The Big Breakfast Debate, ChatGPT on the Menu, and the First 50 Best Restaurant List for N. America

This week, Adrienne and Joe are back to chat about the newest list everyone is talking about: North America's 50 Best Restaurants. They tell us what they love about the list, how it actually gets made, and what it means to restaurants who make the list. Plus, we discuss: Diner classics: Adrienne and Joe pick their favorite breakfast foods Fork It or Forget It: Using AI to help with new menus (and how to fix it) Review culture and the influence of lists on fine dining Walk In Confession: Joe’s elevator mishap that almost ruined his holiday gathering Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Welcome back to another episode of The Chef's Cut. Joe, it is so good to be back.

• 0:06Joe Flamm?

  Adrian, what a pleasure to be back with you, my friend.

• 0:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that was so much fun, Joe. We did our first ever series on private chef work and our first series in general. And that was so awesome to have those different perspectives.

• 0:21Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I thought it was so cool. Really interesting, awesome guests. I mean, such a wide array of guests. And I think from you talking about it to Sam Cass, to Olivia, it was just lights out. So good. But we're back and now it's just me and you again, Age, right where we begin.

• 0:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's just us.

• 0:37Joe Flamm?

  This long journey has taken us right back to where we began.

• 0:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, for this week of The Chef's Cut, let everybody know what we have going on today.

• 0:45Joe Flamm?

  All right, we're starting off, we're getting real personal and we're getting real breakfast, AG. Then we're doing a little forklift, forget it with a little nod to the late era 90s MLB. A little review, we're gonna go positive.

• 0:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Nice.

• 0:58Joe Flamm?

  They go low, we go high.

• 1:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  We do that once in a while.

• 1:01Joe Flamm?

  I think we gotta talk about the, you know, new 50 best list that came out for North America. Chop that up a little bit. And then why don't we round it out with a walk and confession for you that I think is a pretty epic one from back in the old Spiaja days.

• 1:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Note to self, take the stairs.

• 1:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  All right, Joe, let's get this going.

• 1:25Joe Flamm?

  I was thinking of you this morning. So I was making pancakes with the kids. As, you know, I'm a, I make a lot of breakfast now. Now that I have kids, I'm a big breakfast person. Cause you're up early. And it made me think, one of my first Hyde Park memories where you grew up is, you know, I think one of the famous Hyde Park institutions is the great, The Loys.

• 1:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yes. I'm so glad you said The Loys. That is the spot. Oh, my gosh.

• 1:53Joe Flamm?

  So I was thinking about that and I was thinking about The Loys pancakes always makes me think of it. Cause it always, when my mom worked over there, she always said that they served the hottest pancakes in the city.

• 2:04Joe Flamm?

  And that was, you know, really important to her for some reason. It still is. I was like, I feel like we all have our go to, like when you go to like a breakfast place, like a breakfast, like diner place, like you have your breakfast to order. That's like your stalwart, right? You're like, it doesn't matter the diner. You're like, this is my diner order. And I'm like, what is Adrian Cheatham's diner order?

• 2:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, you're getting real personal with that.

• 2:29Joe Flamm?

  This is something usually only shared between, you know, breakfast is a casual meal, but it's like, you usually really only share it with like family or someone who you've spent the night with.

• 2:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly.

• 2:39Joe Flamm?

  Who may be your future family. You know what I mean? So it's kind of one of those things where it's a, it's a personal question.

• 2:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. I mean, I'm not, I've never been a big breakfast person, but I do have my thing at a diner. And it is usually two eggs over easy hash browns, toast, and I like link sausage.

• 3:02Joe Flamm?

  What kind of toast?

• 3:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wheat toast or rye, depending on the restaurant. If they have rye, I'm rye toast all the way.

• 3:09Joe Flamm?

  You are the oldest person on earth. Do people know that you're a hundred and twenty, rye?

• 3:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  You don't like rye bread?

• 3:18Joe Flamm?

  I didn't say I don't like rye bread. I just think rye toast for breakfast is wild.

• 3:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  It is phenomenal. You get that like caraway flavor.

• 3:27Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, no, I know what rye bread tastes like. You know, my, my Irish ass has eaten plenty of rye bread.

• 3:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love rye bread. Growing up, my dad used to take us to either Veloi's for breakfast on Saturday or Sunday morning, or this other place that used to be on 57th street called Salonica. And I would get skirt steak and eggs. I wouldn't eat the eggs, but I would eat the skirt steak on my rye bread with butter. And then at Veloi's, it was hash browns, two eggs over easy, link sausage, side of rye toast. But rye toast has been the through line at every diner I go to.

• 4:03Joe Flamm?

  So on your rye toast, is it just butter or butter and jelly?

• 4:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, it's just butter. You can't put jelly on rye toast.

• 4:09Joe Flamm?

  That's, that's, that's my point.

• 4:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, yeah. You can put it on wheat or white English muffin, but that's like a fun thing. If they don't have rye bread at a diner, I'll get wheat. I'll go there. Fine. Nothing wrong with it. I'll eat one slice with butter with my savory food and then I'll save one slice with butter. And I'll put jelly on it for the dessert at the end of breakfast.

• 4:33Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I do love that move. I do love that move of like the one with butter, one with jelly.

