I Ranked Every Vibe Coding App (Cursor vs Claude Code vs Lovable)

Micky and I rank the top vibe coding apps in 2025, from Cursor and Claude Code to Lovable, V0, Bolt, Windsurf, and emerging mobile-focused platforms. They break down which tools work best for technical developers versus non-technical builders, discuss the trust and ecosystem factors that matter when choosing a platform, and share hard-won lessons about the mindset shift required to build software with AI assistance. Timestamps 00:00 – Intro 01:11 – Windsurf 03:46 – Cursor 06:33 – Lovable, v0, Bolt 10:17 – Mobile vibe coding: Rork, VibeCode App, Anything 15:04 – Codex 16:52 – Claude Code 18:28 – Replit 20:23 – Chef by Convex 21:39 – Advice for Vibe Coders Key Points Community size and tutorial availability matter as much as technical capability when choosing a vibe coding platform For technical developers, Cursor and Claude Code dominate; for non-technical builders, V0 offers the best balance of power and accessibility Mobile vibe coding platforms (Rourke, Vibe Code App, Anything) represent a new wave of opportunity, especially for consumer apps monetizing through TikTok discovery Non-technical builders need a mindset shift: building real software takes time, testing, and iteration—not five prompts Betting on a platform means betting on the team and founder behind it; follow their vision to choose the right tool The #1 tool to find startup ideas/trends - https://www.ideabrowser.com LCA helps Fortune 500s and fast-growing startups build their future - from Warner Music to Fortnite to Dropbox. We turn 'what if' into reality with AI, apps, and next-gen products https://latecheckout.agency/ Boringmarketing - Vibe Marketing for Companies: boringmarketing.com The Vibe Marketer - Join the Community and Learn: thevibemarketer.com Startup Empire - get your free builders toolkit to build cashflowing business - https://startup-ideas-pod.link/startup-empire-toolkit Become a member - https://startup-ideas-pod.link/startup-empire FIND ME ON SOCIAL X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregisenberg Instagram: https://instagram.com/gregisenberg/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gisenberg/ FIND MIC ON SOCIAL X/Twitter: https://x.com/rasmickyy Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@rasmic

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Greg Isenberg?

  Mickey, by the end of this episode, what are we gonna learn?

• 0:03Speaker 01

  We're going to know what's the best, what's the worst, what to use, what not to use. And this is just our non-professional professional opinion.

• 0:10Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, so this is the definitive guide to vibe coding apps, right?

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Yes, this is the ultimate tier list. And if this offends you, I apologize in advance.

• 0:28Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, any disclosures? Are you involved in any of these companies?

• 0:34Greg Isenberg?

  Wait, wait to the end.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  I'm actually, no, I'm not an investor in any.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  I do have a bias, but I'll explain later, the bias as we go on.

• 0:44Greg Isenberg?

  Sounds good. I invested in Bolt in the last round.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Actually, funny story, I had the opportunity to invest in Lovable.

• 0:50Greg Isenberg?

  We both did.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but they hit me at a time where it's like I never had done, I still haven't, but like, I was like, I don't know what this is. Vibe coding and then, yeah, they raised what? Some hundred billion at a $6 billion, $2 billion valuation, so.

• 1:05Greg Isenberg?

  Crazy.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you win some, you lose some.

• 1:07Greg Isenberg?

  All right, so let's get into it.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Okay, so. Lovable, V0, Bolt, Claude Code, Cursor, Codex, Windsurf, Vibe Code, Rourke. Let's just hit right out the hip. What's D tier?

• 1:21Greg Isenberg?

  I mean. I see, I see you touching Windsurf.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Okay, so I don't think Windsurf is D tier in terms of like tech. But with what happened with the team and like the founder sort of dipping and then Devin came, scooped them up. It's one of those where like, I'm sure the tech's good, but like, is there any trust anymore? And I know two guys who work at Windsurf, awesome dudes, but I probably would never use Windsurf ever again. And respectfully, in the kindness of fashion, I would put it D tier.

• 1:53Greg Isenberg?

