The Ovary’s Job Doesn’t End at Menopause: A Top Neuroscientist Explains

In this episode of unPAUSED, Dr. Mary Claire Haver talks with Dr. Jennifer Garrison, a neuroscientist and entrepreneur, about why the ovary should never have been labeled a purely reproductive organ. Dr. Garrison explains that ovaries function like a second brain in the body, sending and receiving chemical signals to nearly every tissue system including the heart, bones, brain, immune system, and metabolism. She walks through her research on the hypothalamus and the brain ovary signaling network, describing how inflammation in this part of the brain may be one of the earliest drivers of aging across the whole body. The conversation covers why the ovary ages roughly two and a half times faster than the rest of the body, a gap that helps explain the health span difference between women and men. Dr. Garrison and Dr. Haver discuss how poor ovarian function shows up across a woman's life, not only at menopause, contributing to conditions like polycystic ovarian syndrome, infertility, early menopause, depression, metabolic disease, and autoimmune disease. They also unpack why autoimmune conditions rise sharply after menopause and why women's immune systems respond differently to viruses than men's. Guest links: Jennifer Garrison, PhD https://www.linkedin.com/in/drjennifergarrison/ (LinkedIn) Jennifer Garrison https://x.com/jenngarrison (X) Jennifer Garrison https://bsky.app/profile/jennifergarrison.bsky.social (Bluesky) Jennifer Garrison https://www.xprize.org/people/dr-jennifer-garrison (X Prize) Jennifer Garrison https://www.theinstitute.com/fellow/jennifer-garrison (The Institute) Books “The New Perimenopause,” https://thepauselife.com/pages/the-new-perimenopause-book?srsltid=AfmBOoqkbc2_wmfEQSfuf1fMT3s-ImuwNhUak8wC4KsEiYhHyNtQgSy5 by Dr. Mary Claire Haver “The New Menopause"⁠ https://www.amazon.com/New-Menopause-Navigating-Through-Hormonal/dp/B0CKBZ4K1Z/ref=sr_1_3?crid=10GNBSGVPDFJZ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.djG88jtefTqLpTg36Li8QIefDxRPHA-WKVyCC9DQ7X71Ad734j96bPWX-yewnsv9Pqm7WCali5P5-h2eixUH_yHkbz1DHy2rQFoQSh7O92HNwttIL_ZBgXVor81D-Z3sbsfBh7JOJXDQwUuhWNnA5LHbsuI1CyhIyjtRm6_DXYJFaWrkYTjJeqJyFBnBZfgTprhlgJe_RZoWH9pOY6S9XzRapnMjnZgOq7PBA7Wy2KM. ZfI9WXwN58225D-i3qDhw4ZlXZO4pt8rPX1nAKiBNHM&dib_tag=se&keywords=perimenopause+book+mary+claire&qid=1775810714&sprefix=perimenopause+book+mary+claire%2Caps%2C511&sr=8-3 by Dr. Mary Claire Haver For full show notes, please click here https://thepauselife.com/blogs/the-unpaused-podcast/the-ovary-s-job-doesn-t-end-at-menopause-a-top-neuroscientist-explains.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  It's primitive how much we know about the female body and particularly about how ovaries function outside of reproduction. But what we do know is what happens when you take ovaries away, right? When they're not there, or when they're not working properly. And based on that, what we can say is that they are across a woman's lifetime, and I don't just mean at midlife and beyond. They are important for promoting health, right? Does that make sense?

• 0:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 0:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. They're important for promoting health, and it's a total misconception to think that ovaries are only important for fertility and menopause. At any age, you know, for a girl who's 10, for a woman who's 90, if your ovaries aren't functioning properly, it uncovers different health risks. And which health risks get uncovered depends on how old are you, what are your environmental exposures, and what are your genetic risk factors, right?

• 1:01Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The views and opinions expressed on UnPaused are those of the talent and guests alone, and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Today, I want to talk to you about something that's going to change the way you understand your own body. I've spent the last few years telling women that their ovaries are not just fertility organs, that what happens to them at midlife ripples into the brain, the bones, the heart, the immune system, and the metabolism. That menopause is not a reproductive event. It is a whole body event. But I'd been telling half the story.

• 1:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I was focused on what happens after the ovary stops working, but I was missing the 20 years before it. I was watching the Menopause Society annual meeting last October, virtually, laptop open, doing what doctors do at conferences. And a scientist came on and said something I had been waiting to hear someone say out loud, "Stop calling the ovaries reproductive organs." I said, "Yes," out loud to no one in my house, because that one sentence explains everything. It explains why the research has lagged. It explains why women's symptoms get dismissed. It explains why menopause care is still treated as optional in medicine. We named the organs wrong.

• 2:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that name shaped 100 years of decisions that came after it. Here's what I want you to take from this episode. One in three women will have a condition tied to poor ovarian function at some point of her life, not just menopause, irregular periods, polycystic ovarian syndrome, infertility, miscarriage, early menopause, depression, metabolic disease, and autoimmune disease. These are not separate problems that just happen to affect women. They are the same story told at different chapters of a woman's life. And the ovary is the thread running through all of it. Write this down. The ovary ages two and a half times faster than the rest of the body.

• 3:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Not twice, two and a half times. By the time most women notice something is wrong, the ovary has been sending distress signals for years. That number is going to change how you think about your 30s, your 40s, and everything that happened in your body before a doctor ever used the word "menopause." I have two daughters. This is the episode I want them to hear before they ever need it. Today's guest is the scientist proving all of this. Dr. Jennifer Garrison is a neuroscientist who studies how the brain talks to the rest of the body and how that changes as we age. She founded the Global Consortium for Reproductive Longevity and Equality, which has put $14.5 million

• 3:58Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  into the hands of 49 scientists across 26 countries to answer questions about the ovary that no one had ever bothered to fund before. She launched the first international conference ever held specifically on reproductive aging. She is building from scratch the scientific foundation that women's health has always deserved and never had. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a board certified obstetrician and gynecologist and certified menopause practitioner. I'm also an adjunct professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Texas Medical Branch. Welcome to UnPaused, the podcast where we cut through the silence and talk about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life.

• 4:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

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• 5:27Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

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• 5:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Dr. Jennifer Garrison, welcome to UnPaused.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 6:03Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So I virtually attended the Menopause Society meeting last October. And before I was watching it, my friends were texting me from the meeting while you were speaking. You said, "Stop calling the ovaries reproductive organs." What did you mean by that?

• 6:20Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, you would think this wouldn't be controversial, but...

• 6:23Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Because I was taught that really the ovaries had very little use outside of reproduction. Like, everything I learned about the ovary was it might get cancer and it's going to give you babies and maybe keep your bones strong, you know.

• 6:36Speaker 00

  Those are all true.

• 6:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  For sure. Those are all true. But ovaries are also important for maintaining general health. And that's really, I mean, honestly, I hadn't thought about my ovaries for one second before I was like 40, except occasionally, like, I hate getting my period and do I want to have children? Those were the two times that my ovaries came up in my four decades of life. But, you know, part of my work and part of my research about nine years ago really took like a left turn into thinking about female health. And when you stop and think about ovaries, they are more than reproductive organs. So they're more than just egg factories. Of course, they're essential for reproduction, no question. But they are necessary for maintaining health,

• 7:19Speaker 00

  beyond bone health, right? They're maintaining heart health, brain health, all kinds of things in your body. So I ask people not to call them reproductive organs because I think that calling them reproductive organs has allowed the medical establishment and pretty much everybody in the world to pigeonhole all of women's health through the lens of fertility forever. And that makes it seem small. But we're talking about the health of half the population. And so, you know, calling them reproductive organs really like just makes it seem too small.

• 7:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm. Gives them a shelf life. So, and you're a neuroscientist.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  I am a neuroscientist.

