Episode 513: Emily Hickey: Scaling Brands, Marketing That Converts, and Building What Lasts

What actually makes a brand break through and stay relevant long after the hype fades? I wanted to explore that question with someone who sees behind the scenes of real growth, not just what looks good online. In this episode, I sit down with Emily Hickey to talk about what performance marketing really means, why specificity matters more than volume, and how the smartest brands focus on what is already working instead of chasing every new idea. We get into product positioning, influencer strategy, why hero products matter, and how marketing decisions connect directly to identity and behavior. We also talk about fitness, discipline, GLP-1 medications, and why building a business often forces you to build yourself at the same time. Emily Hickey is the co-founder and CEO of Chief Detective, a performance marketing agency working with leading consumer brands across Meta, Google, and social platforms. She also advises companies like Goop and Weight Watchers, helping leadership teams think clearly about growth, positioning, and longevity. What We Discuss: (00:00) Why Most Brands Stall Even With Great Marketing (07:18) What It Actually Means To Be A Top Meta Agency (14:42) Why Product Strategy Matters More Than Ads (22:05) The Biggest Mistake Early Brands Make Online (30:11) How Influencer Marketing Really Drives Sales (38:47) Why Winners Win And How To Spot Them Early (47:26) How Fitness Builds Confidence Beyond The Gym (56:02) The Real Link Between Personal Growth And Business Success Thank you to our sponsors: Prolon: Get 30% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their 5-Day Program! Just visit https://prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN and use code JENNIFERCOHEN to claim your discount and your bonus gift. Therasage: Head over to therasage.com http://therasage.com/ and use code Be Bold for 15% off Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com http://airdoctorpro.com/ and use promo code HUSTLE40 for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Magic Mind: Head over to www http://www/.magicmind.com http://magicmind.com//jen and use code Jen at checkout. Momentous: Shop this link https://www.livemomentous.com/?srsltid=AfmBOorDUIZz3psr1Qsq_n1yE8_6JTq_QUFabOO9lH65HDEXCIoJOPLj and use code Jen for 20% off Manna Vitality: Visit mannavitality.com and use code JENNIFER20 for 20% off your order Amp fit is the perfect balance of tech and training, designed for people who do it all and still want to feel strong doing it. Check it out at joinamp.com/jen https://www.joinamp.com/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=in-stream&utm_campaign=jen Find more from Jen: Website: www.jennifercohen.com https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen https://www.instagram.com/therealjencohen/ Books: www.jennifercohen.com/books https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Emily Hickey: Website: www.chiefdetective.com http://www.chiefdetective.com Instagram: @emilyhickey_official https://www.instagram.com/emilyhickey_official/ YouTube: Emily Hickey: Growth Series https://www.youtube.com/@emilyhickey_official

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi guys, this is Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

• 0:07Jen Cohen?

  In this episode of Habits and Hustle, I sit down with Emily Hickey, co-founder and CEO of Chief Detective, one of the top performance marketing agencies working with leading consumer brands across Meta, Instagram, and beyond. Emily is one of the sharpest strategic thinkers I've come across when it comes to branding, growth, and what actually drives consumer behavior. We break down what performance marketing really means and why most brands waste time trying to fix what isn't working instead of doubling down on what is, and how the smartest companies think about positioning, product strategy, and identity. Emily explains core principles like winners win, spear point marketing, and why specificity always beats broad messaging.

• 0:52Jen Cohen?

  If you care about scaling a brand or understanding modern marketing with clarity, this conversation delivers. By the end, you'll see why I think of Emily as the Kara Swisher of marketing: direct, incisive, and unwilling to sugarcoat what actually works. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed having it.

• 1:19Jen Cohen?

  Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therasage. Their Trillight Panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where, honestly, I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therasage Trillight.

• 2:05Jen Cohen?

  Everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to therasage.com right now and use code BBOULDS for 15% off. This code will work site-wide. Again, head over to therasage, T-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E.com, and use code BBOULDS for 15% off any of their products.

• 2:40Jen Cohen?

  Today, we have a really good podcast. If you're into entrepreneurship, business, personal branding, self-improvement, personal growth, this is the podcast for you. We have Emily Hickey. I tracked her down on Instagram because she's so smart. I was like, we have to have this brilliant brain on the podcast. And Emily, by the way, she's a co-founder and CEO of Chief Detective. It's one of the top ad agencies for social media, for Meta, for Instagram. She's like, she's like doing like all the things for some of the biggest brands we have, we know. So we're going to get into it. So, hi Emily.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Hi Jen.

• 3:19Jen Cohen?

  How's that for a little intro?

• 3:21Speaker 02

  It was incredible. Thank you.

• 3:22Jen Cohen?

  Oh, my God. You're welcome. You're very welcome. So, we're going to do a shot. We do these Magic Mind shots on the podcast.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:28Jen Cohen?

  You know, you'd be a good person to ask. So, Magic Mind is a performance shot. Have you ever heard of it?

• 3:32Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:33Jen Cohen?

  Okay, so, these are healthy shots. So, they have like, look at the ingredients. You tell me what you think. But we just do it because it helps you with focus, being more alert, being more, you know, kind of locked into the podcast.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Awesome. Amen.

• 3:46Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, you're right. Okay, shake, shake. And it's like, and you're a healthy person. I mean, you live and tell your life and the whole thing. And you lost five pounds. Yeah, go away. Exactly. Cheers. Okay, I'm going to drink only half because I've had so many of these. I'm going to be like, hmm. I think I'm only supposed to have like two, but I have like five a day.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Should I do, should I take the whole?

• 4:06Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, you should. It's not, it's, it only has a little bit of caffeine, but it's green tea. If it, the caffeine it has, it's really good.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  It's good.

• 4:14Jen Cohen?

  These, so by the way, these are, these people, not as a shameless plug, seriously, they are doing really well. They're like, they're, they're, they're crushing it. I was gonna ask you about them afterwards, but.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Okay, cool.

• 4:26Jen Cohen?

  I want to ask you about the branding. And then, by the way, I want to let you know, it is very hot in here. If you haven't noticed.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  And I run cold.

• 4:36Jen Cohen?

  I run really cold. So just, I'm sorry to say that.

• 4:39Speaker 02

  I can handle it. It's okay.

• 4:41Jen Cohen?

  Okay. So Emily, I want you to tell us what exactly, okay, first of all, like, I, we, I, I kind of just said that you do run one of the top agencies, ad agencies for Meta and obviously Instagram. What does that mean? Like, what does Chief Detective do? What is your like specialty? Can you kind of just give a really broad overview?

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 4:59Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  So what, so I run, I co-founded and run this ad agency called Chief Detective. We're, we are a performance marketing agency, meaning that mostly our job is if, if we spend $20,000 a day for a brand, we better make it back that same day. That's what performance marketing is. It's basically same day revenue versus brand marketing, which is a longer time horizon of developing something. So for the most part, we are a performance agency and we manage spend on Meta, which is Instagram and Facebook and Google and Tik Tok and Pinterest, but we also do the creative. So we, we have about 60 employees and probably two thirds of them are sort of the creative studio, which is concepting and developing videos and, you know.

• 5:39Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  So, um, and what it means to be good at it, or, you know, try to be good at it is that, um, with, the way that Meta measures it for an agency is what, what was the brand spending when they started with that agency and what were the returns? And what's that same set of metrics three months later? So how quickly can they, you know, try to drive an improvement on the account? And then how, what's, what's like the average tenure of the engagement? So can they, can they stick around with a client and really help over the longer term? So that's how they measure that. And so in that, you know, by that measurement that we're one of the top agencies on Meta, which is hard.

• 6:17Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:19Jen Cohen?

  I finally, so, so first of all, how many agencies are there that does, I feel like there's a lot of people who say they do this, right?

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I don't know how many it is, but it's a lot.

• 6:28Jen Cohen?

  A lot, right?

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:29Jen Cohen?

  And so like, what if a company, like, what if a person or a company doesn't have a budget for performance marketing? Like, what are some like ways people can, you know, build awareness, gain awareness? Like, how would someone do it if they're just kind of starting out and they don't even have the ability to even do what you're doing?

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Yep. To not even spend a dollar.

• 6:51Jen Cohen?

  Well, you tell me what, like, yeah, I mean, not to even spend it. Like, let's talk about from inception and like the different like tiers and levels, right? Because if I'm somebody who, you know, has a consumer product, how would I get it out there? How would I build awareness if I don't spend money? Do I need to spend money?

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Yep. I don't think you need to, but I mean, some of the best, we don't live in that side of the pond. You know, we don't take on, for the most part, we don't take on early-stage companies. Every once in a while, we'll take a bet on something because we kind of fall for it.

• 7:20Jen Cohen?

  Right, okay.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  But for the most part, we come in when they're doing about 20 million in revenue or upwards, anywhere 20 million plus in revenue. And their stock and they want to scale it, that's when we tend to come in. My personal experience isn't with that early stage, but when I was building operating companies, that was always what I was doing was early, super early startup.

• 7:39Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  And I, I think at that point, I think that these channels are a gift because they are so flammable, as you know, you've done this. So you've got the best marketer wins. You know, it's the scrappy people who are fearless. And first of all, you have to have a good product. I think that's really underestimated is that the first part of your marketing strategy actually is your product. So are you structuring it in a way that it has a natural hook? Like, your hook is clear in terms of fitness as a microcosm, and that applies to everybody's life, and it's mass market, and it, it's a hook. You know, you, you, like, some people, I think, just have a nose for marketing, the same way that I think people have a nose for sales. And like, it's almost like a, I think it runs in families, actually.

• 8:20Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 8:21Speaker 02

  It's a DNA trait where some people are really good at marketing and some people are really good at sales. And those people tend to just kind of have an instinct for what Is gonna click with people and they they don't they they're not attached to their own ideas. I think that's another success quality, like they're willing to just workshop and try things and try things and try things. Whereas I like you meet a lot of people who are so attached to their own idea intellectually that they won't they won't they won't objectively look at what they're doing and learn from their efforts and get better at it. That that's a real thing, too. So I think some of the best things that we look at, the founder sat down and just did their own creative and they did it on no budget and they just let's say like you could go run out in the street and interview people and all of a sudden it's good content and people you you just have to have a nose for it and you have to be willing to do it.

• 9:05Jen Cohen?

  Well, I find it interesting. You said something. You said that that you have to have a good product, which is interesting because I've seen so many, like especially in the last few years with social media.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:15Jen Cohen?

  That products don't even matter anymore. It is only about the marketing. It is only about the fact that like if you have an audience to sell to.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:23Jen Cohen?

  And like you could have a subpar product and still crush in in sales and build. I mean, I can't tell you how many products I get like sent to me.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:34Jen Cohen?

  That I'm like, this is garbage.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  I know.

• 9:36Jen Cohen?

  But like, but their branding is really on point and their packaging looks really good. So but you think it's more you think you have to have a good product, though?

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Well, I think the well, no, it's a good point. The the product itself doesn't need to be good. It's the positioning of the product.

• 9:51Jen Cohen?

  Okay, so there's a difference.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:53Jen Cohen?

  So that's the thing, right? Like we're and it's so cluttered, right? Especially in like, let's just use fitness, health, wellness, like you do. I mean, Emily has a great resume, like you have what Goop? Who else do you work with?