  By the way, all these tools are amazing.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're great. They do, you know, like again, this is our non-professional professional opinion, right? I just personally wouldn't use Windsurf, uh, simply for the fact that like, again, you know, you, you're sort of trusting the team behind said tool you're building with, right? And when, I mean, you're a founder, like, imagine just upping and leaving, like, the type of confidence that instills with your users, investors, and all that type of stuff. So, yeah, I would respectfully, uh, put Windsurf at D tier.

• 2:24Greg Isenberg?

  It's also very technical.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. So, and that's one thing too, right? We have this chart here, and I would put Windsurf at a very technical, like, you would have to be a technical person to get the best out of it. Now you have people who, like Riley and others, who are, you know, using these technical tools, but if you speak to the team at Windsurf or even Cursor, they'll tell you, yeah, we're building for developers, right? Their focus is developers. I actually spoke to someone who works at Cursor, and I told him, like, you know, a lot of, like, non-technical people are using your tool, so is that, like, changing how you guys build and, like, is that, like, sort of, you know, affecting your decisions? And he straight up was like, no. He's like, we're building for developers. He's like,

• 3:08Speaker 01

  it's cool to see non-developers use it, but the main demographic is developers, and from a team perspective and a business perspective, it makes sense, right? So, you could do it, but I just wouldn't use Windsurf. So I put it at D tier.

• 3:21Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, so you're, you're putting it D tier just because of the, sort of, how it played out?

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, realistically, I would maybe, it would be between an A and a B for me.

• 3:30Greg Isenberg?

  Right.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Because I used to, I used Windsurf for a bit. It was pretty cool. And if, based on how it was back then, if I were to rate it, it'd be between A and a B.

• 3:39Greg Isenberg?

  Okay.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  So, but with all the business stuff, putting it?

• 3:42Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah, I'm putting it in a D just because it's pretty complicated.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Okay, well, then, let's talk about another complicated tool, Cursor.

• 3:49Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, I mean, to me, okay, I'll do this one. To me, I'm gonna give it...

• 3:56Greg Isenberg?

  It's either A tier or S tier for me.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Well, so first, let's define it on the chart. It's definitely like you have to be technical to use it, right? Like being able to even open it up and fork a repo and PM run and PM install. Like, these are like, I don't expect a non-technical person to use it. But, you know, if there's a will, there's a way. And I've seen people use it. So I agree, if you are a vibe coder and non-technical person, you're going to experience pain.

• 4:28Greg Isenberg?

  True, but what I will say about Cursor versus WinSurf, there's a lot more tutorials on Cursor, so.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  And that's one thing like, so.

• 4:38Greg Isenberg?

  And a bigger community around Cursor.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Fair, and I'll give you an example. In like the web dev world, like there are people who are pro NextJS and anti NextJS. And one of the biggest pros to NextJS, you know, people can argue technicalities, is the community, right? Especially even with React, like, let's go one level down, React. There are people who love React, who hate React. And the reason React's one is because the community is so huge, right? So there's a lot of support, there's a lot of documentation, there are a lot of external packages. That's why you go to any of these tools and you ask it, "Make me a website", it's going to use React, right? Even the LLMs have picked it, right? So I think that matters. And for the audience's sake, I'll give Cursor an A tier. I can agree with that. But to me, this is like S++.

• 5:25Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, cool. Sam Altman, the co-founder of OpenAI, just said that it is the era of the idea guy, and he is not wrong. I think that right now is an incredible time to be building a startup. And if you listen to this podcast, chances are you think so too. Now, I think that you can look at trends to basically figure out what are the startup ideas you should be building? So that's exactly why I built idea browser.com. Every single day, you're going to get a free startup idea in your inbox, and it's all backed by high-quality data trends. How we do it, people always ask. We use AI agents to go and search. What are people looking for?

• 6:07Greg Isenberg?

  And what are they screaming for in terms of products that you should be building? And then we hand it on a silver platter for you to go check out. We do have a few paid plans that take it to the next level. Give you more ideas, give you more AI agents and more, almost like a chat GPT for ideas with it. But you can start for free idea browser.com. And if you're listening to this, I highly recommend it. What's next?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Lovable.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Lovable cloud, lovable AI. So I will.

• 6:42Greg Isenberg?