• 7:58Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So how, walk me through this path of you were studying the brain and how somehow you pivoted to including the ovaries in that conversation?

• 8:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I should say that when I start talking about brains to people and signaling in the brain, most people immediately picture a synapse. Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 8:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So most of our listeners are non-medical.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:19Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So like, let's walk through a little more basic.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. So if you think about your brain as like command central and your body's like a busy city.

• 8:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  Your brain is really dictating what happens everywhere. So it sets up your physiology. And then it keeps everything within a certain range to both keep you alive and to keep you healthy, right? And so most people, when I say synapses, most people think when I talk about brain signaling, they think about like nerves and like wired, like quite literally, I think that, yeah, quite literally, like fiber optic cables running from your brain out to your, right? And we've all seen those pictures. And that is absolutely one of the ways that your nervous system is set up through these wired, physical connections. But your brain also has what I would call like a Wi-Fi signaling system. So your brain can talk to

• 9:09Speaker 00

  other tissues in your body without being physically connected, without those wires. And so there's like hundreds, maybe even thousands of chemicals that your brain uses to communicate. And it's this beautiful, complex, two-way chemical conversation that's happening all the time. And my research was really focused around trying to understand how that chemical conversation changes with age, and how one particular part of your brain, which is called the hypothalamus, we don't have to go too deep into that. But this one part of your brain utilizes Wi-Fi signaling a lot. And that's where the neurons that control energy, fluid homeostasis, circadian rhythms, reproductive function, thermoregulatory center.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  And body temperature regulation, they're all sitting in the same part of your brain and using this Wi-Fi signaling. And as it turns out, when you, when you get older, you know, inflammation increases everywhere in your body with age. I think everyone at this point understands that. Right. We call it inflammaging. But in your brain, it doesn't happen uniformly. It happens in particular hotspots. And one of those hotspots is hypothalamus. Okay. And so when I started my lab 12 years ago now, essentially, we were thinking, like, maybe that increased inflammation of hypothalamus disrupts some of this Wi-Fi signaling. And that might be one of the, like, the first dominoes to fall with respect to systemic aging. Because if you think about what happens during normal aging, what gets disrupted? Energy.

• 10:39Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 10:40Speaker 00

  Fluid, body temperature, reproductive function, circadian rhythms, all of it, right? And that's, that's where my research started. And about nine years ago, we were working on one of these long range signaling molecules. And really, it's just backed us into the reproductive system because it turned out to be mediating conversation between the brain and the reproductive system. And that opened up a whole can of worms, quite literally. I, again, I hadn't really thought about my ovaries for one second. And once you understand how little we know about the female body, it's really hard to look away. And so that, that really pivoted my research in a different direction and focused around just thinking

• 11:25Speaker 00

  about how ovaries, you know, are important for more than just reproduction.

• 11:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Did you get pushback when you wanted to pivot? Because, you know, research doesn't happen in a vacuum. We have to answer to IR keyboards and we have bosses, there's funding involved. This was kind of a breakthrough thing, right?

• 11:44Speaker 00

  Well, I should say that, you know, this was a collective body of work, right? So it's not just me who started working in this space. And there were some people who had already been working in this space, but very few researchers, very few clinicians thinking about it this way.

• 11:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So in layman terms, what did you find that kind of led to this pivot?

• 12:02Speaker 00

  So it was less about what I found and more about just understanding what happens when you take ovaries away. So around the time that we were starting to work on this brain ovary axis, we had a donor come and ask if we'd start a center to study healthy aging in women. And I got on the steering committee for that, ended up helping to build that. It became immediately apparent that there was just nobody working on this question. So a lot of people working on reproductive biology, right? That's a mature field. You're a part of it.

• 12:33Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 12:34Speaker 00

  A lot of people working on aging research and like longevity science, but nobody at that interface. And so that prompted me to start a global consortium that grew out of the institute that I was a part of. And the goal there was to Really jumpstart this new field and to bring scientists, clinicians, everybody who might be a stakeholder in the ecosystem, bring them into the same room and try to move progress in the space because certainly NIH wasn't funding work around this question.

• 13:05Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And to be clear, the project was healthy aging for women.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Which is different than healthy aging for men. I guess we need to give our listeners some background that most of the longevity research, can you explain who it's done on and?

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Well, most of the research in general has been done on male animals in preclinical studies and on male humans in clinical studies. I'm sure you've covered that before.

• 13:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Well, we it's never, I always like to talk about it because it's so important when we talk about why we have such different health outcomes.

• 13:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I I talk about the female body as a puzzle that we haven't yet solved, right? Really, it's shocking when you when you understand how little we know and it is truly because we have generations of data that were collected either in preclinical studies in animals in males or in humans in males. And it's only in the last few decades that that's actually changed, right?

• 14:01Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You said that the ovaries are the architects of health and a pacemaker for aging in the female body. Can you talk about what that means?

• 14:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, so if you buy what I told you about the brain sort of having this wifi signaling system, ovaries also have similar kinds of signals that they send and receive. So they sit at the center of their own complex signaling network. So almost like a second brain in a sense in the female body. And what they're doing is, you know, they're sending messages and receiving messages from almost every tissue in your body. So from your heart and from your bone and your muscle and your brain and your skin and your liver. And, you know, you just go down the line and I want to be clear, we don't understand anything about those conversations. Like we are, it's primitive how much we know about the female body and particularly about how ovaries function outside of reproduction.

• 14:56Speaker 00

  But what we do know is what happens when you take ovaries away, right? When they're not there or when they're not working properly.

• 15:01Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  And based on that, what we can say is that they are across a woman's lifetime. And I don't just mean at midlife and beyond. They are important for promoting health. They're important for promoting health and it's a total misconception to think that ovaries are only important for fertility and menopause. At any age, you know, for a girl who's 10, for a woman who's 90.

• 15:24Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  If your ovaries aren't functioning properly, it uncovers different health risks. And which health risks get uncovered depends on how old are you? What are your environmental exposures and what are your genetic risk factors? Right?

• 15:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Well, let's talk about organ systems and some interactions. So you mentioned the brain. What about ovarian health and brain health? What do we see when ovaries aren't healthy? How does that transmit into brain health?

• 15:49Speaker 00

  So, I mean, depending on how old you are, again, you know, different ages, different health risks. But certainly, you know, at and after menopause, uh, when your ovaries stop working the way they were before.

• 16:00Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  They're not completely kaput. They're still doing something, we just don't know what.

• 16:04Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  Um, but it's very different from what they were doing before. Having that sort of reduced and compromised ovarian function in that period of life can really change your cognitive function. You know, it can change your memory. It can change all sorts of things related to your brain. And like I said, all the neurons that control these, um, we call them homeostats. But these things that keep you alive are there. And when you start to like focus female health through the lens of the brain, suddenly it kind of makes sense. If the neurons that control reproductive function are right next to the neurons that control, and maybe partially overlapping with the neurons that control body temperature regulation.

• 16:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 16:42Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 16:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Hot flash.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  Hot flash.

• 16:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah.

• 16:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What about autoimmune disease? Cause we get

• 16:49Speaker 00

  understudied.

• 16:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So many questions.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  So metabolism

• 16:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  and immune function are really tightly linked to ovarian function. And we know that because, for example, women who have PCOS are more likely to get, they have a higher risk of metabolic disease later in life.

• 17:05Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  And they can pass that risk on to their, their offspring, to their kids. But both male and female kids, right? So there's some through line there, some genetic through line that's important for both males and females. Um, and that, that's true across all of this biology that we're talking about. There's a lot of things where, you know, if we understood sex differences in diseases. That would

• 17:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Meaning the difference between men and women.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 17:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I was taught that the signals coming out of the ovaries are estradiol, seventeen beta hydroxy estradiol, progesterone after ovulation, and some amount of testosterone that we have peripheral conversion as well. And you're saying that's not right.