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Weight Watchers. So as a as an agency, we work with about thirty five to forty companies. But then certain of these companies I I jump in as like an advisor adjunct member of the executive team. And so the ones I'm deeply involved in are Goop and Weight Watchers and Ursula Major, Frank and Eileen.

• 10:23Jen Cohen?

  Who are they? I saw that. I saw that on your bio.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Frank and Eileen, you don't know them? That's a pretty big company.

• 10:27Jen Cohen?

  I know. Maybe I'm just like.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  It's apparel. Yeah, she's in LA. It's a female founder. It's in LA. It's it's sort of they're really known for their button up shirts.

• 10:36Jen Cohen?

  That's why I don't wear button up shirts. Maybe that's why. I wear like gym clothes twenty four hours a day.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:42Jen Cohen?

  And I got dressed up for you. I put a belt on. So there that's for you. Okay. But what I was gonna say is that so it's not so much the product you're saying. It's more about the packaging of the like the positioning, like all these what are like, give me an example.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  So it depends on your goal because I actually, what we do, right? We, we try to think about things as a hundred year brand. And in that case, the product really matters because Oh, that's for longevity. Yeah. I mean, in terms of like, like with apparel, probably the biggest lifetime value trigger is fit. Right? So if you buy a pair of leggings or whatever, Yeah. And you don't, and they don't fit, or they make you, like, they're not flattering. You, you just are not going to buy, that's case closed. Like, you're not going to buy them again. Yeah. With, with women's apparel, or really any apparel, the delivery of the product against the promise is very important. So if you're promising these leggings make your butt look good, they better do it. You know what I mean?

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Otherwise, it's a one and done purchase and you, so you can, and that happens a lot on social is these product based companies get stood up and then they're gone, or their, their market share isn't defensible. Right. Because the product, they don't understand why people bought it in the first place and they don't deliver on that. So like Home Depot, this has become a really core example for me is like their garden center business is like this. It's the biggest part of Home Depot, which I didn't know, but it is the garden center. It's like this $20 billion a year business. And the way that it didn't, it wasn't always like that, but they, the team did a really good job obsessing over how like, I don't know if you, I, I've tried to garden and it's been a disaster. So I'll go spend like, Yes. It's hard. Like you go spend like a thousand dollars and then it doesn't work and you never spend another penny. It's like, why bother of all the time and the expense?

• 12:21Speaker 02

  So they realized that because their repeat rates were so horrible. And so they, they started to obsess over genetically modifying the seeds to make it easy to succeed. And that it would stick and that it would grow. And one of their criteria for it, for those seeds was what they called flower power, which was that it visually looked so good in your garden that the payoff against what you're trying to get is like super amplified. Do you know what I mean? So whatever you're promising, I think that's a good way to think about building a hundred year brand is like, okay, this is our product promise. We, we promise that our clothes are always going to fit and that they're going to make you look good and that they're going to be durable or whatever you're looking for in your workout clothes. And like, If you're the one to deliver on that the most, then you win the right to their next purchase, right? That's what you're trying to do as a brand. Do I win almost like this

• 13:06Speaker 02

  annuity of their future revenue streams? And the other thing that's in Lululemon, actually, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. It was a recent example. Like, what's the central product innovation is very important. And when you

• 13:18Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. I was just waiting, just finished what you're gonna say, and I was gonna bring something up. Go ahead.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, it's, if you think about people's purchasing, you don't, you probably, first of all, you're probably getting gifted everything, but you don't need more workout clothes, I'm guessing. You've probably got drawers full of this. So what makes people purchase is emotional. I don't need it, but I want it, either because there's some zippy new feature, or because it adds to my identity, you know?

• 13:44Jen Cohen?

  It's interesting you say that. So, okay, Lululemon is a great example, because I find it to be tired.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:50Jen Cohen?

  Right?

• 13:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:51Jen Cohen?

  Very tired. And then you have now, let's say, let's go with ALO, right? Because ALO has become the new Lululemon that I think, I think that's become tired also, but they're now going into luxury, which is a whole other situation. Did you see that?

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I did see that.

• 14:04Jen Cohen?

  And it's interesting, because they've done, I think, an incredible job of like, you know, knocking Lululemon off its, you know, pedestal.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:14Jen Cohen?

  And coming in as like, kind of like that brand, like that, the one that's very generic, the kind of like generic with fitness clothes. You have a million companies, but that one's like really good at it.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:24Jen Cohen?

  Because they have good fashions, they have good, good styles. But what I always find interesting is their qual, they're not the greatest in quality.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:33Jen Cohen?

  Right? It does, it's like a one season, two season, it loses its kind of like thing. But they're, they're charging a fortune.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:42Jen Cohen?

  And they have now, they've been able to brand extend into like different studios, into luxury.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:47Jen Cohen?

  Like, in, in your opinion. Why do you think, like, what did they do differently than Lululemon? Who's kind of doing the same thing, but they, is it just because they didn't innovate fast enough? They, they lost their cool factor? How, like, why did they lose the cool factor? Why did ALO be, like, I, I, as a case study?

• 15:08Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 15:08Jen Cohen?

  I'm curious to ask you because they were able to, like, get out of the clutter and be that brand that everyone, like, even men who don't work out know about.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Yep, yep.

• 15:19Jen Cohen?

  Right?

• 15:19Speaker 02

  And the other two, and they're Beyond and Viori.

• 15:21Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, Beyond and Viori did a great, Beyond just got bought.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  Oh, did they?

• 15:25Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, for like 400 million. Who bought them? Levi's.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 15:29Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:30Jen Cohen?

  Beyond is, I know why Beyond does well, though. They're very comfortable, like, the, the actual, like, they're, and they, they fit well.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:38Jen Cohen?

  That's why, but I don't, that's not the only reason, but I think that's at least you feel good wearing their clothes.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:45Jen Cohen?

  Right? The Viori also did a great job.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 15:48Jen Cohen?

  And they're crushing it.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  Yep, they're killing it. So I think Viori extended into lifestyle the most effectively out of all of them. Like, when I travel, well, at the whole, I feel like the whole airport, you know what I mean? Is filled with people and you see the little rectangle. I think the external branding really worked for them, which not everybody does.

• 16:05Jen Cohen?

  Yep.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  And they nailed, they, they moved it into lifestyle, I think, the most effectively. But look, what, what you're saying is, is true, is true for everybody.

• 16:14Jen Cohen?

  The Viori, like, yeah, that Aviator Nation does that, too. It did very well, but usually it could look tacky.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, you gotta do it just so, but I mean, and also, what, what does it stand for? Who do you become when you wear the brand? That's a really important thing, and I think that Lululemon lost sight of that. So it's two things. One is the product innovation. You've always got to stay ahead of her. And it's like, there was, Hermes is always like the case study for doing that because they put their stake in the ground of how do you, how do you change but be the same? And that's always like core pillar for their assortments. How do we change but be the same? The essence of what we're doing is the same, but it always feels modern. It's always like the way they say it is, is if it's too focused on nostalgia, it's saying that there's something wrong with today. It's saying that yesterday was better. But if you focus on heritage, you're embracing the present. And so you're always bringing excitement to the present day and how you articulate yourself visually in the present day.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  And it like, and I think Lululemon needs to, they need to figure that out in many brands. It's not just them, everybody get, they're, they're one of the biggest, you know, consumer brands in the world at this point. And that, I think it's them, Nike and Adidas, like they're big, you know?

• 17:17Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, they're really big.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  But in this day and age with social and all these upstart, there's no barrier to entry. You could start something today and you could take a run at them. You know, there's no, it is hard to protect your customer in this day and age. And the, one of your biggest offenses to do is, is product strategy. And if it, but to do that effectively, you have to understand what you were doing for them in the first place. So we stand for quality, we stand for it being flattering, but you also stand for it making her cool. I think that they, when they went out to all those yoga studios and they were on all the coolest instructors, like they, they, they gave her an identity to step into, which is, you know,

• 17:53Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  health as a lifestyle.

• 17:54Jen Cohen?

  Yep.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  And it's part of her achievement oriented concept of herself. She's optimizing everything about her life. That's one of the things, like you,

• 18:02Jen Cohen?

  Yep.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  It's one of the core tools that as all these achievement oriented women are optimizing their decor, I mean, everything about their lives. There's ambition in it. You know what I mean? And I think that they lost, I don't feel ambitious when I wear Lululemon.

• 18:15Jen Cohen?

  Right, but it's interesting because you, you mentioned that one program that kind of put them on the map when they, all the Lulu ambassadors back when they started like 25 years ago, whatever it was, right? Again, why doesn't it work today? It's still the same thing. You're going after the hot, quote unquote, like the cool, hot, trendy, whatever, trainers, coaches, whatever. You're using them as ambassadors, you get their audience, they promote it, they're wearing it. Why does that, because that is about building and kind of creating a community, which we all hear is so important. Why did it, why did it flatline?

• 18:47Speaker 02

  I don't, so I don't know if they're still doing it, but I'll tell you what like so.

• 18:50Jen Cohen?

  I thought they were. I see it in the stores.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  So let me tell you the story and tell me what you think about this.

• 18:54Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  So a friend of mine who I am doing this brand, brand repositioning thing that I do with her and her company. She lives in Marin. She's a CMO. There are four stores next to each other in Marin. Like this is a perfect, it's Lululemon, it's Viori, it's Beyond, and it's ALO. And they're like all in a row. And you know what I'm talking about? There's like that off the highway thing in Marin. So Beyond bombs into town. They're the new guy on the block. Those three are already there. And so they came in and they did a two week partnership with the coolest yoga studio. It's called NOW or something like that. I can't remember what it was called. But anyways, there's like the Chachi yoga studio in Marin.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  And I'm sure that this is just their playbook. Okay, this is what we do when we open up a store, you know? So they went in, they did a two week partnership with the studio. And it was the week leading up to the store opening and then the week after. That was the two weeks. And they, there was signage, they had co-branded classes, you know, I'm sure like they're whatever it was. And they probably had gear and whatever else. And then they took video in the studio. And then when they did the store opening, they invited everybody and they, they did all these like produced videos, edited out videos from this, from the classes. And it was supposedly packed and she said she spent like a thousand dollars there that night. And she's been back three times, gotten her son hooked on it and like she doesn't go into the other one. So I, how much energy, you know, things lose energy, you know, as they age.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  And you've got to go fluff the pillows and it's, it feels to me like their product innovation isn't there. They probably lost a lot of the team. That's what a lot of the comments I got on Instagram. That's hard too, because and then everyone's like, oh, they created Lululemon, so they get stolen away. So you lose team, it gets hard to hang on to talent.

• 20:37Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  And there just doesn't feel like there's energy in the product innovation. I don't think it's the cool brand anymore and they're probably not using that kind of creativity at the community level. And I, I don't, I mean, it's there for them. They can go get it, you know, go get it back. But it, right now, it feels like they're in a lull.

• 20:52Jen Cohen?

  How much of it is luck also? Or like what just? You know, like you never really, you can do all the planning in the world and it just doesn't and do everything right.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:02Jen Cohen?

  And it just doesn't work.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:04Jen Cohen?

  It's still flat lines.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:05Jen Cohen?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 21:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:07Jen Cohen?

  Like, it's interesting, like, Viori did a good job, but, you know, like, I, there's been a lot of these other brands I see. They're like, they, they, they look better, they're great. And like, it's just like, can't get, can't get arrested.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you don't think it's a product problem? You think they just don't know how to.

