The Science Behind Why We Buy & How to Make Bold Choices - SYSK Choice

In a public bathroom, which is better – drying your hands with a paper towel or using an air blower? If the goal is to walk out of the bathroom with clean hands, there is really only one choice. Listen and I will reveal what it is. http://lifehacker.com/5967976/ Whenever you buy something, you are making a decision – to buy it or not. Whether it’s which laundry soap to ourchase or which house to buy – it is always the result of your decision. What’s so interesting is what goes into that decision. Sometimes you aren’t even aware of what is influencing your choice. Here to explain how this all works is Phil Barden, who is a marketing expert and author of the book Decoded: The Science Behind Why We Buy (https://amzn.to/3v7If6P). What he says can help make you a better consumer. Are you bold? Do you say what’s on your mind and do ask for what you want? Or does something hold you back? There is a well know phrase - “Fortune favors the bold,” and it is a phrase Jennifer Cohen certainly believes in. Jennifer has a brilliant TED talk on this topic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM82hE6oimw&t=2s) and she is host of a podcast called Habits and Hustle (https://habitshustle.com/). She is also author of the book Bigger, Better, Bolder: Live the Life You Want, Not the Life You Get (https://amzn.to/3jlI6tO). If you have ever felt regret for not speaking up, you should hear this conversation. People don’t like to complain in restaurants – even when things aren’t going well. There is always that worry that it could make things worse. Yet actually, by not complaining, it is hard for things to get better and more importantly, not complaining can cost you money. Listen as I explain.. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201112/telling-white-lies-comes-price PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! INDEED: Get a $75 SPONSORED JOB CREDIT to get your jobs more visibility at https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING Support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms & conditions apply. AURA: Save on the perfect gift by visiting https://AuraFrames.com to get $35-off Aura’s best-selling Carver Mat frames by using promo code SOMETHING at checkout! SHOPIFY: Sign up for a $1 per-month trial period at https://Shopify.com/sysk . Go to SHOPIFY.com/sysk to grow your business – no matter what stage you’re in! MINT MOBILE: Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at https://MintMobile.com/something! $45 upfront payment required (equivalent to $15/mo.). New customers on first 3 month plan only. Additional taxes, fees, & restrictions apply. HERS: Hers is changing women's healthcare by providing access to GLP-1 weekly injections with the same active ingredient as Ozempic and Wegovy, as well as oral medication kits. Start your free online visit today at https://forhers.com/sysk PROGRESSIVE: The Name Your Price tool from Progressive can help you save on car insurance! You just tell Progressive what you want to pay and get options within your budget. Try it today at https://Progressive.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Carruthers?

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• 1:28Mike Carruthers?

  Today on Something You Should Know, in a public bathroom, is it better to dry your hands with a paper towel or an air dryer? Then, why you buy what you buy? There's a lot going on that determines what you purchase.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Our choices will change depending on, not only where we are, but who we're with, the time of day, are we indoors, are we outdoors? What's the temperature? And as they change, so our choices change.

• 1:57Mike Carruthers?

  Also, are you reluctant to complain in a restaurant even when things aren't going so well? And the power of being bold and asking for what you want more often?

• 2:08Speaker 02

  You don't just act one time and think, "Okay, now I'm bold." I wasn't born this way, but I did notice when I actually got certain wins. It wasn't because I was the smartest or the prettiest. It was because I actually just asked the question.

• 2:22Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know.

• 2:27Mike Carruthers?

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• 3:10Mike Carruthers?

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• 3:52Mike Carruthers?

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• 4:23Mike Carruthers?

  Hi there, welcome to Something You Should Know. When you're out and about and you have to use a public restroom, usually the restrooms have either air dryers to dry your hands or paper towels. And sometimes you have a choice, they'll have both paper towels or air dryers. So which is the better choice? The answer is paper towels. According to a study by the Mayo Clinic, paper towels are better at fighting bacteria than air dryers are. That's because we use friction with paper towels and that friction helps to dislodge the microorganisms while your hands are drying. Hand washing experts say that friction is the most important element of the process.

• 5:08Mike Carruthers?

  Antibacterial soap isn't in contact with your skin long enough to really do the job. So they say that drying with paper is an important precaution to take, especially where hygiene is particularly important, such as restaurants, hospitals, and schools. And that is something you should know.