• 17:42Speaker 00

  Well, that's true. That's absolutely true. Again, like those three things are true. Um, but there's probably there's many other things that are true as well.

• 17:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  The but is that if you buy what I told you about ovaries being at the center of this really complex signaling network, they are producing not just three hormones, but dozens, maybe hundreds of things that can travel over long distances and signal to different tissues in your body. Now, we don't understand those chemical conversations and we don't even necessarily understand or know what all the words are in those conversations. So what all the molecules are. Lots of discovery left to be done there. But you know, if we take a step back and talk about those three hormones that you just mentioned, the word hormone is really just, it's a very nonspecific term that we use to talk about any chemical that can transmit information over long distances.

• 18:35Speaker 00

  That's it in your body. So it could be a protein. It could be a small molecule. In this case, it's a steroid hormone because it has this particular shape to it. It could be a gas. It could be a lipid. It could be a peptide. It could be all sorts of things. Um, and so the universe of potential signaling molecules or communication tools that, you know, your body uses is pretty vast and we have not profiled what's coming from the ovary in any depth.

• 19:04Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So outside of those three, what are some common ones that we might recognize the names of that the ovaries also produce?

• 19:11Speaker 00

  Oh, well, I mean, you know, the signaling molecules that we know about for menstruation. I feel like the menstrual cycle is pretty well understood, right? But there's lots of other things, oxytocin, for example.

• 19:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Produced in the ovary?

• 19:21Speaker 00

  Well, produced in the brain and signaling, yeah, can signal to the ovary. I, I mean, I personally study neuropeptides or bioactive peptides, which most people don't understand are really divergent.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  Compounds, right?

• 19:35Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:36Speaker 00

  Oxytocin is a neuropeptide, but so is GLP-1.

• 19:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  And there are literally hundreds of these things. And so when people are having this conversation right now about peptides.

• 19:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Left and right.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  I'm like, wow, this is crazy because, you know, oxytocin is as different from GLP-1 as, you know, like, I don't know, estradiol is from.

• 19:56Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Insulin.

• 19:56Speaker 00

  Insulin. Yeah, exactly. They're just like completely different things. And so just because they happen to be short chains of amino acids that.

• 20:04Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Bind to receptors.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  That are made a particular way. Yeah, exactly. But when we talk about a hormone, I think it's important to point out whatever it is. So estradiol, for example, but it doesn't do anything by itself.

• 20:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 20:15Speaker 00

  It quite literally doesn't do anything. It basically has to bind to a receptor, you know, like a catcher's mitt on a target tissue or a target cell. There's a whole series of proteins that are necessary to get them made and which proteins are there, you know, you can get different biosynthetic pathways. It becomes this like, kind of morass of complexity, but, you know, it's not unknowable. These are things we can understand. We just quite literally haven't looked.

• 20:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Why do you think that is?

• 20:45Speaker 00

  Do you want me to say the word?

• 20:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  Patriarchy, sexism.

• 20:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay, okay. Let's be fair. Do we understand more about what we think of the male hormones that we have testosterone? Like, do we understand male physiology better? And this whole cascade and chains of signaling going back and forth? Or is it that we have this unique biological transition that men don't have? And so it's less, you know, detrimental to their health?

• 21:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a really good question. And I would say it's probably a little both. I don't, I wouldn't claim that we understand male physiology completely and certainly around reproductive organs, you know, testes and prostate, for example. We've studied that more, but I think there's quite a lot to learn. But, you know, the real difference, I would say.

• 21:32Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  Is that ovaries, which are so important for overall health in females, they are aging faster.

• 21:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  And that is the key, right? So.

• 21:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Two and a half times, right?

• 21:43Speaker 00

  At least.

• 21:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  All right. Let's be clear to listeners. The ovaries are aging two and a half times faster. Than any other organ system.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  At least.

• 21:52Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  In our body.

• 21:53Speaker 00

  At least twice as fast.

• 21:54Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Why?

• 21:55Speaker 00

  Well, if you can answer that question, then we wouldn't be talking. That's the, I would say that's the, that's the biggest, biggest question.

• 22:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  There are people in certain areas of, of the world who say, well, this is nature, God's plan. This is natural. This is meant to happen, but it's not without pathology.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  From a functional standpoint, ovaries are aging faster than the rest of the tissue in your body. And aging does happen in male reproductive organs. It's the difference is that it's really synced up with aging the rest of their bodies. So what, what I mean by that is that if you think about organ function over time, your organs are not aging exactly simultaneously. You know, some things show more signs of aging faster, but if you're lucky enough to live to older ages, most of that decline happens in the last few decades of life. For all of your organs, you know, not totally synchronously, but it's happening like that. And so in the male reproductive system, that aging in those organs is synced up with aging in the rest of the body.

• 22:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 22:50Speaker 00

  And so they don't have this differential in health span that, that we see in females. We all know that women live longer than men.

• 22:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  How many, so I've read four years, six years, what, what's your data say?

• 23:01Speaker 00

  What country, it depends on where you live and it depends on your socioeconomic status. So there's actually, you know,

• 23:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And it depends on if you're a physician, because women physicians don't live longer than.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  Depends on your, your job. Yeah. So it depends on a lot of things, but in every country where it's been measured, even in places where the average lifespan is very low, even in places where lifespan is, is short, women still live longer than men on average, but it really does depend on where you are and your socioeconomic status. There's no question that when we talk about aging, you know, whether or not you, you have a particular level of wealth matters, which is horrifying.

• 23:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 23:39Speaker 00

  If we're lucky enough to live to older ages, we will spend more time at the end of our lives in poor health, suffering from one or more of those age-related diseases. And that is, I call that a differential in health span. So the number of years that you're healthy, if you're female, is shorter than the number of years that you're healthy if you're a man.

• 23:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 23:57Speaker 00

  And that is tied directly to the fact that your ovaries are aging at an accelerated rate. And so you asked why? Like, that is the golden question. If we understood what was driving ovaries, you know, what was it that was causing them to age faster? That would give us a clue about how to change that. And I'm not talking about extending fertility indefinitely. I'm not talking about ending menopause, because menopause is really just talking about menstruation. I'm not interested in having a period for the rest of my life. I don't know about you. But yeah, the the goal is to really think about how to extend health span. That's the goal.

• 24:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So when I opened my menopause practice, you know, I was a straight traditional OBGYN for 25 ish years. And it was a great lovely job. But then when I pivoted and decided I just want to take care of these ladies, all of a sudden, every single one of my patients is in perimenopause and menopause, and they're coming in, you know, usually desperate. They've seen a six, 10 physicians for various things, and no one was taught to really connect the dots hormonally with their sleep disruption, their weight gain, and all the things. So we get them back to functionality. Most of them are in crisis. They're not able to function in the lives they built. Their mental health, cognitive issues usually are the two things that bring them in. And they're very frustrated with weight gain. Then, we start talking

• 25:27Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  about the next 30 to 40 years. And I don't have a lot, I don't any, really, of my patients yet have come in and said they want to be the next Brian Johnson and live 250, 120. You know, they look at what the longevity bros, sorry, are spouting online, and a few of the women, and that has zero interest to them. They don't want to live without their loved ones. Right? They don't want to end up alone for 20 years. They don't want to be a burden on their families. They are so terrified of ending up losing their independence from cognitive decline or physical decline.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that is really the focus. And so by the time they get to me, the ovaries ship has sailed, right? And we're focusing on all the lifestyle things, and maybe hormone therapy, that could be helpful here. And when I look at the data on ovarian life, ovarian health, it still seems to be heavily centered on fertility, giving people the ability to get pregnant easier and at a longer life, because we're delaying childbearing to have kids. I mean, we've just reached Where we have more babies over 40 as a population in the US than under 20. So that's what my patients are interested in is they're very aware, looking at their mothers and grandmothers and the women in their family, how they're aging and they are not interested in what their mothers went through.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  Unfortunately, we're at a stage right now, I mean, it's a good, it's a positive message that we've realized that this is a challenge and everyone has woken up to the idea that we need to think about female physiology, about female health in a different way to consider the female body as a whole system, right? That's like step number one to get medical care, to integrate, you know, your brain health and your heart health and your ovarian health and your bone health and think about them as a, as a whole system and a functioning system that we're

• 27:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  All talk to each other.

