Hillary Biscay: 60 Ironmans & Counting

I'm so excited to share with you today's guest — my favorite female pro triathlete Hillary Biscay. Why is she my favorite? Oh, let me count the ways…. First we have similar backgrounds as collegiate swimmers (although I promised not to hold her USC affiliation against her). And not only is she on the PlantPower bandwagon (all the cool kids are doing it these days…), she is also the first guest I've had on the show who has also competed at Ultraman – it was great to hear her perspective on this race as a veteran pro. So much to talk about, fresh off her 60th Ironman – yes you heard me right, 60 Ironmans! — which was also one of her fastest. Finally, anyone who lists “running ultras” as her “hobby” away from triathlon is definitely on my wavelength. We get into all of it – what keeps her motivated; how her training has evolved from her days with legendary coach Brett Sutton to her current relationship with coach Siri Lindley; how she fuels her training and racing on plants (including missteps along the way); and of course her personal experience racing Ultraman, and what that was like as an ironman professional. Finally, we get to hear all about her new line of triathlon & active apparel – Smash. You know I love good design, and this stuff is excellent. I just wish she would hurry up and start making stuff for guys. Hillary is a delight, and she brings her vivaciousness to this interview in spades. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

  Eating well rarely falls apart because of one big failure. It's the daily question that wears you down. Like, what am I actually going to make tonight? What's in the fridge? And it's exactly why we built the Plant Power Meal Planner. It's a personalized, plant-based meal planning program that matches you with recipes based on your taste, your allergies, your cooking skills, and how much time you actually have. You build, through this program, a balanced, nutrient-dense plan for your entire household in a few minutes. Then it generates a grocery list for you with one click that plugs right into our delivery partners. All the recipes in the program are built by dietitians with culinary training. Plus, you get your own food coach to help you problem-solve along the way.

• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout. Welcome to episode 37 of the Rich Roll Podcast with professional Ironman triathlete Hillary Biscay.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:23Rich Roll?

  Check, check, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 3. Hello, this is Rich Roll. This is the Rich Roll Podcast. Welcome to the show. Welcome back. You've been listening. Thanks for all the support. Thanks for all your great comments on the iTunes page. We're back at you today with another great show. But before I get into a little bit about what I have in store for you today, who am I? I am an author, author of the book Finding Ultra, now available in paperback. I am an ultra-endurance triathlete. I like to do races that are really long. I am a plant-based nutrition advocate. I'm all about living the plant-based lifestyle and helping people incorporate more plants

• 2:08Rich Roll?

  into their diet. For sustainable, positive lifestyle change. I am a, what else am I? I guess I'm a lifestyle entrepreneur, whatever that means. I'm a family guy. I'm married. I've got four kids and I'm coming at you now as a podcast host. My goal with this show is to bring you the best and the brightest minds in health, wellness, fitness, nutrition, and athleticism. All people with one common goal in their message, which is how to live well, how to maximize the most out of this short life on this planet. So I've had nutritionists, I've had doctors,

• 2:51Rich Roll?

  I've had world-class athletes, all different types of athletes. And I've even have, I've even had entrepreneurs, usually paradigm-busting personalities, the best and brightest minds here to help inform you and me. I learn as much from these people as you do, and I've been lucky enough to sit in this chair and spend time with these people, a lot of which are individuals that I've met along this path over the last several years since I started this plant-based journey or this return to health and fitness and wellness. And it's my great pleasure and honor to introduce them to you.

• 3:32Rich Roll?

  But an important thing to remember is it's not about a guru. It's not about holding these people up on a pedestal or idolizing anybody. This is about you. It's all about self-empowerment. Everything that I'm trying to do here is about trying to help you achieve your best self, to have these people convey their vast knowledge so that you can take from that what works for you. You don't, you may not agree with everything. That's fine. Take what works for you, discard the rest, and, and use it, incorporate it into your life to optimize your own health, wellness, and fitness and nutrition. The idea is to empower you to unlock and unleash your best self.

• 4:17Rich Roll?

  So today on the show, I have a very exciting guest. Somebody with whom I have many points of intersection and overlapping interests. Her name is Hilary Biscay. She's one of the bright shining stars on the Ironman professional circuit and she is quite prolific in her career. She just finished her 60th Ironman down in Brazil. Can you believe that? 60 Ironmans and she continues to improve and get faster. In fact, her race down in Brazil, I think it was her second fastest Ironman ever. The only faster Ironman that I believe she's done was at Challenge Roat or Roth,

• 4:57Rich Roll?

  I'm not sure how you say it, which is a really fast course. So she's really awesome. She's really cool and she's also the first guest that I've had on the show who is also an Ultraman competitor. She did it back in 2010, which was a year that I skipped, that I didn't compete. Unfortunately, it would have been really fun to do the race with her and she sits down with me and we talk all about the Ultraman experience from the perspective of a professional Ironman triathlete, which is, which is pretty unique. She's one of the only pros who has competed at this race and she has a unique perspective on it, which I am excited to share with you. So anyway, we get into all different kinds

• 5:40Rich Roll?

  of things. We talk about another point of intersection, which is the fact that she came up with a college swimming background, similar or the same as myself, I guess, similar to myself and kind of how that's informed how she approaches her training and her racing, what she learned from her swimming experience and how that helps inform her performance. We talk about nutrition. She's also plant-based, which is really interesting. One of the few professional Ironman triathletes out there that is plant-based and she shares her perspective on that, what's worked for her, what she's learned, the mistakes that she's made and

• 6:20Rich Roll?

  how she's continuing to learn, evolve and dial it in. So she is a wealth of information and super cool, too. It's an honor to, it's an honor to know her and that she took time out of her busy training schedule to sit down here. She was visiting, she lives in Tucson, but she was visiting Los Angeles and her family's down in Palos Verdes, which If you know, Los Angeles is pretty far from where I live and she hiked all the way up in her car to do the show, which is pretty cool. So thanks for that, Hillary. Anyway, before we get into the interview, a couple of show notes, the first of which

• 6:59Rich Roll?

  is the T-shirt contest. The T-shirt contest continues. What is the T-shirt contest? Well, we just came out with these cool Plant Power T-shirts. If you look on my Instagram feed, you can see a couple of pictures of me wearing it. I'm at @Richroll on Instagram. And I posted in the show notes for today's show, an image of what the front of the T-shirt looks like. We only did a limited, small run, but I set aside, I was gonna do just one T-shirt, but I think I'm now gonna do two. I'm gonna give away two T-shirts to you guys out there, the listeners. And there's a couple of rules to follow to qualify, to

• 7:40Rich Roll?

  win. For the very specific rules, go to the show notes for this episode, @Richroll.com, and you can read all about it. But the essence of it is, basically, what I need you to do is post a picture on Instagram, and then share it on your social network, either Facebook or Twitter, of you listening to this podcast, or reading Finding Ultra. Tag my name, @Richroll, and tag #plantpower, so I see it. And I'm gonna pick from all the posts, the most creative or fun ones, and those guys are gonna be the winners. So, two of you out there, that's how you qualify to win. And for those of you who have already been doing it, the contest

• 8:25Rich Roll?

  has been up for a couple of weeks. It's been really fun checking out the posts. And I appreciate everybody who's posting on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, you know, all the social networks out there. Lots of great feedback. It keeps me revved up. It keeps me going and excited about doing the show and bringing the content to you. Anyway, the t-shirt design is super badass. I think it's really cool and I'm really excited about doing a bigger run of them very soon and making them available to everybody out there to purchase. So I'll keep you posted on that as it develops, but my hope is that in the next couple of weeks, it's now the end, it's the end of July, what is it, or the end of June, it's June 20, it's June 24th right now. So hopefully by mid-July,

• 9:08Rich Roll?

  I'll have those up on the website and available for you guys to buy them. And I'll of course keep you purchased on that. What else? On that note, Julie and I just finished a three-day video shoot on plant-based nutrition for beginners. We're doing it in partnership with MindBodyGreen and I can't get into the details of it, but suffice it to say that it's going to be a pretty awesome program. It was exhausting preparing for this, trying to structure it and then trying to shoot everything that we wanted to say, all the information we wanted to convey and the helpful tools in just three days of filming.

• 9:50Rich Roll?

  But I think we accomplished a tremendous amount and I feel really proud of this project. And of course, as it continues to develop and as we get closer to being able to launch it and offer it to you guys, I will of course surprise you of the details of that. You might have seen some pictures on my Facebook page or on Instagram or Twitter where I posted a couple of behind-the-scenes shots from the shoot. It was really fun. We had a great crew and of course, having the support of MindBodyGreen.com, which is essentially your one-stop, one-stop destination for wellness on the internet is a great partner for us

• 10:34Rich Roll?

  and provides us with an amazing platform for us to further share our, our message to the largest audience possible. So anyway, again, stay tuned.

• 10:51Rich Roll?

  So, without further ado, let's get into the interview. Hilary Biscay, my favorite, favorite female professional Ironman athlete by far. She's a delight, she's an inspiration, and she's a powerhouse. So, without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, check it out. Hilary Biscay.

• 11:24Rich Roll?

  Smash Fest queen. How's it going?

• 11:28Speaker 02

  It's going great, Rich. Thanks for having me.

• 11:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, thanks for driving all the way up from PV to be here. Man, I appreciate it.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  My pleasure. I love being up here. It's awesome.

• 11:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's my second podcast interview today. I'm trying to bank it. I did one this morning too, so I'm getting super into it. All the time that I was, that I used to spend training, I'm now sitting in front of a microphone. It's pretty funny. But, uh, so, um, we have so many, like, points of intersection to talk about, you know? We have, we both were college swimmers. We both did Ultraman. We have pretty similar diets. Where do we even begin? I don't even know where to start.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  I know. I feel like, I feel like I've known you forever, but really, we've only hung out like three times.

• 12:12Rich Roll?

  I know, just a couple times. So, well, I guess we could start with, uh, I mean, you just got back from Brazil, right?

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Yep, just came back from my seventh time at Ironman Brazil.

• 12:23Rich Roll?

  Seventh time. Your 60th Ironman.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Yes, it was my 60th birthday.

• 12:29Rich Roll?

  That's, that's so crazy. I can't even, like, wrap my brain around that. And you're, and you did your fastest I am Brazil there, right?

• 12:38Speaker 02

  I did, yeah. Yeah, it was my second fastest Ironman ever and my fastest time on that course. I mean, times at Ironman are not really that relevant, but I do think they become relevant when you do the same course over and over and over.

• 12:53Rich Roll?

  Right, and your 60th Ironman, you're still getting faster, you're getting better. I mean, you know, how do you, you know, what is it that you think that allows you to continue to improve?

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Well, I don't think it was like, it hasn't been like a completely sort of linear progression. I mean, there have been a lot of bumps in the road and I just happen to now, I think, be back on a, like, not winning, because I didn't actually win, but like a good streak, I guess. We have that, we have that back. But it's, I mean, really, when I, when I look at the big picture, it's probably been like a bit of a, like, tougher, like, three or so years to this point. So I think, I think that now my training is in a good spot. It's, my coach Siri and I are kind of on a roll and, like, I have my confidence back

• 13:49Speaker 02

  mentally and I think that's like, that's half the battle.

• 13:51Rich Roll?

  Right. So, peaks and valleys. I mean, it's, it's kind of easy to look at you and your career and go, well, she's just freak of nature. I mean, you know, who else could do this many Ironmans? She's obviously like wired for this. And you make it look so easy and you continue to post these amazing results. You know, obviously, you look at it and some are better than others, or you have your, your lulls or what have you. But, but yeah, I mean, it seems like you're emerging from, you know, last year was, you know, from, just based on my 10,000-foot view of your results or whatever, you know, you weren't exactly performing as, as best as I think you think you could. And now you're kind of, you're back on the scene. It's cool.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I know. Thank you. I do think, yeah, exactly. The past probably three years, I would say more of my results were sort of unsatisfying for, for me than, than otherwise. So, it's, it's nice to have a couple of, like, I guess, two Ironmans in a row now, in, in three weeks, that I felt were amongst my, my best performances. And yeah, it, it makes me feel like I'm kind of rolling again.

• 15:04Rich Roll?

  So, I'm not going to let you get out of this. You kind of slipped it in there, like, two Ironmans in three weeks. Like, for you, that comes off, that slips off your tongue like that's a normal, you know? Conventional wisdom is, is, is, oh, you can only do a couple Ironmans a year, any more than that, and you're going to burn out, or you're going to get injured. And, and that's never really been your approach. I mean, you're racing Ironmans all the time.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think three weeks to me is a pretty decent sized break. Like I've done them a week apart. I've done them two weeks apart. Three weeks is kind of a timeframe that to me is like unquestionably manageable for me personally.

• 15:44Rich Roll?

  Well, and not to mention the fact that when you did two in a row, back to back, right? The second one was Wisconsin that you won, right?

• 15:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So I've sort of figured out that the one week timeframe works very well for me. By contrast, I have tried the two week timeframe multiple times and that does not work. So I would take Ironmans a week apart over two weeks, like any day.

• 16:07Rich Roll?

  How do you think you, how did it evolve that you were going to be this, this person who races all the time? And I mean, that's sort of been your distinguishing feature as a pro is that you, you race Ironmans more frequently than most, if not anybody out there. I mean, how did that evolve? I mean, how did that come to be your thing?

