concerned.

• 24:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, very much so. We're gonna take our first break. We'll be right back. Okay, we're back. So, what happened outside the Albert home in the early morning hours of January 29th, 2022? We are going to have an episode where we very, very intricately break down the timeline. And this timeline that we want to focus on is really short, like a 15 to 20 minute timeline, but we are not going to do that right now. Basically, where we're going to start off from is Karen and John are invited to go back to the Albert's home, along with a bunch of other people. And although that invitation to go to 34 Fairview for that after-party had been extended

• 25:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  to them, it had kind of been just like blanketly said. So Karen said that they got to 34 Fairview and she wanted John to go in first and just kind of like make sure it was okay that they were there. You know, she kind of felt a little self-conscious about it. So John gets out of the car. She said she watched him walk away, but she did not see him enter the house. She waited a few minutes. He didn't return. Karen says she texted and called a few times. John did not answer those texts or calls. And according to the records, around 12:55 a.m., Karen texted John, quote, "I'm going home," end quote, followed by another text also at 12:55 a.m.

• 26:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  that said, quote, "See you later," end quote. At 1:02 a.m., Karen texted, quote, "Your kids are fucking alone," end quote. And then two minutes later, Karen texted, quote, "I'm back in Mansfield. The kids are home alone," end quote. Now, she's not texting these things while she's sitting outside the Albert's home. According to GPS and phone records, she was back at John's house, John O'Keefe's house, by around 12:45. So in reality, Karen did not go back to the Mansfield house. She was kind of just trying to make him think she was.

• 27:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah. So he would respond.

• 27:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  So he would respond or come home. She said she went back to John's house. She fell asleep on the couch. She did not leave his niece and nephew alone. And actually, the nephew, Patrick, hadn't even been at the house since 8:00 p.m. the previous night. He was at a friend's house sleeping over. However, Karen did leave several voicemails for John that morning. She called him 53 times between 12:30 a.m. and 6:03 a.m. Now, they did play these voicemails during her trial, but we know how audio gets distorted in the courtroom, especially when they're playing phone calls or like video stuff. It's all echoey. I'm gonna play you a little clip in a minute of, of the voicemails, just so you can get an idea

• 27:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  of her tone, of her level of anger, whatever. But the voicemails have been transcripted, so I'm gonna tell you what they say. At 12:37 a.m., Karen left John a voicemail saying, quote, "John, I fucking hate you." At 12:42 a.m., a voicemail was left where a beeping can be heard, as well as the sound of heels clicking on the floor. So it's believed that beeping came from John O'Keefe's garage door being opened as Karen arrived at his home. And then you can hear her, her shoes walking through the garage in his house. Yeah. At 1:02 a.m., another voicemail is left, but it's described as room tone. Basically, you can't hear anything. At 1:11 a.m., Karen left a voicemail

• 28:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  where she said, quote, "Yeah, it's 1:00 in the morning. I'm with your fucking niece and nephew. You fucking pervert. You're a fucking pervert." End quote. At 1:18 a.m., Karen left another voicemail, quote, "John, I'm going home. I cannot babysit your niece. I need to go home. You, you are fucking using me right now. You're fucking another girl." And then she says something that's unintelligible, and it says, "Sleeping next to me. You're a fucking loser. Fuck yourself." End quote. So like I said, I want to be fair. I want to show everyone how Karen sounded, which was very angry while she was leaving these voicemails. We're gonna play a short clip of them being played in court for that context.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  John, I'm going to your fucking kid. That was so little, fucking, like, pervert.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's 1:00 in the morning. I'm with your fucking niece and nephew. You fucking pervert. You're a fucking pervert.

• 29:21Speaker 03

  John, I'm going home. I cannot babysit your niece. I need to go home. You, you are fucking using me right now. Fucking another girl. Keep sleeping next to me. You're a fucking loser. Fuck yourself.

• 29:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, I want to talk about that clip, but I also want to ask just because there's so many guys, I'm following along with you. So and then we're doing this live. I can't go back and pause it and rewind and hear what Stephanie said. So I apologize if you're like, oh, she already said that around what time approximately did they head over to the Albert's home or the walk across the street?

• 29:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  They all kind of left at different times, but on surveillance, and I actually have this information because I have notes.

• 29:59Derrick Levasseur?

  There we go.

• 30:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Days at 12 10 a.m. Karen Reed is seen leaving the waterfall bar and grill on surveillance, and she's with two other women. And I believe these two other women is at least one of them is Jen McCabe, I believe, but I I'm not quite sure right now. But either way, she walks out around 12 10 a.m. And then a minute later, on that same security footage, we can see John O'Keefe leaving the same bar about a minute later. He's still holding a glass from the bar in his hand. So and then they they get together. He meets her at her car and then they leave.

• 30:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so just trying to get a window here, right of how long this could have happened? Because if we're to believe Karen, she goes over there and she didn't feel comfortable going inside. So John goes inside. So approximately based on the times you're giving around 1230, she started making the calls 53 calls, you said, by the way, right? 53?

• 30:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 30:52Derrick Levasseur?

  And we're going to get into that in a second because we're going to call it how we see it the whole time. But 53 calls starts around 1230. So she potentially was sitting outside for approximately 20 minutes, waiting for him to come back out. It should have taken two minutes if he went in there.

• 31:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she would have they believe that they arrived at the Fairview address around like 1220 1221. Okay?

• 31:17Derrick Levasseur?

  So that just is that not like, am I missing something here? Maybe people are screaming at me in the comments, but she started making the voicemails at 1230, right?

• 31:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. So

• 31:27Derrick Levasseur?

  And she was already back home by 1237.

• 31:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was back home by like 1242, when you can hear the garage door opening back at John's house.

• 31:34Derrick Levasseur?

  So 1221, they got there.

• 31:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she probably made the call while she was driving.

• 31:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. So 1237 around the time she leaves 1240 is the time she gets to John's, who doesn't live far away.

• 31:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  1242.

• 31:46Derrick Levasseur?

  42. And so now you're looking at 1221, they get there and by 1237, so 17 minutes.

• 31:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like I said, we're gonna go over this very small window of a timeline in more detail.

• 32:00Derrick Levasseur?

  But this is coming from people who may not know this timeline. That's where I'm trying to represent them and say, listen, just on the surface, talking right now, 17 minutes to go from, they appeared to be kind of lovey dovey in the bar. We saw the video last episode. And then within a couple hours, they're leaving the bar separately, which is the first red flag. Why are they leaving separately? Um, maybe that's a common thing they do. I would expect them to leave together, but according to Karen, they meet back up and they get to the Fairview address around, uh, around 1220. And within 17 minutes, this is transpiring. So, uh, just watch, listening to these, uh, clips and reading the text messages that were sent. We talked about it last episode.

• 32:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  And hearing the voicemails, like what she's saying.

• 32:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Voicemails. I mean, listen, is it a good look? No. Calling 53 times, is that excessive? Absolutely. Uh, it's not a good look. There's a lot that can be taken from it. What I would say is, we all go through shit. We all say things and do things in the heat of the moment. I guarantee you, if we had cameras and we put your phone records and everything on the stand and you'd probably have some things that you'd be embarrassed about too. So I'm not gonna look too deep into it, but when we're talking about it in this context of would Karen be upset enough to wanna kill John? It could be better for her if these weren't out there. We'll just say that. It's not a good.

• 33:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, actually, here's the thing, because the, the defense, I mean, the prosecution is gonna say that when Karen is calling and, and leaving these voicemails, John's already dead. She's already hit him. Okay?

• 33:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 33:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I'm gonna pull a.

• 33:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Leaving them to, to, to create the alibi.

• 33:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm gonna pull a Derek and I'm gonna say, depending on what camp you're in.

• 33:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 33:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  It can go either way. So some say that Karen was trying to create an alibi. She was trying to pretend she thought John was alive because she knew she had killed him. But others, others say, well, if she was gonna pretend this in order to have an alibi, maybe she wouldn't. To have been so mean and aggressive, right? Maybe she wouldn't have been telling him she fucking hates him and

• 34:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 34:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Calling him a pervert and saying he's with somebody. Yeah, like, I'm worried about you. You didn't come out. My, my stomach hurts. I went home. I'm with your niece.

• 34:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 34:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  I just want to make, that's maybe what she would have done if she was trying to create an alibi.

• 34:17Derrick Levasseur?

  I kind of agree just hearing that firsthand. I mean, that's, that's some great next level strategy when you're like, not only am I going to call to set up my alibi, but I'm going to make it look like I could potentially be involved in when they find him.

• 34:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right.

• 34:31Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, doesn't seem like the smartest move, does it?

• 34:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm gonna seem like I really hated this dude.

• 34:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, like, like I have motive to want to kill him.

• 34:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  I was irrationally aggressively and violently angry.

• 34:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Right?

• 34:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. It doesn't seem like the best plan.

• 34:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Doesn't seem like the smartest option.

• 34:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Additionally, a lot of people say what she was saying in the text, like, oh, I'm going home. Your kids are going to be alone. It seemed like she was trying to trick John into coming home.

• 34:55Derrick Levasseur?

  I, that's the, what I take, took away from it.

• 34:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, and, and all of his friends were like, yeah, John would never have wanted, you know, his, his niece and nephew to be home and alone.

• 35:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 35:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  For, for that long, like overnight, that late. So he would have come home if he had seen that.

• 35:10Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I, that's, that's what I took away from it, just from the outside looking in.

• 35:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. So it's kind of like, once again, depending on what camp you're in, depending on where your bias already sways, you're gonna maybe look at it differently.

• 35:22Derrick Levasseur?

  But is it believed by both parties that he's already dead at this point or no?

• 35:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, the prosecution's gonna say that Sherri hit him with her car and he's in the snow dying. And the defense is gonna say John went inside the house and did not come back out. And that's why Karen was mad because she was like, what the hell? Like you, you didn't come out.

• 35:40Derrick Levasseur?

  And that's, that's truly what happened.

• 35:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that's where something happens to him in the house.

• 35:43Derrick Levasseur?

  All right, I'm with you. I'm following you. This is a complicated case. We're gonna, and I do apologize for people who are like, able to rewind it. I'm gonna have questions like this because you have a lot of names, a lot of players, a lot of times, a lot of 53 calls, you know, you have a lot to remember. So I'm writing as fast as I can.

• 36:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so like I said, Karen tells John, "I'm going back to Mansfield. I can't watch your niece." But in fact, she did not go back to Mansfield because she didn't want to leave Kaylee home alone. She, she said she fell asleep on his couch, still dressed. She woke up around 4:30 in the morning, and at that point, she realized John was still not home. The weather had become very bad. Remember, a blizzard was coming in. She was extremely worried. Now, at that point, Karen wanted to call Jennifer McCabe. Remember, Jennifer McCabe is the sister-in-law of Brian Albert's wife.

• 36:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, and possibly one of the people she walked out of the bar with, potentially.

• 36:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she wants to call Jennifer McCabe. She doesn't have John's number. However, Karen knew that John's niece, who was asleep upstairs, did have John's number, so she went to wake her up. Now Kaylee and Patrick would later tell the Norfolk Advocates for Children's Center in Foxborough that Karen spent most nights at their house, and that she and their uncle had started arguing quite a bit. It was probably three to four times a week. Kaylee, the niece, said that a week prior to John's death, he and Karen had been arguing, and Kaylee was sitting on the stairs of the home, and she heard John tell Karen that the relationship had run its course, and it wasn't healthy, but Karen didn't want the relationship to end, and she refused to leave the house. So on the night of January 28th,

• 37:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kaylee said she'd gone to bed around 11:00 PM, but she was woken up by Karen at around 4:30 AM. She said that Karen was screaming, acting frantic, and wanted Kaylee to call Jen McCabe and put her on the phone so that Karen could talk to her. This call to Jen McCabe from Kaylee's phone happened at 4:53 AM.

• 37:36Speaker 04

  She was just screaming, "Jen, you know, Jen, Jen."

• 37:41Speaker 05

  Fairly loudly, is that correct?

• 37:42Speaker 04

  Extremely.

• 37:43Speaker 05

  At some point, does the defendant get on the phone with you?

• 37:47Speaker 04

  She does.

• 37:47Speaker 05

  And what of any conversation you have with her at that?

• 37:51Speaker 04

  She proceeds to scream my name multiple times, and she tells me that John didn't come home, they got into a fight, and that she left him at the waterfall.

• 38:01Speaker 05

  And how do you respond?

• 38:03Speaker 04

  I had just woken up. I was... I was confused. I didn't know what she was talking about. I was trying to, I was like, what, what are you talking about? And then she, you know, told me that they had gotten into a fight and she left him there and now where is he? And she was just kept screaming my name over and over. And so then I remembered that Chris Albert had still been at the bar. So I thought, well, maybe, maybe John walked home with Chris because Chris lives close to the waterfall. I told her that I was gonna call Julie and see if John had ended up with Chris.

• 38:42Speaker 05

  You hang up with her and then what did you do next?

• 38:44Speaker 04

  I called Julie Albert.

• 38:46Speaker 05

  As you were calling Julie, did you have any conversation with your husband Matt around that time?

• 38:51Speaker 04

  Yes. He, you know, had kind of shot up out of bed when Karen had called, well, when Kaylee had called because Karen was screaming. And then he was, what's going on? And I said, well, I'm calling Julie because Karen, they got into a fight and I was trying to explain it to him. And he said, what are you talking about? We saw them outside of your sister's house. And at that point, I hung up.

• 39:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, another example where if you're, depending on what, what camp you're in, right? It seems like she's really laying it on thick if this is all for alibi. Seems a little excessive. And again, another example where based on this depiction of her, she doesn't come off looking good.

• 39:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm mm.

• 39:31Derrick Levasseur?

  At all. Like waking up the niece, calling this woman in the middle of the night screaming, it sounds like a genuine reaction.

• 39:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Probably still intoxicated.

• 39:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Probably still drunk. Absolutely.

• 39:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. And I thought it was interesting because by the time I had watched the trial, and I watched all of the trial, and we're gonna talk about that in a second, but by the time I'd watched the trial, I'd already gotten the timeline down. And I know that Jen McCabe testified or told the police that she saw Karen Reed's SUV outside of the Albert home. But then hours later, she's like, oh, let me see if John left with Chris when they left the waterfall. And it's like, how did you forget just like three hours later that you saw Karen's SUV at the Albert home? And your husband had to remind you that. And it was like three hours later, three, four hours later.