• 4:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. What is your go-to diner order, Joe? I need to know now.

• 4:43Joe Flamm?

  So I have a corned beef hash skillet. Eggs over easy. English muffin.

• 4:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  English muffin with hash? You don't want rye bread or something that like comple- like stands up to it?

• 4:58Joe Flamm?

  Rye bread for breakfast.

• 5:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm so shocked.

• 5:02Joe Flamm?

  I want an English muffin with butter and you know that like mixed fruit jelly that's just like that weird homogeneous.

• 5:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Tastes like nothing and everything at the same time.

• 5:13Joe Flamm?

  Exactly. Give me, give me some of that. English muffin. The mixed fruit jelly.

• 5:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  So you're a nook and cranny guy?

• 5:21Joe Flamm?

  Eggs over easy. Um, and then a bunch of hot sauce over the whole thing.

• 5:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, okay. I can't say I'm a hundred percent surprised by that. I do love a good hash. But damn, I can't get that all the time. Like that's, I'm not gonna eat until six P M.

• 5:37Joe Flamm?

  All, all the time, but I'm saying if I'm going out and it's like I have my choice, it's like, that's like. A corned beef hash skillet for me is, you're living high on the hog.

• 5:48Joe Flamm?

  It's like that to me is like going out to breakfast, like the smell of coffee, corned beef hash and eggs. And it's like, ah, can't beat it. Can't beat it.

• 5:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  I can't lie. I've been scarred once by a bad corned beef hash. And so I'm a little more reluctant to order it than I used to be, but that's a good one. That's a good diner classic.

• 6:06Joe Flamm?

  Corned beef hash, that stuff like stays good forever.

• 6:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  You would think, right? But it was just like, it was like mealie.

• 6:13Joe Flamm?

  Like, was it like a homemade corned beef hash?

• 6:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, it was at a restaurant, at a diner. And it was like.

• 6:18Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, cause it's usually just like that canned Hormel corned beef hash, which is just like, I love it. Like, I'm not, I'm not even gonna sit here. And try to pretend.

• 6:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Nor should.

• 6:29Joe Flamm?

  Like I'm looking for some artisanal like, oh, we corned beef ourselves and then, you know, braised it at a twenty four hour Guinness braised with carrots. And no, we opened a can of Hormel. We threw that shit on the plancha.

• 6:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  We chopped it up.

• 6:43Joe Flamm?

  It's been on the plancha since then. We're gonna take it off. We probably cooked it in clarified butter, like the big ass tubs of clarified butter.

• 6:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:51Joe Flamm?

  We're gonna throw it on top of some hash browns. We're gonna throw some eggs on top of it, maybe some cheese and it's gonna absolutely slap.

• 6:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  It is. It goes hard. It goes hard. I don't know how they messed up this corned beef hash this one time, but they did. And I've never been the same since.

• 7:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  But I'm down. If you're making corned beef hash, I'll bring the Hormel can. You open it up and get the peppers.

• 7:14Joe Flamm?

  I never, it's one of those things. I'd never make it at home. It's only an out to, out to breakfast thing for me.

• 7:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, interesting.

• 7:22Joe Flamm?

  And I, and I make breakfast probably at home seven days a week, you know, sometimes that's a bowl cereal for the kids or whatever, but I make the kids breakfast seven days.

• 7:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 7:30Joe Flamm?

  And corned beef hash is never something I make.

• 7:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Have they, have your kids tried corned beef hash?

• 7:34Joe Flamm?

  No, no interest in it.

• 7:37Joe Flamm?

  No interest in it. If they start, hey, listen, if I start getting orders for it, I'll put it on the menu.

• 7:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right?

• 7:43Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? You gotta make the customers happy.

• 7:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  All right, Joe, what do we have up first today for us?

• 7:50Joe Flamm?

  So we're gonna kick it off with a little fork and forget it. And this was a topic we broached a while back, but I've seen more of it and I've just been hearing a lot of chefs talk about it. And I don't love it. And so I have a solution.

• 8:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 8:07Joe Flamm?

  So a while back, we talked about, you know, people using AI chat GPT for like menus and stuff, all that, right? To create and they're just going into chat GPT and saying, I want to make a shrimp dish that's, you know, Adrian Cheetum would make on a Tuesday in Nantucket, you know, wearing a bucket hat, you know?

• 8:28Joe Flamm?

  And so

• 8:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  As I am want to do.

• 8:30Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. Um, so I was thinking about it because I was thinking about like, there's all, you know, these AI videos coming out of like, and I've seen like so many chefs who are making these weird fake AI videos of them like cooking and stuff. But they all have like the watermark that says like Sora. And like, that's how you know it's AI.

• 8:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 8:48Joe Flamm?

  So they have like some sort of AI watermark. So my solution for you to fork and forget is I think if you're using AI or chat GPT for your menus, I want a watermark on your menu.

• 9:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  You want to know.

• 9:04Joe Flamm?

  I want a citation. I want you to say, I use chat GPT for this.

• 9:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like instead of the asterisks with the farmers, you put the asterisk that says created by chat GPT.

• 9:14Joe Flamm?

