Harry Potter Is Being Banned. Why? - Megan Phelps-Roper

Megan Phelps-Roper is a social activist, public speaker and author known for her insights into religious extremism. Harry Potter is the most banned book of the 21st century. Firstly frowned upon by far Right Christian groups for its promotion of witchcraft, the controversy has recently pivoted to the far Left who have concerns that JK Rowling is promoting transphobia. The obvious question is, how did one of the most beloved children's authors of all time end up here? Expect to learn the reason behind the widespread backlash and cancellation of JK Rowling, whether Rowling is worried about ruining her legacy, how the platforms like 4chan and Tumblr were so pivotal in this movement, just how similar the trans rights movement is to the gay rights movement, Megan’s perspective on the “What Is A Woman” documentary, how Megan's upbringing in the Westboro Baptist Church gives her a unique perspective on this story and much more... Sponsors: Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first box at https://www.drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Get £150 discount on Eight Sleep products at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied) Get 15% discount on Craftd London’s jewellery at https://craftd.com/modernwisdom (use code MW15) Extra Stuff: Listen to The Witch Trials Of JK Rowling - https://open.spotify.com/show/2K186zrvRgeE2w0wQjbaw7 Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom - 00:00 Intro 01:40 What Interested Megan about Rowling’s Story 05:38 Why Rowling Wanted to Talk to Megan 09:11 Megan’s Experience Working with JK Rowling 13:00 Why JK Rowling Can’t Be Cancelled 18:43 The Evolution of the Internet 25:14 How Tumblr & 4Chan Changed Culture 30:43 The Left’s Weaponisation of Language 36:38 Why Do People Care about the Trans Debate? 41:21 How Clinicians View Trans Issues 48:46 What Megan Learned from Rowling’s Critics 54:42 Reacting to ContraPoints’ Video 1:07:58 Megan’s Thoughts on Matt Walsh’s Documentary 1:11:42 The Future of the Trans Debate 1:13:03 Where To Find Megan - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Generally, it is the Republicans who are saying men cannot get pregnant. And then you have somebody, generally a Democrat, saying men can definitely get pregnant. Nobody in this conversation, nobody is confused, but it is females who are getting pregnant. But the battle is over the language, what we are willing to say, whether we're willing to make these changes and make these accommodations for this very small minority of people. And for some people, it feels like so much is at stake on both sides.

• 0:27Chris Williamson?

  Harry Potter is one of the most banned books of the 21st century. Why?

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, for a lot of people, it was originally Christians. There was a certain, and not all Christians, but there was a certain kind of Christian who believed that they were losing the culture in the 90s. And I think Harry Potter was, it became like, it was the biggest target. But there were many things, if you look back, we examine this in our show. You look back, there is Sabrina, the teenage witch, and the craft, and Charmed, and just many, many different examples of witchcraft in the culture. And so Harry Potter became a huge target because a lot of people really loved it.

• 1:16Chris Williamson?

  How many bannings has there been in the last couple of years? Has there been any movement to try and get Harry Potter itself re-banned?

• 1:25Speaker 00

  There's been some, it's not a lot, it's definitely, I mean, I think it was a product of that moment in time. So it's definitely not been, I don't think, the same kind of, a target in the same way that it was in the 90s, for sure.

• 1:38Chris Williamson?

  What got you interested in the J.K. Rowling story?

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Well, if you, I mean, you can't have watched what happened in the summer of 2020. I mean, for me, that was really the, you know, she tweeted in the summer of 2020, June of 2020. And there was this massive backlash. And I think to a lot of people who hadn't been really following the conversation surrounding sex and gender, the nature of that backlash, the heated nature of it, it seemed...

• 2:09Speaker 00

  Almost incomprehensible. So for me, it was, I was coming from a place of ignorance and curiosity. And we're just really wanting to understand what was going on. And the more I started to look into it, the more, I mean, the more it seemed like the nature, the fact that the conversation was happening largely on social media was not serving anyone. It was, it definitely seemed to me to be inflaming, inflaming that conversation, to say the least. And so I ended up writing this letter to J K Rowling to try to find a better way of having that conversation. And really just, again, to understand what exactly was going on, what the nature of the controversy was,

• 2:49Speaker 00

  and why it seemed like everyone involved felt both embattled and, and just like, like so much was at stake.

• 2:59Chris Williamson?

  What did the tweet say? Let's say that someone isn't as terminally online as me or you are.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  Okay, so which, which, which tweet? The, the, the original tweet actually was December of 2019. And it came across as, I mean, I think to a lot of people as, as quite innocuous. It was something like, dress however you, dress however you please, call yourself whatever you like, sleep with any consenting adult who will have you, live your best life in peace and security.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  But force women out of their jobs for saying that sex is real. Hashtag I stand with Maya, hashtag this is not a drill. So that was actually J K Rowling's first tweet that was stepping into this, publicly stepping into this conversation around sex and gender. And like I said, to a lot of people, that, that seems like a really innocuous thing, even to many, and even to many trans people initially, like they read that as, as support, but pretty quickly that, that changed. It was, it was.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  How deeply do you want to get into this right now?

• 4:02Chris Williamson?

  Tell us, tell us what, tell us the uproar that occurred.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Um, so it was, it was seen as, you know, that she was kind of giving lip service to supporting trans people, but really she is a, you know, what is, what is called a TERF, a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

• 4:19Chris Williamson?

  Thinly veiled.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  Right, yeah, it is, it is, um, somebody who excludes, I mean, it's, again, it's in the term, it is, you're excluding trans women specifically from your feminism. And so, you know, people like J K Rowling, who were concerned, you know, she says that she supports trans people and then she wants them to be, be free to live their lives as they will, but that there are, essentially that there are places where the interests of, um, natal women, as she would say, people who are, you know, biologically or assigned female at birth is the term, um, that their interests conflict with, um, the interests of trans women. So, and, you know, we, in, in the series, we identified, we basically split it up into

• 5:03Speaker 00

  three categories, um, women's sports, women only spaces, and then youth transition. Those are, you know, the concerns of somebody like J K Rowling. Um, and, and part of the reason, I mean, J K Rowling herself and her story are fascinating and they, you know, that was, that was, it's a big part of the series, but part of the reason that Rowling is interesting too, is that, and, and why it's worth digging into her views, is that, uh, her views are shared by a lot of people. Um, and so it's, it's worth wrestling with those views just for that reason.

• 5:37Chris Williamson?

  I can't imagine how many letters J K Rowling gets, whether that be from a very enthusiastic 11 year old, or a very irate trans activist, or a well-meaning journalist, investigative reporter that wants to find out her views on something. Why did she reply to you?

• 5:56Speaker 00

  Um, well, she said that she had read my book, Um, Unfollow, which kind of chronicles my upbringing in the Westboro Baptist Church. Um, I, I've basically for the, it's been a little over 10 years since I left Westboro. This, um, very, you know, i- it's seen as kind of a cult, um, is, is what a lot of people call it. Um, it's largely my family and, and the short version is I left, um, I left the church and there thereby lost my family a little over 10 years ago. And in that time, I've talked about how, um, it was conversations with outsiders, civil discourse, you know, people who took the time to understand where I was coming from. Um, and to essentially help me find, you know, to, to sort of build a bridge from where I was to, to where they were.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  Um, and to find my way out of that, um, that kind of very radical, hard line, um, paradigm, ideological paradigm. Um, so I, you know, in spending that time and I, I, I don't, I don't demonize my family. I, I very clearly, you know, I've disavowed, you know, the things that we did and, and which I think were very harmful. It could be extremely cruel and destructive. Um, but I don't demonize them because I, I understand that basically everybody there was born there. They were born into this and, and sort of indoctrinated into it. And so, I mean, I think I've made a very, you know, um, you know, public, in a very public way, talked about the nature, the, the importance of,

• 7:24Speaker 00

  of that kind of conversation and, and that I was interested in trying to find that kind of a space for that kind of conversation in this public conflict on sex and gender.