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Well, it was, it was kind of out of, out of necessity in the beginning, to be honest, because I mean, as I think most pros have experienced, when you're starting out and trying to make it as a pro, sponsorships are typically fairly minimal and you have to race for a living. Well, for me, I just don't have the speed to go to a half Ironman and make a decent paycheck. So my option in running around and doing a bunch of races, trying to earn a living, was doing a bunch of Ironmans. I mean, that was how I was even going to have a chance at making it financially. So that's what I did. And the first, the first year I tried it, I didn't even, I didn't do that many.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  I think I did three or four and didn't go that great because I wasn't that fit. But once I started training with Brett Sutton, my first season with him, I was able to, to do it and do like six top fives in that season. And that for me, Was eight with a couple of small sponsorships was enough for me to actually stop just putting things on the credit card and was able to like break even that year or make a few bucks. So there I fit like I was forced to figure out that I could do it. And since so I since I knew that I could now I just now that's what I do.

• 17:43Rich Roll?

  Right, and it's kind of counter programming because it seems like most pros will pick a couple of Ironmans, but then they'll race a ton of half Ironmans and that's the way they're making a living because they can race, you know, sort of week in and week out a little more effectively that way and still, you know, make some prize money and do the appearances, but you're sort of going against that grain and saying, well, now I'm just going to do Ironmans all the time.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 18:09Rich Roll?

  I mean, does it is it easier now that there's more races because it thins it kind of thins the pro herd, right, at these races? Does it?

• 18:16Speaker 02

  You know what, I mean theoretically, I mean, you would think that it would, but no, because the field, I think especially amongst the women, is just getting deeper and deeper every year so that we need those extra races to spread things out because the competition is getting more and more stacked. And also, what our governing body, WTC, has done is that they've made they've weighted the races so that some races have a very small prize purse and some races have a bigger prize purse. So if you're going to a theoretically sort of less deep race, you're also not going to make a whole lot of money for for doing that race.

• 19:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  So, yeah.

• 19:02Rich Roll?

  I'm fascinated by kind of the economics of being a pro triathlete because it takes so much effort, time, discipline, you know, to prepare properly for an Ironman. And, you know, the prize money is not that great and it doesn't go that deep, you know, down from the podium. And, you know, the travel, you're always traveling to these exotic locations all over the world and, you know, with the exception of a handful of people at the very, very peak of the sport, like I look at it and I go, how is anybody, you know, making this work? Like, how does it how does it work for you?

• 19:39Speaker 02

  That is a fantastic question. It has definitely gotten, I mean, as the field has gotten deeper, I think.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  It has gotten more and more difficult to make a living off of prize money. And I think also the sort of other I've seen over my few years as a pro now, the other incentives like appearance money and even big money sponsorships, I think are sort of disappearing or getting more and more sort of diluted throughout the sport. So now, um, yeah, I would say you're right. There are a very few people who can just race and that's it like for a living.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  For me now, I, I've got three jobs and I've got the racing job and, and you know, having things that I do for my sponsors and that. And I have a coaching business and I've just started my own clothing business and we're building that brand. And I know for sure that for me, the magic would definitely no longer be happening if I weren't working those other jobs.

• 20:54Rich Roll?

  Right. You got, how many, how many people are you coaching right now?

• 20:57Speaker 02

  I have about 15 right now. And then I have another coach who works under me and she has a few athletes of her own.

• 21:03Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's, that's cool. So yeah, delegating too.

• 21:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I mean, there is, I would coach 50 athletes if I had the time because I just love it so much. Although I don't think that I could coach 50 athletes if that was all I was doing. I think it's just too labor intensive and hard to do a good job with that many. But, um, yeah, 15 is right about my, my max. And, um, and a few years ago, I never could have handled that. But I think that you, you learn how to, how to be more efficient and do a better job.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  As years go on. So, so yeah, I mean, I think that it is, I mean, back to the original question. I think that. That even those, even those, those folks who sort of do just quote unquote, just race and train for a living, they are still out there, you know, doing a ton of work on their personal brand and doing all the various things that they need to do to add value for their sponsors.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  And it's definitely, definitely not just about, you know, showing up at the race.

• 22:08Rich Roll?

  Right. And being on the podium. I mean, you have to be, you have to distinguish yourself and your identity and, and it sounds so lame to say your brand, but you know, really that's what it is.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  That's what it is.

• 22:17Rich Roll?

  You know, how, you know, why do people care if you get placed, you know, second, third, fourth, whatever at a race? Like unless you have a fall, I would, you know, I would think like stuff like Twitter and all that kind of stuff comes into play. Like you've got to, that becomes part of your job.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Yep. Yeah, absolutely. It is. And I think that's something that probably most of my call, like most of my colleagues and most other pros now understand is that that's sort of the second piece of our job because yeah, the race takes place over a very small timeframe and maybe it's televised, maybe it's not, maybe it gets coverage in the magazines, maybe it doesn't. But all the rest of the promotion of your sponsors is, is up to you and how proactive you are in doing that.

• 23:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you've done an amazing job with your blog. I mean, your blog is super popular. You're always very like forthcoming and welcoming and you make it fun and you know, it's cool. I mean, there aren't that many, I mean, you know, most, most pro athletes have a blog or a website, but you're very proactive on it. You know, you're always posting and always trying to add value and you know, keep it entertaining. And it really is a window into, into your life, not just racing and training, but like your personal life. So you read your blog and it's like, oh, I know this person, you know, she feels like my friend.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  I try, I try. I try to work on that because yeah, I think, I think that it's, it helps people to, to know you as a person and, and

• 23:46Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  To sort of maybe get a glimpse into what goes into what we do for a living and um, yeah, I'm happy to, I quite enjoy writing because that's what I did in my previous life. So for me, this is, it's kind of like an obvious outlet.

• 24:03Rich Roll?

  Right. I want to talk about that in a minute, but I don't want to gloss over your third job as, as CEO of Smash Fest Queen.

• 24:11Rich Roll?

  So you're sitting across from me in a, in a tank top from, from your line Smash, which, by the way, the design is exceptional. Like who, who, like who, who is doing this with you? The logo is extraordinary.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. That is all my amazing business partner, Michelle Landry, who is many-time Iron Woman, Hawaii Ironman finisher, and a dear friend of mine for years, also like one of the athletes that I've coached. And she is really like the, she has the artistic vision and skill. And so we sort of, I know what I like. And so I can say, I like how that looks, but she can say, you know, the hummingbird tail needs a bit more shading here in this color. And then I see that the, you know, I see, I see how that turns out. And I'm like, that's awesome. I love it. That's, that's brilliant. Perfect. But, but I don't know how to make it look that way. And that's her. I mean, she is just, she is the artistic one in the

• 25:09Rich Roll?

  Well, you found the right person because the designs are really cool. It kind of reminds me of Free City. Do you know the Free City stuff? It used to be a retail store in, in, down in Malibu. I think they closed it. I think they sell their stuff in like Fred Segal and stuff like that. It's not tri-gear. It's not athletic apparel, but it has that, it's casual wear, but it has that a similar kind of design aesthetic with the bright, bright colors and all of that. It's really cool. But I have to say, I'm, I'm a little pissed because you're not making men's stuff, which brings up like a huge gripe that I have because I go to the, I go to the running shoe store or the, you know, The athletic apparel store and I'm immediately like gravitated to like this says a lot about me,

• 25:51Rich Roll?

  but I'm gravitate, I gravitate towards the women's shoes, like running shoes. Cause they always have cool colors and bright colors and it's always like, I was like, I want, and then you go to the men's section, it's like the same old black pair of, you know, running shorts and they're like really lame looking shoe with the muted gray and blue. And I'm like, why can't you make those cool colors for guys?

• 26:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:13Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 26:14Speaker 02

  That's so interesting. Well, you know,

• 26:16Rich Roll?

  Obviously it doesn't sell. If it's sold, then you know, they know the market research says, oh, guys don't, guys don't want to wear that kind of stuff.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:24Rich Roll?

  I'm, you know, maybe I'm weird that way, but like,

• 26:26Speaker 02

  No, we've had so many guys ask for stuff and we did do like a limited run of men's cycling kits. And now of course, now that Mikey showed up wearing it, all these guys want it.

• 26:36Rich Roll?

  I would definitely, I would definitely wear that kit. I'll put a picture in the show notes up of the kit because it's super cool.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you. Yeah. And he may even, he's, he wants to wear our women's multicolored tri kit, Ironman Austria in a couple of weeks. I'm just not sure if I can fit him into a large women's tri kit. But I've got one packed in the bag, so we're going to cut the built in bra out and see how we go.

• 26:57Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to make you commit to doing a men's line. Then you're going to have to change your website though, right?

• 27:02Speaker 02

  This is the problem. I know, I know, I know. So, but there is a reason we need the brand.

• 27:07Rich Roll?

  I'm okay with that. You can call me a Smash Fest queen. I'll wear it. I got no problem with that.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 27:13Rich Roll?

  But that's great. So, so what's the plan there? Just continue to slowly, organically grow it? Or you know, what are you looking to do with it?

• 27:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, we are in the process of, of designing and working on the manufacturing piece of doing our own garments because we have someone else making them for us right now. But that's really the next big step that we're going to take.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  And then, yeah, and then once we have that, I think we'll have the capacity to produce more than we are producing right now because as it stands, we seem to get things in and then sell out of them in two weeks and then have to order again. And so we're, we're kind of just learning about, you know, How much to order and so that we can sort of keep things in stock. It's a big learning process for us.

• 28:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but these are quality problems.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, it's totally good.

• 28:08Rich Roll?

  You're selling out on pre-orders.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:10Rich Roll?

  You're doing something right, so keep going.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Thank you. Yeah, no, we're very pleased. It's all good.

• 28:16Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, I want to rewind a little bit. You know, touching on one of the kind of points in common that we have is both being college swimmers, and I won't hold it against you that you went to USC. We'll talk about that later.

• 28:31Rich Roll?

  And you were quite the college swimming standout. I mean, you swam at Olympic trials. I mean, you competed in swimming at a very high level. How do you think that that has informed your approach to training and racing in Ironman?

• 28:46Speaker 02

  That's funny because I definitely, being on the team at USC, which was like a swimming powerhouse and having so many teammates who were on Olympic teams and mean world record holders, gold medalists, the whole deal. I certainly didn't feel like a standout in that role. That was very much a little fish in a big pond. And that was-

• 29:08Rich Roll?

  That's another thing we haven't come.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 29:12Rich Roll?

  I was on the team at Stanford, but I certainly wasn't like scoring a lot of points.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, same thing. And that was, I mean, that was by my choosing. It was kind of like a game time decision. Like when I was, I mean, my parents were, had their hearts set on me going to Harvard and I loved Harvard and but it was, it was that. It was go there and be the, be the best swimmer on the team as a freshman or go somewhere where I was a little fish and-

• 29:38Rich Roll?

  I had the, I did the exact same thing. I got into Harvard and I, I told them, I told Coach Bernal that I was going.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Did you really?

• 29:45Rich Roll?

  And then I visited Stanford at the last minute and I was like, no, I gotta, I gotta try this.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:51Rich Roll?

  And I wouldn't have been the best swimmer at Harvard, but I certainly would have been a little bit of a bigger fish.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  Well, their men's team, their men's team was legit.

• 29:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like Dave Berkoff was there.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 30:02Rich Roll?

  So, but, um, but yeah, that's a, that was a very, very tough decision for me. I mean, I remember distinctly, like, I got into Harvard. Like, who gets into Harvard? You know what I mean? Like, I couldn't believe it.

• 30:18Rich Roll?

  And when you get into Harvard, they send you this document that looks like a diploma.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  He's framed on his desk still.

• 30:25Rich Roll?

  And your name is in calligraphy on it. And you look at it and you're like, well, who am I to say no to this? Like, are you insane? And when I made that decision and I told my parents, I mean, my parents were like, are you, are you crazy? Like, what are you doing? You know? And I, and sometimes I think back and I go, God, I wonder how different my life would be had I made a different decision. I don't regret it. I'm glad, you know, with the decision that I made, but it's interesting. I didn't know that, that part of your story.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  That's so funny. Yep, yep. I mean, thankfully, my sister like took up the family, uh, the family torch and did her, did her law school there because yeah, all I had to show for myself was that certificate. But.

• 31:02Rich Roll?

  Your dad framed it. I wonder what happened to mine? I have no idea.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  That is so funny. And mine's legit still framed on my dad's desk. So.

• 31:10Rich Roll?

  So you still hold that over you?

• 31:12Speaker 02

  No, I think they kind of got over it when my sister went, but then it was probably until then that I still got some grief for that. Exactly.

• 31:19Rich Roll?

  And now she's ensconced downtown, working her butt off at O'Melveney on the, on the Michael Jackson trial while we're sitting out here in the beautiful.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Right, right. I mean.

• 31:29Rich Roll?

  Doing a podcast.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  It was really the first of a series of decisions. Yeah, exactly, exactly. That was the first of many decisions that made the parents think I was, I was nuts. So, um, so yeah, so I went to, I actually went to University of Michigan that at the time was the second of the, like, second in NC2As for women's swimming.

• 31:49Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did, you went there first?

• 31:51Speaker 02

  I went there for a year.

• 31:51Rich Roll?

  Well, here we have another point, we have another point in common.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  No way.

• 31:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So, uh, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I have to interject.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  Tell me.