• 5:31Mike Carruthers?

  You and I buy things all the time. We make choices about what to buy and what not to buy. And we like to think those choices are based on logical, firm, sound thinking. But there are a lot of other factors at play here when you buy something. Why do you buy it? Why do you buy, say, one make of car over another? Or one brand of soup over another? What goes on in your brain when you make a decision to buy? It's something that Phil Barden studies. Phil is a marketing expert and author of the book Decoded: The Science Behind Why We Buy. Hi Phil.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Hi Mike, it's great to be here.

• 6:13Mike Carruthers?

  So let's start with brands because to some degree, why we buy some things is because we're brand loyal. We like that brand. But I've heard that and read that in recent years, brand loyalty is waning. People, with a few exceptions, people aren't so brand loyal as they used to be. Is that, is that a fair statement?

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Yes, I think so. Nowadays, there are far many more substitutes available. You do get some real diehard loyalists who will only drink one brand of cola, for example. But generally, people shop from a repertoire and they're quite happy, depending on the price, depending on the convenience, where they are, the context in which they find themselves, they're quite happy to swap out one brand for another, as long as it, it meets this job to be done, as long as they functionally perform and they also tick a box in terms of the social, emotional and psychological level, then we're quite happy to buy from a repertoire.

• 7:14Mike Carruthers?

  Are there some basic rules that sellers, retailers, whoever is trying to sell us something, are there things that they're doing that are trying to maneuver us in a particular direction? And maybe an example or two, if it's true, an example would help.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  For sure. There are some tactics that everyone should watch out for. And I'll give you a couple of classic examples. When you're online and you're looking at a product and a little window pops up and says, only two left in stock. Or if you're looking at booking a flight or a hotel room and you see something that says, five other people are looking at this room or this flight right now.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  It triggers a sense of urgency in us that goes right back through evolution because our ancestors lived from famine to feast and they didn't know when the next supplies or particular resource would be available. So then the nudge was to get what you could when it was available. And when we see something that says that there's there's time pressure or that quantities are limited, we do feel this urge to click online or to buy in a store. And that's something we should watch out for because often it can tip us into a purchase that we might not otherwise have made if we weren't under that time pressure or if we didn't feel that quantities were limited.

• 8:48Mike Carruthers?

  I'm sure you don't know for sure the answer, but I bet you have an opinion. When it says hurry, only two left, are there really only two left?

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Well, that depends. Sometimes there are, but there have been cases that have been called out by the industry and advertising standards bodies where this is deliberately misleading. And in fact, if you if you're online and you cleared your browser, cleared your cache and your and your history and you go back into the same website, you you might find that in fact, there are seven left the next time you visit. So you really need to you really need to be careful with this this sort of thing.

• 9:31Mike Carruthers?

  I hear things like there have been studies where they they're trying to sell wine and if they play French music, French wines sell more and if they play Italian music, Italian wines sell more. That makes it sound like we're so swayable, we're so impressionable that we'll just kind of go with the, you know, it it doesn't sound like we're really being very critical in how we think about things.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  What you're talking about is an effect known as priming and it's been around for decades. You think when you go into a supermarket and you smell freshly baked bread, that's a that's another example of of priming. It it triggers your appetite. Now, the fact is that you will not buy bread if you don't want it, right? Even though there's this lovely smell of warm baked goods coming at you. Similarly, if you hear French music or Italian music or whatever. And you don't need to buy wine that day, then you're not going to. So it's not like the supermarkets are tricking you.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  It's not like they're making you do something that you don't want to do. When the studies you're talking about with the music played in the aisles where wine is sold did influence purchases, but it was of people who were already going to buy wine. So yes, we can be, we can be swayed by this, but not tricked into doing something that we wouldn't otherwise have done.

• 11:07Mike Carruthers?

  Well, that's good news because it almost seemed like the way that you hear these tactics tried that we're so, well, and the grocery store is a good example of, of how we hear so much about the psychology of the grocery store, you know, that you're, the longer you stay and the more they can make you go to the back of the store, the more you'll buy, like you're just like a, an idiot.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  You know, this idea that we're sort of walking around like, like zombies, um, ready to be brainwashed is, is couldn't be further from the truth.

