Ross Coulthart: "I Located A UFO Base In Arizona!"

I sat down with award-winning investigative journalist Ross Coulthart for a deep and personal conversation about the UFO phenomenon, secrecy, and the weight of uncovering truths long hidden from the public. This is not just a story about sightings. It is about power, disinformation, and the people behind the scenes who have seen more than they were ever meant to. One of Ross’s most powerful revelations centers around Nat Kobitz, former head of science and technology development for the U. S. Navy. Before he passed, Nat confirmed that the United States had recovered multiple non-human craft. He described being brought to a deep underground facility, where he was shown a piece of a craft’s bulkhead. What stunned him was the engineering. As an expert in electron beam welding, Nat recognized that the materials had been bonded atom by atom using methods far beyond any known human capability. He made it clear to Ross, "This was not our technology." We also explored the mystery of the Buga Sphere, the significance of the Kaikoura incident, and what Ross personally witnessed in Sedona. We discussed how mainstream media has failed to confront decades of government-led disinformation and how secrecy continues to dominate global efforts to suppress the truth about non-human intelligence. Ross opens up about the emotional toll of chasing these stories and why he sees it as a journalistic responsibility to follow the evidence wherever it leads. This conversation is about the future of transparency, the growing public hunger for answers, and the awakening happening across generations. Stay until the end, where Ross shares the story of a buried craft too large to move and the bunker being built around it. | Ross Coulthart | YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6PrA6lo8rJLRExhMvX6wKyNzy0hr_QM3 X - https://x.com/rosscoulthart | Sponsors | MASA: Ready to give MASA a try? Go to https://www.masachips.com/pages/jesse-michels and use code JESSEMICHELS for 25% off your first order. Qualia: Take control of your cellular health today. Go to https://qualialife.com/jesse and save 15% to experience the science of feeling younger. Brunt: Get $10 Off @BRUNT with code [JESSE] at https://bruntworkwear.com/JESSE -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Check Out Our New Store ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Patreon (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Website ➤ https://www.jesse-michels.com/ Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] #RossCoulthart #UFO #UAP #Arizona #JesseMichels Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  And if you looked at a particular place over Secret Mountain, you would see this big orb being escorted by helicopters, rising from behind Secret Mountain. And we watched at 1:30 in the morning, and sure enough, up comes this beautiful golden orb, gigantic. It pulses, it's plasmatic.

• 0:51Jesse Michels?

  And so where my mind might go with that is that this is some sort of global control system.

• 0:57Speaker 03

  We've got an object about a mile behind us and it's following us. Let's hope they're friendly.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  One of the first things that one of my sources in that Georgetown pub back in probably 2018 told me was, "It's all about consciousness."

• 1:13Jesse Michels?

  You've probably met more people in and around these programs than anybody else alive.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  You are saying to the human race, "We are not alone." We're definitely not alone.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Anyway, he chuckled. And I remember he just said something like,

• 1:31Speaker 01

  "Yeah, the Americans wanted that one shut down pretty quickly."

• 1:34Jesse Michels?

  Whoa. It's a multi-minute long video of this thing flying in the air. And there are symbols around the top. I showed photos of the symbols to Mario Woods and to Randy Anderson. And both of them freaked out.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  We went to his home and saw this sphere apparently move under its own power. People have been murdered. Because I'm told that the briefing that the FBI gave in Congress really blew people away. I have no doubt they think they're going to get away with it.

• 2:09Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  And you know what?

• 2:10Jesse Michels?

  Why?

• 2:11Speaker 01

  They probably will.

• 2:35Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with Ross Coulthart, who I have just so much gratitude to express. First of all, we've been waiting to do this for a very long time. I'm grateful you're in the US.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  I haven't been avoiding you.

• 2:46Jesse Michels?

  I know you haven't, but I'm also, I just want to express my gratitude because we were talking before when the, you know, cameras weren't rolling. I feel like I am aerodynamically drafting behind you. I feel like you have done so much legwork in getting all these amazing scoops. And, you know, often I'll do, you know, a follow-up interview where, you know, I have a lot of fun. But it's really, I just have so much, I owe you a debt and I think humanity owes you a debt as well. And so I'm grateful for you sitting down.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  It's a mutual aberration society, Jesse, because I often say to my family, how the hell does he do it?

• 3:25Speaker 01

  You seem like a jackrabbit everywhere I see. I mean, have you just come back from Colombia or something? You're doing a Booga Sphere story?

• 3:31Jesse Michels?

  I was in, yeah, I was, well, I was in, this is what's crazy. And I know you've experienced, I'm sure, all sorts of stories where like it starts a certain way and then you have another story come up. So I was investigating these Peruvian mummies, these tridactyl, you know, three-toed and fingered mummies from Peru. And then on the way back up to the US, I stop in Mexico City to meet with Jaime Masan, who's a big proponent of this. And two days before, he happened to get this Booga Sphere sent to him or whatever. And so I happened to be there.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  I've got to know, what's your preliminary assessment? Is it real?

• 4:05Jesse Michels?

  It's so hard to say, you know?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Did you see what, did you see what my friend Rony Vernay posted on Twitter?

• 4:11Jesse Michels?

  Say it for the audience.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Fuel tank. And so, so this particular shape of fuel tank that is exactly nine liters. And it's got similar holes to the one that Yami is relying on. And it does have the same seam running along the side. It, it looks like a direct visual match with a few changes if somebody's cosmetically altered it.

• 4:36Jesse Michels?

  It's definitely remarkable, just the fact pattern. So as you know, very well. Whenever you take a stance, a hard stance in this world, you get a ton of flack. So I'll just give you my fact pattern of what I've experienced and then people can sort of decide for themselves. So Jaime Masan was given this thing. It was taken in Booga, Colombia. That's why it's called the Booga sphere. Um, it was given by a guy. So this video was taken by this guy who is, um. I guess he like, does like, uh, mining and, and metal detection underground. And it's a, it's a very long, it's a multi-minute long video of this thing flying in the air. You've seen the video. And then he picks it up in the forest and there is a little gap in the video.

• 5:21Jesse Michels?

  So that does beget a question of like, you know, provenance and why is there a gap in the video? And then he has it for a while in his possession. He ends up giving it to Jaime Masan. And there are symbols around the top. Apparently it's an aluminum alloy that's, you know, three times the hardness of what we generally use in conventional aerospace. And then maybe the most interesting fact I can give you, uh, that is new to the audience as well. Is I showed photos of the symbols to Mario Woods and to Randy Anderson. Mario Woods, 1977 Ellsworth Air Force Base Experiencer. And then Randy Anderson is this guy who was taken underground, you know, at, um, crane, naval surface warfare crane.

• 6:04Jesse Michels?

  And was possibly shown some off-world technology. And both of them freaked out because it was like that, that these were the symbols that they had both seen. Mario inside the craft.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  I want to give you something because I'm not sure. And again, again, I am not avowing that this is my opinion.

• 6:21Jesse Michels?

  Neither of us are endorsing the Booga sphere. We are just, these are facts that we are listening to.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Endorsing nor debunking.

• 6:26Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  But I did what I'm increasingly doing these days. I took a photograph of the sphere and I uploaded it to AI. And I asked AI, in this case, I think it was Grok. And I said, can you please decipher these symbols for me? And it came back very quickly and said, the circuit.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  And that, I have to admit, made me think it was a hoax. Now, I'm not saying it's a hoax, okay? But what I am saying is that came back when I put it through AI. But AI is often wrong. But what I love about AI is that its ability to draw on symbology and numerology and all of these ideas. And it came back with this one phrase, the circuit.

• 7:08Jesse Michels?

  Well, if you look at the top, it looks like a little semiconductor or a chip.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:13Jesse Michels?

  And then you have, you know, this begets all these ontological questions of like, you have, I think his name is Patrick Jackson?

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:19Jesse Michels?

  Who has, you've done an amazing story. Everybody go watch Ross's story with this guy.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  And I have seen one of these spheres in a different domain in the home of a beautiful man in Texas, who is a good soul. And I can tell you, it may be the case that his sphere is now in the possession of Brendan Fugel. And the Skinwalker Ranch show is going to be paying to have that sphere properly investigated. There's a scoop for you.

• 7:47Jesse Michels?

  That is.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  I was gonna run it on my show. Yeah, so Jim Marlin is a former rock promoter who worked with Willie Nelson. And he has a house in Texas. And we went to his home and saw this sphere.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  I have to be careful. Apparently move under its own power. And I mean, we were sitting with Jim for hours, talking. And he was in a home where the floor had just been fixed, so it's perfectly level. And we verified that with a level. And the ball is sitting stationary on the floor. And then all of a sudden it starts moving. And there's a bar which has a pole coming down onto the floor. It goes up to the bar and from memory, it might have even circled the pole and then come back again part of the way. And there was no movement. We were all just sitting in a chair, talking. And then Jim chortles and goes, oh, look at that.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  And it moves. Yeah.

• 8:52Jesse Michels?

  Was there something that came up in the conversation? Was it aligned with anything synchronous?

• 8:56Speaker 01

  No. And so when I read that story on Channel Seven Australia.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  They, as usual, as TV networks are wont to do, beat the living daylight side of it, which is journalistic term for flogging the story until it bleeds. And it, you know, all the promos were fancy and it made it look like we were saying for sure that it was an anomalous object. We truly don't know for sure. And the great frustration for me for the past few years since I did that story in 2021 is every time I went to Jim and asked him, could we take it to go and get it tested? There was a lot of resistance and it made me suspicious. But then he agreed to go and let it get tested.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  But the problem was when I was trying to find an X-ray place that does industrial X-rays, the first thing they want to know is, well, what's inside it? And I'm going, well, that's why we want to X-ray it. And, and I, I was expressing this dilemma only very recently on a show somewhere. And this gentleman rang me from Chicago and said that he would X-ray it in his industrial X-ray machine. And he had some other type of machine. Can't remember what it was, might have been a CT. Cat scan. Yeah. And he would run it through that as well. And it was for free. And I went to Jim and I said to Jim, Jim, I finally found a place to contest the ball for you, the sphere for you.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Cause one of the things I get most, a lot of the inquiries about from our audience is what happened to this sphere? You know, why haven't you told us the story about the sphere? And I was finally about to announce that we've got somebody who will allow us to do the testing on the sphere, cause Jim won't let us to cut into it for obvious reasons. And he told me, I'm sorry, Ross. Brandon Fugles agreed to fly it in his private jet to Utah where he's going to have it tested in the lab. And look frankly, I'm really happy if that's going to be the case for Patrick, who I know. And um, and for Jim, who's a beautiful guy, uh, to finally get an answer. And Brandon, I've spoken to Brandon about it and I've encouraged him to, to do it. And so hopefully it's all gonna happen.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Fingers crossed.

• 11:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, let's hope. That's amazing. And I think Patrick, because you were talking about the chip. And so where my mind might go with that, again, I don't know if it's real, is uh, that this is some sort of like global control system or something.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Well, Patrick's theory is that these spheres are part of a global defense system by some alien civilization to keep the bad guys out of Earth.

• 11:44Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  And I, I quite like Patrick. He's a very clever man.

• 11:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  He has an eclectic intelligence and he's fun. I honestly don't know how he could know that.