• 27:16Speaker 00

  Exactly. That's happening. Obviously, we're in a place where we don't have the answers yet. We are coming from a place where we're generations behind in the data collection. And, you know, that's just where we are. And so we're, we're moving past that and we're starting to like really see discovery in this space, but it's going to take a little while for, for discoveries at the bench to make their way through to women's hands. One of the things that I'm most excited about in my work is to do that, to really think about how to change that path and make it to accelerate it and to, to make it, you know, more efficient. But while we're waiting for those discoveries to trickle down and for us to collect those large scale data sets that we need desperately to understand some of the things that you're asking about.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  Modern medicine does have a lot of solutions that are available now that are not really being applied. I personally, now I'm not a medical doctor, but you are, so maybe you can say this. I think that at 40, every woman should have a cardiovascular workup. Like you should know what your normal is. You should have a baseline to compare to for when you go through perimenopause and menopause because we know that your cardiovascular disease risk is going to

• 28:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Double.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  Double at least when you, when you enter menopause or go through menopause.

• 28:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What, what would you say that workup would be?

• 28:32Speaker 00

  I mean, I personally, especially for someone like, I have, you know, familial cardiovascular disease risk that's pretty high. And so, and I, you know, I did have to fight with my doctor to get this done, but I mean, The whole gamut to

• 28:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Everything.

• 28:47Speaker 00

  VO2 max, not just like a cardiometabolic panel, but like a deep phenotyping of your cholesterol and all of that kind of stuff. Thinking through like if you have a risk to have like a calcium scan, right, to get those baselines.

• 29:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Or angiogram.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  All of it, like all of it. And right now, I think that if I'm not mistaken, the guidelines are for women at 55 to have a full workup and for men at 50. That's probably also too late, but at 55, like

• 29:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Cardio.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  The train has left the station.

• 29:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So they just changed the lipid recommendations.

• 29:20Speaker 00

  Oh, good.

• 29:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So that's just in the last two months and it's much earlier. So they're wanting a full lipid panel, LP, little a, ABOB, which were never included before as young as 40 in women.

• 29:30Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 29:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So we're getting, you know, baby steps, but and we've been doing that in our clinic.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Recognizing the data early.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  So important.

• 29:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I really feel like cardiology, when I look at all the subspecialties is really fighting for women's heart health, you know, because it is so vastly different.

• 29:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Than men's and it's the number one killer of women.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Right. Well, not every cardiologist knows that though. I had to educate mine.

• 29:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So, yeah.

• 29:55Speaker 00

  I'm happy to say he listened. But it was a, it was a, it was a shocker for me to sit in someone's office who, you know, board certified it from a wonderful training background and to say, hey, I'm 40 something and you know, I'm having symptoms of perimenopause. I definitely think that I should have a full cardiac workup because my cholesterol has been creeping up over the last few years. And you know, cholesterol is a precursor for all of these hormones that my ovaries are making. And so, you know, I just want to figure out what's going on and get a baseline so that I can watch it change over time. And, and I said, kind of in an offhand way, you know, because my risk for cardiovascular

• 30:37Speaker 00

  disease is probably even higher than twofold at menopause because of all of my family background. And he looked at me and he said, No, that's not true. Your risk of heart disease isn't going to go up when you, when you go through menopause.

• 30:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Really?

• 30:51Speaker 00

  I was like, what?

• 30:52Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Oh, my gosh. Okay.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  But he, to his credit, you know, he listened. I, I explained and then sent him a bunch of scientific literature and, uh, but yeah, I, I really think that there's a lot you can do to monitor hu- heart health that we're not doing today. I mean, lots of us wear wearables and I'm not, you know, I'm agnostic to which ones, but I think that you have the ability, you know, as an individual to understand what's normal for you in every system, right? Not just your heart, but in every system to understand your normal, your baseline. And then when something changes, to really go after it and to, you know, advocate for yourself and talk to your doctors and make sure that you understand what's happening.

• 31:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What about bone health?

• 31:32Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh. I mean, DEXA scans are so cheap and so easy. I'm not saying you should do them all the time, but you know, a couple of times a year to look for changes. And for me, the DEXA scan is so much more exciting than just the bones, right?

• 31:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  Understanding the muscles. The first time I had a DEXA scan, I was like, oh.

• 31:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  They gave you the output. So, I mean, for our listeners, the DEXA is measuring multiple things at once. Um, depending on what the output is set at, sometimes it will just give you your bone density at the hip and the spine, which is how we measure, you know, for osteopenia and osteoporosis and normal bone density. But it is actually measuring your fat, your visceral fat and your muscle mass. So you have to ask the tech to give you the report and they have to like flip a button, you know, but then when you have that body composition.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 32:19Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 32:20Speaker 00

  I, I went to a private company.

• 32:21Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So, yeah. In our clinic, we have an in-body scanner, which is electrical impedance. So I can't give bone density, but I can give muscle mass, fat level, visceral fat, you know, so I'm able to have that body composition conversation. But like, most women have never, have no idea. They simply go with the scale.

• 32:39Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 32:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  When they're tracking health outcomes.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  That's insane.

• 32:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's insane.

• 32:43Speaker 00

  The technology is so far advanced beyond that.

• 32:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 00

  And, and relatively inexpensive. Like, there are companies that will, you know, do a DEXA scan for

• 32:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  $99.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  Or 50 even sometimes.

• 32:54Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The competition's getting out there.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  Exactly. But the muscle, giving, getting, understanding like the fat distribution and, and looking at the muscle mass. The first time I, like, there was a slight difference in, um, my calf muscle. And I was like, ooh, why is that? But then when I was, you know, running or working out, I actually paid attention to what I was doing.

• 33:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Can often show my patients that, you know, have a life, a job, or something that has led them to be more sedentary than they realize.

• 33:21Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 33:22Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And then they'll see this amazing upper body muscle mass, but their legs are falling behind like 10%. And I'm like, this is your sign, you know, get up every hour and do 10 squats, like, take the stairs, like, you're really gonna have to work because of your job that's requiring you to sit or, you know, make some lifestyle changes because this, you're gonna be the woman who won't get off the toilet without help.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 33:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  At 80.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, and if that's your goal, like, this is a gift.

• 33:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That now we can put some changes in place that will.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, and this is easy, right? It's not, there's no, it's, it's non-invasive, it doesn't take very long, you don't have to do it very often.

• 33:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 33:57Speaker 00

  But when you see changes, especially in bone density, you know, that's a, that's a warning flag.

• 34:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Very few things. When they see their visceral fat, a red flag, you know, alarms go off in their head. And when they see their muscle mass, you know, and when they see their bone density, they're like, I don't want to fall and break.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:12Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I'm like, just being a woman, it's a 50% chance you're gonna have an osteoporotic fracture before you die. Like, the younger you are, the, the more we can put.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  Hopefully not.

• 34:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Less, yeah.

• 34:21Speaker 00

  We've got some time before.

• 34:22Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right, but now, I mean, now that you know you're a little bit higher risk, we can make interventions. And then, to be clear, we can grow bone and muscle at any age, right? With or without menopause, it's just harder because of the aging process.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So here's a fact that I think is probably gonna make people listening angry. And it should, the main body that funds biomedical research in this country only required scientists to include, required them to include females in their studies, starting in 2016.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  That is true. We're talking about the NIH, which is the largest biomedical research funding body in the world. And NIH is amazing. It funds a lot of research, mostly pre-clinical research, meaning not in humans, right? So this kind of early-stage stuff, but it also funds clinical research as well in humans. And the clinical research part of it had been addressed through an act of Congress, actually. It's also sad that that had to happen through an act of Congress, but in 1993, you know, there was an act of Congress that said, you must include. Females in clinical trials, which is important, but for this kind of preclinical research, you know, all this work that we do to establish, to, you know, to test really crazy ideas and hypotheses.