• 21:22Jen Cohen?

  I think there's a lot of, I think that there's like, like, I think Aloe does it really well. I keep on going back to that for the, for the girl, for women. Like, I think Viori, what I like about its coat, a lot of men and women love it and like, they travel with it. There's a lot of leisure stuff. I agree with that. Like, at the mall here, at the, at Century City Mall, you have kind of a, in Marin, you have in like the one line, you have Beyond, Aloe, Viori, Lulu, and there's like another one. I can't remember, I can't even remember what it is, right?

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:53Jen Cohen?

  And Aloe's the one that's always has people in and out, in and out, all day, all day, all day. Beyond, you can shoot a cannon through that place.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:02Jen Cohen?

  I don't know why, but like, they just got sold. But, you know, Viori, ha, it's, it's a vibe.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:10Jen Cohen?

  It's about a vibe, I feel.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:12Jen Cohen?

  You know, like, how do you create a good, partnerships, events, whatever?

• 22:16Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 22:17Jen Cohen?

  I'm just wondering, I mean, I know I'm going down this tangent of stuff because I think the fitness and wellness and health space is like a trillion dollar industry.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:27Jen Cohen?

  And it's just never ending.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Never ending.

• 22:29Jen Cohen?

  Like, it's never ending.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  Never ending, yeah.

• 22:31Jen Cohen?

  When I finished, when I sold my app situation, I was like, I thought, okay, like, how many more apps in fitness can there be? Like, God, like, five minute workouts, six minute, please. And everyone, and like, I'm like, and now, since then, there's been like 50 other apps that sold for 100 million, 80 million, 600 million. I'm like, you don't even have to reinvent the wheel.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  No, you don't.

• 22:53Jen Cohen?

  Like, that's what I find interesting.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree. I mean, it, that space is like infinite.

• 22:59Jen Cohen?

  It's infinite.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:06Jen Cohen?

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• 23:50Jen Cohen?

  It has hundreds of different workouts: strength, Pilates, mobility, recovery, and it's so easy to use. It's literally been a game changer for me. I don't have to plan my workouts or wonder what I'm going to do. I just turn on my AMP and it takes care of the rest. And as a mom and a business owner and a podcaster, that convenience means I stay consistent. And, you know, strength training, especially for women, is so key for my hormone balance, longevity, and of course, confidence. So you can see why I'm obsessed. Go to joinamp.com/gen to learn more. That's joinamp.com/gen.

• 24:33Jen Cohen?

  Because strength should fit your life.

• 24:42Jen Cohen?

  Okay, so you said Viori. What else have you seen? Like, what brands in that space have you thought has done very well in personal positioning, branding, marketing? It doesn't have to be, it could be anything, by the way. It doesn't have to be in the... Yeah. Um.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  Well, you work with Goop. What do you think of them now?

• 25:00Jen Cohen?

  I'm obsessed with Goop. I'm wearing Gwyn.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:03Jen Cohen?

  Oh, yeah, she has a new, yes.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:04Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:05Jen Cohen?

  That's nice, nice sweater.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  I mean, look, I think, I mean, I'm deeply in it.

• 25:09Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I know. You're like in the weeds over there. I know.

• 25:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, you kind of fall in love and now it's all you, you know, like.

• 25:14Jen Cohen?

  That they, they did a fantastic job from, from the get go, though.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:18Jen Cohen?

  You know, with that brand.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  That's right. I mean, if you, this is why I love Goop. They're like, it, it, it is a truly feminist brand and I'm, it's not that I'm some turbo strident feminist because I'm actually, I'm actually maybe quietly a feminist.

• 25:33Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  You know, I actually, I think every population deserves to be activated. It's not like, but what I love about Goop is that it really is about supporting and equipping women to live their richest life with the greatest degree of agency and validity and that there, if, like, we did this whole brand exercise last summer and it, the, the whys of that brand, why does that brand exist, right? First of all, is, is to support women in pursuing themselves, you know, and that, that is a concept that you and I are probably, that's probably our Venn diagram is bullseye, right? Is just the pursuit of self, you know, and that that is what that brand is about. And it's also, secondly, about getting rid of the cultural headwinds that might prevent women from having the most honest pursuit of themselves, whether

• 26:18Speaker 02

  it's about divorce or sexuality or whatever, you know, just trying to, to clear the mud out of the water so that women really can just go for it, whatever, whatever they want to be, you know? And I think that it, it also is a role modeling brand of like, what, what is modern womanhood about? What is modern feminism? It's not like it was, I don't know if we're around the same age, I'm 51. So when I was first working, it was in the 90s and I, I was often the only woman in the room and it, like, it felt like a little bit of a, I guess, a fight, you know? Now, I don't think that's the case at all.

• 26:50Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  You know, so now what is, like, we're probably fighting against ourselves in a lot of ways and like, what, what's in our way, you know, and what is the conversation around? Maybe it's about restoring softness, you know, to being a strong woman. And that's something that, you know, we, Gwyneth and I have talked a lot about and it, that, her, her, her whole vision around women is just really resonates with me. And I think she has been a force for changing kind of cultural conversations. And I think that brand.

• 27:15Jen Cohen?

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, right? And she doesn't get, yeah.

• 27:18Jen Cohen?

  And by the way, it was so interesting. It's like, You never would have thought that when it started. Like, people probably like poo-pooed her, like, oh, Gwyneth Paltrow, what does she know about, like, business or branding? I mean, I think she surprised everybody.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, she's like, I think-

• 27:32Jen Cohen?

  Honestly, like, I was like, I mean, and she, it's like, it's like, there's like, it's been a while. How long has it been around already?

• 27:38Speaker 02

  It's been almost 15 years.

• 27:39Jen Cohen?

  I mean, that to me is crazy.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  I know.

• 27:41Jen Cohen?

  It feels like it was just yesterday.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  I know. And if you think about, if you, this is the thing with awareness and with branding. It is really hard to create saturated levels of awareness.

• 27:51Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  Like, and if you ask anyone, ask any woman in this country, name a lifestyle brand, I bet you anything, they would say Martha Stewart and Gwyneth and Goop. And I bet they couldn't think of a third. And so to have accomplished that level of awareness is, but then also the trust of like,

• 28:07Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  Okay, I need a recommendation for something. Everybody trusts what they recommend.

• 28:12Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  So that intersection of awareness and trust is very, it really is hard to do.

• 28:18Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  And I'm just, it's one of those brands, I think it's just a good guy brand. I'm glad it exists. I think brands change, I feel the same way about Weight Watchers. I feel like it's a good guy brand. There are certain brands that believe in their customers, that champion their customers, I think, live on the noble side of life, you know? I have this thing I'm obsessed with from this poet of like, he was talking, Seamus Heaney is my favorite poet.

• 28:40Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 28:40Speaker 02

  But he says, I wish you hadn't read him, it's just, it's beautiful. He's a beautiful, beautiful writer. And he said that when he, he came from this like farm family in Northern Ireland. He was like, he felt guilty when he fell in love with poetry, but he, because they dug with their hands, you know, it's his father and, you know, he was digging with his pen, is how he put it. But he was like, you know, from the, from the, from the first line that you write, poetry lands on the side of life. And it has to do with the angularity of the words and the syntax and the surprising things that you put together. And because its whole point is to surface the sensitive sides of our nature and convince us that that's the right side of our nature in the face of so much that would tell us it's the wrong side in the world.

• 29:20Jen Cohen?

  Wow, yeah.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  That, and I think brands, so to him, you know, there was a, there was a why of the vocation of being a poet. But I feel like- What people do who build brands, there's a why of that vocation, too. I think that there's a, you could use it in a way to make the world better. You know, that you, you help build the, the reason that we have so many family values in the United States. We're all focused on family values. We grew up watching Growing Pains and all the, you know, it's like in our media, you know, like we've been bred that. You know, but it also is in all the ads that we watch on the Super Bowl. And like it's, it's in the fabric of the advertising that we receive is the values that we all share.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  And so especially right now, when everyone's fighting and, you know, I, I think that brands actually can play this institutionalized role of landing us all on the side of life and making, helping us live on the noble side of our natures. I really think that. And I think that Goop is one of those brands. I think Weight Watchers is one of the, they're, they're brands that can help us live in that set of values. You know what I mean?

• 30:20Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  So.

• 30:21Jen Cohen?

  And there are people who've stayed true, like look at Tide, right?

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Yes, I'm obsessed with Tide.

• 30:25Jen Cohen?

  You know, like Tide, like, but they've done a great job of keeping their position for, oh, God knows how many years, right?

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Decades.

• 30:32Jen Cohen?

  Decades.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  They've been the dominant in the category for decades.

• 30:35Jen Cohen?

  What do you, so what do you think they've done in simple terms? What have they done exceptionally well?

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 30:41Jen Cohen?

  To like, keep their market share?

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Yep. So it's the perfect example of going back to the active where it's product strategy and it's marketing. So if you think about, CPG is really good at this. They know what they have promised to the customer. So Tide is about fighting 100% stains, making clothes smell good and turning laundry into an act of maternal love. It is all, it is, its positioning in the market is the robust premium family detergent. Right? And the reason, if it never changed its product, so if we walked into the grocery store, we look at the shelves and it's just same old Tide, they would lose their market share. But their collabs and their innovative new flavors of Tide is constant, but they also go back to that marketing ladder. So when they do a collab, it's with Fabreeze because they know that their central promise is to make clothes smell good.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Or when they evolve a new type, it's sport. Because as I'm sure you know with your kids, the entire American family now revolves around the kids' sports. And they're all about family. So they have to position into sports. So now if Lulu understood. You know, self consciously, this is our promise to the customer. We keep her looking and feeling cool. And like, this is an empowering part of her identity. We keep the best fabrics and we constantly innovate on making her legs look better and better and better in those leggings.

• 31:53Jen Cohen?

  You know, that's okay. So what would you say if you were working with a Lululemon, if they were your client, what would you say the first thing that they should do to start, you know, becoming relevant?

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Product innovation, technical innovation, obsess over finding a fabric that suddenly makes you look so fit and trim. And, you know, that when you look in the mirror, you are so psyched about it, you know? So I think they've, and they've got to put a name on that and a handle on that, you know, whether they take their line and bring it to something new, right? Or it could also be colorways, right? That's a lot of like, color is the easiest thing in the world. It's the easiest way to drive product strategy and is so under leveraged, but you've got to keep the colorways rolling out. Otherwise, people don't buy it. They're not going to buy their 10th pair of black leggings.

• 32:36Jen Cohen?

  You know what? That is exactly true because why I was buying so much aloe stuff was because every day they'd have another tone or color that I liked. I'm like, oh, that's bright red, not the dull red. Okay, I'll get that. Oh, there's an orange that's a little bit more of this. Like, I have about a 47,000 pairs of pants and I don't wear any of them anymore, but that I just keep on buying because I, I'm like the shiny ball. It's a nicer color.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:04Jen Cohen?

  They did a great, that's, I think that's a really good point.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. It drives emotional purchasing because you don't need more leggings.

• 33:11Jen Cohen?

  That's 100% true. Okay, how about this one? Poppy versus Ollie Pop, right? Both of them are gonna, like, one just sold for, what, a couple, one billion and a half, I don't, a lot, billion point four or something. The other one's gonna, could sell, I think, today for a billion.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 33:25Jen Cohen?