• 11:55Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  And so, I mean, a lot of it is speculation and he's got type one spheres and type two spheres. And often there'll be a photograph of a plane. And you do, you see these spheres around planes in UAP events. So there's often a big, let's call it object rather than a craft. There's a big object that's clearly anomalous, sometimes beside an aircraft. And then if you look really closely, you'll see these dots that are these metallic spheres. And when I did that story, I did that in 2021 for Australian TV, it just went nuts. It's been seen, that particular story, if you add the two iterations of the story, because we, we had to take one down because of copyright issues with music.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  It's been seen over forty-three million times. And so I was getting phone calls, messages, emails from people all over the world, including, I remember a beautiful guy in Africa, who, who told me that they were seeing these spheres. And what I, I can report is whatever they are.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  I do think I can say they're real. They're a real phenomenon. Whatever they are, they're metal spheres with no visible means of propulsion. Dozens of people have told me that they've seen them flying or moving under their own locomotive power. There's no visible way in which they're moving. And I don't honestly know what to conclude about them because, I mean, I expressed the enigma by telling the story. But like so much of this whole story, Jesse, I don't know about you, but I often feel like I've got my eyes closed and I'm kind of feeling in the dark and trying to get an idea about what it is.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  And then as soon as I've got the texture and the feel of what's been in front of me here, I realized there's a whole other room over here of stuff that I've never gotten my brain around. And it's, it's, it's mind-bogglingly complex, whatever it is.

• 14:03Jesse Michels?

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• 14:48Jesse Michels?

  the usual ones. But the real difference is how you feel: light, satisfied, no crash, no bloat, and no weird craving spiral an hour later. I've been snacking on them nonstop while working on these shows, and they actually keep me sharp. Masa chips are beloved by tens of thousands of customers and have been endorsed by industry-leading health and nutrition experts like Ben Greenfield and Gary Brekka. So, ready to give Masa a try? Go to masa.com. Masa Chips dot com slash Jesse Michaels, Michaels with no A, and use code Jesse Michaels for 25% off your first order. That's Masa Chips dot com slash Jesse Michaels and use code Jesse Michaels for 25% off your first order.

• 15:31Jesse Michels?

  You're really helping the channel out when you use that code and this is a product I love and consume just about every day. Part of what I want to do in this interview is so many people are used to seeing you in the context of breaking these bombshell stories. I want to get to know the man behind that because you are often the interviewer. And so how did you were, you know, exposing corruption and stuff with the surveillance state in Australia, right? How did you get into UFOs to begin with?

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Like every kid, I was obsessed with Doctor Who and I loved a show called UFO that was on TV. It was a British series about malevolent aliens invading Earth. And there was this secret organization called Shadow that was defending Earth. But I'll be honest, I always saw that as fiction and I accepted it was fiction. I never believed it was true. And even when in New Zealand, where I was living as a kid, I,

• 16:31Speaker 01

  there was a really big UFO incident in 1978, when I was 16 years old, in a place called Kaikura on the east coast of the South Island of New Zealand. And there was a cargo aircraft flying up that coastline in 1978 in the middle of the night. And the pilot and the copilot had these objects, clearly in their view, elliptical metallic disc shaped objects come right up to the cockpit window glowing, but clearly metallic and then go away again. And what was interesting was that it was another kind of Nimitz story because you had sensor systems. I found the guy in Wellington across Cook Strait,

• 17:16Speaker 01

  who was the radar operator on the night who'd seen these things on radar. And as the two guys who were the journalists on the aircraft were describing the objects, say, going to the west, the radar operator, John Cordy, was seeing them go to the west.

• 17:34Speaker 03

  The twelve o'clock here at two zero miles.

• 17:38Speaker 04

  Roger, we have that one also and quite a good visual display at the moment.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  It's showing light.

• 17:46Speaker 04

  Hey, it looks like it's collecting light.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  So you had this contemporaneous, real-time confirmation of solid objects moving, or at least objects that registered on radar, moving in the directions that these witnesses were saying that they were seeing these objects moving, and they were seeing objects that were plasmatically glowing, but at the same time clearly solid, structured, in their words, craft.

• 18:13Speaker 03

  We've just heard from Wellington radar that we've got an object about a mile behind us and it's following us. Let's hope they're friendly.

• 18:21Speaker 04

  This here, Alfredo, the strong target, right in formation with you now, could either be left or right, but your target has doubled its size.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  And for each of those people, it was a transformative moment. But what was really interesting for me as a journalist was, I bought, as a teenage boy, the official government explanation. And I was doing my exams, I was really focused on my studies. There'd been the Valente story of a young boy called Frederick Valente, who had disappeared in his Cessna aircraft flying over Bass Strait in Australia just a few months before. And as somebody who was really already very interested in the media, I kind of bought into the idea that this is all a big media beat-up, because there's a big problem in the December-January

• 19:13Speaker 01

  period, it's the Christmas holiday period, the news is pretty boring. And so this was obviously a story that the media had leapt on to. And I just thought, yeah, this is just a big media beat-up. What was interesting also was that the government had come out with an official explanation very, very quickly, which said that these were squid boat lights. And in New Zealand, there are these big Japanese fishing fleets that go off the coast with these gigantic lights. And you often saw them as a kid and they were glowing on the horizon and they looked spooky. And so the theory that was pushed by the New Zealand Air Force was that these were squid boats lights. And the captain, the co-pilot of one plane and the captain and the co-pilot of another plane.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Even though they were flying at fourteen thousand feet, they were mistaken. And those objects were below them and it was some kind of refraction in the air. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It all gave a reasonable tinge of explanation that made everybody in New Zealand think, ah, that was just a bullshit story during the Christmas season. It's all over.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  For me though, it was interesting because much, much later, when I became a journalist, I was working for the New Zealand Herald newspaper and I met Sir Robert Maldoun, who was the former New Zealand Prime Minister. And he used to do these convivial little chats at Christmas time where a young reporter, me, had to drive up and interview him and talk to the former Prime Minister about whatever he wanted to talk about. And I decided, I don't know why, I knew he'd been the Prime Minister at the time. I decided to ask him, what about that Kaikura UFO thing that happened when I was sixteen? And by that time, I think I was about nineteen or twenty, I can't remember. Anyway, he chuckled and I remember he just said something like,

• 21:00Speaker 01

  yeah, the Americans wanted that one shut down pretty quickly.

• 21:03Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  And that, because I love espionage stories and I love, as a young New Zealander, I was always focused on books about espionage. And as you referred to earlier, one of the biggest stories I did in my time in Australia was I revealed the existence exclusively of the Echelon Communications Surveillance System, which is what the Five Eyes operate to intercept communications. And for the first time ever, um, I got from an intelligence service in Australia, an official admission. That there was a system called Echelon and it was involved in communications, surveillance and spying. And so I was switched on to that issue all my life. I've always been really

• 21:45Speaker 01

  interested in spies and espionage. And so it twigged my interest that Sir Robert Muldoon was describing this admission that there'd been some kind of American intervention, but he wouldn't go any further. And then much, much later, when I was writing my book, I discovered that there'd been this release of the New Zealand archives in about 2011. And it essentially revealed the detail of what went on inside the Air Force in New Zealand to try and fix this problem as fast as possible. And it was quite clear, these Air Force officers had been told, find a fucking solution as fast as possible. We want this off the front page. And it was quite clear enormous amounts of pressure was being put on the Chief of

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Air Staff, the head of the Air Force, by the Prime Minister's Office to make this one go away. And hence the squid boat explanation. And then when I was writing my book, I met Quentin Fogarty, who'd been one of the reporters on the plane, who by complete chance, his son Ben was one of the chief cameramen at Sixty Minutes, where I was working as a reporter. And so Ben said to me, my dad was the guy who was on that plane that night. So I got to meet his father, another weird serendipity. And another one of the reporters was a political correspondent called Dennis Grant of great renown later on in Australia. And Dennis confirmed all the story. And he introduced me to Bruce MacCabe, who was the atmospheric

• 23:15Speaker 01

  physicist who sadly recently died. And all of a sudden, I realized that the story that I'd bought as a young teenage kid, that basically told me this was bullshit.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Was actually completely untrue. And there'd been a really elaborate cover up.

• 23:35Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  And that fascinated me and it was one of the, cause I actually started out writing my book in about twenty eighteen when I left sixty minutes. I thought I wanted to do a book debunking UFOs. I was arrogant and I had this assumption that all UFOs were nonsense. And it was only a matter of time. I'd read Nick Cook's um hunt for zero point and you know, he'd implied very strongly that there was some sort of secret US aerospace program. We obviously have heard all the rumors about the Aurora, which or the TR three B. And I just assumed it was some kind of black world American technology and that a bit of dutiful digging would no doubt

• 24:16Speaker 01

  reveal this and somehow for some inescapable reason, I would discover it and make my name by revealing that the whole UFO story was complete nonsense. But the more I got into the story because of that Kaikura story. Everywhere I went, everybody was telling me this is real. And so I had sources from the original Echelon investigation I'd done and from people I'd met in Afghanistan, on Iraq, when I covered the war, who were in senior levels in intelligence and um defence. And they facilitated introductions for me to people who privately, when we sat over a table in a bar, said, Ross, this is real.

• 24:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  And that only really happened for me more recently, you know, while I was writing my book. And probably the biggest breakthrough moment for me where I went, holy heck, this is real, is when the the um the technique I'd used to try and investigate this was because of my knowledge of Echelon and how easy it is to intercept digital communications. I decided I wouldn't approach anybody that I thought might know something about this other than by using analog communication techniques. I wouldn't even use phones because

• 25:40Speaker 01

  of course there's a metadata and we knew about that because of the Snowden revelations that there was this metadata trail that essentially reveals that you can be tracked and and they might not know the contents of the phone conversation but they can certainly track a lot about your habits and your movements and who you're talking to by looking at the metadata. And so I wrote letters.

• 26:03Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  So I wrote, I think about a hundred and sixty, a hundred and seventy letters at Last Card. And a lot of it involved doing things like, uh, I'm a lawyer by training. And so as a young trainee lawyer, I'd learned that a lot of stinky stuff happens in the discovery process and legal proceedings with documents that are maybe procured but not necessarily tended in a court case. And they're often tangential to what you're trying to discover to prove the case that you're mounting, but there's some really juicy stuff in there. And so I don't want to go into too much detail, but there were some very helpful lawyers.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  And so I built up a name base of people that I thought might be interesting, who'd been involved in litigation at Area 51. And in a layering and iterative process of doing what I do, which is basic investigative journalism, where you you build up a chronology and you think who might know something about advanced aerospace or who might have been working in a security role or a support role at that time in this area that might know something. You build up a name base. And so I wrote letters to people. And one of the glorious things about America is how ridiculously open every database is. And I could procure the home addresses of everybody

• 27:30Speaker 01

  that I wanted to write to, including some of the most important scientists in America.

• 27:35Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  And what shocked me was one of the letters I wrote was to a guy called Nat Coberts.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  And he was the former head of science technology development for the US Navy.

• 27:49Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  And I'd written to him as an act of brazen cheek, to be perfectly honest. I honestly did not expect that somebody like him would respond.

• 27:59Jesse Michels?

  What did Kobe say?

• 28:01Speaker 01

  He rang me and I didn't talk UFOs with him for three months.

• 28:06Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  And I realized sadly, one of the reasons he wanted to talk to me was because he was a lonely elderly man who, God bless him, was dying slowly of cancer.

• 28:18Jesse Michels?