• 11:39Mike Carruthers?

  Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Haven't you ever bought something where you didn't really need it? You didn't want to take it back. You could have lived without it, but you bought it anyway because it looked kind of cool. And so here it is in your house and it really wasn't necessary.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  I can't honestly say that I have, no.

• 12:00Mike Carruthers?

  Really?

• 12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, really. No, I have, I've been triggered into buying stuff, but simply because I've bumped into it in the store. And that happens with a lot of purchases, you know, when, whenever we make a purchase decision, it's either a memory based decision, you know, I might write a physical shopping list or just have a mental shopping list of things that I know that I need. And that constitutes my reason for going shopping. But when I'm in the store, then I will be stimulated by other things in the store. And that's, you know, that's the same, whether it's a department store or grocery store or wherever. And simply the fact that I have seen things can trigger a purchase decision.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  But I go back to what I said before, it's not something, I'm not being made to buy something against my will.

• 12:52Mike Carruthers?

  So what are some of the other things that maybe we're not aware of that affect our decision making and by that I mean things like, I don't know, music or lighting or any of those kind of things that push us one way or the other or help us, nudge us to make a decision?

• 13:12Speaker 01

  There are some quite strange effects that have been studied in psychology. A great example was in 1997 when NASA started the Pathfinder series of space exploration to the planet Mars. I can remember it well, seeing it on TV. But whilst that was going on, the Mars confectionery company in the US reported an abnormal jump in sales. And they said, "It's really weird because we're not doing any extra promotion, we're not doing any extra advertising."

• 13:55Speaker 01

  And yet, sales of Mars are rising. And the psychologists came in and explained this. They said, "This is an effect known as fluency." And fluency in the brain is a cognitive process that basically says, "Once we have been exposed to one particular stimulus, the next time we see that stimulus, it's processed more easily." And the fact that it's processed more easily makes it become more familiar to us, and as a result of familiarity, we like it better. So what was happening was that people in the US were being exposed to the word "Mars" on a daily basis.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  It was in all the news reports, on all the TV channels. It's Mars, Mars, Mars, Mars, "Thanks to the NASA program." And when they went shopping and saw a Mars bar, that this fluency triggered a purchase.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Simply because it was easier for them to to process in the brain. And the same thing explains why sales of orange coloured items rise at Halloween. Uh, which just sounds crazy, doesn't it? And it's because orange is such a salient colour at Halloween, because of pumpkins, of course, that sales of of quite unrelated orange items like um soda drinks, orange flavoured soda drinks, go up at the same time because the colour orange is is present. So there there are some weird things. And and a- as I said, this is not, this is not forcing people or making people do things

• 15:37Speaker 01

  um against their will. You know, people will buy a Mars chocolate bar quite happily. It just so happened that the process was made easier because the word Mars was so salient in the media.

• 15:49Mike Carruthers?

  That is really weird.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  It is a strange one. Another another interesting example for you is known as the framing effect, which basically says that the the way information is presented affects our perception of things. So uh if you give people some ground beef and you label it as ninety percent fat free, and then you show people the identical ground beef, but label it as ten percent fat. So objectively and rationally, they're identical, right? Ten percent fat is exactly the same as ninety percent fat free.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  But people will tell you that the ninety percent fat free meat is better quality. Uh, it's healthier and they're willing to pay more for it as well.

• 16:44Mike Carruthers?

  We talked earlier about music in relation to selling wine. How how does music affect our brain in terms of what we buy or don't buy, or stay in the store, get out of the store, that that kind of thing?

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Well, music can act strongly in the brain in terms of triggering memories. So very often in our formative years, particularly teenage years, music can transport us back to a time and a place. So it can be very, very evocative. That's one effect that music can have. The other effect is that the rhythm and the tempo of the music can change our mood. So classical music will make us feel a certain way, you know, feel more calm, well, depending on the, on the actual music, of course. But, you know, classical lullaby will, will, is soothing. It's calming. It's what we, what helped calm us and send us

• 17:43Speaker 01

  to sleep as a, as a child. Whereas classical music that is a, a march with its particular tempo and, and rhythm will tend to make us feel a bit more excited and energized. And that, that's the case. It's not, we're not just talking about shopping here. That's the case in any time we're exposed to music. You could think about the music in a movie soundtrack that, that is enormously important in evoking moods and helping us to feel as well as see what's going on, on the screen.