  But I think Poppy kind of like went, came up a little bit higher.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 33:29Jen Cohen?

  Right? But Ollie Pop was out maybe a couple of years earlier.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 33:33Jen Cohen?

  What do you think, why do you think Poppy, like, kind of, has been like, won the game a little bit, or so far?

• 33:40Speaker 02

  I don't, I actually don't know because I haven't studied those and I don't drink, like, I just started.

• 33:45Jen Cohen?

  I don't drink it either, by the way.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. My, my husband buys the Poppies for the kids. But I, I mean, I would guess it was a combination of distribution strategy, for one thing, and then social. I bet that social flammability was a big part of that.

• 33:58Jen Cohen?

  That was what I was going to ask you. What part of this, or how important is influencer marketing?

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Beyond, beyond important.

• 34:06Jen Cohen?

  So is it that, what's the, what's the most effective strategy for influencer marketing? Is it white listing? Is it collaborations? Is it just real? Like what, what have you seen works the best?

• 34:18Speaker 02

  So the typical, I think the, it is a volume game for the, for the most part. So because it is hard to predict who is going to work. So typically you're putting together like, almost like a pyramid construct of, okay, we're going to have our plank, base plank of the pyramid, which is just spray and pray.

• 34:35Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Like, we're going to get this. It's an awareness, it's top of funnel marketing. Like, so let's get this out to as many people. You gift it out to thousands of people a month. And like, like I was talking to someone recently about a very big beauty brand strategy for this. And it's pretty like typical for something that's really scaled is it's, let's say, 5,000 people are gifted this thing a month. Some percentage of those are actually going to post because they're, you're not getting paid. Right? It's just organic gifting.

• 35:02Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  Please that you're, you're hoping they post it. Let's say 10% posted, whatever.

• 35:07Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Some tiny percentage of those is going to, is like totally going to hit. And then you dig in with them and try to build on that success. They, for some reason are a good avatar for this brand. So that's sort of your base plank. It's a volume game. And then you kind of move it up to your very top macro influencers who might have millions of followers and are really expensive, but you think that they're a good chosen avatar for the brand, that they really represent the identity. Because again, who do you become when you wear one of these brands? And I think that top of the influencer period, it's like, that's an important way to show who you become. So that person really represents this cool, amazing woman who, who we think you become when you wear these clothes or whatever. And so, you know, I just think it's a, it's a tiered strategy, but it's both, it's, it's

• 35:52Speaker 02

  creating awareness, it's pulling something into culture, you know, and saying that this is relevant and modern and people like you are using it. And then, of course, like that they have influence on their own followers or, you know, like you influence your followers, like they trust you, you know?

• 36:08Jen Cohen?

  A lot of people, though, I will say, you think they have a lot of influence, but they don't convert into numbers.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:13Jen Cohen?

  You know, I know a couple of brands that I was working with as a strategist for them. And they were adamant about having a few people come on board that had like three million followers, that one had five million followers, and they were charging astronomical amounts of money for them to be in partnership. And I was like, those aren't, those aren't your people.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:36Jen Cohen?

  I'd rather you take that money and go, you know, wider with like micros that have 50,000, 10,000 followers.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 36:44Jen Cohen?

  And you will get way more bang for your buck and spend way more, like way less money. Because I also think the bigger the number of the influencer, the less engagement they have.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:55Jen Cohen?

  And less people, like eyes are on them because that's what happens with Instagram and Meta, right? The more, like you didn't have to pay for your visibility a lot of times.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:04Jen Cohen?

  Sometimes not, but anyway, long story short, they didn't want to listen, blah, blah, blah. They went and spent like a million dollars on this person.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 37:13Jen Cohen?

  Something ridiculous, okay?

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 37:16Jen Cohen?

  They ended up selling, I kid you not, I kid you not, $47 worth of product. $47 worth of product.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  That's awful.

• 37:26Jen Cohen?

  Can you imagine?

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:28Jen Cohen?

  Okay, but, so I said, let's just do a little experiment. Let's take these 10 girls that I, that I really liked, and let's do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They sold $460,000 worth of product, and they spent almost no money.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:44Jen Cohen?

  So the point is like, I think this is a big, I think a lot of this is like a ruse, right? People assume, because they see a big number, oh, this is going to be our, that's going to be our cash cow, that's going to be our like, our panacea. And I've yet to see very few people, like, there's certain people who convert, like, there's, like, obviously Gwyneth is amazing, right? Like, you shouldn't, you don't even need any influencers because she's like, you know, She's amazing.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 38:11Jen Cohen?

  Jennifer Aniston I see does very, she, she crushes it for all the brands just because she does.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 38:17Jen Cohen?

  Many, many celebrities or many, many people who have these big names and these big followers, they're not converting even a little.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:25Jen Cohen?

  Like at all. I just, I just got off a call with one of my brands and they were saying they went to this founders thing. And they came back and told me these things and they're, I don't want to say the names because I don't want to be mean, but they said that they all did these experiments with like four of these people that they're like, no one should ever work with them.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 38:42Jen Cohen?

  Because they will never get an, like the return on investment is never there.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:48Jen Cohen?

  I just find all of this stuff to be so interesting.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  It's so interesting. So what's your criteria when you chose those 10 women and they blew up? What was the criteria?

• 38:56Jen Cohen?

  Well, a lot of it is just, I, I like, I watch a lot of people just because I want to see patterns.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 39:04Jen Cohen?

  And a lot of it's my gut, to be honest. Like I think, like when I, when I did this hot five app, most of the people, like what we did was we had five minute workouts.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 39:15Jen Cohen?

  And then you can stack those workouts if you wanted to. So you can do five minutes of abs. Let's say five minutes of glutes, five, so you can do five, 10, 15 minutes if you had the time, or you can do the style of workout. So five minutes of yoga, five minutes of strength training, whatever, right? And you can mix and match. Okay. The other part of it's called hot five was because it was hot people working out, right? Because everybody likes to look, I don't care what you say about body positivity. I can, I can be canceled right now. I don't care. People want to watch other hot people work out.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 39:45Jen Cohen?

  That's what they want to do.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:47Jen Cohen?

  It's motivating for them.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:48Jen Cohen?

  I don't, it's, it maybe that's not PC to say, but that's what it is.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 39:52Jen Cohen?

  That's why you see on Instagram, all these girls who have, you know, they're not fitness coaches. They know nothing about fitness or in like in the science, but they have a zillion people looking at them because guess what? They look good doing it, right? That's just what it is. Let's just call it a spade a spade here, right?

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 40:09Jen Cohen?

  Yep. So on that app, we had, I picked a bunch of these people and. They're now all, every single, every person I picked had like four followers or six followers or like a hundred followers, whatever it was.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 40:22Jen Cohen?

  And now they all have million, each one of these people, million, because it's also like, you have to have like, I have a little bit of a knack, I think, of just like recognizing.

• 40:32Speaker 02

  It's the nose, I know.

• 40:33Jen Cohen?

  It's like, I just have a knack of knowing and then like, and then it's just like, just kind of like, little things like that. So these 10 girls, just to get to your point was, I just saw how people, how they were engaging. It was a little bit unique. It was a little bit more original and different.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 40:49Jen Cohen?

  It was authentic, right? Very authentic. It wasn't too, it wasn't produced, but they were really good at like the jibber jabber.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:58Jen Cohen?

  Right?

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:59Jen Cohen?

  Like, there are some people who are just really good at connecting to their audience.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 41:04Jen Cohen?

  In a way that makes people feel like, you're talking to me, right? And there are other people who are just really shitty at it.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 41:10Jen Cohen?

  But they're really good at like content creation. So I know, I know a lot of people and brands do this, and you probably would see this too, is that brands will hire somebody because they're really good at the content creation and it's kind of used as an ad, so to speak. Like, it's like, instead of using a, you know, a Shy at Day or you or whoever as like an ad agency to create this content, they use these people because they make nice content, but they're not converting for them. And they have a piece of budget for that and then they have a piece of budget for people who are the converters for them. You know what I mean? Like, it's like kind of separated like that. That's what I just find. I find that, that's how I just look at all these things. I think that like, not everyone's

• 41:52Jen Cohen?

  going to be great at the same thing. A lot of times, like, you want to have, like you want, like you said, you want to like, you want to like, basically like, just like flood the market with the stuff.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 42:02Jen Cohen?

  Right?

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 42:03Jen Cohen?

  Tell me, you tell me, like, you know, give me an example of a brand that you've worked with, that you've kind of utilized some of your tricks, like your first principles? Like, how, talk about your first principles.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  So the first principles.

• 42:15Jen Cohen?

  Am I talking too much? Because I was like.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  No, I, I actually am learning from you and I agree with everything you just said, by the way. So what I realize, so I started all this doing consulting. So I spent years building startups and then I, you know, moved on from that.

• 42:29Jen Cohen?

  What was your claim to fame? Like, what company kind of put you on the map?

• 42:32Speaker 02

  As doing this work, I mean Jenny Kane was a big one, I think, in the apparel industry because it was a very successful, it was, for one thing, it was a really big revenue drive. Oh. But it was the creation of the world through the digital ads that I think was so, it was the right brand at the right time and using the channel in a way that I think people hadn't used it before. Okay. You know, that is sort of elevated price point and being willing to create a world like that in kind of a raw way, but that was like driving to something that was relatively expensive and, you know, to show that that actually could be done through Right. a casual social ad campaign. But, um, so yeah, here's an example, the, so the first, the big daddy law of gravity,

• 43:15Speaker 02

  you know, I think that businesses are all basically the same and that if you look under the hood, you often see a lot of the same pieces and they should work the same way. But there's always a lot of confusion when something gets stuck or starts to slow down. And I think you can always go back to these first principles to get re, to figure out what to do. You know, it's reliable, the same way that if I drop something, it's going to fall on the floor because there are, there are physical properties that govern businesses. Okay, yeah. And that help, and I figured these out by screwing up. You know, I spent a long time making idiotic mistakes and overthinking everything. Yes. And then I was like, okay, I need to, I just need to like dumb myself down and let this, let the plane fly the way it wants to. Yeah, yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  And so the first one of those that really is like our, one of our organizing principles of chief detectives that the winners win and they win and they win and they win, period. It just is true. It's like if you, whatever you are doing, right, some of you, you learn it doing content of like, wow, that one really hit. No one cared about this one. There's always asymmetrical results in anything that you do. And I think intellectually, people want things to be symmetrical and thought out and everything else. And I wish I could sell five of these and five of these and five of these and five of these, but that's not how it works. Like if you open up a store, you're going to sell a ton of this one thing and like long tail of everything else. So a lot of companies will try to make that long tail work, but that's not the right thing to do.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  The right thing to do is to go back to that thing that was kicking ass, you know? Right. And figure out how to build on that as signal. So it's, it's an approach of trying to follow the cash of the business. You just dumb it down. And that's why with, you know, With apparel companies, it's relatively easy to figure out your assortment because you're building a portfolio of hero franchises. Okay, that one really worked, the cocoon cardigan at Jenny Kane, or the this, or the this, the Nike Dunk, that, you know, there are things that you want to build on. And then that's where you're driving all your collabs. And it's going to keep, it is so much easier to make the winners produce more than to try to get the medium or the low performers to work better.

• 45:19Jen Cohen?

  Like your hero product, basically.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:22Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. And then just build on that hero product.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:24Jen Cohen?

