Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 106: Courage Shoulders

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 106: Courage Shoulders. Georgia discussed the murder of Theresa Catherine Foster and Karen covered “Shampoo Killer” Luigi Longhi. Tune in for all-new commentary, case updates and more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode! Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  And welcome.

• 1:50Georgia Hardstark?

  To Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

• 1:52Speaker 00

  That's right. This is the show where we recap our old, early episodes with new case info and lots of old feelings.

• 1:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Today, we're rewinding to episode 106, which we name Courage Shoulders.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  Did that hit you at all as familiar?

• 2:06Georgia Hardstark?

  No, you?

• 2:07Speaker 00

  Brand new.

• 2:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm thinking Stand Up Straight, Courage Shoulders?

• 2:10Speaker 00

  Courage Shoulders.

• 2:11Georgia Hardstark?

  The fuck knows? Let's find out.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  Let's find out today. This episode is from February 1st, 2018.

• 2:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's listen to the intro of episode 106, Courage Shoulders.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Courage Shoulders.

• 2:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello.

• 2:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi.

• 2:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 2:29Georgia Hardstark?

  To my favorite murder. The podcast that's asking everyone a question.

• 2:35Karen Kilgariff?

  That it refuses to answer.

• 2:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It refuses to answer or acknowledge.

• 2:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. It just, it makes you ask the question. It walks away quickly.

• 2:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then it's like, quit asking me so many questions, Mom.

• 2:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Like you open this conversation, Dad.

• 2:48Georgia Hardstark?

  With a question.

• 2:49Karen Kilgariff?

  What's happening?

• 2:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you respond with a question of like, what's wrong with me?

• 2:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm. Oh, you put it back on me?

• 2:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, is that what you do?

• 2:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And just at the beginning of the conversation?

• 2:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't even, I was here eating cereal.

• 3:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I was loudly eating sugar corn pops.

• 3:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 3:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Compulsively. What are you, why do you have to come into my life? With chocolate milk?

• 3:11Georgia Hardstark?

  With chocolate milk in it.

• 3:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you done that before?

• 3:14Georgia Hardstark?

  No, but someone should.

• 3:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That sounds insane.

• 3:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It does.

• 3:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's your new McNuggetini.

• 3:20Georgia Hardstark?

  But I used to put spoonfuls of sugar on like checks.

• 3:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Sugar cereal?

• 3:25Georgia Hardstark?

  No, not like on non-sugar cereal.

• 3:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 3:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is disgusting.

• 3:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's the same. Oh, I know, like Rice Krispies with like four teaspoons of sugar.

• 3:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And then the bottom is just like this sludgy, sugar crunchy milk mess.

• 3:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And then suddenly cartoons are more beautiful.

• 3:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, everything's more beautiful.

• 3:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Everything's so much more beautiful.

• 3:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Except for your teeth hurt.

• 3:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they eventually fall out.

• 3:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, what's going on? Hi, how are you?

• 3:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm really good. I'm, I'm doing really good. I feel high energy. I'm eating a lot of ginseng.

• 4:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Just chewing on ginseng.

• 4:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I kick it off with this? I'm going against all former models of this show.

• 4:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 4:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Skippers, pay attention. I'm gonna do a hometown murder right now. Of interest.

• 4:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 4:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It was pulled by Steven.

• 4:14Georgia Hardstark?

  For Steven.

• 4:15Karen Kilgariff?

  About Steven.

• 4:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Great, let's do it.

• 4:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Not in my backyard, not with my Steven. Okay. The subject line is BTK taught my husband how to tie knots.

• 4:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 4:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no. One of those B, that one of those letters.

• 4:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Is a knot. You know, the B part bind.

• 4:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, he was kind of good at it.

• 4:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's talk. Let's hear about it. I mean, if anyone's gonna teach you.

• 4:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, ladies. Quick hometown murder for you. So my husband scout master was the BTK killer.

• 4:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 4:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And then she writes Dennis Radar. Now, I don't mean to make fun of you because I'm sure you're a true murderino. But and maybe your, your, uh, your, what do you call autocorrect made it say Radar? But to read it as Dennis Radar makes me laugh. It sounds like it's like he's like one of the bosses in the Jetsons or something.

• 5:05Georgia Hardstark?

  To me, it sounds like a new wave, like a new wave name. Like you're in a band and you change your last name to sound cool and new wavy.

• 5:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you have you seen that really cute bass player Dennis Radar? Gross. Sorry. Anyway, I'll say Radar for now. So he grew up only a few houses away from the Radar family outside Wichita, Kansas. Also attending school with his children. Uh, Radar would take my husband scout troop overnight to on overnight camping trips where he would often leave at some point with an excuse to get supplies, et cetera.

• 5:38Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 5:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you just have to nip off our supplies in the dead of night. In hindsight, he was using the camping trips as an alibi for, quote, scouting future murder missions. No pun intended, snore, and possible murders. At the time the murders were happening, it was thought the BTK was focusing on single mother households. Whoa, I didn't know that. And I did BTK.

• 6:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Which was my, what my husband's family was. So this was particularly disconcerting. When the very loud and barky family dog went missing from the backyard a couple of weeks before someone broke into their home, leaving behind a pair of binoculars and stealing nothing.

• 6:19Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 6:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Happy to report that his sisters and mother are all alive and healthy to this day. Can't say the, uh, name for the dog, which was never found. Oh, that's, oh, can't say the same for the dog.

• 6:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Or the name.