• 40:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Possible. Everybody was drinking pretty heavily. I mean, alcohol is always a bad, a bad supplement when police officers or anybody's trying to get a statement out of someone because your, your memory can, can escape you sometimes. But no, I mean, It just, it just, it sounds to me like Karen's in a real state of anger right now.

• 40:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Everybody said that.

• 40:43Derrick Levasseur?

  And I think that's good for her when we're considering what we're talking about, right? It shows that it's a genuine emotion regardless of how it may look. It doesn't, it's not a great look for her, you know, but there's a lot more at risk here than just looking bad and overreacting. So.

• 41:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Absolutely. So she's completely frantic. She's, you know, she's screaming so loud in the background of the, the phone call that Matt McCabe is woken up just from her screaming in the phone, right? So now, like I said, I, I do want to quickly shout out another YouTube channel because after I watched this whole trial, I went to this other channel called Legal Bites because I wanted to get the perspective of a lawyer on some of the legal aspects. And now I officially love this woman. I highly suggest everybody check her out. She had the same impressions as I did when it came to the prosecution's presentation as well as ADA Adam Lally just being incredibly boring. And multiple times throughout this trial, it really seemed like he didn't even want

• 41:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  to be there. He did not want to be having anything to do with taking part in this trial. He was bored and as a result, he was boring. And she also, um, Legal Bites came up with the same reference that I had when it came to some of Lally's word choices, which brought me back to the DeP Hurd trial when Amber Hurd's attorney kept saying things like, um, she kept saying over and over, what if anything did you hear? What if anything did you say, et cetera? And Adam Lally does this so much, it drove me absolutely crazy and I ended up resenting him, resenting every time he would speak because of this.

• 42:20Speaker 06

  And instead, the prosecution, in my opinion, is putting on a lackluster case. And look, I don't mean to gang up on Assistant DA Adam Lally, but there's nothing in his overall presentation vocally, body language wise, that tells me that he believes in his case. During all of his direct examinations, he actually sounds kind of bored. He's prone to heavy sighs in the middle of a question that seemed Just suggests he doesn't actually want to be there.

• 42:49Speaker 05

  Now, so you arrive there, you see Officer Sarek and people from the fire department, correct? And you've mentioned sort of a mechanical means of CPR. Is there a specific device that's used for that?

• 43:02Speaker 06

  And in fact, I don't get the sense that he wakes up each morning of this trial with any passion or excitement, thinking, "Today is another opportunity to seek justice for John O'Keefe, the victim in this case." And look, you know, the jury might not notice this in the same way that my neurodivergent brain does, but he uses some version of "what if any" so often in his questions that it becomes an outright distraction. Sometimes it's "what if any," sometimes it's "who if any," or "where if any," or "what if anything."

• 43:34Speaker 05

  "What if anything" did you note at that time or at any subsequent time in regard to footwork? What if anything happens with that? What if anything did you observe? What if any involvement did you have with that? What if anything? What if any? What if anything?

• 43:47Speaker 06

  And if you watched the Depp v. Hurd trial in 2022, you're probably familiar with this phrase as a strategy to get around an objection that you're leading the witness on direct examination.

• 43:57Speaker 07

  What if anything had been said about what Mr. Depp did the night before? Objection to the extent it calls for hearsay, Your Honor. All right. Be a hearsay objection. I'll sustain that objection. I'm asking what if anything. That was still solicit hearsay.

• 44:15Speaker 06

  To me, this use comes from a misunderstanding as to what it means to lead a witness, which is basically asking a question that already suggests the answer in it. And here, as was the case with attorney Elaine Brettahoff in Depp v. Hurd, I just think that this is an advocacy crutch that ADA Adam Lally has developed over the years into a habit that's just part of his speaking pattern at this point. The problem is, it's personally driving me nuts already, to the extent that I've actually started keeping a tally as to how many times Adam Lally uses some version of "what if any" in his questions. On day one, he used it 101 times. And on day two, a half-court day in which there was a lot of cross-examination by the

• 45:00Speaker 06

  defense, he said it 66 times. So we are up to a grand total of 167 "what if anys" in this trial already. At the end of day two.

• 45:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so I, I, I felt the same thing. It was, it says, you know, like you watch these trials and it's, they go on for weeks and weeks. I think this one was six or seven weeks and it's like seven hours a day. And it's like, okay, there's not enough words being said as it is. We gotta add some more in. And not only that, but the, the prosecution asked some of the most boring, pointless questions I've ever heard asked or brought up in a trial. And, and it made all of the testimony go on and on. And it made me feel like, cause people do this and it drives me crazy. Like you say, uh, 500 words when five would have sufficed. I think he's doing this because it's like,

• 45:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  he really doesn't have a lot to, to ask with these witnesses and he's sort of just trying to, extend it out for some reason. Like he'll ask, oh, at the waterfall bar and grill, how tall were the, the bar stools? Like how, how tall would you say the bar stools are? It's like ridiculous. Every single paramedic, he asked, how do you go about getting an EMT license? It was absolutely insane. So I, I just, uh, it, it drove me crazy and it feels like either he doesn't know what he's doing, or he's purposely just trying to almost create, um, confusion and, and boredom. I don't know why, but it's awful.

• 46:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Here's what I'll say, and I'll say it really quick, cause she summed it up perfectly. As the prosecutor or as the defense, you're also a storyteller. And it's almost like you hear, oh, I could, like for me personally, I can listen or watch Denzel Washington read a telephone book.

• 46:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Uh, me too.

• 46:51Derrick Levasseur?

  But because of his talent and his ability to have some conviction in that story.

• 46:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  And emotion.

• 46:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Where it's believable.

• 46:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 46:58Derrick Levasseur?

  And I don't know if it's intentional or not, but this guy is very monotone and you're gonna have a jury that's gonna be bored, and not enthused and not engaged with you and therefore missing important facts that you may be trying to convey. And I know we talk about other attorneys that we don't necessarily like, but Jose Baez, but when he tells you something.

• 47:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Duke can spin a tale.

• 47:19Derrick Levasseur?

  And, and when he says it, whether it's true or not, it comes off as if, as if he believes it.

• 47:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're enraptured. Your attention's captured.

• 47:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Even, even the opening statement, to go back to the opening statement, I believe David. I don't know if he's telling, I don't know if he's right.

• 47:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 47:33Derrick Levasseur?

  But he believes what he's saying and that's extremely important.

• 47:38Derrick Levasseur?

  If you want the jury to believe you, you have to believe it.

• 47:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, what if any? Okay, what if any? Now that I've said this, now that you've heard it, you will not be able to un-hear it or stop hearing it. It is gonna haunt your waking and sleeping hours until we're done covering this case, maybe even after what if any, who if any? Oh my god.

• 47:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I also think this guy's like, uh, what was the prosecutor's name again? Lally?

• 48:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Uh, yeah, ADA Adam Lally.

• 48:02Derrick Levasseur?

  The other issue is that he's, he's probably, maybe he's done some profile, high-profile cases, I don't know, but nothing more high-profile than this. And he's putting, he's put under a microscope, so something that, as she had mentioned, becomes just his common way of speaking, wasn't being criticized by millions of people. Like, when we do this podcast, there's things that I say, and people in the comments will be like, "Take a drink every time Derek says it." I don't even realize I'm doing it, but it's, it's, it's become part of my speech pattern and you have to correct it. So I'm sure after the fact, he's heard these criticisms and, and probably was kicking himself in the ass.

• 48:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know. I, I hope he stops, but I don't think he can.

• 48:38Derrick Levasseur?

  The next trial that's publicized, I guarantee you, it will not be as prominent.

• 48:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  He would have to put 100% of his energy and attention into not saying that as many times as he said it. I think it's as natural to him as breathing and oof. So, let's take a, a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 48:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, we're back. So, we're going back to Jen McCabe that morning. She called Julie Albert to see if she knew where John was. Julie didn't pick up, you know, it's like 5 o'clock in the morning. Matt McCabe, uh, Jen's husband was like, "No, Karen could not have left him at the waterfall because we saw them at your sister's house." The sister in this case being Nicole Albert. Now, once again, this is interesting because both Jen and Matt McCabe would tell police that they saw Karen's black Lexus SUV outside of the Albert home after everyone left the waterfall. But no one actually claimed that they saw John or Karen at the house, just that they saw the SUV. And we're gonna get back to this. I promise. So, John's niece Kaylee said that after calling Jen McCabe for Karen, Karen left the house and she told Kaylee to call Mike Camerano to come and pick her up.

• 49:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  That morning, Karen also called, uh, one of John's friends, one of John's close friends since childhood. Her name is Carrie Roberts.

• 49:52Speaker 04

  I answered the phone and she said, "John's dead. Carrie, Carrie, Carrie." And then she hung up.

• 50:03Speaker 06

  And saying those words to you over the phone, how loudly is she saying those words? Very loud. She woke my husband, who was sleeping. Um, then I got out of bed and Kurt said, "What was that?" I said, "I don't know. I don't know. Something's happening." I tried to call her, I think, a couple of times back to be like, "What is going on?" Finally, she called me back again and she said, "Um, I'm afraid John might be dead. He might have gotten hit by a plow. He did not come home last night. I was not supposed to stay in Canton last night and he would never leave Kaylee alone. I think something happened." Then she said she checked Kaylee's phone to see if John had called and I said,

• 50:47Speaker 06

  "Okay, where are you now?" And she said, "I'm driving. Can I come to your house? Will you drive my car?" I don't remember anything from last night. We drank so much, I don't remember anything. And I said, "You need to go home and be with Kaylee. If she's there by herself, um, I'll go look for him," or something of that nature. Because I thought, I said, "You're gonna get a DUI. You were drinking all night last night and you don't remember anything. You shouldn't be driving." And her voice was elevated. She was, she was very frantic. She said, "I'm gonna come to your house. Will you drive my car?" And I said, "Okay."

• 51:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so here's our first acknowledgement that maybe something bad happened and I'm sure, without knowing the dynamic of this, people look at this two different ways. Some people see it as a start of an omission of knowing that something happened to John and maybe setting up an excuse, like, "I don't remember." But, you know, she maybe gave too much here, saying he could have been hit by a plow. Others would say, "This proves that she really doesn't know." And the fact that, again, she's saying these things, which would look bad in hindsight, knowing if she knew what happened, why would she do all of this and make herself a suspect? So, I mean, you could take it, depending on where you, on what camp you're in, last time I'll say it for the entire episode.

• 52:08Derrick Levasseur?

  That is, that is how you could interpret that. It's all open to interpretation.

• 52:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, yes, it is. But there's going to be statements that, that Karen is attributed to making that also fall into question because they never showed up in any official reports. So we're going to get there. But so Karen calls Carrie. She's like, can I come to your house? And then you drive me to find John because I can't drive. Carrie's like, okay. But Karen never arrived to Carrie's house. Carrie believes she sat in her car and waited for about 10 minutes before calling Karen, at which time Karen told Carrie that she had actually driven to Jen McCabe's house. Now Carrie had only met Jen one time previous to this, and she would testify that they weren't friends. They, they weren't close friends.

• 52:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  They just kind of knew each other through John. I think it was one time. Yeah, barely. So Carrie told Karen, okay, you stay there. Stay where you're at. I'm going to drive over to Jen's and we can all get in the same car and go look for John. So Carrie's talking to Karen through her, you know, phone Bluetooth speaker thing in the car as she's driving to Jen's. And as she pulled into Jen's driveway, she was still on the phone with Karen and she could hear the conversation that Jen and Karen were having as they sat in Karen's SUV. So Carrie pulls into the driveway. She pulls behind Karen's SUV. She's still on speakerphone with Karen.

• 53:30Speaker 06

  Karen said that she remembered leaving him at Waterfall. And Jen said, no, you, you, I saw you pull up to my sister's house. And then at some point in the conversation, she said, what about my taillight? What about my taillight? And I looked and there was a piece missing, but it was caked on with snow. You could tell there was a little black hole, but there was snow like caked on it. And it was a blizzard at this point.

• 53:56Speaker 05

  Or the, what you were just testifying about as far as the taillight. When is it that you're making those observations?

• 54:03Speaker 06

  In Jen's driveway.

• 54:05Speaker 05

  And so about how far away from the defendant's car are you the first time that you see or your attention is drawn to this taillight?

• 54:12Speaker 06

  I was parked right behind them in the driveway.

• 54:15Speaker 05

  And can you describe which part of the vehicle we're looking at as far as which, which taillight that you're observing is damaged?

• 54:22Speaker 06

  The right passenger.

• 54:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  So now we have some comments about Karen's back right taillight, so the passenger side taillight. This is going to be very important, and once again, we're going to talk about it in depth, right? Because you heard at the beginning of, of the, the episode, when we were doing the opening statements, ADA Adam Lally says that they found pieces of Karen's taillight at the scene. They found microscopic pieces of Karen's taillight in John's clothing. They also found a hair on Karen's bumper and pieces of glass on Karen's bumper, uh, from the cocktail glass that John was allegedly holding.

• 55:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, my question has always been, how did all of that stuff stay on the bumper as Karen's driving around and then as the, the cars towed from Karen's parents' house to the Canton Police Department? You got a hair, pieces of glass, all of this stuff is staying on the bumper. And the fact of the matter is, they did not find those taillight pieces until after the initial evidence team had swept through and found, um, which we're going to talk about, pieces of the cocktail glass and also, uh, traces of blood in the snow. But they did not find any of these taillight pieces until later.

• 55:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then they continued finding taillight pieces for, for days after, which is quite suspicious.

• 55:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Only, only pushback, or not even pushback, but just alternative I'll give is maybe the snow being so compacted at that time may have encased some of those small microscopic elements within the snow, because as she mentioned-

• 56:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  You wouldn't find any taillight pieces? Not even one? Even though they used a, a leaf blower to, to blow the snow around so they could get to the blood samples? You wouldn't find a single taillight piece?

• 56:14Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I'm talking about the glass on her car, you're saying?

• 56:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh.

• 56:18Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm talking about the glass on her car where the, she described it as being, the snow being kind of caked on. So with the snow and being sticky snow like we get up here in the Northeast, it could be really compacted. Sometimes you gotta scrape it off pretty good. So if you're talking about small shards of glass, there could be a, a world where inside that snow was, was the glass fragments. As far as the, the taillight pieces, I'm, I'm with you. Yeah, that'd be difficult.

• 56:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  So let me ask you this then. Karen Reed hits John outside of the Albert home. That would mean the pieces of the glass were on her bumper. His hair was on her bumper, right? It has not started snowing heavily yet. And then she drives from the Albert home to John's home. That stuff wouldn't be kicked in snow at that point because it wasn't, it wasn't snowing that heavily yet. So wouldn't that stuff have fallen off or blown off at some point during the drive?