  Do you think you see that a lot, right? Like, someone does really well in one area and they want to expand. And it's like they're spending all this money and time and effort and all these other things when they should have just stayed in their, in their niche and kind of build on that. I see that all the time.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it happens all the time. And you, you, you know, if you've got to pull a rabbit out of the hat and, and get revenue fast, like, the, the strategy should be, what can we do to sell more of this? This one that's already selling the best, what can we do to sell more of that? And when you think about your product development, what was it about that? Okay, was it that it was about travel? Or was it because it was flattering and it made her legs look better? Or what, what was it about that that we can build on as a franchise to assort, to, to build into the assortment of what that was driving into? Was it, it was stripes? Okay, let's create, let's do more stripes. You know, so it, it is a very overlooked principle. It sounds obvious. It is obvious, but it is so under leveraged, it's shocking.

• 46:19Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  And then this, like, colorways. Okay, that's your top selling silhouette. Don't abandon it. You know, don't, like, go spend, spend X percentage of your energy trying to build new heroes, but make sure you're giving her novelty colors in that thing every month. Because when, I've looked at, like, a lot of purchase path reports. So, okay, the first purchase include, was X sweater, or X legging, X shoe, whatever, right? Guess what the second purchase was?

• 46:44Jen Cohen?

  What?

• 46:45Speaker 02

  The same thing in a different color. Guess what the third purchase was? The same thing in a different color.

• 46:50Jen Cohen?

  Like I said, this is like the aloe thing in 10 different, in 20 different colors. It's the same thing.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. She, people, it is, it is a fact. People collect, they've already told you, this is what I like.

• 46:59Jen Cohen?

  Yep.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  So why are you going to go spend a bunch of time trying to find, like, something else that they're going to like? And these heroes get abandoned all the time and under leveraged, you know?

• 47:07Jen Cohen?

  Totally.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  And it's true with people, too. Their own, your, your own sense of what you're good at, you know?

• 47:13Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 47:14Speaker 02

  Or a talent portfolio, or any, any portfolio approach to anything is going to cluster asymmetrically around something that does better.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  But the instinct is to allocate resources symmetrically across everything. It's the wrong instinct.

• 47:30Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  That's what I mean by winner's win is like, wake yourself up a little bit.

• 47:34Jen Cohen?

  That's a great, that's a great point.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:42Jen Cohen?

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• 48:26Jen Cohen?

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• 49:01Jen Cohen?

  Give me another one of these principles.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Spearpoint marketing. I was just talking about this with somebody yesterday. Like, so Spearpoint marketing, you, I mean, this is a horrible thing to say, but you don't kill an elephant with a plank of wood.

• 49:12Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  You hunt with a spear, with the point of a spear.

• 49:15Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  But if you look at most people's advertising efforts, they're kind of hunting with a plank of wood in terms of, I'll give you my favorite example, and this is one you're going to relate to. The WNBA, they spent years, decades, and I don't know how much money, trying to promote the WNBA. Now, that's plank of wood. You see it all the time, that the ad is at the brand level, or even at the category level. Hey, spring dresses. I can't tell you how many apparel accounts we've looked at. And the way that they market new arrivals is at the category level. We've got new sweaters. We have new dresses. It's the same thing as the WNBA saying, watch women's basketball. That doesn't, it just doesn't work. If I say, this works for all body types, I will sell zero of it. If I say, I'm self-conscious about my arms and I love this shirt, I'll sell thousands of units. Like, it is a, it is a, it is a mental,

• 50:02Speaker 02

  it's a, it's a protractor to pull off the board and force yourself to think about specificity of your marketing. So, back to the WNBA, decades of wasted money trying to get people interested in women's basketball. But the minute Katelyn Clark comes along, they have the point of a spear. You always want to do star marketing. Whatever the best thing is in that portfolio, you market at the tip of the spear. And that, that is true whether, so with her, I don't know if this is still true, but at the time, that was the single most watched basketball game on ESPN.

• 50:32Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  College, pro, men's, women's. And it happened, and everything I read, I, what I read is the Wall Street Journal. I read it every morning. It's all, I have time for one paper, and it's that one. So, and I read the sports news. So, the, the-

• 50:45Jen Cohen?

  I love it.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I watch football with my son and my husband. I love, I love metaphorically watching and reading about sports. So, um-

• 50:54Jen Cohen?

  I think it's such, it's such a great, like, it, it, it's also a microcosm of life.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:59Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 51:00Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  But so, that's the perfect spear point example is, all of a sudden, when they, think of the billions of dollars of industry value that they created because of the way that they marketed Katelyn Clark. Every cutaway to the ads would be, it wouldn't even be a good play. And they'd be like, man, did you see how she stepped back and took that? You know, like, it was always about her and all of the articles and the press push. It was about glorifying her.

• 51:21Jen Cohen?

  Her, yeah.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  And that, that is what put WNBA on the map. Not all that broad. So, always, it's a good discipline to think about, how do I make my marketing message specific? And it's probably going to be more effective.

• 51:34Jen Cohen?

  I love that. So then, if, with Goop, what is their hero product? I really don't even know.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  Well, the beauty business, they've got a really killer beauty. That beauty product is incredible.

• 51:45Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. You know what I use from them? You should get me some because I'm out of it.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  I will get you some.

• 51:50Jen Cohen?

  That is really good. The micro.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  The microderm, exfoliate, yeah.

• 51:53Jen Cohen?

  I love it.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  It's awesome.

• 51:55Jen Cohen?

  It really is. It's a great product.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  It is. It is a great product.

• 51:58Jen Cohen?

  It is, right? Okay. It's a good qual- I mean, of course, you're gonna say it.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  It's, it is misunderstood. It's actually, it's a big business. It's a very good business.

• 52:05Jen Cohen?

  It is, okay.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  But it is misunderstood at the general population level, how good that product is. Like, they do not mess around. Like, it is.

• 52:12Jen Cohen?

  I, I know.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:14Jen Cohen?

  I couldn't believe it. I got it as a gift one time and they're like, I'm like, oh God, am I even gonna use it? And I'm like, ah, I'll use it one time. I was like, this, it made my skin shine better and like glow more than anything else I've ever used.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 52:27Jen Cohen?

  Ever.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:28Jen Cohen?

  And I'm not just saying this because you're sitting here or whatever. I'm not, I'm not getting paid to say this. I'm saying because it actually is really good, right?

• 52:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:35Jen Cohen?

  But so is that not their, so what is the hero? Which, if of their?

• 52:38Speaker 02

  Well, it's that. It's the microderm.

• 52:40Jen Cohen?

  That's a big one.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Oh. Peptide, their peptide serum, I think is the number one seller. That's also a very good product. The one I, I use both of those. The eye masks, I am obsessed with.

• 52:51Jen Cohen?

  I've never tried their eye masks.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  That's a good, um, I'm gonna send you those too. I'll send you a whole thing.

• 52:55Jen Cohen?

  Send me a whole thing, now that we're friends.

• 52:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I got you. I got your skincare covered.

• 52:59Jen Cohen?

  Thank you.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  But, um, the, the eye masks are like, I mean, I'm like, bag lady. It's a big problem for me. So I like.

• 53:06Jen Cohen?

  Really? I don't see any bags on there.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Well, I use the eye masks this morning.

• 53:08Jen Cohen?

  Oh, there you go.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  I'm not trying to make this an ad, but they're just really good, especially for people who are on the go and busy and, but, but those, they have probably four or five hero products within that beauty business, but I think the ultimate hero of that is the editorial product and the curation and the travel tips and the, you know, that to me is what drives the trust of that brand.

• 53:30Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. By the way, you know what other brand I use for like concealer? Tell me what you think. Merit. I think I saw your name.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:35Jen Cohen?

  So I don't know how good it is or not good. I don't know how to put makeup on. I'm like, I'm literally like, I'm terrible. I tried to put it on today. I probably look like a clown. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, I think this goes here, just not good. But I like, I think I like the merit, like, overall. It's clean, isn't it?

• 53:52Speaker 02

  It goes with your ethos. It's a really no fuss. Well, just in the sense that she, she really tried to make it easy to put on for people who were busy and like, didn't want to deal with it that much.

• 54:04Jen Cohen?

  Okay, well, why would it be harder than putting on a different concealer?

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Well, because, well, the concealer might be different, but for example, that flush balm, like, everything was just sort of, the use case of it was like, okay, if I'm in the car, could I put this on? You know, or like, I have literally five minutes, could I put this on?

• 54:21Jen Cohen?

  Does it do well?

• 54:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:22Jen Cohen?

  It does do really well.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  That's a good company. Yeah.

• 54:24Jen Cohen?

  What happened with, like, Cracker Barrel? Do you remember them?

• 54:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:27Jen Cohen?

  You did a video with them a long time ago or something I saw. Like, they couldn't, what did they do to their brand?

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, that was, they, I don't, so, they changed the logo, and the whole internet got really fired up about it. And it was, I mean, but, you know, it goes back to that.

• 54:42Jen Cohen?

  Because they, they kind of just, they were like screwing around with their main audience, their main demo. Is that why they got there? But they just changed the logo. What's the difference?

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Well, they took that guy, you know.

• 54:52Jen Cohen?

  I don't know anything about them.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  It's not that I'm a big Cracker Barrel customer, but they.

• 54:55Jen Cohen?

  Really? No. That's shocking, Emily. But go on.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  No, I mean, they took the, the old Yee Haw guy out of the, I don't, I don't know how much people actually care, but I think it just was, it became a, a sort of hot button on the internet, I think, because they, they screwed up. It's a nostalgia brand. It's sort of what we were talking about before, but it is nostalgia. It, it's about yesterday and permanence and never, the promise with a nostalgia brand is we won't change, you know?

• 55:27Jen Cohen?

  Because versus the heritage you said earlier, right?

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, versus just like something that's, I mean, they, they still need to change too, but, but you, so you know how Hermes, like, they are good at changing but staying the same?

• 55:38Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  That's a trick. Cracker Barrel changed and they changed, you know? They needed to find a way to change and stay the same. And instead, they changed and they changed. And that's why people revolted because the central promise of that brand is we're not going to change. Right? It's a nostalgia brand. So.

• 55:53Jen Cohen?

  That makes sense, actually. What about like, okay, so I saw the whole, you said this before about growing a business and growing yourself is like a dual journey, right? What does that mean? Cause you're about like fully like kind of everything should be dual, like everything should be encompassing together, right? Like your personal growth and the company, it all kind of, they're not separate entities, basically.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:17Jen Cohen?

  Right? So can you kind of talk more about that and like how, what you mean by all of that? Like, is it as people are growing on their own, their company then evolves and changes? Is that more or less what you're meaning?

• 56:29Speaker 02

  Well, I think the American, the American way, the American, when I was like 22, or you know, just starting my career.

• 56:38Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  I would, I subscribed to Forbes magazine. I was a liberal arts major. I didn't, you know, this wasn't my thing.

• 56:45Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  And my mom was like, I wanted to go be a professor. I wanted to be.

• 56:50Jen Cohen?

  I can totally see.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  An intellectual, you know, and my mom was like, no, you're going to go to work. Then you can decide later if you want to do that. So anyway, so I.

• 56:58Jen Cohen?

  Where'd you go to college?

• 56:59Speaker 02

  Just. I went to Chapel Hill, University of North Carolina.

• 57:02Jen Cohen?

