Battle of the Bastards: Achilles v Odysseus w/ Hermes Michaela

In a special, rambley holiday episode, Liv and Michaela look at who was worst Achilles or Odysseus? CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

• 1:05Liv Albert?

  Hi, hello, welcome. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby. And I am your host Liv, who is doing this in front of Michaela for the first time ever. And therefore, I'm going to rush through it because it's weird.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  You're Gucci.

• 1:24Liv Albert?

  Oh, to the listeners at home, we are, this is a fun, absurd holiday episode. I almost said Halloween, which is an incredibly great indicator of where my mind is at. This is a holiday episode, Michaela and I are recording together, where, well, we are mostly just going to rant and ramble at you. And, and we're pretty excited about it. We're pretty excited about it. But it is the first time I have, I am recording an introduction whilst she is on the call with me. And that's because I don't want to do additional work after this. Today, we are here with what is now the second annual Battle of the Bastards.

• 2:06Liv Albert?

  Michaela made a face. You're right. I'm not sure I did it last year. I think it was the year before.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter.

• 2:11Liv Albert?

  It is the second annual regardless of that being not an accurate phrasing. We are here for a Battle of the Bastards, uh, because a couple of years ago, I did, uh, just a silly little thing where I compared Theseus and Jason to determine who was the biggest piece of shit and/or the most useless. That's Theseus and Jason respectful. It was a respectable respectfully. Respectively. Um, also this episode is going to have minimal editing, so we're just going to do our best in the recording and, uh, you all just get to hear what I sound like when I am still getting used to speaking into a microphone for the first time in a few months. Um, but we, today's is not about Theseus and Jason,

• 2:56Liv Albert?

  though. No, no, no. This one was Michaela's idea. She said, Liv, you did this thing a couple of years ago. Wouldn't this be fun? But what if it was Achilles versus Odysseus? And gods, was that a great idea? Not least because we both have these problematic faves who we are devoted to while simultaneously acknowledging that they are pieces of human garbage in the ancient sources for varied reasons.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Slightly problematic. They have some problems.

• 3:27Liv Albert?

  Yeah, they're, they're problematic faves. Everyone's got to have one. I love Odysseus despite the fact that he was a murderous piece of human garbage who caused more destruction than most other characters in Greek mythology combined. And Michaela loves Achilles, even though he was a whiny little bitch sometimes.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Yep. Truly, he truly was. Um, and I adore it, not least because of, you know, burrito Achilles. We get that.

• 3:56Liv Albert?

  Burrito Achilles?

• 3:57Speaker 01

  No, burrito Achilles.

• 3:59Liv Albert?

  Oh, I do know burrito Achilles.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, exactly.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  These are the important things.

• 4:06Liv Albert?

  I will try to post, uh, burrito Achilles on the Instagram to when this episode comes out. Make it like.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  I will remind you.

• 4:14Liv Albert?

  Yeah, text me a photo so that I can pop it on to a fun little graphic of burrito Achilles. Maybe we could also, we'll also post one of my favorite Achilles pieces of pottery, which is the one where he's like bandaging himself up and his like tiny little dick is just like in the forefront of the frame.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  It's.

• 4:33Liv Albert?

  For no good reason.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Petrouchka Lys, together, he's bandaging up Petrouchka Lys.

• 4:36Liv Albert?

  And it's just like this. Just the tiniest, tiniest little penis and it's just right there.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Right in front. You know what? He wasn't shy, I guess.

• 4:48Liv Albert?

  And it, and he, you know, he can't even be excused to have a thinking man's penis because the man was not, he was not a thinking man. So.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  My God, did he try, but it hurt his little brain.

• 5:01Liv Albert?

  You know, not everyone is cut out for intellectualism and that's okay. He was Achilles.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  He's our himbo. He's our krunk.

• 5:11Liv Albert?

  Oh my God, Achilles is krunk.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  He would be the one making spinach puffs.

• 5:19Liv Albert?

  All right. So how do we want to do this? We're just going to like each defend both of, I, I mean, I, I like the idea of us being able to talk simultaneously about why we love them and why they're pieces of garbage all in one. Um, so yeah, do you, do you like to begin by speaking on, I mean.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  On Achilles. Uh, okay.

• 5:38Liv Albert?

  Tell me why he is both.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  My favorite.

• 5:41Liv Albert?

  Well, yeah, but also like we, this is the battle of the bastards. So we can also be like, who is the bigger bastard? So.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Easily Odysseus.

• 5:49Liv Albert?

  Well, we'll see, we'll see when it comes down to me. So tell me why you think Odysseus is the biggest bastard.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  I have many qualms with Odysseus. Mostly, I, I am appalled by his ability to reason away his own um faults and the things he does wrong in life. And

• 6:10Liv Albert?

  That's because Odysseus does nothing wrong. I don't know what to tell you.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  I don't know. There's something about, you know, he, he's gone for twenty. Okay, so you know, my whole thing is he is such a bad father, that it's astounding to me.

• 6:24Liv Albert?