• 18:18Mike Carruthers?

  We're exploring what makes you buy the things you buy. And we're doing that with Phil Barton. He is a marketing expert and author of the book Decoded: The Science Behind Why We Buy. Well, here's something you should know about your bones. We all hear about calcium and vitamin D, and they're important. But there's another ingredient in healthy bones that hardly anybody talks about: collagen. Think of your bones like a building, right? Collagen provides the framework while minerals like calcium help give it strength. Here's the problem, though. As we get older, our bodies naturally produce less collagen. That's

• 18:57Mike Carruthers?

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• 19:40Mike Carruthers?

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• 20:24Mike Carruthers?

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• 21:07Mike Carruthers?

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• 21:50Mike Carruthers?

  So Phil, when someone decides to buy whatever it is, you know, a can of beans, or a television set, or a bottle of wine, when it gets right down to it, there's usually multiple choices. There's different, several different brands of beans or television sets, and they're all pretty much the same price. How does the brain figure out, okay, that one?

• 22:17Speaker 01

  That's a really good question. And this has been studied by particularly neuroscientists, who have observed what activity goes on in the brain when people make a purchase decision. And it is the same process irrespective of what we're buying, whether it's a TV set, or a candy bar, or an automobile, or whatever it might be. The same process unfolds in the brain. And what happens first is that we perceive a so-called reward. There's a part of the brain which the scientists nicknamed the reward center, which helps us to make decisions. And it does that based on the associations

• 23:01Speaker 01

  that we have built with different offerings in the past. And those associations will be built through many different things. So the advertising that we have seen, our own personal experience with a brand, what other people say or tell us about the brand, what spokespeople or influencers there might be for the brand, how the brand looks and feels, the packaging it has, the, any other sensory qualities that it might have, the reputation that we've learned that the brand has. All of these form neural networks of associations that when we, when we come to be in a position where we want to make a purchase,

• 23:46Speaker 01

  let's take your, your example of the TV set. And if all the brands on on offer are roughly about the same price, then we will tend to choose the brand whose rewards we have learned fit our job to be done best. I always remember a lovely conversation with a finance director of a car, an automobile company. And he said, look, my last purchase decision was entirely rational. I had a fixed budget and I worked out what model I could have and what engine size and what trim and specification I could have. And it fitted my budget and that's an entirely logical, rational decision.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  And I said to him, yes, you're absolutely right. But why did you go through all of that process to arrive at the decision? And he said, oh, so I could have a BMW outside my house. So what he just displayed there was this mixture of the functional rational stuff, but also the social, emotional, psychological side that actually having a BMW outside his house said something about him as a person and made him feel a certain way. And he chose BMW to do that rather than another automobile brand because of what he'd learned about BMW, what it stood for, what the associations were. And that's what was factored into his decision.

• 25:16Mike Carruthers?

  There's something that I've noticed and I've heard people talk about on menus, restaurant menus, and it's the second most expensive bottle of wine, where people don't want to buy the most expensive, but they don't want to look too cheap. So they buy the second most expensive. Restaurants know that and they mark that second bottle up quite a bit because they know people will go for the second most expensive bottle of wine. And I I think I've fallen for that myself, but I'm not sure why.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Well, this is something known as anchoring and it.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  What it tells us is, and it's based on the fact that our perception is always relative, it's never absolute. So we don't really know the value of, unless you're a real wine aficionado and an absolute expert, then how do you judge the value of a bottle of wine? And anchoring is the principle by which the first bit of information we see, so the most expensive bottle, acts as an anchor for what follows. And generally, we tend to pick a middle option.

• 26:34Mike Carruthers?

  And lastly, something I find interesting about purchases that we make is how we sometimes buy something and look back and say, what was I thinking? Why in the world did I buy that?

• 26:47Speaker 01

  When I started in the field that I'm working in now, one of my colleagues, who is a psychologist, said humour behaviour is always the product of the person and the situation they're in. So that situation is contextual. And it's exactly why, for example, when you're on vacation and you drink a rosé wine somewhere very warm, when you're relaxed, et cetera, and you come back home and you see that same wine on sale and you think, oh, I remember, that was fantastic and I'll buy it. And you do, and you drink it at home and it never tastes the same.