  Mm.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  And he was in his daughter's home and she was nursing him and he was bored.

• 28:22Jesse Michels?

  Mm.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  And I was interested in talking to him and he was talking to me about developing early drone technology and and how one of their drones had crashed in George Bush, the president's ranch, because the Secret Service had frequency blockers.

• 28:39Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  And, you know, they'd spent millions of dollars on building this drone. And the first time they flew it, because they flew into the Secret Service envelope, it crashed. And he went, there went a few million bucks, you know, and and he had this wonderful Jewish Brooklyn sense of humor. And I became very friendly with him and I loved, I used to really enjoy talking to him.

• 29:00Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  There were things like he'd been involved in developing things on the Lunar Lander. And I knew somebody who'd worked on the Lunar Lander and they told me something about the Lunar Lander. And because Nate knew about that, we bounced off that and it just got more and more interesting. And then one day I rang him and he was getting really ill.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  And I could hear a kind of a change in his voice. And I thought really sad because it was obvious he was ill. And he went, why don't you ask me the question?

• 29:34Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  He was the guy who suggested I ask it.

• 29:37Jesse Michels?

  Oh, wow. He kind of knew you were.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, he knew, he knew why I was there. Yeah, I'd made no secret that I was writing a book about UFOs.

• 29:44Jesse Michels?

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• 30:25Jesse Michels?

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• 31:06Jesse Michels?

  again, that's J-E-S-S-E, for an additional 15% off. That's Q-U-A-L-I-A-L-I-F-E.com/jesse, J-E-S-S-E, for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring this episode.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Why don't you ask me the question? And I was nervous. I was actually slightly nervous.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  And I've never released it, but I've actually got a recording of this.

• 31:34Jesse Michels?

  Oh, my God.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  And he had authorized me to record it.

• 31:38Jesse Michels?

  Of course.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  And I went, "I've been agonizing about how to ask you this question."

• 31:46Speaker 01

  And he went, "Third time, why don't you just ask me the question?" And so I went,

• 31:53Speaker 01

  "Have you ever been read in to any kind of program involving unidentified aerial phenomena, alien technology?" And before I finished answering the question, he went, "Yes."

• 32:09Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  And he'd obviously made the decision to answer the question.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  And I actually didn't hear him the first time he said it.

• 32:19Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  I was expecting him to go, no, I don't know. Cause everybody was saying, no, I don't know anything about what you're talking about. And, you know, well, actually, no, that wasn't true. I'd already had people confirm the retrieval program.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  But there was a kind of a beat, one, two. And then I went, what?

• 32:41Speaker 01

  And, and I, I, I, out of respect to Nate and that and his family, I, I'm not going to go into a lot of detail of the remaining parts of the conversation, because what he then did for me was incredible. He facilitated introductions to people. And that was my big breakthrough.

• 33:03Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  And, um.

• 33:05Jesse Michels?

  Will that conversation ever come out?

• 33:08Speaker 01

  I, I, I think I'd want his family's okay about it.

• 33:11Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, cause it's an emotional thing, I think, for a family to hear a father's voice after he's been passed for so long.

• 33:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  But, um, he was a beautiful guy and, and it was an act of courage on his part. And, and I remember that one of the conversations I had with him was, do you think there's any good reason? Cause this is the thing I wrestle with, and I know you do as well. What's the dirty secret?

• 33:35Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  What, why? Why can't we know this? You know, if the U S has recovered technology, why can't we know? And he hadn't been told that. And, and he had that rigid doctrinaire thing about how he wasn't read into that part of it. And, um, that was a compartmentalized issue. He wasn't entitled to know about. What he told me was that he'd been told that the United States had recovered multiple craft.

• 34:01Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Multiple craft. And he implied very strongly that Roswell and another case I'm interested in Aztec and Kingman were all real incidents. And that really rocked my worldview and, um. But what, what happened was he also told me that he, uh, cause, oh, there was another time I asked him, I said, oh.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Have you ever actually seen evidence of alien technology? And he went, no. And I was kind of disappointed because he implied that he had.

• 34:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  And then he gave me this cheeky look. And because we were talking on Zoom and and I said, have you ever been given anomalous technology?

• 34:49Speaker 01

  That defied prosaic explanation? And he went like he had the first time, yes.

• 34:57Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  And then he told me this amazing story about how he was an expert in a particular type of welding called electron beam welding.

• 35:06Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  And apparently they, his company had done the the nose wheel for the C forty seven, one of the big cargo planes used by the US military, and they need really tough welds. And this is one of the strongest welds you can do of metals. And he was like the world expert with his company in that type of welding. And it's an indistinguishable bead, unlike, I don't know if you've ever welded, but it's it welds leave a big bead. This type of welding didn't. And so he was contacted on his own admission by Wright Patterson Air Force Base. And I think it was even whatever the technology division is known as now. I think it might be the foreign technology exploitation, something or other.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  And he um, he was flown to Wright Pat.

• 35:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  And he did go underground. I remember I giggled and I said, did you go underground? He went, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It was obviously a long way down. And he was taken into a room under heavy guard. And shown what he described to me as the piece of a bulkhead.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  And he said, it looked like it should have been incredibly heavy, but it was almost light, almost lightweight, you know, like a feather.

• 36:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  And he said, what blew him away was, and I don't know enough about metallurgy to know this, but he said there were two types of metal, and he wouldn't tell me what types of metal they were, that had been bonded. And he asked to look at it, I think, under an electron scanning microscope.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  And the scientist in him couldn't resist giving that sense of awe about what he saw, that, he said, it was bonded at the atomic level.

• 36:55Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Whoever had built this had layered it atom by atom. And he said, I know for a fact, that's not a technology certainly that I'm aware of, and I would have thought that I would have known.

• 37:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I think like semiconductors, you can do little amounts of atomic layer deposition, but you can't fabricate at scale materials that are atomically, you know, where you're deliberately placing atoms, you just can't do that. That's amazing.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  So I think for me, the, the big aha moment where I stopped being the skeptic and went, oh, fuck, this is real. I can't believe this. And I remember I actually spent days just going for walks because I was writing my book and it had, it had actually altered. I had a confirmation or bias.

• 37:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  I was writing a book to debunk all this nonsense and, and this guy is telling me it's true.

• 37:48Jesse Michels?

  Is this in plain sight, by the way, that you were writing at the time?

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the great thing about it was, um, I was doing a lot of traveling for 60 Minutes and Channel Seven, two big networks in Australia, and I was often in America. And as part of cost cutting, they'd often leave you in a hotel for a few days while you shared the crew with another reporter. And so you'd have downtime when really all you wanted to do was be with your family. And you're sitting in a hotel in Washington or New York, and it sounds like fun, I know. And once you've tried on the fluffy dressing gown and used the buff salts once, you're just a bit bored. And so I would, um, I'd research things. And I was going to the National Archives and reading a lot of the old archives on UFOs.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  And then Nat organized for me to start meeting people. And that was like, U A P one O one.

• 38:43Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  And there was just this conga line of people coming through an apartment I rented that were

• 38:52Speaker 01

  brave, amazing people.

• 38:55Jesse Michels?

  It's amazing. Well, it's amazing how deeply embedded you became. Because if I remember correctly, Grush had come out and you guys had had some mutual contacts before he came out.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 39:06Jesse Michels?

  And with Jake Barber, I believe you knew him for like a couple of years before he came out.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Say how long I knew I have a man, but basically it's just to protect them. But basically, yeah, I learned about David Grush from people in the program.

• 39:19Jesse Michels?

  I just think that's important for the audience to hear because, you know, they think it's some like choreographed thing or whatever.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  You know, people have always got this idea that all that happens is these people come to you and you interview them. It's a really lazy job.

• 39:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  And they have no idea. Honestly, I I used to have a full head of hair and the the the job of

• 39:42Speaker 01

  it's a bit like you. I really admire the way you do your stuff because you actually know a lot of science and a lot of physics. And you you do. And I love the way you demonstrate that knowledge in the shows that you do.

• 39:53Jesse Michels?

  Thank you.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Whereas I honestly am not a scientist. But what I do is I'm really good, and I learned this at law school, at absorbing huge amounts of information, complex information and analyzing it and understanding it and and making sure I understand it. Because at law school, we had the Socratic method where you were tested orally about your understanding of something. And you were put on the spot by the lecturer and questioned in front of three hundred other students. And if you didn't know your stuff, you were humiliated and vilified. And I was never going to let that happen. And I was humiliated and vilified on constant occasions. And

• 40:31Jesse Michels?

  So you're like Pavlovian conditioned.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's terror terror training. Yeah. And and so I learned subjects so that I could hold conversations with people. And I'd read Scientific American articles and try and understand them. And I, for the life of me, couldn't. And I I'd get friendly physicists or neuroscientists to explain things to me. And it's by demonstrating a knowledge or an understanding or just enough to be able to have a conversation with somebody that increases the flow. And so sometimes I'd come out of a conversation and I'd go, I think I've got what they're talking about.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  And there's a lot of ideas that people were discussing with me that frankly, now that I'm into consciousness and psionics and stuff like that, I'm now only now beginning to understand. And it's, um, it's seven years since I had those conversations.

• 41:29Jesse Michels?

  It's, it's wild how much your kind of aperture opens up getting, I mean, I'm curious as to like how you feel now, because you've broken all these stories. You can't really argue with the substance of a lot of the stories. You can't argue with the people's backgrounds, you know, their credentials, like you, you can't really do that. And so I imagine you feel like you're on this like remote island and then like you have, you know, I feel this at least. You have like mainstream media or news and they just, it's like they can't even comprehend like where you are.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny, I'm so glad you've led me into this path because I'm going to give you my rant. I, I think there will come a time in the not too distant future where there will be a bloody reckoning with the failure of the mainstream media in the main to deal with the greatest disinformation operation in human history.

• 42:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  It has been the most effective psyop ever run.

• 42:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. But you, you also realize when talking to a lot of these people, the psyop, maybe it's at the top, like, okay, I'll tell, give you a crazy story.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 42:42Jesse Michels?

  A friend of mine was planning an op ed with a former cabinet member in the U S. The cabinet member wanted to know where they were, they were expressing frustration about their lack of access to. UFO stuff. I decided to help him out because he was having trouble with the Wall Street Journal getting this published, which is just prima facie crazy if you take that claim at face value. Even just the fact that the cabinet member is claiming it.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, what made the New York Times publish it in 2017? The mere fact that the Pentagon was looking at UFOs was a story.

• 43:17Jesse Michels?

  It's, it's, there you go, which is, that is a story, right? And so, and then you get into all these questions of like, why did the New York Times reject the Grush story? It's crazy. But in this case, I'm talking to this journalist at the Wall Street Journal, trying to help my friend out. And she's actually somewhat open minded, but like she just, you know, it's one of these things where it's like, it seems so beyond the pale. And if you don't understand the, the deeper research and you haven't gone down the rabbit hole, it's kind of like in one ear, out the other. And she then says, I don't know, we have this, um, we have this like consultant that we talked to about UFOs here. And his name is David Spiegel. And you know where I'm going with this.

• 44:00Jesse Michels?