• 32:00Rich Roll?

  Well, my entire family is originally from Michigan. My parents are from Detroit. I, I was born in Michigan. All of my cousins are from Grand Rapids. We spent all our summers in Michigan. And my grandfather. Was captain of the University of Michigan swim team in 1929.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 32:17Rich Roll?

  He was an American record holder in the 150 yard backstroke.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  No way.

• 32:23Rich Roll?

  Believe that was an event. And yeah, he was an Olympic hopeful. He got fourth at Olympic trials, but he was like a contemporary of like Johnny Weissmuller and like the great swimmers of the day when it was like Michigan, Michigan was like the premier swimming program back then. And so when I was looking at schools, it's like, well, I, I went to Michigan. I loved John or Benchek.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Oh, me too.

• 32:44Rich Roll?

  Coach there is like my absolute favorite.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 32:46Rich Roll?

  You know, and I seriously considered going, going there as well. Like I have tons, my, my cousin was editor of the Michigan Daily Newspaper. Like, oh, you know, like I have a lot of, my, my dad went to law school there. My mom went to undergrad there. So.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  No way.

• 33:01Rich Roll?

  I almost, I almost ended up there as well.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  It was so cold and gray.

• 33:05Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  I was just over the grayness after about eight months.

• 33:09Rich Roll?

  And you were like, I'm out of here. No more Matt Man pool.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  I came home for the summer and went to swim with Trojan Swim Club at USC and was like, like, I'm not going back. Like I had my Michigan tattoo and everything. I was staying. Like I was really, I didn't have that intention, but came back here to the sunshine and.

• 33:25Rich Roll?

  You did get a Michigan tattoo?

• 33:26Speaker 02

  I was the ringleader of our freshman class because all the swimmers got the M, the blue block M tattoo. But who was the freaking ringleader? I was the ringleader and then I was one of the transfers. I was the first one to get the tattoo.

• 33:37Rich Roll?

  You still have the block M on you?

• 33:39Speaker 02

  It has been slightly transformed.

• 33:41Rich Roll?

  Oh, it has? All right.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Yes. It's been slightly covered up.

• 33:44Rich Roll?

  That's really funny. Yeah. My grandfather, his coach was Matt Man, who's the, that's what the pool is named after there, the Matt Man.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Right. No way.

• 33:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 33:56Rich Roll?

  Crazy, right? But I don't blame you. Gray, freezing cold.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:00Rich Roll?

  You're like, I'm out of here.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  I was, I mean, I hadn't even considered going to USC because that was way too close to home, but.

• 34:07Rich Roll?

  That's a whole other podcast. You're like, I want to get away from home.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it was, and I didn't think, I wanted to be in school 45 minutes from where I grew up, but when I came back here and swam with that program and just, it was such a, such a good swimming program, such an amazing bunch of athletes to train with that I just totally into it.

• 34:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  But I was definitely low man on the totem pole and just happy to be at Olympic trials.

• 34:34Rich Roll?

  And who was your coach there?

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Mark Schubert.

• 34:37Rich Roll?

  Ah, maybe the most for, for the uninitiated or people listening out there who don't know that much about the world of swimming, Mark Schubert is quite possibly the most legendary swim coach of all time. I mean, countless, countless Olympians. I mean, he dates way back. I mean, he pioneered the Mission Viejo swimming program, which back in the 1970s was like the real first powerhouse club swimming program that just was, you know, basically producing Olympic gold medalists all over the place.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  Totally, totally. He was super hardcore.

• 35:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Super scary. But, but sort of training under coaches like that as, as a swimmer really, yeah, I mean, that, that I think like shaped me as a triathlete because there, there's a whole sort of skill set that you acquire being in a program like that. That's just, that transfers very well to this, this world, I think.

• 35:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I think that it's actually surprising to me that there aren't more college level swimmers in the world of pro triathlon because there is a certain incredibly rigorous discipline that goes into training and competing at that level in swimming. I mean, you know, I can only, I speak to it only because that's my only experience. I wasn't like a track and field athlete or anything like that. So I don't know that much about those worlds. But when you're swimming, you know, upwards of 20,000 meters a day and you're getting up and going to, you know, practice at 4:30 in the morning and swimming for two, two and a half hours in the morning and then, you know, two, three hours at night every day, not including dry lands, like that is, that's, you know, that's on a, on par with what it's like to prepare

• 36:15Rich Roll?

  for an Ironman. It's the same kind of, you know, I think you need the same kind of mental discipline and focus as well as the ability to kind of withstand and survive, you know, that amount of physical beating day in and day out.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Totally, totally. Yeah, no, I mean, I absolutely agree and. I would guess that the reason why we don't, we don't see more of us in our sport is, is I, I really felt like.

• 36:41Rich Roll?

  Well, swimmers can't run.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Well, they can't, I mean, heck, I can't run though. I've figured out a way to make it happen, but um, I mean, that's where we used to run. Even when you got put in the fat group or preseason, but I was always kind of both. I was in preseason running and fat group running, which means you run year round. Well, it means, you're like overweight. So that, that means you have to come like three mornings a week early to training because you're overweight and run.

• 37:06Rich Roll?

  That's a healthy message. College level.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  So I was always in fat group too. And um, but I was, I was like, most of the team was faster in our three miler morning jogs than I was. I was definitely not, not a runner really, but I think that probably that I felt, I kind of felt like the vast majority of people that I swam with. Finished their careers like totally over it. Whereas I mean, just burnt out and were sort of counting the days till. They could fulfill their commitment for their scholarship or whatever. And, and for me, it just, for whatever reason, it was just, it was never like that. It was. When I was, I retired after Olympic trials because that was a few months after I graduated and um, because there was no. Career in swimming for me. I had to get a real job and all of that. And.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  I was one of the few people who, I wasn't counting my days. I wasn't excited to be done, but it's just, it was time. There was no other. Options for me in swimming. But I think, I think a lot of people end that because of the demands that you just described. I think a lot of people finish that very.

• 38:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're like, it's over.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  Over it. Yeah.

• 38:11Rich Roll?

  So glad it's done.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. It's just, that just wasn't my experience.

• 38:15Rich Roll?

  And I think also, you know, kind of. Uh, taking off on this idea of being a, a small fish in a big pond. I know for me, and I'm interested in, in what it was like for you. You, you go into workout every day looking for how you're going to overcome this kind of talent deficit. Like.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 38:35Rich Roll?

  You're surrounded by people, like I swam in a lane, the butterfly lane every day with Pablo Morales, you know, Olympic gold medalist, you know. Winningest swimmer in NCAA history, American record, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And, you know, I just stared at his feet as they got further and further in front of me every day. And I'm like, what could I possibly do to bridge this gap? I'm never gonna, I don't have his stroke. I don't have his physical build. I'm never gonna be as good as him. So what can I do with the, with, you know, the, whatever I've been given to, you know, make that gap a little bit smaller? And for me, it was always, I gotta work harder, you know, I gotta, I gotta train harder. I gotta be more focused in my training.

• 39:16Rich Roll?

  And I think that that is something that really translates well into the world of triathlon.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Totally. I agree. And I think that's, that's one of the things that really sort of got me hooked on this sport. And particularly at these longer distances is I feel like certainly talent is, you know, a contributing factor to one's success in this sport. But I think it's much less of a contributing factor than it, it is in a one-minute swimming race.

• 39:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's always gonna be the outlier, like the Scott Jurek, who's, you know, super gifted. But I think in general, that is, that is accurate, that the longer the distances is, talent becomes reduced as a factor and the work becomes more paramount.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that's, so I felt like this, this is, this is, if, if there was ever a ballgame for me, this is it.

• 40:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Because I can suffer and I can train a lot.

• 40:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 40:24Rich Roll?

  How does the transition occur from swimming into triathlon? And then, you know, ultimately under kind of Brett Sutton's umbrella?

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Well, I remember the morning after my last race, which I think was August 13th of 2000. We were in Indianapolis for the trials and I'm like, right, well now I've got a, now I'm gonna be a runner, I'm gonna be a triathlete and it was, I had already, I think, picked on the calendar, my first marathon, which was gonna be the California International Marathon in December.

• 40:58Rich Roll?

  So this was very calculated, you're like, I'm gonna do this now, I have to perpetuate this lifestyle.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it wasn't like, I never in a zillion years that I think, I'm gonna be a professional triathlete and this is gonna be my job, never, never, ever. I mean, a couple of my best friends were good enough to be professional swimmers and that was just, that looked like an absolute dream to me, but I never thought that that kind, that a professional athlete would be my life. It was just like, I wanna do a marathon, which to me at that point in time was mind boggling, and then I wanna do a triathlon. Forget about Ironman, that was like, not really sort of in my head at that point. So, the morning after my last race, I remember going out and running 30 minutes. And it was like, hot, humid Indianapolis

• 41:46Speaker 02

  summer, and I remember, I actually hadn't run in several months because...

• 41:51Rich Roll?

  So wait, so you're still at Olympic trials?

• 41:54Speaker 02

  At the meet, yeah.

• 41:56Rich Roll?

  The meet isn't even over yet.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, my, my like fiance at the time, who was one of my teammates, and he was still racing, but I was like, right, I gotta go running this morning, like, meet wasn't over.

• 42:05Rich Roll?

  You just can't sit still at all.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I just had this thing in my head, and I went out for 30 minutes and almost killed me, because somehow I had managed to escape the fat group for several months, because I'd gotten like ridiculously overtrained, and so the coach had pulled me from, from running. But, yeah, I remember 30 minutes just in that heat and I remember it being so, so hard, and I said, right, well, I just have to do this every day until it gets easier, and that's what I did.

• 42:32Rich Roll?

  Right, and so you do that first marathon?

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:35Rich Roll?

  And how'd that go?

• 42:36Speaker 02

  I ran actually with Colleen Wachob, who you know.

• 42:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  And it was her first, my best friend since I was nine. I made her run with me. We did all of our training together and we ran side by side the whole time and chatted. Actually, she would say that I was just talking the whole time.

• 42:53Rich Roll?

  And just to interject, Colleen, Colleen Wachob is, is married to Jason Wachob, who, if you've been listening to the show, was just on the podcast a couple of episodes ago. The mind-body-green guy.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, exactly. And so we ran the whole thing together. We crossed the finish line, holding hands, in three hours and 49 minutes.

• 43:11Rich Roll?

  I love that you still remember your time.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was just like so, so impressed with myself. I mean, breaking four hours, that was just...

• 43:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's pretty good.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was a big day. So that was the beginning of this addiction.

• 43:26Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm, this addiction.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you just, you just put it right on the table.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:34Rich Roll?

  All right, so, so then, so, so, so when does the bike come in? Oh, you're probably thinking, well, that wasn't so bad and I'm obviously good at swimming.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Right, well, the bike actually, the bike actually came, the bike actually arrived roughly one year before that, simply because there was like a sprint triathlon on in Hermosa Beach. This was the beginning of my senior year of college and it involved a nine-mile bike ride. So my parents, and I had a couple of friends who were like entered in it. So my parents got me for my birthday, my first bike, and I rode it for like 10 miles once and then did the triathlon.

• 44:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  So I had actually ridden a bike.

• 44:15Rich Roll?

  Don't tell me you like won the triathlon.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  No, I think I was like fourth or something like that. But it was a little sprint race in Hermosa Beach. So the bike was there, it just wasn't being used a whole lot. And I, I had these visions of doing tries, but... I remember I was living up in Palo Alto and I remember that I would I would go out on my bike for about four or five miles and I would get scared of a car and turn around and come home. So it wasn't, there was not a lot of riding going on.

• 44:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  But there were, there were ideas about this triathlon thing.

• 44:46Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So then how does that start to get realized?

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Well, that starts to get realized because like six weeks after my first marathon, I decided to do a 50 miler.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Because that seems like a good idea.

• 44:59Rich Roll?

  No, a run.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Like an Avalon 50.

• 45:01Rich Roll?

  Of course, right? Who doesn't come to that conclusion?

• 45:05Speaker 02

  It was like, well, I did this, so now I could probably do 50. That was kind of my train of thought. So then I did this 50 miler. I survived that. And then it was like, well, I ran for, it took me like nine hours and 40 minutes.

• 45:18Rich Roll?

  But you, you ran an ultra before you really had ever done a legit triathlon. You'd only done one marathon.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I'd done like the Hermosa Beach try twice. That was it. So, yeah, so I thought, okay, I ran for nine hours and 40 minutes. So I can, surely I can do swim, bike and run combo for like 13 hours. That's what I was figuring. So literally probably the week after I finished that run in January, I entered Ironman Florida for November.

• 45:44Rich Roll?

  Gotcha.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Having done a sprint try.

• 45:46Rich Roll?

  Gotcha.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  So that was how I got my name on my first Ironman start list.

• 45:51Rich Roll?

  Right. And did you, you know, how did you approach that? I mean, did you hire a coach? Or do you just thought, I'm gonna, I'll figure it out?

• 45:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll figure it out. I didn't hire a coach until Brett Sutton. So that was like 2006, end of 05. So I did five years or so of like winging it. Yeah, that first year, I mean, I had no idea. I did like an Olympic distance, a half Ironman. And then Ironman was next.

• 46:17Rich Roll?

  And how did that go?