• 35:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So to the listener, we usually don't start testing things in humans. You know, we use animal models.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  For safety.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know?

• 35:41Speaker 00

  And cells and.

• 35:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yes.

• 35:43Speaker 00

  You know, lots of different.

• 35:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  HeLa cells and yeah. So preclinical means before we get to humans.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 35:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So before there's a human trial, typically, there's been decades of research done in cells and animal studies before we take it to humans.

• 35:57Speaker 00

  Exactly. And so that work, which forms really the, that's like the foundation for all of biomedical research and for all of the sort of clinical things that happen with like drug discovery, for example, because there were no rules and because there was a really, there was the mistaken assumption that female systems are somehow noisier or have, you know.

• 36:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Complications.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  More complicated than male systems, which is not true, by the way. It's been shown completely missed, like totally myth busted. But that was the assumption. And because of that, a lot of people just defaulted to using males. Right? And, and, you know, I, I think it's important to acknowledge that when you have a limited amount of research funding, it can be expensive to try to study something in both sexes. And so if you have to make a choice and you think that females are complicated and noisy, then you're going to default to the males. But because there was no rule in place, what it meant is that historically, 80% of those preclinical studies were done in male animals and male cells.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  And that has implications beyond just thinking about, you know, women and female health. When we miss the differences between males and females, it really changes our ability to make interventions for both sexes. We were talking about the immune system earlier, right? Female immune systems are different from male immune systems, right? For whatever reason, we don't understand it very well, but we're better at dealing with viruses. Like we just, our immune systems respond differently to viruses.

• 37:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So the male cold, like the man flu is a thing?

• 37:33Speaker 00

  Apparently, yeah. I mean, we saw it during COVID, right? Men died at twice the rate of women, right? Independent of age. And that is likely due to differences in immune system,

• 37:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  like immune function that we don't understand. But if we did understand those differences, that would have given us a lever to potentially save the lives of men. And when you think about response to vaccines, right? When we talk about autoimmune disorders, right? Eighty percent of the patients who have autoimmune disorders are female. And your risk of autoimmune disease goes up dramatically at and after menopause. And that is directly linked to this ovarian aging question. And again, no idea like what's driving that. But we know that that is, you know, there's a link there.

• 38:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  There's a link.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  So this is a place where there's a huge amount of opportunity to make discoveries that will impact so many lives.

• 38:24Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  One thing surprised me in my research for this is that when we look at the menopause model, so say you are going to study a female, you know, in the lab with an animal model. And you're going to study a female, you're going to study a menopausal female. The only model for menopause female is they go and remove the ovaries. So they have a iatrogenic surgical menopause.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  That's not the only model, but yeah, that's the dominant model.

• 38:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Would that be fair to say? And there's no perimenopause model. So we're missing a seven to 10 year gap in animal studies where they're going through this, you know, predictable decline where there's lots of things going on, especially with cognition and mental health and bones and the general urinary system that we can't study because we don't have a model of a declining, you know, rapidly declining ovary. It's either the female model is pre-menopausal or post-menopausal.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  That is true. It's important to say that there are models that are being developed.

• 39:22Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yay.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  So an animal model is never going to reiterate everything that happens in a human, right? So we have to acknowledge that upfront. And we have to just like acknowledge that upfront and then be smart about using models in the context of their limitations, right? And so, for example, a rodent model, like you said, doesn't go through menopause. And so you can take out the ovaries and that is, that's a real. Really good model for POI or POF, right?

• 39:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 39:47Speaker 00

  Or for someone who's

• 39:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Sorry, premature ovarian insufficiency.

• 39:50Speaker 00

  Or failure.

• 39:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Failure, yeah. So this is premature menopause.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Or for women who have to have their ovaries removed for cancer or for some other reason. And so that's a great model for that patient population.

• 40:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  But for normal perimenopause and menopause, it doesn't, you're right, it doesn't recapitulate anything about what happens in a human. So there are models that are being developed where they're trying to sort of mimic a more gradual decline in ovarian function. As more scientists and clinicians focus on this problem, as more people come into the field, as, as, you know, as more people understand that this is an important question to ask, we'll, we'll get better, like, there will be better models.

• 40:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So back to funding, billions of dollars have gone into studying erectile dysfunction.

• 40:44Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Which is important, not knocking that, which affects less than 20% of men. Your entire consortium, which I think is absolutely amazing, raised $14.5 million.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  We raised a little bit more than that, but we gave away 14 and a half.

• 40:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay, and you called that basically a rounding error.

• 41:01Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, I mean, when you think about the NIH budget, for example, in 2024 was $47 billion. So, yeah, there's, there's a few orders of magnitude there difference. The consortium was designed to, again, stimulate research in the space, to build a new field, and we gave away 14 and a half million dollars to 49 scientists all over the world from 37 different institutions and eight countries. And I'm really proud of that. So the consortium existed for five years. It doesn't exist anymore. Partly because there are other institutions and other foundations that have, like, taken over and are funding research in the space. And, and they're bigger and they're doing more.

• 41:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, I mean, but you kicked it off, so.

• 41:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Amazing.

• 41:45Speaker 00

  I'm very excited about that. But, yeah, it's a challenge. It, the, what we fund dictates what we know.

• 41:52Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So I want people to understand when we talk about The data here and I I knew the data from 2023 NIH budget at that point, I think was 43 billion. And women's health, what they called women's health was 10% of that.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And the majority of that went to pregnancy or breast and ovarian cancer, three very important, you know, but everything else, things like polycystic ovarian syndrome, which affects 10% of the population, endometriosis, which affects at least 10% of the population, probably more menopause, which affects 100% of women who live long enough. Got all collectively less than 1%.

• 42:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's.

• 42:27Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Of the women's health budget, which was 10% of, you know, so it's like 003%. I think is what menopause got. So how that translates, when I pulled the data a couple of days ago, and I just go to PubMed, PubMed is where we look up research articles, right? Like legit, peer reviewed research articles, and I just type in the word pregnancy. Right now, it's about 1.2 million articles that say the word pregnancy in it somewhere.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay, great labs, brains, money, HR, all the things. Okay. I type in the word menopause and we're about 104,000. Okay, I type in the word peri menopause, and I just wrote this book and it right now is at 7,000.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  Hmm. And if you type in ovarian aging, it'll be in the hundreds, probably.

• 43:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, which is, you know, that's, it's very reflective of where we are as a, as a field. And we're at the very beginning. And at this stage, I track those numbers for, you know, women's health and NIH funding. And I think at some point, we have to just stop calling it women's health.

• 43:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's the health of women.

• 43:29Speaker 00

  It's human health.

• 43:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Human health.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  I mean, honestly, or precision medicine, or something where we're talking about understanding these sex differences in a way that doesn't make it seem like some special thing that we need. Right? It, it should command a large part of the budget because it's half the population.

• 43:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right. And women aren't aging well in general. And that last decade is rough for most of them.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's true.

• 43:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  My patients don't want to live forever. They just don't want to be a burden. Right? They don't want to end up in a long term care facility. They don't want to have to have their children scrambling to care for their needs for a long period of time.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:03Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that is happening in so many families. It is such a topic of conversation in my friend group of our parents, our parents, our parents. And usually, not all men, but the men kind of function pretty well. Wives are taking care of them. And then they die with a very short, you know, again, not all families. This was certainly my family. And then the women. Live a really long time, requiring lots and lots and lots of intervention and care.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, that's right.