  That's a great school. And then you went to Stanford, right?

• 57:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:04Jen Cohen?

  I think I saw that. Yeah.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  So I went to Chapel Hill and then I moved to New York City and I, I started doing consulting and I would read Forbes magazine because it was 1996.

• 57:14Jen Cohen?

  It was diff, by the, by the way, back then, that's what people were doing.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  That's what you did.

• 57:17Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  There wasn't an internet yet.

• 57:19Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  You know, it wasn't a wide, there really wasn't. And so the quote from Malcolm Forbes in the opening masthead of Forbes magazine, I don't know if it still is, but at the time it was a proverb and it was with all thy getting. Get understanding. And that to me, that was his approach to capitalism, you know, was that the American way was to build a business and succeed. But in the process of doing that, that you're succeeding as a person and in the world. And there's an ethical point of view to it. And there's a pursuit of self that happens in the crucible of working. So your pursuit presumably has been fitness. You know, you've used that as a focal point for developing out,

• 58:02Speaker 02

  whether it's perseverance or, you know, all of the traits that you're trying to get in yourself, you know? And I just have used business for that because my, this was not a natural thing for me to do. You know, I really am very, very shy and introverted as a person. It's always been a lifelong, I know, isn't that cute? But um, no, I'm so it was hard for me, you know, when I, when I was younger and you know, like,

• 58:27Jen Cohen?

  Look at you now.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and look at me now, I know. But I mean, but even things like, you know, you always have to check you to be successful. You have to cultivate yourself, you know, you have to figure out your ego. You have to do things wrong and be like, that's not, I'm not going to do that again. You know, in terms of how you treat, I mean, the whole thing is an exercise in maturity. It is the inner journey of leadership and of, you know, so just using whatever it is that you're trying to do and understanding that what you're getting at the other end of that is you, it is you, you know, and

• 58:59Jen Cohen?

  It's so true.

• 59:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:00Jen Cohen?

  You know why I think that, what I, I think I saw you talk about like the fact that like, you really leaned into what you're good at.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 59:07Jen Cohen?

  And so kind of like that resonated with me because like I went to business school. I did all the things like I have like a bunch of degrees and all this stuff. But the culture of working in an office was like sickening for me. I did it and I hated it. And so, because I wanted to, I rode my bike to work in my little shorts and I were bucked. Like I, my, I loved being active. So what I just did, and I tell this to people all the time, is like, I used fitness as my business. As like, I created businesses around me liking being fitness and like fitness stuff. And I became an entrepreneur in that space. And so I always say like, people should like, really know what they what they like, and then create around that when they can.

• 59:50Jen Cohen?

  Otherwise, you're just always fitting a circle into a square. You're never going to thrive and flourish in a real way. Right? Like, when you are the most authentic and you're able to do that. Not, it doesn't always happen. You can't always do that. But if you can, you'll just be more successful versus, you know, trying to do something that you're not even good at. Like, I, I, people, tell me what you think. I think that people should do what they're really good at, and then get other, delegate or find other people to balance you out by doing the things that you're really bad at. Some people say, no, I don't like that idea. Like, you should get good at the other things that you're bad at. But I'm like, well, why? I'm just going to be bad at them. I'm not going to be as good. I don't want to do them. And then therefore, why even do that? What do you think?

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  I heard, well, it's winners win.

• 1:00:33Jen Cohen?

  Winners win. I love it. I love it. I love it.

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  You pour water on what, but, but I'm, I'm curious about when you did that. So how long were you in an office type thing? And then was it scary to do that? Or you just were like?

• 1:00:45Jen Cohen?

  No, when I was in the, well, listen, I, my background is, I used to, my first real job was with the NBA. I worked for the Toronto Raptors. And then I did that for a year. And then I went back to business school after that. So I had my undergrad and all that. Then I went to work for the Toronto Raptors, went back to school for my business. And then I got recruited to go to BMG Music. So I was going to go back to the Raptors, actually, or go back in the sports world. I had a job, I had a job at Nike offer. I had a lot of different things I could have done. But I got this really good offer to do, kind of do this for the, for a record label. And then, I'm Canadian, by the way.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  Okay, I was about to ask you.

• 1:01:23Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. And then I was working in Toronto. And then I got a job to come to LA to work for another record label. Like, they come, you know, that's how I got to LA. And I just hate, like, I mean, in, in a world of corporate, it wasn't even that corporate. I just had to like, be somewhere at a certain time. Like, you had to be there. I had to have meetings at a certain time. I had to do this at a certain time. And my ADD was not doing well with that. Like, I wanted to do, I wanted to have autonomy. Like, I was much better when I didn't have someone tell me where I had to be, what I had to do, what I had to Do it even in a record label environment, I was still running a marketing division or like very, I was like on a fast track. So my thing was I didn't, and I had other jobs too that I went back and forth with.

• 1:02:04Jen Cohen?

  But bottom line is I just said, you know what? This is not, I can figure it out. And I'm going to like, I'm actually going to, I was on a visa, so I couldn't just work anywhere. So I had to become a personal trainer and make money on like under the table. So I can then like basically survive and living in LA. I was very young. I quit my job and that's how I started in the fitness journey. I became a trainer for like five minutes. But what I did was I went back to all of my relationships in the, in the music world. Cause when I was working in the music space in Toronto and LA and New York, I was working with all the big labels. I created an opportunity for myself. So I went to these labels and I said, listen, I'm now a trainer,

• 1:02:45Jen Cohen?

  but I'm no longer a marketing person. I want you to pay me a retainer to train all of the, all the different artists for, so when they get ready for a tour or a video, I will train them. And they're like, what do you mean train them? Like how? I'm like, I mean, like physically train them. And they're all, the first guy from MCA was like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, no, this is what I'm doing. I know how the budgets work. And at the time they would give these people like huge budgets to do whatever they wanted to do, right? Okay. And so I said, just give it to, let's do it for, I'll do it for free for a month. Like I'll train whoever for a month because if you go to a gym, you're capped, right? Like you just get like 50 bucks an hour, whoever you're training or 10 bucks an hour. And so I already had like, I couldn't use my transferred skills of like what I had.

• 1:03:30Jen Cohen?

  Went to the label and said, let's create this thing. Finally someone gave me the opportunity. I did a good job and then they're like, okay, you're hired. So then I became a label trainer, which means I went to all the labels and trained a bunch of like artists and got paid retainers. So I wasn't getting paid hourly. So then I was able to like work in the States properly. So cause I was getting paid by a label anyway. Do you know what I'm saying? Does that make any sense? So I just took a chance on myself and I thought to myself like, what's the worst that can happen? It doesn't work out. I'm no worse off now than I was, you know, a month ago. I knew I didn't want to like work at a label as a person who was like day in, day out, doing something. That wasn't like, didn't feel comfortable for me. Cause I just, I, I can't sit still.

• 1:04:14Jen Cohen?

  Like even doing these podcasts for like hours on, like on end. Is very difficult for me. That's why I have a treadmill beside me. So I have to move all the time. My brain does really well when I'm in movement. And if I'm stagnant too long, I get like, I'm like a caged animal. Don't do well. So I knew that about me. So I think a lot of this is self-awareness. I knew myself very young of like what I'm capable of, what I like, what where I thrive and where I don't thrive. And then I leaned really into where I knew I can be okay. And I always like, and I tell this to people all the time that like, you've got to like, the only difference between you and the person that is really successful is

• 1:04:56Jen Cohen?

  that they believed in themselves, like just a little bit more to try and like, just keep on going, you know, because like, I think we get really stuck in our own heads of self doubt, and we're scared of failing and rejection. But at the end of the day, like, that's what life is, right? Like, it's more failing and more rejection than the positive. And if you kind of accept that to be what it is, you'll get, you know, I mean, the the ratio will eventually even out somewhere. If you just, the more chances you give yourself, the more chances you have at succeeding. And so I always live by a certain mentality is like, rejection, always better than regret. Like, don't let that happen. So I will always put myself out there to a fault. And now I'm so desensitized to the word no, to rejection,

• 1:05:39Jen Cohen?

  to failure, because I'm so used to it. It doesn't bother me anymore. So I'm, I'm, I'm expecting to fail. I'm expecting for things not to work out. And if they do, great. And if they don't, I'm okay with it. I'm just going to keep up, keep it going, moving on, moving on, moving on. And so when I changed this whole thing to fitness and stuff like that, like, it was scary. But what's my option than to just to live in this myopic area of like, okay, I'm just gonna do what everybody else does. Like, I'm here. I I'm always looking for chasing what you want and not just accepting what you get. And so that's my, I like have certain things on like, repeat in my head.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's incredible. I'm jealous of you.

• 1:06:19Jen Cohen?

  What do you mean? You're doing it.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  I am, but it's a it that your fearlessness and like you're you're a hustler, you know?

• 1:06:27Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I am a hustler.

• 1:06:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:29Jen Cohen?

  There's I know there's a whole big like the movement on like, you know, sitting still and manifestation, thinking that things are going to come to you and all these things. I'm a believer that if you want something to happen for yourself, you have to chase it and go after it and like be relentless about it, not just be passive. There's so much competition and I believe that there's room for everybody, but I believe that you also no one's gonna like, no one's saving you. No one's going to give you that thing if you want something. And if you're not someone who's born into like, you know, a very rich family or a family with like a lot of connections and nepotism and all this stuff. Like I wasn't, I had nobody to help me. I had to like figure it out on my own.

• 1:07:14Jen Cohen?

  Like that was like that worked to my advantage because it made me hungrier to like do it. Right. And that's also not a bad thing. Right. Like, I think that people have to just give themselves the like have to be self aware of what they're good at and then just go for it. And what like just not even look back, like just prepare and expect to fail. Prepare and expect to get no's prepare and expect to like, you know, get the door slammed on you. And then you've got to find another attempt somewhere else.

• 1:07:43Speaker 02

  No, I love it. It's so good. I agree. And you said something really important, which is so what if it doesn't work out? I'm just going to be back where I say that all the time, like you. What even in the context of business too, like if you go for it, if it fails, we're probably just it's like the warp wall and you're just going to be back there. So.

• 1:08:00Jen Cohen?

  Why not even like right? While you were talking and funnily enough, when I was watching your content, I was thinking to myself, and I was going to ask you, I'm going to ask you right now. Someone is, you're so smart, right? You know what all these other brands should be doing. You have all the information. You have all of it in your brain. Why didn't you start your own thing? Your own product, your own brand, your own whatever? Because you're the one who like you have, who have the knowledge base.

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:08:27Jen Cohen?

  Right? Is it just something you're not interested in doing? You don't want to do it? Like what, why didn't you?

• 1:08:32Speaker 02

  Well, I did, and it was an ad agency. So when I was building-

• 1:08:36Jen Cohen?

  Oh, you're right. You did do the ad agency. That's true.

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:39Jen Cohen?

  That's true, but not a product.

• 1:08:40Speaker 02

  But the reason-

• 1:08:41Jen Cohen?

  That's true. That's a service business versus a, yeah.

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  I started a company in a way that I wanted.

• 1:08:46Jen Cohen?

  That's actually true, right?

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I, but, but you're, I understand your question. And so I spent my thirties building other people's companies.