• 46:19Speaker 02

  You know, it exceeded my expectations once again because I thought I would do roughly 13 hours and something. That was kind of my prediction. And I did it in 12 and a half hours. Um, the bike ride took me 7:03. And I did not know how to use my air bars. I was on a road bike with clip-ons, but I didn't get in them, even though we were in Florida and it was dead flat because I couldn't balance on my bike in my air bar. So, um, did the whole thing sitting up and, uh, but like ran the marathon, felt okay. Was completely crippled afterwards because I was totally ill-prepared, but, um, but I loved it.

• 46:56Rich Roll?

  And you're hooked. So, you know, how do you get on Brett Sutton's radar? I mean, you can't just hire Brett Sutton, right? You have to, you have to be performing at a really high level before something like that can be possible.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Well, that was like, so that was fast forward four years after my first Ironman. So I had done several Ironman by that point. I had raced as a pro for one season. My first year racing pro was 2005 and I was definitely struggling. Like I had quit my day job and in an attempt to sort of try to make a go with this. And I mean, there was, I was nowhere close to being able to make a living.

• 47:33Rich Roll?

  What were you doing for a day job?

• 47:34Speaker 02

  I was in a PhD program in teaching undergrads at USC. Yeah. So I took a leave of absence.

• 47:40Rich Roll?

  In, uh, American literature?

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Exactly. Um, so the whole reason I was able to even get Brett Sutton's attention was because I had a very good friend who had, um, had trained with him. He was in like a standout age group athlete who had been coached by Brett online. Way before Brett even had an email account, like literally he would receive emails from Brett's wife. And it was crazy. It was super old school, um, but had been out to Switzerland and like spent time with Brett in person. And so he contacted Brett for me and the only reason I think that Brett took me on at that time. I mean, at the time he had like one Ironman athlete. This is long before Chrissy Wellington. This is long before Team TBB, before he was trendy. He was just this like fringe,

• 48:27Speaker 02

  like coach that was known in the ITU because he had had plenty of like ITU world champions, but. In the Ironman world, people were like, who is Brett Sutton? He's just some crazy, crazy guy, so.

• 48:40Rich Roll?

  He's like the Mark Schubert of triathlon.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Well, exactly. And that was, and but Brett had previously been a swim coach like for the Australian national team. So he knew Schubert well. And he said, she can swim for Schubert. She can handle this.

• 48:51Rich Roll?

  I mean, obviously he looks at you and he goes, she swam for Schubert. She was at the Olympic trials. You know, like, there's potential here.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  I guess. I mean, that, that was, that was his assessment from afar. I mean, I remember when we were, we were going back and forth before he agreed to let me come for a trial. And we were going back and forth over email. And he asked me for like a resume. So I sent him my results and my splits. And he writes back with like his assessment and like the first, you know, in the first couple of sentences, he says, well, the swim is, he said, the, the bike is shit, the run is shit. And for a swimmer, the swim is shit too. I was like, awesome.

• 49:36Rich Roll?

  He's a kid. You're like, okay, I know, you know, you're like, he's, he's my guy.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Exactly. I just, I think that because like, he probably agreed to take me on ultimately because I was unfazed by that comment. And I just said, I remember writing back, like, I'm not looking for flattery, just a means to get faster. And, um, and so I went off to Switzerland and, and that was, that was the beginning of it.

• 50:01Rich Roll?

  You have to try out, right? Is that how it works?

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you, yeah. I mean, he basically like gave me directions to this little Swiss village in the middle of nowhere. Like, I mean, I remember the email he sent with, you know, get off at this train stop. And I mean, literally in the middle of nowhere. And, um, and yeah, I just, I went there for like a month or so and he checked things out. And it was, and then the first sort of criteria of, you know, so his first sort of screening, I guess, was, this was September of oh five and I qualified for Hawaii and was planning to race Hawaii the next month. And he was like, yeah, no, you're not going to Hawaii. Like you either come to Switzerland. So you have no business being in Kona. Like you're not good enough for that. So, um, you need to like bail on that and come to Switzerland or we're done here. So.

• 50:47Rich Roll?

  Right. So that's what you did.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  Totally changed my plans. Yeah.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And so how did things start to change? I mean, to, you know, paint a picture of what it, what it was like to be training underneath, underneath him. I mean, he's such a mythic figure in the sport.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Well, it was, it was a big sort of culture shock for me coming from Southern California and my cellphone and my fro yo and my, that whole thing, going to like metal of nowhere, small town in Switzerland, don't speak the language. Um, mind you, this is like before the days of BlackBerry, before the days of Skype. I didn't have internet in my apartment. Like you would have to go to the smoke filled cafe to have any contact with the outside world really and use the internet there. Um, and you don't know, you know, you don't know what you're doing tomorrow. You don't even know what you're doing at 3pm today. All you know is that you have to be at the pool at 7am, just ostensibly to swim. Some

• 51:44Speaker 02

  days he'll say, no, go running instead.

• 51:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  But, and then he'll tell you what you're doing in that swim workout and after the swim workout, he'll tell you what you're doing at 10am and then he may tell you what you're doing at 3pm. But you completely, I mean, I was 27, so I was a full grown adult and um-

• 52:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not like you're 19.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  No, yeah, I'd spent a few years like in the working world. Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, I was a teacher and all these things and then we're there. You basically have to, basically had to completely give over control of your life to this guy. I mean, that was it. I remember like needing a haircut and you couldn't schedule a haircut anywhere because you didn't know when you had time for a haircut and you weren't gonna know.

• 52:23Rich Roll?

  And how many other athletes were there doing it?

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Well, when I showed up, because it was the end of the season, um, it was me and two other guys. That was it. And then they both took off and ultimately it was just me and then I followed Brett from there in Switzerland to, uh, to Brazil and then I lived in Brazil like with him and one of his other athletes for a couple of months. Um, so it, yeah, it was a very strange thing as an, as an adult to just, you just basically sign your life over to him. He tells you where you're going, when, what you're doing today, tomorrow, what to eat. In my case, he told me what to eat.

• 52:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  You know, it wouldn't be totally out of the question for him to show up unannounced at your apartment and check what was in your kitchen.

• 53:03Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  So it was pretty full on.

• 53:06Rich Roll?

  Oh my God. That's so intense. And, uh, and, uh, and the, from what I understand just in, based on what I've read, I mean, he's incredibly demanding in these workouts, right? Like it's, it's at a fever pitch.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, there was- I mean, the first few months were probably sort of the most trying because I was this relatively new pro, not knowing, knowing I had risked a lot and not knowing whether I was going to like really make this thing work. And I, and there were many, many workouts where I didn't know if I was going to make it through. I didn't know if I was going to survive, you know, and, and then you also have this voice in the back of your head like, you know, is this even gonna?

• 53:54Rich Roll?

  Right, like I had a good. I was teaching at USC.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  Right. And then is it, is it even going to be, am I going to live through this workout? A, and then B, is this, is this all going to pan out?

• 54:05Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  At late, like, you know, several months down the track, it became very obvious that the work was working. And then as hard as any given day was, like you had, I had then received sort of like confirmation that yeah, this is working and, and it's all worth it.

• 54:22Rich Roll?

  So was there like one breakthrough race where everything kind of came together and you put the pieces together for the first time?

• 54:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. That would like Ironman Arizona in 2006 was, was my first Ironman of that, of that year. So I had then been with Brett for about six months and, and I got third. And so it's my first podium and.

• 54:46Rich Roll?

  So only, only six months. You'd only been with them six months?

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:50Rich Roll?

  So really like six months with your first real coach?

• 54:53Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 54:55Rich Roll?

  That's pretty quick.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we crammed a lot of work into that time, but, but yeah.

• 55:01Rich Roll?

  Your body can only absorb so much training in, in a given amount of time, right? I mean, it takes years to develop your.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, yes. And I think that I probably went into a lot of races that season pretty darn tired. But it was still, even me racing tired was still a lot better than me racing unfit.

• 55:24Rich Roll?

  Wow. So, so you get third at Ironman Arizona after working with him for only six months. And then, so, and your first win was in 2008?

• 55:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 55:37Rich Roll?

  Two thousand eight and that was Wisconsin?

• 55:39Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 55:40Rich Roll?

  Right, so, so two more years before your first win. I mean, was that, were you under breath that whole time?

• 55:45Speaker 02

  I was, yeah. That win was, I mean, I joined him in September of oh five and that win was in September of oh eight and that was three years of working with him, which felt like a long time. And I mean, it was, that was a lot of,

• 55:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  A lot of blood, sweat and tears.

• 56:02Rich Roll?

  I mean, what do you think it is about him that has, you know, created this mystique about, I mean, other than sort of abdicating control of your life over to him? What is it that makes him special or unique as a triathlon coach and, and his ability to kind of produce these champions?

• 56:20Speaker 02

  I think, um, I think for sure the, the Jedi mind control is a, is a big component. And

• 56:27Rich Roll?

  Does he do that with the men too?

• 56:28Speaker 02

  Well,

• 56:29Rich Roll?

  Cause that's a, it seems like a female male kind of control paradigm.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. There's a reason he doesn't, I think, have as much success with the men. Is because that sort of piece doesn't factor in as much. Like, I'm not trying to stereotype, but I just, I saw it at work firsthand. And I think that we are a lot more willing to sort of give him that kind of

• 56:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Control.

• 56:49Rich Roll?

  I mean, I've seen that with swim coaches on a similar level.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. And, and, I mean, in our, in our sport, there is, I think, there's obviously a huge mental piece when, especially when you're talking about these longer races and the going gets tough and the self doubt sets in and, and if he can get you to believe that you, you've got it inside you, well, then that's, that's half the battle. And, and so that, that is a big piece. Um, and it's something that I sort of understood from, from the first day that I was there, which was that just, I just felt like you had to be a hundred and fifty percent in. Um, and, I mean, I, I never forget, there was one day, we were in Brazil and we were doing hundreds fast. And, I mean, he literally was telling

• 57:36Speaker 02

  us, he was inventing time. He was like, no, you didn't do a one thirteen, you did a one seventeen. And I'm looking at the clock and I know I did a one thirteen, but he's telling me that I'm swimming like shit and I did a once, and I actually did a one seventeen, you know? He was literally inventing time and that sometimes things got that crazy, but you just have to be like, yes, sir. And you have to like really buy into it. Um, because I knew that made it, you know, that made it more effective. Um, so there's for sure that piece. And then there, for me, the, the other huge piece was just, That he subjected us to like, besides making, making you super, super fit just by the daily grind.

• 58:16Speaker 02

  There was, it was really for me, these kind of key sessions that were just so sort of like physically taxing and, and like mind boggling that, that he would subject, you know, me in particular to, because a lot of them I had to do by myself.

• 58:34Rich Roll?

  Right. Give me an example of what one of those key workouts was like.

• 58:37Speaker 02

  There was, I remember the weekend before I went to Ironman Louisville, um, which was the weekend before Wisconsin. So the week, so seven days before Louisville, I had to do like a marathon on the track. It was basically like 42 800s with a 200 jog in between. So it's just a marathon, basically straight running, but the 800s were intervals. I mean, that's a week before an Ironman and that's by myself.

• 59:01Rich Roll?

  A week before you're going to do two consecutive Ironmans.

• 59:04Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. And it was just like that, those track sessions were just such a head trip. Um, I think more than anything that you're like, oh, next weekend I'm going to like run the same distance and have people cheering for me and I'm going to get paid for it. Like that's easy. And so that for me was a huge, huge takeaway. I mean, he, like there were just a lot of, of days like that where I would finish them and, and I knew that was harder than the race.

• 59:28Rich Roll?

  Right. Right. Right. Right. And so, um, so at some point, so a year ago, you decided to start training with Siri Lindley.

• 59:39Rich Roll?

  When did you, I mean, was there a period in between Brett and Siri where you were doing something else or what, what, you know, what was that transition all about?

• 59:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it was a hard transition after Brett. It was really hard because I would have stayed with him forever. And he was very clear, like you have three years and. I happened to win an Ironman at the end of three years and he, I think that sort of far exceeded his expectations for me. Um, and so he was like, my work here is done and like I'm over this basically. So I had to find something else and there was nothing else that I was really excited about because I think he's the best. Um, and had to find a new way and I went through like three different coaches

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  before I found Siri. Um, and that was, that was pretty rough. So finding Siri

• 1:00:38Speaker 02

  has been really good because, well, first of all, she trained under Brett and she won two world championships under Brett. So she's very, very familiar with where I came from. And um, I've also realized that at this point in my career, I have some pretty specific ideas about what I need to be doing in my training. And um, whereas with Brett, I quite liked having a set schedule, having zero say over it, never having to think about it, just executing the instructions.

• 1:01:05Rich Roll?

  But as you mature as an athlete and you gain that experience and you know, you know, you know yourself better, you have a better idea of what works for you and what doesn't, I would imagine.

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And I, I, I've realized that, that now I sort of need some input over my plan or, or I won't completely buy into it because I am so set on some, you know, a few certain things. But, but Siri's been great because she'll introduce new workouts into my repertoire that, that are, you know, challenge me and keep things interesting. And I mean, if left to my own devices, I would probably just be like replicating a program that I did with Brett. Um, and that's not necessarily exactly what I need to be doing now. So.

• 1:01:49Rich Roll?