  I literally will not deny that at all. But I also think that like Telemachus is such a little piece of shit that I don't really

• 6:29Speaker 01

  But I think

• 6:30Liv Albert?

  all that much.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  But I think that's Odysseus's fault, because he was not there.

• 6:34Liv Albert?

  But at the same time, it, it also is simultaneously entirely Telemachus's fault. Because his father had literally no influence on his personality.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  But

• 6:44Liv Albert?

  Which means he got there all himself. Like, yes, feeling sorry for himself because his dad was not there, but ultimately.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  But here's the thing, right? So Odysseus, first of all, he's like, I'm gonna get out of this war. I'm gonna do so by endangering my child. First of all, I'm gonna pretend to be mad and go towards him. Now I under will, but no, okay. Well, they put him in front of him. This is me being mistaken. They, he stops for the love of the child. Fine, okay. My mistake. Okay, but then he leaves. And he could have only been gone for ten years.

• 7:12Liv Albert?

  Yeah, okay.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  But then he has to, he just has to. He gets out of his little mess. And as he's leaving, he just has to be like, ha ha, twas I, Odysseus who messed. Why? He could, he didn't need to take the credit. He didn't. And then because of that, he was gone for another ten years. Ten years. And then he shows up. And the first time his son, his, the first memory his son has of him is him dick out, killing people.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Bad parenting. That's his folder. He's like, oh, boy, I'm so sad. I don't have a dad. And suddenly Odysseus is there like, ha ha. Just uncloses himself and starts a mass murder. That's wild.

• 8:05Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  It's too much.

• 8:07Liv Albert?

  I'm trying to, I'm trying to find some rebuttals, but they're not coming to me.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, that is exactly what he did. And I understand, you know, Penelope absolutely knew it was Odysseus. Odysseus is all like pretending to be some old man. And he's all like, the bed and blah, blah, blah. And she's like, mm hmm, okay. You know, that's so funny. And in her head, she's just like, does he think he's tricking me?

• 8:31Liv Albert?

  Truly. Like, does this man think I'm stupid? And the answer is probably yes. Yeah, Penelope deserves better. Penelope deserved better.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Justice for Penelope, but this isn't what we're here for. Why do you think Odys- uh, Odysseus, not Odysseus, Achilles? What's, what's, what's wrong with Achilles?

• 8:50Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I find him annoying is, is not a good enough argument. You, yours was so, so prepared. Uh, no, I mean, the thing about Achilles, I guess, you know, you know, he really, huh, oh gosh. It's, you know, he's just annoying. That's not enough.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  I think it's accurate though, actually.

• 9:12Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  He is.

• 9:13Liv Albert?

  Right? Like, I just think he just, I just wish, I, I wanted him to be better. I guess, I think, you know, he, no, Achilles, it, it, to me, it's just, you know, he, uh, uh, the, I'm struggling. I'm struggling with, because I think I could.

• 9:31Liv Albert?

  You can see. I think.

• 9:35Liv Albert?

  Uh, I think that I could, you know, if I was a capitalist or a, if I was, if I was a fan of war, uh, or thought that it was in any way, uh, a valiant endeavor or something worthwhile of humanity's time, then I think I could make a great argument. Uh, which is, I think what, what I was prepared for my argument to be. Um, but then I keep, you know, then I, uh, my brain thinks about it and I'm like, well, Achilles was bad because he didn't think of the greater good of all of the Greeks at the war. And as soon as he was, you know, bothered by, by the actions of Agamemnon, he just like went on a little petulant strike.

• 10:19Liv Albert?

  And then I think, well, actually, no, that's because Achilles didn't actually see, Achilles wasn't.

• 10:26Liv Albert?

  Compared to all the other Greeks, I think Achilles was maybe the least taken in by the Akhenian propaganda. Like the equivalent, because in my head now the Akhenans are just the West. Sorry, guys, but that's true. Both literally and figuratively, they are the West versus the East. But no, like, you know, if, if they were actually doing something that was like worthwhile and Achilles holding them up, you know, was, was causing a problem to that, then I could argue that he was a bastard. But I think what I'm doing is just agreeing with you immediately and making the show not, the episode's not even gonna be 12 minutes, I guess.

• 11:04Liv Albert?

  Because I'm just like, well, you're right. Achilles was better. He's annoying and he was definitely a bit of like a petulant child a lot of the time. And he went crying to mom a lot. I think that Thetis could have raised a stronger young man. I think that she, you know, was so.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Firstborn mom?

• 11:24Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I mean, very, yeah. She's a mother of a boy.

• 11:31Liv Albert?

  But yeah, no, it's, it's, yeah, it's funny talking about it like that because generally I do appreciate that Achilles was like, this war is stupid. Everything is stupid. I'm only here because I am forced to be and because I'm like so good at this that you have to have me. But really, he was like, I don't really respect what you guys are doing, so I don't give a shit. And now do I love Achilles?

• 11:55Speaker 01

  I'm actually gonna now flip the switch a bit. Unless I love Achilles, I'll give you a reason. I think it's easier to think of him, his, his whole like, I, I don't love what's happening. It's not necessarily the war.

• 12:09Liv Albert?