  And David Spiegel tells me that it's all, uh, uh, space trash, uh, temperature inversions and light reflections. And in my head, I'm thinking that's exactly what Don Menzel would say in the 50s to throw people off the trail. And David Spiegel not only did the NASA UAP review panel in 2023, but he happens to run the Simons Foundation, you know, uh, um, and, uh, you know, as a scientific advisor and is very embedded in like, you know, DOE research. And that's where if you both, if you know what we both know, that's where the bodies are buried.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely. No, and it's, it's funny. I, I, one of the things in my line of work is we have a vulgar expression, which is always a summa fuck up before a conspiracy. Like conspiracies happen so rarely. And invariably it's the, it's the screw ups that, that are the explanation rather than an active conspiracy. In this case, I have been led reluctantly to the conclusion, this is a conspiracy. That there really is a group, a cabal, a leadership cabal that is actively conniving to deceive the public.

• 45:08Jesse Michels?

  Why, why do you think that, going back to your earlier question of like, what's the big deal? Why do you think they hide it?

• 45:15Speaker 01

  I think they've convinced themselves because I actually asked somebody from Lockheed Martin.

• 45:21Jesse Michels?

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• 46:04Jesse Michels?

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• 46:39Speaker 01

  So, so somebody rang me out of the blue from Lockheed Martin. I won't say who they are and convey who they are, but they were, they were an executive, a very senior executive. And we were playing a delicate dance. They'd heard me say something and they were thanking me for not putting them in it and for more accurately reflecting the true state of events about something. And essentially it was an implicit acknowledgement by that Lockheed Martin executive that they are holding alien technology. And I just blurted it out and said, look, can I ask you a question? I said, I promise you, I'm not recording you. Why? Why not just come out and say, and he said, it's not us.

• 47:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  He said, it's the agency.

• 47:21Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  He said, we want to do it. And then that's how I found out about the attempt by Bigelow Aerospace.

• 47:28Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  There's this bullshit story about metamaterials that God bless them, Lesley and Ralph, put in the New York Times story. That was always nonsense. It wasn't metamaterials, it was a spacecraft.

• 47:40Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Lockheed Martin was going to pass on control of an alien spacecraft to Bigelow Aerospace. That's the real story.

• 47:49Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm. And you hear rumors that maybe it was the Kingman craft in

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:53Jesse Michels?

  Three, yeah.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  And so the, the interesting thing is the, um, the CIA intervened to stop that from happening. Or at least the Office of Global Access, as it was once known.

• 48:03Jesse Michels?

  And it was, it was Glenn Gaffney, right? It was now.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  It's interesting, I'm not a hundred percent sure it was Glenn Gaffney. I, I, people have denied that from the inside, but I don't know if that's disinformation.

• 48:12Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Glenn Gaffney's definitely been involved in the cover up.

• 48:16Jesse Michels?

  Right. Yeah, no, for sure.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:18Jesse Michels?

  And Australia, I, I remember when I first met you, it was at the Seoul Foundation a couple of years ago. And Australia has its own fascinating history that I remember asking you about at the time. You have this guy named Harry Turner.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  I love Harry Turner.

• 48:31Jesse Michels?

  Tell us about Harry Turner.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Well, a good friend of mine, Bill Chalker, who's probably Australia's preeminent UAP researcher. He got to know Harry really well while Harry was alive. And Harry had been in his youth as a young twenty something, a young physicist recently qualified from Melbourne University. And he expressed an interest in investigating UFOs to the then government. And they'd invited him to come on board. Back in those more learned and insightful days when governments didn't try and hide evidence of UFOs. They invited this young physicist in to analyze UFO sightings because they were like the Americans, trying to investigate them. And we were involved in a collaborative relationship with America, providing information to Project Blue Book,

• 49:15Speaker 01

  handing over some of the more interesting Australian and New Zealand sightings cases. And there was a collaborative exchange of data and information. Which there still is secretly, but I won't get to that until later. But the um, the interesting thing is Harry Turner somehow fell into the Maralinga nuclear test program. And when the British were developing their nuclear weapon, God bless the British, they lit their bombs off in the middle of Australia. And I've been involved in doing stories about what a dreadful scandal that was and how The Wumera test range? Aboriginal people died in their droves from horrible cancers and so did the servicemen who were involved in supervising the tests.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  But there's two ranges, there's the Maralinga range where the bombs were tested and there's the Wumera range where they tested the ICBMs. And Wumera is still very active, it's where the Americans have secretly been testing hypersonic missile technology. And there's a huge level of collaboration secretly between Australia and the US where a lot of your dirty aerospace gets brought out to Australia. And funnily enough, it's neither here nor there. I've had many Aboriginal communities that are often the only communities out there in these remote parts of Australia, who've described black triangles flying over their communities, silent black triangles. Wow. Something is, I'm sure, being tested in the Australian airbag. Wow.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  But Harry, in the nineteen, whenever the nuclear tests started, I think it was in the nineteen fifties and into the sixties, he was the supervising physicist on the range at Maralinga. And he was invited to investigate multiple UAP sightings that took place at Maralinga during the sightings. And there are still reports in the archives of those UAP sightings, and I put a lot of them in my book. And there's a young fellow who, I've just put an article of his up on a website in Australia, Reece Dalton Moore, and he's basically, his grandfather ran the Wumera test range.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  And it turns out he was secretly involved in investigating, Reece Dalton Morgan, I apologize. And his grandfather was involved in secret investigations with the British government in the late nineteen fifties, late nineteen forties in Britain, into UFOs. And so it turned out there's this whole area of physicists, including Harry Turner, who were witness to UFO incidents in their droves in the Maralinga and Wumera Test Range areas during the 50s and the 60s. And so after he'd done that work, Harry went on to work in the equivalent of the DIA, the Defence Intelligence Agency in Australia, which at the time was known as the Joint Intelligence

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Organisation, JIO. And he, in 1972, wrote an extraordinary paper, which lots of people keep on sending me going, wow, you must read this, Ross, you wouldn't know about this. And I've literally written chapters about it and talked about it for years. I find it fascinating. Harry wrote this definitive piece, which basically was a report to the chief of JIO, recommending that the Defence Department of Australia set up a UFO flying squad to investigate UFOs. And it was under serious active consideration. You can see that they weren't going to dismiss their chief scientist in a hurry.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  And he made a very authoritative argument that the Americans were essentially lying.

• 52:56Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  And I have a strong suspicion, because there was an enormous amount of liaison between physicists from America and physicists from Australia, that there was a bit of cross-pollination, that Harry had picked up stuff from American nuclear physicists who were aware of the early stages of the American legacy programme.

• 53:17Jesse Michels?

  Well, you told me one time that like, some of the greybeards you've spoken to in the Australian context, talked about Robert Sarbacher coming and visiting them and obviously Robert's.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Robert Sarbacher was definitely involved in liaison. And the most interesting thing is, a lot of the Australian scientists, including Harry at one stage, went on expeditions to the Pacific Tests, because the Americans were trying to suck up to us for exploding bombs in our backyard, by inviting us to be part of these tests and to be witnesses to them. And of course, they were polluting vast parts of Micronesia, spraying nuclear residue all over huge parts of the Marshall Islands and Johnson Atoll. Huge numbers of communities, I've been out to the Marshall Islands and Johnson Atoll briefly, and it is really quite amazing to think that they were exploding thermonuclear weapons in the open, but I think there was a lot of cross pollination there as well

• 54:11Speaker 01

  between Australian scientists and American scientists. It's pretty obvious, Harry picked up a lot of information and he wrote this absolutely candid analysis that the Americans clearly have some kind of retrieval program. He talked about Roswell, he talked about other retrievals, and he talked about how the Americans were clearly keeping this from us. And look, even in present day, this is strategically significant for us in Australia, because I was involved in 1994, that's how old I am, in another story about spies, where I revealed that our intelligence service, the equivalent of the CIA, ACES in Australia,

• 54:55Speaker 01

  did plausibly deniable favours for its allies, America and the UK, under the Five Eyes Alliance. And there were amazing examples of plausibly deniable favours where, for example, Australian technical operators, people who did bugging and tapping, were borrowed by the Brits. And MI6 would ring the Australians and say, I say, old chap, can I borrow one of your tech ops, lads? And we spoke to some of these people who were involved in these technical operations, and they told us how one of them had flown to Kuwait after the first Gulf War. And there was a huge amount of money going for contracts for the rebuilding of Kuwait,

• 55:40Speaker 01

  multi-billion dollar fat juicy cost plus contracts. And there were Australian construction companies involved in bidding wars with British companies to win these incredibly lucrative contracts. And so the Brits secretly borrowed one of the technical operators' buggers from Australia to win a commercial advantage against Australia by bugging the Kuwaiti government officers on behalf of British intelligence. And it blew me away, I verified this directly with some of the people involved in the operation, that Australian

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Spooks were used this way as plausibly deniable operatives to do things that the British wanted to be entirely off the books. And if they'd been caught doing it, they would have, it would have been my government, Australian government, that was compromised, not the Brits. And we've been doing this kind of dirty work for years in the Five Eyes Alliance. That story was like incendiary inside the Five Eyes Alliance. I know it upset a lot of people because it revealed the dirty little secret that the Kiwis and the Aussies, and to a lesser extent, the Canadians, they do the shit that the Brits and the Americans want to deny, including spying on their allies and bugging, including

• 56:59Speaker 01

  in some cases, their allies. And I, I've met this group of people who'd been involved in these operations, and that was always in the back of my mind when I was investigating the UFO stuff. So when I later on started investigating UAP retrieval operations, I knew people from special forces in Australia, including retired special forces people who'd worked in a particular era, when I knew there were allegedly American retrieval operations involving UFOs. And they told me they'd been involved in retrieval operations. And the incredible thing was, the Australian government was never briefed into these retrieval operations.

• 57:41Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  They were paid cash US dollars just to keep their mouths shut. They were asked to sign NDAs. And if you think about it, it's perfect.

• 57:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  There were no US personnel involved in this operation.

• 57:55Jesse Michels?

  Right, right. And it's not even-

• 57:58Speaker 01

  The Australian government didn't know, and these guys walked away with fat checks and were kept very happy. This is why the fact of the Canadian involvement in retrievals and reverse engineering efforts has been kept so secret for so long. Because Canadian scientists have been and are involved in the legacy program, and it's been kept secret from the Canadian people. And the only reason I'm aware of this stuff is because I know to look for it because of the stories I've done previously about things like Echelon and the plausibly deniable favors of Secret Service's exchanging each other's men to do dirty tricks on each other.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  And that woke me up. I, I, I knew to ask the question when I was questioning people in the program. And they'd say, oh, yeah, I remember the Aussies. I remember that guy. Yeah. And it's interesting because people wanted to talk about it because when I really pushed the issue to come back to the actual question you'd asked me, there was no good reason for this to be kept secret. And that blew me away. And Harry Turner was the very early proponent of the fact that Australia was having the wool pulled over its eyes.

• 59:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  And I care about this issue because we're currently negotiating, we've actually agreed to buy three hundred and sixty eight billion dollars worth of Virginia-class nuclear attack submarines from your government in America. Because we supposedly need them as a strategic deterrents to deal with the Chinese. And what it's really all about is helping you guys fight the next war that they think they're going to have with China and maintaining American imperial hegemony. And there are a lot of people, including a former Australian Prime Minister, I know, Paul Keating, who've said publicly, why are we so slavishly doing these things for the American alliance?

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  And I think there's a fundamental deceit that lies at the heart of this alliance and it's UAPs. And I've raised this at a very high level with our government. And I've had people in our government say to me, Ross, give me the evidence.