• 7:33Chris Williamson?

  Right. So that is what forms the basis for your passion around this.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely.

• 7:40Chris Williamson?

  It's interesting. It's interesting to consider, you know, you being a part of a movement a while ago that would have seen J K Rowling and perhaps some of her work as a Dangerous influence on the youth. And there is now a new movement that sees J K Rowling as a dangerous influence on a different portion of the youth, which is the witch trials of J K Rowling, this sort of multi-headed sort of, not a joke, but a lot of references going on in one title, I suppose. Okay, so you send.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, like, there's another way to read the title as well, because, you know, that was, I think, the original, you know, those parallels was the original reason for the title. And then the more we looked into it, the more we realized, oh, my God, like, we can't call it that, you know, people are going to be really angry, like, this is, it's already, the conversation is already extremely inflamed. We don't want to add to that. But then we realized, you know, pretty quickly, people on all sides of that conversation use the language of witch hunts and witch trials, like, they see themselves. So some people see Rowling as the victim of a witch hunt, and some people see her as the prosecutor of one. They think that she is prosecuting or persecuting this, this very small minority of people who are already the target of a lot of other people.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  And so how, why, why would she add to that, essentially? So the title is, you're right, it's extremely multi-layered, much more complicated, I think, than a lot of people give it credit for.

• 9:05Chris Williamson?

  You send J K Rowling a letter. Surprisingly, she responds and says, come and see me. Talk to me about what it's like to go and sit down with J K Rowling. I imagine that the number of interview requests, especially for this kind of a topic, must have gone through the roof. And you are just some lady who's got a very extraordinary origin story, but in the nicest way possible, like, just some lady that wants to go and sit down.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  Some rando, yeah.

• 9:27Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, and have a conversation, you know, like, what's the trip to go and see her like, what's she like in person, and what did that feel like to actually do it?

• 9:36Speaker 00

  Um, so I actually had never conducted an interview before I sat down with her a little over a year ago now. And I was, I was really anxious. I mean, luckily. I mean, a few things. First, it was more akin to a conversation than an interview, which was really helpful for me personally. But secondly, I think, you know, she has a reputation of being extremely, you know, kind of, you know, controlling and like wants to control the conversation, things like that. You know, there's, there's a lot of stuff in the media about that. And I had read all those things and I had, you know, watched and listened to a lot of interviews that she'd given. And I was, I was really nervous for a lot of reasons. And I mean, I mean, I'm really grateful for the fact

• 10:18Speaker 00

  that she was incredibly kind, generous, warm, very easy to talk to. There was nothing, there were no ground rules. There wasn't anything like, you know, you can't ask about this. And, you know, when I very first started asking those, you know, questions, I, again, I had the impression that she didn't want to go back to the early days, you know, the early 90s, you know, when she's writing Harry Potter. And, you know, she had alluded in her, in the, an essay that she wrote in June of 2020, to her history as a survivor of domestic abuse. And she hadn't really given details about those things. And, and again, I just got the impression that she didn't want to talk about them. And, but almost immediately, I think I got maybe half a question out. And she just completely

• 11:01Speaker 00

  opened up. And, and, you know, I think it just spoke to the fact that she was really ready to talk about all those things. And so, yeah, I feel like I got, I got very lucky. I mean, she, she just was a very easy person to talk to and, and very warm and, and open with me, for sure.

• 11:15Chris Williamson?

  Having spent a good bit of time with her, was it nine hours in total?

• 11:18Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 11:19Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. So, large chunk of time, more than any of us are going to spend with J K Rowling. What have you come to believe about what's motivating her to take the stance that she is about this?

• 11:29Speaker 00

  I mean, I think there's a few things. I mean, there are moments in our series where she identifies specific things that, that caused her to speak up. One of them, you know, some of them are like the specifics of the conflict around sex and gender, you know, you know, that she is concerned for the fairness, you know, fairness of, in women's sports. She's concerned about young people and specifically, I mean, particularly young females medically transitioning as minors, you know. And so there are some very specific concerns that she has. But I think One of the things that seemed to be a big part of her decision to speak up was the way that other women were being shut down and the fact that there was very little

• 12:14Speaker 00

  space to be had in the public conversation without women having to fear for their safety or their livelihoods or even just like their public reputations. And so, in other words, it's the the no debate aspect of the conversation. And since she has money, she has influence, she has, you know, would she suffer? Has she suffered as a result of speaking up on these issues? Absolutely. But it's it's suffering that she can withstand. So she's, I think she sees herself as, you know, she has the privilege, if you will, to do that. And so that, you know, I think she felt that she had to.

• 12:53Chris Williamson?

  It's so hilarious to me, and kind of tragic, I suppose, that as I was walking around Universal Studios L A in Harry Potter World a couple of years ago, and it was just after J K Rowling had been popped for a lot of this stuff. And as I was walking around, I realized that there was expansions going on and there was live demonstrations and they were pretending to do wizardry and all sorts of stuff. And are we gonna, are you going to Orlando? There's a new ride that's opening up there in Harry Potter World over there. And it made me realize that so much of the performative empathy and virtue signaling that you see, especially from the capitalistic class that own these kinds of corporations

• 13:35Chris Williamson?

  that would quite happily change the display photo of their Twitter profile to a rainbow colored flag during Pride Month, but won't shut down Harry Potter World because it makes them money. And fundamentally, this is the protection that J K Rowling is afforded, not only because she is rich, so she has the sort of monetary resources herself to give herself security and and and safety and not be able to be canceled, quote unquote, in that regard. But all of these people need her. All of these people need her to keep on signing the checks that say, yep, that's another Universal Studios Orlando ride that's been opened up. This is part of the Harry Potter canon, someone, some Harry Potter legal expert that she probably employs somewhere. Who's like, this is within the prescribed rules or whatever it is.

• 14:20Chris Williamson?

  And yeah, it's, it's a kind of like, it does satisfy me in some regards, the fact that you're seeing a woman retain so much IP and so much power that she isn't, regardless of what she's saying and regardless of what you think about what she's saying. It's really cool to see somebody who has, who's unfuck withable, basically.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, that, that concept in general is intriguing to me because, I mean, you can kind of see it on both sides. You can see it as, like you said, unfuck withable, like because she has all this power, very different kinds of power, a lot of different kinds of power. And, but I think a lot of people who are in that same situation, those are all things that they can lose. And the sense, you know, the, the idea of loss aversion, right? It's, it's, you know, kind of central to, to human beings, you know? We, we don't want to lose the status and the influence and the power that we have. And so even people that you might consider, you know, they, they might be unfuck withable. Maybe, but they're not really willing, because they're not willing to lose that. They're not willing to take those risks.

• 15:26Chris Williamson?

  There's so much higher up the mountain that's further to fall.

• 15:29Speaker 00

  Right, exactly, exactly. And so it was, that's, it is an interesting aspect of this story for sure, because, you know, and asking her about that. And specifically, what was it that made her take that stand? And you can hear it, I mean, in, in, in the story that we tell, and we go back and you hear that she, you know, suffered in a lot of ways, that a lot of women suffer, you know, a lot of women are victims of domestic violence. A lot of women are, are survivors of sexual assault and things like that. And so you can hear the ways in which her past and her history influenced her decision to, to speak up on those issues.

• 16:02Chris Williamson?

  What does she think about people who say that she's ruined her legacy with the stance that she's taken?

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Well, this was something, it was a line that really stood out to us. You know, she said, you know, you basically, you don't understand me and you never understood me because I do, she said, I do not walk around my house thinking about my legacy. Whatever, I'll be dead. I care about now. I care about the living. So she's not thinking about those things. She's thinking about how are women and girls being affected and children being affected by these, these ideas in the here and now and what responsibility does she have to, to speak up about it?