• 57:08Derrick Levasseur?

  You would think so. I've had, I've had times where evidence has stayed on a vehicle that you would expect not to be there. I've had a time where I put my coffee cup on top of my, back of my truck and I drive down the road and then realize it. And I, and it's still sitting there and I don't know how that happened. But I would assume the, the drive is very short from what I know from the waterfall to John's house, right? We're talking a short distance.

• 57:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're going from the Albert's home to John's house.

• 57:31Derrick Levasseur?

  And the waterfall was somewhat near there, right?

• 57:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but either way.

• 57:35Derrick Levasseur?

  So how far from John's house to, uh, the Albert's house to John's house?

• 57:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think it was like, uh, seven minutes.

• 57:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, seven minute drive, depending on the speed. It is in the back of the vehicle, so there's, there's kind of like the, the air is going around the car. Listen, I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm just trying to pose another angle where as unlikely as it may seem, they could have quote unquote, got lucky without me knowing everything else where the evidence was able to stay on the car. And then once it was parked, you did say that she parked the car in the driveway, uh, in the, in the garage though, correct?

• 58:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 58:05Derrick Levasseur?

  So that would have, no snow would have gotten on it then. So it would have happened when it went back out to the road and then snow maybe landed on top of it. I will say you wouldn't expect it.

• 58:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, you wouldn't.

• 58:17Derrick Levasseur?

  If, if it's exactly the way it's been described, then law enforcement got lucky at best.

• 58:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, especially because when you're towing the car to the police station later, you're, you're gonna put it on the back and there's things happening. The car's getting lifted.

• 58:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Can I say one more thing that I'm thinking of? I want to make sure I hit it all. I have had a case where it was a hit and run and there was fragments from the victim's vehicle found inside the broken taillight. We actually like paint transfer inside the broken taillight. It was like a chip off the car. So I, I would like to know where the hair and the, the glass fragments were found. Because if it was inside the housing of the light, more likely it wouldn't have fallen out. But that, we'll save that when we get there.

• 59:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I would say, from the defense's perspective, you might say, it's already highly unlikely that these things would remain on the car. And now you add in the whole Michael Proctor aspect.

• 59:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah, that's, yeah, that's a problem. Yeah, yeah, and the skepticism that even I'm approaching it with because of what you've already told me. As a police officer, I'm still weary about what I say, knowing what you've already told me and knowing what I've heard in these clips. So, yeah, if I'm, if I'm doing that, of course, the jury is.

• 59:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. So Jen, Carrie, and Karen all drive back to John's house because Carrie said, you know, maybe he is inside the house and you missed him. Maybe he's passed out somewhere, like he passed out behind, behind the couch or on the floor somewhere. And like, did you check everywhere? Maybe you missed him. So Jen drove Karen's car with Karen in the passenger seat, and then Carrie followed them in her own car. They arrived to John O'Keefe's house, and then Karen once again pointed out her rear taillight to Jen and Carrie.

• 59:59Speaker 06

  Karen did point it out at one point in the driveway. She said, my taillight, look at my taillight. And I looked at it and I said, you told me you don't remember anything from last night. She said, do you, do you think I hit him? Do you think I hit him? And I said, no, I don't think you hit him. I think you probably hit something, but let's just go in the house and look for him.

• 1:00:18Speaker 05

  That sort of interaction that you had of looking at the taillight, when, when did that happen?

• 1:00:23Speaker 06

  I don't know if it was when, well, it obviously wasn't when we got there. It was, must have been when we were leaving to go out to look for him. When you what? I'm sorry. I wasn't sure if it was when we arrived or when we were leaving to go back out and look for him. But now that I've seen the video, it's obviously when we came back out of the house.

• 1:00:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Carrie is saying she didn't know when the taillight was pointed out to her, whether it was when they got there, when they were leaving to go look for John. But then they played surveillance video from John's Ring doorbell camera. And he also had a camera positioned over the garage, which showed the driveway. And she said, oh, I see now that it was when we were leaving.

• 1:00:57Derrick Levasseur?

  That happens. I mean, this happened in 2022, when was the trial? Was last year?

• 1:01:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, this year.

• 1:01:03Derrick Levasseur?

  So, there you go. I mean, to expect her to remember every little detail, it's difficult for someone because you don't know how invaluable that information's going to be two years later. So, something as simple as not remembering when it was on the way in or out, totally understandable.

• 1:01:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So, they go and they look in the house. John's not there. When they realized he wasn't in the house, they decided to go out and look for John. So, they all got into the car again, in the same car. And during this drive, Carrie drove, Jen was in the passenger seat, and Karen was in the backseat. And both Jen and Carrie would testify that Karen was frantic, she was yelling and texting wildly. And on the drive over to the Albert's home, she made some interesting statements, allegedly and according to Jen McCabe and Carrie Roberts.

• 1:01:51Speaker 04

  Karen is in between us, like from the back, kind of pushing up in between Carrie and myself. And she's just screaming, "Carrie! Carrie!" Her name over and over, my name over and over, and repeating certain phrases. Could I have hit him? Did I hit him? Carrie is yelling at her to shut up, to sit back, to buckle up, to look for John.

• 1:02:24Speaker 05

  And while this is going on, what, if anything, are you and Ms. Roberts doing in the front seat of the car?

• 1:02:29Speaker 04

  We're just, she's slowly driving, and I'm just peering out the window, looking for John. I mean, it was a crazy situation. She's screaming, "He didn't come home. Could he be walking home? Where is he?" So, we're just looking out the window, looking for John.

• 1:02:49Speaker 05

  But if anything else, did you see her doing in the backseat while you were going for Meadow's adversary?

• 1:02:55Speaker 04

  I didn't see her doing anything. She just continuously screamed that. And then, as we got by different landmarks, she then started, you know, screaming, asking if John could be at certain people's houses.

• 1:03:08Speaker 05

  Whose houses was she asking if John could be at?

• 1:03:12Speaker 04

  If she could be at Bella's house.

• 1:03:16Speaker 05

  Referring to the directions that you had provided the night before?

• 1:03:20Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 1:03:21Speaker 05

  Bella was a child who was around the age of Haley and your daughter, correct?

• 1:03:25Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:03:26Speaker 05

  And there have been some years in the past dating relationship between Mr. O'Keefe and Bella's mother, correct?

• 1:03:33Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:03:33Speaker 05

  So Ms. Reed is saying that in the car that morning as we're driving over to Fairview?

• 1:03:37Speaker 04

  Yes, she asked, could he have been with Ashley? And I looked at her and said, no, because to me that was a crazy idea. And then Carrie had mentioned, oh, do you think he could have called somebody else that lived on a street over? And she started screaming, who's that? Who's she?

• 1:03:58Derrick Levasseur?

  It's interesting because I was starting to say to myself, man, she keeps bringing up like this theory that maybe she hit him and it's starting to become a little questionable, that she's fixated on this one scenario, which seems very unlikely, that you would accidentally hit someone and not realize it. But then, at the end of the clip, she did say that multiple times now she was playing out other scenarios. Could he be with a girl? You know, could he be somewhere else? So that was more in line with what I would expect. I still think it's interesting that she even thought it was a potential that she had hit John accidentally, because I would-

• 1:04:33Speaker 04

  Allegedly. Allegedly she said those things, right?

• 1:04:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, according to these people, that they're saying it. So just to take them at their word right now, as we're discussing this in real time, for her to come to that conclusion, I don't know. I mean, I've been drunk before, I've never drove home drunk like that, but if I've had damage on my car, would I assume that I hit someone? I don't know. I don't know. I just, I'm trying to stay neutral and look at both sides with everything you've said, and it's hard to do. But I think the fact that she was running through different scenarios with these two people is good for her. And it's just more of the same where we can separate the two things we're talking about. Was Karen acting the way she should be in that moment? It seems like she wasn't. She was very erratic. But does that mean she's a killer? No, there's nothing here.

• 1:05:21Derrick Levasseur?

  In fact, I would suggest the opposite. Her acting like that and not even putting on a show is more indicative of her telling the truth and just being who she is.

• 1:05:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  You heard Jen McCabe mention somebody named Bella. Bella was a young teenager. John had dated Bella's mother, Ashley, in the past. And the night before, when John had called Jen McCabe for directions to the Alberts- She had mentioned Ashley's house as a landmark because Ashley lived nearby the Alberts. Now, I've always wondered if this started a fight in the car.

• 1:05:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's why it made that noise. I was like, oh, yeah, that could start a fight, especially if drinks are involved.

• 1:06:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, maybe Jen's on speakerphone and she's like, oh, yeah, it's Ashley's house.

• 1:06:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Karen's like, are you serious? Like, we're going to a house right down the street from your ex-girlfriend? Like, how often?

• 1:06:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Or why is she bringing it up?

• 1:06:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why is she bringing it up? Yeah, she's trying to piss me off, yeah.

• 1:06:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah, especially drinking. And now, especially starting to learn a little bit about Karen, right? She's an emotional person.

• 1:06:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's kind of jealous. She thinks something's going on. She already thinks.

• 1:06:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't think anybody with a brain is going to sit here and tell me, based on what we do know for sure, just on the voicemails, the 53 calls, that Karen is a emotional person. And for her to fly off the handle over something like that comment, absolutely possible with what we know already.

• 1:06:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I think it drives you crazy a little bit, right? When you're in a relationship and you feel the person pulling away and you're like, the only reason you would be pulling away if it's there's someone else.

• 1:06:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is there someone else and they won't, you know, they won't confirm and you have the suspicion, you know, women do have gut instincts about these things. And so it kind of ups the ante, like now you feel like you're going crazy. And then anything that you hear is a confirmation bias is, is just going to sort of go in the, the column of, oh, I knew there was somebody else. I knew there was something going on.

• 1:07:14Derrick Levasseur?

  I also think the relationship, what you said with the episode one with Aruba, not knowing anything about them, you telling that story was important, especially now because it gives us a little bit of insight into their relationship and how they treated each other in public. And in my opinion, John didn't treat her very well. And so that could also create some insecurity and some skepticism about his, his feelings toward her and what might be the reason why he's acting the way he does, potentially, like you said, another woman.

• 1:07:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that she definitely felt not appreciated. You can hear in the voicemail, she's like, you're fucking using me. You know, there was, there was things that she felt she was providing for him as his partner that he took advantage of and didn't appreciate. Yeah.

• 1:07:56Derrick Levasseur?

  She didn't like it and she was vocal about it.

• 1:07:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, did Jen actually tell John O'Keefe, "Oh, use Ashley's house as a landmark"? We don't know if this was actually said between John and Jen the night before. We only have Jen's word to go on. And it kind of does seem like in this testimony, she's attempting to make Karen Reed look like a crazy jealous person, right? Like, she was like, "Well, why would he be at Ashley's house?" I was like, "That's ridiculous." And it's like, "Come on, you started this a little bit, you know?" So, there might be some sort of narrative that is being spun here in this testimony. So, they're driving to the Albert's house. The three women turned onto Fairview from Chapman Street. And Jen McCabe said that at this time, it's still quite dark, right? It's pretty early, it's still dark.

• 1:08:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's, um, one month did this happen? Isn't it January?

• 1:08:46Derrick Levasseur?

  January.

• 1:08:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so it's dark.

• 1:08:47Derrick Levasseur?

  January, beginning of January. Twenty, oh, actually, the end of January, January 29th.

• 1:08:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. So, it's getting dark at 4:00 PM. It's not getting light until noon. We're kind of headed, we're headed to that part now of our lives. And it's snowing heavily. And the wind's blowing, blowing, blowing, creating poor visibility conditions. Remember, the wind chill, the wind levels were pretty high, which is also another reason of why I'm like, "How the hell did that stuff stay on Karen Reed's bumper? With the wind whipping around?" But anyways, I digress. We'll talk about that later. So, Jen also said that just prior to arriving at 34 Fairview, which was the home of the Albert's, there was a cluster of trees and like a flagpole. And Karen immediately yelled out that she spotted John's body, which confused Jen and Carrie because they claimed that when she said this at that moment,

• 1:09:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  they could not see anything.

• 1:09:37Speaker 04

  We pass, we drive past the, um, flagpole area. And all of a sudden, Karen starts screaming, "There he is, there he is." And she's banging to get out.

• 1:09:50Speaker 05

  Banging on the door in the backseat?

• 1:09:52Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:09:53Speaker 05

  And at the time that she's saying this, um, were you able to see anything outside of the vehicle?

• 1:10:00Speaker 04

  I saw nothing.

• 1:10:02Speaker 05

  And what if anything, when she's banging and kicking the door, banging on the door, what did Ms. Roberts?

• 1:10:07Speaker 04

  Ms. Roberts unlocked the door. Karen got out. Ms. Roberts looked at me and said something like, "She's crazy," or "She's batshit crazy," something like that.

• 1:10:19Speaker 05

  Where is it that she goes?

• 1:10:21Speaker 04

  She just runs.

• 1:10:23Speaker 05

  And runs where?

• 1:10:25Speaker 04

  Straight to John.

• 1:10:27Speaker 05

  And again, when she's running, at this point in time, can you see what she's running toward or where she's going, or anything that she's talking about to you?

• 1:10:35Speaker 04

  I was on the passenger side, so as she, as I got out, she was already at John.

• 1:10:43Speaker 06

  And all of a sudden Karen said, there he is, there he is, let me the F out of this car, and she started kicking the door.

• 1:10:50Speaker 05

  How hard was she kicking?

• 1:10:51Speaker 06

  Um, pretty hard. I mean, she wanted to get out of the car, but it was locked, because once you start driving, the back doors lock. So I looked over and I didn't see anything. And I looked at Jen and I said, she's crazy. And I unlocked the door and I sat back and watched. And she ran over to a mound of snow.

• 1:11:10Speaker 05

  So as you're driving down the road, have you seen anything, as you're driving down, looking at the side of the road, have you seen anything on your side of the vehicle?

• 1:11:18Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:11:19Speaker 05

  And when you say she gets out of the vehicle, is it your side or passenger side where Mr. Cave is?

• 1:11:24Speaker 06

  The driver's side.

• 1:11:25Speaker 05

  So she gets out of the driver's side of the vehicle and the back passenger, correct?

• 1:11:29Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 1:11:29Speaker 05

  And how quickly does she go, sort of from where, from your car to where she ends up?

• 1:11:35Speaker 06

  She ran over to the mound.

• 1:11:37Speaker 05

  And at that point in time, even when she runs over, could you see what she was running over to?