• 1:00:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, I'm going to link that document at the bottom of the, in the description of this video, because it's an amazing document.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:00:23Jesse Michels?

  Talks about crash retrievals. It confirms all these things that you have to kind of do deep research in the US to even know, which is.

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  Progressive's Accident Response can contact emergency services if you're in a major accident. The only thing worse than someone you love being in an accident is not being able to help them. So Progressive is here to help when you can't. So get peace of mind knowing your loved ones are protected with Progressive's Accident Response. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Limited availability in California. Driver is responsible for emergency and towing charges not covered by the policy. Coverage subject to policy terms and conditions.

• 1:01:01Jesse Michels?

  Blue Book is fake. Blue Book was this total PR, you know, job to rationalize and to get blown away UFO sightings in the 50s and 60s. And then it goes into the fact that the real work around anti-gravity was going on. And you had people like Oppenheimer, Wheeler, Freeman Dyson, our top scientists, all investigating this stuff. And it even lists the outposts of the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence studying this. And it talks about University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, where we know that they were funding Thomas Townsend Brown and all sorts of other, you know, anti-gravity stuff. So it's a fascinating document. Speaking of the Marshall Islands, you, before me, actually broke this amazing story about Blue Gill Triple Prime.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:44Jesse Michels?

  With Jeffrey Kruchshank, who is a really amazing researcher and also comes from the nuclear world. And what got you on to that story? And now, you know, I want to talk about this with you because there's a little bit of controversy around Harold Malmgren.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Well, I know. And I've seen Jeff's also published a rebuttal to Douglas Dean Johnson's hatchet job.

• 1:02:07Jesse Michels?

  I will link that too.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's interesting because I haven't had a chance to read his rebuttal yet. I thought Douglas raised some legitimate points.

• 1:02:16Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  And I'm really interested to see the academic argument back from Jeff. I just haven't had a chance to read it yet. But yeah, I mean, how did I get into that? I was, as a young man, I was living in New Zealand when these tests were happening in some cases. And it was, I can tell you, a big issue that both the Yanks and the French, particularly the French at Mururoato, were exploding thermonuclear weapons in our backyard. And I can remember, as a much younger journalist, I learned how to use the archives. And one of the early documents I found in the Australian archives was evidence of secret testing of

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  animals for radiation residue from those nuclear experiments that were, at the time, kept from the Australian and New Zealand public. And there were nucleotides showing quite concerning levels of radioactive isotopes coming from weapons testing, including, by the way, Maralinga and. And other explosions that had taken place in islands off the coast of Australia that showed that contrary to what the public had been told, there were radioactive elements getting into the blood and the bodies of human beings. And more importantly, there was a discernible sigma move, if you like, showing a statistical lift in cancer rates.

• 1:03:41Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  And this was never revealed. It was never talked about.

• 1:03:44Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  And I just, I guess I grew up in that environment of deep skepticism. I was also living in New Zealand around the time of the attack by the French on the Greenpeace boat in Auckland Harbour, where an environmental vessel that was being used by Greenpeace to go and demonstrate against the Murrah Atoll nuclear tests was blown up by the Deja Sae, French intelligence, an intelligence operation, slap bang in the middle of Auckland Harbour. I mean, incredible operation. I mean, incredible French arrogance to think that they could do that and not get caught. And the stupid buggers, if they just hadn't

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  tried to get the deposit back on their rental car, the French would have got away with one of the most awful crimes of that time of recent history. But, you know, there was this sordid period where the great imperial powers of the world were looking for rental, for real estate to explode their nuclear weapons. And both the US and France used the South Pacific and/or the Pacific. And it was a big political issue for me as a young man in New Zealand and much later in Australia as well. People were concerned about this. Why the hell are we allowing the Yanks to do this? And when Maralinga

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  came out, very much in 1988, there was a huge court case by servicemen in the UK where all of the dirty secrets of Maralinga came out. And all of these horrible revelations of toxic radiation exposure were finally revealed. And the Maralinga Royal Commission remains, I think, one of the most sensational public inquiries of that era. Because essentially it was crimes committed by the state on the justification of national security, exposing servicemen and women to high levels of radiation that in some cases killed people.

• 1:05:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's, that's the history and that's the backdrop of, you know, some of these interesting UFO stories where we do have this well documented, you know, nuclear connection. You've interviewed Robert Hastings. I've interviewed Robert Hastings. And I do think it's interesting with this, with this Malgrah case, I think there's a lot of circumstantial evidence to, to say that this, this actually happened. I don't know what you think.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, I'm not prepared to stake my, my hand to my heart and say, I think Harold was telling the truth.

• 1:06:18Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  I'm not prepared to say yet. I think he was lying and part of this has driven my, my, my deep respect and admiration for Pippa.

• 1:06:26Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  And I, I do feel where the way Douglas did it was quite heartless and malicious.

• 1:06:32Jesse Michels?

  Well.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  In the way that he did it, that so soon after.

• 1:06:36Jesse Michels?

  I agree.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  The death of a, a man who a family are still treasuring. I think it could have been done in a more gentle way. And I had the feeling a little bit too much when I was reading Harold's write up, not Harold's, Douglas's write up. This is Douglas Dean Johnson.

• 1:06:53Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Who wrote an analysis of the claims of Harold Mongren that substantiated the, the allegation that there was a UFO retrieved in the triple blue girl, triple prime blue girl tests in the Pacific. And yes, it is odd that there's no paperwork that substantiates this. But is it possible, for example, that because of the role that Harold was playing, of course, there was no paperwork.

• 1:07:24Jesse Michels?

  Yes. Well, that is the history, historiography of the time, right? We are talking to an audience that probably believes that the CIA had a hand in killing JFK. Then you ask people.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  I have no doubt.

• 1:07:34Jesse Michels?

  No doubt, right? Yeah, they're all sure. And then you ask, okay, so how'd that get coordinated? Who called the shots? And they're like, oh, it's, it's Alan Dulles. Where was Alan Dulles at the time? Was he at the CIA? No, he wasn't. He was at the Brown Brothers Harriman, where he had left the CIA. We're also talking to an audience that is taught, loves to talk about Tim Taylor, this like really interesting character that inserts himself. And Diana Pasulka's life says he's part of the secret space stuff. And where was he working? He was NASA mission controller, but he was also at a federally funded research and development center called Aerospace Corporation. So that is the backdrop, that is the lens through which you have to understand that this guy is working at the Institute of Defense Analysis, another federally funded.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  Which I'm told by my intelligence friends is used as a front.

• 1:08:21Jesse Michels?

  It is used as a front. He said in a 2024 interview with Robert Laird, I was, the cover was that I was at the IDA. But in fact, I was actually helping the Joint Chiefs in the Pentagon.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  I know he couldn't say this and, and other people we both know can't reveal that they're CIA as well. But do you think it's possible Harold was CIA?

• 1:08:43Jesse Michels?

  I do, and, and I'm going to be coming out with a more extensive video on this. Because I think it's important to say, and I, I actually wanted to say it as part of the story, but I wanted to respect his sort of gentlemanly desire to sort of keep it shut at the end. But you, okay, here are a few, a few fun facts. If you watched that interview I did with him, he says, I was best friends with Tom Farmer, happened to be the GC, the general counsel of the CIA. He says, you know, oh, I was living at Nabokov's house. And then Pippa says, yeah, there's all these CIA connections with Nabokov. He says, he, he helped create the presidential daily brief, which is a CIA thing, like over, I was holding Paul Mellon's walking stick. You think he bought that at a yard sale?

• 1:09:27Jesse Michels?

  Paul Mellon founded the CIA. So this is really important because a lot of the Douglas Dean Johnson, you know, debunk is like, I spoke to an archivist here. I spoke to a person here and they didn't know him. But, but, but the, the crux of it, the heart of it is he didn't have a Q clearance. If that Q clearance came through him being part of the CIA, which he was part of the CIA, you wouldn't be able to query it. It wouldn't be in some FBI lawyer request.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  It wouldn't be written down in a file and released to the public.

• 1:09:55Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely not.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  One of the things you can make a discretionary thing to do is to, is to redact any evidence that somebody held at Q clearance.

• 1:10:02Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Because the fact of somebody. Holding a Q clearance is in and of itself potentially compromising a special access program.

• 1:10:09Jesse Michels?

  Yes, totally. And the Institute of Defense Analysis has been formally, even on paper, involved in every single missile defense program after Blue Gill. So Stratech to THAAD and AEGIS now to, you know, Star Wars in the eighties. I D A has its fingerprints over all of it. Not to mention, you'd appreciate this. Have you spoken to Bob Jacobs ever? Sixty four?

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, many times, yeah.

• 1:10:32Jesse Michels?

  So yeah, I'm sure you have some great content with him. He's a really believable guy, in my opinion. He was deleted by the government. And then, you know, Mansman, his major in the Air Force.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  What a brave act by Mansman.

• 1:10:44Jesse Michels?

  To go back and say.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  This is a guy, just to explain to our audience, this is a guy, Bob Jacobs, who, as a young captain in the US Air Force, was asked to photograph a fairly mundane launch of an ICBM test prototype missile from Edwards Air Force Base. In the course of the launch of that missile, they didn't know it at the time, but when they reviewed the film footage, there is a UFO circling the warhead and shooting at it with a laser beam. And of course, the usual suspects attacked him when he came public in Omni Magazine in the seventies and basically said he'd seen this and said, that's just a load of nonsense. And to his great credit, I love the, one of the things I, I think we often,

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  we tend, I certainly do in the media, you tend to assume the worst about all military and all intelligence. But the thing I've learned, especially from reporting from war zones, is there really is an honor in the American officer class. And these men and women are inculcated with a decency that is drilled into them. It's a character thing to be truthful. And so the commanding officer of Bob Jacobs.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  He'd been there when they'd watched this film.

• 1:12:00Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  And Bob asked him for support and he supported him.

• 1:12:04Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  And verified that that's exactly what happened. And that these two, I think CIA guys had basically told them to shut up about it.

• 1:12:12Jesse Michels?

  That's exactly right. And so the, the update here, why Bob Jacobs is related at all to Malmgren is people don't know this. I have footage of Bob Jacobs. Bob Jacobs was stationed at Johnston at Toll, but in 1963, so a year after Blue Gill. Bob, you had such an interesting experience at Vandenberg in 64. I didn't realize you were actually stationed at the Marshall Islands before that and that you were involved in the Operation Fishbowl tests. Is that right?

• 1:12:40Speaker 05

  First of all, I was officer in charge of optical instrumentation at Vandenberg, the 13th United Photo Squadron. As such, we were charged with high speed assortmentation photography of every single missile, missile launched down the Western Test Range. We had a detachment at Johnston Island in the Marshalls. And I was sent down there for a period of time and I believe it was November of 1963, not 62. The scuttle up the time by every single person on that island. When I got there, this was engineers, technicians, my airmen that had been down there before me. We were told that what happened is the, the Soviets had launched a nuke into orbit up above us.

• 1:13:25Speaker 05

  And JFK told Khrushchev, take that down. Khrushchev said, I won't do it. JFK said, then we'll shoot it down. And Khrushchev said, you don't have the technology to do that. We were down there, according to the common talk at the time, to shoot down that nuclear missile, that nuclear weapon in orbit. I was told that, that that launch had happened and that several things had happened because of it. First of all, something had fallen down toward the island from that explosion. Explosion lit up the entire South Pacific and, and caused all sorts of alarm and reports of UFOs and so on.

