#257 Richard Garriott (Video Games and Space Exploration)

What I learned from reading Explore/Create My Life in Pursuit of New Frontiers, Hidden Worlds, and the Creative Spark by Richard Garriott. ---- Get access to the World’s Most Valuable Notebook for Founders at Founders Notes.com ---- [6:49] Richard Garriott’s house [7:39] Past episodes on video game creators Sid Meier's Memoir!: A Life in Computer Games by Sid Meier (Founders#195) Masters of Doom: How Two Guys Created an Empire and Transformed Pop Culture by David Kushner (Founders #21) [9:31] I was lucky to learn early on that a deep understanding of the world around you makes you its master. [9:52] The world is a very malleable place. If you know what you want, and you go for it with maximum energy and drive and passion, the world will often reconfigure itself around you much more quickly and easily than you would think. — The Pmarca Blog Archive Ebook by Marc Andreessen (Founders #50) [10:08] Life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact. And that is everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you. And you can change it. You can influence it. You can build your own things that other people can use. —Steve Jobs [10:33] The tagline of his company: We create worlds. [13:13] My heroes are people who took epic journeys into the unknown often at substantial personal risk. I am simply following the path that they carved into history. [13:33] Endurance: Shackleton's Incredible Voyage by Alfred Lansing (Founders #144) [13:49] Two books coming soon: Mad, Bad and Dangerous to Know by Ranulph Fiennes Shackleton: The Biography by Ranulph Fiennes [14:57] By endurance we conquer. —Ernest Shackleton [17:01] Insisting On the Impossible : The Life of Edwin Land by Victor McElheny [17:45] In his acceptance speech, Land chose to pay tribute to the process of invention by analogy to the basic American sense of adventure and exploration: We are becoming a country of scientists, but however much we become a country of scientists, we will always remain first of all that same group of adventurous transcontinental explorers pushing our way from wherever it is comfortable into some more inviting, unknown and dangerous region. Now those regions today are not geographic, they are not the gold mines of the west; they are the gold mines of the intellect. And when the great scientists, and the innumerable scientists of today, respond to that ancient American urge for adventure, then the form that adventure takes is the form of invention; and when an invention is made by this new tribe of highly literate, highly scientific people, new things open up. . . . Always those scientific adventurers have the characteristic, no matter how much you know, no matter how educated you are in science, no matter how imaginative you are, of leading you to say, “I’ll be darned, who ever thought that such a domain existed?” —Edwin Land in A Triumph of Genius: Edwin Land, Polaroid, and the Kodak Patent War by Ronald K. Fierstein (#134) [17:55] I misspoke. The word should have been ancestors! Not descendants :( [21:40] The most powerful person in the world is the storyteller. —Steve Jobs [22:00] Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making by Tony Fadell [25:09] One of my favorite sentences in the book. Every storyteller is familiar with the pleasure that comes from sitting with your friends around a fire, pouring a few drinks, and weaving a yarn. This was man's first form of entertainment, and when done well is still his best. [26:09] Finding The Next Steve Jobs: How to Find, Keep, and Nurture Talent by Nolan Bushnell (Founders #36) [34:10] The owner of the store told me, "Richard, this game you've created that we're all playing is obviously a more compelling reason to have one of these machines than anything that's out there. We really need to be selling this on the store wall." Selling? Wow, what an interesting idea. [35:30] This was a state-of-the-art operation then. We hung them up in the store and in the first week sold about twelve copies at $20 each. I would estimate that at the time, there were probably fewer than a couple of dozen people anywhere in the world creating computer games, and not one of us could have imagined we were creating an industry that in less than three decades would become the largest and most successful entertainment industry in history, that a game would gross more in a few weeks than the most successful movie in history had earned in decades. [37:46] California Pacific's version of Akalabeth was priced at $34, of which I received $5; and they sold thirty thousand copies. I had earned $150,000, more than twice my father's yearly salary as an astronaut. It was a phenomenal amount of money, enough to buy a house. It was so much money that it didn't really sink in; it all seemed like some kind of fantasy. We all thought it was a fluke. It was great that someone wanted to pay me for doing what I was already doing. [38:59] The Fish That Ate the Whale: The Life and Times of America's Banana King by Rich Cohen (Founders #255) [41:55] By then I knew enough about the computer game industry to understand that it wasn't actually an industry; it was an association of companies run by people who had no more experience than I did and who popped up, published a few games, then disappeared. So my brother Robert and I decided to start our own company. [43:21] The leader's habits become everyone's habits. [47:00] It would have been almost impossible to be more wrong. That was one of my first big lessons in: "What I think is not necessarily right and perhaps not what everybody else thinks.” [49:04] Dune Director Denis Villeneuve Breaks Down the Gom Jabbar Scene [53:32] The belief system of the founder is the language of the company. That is why it is usually written down and repeated over and over again. [54:03] Imitation precedes creation. —Stephen King On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft by Stephen King. (Founders #210) [1:05:59] This is going to be one of the most successful games they ever make and he had to fight just to get them to let him do this. [1:07:42] The EA marketing team had projected lifetime sales of Ultima Online at 30,000 units—which they thought was wildly optimistic. We put it on the Internet Within a week or so 50,000 people had signed up to pay $5 for the disc. [1:08:46] The Pmarca Blog Archive Ebook by Marc Andreessen (Founders #50) [1:09:40] One thing is for sure. People are very, very willing to spend real money on all types of virtual items. [1:10:18] A lesson on human nature: People began to covet these items— like property and magic swords— but were not willing to put in the time to earn the gold needed to buy them. [1:12:01] The art of business was to stay in business long enough to give yourself the best chance to get a big hit. [1:15:55] The creative joy we'd once shared in developing a game had been replaced by the prosaic demands of running a business. It was hard to believe how much had changed; only a few years earlier our people would happily work all night and love every minute of it, and now we had become a sweatshop. [1:17:17] I left the office, drove to a grocery store parking lot, and wept for several hours. It was the end of my personal Camelot. This was no game, this was my life. It had been painful for me to fire other people, but as I had just learned, that was nothing compared to being fired myself. I got blindsided by a deep and complex range of feelings. I felt like a failure; I was angry and depressed and confused. It was a hurt that lasted a long time and, frankly, I don't think I ever fully got over it. ---- Get access to the World’s Most Valuable Notebook for Founders at Founders Notes.com ---- “I have listened to every episode released and look forward to every episode that comes out. The only criticism I would have is that after each podcast I usually want to buy the book because I am interested so my poor wallet suffers. ” — Gareth Be like Gareth. Buy a book: All the books featured on Founders Podcast ---- Founders Notes gives you the ability to tap into the collective knowledge of history's greatest entrepreneurs on demand. Use it to supplement the decisions you make in your work. Get access to Founders Notes here. ---- “I have listened to every episode released and look forward to every episode that comes out. The only criticism I would have is that after each podcast I usually want to buy the book because I am interested so my poor wallet suffers. ” — Gareth Be like Gareth. Buy a book: All the books featured on Founders Podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00David Senra?

  It was almost three o'clock in the morning when the sound of a glass door being smashed woke me up. I was alone in my house. A few seconds later, I heard someone walking on the broken glass. The stranger had come back. Hours earlier, my house had been filled with friends who had come to watch huge fragments of the comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 crashing into Jupiter. The first time in history, it was possible to watch an extraterrestrial collision in our solar system. I'd built this house on the highest point in Austin, just for nights like this, and its centerpiece is a large telescope. When my friends arrived early in the evening, I had opened the security gates in the front of the house and turned off the exterior lighting so it would not interfere with our observation.

• 0:42David Senra?

  The spectacle lasted only a few hours, and by ten o'clock, my guests were gone. When the doorbell rang just after midnight, I didn't think too much about it, guessing that someone had just left something behind. I had forgotten to close the front gate. I went to a window. Standing at the front door, shifting nervously from side to side with his hands jammed into the pockets, was a stranger. He was wearing a baseball hat. The hat was pulled down over his eyes. I didn't answer the door. Instead, I stood there watching him, to see what he was going to do. I stood at the window for about a half an hour. Occasionally, he would walk around the side of the house, and I moved from window to window to follow him. He didn't leave. I couldn't figure out what he was doing.

• 1:27David Senra?

  Then it occurred to me that he was waiting for me to get home. I began wondering how I could encourage him to leave without letting him know that I was home. The front gate could be opened remotely, so I closed it. And as I'd hoped, he looked around, surprised, watching the gate slowly shut. He must have realized that he was on the wrong side of the perimeter because he hopped over the fence and disappeared into the darkness. I watched for several more minutes to see if he'd come back. Weird, I thought. But when he didn't return after thirty more minutes, I went back to bed. Three hours later, someone hurled a large rock through my rear glass doors. It was the stranger. I realized that he must have been standing in the darkness for hours, just watching my

• 2:12David Senra?

  house and waiting. I rushed to the window and looked down to see him cautiously entering my house. If this was simply a robbery, he probably waited and watched until he was certain that no one was home. So if I banged on the window above him, I thought, he would realize somebody was in the house and probably take off. I started banging on the window, and I was so agitated that my fist went right through the glass. The window shattered. The intruder stopped and looked up at me. For a few seconds, we stood like that, just glaring at each other. Then I said to him in a clear and loud voice, "Get the fuck out of my house." He stood perfectly still for a few more seconds, and then he walked into the house.

• 2:57David Senra?