• 44:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So I think that is the downstream of the lack of all of this study. And now that we're educated and we're understanding and we're in positions where we are caring for our parents, we're like, no, please.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Right, because you're watching it happen in real time to someone that you care about deeply.

• 44:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And who never wanted, my mother never would have wanted to live like this.

• 44:48Speaker 00

  Right.

• 44:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, if she had the choice.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  You were talking about philanthropic or governmental funding for research, right? So that's.

• 44:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's one way we get things funded.

• 44:58Speaker 00

  That's one way, but you know, the numbers are not so different if you look at private investment.

• 45:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  Right, which is also horrifying. I just ran these numbers from 2020 to 2025. If you look at investment in companies focused on the health of women across the board, I think it was something like 23 billion total. So not a lot, should be more, but you know, it's, it's going up. But of that 23 billion, most of it, like, most of it, 22 billion of it, went to those three, those three things, female-specific cancers, maternal fetal health and fertility. And so there was something like 800 million-ish, 900 million-ish that went towards everything else.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  So like 4% ish of the funds went to all of the indications that cause more than 50% of the disease burden. So everything you just talked about, endometriosis, PCOS, POI, all of these things that, that are not cancer, fertility, or pregnancy.

• 46:01Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Why do you think that is?

• 46:02Speaker 00

  I think it's because, I mean, woman is incubator. This is how medicine has characterized female bodies forever.

• 46:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah. So we're moving into the biggest wealth transfer in the history of the world to women.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay, so when they get those paychecks, and none of these women that I see who are getting these, these windfalls are building rockets or buying yachts or anything, I mean, maybe a couple are, but what I'm seeing is Alice Walton building a medical school.

• 46:30Speaker 00

  It's beautiful.

• 46:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's going to specifically serve the underprivileged. I see Melinda Gates, I see Mackenzie Scott, like donating heavily to health.

• 46:39Speaker 00

  Where, where would you tell, if anyone out there is listening with a deep pocket suddenly,

• 46:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  where would you have her invest for her?

• 46:46Speaker 00

  Oh, well.

• 46:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That would serve her. If she's like, keep me out of a nursing home, Jennifer.

• 46:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Where should we invest?

• 46:52Speaker 00

  I mean, I've, there's a long list of academic labs that I can talk to you about. And, and I, you know, I am, I am in the middle of raising money and I, what we're building is something new. And so it's, it's, you know, we're trying to build something that is at scale. So one of the things that's frustrated me a lot over the last eight years, watching this space grow up, is that there are so many parallel tiny efforts.

• 47:21Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Silence.

• 47:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and just a lot of very small things happening. And I think that's because like women, like when we realized, I call it the four stages of grief. Like at 42, I was like, oh my God, I'm so embarrassed as like an intellectual, as a scientist. I quite literally didn't know how my ovaries worked. I couldn't even tell you like what they looked like or even necessarily exactly where they were, right? They were down here somewhere. But I was like horrified and embarrassed that I didn't know anything about my ovaries. And then when I went to learn something, I was second stage of grief, which was like shocked, like really shocked at how little there was for me to learn, right?

• 48:03Speaker 00

  And then the third stage, which I got caught in for a long time, was like abject rage at why we are here. Right? Once you understand why, why there's such a lack of knowledge. And then I think the fourth stage that most women end up in is like, all right, it's a problem. Like let's roll up our sleeves and fix it. And the challenge with that is that then you get like 20 women all working on the same problem. Independently, instead of like joining together and building something massive. And for, for the health of women, I think we need not just a new model, but we need to stop trying to like shoehorn, shoehorn it into the system that was never built for women in the first place.

• 48:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  And just make something new. If it's broken and it wasn't made for us in the first place, like, let's just make something new and let's not be bashful about it. And let's not pussyfoot around and say like, oh, we're just going to do this tiny little thing where like, let's really do it at scale in a way that's going to move the needle.

• 49:05Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So you did something in your lab that had really never been done before. You started mapping what is happening inside of the ovary as it ages.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  I should say, me and several other wonderful and amazing researchers all over the world. So group effort, lots of different techniques, lots of different ways to do this. Just imagine, so swap out the word ovary for heart. In the last five years, we have gotten the first pictures of how nerves innervate the ovary, how lymphatic, how the lymphatic system innervates the ovary. Yesterday, like quite literally yesterday, I was at an all day symposium about ovarian health, which was put on by QB3 and Baker Labs, which is the incubator that works across UC Berkeley and UCSF.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  And I saw Diana Laird present beautiful data, the most detailed data I've ever seen for the innervation of nerves and blood vessels into the ovary.

• 50:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And it's 2026.

• 50:08Speaker 00

  And it's 2026. And the kind of mapping that you're talking about that we're doing, where we're quite literally asking, what are the cell types that make up the ovary?

• 50:19Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I only learned those cell types in reference to cancer.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 50:22Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And all the different ways the ovary can develop cancer. That's the only way someone taught me what the cell types were.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's a lot of depth to how the ovary looks in terms of how many types of cells there are in it. And what's cool and also complex about the ovary is that if you think about, so most people will understand ovulation, right?

• 50:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I think I do, but I realize I don't know a damn thing.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  But what ends with ovulation begins in humans a year earlier, right? So a year earlier, yeah, oh yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  I'm sorry.

• 51:00Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Continue.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  Every cycle, so for humans, every cycle, your ovary, my ovary, used to, recruit about a thousand primordial follicles. So these are, you know, these are the things that are dormant.

• 51:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I thought that happened on day one of your cycle. I didn't realize it was a year in advance.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  Okay, so let me blow your mind. I also didn't know this, right? This is something that I learned when I was 40. So every cycle, you know, you recruit about a thousand primordial follicles to start growing and they all start growing together. But across, it's slightly longer than a year, like 375 days, from the moment they get recruited to the moment of ovulation, that's what, that's how long it takes. And so what's happening across those 375 days is that those thousand are going through the, the stages of development, right? Like a primary, secondary, you know, you want all the stages. So essentially they start to grow and then they change and, you know, all kinds of things happen. But along the way, you know, you're losing

• 52:01Speaker 00

  at every stage, many, many dozens, if not hundreds of follicles, right? So they die through atresia.

• 52:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Atresia, yeah.

• 52:08Speaker 00

  Right. And, and eventually the winner gets ovulated. So imagine now, so that happens with a thousand. And so you've got not just the, the follicles that are developing through different stages, where there's different cell types, different, all kinds of things happening, right? But then there's all these cells that are dying through atresia that have to be resorbed, right? They have to, they have to, you have to clean up that mess. So there's a lot of immune infiltration of the ovaries that's important for normal function. So you've got not just like the follicle cells, but you've got the cells that are dying.

• 52:39Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Over the course of a year, this is 12,000 cells. I mean, if you've got a thousand for each cycle.

• 52:45Speaker 00

  Hold on, I'm going to make it slightly more complicated, but just stick with me for a minute. Stick with me. So you've got, let's just that thousand cohort. So it's not just those cells, it's the cells that are dying, it's immune cells coming in to clean up the mess. And as they're growing, you get blood vessels coming in to, to provide nutrients. So there's blood vessels growing and retracting. There's the lymphatic system, like it's all dynamic. Okay, so that's one cohort, right? From one cycle now, 30, 28 days later, or 26 days later, 24 days later, however long your cycle is.

• 53:19Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  Another thousand get recruited. So now imagine your ovary has so many different cohorts that are going at the same time and all of these dynamic processes happening. And it's, I mean, it's amazing. It's so beautiful what happens, but it's also amazingly complex. Now, what we wanted to do and what others wanted to do was to understand like, what are the identities of all those cell types, right? And what are they making, for example, right? At a, at a resolution that we've never been able to see before, right? The technology has gotten to the point now where you can sequence a single cell and understand everything that it's doing. But in the ovary, if you dissociate everything and just look

• 54:04Speaker 00

  at the cells individually, you don't know. So maybe, you know, at any given time, there's a few hundred eggs in your, you know, that are developing in different stages.