  Thousand percent. Put that asterisk out there. I want you to say it. I want you to say you used AI. If you're going to tell me you used, you know, Slagel to buy eggs, I want you to tell me you use chat GPT to make an egg dish. I feel like you should have to. I think you, I, I think you should say it. I think you should have to say it.

• 9:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, I mean, I don't know, Joe. I don't know, because it's another extension of technology advancement that chefs are using. And you still have to put the parameters into chat GPT.

• 9:46Joe Flamm?

  So you're saying you're using.

• 9:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you still have to make it taste good.

• 9:49Joe Flamm?

  All, all, all I'm hearing is guilt from that side of the microphone. That's all this sounds like. That's all that sounds like is guilt.

• 9:59Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean?

• 9:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  I don't use chat GPT because I'm not developing, I don't have for restaurants, right? I am cooking for a couple of individuals. I'm not creating menu after menu and changing. So I'm not necessarily running out of inspiration, but you have to put an asterisk and say that it's sous vide. Like if this is just another tool that chefs have access to, why, what's wrong with them using it? Is it because it takes away the personal responsibility of creativity?

• 10:32Joe Flamm?

  I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm just saying they should have to claim it.

• 10:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, okay.

• 10:39Joe Flamm?

  It's a PED. It's a, it's a performance enhancing drug.

• 10:44Joe Flamm?

  I'm not saying we're going to test for it. I'm not saying they can't go to the hall of fame. I'm just saying. If they're pissing hot, we should know.

• 10:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love that.

• 10:55Joe Flamm?

  That's all I'm saying. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like, listen, if you're dabbling in a little bit of that, you know, if you're juicing a little bit, H?

• 11:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Uh huh.

• 11:03Joe Flamm?

  You know, like, I'm not here to judge you.

• 11:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Can you tell, though, like, if it weren't written on the menu, when you read certain menus, can you see the menus or the the descriptions that you're like, okay, they probably reached into the bag of tricks of ChatGPT for this one? Or would you know if they didn't say it?

• 11:22Joe Flamm?

  No, I don't think you would know. That's kind of the point. You know what I mean? I think it makes things kind of monotonous. You know what I mean? And it can make it where it's like everyone's gonna start writing the same menu. I mean, there's so much less, I think, you know, with the internet, now that you can see dishes from all over the world, like, you know, you can plate something, just like somebody else plated something in, you know, Copenhagen, even if you're in Tulsa.

• 11:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 11:48Joe Flamm?

  Because you can see it on the internet that day.

• 11:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep.

• 11:50Joe Flamm?

  But I think it's just if you're using it, you should say.

• 11:57Joe Flamm?

  If we're gonna claim, if we're gonna claim all our sources for everything else, say, oh, this is, if I can tell you where this beef is from, and they sold it to me with a print of its nose on a piece of paper to prove its heritage for a cow that came from Japan for a ribeye I bought. I think you could tell people if you're using PEDs.

• 12:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, I'm, I actually agree with that.

• 12:23Joe Flamm?

  And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I like, I like 90s era baseball. I loved watching Mark McGuire hit the living piss out of a baseball. I loved it. Loved it. There's nothing wrong with it. I think those guys should all be in the Hall of Fame.

• 12:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hell, yeah.

• 12:36Joe Flamm?

  It was awesome. It was an awesome, checking the newspaper every day to see who's just cranking bombs.

• 12:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  And hell, Lance Armstrong. If everybody's taking steroids and you're still beating everybody and everybody's on it, you still deserve that win.

• 12:50Joe Flamm?

  That's what I'm saying, but.

• 12:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  I said what I said.

• 12:53Joe Flamm?

  But.

• 12:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  But we should know.

• 12:57Joe Flamm?

  Just like, say it, fuck it.

• 13:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, okay.

• 13:01Joe Flamm?

  If you're not ashamed of it. If you're doing it, I mean, you know what I mean? Shame dies in the light, as they say. My friend Adrian.

• 13:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  This menu was created with the assistance of ChatGPT. I wouldn't be, okay, at first I thought you were saying that chefs should not be using it.

• 13:17Joe Flamm?

  No.

• 13:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  But you're just saying that they should put that.

• 13:20Joe Flamm?

  Listen, no.

• 13:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  For us to know.

• 13:22Joe Flamm?

  I think use it, use it if you need it. I think this is, we work on this extraordinarily hard business and an extraordinarily hard time to work in it. You have to do whatever it takes. You know what I mean?

• 13:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 13:37Joe Flamm?

  Anything, and I don't think it's unethical. I, I think anything you can do that helps you put another button in a seat, that helps you sell another piece of food, that helps you make one more dollar, you have to do. That's just the business we're in right now. You know what I mean? The margins are too thin. Everything's too expensive. Food's through the roof. Labor's through the roof. Rent is through the roof. Use what you gotta use.

• 14:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, some restaurants used to have whole R and D departments. Now you can pare that down to like one person using ChatGPT.

• 14:07Joe Flamm?

  There's no way you could do that now.

• 14:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 14:10Joe Flamm?

  You mean Jose Andres back in the day had that restaurant that was just an R and D restaurant?

• 14:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm hmm.

• 14:15Joe Flamm?

  Remember like minibar, right? Wasn't that it? Or like?