  I called 911. The dispatcher told me the officers would be there in 15 minutes. Fifteen minutes? It would take the intruder only a few minutes to find his way to my bedroom. My gun safe had about a dozen weapons in it, but I had those guns for the same reason I had crossbows, battle axes, bows and arrows, even a working cannon. They are all part of the pantheon of collectible history for me. Knowing about them is essential for creating games. Until that moment, I had never even considered the possibility that I might actually have to use one of those guns to protect myself. I picked up an Uzi. I pulled back the slide and snapped the clip into place.

• 3:40David Senra?

  I could hear him moving around downstairs, talking to someone. I hadn't seen another person. I still had the police dispatcher on the phone. "He's talking to someone," I whispered. Then I asked, "What do I do in this situation?" The dispatcher answered matter-of-factly. "Mr. Garrett, if you feel threatened inside your own home by an intruder, you shoot him." It was as if one of my stories was coming to life in my life. A few seconds later, I heard footsteps crunching on the broken glass directly below me. Then the intruder started walking up the stairs. He moved slowly and didn't look up at me for the first few steps. Finally, he paused, and for the first time, he saw the Uzi pointing at his head.

• 4:24David Senra?

  I warned him, "Stop right there, or I'll shoot." He stopped. We stood there, six feet apart, staring at each other. I held the gun steady. At that distance, I would not miss. Then he turned and started walking back down the stairs. I remember thinking, "I don't want to kill this person, but it would be dangerous to let him walk away thinking I wouldn't fire my weapon. That would be an invitation to return." So I aimed the gun just a few inches to the side and fired. He didn't even flinch. He just continued walking his back to me. I lost sight of him, but I could hear him walking around once again, talking to someone. I stood there, frozen in place.

• 5:09David Senra?

  The police finally arrived. They found him in a guest bedroom, sitting nearly naked on the edge of a bed. Nothing about the entire incident seemed to affect him. He was alone. The officers began questioning him. It immediately became clear that he was very troubled. His name was Daniel Dukes, and he told them that he had seen a hologram over my house of me beckoning him there to receive the reward he'd earned for completing his quest. The police placed him under arrest. His parents told law enforcement that he had suffered from a mental disorder for a long time and that they had given up on him. The police detained him as long as legally possible, and then they released him. The police arrested him several more times the following year and let me know every time,

• 5:54David Senra?

  but eventually, he seemed to have drifted away. Several years later, his obituary appeared in the newspaper. Daniel Dukes had died at SeaWorld. Initially, authorities believed that he had jumped into the killer whale tank and had been bitten. But they found his camera and the undeveloped photographs told a different story. He had been hiding in the bushes for several days before jumping into the tank, taking photographs of women's backsides. He had died from hypothermia. He had not been bitten. The fact that he was found on the back of the whale led the authorities to speculate that the whale had recognized him as an air breather and might have been trying to save him. And that is how I learned to tell a story.

• 6:38David Senra?

  That was an excerpt from the book that I'm going to talk to you about today, which is Explore, Create: My Life in Pursuit of New Frontiers, Hidden Worlds, and the Creative Spark. And it was written by Richard Gere. So I found this book because I saw somebody post something like, "Hey, more people should build unique and bizarre and like creative homes. They, all of our houses don't have to look the same." And then they linked to a video about this guy, which is Richard Gere, I found out, and this bizarre house that he built in Austin, Texas. It's on the highest point in Austin, Texas. It's got his own like high-powered telescope and observatory. It's got dungeons, secret passageways, a collection of all these medieval weapons, and science fiction memorabilia. I've never seen anything like it.

• 7:20David Senra?

  And in the first few minutes of the video, he gives an overview of his career. And starting in the 70s, he was one of the first successful computer game designers. And so some of my favorite books that I've wrote for the podcast are autobiographies, or biographies on video game designers. The one that comes to mind, or the two that come to mind, is episode 195, Sid Meier, who was also making games around the same time that Richard Gere was. And then episode number 21, Masters of Doom, which is actually the generation a few years after Sid and Richard. And so as I was watching the video, I was like, okay, this guy thinks very differently than the average person. Let me go see if I can find a biography on him. I found this autobiography, and it turns out people like Ernest Cline Which wrote Ready Player One.

• 8:02David Senra?

  Elon Musk, Steve Wozniak have actually read this book and they're all, they've all blurbed about it in the book. And so I want to jump right into the introduction and as we'll see, he has a mindset that's very, that you and I have talked about over and over again on this podcast, that the idea that the world is very malleable and that you can actually change the world around you. And so he starts off, "Explore and create." Why is the name, why is the book called that? So creation, you think of all the things that he made. Most of the highlights I'm going to focus on is how he built, like he was at the very beginning of an industry, how he built his company. Half the book is about his exploration, the fact that he went to space, the fact that he's been to the bottom of the ocean, he explored the Titanic, he explored the Amazon River in South America, he's gone hunting for meteorites in Antarctica. And so what was interesting is he starts the book saying, these are all, it's the same

• 8:47David Senra?

  exact, that impulse, like in the video, he says, "Listen, the homes I build, they're very much manifestations of the same creative drive that goes into the games I produce." And it's obvious when you read the book that, oh, the same creative drive that he has to explore the world around him and have, and have all these unusual experiences, he applied to building the video game companies that he, that made him very wealthy. So it says, "Explore and create. These words are inextricable from each other. They feed each other. We are fortunate to live in such a remarkable era for exploration and creation. I often reflect on my own luck. I was lucky to be born at the dawn of personal computers. I was lucky to be the son of a scientist and an explorer. My father was a NASA astronaut.

• 9:32David Senra?

  I was lucky to learn early on that a deep understanding of the world around you makes you its master." That is the most important sentence to me on this entire page. I want to read it again. "I was lucky to learn early on that a deep understanding of the world around you makes it, makes you its master." There's two quotes that I think about all the time that jumped into my mind when I got to that sentence. And the first is by Marc Andreessen. He's like, "The world is a very malleable place. If you know what you want and you go for it with maximum energy and drive and passion, the world will often reconfigure itself around you much more quickly and easily than you think." I think Richard would agree with that quote. He would also agree with this quote from Steve Jobs. "Life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact, and that is everything around you that you call life

• 10:15David Senra?

  was made up by people that were no smarter than you. And you can change it. You can influence it. You can build your own things that other people can use." And that is a mindset that Richard applied not only to the building of his house, the building of his companies, the building of the games, the virtual worlds. In fact, one of the taglines of, I think, either his first or second company is, "We create worlds." But also, he did all these like extreme, in-person, live, interactive events. And some of those are actually in the video. I'll link that video in the show notes in case you want to watch it. It's about 20 minutes long. So let's go back to the book. "I do buy into the adage that luck is the intersection of preparation and opportunity. Opportunities parade past us all the time. The key is that you must be paying attention to see them. You must be willing to take risks.

• 10:58David Senra?

  You must expose yourself to the possibility of massive failure," which he does. He puts everything on the line. Wait till you get to that point where his first game company almost fails. And it's directly traced back to a decision he made. And so not only do you have to be willing to take risks, but you have to believe. And you must believe in what you're doing so much that you do it anyway. This attitude has helped me create and build two world impacting industries: computer games and commercial spaceflight." And then he continues this line of thought with some ideas that helped him build his career. The first thing is he thinks about building games just the same thing as creating art. "Interactive stories are where creativity and exploration meet. It is a new art form. Once I've had the pleasure of helping shape what's fascinating..." So this book, I think, came out in 2017.

• 11:41David Senra?

  He starts building computer games in the end of the late 1970s. He ends this book saying, "Hey, we're still in the infancy of creating virtual worlds, of the gaming industry at large." And one thing that he repeats over and over again in the book is something that helped him create his games is the fact that he's just spent a lot of time learning broadly. So this is the first time he mentions it. He mentions it over and over again. "I created some of the first virtual worlds. I did it with little to go on, largely through trial and error. Like any good artist in any other medium, I became a polymath. I studied subjects from philosophy and religious history to architecture, languages, physics, and fashion." And then he tells us what he believes. He believes that games are, in fact, the single most important form of media.

• 12:25David Senra?

  Games have become much more than pleasant diversions. They have a huge opportunity to be the media form of the 21st century. And then he ends the introduction with, "Even the way the book, even the way this book is created is different. You don't have to read it chronologically. I did, of course." But he even says, "You can read this book straight through, but if you prefer to jump around to follow your own passion and interests, I encourage you to do so. I hope by exploring the pages that follow and taking on the challenges I offer within them, thinking about what you would do in many of these same situations, you will feel as though you have embarked on your own adventure." And so, Richard, like every person that we study, has like this deep base of historical knowledge. He's very curious about the achievements of people that lived long before he did. And he talks about like, "These people are my heroes."

• 13:09David Senra?

  He's gonna mention somebody that has had a huge influence on my life as well. So he says, "My heroes are people who took epic journeys into the unknown, often at substantial personal risk. I am simply following the path that they carved into history." That is fantastic. And so, he's gonna mention Shackleton. "I fancy myself an admirer of men like polar explorer Ernest Shackleton." So I read the most famous book on Shackleton back on, it was like almost two years ago. It was episode number 144. The book's called Endurance: Shackleton's Incredible Voyage. And I actually have another biography of Shackleton. Check this out. So, very soon, there'll be two books coming. This guy named Ranuff, I think it's Ranuff Finness or something like that? Finennis? I don't know how to pronounce his name, but he's an explorer.

• 13:54David Senra?