  So explain what that is, because not everyone.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so basically, the pain point with lovable and Bolt was really the integrations, right? You would need a backend and it was really difficult, right? You had to sign up and then you had to connect and copy API keys. Again, these are trivial things to a developer, to a non-developer. This is a headache. And what they've done, from my understanding, is they've abstracted all this stuff away. So the moment you boot up a level project, I'm assuming they call APIs and they fetch all that information for you, which makes it easier. But I still have found people running to the Claude codes and the codexes and the cursor. So I will give lovable a B. How do you feel?

• 7:31Greg Isenberg?

  I understand why you're giving it a B. You know, because you look at it from an engineering perspective and you're probably like, well, if I'm going to go and create a product, you know, yeah, maybe lovable is something I can get, you know, get going. A pretty page, but I mean, from a prototyping perspective, if you know.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  I'll give you this, I think V zero is better than lovable.

• 7:57Greg Isenberg?

  Why do you say that?

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Versal's marketplace, like their integrations, it gives you plethora of options, right? So with lovable, for example, they've sort of picked what backend you're going to use. It's super base, right? And there's pros and cons to that, like depending on the type of apps you're going to build, there's pros and cons to it. With Versal, you have all the type, all different types of what you might call it backends. And here's where the bias comes in. Convex is going to be on the Versal marketplace soon. And I think Convex is the best market, best backend. And the reason why there's biases is because I work there now. Just full disclosure, because people are gonna be like, oh, he's talking about it because he works there. Well, I started working there because I liked the product.

• 8:38Greg Isenberg?

  Homie didn't look at the camera once until he started saying Convex. Said the word Convex and he was like, Convex is the number one.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm PR trained.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  But I personally think, and I've, for example, I had my wedding not too long ago. And I tried using all the AI tools to build like our RSVP site. And at some point, all of them bricked except V0. So even if I were just to like vibe code and just go through it, I personally think out of the V0, Bolt and Lovable, I would pick V0.

• 9:15Greg Isenberg?

  There's also templates and components that you can reuse with V0?

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And just like the integration with Vercel. It's one of those things too where I know this probably doesn't matter to a tier list, but I also sort of think about like the future of the plot, like the tool we're using. And it's like, it seems like Vercel and V0 are going to be very tight knit. And that's like a bet I'm willing to make if I'm building a product that I want users to use.

• 9:43Greg Isenberg?

  So are you giving V0 S tier? Is that what I'm hearing?

• 9:47Speaker 01

  If I was a vibe vibe coder, like let's say I did not know how to write code, I would maybe write there. I don't, I don't think I'd give it like, can we do it in between? Okay, so I'll do it in in between and this is definitely non-technical friendly. Lovable of course is here as well. You sort of disagreed with Lovable being a B tier, so we're.

• 10:08Greg Isenberg?

  No, no.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Do you think it's A? I can give you like an A between B.

• 10:14Greg Isenberg?

  That's what I think it really is.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Okay, I'll give you an A between B.

• 10:17Greg Isenberg?

  That's what I think it is.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Bolt? I would put them on par with Lovable.

• 10:21Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, fair. See, not a biased investor. I respect that.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Rourke, I personally haven't used Rourke, so I will trust your judgment. I know they do mobile apps.

• 10:34Greg Isenberg?

  Right. So there's this new class of vibe coding apps for literal mobile apps. And that's vibe code app by Riley, our friend Riley. Yep. And Rourke.

• 10:47Greg Isenberg?

  I haven't played with both of them extensively, but played with them enough to know that

• 10:56Greg Isenberg?

  vibe code app is, it really is the lovable for mobile apps. I find the, oh, actually, there's also anything.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Yes, I have seen anything. I maybe did one prompt and then I stopped just because I don't really do a lot of mobile app stuff. But I have realized and even at Convex, there's a lot of like these mobile app vibe coding platforms that are popping up.

• 11:21Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  This seems to be the

• 11:23Greg Isenberg?

  And for, and for a reason, right? Like, I think that there's a lot of opportunity to make money building apps for

• 11:30Speaker 01

  So you think mobile app, like if I wanted to, let's say I wanted to launch a consumer product, you think, you think mobile is better than web?

• 11:38Greg Isenberg?