• 1:14:10Speaker 05

  And something had been recovered. I was never told what it was.

• 1:14:14Jesse Michels?

  So that's fascinating. I actually want to be clear. The incident that I'm referring to is the Blue Gill Triple Prime Test, which is at the end of Operation Fishbowl in October of 1962. It's October 26th, so it's during the Cuban Missile Crisis. And so you're saying that the kind of rumors at the time, you know, at the bar sort of thing, uh, were that Soviet warhead was actually knocked out of the sky as a part of that operation. Is that right?

• 1:14:45Speaker 05

  That's what I understand, yes.

• 1:14:47Jesse Michels?

  But here's what's interesting. We've never had nukes in space.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:14:51Jesse Michels?

  And I, not to my knowledge. So unless there's some double story here where like, you know, we actually did take out a nuke in space, which I don't think we did.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  It sounds like an ex post facto psyop disinformation operation.

• 1:15:03Jesse Michels?

  That's right. But even then, there were rumor, widespread rumors of people on the ground that there was a UFO shoot down that had, that's taken place and the only alternative is a nuke, which obviously isn't true. So I find that very interesting. Along with if there, there were, there was a FOIA request to the National Nuclear Security Administration and it was for everything, you know, all these UFO related acronyms. And this was around Starfish Prime. So it was a little earlier. And, uh, they basically say the responsive records, you know, we, we can't give you any of the responsive records, showing that there are responsive records with those names in them. Um, and it says with the subject matter expert, we have to consult them on this topic or whatever. So there are, there's a lot in my opinion of circumstantial evidence.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, my, I keep on coming back to the fact that if there's a stinky dirty secret, you don't write it down.

• 1:15:54Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  And if, if Harold, as he alleged, was working, for example, in the, um, the White House undercover.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  They wouldn't put his name in the address book. You know, I'm still keeping it open in mind and I think it's slightly naive to think that everything would be written down.

• 1:16:14Jesse Michels?

  Well, I've also seen his diaries, which are now in a safe place and they are backed up, so don't mess with them. And I have seen a lot of meetings between Harold Malmgren and Richard Bissell.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:16:27Jesse Michels?

  In the diary, Richard Bissell, who founded Area 51, mayor of Area 51.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  And it was key to Harold Malmgren's claims that he was read into the existence of the legacy UAP retrieval program by Richard Bissell.

• 1:16:41Jesse Michels?

  There you go. Yeah.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Who went on to become a deputy director of the CIA.

• 1:16:44Jesse Michels?

  That's right. He went on to become the number two at the CIA. So fascinating. You know, along the lines of what we were talking about earlier, you've probably met more people in and around these programs than anybody else alive from the outside.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Please don't say that too loudly.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny, when I came through on the weekend to come here, I was actually nervous. I've never been nervous coming into the US before, but there's been a lot of stories in the Australian press about young people who were just turned away by border protection for no good reason and harassed for no good reason. And there's been a change of culture at the border. And I have to admit, I had my computer on auto delete if it was open.

• 1:17:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  When I came through customs.

• 1:17:36Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  And I was ready to go live on national television if I was detained by border protection.

• 1:17:42Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Which actually happened to me after I did the Grush story.

• 1:17:46Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. After I did the Grush story, I was detained and held by CBP.

• 1:17:50Jesse Michels?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  And a mutual friend of ours made some inquiries and confirmed that there'd been some kind of a flag put on my file.

• 1:18:00Jesse Michels?

  I don't believe it.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, it was so high level, they couldn't access it. But basically, somebody, I suspect from the agency, had flagged, we want to know when Coulthart comes through next and let's cause them some mischief. And I have to admit, we have a youth from Australia tearing somebody a new asshole. I just wasn't going to put up with it. And I very. I summoned my anger and basically yelled at border protection and said, I strongly advise that you get on the phone, whoever it is that's flagged me, contact them now or tell them I will be going live on television in about 10 minutes to talk about the fact that I'm being illegally held. I have a valid visa. You have no good reason to hold me. If you want to fight, you can have

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  one. And I was let out.

• 1:18:48Jesse Michels?

  Good for you, man. Well, I think you're, hopefully you're protected and you're protected by the, by the public. Cause I think.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Well, it's funny. I look, I must confess, I've been quite humbled coming to where we are, which is a UFO.

• 1:18:59Jesse Michels?

  I'm sure everybody here knows who you are.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  I've been mobbed.

• 1:19:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I believe it.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  And, and it's funny, my, my wife and children think it's hilarious that, that there is this fandom. There's even a guy, God bless him, in Germany, who's done a three dimensional model of me with far too much hair, which is quite flattering. It doesn't show the gut and it doesn't show the lack of hair. And my wife and children just wanted to know whether it had a bobble head like this, so we could stick it on the front of the car.

• 1:19:25Jesse Michels?

  Oh my God, that's amazing. That's hilarious.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  But, you know, I'm, I'm really touched by the fact that people care about this issue. And, and just to make it serious for a moment, um, the issue is still ridiculed in much of the British style, English language, Australasian press. You know, I get mocked and ridiculed by my journalist colleagues because I take UFOs seriously, you know, and people will pejoratively sneer, how's your UFO obsession, Ross? Or there's actually a national broadcaster, the ABC in Australia, and one pompous twat on that broadcaster said, oh, Ross Coulter, he's been investigating UFOs. He's either completely crazy or he's the best journalist ever.

• 1:20:14Jesse Michels?

  Ah, that's the best compliment that you could ever get.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  But it was a snide, it was deliberately snide because the clear inference was I was a shithouse.

• 1:20:21Jesse Michels?

  You can't be the best journalist.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  I was a shithouse journalist and I was obviously going crazy. But the thing I'm really heartened by is, The degree of interest that sparked me getting hired by News Nation is incredible. When we did the David Grush interview, News Nation, admittedly not at the time a very high rating news channel.

• 1:20:42Jesse Michels?

  No, you brought it on the map.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  It escalated its ratings by nine hundred and ninety percent. That was written up in the industry press.

• 1:20:51Jesse Michels?

  It's amazing.

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  And they still say to me that UFOs, UFOs is the issue that saved the network.

• 1:20:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:58Speaker 00

  Progressive's Accident Response can contact emergency services if you're in a major accident. The only thing worse than someone you love being in an accident is not being able to help them. So Progressive is here to help when you can't. So get peace of mind knowing your loved ones are protected with Progressive's Accident Response. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Limited availability in California. Driver is responsible for emergency and towing charges not covered by the policy. Coverage subject to policy terms and conditions.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  And it's a really interesting issue because the audience, no matter what the mainstream media do to ignore this issue, you know, you've got the doctrinaire attitude of the New York Times. We're not going to do UFO stories. We're going to reject the David Grush story. You know, the Jake, the Jake, the Jake Barber story wouldn't fly in any of the national media.

• 1:21:47Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  I don't think it's had a coverage anywhere.

• 1:21:49Jesse Michels?

  I don't think it's had a coverage, yes.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  And yet, the public, they make it clear they really want this story.

• 1:21:57Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  And they can smell, another journalistic euphemism I'll give you, they can smell a smelly turd when they smell one.

• 1:22:04Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  And this story stinks to high heaven.

• 1:22:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  And they can smell bullshit. And what fascinates me is particularly the younger generation. I'm amazed, I've never had a story, I've always been the kind of old fart of journalism, you know, and doing investigative stories that not many people are really that interested in, but they matter because they're sort of interesting points of principle. This one really captures the imagination of the millennials and the X generation. It's amplifying what I do on News Nation. And I don't know how to use Instagram or TikTok, but there are kids that are making a living out of repackaging my stories on Instagram and TikTok. And my daughters are constantly coming to me saying, Dad, have a look at this. This guy's making a fortune over doing your stories on TikTok. And I go,

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  look, I don't know how to do it. I haven't got time to do it. Good luck to them, you know, it's great. But what it's done is it's generated this massive audience.

• 1:23:03Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  And I'm not trying not to sound boastful, but you know, we're routinely getting millions of views for stories that frankly, I'm genuinely surprised and excited and interested that people are watching them.

• 1:23:16Jesse Michels?

  Well, you're doing an amazing job. And just a recent one, which I was watching in preparation for this, and I was so fascinated by is you were in Sedona, Arizona.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:23:27Jesse Michels?

  And it was like, if you watch, watch this video, it is the most mind blowing video ever.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Let me tell you, let me tell you, I am in no doubt whatsoever, Jesse, that there is a deep underground military bunker that was built in the 1950s

• 1:23:42Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  under Secret Mountain. That's what it's called. It's the hilarious thing. It's somebody's secret joke. It's called Secret Mountain.

• 1:23:49Jesse Michels?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Near Sedona. It's within five, seven kilometers of Sedona. And more importantly, there's a place called Secret Canyon, where there's allegedly a portal, some kind of interdimensional portal. And I thought all of this was just crazy nonsense.

• 1:24:05Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  But there are incredibly brave and super, super interesting people, Jeremiah Horstman and his wife Alexandra particularly, who live in Sedona, and they've been doing some really clever on the ground research.

• 1:24:21Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  And one of the things we did, a lot of the stuff we got, as so often happens, you can't put it in the story because you can't get these people to go on camera.

• 1:24:30Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  But there was a number of people who would privately admit that they'd been walking in what is public land, public parkland, and they'd be stopped by men with guns, men in uniform with, with automatic weapons, clearly highly trained, elite soldiers, probably tier one operatives from the way they moved. And they would basically order people, go away or we will kill you. No, no mucking around. And there are sightings, numerous sightings of what we saw. I saw it with my own eyes. I was told that the best time of night is around about one thirty in the morning. And if you looked at a particular place over Secret Mountain,

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  you would see this big orb being escorted by helicopters rising from behind Secret Mountain. So I was skeptical, but we went out with a local lady, Melinda Leslie, who has some good quality military grade night vision goggles. And we watched at one thirty in the morning and sure enough,

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  up comes this beautiful golden orb, gigantic. It pulses, it's plasmatic. It slowly moves off and the way it moved, you couldn't tell if it's because it got smaller or if it went so fast that it just disappeared so quickly. But it just disappeared. And they were, they were being escorted by military Black Hawk helicopters. Dozens of them. I mean, the helicopter fuel bill alone for the evening that we're watching them must have been somewhere between fifty to a hundred thousand dollars. Somebody is paying huge money to operate

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  orbs with no visible means of propulsion over Secret Mountain in Sedona. And it's funny because one of the people told us that if you want to hide something, you hide it in plain sight.

• 1:26:30Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  And that's the best way to describe what's going on in what I think is happening in Sedona. And I

• 1:26:37Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that's NHI, non-human? Do you think it's man-made?

• 1:26:41Speaker 01

  I mean, there are allegations that that base is NHI. I've had people who are psionic tell me that they have detected NHI in that area.

• 1:26:50Jesse Michels?

  Sedona is also a strange place. It's a place everybody says, when you go, weird stuff happens.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it does. And I'd never expected to see such overt displays of obviously anomalous technology.

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  In company with obviously military style aircraft.

• 1:27:13Jesse Michels?

  And you show footage, it's which is amazing. And then you also show all these sort of logical fallacies of the cover story where it's like, I think there's like a contract between Northern Arizona University.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:23Jesse Michels?