• 27:26Mike Carruthers?

  It never tastes the same.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  No, exactly. And the reason is because the context has changed. Our choices will change depending on not only where we are, but who we're with, the time of day, what we're doing, you know, is it a business meeting? Are we on vacation? Are we meeting some friends? Is it a formal occasion? These are all contextual factors. Are we indoors? Are we outdoors? What's the temperature? All of these things. What's the day of the week? All of these are contextual factors. And as they change, so our choices change. Now, we don't change as individuals. We're the same individual in all of those situations.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  But if you change the situation, then our choices can change.

• 28:16Mike Carruthers?

  Well, given the number of purchasing decisions we all make, it's really important to understand like what goes on behind the scenes or in our brain to help us make those decisions. And when you understand that, I think it also helps you make better decisions. I've been talking with Phil Barden. He is a marketing expert and the name of his book is Decoded: The Science Behind Why We Buy. And you will find a link to that book in the show notes. Hey, thanks, Phil. Thanks for coming on.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Thanks, Mike. It's been a real pleasure.

• 28:49Mike Carruthers?

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• 29:32Mike Carruthers?

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• 30:16Mike Carruthers?

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• 31:47Mike Carruthers?

  I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "Fortune favors the bold," which implies that the more you get out there, be bold, ask for what you want, the more successful you will be in whatever it is you hope to do. And if that's true, what is it that stops so many of us from being bold, from speaking up, going after what we want? Why not be more bold? Well, someone who really understands and explains this concept so well is Jennifer Cohen. Jennifer has a brilliant TED Talk on this topic, and she is host of a podcast called Happits and Hustle. She's also the author of a book called Bigger, Better, Bolder: Live the Life You Want, Not the Life You Get.

• 32:31Mike Carruthers?

  Hi Jennifer, thanks for being here on Something You Should Know.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me. This is exciting.

• 32:37Mike Carruthers?

  So it's the new year, people are talking about new goals they want to achieve, things they want to get. Yet so many of us, when it comes time to speak up and ask for what we want, we're timid, we're not bold, we worry about getting rejected, what if we fail? I don't want to make waves. And so we don't go after what we say we want.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Absolutely, and therein lies the problem, right? Because we are scared of failure and we have so much self doubt. It's human nature, right? It's human nature to have these feelings. But it's about acting even when, even when you feel that way. Because the truth of the matter is, something in motion stays in motion. Something stagnant stays stagnant. That's why there's also that saying, when you're busy, when you want something done, give it to a busy person. Because inertia happens, momentum. So even if you have that self doubt, even if you fear that failure, still act. Because you can't just go from A to Z and just be like, well, I just be bold. It doesn't work that way.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  But if you get good at asking for the little things in life, you can get better at asking for the big things in life. So you start with these small, little, bold moves that accumulate and compound over time. And I also believe that you need to become immune to failure. And the only way to get desensitized and immune to failure and rejection is by doing something over and over again. And that's why I have the 10% target. And the 10% target is based around making 10 attempts at anything you want most in life. And even if you don't get to that goal, even if you don't get to that goal,

• 34:27Speaker 02

  another opportunity will present itself that you didn't even know existed by just going through the process.

• 34:35Mike Carruthers?

  So give me a concrete example of this idea in action.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  So let's say you love sports and you want to work for a sports team. Then start working with that realm and make 10 attempts. You know, look at the people that are in your life. See who in your life is working for a sports team. Or, you know, email someone. Go on LinkedIn and see who's the manager or the director of a certain, of a certain division. Right? But make these 10 attempts. So put the onus, the onus and ownership in your, of your life in your hands. And have like, have some control over your destiny. And so this is what the message of them trying to really kind of get out to people is that you have to take agency and you can self-actualize and be whatever you really want to be. But you need to make that first step.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  And the first step is always the hardest. But if you stay on path and put yourself in that situation to win, you'll be so surprised of what happens. Because the reality is, most people don't even make one attempt. Almost nobody makes two attempts. So if you're somebody who makes 10 attempts, just on pure volume or on just on pure just numbers, you're gonna make, you're gonna have a shot. And you have to have that idea in your head that, why not me? Why not me? If it can happen to that person, why can't it happen to me?