• 16:42Chris Williamson?

  Has she got personal security concerns?

• 16:44Speaker 00

  Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that's been a consistent thing for her since Harry Potter became huge, but it's definitely been also, you know, the last few years, it's been particularly bad. I, that was my impression, I should say.

• 16:58Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. I, the, one of the most interesting things that I learned was this, um, you could almost say it's a, a full circle that's occurred. There was a landmark case of Harry Potter books being removed from being out front in a library and they were kept behind the librarian's desk for children who were of the right age to read them, but they had to get parental consent to go and read them. Then there was a basically like a freedom of speech request that was made, and this particular case was one, which meant that children were allowed to access books that were of the age that was appropriate for them. And even if you were worried that they were being indoctrinated into the occult, it had to be out front and they were allowed to read it. And the parents didn't, they didn't need to jump through all of these extra hoops. However, it seems like

• 17:42Chris Williamson?

  full circle, looking at some of the concerns that the right now has around LGBT books being placed in children's libraries, that some of the same legislation, tangential, similar parallels can be drawn between what was happening with Harry Potter books being permitted. That is now permitting LGBT books to be in children's libraries. There's an odd, odd sort of horseshoe going on there.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was, it was really interesting. You know, we interviewed these lawyers who, on both sides of that case. Both the lawyer who was arguing against those, you know, against those restrictions and the lawyer who was arguing for, for them.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  And it was really fascinating to hear them describe how that, you know, Harry Potter, those Harry Potter cases, you know, part of the legacy of those cases was that they were now protecting LGBT books, especially, obviously, in this current moment. It, it seems a little bit ironic.

• 18:38Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's strange. So you spent some time with historians and internet historians as well. What, what did you learn there?

• 18:47Speaker 00

  We, we were, you know, part of the story that we were trying to tell is kind of how, how the internet became this, you know, kind of much more judgmental, cruel place. Because, you know, and I also interviewed a lot of people, you know, those interviews didn't all make it into the series because we, we did so many of them and, you know, many of them were incredibly fascinating. And, but one of the things that I think was very sad to me as I was kind of going through all of this is, is how the kind of internet that existed, you know, in the 2000s and that was a place, I mean, like it was for me. I was, again, essentially a member of a, of a cult. I had been born and raised into this environment that was very, you know, we saw, it's this very us versus them environment.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  We saw outsiders as evil and they were hellbound and I couldn't trust them. And I was able to form these communities on, on Twitter. And I'm, my experience was typical, I think, of a lot of people who did not have those kind of, you know, weren't able to make those kind of connections in their physical space. And it's kind of very sad to see the way that the internet has changed over the past, especially the last decade or so. So we went through in episode three of our series to kind of track how those changes took place over time. And and essentially, we we ended up talking about these two, we zeroed in on these two forums, 4chan on the one hand, and then Tumblr on the other.

• 20:15Speaker 00

  And what you see, I mean, Angela Nagle is one of the women, you know, she's one of the internet historians that I spoke with. And she was basically, she used those two as exemplars. You know, 4chan is more male, more right-leaning, more kind of, you know, chaos. And then Tumblr leans more female, you know, both young. And and kind of, I don't know if virtue signaling is quite the right term there, but kind of like very, you know, trigger warnings and safe spaces and things like that, like we're kind of ascendant there. And you're seeing the the interplay within these communities and then also between them.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  You know, it's part of, it partly explains how those things came to be, if that makes sense.

• 21:06Chris Williamson?

  What role do both of these play in the story of how we get here?

• 21:10Speaker 00

  So with Tumblr, like, that was really the one that J.K. Rowling described as being, something that she, she was very interested, she said she was very interested in the use of the word "identify." And Tumblr was a place where people could go and play with identity. And, you know, as I said, you know, they, this whole kind of sensitivity culture, where, you know, you're trying to be very careful in the way that you talk to and about, you know, yourself and other people. You can play around with identity. So this is where, you know, like, I think it was like seventy-some different genders or something. And, you know, for a lot of people, we didn't see a lot of those things until it became

• 21:50Speaker 00

  like a news, a news clip, right, talking about the way that Facebook was, was having those things. So it became this, this news clip, right? Facebook is introducing, you know, seventy-some gender identities, and you could, you could, you know, choose whatever you. And so, but, but again, there, there were many aspects of Tumblr. Like, I think one of the, one of the big ones too was there was this blog called, or this account called, "Your Fave is Problematic." And it's kind of embodies and exemplifies this, this trend that I think, again, really took hold about a decade ago. And it's essentially, you are showing your righteousness by pointing out others' unrighteousness. So, um, somebody, you know, they're, they're digging through your old tweets.

• 22:35Speaker 00

  They're looking at all of, um, all of your behavior, like trying to find the thing that shows that you are a bad person. And because I, you know, I, I can identify those things, that makes me a good person. Um, and so, you know, this, there, there's, it's so funny because like, as I'm describing some of these phenomena, like this was absolutely representative of my experience at Westbrook. We were constantly scouring, um, the news and the media, like looking for things that we, that, that showed that other people were bad and wrong and going to hell. And it, we saw it as our duty, like this was, this was, again, a way to show that we were on the right side. Um, and so I, I don't, you know, see any of these things as, you know, I, I'm not trying to like condemn people

• 23:19Speaker 00

  for engaging these kinds of behaviors. I think I, I, I understand and, and can see where it's coming from. And, and even that it's coming from an attempt to, you know, be a good person yourself. Um, and yet in the prosecution of those, um, of those ideas and, and trying to tear down other people. You know, there, there's this amazing line from one of the contributors to the show, Natalie Nguyen, where she says, um, "You're, you're trashing people, but you feel like you're crusading." And I think that's very much representative of, of, you know, this aspect of, of internet culture that I think has made things so much uglier and certainly less pleasant.

• 24:01Chris Williamson?

  Hmm, that righteous retribution. I think J.K. Rowling brings up as well that this is a central theme within some of the books, that some of the most atrocious things that have been committed throughout all of human history have been done by people that were thinking that they were the good guys. Very few people actually do bad things in full knowledge of the fact that they're the baddies. There's that, um, famous sketch from a, a British sketch show where it's two Nazis and they're talking to each other and they turn toward the end and they say, "Hang on." Are we the bad guys? And it's just that sort of they realize, oh, my God, maybe we're on the other side. And then they cast it off and then they realize it's not. Okay, so.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  And I think, I mean, to me, that that is a very hopeful thing because when the fact that to my mind, I mean, I think it's it's unless you are a literal psychopath or sociopath, most people like really think that they are doing the right thing. And the fact that their intentions are good, to me, like I said, is a hopeful thing because it means there's something that you can tap into. Like, if you can help them, you know, reframe the situation or introduce, you know, the kind of complicating factors and, you know, alternate perspectives, there's there's hope for change and improvement.

• 25:13Chris Williamson?

  How is it that one account on Tumblr and even Tumblr itself? I don't know how many users were on that social media platform, but I wasn't no one that I know was much. That might be because I didn't have many girlfriends like when I was younger. How can that be sufficiently influential as to move culture a decade later?

• 25:37Speaker 00

  So the way that it was described in the show by the and it was the really interesting thing was, you know, as we as we were interviewing these people and all three of them, all three of these internet historians were telling the exact same story, which is, you know, these these kind of norms were taking hold on places like Tumblr. But it was when they migrated from Tumblr to Twitter, which, again, another amazing line from Natalie Nguyen in that show. She says Twitter is politics, full stop. And like, so it is when when when these norms migrate to a place where there's a lot more users and a lot more, you know, people like influential people, people in the media, journalists, politicians.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  That's when it really takes off and becomes kind of ascendant in culture much more broadly.