  He wrote this autobiography that has maybe the best title for an autobiography that I've ever heard. And he titled it Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know. So, in addition to being an explorer, he also is like a prolific writer, and he wrote a biography on Shackleton. And so, I have both those books. I'll eventually read them and then I'll, of course, make podcasts on them. And so, I've told you this before, but I see Shackleton's face like several times every day, because every time I pick up my phone, he's my lock screen. And it's not like you can get some, in fact, the, I've seen covers of books with like Shackleton, with like, you know, clean shaven, looks, you know, like he's well rested. No, no, no. This is Shackleton mid-expedition, beard with ice and snow encrusted in it. Looks like he's on the borderline of death.

• 14:38David Senra?

  And I wanted to put it on the lock screen of my phone because of his family motto, "By endurance we conquer." So every time I pick up my phone, I glance, I see Shackleton, and I'm reminded, "Don't even think for a second." That you're gonna give up. Quitting is not an option and you can just win by just endure. He says, "By endurance we conquer." And I like to repeat that to myself and really think about it. I mean, if you really think about what he's saying, that is an entire story told in four words. So anyways, Shackleton is hugely influential. He pops up in these books over and over again. So if you haven't read that book or haven't listened to that podcast, I highly recommend. I think your life would be better knowing Shackleton and his story than not knowing it. Let's go to where he's a teenager.

• 15:21David Senra?

  He's gonna start his first, he's gonna start his first game when he's still a senior in high school. And so the prehistory to him starting his own game is playing other games. And before computer games, he was obsessed with tabletop games. The most important tabletop game that he ever played was Dungeon and Dragons. And he's gonna describe like the influence that D and D has on him building his games. But really, I think about, like, you can think about D and D as a metaphor for building a company. And this idea, if we want to continue this metaphor, it's gonna continue over the next two pages. And just a few paragraphs for you. Here's an example. "D and D is a role-playing game, an interactive story that is negotiated between the narrator, the dungeon master, and the participants or players." So remember, we're not, we're not reading this to think of like what D and D is or the idea of playing games.

• 16:06David Senra?

  We're using this as a metaphor for what it's like to build a company. "The dungeon master, or founder, or game master, creates the elaborate fantasy, and the people playing with him or her take the roles of specific characters in that story, interacting with the other players to solve problems and to move the adventure forward." And so I got to that paragraph and I reread that, the last part of the last sentence again. "Interacting with the other players to solve problems and move the adventure forward." And that's exactly, I think that's one of the best metaphors for building a company. It made me think of the way that if you're, like, so if I could bring back One person, one great entrepreneur from history from the dead. And I can only choose one. And I can't, you know, obviously, I think the obvious example is Steve Jobs.

• 16:50David Senra?

  So we're going to say, hey, you can't pick Steve Jobs in that case. My number one pick is Edwin Land. And you probably already picked up on that because I've done, what, four podcasts of on him. I've read five books on him. I'm about to reread that book, Insisting on the Impossible. Hopefully, in the next few weeks, I'll make another podcast on it. But that's the way he talked about in multiple cases where he's just like, you know, he ran, he built Polaroid, he ran Polaroid for, his tenure at the head of his company was longer than almost any other founder, executive in American history. It was like 50 years or, like, he started when he was, I think, what, 18, 19? And he got kicked out, unfortunately, when he was like, what, 70, something like that? I don't have the exact numbers in front of me. But it was an extremely, decade after decade after decade of building the same company, which is really fascinating.

• 17:33David Senra?

  But he would always say, he's like, this is like, I feel like I'm leading my, like, I'm running the company like I'm leading students on this grand scientific experiment. But towards the end of the book, A Triumph of Genius, which I covered all the way back on Founders number 134, he gives, Edwin Land gives this acceptance speech. And he uses that opportunity to encourage you to continue the sense of adventure and exploration that your descendants had. And so I want to read this. This is a, this is only a few sentences, but this is Land. This is a direct quote from Edwin Land. "Land chose to pay tribute to the process of invention by analogy to the basic American sense of adventure and exploration." And now this is where, what, this is now Land talking. "We are becoming a country of scientists.

• 18:15David Senra?

  And however much we become a country of scientists, we will always remain first of all that same group of adventurous, transcontinental explorers, pushing our way from wherever it is comfortable into some more inviting, unknown, and dangerous region. These regions today are not geographic. They are not the gold mines of the West. They are the gold mines of the intellect. And when the great scientists and the innumerable scientists of today respond to that ancient American urge for adventure."

• 18:52David Senra?

  Then the form that adventure takes is the form of invention. And obviously, inventions are usually built around companies, right? Or, excuse me, companies are usually built around inventions. He invented instant photography. That is what Polaroid was built around. So let's go back to that. So it says, "We respond to that ancient American urge for adventure. Then the form that adventure takes is the form of invention. And when an invention is made by this new tribe of highly literate, highly scientific people, new things open up." And then lands, deep historical knowledge. Like, think about the base of, think about the things that were in that man's head. And so to me, when I'm reading this last sentence here, he's drawing on everything, not only everything he experienced, but everything that he's studied and he knows about human history.

• 19:36David Senra?

  And he wraps it up for us here. Always those scientific adventurers have the characteristic, no matter how much you know, no matter how educated you are in science, no matter how imaginative you are, of leading you to say, "I'll be darned." Whoever thought such a domain existed? And so what the hell does that have to do with what you and I are talking about? Because where we are in this book, where we're in this story, there is no such thing as a computer game, right? He's only thinking, "I'm obsessed with D and D. I'm a teenage dungeon master." And you're gonna see, as this story continues, this like, "Oh, wow. Well, okay, not only can I make my own game," right? And then he progresses through trial and error in doing that. But then, uh, he's like, "Oh, wait, I can sell this thing

• 20:20David Senra?

  that I was doing for free, that I'm completely obsessed with, that I love so much? And then by doing that, I can go on my own adventure? I can create my own company? That is one of the best feelings in the world." So I jumped ahead a little bit, but it's just fascinating how all these things, like, I just love the fact how all these people in different domains are right, in completely different experiences. They just think, and they arrive, and they're like, "Oh, this is truly possible to create something new, something that never existed." That is insane to me. So let me go back to the book, because I'm getting way ahead of myself, and we'll get there in time. This is before the emergence of computer games. So he's talking about, "Hey, I'm a teenager. I'm an online, or, excuse me, I'm a teenage dungeon master in D and D." There's going to be a slight digression here, which is why I started the podcast where I did,

• 21:05David Senra?

  because a huge theme of the book is the importance of storytelling. Steve Jobs has told you and I over and over again that storytellers are the most powerful people in the world. Richard tells us that, listen, storytelling is extremely powerful, just like Steve Jobs said, but it also can be learned. You can learn how to do this. I learned that each game was only as good. So again, this other paragraph here, too, let me tie back to what I started this on. This is really, to me, a metaphor of building a company. Well, let me just read it to you, and then I'll add something on to it. "I learned that each game was only as good as the ability of the game master to craft a story and manage the negotiations into a compelling narrative. We all took turns being game master, and it was quickly obvious that while some people were very good at it, most were not. That is when I began to really understand the power of storytelling."

• 21:49David Senra?

  So let me tie what Richard's saying in this book. There's with another book I saw an excerpt from. I haven't read it yet. The guy that worked with Steve and helped lead the development of the iPod, Tony Fadell, has this new book, and I saw this quote from it, and it was on something that's very unique. And again, it's all going to be tied to the fact that Steve Jobs knew the power of story. And it's on the fact that the story defines the product, and it's not the other way around. So I just want to read a few paragraphs from this real quick. "Steve was a master at this. Before he told you what a product did, he always took time to explain why you needed it. And he made it all look so natural, so easy. I'd watched other CEOs give pitches before, and they hardly know what their supposedly revolutionary product was.

• 22:33David Senra?

  Sometimes they didn't even know how to hold it right. But customers and the press would always be in awe of Steve's presentations. It's a miracle, they would say. He's so calm, so collected. No prepared speeches, slides with almost no words. He just knows what he's talking about, and it all hangs together. It never felt like a speech. It felt like a conversation, like a story." And so when I got to that part, I'm like, okay, that's, those are three short sentences. It never felt like a speech. It felt like a conversation, like a story. And if you think about it, storytelling is as old as language. So let's go back to this. And the reason is simple. Steve didn't just read a script for the presentation.

• 23:13David Senra?

  He had been telling a version of that same story every single day for months and months during development. To us, to his employees, to his friends, to his family. He was constantly working on it, refining it. Every time he'd get a puzzled look or a request for clarification from his unwitting early audience, he would sand it down, tweak it slightly, until it was perfectly polished. And this is the punchline here in the last, I'll read from this. "It was the story of the product and it drove what we built." So let's go back to exactly what Richard's telling us in the book. "We all took turns being game master and it was quickly obvious that while some people were very good at it, most were not.

• 23:55David Senra?

  Is that not exactly what Tony Fadell just explained to you and I? Most CEOs didn't know what they were talking about, couldn't even hold their product correctly. Steve not only knew it, but he used that story to drive product development. That's insane. That's an insane thought. That's why I began to really, that's when I began to really understand the power of storytelling." And so Richard's like, okay, I gotta, I gotta, like, how do I get better at this? "I was far from the best storyteller at the D and D gatherings and my first stories were not good at all. Watching other game masters, I knew their narratives were better thought through than mine. I became a better storyteller by observing the strengths and weaknesses of other game masters." And so the reason I'm giving you this background is because what he says here on the next page.

• 24:37David Senra?