  And you know, there's, there's people listening to this who, who, you know, aren't triathletes. So just, just for, for them, Siri is one of the great triathlete, triathlete, triathlete coaches out there. And I love her to death. She's so cool because she's so full of positive energy. She's like the best cheerleader and she just wants like her athletes to not only be. Selling but having fun like she seems to create this really you know forward thinking optimistic environment around her athletes and she's one of the only coaches if not the only who really creates community around her program and her team like she she I guess she just moved everybody out to Boulder is that right but but for years she was out here in Los Angeles I think

• 1:02:33Rich Roll?

  initially people were like why are you why are you doing this in LA you should go to Boulder or San Diego or one of these places but she knew what I know which is that out here is a great place to train you know if you know where to go and you know I would see her group outriding and you know she's always like they go off for group rides and she's in the car driving behind them cheering with her dog and you know I mean what other coach does that you know it's amazing

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  right it is it is her support is is awesome and yeah she's just unfailingly positive and enthusiastic and and that's just been such a great sort of addition to my training

• 1:03:12Rich Roll?

  right and I wanted to talk talk about one thing we talked about this the other day

• 1:03:19Rich Roll?

  this idea of the difference between training in a group and training on your own and kind of the perils and pitfalls like there's positives and negatives that that go into when you're training with other people as opposed to training like I'm always kind of a lone wolf for a variety of reasons you know I love training with the group but I also know when I'm training with a group I might not be sticking to what I'm supposed to be doing for that workout you know like every workout has a purpose and if I'm riding in you know the the Saturday group ride or you know running with friends I'll look down at my garment and I'm like I'm either going too fast or too slow you know based on what I'm supposed to be doing that day and so I end up doing most of my

• 1:04:01Rich Roll?

  training alone so I just wanted to like tap your experience with that kind of thing

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  yeah I think I do think that that is a very sort of tricky dynamic to negotiate and you know particularly I found at this point in my career I do really really sort of need I know that I need training partners

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  Just for motivation. I just, I can see the drastic effect that it has on my motivation for a given session. And so I know that I need these people, but I think that when you're in a group that is too much of a group, I mean, it's great to have one or two people with you, if everyone's sort of on the same page about that workout. But I think that if you get in a bigger group, I think the dangers of like a squad environment are that that people get sort of wrapped up in racing.

• 1:05:01Rich Roll?

  Well, everyone's highly competitive.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Highly competitive. And the bigger the group gets, the greater the chances are that there's at least one person who's ready to crush that easy four hour ride. And then your group's going to split up and your choice is to smash yourself or ride by yourself. So that's where sort of a group dynamic gets tough. We're very fortunate in Tucson that we have several pros that live kind of within like three miles of each other. And one of the, one of series other athletes, reigning world champion, actually, Leander Cave, lives just down the street from me. And so, and then my husband, obviously, does the same thing that I do for a living. And so

• 1:05:41Rich Roll?

  The GCM.

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  The GCM, the German Cycling Machine. Exactly. So between all these folks locally, it's quite easy to, to link up with one or two folks for a session. And then, and then I think it's a lot easier to accomplish like what your mission is. And we'll always communicate that, like, hey, I've got to do 10 minute efforts today, or I've got to ride easy. Okay. Well, I got to ride a bit harder. So you just sit in. Cool. We're cool. But with the big group, it's a little bit harder to arrange things like that.

• 1:06:10Rich Roll?

  Right. And how do you think your, how has your training evolved over the years? Like, you know, what are some of the things that, you know, you've gleaned from all this experience that maybe might be helpful for the amateur out there listening?

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  Gosh.

• 1:06:26Rich Roll?

  That's a pretty broad vague question, actually.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I guess, I mean,

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  Sort of for me personally, one of the things that I've learned over the years is that I can handle and thrive off of probably a lot more training than most would advise.

• 1:06:45Rich Roll?

  For?

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  You know, as a general rule. And I think that, yeah, a lot of people would look at some of the stuff that I do and say, that's ridiculous and that's too much and whatever. But I've, you know, in my time since Brett, I've tried it a couple other ways. I've tried it sort of more conventional ways and it doesn't work. It doesn't work for me. And so, I mean, I need to train a lot and I need to do some, some days that are probably bigger than most people would advise. But that works for me. And it is, I mean, what I've learned is that, is it is so, everything with training is so individual. And I mean, it's just with athletes I coach, it's the same thing. I mean, everyone is on a pretty different plan depending on, on who they are. But the, I mean, the general, general

• 1:07:30Speaker 02

  rules that I, and sort of advice that I would give to everyone is just, is it really with our sport, I think that, you know, going well and improving really comes down to discipline and to, you know, when the alarm goes off in the morning, like get out of bed and do what's on your plan, period. Like that, I guess that that seems really, really obvious. But I've realized through working with athletes and just, yeah, being in the sport for a while, that that's not as obvious as it seems to someone who was a college summer. When you can't just not show up for workout, you're going to lose your scholarship. Like there's no choice. You just get up and do the training.

• 1:08:05Rich Roll?

  Right. And that's also informed by being under Brett, where it's like, there's no guesswork or decision making. You have no responsibility over that. It's abdicated to him. And, you know, when you're on your own, you have to be your own Brett Sutton, right? And, and sometimes that means like, the trick that I always use is, I just have to turn off my thinking brain, you know? And it's like, when the alarm goes off, I don't get into a debate or an, or an argument with myself and try to evaluate all the reasons why I should stay in bed or whatever. You just, you just get up and you do it as if somebody's telling you, you have to. And sometimes that's the only way that I get out of bed.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  Exactly. Exactly. No, that's, that's so right. I mean, it's just. Yeah, just gay. You posted a quote on Twitter. It was like a few weeks ago. It's something about don't think, just start running or something like that. And I was like, that's so true. It's so true. Just.

• 1:08:53Rich Roll?

  I mean, I'll be like, you know, for me, the some of the hardest sessions for me are like afternoon runs. Like, I gotta do it in the morning. But, you know, every once in a while, I have the afternoon run, or I do double run day some days. And that afternoon run just wreaks havoc on my mind. Like, I'm just like, I can't do it. I don't want to do it. Because I always feel lousy for the first 15 or 20 minutes. And the only way that I do it is I just, I have to be, I have to not think about it. I have to just start moving. And even if I feel like crap for the first 15 or 20 minutes of it, to just push through that and and end that debate. It's like, you make a decision mentally, like, I can engage this argument in my head, and go down the rabbit hole with that, or just choose to disengage and not have that argument at all, and just start moving your feet.

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Because you know, I mean, again, I think that this is on like, a Nike ad that I had posted in my bathroom for years. But, and it said, no one ever goes out the door for goes out for a run and regrets it, right? You never, once you're out there, once you're finished, you never regret that you went on it. So just go.

• 1:09:58Rich Roll?

  Exactly. Why is that so hard, though?

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  No, I know what you mean.

• 1:10:02Rich Roll?

  Life would be a lot easier if it was easier to do that.

• 1:10:04Speaker 02

  I find afternoon sessions for definitely harder to motivate for than, I mean, I would love to, I mean, this morning, I kind of banged out consecutive swim, bike, run, because I knew I was coming up here to meet you. But that's, that's not normal. I mean, I will usually have something in the afternoon. And it's, it does get harder to get, put everything else aside and get that next workout done.

• 1:10:26Rich Roll?

  For sure.

• 1:10:34Rich Roll?

  So I want to talk a little bit about Ultraman. You know, you're the first, you're the first Ultraman person I've had on the show.

• 1:10:41Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, really? Wow. I'm so honored. I love it.

• 1:10:44Rich Roll?

  So cool. So it's so cool that you, as a pro triathlete, you know, took that race on, you know, it's sort of, it's Really not on the schedule or the radar for any, you know, most pros or I don't, you know, I don't even know if any of them even consider it, you know, of any merit at all. And, and it was awesome to see you, you know, go and do that race. And I'm interested in, first of all, like, why you wanted to do it, and also how the preparation, like how the training for that, if at all, was any different from what you do when you're preparing for an Ironman?

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  Well, it's funny you mentioned that about sort of Ultraman not being on, not being on the pros radars and people not thinking it's sort of worthy of their time because I never, I never, I never had that perspective on the race because I was introduced to the race by Jonas Colting, who is, was a very accomplished, like Swedish pro, who has won Ultraman a couple times. And I got to know him just before his, his first Ultraman. And I remember he came to my house in Manhattan Beach, either on his way to Hawaii or home from Hawaii. And so that's how I was introduced to it. So I always thought like, yeah, this is hardcore, like badass race.

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  Jonas does it. And he told me how ridiculously hard it was. So I, I mean, to me, that was, the minute I heard about it from him, it was, it's been on my radar. And that was, yeah, like I said, oh, four, oh, five. So it was a while before I first did it in 2010. And really, I have to admit that my training for that race wasn't all that specific. I had done, I had done eight Ironmans that year before Ultraman. I mean, and, and I raced Kona, which was the month before.

• 1:12:40Rich Roll?

  Right. It's right before it.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. So.

• 1:12:42Rich Roll?

  Well, but yeah, but for you, it's like, all right, well, whatever.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  Well, so I didn't really have the luxury of doing Ultraman specific training because it was really sort of like

• 1:12:51Rich Roll?

  You were gearing for Hawaii.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  Do Hawaii, recover, and then, I mean, I think I literally did probably three, two or three quote unquote Ultraman weeks.

• 1:13:01Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. But you weren't like banking 40 mile runs and

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  No, no, definitely not. And again, I had done, you know, I had, by that point in time, I had done a handful of ultra marathons and whatnot. So I had run 50 miles before, like a number of times. So that, that wasn't really, that wasn't the issue. But I mean, if I were to do it again, I would, I would do, you know, I didn't do the, the long bike rides and stuff. And I really, really suffered a lot, especially on day, on the day two when it's 170 miles.

• 1:13:31Rich Roll?

  It's really, it's really a cycling oriented race.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  It really is.

• 1:13:34Rich Roll?

  Much more balanced to the cyclist.

• 1:13:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely. It is. I mean, that's what I tell everyone. I'd like, because is, since I did it, I have had a lot of other pros inquire with me and express interest in, in doing it in the very near future. So, and that's what I tell them all. I mean, my girlfriends who are cyclists who have expressed interest, I mean, I tell them, it's your race. It's absolutely a cyclist's race. So that's what I saw because there's just, things can blow out so far on the bike that

• 1:14:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:06Speaker 02

  I think, like, I'm interested to hear what you think about this. I tell people that for the men, I think that things can change quite drastically for you guys on day three, because I see the guys blowing up like crazy. Like, like you could, I see crazy blowups amongst the, the male contenders on day three. I've never seen it amongst the women. Never seen someone walk like a half, walk a marathon or whatever.

• 1:14:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's interesting. I think that there's something about women, especially as they advance in age, that are adept in this sport. Like, they just get better and better in the run. You know, like, there were some really fast women runners that are just putting the hurt on the guys on that run. You know, you just don't see that in other races. It is interesting. Yeah. I mean, you know, the bike blows it all apart, for sure. And

• 1:14:59Rich Roll?

  I don't know what to think. I mean, my perspective on it is, well, first of all, it's the only triathlon where you can even like distinguish yourself for five seconds as a swimmer. I like that part of it. You know what I mean?

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  That is nice.

• 1:15:13Rich Roll?

  You get five minutes of glory coming out of the water first, which is nice.

• 1:15:17Speaker 02

  True.

• 1:15:17Rich Roll?

  And if you're halfway decent on the bike, maybe you can hold on to that for a little while. And, you know, I luckily was able to do that one year. But, you know, I think for, I think for, you know, Chris Howth, who's my coach, would tell me, he's like, you gotta prepare for this like you're, you're preparing for the Tour de France. Like you gotta think like a tour rider and train like a tour rider and eat like a tour rider. Everything from what you're eating on the bike during, not just during training, but during racing, like eating real food, like they have lunch, you know, while they're, while they're, you know, in the middle of the race. And to kind of get into that mindset, it's almost more like that than it is a triathlon in certain respects, I think.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  And that's so interesting because I learned that from your book. When I was reading your account of, of the, the second day bike at Ultraman,

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  that surprised me so much because I just assumed this was this very sort of individual race because it's so long and everyone's going to get so spread out. But I for sure was not prepared to be riding at like 250 watts, you know, in the first hour and a half of day two and be getting dropped like.

• 1:16:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, people just, I mean, you, you, you watch the Tour de France in the beginning of the stage, they just all start riding slowly and then, you know, the pack kind of slowly congeals. You know, there's always somebody who's going to try a breakaway. But at Ultraman, you're start, you're look, the, the beginning of day two is 20 miles of downhill on wet pavement as it's raining almost every year. And people just take off, you know, they just take off like from the gun. And you're like, what is going on? And you got 170 miles to ride that day.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  Right, right. Yeah. And then I, I mean, I just remember as soon as we got down that descent, people just started drilling it.

• 1:17:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:02Speaker 02

  And I was like, whatever, I'm pacing myself, you know? And I think I sort of missed the pack, as it were, and I didn't realize there was gonna be a pack. But then there I was and I was solo for the next 150 miles. I think I saw two people all day.

• 1:17:15Rich Roll?

  And mentally?

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  I was dumb. I was so dumb and I had no idea.

• 1:17:18Rich Roll?

  It's brutal to be like by yourself and like not even know where you are, how you start going, well, they're, they're 100 miles ahead of me.

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  Oh, sure. When I finished that stage, I was so messed up that I was absolutely, I had no idea. My, my, I got flattered. So my computer was, I had switched out my rear, rear wheel. So I didn't have my, no longer have my computer.