• 26:25Chris Williamson?

  What's the role that Fortune plays?

• 26:27Speaker 00

  4chan, so the way that Angela Nagel described it, she's essentially saying, like, when you have these two groups, so you have, there's the interplay within the group, right, where that kind of like pushes people to double down and become more and more extreme within their group. And then it becomes like this feedback cycle between the groups. So in seeing the extreme nature, you know, and especially like, so you have extreme sensitivity on Tumblr and extreme antisensitivity on 4chan. Seeing that what is happening on the other site and the extreme nature of it in your eyes, it causes you to think that, I mean, it helps you, kind of pushes you into this idea that your political,

• 27:09Speaker 00

  it helps persuade you that your political project is necessary, is how she put it. And so, again, being among all these people who are confirming your values and then seeing what's happening on the other side is, is, does that make sense? It's like, it's, okay.

• 27:26Chris Williamson?

  It creates like a recursive antagonistic feedback loop, right?

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly.

• 27:30Chris Williamson?

  And then when you roll into it trolls who use Poe's law to basically ruin the entire game. You know, the number of trends that have come out of 4chan, I'm actually friends with who was, he no longer is, but the only guy that was a public moderator of 4chan. And yeah, he's got a few interesting stories. And yeah, it's just, it's such a Hydra head to even try and get that to work. One of the interesting things that I kept on thinking about, and you touched on it with how many people became friends and probably got married because they bonded when they were kids or late adolescence over the Harry Potter books. There's such a difference between whatever 25 years ago, when the Harry Potter books came out and the internet was burgeoning,

• 28:13Chris Williamson?

  and the story that we're talking about now, which is much more familiar to everyone that's listening, which is no longer about this sort of nostalgia for the internet of making friends, but it's the internet of making enemies now. And again, that trajectory, which I think a lot of people who are, you know, millennials will be able to feel because they would have remembered what life was like before, then they would have remembered what life was like maybe during the, you could call it the brief golden years of the internet. And then the very quick pivot into whatever the world is that we're in now.

• 28:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's defining, it's like we used to define ourselves by what we were for. And now on the internet, we are defining ourselves by what we are against. And I think that's again, part of the interplay between seeing, you know, each, each side seeing what's happening on the other, on the other platforms.

• 29:01Chris Williamson?

  You've got this great quote, "The language of public life has lost the character of generosity."

• 29:06Speaker 00

  Yes, that's actually, it's not my quote, I should say, that's my, one of my favorite authors, Marilynne Robinson. And I just, I was reading something, something of hers and when I saw that quote, I was like, that is, it's the understatement of the century. But it is that the loss of the ability to recognize that other people are human beings who are also on a journey. Like, we recognize that about ourselves, that, you know, our, we kind of are able to recognize that, you know, we are not who we were yesterday. And the ways that we screwed up in the past, you know, we can, we can learn better, we can do better. We feel that hope for ourselves. But again, that the language of public life has lost the character of generosity. Like, we, we feel like we have to judge people, you know, based on who they are right now.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  And the sense that, that there is no hope for them. And, you know, that, like, that, again, to me, that, that loss is, we've lost something real and valuable and good. You know, the, the epigraph of my book is this line from The Great Gatsby that goes, "Reserving judgments is a matter of infinite hope." And to me, that is just the encapsulation of this idea of grace, right? That the willingness to see other people as being on a journey and that there, there's hope for them to grow and change. We have that same hope for ourselves and, and that we can contribute to their lives and their understanding of the world in a way that, that could actually help them.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  So, again, the loss of that generosity, I think, is part of what leads to this, like, incredibly judgmental, condemnatory mindset that I, I recognize so well from my upbringing.

• 30:42Chris Williamson?

  Continuing to track the journey or the propagation, I suppose, of this, this worldview. It seems like the impositions on language have really been a flashpoint for a lot of this stuff. That that moment when language began, there were proposals to change it, the accusations that it was being perverted or it was being miscarried, that seems to have been something that... Why do you think that it, why is, why is language been such a important ground zero for this conversation?

• 31:16Speaker 00

  Do you mean specifically in sex and gender?

• 31:18Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  Because we're, because it's representing like what, how, how we see reality, right? Like that's, that's the whole point. Like, can we talk in a way, can we communicate in a way that we can? I mean, so this is why, like, just imagine for a second, like, I think we've all seen the video clips of politicians who are fighting over the idea, like, whether, whether men can get pregnant. And when these people are having these public battles, you know, and, you know, you have the, generally it is the Republicans who are saying, men cannot get pregnant. And then you have, you know, some, somebody generally a Democrat saying, men can definitely get pregnant. Nobody in this conversation, I think nobody is confused about whether, like, that it is females who are getting pregnant.

• 32:06Speaker 00

  But the battle is over the language, right? And, and like what we are willing to say, whether we're willing to make these changes and make these accommodations for this very small minority of people. And for some people, like, again, it feels like so much is at stake on both sides. They think we are being asked to change or to, to alter our understanding and our ability to talk about reality. Like, that's, that's almost, excuse me, that's almost exactly what Rowling, you know, is saying in episode seven, when we talk about that, this question. And, and then on the other side, again, it feels like, I'm trying to think, like, what, like, because maybe a succinct way of putting it is like, one side thinks, this is such

• 32:50Speaker 00

  a small change that we're asking, and it's not, it's not that, like, why, why is this a problem? Why can't you just alter this and accommodate these people? It is just the kind and right thing to do. And the other side is saying, we have to be able to talk about reality. We have to be able to say clearly what is happening, you know, and, and we shouldn't alter, we shouldn't have to alter what we, how we understand the truth and reality. And so, yeah, it, it, it's, it's like, it's a very kind of frustrating place to be, I think, for people, because one side is saying, it's not that big of a deal, just, you know, like, you think about it, like, think about, like,

• 33:33Speaker 00

  Misgendering or something like like misgendering is not that big of a deal like why why why do you take this as such a huge thing and they're asking it's not that big of a thing why can't you just do it you understand so like they both are kind of like minimizing the the negativity like experienced by the other side um and that's again it's a very it's a very hard place to be.

• 33:55Chris Williamson?

  This has been propagated a lot by journalists both traditional media and new media as well. What did the journalists that you spoke to contribute to this discussion what did they have to say about why this had taken hold so much?

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Um, I mean, I think one of my really um most interesting conversations I had was with this journalist Michelle Goldberg who's been covering this for a long time. I mean more than a decade, I think at this point. Um, and you know, the way that she described was essentially that again, everybody, everybody, both sides, both the, you know, trans people and, you know, the quote unquote TERFs, right, like J K Rowling, um, you know, feel very embattled. Like, these are people um who who feel like so much is at stake, right? Um, and and again, when that is the case, like, it's very hard for people to let go of their pain long enough to hear what the other side is experiencing. Um, and because I think a

• 34:52Speaker 00

  lot of people have opted out of the conversation, um, because of how toxic it is, um, what you're left with is kind of the people who feel the strongest on both sides, um, and who have taken kind of the hardest lines in the most extreme positions, um, that like those are the people who those are the voices that you hear. And again, that feedback cycle is incredibly destructive.

• 35:13Chris Williamson?

  It feedback feeds back in a very strange way as well that if there is uh an increasing sensitivity on both sides to anybody who seems to cede ground to the other as being accused of being whatever or whatever, that causes fewer and fewer people who aren't one hundred percent absolutely ardent about their view to wade into the topic because unless you're unbelievably compelled to do it, why would you bother to step foot into this absolute cesspool which creates an incentive to push this out only to the absolute edges? It's only the people who are the most ardently for or the most ardently against are going to step into this conversation because get fucked if you think that the moderate person's going to do it because they're just going to get caught in a ton of crossfire.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know exactly. And that it is that exact, that's absolutely part of the dynamic that led me to write that letter to J K Rowling. Like, there, there has to be a way of articulating these things and, and, and talking to people and hearing what they actually believe. And again, not the most extreme versions of, of all these positions. Because that's, you know, you're, you essentially get straw, straw man, just over and over again. And, and, yeah, that you've, we, you hear so many people articulate that exact thing. Why would I step into this when the stakes are very high? It doesn't seem like it affects me personally. And, and there, there is no upside here. There is no upside, is, is.