  I don't think it's better. I think it depends what you're building. I just think that right now, there's, there's just a lot of, you know, you're seeing the Cal AIs of the world making millions of dollars a month with relatively simple apps with AI baked in. So I think that there's going to be a lot of people who want to build something similar in different niches. And that's why I think that right now, I'm actually coming up with a lot of mobile app ideas. And that's why, yeah.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  You see, maybe I'm just thinking too, like, I'm too much in my developer mind. But to me, it feels like downloading an app feels like too much commitment for me. Like, I would really need a reason to download an app. But it seems like people are just downloading apps. Like, they'll watch a TikTok video and they're like, yeah, I want to check this out. So am I wrong? Or is like, why the push for apps? Because everyone's doing an app now, a consumer app?

• 12:31Greg Isenberg?

  Um, I think, uh, I'm the same way, to be honest.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Like, to me, it just feels like a lot of commitment.

• 12:38Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah, it is a commitment. It is a commitment. But like, if you are suffering from back pain, and you're on TikTok, and you searched, you know, back pain for tall people, and then you see this ad that is just, hey, are you tall? And so, as a matter of fact, I'm six foot three. You know, well, we have this AI that helps you like reduce back pain by 35% in this, you know, we become your back pain coach. You know, do you want to download this? And it gets me at that moment, I might, I might.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 13:10Greg Isenberg?

  I might download it.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  And I find that in like, observing my wife has helped me realize social trends. People use TikTok like a search engine.

• 13:18Greg Isenberg?

  Yes.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  So that, that makes sense. So where do we put vibe code, Rourke, anything, if you've used anything?

• 13:28Greg Isenberg?

  I think we can put them

• 13:31Greg Isenberg?

  right bef- below lovable and Bolt.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  So B tier, solid.

• 13:36Greg Isenberg?

  B tier, solid. I think that you can use any of those and, you know, maybe one of them is slightly better on the day or slightly worse on the day. But I think that they, though, what's gonna happen, I think, is those are, it's so relatively new. Like, I think Rourke launched like a couple of months ago.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  I also remembered another one. My boy Seth is A zero, which is a mobile app one as well. So, yeah, I think, like, to your point, I haven't tested any of them one to give a definitive opinion, but they're all fairly new and it's exciting stuff and I'm sure they have free tier, so max it out.

• 14:12Greg Isenberg?

  I think they're gonna get better too over time, right? Do you know, are they all built on expo?

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Yes, I think, from my understanding, I know Rourke is, I'm pretty sure they are. It would be foolish for them to not be, because you would want your app to be on both Android and, and, you know, App Store. And if you're doing a Swift app, then you're gonna have to do the Google Play version, and that's two different code bases. So it would make sense for them to use expo. And again, the ecosystem is growing, React is growing, there's a lot of money behind it. So I would think that they're all built on expo. So that and here's the funny part. All these guys are probably using the same model underneath

• 14:58Speaker 01

  the hood. It's either going to be Claude or it's going to be Codex, which is gaining a lot of hype. I'm interested to hear what you think about Codex.

• 15:07Greg Isenberg?

  I mean, you're the front end developer.

• 15:11Greg Isenberg?

  Little higher.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Little higher. Yes. So I I seen a lot of hype with GPT five's Codex model and I used it in Cursor. It was okay. Like it was pretty good, but I still think Claude Sonnet four or five is the best coding model uh right now. So I would put Codex like right below Cursor but above lovable and Bolt.

• 15:36Greg Isenberg?

  And for non-technical people, like should they be using Codex?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yes, Codex does have like a web version. I would put it like somewhere around here and there's to your point to like a cursor. There are a lot of videos on Codex because they seem to have gone both developer and non-developer attention. You can use like OpenAI's web-based cloud platform uh to run Codex. So I would put it like somewhere around here.

• 16:02Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  I still think there's a little feat, like there's a little difficulty to it if you're non-technical, but where there's a will, there's a way.

• 16:09Greg Isenberg?

  My take on Codex is it's a bit, yeah, it's a little worse than Cursor, but it's gains like the most um most improved award.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Yes, that 100% because it sucked in the beginning.

• 16:23Greg Isenberg?