  No, it's not for the greater good. I'm not gonna pretend that he's doing that because he's like a good guy. It's because he's like, this is annoying for me personally.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Yes, and he had, because he had the prophecy, basically, you know, you go, you die young.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  And everyone remembers you, or you live to old age and no one will know you.

• 12:27Liv Albert?

  Is that in the Iliad?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Um, I don't remember.

• 12:31Liv Albert?

  I don't think it is, and I, I only say that because I've always been really curious and I.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:36Liv Albert?

  I don't know offhand where that is, but I know it well. So anyway, I'm not questioning you. I'm just curious about it, but.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  He had a choice, I think is, is, is here, here I'm giving you. Here's why Achilles is the problem. He had a choice.

• 12:49Liv Albert?

  Well, I can tell you why Odysseus is the problem later. Don't worry.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  And he did choose to go off um and fight. And then when he stopped, it wasn't necessarily because he was like, oh, this isn't. I don't agree with what's happening. It's that he wasn't being given his dues. And that Agamemnon was taking his uh, his uh, what was it? The garas, I think it was um, his war prize, which was just a woman.

• 13:12Liv Albert?

  Yeah, well, that's the thing. And now you're getting into that. And I'm like, oh, right. If I forget all of my feels about Western propaganda and Western warmongering, um, and if I, you know, don't equate Agamemnon with the US and Israel. Then, then yeah, I mean, the idea that he, he, he stopped helping all of his fellow Greeks because the woman he had rightfully enslaved, that's in air quotes, um, was removed from him, like was taken away. Then yeah, I mean, like, I don't, I don't think he has a, a great backbone. Um, I don't think that he's particularly, you know, uh,

• 13:56Liv Albert?

  beneficial to humankind in that respect.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  Hmm. What do I want to say in defense of this? I don't know. I think the thing though, is that he sticks to um, what he knows how to do. Uh, and I appreciate that about him.

• 14:12Liv Albert?

  Odysseus does the same, I could say, actually.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Odysseus is Athena's little pet rat. He's, he is Athena's.

• 14:20Liv Albert?

  Well, Achilles is Athena's little pet rat. So.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Achilles is a nepo baby, unfortunately.

• 14:28Liv Albert?

  So is Odysseus, but less so.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Uh, Odysseus was.

• 14:31Liv Albert?

  It's a stretch. People say that he's divine, but yeah.

• 14:37Liv Albert?

  I think Odysseus is this like, uh, uh, I find him so interesting because of his mind, which is of course like his whole thing. Um, but like he also, I find him, he, I mean, he's my, let's, maybe I'll defend it in this way, which is that like, he is my problematic fave, not because I think he's in any way a good guy, but because I do find it really interesting, the way that he. That he like ends up doing all of the wild shit that he does like.

• 15:08Liv Albert?

  You know, with with Odysseus, like we get to actually see kind of where. You know, quote unquote, intelligence can get you. And I say like, I say it that way because like I, you know, he he is incredibly smart. He's incredibly manipulative and he does not seem to have even a shred of like.

• 15:29Liv Albert?

  Conscious involved in that, you know, like he is, it's so self-serving. And it's so just about proving himself to be like. The smartest guy in the room and the most interesting guy in the room. Like, I mean, I I've I do, I maintain, I do still love Odysseus, but definitely in the in the time since, you know, I I've. First started calling him my main man, like, I have grown in my opinions on him and I remain, I think I love him. But I think my love for him is um. Perhaps like problematically tied with Sean Bean as Odysseus.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  And you know what? I think my love of Achilles is problematically tied with Brad Pitt. Absolutely.

• 16:12Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Cause if I actually do look at like, like. I know for you, like, the Odyssey is your favorite of the whole.

• 16:20Liv Albert?

  Yeah, which is why I love Odysseus. It's like not because he was a good guy, but because I I fucking love the Odyssey.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  And I I love the Iliad personally. It is my favorite.

• 16:28Liv Albert?

  I've never heard that from you.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Really? I love it. I think it's really an interesting.

• 16:33Liv Albert?

  Tell us the first line. Go.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Uh, sing or sing of the rage of Achilles.

• 16:37Liv Albert?

  No, no, in Greek.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, give me a moment. Um. Oh, my God. Ah, uh, Menon, it's on my hands. What's wrong with me? Menon, I ate it. They are peleada or Gileos, ulumen and himuria. That's where I walk off. I get to the uh, the terrible rage. Which blah. But yeah, no, I love the Iliad because I think it's actually very anti-war.

• 17:05Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is amazing for that.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think it's a very interesting um.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Psychological look, psychological, uh, but just like look at human behavior in conflict and of looking at both sides and you are given the good guys and they're not really shown to be wholesale good. Um, and the

• 17:31Liv Albert?

  And are they ever, do you like, I, I, I, this is everything that I find to be the most interesting about the Iliad too, so. But do you think that they're really ever suggested to be the good guy in any way? Or do you think that that is entirely coming from the, you know, the development of the, like, I mean, the Iliad as being tied to the ancient Greece? Like, I, I often think about whether there is kind of any explicit indication that we should be rooting for the Greeks in the Iliad, or whether all of that is coming from our association with it being like a Greek text.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  You know, I haven't thought too much about that, but that, that, that does ring some like, yeah, that makes sense to my brain where it feels like.