  "Playing D and D was the seed that would eventually grow into my elaborate computer games." He is telling us what I'm learning from this experience, I will use later for creating games. And then I use the creation of games to build the creation of my business empire, my financial empire, the things that open up and unlocks all these other opportunities. You know, he had to pay for a private space flight. I think it was like $20 million, $15 million, I can't remember exactly. That doesn't happen without all the stuff that's happening now as a teenager. I go back to this. The more people enjoyed listening to my stories, the more I enjoyed telling them. Every storyteller is familiar with the pleasure that comes from sitting with your friends around a fire, pouring a few drinks, and weaving a yarn. This is one of my favorite sentences in the book.

• 25:22David Senra?

  "This was man's first form of entertainment, and when done well, is still his best." Storytelling, think about it, storytelling is as old as language. Much of my life is about telling stories, the real ones I've lived and those that I make up. More than anything else that I am or have accomplished, I am a storyteller. Okay, so I want to go back in his life when he's younger, and this is when he sees his first video game. I'm always amazed at how much the work that we can do can influence others. He's about to see, the first video game that he ever played was Pong. Pong was developed at Atari. Atari was founded by Nolan Bushnell. Nolan Bushnell winds up hiring a 19-year-old Steve Jobs and mentoring him.

• 26:04David Senra?

  And if you ever want to read a book, a really easy to read book that's written by a crazy character, that'd be Nolan Bushnell, obviously. I did it for Founder's Number 36. It's Finding the Next Steve Jobs: How to Find, Keep, and Nurture Talent. Nolan's very unique. Not only did he found, think about it, he founded Atari, and then he also founded Chuck E. Cheese. And that book starts with Nolan, you know, making, at the time, his companies were making hundreds of millions of dollars a year, and he meets up, he's throwing this huge party in Paris, and like a 25-year-old or 26-year-old Steve Jobs shows up, and they wind up having, the next day, they wind up going for a long walk through Paris, and they're talking about company building. And so that discussion that they're having influenced Nolan to write the book later on. So it's very interesting. It's very quick to read, too.

• 26:48David Senra?

  So, "The very first video game I played was Pong. I was 11 years old, and my friends and I wired the game into the back of our TV and began playing. It was magical. This was the simplest computer game imaginable, but being able to play a game on the family TV was astonishing. It was a wholly new form of entertainment. I had no concept whether the technology was simple or complex, because it seemed so far beyond my own skills. The idea that I might create my own games had never occurred to me. I had never seen a computer of any kind, and personal computers did not even exist, but I was intrigued." And so Richard's entire life changed. Everything begins, his entire life begins really with his introduction to the first computer.

• 27:33David Senra?

  And the way he got access to the computer is wild. Just imagine this taking place today. It would never happen. The only place that we knew with computers was NASA. And with my father being an astronaut, we had strong connections there. So we solicited the support of one of the space agency's prime contractors, Lockheed Martin. They allowed us to use their computer room, which is a pretty good indication of how lightly regarded those rudimentary computers were. Think about it, one of our nation's leading defense industry contractors, a key NASA partner, permitted a group of teenagers to play with its computers. And so I have a ton of highlights across these next few pages. Really, the reason I'm bringing this to your attention, because this is what the beginning of an industry feels like.

• 28:18David Senra?

  And since humans will never stop creating new industries, it's important to know like what they look like at the very beginning, when calling it an industry would be ridiculous. And so on one of these early computers, he sees there's this text-based game, right? There's no graphics at this time. It's called Adventure. So it says Adventure had no graphics, only text, and it forced you to make decisions. So he gives an example, "To the north, you see lights of a town. To the south, you see a sign that says, 'To the dungeon.' Which way do you go?" That's all the game did. Each location had a text blurb. You're in front of the house. You see a front door. You also see a mailbox and a doormat. What do you do? By exploring the scene and collecting items, the player was drawn further into the adventure.

• 29:00David Senra?

  So these are the exact kind of games, only with visuals, that he's going to wind up creating a few years later. There was absolutely nothing to look at, but I was mesmerized. I could visualize everything in my mind. And so what do you do? Your natural inclination is like, I love this game. How do I get new ones? Remember, this is what the beginning of an industry feels like. I found other text games by luck. There was no place to buy them. Mostly, they were spread virally on the so-called sneaker net, which meant that somebody copied a game from one computer on a disk and loaded it onto another computer. Copies of games were passed hand to hand. So these games start traveling by word of mouth. They start building up this strong, passionate user base. And so, computer stores are like, hey, we should start selling them.

• 29:45David Senra?

  And this is how they sold them. Computer games began to hang games in plastic Ziploc bags on a pegboard. The creators of the games did not consider it a business. When I began making my own games, there was no economic incentive. It never occurred to me that this could be a career. And this is when all the time and effort he put into learning Dungeon and Dragons and being a learning storyteller, storytelling, really comes in hands. I learned how to play Dungeon and Dragons, and I began writing small pieces of software. And suddenly, it occurred to me that I could combine the two. And so, he's astonished, he's really enthusiastic. He needs access to a computer, though, more reliable than going to Lockheed Martin. So, his high school, there's a computer that pops up at his high school one day,

• 30:29David Senra?

  and he does something that's really, really smart. I discovered another computer at my high school. They seemed to have just appeared one day, but they beckoned to me. I convinced the teaching staff to let me have access to them for one period each day. I would work on my project, which was my games, and they would monitor my progress and give me whatever grade they saw fit. They agreed that we could use this "class", in which I taught myself computer basic, to fulfill my foreign language requirement. And so, then he goes into how he learned to do this. Before I leave this page, though, what popped in my mind as I'm reading about the very early, like, there's barely an industry here for computer games. They're selling maybe a few on a pegboard in a plastic bag, right? It made me think of like, how crazy it was. When I've read, I don't know how many books, on Henry Ford.

• 31:14David Senra?

  And so, what's crazy is when you learn about the arc of Henry Ford's career and life. In about a 20-year span, Henry Ford goes from working on an early internal combustion engine in his kitchen. To winding up being the owning the most, what might have been at the time, the most valuable private company owned by one person. When he buys out the Dodge Brothers and the rest of his investors. I think this is, if my memory serves me correct, it was around 1919 that he owned 100, he wound up getting back 100% and owning 100% of the Ford Motor Company. And I think at that point, in 1919 dollars, his net worth was like 500 million dollars. The company was worth 500 million dollars in 1919 dollars. And the reason that's important to know is because you go back, you know,

• 31:57David Senra?

  go back in history 20 years and he's like, like you're looking, imagine like you could have like a bird's eye view, you're looking at a young Henry Ford, you know, I think he's in his 30s, maybe like 35, something like that. And he's working on this, this smelly, leaky, like primitive engine. And like, hey, that guy right there that we're looking at 20 years from now is going to own maybe the most private, most valuable private company in the world. It's hard not to be awestruck at how much can change in one lifetime. So he goes into, okay, this is what's learning to program. Like imagine trying to learn how to make a computer program, a game in the late 1970s. This is what it was like. I learned through trial and error and mostly error. At the time, there was no computer industry. There was no standards.

• 32:40David Senra?

  A few magazines published programs people had written for specific computers they were using. And it'd be like a 20 line program that would add numbers or balance a checkbook. So I knew I could program a computer to do complex equations. The more important question was to me was whether I could create entirely new worlds. My real objective was crafting a role playing game. I wrote 28 programs on that teletype. I know there were exactly 28 programs because I named them DND1, DND2, and so on, until I reached my 28th attempt. Many of them were never finished. I'd get halfway through a game and would have learned so much about the process that I would decide to start over. This time utilizing my newly obtained skills to create an even better structure. By the time I was making DND28, I was working at Computerland.

• 33:26David Senra?

  So this is some of the stuff that computers, like some of the computers that were for sale in 1979, we sold the Commodore 64 and the Apple II. And the hand, and he says the seemingly handmade computer called the Soul 20. These machines sold as much as three, for as much as $3,000. They had considerably less computing power than a drugstore cellphone has today. And in limited amount of available software, and the limited amount of available software was terrible. So he's working at the computer store, he's still making games. And the fact that they have, now he has access to Apple II, he's like, oh, up until this point, he was the only one playing his games. And now other people, either they're either being his coworkers and then his boss, are gonna start playing his games. The real benefit of working in computer land was that I had access to an Apple II and I was able to write my games on it.

• 34:10David Senra?

  This meant for the first time that other people could play my games. They enjoyed them. The owner of the store told me one day, "Richard, the game that you've created that we're all playing is obviously a more compelling reason to have one of these machines than anything else that's out there. We really need to be selling this on the store wall." Selling? Wow, that's an interesting idea. The first game I made for Apple II was named Alcabeth, Alcabeth. I had borrowed the name from a Tolkien story, which is by for the longest, most complex, and most difficult book I have ever read. I was enraptured. J.R.R. Tolkien had changed my life in that video I referenced earlier.

• 34:53David Senra?

  Not only does he have like first editions of a bunch of Tolkien's novels, but he has like pre, like pre editions, additions that were sent to his editor. And so, once he completes the game, he spends what he thought at the time was an insane amount of money, like making copies and saying, "Hey, I'm gonna try to sell this thing." The game was so personal and our expectations were so small that I included my home address and phone number and asked players to call me when they finished the game. It cost my entire life savings, $200, to produce copies of it. So he buys Ziploc bags to put the game in, and his mom is the one that actually draws the cover art for the game. And this is just an amazing paragraph. I love what he's about to say here. This was a state of the art operation then.

• 35:36David Senra?