  It really did.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  And like now people are comparing it to Claude, like Claude code. So they've definitely, Sam's cooking.

• 16:29Greg Isenberg?

  Sam's cooking and I wouldn't bet against them.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  No, no, they have trillions of dollars or whatever, but billions.

• 16:36Greg Isenberg?

  Well, it's important, right? Because if you're going to pick something you.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  100% right. You don't want to be windsurfed.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  I'm not mean, I swear. I'm actually a nice guy. Nice guy, but I couldn't help it.

• 16:51Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Um, Claude Code.

• 16:53Greg Isenberg?

  Okay. All right. What do you think?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  I think Cursor's king, man.

• 16:57Greg Isenberg?

  Wow.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Claude Code got nerfed. Claude Code

• 17:00Greg Isenberg?

  Recently though.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Recently has got nerfed, yes. Like if this was four weeks ago,

• 17:07Speaker 01

  it'd be like this. Like Claude Code would be above S tier. But like now, like I don't know what's happening. Like I rather like, it'll use the same model, Claude Sonic 4.5. I'll get better results with it on Cursor than with on Claude Code. And the reason being is, a lot of people think like, oh, if they're using the same model, it's the same output. But really, the difference maker is like, yes, everyone's using the same model. But then you build the agent on top. And basically what that means is, like when you tell, when you prompt, hey, fix this error, right? The LLM doesn't have the power to read a file. You have to give it a tool that gives it the ability to read a file.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  And then it reads that code and then it gives you the output. And now you have to give it a tool to write that code. Right? So it seems to me Cursor's agent, which is built on top of Claude Code, that gives it the ability to read, write, edit, and all that type of stuff, might actually be better than Claude, Claude Code Claude Code, right? So I, I think this is going to be a tug of war, right? Like where Claude Code will be better at one point, then Cursor, then Claude Code, then Cursor, right? But as a non-technical person,

• 18:20Speaker 01

  if I, if I would be frank, if I was a non-technical person, Cursor would be here, Claude Code would be here, and this would be the tier list.

• 18:28Greg Isenberg?

  We're missing one, one company here.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Who?

• 18:33Greg Isenberg?

  Replit.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Are you an investor in Replit?

• 18:36Greg Isenberg?

  No, I'm not an investor.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask a serious question. I don't know anyone who's used Replit. But they're winning. I'm not even trying to be funny. Like, I actually don't know a single soul who's used Replit. The one time I used Replit was back when I, like, this is like three years ago, four years ago.

• 18:56Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  And I needed to run some sort of like file, some Python script. So who uses Replit?

• 19:03Greg Isenberg?

  I mean, I know two people who use.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Okay, so they're winning then. Okay, makes sense.

• 19:07Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  I don't know where I'd put Replit. I've never built anything fully with it. People seem to love it. They raised a bajillion dollars as well. So I'll trust your discretion.

• 19:19Greg Isenberg?

  I mean, they've, I, from what I understand, they have two modes with Replit. So they have like your vibe code mode and then they have agent mode. So you prompt it and it takes like 15 or 20 minutes and it goes and builds your app. Instead of one minute or two minutes, which is cool.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  So they built their own agent. Are they using like their own model? Like, are they developing their own models or?

• 19:44Greg Isenberg?

  I'm not sure. Like, if they're developing their own models, it's hard to like say, right? But I have seen, you know, my friend Billy Howell actually talks a lot about Replit. And I've seen some of the output on it and it's pretty impressive.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  So you're giving it an A?

• 20:07Greg Isenberg?

  I'm giving it, I'm putting it in like lovable bolt, Replit, yeah.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  So, okay, so this is fair. So we have V0 close to, in my opinion, maybe a little in the A tier. But like, if I was a vibe coder, I'd go for V0, Codex, lovable bolt. Actually, can I add one more?

• 20:25Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Have you heard of Chef?

• 20:27Greg Isenberg?