• 54:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  But each one of those eggs is different because it had a different, was in a different kind of follicle, right? It had different cells around it. It was doing different things, but you would never know that if you didn't capture the whole structure. And so spatial transcriptomics allows you to basically take a slice of the tissue. So you maintain, you understand the structure and then you sequence directly. So you know that this egg, which came from like, you know, a

• 54:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  A month, seven.

• 54:42Speaker 00

  Secondary. Yeah.

• 54:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Exactly.

• 54:43Speaker 00

  Has these cells around it and they're doing these things in this context. And so it's, the data is beautiful and there's so many labs now that have done this. And in 2024, so again, just swap in heart here. Like if, if I had just told you that this is where we are with understanding the heart, you'd be horrified.

• 55:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:03Speaker 00

  So swap in the word heart right now. In 2024, we got to this place where, you know, so some of the grants that we gave away in 2020 in the first cohort were to fund some of these like really deep phenotyping and spatial transcriptomics and this kind of, this like just cataloging what the cells are and what they're doing.

• 55:21Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  There's the basic, most basic function of the ovary.

• 55:24Speaker 00

  And everyone did, comparing it to the data that already existed, that had been generated in those previous few years. We couldn't compare across the data sets because we quite literally had never agreed on what to call these cell types. And so in one data set, you know, they made up Because we had never talked about it before. And so trying to compare across the data sets was impossible. So the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, they basically paid for a meeting. We called it a cell types jamboree.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  The reproductive tissue cell types jamboree, where they paid for 60 researchers from all over the world to come and bring one person from their labs to the people doing the actual like data analysis. And we sat together in a room for three days and we talked about cell ontology, which is basically what do we call these cell types? And agreed on what to call them and how to categorize them so that now we have a common language. And a similar thing happened a few years earlier across a different group of researchers where they went in and assigned landmarks to the ovary so that when, for example, you dissect out an ovary from a human, you like, if you're going to cut it up into different

• 56:37Speaker 00

  pieces, you like orient it the same way so that, you know, this piece here is the same as the piece you take from the ovary here.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  It's insane.

• 56:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's so.

• 56:49Speaker 00

  It's amazing that we're, like, I'm so happy that we're making all this progress, but it's also, it just kind of highlights how far behind we are in understanding things.

• 56:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Wow.

• 57:03Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Welcome back to another Midi Pause. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, host of UnPaused. One of the most confusing parts of menopause is knowing which lab test you should actually be asking for. If you've ever gone to the doctor with symptoms like fatigue, brain fog, weight changes, low libido, or mood swings, you may have been told, that's just menopause. And while hormones are a big part of it, that doesn't mean you shouldn't get a full picture of what's happening in your body. During your annual exam, your clinician asks how you've been feeling, does a brief exam, and usually orders blood work. He or she might rattle off the names of a couple of lab tests to be ordered, like a

• 57:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  CBC, complete blood count, or CMP, comprehensive metabolic panel, but rarely has the time to explain what exactly these tests are looking for. So you get your blood drawn, get a call a few days later that things came back normal, and you don't really think much about it until the next year. Sound familiar? If you want to be more proactive about your health in menopause and perimenopause, where should you start? Hormones are one piece. Looking at estrogen, progesterone, and FSH can help identify where you are in the menopause transition. But don't stop there. Thyroid testing, including TSH, T3, and T4, is important since thyroid issues can mimic

• 58:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  menopause symptoms. You'll also want a broader metabolic picture, including blood sugar and markers of insulin resistance, and a full cholesterol screening, including LP little a, a genetic risk factor, and APOB, which shows the total number of particles putting pressure on your arteries, especially since menopause can increase cardiovascular risk. And don't overlook vitamin levels. Low vitamin D, B12, or iron and ferritin levels can affect your energy, mood, and overall well-being. The bottom line is this: You deserve more than a quick dismissal. You deserve data, context, and a plan.

• 59:13Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's where Midi Health can help. Their clinicians specialize in midlife care and take a more comprehensive approach. They help you decide which labs make sense for your symptoms, and explain your results clearly, and build a plan tailored to you. Because this isn't just about checking boxes, it's about connecting the dots. If something feels off, advocate for yourself. Ask questions. Request the labs. You're not just managing symptoms, you're taking ownership of your long-term health. For more support, you can find a free lab checklist to bring to your next appointment that will be linked in the show notes. This clear and concise checklist explains why these tests matter, and includes simple

• 59:58Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  language to use if you feel you're not being heard. Go to joinmidi.com, joinmidi.com, and connect with one of their clinicians today.

• 1:00:12Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What I want, you know, people to understand is the health of the ovary is tied to, yes, fertility, irregular periods, polycystic ovarian syndrome and fertility miscarriage, early menopause, perimenopausal symptoms, but, you know, and as you touched on before, metabolic problems, you know, we see the rate of metabolic syndrome in women doubles or triples, 2.3 across the menopause transition. We see rates of depression and mental health double across the perimenopause transition. The most likely time for a woman to, you know, trigger warning, commit suicide is between the ages of 45 and 55. The fastest rate of bone loss is in perimenopause, you know, two to four years before your periods

• 1:00:56Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  end. Like, this is so far reaching, way more than we ever, ever, ever understood. And to quote Moscone, we're owed centuries of research here.

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're, we're, we're generations behind.

• 1:01:10Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that they're all connected.

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  They're all connected. Don't know how yet, to be perfectly honest.

• 1:01:19Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  How close do you think we are?

• 1:01:20Speaker 00

  Well, if you were listening through this whole time, through this whole discussion, it's complicated, right? Female physiology is complex and we have to treat it that way. And so it's not like we're just gonna solve it tomorrow, but every day we're gaining more knowledge and as we gain more knowledge, we will be able to, you know, act on that knowledge and to really leverage that knowledge to create solutions for women. And while we're waiting for that, you know, I think what most women need to do now is to think about themselves as like an N of one experiment and understand everything about their own biology and to find doctors who, you know, who are up to date on the latest research and who listen to them. I think that listening is probably the most important thing.

• 1:02:05Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  True.

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  You're talking about perimenopause and the 100 and I don't even know how many symptoms there are now.

• 1:02:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  At least 125, probably more.

• 1:02:16Speaker 00

  Probably more. But the reason there's so many, right, is because of this.

• 1:02:22Speaker 00

  Because ovaries are so important for so many different things. And because, you know, that the aging trajectory is so different between individuals, right? Like, when you entered menopause, it's going to be different from when I enter menopause. And the changes that happen during perimenopause, right? It's not that graph that we always see, this like

• 1:02:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Gentle slope.

• 1:02:42Speaker 00

  That's an average and, you know, but at the level of the individual, it's like this. And it's like this

• 1:02:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Chaotic. That's why I call it the zone of chaos.

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  Right. And we, we graph out the zone of chaos for like two or three hormones, right? And we show that. But now imagine that what I told you is true. And there's a two dozen hormones that are changing in different directions, at different times, in different people. And that's why there's so many different symptoms. Because, you know, those are chemical conversations that are happening with different tissues in your body.

• 1:03:10Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I mean, I've had, you know, Vonda Wright talking about some of these myokines and individual cellular responses that she sees in the musculoskeletal system. I've had Jane Morgan and hopefully soon Jeremy London, he's a cardiothoracic surgeon. You know, I think we're getting there, the understanding is getting there. But like, like you talked about translation, you know, from bench to, to exam room is 17 years. I, I'm not going to wait a whole generation, you know, to begin to utilize and wait for guidelines to catch up. Um, to, to help women get, stay healthier. So what does the future look like if we get it right?