• 1:11:43Speaker 06

  At some point, I realized it was, it was the shape of a body.

• 1:11:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, let's take a quick break, and then we will discuss this. Allegedly, according to Jen and Carrie, Karen sees John's body as they're pulling up, but they could not see anything. It's dark, poor visibility. She seemed to know exactly where he was.

• 1:12:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so I just want to ask you a question, because you keep saying stuff that's making me wonder if we're not supposed to believe Jen and Carrie. Is there something more that's going to, you're going to surprise me with that would suggest they would have a reason to lie?

• 1:12:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, yeah, I mean, the stories have changed multiple times, from the time of the incident, to the time of the grand jury, to the time of the actual trial.

• 1:12:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. So, I will go off. Because I'm here with you now in real time as we're going through it that as I'm listening to this as a jury member, okay. And as a jury member at this point, when Jen is making these statements, it's not good for Karen. It's not good for Karen, just looking at it for what it is. They're both in the front seat. They have a clearer view. They're unable, both of them, to make out John's body. And yet, immediately Karen knows it's John and where he is. Not even like, oh, there's something right there. It's like, no, there's John. And I don't think that's a stretch for anyone without knowing anything else, but just in this moment, for people to put two and two together and say, oh, she knew that was John and that he was right there because

• 1:13:15Derrick Levasseur?

  she was already aware of that information, prior to going out to this location with Carrie and Jen. That's what you would take away from it, or at least that's what's being presented in that way. Now, is that, is that true or not? We're not there yet. A lot can be taken from it, but at minimum, it gives the impression that she knew John was there. But there's even a bigger question. And I think we're going to get into this as we go on. There is a world, something else I always say, where Karen did in fact know he was there, but it still doesn't mean she's a killer. And I'll save that for later, but that's, that's a whole different conversation to have as far as it's not binary where she either intentionally killed him or wasn't there at

• 1:13:58Derrick Levasseur?

  all, and this was some frame job. It could be something in the middle where could it have been an accident, and she was unaware of the significance of what occurred, until much later. So that's, there's a lot, a lot at play.

• 1:14:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, but keep in mind, the prosecution is charging her with murder.

• 1:14:13Derrick Levasseur?

  No, from a judicial standpoint, you're right. She's being charged with first degree murder, correct? So, that's what you're looking for here. And this, this doesn't, this doesn't automatically say that. But it's not a good start. It's not a good look for Karen to be the first one to spot him. And the fact that she was with two other people. Could hurt her or it could help her, but some may view it as, oh, she brought these people with her to be witnesses to her quote unquote finding John, which other people have done in the past who were guilty of murder.

• 1:14:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, and we're going to talk about this later, but the prosecution is going to put forth their theory and their evidence that Karen, earlier that morning, had already driven to 34 Fairview, which is when she had confirmed basically that John's body was there and he was dead, and that's how she knew exactly where he was.

• 1:15:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Interesting, and is that going to be that window where she said, I'm going to come to your house, and then she doesn't?

• 1:15:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, kind of, yeah.

• 1:15:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, I can see where they're going with it. I can see where they're going with it. I'll reserve judgment, but I can see it.

• 1:15:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Jennifer McCabe would later tell the police that when she saw John's body, he was covered with approximately six inches of snow and his phone was underneath his body on the ground. Jennifer said that Karen then yelled at her to Google, how long do you have to be left outside to die from hypothermia? And Jen does Google something. She Googled, hose long to die in the cold. H O S, hose long to die in the cold. This is going to become very important later, so remember that.

• 1:15:45Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know how that could become important. I am looking forward to that.

• 1:15:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, because that Google search was made for the first time at 2:27 a.m.

• 1:15:55Derrick Levasseur?

  By who again?

• 1:15:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Jen McCabe.

• 1:15:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Ah, okay, now I get it.

• 1:16:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I'm going to give you a little spoiler into that whole mess.

• 1:16:03Speaker 04

  She grabbed my hands and she said, Google hypothermia, Google how long it takes to die in the cold. And so I had my phone out and it was cold and my hands were frozen and I have MS and I took my phone out while she was screaming and shaking my arm and I attempted to Google, how long does it take to die in the cold?

• 1:16:29Speaker 07

  That Google search was at 2:27 in the morning. That's when the Google search happened. You'll find out why we know that. Alan Jackson telling Court TV and the other media gaggle as he was leaving the courthouse there during, after her

• 1:16:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Direct examination saying that they have proof that this was done at 2:27. So we expect to hear about it tomorrow. All right, so we are back from that clip.

• 1:16:53Derrick Levasseur?

  So what you were saying, or what you were alluding to, wasn't necessarily what was typed, but when it was typed?

• 1:16:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Both, I guess, right? Because if the prosecution is...

• 1:17:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Shows a sense of urgency?

• 1:17:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, if the, the defense is saying, no, Karen did not hit him and leave him to die in the cold. He went inside the house, somebody, or more than one somebody's, beat him up, and then they put him outside to die in the cold. Maybe somebody in the house at that time would be Googling, how long does it take to die? If you're left in the cold?

• 1:17:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, maybe I'm framing that wrong. So basically, what I was saying is, it's not the, the typo of "hoes." It's more when it was typed.

• 1:17:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:17:31Derrick Levasseur?

  You get what I'm saying?

• 1:17:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:33Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, as far as who typed it?

• 1:17:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's just a, it's a typo, yeah.

• 1:17:35Derrick Levasseur?

  But when you said "hoes," this is going to become a big part. I'm like, what the fu... How could this tie into it? But the...

• 1:17:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hoes long to die?

• 1:17:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you were hiding your little Easter egg of, oh no, by the way, that typo was done at 2:27 a.m. That's the...

• 1:17:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  The Google search was made, allegedly, and, and obviously, the prosecution is going to bring in their witnesses, who are going to be like, no, that's not what happened. She was using an already open webpage. But the FBI, we're going to get into that, the FBI gets in on this case, which they, they don't typically do. And they're the ones that pull that, that extraction of her phone and, and say that the Google search was made at that time. So this Google search is going to come, be very important, and a huge point of contention for the defense and prosecution.

• 1:18:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, I could see why it would. 2:27, not a good time window when you think about him last being seen around 12:30. So, he could have, he could have been inside for a couple hours.

• 1:18:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Prosecution is saying, no, Karen hit him at 12:45, but we've got Jen, allegedly, inside the house, Googling at 2:27 a.m., how long does it take to die in the cold?

• 1:18:43Derrick Levasseur?

  And we know she was at the party. So why would she be searching something like that?

• 1:18:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 1:18:47Derrick Levasseur?

  If that's what actually happened?

• 1:18:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, if that's what actually happened. All right, so Jennifer McCabe, Carrie Robertson, Karen Reed, they find John's body outside of 34 Fairview at around 6 a.m. And at 6:04 a.m., Carrie Robertson places a call to 911. And in the background of this 911 call, you can hear Karen Reed, she's absolutely going ballistic. Now, Officers Seraf, Good, and Malaney of the Canton Police Department were dispatched to the address along with the Canton Fire Department and EMS. Officer Steve Seraf was first on scene, and this is going to become a huge issue because that's not what the Canton Police Department dispatch log claimed. The dispatch log said that Officer Malaney arrived first, Seraf arrived second, and Officer Good arrived third. And basically, the dispatch log makes it look like they all arrived within seven seconds

• 1:19:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  of each other, but that was the, that was the order. Malaney first, Seraf second, Good third. Now, Seraf actually, in reality, got there at 6:10 a.m. Malaney got there at 6:11, and Good didn't even get there until 6:16 a.m. Not only is the dispatch log in the wrong order, but the times are also completely wrong. During the trial, Officer Seraf was asked if everything else in the dispatch log was correct, and they presented to him, and he looks at it, and he's like, "Yep, it all looks great." At which time, it was pointed out to him, and I don't know why these witnesses don't do a better job, because when the defense is cross-examining you, and the defense started Officer Seraf's cross-examination, and they were like, "Hey, is there anything you want

• 1:20:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  to change from your statement yesterday?" And he was like, "Nope. I said it, I mean it, let's go."

• 1:20:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I've had that happen to me, too. That's a pretty common tactic on narcotics, where they'll, they try to get you nervous beforehand. I've had that happen.

• 1:20:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, they're getting nervous because they have something that they're about to follow it up with.

• 1:20:34Derrick Levasseur?

  They do, but what I'm saying is, they're always going to say, "No, I don't," because sometimes it's a bluff.

• 1:20:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, he's like, "Is everything else on the dispatch log accurate?" Seraf looks at it, he's like, "Yep, perfect, it's great." And then it's pointed out to him by the defense that the address on the log actually said 32 Fairview Road. And on top of that, Seraf had testified under oath in front of the grand jury that he'd responded to 35 Fairview Road. And in Officer Good's report, he also wrote that they had responded to 32 Fairview Road. Obviously, we know the correct address and the actual location that law enforcement responded to that morning was 34 Fairview Road. Now, the defense is going to suggest that this was an active attempt to mask Brian Albert's address, to not have it in any public documents. But Seraf said, "No, these are all just mistakes."

• 1:21:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  And the defense is like, "Okay, you testifying in front of the grand jury, the incorrect address was a mistake?" He's like, "Yep." And he's like, "Y'all writing this wrong in every report, that's a mistake?" He's like, "Yep, all mistakes. That's it." Which, you know, given the fact that now we have all of these things piling up is going to be harder to believe. Steve Seraph also testified that when he was on scene, Karen Reed made a statement to him. She said, quote, "It's my fault. I hit him," end quote. However, in Seraph's incident report, he makes no mention of this statement. In the incident report, Officer Steve Seraph said that Karen Reed continued making the same statement

• 1:22:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  over and over again, but that statement was, "Is he dead?" Not, "I hit him. It's my fault." The day after this, on January 30th, Seraph was interviewed by State Police Detective Michael Proctor, and once again, Seraph claimed that Karen Reed's statements at the scene were simply her continually stating, "Is he dead?" He never says in his own report, or to Michael Proctor, who's the lead investigator, that Karen said, "It's my fault. I hit him." He actually never says that until he's testifying.

• 1:22:36Speaker 07

  So in April of 2022, for the first time, you attributed the phrase, "This is my fault. I can't believe this happened," to my client, correct? That's correct. But nowhere in your official report did you say that? That's correct. And nowhere in your interview with Mr. Proctor the next day did you say that? That's correct. You think that was a pretty important omission on your part? It was an oversight. An oversight? Yes, sir. That a woman whom you made contact with, standing over the body of a fallen police officer, said to you, "This is my fault." Dismissed that one?

• 1:23:18Speaker 07

  Yes, yes, I missed it. I didn't write it down.

• 1:23:23Derrick Levasseur?

  He's kind of flippant and dismissive here, which is not a good look. We always talk about perception and how you're coming off to a jury. I'll be the first to tell you, I've definitely messed up dates and addresses, and sometimes it'll be coming to question at court because my partner would write something different down, and we have to just come out and say, "Yeah, I screwed up. I messed up. It wasn't..." It wasn't accurate. It was, you know, it was a different address or whatever. But as you mentioned before, you know, before that clip, with everything else that we have and Proctor and all these different connections, it does raise a lot of eyebrows. And when you're painting a narrative that this involves a coordinated effort amongst police officers and you have a mishap like this, knowing who that address belongs to, I see where you're coming from.

• 1:24:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  But they're not questioning him about the mishap with the address at this point. They're questioning him about Karen Reed,

• 1:24:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:24:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Standing over the body of her dead boyfriend and saying, it's my fault. I hit him. If something like that was said to you at the scene of a crime,

• 1:24:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Without it, that would be in there.

• 1:24:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Do you think it would have made it into your report?

• 1:24:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, 1,000%. No doubt at all. It's self-incrimination. I mean, you're gonna have that in there, obviously.

• 1:24:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello. Exactly. The fact that it was not in his report and that he did not say it to Michael Proctor the next day, and it doesn't even come out until he's sitting in front of a jury.

• 1:24:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, it's a problem.

• 1:24:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's an issue.

• 1:24:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's a problem. And it kind of, at this point, do you even believe it? Because it's so late in the game, you can't.

• 1:24:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I'm sorry, at this point, when you're sitting there and you're questioned with this and you're asked, oh, how did this happen? And he shrugs and he's like, hmm, it's an oversight. That's a big ass oversight, my friend.

• 1:25:00Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a, it's a confession.

• 1:25:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello?

• 1:25:03Derrick Levasseur?

  So the one thing you omitted from your report is the confession.

• 1:25:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Arguably the most important thing.

• 1:25:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Not even arguably, the, the most important thing. So that's where I was going with that. Look, I know you're passionate about this part, but yes, that's what I was gonna say. The address, I can see the, the omission of this statement, if it did happen, is unacceptable. And I have never seen something like that in my personal experience or um, through, through one of the guys that I was supervised or was writing their reports and I would review it. I don't think that's something you would miss.

• 1:25:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Does not look good, man. Does not look good. Okay. Going back to the initial law enforcement response to John O'Keefe's body. Steve Sarath recalled pulling up to the address. He said that as he approached the address, he saw three females waving at him from the front yard. He said that if you were looking At the house from the street, the three women were in the left corner of the property near a flagpole and a fire hydrant. He said that John O'Keefe was on the ground. Steve Seraph said he had a light dusting of snow on his chest and that two women were performing CPR on him. Now, the prosecution would tell the jury that it was around 12:30 a.m. when John O'Keefe's body ended up where it was found. And the defense claimed that he would have ended up there a few hours later after he'd gone inside the house for a period of time. So for Steve Seraph to say there was only a light dusting of snow on John's body, that

• 1:26:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  might have suggested that he had been in that position for a shorter time, since the snow had started around like 10:30, you know, pushing to 11. But as these blizzards start, they start pretty lightly, they pick up speed throughout the night. So if he only had a light dusting of snow on him, then that would kind of support the defense's claim of he hadn't been laying there in the yard for that long.

• 1:26:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  But Jen McCabe says he had six inches of snow on him. So once again.

• 1:26:51Derrick Levasseur?

  The big difference, dusting versus six inches?