• 36:02Mike Carruthers?

  I think a lot of people think that being bold or not being bold is, is a character trait. That there are those people who are bold. And if you don't feel that's you, that a lot of this seems like, this doesn't apply to me because I'm not that person.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  And that's true. That's, a lot of people do feel that way. They feel that you need to be born bold. And if you're not born bold, then, you know, I'm out of luck. And the reality is that we have, we can actually become more bold. Because boldness is a skill, like anything else.

• 36:38Mike Carruthers?

  I wonder why we're not bold. Or maybe we start off bold, but we get shot down enough, we think, well, that didn't feel very good. So maybe I'm not going to be so bold the next time.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  That's true. That happens all the time. And that's why a lot of times naivety is a strength, right? Because the less we know, the more bold that we can be. Because remember, when you were a kid, you didn't know any better. So you just did, you acted, you moved, you did things. And then, you know, you kind of learn from things that happened to you, correct? And then, what happens as we get older, we get much more timid in attempting or making that bold move because we have too much experience, we're too seasoned. So if we can go back to that idea and that ideology of naivety, when you actually did a lot of things, when you didn't know better, that's when things actually happen, right?

• 37:33Mike Carruthers?

  Sometimes, though, I think, I guess I can speak for myself, that when you decide not to do something bold, it's because something's telling you not to. And maybe that voice that's telling you not to is right. Maybe this isn't a good idea. And how do you determine whether it's worth taking the risk, or whether maybe it really isn't a good idea?

• 37:59Speaker 02

  That's a good question. And the truth is, you said the word right there in the question, which was risk. There's a difference between being bold and taking a risk. Bold and risk are different. When I think about boldness, I think about it being a calculated risk, like knowing, doing something that's safe, that you know that you're, that I'm not telling, my message in being bold is not, if you have a family of four, don't quit your job and just go for the gusto like that. I'm saying be calculated in what your attempt is. And that, to me, is the main distinction between just being risky for the sake of risky, and being bold for the life that you want. Because

• 38:44Speaker 02

  it's a lot of times, it doesn't even have to be these big, vast things that you're being bold for. It could be small things also, right? It could be things like, you know, maybe calling your credit card company or your cell Service provider and seeing if there's a better deal on the table than what you're doing. It's about going to a restaurant and maybe sometimes asking for the sauce on the side. You know, it's about asking for what you want in lots of different scenarios and a lot of different areas. It's not about just taking these big, bold risks that are dangerous.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  It's about just tailoring your life in a way that you're taking the onus and ownership on what you are given. Versus just having and taking what's good enough.

• 39:34Mike Carruthers?

  When I think of bold, I think not only of asking for what you want, but it's also in how you ask. I don't think of somebody being bold in a very meek sort of way. Those two terms don't seem to go together very well.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  That's very true. You're right. And so there's a lot of, there's a, there's a connotation a lot of times with boldness. That it can be aggressive or too assertive. But in life, it's not so much what you say, it's how you say it. You can be bold, but also be kind and nice and respectful. Right? And so there, there's that element that it's extremely important. You could ask for whatever it is you want in life, if you do it in a nice way. And the truth of the matter is, people don't balk at that. People balk when you're rude and, and dismissive and disrespectful. And so I think there's a lot of distinctions and, and, and ways that you could be bold

• 40:32Speaker 02

  in a very positive, kind, nice way. And so I talk about self-agency, right? Like if you believe you can, you can, and you will. If you believe you can't, you won't, and therefore you will not. So it's literally about number one, changing these negative ideologies in our heads and reframing the way we see things. It's about thinking, what is the worst that can happen? Like even just that one, that one sentence or that one reframe of, well, I'm not going to be any worse off today than I was yesterday if it doesn't go my way. So what's the worst that can happen?

• 41:17Speaker 02

  And if you have that type of affirmation, right? Then you, you act in such.

• 41:24Mike Carruthers?

  So how do you be bold if you don't feel bold? What if you do feel timid inside? How do you get this this boldness that you're talking about?