• 14:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, minibar was experimental.

• 14:20Joe Flamm?

  Right. Like you could never do that now.

• 14:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's true.

• 14:23Joe Flamm?

  Without like government grants. You know what I mean? Like you've just, you're not fucking getting, um, you know, like, so, yeah, I don't know. That's just, it's kind of one of those things for me.

• 14:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  So you just want to know?

• 14:35Joe Flamm?

  I would like transparency.

• 14:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  I hear you, but I'm okay with the theater of dining.

• 14:40Joe Flamm?

  You're doing some.

• 14:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  Whatever it.

• 14:44Joe Flamm?

  Lot of Jeff Bagwell, very Vizio energy coming from you right now.

• 14:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  I don't care. As long as the ChatGPT is not cooking the food. It's still the chef. It's still the team. They can take this idea that ChatGPT gives them, but they still have to figure out how to make it delicious. So I don't care to know if they got the idea from ChatGPT.

• 15:07Joe Flamm?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  I just care that they made it delicious.

• 15:12Joe Flamm?

  Doesn't want to see how the sausage is made.

• 15:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, I know how the sausage is made. I don't need to see it anymore. I've ground the sausage. I've cased it.

• 15:23Joe Flamm?

  All right, we're moving on. Review, review. Into you.

• 15:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  So, Joe, for review, review today, I'm going to bring this again, kind of full circle. Like, we were talking to our Chef's Cut Nation audience, saying, "We want you guys to leave reviews on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your, your podcasts." And we have gotten some amazing reviews, Joe. I mean, this is gonna be a positive review, review.

• 15:50Joe Flamm?

  Okay, I was wondering, I was wondering where you're going with this. I was like, I haven't read any of these reviews. I have, I, you know what I mean? I have enough to keep up with. With, with three restaurants, and I have not read. And we did announce the fourth restaurant.

• 16:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  I saw.

• 16:06Joe Flamm?

  Shameless plug, Bartuto, coming soon.

• 16:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Nothing, nothing shameless about it. You're in the light. Shame is dead.

• 16:11Joe Flamm?

  That's right.

• 16:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love this. I can't wait to be there, by the way. So, for review, review, we are going to go with a positive review. We're not beating up on diners. We're not beating up on the things that they say online. And we don't have to clap back on this. And this was a review that was left this past week on Apple. And are you ready for it?

• 16:34Joe Flamm?

  I'm ready.

• 16:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, so this warmed my heart, truly. This said, the title of it was, "These Two: Every episode is a worthwhile ride between hilarity, tips to be a better cook, and respect for lives well-lived by strong moral compasses. Living for the Tuesday drops of The Chef's Cut every week."

• 16:59Joe Flamm?

  That's it. I love it. I love it. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's, that's the coolest. You know, this is, this has been such a fun thing to make. You know, people ask me about it all the time, especially when I go to events. I was doing stuff over the past 10 days, did some filming. And, you know, just hearing from other chefs about it is, is the coolest. I mean, like, oh, it's really fun, like, hearing the things you guys talk about, and the way you talk about them, for something we just started as, you know, basically, our phone calls recorded.

• 17:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  We took our phone calls to Zoom and started recording it. And that review was left by Jules, 1 million percent. So, thank you, Jules. So, everybody else.

• 17:40Joe Flamm?

  I hope they spelled it like Jules, like a Chicago.

• 17:47Joe Flamm?

  Jules, 1,000% here. I love the podcast. You guys are the best.

• 17:55Joe Flamm?

  Get a couple of brats on the grill and some orange pop out of the trunk.

• 17:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Who doesn't like a good brat and a pop? No, Jules, I don't think is Chicago, but that was such a nice review. We've gotten others that are so nice and so amazing. And I've also been on the road doing some food festivals and some filming. And I was talking to a chef recently, actually, Manit Chauhan, who has restaurants in Nashville. And she told me that she was listening to the podcast. And one of the funniest things she told me, she said, I always thought Joe was so serious.

• 18:30Joe Flamm?

  She must be the first person ever.

• 18:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  She was like, I love the banter. I love like the dynamic between you two. She was like, but I always thought that Joe was so serious. I'm so happy to see that he's like such a fun person.

• 18:41Joe Flamm?

  That's wild. And I've met Manit before. Manit used to live in Chicago. I don't know if you know.

• 18:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, she was the chef of Vermillion.

• 18:48Joe Flamm?

  Yes, yes. Fucking what a, oh, what a pole Vermillion. But yeah, her and her husband, who are both fantastic people. And just a lot of fun.

• 18:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  The fact that she thought you were serious, definitely.

• 19:01Joe Flamm?

  I guess somebody at one point in life has to think you're serious. And I found the one person who somehow thought I was serious.

• 19:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, Joe, let's get into a little bit of line check today. So there's been a lot of stuff happening in the industry, a lot of cool things. And one of those really cool things is, for the first time ever, instead of just World's 50 Best, there is a North America 50 Best that was just announced.

• 19:30Joe Flamm?