• 1:26:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, yeah. And although Steve Seraph said he observed that John was not moving or breathing and he was cold to the touch, he went to his patrol vehicle to retrieve his AED device, which is a defibrillator. Now, I also want to mention that it is shown on Seraph and Good's dash cam footage that Jennifer McCabe, at some point while after they showed up, she entered the Albert's house. During the trial, Officer Seraph is questioned about this. He's asked by the defense, why a crime scene should be secured and why witnesses should be kept separate? And Seraph said, well, that's so they can't collaborate and get their stories straight. And so the defense was like, yeah, so why would you allow Jennifer McCabe to walk away

• 1:27:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  from a dead body in the yard and enter the house to make contact with the other individuals? Do you think that was appropriate? And Seraph was like, nah, probably not, probably not. And he's like, but nobody stopped her. You guys allowed her to do that. So now she can go in the Albert house and be like, guys, you know, not saying that this is what happened, but if you're the defense team, you're going to put forward a theory.

• 1:27:57Derrick Levasseur?

  It opens up this scenario. It makes it possible.

• 1:28:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  As she went in and she's like, okay, guys, John's dad, like, the police are there, you know, we're going to say Karen said this, we're going to stick to this story.

• 1:28:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, Brian, you stay in the house.

• 1:28:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Brian, you stay in the house. Dude never does come out, does he? So interesting.

• 1:28:13Derrick Levasseur?

  No, the fact that at minimum, this is police incompetence creates opportunities like this for the defense. Now, I'm not even saying it's an opportunity. It could be exactly what happened. But just by not doing your job appropriately and not, not treating every investigation regard, you know, as if it's a serious crime in hindsight can come back and really bite you in the ass.

• 1:28:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:36Derrick Levasseur?

  And make you look like an idiot.

• 1:28:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it's going to in court, even if you have a guilty person have an opportunity that that person walks because you didn't do your job properly.

• 1:28:46Derrick Levasseur?

  100%. That's the best way to say it. We're not saying Karen's guilty, but that has happened in other cases where there's police misconduct. And because of their incompetence or their ineptness, it leads to a not guilty verdict. Rightfully so, because the police didn't do their job. If you don't do your job, the defense will exploit that.

• 1:29:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  But also let's be honest, these guys are veterans of the police department. They've been in there 10, 15, 20, 25 years.

• 1:29:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, do I got stories for you?

• 1:29:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  But they all know better. The fact that.

• 1:29:14Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm gonna be honest with you. No, they, not they all don't. I can tell you, she struck a nerve there. We had, I had some veterans on my job, morons.

• 1:29:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Are they morons or are they lazy?

• 1:29:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, they're, they're a combination. I mean, they're showing up, their shirts are hanging out. They should not even be on the job anymore. And it's just a, maybe they didn't start off that way, but I don't want them anywhere near me because they're, they're idiots. And that I can promise you, every police officer who watches the show, you're lying to yourself if you say you don't have that guy on your job where you're like.

• 1:29:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  One guy maybe.

• 1:29:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  But everybody.

• 1:29:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah. I mean.

• 1:29:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Everybody, or is it more likely that because this was Brian Albert's house, they handled things differently than they normally would?

• 1:30:02Derrick Levasseur?

  It's also possible, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:30:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and let me ask you another question because I know you don't live in Massachusetts, but you're familiar with law enforcement there. We've got Michael Proctor. We haven't talked about too much, but he's going to be the lead investigator.

• 1:30:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, he's with MS, he's with the MSP, yep.

• 1:30:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's a Massachusetts State Police detective. That's a pretty coveted position.

• 1:30:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Mass State Police is, is, is, well, before the Karen Reed thing, I mean, they were very highly regarded, one of the best state police departments in the country.

• 1:30:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Probably have to know your shit to be on there, right?

• 1:30:30Derrick Levasseur?

  State police in general is supposed to be the cream of the crop in every state, including Rhode Island. You know, they're, they're the best of the best.

• 1:30:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  So arguably, you probably wouldn't say that Michael Proctor or any Massachusetts State Police detective would be one of those people that just was an idiot and didn't know their shit. Cause how would you get that position?

• 1:30:47Derrick Levasseur?

  No, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta earn your stripes. Yeah.

• 1:30:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  You do. Alright, so now Canton Fire and the EMS arrive. They take over resuscitative efforts on John. Lead paramedic Anthony Flamati would testify about John's injury. He said that John had a low body temperature that would put him in the extreme hypothermia range. He said John did not appear to be dressed for the weather, right? John had cuts to his right arm. He had a distended abdomen that didn't appear to have external signs of trauma. Flamati also mentioned that John's pupils were dilated about four millimeters. They were non-reactive and there was dried blood in several places on his body. Flamati said he tried to get some info from Karen so that he could figure out how to treat John. Basically like, hey, do you know what happened here? That way he, he knew what kind of efforts

• 1:31:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  to put in. And he said the only response he got from her was the repeated statement of, "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him." However, on cross-examination, Alan Jackson, one of Karen's defense attorneys, once again called into question how much we can trust Flamati's testimony, since he had not included Karen making this statement in his initial report. This is starting to become a pattern. Not only did he not include this in his initial report, but when he transferred John to the care of the hospital staff, he didn't tell them either. Which, you know, if Karen is saying, "I hit him, I hit him," you'd think that Flamati would follow this up. With some clarifying questions like you hit him how you hit him with a car?

• 1:32:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  You got in an argument last night, you hit him with your fist.

• 1:32:18Derrick Levasseur?

  You hit him with a brick.

• 1:32:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  How did you hit him?

• 1:32:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, like, what do we, how do we treat him?

• 1:32:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  He does not ask those follow up questions. He does not put her statements in his report. And when he brings John to the hospital, you know, since he claims he was asking these questions of Karen so that he could figure out how to treat John's wounds, he doesn't say anything to the hospital staff either allegedly.

• 1:32:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, like, hey, he was potentially hit by a car.

• 1:32:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 1:32:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Something worth noting.

• 1:32:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Something worth noting. Now, during his testimony, Flamati said that he did tell them, but that documentation for EMTs ends at transfer of patient care. According to his memory, he did remember relaying that information to the doctors and nurses, but we're going to see in his cross examination, maybe that's not, that's not so true.

• 1:33:04Speaker 07

  Testified at the grand jury that you wanted, once you got to the hospital, you wanted to be as quote unquote, helpful as possible when you handed over the patient, correct?

• 1:33:13Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 1:33:14Speaker 07

  You said, said you actually stayed at Good Samaritan for an additional 10 to 20 minutes, which is your habit in cases like this, because you wanted to be quote unquote, an asset to the medical intervention team, correct?

• 1:33:24Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 1:33:25Speaker 07

  That team includes the doctors and nurses that were trying to provide life-saving services to Mr. O'Keefe.

• 1:33:32Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 1:33:33Speaker 07

  But you never relayed to a single doctor or a single nurse, a single word about a woman who said, I hit him, did you?

• 1:33:43Speaker 05

  Documentation for us ends at transfer of patient care. As far as my memory, I do remember relaying that information to the doctors and nurses.

• 1:33:56Speaker 07

  You do?

• 1:33:57Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:33:58Speaker 07

  Have you ever testified about that, ever?

• 1:34:01Speaker 05

  Never.

• 1:34:02Speaker 07

  Previous to this?

• 1:34:03Speaker 05

  Never been asked about that.

• 1:34:04Speaker 07

  Oh, nobody ever asked you, so you didn't tell anybody?

• 1:34:06Speaker 05

  In the court setting, no.

• 1:34:08Speaker 07

  Testified in front of a grand jury, didn't you?

• 1:34:11Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:34:12Speaker 07

  Mr. Lally asked you a bunch of questions.

• 1:34:14Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:34:15Speaker 07

  During the course of that conversation, it was under oath, did you ever disclose that you told the doctors and the nurses that you heard a woman say, I hit him?

• 1:34:24Speaker 05

  I recall telling the doctors and nurses that there is a question of.

• 1:34:29Speaker 07

  That the patient was hit by a vehicle or we don't know is what I directly said to the doctors and nurses. You directly told the doctors and nurses that there was a question about whether or not he was hit by a vehicle, right? Yes. Have you ever said that in any context, either to the police or in a grand jury before today? I don't recall. You were asked a bunch of questions yesterday, the day before yesterday and this morning by Mr. Lawley. Yes. Did you say it on your direct examination? I wasn't asked that question. Ah, so since Mr. Lawley didn't ask you, you just left it out that you told the

• 1:35:14Speaker 07

  doctors, the medical professionals, that in fact you described that this patient was likely hit by a car. Objection, Your Honor.

• 1:35:23Speaker 05

  Sustained.

• 1:35:24Speaker 07

  You wrote a report as well, correct? Yes. We've talked a little bit about that report. There's an area in the report for a narrative. Yes. About your observations, your experiences with this patient, correct? Correct. Your job as the lead paramedic is to be as detailed as possible, correct? Correct. You want to provide and impart the most detail you possibly can about an incident to assist in medical intervention, correct? Correct. Take a look at page three of five of your report. Yes. You see that narrative area? I do.

• 1:36:05Speaker 07

  Can you point to that portion of your report where you indicate that my client said the words, "I hit him"? It doesn't say that. Can you point to your report, the portion of your report where you indicate that you told the doctors and nurses that she said, "I hit him"? It doesn't say that. Can you point to that portion of your report where you indicate that your concern for the patient was that he had been hit by a car? It doesn't say that. You indicated on direct examination that you were quote-unquote "looking for anything" that we could pass on to the emergency room that would assist. Yes.

• 1:36:49Speaker 07

  It might have been an assistance to the emergency room personnel to indicate that you believe this person had been hit by a car?

• 1:36:56Speaker 05

  Objection.

• 1:36:57Speaker 04

  Sustained.

• 1:36:58Speaker 07

  Do you believe that that would have been an important piece of information to pass on to the emergency room assistants?

• 1:37:05Speaker 05

  Objection.

• 1:37:06Speaker 04

  I'll let him have that.

• 1:37:08Speaker 05

  It would have been important, yes.

• 1:37:09Speaker 07

  And it's nowhere in your reports, correct?

• 1:37:12Speaker 05

  It's not in the reports, no.

• 1:37:14Speaker 07

  You didn't tell that to the police when you were interviewed eight days later?

• 1:37:17Speaker 05

  I was not asked about how or what I was...

• 1:37:19Speaker 07

  My question is, did you tell the police eight days later, or nine days later when you were interviewed?

• 1:37:27Speaker 07

  And you didn't tell the grand jury that, correct?

• 1:37:30Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:37:30Speaker 07

  And you didn't mention that on direct examination in front of these jurors, did you?

• 1:37:34Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, you're not gonna like it, but, I mean, listen, to me, being in that position, I feel like there's a real strong possibility this guy could be telling the truth, but the defense is focusing on a specific angle. So, we write a report, and our reports as police officers are for court purposes a lot of the times. EMTs, my brother's a firefighter, their reports are after the fact where they're writing those reports, and normally those reports are internal reports that are there to document your, what you did on that call. And so, if he's saying in one breath, "I told the doctors and nurses when I got there", but also saying, "I didn't write it in the report," they're two different things.

• 1:38:17Derrick Levasseur?

  He relayed, the lawyer asked him at one point, "Would you think that information would be important for the people at the hospital who are assisting him?" He should have said, "Yeah, that's why I told them." But instead, he just answered the question directly and said, "No, it's not in the narrative." My assumption is that that narrative is the internal report that's written on their computers in the back of the bus, or the back of the rescue truck, you would call it, right? That's what my, my observation of that was, and it's also possible he's lying, right? It's the, that's where we're going with it, but I think there's a world that the defense attorney was driving home the fact that he had never mentioned it before, and in that vein, it is a problem because that is something that you should bring up. If you know somebody's gonna be questioning you, even if it's direct, when you're getting

• 1:38:59Derrick Levasseur?

  briefed at the beginning, that might be something that was worth mentioning to Lally, like, "Hey, you may want to ask me about this because this is something that I heard." And I would also say... I'm wondering if the doctors or nurses were interviewed or put on the stand at this trial because you could easily find out who was working that night and that that EMT would be able to go back and say, these are the people that I told to see if he's lying or not.

• 1:39:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so he doesn't write it in the narrative section of the report. Okay. He doesn't tell it to lead investigator, Michael Proctor, when he's interviewed a week later. So this is a different thing now. This is not your report anymore. Now you're being interviewed as a potential witness. Don't you think that would have come up then?

• 1:39:43Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. It should have it should have came up. But this guy also seems like a dumbass, if I'm being honest.

• 1:39:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I think he seems like he's in the spotlight and he doesn't want to say anything that's going to catch him up. I think that's what he seems like to me. He's being very careful. And then you testify in front of the grand jury. You do not bring it up. He says, well, I wasn't asked. How the hell could you be asked about it? When you didn't tell anybody about it?

• 1:40:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, he's got he's got to be briefed on it. But I mean, it's one of those. I see what the defense is doing here. I'm just going to keep it 100%. It's the angle you're going with that, you know, this is something, but I would push back and say if Michael Proctor is in on all of it, that would be the time where Michael Proctor would give a wink and a nod and say, you heard her say I hit her, I hit him, right? And so that kind of contradicts the whole, the whole theory of this is like an inside thing. They're all in on it. I truthfully am listening to that statement and the defense is right. The way they're pushing back on them, everything they're saying.

• 1:40:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, because by that time, nobody had really, it wasn't in anybody's report. This could have been a narrative that was created later that then everybody who was involved was asked to sort of fall in line with.

• 1:40:53Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm acknowledging that. But I'm also giving the other side where it's, like I just said, the question I would have for you and everybody else, this guy is now saying, I told people at the hospital that she said I hit him with a car. Very easily. Now, in hindsight, they can't do this right now because they're in the middle of a trial. But I would think at that point. Prosecutors would have went to the, to the hospital and said, who was working that night? And who did you tell? Because that's critical. Now, if you have doctors and nurses corroborating your statement, that gets, makes it more compelling.

• 1:41:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe the prosecutors did do that and there was nobody, and there was nobody to corroborate their statement.

• 1:41:33Derrick Levasseur?

  I can tell you who didn't do it.

• 1:41:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  The defense?

• 1:41:35Derrick Levasseur?

  You got it.

• 1:41:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but I mean, why would they? Right?

• 1:41:38Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no.

• 1:41:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  The burden of proof is not on them.

• 1:41:41Derrick Levasseur?

  But I'm not a lawyer. I'm just telling, I'm looking for the truth.

• 1:41:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I, I actually am glad you said that because the prosecution could have easily done that to support his statement. So that I, they either didn't, which why the hell wouldn't you? Or B, they did, could find nobody to corroborate his statement and they were just hoping that it didn't get brought up.

• 1:42:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, or I don't know. I don't even know how it works. Could they bring it in after with discovery already been, being presented? Could they go back and add witnesses? I don't know.

• 1:42:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know. I guess he should have brought it up during the grand jury or some time before.