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Boldness is a muscle, right? Like, if you want to be strong, you go you don't go to the gym once and think you're going to be strong and fit, right? You have to go consistently over and over and over again. And then eventually you get to be stronger and stronger. And then you need to maintain that strength. It's the same thing with being bold. You don't just act one time and think, OK, now I'm bold. You have to be consistent with the skill and practice of it by doing these little things over and over again to strengthen your boldness muscle and to be and to become something. You've got to change the neuroplasticity of how you see yourself.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  And the only way to do that is to act and to do and to practice consistently. I'm somebody that I wasn't born this way. But I did notice when things were working out for myself and when I actually got certain wins, it was because I had the courage to ask for something and go after something and create these opportunities. And it wasn't it wasn't because I was the smartest or the prettiest or the most athletic. It was because I actually just asked the question. And I think we get in our own way the most, right? We are our own worst enemies.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  And we don't even allow ourselves to, like I said, self actualize to where we want to be and can be. And the truth of the matter is, what's worse? Rejection or regret?

• 43:15Speaker 02

  To me, regret is way worse than rejection. You get over rejection, right? Like, it may hurt and you may have to lick your wounds for a few hours or a day or two. But the what ifs are much, much worse. And those live with you over and over and over again in your mind.

• 43:33Mike Carruthers?

  Sometimes forever.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Forever, exactly. And it's happened to me, you know, even me being bold now. I mean, I've had a lot of things happen where I thought, yeah, now I practice, I'm bold. I wrote a book on bold. And, you know, I still sometimes have self doubt and don't do something that I think and know I should because I get scared of the same thing that I'm saying. But because of that not doing, that regret, I remember that feeling. And so when you remember that feeling of regret or what if, that's a great motivator to not do it another time.

• 44:15Mike Carruthers?

  You use the word courage and I always think of bold and courageous and confidence to be kind of part of all the same thing. Like, you can't have one without the others kind of thing. If you're gonna be bold, you've got to have courage to be bold and you've probably got to have a certain level of confidence to be bold. And a lot of people often feel they don't have those other two things.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  I agree with you. They're all basically sisters and brothers to each other, right? And, you know, confidence is the best way to gain confidence is through recognizing your other accomplishments that you've had and really, really kind of recognizing them and celebrating them, right? The best way... In my opinion, people ask me all the time about confidence, like, well, how do you even get the confidence to do this? Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, right? And there has to have been some small wins in your life at some point, no matter how small they were, but recognizing those and holding on to those.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  And the other thing is, you can count yourself, you have to count yourself, and even if you kind of take a breath and say, okay, three, two, one, let's go. You know, even if it's being brave for 20 seconds, we can all do something for 20 seconds. You can do all these little things to kind of give you that like burst of confidence, just to kind of get, get through the door, right? And over time, like I said, your, your, your neuroplasticity starts to change. And the reality is, being courageous, being confident, the, the way people get that is by acting, is by doing, and then seeing yourself doing those things, and noticing these little

• 46:04Speaker 02

  wins, and recognizing these little wins, and taking these little, like, doing these little like brain tricks, like saying, okay, I'm not confident, but you know what? I can do it for 20, I can do this for 20 seconds. I can make this call, or I can say this one thing, and it's gonna be 20 seconds. What's the worst that can happen in those 20 seconds? I don't get it? Okay. And there's ways to psych yourself up into that, until that actually becomes your new normal.

• 46:31Mike Carruthers?