  But like, none of the professors ever show up.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  No, and it's and it's funny because what we're talking about is the Bradshaw Ranch.

• 1:27:30Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  There's allegedly a portal in the Bradshaw Ranch that was seen by the former owner of the ranch, Linda Bradshaw, and she actually took photographs of it. And it opened up in a particular area of the ground around that ranch, which just so happens to be the area that's fenced off. And we noticed that there is a tower in the middle of that area. This is supposedly a deserted ranch. There's nobody there, there's no electrical power, and there's solar panels on this post that has a camera. Now, if you're protecting the security of what is supposedly an academic research institution, you have the camera pointed out

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  so that you can see people coming from the outside.

• 1:28:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  But you know where the camera's pointing?

• 1:28:20Jesse Michels?

  Where?

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  It's pointing exactly at the point where Linda Bradshaw says she saw the portal. And then the other thing we noticed when we were there, and this was picked up by my friend Paul, who's an Australian ground penetrating radar operator. He, he heard a humming. And he kicks a bush aside and there's this gigantic three-phase power power box with a cable definitely going into the ground.

• 1:28:46Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  Three-phase power and it's humming. And then we walk a bit further around and there's another one. And there's massive amounts of electrical power going into the ground under Bradshaw Ranch. And we didn't put this in the feature-length film that we put to air on primetime, but it runs in the full-length interview with Paul, my friend.

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  He did a ground penetrating radar check on the road around Bradshaw Ranch. And we found a fifty foot wide reinforced steel concrete highly visible on ground penetrating radar. Literally just under the ground.

• 1:29:27Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm in no doubt whatsoever, it's there.

• 1:29:30Jesse Michels?

  Can you get down there?

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I was half tempted to get a shovel and start digging, you know. But the, the interesting thing is, um, the other thing we, we, we learned about was there's an egress point into this whole secret facility called the Clarkdale Cement Plant. And the weird thing about it is it's nowhere near Secret Mountain.

• 1:29:51Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  It's halfway between two mountain ranges. But it, if you run a direct line between those two mountain ranges and put it through Bradshaw Ranch where we know there's a tunnel, or at least we picked up the tunnel. And if you match the walls of the tunnel with where it goes, it goes directly

• 1:30:09Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  to the Clarkdale Cement Plant. And one of the things we heard about from locals was that twenty years ago, the drilling was so intense that things were shaking on their bookshelves. And they were obviously tunneling underneath the village at Clarkdale where these people live. And people were even compensated for damage.

• 1:30:30Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  And the, you know, I mean, the, I don't understand as a journalist. I mean, I've been taught journalism to do the work on the ground and go and ask the question. Don't accept what you're told by some defence PR flunky. Go in and check and, and do the basic checking. And I think the interesting thing is that this is all coming out at a time in journalism where sadly investigative journalism is in serious decline.

• 1:31:00Jesse Michels?

  It is.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Even the great masthead newspapers like the New York Times, the Wash Post, the LA Times, the Boston Globe, the Baltimore Sun, papers I grew up, like, I didn't have Basity rollers on my wall. I used to paste up big newspaper investigations. That's what I always wanted to be and, um. It's sad because that era of great big budget investigative journalism where they would deploy teams of people to go and investigate stuff, it's well and truly over. And the big unspoken secret about the New York Times is even the New York Times doesn't have the resources to do this kind of journalism. But all you need to do, if I was the editor of a newspaper today, I would put ten days into deploying a couple of investigative

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  journalists to go up from Phoenix and have a look at what I saw in Sedona. And you will find a deep underground military facility that is highly protected, has hydraulically operated doors in the side of mountainsides, and is secretly operating what I suspect is non-human technology.

• 1:32:04Jesse Michels?

  It's amazing. And it corroborates, you know, Larry Saunders, who wrote a book about deep underground military bases.

• 1:32:11Speaker 01

  Richard Saunders.

• 1:32:11Jesse Michels?

  Richard Saunders, sorry, thank you. And Catherine Austin Fitz, who talks about large, you know, trillions of dollars missing from the federal budget, from the DOD budget, to go towards these, these projects. So, and then Nat Kobitz's story, another story, Randy Anderson's story, so.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  At what point, though, do, I mean, this is the thing I don't get. I really don't get it. It's almost like there's a willful blindness in, because why do we expect the mainstream media to follow this? Because they should.

• 1:32:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. No, they, they really should. It's like the most interesting, important thing. And it's, if you talk about like an Archimedes lever, like the point of most leverage, I mean, you can cover like local griffs, right? But why don't you cover like the trillions of dollars missing from the, from the DOD's budget? Or why don't you, you know, or this stuff?

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  No, I love that quote. And it's a true quote. I actually dug it out when I was writing my book, that Donald Rumsfeld admitted that there was something, is it 23 trillion dollars missing from the defense budget?

• 1:33:10Jesse Michels?

  I think he said 2.1 trillion, missing in an audit, the day before nine 11 happened.

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, the day before nine 11. Trillions of dollars disappearing from the American defense budget.

• 1:33:19Jesse Michels?

  That's right. Documented.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  And that's actually one thing I really liked about what Doge was doing.

• 1:33:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  That Musk was basically saying. Why the hell do you not have the acquittal numbering that allows you to reconcile what this money is for?

• 1:33:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  With where it's being spent?

• 1:33:37Jesse Michels?

  Well, there was an amazing, I think it was like Babylon B, like headline or something, and it was Elon Musk leaves job of making government more efficient for easier job of allowing humans to occupy more, which is like, this guy doesn't give up on anything, you know? A successful car company hadn't been built in the US since like the nineteen teens or something. And you have him build Tesla, you have him single-handedly resuscitate, you know, a version of NASA with SpaceX. And, and, and he gives up with government efficiency.

• 1:34:10Speaker 01

  I had to interview Elon in twenty fifteen.

• 1:34:13Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. I didn't know that.

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  Sixty minutes.

• 1:34:15Jesse Michels?

  Wow. How was that?

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  Well, it was funny because I honestly, genuinely had the feeling that like one percent of his brain was answering my questions. The other ninety nine percent was working on another problem. But the thing I was really impressed with was he, he was excited to show me around the SpaceX factory in LA. Because that was where they were building the new rockets. And a lot of the people in SpaceX, but particularly in the Tesla factory right next door are Aussies. Because the Australians had laid off all of their car industry. We completely destroyed in an act of utter stupidity, our entire car industry. And so a lot of those engineers went to work for Elon and he loved Aussie engineers.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  But the thing I was really impressed with was he knew more about every aspect of the production line than anybody that he was showing us that day. And it wasn't some big performance. He really did know. And he was asking about metal tolerances and, you know, he really knew his stuff. Every aspect of that production line, he knew intimately. And you could see he had everybody on his toes. And frankly, That's if you're gonna be running a rocket business or an electric car business, that's exactly the kind of propriety you want.

• 1:35:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. No, it's, it's, he's incredibly impressive. He has a unique mind and ability to, to make things happen.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Albeit, albeit, I'm sure he's probably highly annoying to live with.

• 1:35:45Jesse Michels?

  I'm sure, and probably hiding something when it comes to UFO issue because why?

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  I think he's been written.

• 1:35:50Jesse Michels?

  I think he has to.

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  I've been told he's been written.

• 1:35:53Jesse Michels?

  Uh, yeah, I, I think so too. Um, speaking of which, speaking of high level people that you've spoken to, you were interviewed by Don Jr. By the son of the sitting president before you broke the Jake Barber story. What was that like? And did it give you any hope as far as American movement on disclosure at the highest level?

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  If, if Don Trump senior listens to his son, Don Trump junior is very engaged and interested in UFOs. And in a, in a really well-informed way as well. I mean, uh, he's been briefed by a lot of people. And there's been a lot of, well, not a lot, but there's been multiple secret briefings of the Trump camp before they came into government. And it's interesting because I am persuaded, not at the moment though I'm seeing any action, but I am persuaded that people like Tulsi Gabbard, Nash Patel and the FBI. Tulsi, of course, is the DNI, the Director of National Intelligence, um, John Ratcliffe at the CIA.

• 1:36:53Speaker 01

  These are all people who've previously expressed a strong desire to get to the truth of the UAP mystery. And I don't think it's any coincidence that, um, Representative Anna Paulina Luna, when she was tweeting earlier this week about what a hopeless cause arrow is, that's the Pentagon UFO Investigation Office.

• 1:37:16Jesse Michels?

  Good for her.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  She, she made the observation that they were obviously a waste of money and should be defunded. She implied that the money should go to someone else. And I think that's the FBI she's talking about.

• 1:37:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  Cause I'm told that the briefing that the FBI gave in Congress really blew people away. And watch that FBI ongoing investigation. I've, I've dealt with some of the people on the investigation team.

• 1:37:41Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  And I like G men. They're, they're like dogs on a bone.

• 1:37:46Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  And, and they're looking at crimes.

• 1:37:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  Because ultimately, if what we're talking about here is true, David Grush.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  Jake Barber, they have insinuated and alleged outright in Jake's case that people have been murdered.

• 1:38:02Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  To protect this secret.

• 1:38:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  It's a capital crime.

• 1:38:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  There are people who I suspect are very nervous right now in the legacy program because they are under active FBI investigation.

• 1:38:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I wonder what the mentality is of somebody.

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  Arrogance.

• 1:38:20Jesse Michels?

  Or yeah, probably.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  Smug arrogance. I have no doubt they think they're gonna get away with it.

• 1:38:23Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  And you know what?

• 1:38:25Jesse Michels?

  Why?

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  They probably will.

• 1:38:27Jesse Michels?

  Oh, no, don't say that.

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  No, I'm pretty bleak. I, I, I, I'm not, I actually had an argument earlier on today, actually. Well, not an argument, but a free and frank exchange of views.

• 1:38:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  A lawyer who's been liaising with Congress.

• 1:38:41Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  Um, and they were having a bit of go at me because I, I talked about how I'm talking to legacy program whistleblowers who want to come forward.

• 1:38:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:51Speaker 01

  But they're wary of coming forward and they took a swipe at me and basically said, we've got all these protections in Congress, you should bring them in and encourage them to come in. And I said, well, hang on a bloody moment. Look at what they've done with David Grush's allegations.

• 1:39:06Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  Sweet FA.

• 1:39:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  You know, David gave them first hand, direct information from his sources of where to look, where to find the spacecraft.

• 1:39:16Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:39:17Speaker 01

  Where to literally go and open the door. Oh, by the way, there's a, there's a spacecraft recovered from Aztec.

• 1:39:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  Open this door. Oh yeah, that's the one from Kingman.

• 1:39:25Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  You know, who's the person in charge? What's the title of the program? What's the code name? He gave them chapter and verse. How many subpoenas have been issued Senate Select Committee for Intelligence for any of that information?

• 1:39:39Jesse Michels?

  Nada. So crazy.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  Fucking nada. And so I don't think Congress is doing its job and frankly, I do get the impression that congressional staffers are captive to the defense establishment.

• 1:39:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I mean, that feels right. I mean, the last time around, the UAPDA was killed by Mike Turner.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:56Jesse Michels?

  Where like, you know, his largest donors were all defensive.