• 1:42:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, I keep saying it, at minimum, it's just a stupidity.

• 1:42:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  I still feel like as the prosecution, even if this, this wasn't an issue, you still would have wanted to question the medical staff that were on, on, you know, on a, on a shift.

• 1:42:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, on shift.

• 1:42:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  When John came in, right?

• 1:42:32Derrick Levasseur?

  And what did the MMT say? Usually they give you a brief verbal synopsis. Hey, listen, just brought one in. That, you know, the doctors in the emergency room, they're not looking at a report. They're going, what happened? What do we have? And you know, that's the EMT's job to relay that information.

• 1:42:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right.

• 1:42:47Derrick Levasseur?

  So clearly he didn't do that.

• 1:42:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Another paramedic on the scene, Matthew Kelly, he admitted he had not heard Karen utter the statement, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. Well, on the scene, even though he and the other paramedics were all working on John, they were close together at the scene. He just heard her asking like, is John dead? John's dead. What's going on? You know, she was frantic. Let's take our last break. We'll be right back.

• 1:43:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  So now we have Canton firefighter, EMT Katie McLaughlin. And she would later be interviewed by Massachusetts State Troopers Proctor and Bukanek. And she said that she had seen trauma to John's face and eye area, as well as vomit in his mouth. She also claimed that when she asked Karen Reed if Karen knew how John had gotten injured, Karen looked at her friends and said, "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him." Now, this claim and testimony would later be called into question due to Katie McLaughlin's relationship with Kaitlyn Albert, the daughter of Brian Albert, whose home John was found dead in front of.

• 1:43:51Speaker 07

  Ms. McLaughlin, who's Kaitlyn Albert?

• 1:43:55Speaker 06

  Um, I went to high school with somebody named Kaitlyn Albert.

• 1:44:01Speaker 07

  Somebody named Kaitlyn Albert?

• 1:44:04Speaker 06

  I went to high school with somebody named Kaitlyn Albert.

• 1:44:08Speaker 07

  So do you know Kaitlyn Albert?

• 1:44:10Speaker 06

  I do.

• 1:44:11Speaker 07

  Friends with Kaitlyn Albert?

• 1:44:14Speaker 06

  Um, I would say more acquaintances, not close friends.

• 1:44:21Speaker 07

  How do you describe acquaintance?

• 1:44:23Speaker 06

  I would say that we have mutual friends, so we might see each other occasionally because of mutual friends, but we don't, um, we don't have a one-on-one friendship or hang out regularly.

• 1:44:43Speaker 07

  Who's her dad?

• 1:44:46Speaker 06

  I don't know.

• 1:44:48Speaker 05

  Objection.

• 1:44:49Speaker 07

  Do you know who her family is?

• 1:44:53Speaker 05

  Objection. Sustained.

• 1:44:56Speaker 07

  Maybe we approach them.

• 1:44:57Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:44:58Speaker 02

  Since Katie McLaughlin testified on Thursday and Friday, we received a deluge of photographs that put her with Kaitlyn Albert on many different occasions after they graduated high school. We received information from their high school yearbook that they were more than just acquaintances in high school, they were teammates on the track team. And even after I sent that email with the photographs that I attached to it, late last night, we received another photo where Katie McLaughlin-

• 1:45:39Speaker 02

  and Caitlin Albert are standing next to each other in a photo at a baby shower in June of 2021, about eight months before John O'Keefe's death. It's very clear to us that Katie McLaughlin perjured herself. And I wanted to discuss the issue of the admissibility of not only the photographs that we're now providing that we just received over the weekend, but I also want to resurrect the admissibility of H, I, J, and K for identification. And I think a discussion of this, Your Honor, needs to start with what court orders are currently in place.

• 1:46:23Speaker 02

  The leading case with regard to the provision of reciprocal discovery, when the defense is offered-

• 1:46:31Speaker 06

  So you want to get back to Rule 14, the Rule 14 issue?

• 1:46:35Speaker 02

  It is a Rule 14 issue.

• 1:46:37Speaker 06

  Okay. So, hold on one second. So, on top of that, we can discuss this later. I'd like to get the trial started.

• 1:46:43Speaker 02

  That's fine, Your Honor. We just, my belief, my strong belief, is that we need to determine this today. And the reason is that Caitlin Albert is coming up as a witness for the Commonwealth. She faces the same areas of cross-examination that Katie McLaughlin faced, and these photos are relevant to her cross-examination.

• 1:47:05Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:47:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, first of all, this judge, Beverly Canone, I've got issues with her too, because she sustains objections from the prosecution that she really shouldn't. Like, when Katie McLaughlin was asked, "Do you know who Caitlin Albert's family is?", and the prosecution's like, "Objection!", and the judge is like, "Sustained", why? Why? You asked her a valid question. I wanted to hear the answer to that. But Katie claimed she didn't know who Caitlin's family was. This is a lie. They went to high school together. They were on the track team together. Eight months before John O'Keefe died, they were at a baby shower together. And even from the beginning of Katie McLaughlin's testimony, when he's like, "Who's Caitlin Albert?", and she's like, "I went to school with a Caitlin Albert", like, girl, you know exactly what's hap- you know what he's asking. Why are you being so elusive?

• 1:47:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Y'all are looking so suspicious that if you're not- Guilty of anything, you're certainly doing a good job of making it seem like you are.

• 1:47:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I would have just owned it. I don't know why she didn't just own it.

• 1:47:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, because she doesn't.

• 1:48:01Derrick Levasseur?

  The small community.

• 1:48:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because she doesn't want to show that there is an actual conflict of interest.

• 1:48:07Derrick Levasseur?

  To your point, by trying to pretend like you, I know a Katie McLaughlin, I know a Katie Albert, that's a problem. That's that you should have just came right out and said it. Yeah, I know who that is. And then that's more believable.

• 1:48:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  So here's another thing that I just found out this morning, actually, and, and once again, this is my research and, and what I'm figuring out, it's constantly evolving. So apparently, that night, the night before, at the Albert's house, Brian's son, Brian Albert Jr., was celebrating his 23rd birthday. And there was a bunch of his friends there, and one of the girls who was in the house that night was the daughter of the fire chief. Now, I don't know which girl it is. I've got to look more into it, and I have to even make sure it's true, because this is just what I found out this morning. But Katie McLaughlin was an EMT with the Canton Fire Department. The daughter of the, the fire chief is inside the house. This is all a very tight-knit sort of group of people.

• 1:49:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. You can see they're all, they're all interconnected and.

• 1:49:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, so that's, that's concerning. Now, once again, not only does Katie say that she heard Karen make this statement, she claims that it happened in front of a police officer. But that statement, I hit him, I hit him, that all these people are claiming Karen made that night, or that morning. They, that statement doesn't appear in any reports, not even in the police reports. And according to Katie McLaughlin, Karen made the statement in front of a police officer.

• 1:49:34Derrick Levasseur?

  What do I always say to you? What's our motto?

• 1:49:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wait, which motto?

• 1:49:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Police motto. If it's not in the report, it didn't happen.

• 1:49:43Derrick Levasseur?

  You never, you never, I never said that to you before?

• 1:49:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, but you have, but damn, that the fact that you would just kind of say that is you saying Karen Reed never made that statement.

• 1:49:52Derrick Levasseur?

  No, what I'm saying is if it's not in the report, it didn't happen.

• 1:49:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's not in any reports, Derek.

• 1:49:56Derrick Levasseur?

  That's, that's the problem. And I told my guys that all the time. I don't care what you saw, if it's not in the report, it didn't happen, according to the courts. So you got to, you got to make sure you document it, and it's also on the supervisors. You know, but that clearly that didn't happen. If it, if it was said. It's not in the reports and therefore you have this type of situation at trial where the defense is eating your lunch.

• 1:50:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so Karen's over here standing outside the Albert home, standing over the body of John, telling everybody and their damn mother, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. All these people hear it.

• 1:50:29Derrick Levasseur?

  What do we have, like six people so far?

• 1:50:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Minga, like six people and none of them find it important enough to place in a report?

• 1:50:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Come on.

• 1:50:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, some of them are not even professionals. We're talking friends as well. Jen and Kelly, they heard it as well. Didn't he, didn't they say that she said I hit him as well to them?

• 1:50:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but I mean, they also are relaying this to police officers. Jen McCabe told the police officer.

• 1:50:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, no, I'm not. I'm saying it should be in the report. I'm just saying now we're up to like two, I would say like four or five people that heard this, right?

• 1:50:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Well, if you're including Jen and Carrie, then yeah, we've got.

• 1:51:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Carrie, not Kelly. I'm sorry. You're right.

• 1:51:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  We got Katie McLaughlin. We got the, the one EMT who clearly was trying not to perjure himself on the stand. Forget his name. We've got the police officer. Um, we've got, yeah, that's.

• 1:51:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Jen and, Jen and Carrie.

• 1:51:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Jen and Carrie, yeah.

• 1:51:18Derrick Levasseur?

  So like five.

• 1:51:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's crazy. So it's not going to appear in any reports. This claim only makes its appearance later throughout the investigation, grand jury, and then the trial, like sporadically. So John's body was located about 30 feet from the Albert's home. He was wearing the same clothing he'd been wearing when he was seen on surveillance video earlier that night at the bars. The autopsy was performed on January 31st by Dr. Irene Scordi Bello of the ME's office and she ruled his cause of death was blunt force trauma to the head and hypothermia. John arrived at the hospital with his body temperature in the low eighties and his pancreas was dark red in color indicating that hypothermia was contributing factor

• 1:52:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  to his death, but the blunt force trauma had occurred before hypothermia set in. There was a laceration to the back of John's head approximately two inches in length, along with multiple skull fractures that had resulted in brain bleeds. Dr. Scordi Bello also observed that John had two swollen black eyes, a small cut about his right eye, a cut to the left side of his nose and. Several abrasions on his right forearm. John O'Keefe would be pronounced dead at Good Samaritan Hospital at 7:59 a.m. And when Troopers Proctor and Bukenek viewed his body at the hospital, they both observed six bloody lacerations of varying lengths on his right arm. They noted in their reports that these cuts extended from his forearm to his bicep.

• 1:52:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, the prosecution is going to say that these cuts were from the glass that John was holding and they cut his arm when he got hit. The defense is going to say these cuts were made when he was attacked by a German shepherd inside the house, good old Chloe. Troopers Proctor and Bukenek also noted in their reports that both of John's eyes were swollen shut and blue in color, and they both made a note in their reports that John's boxer shorts, which were in a pile of other clothes on the floor, were saturated with blood and vomit. Now, this is weird. Saturated with blood and vomit. In my opinion, if he got hit by a car, he's going to fly up in the air, he's going to fall down, right? And, and he's going to be knocked out, and this is why he, he's unconscious and then

• 1:53:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  the hypothermia sets in. How is he vomiting to the point where it's ending up as boxer shorts? That sounds like something that would happen if you were standing upright and vomiting, not if you were laying down and vomiting.

• 1:53:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Could he have been, could he have tried to get up? Maybe stood up for a couple of minutes, threw up and then laid back down? I agree with you. It seems like the physics would take hold there and it would just be out the side of his mouth on the sidewalk. But the injuries itself, it just seems like pretty significant for someone who was hit by a car in reverse. But they could have been hit and then flew to, like you said, hit something else, they could have hit a wall or whatever. I don't know what's in that immediate area where he could have.

• 1:54:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nothing really, there's a flagpole, but he wasn't close enough.

• 1:54:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Flagpole, could have bounced off the flagpole a little bit.

• 1:54:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, he wasn't close enough, no.

• 1:54:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, it's a lot of injuries.

• 1:54:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And there was only one shoe present with John's other clothes, uh, black Nike sneakers. So the EMTs who-

• 1:54:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Did no other shoe was ever, never found?

• 1:54:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  They did find it several days later.

• 1:54:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Where, where was it?

• 1:54:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  They found it by where his body was found. So the EMTs who

• 1:54:29Derrick Levasseur?

  If you told me it was in, if you told me it was in Brian's house, then I'm leaving.

• 1:54:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  How would anybody know if it was Brian's house?

• 1:54:33Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm just saying if

• 1:54:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nobody searched Brian's house.

• 1:54:35Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm just saying if the shit, I would

• 1:54:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Could have been, could have been in Brian's house.

• 1:54:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I get what you're saying.

• 1:54:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then it got thrown out later, you know? Cause it wasn't found during the first sweep.

• 1:54:42Derrick Levasseur?

  But you know, you're from, you, you get more snow than me. You know it is possible.

• 1:54:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  We're gonna talk about, they used a leaf blower to blow the snow away. They found shards of clear glass, but not, uh, red headlight, red, uh, rear taillights, pieces of plastic, some of them pretty large, by the way. Not pieces of red plastic, not a black Nike shoe. Don't you think those things would stand out in the white snow? More than clear glass from a cocktail glass?

• 1:55:10Derrick Levasseur?

  So, I, I know you're not trying to do this, you just can't help yourself. So you clearly believe at this point, I mean, you just gotta call it what it is. Like we're beating around the bush. You believe all of this was planted.

• 1:55:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know what to believe.

• 1:55:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, you sure? Okay.

• 1:55:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm trying to find, I'm, I'm finding it hard to believe.

• 1:55:26Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm just saying, that's what you're inferring. Everything was planted there.

• 1:55:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm not inferring anything. That's what the defense infers. I am looking at, I'm, I'm looking at how the evidence was discovered and I'm trying to find a logical way of how you would find clear glass, but not red plastic from a taillight and not a shoe. A size 12 black Nike's, Nike man shoe.

• 1:55:49Derrick Levasseur?

  The clear glass was found on the ground, not just on her bumper.

• 1:55:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Correct.

• 1:55:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Alright, so state of his boxer shorts is weird. Um, the cuts to his arm, also weird. That'll come into play later, so put a pin in that. At 9:08 a.m., Karen Reed's blood was drawn at the hospital and her blood had a reading of 93 milligrams slash DL. What, what does DL stand for?

• 1:56:14Derrick Levasseur?

  No clue.

• 1:56:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  No clue. Okay, so Nicholas Roberts, a forensic toxologist from the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab, he performed both a serum conversion and a retrograde extrapolation on this reading and he would testify that he believed that Karen Reed's BAC at that time that her blood was drawn was between 0.07 and 0.08%, which meant that around 12:45 that morning, her BAC would have been somewhere between 0.13 and 0.29%. So, like, pretty drunk, okay?

• 1:56:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Smashed. Yep.