• 18:17Liv Albert?

  Cause I don't think there's ever any moment where we're supposed to side with the Greeks, which is what I find to be most interesting about the Iliad.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  I don't know, I kind of like when Achilles fights a river, that was fun.

• 18:26Liv Albert?

  Well, when Achilles fights a river, that's pretty badass. Did you know, and I, I'm gonna say this, having looked it up for my novel, and then just wanting to make sure I'm actually like, right, so I could be wrong, but, um, there's like, cause I, I feel like in the Iliad, there are sort of interchangeable names for that river, right? It's Scamander, but it's also Xanthos.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Hmm, okay.

• 18:49Liv Albert?

  And, cause I think what I figured it out, or what I learned, and again, I use this for the novel, so that it kind of sits in a different point in my brain, but that Xanthos is the divine name for the river and Scamandros is the mortal name for the river, which I think is, just like a whole other level of interesting.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like that. I trust you.

• 19:11Liv Albert?

  Thank you.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  But sorry, more more Iliad. Um, I think the thing is, I don't know necessarily if you can wholesale say, uh, Greeks or the Hians are the the good guys, the Trojans are the bad guys.

• 19:24Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Because I think a lot of the times what we are shown is that these are two different camps and in each camp there are good and bad people.

• 19:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  And who have good and bad motives. And I find that utterly fascinating when we're given such diversity and it's not, it's not so black and white and people who take it as black and white. I'm like, you've missed the whole.

• 19:44Liv Albert?

  They that's the thing. Yeah, exactly. Like, there is no point where we are given a reason to to to think one is better than the other. And I think that, yeah, any kind of, any kind of desire to do that is coming out of either, you know, like later things from the Western world that are getting tied to it, but also just this, this very specifically North American. Um, yeah. Opinion on war and this idea that like, we always know best and you know, if the West wants to bomb the shit out of a country, they should say thank you. Um, Syria. Uh, huh, like,

• 20:31Liv Albert?

  I'm like, oh, yay, freedom for Syria, except are they actually free or are they act, were they just now, or is the West trying to fucking inflict all new things?

• 20:41Speaker 01

  I'm so tired of existence.

• 20:45Liv Albert?

  Um, anyway, uh, remember in the Iliad when the West went over and uh, tried to colonize but ended up just fully destroying an eastern civilization for no other reason than they felt like it?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  I hate to say that, but I think you're confusing the Iliad with the Odyssey.

• 21:03Liv Albert?

  Or is it that it's both and everything the West has ever done since?

• 21:14Liv Albert?

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• 21:57Liv Albert?

  right now and I have my go-to woven leather bag. I seriously use it everywhere. That's why it's with me here. It's beautiful and it's practical and it's from Quince. And I actually have a parcel to pick up when I get back home, which has some goodies in there. I got this pair of corduroy high-rise pants. I'm really excited to try those out as soon as I get home. And everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you can give luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag. So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the

• 22:37Liv Albert?

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• 23:58Liv Albert?

  Well, that's the thing. I mean, as soon as I said colonize, that ties closer with the Odyssey.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Oh, the Odyssey is just, you know.

• 24:04Liv Albert?

  The Iliad, the Iliad rings true still because, you know, the, the West does love to just go and absolutely just decimate, just decimate entire cultures and countries in the Middle East and then be like, oh, we don't actually want to stay here, though. Like, this is Arab land. We don't want it. We just want to like, um, kill everyone who doesn't agree with us and call everyone else. Anyone who tries to fight against us is terrorists for sure. Yeah, like, oh, I'm sorry, you're resisting tyranny? That sounds an awful lot like terrorism to me.

• 24:42Liv Albert?

  I'm having ideas for a future series of the show that we should, uh, talk about off mic.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  I will say, there, there is, to pull it back to where we were talking about how we, we, uh, we, uh, we know that these characters aren't great, but we still love them. And if there is any good characters, this is not about, this episode is not about him. I will defend Achilles, even though I know he has problems.

• 25:05Liv Albert?

  But how great is Nestor?

• 25:07Speaker 01

  How great is Antilochus, his son? That is the hero. That is the hero we all love. He died, he died young, so we didn't actually have to, um, see him go, you know, crazy and do some stupid shit. He gets to be young and good. For eternity, cuz he died.

• 25:24Liv Albert?

  But all, I mean, and though Nestor really, you know, of all people, he has got a lot of nuance. That guy.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Nestor's a good father, except for in the Odyssey, when he's all like, hey, remember that better son? To all his other kids. Although I had a very good conversation with a professor about that, and she, she made some interesting points where is, is that um, a cultural thing to do with mourning? I think it was something like that where because this is, is this just how you remember somebody? And so would his sons have act, would his other sons have actually been like, oh my God, we're never gonna live up to Antilochus? Or is this the proper way to, to honor him? Yeah.