  Yes. Super interesting list, too, I thought, by the way. Because I think it's always interesting with these things where it's like, I don't think any of them are the... I mean, how do you judge, right? And, and you know, I think it's so... Like when you look from like Michelin to that, right? Cause I would say those are probably the two biggest now that you know, are out there as far as chefs are concerned with. You know what I mean? I think you could argue the validity of either one of those till, you know, you're blown in the face and it doesn't matter. But I think as far as chefs are concerned with what they look at, the two biggest ones I would say are World's 50 Best, now North America 50 Best, and you know, The Guide.

• 20:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 20:11Joe Flamm?

  But what I thought was super interesting about World's 50 Best, it's like you go through the list and I was looking at it earlier and I think like, you know, the heavy hitters are on there, right? You, you know, one is Atomix and you know, Man Lapin and then Smith in Chicago is four and they just got three Michelin stars a couple of years ago. Single Threads, a three Michelin stars. Uh, Le Bernardin, I don't know if you've heard of it, uh, they're out there.

• 20:39Joe Flamm?

  You know, Benue, three Michelin stars on there.

• 20:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  And then you also have some restaurants that don't have Michelin stars on there.

• 20:46Joe Flamm?

  Yes. And that's what I thought was super interesting. You know, like, I don't know if Four Horsemen has a star or not. They might have one. I can't remember. But like Four Horsemen being on there. Via Carota at 18?

• 20:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 21:01Joe Flamm?

  Like, listen, I love Via Carota. And I think that's awesome. I think it's awesome. That it's like, cause I think it's like, you know, for me, it's like one of those restaurants where it's like, when people are like, where should I go to York? Like, you know, Lilia, Via Carota, like those are always, yeah, those are always top of my list. You know, I ate at Four Horsemen last time I was in New York. I probably ate at Via Carota the time I was there before. I ate at Missy Robbins Restaurants every single time I've been to New York. But I thought that was wild. I just did not see that coming. There's so many of those big, heavy hitter, fine dining restaurants in North America, right?

• 21:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 21:44Joe Flamm?

  That it's like to see the, you know, uh, you know, Via Corota in there, to see Four Horsemen in there, to see, you know what I mean? Some of these really cool, interesting places that aren't necessarily, you know, Kasama's a one star in Chicago, but it's a really cool, unique one star. And so see them, you know, 31, I think is awesome. Um, just so much cool stuff that it's like, I don't know. I thought it was a really interesting list. It was, I, I think my biggest thing with these lists sometimes is like, rarely are they super surprising. You know what I mean? Maybe it's like, you know, where you're like, oh, okay. Well, Olivia's 11 this year and you know, Alberta Ned is five instead of three.

• 22:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  But it's just moving the same players.

• 22:28Joe Flamm?

  Madison Park fell out of the top 10 or whatever it may be, right? So I think this one was like, there were surprises out there.

• 22:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 22:39Joe Flamm?

  At least for me.

• 22:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. I mean, and I like that. I like those surprises because sometimes the restaurants, if you don't have a Michelin star and you're on the list, that could be not just because Michelin hasn't rated your restaurant, but Michelin is not in every market.

• 22:54Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 22:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Michelin has to be brought into that market by the tourism board of that city. And so there are a lot of cities like Michelin didn't even come to the U S at all until what 2006? New York was the only city for a very long time. Then it started branching out to San Francisco, over to California. Now it's got, you know, so many more cities, but there are some cities like New Orleans that Michelin is not yet in.

• 23:22Joe Flamm?

  In, yeah.

• 23:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  But to see New Orleans restaurants represented and two restaurants I love, I've eaten at and I thoroughly love them. De Car Nola came in at number six.

• 23:35Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 23:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  And then Emerald's came in further back, like somewhere in the 30s, but those are two excellent restaurants that don't have Michelin ratings, but that's not because they're not great. It's just because Michelin is not in that market. So I think the North America 50 did a great job of, you know, hitting restaurants like, you know, Calaya.

• 23:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Restaurants like Dakar that have amazing food, restaurants like Emerald that have this recognition among chefs and among diners as being exceptional, but they just don't have that Michelin rating yet.

• 24:11Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I thought it was cool. I thought it was a good list and I thought it was like, you know, the stuff that was in those markets without, you know, the guy per se.

• 24:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:20Joe Flamm?

  It wasn't like obscure just to be obscure.

• 24:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 24:23Joe Flamm?

  And be like, oh, look at this place in Mobile. Like, you know what I mean? It was like, look at, you know, I think it was still like heavy hitters for what they are. So I thought it was one of the more interesting lists I think I've read in a while. And it's like, these lists are always goofy, right? You know what I mean? Because it's like, you made up criteria for like, you know, like, oh, it's the best restaurant. You know, obviously it's like, there's so many things that go into that. You know what I mean? Of like, and so I think there was some good variance in it. I'm sure people are gonna be super hot about it.

• 24:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, there's, you're never gonna make sense to everybody. You're never gonna please everybody. And I don't know how many judges, uh, North America or World's 50 has in any given market.

• 25:07Joe Flamm?

  Are you, are you a judge?

• 25:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  But from now, what from?

• 25:10Joe Flamm?

  Could you say if you were?

• 25:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  But from what I've heard, no. But from what I've heard, it's subjective. It's like, what made this a great meal? And you have to explain yourself and you have to prove that you actually dined there within the dining period, which I think is great because you can't just nominate your friends without showing a picture of a receipt or some other proof that you dined at that restaurant within the window that they're asking you for. So I love the integrity.