• 1:17:37Rich Roll?

  Your power top.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. And in my head, I had been out there for like 12 hours. I mean, I really had no idea. And I was sure that, you know, Amber, the leader had, must have finished the stage. I mean, I was absolutely certain that she would have come in an hour and a half ahead of me. And in fact, she came in like, I think a half an hour ahead of me, which is a ton of time. But in my imagination, it was just, it was way bigger than that.

• 1:17:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, going in, how was it, you know, with all this experience as an Ironman athlete, like, how was it different than what you thought it was gonna be? I mean, did you think, oh, this is just like doing a really long Ironman? And, you know, if so, how did it differentiate itself?

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I think I did think it was probably like, like a really long Ironman. That's a good analogy.

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  It was way harder than I expected. And it's not that I expected it to be easy, but I, I mean, it's kind of like everyone says about your first Ironman. First one's the best because you don't know how bad it's gonna hurt. Like you can't even imagine. And it was the same thing with Ultraman for me. I mean, and, and I think part of it is that I really overlooked, like I, in my mind, day one was gonna be super hard. I had done the swim in training and I had done the first stage of the bike in training and I found that ride to be quite difficult. But I had not seen the second day bike. And I thought, and I knew it was like relatively a lot less climbing than day one.

• 1:19:02Speaker 02

  And I thought, 170 miles on the bike, just biking, eh, like, I knew, I knew double marathon to be super hard. I knew that too. But day two, I just couldn't. I guess I just couldn't picture what it was going to be like. And since it was just riding and not that hilly, I thought I totally overlooked that day. And that was a day that absolutely crushed me.

• 1:19:21Rich Roll?

  Right. And yeah, I mean, it's windy and there, there's not a lot of like long climbs, but there's all this, all these rollers, you know, and when you got a headwind, that starts to beat you up. And when you got a headwind and you can't see anybody in front of you or behind you, then you start, you know, that's when the head games start.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I had no idea was it's, that was it. I mean, I always tell people it's, you have to constantly remind yourself that you're in a race because you don't see anyone and the roads are open. So you're like, oh, I'm just on this ride. What am I doing?

• 1:19:51Rich Roll?

  I'm doing a grand fondo.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:19:55Rich Roll?

  For me, the, the first day bike was a lot harder. I mean, the first time I did it was a lot harder than I expected.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:20:03Rich Roll?

  I hadn't ridden it before, but I drove it. But when you're driving up the volcano, it doesn't look like you're really climbing that much. And I thought, oh, this will be, you know, I got the swim down, no problem. And this ride doesn't look all that bad. And I completely underestimated that stage because that last 20 miles is so intense.

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  So slow.

• 1:20:22Rich Roll?

  I know. You're going so, you feel like you're riding backwards.

• 1:20:26Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:20:26Rich Roll?

  I remember one, what happened to me in 2009, I, and I didn't tell this story in the book, I don't think. So I had all these buddies that were going to crew for me, right? And, and then of course it's Thanksgiving weekend and then they slowly realized like, oh, they're not going to be able to make it, right? So like a week before Ultraman, I had no crew.

• 1:20:48Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 1:20:48Rich Roll?

  And I go, all right, well, I guess I'm going to have to, my wife and my two teenage boys, who weren't even teenagers then, are going to be my crew, right? And they didn't, they don't know anything. They don't know anything about triathlon or bikes or anything. And not only that, They weren't arriving in Hawaii until like six o'clock the night before day one. So they missed the, the, um, the briefing, you know, where they go over the whole course and all the rules and all that kind of stuff. So, and they didn't know the big island. They didn't know anything, right? So they fly in and I'm, I sit them down on the condo and I was like, all right, you're not, don't say a word for two hours. I'm going to tell you everything you need to know. And I'm literally panicked, you know, like, I'm like, this is going to be an absolute disaster.

• 1:21:30Rich Roll?

  So anyway, um, you know, we're out on the course. I got out of the swim first and I ride off and I'm in the lead and I'm just looking behind me the whole time, wondering when Ribero is going to like pass me. Right. I'm like, it's any minute now, you know, like, like there's no way I'm going to hold this lead for, and I'm constantly looking behind me. I make it all the way to the, to, you know, I'm like a quarter of the way up the volcano climb and I haven't seen another athlete all day. And I'm telling my wife, like, you know, what's my gap? Like how, you know, what is, what's the gap? And she doesn't even know what I'm talking about. She's like, I don't know. And then the, the photographer cars start pulling up, right? As you start getting close to the day and they're, it's like Rick Kent and they're taking pictures. And I'm like, Rick, you know, like, how far, how

• 1:22:13Rich Roll?

  far back is the next guy? And, uh, you know, first it was five minutes, then it was one minute, then it was 10 minutes. Like I never got, I never, yeah, I got like, I got a different answer every time. So I'm just, you know, I'm like, I have all this anxiety. And finally I turn around and I see down the climb, there's a cyclist and I'm like, it's over. You know, like that, that glory moment that I thought I was going to have is being dashed. And, and every time I look behind, he's like a hundred yards closer. Like this guy's gaining on me fast, but I can't tell who it is until he's like right on me. And I'm like, all right, well, there's nothing I can do. I can't go any harder than four miles an hour, or whatever it is. And I'm climbing up this hill and, and he rides right up to me and I don't recognize him. And he's like, hey, man, how's it going? Like,

• 1:22:57Rich Roll?

  he's all fresh. And I realized like, this guy's not even in the race. No way. He's some guy who just decided he wanted to go out and climb volcano that day. I mean, a decent cyclist, but he just started at the bottom of the hill. And I'm like, Dude, I'm in the middle of a race right now. And he's like, oh, okay. Hey, I think you're doing pretty good. And he wants to like, have a conversation with me. And I'm like, listen, listen, man, like, I don't, you know, I don't want to get like a drafting penalty. So you either need to like fall behind or pull way ahead. And he's like, oh, okay. And he like pulls ahead. And my wife and boys are in the crew car like right ahead. And they're like, oh, no, he's getting passed. He's getting passed. And then he, they were pulled over on the side of the road. And then he pulls over and stops to talk to them. And they're like, what is that guy doing?

• 1:23:41Rich Roll?

  He's pulling, because I think he's in the race and he's pulling over to talk to them. But anyway, you know, I, I was able to hold, hold them off that day. But, but I remember how painful that day one climb is. It's just brutal.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  It is. I mean, and it's such slow going. And it is, it's such a, it's the, it's the head trip because it doesn't look like you're climbing up a volcano. It looks like maybe a false flat and you're going nowhere. And so, and I think, I feel like it's very, very often into a headwind, that whole stretch. And there's no escaping it because you're going in one direction. And so I was very glad that I had previewed that stage. I expected it to be hard as heck, but it was the second day that I grossly underestimated.

• 1:24:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And how did you approach the, the run?

• 1:24:25Speaker 02

  Um, the run, I, I definitely tried to pace myself. I mean, I remember the other girls. I mean, I was looking at my watch and granted, it was like slightly downhill in those first few miles, but I was looking and thinking they're running 330 marathon pace. This is ridiculous. So I consciously sort of held back to Kauai High, but then in Kauai High, that stupid like mile long uphill that takes you to the Queen K, um, is my nemesis on the bike and apparently now running as well. I mean, that hill.

• 1:25:05Speaker 02

  Absolutely sent me into a 20 mile, I kid you not, like valley. Like I was a mess for 20 miles. And so after that, it was pretty much just race management. Um, I happened to come out of it. I remember when I could, when I could see like Hualali and the Four Seasons, I had ridden that highway enough times that in my mind, Hualali is near home.

• 1:25:27Rich Roll?

  That's the thing. That's the mental thing that happens for people that are familiar with the Queen K and people that ride it all the time. When you've been running that long and you get to the Four Seasons, you think you're almost done.

• 1:25:38Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:25:39Rich Roll?

  And you are so wrong.

• 1:25:40Speaker 02

  Yep. But it was like, it was good because it was a delusion, but I convinced myself of this and the whole world is better. But it was literally like 20 miles of hell that preceded that. And, and I mean, my pace actually changed drastically there.

• 1:25:56Rich Roll?

  Well, you, you ended up killing it. Like the last section of that, you just threw this major hammer down.

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  I literally had to run in the very, very last, like four miles. I think I had to, and I don't know because I wasn't wearing a garment, but my pacers were. And apparently I had to run like 730 per mile for the last four miles because someone was out there and told me that, that it was a very, very close margin between Shanna Armstrong, who'd won it seven times and I for second place. I mean, first Amber had first place in the bag, but I had to basically crush it in the last four miles to, to come out overall ahead of Shanna. She was going to finish the double marathon ahead of me, but I had to run a certain pace in order to make up the time.

• 1:26:41Speaker 02

  Difference from the day before and all of that. So, so that's what I, that's what I did. And I mean, honestly, that, that pain that I experienced at the end of that race was, because I had to do that was, was really sort of unparalleled in my, my personal experience.

• 1:26:56Rich Roll?

  But just the fact that you were able to throw down that kind of pace at the end of that, I mean, that's extraordinary. I mean, cause usually once it goes south, like you can't recover and get to the other side of that. So the fact that you were able to kind of pull yourself out of that, you know, sort of, um, you know, train wreck or whatever was going on and come out the other side and start, you know?

• 1:27:18Rich Roll?

  Killing it like you were. That's amazing.

• 1:27:21Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know. I just, I guess, in part, it made me sort of question how I had paced the whole race in general because I kind of thought I shouldn't have this left and maybe I should have gone harder there. Maybe I should have gone harder there. And I don't know. That's why I want to, I want to go back and see if I can do things a little better.

• 1:27:39Rich Roll?

  You gotta go back. You have to. I'm gonna make you commit.

• 1:27:44Speaker 02

  Oh, so I would like to. Well, I mean, my name is down for this year and I am planning on it. And I reserve the right to change my mind until September. September is my commit date.

• 1:28:00Rich Roll?

  All right, everybody out there, you're gonna have to tweet Hillary and put the hurt on her to commit to doing this.

• 1:28:06Speaker 02

  But no, I mean, I would really love to do it. I'm planning on it. And as long as I am, I am still healthy and mentally fresh in September, then I absolutely want to. But it's just not something that I want to do it have strength.

• 1:28:21Rich Roll?

  Burnt out. Yeah.

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I felt like last time, physically, I was not sort of at my best. And, and I want, I really want to do it, like, do it right. So.

• 1:28:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, also, it was your first, just getting acquainted with what it's all about in the course. And now you know that. And, you know, and you could sort of prepare better. And oh, my God, you'd kill it. You gotta go back.

• 1:28:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would, I would like to. I would like to. So we'll see. It's on the plan.

• 1:28:49Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. Well, we have to talk about nutrition.

• 1:28:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:28:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah. We, it's, we're already like, an hour and 17 minutes into this, and we haven't even talked about, like, the diet stuff.

• 1:29:01Speaker 02

  I love it. Well, this is, this is what I love on your podcast, because I listen to Rich's podcast when I'm riding my bike. When I don't have a training partner, Rich is my training partner, and Julie.

• 1:29:11Rich Roll?

  I'll keep that in mind. I'll start giving you subliminal training messages.

• 1:29:17Speaker 02

  And it's good, because then I'll come home from my ride and. Like make my normal Vega shake and then make like carrot juice and like blend it up with some kale because I know that's what they would do. So I'm always extra motivated to eat even better after I listen. So it's good.

• 1:29:32Rich Roll?

  And we just before the podcast, I gave her a little bit of homemade kombucha that Julie made. It's pretty good, right?

• 1:29:37Speaker 02

  It was unbelievable. I thought it was better than GT's and flavor certainly was. It was.

• 1:29:42Rich Roll?

  I think that one was she put some grapefruit and mint.

• 1:29:46Speaker 02

  It was so sweet though. I don't know. That was interesting.

• 1:29:48Rich Roll?

  It's pretty tasty.

• 1:29:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:50Rich Roll?

  So, um, all right. So would you, would you consider yourself a plant-based athlete?

• 1:29:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:57Rich Roll?

  Where are you with like diet and nutrition and all that kind of stuff right now?

• 1:30:01Speaker 02

  I like plant-based. I have issues with sort of calling myself a vegan. So I always say aspiring vegan because I feel like, um, I feel like because like there was like some shredded cheese on my salad yesterday at Ruby's diner, God forbid. Um, I was meeting my old swim coach for lunch and that's where we've met for the last like 18 years. We've met always at Ruby's diner. He's 87. So I don't like to change.

• 1:30:28Rich Roll?

  You like your high school coach?

• 1:30:29Speaker 02

  Uh huh. My club team.

• 1:30:30Rich Roll?

  What, what club team?

• 1:30:31Speaker 02

  Golden West Swim Club, Huntington Beach. And, um, he's just one of my great mentors in sport. And, and so we always meet at Ruby's diner, but now there aren't a lot of options that I can meet at Ruby's diner. So I feel very sort of uncomfortable using the word vegan until I am like a hundred percent. I mean, you couldn't pay me enough to take a bite of like a chicken or a cow or any animal for that matter. But, um, like sometimes I have a little cheese or like I have a gluten-free bagel that has made with eggs. And so I haven't fully arrived. I aspire to fully arriving someday, but that's, that's where I am really.