• 26:01Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  But beyond that, um, uh, yeah, Antilochus, good guy. Nestor, so tired. Let the old man retire.

• 26:07Liv Albert?

  Truly. The man has seen enough.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  He's too old to be on the battlefield.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Oh, but Odysseus, okay. What more can I say to Bash?

• 26:20Liv Albert?

  You don't need to. I mean, I can talk about why he's a piece of shit too.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  I'm like, you're like, actually, you know what? Achilles not the bad. I'm like, let me come in and.

• 26:30Liv Albert?

  I mean, yeah, I think if we, I mean, I, I, I walked into this knowing Odysseus would win. I'll be honest about that. Odysseus is a bigger piece of shit. Oh, yeah, no, not, not it.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  I was supposed to be like, excuse me?

• 26:42Liv Albert?

  It's a battle of the bastards, Michaela. Uh, he is the biggest bastard. I, because I also think similarly to Antilochus, when you phrase it that way, that Achilles didn't have the chance to go on to be a bigger bastard. Like,

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:55Liv Albert?

  I think, I mean, I think maybe if we look to his son, if we look to the actions of Neoptolemus. Yeah, right? Like we get, we get kind of like, I wonder, you know, about speculating whether, if given the opportunity, Achilles would have turned out more like that. Or like where, where is that mentality coming from in Neoptolemus? Cause he's such a piece of shit.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Who was his mother again? Was, was it Amazon?

• 27:23Liv Albert?

  Uh, no, Neoptolemus's mom is the, the woman on that island on Skeros where he was hiding out.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  In drag.

• 27:29Liv Albert?

  Cause yeah, cause he pretended to be a girl, but also still managed to sleep with her and have a baby.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Men. It's just.

• 27:37Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  He had ethical relations with her.

• 27:43Liv Albert?

  Are you or someone you know on Hinge in the lower mainland?

• 27:51Speaker 01

  We love it.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  I need to get that as like a tramp stamp.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so wait, so then has you else? Okay, so this mom, they're both, they're both.

• 28:15Liv Albert?

  I know. There's not a lot. Yeah, like the thing about Neoptolemus generally is that also, you know, like, I mean, admittedly, I haven't read the play that features him. I would like to very much.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Is that the, that's the, uh, the fall of Troy? Is that, no?

• 28:31Liv Albert?

  No, the fall of Troy, I mean, I've, I've read that. That's the epic, the, from the Roman period. Um, and by, by I have read that, I mean, I read it on the podcast, uh, for everyone to hear. Um, but Neoptolemus is heavily in that for sure, but I'm talking, uh, so earlier sources, um, he's in Andromache.

• 28:52Liv Albert?

  And I always forget that that's the plot of Andromache. It's after the, she is, has literally been living in his kingdom as his like war prize. Yeah. And they have like a kid together and then he has Hermione as his new wife. And like, that's what the play is about. So anyway, we have to cover that soon.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  I, I, I've had plans to like, put a whole like spreadsheet together of all the plays we've done and have yet to do.

• 29:18Liv Albert?

  Oh, please. Yeah. Yeah. No, fair. That's the story of everything. Um, yeah, no, it's, so Neoptolemus, we don't have a ton of like actually like or any kind of archaic or let alone pre-archaic sources on him as a character because everything, you know, is lost. So yeah, he's heavily in the fall of Troy where he's a piece of garbage. And again, I haven't read Andromache, but at the same time, like, so like every other play, like, we have to, we have to, where we have to understand Andromache as reception. So like, we still, we still don't know what Neoptolemus was imagined as, you know, in the ancient world, i- or in that, you know, that earliest form of the ancient world that we're talking about with Iliad. So I wonder, but like,

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:02Liv Albert?

  Yeah, like if given the chance, like just how terrible would Achilles have been? Certainly his reaction to Patroclus's death is not a great indicator for like how he would have handled like further issues in his life.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  You know, I was hoping that would come up.

• 30:19Liv Albert?

  But really, you, you, you thought maybe that in a discussion about Achilles, we might not mention the time he went absolutely fucking wild and started killing everybody, including arguably the most, the least problematic and most moral character in the entire epic?

• 30:37Speaker 01

  I'm just, I'm just writing something down because for some reason, um, you know me and my obsession with looking at fathers and sons and myths. I never thought of Achilles and Neoptole.

• 30:51Liv Albert?

  That's like the worst, most terrifying terror show of a terror.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  I, I know, but I still think it is.

• 30:57Liv Albert?

  The problem is they never met.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:59Liv Albert?

  They also never met, like for all, I mean, you're all your complaints about Odysseus as a father. Achilles never even met Neoptole.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then on that hand, just then Neoptole has to live up to this idealized image of who.

• 31:13Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that, that kid was set up for failure.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Why can't I spell his name right now? Neoptole? I don't care. Lomus, I guess.

• 31:22Liv Albert?

  Achilles's kid.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  That one, that one guy. Bit of a problem.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 31:30Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  You said something and then it was.

• 31:32Liv Albert?