• 25:40Joe Flamm?

  Does that mean I have to start charging you if I want you to vote for me?

• 25:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I'm gonna need a check next. No, I don't need a check next.

• 25:52Joe Flamm?

  You just have to show a receipt, guys. I needed to take a picture of a receipt. It's really important. I can't explain why.

• 25:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Put it on my tab. No, but the the integrity for the process from some of the people that I've talked to, like, there's a woman named Jamila Robinson.

• 26:08Joe Flamm?

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Who who is over North America's 50 best. And we've I've seen her at events in New York. We've hung out at a couple of other food festivals. And she is so passionate about chefs and restaurants and finding good food. She wants a good taco. She wants a good, fine dining meal.

• 26:27Joe Flamm?

  Isn't she? She's head of her in chief of.

• 26:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Bon appetit. Yeah. Yeah, as of, I think she started in that position last year or two years ago.

• 26:36Joe Flamm?

  I think it's been two years.

• 26:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  But she's been with the world's 50 for a long time. And now she's over North America 50. But she is one of those people who can tell a good, fine dining experience versus a mediocre or not good one. Just because you put caviar and truffles on something does not make it good. You know, you're you're not, you can't polish a turd. You can't, you know, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. So Jamila is one of those people who can suss that out. So this woman eats at more restaurants than anybody I've ever heard of. It is insane. But she can tell the difference between a great taco and a not great taco. She can tell you

• 27:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  what goes into it behind the scenes at a level of somebody who doesn't work in food that I've never heard of. Listening to her describe food is like, oh, wow, she may not cook like that in a restaurant, but she gets it. So she definitely approaches this with a different lens.

• 27:35Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, so I think it was, like I said, one of the more interesting lists I've read in a while. I think you could argue the validity of rankings and all of that. And so how is this place better than that? But I think it's a super valuable. We are gonna get, I could go down this road forever, but we are going to get more into this in a couple of weeks because we are gonna have a sit down with. Legia Michelin from the New York Times.

• 28:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, Legia is the chief critic.

• 28:03Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, we're getting a critic in the room with us, which I am extremely excited about and have a ton of respect that she, for some reason, agreed to.

• 28:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  I don't know. She must, we must have caught her on a good day.

• 28:15Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I don't know. She must have, yeah, maybe she was bored. Just thought, why not?

• 28:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  But that's great because we talk about these things and chefs wonder, like, we work in food, but we're not the ones writing these. We're not the ones making the lists. So we want to know what people are looking for, what they're thinking about when they go to restaurants. And we kind of want to pick that apart a bit. So I'm really excited to talk with her and get a little deeper on that. Hopefully it doesn't get too contentious.

• 28:45Joe Flamm?

  I mean, come on.

• 28:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  I might have to rein you in, Joe.

• 28:49Joe Flamm?

  Me? Me? Mr. Serious?

• 28:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe Flamm?

• 28:53Joe Flamm?

  Mr. Serious guy?

• 28:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's you, right?

• 28:56Joe Flamm?

  I'm very serious, very uncontentious. You know, I would say I'm non-confrontational. I'm just, you know what I mean? Real, you know, go with the flow, Joe.

• 29:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  Go with the flow, Joe.

• 29:05Joe Flamm?

  I try to avoid me at all costs and, you know.

• 29:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Non-confrontational? You look for confrontation.

• 29:12Joe Flamm?

  I don't. It just finds me. Just finds me. Just minding my own goddamn business out here, Adrian.

• 29:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, one thing that I'm really excited, though, is World's 50, James Beard, Michelin. One of the coolest things about these is that it does help put butts in seats. So, like you said, we can argue the validity of the ranking, but one thing that I love about these is that if I'm going to a city and I'm looking at where to eat, I know these restaurants are going to be busy. I know that they're going to have, the staff is going to be employed. They're going to be able to keep their lights on. They're going to be able to pay purveyors and continue to do business. And that's one good thing about these lists is that they really

• 29:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  help keep our industry going because they help keep recognition for these places in the public discussion, so people can go to them.

• 30:06Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, no doubt. Like, you know what I mean? You could argue about the validity of the list all day, the order of it, whatever. But I would guarantee you that everybody on that list, their crew is fucking working their asses off day in, day out. So it's like, I'm happy for all of them. Like, it's, you know, kind of like we were saying earlier, it's hard as shit at this. So it's like, whatever you get, take it.

• 30:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  So Joe, what are we gonna do about our walk-in confession this week?

• 30:32Joe Flamm?

  I have a good one where it was one we thought we pulled it off. So I don't know if you're familiar with the Italian holiday of Ferregosto.

• 30:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  I've seen that written. I did not know how to pronounce it and I do not know what it celebrates. Can you give me a little more info?

• 30:51Joe Flamm?

  Of course. So Ferregosto is August 15th and a lot of Catholic cultures have a celebration around that. Because the August 15th, obviously, as you know, being part Irish, of course, you know, is the feast of the Ascension of Mary.

• 31:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, of course, totally.

• 31:09Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I didn't have to tell you that.

• 31:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, no, me and Mary feast every August 15th.