• 36:35Chris Williamson?

  That's, that's a good, an interesting question. Why has this become such a huge issue that is spread across corporations, news commentators, reactionary talking heads, all of that stuff, when it's only an issue that affects one percent of the population, something like that, it's a very small number of people, compared with this huge, huge amount of attention that's being given to it? What's going on?

• 37:01Speaker 00

  I mean, I think it's, it's because it's become a moral flashpoint. Like, it is a discerner. Like, are you on the right side, or are you on the wrong side? And when, I think when that is the case, and especially, you know, one of the, one of the things that's come up a lot is essentially with LGBT rights, you know, when same-sex marriage was one in, in this country, you know, it's like, all these organizations essentially, you know, that were, that were existing to try to ensure that that, that we, we got that right, one in this country. They still exist. And it, like LGBT, so the T part of it, right, like the trans rights essentially was like the, the next frontier. People saw it as the next

• 37:45Speaker 00

  frontier. Like, this is just this kind of besieged minority, and we need to take care of these people. And so I think because people saw that as the natural extensions, it's the next battle, you know, it, it, it has become the flashpoint.

• 38:03Chris Williamson?

  Is, is the trans rights movement any different to the gay rights movement?

• 38:07Speaker 00

  Well, that's, I mean, this is what people are having these kind of major battles over at this point, because there are people who say, no, absolutely not. It is the same, the same kind of persecution, the same kinds of arguments are being made against trans people as were made against gay people and bisexual people. And, but then you have people on the other side who are saying, no, this is actually fundamentally different. And in fact, this is actually one of the complicating factors that ultimately led me to, you know, take on this project, because, you know, I'm also not immune to the kind of, the fear, you know, I mean, ultimately, when I first went down this path, my, my friend Andy Mills was the

• 38:48Speaker 00

  one who, who called me with his idea for this show a couple of years ago. And, you know, I was really interested. I immediately started, you know, researching and sending him all these things like, oh, my gosh, you have to include this in the show. It's, it's really fascinating. And then when he asked me to, to host, I definitely, I took a while before I said yes. And I spent that talking to, to trans people and to, but also, I mean, to gay and lesbian people. And it was really fascinating to hear them describe, I should say, not, not all of them, but they were, they were describing an element of homophobia in the trans rights movement, which is essentially, if you are same sex attracted, if you are

• 39:30Speaker 00

  a lesbian and you're excluding trans women from your dating pool, then you are transphobic, and that there, there's something wrong with you. And, you know, hearing these kinds of things from gay and lesbian people in my life, and hearing kind of this anguish, I would say, you know, essentially saying they had fought people like my family, me and my family, for a very long time, you know, who'd been telling them there's something wrong with you for being same sex attracted. And now they were getting it, you know, very similar. Kinds of criticism from the progressive left and it was

• 40:08Chris Williamson?

  Something wrong with you being same sex attracted. There's still something wrong with you being same sex attracted.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:13Chris Williamson?

  What's it uh genital fetishists.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  Genital fetishists, exactly. I mean, and it's, you know, obviously like not all trans people feel that way or or or try to, you know, take those positions, but there are, you know, some who who are. But again, that's what was so fascinating. Like the series is, you know, we have seven episodes. It's it's, you know, essentially, you know, about seven hours of material. There was so much more. There are so many, like, it is one of the most fascinating, incredibly rich topics. And the fact that so many people opt out of the conversation because of.

• 40:46Speaker 00

  Oh, and I I'm not, I don't just mean this from like from a curiosity perspective. I mean, like, real people's real lives are affected by by the answers that we will eventually come to, um, you know, in these conversations around sex and gender. And and it's like, yeah, we I I'm still absolutely persuaded that we have to be able to have these conversations.

• 41:09Speaker 00

  As calmly and kindly and civilly as possible, because again, people do feel like so much is at stake, so many really important aspects of who they are and the way that they live their lives.

• 41:20Chris Williamson?

  What did the clinicians have to say?

• 41:23Speaker 00

  When it comes to clinicians, there's a lot of different, um, you know, kinds of opinions, um, about it. Well, I think one thing, though, that is clear from everybody that I spoke to, um, and that includes people like Dr. Mercy Bowers, who's the head of WPATH, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health.

• 41:42Speaker 00

  Uh, you know, essentially, all of them agree that we do not have enough information. There is not enough research. Dr. Bowers told me that I think it was like eighty percent of the research that has been done with youth medical transition has been done in the past ten years. So it's very recent, you know, a lot of these professional associations in other countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, the UK, actually, just in the past few days, um, you know, have really pulled back um, some of these treatments, things like puberty blockers. And now they essentially are not going to be using them outside of research contexts. So a lot is changing. Um, but I think the kinds of, you know, concerns that a lot of people had, including J K Rowling, um, you know.

• 42:27Speaker 00

  They're not completely unfounded, absolutely not.

• 42:30Chris Williamson?

  Did you read Time to Think by Hannah Barnes?

• 42:32Speaker 00

  I I've read part of it, yes, and I have seen a lot of her and and everything that she talks about, that is exactly the kind of thing that that Rowling was worried about. And I think a lot of people who are concerned about youth gender transition. I don't know if you've seen, you know, Helen Lewis actually had a I interviewed her in the series. She she will actually be in the epilogue that'll be out later this month.

• 42:55Speaker 00

  You know, she she wrote a thing for The Atlantic, a piece in The Atlantic, and essentially said neither the, you know, the attempts to compel, you know, you know, youth transition or to completely ban it. Neither of those things is the answer is essentially where she comes to. And I think it's a it's a really fascinating argument.

• 43:16Chris Williamson?

  Hannah was on the show, and for the people that didn't see it, she basically present, I I couldn't believe how carefully she tread, which I thought was very impressive. It's super, super, super gentle. Anything where she was out of her skis, where there wasn't evidence she was she was pushing back against. But she basically said puberty blockers, and the book's called Time to Think, because that's what puberty blockers were advertised as being, that it just puts a pause. Pause on puberty, get rid of the blockers, and then puberty will be re begin and everything ends up being the same. But it's an ironic title because it doesn't give you time to think. And there is an unbelievably high percentage of children who go on puberty blockers,

• 43:59Chris Williamson?

  who end up essentially on a set of train tracks that results in gender reassignment surgery in their late teens. And, you know, there is an interesting question. Are these young children mentally disturbed because they're trans? Or are they trans because they're mentally disturbed? How many people that are suffering with autism spectrum disorder, with obsessive compulsive disorder, with a number of other issues? Are coping with them, especially as a girl, because it's the increase is rapidly, rapidly occurring in F to M as opposed to M to F. I'm now a girl. I am being seen as a sexual object by my peers. I wasn't previously. My body's changing. This is scary. I don't know what's going on.

• 44:44Chris Williamson?

  I have more than ever comparative views of what femininity is supposed to be on the internet, whether that be hypersexualized or whether that be like inverse or reverse mimesis, negative mimesis of being a tomboy. And maybe I don't fit into this and maybe I've got autism spectrum disorders. I'm already not very ladylike and ah, maybe I'm just a boy or maybe I just want to take time. But that time to think, isn't time to think. It's time on a set of train tracks that ends up with you getting into transitioning. And yeah, it's, it's pretty scary and you know, I'm not in the UK anymore, but the gender identity thingy service at the Tavistock Clinic.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:20Chris Williamson?