  We hung them up in the store and in the first week sold about 12 copies at 20 bucks each. I would estimate that at the time, there were probably fewer than a couple of dozen people anywhere in the world creating computer games. And not one of us could have imagined we were creating an industry that in less than three decades would become the largest and most successful entertainment industry in history. That a game would gross more in a few weeks than the most successful movie in history had earned in decades. That's an incredible thought, an incredible paragraph. Gets even crazier here. This is his first game. He's about to make 150 grand as a high school senior in the 70s.

• 36:20David Senra?

  Within weeks, the game was being pub-- within weeks of the game being published, I got a call from California Pacific Computer Company. I knew who they were. They had published games by Bill Budge, a gaming pioneer whom I had greatly admired. They told me that they wanted to distribute the game nationally. We need you to come out to California right away. I was flabbergasted. I was 18 years old. When I arrived, I was met at the airport by a guy in a new DeLorean. Rather than driving me to the California Pacific office, we went directly to an apartment near the airport. Uh oh. It belonged to a friend of the California Pacific owner. In the living room, there was a chest of drawers. This so-called friend opened up the top drawer and I was stunned to see it was filled with

• 37:04David Senra?

  plastic wrapped bricks of cocaine. Welcome to the video game industry. And so that's something he talks about quite a bit in the book. The fact that a lot of these people that owned these like very primitive game publishing, like some of the first game publishing companies in the world, a lot of them were doing coke, a lot of them were on all kinds of drugs. They were drinking and a lot of them just, they're like fly by night operate, fly by night operations. They'd pop up, they'd distribute games, make some money. That would go up their nose and then they'd disappear. And so he's going to have a bunch of bad experiences with, with game publishers. That is going to lead him to say, hey, forget it. I'll just do this myself, but we're not there yet. So this is him making money doing something that he used to do for free.

• 37:46David Senra?

  California Pacific's version of the game was priced at $34, of which I received $5. They sold 30,000 copies. I had earned $150,000, more than twice my father's yearly salary as an astronaut. How crazy is that statement? He's 18, selling games, he's making twice what a NASA astronaut makes. It was a phenomenal amount of money, enough to buy a house. It was so much money that it didn't even really sink in. It all seemed like some kind of fantasy. We all thought it was a fluke. It was great that someone wanted to pay me for doing what I was already doing. So he starts working on his next game. This next game, he doesn't know, at this point in his life, it's gonna, he went to updating the series called Ultima. I think he said for like 25 or 30 years.

• 38:30David Senra?

  It's going to make him wealthy. And we see a really important point that pops up over and over again, is the fact that you really need to hold on, so that future technology can unlock more powerful capabilities. So I had a weird thought when I got to this point, because he's like, okay, well, my game was really basic. Now, we're fast forwarding a few years, the computer industry's growing, it's like, the computers get more, keep getting more and more capabilities, they have more and more storage, and so therefore, I can actually build more and more complex games. I actually thought of Sam Zemurray, or more specifically, the book, The Fish Ate the Whale, the one I just reread on for episode 255. Because if you think about that, before the steamship, you could sell a banana, like the market for your bananas was essentially your neighborhood.

• 39:13David Senra?

  And after this invention of a new technology, it unlocks, then you could sell a banana all over North and South America. You can combine the banana, this new technology of steamship, and then two or three very formidable founders, like Andrew Preston and Minor Keith. And the combination of those events wind up creating one of the world's first truly global corporations. And I hear myself saying this, and it sounds fake. It sounds like that can't possibly be true. But it was. And so we see the same, a very similar thing here. He's like, okay, now I can start building way more complex games. I wanted to put more meat on my games' bones. And advances in technology made it possible. Ultima was going to be my first virtual world.

• 39:55David Senra?

  It took about nine months of concerted effort to create, and the available memory... Increased from 48K of RAM to 64K. Why is that important? That meant I could add a series of activities that were rich and diverse. And previously, you were incapable of doing so. And so, again, I think that's a main theme in the history of entrepreneurship. Hold on, so future technology can unlock more powerful capabilities and more opportunities that you cannot do yet, but will be able to do five years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years in the future. So eventually, the company at Cinecine is going to go under because of all the drug use. And they wind up, essentially, instead of reinvesting in the company, they're just taking all that money and doing drugs. So he's going to leave.

• 40:36David Senra?

  But really, what set Richard apart was everybody else, and I saw this in the Sid Meier game as well, the publishers are really, they were not really interested in being creative. They really just wanted the game creators to, hey, this thing that you made successful, just make another one. Like, you don't, like, let's not innovate, let's just keep making sequels, and let's just stick with what is working. And Richard did not want to do that. He says, "My desire was to make the world of my games as real as possible, like Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. To do that, I wanted to design the player's experience from his or her first encounter with the game. The moment they looked at the box, except there was no box." Remember, we're in the malleable early days of an industry. They're selling them in Ziploc bags with like this little paper, black and white paper,

• 41:20David Senra?

  with some, you know, basic artwork and the name of the game and who wrote it and his home address and his phone number, right? So he says, "In addition to putting the game in a box, I wanted to include a detailed map of the world, of this fantasy virtual world that he's making. I wanted instruction manuals that did not give directions like, insert the disk into drive one and press the A button, but rather describe the magical history of the world. I had this great dream. Meanwhile, the publishers just wanted to put it in a plastic bag and hang it on a hook." So he goes to a couple of different publishers, and he's like, you know what, forget this, I'm going to do it myself. "By then, I knew enough about the computer game industry to understand that it wasn't actually an industry. It was an association of companies run by people who had no more experience than I

• 42:04David Senra?

  did and who popped up, published a few games, and then disappeared. So my brother, Robert, and I decided to start our own company. We named our company Origin Systems." He's eventually going to sell this company to Electronic Arts. Robert created the tagline by which the company became known. "We create worlds." And the headquarters for Origin Systems is their parents' house. So it says the company was based in my parents' house. Everything about it was informal. One night, for example, we were sitting in our office, which was actually my mother's kitchen table, when a car stopped in front of the house and a strange man got out. He appeared oddly disheveled with long hair and a long beard. "My name is Dr. Cat. I read your ad. I'm here to work. I'm a programmer." "That's great," we replied.

• 42:48David Senra?

  "We need a programmer right now." He was Origin's first outside employee, and he worked for us for 15 years. So now he has to try to make the transition from "I'm just making games" to "I'm building a company." So he's got to learn how to build a company. And that is, he does that the same way that he learned how to program games, through trial and error. Far more quickly than anyone imagined, computer gaming became a huge business. And for me, there was a steep learning curve from creator and designer to businessman. And so his brother has an MBA, and he's like, "Listen, your work habits suck." And the reason that's important is because they said the leader's habits become everyone's habits. So he's like, "Can you stick to like some kind of schedule?" And Richard, being young and not realizing that, like, he's like, "Well, I don't know why I have to do that.

• 43:32David Senra?

  It seems to be working out." So there's just going to be a lot of conflict between brothers. And it has to happen that way. I mean, I don't know of a single co-founder relationship that is smooth. Like, there's going to be argument. Like, you have a lot of, not only your time and your energies invested in your business, your emotions are invested in your business, your finances are invested in your business. It's impossible to think there's going to be no conflict. My brother was always hypercritical of me from being the person, being the last person to arrive at the office and often the first to leave. If you asked him to describe my work habits for the first five or 10 years that we worked together, he would say something like, "Richard would roll into the office around noon, or sometime between noon and 2:00 in the afternoon. He'd play around in his office with his rubber band gun and code, and then do coding experiments in his mind that had little to do with actually making a game.

• 44:16David Senra?

  Richard would might create some code or something else for a few hours. Then, come dark, he'd leave, and we wouldn't see him again until the next day." And so Richard says, "In my defense, I was living an unstructured life that was working very well for me. This was my most productive time creatively and economically, so I didn't understand why I needed to change." He is going to eventually change and like have some semblance of a schedule. "I felt like I was clearly doing enough to create the next bestselling game because money was rolling in. I might have been sitting in my office discussing philosophy with other developers or reading a book about ancient languages, but I believe those little experiments were essential to my creative process." And so there's a lot of tension, but that tension actually is beneficial for the company. Robert and I are very different people, but there's simply no way that Origin would have gone forward without both our unique contributions.

• 44:59David Senra?

  We argued often and we argued passionately. Both of us were incredibly confident in our beliefs about the right way to proceed to build our company. And they wind up getting into a physical fight over a pencil? Says neither one of us remembers the specific issue that led to this fight, but somehow it came down to the ownership of a number two pencil. I started to leave Robert's office with the pencil. He told me to leave it there because it was his office and therefore his pencil. I insisted on taking—this sounds so immature, looking back. But again, I think it's just—it's obviously—there is tension building up. You need some kind of release and the pencil is just a way—like the valve that they're gonna use here. I insisted on taking it with me because I felt it was my pencil. We started shouting at each other and the argument quickly escalated into a shoving match.

• 45:41David Senra?

  All of our frustrations suddenly burst and the next thing I knew, we were literally wrestling in the office. And the benefit is this, he says, "We never had a serious fight again." So it had to happen and then they buried the hatchet. This is where Richard almost destroys the entire company and like, think about in the early days of a fast-changing industry, one decision can—uh, one bad decision, one catastrophic decision can tank the entire company. Uh, so at the time, they're just making games for Apple because Apple II is dominating. But—and he's like, "Oh, if Apple II is dominating now, it's obviously gonna keep dominating." And didn't realize how fast IBM is gonna take market share. Apple had always been our lead market for sales, so we wrote codes for the Apple.