  I remember years ago, it dawned on me that, because I would see people who like would get jobs, positions, opportunities, that they clearly didn't seem qualified for, but they always, they, they were like good at getting the job, but not necessarily very good at doing it. And I, and I, and I used to think like, how do they do that? And then it dawned on me. Because they asked, they, they, they applied, they, they went for it, and they were good at doing that. They weren't necessarily good at the job, but everybody who's had a boss that you wonder, like, how did he ever get his job? Probably because he was bold enough to go ask.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  One thousand percent, one thousand percent. We all have those people in our lives. We have all had those people in the life. On my podcast, right? Habits and Hustle, all I do all day is talk to the most extraordinarily successful people on the planet, the biggest disruptors in the world. And the one thing, the one through line with all of these people that I've interviewed is boldness. It's not that they were the smartest. They weren't the, they weren't the smartest. In fact, a lot of them flunked out of college and some of them out of high school. They weren't, they weren't exceptional in anything. But what they had was perseverance, persistence, tenacity and boldness.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  And that is why, this is not just me like riffing off, you know, or talking from a white ivory tower. This is honestly not just, this is experience, people I've seen. This is backed research. It is all of those things. And, you know, I got a job with the Toronto Raptors when I was, you know, the Toronto NBA team. When I was 20 years old, um, in like, I was like in a sales, a sales position where I had no prior sales experience. It was right after college. It was the most coveted job. Everyone wanted, everybody there was like, were sports fanatics, sports fans, big basketball fans.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  And I got the job because I was, I was so persistent. And I asked for it over and over again, that eventually they're like, you know what? This girl, let's give her a shot. I ended up being a really good salesperson, you know, shockingly enough. But the point is, it's like, that is what happens. And by the way, just to kind of close the loop on that story, my boss was a total nitwit. He didn't belong in that position, but he was so bold that he got the job. And he, by the way, he kept it because sometimes that is what it is. And it, and, and, you know, I, I feel that if people really, really like took that to heart,

• 49:20Speaker 02

  it would really, it would really propel them to at least give themselves a shot.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Right, the hardest part, the stop is, the stop is in the start a lot of times. So, you know, you just have to act.

• 49:35Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, well, I think your, your point about rejection lasts a short time, but the regret of, what if I had, it lasts, can last a lifetime and I, I've always felt that and felt that, you know, I don't want to get to the end of my life and wonder, what if, gee, I, what if I had done that? What if I'd done that? Although we all have some of those, we try to keep those to a minimum, I think, because, because you then, you, you spend a lot of time wondering and, and what, what good does that do you?

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Also wasted potential. At the end of your life, that's the worst feeling, right? That you had all this potential and you had all this possibility and you didn't do anything with it, or you didn't try to do anything with it, right? You had this potential in you to at least, like, everyone can ask a question, everyone can try, right? It doesn't take talent to do those things, but you can always try and put yourself in a position to win, but you have to create and make those opportunities. You've got to put yourself in a place that that can actually potentially happen. And, you know, another sister, we talked about confidence and we talked about courage,

• 50:48Speaker 02

  but we didn't talk about curiosity. And curiosity to me is the other brother and sister, right? Because if you are curious, that's where you can really find a lot, that's, that to me is a gateway to connection and, you know, communication and where you find a lot of things, a lot of information that you don't know. And if you can harness and ask questions in a very authentic way, be curious in an authentic way, there's a way that, that in itself opens up the gateway for so many opportunities to be bold in.

• 51:30Mike Carruthers?

  Well, one of the things you said that really rings true for me, because I, I've done things in my life that were pretty bold and didn't work out and maybe felt a little foolish for a while, but not for very long. But there are other things that I didn't do, didn't go after, wished I had, and I still think about them. And- And wish I didn't. So I really like the message of being bold. Jennifer Cohen has been my guest. She is the host of the podcast called Habits and Hustle. She has a great TED Talk on being bold, and she's author of a book called Bigger, Better, Bolder: Live the Life You Want, Not the Life You Get. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Jennifer. This was a lot of fun.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  Thanks, Mike. This has been so fun. Thanks for having me on your podcast.

• 52:21Mike Carruthers?

  Do you ever lie when the waiter or waitress comes over to your table and says, so how is everything? And you say it's fine even when it isn't fine? Well, a lot of people do that, and they end up paying for it, literally. People who lie typically go to great lengths to convince others of their honesty, whether they realize it or not. So if you report that your meal is great, when really it's not so great, you'll probably tip generously so that your tip matches what you said. After all, you said the meal was great. You don't want to look like a cheapskate, so you leave a nice tip. Researchers put this theory to the test and found that the majority of patrons would rather say, everything's

• 53:04Mike Carruthers?

  fine, and tip accordingly than to complain, citing that it's just, it's more trouble to speak up and complain rather than just say, everything's fine. On the flip side, those people who did voice their displeasure felt justified leaving a smaller tip if the problem was not resolved. And that is something you should know. Thank you for listening and showing your support for this podcast over the last several years, and here's to a great new year for you. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

• 53:38Speaker 03

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• 53:54Speaker 04

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