• 31:14Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, so you know, the Creations, they call it Vellegospa and the Italians call it Ferregosto. So in Ferregosto in Italy, it's kind of like the kickoff to, you know how like August, they kind of shut everything down and they all go vacation. It's like Ferregosto is like the big kickoff to that. It's a big beach house there. So you go and you have a big party. When I was at Spiaja, we used to have these Ferregosto parties. So we would have them on Oak Street Beach across the street from Spiaja. Remember the setup there? It was like right across Michigan Avenue. I could do like 17 walk-in confessions on all the things that happened at Ferregosto.

• 31:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's right. It was like right down from the Drake Hotel, right? Where the entrance to the beaches. Yeah.

• 31:53Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, you go through that super creepy death tunnel and you're right there. So we're doing this big party out there. The restaurant group I worked for, they had another like little beachfront property down there. That was like, you know, like a burger, you know, shack where they did like chips and salsa burgers, beers, like for beachgoers. So we would take it over for the night. We'd shut down Spiaja for the night. We'd roast whole lambs. You know, we'd roast them out on the beach. We'd do all this stuff, you know, we'd sell tickets to it. So we'd usually sell, you know, 150, 200 tickets to it. It was like a massive party. And now the backup plan, because obviously it's Chicago, it's August, it could rain. So first year, we learned this lesson. We had a pivot quickly. Second year, we had good weather.

• 32:35Joe Flamm?

  Third year, we knew we weren't looking good weather-wise.

• 32:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 32:40Joe Flamm?

  So we were ready for the pivot this year. You know what I mean? We had gotten bodied by it the first year, which is a story for another day.

• 32:49Joe Flamm?

  So year three, we're like, all right, it's, you know, Venn's gonna start in two hours. We gotta make moves here. We're gonna get rained out. So we move everything to the private dining room at Spiaja. Her huge, you know, that third floor up there, we had plenty of space. So we end up setting buffets up there. We bring all the food up there. We bring like bags up there, like we bring all the stuff up there. We just make it a party and we're like, this is great. Like it ends up being super fun. We're like, oh, we killed it. We got all the food off the beach. We got everybody off the beach. Like we got everybody over here. We marched everybody from the beach back to Spiaja. And like, you know, like somehow we pull it off. It's a great dinner. We're all just like really patting ourselves on the back.

• 33:31Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know what? Like we just mobilized, like we're just like, man, we are the green berets of this shit.

• 33:38Joe Flamm?

  And I'm looking around, we're like 20 minutes into, you know, 30 minutes into the party. Everybody's having a great time. I'm like, man, the room feels like, like, like, I'm like, I feel like we're like missing people. I'm like, did some people just like leave? Like I was talking to one of the managers, like some people just like not come over. They didn't want to come because it was on the beach anymore. They were like, no, everybody paid for tickets, like they came over. And I'm like, that's weird. I was like, maybe some people went to the dining room downstairs. Like they were confused.

• 34:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 34:08Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? And the dining room was closed for the night. So it's like, maybe they're confused and they're just sitting down there and, you know, so I'm gonna go downstairs. So, you know, 30 minutes in the party, I'm like, ah, I go downstairs. I get downstairs. There's only two people sitting at the bar in a dark dining room.

• 34:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, no.

• 34:26Joe Flamm?

  And I'm like, hey, like, you know, the party's upstairs. Like you guys just gotta like take the elevator up. And they're both like turn around, their faces are like ghost white. And they're like, we're not going back on that elevator. And I go, what do you mean? They're like, you didn't hear what happened? I go, no. So while we were patting ourselves on the back, apparently one of the elevators got stuck.

• 34:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, no.

• 34:53Joe Flamm?

  And people were trapped in there for like a half hour. Like the fire department came, jammed the doors open, couldn't get the elevator to move. So it had like half open and we're like pulling people out of the elevator.

• 35:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  What?

• 35:06Joe Flamm?

  And we're just all upstairs partying. We're like, woo, fairytale.

• 35:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my god.

• 35:12Joe Flamm?

  So I'm like, I'm like, wait, what? They're like, yeah, we were fucking trapped in the elevator screaming for like forty five minutes.

• 35:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my god.

• 35:20Joe Flamm?

  They're like, they finally got all of us out of here. We didn't know what to do. So we just walked in here. They're like, everybody else just left.

• 35:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, no.

• 35:28Joe Flamm?

  I'm like, um, do you guys want a drink? They're like, yes. And I was like, literally, I was standing, you remember the old Spiaja bar? It was the big bar right when you walked in the door.

• 35:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 35:38Joe Flamm?

  And I was like, point at any bottle behind me. I will pour you whatever you want.

• 35:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my god.

• 35:45Joe Flamm?

  So like, you know, I poured of each like, you know, a fucking hundred and fifty dollar glass of whiskey. And I'm like, I'm so sorry.

• 35:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Those poor people.

• 35:52Joe Flamm?

  I'm like, we had no idea. I was like, the party is still going on upstairs. I go, if you want to come.

• 35:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  upstairs, maybe?

• 35:58Joe Flamm?

  I go, there's a back staircase. Uh, we could walk up together. And they had their drink and they're like, you know what? Yeah, we'll come upstairs. And I like walked upstairs. But it was just like one of those like, we're like, oh yeah, we made it. No issues. Nothing went wrong. Everything's going so well.