  No.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Chef was actually built by Convex.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  But what's funny is the reason Chef was built and we built Chef was to show vibe coding platforms that if you use Convex as your backend, it's better. So we didn't build it to compete. One or two people worked on Chef and it's actually pretty good. Like off rip you'll get and I won't, because people will be like, oh, you're being biased. So I won't even show. You could check it out. It's free. So Chef isn't meant to compete, but it was more so of a showcase for tools to use Convex as their backend. And a lot of the new tools, like you have Vla, you have Bloom, like a lot of the new vibe coding platforms are all built on Convex because they saw this and they're like, oh, and we open source the repo too. Anyone can fork and build a vibe coding platform. And I, non-bias, would put Chef along these lines.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  The only thing is, again, we're not trying to compete. So at some point, these tools will get better. Like for example, I don't think there's a way for you to assign a domain on Chef, right? So wasn't meant to impress users, but more so developers who are building these tools. But yeah, I think I'm, I'm pretty happy with this list.

• 21:40Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, so just to wrap this up, what advice do you have for non-technical people and technical people? If they're trying to choose a vibe coding platform?

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if you're technical, then man, it's like Cursor or Claude Code. Like there's, there's no other option in my opinion. And that's simply because you're probably going to be steering the wheel anyway. So you're not going to be vibe vibe coding. I know there's like open code by my Uncle Dax. I haven't used it, sorry, Unc. I should. I hear a lot of developers talk, you know, highly of it. So like you're probably using one of these tools and you're probably steering the ship, right? So no advice to you, just do what you're supposed to do. Now to non-technical people. Um, I think uh there has to be, I've noticed after last couple of months with all the new tools and all that stuff happening.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  There has to be a mindset shift and the mindset shift is a lot of people get frustrated if in five prompts, they don't build something. And it's like respectfully, the audacity to think you're going to build software that's fully functional. That people are going to use and care about borderline pay you money. I don't want to crash out. And you think you could do it in five, six prompts when you know it takes time, it takes planning, it takes testing. There's alpha, there's beta, then there's a final version and then like software is art. And you know, thank the Lord that there are tools that allow the non-technical person to build stuff, but we need audacity. We, we need to treat it with care. Um, your first version doesn't work.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  You used, you know, you used a lovable and it broke. Okay. So what? You use another tool and try again, right? I think there needs to be a shift in understanding that software is difficult. Websites are easy, you know, landing pages are easy, but software is difficult, especially ones people actually pay for, right? So when we enter this mindset, we're like, okay, I'm going to build something. It's going to be awesome. It's going to take me time because I'm going to make it awesome. Then we'll be okay. But I'll see people like, yeah, I prompted 10 times and it broke.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Welcome to software development.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  So that's the one thing I would see like there are a lot of cool tutorials. I mean, you bring up a lot of awesome people that show people like the mindset, you know, planning. Cursor has this one thing called plan mode, which is pretty awesome and all that stuff is great. And there are even tools that allow you to plan now and you know, chat GPT five is great. If you want to like just go back and forth and brainstorm. It's more about mindset now. A lot of non-technical people fail to realize that it really takes time to build something awesome. It's like building a business, right? Or if you're a gym bro, it's like going to the gym. You know, great things take time. They take patient, take calculation. There's mistakes. Mistakes lead to experience, experience leads to you being a better builder. So take time and enjoy the ride.

• 24:33Greg Isenberg?

  There you go. Well said. I want to say one last thing to end. My recommendation to people is actually to follow all the founders of these businesses. So V0, Guillermo, Kodak, Sam Altman, Loveable Anton, Bolt is Eric Simons, Replit, Amjad, etc., etc. Follow them and then see who you believe in. Like if you really connect with Eric, if you really connect with Amjad, if you really connect with Sam Altman, like then pick that platform.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Facts, because you're betting on someone.

• 25:08Greg Isenberg?

  You're betting on someone.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  You're betting on a company, right? And this is why, again, like people who bet on windsurf got windsurfed.

• 25:13Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Greg Isenberg?

  God bless him. All right, that's the episode. Mickey, thanks for coming on.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Greg, I appreciate you, man. It's been, it's been a fun year.

• 25:23Greg Isenberg?

  It's been a fun year. You've had a busy year. I'm going to include links to follow you. I know you're getting to 100,000 subscribers on YouTube.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  We're trying, we're trying.

• 25:32Greg Isenberg?

  We'll include that there and see you next time.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Appreciate you, bro. Thank you again. Later.