• 1:03:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, what frustrated me was when I really understood that the majority of any research in menopause was done around the hot flash.

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And just this one tiny symptom, very disruptive. I had them, they're horrific. They disrupted my sleep and so many things. And so they are important, but I would say 90% of research funding went into hot flashes, presence or absence and stopping them.

• 1:04:14Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Um, but what do you think if we get this right? What is women's health going to look like?

• 1:04:19Speaker 00

  I mean, honestly, I think if we can understand how ovaries work at baseline at every age, not just in midlife and beyond, but at every age, like what's normal for ovaries? What are they making? Who are they talking to? What's happening? I think it will unlock so many things, so many potential Interventions, but also just so many places where we could think about female health in a different way, right? And I think this message is important for very young women, right? The people who can benefit most from this message, honestly, are the women in their teens and early twenties who have the opportunity that I never had to really tune into their bodies and

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  understand what their normals are and then leverage that information, right?

• 1:05:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  And to use it like as a superpower as opposed to thinking about it as some sort of burden.

• 1:05:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Are waiting till things break.

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:05:13Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Before you go and have it fixed.

• 1:05:15Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:05:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Which is the worst way to do things, I think, in medicine. You've made a plea, a direct plea. So you have a microphone now. To advocates, women who have said loudly that they care about women's health, you know, we've thrown out some names, but there's several. And I'm going to quote you here and let me know if I get this right. Imagine what would happen if those people actually put their money behind what they're saying. What would you change, you know, if the right person came and made this their cause?

• 1:05:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, it can't be just one person.

• 1:05:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  No.

• 1:05:42Speaker 00

  I mean, honestly, I'm certainly looking for partners personally, but it can't just be one person. It has to be bigger than that, right? In terms of like, research funding for the foundational science.

• 1:05:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  That has to explode. And there are, there are foundations, there are people stepping up to fill those gaps, but the amounts of money that's been put forward so far is pretty miniscule. I mean, I'm not knocking it. I'm so excited.

• 1:06:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Grateful.

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  And so grateful and so happy that, that people are paying attention to this.

• 1:06:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  But it's not enough. Like, to be clear.

• 1:06:11Speaker 00

  Not nearly enough. Not nearly enough. That's one piece of it. But the other piece of it is, we have to think hard about what we're doing in terms of building those solutions, those, not just clinical solutions and not just drugs. I'm talking about direct to consumer products. I'm talking about devices and biomarkers and diagnostics, like how we're investing. How are we investing in companies that are making those things for, for women, for females?

• 1:06:39Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Do you think that women's health just isn't valued enough yet, outside of reproduction?

• 1:06:42Speaker 00

  I mean, in terms of the amount of money, it's just as paltry on this side in terms of the investment. And what's happening, what I've seen, you know, for the tiny amount of investment that is happening, and the exits that we should all be. Celebrating. It's in a really narrow, shallow sandbox that all of these companies are playing in. And that is where we're going to stay until we basically unlock some of this. There's like a deep divide between what we want in terms of solutions for women and what is possible right now in terms of the intellectual property and, you know, the, the discoveries that have been made. And so there's a lot of work to be done.

• 1:07:22Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Explain how shallow, like, talk to me about the sandbox.

• 1:07:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Where is the money going right now?

• 1:07:28Speaker 00

  Fertility.

• 1:07:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Which is important.

• 1:07:31Speaker 00

  Super important. I don't want to discount that. Like, it's really important and, and so important for, for so many women. But, you know, honestly, if you have infertility or you have issues with fertility, that's a, like a biomarker.

• 1:07:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yes.

• 1:07:45Speaker 00

  For lots of other things.

• 1:07:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And lots of women don't realize that.

• 1:07:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Is that your period is a vital sign.

• 1:07:49Speaker 00

  It's a vital sign. Yes, exactly. All of that is tied together in the same way that we were asking earlier about ovarian aging and fertility. Like, they're tied together, but, you know, defining that is difficult. But digital health, right? How many apps are out there?

• 1:08:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  A zillion.

• 1:08:06Speaker 00

  Wearables. And so these are all great things. I'm not knocking it. It's just lots of things in the diagnostic space. Certainly, we're pretty good at making drugs for cancer, right? These are places where we, we're pretty good at doing these things. But everything else, all the things that we were talking about, you know, this sort of 50% or more of the disease burden and 4% of the investment.

• 1:08:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:28Speaker 00

  Like, this is the challenge. And it's not because we don't want to do those things. It is because we quite literally do not have the knowledge to build on, to make those companies. And so that's the gap that I think we really need to bridge. That's, that's where I'm focusing, anyway.

• 1:08:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What is the take home message you want women to understand from this conversation?

• 1:08:49Speaker 00

  Your ovaries are for more than baby making. Essential for baby making, don't get me wrong, but your ovaries are for more than baby making and your health is tied to your ovarian function. Far beyond fertility and understanding that and then thinking about like your body, wherever you are, whatever age you are, thinking about like what's normal in your body, that's by far the best thing that you can do for yourself right now and working with physicians who who really understand and listen to you.

• 1:09:21Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And for the women, we have a lot who are post-menopause, like.

• 1:09:25Speaker 00

  I'm post-menopause.

• 1:09:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, our ships have sailed. What advice would you give them?

• 1:09:29Speaker 00

  Work with someone who understands that this is not, you know, it's not something horrible that's happened to you, but rather like you are just in a different part of your life and your health risks are, you know.

• 1:09:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Accelerated, but in some areas.

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  Limp your ovarian function and we have some Band-Aids available that are good for most women that you should think about. But also just, I would say to women that we are in a place where the medicine is imperfect, the solutions are imperfect. And so it takes a while, you know, you really do have to do N of one experimentation to try to find, for example, with hormone therapy, I 18 months, it took me 18 months with all of my knowledge, with all of my access, you know, with my relative comfort, I had to fire two doctors and I had to play around with lots of different things to find what worked for me. And so a lot of women, I think, start hormone therapy and then they stop

• 1:10:27Speaker 00

  because they have a side effect. And the challenge is that we haven't innovated in that space, almost since it was introduced in the 40s, right?

• 1:10:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Speaker 00

  Hormone therapy came online in the 40s and the only innovation that I'm really aware of is the introduction of the estradiol patch, which is an important one, right? Transdermal delivery. But there's a lot of opportunity there. And the way that we administer it now is kind of like a sledgehammer. And not because that's how doctors want to do it, just because that's what's available.

• 1:10:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's what's available, yeah.

• 1:10:58Speaker 00

  And so, understanding that going into it, I think, is really important. And knowing that it's not, it's not you, there's not like, it's not something wrong with you, or it's not something wrong with the process, it's just kind of where we are. And the hope is that in the next five to 10 years, that we will have completely changed that landscape, because the, you know, there's a lot of opportunity for innovation there. But right now, you know, for women who are in our shoes, this is what's available. And so, finding physicians who understand all of that is really important.

• 1:11:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Awesome. Well, Dr. Jennifer Garrison, we'll in the show notes have everywhere that people can find you and your website. But thank you so much for sharing your innovations, your research, and how hard you are fighting for the health of women. Thank you for coming on UnPaused.

• 1:11:42Speaker 00

  Thank you for the conversation. That was really, really fun.

• 1:11:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You can find Dr. Garrison through her website at drjennifergarrison.com, or at jennifergarrison.bsky.social, or on LinkedIn at Dr. Jennifer Garrison. I'd love to hear from you about this topic and anything else that's on your mind. You can find me on Instagram at DrMaryClaire, and get honest and accurate information on health, fitness, and navigating midlife at thepauselife.com. My new book, The New Perimenopause, is available now everywhere you buy books and through our website. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click Follow on your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. You can also find full episodes on YouTube at Dr. Mary Claire.

• 1:12:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  UnPaused is presented by Odyssey in conjunction with Pod People.