• 36:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  And then at the five yard line, a whole elevator full of people gets stuck for forty five minutes. Oh. Oh, that is the most nerve wracking thing. If you've been on an elevator and it gets stuck, five minutes feels like five hours.

• 36:32Joe Flamm?

  Dude, I worked at one place where when I started there, they said, hey, the elevators get stuck here. And you're just going to get stuck. It was like a really old building and it was just like, it just happened. Cause we would have to, you were only allowed to ride in the freight elevators as an employee. You couldn't take the regular ones.

• 36:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 36:49Joe Flamm?

  And so just like on the reg, once every couple of weeks, you'd just be like.

• 36:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Was it like stuck for a long time or was it short? Oh geez.

• 37:00Joe Flamm?

  Sometimes. So it's like, if you had to bring stuff, they would always like during like dinners and stuff. They would be like, never take the elevator. Always take the stairs, even if it's like three, six, five floors, whatever. They're like, cause if you get stuck in the elevator, they're like chef will not care.

• 37:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  You're still late, that's on you.

• 37:17Joe Flamm?

  Look, he's still gonna be big mad.

• 37:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, God.

• 37:22Joe Flamm?

  That he's waiting for stuff for his course. So it was like, you know, I tried to avoid taking it at all costs, but every once in a while you'd just be like, and sometimes, you know, it was just three minutes, you know, and you're like, okay, you just got used to it. Um, sometimes it was forty.

• 37:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's like, uh, Sam Cass's walking confession caused by the elevator door closing. I think we all have an elevator story. I think I'll tell you mine next time. But damn, Joe.

• 37:47Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it was one of those ones where it was like, we were riding so high.

• 37:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Especially, I remember that party that you guys used to do on the beach. It was a massive operation. So to bring all of that up to Spiagge, move the party, move the food, move the people who plan on spending this day on the beach, up to the third floor and get all that moved and done. Oh, that's tough.

• 38:14Joe Flamm?

  For anybody who's never been to Chicago, never seen Oak Street Beach, it is across the street from Spiagge, right? However,

• 38:23Joe Flamm?

  it's across Lake Shore Drive is the street.

• 38:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  The street is a frickin highway.

• 38:28Joe Flamm?

  You can't walk food for a hundred and fifty people across the street. You could walk the people, but so you'd have to drive it. So we had to load up trucks on the lakefront trail, drive all the way up to North Avenue, which is six blocks down, go across Lake Shore, drive it six blocks back, unload it up to the third floor. So it's like, it was a massive logistical undertaking to make this happen.

• 38:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  And then you still have to set everything up.

• 38:56Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, set everything up, get it rolling. Like, we were there. We were there. We were absolutely there. We were like, we are just the shit right now that we just pulled this off. And then it was like, Well, we mostly pulled it off. It was like one of those things like, well, that wasn't like, that's like a building thing, not an us thing. But it's also like something that you could never explain to a person of like, hey, I like know you're mad at me about this, but it's like, not my fault. It's like when the valet fucks up and you're like, well, the valet doesn't work for me. The valet works for a valet company. They're like, yeah, but it's at your restaurant. It's like, no doubt. I see why you're mad.

• 39:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep. Yep.

• 39:33Joe Flamm?

  I see why you're mad. And I'm sorry, your car got stolen.

• 39:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  When anything goes wrong, you know, it's got, it's like you have to take responsibility. It's like customer service. You have to apologize on behalf of the elevator.

• 39:44Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 39:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Because it's part of their overall experience that you're providing. So you're not responsible for it, but you're still kind of responsible for it.

• 39:51Joe Flamm?

  Well, let me tell you, we gave kind of absolutely bodied refunds on that one, AJ.

• 39:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, gosh.

• 39:58Joe Flamm?

  That was not a, yeah, I think we operated that one at a loss. It was like.

• 40:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I'm sure everybody was like packing into the elevator so that they could all get up to the party. So that was not a small group of people. And those elevators were pretty big there.

• 40:13Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. So it was, I mean, it was a good, I think they had 20 people on that.

• 40:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, shiza. Oh, damn. That's a good walk in confession, Joe. I appreciate you sharing that, getting that off your chest.

• 40:28Joe Flamm?

  Ladies and gentlemen, for, for all those listeners out there wondering how you can keep yourself out of this situation, take the fucking stairs.

• 40:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  At all costs. Man, Joe, let everybody know where they can find us for next week's episode of The Chef's Cut. And we have a very special guest who is going to be with us.

• 40:50Joe Flamm?

  Make sure that you like, subscribe, wherever you're getting your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram at The Chef's Cut Pod. You can always find me in Chicago at any of the spots or at Insta Flam on Instagram. And Age, if they're trying to keep up with you and while you're traveling to see beautiful artwork like the room you're in, where they find you at, girl?

• 41:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  You can find me at Chef Adrian Cheatham on the Gram and you can like, subscribe and never miss a drop, which happens every Tuesday of our podcast to get all these fun stories every week. For me and Joe Flamm, this has been The Chef's Cut.

• 41:25Joe Flamm?

  Life beyond the past.