• 46:23David Senra?

  I saw no reason to change strategies for the latest platform that had been introduced, which is the IBM PC. As far as I was concerned, there was no comparison between the Apple II and the IBM PC. I concluded that the IBM PC would never pose a threat to Apple's dominance of the market. I was supremely confident it would never compete with Apple. So we continued developing our products for the Apple II, knowing that we could translate them later on to the PC. And this is his main— Like the lesson that he took away from this, almost destroying his company. It would have been almost impossible for me to be more wrong. That was one of my first big lessons. And it is this, what I think is not necessarily right. And perhaps not what everyone else thinks. So he's saying, Apple's going to dominate.

• 47:06David Senra?

  Everyone else says, nope, I'm between, I'm going to choose between Apple and IBM PC. I'm choosing IBM PC. In less than six months, the IBM PC became the dominant machine in the market. Everything else, including the Apple II, was suddenly irrelevant. So due to my mistake, our company was caught developing products for a market that was rapidly disappearing. This means we would have to start from scratch without any employees who knew how to program on the IBM PC. We would have to retrain our existing staff or hire new people. And so we also say, okay, what do we do here? And he's going to make a decision. He's like, I'm not going to close down the company. I'm going all in. When you make a mistake like this, you can either take your loss or double down. Robert and I discussed closing the company and walking away with the several million dollars that we had in our personal bank accounts.

• 47:51David Senra?

  The alternative was to reinvest everything the company had, everything the company was projected to earn, and everything that Robert and I could borrow personally. The logical decision was to close the company. Robert and I decided to go all in and co-sign million dollar loans. If we failed, not only would I lose the house, my house, but my brother and I would lose the company and be millions of dollars in debt. But we bet on our capabilities. The race was on to get my next ultimate game out with the acceptable quality before we ran out of cash. Okay, so I want to pause before I continue this story. Think about what's happening here. He made a catastrophic decision.

• 48:35David Senra?

  He had previous, up until this point, had a company. Everything was going well. His games were successful. He's building out the ultimate series. Him and his brother both are making millions and millions of dollars doing something they love. And now suddenly he finds himself in a position where he's staring at the bankruptcy of not only personal bankruptcy, but the destruction of his company. And everything rests on, can we get this game out on time and in the highest possible quality? If we do so, we have a successful company. If we don't, we have utter failure. And so the note I left myself on this page when I got to this point. It says, "Dune. What is in the box?" And so that is from this movie that just came out, Dune. I've seen it three times. Visually, the movie is absolutely spectacular. I actually had to watch it again because I haven't read the books yet.

• 49:17David Senra?

  And my friend that has, I had to ask, like, hey, can you fill in what is going on here? But there's a scene in the movie that is exactly what is taking place in this book. So the main character of Dune is this young, young man, young boy. And so I took notes on the movie because it made me think of what's happening in the book. So I want to read that part from Dune first. And I think it adds great context to what Robert and Richard are about to have to endure. So one of the most powerful characters in this world is this old lady. So it says, the old lady, these are my notes. "The old lady makes the young boy put his hand in a box and then says, 'I hold at your neck a poisoned needle. Instant death.

• 49:58David Senra?

  The test is simple. Remove your hand from the box and you die.'" The boy asks, "What's in the box?" "Pain." One of the best maxims you will find in the history of entrepreneurship comes from the founder of Four Seasons when he said, "Excellence is the capacity to take pain." If Richard and Robert are going to get to the other side of what's happening in their lives right now, they are going to have to endure pain. "The test is simple. Remove your hand from the box," meaning quit, "and you die." Every month, Robert and I would sit down and look at the numbers compared to our progress. And every month, the situation looked more ominous.

• 50:39David Senra?

  In family lore, we refer to this as the year of Richard's fetal position. When we reviewed the financials, I found it so difficult to listen that I would sit in a chair in a corner in the fetal position with my legs curled up under me. After all the success that we had enjoyed, it was extraordinarily difficult to deal with the possibility of failure, especially given that my mistake had brought it on. I barely slept. And when I did sleep, the nightmarish scenario of what I could have, should have done, played over and over in my mind.

• 51:18David Senra?

  Desperation can be an extremely productive motivator. We had only enough money to keep the doors open till the original ship date. If this game wasn't published on time and with the highest possible quality, we were through. We worked every possible minute for months while at the same time resisting the urge to cut quality just to get it done. As a result, this was our cleanest execution of a game. Somehow, we managed to ship it on time. I managed to unfetal myself. We had been saved.

• 52:02David Senra?

  He kept his hand in the box. So the book goes into a lot of detail about how he makes, like, what, all the preparation he does and all the learning he has to do to actually be able to create a world and to make it feel authentic and detail oriented. And so if you find this podcast interesting, I obviously highly recommend you pick up the book and read it to get all the detail. But there is just one thing I want to pull out, and it's when Richard's working on this problem of how to create a language from scratch. And I had a bizarre thought when I read this paragraph. I'm going to read the paragraph to you first, then I'm going to read the note I left myself. And I actually read the note. So obviously, when I go through the book, I make all the notes and highlights. And then before, usually the night before I record, I go back through and I reread over all of them and really like try to absorb and make sure I understand it before I sit down and talk to you.

• 52:45David Senra?

  And I got to this note, and I'm like, oh, this is my favorite note in the entire book. I didn't remember writing it. And so again, I just, when I'm reading, I just go on pure instinct. I'm just like, okay, this is interesting to me, let me highlight it. And then what is the first thing that pops to mind? Like, don't put too much thought into it. Just like, what is your natural, like, what is your first reaction? And so hopefully, this makes sense to you. So this is what Richard wrote. "I spent a lot of time working on this problem, so crafting languages, right? Crafting believable languages and scripts is essential to creating any realistic fantasy world, since language and writing is the foundation of a society."

• 53:20David Senra?

  Tolkien, the greatest reality crafter I have ever discovered, once said that his stories grew out of the languages he created. So this is what popped in my mind when I got to this section. You can think of the belief system of the founder as the language of the company. That is why it is usually written down and repeated over and over again. The belief system of the founder is the language of the company. So now we fast forward into his career where he's realizing, hey, up until this point, I've been really imitating. And now it's time for me to actually create something unique. This is one of the most important things that I've learned from any book. You know, what are we at 265, I think, something like that? The imitation precedes creation.

• 54:05David Senra?

  I wish, like, that's such a great maxim. I wish I could say I came up with it. It's not. It was written in Stephen King's autobiography, which I covered on Founders 210. Imitation precedes creation. And so many people's like, I don't know where to start. Doesn't matter. No one knows where to start. Do what everybody else does. You imitate, and then you'll imitate long enough and realize, hey, well, I have my own idea. Then you'll start slowly mixing in your own insights into what you're imitating. And then you'll keep going down this path. And eventually, that is where your creation will come from, something unique. Imitation precedes creation. Coming from somebody that sold 350 million books, that's wild. Five years into a very successful career, I had an important decision to make. My other games had borrowed liberally from existing fantasy stories. None of them were particularly original. Think about how crazy this is, right?

• 54:47David Senra?

  Up until this point, he's just taking things that he read, games that he played, experiences he had beforehand, applying that to a new art form, new like medium, which in his case is the computer programs, right? And even though nothing was original, right? Up until that point, very little original thought there. He had still made millions and millions and millions of dollars. There's a lesson there. My other games had borrowed liberally from existing fantasy stories. None of them were particularly original, other than the fact that they were being told in a computer game format. All of these stories had inspired me. So he's talking about Narnia and Time Bannons and Lord of the Rings. I'm skipping over all that. All these stories had inspired me. But if I was ever going to compete with the writers I most respected, I knew I couldn't continue stealing from D and D, The Lord and the Rings, Narnia, Star Wars, and et cetera.

• 55:31David Senra?

  Games, I realized, had the potential to be much more than pleasant diversion. Done well, they could be as much an art form as books and movies. And so up until this point, computer games are relatively simple. You know, you have an objective. But he's like, well, think about the best novel you've ever read or the best movie you've ever seen. There's like moral choices made by the main characters. Like, they have to go through and like, there's some kind of trade off. And they have to make like a decision like what path they're going to take in life. He's like, why won't we do this for games? And this is going to lead to his most successful project ever. I thought, how cool would it be to incorporate a player's own value system into a game? If I could do that, instead of a player just mindlessly going around killing monsters, players could, would be forced to emotionally invest in the game.

• 56:15David Senra?

  Instead of pushing a button, they'd have to sit and make a moral choice. Now, why am I bringing this up to you? Because he has this idea. He loves it. Everybody around him was like, no, no, no, no. Do what's working. Don't do something new. And we saw this with Sid Meier. He was making, I think, what was it? Flight simulator games. They were selling crazy, making a ton of money. But he's like, man, I want to make like this big civilization game. And this epic game, it winds up being called Civilization. They're like, there's no money. And everybody around him was like, no, you don't do that. Stick with the very profitable flight simulators. There's no money in that path you're going to take. And that game Civilization that Sid makes, over the course of that series, they sell like 53 million copies. So it says, "When I told my brother and our team

• 56:58David Senra?