  No, but no, no, you said something about, yeah, what, I mean, what, what? Uh, maybe this is really the battle of the bastards with Neoptole versus himself, but like.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Neoptole versus Telmacus, he's in with Neoptole.

• 31:46Liv Albert?

  Yeah, well, I mean, God, they're both obnoxious in different ways again.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but Telmacus is obnoxious in the way that, you know, he, um, well, I guess they both want to live up to their fathers.

• 31:57Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, no, they were both.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Great man.

• 31:59Liv Albert?

  Well, they were.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Telmacus sucks at it.

• 32:02Liv Albert?

  Kay, you know what, actually, maybe this is a more interesting like way to take this conversation. But like, what, yeah.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Better dad.

• 32:11Liv Albert?

  But Neoptole- no, Neoptolemus versus Telemachus as like the most broken sons from the Greek side of the Trojan War. Like.

• 32:22Liv Albert?

  Right, but like for real, like, but I also, they, they should have been a similar age, which as I'm saying that, that makes absolutely no sense. Because Neoptole- or Telemachus is like 20 when Odysseus gets back.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  But that, but it just, he would have been like 10. Yeah. How is Neoptolemus old enough?

• 32:42Liv Albert?

  Yeah, because Neoptolemus was born when Achilles was hiding out on that island, which presumably was only for like a year or two. So he would have been born around the same time as Telemachus.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  10.

• 32:50Liv Albert?

  But then he would have been, yeah, 10 when he had to come help them in the war, which doesn't make any sense.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  He's just a crazy little child.

• 32:56Liv Albert?

  You know, it's almost like the oral tradition was not trying to figure out chronologically accurate.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Just like the birth dates. Oh, so, so, um, something interesting, because this also, um, makes me think of, you know, like the sons. Or it was because I was talking with a professor about a thing that I'm not going to go into too much detail about. But, uh, we were talking about Odysseus and Telemachus, and I was having my issues with them. And then she was, we were.

• 33:22Liv Albert?

  Because they're both great guys who did awesome things.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then she was telling me about how Telemachus, um, is often held in contrast to Orestes. And how Agamemnon, um, Clytemnestra and Orestes are actually the opposite of Odysseus, Penelope and Telemachus.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  You know, like Clytemnestra is the anti-Penelope, Agamemnon is the anti-Odysseus, um, but Orestes is the better son.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  He is what, he is what Telemachus should be. What he is doing is what Telemachus should be striving for.

• 34:04Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  So that is interesting. So if we're looking at sons, Telemachus, Neopolemus, let's throw Aresdi's in there, because that poor boy.

• 34:13Liv Albert?

  Yeah, well, yeah, he was set up for failure, if anyone was.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Anyone was, and he did his, his best. He did his best.

• 34:22Liv Albert?

  His best could have been forgiving his mother instead of killing her, but whatever.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then his father's shades would have come from him. He was regardless, he was doomed.

• 34:30Liv Albert?

  Yeah, well, I guess a woman's shade is a little less threatening.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Well, that's just because the Athenians came in and they were like, call Athena and let's do a trial. No, he's Gucci, he's fine. That's retconning, that's reception, that's.

• 34:46Liv Albert?

  Well, but, but that's such a.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Aresdi's was doomed.

• 34:48Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah. No, that's such a great, but that's such a great reminder about the ways that every time we have to look at a play for any kind of source on the mythology, we have to, we have to remember the ways in which it's reception. Because, yeah, like the most famous forms of Aresdi's story are inextricably tied with Athenian democracy.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 35:08Liv Albert?

  So if you separate that and you think, oh, actually, Aresdi's story is like many hundreds of years older than, than, than Athenian democracy, then like what, you know, what would that have actually looked like? He would have just been hounded by the Furies forever, like.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  I think that's, I think that's exactly what it is. I think he was just doomed regardless, but that's, you know, the little curse coming into play, like that's just that family. But at this point, I think then, at that, at that point, um, we could think of that as more like, um, the, you know, the son is now like the, the innocent at the far end of his family's crimes, where the son is, could have done really good in life, could have done good things, but because of the things his forebears did, he is the one who pays the price for their big problems. Um, versus looking at.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Tell Marcus and Odysseus, Odysseus does all these wonderful things and now his son is living in his shadow in a way that he can never reach it.

• 36:10Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Um, and then Neoptolemus, well, he just overshadows his father in the most horrifying way.

• 36:17Liv Albert?

  If your shadow is blood. Then Neoptolemus overshadows his father.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Look, it is, uh, Achilles was good at one thing and he, uh, he really committed to it.

• 36:30Liv Albert?

  Yeah, and Neoptolemus was like, my dad was good at this one thing. If I'm ever going to live up to him, I have to be even better at this one thing. And it just turns out, aw shucks, this one thing was killing people.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then so the next question would be. If Neoptole, there are some traditions where Neoptolemus kills Aesinax, Aesinax, yeah?

• 36:52Liv Albert?

  Uh, I don't, I think it's always with Odysseus.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Okay, so here's another Odysseus, he throws baby at a wall.

• 36:59Liv Albert?

  I know. I know he throws a baby off a wall.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  He's like, you know what? Look at this little babe, off you go.