• 1:56:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Absolutely. So when the EMTs removed John's body in order to put him in the ambulance and transport him to the hospital, his phone, his cellphone was under his body and it was also reported that under his body, the grass could be seen. So this is another thing people point out and they're like, oh, well.

• 1:57:03Derrick Levasseur?

  He was there before, he was there before the snow.

• 1:57:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or he was still warm when he laid down and the snow under his body.

• 1:57:09Derrick Levasseur?

  And melted?

• 1:57:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so that, but that is a great, let's, let's talk about that for a second. Because that's this case and a lot of other cases. Think about what we just said and it's important. I just said something, just that first thing that came to my brain, which was, oh, grass underneath him, you know, that means you moved something that was there before the snow started, right? Common sensical. But then you just said something where it's like, no, or it could be that he was so warm and he was still alive that he melted the snow below him. Both can be true. And depending on where you are in this case, that's the one you're gonna go with. And I only say that because.

• 1:57:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. This, this happens with multiple.

• 1:57:46Derrick Levasseur?

  No matter what I say or what you say, there's an alternate angle and it's gonna explain how the narrative that one person believes in is not true and the one that they believe in is true. And that is a story of a lot of these cases.

• 1:57:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  What does this do in a trial? It's not about what's true.

• 1:58:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Creates doubt, yeah. No, the defense is just trying to create doubt.

• 1:58:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  What story is the jury gonna believe?

• 1:58:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. There, there's a ship going down this, you know, this body of water. The defense's job is to poke holes in that ship. It's all they're supposed to do.

• 1:58:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  And to be fair, neither of those things could be true. It could be something else entirely.

• 1:58:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course, of course.

• 1:58:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  But these are the two stories that the jury's being presented with. Which one are they more likely to believe?

• 1:58:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, it would align with theories, right? Like if, if it's poss, if it's the theory that he was there before the snow started, it gives more credence to the idea that maybe Karen.

• 1:58:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Accidentally did it, or, or, or didn't do it at all. Now, if it's later, then it gives more credence to the fact that he was in the party for multiple hours. So that's what I'm saying. What we're, we're giving two scenarios, but what we're really doing is supporting two theories.

• 1:58:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dude, especially if he had his cellphone. Like if he was alive, if, let's say she hit him and then they were gonna say, oh, well, he was alive for like two more hours before he died. He had a cellphone. Why wouldn't he have gotten his cellphone and called somebody?

• 1:59:02Derrick Levasseur?

  He was, I would think at that time, 1237, we said, 1242, he's already in the condition that he's in.

• 1:59:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. So now this is, we're coming, the episode's getting long, but we gotta talk about the red solo cups before we go. So this is the last thing we're gonna cover.

• 1:59:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. I'm, I'm, I need to know about the red solo cups because.

• 1:59:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  I need you to know.

• 1:59:20Derrick Levasseur?

  I need to know because I can't keep pretending to not look it up. I gotta know.

• 1:59:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. So after John's body was removed, Lieutenant Paul Gallagher, Sergeant Michael Lank and Sergeant Sean Good of the Canton Police began searching for evidence in the snow in the immediate area around where John's body had been found. There they discovered a broken cocktail glass, and they also took samples from the snow where a red substance, which looked like blood, was found. And they always say it looked like blood. That's what they say, but it was blood, obviously. However, the way the blood samples were collected was unorthodox, to say the least, and would later obviously be called into question. Sergeant Michael Lank of the Canton Police would later testify about his methods in court, and

• 2:00:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  I cannot wait to hear Derek's take on this one because he's been trying to be fair. I really, literally don't know how you could be fair about this.

• 2:00:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, you know, you're not setting, I mean, you're serving as a defense right now, but okay, let's play this clip. Here, we have to say.

• 2:00:19Speaker 06

  I stood by and observed while Lieutenant Gallagher used a leaf blower to try to clear the top layers of snow off of the scene. The purpose behind the leaf blower was to just take the top layers of snow off to reveal what was underneath and try to preserve any potential evidence. Ultimately, we were able to see what appeared to be blood drops in the snow as well as a drinking glass, cocktail glass. Drinking glass was secured into an evidence bag and the.

• 2:00:52Speaker 02

  Uh, the blood drops were secured into six, uh, solo cups.

• 2:01:00Speaker 05

  And, um, why, why were they secured into six solo cups?

• 2:01:05Speaker 02

  We did the best that we could with the situation with the weather deteriorating situation. Uh, Lieutenant Gallagher was able to, uh, attain the, uh, solo cups from Lieutenant Kelleher's house, which was diagonally across the street.

• 2:01:22Speaker 05

  Once they were, uh, secured, uh, just in reference to the, the solo cups, beyond sort of just putting them into solo cups, what if anything else, uh, did you or the other officers do to secure those, those items specifically?

• 2:01:36Speaker 02

  Uh, they were secured into a brown evidence bag.

• 2:01:40Speaker 05

  And following them, uh, being secured, where, where did they go from that?

• 2:01:44Speaker 02

  They were then, excuse me, they were then placed into my, uh, truck at that point, my, uh, police truck that I was using that day, and ultimately transported back to the police station.

• 2:01:57Speaker 05

  And transported back to the police station by?

• 2:01:59Speaker 02

  By me.

• 2:02:01Speaker 07

  I do want to talk for a second, just a brief second, about, um, setting up a crime scene outdoors. You indicated that the crime scene was relatively secure, was your word, was relatively secure because there were, there were, uh, patrol cars or cruisers sort of around the perimeter of the yard, is that right?

• 2:02:21Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 2:02:21Speaker 07

  Crime scene tape wasn't working because it was windy?

• 2:02:24Speaker 02

  Crime scene tape was up, but it was being blown all over the place.

• 2:02:28Speaker 07

  Okay. Uh, and of course, Canton PD has the ability to go get steaks and just hammer some steaks into the dirt if you wish to?

• 2:02:35Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:02:36Speaker 07

  You don't have steaks at Canton PD?

• 2:02:37Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:02:38Speaker 07

  You have to eat steaks, E-S-T-A-K-E-S.

• 2:02:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know what a steak is. No, we, we don't have any.

• 2:02:44Speaker 07

  Canton PD doesn't have those?

• 2:02:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:02:47Speaker 07

  Um, so if crime scene tape was blowing down, that was just sort of a, let's give up on it? Wouldn't do any good?

• 2:02:54Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:02:55Speaker 07

  In your mind, it was futile?

• 2:02:58Speaker 02

  The crime scene tape was, was.

• 2:02:59Speaker 06

  It was futile, yes. It was left up until we made the determination to take it down, but it wasn't, it wasn't really doing its job.

• 2:03:06Speaker 07

  All right. And once the scene was cleared, all those cruisers that were protecting that crime scene were now gone, right?

• 2:03:15Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:03:16Speaker 07

  And all the cruisers were gone by about seven fifty in the morning, seven fifty, seven fifty-five.

• 2:03:20Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:03:22Speaker 07

  So before eight AM, that crime scene was completely, I'm sorry, after eight AM, that crime scene was completely open.

• 2:03:29Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:03:30Speaker 07

  Unsecured.

• 2:03:31Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:03:33Speaker 07

  And available to anybody who wanted access to it.

• 2:03:36Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 2:03:37Speaker 07

  Who, who literally physically leaned down and scooped that blood up?

• 2:03:42Speaker 06

  Me.

• 2:03:43Speaker 07

  And that was done in a plastic solo cup that we've heard a little bit about.

• 2:03:48Speaker 06

  Yes, yes.

• 2:03:50Speaker 07

  You're aware that those solo cups are unsealed?

• 2:03:54Speaker 06

  I believe Lieutenant Gallagher got them out of a sealed package.

• 2:03:59Speaker 07

  When I say unsealed, I mean they don't have a lid on them, they're not airtight containers.

• 2:04:03Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 2:04:04Speaker 07

  So once you scoop up the snow and the dirt and the debris and the grass and everything else, along with the blood, they're just open for, just open to the air.

• 2:04:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, there was, there was snow and blood, there was no dirt and debris in the, in the glass that I can recall.

• 2:04:18Speaker 07

  You're sure about that? There's no dirt and snow?

• 2:04:21Speaker 06

  I didn't observe any, no.

• 2:04:23Speaker 07

  You didn't observe any dirt and snow? You don't think there's dirt and snow?

• 2:04:27Speaker 06

  I didn't observe any, any dirt in the glass, um, excuse me, the, uh, cup.

• 2:04:31Speaker 07

  Okay. Um, certainly wasn't a sterile cup.

• 2:04:34Speaker 06

  No.

• 2:04:36Speaker 07

  Certainly wasn't a crime scene cup.

• 2:04:38Speaker 06

  No.

• 2:04:39Speaker 07

  You're aware that the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab warns against collecting any biological material in anything made of plastic, correct? Are you aware of that?

• 2:04:51Speaker 06

  No.

• 2:04:52Speaker 07

  When you scooped up the blood, did you videotape that process so we know exactly which blood stain was scooped up from where?

• 2:05:01Speaker 06

  I don't recall if it was videotaped, but we did not document. Which scoop went in which cup?

• 2:05:10Speaker 07

  Okay, so if there's multiple contributors to blood, sorry, multiple contributors of the blood, we sort of have no idea which blood drop belonged to whom, correct?

• 2:05:26Speaker 06

  Objection.

• 2:05:27Speaker 07

  Fifteen. Once the, these unsealed cups were in your possession, what did you do with them?

• 2:05:35Speaker 06

  Uh, the cups were placed into the Toyota Tundra that I was driving that day and ultimately returned back to the police station.

• 2:05:44Speaker 07

  Okay, and you talked a little bit about the process once you returned back to the station. They were put in a brown evidence bag, correct?

• 2:05:51Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:05:52Speaker 07

  And ultimately, when you log these, uh, items into the, tell me the name of it again, temporary evidence?

• 2:05:59Speaker 06

  Temporary, excuse me, the blood was put in temporary evidence refrigerator.

• 2:06:04Speaker 07

  Okay, inside the evidence bag?

• 2:06:07Speaker 06

  Uh...

• 2:06:08Speaker 07

  Cups are still inside the evidence bag and it's logged in?

• 2:06:12Speaker 06

  I don't recall that. I'm not sure if I took them out or not, I don't recall.

• 2:06:21Speaker 07

  You indicated that there's a, an item number or property number that's assigned to them?

• 2:06:25Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:06:26Speaker 07

  There is generated a seal or a label to go on the evidence that's being stored, correct?

• 2:06:32Speaker 06

  It should, yes.

• 2:06:33Speaker 07

  And the bag is sealed, the evidence bag is sealed like the, this red tape that we see on this thing, correct?

• 2:06:38Speaker 06

  When possible, there are certain items that can't be bagged and then sometimes you create a tag and attach it to a tag.

• 2:06:45Speaker 07

  Right, but if it's a brown paper bag, it's an evidence bag, you certainly just fold over the edge of it and just put a red evidence seal on it to make sure that that's secure and not tampered with, correct?

• 2:06:54Speaker 06

  That would be one way to do it, yes. I don't recall if I left them in the bag or took them out of the bag, I don't recall.

• 2:06:59Speaker 07

  If you left them in the bag, you likely would have, if you're booking them into evidence, you likely would have used some red crime scene, I mean, not crime scene tape, evidence tape.

• 2:07:07Speaker 06

  If I had left them in the bag... I would have put the property label right on the bag.

• 2:07:14Speaker 07

  So, everybody could see it?

• 2:07:16Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:07:16Speaker 07

  Okay, it's an evidence bag with important evidence in it, don't mess with it, it's secure, correct?

• 2:07:21Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:07:22Speaker 07

  Can we have tab twenty-three, you see that white rag?

• 2:07:27Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:07:28Speaker 07

  Sorry?

• 2:07:29Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:07:29Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 2:07:30Speaker 06

  Sorry.

• 2:07:30Speaker 07

  Did you see a bag sitting next to it?

• 2:07:33Speaker 06

  I do.

• 2:07:34Speaker 07

  Doesn't look like an evidence bag, does it?

• 2:07:37Speaker 06

  No, it looks like a Stop and Shop bag. But actually, it looks like an evidence bag, it just doesn't say Canton Police on it, it says Stop and Shop, but it's...

• 2:07:45Speaker 06

  It does look like an evidence bag, it's the same thing.

• 2:07:49Speaker 07

  That's a grocery bag.

• 2:07:50Speaker 06

  It is, and that's exactly what our evidence bags look like, so that's what I thought it was at first.

• 2:07:54Speaker 07

  Right, except it doesn't say anything about evidence on it, it says Stop and Shop, correct?

• 2:07:58Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 2:08:00Speaker 07

  What do you think is in that evidence bag, I'm sorry, Stop and Shop bag?

• 2:08:04Speaker 06

  I'm not sure.

• 2:08:06Speaker 07

  You were, when these pictures were taken?

• 2:08:09Speaker 06

  I could tell that it's the Canton Police Sallyport, so it's, it's some point after the state police had seized the vehicle.

• 2:08:16Speaker 07

  And at some point after, you had brought the solo cups back to the station?

• 2:08:22Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 2:08:23Speaker 07

  Matter of fact, these were taken on February first, you recognize that?

• 2:08:31Speaker 06

  It appears to be solo cups with, uh, substance inside.

• 2:08:37Speaker 07

  Are those just any solo cups, or those, the solo cups that you took back to the station from thirty-four Fairview?

• 2:08:45Speaker 06

  I mean, I couldn't say definitively, but it certainly looks like it.

• 2:08:49Speaker 07

  Uh, it appears that they have red liquid material floating in the bottom?

• 2:08:53Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:08:54Speaker 07

  That appear to be blood?

• 2:08:56Speaker 06

  Uh, the top three I can see, yeah, uh, the only two I see that don't have it are the bottom two left.

• 2:09:03Speaker 07

  Okay, and do you see somebody with gloved hands opening that bag? Same bag, little white rag, right there?

• 2:09:09Speaker 06

  I do.

• 2:09:10Speaker 07

  Okay, that appear to be the same six solo cups?

• 2:09:14Speaker 06

  That you just showed me in the previous slide?

• 2:09:15Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:09:16Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:09:16Speaker 07

  Those, are those the same six solo cups that you gathered at the scene at thirty-four Fairview? And ultimately brought back to Canton PD?

• 2:09:24Speaker 06

  They certainly appear like they are.

• 2:09:26Speaker 02

  But I can't say definitively, but they've.

• 2:09:28Speaker 07

  And the reason you can't say definitively, Lieutenant, is because there is no label on this bag, is there?

• 2:09:38Speaker 02

  Not on that side of it, no.

• 2:09:39Speaker 07

  There is no property number on this bag, is there?