  Didn't do a good job.

• 45:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, that's Dr. Erica Anderson, who I also interviewed for the show, you know, each of these things, it's a very individualized, like we have to be able to look at and examine and have each of these, you know, young people actually be examined and go through a, I think what you call it, a bio psycho social profiler, I think that's what she called it. And places like, you know, what we're at the gender identity service at Tavistock were overwhelmed essentially with patients and not really following those protocols, I think is, you know, one of the, one of the findings of the CAS report. So, you know, in the absence of those things. But I mean, I should say though, too, I interviewed this wonderful trans boy named Noah, who had

• 46:06Speaker 00

  top surgery as a 16 year old. I interviewed him shortly after he turned 17 and he's an incredibly smart, emotionally intelligent, like if you listen to that, like, you know, he is somebody who really deeply, like I think, one, he definitely got care that was much better than kind of what was described at the Tavistock. But also, again, just, just an incredibly smart and emotionally intelligent, like, you know, person who really wrestled with all of the, you know, potential consequences, you know, you know, thought about like, what if I eventually come to detransition? And when I asked him about that, he basically said, if I eventually, you know, decide to detransition.

• 46:50Speaker 00

  I will have lived to regret my transition. Like, he basically was saying, if he had not transitioned, he would have committed suicide. So, you know, it's, it's, it's an incredibly complicated, um, you know, set of circumstances. And I, I really feel for the parents who are trying to figure out like, what is, what is the best way forward? And it's an, you also hear, you know, one of the criticisms that we got from people on the show is, um, you know, why didn't we talk to a detransitioner? But then you also have, you know, people who wish we would have talked to somebody who was not allowed to transition as a minor, who didn't have the kind of, um, you know, a, a trans person who did not have the kind of support that Noah had from his parents.

• 47:32Speaker 00

  And essentially were forced to go through what they describe as the wrong puberty. So, you know, a, a trans girl who was forced through male puberty because they didn't get treatment. And now as an adult has to kind of undo all of those things. And, you know, it's, it's, like I said, it's a, it's a really complicated and, and, um, it's a really complicated thing to try to figure out from a policy perspective, like what is, what is the right way? What is the right thing to do?

• 47:59Chris Williamson?

  And even more complicated from a publishing perspective on how to say these things without putting your foot on some sort of tripwire for one side or the other. Ultimately, I, I think when it comes to the conversation, which is, you know, there are a number of different layers to what you're talking about. The, the, um, history of where this has come from, the implication for why it is happening, the experience of the people that are going through it, the consequences for society and for other groups who are infected, uh, affected by the people who go through it, the conversation and why that's become so polarized. You know, it doesn't matter how terminally online you are, even if it's as much as me or you with regards to this kind of an issue, there are so many unseen holes in the floor that you can just stick your foot through.

• 48:41Chris Williamson?

  But you did spend a good bit of time on the show, talking to critics of, uh, J K Rowling, talking to activists from the LGBT movement, et cetera, et cetera. What did you learn from spending time with them? Because I think, at least as far as I can see.

• 49:01Chris Williamson?

  A lot of people are very familiar with the pushback, with the well-meaning pushback especially, against these sorts of policies. It is pretty self-evident why biological men invading women's spaces, whether they be bathrooms or prisons or psych wards or hospitals or whatever, could cause complications downhill. What were your eyes open to when you spoke to critics of J.K. Rowling?

• 49:27Speaker 00

  Well, when I talked to Noa, I mean Natalie and Noah are the two primary critics we actually featured in the show, because I really felt like their description, their ability to, I think, help people understand where they're coming from. Because, again, online, you get a lot of this kind of very, it seems like hyperbolic, overstated, and you can really hear the pain, frankly, from people like Natalie and Noah. They don't, and again, Noah especially, he basically was saying, he didn't want J.K. Rowling to not express her opinions, her concerns, over all the things that we just described.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  The youth, you know, youth medical transition, you know, children transitioning too young before they have a real ability to understand the permanent, in many cases, changes that they are making to their bodies. So it's not that they, you know, think that her, they basically think that she's not engaging in good faith. That's what Natalie said. And then with Noah, again, basically saying the story that is told, because she has such a massive platform, and because she has been, you know, the victim of this kind of, again, overstated, kind of hyperbolic, the threats and things that she has received have been highly publicized.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  And basically, she was, I mean, sorry, basically Noah was saying that those things are true and they're real, but they essentially take the focus off of the fact that trans people are highly marginalized. They are often excluded from society. They are treated like outcasts in many situations. Many people don't have, again, Noah's, the support that Noah has from his family, from his parents, you know, as Natalie was saying, these people are, you know, cast out by their families, cast out by society. Targeted by the government, you know, their, their healthcare being banned and, and in some cases criminalized. The fact that Rowling essentially takes up so much air in that conversation, even

• 51:36Speaker 00

  though the things that are being said about her are true, they are essentially giving the, a view of something that is, of the situation that is false. Does that make sense? Because the, because the scale is not, is not fairly, um, does that make sense?

• 51:51Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it does. I'm, I'm thinking about how even within that, even within J K Rowling's contribution to this conversation, even that's multi-layered, right? So, so her concern about some of the extreme and very dangerous implications of self-ID, of men and women's spaces, biological men and women's spaces, et cetera, et cetera. That captures a portion of the conversation, which I'm going to guess that ContraPoints and, and Noah don't, you know, a biological man who hasn't gone through, who doesn't have gender dysphoria, who hasn't decided that they're going to try and make any effort

• 52:33Chris Williamson?

  to transition, something tells me that neither of them would say yes to that too, because that makes their own case for legitimate trans people weaker. Or at least it's good, then it's not going to be the, you know, first thing that they're going to charge out of the gates trying to get, they're going to try and help people that they think are genuinely suffering and could do with some treatments that are going to assist them. But because that's what J K Rowling has kind of captured as part of the conversation. And then the backlash to J K Rowling, which has been from the more militant parts of the LGBT movement, also captures and jades both sides. It riles up the opposition and say, see, that I thought you were supposed to be for tolerance and inclusion. You, you, this is complete rank hypocrisy. You're evidently, you evidently don't care about this thing.

• 53:17Chris Williamson?

  And then that bad mouths the people on their own side because they think, no, no, they don't represent us. And yeah, it's the ever escalating echo chamber incentive causes people on both sides to misrepresent both their own and each other's. And it's that sort of recursive antagonism that ever, ever worsens and escalates.

• 53:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, and again, this is exactly, exactly the kind of situation that I was seeing when I wrote that letter to Rowling. Like there, there just has to be a better way. And I, I, I really think that we, you know, you described all the landmines that it's very easy to step in completely unwittingly, just based on the terminology that you use. And so, I mean, it's, it's, it's really wild, actually, how much time we spent trying to get the language so that it is intelligible, right? Because even for people like to say trans women, a lot of people, even, you know, like, I would say like, lefty people that I know, um, you say trans woman and they would say like, oh, is that a man who wants to be a woman or a woman who wants to be a man? Like, I mean, it is, it is very hard to parse a lot of this language because sex and gender

• 54:20Speaker 00

  are so kind of central to our understanding of the world. And so, so, yeah, like trying to figure out exactly how to speak in such a way that you are intelligible, um, but also not showing that you are, you know, have your thumb on the scale for one side or, or the other. It is, it is quite, and this is again, one of the many reasons that many people opt out entirely.

• 54:42Chris Williamson?

  Did ContraPoints do that video with the same title before or after you spoke to them?

• 54:48Speaker 00

  After, yeah.

• 54:49Chris Williamson?

  How do you feel about that video?