• 37:07Liv Albert?

  So, but here, if we're talking reception, if we're going that deep, all, as far as I recall, all forms of the story of who throws Aesinax off the walls of Troy are coming from a considerably later period.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  I'm trying to think of pottery.

• 37:23Liv Albert?

  But prove me wrong, prove me wrong, because I very well could be wrong.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  No, you, you, I, hmm.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  This is how we both have not done preparations.

• 37:33Liv Albert?

  That's the fun of this, this is a holiday episode, you guys, this is both us going from our obsessive memories of both of these characters and these texts.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  I still think it's kind of a problem if you throw a baby off a wall, just saying.

• 37:45Liv Albert?

  I mean, I would like to be put on the record and saying, I'm not saying it's a good thing when you threw the baby off the wall. I am, you know, famously not a fan of children, but I would like to be clear that I don't ever condone throwing them off a wall.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  I don't mind children as long as I can give them back to their parents when they start screaming.

• 38:04Liv Albert?

  Well, that's where you're a better woman than me.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  I, you know, I'll give them, I'll give them abundance of candy.

• 38:09Liv Albert?

  My uterus does never, never once gives, no, well, yeah, I know, you're lucky, but I'm saying mine never, doesn't even give me the desire to pick one up in the first place.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  I don't know, there's, there's like a certain age of babies where they're like, just like stuffies more than

• 38:27Liv Albert?

  Oh, you like them younger?

• 38:29Speaker 01

  I like it when they don't talk.

• 38:31Liv Albert?

  Ew, I only if they I don't think the children are worth

• 38:37Liv Albert?

  I don't think the children are worth my time until they can have a conversation with me. And I said that and I'm, I'm keeping it. I said it and I believe it.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  They say weird shit. Although honestly, though, bless, bless them out of babes.

• 38:47Liv Albert?

  I'll take a video of a kid being weird, but I don't want to interact.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Kids do say the funniest shit, though.

• 38:53Liv Albert?

  And that's what America's Funniest Home Videos was for.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:57Liv Albert?

  Or no, there's a whole, there was a whole show. That joke was sitting there waiting for me and it was kids say the darndest things.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Wonder what?

• 39:08Liv Albert?

  That reference was for a very select few of my listeners because most of you are too young, probably don't remember what that was.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  I feel like it's ringing a bell for me. I'm not even that much younger than you.

• 39:18Liv Albert?

  No.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  I'm not the same generation.

• 39:20Liv Albert?

  Oh, I mean, six Michaela, six years does a lot, though.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Is it six years? I thought it was five.

• 39:26Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  You're not, oh.

• 39:28Liv Albert?

  I know. You're thirty and I'm thirty-six.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  I thought you were younger.

• 39:33Liv Albert?

  I know, cuz I, it's cuz my skin, I just like, I absolutely

• 39:41Liv Albert?

  It's funny cuz it's not true, but I know I don't.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  The middle of winter, your skin doesn't have to look good.

• 39:47Liv Albert?

  I also just moved to the land of the dry. I'm trying to adapt. My lungs are not there yet.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  No. Oh, my god. I said, okay, hmm, okay, let's get back. So hmm.

• 39:57Liv Albert?

  Let's just return with this, uh, us laughing and saying, ah.

• 40:04Liv Albert?

  Garbage and Odysseus was worse.

• 40:08Liv Albert?

  To the listeners, we did just cut out a bit, um, and now we're wrapping it up. But I, I honestly

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Could I say more last?

• 40:15Liv Albert?

  You please?

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Odysseus is like ancient Columbus.

• 40:20Liv Albert?

  I was literally just about to be like, I didn't get a chance to say how problematic he was. Um, no, yeah, I, I, I think, I mean, I love, I love the Odyssey so much as this, as this like piece of art. Yeah. And like as this, as this piece, like, and so, and I do love Odysseus, but again, I think that is so deeply tied. To Sean Bean as Odysseus. And also those like the remnants, though, the remnants of when I learned to love these texts because the Greeks were the most brilliant and we, we love everything they did. And of course they were right and the West and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? So there's like

• 40:59Liv Albert?

  a little bit of tie there. But yeah, if I look at the Odyssey, you know, now, and I've always, I've always been, uh, I would, I would like to think like pretty open minded about that stuff. But now, um, over the last couple of years, just with the warmongering of the West, like I just no longer can see anything the way I used to. And the Odyssey is, it's just wild. It is. Odysseus is Columbus. But if Columbus just set everything on fire and then was like, all right, I'm not gonna stay. Uh, you guys, you can actually, you can just try to fix what I just did. I actually have somewhere to be. Um, so like

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Turns out I have a wife and child at home.

• 41:46Liv Albert?

  Like, I don't want to defend Columbus, but at least the guy fucking stayed, you know?

• 41:51Speaker 01

  He committed.

• 41:53Liv Albert?

  To his atrocities.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  To the chagrin of my people, unfortunately.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Oh, the one time I didn't want someone to commit to the bit.

• 42:04Liv Albert?