• 1:31:06Rich Roll?

  Well, it's, you know, it's not about, you know, sort of being perfect, you know? I think it's about, it's, it's, it's aspirational. And that's why I think the word plant-based is great. You know, you're plant-based. You're not, you know, it's not plant-perfect.

• 1:31:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:31:23Rich Roll?

  Right? So how does this begin? I mean, how long have you been kind of eating this way?

• 1:31:29Speaker 02

  Um, it's been four years now. 2000, like the spring of 2009. I read The Food Revolution and well, I mean, it wasn't entirely the book. I had a couple of friends who were, were, had gone vegan because of that book and other sort of influences. And after really spending enough time with them and then reading the literature, I, I mean, I hadn't even finished the book and I was just like, no, I can't eat an animal again. Um, I mean, all that said, when I was a teenager, I was in the ecology club at school and we like sent letters like to the congressmen and stuff about animal rights

• 1:32:11Speaker 02

  and like environmental issues. And, and I was a vegetarian for a time like at that age. So I always sort of, and I remember getting my little sister like a membership to PETA for Christmas. Like that was like a thing. I mean, I was, I was, I've always sort of like had those leanings.

• 1:32:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, attuned to this issue for a long time.

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and but ultimately, like as a teenager, what got me back to eating a turkey sandwich was that I was convinced by myself and my parents and whoever that I would swim faster if I ate meat. So that was ultimately why I, I went back to it. And so it was for me a decision four years ago because I wasn't entirely convinced that I could maintain my level of performance and, and take meat, meat out. And, but for me at that time, what it came down to was like, I was willing to sacrifice that. That, that if that's really what it cost me, it still wasn't worth it for me like ethically to eat animals anymore.

• 1:33:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:33:11Rich Roll?

  And were you under, under Brett Sutton at this time?

• 1:33:14Speaker 02

  I had left. No, he would have flipped out.

• 1:33:15Rich Roll?

  I was gonna say, what did that conversation look like?

• 1:33:17Speaker 02

  No, I was then on my own. So I was free to make that decision, but that wouldn't have gone over well in that program for sure. Um.

• 1:33:26Rich Roll?

  I think that, um, that it's really common and I've battled with this mentally also, uh, this idea of sacrificing performance to eat this way. And I think that in my own personal case, I've.

• 1:33:44Rich Roll?

  I've far exceeded anything that I ever thought I was capable of doing. And in my mind, it's attributable to eating this way.

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:33:52Rich Roll?

  It's not like the eating this way. If I hadn't started eating this way, I never would have embarked on this journey that led to all of this craziness anyway. So how could I possibly say that that was a hindrance?

• 1:34:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:34:03Rich Roll?

  It's certainly been a facilitator. But even then, in the back of my mind, it's like, oh, I wonder, you know, if I had eaten like a little bit of meat, would I have been better? Like, even though I read all these studies and I'm convinced that this has repaired my health and allows me to recover more quickly and train efficiently. There's still like that little like nugget of doubt because your whole life, you're told, you know, you need to eat this to be strong. And overcoming that, even in the face of, you know, all this sort of evidence to the contrary is very difficult. So, and this is your job, you know, this is your profession. You're making a living off your performance.

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:34:42Rich Roll?

  So to sort of take a flyer, I guess, so to speak on this is a bold move.

• 1:34:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it was, you know, now, really with these like last couple of races that we talked about at the beginning of this interview. I have, one of the major sort of things that I proved to myself was I can be faster without animal products. And it's, but it took me a long time to get it dialed. And I think, I think I would be even better if I was 100% vegan, I really do. It's just a matter of me having the discipline, like socially and whatnot to say like, well, I'm just not eating. Or I'm like, I don't know, because there's no options for me here, whatever it is, or spending more time pre-making foods that I don't get into that predicament.

• 1:35:30Speaker 02

  But, but it took me, I do think my performance suffered for probably two years at least.

• 1:35:38Rich Roll?

  As you're trying to figure it out.

• 1:35:40Speaker 02

  Things out, for sure.

• 1:35:40Rich Roll?

  And what do you, what do you think some of those learning curves were, mistakes that you made?

• 1:35:44Speaker 02

  The big, huge thing, and this is why I say I wasn't at full strength at Ultraman, end of 2010. So that was then almost two years into this project, was

• 1:35:55Speaker 02

  I I've never like loved meat, I think because it's always sort of freaked me out where it came from. I mean, I never liked thinking about that I was eating an animal. So I was never a huge meat eater, but what I I did eat a ton of dairy. So lunch would be like cottage cheese and yogurt. Or I mean, when I was living in Switzerland, I would have like half a liter of milk every day.

• 1:36:18Speaker 02

  So I ate a ton of dairy products. And when I cut that out, I added in a whole lot more, you know, bread products.

• 1:36:30Rich Roll?

  Right. So you're eating like poor nutrient, like nutrient poor, high carb foods.

• 1:36:38Speaker 02

  You know, sandwiches and muffins and whatever. And I think I'd gone from a very like low gluten diet previously. Mostly because Brett Sutton basically didn't allow me to eat bread. So I I wouldn't really eat it, but maybe once a week. And then I ate a lot of salad and and meat and cottage cheese and yogurt. So when I cut that stuff out, I ended up eating a lot more bread products. And got myself to a point by the middle of 2010 that, I mean, my body was, I I got so over tired. And that my, I mean, I got to a point where I could hardly run.

• 1:37:21Speaker 02

  I remember in the summer of 2010, being in training camp in Hawaii on the track, running 800s. Could not run faster than like four minutes for a half mile. Couldn't do it. My legs, like my, everything was shutting down. I had insomnia, like I was a complete mess. Couldn't figure out, I mean, had like every test you could imagine. And and figured out that I was like nutrient, you know, sort of vitamin and mineral. Had all these vitamin and mineral deficiencies, but didn't know like what that was coming from.

• 1:37:53Speaker 02

  And fast forward all the way into 2011 was still, I went, went through, I remember the month before Iron Man Brazil, I think I slept like only every second night.

• 1:38:02Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:38:03Speaker 02

  I was exhibiting all these sort of classic signs of overtraining, but yet I was looking at my program going, I know this is not too much.

• 1:38:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:38:10Speaker 02

  It was something, my body wasn't adapting and um, anyways, I, after all these tests and whatever, I ended up just on my own saying, well, heck, I'm just gonna stop eating gluten and see what happens. And um, it was life-changing.

• 1:38:23Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:38:24Speaker 02

  So, I mean, within about 10 days of stopping eating gluten, I could sleep again. And I would say it was about two months till I felt like normal, but that, I mean, one of the things I learned is that all these like fake meat products that I was eating are like made primarily of vital wheat gluten, so.

• 1:38:42Rich Roll?

  Oh yeah, it's what makes them all stick together.

• 1:38:44Speaker 02

  Right, it's not just bread, it was, there was bread, but then there were all the fake meat things that I was eating as a substitute and those, so I was basically just, my daily diet was like a festival of gluten, which was like poisoning me.

• 1:38:55Rich Roll?

  Right, well, it's, I'm glad that you figured that out.

• 1:38:57Speaker 02

  So, yeah, it was a long process. And so it wasn't the lack of animal products that was, that was compromising my performance, but it was all the other crap that I was adding in.

• 1:39:06Rich Roll?

  Right, and I think, you know, I've heard Brendan Brazer talk about this as well, like when he was first playing around with a plant-based diet, and I think that's a natural kind of inclination, like, okay, I'm not eating dairy, I'm not eating meat, like, what can I eat? You start, you start pigging out on all these high carb processed foods, like pastas and, and the like, lots of white breads, processed, you know, processed wheat products, and they're high in calories, they're high in carbohydrates, but there's no, there's nothing, you're not, you're not fortifying your body, you're not getting any nutrients out of that. So what happens is, you have all the gluten, which in some people, in a lot of people, a lot of people that don't even know, like yourself, produces an inflammatory response

• 1:39:49Rich Roll?

  that impedes your body's ability to recover, you start to get tired, you feel like you're overtrained, even though your program's not any different than it ever has been. Um, and your body's starving and you, you start to overeat because your body signals you to eat more and more and more, because it's, you may be getting all these calories, but it's not getting what it actually needs to heal itself and kind of fire on all cylinders.

• 1:40:11Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah, it's, it was, um, it was, it was bad.

• 1:40:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:17Speaker 02

  But now, I mean, I think-

• 1:40:18Rich Roll?

  And it would have been easy to just go, "Well, this plant-based eating is not working."

• 1:40:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:40:22Rich Roll?

  Like, "I gotta go back to eating dairy and meat."

• 1:40:24Speaker 02

  Right. And I, and believe me, I heard that from everyone and their brother. And, I mean, just kind of my standard response is, I mean, it's just been, if that's the price of not eating animals, that's the price. I mean, that's sort of, that's just, that's my thing. I just, I can't, I couldn't, even if, I mean, and for a long time, I thought that's, that was probably what was happening, that everyone was right and, and-

• 1:40:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:40:49Speaker 02

  And that was the price of, of not eating meat. But, um, I had just made a decision that that was it. Like, it just didn't seem right to me that, um, that, you know, we have, we have a puppy at home and, and the puppy is part of the family, but then that cow over there, that's dinner on my plate. Like, it doesn't like, what's the difference? Like, who decided that? Right? Like, it just didn't, that doesn't make sense in my head anymore.

• 1:41:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's a, there's a disconnect there. We just had, I don't know if you listened, I just put up the other day, an interview with Gene Bauer from Farm Sanctuary.

• 1:41:23Speaker 02

  Oh, I need to listen to this.

• 1:41:24Rich Roll?

  Have you, do you know him? Have you ever met him?

• 1:41:26Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:41:26Rich Roll?

  He's wonderful. He's a, he's a fantastic guy. It's, and he's the first, um, kind of animal rights activist person that I've had on the program. And, uh, he was great. I mean, you know, it's so, we talked about, I, I don't want to be repetitive about what we talked about on the other show, but, but, you know, one of the things we talked about was that our system is set up to prevent us from making that emotional connection to the cow.

• 1:41:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:41:51Rich Roll?

  You know, it's sort of like, yeah, we love our puppy, but, you know, we're, it's completely, uh, rigged so that we don't see all the kind of steps along the way from the cow. You know what happens to the cow to bring it to your plate? Like, we're insulated from that by, you know, there's a, there's a very, um, intentional calculus that goes into maintaining that. Because otherwise, um, and as Gene aptly put, like, we're all compassionate people. We all have that capacity. And if we're, if we were more connected to that and we could actually see what was going on, then I think a lot of people would make a different choice. But we just don't see that. Or, or we make the choice not to, because we know if we look at it, then it'll be, it'll create like this dissonance-

• 1:42:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:42:33Rich Roll?

  in how we're living our life. And that dissonance leads to anxiety and then, you know, all sorts of things can come from that, right?

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  Yep, yep. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. My mom and I were having this conversation last night about bacon, how bacon is this trendy thing now. It's like

• 1:42:51Rich Roll?

  Well, because of this whole paleo thing that's going on right now.

• 1:42:54Speaker 02

  Is that what started it?

• 1:42:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that's a big part of it.

• 1:42:57Speaker 02

  My postwoman back home in Tucson, next to her little cubicle, has a bacon calendar. It's like, it was this trendy, like, thing that, I mean, and all I can think about when people talk about bacon is this video I watched recently of these, like, little piglets that aren't big enough for whatever standard they're being, and they're just being thrown into this giant, like, trash can chopping thing. And like, I can, that's the only picture that comes in my head when people talk about bacon. And I'm like, I wish they could have this picture, too, when they're ordering bacon. Because that's all I can think about is that little piglet.

• 1:43:29Rich Roll?

  Right. It's such a tricky thing when you start talking about animal rights, because every, you know, there's a lot of people that have an association in their mind with the angry animal rights activist person, and they don't want anything to do with that person. And so as soon as the subject gets raised, it's like, oh, no, you know, here we go again, you know? Or that idea of, you know, feeling like they're being attacked, or that somebody is talking down to them, or from high on top of pedestal, or what have you. And I've been doing a lot of thinking about that. And I think that, you know, and this is just my opinion, but, you know, when you see somebody who's an ardent animal rights activist, and they are kind of angry, you know, it's like, I've been thinking about,

• 1:44:14Rich Roll?

  like, why, why are they so angry? Don't they know that if they approached people from a different, in a different way, that maybe it would be more beneficial to the message that they're trying to promote? But I think that there are certain people that come out of the womb, like, highly sensitive to these issues. They're just wired that way from the moment they're born, and they see the world that way. Like, they, they can see that injustice, or that disconnect, and they're deeply emotionally affected by that, for whatever reason.

• 1:44:48Rich Roll?

  But the people around them aren't. And so years and years and years of them seeing the world differently than other people becomes frustrating.

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:44:57Rich Roll?

  And that frustration inevitably is going to turn into anger over time.

• 1:45:01Speaker 02

  That's interesting, yeah.

• 1:45:02Rich Roll?

  Because people aren't seeing it the way they're seeing it. And they're trying to say, "Don't you see this?" And people are like, "No," you know, like, "Get a life, get over it,"

• 1:45:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:45:08Rich Roll?

  or whatever. And then, of course, you're gonna get angry.

• 1:45:10Speaker 02

  Right, right. That's so interesting. Yeah.