  I wanted to tell a story about the player's spiritual growth through their own actions, his response, the response was pretty much unanimous. Are you nuts? There's no profit in virtue. That's a terrible idea." When I pointed out that no one had done this before, I was reminded of the reason for that. Because that's not what people were buying. Throughout the development process, many people in the company continued to think I was nuts. So he's going to go ahead forward. Like, he's the main designer. He's like, I'm going to do this. So he's going, even as he, so before the idea, or as he has idea, don't do this, he's nuts. He continues the idea, you're still nuts. "The ultimate formula was proven and profitable, and many other people saw no reason to change it." And then he gets to his why. Like, why is he taking this big risk? Why is he doing this? "It was my attempt to further develop an emerging art form." And so he goes into way more detail in the book about all the fights they're having,

• 57:43David Senra?

  the decisions he's making, but this part just made me laugh because his brother's like, "No, I don't want to do this." His brother's handling the business aspect of their company. He's obviously developing the games, and this part just made me laugh. They're fighting about all this. He goes, "I had no choice but to stand firm. Forget it, I told my brother. My reaction forced him to take the ultimate extreme position. He told our parents." So I just love this idea. Like, I think they're what? They gotta be, at this point, mid to late twenties. It's like, "All right, we can't resolve this in the business? I'm telling mom and dad." That legitimately made me laugh. But later on, he was right to stick to his guns. And I just love this idea. It's like what Charlie Munger says, like, "You gotta follow your natural drift. It's a good idea. There's something inside of you that you may not even understand why you're drawn to

• 58:28David Senra?

  that." Or another way to think about that is like what Jeff Bezos says, he's like, "Listen, we don't choose our passions, they choose us. And there's some weird reason that you think you should be doing these things. And so follow it." So it says, "This is the game that they were fighting over. When Quest of the Avatar was published in 1985, it was very successful with sales surpassing all previous versions of Ultimas. It also had a lasting impact on the gaming world, commonly appearing on the list of the 10 most important video and computer games ever published." And so I really like that chapter because if you think about where the chapter started to where it ended up, it's like imitation precedes creation. Yes, I'm successful imitating and maybe having an influence, maybe just taking in a story that appears in a book and adapting it to a new format. And then eventually, like, I'm learning all these other things that were on the way,

• 59:12David Senra?

  and I'm understanding myself. He's getting older, you know, he's not a teenager anymore. And he's like, "All right, I'm just gonna combine all these experiences and then create something new, something that no one has ever done before." And he winds up creating one of the most valuable franchises ever. And so then he's gonna build on that success, and he's gonna create... He is widely... So it says, "I have been credited somewhat inaccurately with inventing the term and category known as..." There's an acronym here, I'm just gonna tell you what it means. Massively multiplayer online role-playing games. Because the next game, the next thing that I'm gonna work on is this thing called Ultima Online, which was the first to become a major success. So this is like the world that we live in now. Where you're playing the game, but you're also playing with millions and millions of people at the exact same time, all over the world.

• 59:55David Senra?

  And so the reason I want to bring this to your attention is because his point is like, yeah, they credit me for inventing the term and the category. I didn't invent it. I just was, it was the first, I took an idea that I found in the history of my industry, and then I added something new to it, and it winds up being the first massive success. And so because most people didn't take the time to study the history of the industry, they actually didn't know that I wasn't the first one to come up with this. And so what's the main, like, why is that important? Because we've seen this over and over again. Like, I can't think of one founder that you and I have studied that did not study the hell out of the industry that they're in. And they do that because you just never know when you can profit on that knowledge. So it says, "But in fact, long before the existence of the internet, people were linking computers to communicate with each other. They got together through dial-up services like the original American Online.

• 1:00:39David Senra?

  A decade before we produced Ultima Online, we were already dreaming of producing a game that allowed many people to play in the world at the same time and interact with each other. We were not the only people with that dream. Since the availability of computers, some people were producing text-based muds. And so mud, I don't remember hearing about this before. They were called multi-user dungeons. So text games, right? That are multiplayer text games. These multiplayer games were quite simple. Players could chat, they could write to each other. Anything that's on the screen would show on all the screens of all the players at the same time. But these games had user bases in the few hundreds or low thousands, and were not competitive with mainstream games. So that is really his innovation.

• 1:01:21David Senra?

  It's like, well, you were doing this for text-based, you already have this capability, I'm creating entire new worlds. They're visual worlds, they have this elaborate storytelling. Like, why not just apply that idea to what we're working on and make it so you're not just playing by yourself? You're not just playing if you happen to be networked with a person in the same room as you, it's like, no, you can play all over the world. "These games never really appealed to me, nor did they inspire me beyond seeing the potential." He's talking about text-based muds. "These games never really appealed to me, nor did they inspire me beyond seeing the potential they offered for something much more exciting. We watched this segment of the gaming industry very carefully for at least a decade." That's so important. He was studying the history of the industry, collecting information, and it took a decade before he was able to capitalize and profit on that. That's really cool.

• 1:02:05David Senra?

  We meet regularly with the companies making the best dial-up games to discuss producing a multiplayer Ultima. But with the fee structure that existed at the time, we couldn't figure out how to make a business out of it. So again, this is like the first time I got on the internet when I was like a young kid. I was probably like 12, I was on an IBM PC, and it was American Online, and you would pay. Like, you know, you called the internet. I tried to explain to my daughter about this. She's like, "What are you talking about?" I was like, "You had to call the internet." And like, no one could call your house phone when you're on it, so it'd bring, I think, busy at the time. It'd make the darn funny noises and stuff. But we were paid, like, you had to pay by the minute. It's insane. Like, think about how much everybody's online now. So it says, why he couldn't do this. He says, "These games were expensive to play. They required a subscription to a dial-up service, and the game itself generally would charge

• 1:02:50David Senra?

  as much as a few dollars an hour to play." "The availability of the internet, which allowed people to be online for certain periods of time without being charged by the minute or hour, completely changed the economic structure." So wait a minute. I didn't even write this note, but that's the same example we just had. Wait, just hold on. And future technology will unlock opportunities that you can't access yet. That's exactly what happened here. It's like, hey, I wanted to do this massive online player, multiplayer game. Couldn't do it when you're being charged a couple dollars an hour just to play the game and you have to buy the game. That doesn't make any sense, right? But now, technology keeps marching on. This new thing, the internet. You can use it as much as you want. Now this is possible. And this game, he's going to wind up having millions of subscribers on this game. So he says, "Suddenly, a million people could be online at the same time. Not just a million, 100 million people could be on at the same time.

• 1:03:35David Senra?

  The potential was almost incalculable." So he set out to create a game that would appeal not just to the few who played text-based muds, but the millions of people who were playing any type of computer game. Ultima Online proved that a huge market for multiplayer online games existed.

• 1:03:56David Senra?

  Okay, so I said at the very beginning, or he said at the very beginning, "You don't have to read this book in order." It also doesn't go in order. So this is gonna be weird because he just said, "This is where the idea came from. I'm gonna develop it, it's really successful." Then he goes back in time, and suddenly you realize, oh, he had sold his company. He's gonna develop Ultima Online when, after he sold his company to EA, to Electronic Arts. And he has a terrible experience selling to a larger company. And understanding that is so important. This is gonna go on for like 60 pages. The book is 300 pages. This is a gigantic part of the book. So let's go into what it was like after he sold his company and he's trying to develop this idea. And he's just tenacious as hell. Like, that is really a good way to think about Richard, and just a great trait to have.

• 1:04:38David Senra?

  The game was so different that initially EA had no interest in developing it. Solo games were selling, meaning games you just played along, were selling millions of copies, while rudimentary muds were selling a few thousand at most. My team and I explained to EA, for whom we were then working, that this new concept, massively multiplayer online gaming, was the wave of the future and they needed to be prepared to ride it. It's amazing that he knew that back then, because that's the reality we live in now, right? "No interest," they said. They pointed out that there was no data to support the belief that anyone would play an online game. And then he describes the difference between having a small, like entrepreneurial company. Now he's gotta be used to working with this, like, gigantic bureaucratic company. He doesn't really like that. EA had a very formal process that its developers had to go through before the company would even consider funding a game.

• 1:05:23David Senra?

  To make the case for funding, we had to get together a huge set of documents that demonstrated why it would be a success. The sales department would then do an analysis based upon the sales of similar games in the past. Now, that's obviously a big problem, because there was no. Like, the only, his past historical data is these text-based muds, right? Since no one had ever earned a penny selling the type of internet game we wanted to create, the sales projection was zero. EA would not budge. When I have an idea I believe in, I am tenacious. Six months later, we went back. For the second time, we were told no. Six months—now, I'm telling you all this because think about—this is gonna be one of the most successful games they ever make. And think about, like, he had to fight just to get them to do this. So it's six months later, we went back. For the second time, we were told no.

• 1:06:07David Senra?

  Six months after that, we went back again. I literally would not take no for an answer. This time, I went into the CEO's office and told him, "Look, we spend $5 million or more on any game that we develop. Just give me a quarter million dollars to prove to you that this is viable." He truly was not interested. But I would not leave the office until he agreed. Finally, he agreed to sign a note that I'd already written out that said, basically, "I hereby grant Richard a budget of 250 grand in pursuit of this Ultima thing that he wants to do." EA gave us minimal funding and no other support. To make matters worse, EA wouldn't give us proper office space. The building that we were in were being refurbished, and every other team was given new spaces it was completed. My team was literally put out in the hallway.

• 1:06:50David Senra?