• 54:51Speaker 00

  I mean, I am really, um, I really wish, um, I could have talked to Natalie again because I really, really like Natalie. Um, I watched that video that she made, The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling. Um, and I mean, honestly, for several weeks beforehand, she was teasing that she was working on a video and I, I was really, um, I was like, oh, God, it's gonna be, it's gonna be about us. And I, you know, I mean, I will say though, like, as I watched the video, there was, there were a lot of things that I was, you know, I'm, I'm really trying to, you know, follow, um, follow her argument and try to understand where she's coming from and, and, you know, obviously I hate the fact that she regrets talking to us because I think we, we really,

• 55:33Speaker 00

  so many people see episode six that features her so heavily. Um, like, that was really challenging, I think, for a lot of people who thought they were just, you know, essentially unquestioningly on J.K. Rowling's side. Um, and the kind of, um, you know, she, she just, I think, represented herself really, really well in that conversation. And it was really powerful. Um, but when I was watching the video that she made after the fact, um, you know, there, there were several things that really stuck out to me and I'll just like go into one of them maybe right now. She just was describing this, um, anti-gay activist named Anita Bryant in the video.

• 56:10Speaker 00

  And what she said was Anita Bryant, like she's basically attacking my, you know, my view that as I was saying earlier, that that having civil conversation, open dialogue with people who think differently than you, like that is the way forward to my mind. And I think it is the most effective way to change hearts and minds and find a way forward when we live in a pluralistic society. So that's, that's the idea of mine that I think that she's attacking in this part of the video. And one of the things that she said was JK Rowling, I'm sorry, she said Anita Bryant didn't need to be persuaded, she needed to be defeated. And that really stuck with me because I was thinking like, but what does that mean? What does it mean for Anita Bryant to be defeated?

• 56:54Speaker 00

  I mean, I think what it means is that her, it's for her ideas to be defeated, right? And what does that mean? It means that people are persuaded that her ideas are wrong. So it still comes down to persuasion. We still have to engage with these ideas, particularly ones, as I was saying earlier, particularly these ones that are so, that are so mainstream that so many people share. And if we don't engage with those ideas, I don't know how, how will she win? I guess is my question. And the really interesting thing is that Natalie herself says this in the series. Realistically, that is the trajectory, like how, you know, same sex marriage was one because gay people came out to their family and friends and said, no, we are not groomers.

• 57:37Speaker 00

  We're not trying to like, you know, indoctrinate your children. We're not trying to, you know, turn them gay. Like, we're just people who happen to love people of the same sex. So, yeah, that was one of the things for me, watching Natalie's videos, like I actually don't think that we are so much at odds when it comes to exactly how, and how to move forward from all of this.

• 58:00Chris Williamson?

  I wonder whether, or how much of that could have been silenced, would have been like defeated is another way to have said that would have just been not given a platform at all.

• 58:15Chris Williamson?

  I don't know, the, the, I, I, I understand why.

• 58:20Speaker 00

  She wasn't advocating that in the series, though. I mean, or sorry, she wasn't advocating that in the video, though. She was advocating.

• 58:25Chris Williamson?

  I just don't understand how you square the circle of allowing somebody to speak, but also saying that it was wrong to let them speak. Like, if defeated means ideas defeated, but you can't hear the ideas, how are you supposed to defeat them?

• 58:37Speaker 00

  Right. I mean, again, in this, in her video, she was describing a lot of like particular things that gay activists, gay lesbian activists did in the seventies and eighties. You know, they put Anita Bryant's face on toilet paper and they made fun of her and they, you know, she kept going back to this moment where somebody smashed a banana cream pie into Anita Bryant's face during this like live TV interview or whatever. And she keeps going to that moment, going back to that moment. And I'm just saying, it's like she's saying that I, like, my position is never make fun of people, never. You know, you should never, you know, show that you are angry, disgusted. I never said any of those things. What I said was that I think that the most compelling, the most effective way to create change

• 59:22Speaker 00

  is to engage, to really engage with the ideas, right? Civil conversation that makes, where people feel like their ideas are being heard and addressed. Again, like this is something that completely changed the trajectory of my life. And I was absolutely, I was so hardcore. I mean, I, I was raised in it from the age of five. And in spite of myself and in spite of every intention that I had of, you know, preaching this, this message and, and certainly it might, I was never going to change my mind about any of it. And in spite of all those things, the power of civil conversation, again, changed the course of my life and it meant that I lost my family. I mean, I, I left, you know, I left everything that I, and everyone that I knew and loved.

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  As a result of those conversations. And I don't think that I am unique. I think that when people, when you've, when you engage with what they actually believe and actually, you know, treat them like a human being. It, it, I, I don't think that the way that I responded was, like I said, I don't think that was unique. I think I responded in a very human way to people who treated me like a human being.

• 1:00:33Chris Williamson?

  I've got a quote from a friend here that says, when punishment for what people say becomes widespread, people stop saying what they really think and instead say whatever is needed to thrive in the social environment. Thus, limits on speech become limits on sincerity. And, you know, it's the reason that censorship doesn't work fundamentally, that you don't actually change people's minds. You just drive those opinions underground. And yeah, it's got to the stage now where

• 1:01:03Chris Williamson?

  two things perhaps, one being that we must win at any cost, whichever side you are from, suggests that if you can create an asymmetric battlefield by censoring the other side whilst allowing yours, that gives you a particular advantage. And the other one being that there is sort of a generalized risk aversion. At the moment, anyway, the three out of 10 Gen Zers support the installation of cameras inside the home to surveil for wrongdoing. That just came out from the Cato Institute last week, which again, if you have got into a routine of giving up your privacy on the internet in return for access to Google or YouTube or whatever,

• 1:01:44Chris Williamson?

  then what, what really is the difference between doing that in the online world and doing that in real life? It's not all that different, right? The, the lines begin to get blurred for the person that's been natively online since the age of whenever they can remember being alive. So. I wonder whether protecting people from bad opinions, protecting people from dangerous ideas, which I'm sure both sides, you know, use during this discussion, I wonder whether that contributes a little bit to, you know, the ideas should be defeated. It's a strange one. I didn't realize that you didn't know that that video was going to come out until after you guys had spoken and all the rest of it. That must have been, you know, difficult.

• 1:02:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I, like I said, I really like Natalie. And I think, you know, I had watched, you know, some of her videos and I mean, I learned, I mean, her cancel culture video, like she even described like this witch hunt impulse. And I think there's a lot of things that she, that she says, but you know, I also recognize, you know, she, she disavowed the series even before the video, like basically, you know, from the very, before a single episode actually had, had come out.

• 1:02:53Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, before the video, but also before you had released anything.

• 1:02:56Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:02:57Chris Williamson?

  Presumably at that time, all that was known about what you were going to publish was what you had spoken about during your conversation. But did you, during the conversation, did you think like it had gone badly?

• 1:03:08Speaker 00

  No, I mean, no, I mean, like, it was, it was quite long. I mean, this was like, I think it was like, uh, right shortly before I, I gave birth. I think it was, there was a little.

• 1:03:19Chris Williamson?

  In a fever dream.

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  Right, yeah. But no, I mean, like, like I said, I really like her. I thought it was a really good conversation. It was really interesting. And, and, and I was really, I was really grateful. And I mean, I remain grateful because I think her, the inclusion of her voice in the series is such a, it is exactly the kind of thing that I think is is missing so much. Like, it's a very thoughtful, considered critique, not, again, this kind of hyperbolic, very loud or threatening. And she wasn't, you know, attempting to, to shut down the conversation, which I think is what.

• 1:03:55Chris Williamson?

  Given that she's disavowed it after it happened, does that change your opinion at all?

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  Um, I, it's really funny because like I, I, I'm, I've really tried hard to understand where she's coming from. And I think, but I, I do think part of, part of it is the dynamic that you just described. And actually she described in the series, you know, this, this sense of a lot of trans people, you know, rely on other trans people for support. And I think, I think she saw that people in her community saw our show, you know, even before, again, even before a single episode had aired. As like they, they knew what the show was going to say. They were sure that it wasn't going to be, you know, what they, what they wanted. And so it became a target immediately. And so I think, you know, maybe in part she was responding to, to that.