• 1:45:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, and I, I struggle with that too, because

• 1:45:20Speaker 02

  it has started to sort of be so sort of glaringly obvious to me as well. And, and I, I try to

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  not, not get angry and not sort of take that stand, I mean, stand in that way, because, I mean, my family, I mean, I was raised in a family that's so completely the other way. And, and I, and I, so I can see that other perspective. And, and I understand that it has to be like baby steps to get people to, to understand the consequences of what they're, what they're consuming and...

• 1:45:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think it's changing because, you know, now sort of people's eyes are opening up to, you know, to things that Monsanto is doing. And, you know, what's going on at these factory farms? And there are these documentaries that are kind of pulling the covers on what's happening. And even if you're not an animal rights activist, and you see the way that, that, that, you know, factory farmed animals are treated, you know, you can even take away the idea of whether it's wrong or, or right or justified to eat animals. But just look at how they're treated in the factory farm context.

• 1:46:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:46:30Rich Roll?

  And I think most people can kind of get on board with the idea that there's something amiss with that. And, you know, my opinions and perspective on this continue to evolve, you know? I mean, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't start eating this way because, because of that sensitivity. I did it for extremely selfish reasons.

• 1:46:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:46:48Rich Roll?

  You know, I did it for myself, for health. And, but it's impossible to, you know, as I continue to walk this path, and I learn more, and I read more, and I watch documentaries. And, and the more I read, and the more I see, and the more people I talk to, it's, it's like, no, this is like a big thing. Like, we gotta talk about this.

• 1:47:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:47:07Rich Roll?

  So, and I didn't expect to kind of step into that perspective, you know?

• 1:47:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:13Rich Roll?

  And I certainly am not standing on any moral high ground with it whatsoever.

• 1:47:18Speaker 02

  No, it's just.

• 1:47:21Speaker 02

  People are open to listening, then that's great.

• 1:47:24Rich Roll?

  Right, well, you know, we'll see what happens.

• 1:47:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:29Rich Roll?

  All right, but like redirecting back to the, I'm gonna get hate mail if I don't ask you like what you eat. What you eat in, what you eat in training and what you eat on the bike, like what do you put, what do you put in those bottles on your bike? Like, what are you eating now that you seem to have figured it out? I mean, look, you know, you went through that issue. We didn't really kind of, you know, cap that story, but you just got back from Brazil. It was like your second fastest Ironman ever.

• 1:47:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:54Rich Roll?

  Right? I mean, you were, place wise, you've done better, but time, you know, your fastest Ironman Brazil. And like, I think your second fastest in Ironman, the only time you ever went faster was at.

• 1:48:04Speaker 02

  Like in Challenge Road in 2008.

• 1:48:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and that's like a super fast course, right? So, you know, it's obviously clicking for you now.

• 1:48:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:12Rich Roll?

  So, you know, what is a, what is a typical day in food look like for you?

• 1:48:16Speaker 02

  Typical day in food would be for breakfast in the morning. Well, we'll usually have like a pre-swim breakfast, which is coffee and then

• 1:48:30Speaker 02

  some like gluten-free vegan toast with peanut butter on it, that kind of situation. And then after a swim workout, we'll get back and have like breakfast number two, which is typically something like gluten-free oats made with almond milk and cooked with bananas. Dump a bunch of peanut butter and honey on those. And stir in some brown rice protein powder. That's a key. That's, that's breakfast number two. Lunch is typically something like a, I make corn quesadillas with Daya, which is my go-to and avocado.

• 1:49:10Speaker 02

  Like beans, maybe something like that, or a leftover from the night before's dinner, which is typically like a quinoa or rice dish with vegetables. Dinner, my husband usually does like a big, everything but the kitchen sink salad. And yeah, like a rice or quinoa dish. If we get really fancy, he makes us like homemade, amazing gluten-free pizza. We do like barbecue tofu pizza. Picture your barbecue chicken pizza, but like homemade with tofu or tempeh, something like that. That's, that's a typical day. When I'm training, I eat a lot of nut bars, like Kind bars, that kind of thing. And

• 1:49:53Rich Roll?

  What do you put in the bottles?

• 1:49:55Speaker 02

  Um, in the bottles, I put sports drink, um, like this power bar perform. And in the race, I don't eat any solid foods. I take in like just over 2,000 calories of liquid fuel on the bike, just super concentrated sports drink, two bottles for one Ironman, roughly a thousand calories a bottle. And on the run, I'm just taking gels and maybe drinking some Coke.

• 1:50:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:50:21Speaker 02

  Super simple. I can't chew and go hard at the same time.

• 1:50:24Rich Roll?

  So, um, yeah, I mean, that's, that's pretty standard Ironman pro triathlete fare.

• 1:50:30Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:50:31Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:50:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:50:33Rich Roll?

  You hear a lot about, you know, the, the guy who's like, I was doing great. And then, you know, 10 miles into the run, I started throwing up. Like, I don't know what happened.

• 1:50:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:50:42Rich Roll?

  You know, that's a real common

• 1:50:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:50:44Rich Roll?

  story that you hear. I mean, what is your, without, obviously that's an individual thing. There's a million reasons why that could be happening. But if you had to pick like a general reason why that might be happening to a lot of people out there?

• 1:50:57Speaker 02

  Well, that's funny. I have this happen all the time with, you know, athletes that we work with, whatever, that we're always, we're troubleshooting things like that, like this. And there are a couple of things at play, um, that I always try to establish. And, and one is, Does the athlete have an understanding of what is a normal level of stomach distress in endurance event? I mean, I honestly think that a certain amount of like vomiting or stomach cramping or whatever is normal. And I think it's something you have to deal with. And so I don't think it's a, I think that there are a lot of people who maybe come into this sport and think that the minute you start puking, your race is over.

• 1:51:40Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I've seen videos of Natasha Badman like projectile vomiting on a Lee Drive and winning the Hawaii Ironman. I feel like people need to watch that, you know? So I think that first I try to determine like, is it just a normal and manageable amount of vomit and like stomach problems? Or do we have a legit issue? And if it's a legit issue, well, it could be any number of things. I think that people, people under fuel and people, I mean, that may not cause vomiting, but people very uncommonly over fuel, but perhaps, perhaps over fuel because they've

• 1:52:22Speaker 02

  under fueled the first half of the race and then their body rejects it. Or don't practice their race fueling, either the products they use in the race or the amount they're going to try to take in in the race. I see that more so with women who are sort of watching calories, trying to, almost trying to diet during their training and then on race day they want to take in 300 calories an hour, that's not going to fly. Of course, you're going to be puking.

• 1:52:45Rich Roll?

  Right, right. Cause you haven't been doing it in training.

• 1:52:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:52:49Rich Roll?

  You're trying to lose weight on the bike as opposed to training responsibly.

• 1:52:53Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:52:54Rich Roll?

  Fueling responsibly during training.

• 1:52:55Speaker 02

  Exactly. So I see that. And then sometimes I just see what I consider to be people making the wrong choices and what fuel, what kind of fuel they're using. And that's, that'll make people sick.

• 1:53:06Rich Roll?

  I mean, I think, I have a theory. I'm interested in what you think about this. You know, when I look at somebody like yourself or, or other, you know, successful professional triathletes, professional Ironman, when you're racing, you are basically at a, an output level that As far in excess of what the typical amateur Ironman athlete is putting out, not just in terms of watts, but in terms of how close you are to your anaerobic threshold.

• 1:53:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:38Rich Roll?

  So you are in an anaerobic state for a much longer period of time. The average, the average, you know, sort of, um, Ironman who's doing his first or third or second one, but is not like contending is going to be much more in an aerobic, like zone two, high zone two, lows, low zone three state for most of that day. And they're out there for many more hours than you are. I mean, you guys are absolutely pinning it. You're trying to find that, that like razor's edge of what you're going to be able to sustain for nine hours.

• 1:54:09Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:54:10Rich Roll?

  Right? So that requires a different kind of fueling approach than somebody who's going to be in their kind of more fat burning state.

• 1:54:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:20Rich Roll?

  Throughout the day. So somebody who is in a more fat burning state, if they're just hammering gels all day and all this sugar, they're confusing their body because their body actually would be much more efficiently running on a different kind of fuel. And, and when then you're putting all that glycogen in there, you're sort of, that's what you do when you want to be in that anaerobic state, when you're burning glycogen at a high level. And I think that that sometimes can lead to some of those issues.

• 1:54:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, that's a good point. Absolutely. That is a good point. And.

• 1:54:49Rich Roll?

  Cause people will say, well, they want to know what you put in, what you're, what you're eating, but you know, it doesn't necessarily apply.

• 1:54:55Speaker 02

  It's not relevant if you're doing 16 hours. Yeah, I get that. I totally get that. And I mean, to be fair, when I did my first Ironman in 12 and a half hours, I was eating PB and Js.

• 1:55:05Rich Roll?

  Right? Yeah. And if you're, if you're a 12 hour, 14 hour Ironman, yeah, then maybe you're at a pace where, you know, actually eating real food during the race might work.

• 1:55:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:55:14Rich Roll?

  But when you're pinning it like you, you're not going to be able to digest that kind of thing. You have to be liquid in gel all day.

• 1:55:20Speaker 02

  Right. Right. Yeah. I mean.

• 1:55:22Rich Roll?

  You wouldn't be able to, I mean, can you imagine eating a sandwich?

• 1:55:24Speaker 02

  Like, no, but some pros do eat bars on the bike. For me, it's just like, it's simply a matter of. Like I have enough breathing issues. Like I have asthma and my nose is perpetually like not all clear. So I can't chew and breathe. So I just can't do it. But um, forget about digestion. I just can't, I can't, I don't have time to chew it up. Um, I don't know. Some pros can actually chew things, which is, but, but it is, it's more of a bar. It's not like a sandwich.

• 1:55:51Rich Roll?

  Right. But I think the real takeaway is you have to take responsive, every athlete has to take responsibility for what that looks like for them. And you have to use your training to figure that out. Like, you know, how many years did it take you to figure out, you know, what exactly you needed to put in those bottles and how frequently you needed to take a hit off it, you know, and you figured that out over years of training and racing, right?

• 1:56:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, like six or seven years.

• 1:56:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And that's self experimentation. That's not like, hey, so and so's doing that. So I'm going to try that.

• 1:56:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:56:17Rich Roll?

  You know, you gotta own it for yourself, I think.

• 1:56:19Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, it is. It's individual and there's a lot of experimentation involved.

• 1:56:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:56:24Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:56:25Rich Roll?

  All right. We gotta wrap this up, man. What time is it? Oh, my God. We've gone like an hour and 45 minutes here. I'm gonna break a record. Um, all right. Well, what's, what's next for you?

• 1:56:36Speaker 02

  Next up is Ironman Austria, which is in two, holy cow, it's in two and a half weeks.

• 1:56:41Rich Roll?

  Two and a half weeks.

• 1:56:42Speaker 02

  Not long.

• 1:56:43Rich Roll?

  Right. That's pretty soon. That's quite a, so how many weeks from Brazil will that be?

• 1:56:48Speaker 02

  That'll be four weeks, four weeks after Brazil.

• 1:56:52Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:56:52Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:56:53Rich Roll?

  So what does your training look like right now?

• 1:56:55Speaker 02

  Training looks like it's pretty big. We're cramming in. Yeah, it's a couple of, add two pretty easy weeks after Brazil or a week and a half, pretty easy, I should say. Um, so basically a week and a half easy, two big weeks, and then we'll rest a couple days before the race.

• 1:57:11Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:57:12Speaker 02

  So it's, I've got, I've got 20 plus miles on the track tomorrow morning. So

• 1:57:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:17Speaker 02

  That'll be special.

• 1:57:18Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, good. Well, uh, and then what, and what's after that? You don't know yet?

• 1:57:23Speaker 02

  Um, Ironman Lake Placid, which will be four weeks after that.

• 1:57:26Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:57:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:57:28Rich Roll?

  God dang, girl. Amazing. All right. Well, I'm gonna let you go so you can get back down home. But um, thanks so much.

• 1:57:35Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm so honored.

• 1:57:38Rich Roll?

  No, this is super awesome. People are gonna dig it.

• 1:57:41Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:57:41Rich Roll?

  For uh, people that wanna connect with Hillary and find out more about what she's doing, they can go to your website, hillarybiskey.com, two L's, right?

• 1:57:52Rich Roll?

  B I S C A Y

• 1:57:54Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:57:54Rich Roll?

  dot com and you're Hillary Bisque on Twitter. And if you want to check out her killer schwag, her tri-kits and her attire, go to SmashFestQueen.com, right?

• 1:58:06Speaker 02

  Yes, thank you.

• 1:58:07Rich Roll?

  And is there any, any other places where you want people to connect with what you're up to? You gotta read her blog.

• 1:58:14Speaker 02

  Yes, I guess that's, my blog is my, my big project. I've been, it's been a bit rough the past few months with the new clothing business on, on, on tap, but I try to keep it updated.

• 1:58:24Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. All right, I think we're done.

• 1:58:27Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:58:28Rich Roll?

  How do you feel?

• 1:58:29Speaker 02

  Good.

• 1:58:30Rich Roll?

  Do we talk enough about, anything else you want to talk about?

• 1:58:32Speaker 02

  We're good.

• 1:58:33Rich Roll?

  All right, I feel pretty good. You're sweaty? Yeah, it's hot in here. All right, we'll get out of here. All right, everybody, peace. Plants.

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