• 1:39:59Speaker 01

  No, but I mean, it's funny because I mean, a lot of the work is done in this preliminary investigation of allegations made by people like David Grush, by people like Lua Lazzondo, people like Jake Barber. When they've gone in and given evidence in camera, in skiffs, as they all have done to the Congress, the people that have been sitting there have been staffers. And they're good people. They're well-intentioned good people. But one of the things Jake Barber told me when he was um giving his direct evidence of the Legacy Programme, first-person evidence. I mean, people say, where's the evidence? The first-person evidence of Jake Barber was given to the Senate Select Committee for Intelligence.

• 1:40:43Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  And um one of the staffers on that committee was concerned for his own safety.

• 1:40:51Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  And asked Jake, are you able to help me get security because somebody from the Defence Department is ordering helicopters to fly across and over my home? They're harassing my home. And that's the kind of thing that the Defence Department was doing. They were buzzing a guy with Black Hawk helicopters just hovering over his home as an act of intimidation. A staffer working for the Congress.

• 1:41:15Jesse Michels?

  I know exactly who you're talking about, and he was providing a pipeline of Legacy operators to uh basically uh talk to the Senate, the Senate Committee on Intelligence.

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  So I'm not blaming the staffers because these people are intimidated. They have families too.

• 1:41:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:32Speaker 01

  And I don't think the public realised that this is how the game is being played. You've got a vast national security state, and it is truly a deep state protecting itself.

• 1:41:43Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:41:44Speaker 01

  Its self-interest, misusing the resources of the state, your money, your taxpayer dollars, to essentially bully and intimidate, and in some cases murder people.

• 1:41:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  It's, and that's where I sort of go, there are so many times when I sit back in this story and I go, hell's bells, this is like a thriller. It's like a John Grisham thriller.

• 1:42:05Jesse Michels?

  Truly.

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  But it's true.

• 1:42:06Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:42:07Speaker 01

  And it's being ignored by the premier national security reporters of the land.

• 1:42:14Speaker 01

  I mean, any sane, rational editor who has an ounce of journalistic respect for himself in his bones would deploy staff to at least go and check out the basic allegations.

• 1:42:27Jesse Michels?

  See if the 170 odd Q cleared, you know, people seeing UFOs around our most sensitive sites, shutting them down in certain cases, might be somewhat credible. Like, maybe, maybe check that out. Yeah, it's crazy.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  But you know what I'm enjoying? I'm enjoying the tyranny of the internet, the fact that you and I are actually generating programs. In your case, you're actually making a living by the looks of it, doing stories on this phenomenon and reporting on it. And it's interesting because that proves to me there is an audience there that want this stuff.

• 1:43:00Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah. There, there, there really is. And I think it resonates deeply with what they intuit about reality themselves, which is that there's more and that, you know, there, there have been sort of secret programs around these things hidden from them for a very long time. And, and with AI and with the internet, you can vigilante corroborate and research a lot of this stuff yourself. And so I think people are waking up post-pandemic as much as I share your pessimism around government action on the topic. I do think the, the larger, you know, public is waking up to these broader realities and that's exciting.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  I'll tell you this, if you accept psionics, which of course the debunkers won't, they're saying disclosure is coming.

• 1:43:44Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. Wow.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:46Jesse Michels?

  Well, that it.

• 1:43:47Speaker 01

  There's a perturbation in the force, Luke.

• 1:43:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, hey, I think the government itself accepts psionics as we know through their, their remote viewing programs that they.

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, that's the other double think, you know, we're, we're told and there's a whole movie made about it debunking the idea of telepathy and psychics and psionics. And yet you've only got to read the CIA gateway documents in the CIA files and they show that that's actually not true.

• 1:44:13Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  That, that, that essentially. Everybody took it very, very seriously. And I've spoken to people who've confirmed that there is still an ongoing psionic operation being run in the Pentagon.

• 1:44:26Jesse Michels?

  Clearly. Well, the, the nominal reason for shutting it down in 1995 was there was only offense. There was no defense. Why would you shut a program down where there's still offense and it's still working?

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:44:39Jesse Michels?

  Makes no sense.

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I, I just, I mean, I don't know why people buy this, you know? Is it because they're so distracted covering the Ukraine war? Or, uh, I mean, I don't get it. I mean, at what point did the lack of curiosity begin?

• 1:44:55Jesse Michels?

  I don't know. Well, it's something I've found anecdotally that I wonder if this is in accordance with, with your experience. Meeting a lot of these guys with long government histories and serious credentials, they're often more conspiratorial than people in the public. You expect, you, you're a conspiracy theorist to be this tinfoil hat, you know, they live in their mom's basement or something. They're like, they're watching crazy shit on the news. But no, this is, these, these people have serious credentials. Their version of reality is way weirder than the average person in public's reality.

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it, it's, it's how I felt when I started getting into psionics. Because one of the first things that one of my sources in that Georgetown pub back in probably 2018 told me was it's all about consciousness.

• 1:45:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  And I had no idea what he was talking about.

• 1:45:50Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  And it, it really has taken me probably seven years to actually begin to understand. And now I'm realizing more and more, it's all about consciousness.

• 1:46:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:02Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 1:46:02Jesse Michels?

  I agree. So much is downstream of that. Well, Ross, this has been an honor. I have one final question before, before you, before you go. Is there anything? Joe Rogan just talked about this. Everybody talks about this amazing bombshell thing that you reported on. You know, I'm going to say.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:19Jesse Michels?

  This UFO possibly found in, uh, uh, that, that, that they needed to build a bunker around that was like, you know, a mile plus long. Anything you can say about it?

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  I do not resile from saying what I've said previously, which is that there is. A buried or at least built upon UFO that was too big to move.

• 1:46:44Jesse Michels?

  And that's it.

• 1:46:46Speaker 01

  I, I, I, part, part of the reason it's actually, I, I, it's weird just how angry people get because I can't reveal it. And there seems to be this view in U A P social commentary that I'm obliged to reveal everything.

• 1:47:02Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  And if I don't reveal everything, then I'm being irresponsible and I'm not helping the disclosure cause. And one of the things that was steeped into me as a journalist, I've been privy because people started leaking to me things that they probably shouldn't have done to secrets where, including from America, I should not have them.

• 1:47:24Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm.

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  And I've been shocked that I've had these things in my hand and I've gone, holy hell. And in some cases I've burnt them.

• 1:47:33Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  But the, the worst one for me was when I covered a, um, I, I was, I was made aware that Australia was deploying special forces troops into, um, the Iraq desert.

• 1:47:45Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  Probably three weeks before the war started. And a friendly special forces operator told me that this was happening. And I initially got really excited and I actually went and spoke to a, an editor about it and said, look, I've, I've got this story. I mean, they're deploying S A S troops. We're going in, you know, we're going to be in the Western Desert. And then we kind of looked at each other and went, nah.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  And, and I spoke later on, I did a story with the Australian S A S about what they'd done in the Western Desert. And I asked one of the guys who'd been there, if I'd revealed that, what would have happened? And he said, we would have been killed.

• 1:48:24Jesse Michels?

  Oh my God. Well, there you go.

• 1:48:26Speaker 01

  And, and, and so i- in the case of the buried UFO,

• 1:48:30Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:31Speaker 01

  I can't reveal because if I reveal why I say this, it would compromise it. It's a very sensitive place.

• 1:48:38Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  That should be enough of a guide for you.

• 1:48:41Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:41Speaker 01

  And to.

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  Reveal the full extent of what I know would compromise the lives of young men and women who are doing good things for America, completely separate from the UAP program. And they're probably oblivious to what's sitting downstairs.

• 1:48:57Jesse Michels?

  That's as valid a reason as ever. And it also, you know, to, to, to argue on your behalf against the, the people that say that's bad for disclosure, you're going to torpedo your relationships. If you, you know, are speaking to somebody, they're never going to speak to you again if you reveal something that you promised not to. So.

• 1:49:13Speaker 01

  Because I, I actually take it as a journalistic responsibility not to reveal something if it's going to compromise the safety of your country or my country.

• 1:49:21Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  And, and, you know, we are, we're in, I, I lie in bed at night worried about how dangerous things are at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Israel launched a preemptive attack on Iran in the next few weeks.

• 1:49:35Jesse Michels?

  I wouldn't either. It's a, it's a, the world's in a freaky place. And I think, I don't know if you have this kind of mind dialectic around the UFO issue, but I think about that. I'm like, oh, maybe UFOs don't matter. The world's going to blow up. And then I say, well, if the world's going to blow up, if there were ever a time to care about UFOs and to throw a hail Mary.

• 1:49:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:52Jesse Michels?

  It would be now.

• 1:49:54Speaker 01

  Well, one of the things I asked somebody very recently was, is there some kind of super weapon that we've got stashed away? Because I've heard this rumor, and look, to be honest with you, it's only rumor. It's people who probably wouldn't really know for sure, but they've told me secondhand stuff suggesting that the US has developed what are called scalar weapons.

• 1:50:16Jesse Michels?

  Well, you heard the Michael Kratia statement.

• 1:50:18Speaker 04

  But we are capable of so much more. Our technologies permit us to manipulate time and space. They lead distance annihilated.

• 1:50:27Jesse Michels?

  Which, you know, he's in an official position and he's.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  And I know, and, and Trump keeps on hinting that the US has a weapon, a super weapon.

• 1:50:34Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 1:50:35Speaker 01

  That they haven't revealed yet. But notice Putin has said exactly the same thing.

• 1:50:40Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:50:41Speaker 01

  And I have been told that the Russians have developed extraordinary weaponry. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if. One of the primary reasons for the secrecy is because each nation thinks that they have an advantage with scaler weapons, but the reality is, none of them do.

• 1:50:59Jesse Michels?

  Right. Oh, wow. That's scary that there's some sub Rosa Manhattan Project 2.0 going on.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm sure there's a Manhattan Project 2.0 going.

• 1:51:07Jesse Michels?

  Well, you have these rumors that you had Kommler Stab in Nazi Germany where they were doing kind of black world nuclear stuff.

• 1:51:13Speaker 01

  Well, I'll tell you one thing. I'm sorry, we were trying to finish, but I'll just give you this little tip.

• 1:51:17Jesse Michels?

  We talked forever. Yeah.

• 1:51:18Speaker 01

  There's a friend of mine who speaks to a lot of astronauts and to people who supervised astronauts. And one story that came up was that in the early days of Glasnost, when Russia and America were kind of friends again, Russia imparted to America that it was in possession of a crashed craft. And there was an astronaut, a known astronaut, still alive, deployed to go and, actually, I don't know if he's still alive, to go and assist in the retrieval. And a lot has changed in the last, what, 25 years, 30 years since the end of the Cold

• 1:51:59Speaker 01

  War, 35 years. And it's really interesting because I suspect that there has been collaboration in the distant past between the Americans and the Russians, and that it suited each side to keep quiet about the fact that there is this sub Rosa Manhattan Project going on, where essentially there's a Cold War. There's a battle for possession of and development of non-human technology. And I'm a no doubt whatsoever that that's happening.

• 1:52:31Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's an amazing note to end on, which is, let's hope disclosure happens and these psionic viewers are correct before the world blows up.

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:52:42Jesse Michels?

  Ross, this is an honor, man. It's a long time coming for me. And it's amazing to hear all your, you know, your vast knowledge and all this stuff. And pray for your continued productivity, because you are, you're really doing the Lord's work.

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  Well, vice versa, Jesse. I love your show. And there's plenty of room there for both of us.

• 1:53:01Jesse Michels?

  Awesome. All right. Thanks, Ross.

• 1:53:33Speaker 00

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