• 1:08:53Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  And I, it was miserable. It was, it was just horrible in like every possible direction. Outside of like my teams, which I really loved. But I did not want to work with investors after that. After that decade of basically being in a board meeting every four weeks and all of the decision-making, the, the way that decisions get made when something is heavily capitalized and the dynamic and that 40% of your time then goes to investor relationships and building your next round of funding. I was, I, yeah, I just got very disillusioned with that. And that's not to say there are a lot of great investors out there who really are passionate about entrepreneurialism and funding the next wave of innovation. But, but for me, that was not a good match. So I kind of shoved my raft off that dock. And I was like, I'm not building those types of companies anymore.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  And I want to take more of a portfolio approach with my time because I saw the investors doing it. They were invested in a bunch of things. It didn't really matter if our thing worked out or not. But my whole life and my family and my livelihood were all in this one thing.

• 1:09:49Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  And I couldn't control so much of the decision-making and the variables. So I, I just started doing consulting. I want to work on a bunch of stuff at once. To some degree, sell the shovels, you know?

• 1:10:00Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  And, and that, I don't want to raise money. So I need something that is immediately profitable.

• 1:10:06Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  And that is a services business. There was no investment capital required. It was just me and my time. And I thought it really played into my own strengths because- I was able to step back from things and see the patterns and go and develop frameworks that could be taught to people because that's one of the tricks with the services business is how do you make someone who's 23 years old and just graduated from college, they went to a good college, but they still just graduated from college.

• 1:10:30Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  How do you teach them to do this, you know, because that's the only way to scale the business? So I thought it played into my strengths, you know, and I liked working on all these brands. And then I do this deep dive advisory work when I really fall for something.

• 1:10:41Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:41Speaker 02

  And that kid, that really feeds me, you know?

• 1:10:43Jen Cohen?

  This is what you're passionate about.

• 1:10:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I thought it was a good fit for me.

• 1:10:46Jen Cohen?

  You know, I think, I mean, listen, and also you get to like, it's always new, right? Because there's always a different problem that you need to solve or a different like, that would work, that's why that works good for my like monkey brain, right? Because the same thing, right? Because then you're not doing the same thing day in, day out, day in, day out, day in, day out, right?

• 1:11:05Speaker 02

  No, that's right. It's like your treadmill. I mean, but it's, and it's also, it's a way to become an expert because when you work, the amount of, we've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the platform across probably at least 100 brands.

• 1:11:17Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like so, and you see all their reports and you see the, the repeat patterns and you see what happens with products and you, you, you develop true expertise. And that was a good fit for me because my, that, that is my strength is trying to access insights and bring them back in the form of frameworks. That's something I feel that I'm, I'm good at.

• 1:11:38Jen Cohen?

  You're really good at it.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  So, but how could I do that if I couldn't see this playing out across so many companies?

• 1:11:44Jen Cohen?

  That's a hundred percent true because you have so much perspective, right? Because you have all this data to choose from, from all these companies that you work with.

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:54Jen Cohen?

  All the time.

• 1:12:01Jen Cohen?

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• 1:12:46Jen Cohen?

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• 1:13:27Jen Cohen?

  Do you ever do personal brands, like people? Or is it just companies, just consumer?

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  It's just consumer. I mean, to some degree via personal brand.

• 1:13:36Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  But it's, and so sometimes I think it's one in the same. But yeah, it's, we just, we work on companies.

• 1:13:41Jen Cohen?

  You work on companies.

• 1:13:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:43Jen Cohen?

  And like, what, okay, so I haven't even looked at my thing for that. None of the questions I have, I didn't even ask you one of them.

• 1:13:49Speaker 02

  And I wanted to talk about fitness.

• 1:13:50Jen Cohen?

  Oh, go ahead.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  I'm obsessed with that, too. I mean, like, I'm just so curious, like, what, what you've learned, because you've, you've got pattern recognition over a lot of people.

• 1:13:58Jen Cohen?

  You know, it's interesting. I just came back from Miami. I just did a TED Talk on the idea that, I believe that what I learned in the, like, on the, on the gym floor was way more important than what I learned in college. Yeah. And so I had this whole thing. I, it's not even out yet. It hasn't even been out yet. So I, but basically I said, like, you know, the whole thing is like, why your GPA might not matter as much as your squat rack? Because I think the life skills and soft skills you learn from doing, taking fitness seriously, like, in any, like, it doesn't have to be the gym. It could be something else. What it does in terms of it, not just your discipline. Discipline, not delayed, well, everything, discipline, delayed gratification, patience,

• 1:14:41Jen Cohen?

  self-confidence, that, that, that to me, I'm going to, that's have propelled anything and everything I've ever done way more than my MBA, way more than anything else I've ever done. And so I lean really hard in it because that's why I'm like a, I'm like a drill sergeant with people. I think especially young people, I think that they have to take that idea of like, taking some form of fitness seriously will catapult their life in ways that they wouldn't, they don't even know because they don't, they don't know what you don't know, right? And I think the self-confidence, like I think when you asked me earlier, like why you're like, well, aren't you fear, aren't you scared or don't like, didn't that scare you? Cause here I am,

• 1:15:21Jen Cohen?

  a Canadian and a you know, young girl coming to the US had no family, nothing. And I took a chance on myself. I took a chance on myself because I built up my self-efficacy and my self-esteem and self-worth by seeing myself do things that I otherwise would never have thought I was capable of in my fitness space, in my fitness world. Cause I was, you know, I would, my, my, I would lift heavier, I would run for farther, I would wake up earlier, I would do all of these things that I would otherwise never have probably learned to do if I just never took that path of fitness at a young age. You know what I mean? Like that's, that kind of took me on a whole thing.

• 1:16:04Jen Cohen?

  You should actually, you should watch my, my first TED Talk was on being bold. And that went really viral. And it will explain to you a lot of like my whole thing if you're interested. But I think that fitness is a very important, that's why I think fitness is a microcosm of success in life. I think not just business, by the way, I'm talking about like personal life, professional life, everything. I think it's super important.

• 1:16:29Speaker 02

  I agree. I am going to watch your TED Talk. That's on my list. I'm really excited to watch it.

• 1:16:34Jen Cohen?

  I think you'll, you'll see why it's a funny little pivot, but I like, I, I just think that, you know, building these like keystone habits are so much more important than where you go to school. It, it like, you know what I mean?

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  I agree. What do you think?

• 1:16:48Jen Cohen?

  This is your podcast though, not mine.

• 1:16:50Speaker 02

  No, but I, I was so, I really was genuinely excited to talk to you about this because I really agree. And I, that was a big unlock for me when I was 30. I was a huge runner. I was an addicted runner. And I heard, and I don't have

• 1:17:02Jen Cohen?

  I can see that.

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. My, I mean, but I I did not have the body type. Like when you see people who can run.

• 1:17:08Jen Cohen?

  I hundred percent agree with you. By the way, it's so funny you just said that I had a runner on here. Do you know Nick Thompson?

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  I I saw that on Instagram, but no, I yeah, I don't know who he is.

• 1:17:17Jen Cohen?

  I think it's, and I've had a lot of people on here talk about this, that you need to have a very specific body type. Yeah. My opinion to do these long, distant runs or be like a real runner runner, right? Like if you're like a woman who has hips and this and that, it's very, like, that's been a real challenge for me and I love running.

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:17:38Jen Cohen?

  You know, but if your body type is not like that way.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:43Jen Cohen?

  I think there's, there's like, yes, you can do it, but it's not going to be as easy.

• 1:17:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Jen Cohen?

  Right? As, as if you are someone who is more of like a ectomorph. Do you know what ectomorph is?

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:17:55Jen Cohen?

  So ectomorph is someone who's like really narrow. They have, they don't have the hips. They don't, they don't like, they're not someone who like puts on weight easily. You know what I mean? They're more like lean and.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:05Jen Cohen?

  And gain like more lean and mean.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:18:08Jen Cohen?

  Like a mesomorph, like you and I, I think are more mesomorph, but you're a smaller mesomorph, is more someone who's athletic built, right? Like we can, we have muscle, we have more of a hips and we're like more of a curvature, but we're more like fit, like we're more like strong fit in the middle.

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:18:25Jen Cohen?

  Then you have like the endomorphs who are more of the very voluptuous, they're more curvy people.

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:33Jen Cohen?

  So those people, the running will be very difficult, I think, when you're doing these long runs.

• 1:18:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:39Jen Cohen?

  People like us, we can do runs, but it's not as, like it's, it's, it's like, I can't run 30 miles every day. I'll hurt myself.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, you'll like, yeah, the injuries is what got me. So, so, yeah, I, I was complaining to my older brother one time about being short. Because every room I walk into, they're like, I thought you were going to be 510. And he was like, he was like Neanderthal genes M, short and strong. I was like, you're right. That's our, that's our anatomy. So, I mean.

• 1:19:04Jen Cohen?

  You are like that.

• 1:19:06Speaker 02

  But I mean, I carry my weight between here and here. So my knees just got pounded from all the running I'm doing. But so I had to stop and that was very hard, but it was because I had this injury and that's how I learned how to eat, though. I read Dr. Wiles' book, Spontaneous Feeling, which totally changed my approach.

• 1:19:21Jen Cohen?

  I like him.

• 1:19:22Speaker 02

  He's incredible. He was kind of the OG.

• 1:19:24Jen Cohen?

  He is. I think he still is the OG in that way.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's the OG. He called all of this, you know, transplant, I mean, the whole thing. And but that approach to cellular health, that was the first time I understood nutrition. It flipped my, I had this horrible, which I think most women in our generation do because it was how we were raised and because culturally and through most people's moms, is that you're like the weight pressure on women growing up was so negative. And that was a real fight for me was that relationship with food and with weight and that that clouds your self-image. What you what you're talking about is is taking that and making it be empowered, whether you did that deliberately or not. But for me, that was the moment where the weight narrative

• 1:20:07Speaker 02

  really changed to be more about self-care and self-love versus self-hatred and all the food negativity.

• 1:20:14Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  Because when you think about optimizing your cellular health, it it kind of it's the length that straightens out the chain. That really helped me. And so what you're saying makes a lot. It just really resonates with me. That's been a really, that was a positive thing for you to focus on.

• 1:20:30Jen Cohen?

  I also think, yeah, because you don't know my history, I wrote a book called Strong Is the New Skinny many years ago.

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I read about that.

• 1:20:36Jen Cohen?

  And the thing is, I think where you, I think life is about reframes, right? Like, you've got to, you've got to reframe for something that you can achieve versus something that is like, I think if anyone could be strong, anyone could get stronger.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:49Jen Cohen?

  But not everybody can be skinny. Let's just be honest.

• 1:20:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:52Jen Cohen?

  It's a real struggle for a lot of people. Like, I believe there's a baseline that people have and you can kind of go up and down, like, you know, a little bit here and there, but you're always going to like meet your baseline again. That's why these GLP ones are very interesting to me, right?

• 1:21:06Speaker 02

  I was just gonna say that.

• 1:21:06Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:07Jen Cohen?

  It's a very interesting, I'm like, very curious about how it's like at the beginning kind of stages, what happens in five or 10 years from now? Because what I've noticed with these GLP ones, and again, this is my opinion, everyone, so I don't want anyone to come after me. But what I, what I have noticed is that it flatlines eventually.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:21:25Jen Cohen?

  And I find that people who I know have been on it for a long time, their appetites are back.

• 1:21:29Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:21:30Jen Cohen?