• 2:09:43Speaker 02

  Not on the side that's visible to me, no.

• 2:09:45Speaker 07

  There is no evidence tape on this bag, is there?

• 2:09:49Speaker 02

  Not on the side that's visible to me, no.

• 2:09:51Speaker 07

  Well, let's look at the other photographs. Are you, well, before we do that, are you suggesting that all of that material is on the other side of this bag?

• 2:10:00Speaker 02

  I don't know. I'm not suggesting anything, I'm telling you I don't know.

• 2:10:04Speaker 07

  Okay. Looking at it from the top, does it appear anywhere from that vantage point that there's evidence tape that's ever been put on that bag? That's ever been secured?

• 2:10:14Speaker 02

  I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

• 2:10:16Speaker 07

  Well, one of the ways that you can tell that evidence tape has been put on an item is because when the evidence tape is placed on it, it's completely sealed. And if, in fact, if that seal is ever broken, it's not torn off, it's cut, and there's initials put on, correct?

• 2:10:32Speaker 02

  Objection.

• 2:10:33Speaker 07

  Sustained. Have you ever used evidence tape before?

• 2:10:39Speaker 07

  To seal anything?

• 2:10:40Speaker 02

  I'm sure I have, I don't recall off the top of my head.

• 2:10:44Speaker 07

  How long you been a detective? I'm sorry, how long were you a detective when you were a detective?

• 2:10:48Speaker 02

  I was a detective for eleven months as a sergeant, and then I was a detective for fifteen months back in two thousand and eleven, twelve.

• 2:10:56Speaker 07

  And in your experience, and how long you been a police officer?

• 2:11:00Speaker 02

  Uh, over twenty-four years.

• 2:11:01Speaker 07

  So in your twenty-four years of experience and over a year as a detective, you can't remember if you've ever used evidence sealing tape?

• 2:11:09Speaker 02

  As I said, I'm sure I have, I just can't recall one off the top of my head.

• 2:11:14Speaker 07

  When, if you believe you, if you can recall using it at all, isn't the protocol that when evidence sealing tape is used to seal an item of evidence, when it's removed, it's not torn off, it's cut, and then new sealing tape is put over it with an initial and a date, correct?

• 2:11:30Speaker 02

  Objection.

• 2:11:31Speaker 07

  The answer to that. I don't. Okay, next question. Thank you.

• 2:11:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, so defend this, Derek.

• 2:11:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Not gonna defend it, but we're gonna have a little show and tell today on our YouTube version for anybody who's who's watching right now. I haven't been a police officer since 2017. I've been even longer since I was in detectives. I was in detectives for four years. And even now, in my podcast studio, as we speak, I have a couple items that I would like to show to you. First item being evidence tape.

• 2:12:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Aw, look at that. Do you know what evidence tape is, Detective Levasseur?

• 2:12:07Derrick Levasseur?

  And so.

• 2:12:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Have you ever used evidence tape?

• 2:12:09Derrick Levasseur?

  So, but even more so, so this is evidence tape and it is exactly like the defense attorney described. This type of tape, once you put it on there, it doesn't come off. You have to cut through it to open it up, which is how you'll know it's no longer sealed. But I got more just in case. And again, I'm not on the job anymore. We also have a different type of evidence tape. If it's a smaller, something like a smaller item, like maybe this vial that I still carry that I would put blood in.

• 2:12:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not a red solo cup, you mean?

• 2:12:37Derrick Levasseur?

  No, and then.

• 2:12:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  You mean a sealed sterile?

• 2:12:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, I'd put this in some sealed container with evidence tape. And then also, if you're really good at your job, you keep a roll of the biohazard tape with you as well to wrap around it. And then we have what's called gloves. We have also if the, you know, if you're unable to put something on this because it's a little difficult. We have evidence tags. Look at that. It says evidence right on it. So you know, we're prepared over here in Levasseur Studios and.

• 2:13:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wait, hold on. Do you have stakes?

• 2:13:09Derrick Levasseur?

  I know what a stake is. That was the one good line he had.

• 2:13:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  S T A K E S.

• 2:13:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that was the one good line he had. No, I mean, listen, to not make light of the situation, we are taught in, in BCI school, which is criminal investigative school where you're doing like crime scene, forensics, things like that when you're processing a scene. We are taught that in some scenarios, you have to improvise, right? Because time is of the essence. So like an example I always give is you always want to have a scale on you, basically a ruler. We just call it a scale. If you don't have a scale, because sometimes that can get misplaced. Use your flashlight or you use something of reference.

• 2:13:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  When you mean scale, you don't mean a weight scale. You mean this is how far this blood drop is from this blood drop. This is how far this blood drop is from the body.

• 2:13:55Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a ruler. It's stupid, but sometimes the scales are like L shaped, you know? So you'll use that in your photograph, but sometimes you don't have one. So you'll use something that you can use later like.

• 2:14:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  A point of reference.

• 2:14:05Derrick Levasseur?

  A point of, like if I had, if I only had my cell phone, I would put my cell phone there to give you an idea of the size. That is a rare circumstance, but these items that I'm describing to you. Uh, when I was in detectives and we were on call, we always inside our vehicle. And I have the bag over there. That's where I pulled this out of where we had these items at the ready. Uh, for any call, if we got called out to a scene, we had these items because they are critical in any investigation. And it's very apparent to me that this officer was not prepared for duty that day. I don't remember if I had evidence tape in my duty bag as a patrolman. But minimum the detective that shows up, he should have all these items like I have here. So you have a couple of issues you have.

• 2:14:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Um, I also have an issue with the leaf blower too, to a certain degree, because when you're using a leaf blower, obviously you're not a professional leaf blower. So you potentially are blowing away evidence as well. Like he could have blew the shoe further down the road. We don't know. Um, leaf blowers are pretty strong.

• 2:15:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're pretty powerful.

• 2:15:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And so if he was out in the middle of the woods and he had trekked into the woods for like an hour. And the, you know, this, the bags back at the car and he wasn't able, able to get it in there. I could see this justification, but you're right next to the car. The item should have been in the car for you to utilize the fact that he's going across the street. Using solo cups that we don't know if they were used or not used. At minimum, you have cross contamination. You have a chain of custody issue. And when we talk about creating doubt about it, when he couldn't remember whether or not he sealed the bag or even more so. If he's used evidence tape in the past, it was a not a good day for him.

• 2:15:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hold on a second. He kept saying, I put it in an evidence bag. You didn't put it in an evidence bag, dude. You put it in a frickin' Stop & Shop bag.

• 2:15:54Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, I gotta look. Well, maybe I'm confused because the paper, the paper bag.

• 2:15:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Stop & Shop bag. And that is this dude, Link. He's like, but it looks exactly like evidence bags.

• 2:16:05Derrick Levasseur?

  So even the paperback, because I thought the Sally Port.

• 2:16:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wasn't an evidence bag. It was a grocery bag.

• 2:16:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so the paper, okay, so I, I, I missed that because I was, I was thinking about it as two different things. I thought the, the paperback, oh, the Stop & Shop bag. Shout out Stop & Shop. Love Stop & Shop. Um, this is not a paid advertisement, but we love Stop & Shop over here. Um, do you have Stop & Shop where you are?

• 2:16:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Never heard of it.

• 2:16:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, love Stop & Shop. Shout out to Rhode Island, Mass. People know, love Stop & Shop. Staple. Anyways, uh, I thought in the Sally Port, you know what the Sally Port is, right?

• 2:16:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Uh, I would assume it's like the place where they tow cars. I don't know.

• 2:16:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, Sally Port. No, this is good because a lot of people wouldn't know. So basically, when you arrest someone, it's usually one or two garage bays. You pull in and it's a secured bay. The door will shut behind you. And then the other door, there's usually a little locker there where the officer will take off their gun, put it into the locker with a key. And then at that point, you can either get buzzed in or, um, let in by someone. What it does is it creates like a, they call it a man trap. Where if you, if you're pulling a prisoner out of the Sally Port, they can't escape, right? They can't run out of the garage because it's already locked, but they also can't run into the police station because of that secure door there. So it's basically the gray area before you go into the holding area or you go into the station.

• 2:17:21Derrick Levasseur?

  And a lot of times if you're going to process a car in, in inclement weather, you'll bring the car in there because it's a controlled area. That's on camera, that's secured. So the entire vehicle is now part of evidence and can be monitored at all times. So we'll usually put a sign on the door outside the Sally Port for patrolmen saying, uh, the evidence in, in here, vehicle in here, do not enter. So those are all things you gotta do. But yeah, I mean, it's just a cluster. I don't know what else to say.

• 2:17:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. So red solo cups, right? Not covered, not sealed.

• 2:17:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's, it's, yeah.

• 2:17:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Stop and shop bag, not an evidence bag. And you can hear him. He's like, it's the same thing.

• 2:17:58Derrick Levasseur?

  No, he looked like a, he looked like a moron.

• 2:18:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  The defense attorney is like, it's not the same thing.

• 2:18:02Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I was cringing.

• 2:18:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Grocery bag.

• 2:18:03Derrick Levasseur?

  I was cringing, which is why.

• 2:18:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not only that.

• 2:18:05Derrick Levasseur?

  I grabbed all these items.

• 2:18:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  These, these things, these samples, if you can even call them that at this point, were collected on January 29th. This picture was taken on February 1st by Karen Reed's car. Those red solo cups with the blood samples are sitting next to the car in the garage. In that bag still.

• 2:18:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's a problem.

• 2:18:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  They do not have evidence tape on them. They were not put in into refrigerated storage, temporary storage, as he claims. I mean, if they were, why would they be taken out and then put next to the car? It's literally a paper bag with some cups in there that has now water from the snow melting and blood. And we, whatever happened with this stuff, right? This is ridicu- this is two days later.

• 2:18:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, it's bad. And, and I keep saying the spectrum, right? It could be just pure incompetence, or it could be something more nefarious. And that's what we're trying to go through now because

• 2:18:59Derrick Levasseur?

  I have to say, you can't keep just saying the excuse, oh, they just made a mistake, or this is just stupidity, or this is just incompetence. And this is why we have a, a justice system, and this is why we have court. Because the defense attorney, their job is to say, and, you know, did you follow, follow policy and procedure? If you didn't, we're gonna hold you accountable, and you could be responsible for this case going in the trash can just because you're an idiot. So that's what their job is, you know, and that's, you have a lot here that, um, just brings into too many questions.

• 2:19:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  But it seems like it's, it was handled so badly that it was like intentionally handled badly, right?

• 2:19:37Derrick Levasseur?

  So, yes, but also, it's almost like the same thing I said about Karen earlier. Where it's almost so obvious that it's too obvious. Does that make sense? Like, you would think it'd be a little bit more like-

• 2:19:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was making all these weird admissions, yeah.

• 2:19:52Derrick Levasseur?

  It's just like, it's so obvious that it would be a cover up. That, is it a cover up? That's the question. I like, it's so many, there's so many red flags. That like, you would think that if this was a calculated cover up by investigators who do this type of work all the time, they would leave less of a paper trail. But there's just constant examples of, of just mistake after mistake after mistake.

• 2:20:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, it's horrendous. And I mean, once again.

• 2:20:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Evidence tape will be on sale on the Crime Weekly Podcast website if you'd like it.

• 2:20:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, you know who should buy it? Lank. Sergeant Lank. He needs some. I don't know. He can't remember.

• 2:20:30Derrick Levasseur?

  We don't often bring props on the show. This might be a first.

• 2:20:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  He can't remember if he's ever used it.

• 2:20:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Is this a first for us? A prop?

• 2:20:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, of course not.

• 2:20:36Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know. I don't know if we brought up a prop before.

• 2:20:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's, he doesn't know. Did I ever use evidence tape? I cannot recall.

• 2:20:42Derrick Levasseur?

  This is, by the way, this is, this is exactly what you would use. This is exactly what these tubes are for. You have bigger ones too, but you usually use some type of Q-tip or something to scrape it. And then obviously gloves on and then you'd put it in here.

• 2:20:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Then my favorite part, he's like, there's no dirt and debris. It was just snow and blood. And he's like, there's no dirt and debris in the snow.

• 2:20:59Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no dirt and snow.

• 2:21:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dirt, dirt and debris in the snow. And he's like, I didn't see any dirt and debris. Of course there's fricking dirt and debris in the snow, dude. Of course there is, but it's just like, he, he plays dumb.

• 2:21:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Could be no dirt in the snow? If it's like on the top level?

• 2:21:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  They used a leaf blower. You don't think shit was getting all mixed up in there in this hurricane of snow?

• 2:21:18Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I've eaten snow before and didn't taste any dirt.

• 2:21:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  You didn't taste it, but it was there, my friend.

• 2:21:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Probably.

• 2:21:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was there.

• 2:21:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Probably.

• 2:21:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know what else was probably? I don't want to talk about it. Anyways. Listen, this is just the tip of the iceberg. We have barely scratched the surface, if you can believe it. And I mean, we are two and a half hours in right now. And it feels like this was a very jam packed episode and unbelievable how much is still left to cover. So we're going to wrap up now, but stay tuned. Stay tuned, folks.

• 2:21:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, everyone, if you like what you're hearing, like, comment, subscribe. Let us know what you think in the comments below. Uh, we know this is going to be a popular series. It's already the first episode. It's a popular series. So we're going to keep it impartial. I know Stephanie's on one end. I'm always going to try to stay in the middle.

• 2:22:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  So what he means is he's going to try to keep it impartial. That was, you, you were like, we're going to try to keep it impartial. He's like, I know Stephanie's very biased, but I'm going to try.

• 2:22:10Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, everyone, everyone knows you by now.

• 2:22:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's hard to when you're literally faced with the facts of this case.

• 2:22:16Derrick Levasseur?

  I think I'm doing a pretty good job of balancing it here. I'm like, I'm calling, I'm literally bringing out props. I'm calling, I'm calling it how I see it and I'm taking this case at face value and I'm looking at the players in this case. I'm not extrapolating it out to the entire state of Massachusetts or law enforcement in general. I'm talking about these officers. I think I've made it pretty clear that I don't agree with how they've handled this so far. And I can understand why people are very upset about this case and why so many people support Karen because there's a lot of problems with this case just from a procedural standpoint and we haven't even gotten too deep into it yet. So, you know, before we keep going, I'm looking forward to hearing more. We, I know you guys

• 2:22:59Derrick Levasseur?

  will be weighing down in the comments below and letting us know what you think and we'll go from there. We'll take it to the next episode. So, without anything else, before we continue on for another 45 minutes, everyone stay safe out there. We will see you next week. Good night.