  I mean, Columbus didn't come to Canada, if that's any consolation.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Still a dumbass pigeon.

• 42:10Liv Albert?

  But your direct people were more affected by the British and the French.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  To be fair, to be fair, there was no border till y'all came.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  This, this is actually, my, I could, yeah, my people straddled, we straddled the border back and forth. And actually, we loved, we loved to go for a little wander up and down. We had trading ports all the way into

• 42:34Liv Albert?

  Yeah, those big ass lakes.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:36Liv Albert?

  Yeah, those big ass lakes. You knew what to do with them.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  With an island with a lake on it, with an island on it.

• 42:41Liv Albert?

  I mean, I drove around Lake Superior for the first time, and now I have a full blown respect for the lakes.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  It has, it has fucking waves, like waves.

• 42:50Liv Albert?

  Did I say?

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Those lakes.

• 42:52Liv Albert?

  Oh, I, oh my god.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  There was.

• 42:54Liv Albert?

  We were there during like the wildest wind. The Lake Superior looked wilder than Dallas Road, which is like the wildest beaches on Vancouver Island. And that's like legit the sea. And we were driving by it being like, holy shit. This is like what you see on Dallas after an earthquake.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:11Liv Albert?

  It to in in Asia and we go down to the Dallas Road and be like, I would like to see the waves. And that was fucking Lake Superior.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, those lakes are, they're wild, they are.

• 43:21Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Just they they have, they have done damage. They have done damage in the way the sea has done damage.

• 43:28Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, they're equivalent, especially to an ancient people and like to the indigenous people of this region. Like it's equivalent to the sea, no doubt.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 43:38Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Well, what a very deeply North American way to wrap this up, but in a good way. I would, that's, I'm saying North America now in a good way. Um, because we're talking about the people who were here before.

• 43:51Liv Albert?

  Before the Odysseus of modern colonization came through.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Pigeon man.

• 43:57Liv Albert?

  What?

• 43:58Speaker 01

  You don't, Columbus means like.

• 44:00Liv Albert?

  What did you say?

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Pigeon, I call him pigeon.

• 44:02Liv Albert?

  Oh, is that what it is?

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Well, it means like dove or pigeon in Latin.

• 44:05Liv Albert?

  Oh.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  So I just call him a pigeon.

• 44:08Liv Albert?

  That's, I mean, I respect that, but I think it might be unkind to pigeons.

• 44:13Liv Albert?

  Pivot pigeons deserve more respect than Columbus.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think it's funny.

• 44:18Liv Albert?

  Oh, no, a hundred percent.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 44:21Liv Albert?

  Well, listeners. Odysseus wins, absolutely. He is, I mean, again, arguably worse than Columbus. And I think that this will not be the last time. And what?

• 44:32Speaker 01

  And Achilles.

• 44:34Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, if if, I mean, Columbus is obviously worse than Achilles, worse than Achilles. Achilles wasn't doing any colonizing. He just, he just really had strong emotions. And he, he used his sword to get them across.

• 44:48Liv Albert?

  His spear more likely.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  To give one last defense to Achilles and Noah wrapping this up, but to one last defense, he does like, he does. I just, the first book, and he's all like, I'm gonna kill this man. And Athena's like, maybe don't. Use your words. Don't be rational. And he's like, alright, I can do that. Listen here, you whino bitch faced coward. You know what? He's, he's still our boy. He's

• 45:14Liv Albert?

  He knows himself. Yeah, he knows himself.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  He's consistent, and I appreciate that about him.

• 45:23Liv Albert?

  Well, um, this has been, uh, too much fun, not least because now, um, we're gonna have to chat offline about a whole ass series about the Odyssey as colonialist propaganda. Um, in a good way though, like in a fun way, listeners. It'll be fun, I promise. And also, we have to look, we have to look closer at the Iliad as a piece of anti-war.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:47Liv Albert?

  I really wanna do that. This is, if, if there was ever a time to do that, it's now. Um, but until then, I'm gonna read the credits aloud with Michaela sitting here for the first time ever. And again, that's weird.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  I'll just stare at you.

• 46:01Liv Albert?

  And note to the listeners, because I've caught it afterwards every time, but when we're doing this live, I'm not gonna say her old last name.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Are you still saying my old last?

• 46:11Liv Albert?

  But I catch it. But then I, I say it because it comes out of me immediately and then I catch it.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  That's so fair.

• 46:17Liv Albert?

  Let's talk about myths, baby. It's written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pangoesh is the Hermes to my Olympians. The producer who's producing the shit out of this. Listen to the podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Sign up for our newsletter, which I didn't remember to send out last month, but which I will again, because we have literally so much going on. Like honestly, there's, there's a lot happening. It's, I feel like I've seemed very quiet lately, but that's because that my brain is so full of secrets. Um,

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Okay, Gretchen Weaver.

• 46:57Liv Albert?

  I'm Liv, and I love this shit. Michaela, what's your sign off again?

• 47:01Speaker 01

  I, I'm Michaela and I'm here too.

• 47:06Liv Albert?

  I forgot that's what it was, but it was that and we need to keep it forever now.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  No.

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