  Because you do. Like your body acclimates to anything and everything you do all the time. So yes, you can cycle it and you can maybe microdose it and all these other things. But still, like, that's not, that to me is not a solution long term. And you can, and people can say, oh, but there's all these other benefits, uh, inflammation and brain and this and that and the other. Okay, maybe, maybe. You know, does it help with diabetes? Yes, we know that to be true, right? But I think that shortcuts for your, for your weight and for that type of lifestyle, there is no shortcut. People need to do the hard work. You need to eat properly and you need to exercise.

• 1:22:13Jen Cohen?

  And so I think that this is thrown a real, real kind of curve ball into a lot of these things, right? Like even like the idea of even, we talked about self-acceptance. No one is, this is proving that this whole body positivity, you know, movement was a bunch of nonsense, right? Because the second that someone can shoot themselves with an injection to lose weight, body positivity went right out the window and everyone's now 11 pounds wandering around town, right? So like, there's a real, like, interesting, like, I think, interesting thing about that in itself. Like, I think that we have to be like, accepting things that we can get, like, we can do and then work towards those goals. Because everything I think is like a, is like a, like a ripple effect, right?

• 1:22:56Jen Cohen?

  Like, if you prove to yourself that you can do the thing, that will build your self-confidence and you'll do it more and more and more. And like, maybe you'll, you may not be a size zero, but you can be a size four, six and eight and be happy with that. Because you're strong and you're capable and you have, you have muscle and you have strength and physical strength correlates with mental strength and vice versa, right? Like, well, it works everything together. So I don't know, these GLP-1s are very interesting to me and I think they're being over, that they've been, they've been taking too much. People are prescribing them too often and I'm really concerned about what the fallout's gonna be.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  Well, I, I, so I have an opinion on this. I could talk to you about this all day.

• 1:23:38Jen Cohen?

  I know, we can't. Oh, we should actually, hold on. Okay, keep on going.

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  Okay, so quickly on GLP-1s. So I've been knee deep in this with Weight Watchers because they have prescribed, not only do they prescribe GLP-1s, but they have this companion program that does everything that you're saying, which is like, here's how you optimize nutrition, because it isn't just, it's meant to be used in the context of a lifestyle. But it's been interesting learning about it, because my perception of it was, oh, they're just going to be skinny for the rest. That's actually not true. It's what you're saying. You lose 20 to 30% of your body weight.

• 1:24:06Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  And then your body's set points. But what's interesting, and then from there, you've got to, you have to diet. You know, you've got, you've got to fight it with behavior. It just makes it easier because it quiets down the food nozzler. What I think is great. But the interesting thing about it that I think is really nice is that I've talked to multiple people on these, and that when they hit that set point, they're content. They're like, you know, that's where my body wants to be.

• 1:24:30Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:31Speaker 02

  And I'm good with it. I feel better. My macros are better. My lab work is better. And it, it'll, I think it allows you emotionally to be content, whereas when you, I've talked to a lot of people about this in the context of the work. A lot of people will lose 100 pounds and still look in the mirror and say, I know the scale tells, tells me.

• 1:24:48Jen Cohen?

  Totally.

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  I lost that, but I don't see it. And I think with GLP-1s, it almost externalizes and makes it an objective conversation with themselves. So that when they hit that set point, they're like, you know, I'm good. Feel better, look better. That, I, that's what I hear from people, and I think that's nice.

• 1:25:02Jen Cohen?

  What I find interesting about the GLP-1 and Weight Watchers is Weight Watchers based, their foundation was based on like, these like, in-person meetings where people are showing accountability for, for doing the, the work. There's a disconnect between the GLP-1s, and they took out the meetings, and now they're doing the GLP-1s?

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  They, they still do the meetings, and that's all getting, Julie Rice is going to be really doing some really cool stuff. But it's interesting about GLP-1s. The reason they acquired Julie's company is because she was doing GLP-1 in-person workshops. Because when you get prescribed those things, you're going through it pretty much alone, because most doctors don't have time, or even like the learning patterns to understand. And you're feeling all these side effects. You hit plateau points. So the first thing you hit is side effects, like feeling super nauseous, or whatever it is. And really, the only way to get answers around that is to ask the 50 people in that workshop who are going through it at the exact same time as you. There's no one else who has the information. So those

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  workshops become, I think, even more valuable on a GLP-1 journey. And then you hit a plateau point. Then the question is, how do you get past that? And I think some percentage of doctors probably be right there with you, but a lot of them just don't have time. And it's not their core. So I think actually, the workshops have a lot of relevance in that journey, too.

• 1:26:19Jen Cohen?

  Do they wean people? I mean, you probably don't know this question, but is there a process of weaning people off of them, once they're on it for a while?

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's called microdosing. And so what they do is they start to stretch out the doses. So I don't know, can you ever get off them?

• 1:26:33Jen Cohen?

  That's my question.

• 1:26:34Speaker 02

  I don't think so. Because, I mean, maybe. But I think for most people, the hunger will come roaring back. And it will be hard. So I think that, and I'm not speaking for Weight Watchers. I'm just talking, yeah, I'm just speaking personally from what I understand to be true.

• 1:26:51Jen Cohen?

  That's what I was saying earlier. People who I know in the fitness space, longevity space, health space, I know people who are doing the GLP-1s, who are, there's no weight problem. It's just they're now doing it for all the other added benefits, or because they want to like, fine tune. And so they do this microdosing. But even if you're doing that, you need to wean off. How do you stay on a medication forever? That's just what people do.

• 1:27:19Speaker 02

  You space out the dosing. And so what happens is, the hunger starts to come back. So let's say you're on like-

• 1:27:23Jen Cohen?

  I've seen it. Many times.

• 1:27:25Speaker 02

  But they get used to surfing that. So like, the first, I don't know the exact, but when they first start their dosage cycle, they have like, no hunger. And then by the end of it, they can feel the hunger, and then it hits again, they re-dose. So it's just managing the doses. You downshift it, kind of.

• 1:27:41Jen Cohen?

  But when you do like, three weeks, or- But of not doing it.

• 1:27:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:46Jen Cohen?

  Do you keep your, I mean, I don't know, but I mean, from what I've seen with people, I've seen people really, the pendulum swing really far back.

• 1:27:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:54Jen Cohen?

  And they got off and they gained their weight back fast because it, your appetite comes back with a vengeance.

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's right. I think you, I think it's a, honestly, I, I think it's, it's a net positive. I think it really helps people get through kind of that breakthrough period of, you know?

• 1:28:10Jen Cohen?

  I think so too. What I think it's good for is getting you through the hump.

• 1:28:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:14Jen Cohen?

  Right? Like getting, or like, kind of like, just like getting the, kind of like, starting you, like, kind of just igniting the fire. But the problem is people don't just do that for that.

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:28:23Jen Cohen?

  That's reality.

• 1:28:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, now there's all the, yeah, but, but I think it is so hard to lose weight. It really is. Like, it's not hard for you, but it's hard for you.

• 1:28:31Jen Cohen?

  Are you insane? It's very hard for me.

• 1:28:33Speaker 02

  It's hard.

• 1:28:34Jen Cohen?

  Very hard. And by the way, I'm one of these people you said, asked me earlier. I have a lot of food noise. I think about food 24 hours a day. 24 hours a day, I'm hungry all the time. And let me tell you, working out has, has done me no favors in that way.

• 1:28:50Speaker 02

  I bet.

• 1:28:51Jen Cohen?

  Because I get starving, you know?

• 1:28:53Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:28:54Jen Cohen?

  But I think that I've accepted that about myself and I have, but that's my neuroses. It just is. I'm not going to lie. It is like, and I work out more, by the way, now I work out more for my mental situation because it keeps me like more in check.

• 1:29:10Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:29:10Jen Cohen?

  I'm not doing it to lose weight, the fitness stuff. I'm really not. I just accept the fact that like, I work out because I have to work out for my brain, but.

• 1:29:18Speaker 02

  Agreed. Yeah, it's a mental, for me too. It's mental health. But um, yeah, I think it, it kills, it, it's just very enabling. It's a helpful tool. And what is like, it's a core pillar of, of all of our lives is your weight and your health, you know?

• 1:29:31Jen Cohen?

  A hundred percent. Have you tried one in any of these?

• 1:29:34Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:29:34Jen Cohen?

  No. Okay, so let's just wrap up this GLP one because we could talk about it afterwards. I want, I have all these other questions, but now we gotta go, so.

• 1:29:43Jen Cohen?

  But you're gonna have to come back here.

• 1:29:45Speaker 02

  I'd love to come back, Jen.

• 1:29:46Jen Cohen?

  Okay, cuz like, I mean, I literally, I was talking to you like, none of my questions were answered, not one, not one, except I read co-founder and CEO of Chief Detective. That's the only thing I read off of this page. So guys, please follow Emily. She is so knowledgeable. Like I said, if you're interested in any type of like scaling, business, growth, marketing, performance, marketing, influencer, marketing, anything else?

• 1:30:10Speaker 02

  Brand.

• 1:30:10Jen Cohen?

  Brand marketing, obviously, brand marketing. I forgot the biggest one.

• 1:30:13Speaker 02

  The combined journey of life and work.

• 1:30:16Jen Cohen?

  That to me is a big one. One question for you. What is your daily routine? What do you do?

• 1:30:21Speaker 02

  So I wake up early. My, I set my alarm for 5:30. So if I actually sleep that night, I wake up at 5:30. I meditate most days. I drink coffee and do my eye masks. I eat a salad for breakfast every single morning.

• 1:30:35Jen Cohen?

  You do?

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  I do, yeah. I do a diet called metabolic balance. Now I do Weight Watchers too, you know?

• 1:30:40Jen Cohen?

  What is, what is this metabolic?

• 1:30:42Speaker 02

  It's this weird old German health diet that manages like your metabolic system. Basically, it's a health diet. So it's eat five hours apart. It's one protein at every meal. There's this rule set that's just really worked. I like routine. I like being in a straitjacket. I like not having, it helps, it's like, I don't even think about it. It's my.

• 1:31:01Jen Cohen?

  So tell me what it is. So for your head for breakfast, you have a salad?

• 1:31:04Speaker 02

  Salad with pear and nuts and seeds and flax oil. And it's this very healthy salad.

• 1:31:10Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 1:31:10Speaker 02

  And then I don't snack, no snacking. So five hours between meals. And then for lunch, I have another salad and then five hours. And then I have dinner, which is some form of like a protein, a vegetable and a fruit. And that's what I eat every single day. And then the weekends are a disaster. So then I eat like a 10 year old and then, then I make up for it. So I, that's why, you know, sometimes like going on Weight Watchers was great. I peeled off the five pounds that over time with holiday and spring break I'll gain, so.

• 1:31:41Jen Cohen?

  By the way, I still think to this day, Weight Watchers is the most effective, best program out there, bar none. The point system, actually, I don't think.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  It works.

• 1:31:51Jen Cohen?

  It works. It works. Everything's about. Portions.

• 1:31:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:54Jen Cohen?

  At the end, that's how you lose weight. And I think it's like still the most effective. It's like, it's like the tried and shrewd one. So anyway, and that was not, I'm not getting paid by you Weight Watchers. I should be, but anyway, Emily, it was wonderful meeting you.

• 1:32:08Speaker 02

  Same, Jen. Thank you for having me.

• 1:32:10Jen Cohen?

  Thank you for being here. Follow Emily. Bye, everybody.