  We were working in the middle of a construction site. So he actually gets it done with this very limited budget, like this prototype. And then check that—this is a very unique marketing ploy that he used to launch Ultima Online. For the $250,000, we managed to build a nice little prototype. When we put up one of EA's— We then put up one of EA's first websites to introduce the game. Basically, we introduced ourselves. "Hello, we're the Ultima team. We spent $250,000 making a prototype for a new game, and we need people, a lot of people, to help us test it. We can't download it to you," we wrote, "because it's too big. We need to send you the game on a CD, which is gonna be expensive for us to manufacture and mail. So if you wanna volunteer to be a beta tester and help us develop this game, please send us $5."

• 1:07:35David Senra?

  This was a marketing strategy no one had tried before, asking people to pay for the privilege of volunteering. We didn't know what kind of response to expect. The EA marketing team had projected lifetime sales of Ultima Online at about 30,000 units, which they thought was wildly optimistic. We put it on the internet and we held our breath. Within a week or so, 50,000 people had signed up to pay $5 for the disc. Ultima Online instantly became the most important thing happening in the EA world. We got all the money and the development people we needed. EA now decided we needed considerably more management oversight. This is also going to be a mistake. Having money made the situation much better. The managers made it much worse. In the past, once we shipped a game, it was done.

• 1:08:20David Senra?

  So he's now talking about, I slipped ahead a little bit, sorry. He's talking about like the fact that there is, no one's ever had an experience on working on a game that is never finished. So it says, "In the past, once we shipped a game, it was done. It was out. It was time to focus on what's next." This was completely different. We were going to be running a live service. There was no one in our group with any level of experience. We didn't even think about this when we were working. We were too busy just running around. So there's a great line in Mark Andreessen's blog post, blog archive I did back on Founder's 50, when he's like, "You know you have product-market fit because the market will pull the product out of you." And when that happens, it's just this huge rush and there's just, you don't have enough time or resources. You can't keep up with demand. Very similar to what's happening here. We were wildly more successful than we ever imagined.

• 1:09:05David Senra?

  We had designed servers that would allow for thousands of people to be connected simultaneously. But we were completely unprepared for the game's success. Suddenly, we had millions of subscribers and our servers could not handle it. Not only could he not predict the level of success that he was going to have, he didn't predict what millions of people interacting with your product was going to be like. And so this is where he actually accidentally creates a real-world economy from a virtual world. And this is going to be relevant to the day and age we live in because this is happening, what, 25 years ago, maybe? One thing's for sure, people are very, very willing to spend real money on all types of virtual items. And he sees that here. No one anticipated that the game might enable students to work their way through college

• 1:09:50David Senra?

  or allow criminals and drug cartels to launder money or lead to the creation of Chinese gold farming businesses. We had no idea. We were creating a real money economy that would generate billions of dollars in revenue and would obscure the lines between virtual world and reality. We just thought we were making a game. And so I'll give you like a summary of what's happening here. Players could earn virtual gold in a variety of ways and use what they earned to purchase everything from virtual meals to a virtual house. People began to covet these virtual items, like property and magic swords, but were not willing to put in the time to earn the virtual gold needed to buy them. Instead of spending months playing the game to earn the virtual objects they wanted,

• 1:10:32David Senra?

  players began making side deals, often through places like eBay, buying virtual assets for real US dollars. He did not expect this to happen. So those people who were willing or able to put in the time necessary to obtain these items discovered that they could sell them in the real world for real money. I remember the first time I found an object from our game was being sold on eBay. A rare and magical sword was for sale for $100 and we were flabbergasted. The obvious question asks, why would anyone pay real money for nothing? Remember, these are conversations that are happening in present day. You know, history doesn't repeat, human nature does. That's why I'm reading this section to you. But for some people, it actually makes a lot of economic sense. A player could spend two weeks in the game collecting treasure before they had enough

• 1:11:14David Senra?

  gold to purchase a big sword, or they could pay someone to do it for them. Then he also sees another analogy in the virtual world, very similar to what takes place in the physical world. Real estate starts to becoming incredibly valuable. In the real world, you might be able to buy a small piece of land in a New Mexico hill country for a dollar, but a piece of land that exact same size in New York City would sell for many millions of dollars. The same thing is true in virtual worlds. And so the value of property near the entrance to the cities rapidly escalated. Within months of the game going online, a piece of virtual property sold for more than $10,000. So even though he's having a lot of success with his ultimate game series, he hates working

• 1:11:56David Senra?

  at EA and we're going to see him get kicked out of and fired from his own company. Before I get there, though, this is just a fantastic line. And he says, "The art of business, which I had to learn, was how to stay in business long enough to give yourself the best chance to get a big hit." So now he gets into why he sold his company and what the result was. So again, it's not in chronological order. Says the experience had come at a substantial personal cost, even while it made me a fortune. Origin had long been among the top publishers in the industry. But as the industry matured, it began consolidating. The biggest players acquired many, many, many smaller companies and then became much, much, much bigger. To survive, we had to make a very tough decision.

• 1:12:39David Senra?

  Even today, people ask me why in the world we did this? And all I can tell them is that in order to compete, we just had to get bigger. We either had to gang up with several other small companies to become a single larger entity, or we had to sell Origin to someone else. Ultimately, it became obvious that we were not going to be able to engineer a merger of small companies and that EA was the right fit for us. So in 1992, we sold Origin to EA for $25 million. They immediately provided the resources we needed to double in size. This was a huge strategic mistake. We couldn't manage the type of rapid expansion and we wasted a lot of their money. The first thing we did was to split our team in half, which meant that some teams had second-tier leadership.

• 1:13:24David Senra?

  So essentially, the reason I'm going to bring this to your attention is because he's talking about like all the mistakes he made. And it's very likely if you and I were put in the same position, we are prone. Like Rich is obviously very smart. These are smart, driven entrepreneurs, very gifted at what they're doing. And as we've seen time and time again in these books, like they make the same, they make insane mistakes. Like, smart people make mistakes all the time. And so realizing, hey, if I was in that situation at that time, I might act the same way. And so the really benefit of downloading all these experiences to your brain is realizing it's going to be very difficult. If all these other smart, driven people are making the mistake, like, what hope do I have? Like, it's very likely that if I was exposed to the same decision, like, choices, I'd do the same thing. That's why it's so difficult to avoid the mistakes. But if you see this play out over and over again, like, hey, wait a minute, I need to

• 1:14:07David Senra?

  really pause and make sure I'm not going down the same route that I've already seen multiple other smart and productive people, you know, do and then regret later on. And so part of this is like, you go from having one great team to now two okay teams. The first thing we did was split our teams in half, which meant that some teams had second-tier leadership. We brought a brand-new building that was twice as large as our existing space. Then we doubled the size of our staff. And then they're also working on a bunch of games at once. Two years later, we realized about half of the games that we have in development were not going to be successful, and EA told us to abandon them. For us, this was a new and very different way of doing business. We had never canceled a single game. But now, we were playing by EA's rules. And so he goes into the fact that he just hated the way EA was building games,

• 1:14:52David Senra?

  and he no longer had control. At EA, there were large teams assigned to each project. So when a game was canceled, we had to fire people. Once, when we announced that we had to cancel a game in development, the project manager laid down on the floor while another manager outlined his body in masking tape, as if it were a crime scene. And this is the punchline, the most important sentence of this entire section. "We felt this was symbolic of the death of the entrepreneurial company that we had built. They also make them rush and compromise quality. We released games when we were done with them. That was not the way EA did business. Richard, they told me, your release of games is incredibly unreliable. They wanted us to change your development process to meet their deadlines.

• 1:15:34David Senra?

  Ultima 8, EA wanted on the shelves in time for the following Christmas. And they told me, Richard, you need to cut whatever needs to be cut to get this game done. So I cut it. I cut it, and I cut it, and I cut it. And as a result, I shipped the most incomplete, dumb, buggy game that I've ever shipped. The creative joy that we had once shared in developing a game had been replaced by the prosaic demands of running a business. It was hard to believe how much it changed. Only a few years earlier, our people would happily work all night and love every minute of it. And now, we had become a sweatshop. And so you're starting games, you're not finishing a bunch,

• 1:16:19David Senra?

  you're firing them, there's all these turnovers. You had like this small band of this incredibly gifted team working together. Most of these people are churned out. Then you have all these different people in charge. And so it says, "EA kept sending a second-string replacement managers, who would immediately start by undoing all the things that his predecessor, also sent by EA by the way, had tried to put in place, replacing them with his own initiatives." The manager then would start their own new projects and fire all the junior people who weren't on their team, and then bring in other junior people. None of them stayed in place long enough to see their new projects through. So every year, the entire culture changed.

• 1:17:00David Senra?

  And because he came up with control, he has no influence. He's trying to convince them, hey, we should go back to the way things were, we were doing them before. And EA said, no, none of my suggestions were accepted. Then one afternoon, a general manager of EA called me into his office and said, Richard, we just don't need you anymore. I left the office, drove to a grocery store parking lot and wept for several hours. It was the end of my personal Camelot. This was no game. This was my life. It had been painful for me to fire other people, but as I had just learned, that was nothing compared to being fired. I got blindsided by a deep and complex range of feelings. I felt like a failure.

• 1:17:43David Senra?

  I was angry and depressed and confused. It was a hurt that lasted a long time. And frankly, I don't think I ever fully got over it.

• 1:17:57David Senra?

  And that is where I'll leave it. For the full story, get the book. There's a lot more that goes on. He winds up founding two or three more video game companies. He winds up going to space. There's all kinds of exploration of Antarctica, the Amazon, the bottom of the ocean. This book is, was really, really wild. And if you buy the book using the link that's in the show notes to your podcast player, you'll be supporting the podcast at the same time. That is 257 books down, one dozen to go. And I'll talk to you again soon.