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  I think in part she was probably responding to a, an understandable misreading of the title. But again, I, I, I really feel like, I actually don't think we are that far off, actually. Well, you know, even, you know, watching that video, I, I, yeah, I, I still really like her. I still, you know, really disagree with some of the points that she made there. But, you know, I, I think, again, we live in a pluralistic society. I'm very glad that she has the ability to describe her disagreement and then that I can respond.

• 1:05:11Chris Williamson?

  It seems to me, from the conversations I've heard with you previously and today and the show as well, that you're doing an awful lot of work, almost twisting yourself inside out in a desperate attempt to be as unbiased as you can, to be able to pick both sides, to be able to do all of these things. Despite the fact that nobody, everyone can agree on, it's not that easy to step through this minefield without triggering one of the tripwires on either side, right? So the amount of effort that you've had to go through, I don't know. The same with Hannah Barnes. Hannah Barnes was like, almost offensively delicate.

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:48Chris Williamson?

  With the way that she spoke when she came on the show. It was outrageous how softly she was treading. We, the evidence would suggest it seems so and so on. So I don't know. I mean, you know, I've spent enough time watching stuff on the internet to know when somebody has an ulterior motive. And it doesn't seem to me like you or, or her do. And especially given the background that you're coming from, which is open and honest communication on the internet saved you and brought you into a life which you now very much appreciate and value.

• 1:06:23Speaker 00

  And imagine the kind of knots they tie. I mean, like, Westboro, by almost any view of what we were doing at the church, you know, people saw us as inhumanly cruel and just, just absolutely monsters, essentially. And the people who took the time, in spite of all of that, sometimes I go back and look at old videos of myself and you should see the way I used to communicate. I mean, this is kind of just the condescension and the arrogance and just the, again, horribly cruel things that I would say. The fact that people were able to look past that and recognize that I was a human being who

• 1:07:02Speaker 00

  was the product of my upbringing and their willingness to, you know, as you said, tie themselves in knots to try to, to try to show me that kind of grace. I mean, like, I absolutely feel an obligation to, to do that as much as possible. I mean, like, the show could have been a lot of different things, but really, I think what it is an attempt to do is to really understand where people are coming from in as good faith as possible. Because again, unless people really feel heard and understood, I don't think the willingness to listen is obviously a lot less. But then also, like, there's just, you have to be

• 1:07:43Speaker 00

  able to wrestle with the very best arguments on the other side. And if you're going to find a way forward, and that's really what I, I hope ultimately, this is one step down that path.

• 1:07:55Chris Williamson?

  How much backlash have you faced since it's come out?

• 1:07:58Speaker 00

  Um, some, but honestly, much less than I anticipated. Like, when we started this two years ago, I, I was pretty terrified that how that was going to go. But I mean, honestly, Natalie's criticism is, is the one that, that like, I think hurts the most. Because, like I said, I, we really, really tried to do.

• 1:08:21Speaker 00

  Justice to her position. And I, I think we succeeded again, based on, based on the, um, the kind of responses we got from a lot of people. Um, so it, it hasn't been that bad, actually. Um, and it's actually been pretty incredible to hear from a lot of people, including a lot of trans people who, who, um, who see the series as, as a real attempt at being even handed, a real attempt at helping people understand each other. Um, and I mean, honestly, like it's, one of the earliest responses I got was from, um, an employee at a, at a diversity center who was like, oh my God, like we, we need this conversation so badly. Like kind of essentially, again, seeing, I don't think, we weren't trying to litigate the issues in this series. I don't

• 1:09:05Speaker 00

  think I'm the person to do that. I don't think I'm, I don't think I'm qualified to do that. Um, but again, even, even that, like the willingness of people to listen, to really hear the other side and to wrestle with the, the best versions of their arguments instead of these straw men that seem to come up so much on social media. Um, I don't know. I, I feel a lot of hope, a lot of hope.

• 1:09:27Chris Williamson?

  What do you think about What is a Woman?, Matt Walsh's documentary? Because they released that on Twitter a couple of weeks ago, and I saw online that that is now potentially the most watched documentary in human history because of how much it got signal boosted in the space of four days, which is insane. Uh, but have you, did you speak to anybody about that? Have you, you know, you're somebody that is absolutely knee deep in this conversation, doing something that's not like ridiculously dissimilar, finding out what's going on broadly, asking questions, although maybe with less of an agenda than, uh, Matt Walsh had. What, what did you learn from people about that? Or what, what have your reflections been on how that contributes to the conversation?

• 1:10:13Speaker 00

  Um, it's been a while since I saw it. I mean, there were definitely some moments, I think some clips that that um were on, this was like a year ago. I honestly haven't been, I was um. Um, but yeah, I mean, I I remember um, I remember seeing those clips about a year ago. I think actually when I was flying home from that first set of interviews with J K Rowling. Um, and you know, it, I think, so it's really interesting for, you know, he's asking them to articulate their worldview and in some ways, some of it seems like it can be pretty incomprehensible. For, especially for the uninitiated, I think. And you know, you can win cheap points that way, but I think.

• 1:10:54Speaker 00

  Again, for me, we know, we could have done something like that. We could have, but the point isn't to make it harder to understand. It's again, to present the very best versions of their of their arguments and what they're trying to achieve and and how they understand the world and make that comprehensible to the other side. If you're only talking to people who already agree with you, there will be no progress. And so I, I mean, I just. I I understand where he was coming from. I do think he was mostly talking to his own side. Um, and you know, again, I I understand, I think, why he would do something like that, but I.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  It's not the kind of thing that I want to engage in because I I really do aim for mutual comprehension instead of mutual antagonism.

• 1:11:41Chris Williamson?

  What do you think the future of this discussion has in store? You might not have a crystal ball and divinity is apparently some form of a cult witchcraft in any case. Um, but yeah, what what do you think's going to happen? Does the volume get turned up, get get turned down?

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  I think it's, I I like I said, I I do feel a lot of hope. I think, I mean, even over the past few months, there's been quite a bit of change. There's, I think, more, I mean, I don't think it's going to be like a straightforward trajectory where everything suddenly gets better and people are able to understand each other and. And are, you know, suddenly, you know, willing and able to talk to each other. But I I I do see. Already a change in the public conversation and the ability to say more honestly, what you actually think. I think fewer people are opting out. I still think it's probably too many are self censoring, but I I do hear more people willing to ask the questions in good faith and to really try to engage. And again, for me, that represents hope because that's I do believe that that is the way forward.

• 1:12:44Chris Williamson?

  Have you spoken to JK since the series came out?

• 1:12:46Speaker 00

  Um, I actually have not, but I'm I will be interested to hear what she thinks. I I do know that she hates the sound of her own voice, so I don't know.

• 1:12:55Chris Williamson?

  She might have skipped all of the episodes, the bit that have got her in.

• 1:12:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Chris Williamson?

  Megan Phelps-Roper, ladies and gentlemen, I really appreciate the work that you've done. It's been an incredibly effortful task to do and probably one that largely carried an awful lot of personal risk. So I very much appreciate the fact that you decided to step into this. If people want to keep up to date and check out more stuff, where should they go? And when's the epilogue out?

• 1:13:17Speaker 00

  Um, I think the epilogue should be out in a couple of weeks. Um, it's taken a little longer than than I expected because I did finally take maternity leave after my my baby was born, which is nice. Um, but yeah, I don't know. Keep up with me. Um, I'm on Twitter. I I I've actually been, yeah, oh my gosh, what do I even say? What do I say, Chris? Um, I'm on Twitter at Megan Phelps and on Instagram at Megan Marine.