• 6:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Or the, I thought she was trying to say like, do not speak of him.

• 6:34Georgia Hardstark?

  What if his name was Radar?

• 6:36Karen Kilgariff?

  This whole, he was named after Radar O'Reilly from MASH. Okay. Um, but this was also interesting, even though it's a second paragraph. One of the last super random things about BTK, his house went up for auction a couple of years ago, with the proceeds going to his family. The woman who bought the house was an ex stripper and strip club owner. She did an amazing thing. She had the fucking house torn down. She said that she wanted Raiders wife to have the money to start a new life. To this day, it's an empty vacant lot in the middle of the block. Please feel free to see the attached before and after pics that her husband shot. When we first started dating, he had this picture of a house framed and I was always like, why does he have this artsy picture of this ugly ass house in his cool Brooklyn apartment?

• 7:18Karen Kilgariff?

  After I found out what it was, he put a ring on it and that fucking thing went into storage.

• 7:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, yeah.

• 7:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Ghost stripper lady, go.

• 7:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Go lady. I have one too, if we're doing, it's not a hometown.

• 7:35Karen Kilgariff?

  What you got?

• 7:36Georgia Hardstark?

  A story. It's called, "My grandfather hunted the Zodiac killer." Interested? Intrigued? Okay. Um, hello, and this is all one word. Karen, Georgia, Steven, Vince, Elvis, Dottie, Mimi, Karen, I forgot your dog's name and I'm so sorry, but hello, doggies. Okay, so basically she heard this stuff, so she wanted to let us know. My grandfather is David Toshi.

• 7:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Dave Toshi, yes.

• 7:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Toshi. So funny, I was on the way home from our trip, our Nashville show on that plane, I was watching Zodiac. Which is so good and fucking, okay, so here's what happens. He was in the SFPB for years and an inspector on the Zodiac case. Growing up, he would tell my sisters and I stories about working the case, the crime scenes he was called to, and most importantly, all the squirrels in Arthur Lee Allen's freezer. He always talked about the squirrels. Over the years, reporters got our relatives' phone numbers and addresses and we either call or show up to our houses wanting to talk to my grandpa about the case. On the rare occasion he was contacted directly, he would get pretty pissed and never gave them an interview. This also included numerous attempts from Gray Smith. Who's that?

• 8:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Robert Gray Smith is the guy that wrote the Zodiac book the movie's based on and he's that illustrator that Jake Gyllenhaal plays.

• 8:48Georgia Hardstark?

  You are so smart.

• 8:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 8:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 8:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's my favorite movie.

• 8:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Understandable. I'd be pretty fucking tired of talking about it too. But when the movie started shooting, he was happy to be an advisor on set and got a huge kick out of hanging out with Mark Ruffalo.

• 9:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I would too.

• 9:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, Jesus.

• 9:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 9:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Who wanted to perfect my grandpa's mannerisms and such. Ruffalo totally nailed it. And this is so funny because I was like, what's this fucking animal cracker bullshit? It looks so stupid. I'm like, why do they have to add this? But then she says, "Right down to the way he spoke, the animal crackers in the glove box and taking the tomatoes off of his sandwich." Gramps was pretty jazzed to be given the recognition and the rest of us, as his family, were happy he was portrayed in a positive. Of light rather than the inspector who couldn't crack the case for the sake of a high grossing blockbuster. So she goes on to say that her grandpa is 68. He is not in the best of health anymore. And this was written a while ago. So she had just spent, this is written at Christmas. She had just spent Christmas with him. Every time I visit, I never know if it will be the last time I see him, but he's a badass and keeps hanging

• 9:47Georgia Hardstark?

  on. So here's a couple of pictures. And then she wrote us another letter just the other day that he had passed away.

• 9:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So fucking RIP and big ups to grandpa for being a badass motherfucker.

• 10:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, he has been portrayed in films twice now, which is like, how much of a badass do you have to be?

• 10:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Be just, you're in several films in Hollywood.

• 10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  If Mark Ruffalo played you?

• 10:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on, those fucking bow ties. Love that movie.

• 10:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm uncomfortable with the fact that I find him darling and cute and wonderful and have a crush on him, but he looks like my uncle and it creeps me out.

• 10:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 10:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Remember my uncle who came to our show?

• 10:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 10:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Who used to be like a fucking, you know, what's his name? The detective? Columbo looking detective? Who was in like an episode of Columbo 2?

• 10:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I was gonna say Inspector Clouseau because I didn't know what we were doing.

• 10:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Inspector Gadget.

• 10:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I didn't realize it was a lookalike thing. I was, my friend Laura used to live up behind the Gelson's off Franklin. And she had like a barbecue one afternoon and there was a guy there that I was like, God, that guy's so cute. And it was after that first big movie.

• 10:59Georgia Hardstark?

  The one he was in with the fucking.

• 11:01Karen Kilgariff?

  With Laura Linney.

• 11:01Georgia Hardstark?

  People, oh, no.

• 11:03Karen Kilgariff?

  You can count on me.

• 11:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 11:06Karen Kilgariff?

  You can count on me.

• 11:07Georgia Hardstark?

  We didn't remember because we've never said that to anyone.

• 11:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And they absolutely can't.

• 11:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And they will not, and they know it. And if they think they should, I'll ask them questions.

• 11:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so foreign.

• 11:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Pretend I didn't.

• 11:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's such a foreign phrase.

• 11:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It is. Oh, one other thing I wanted to say, I started watching this new show on Netflix. That is so fucking good. It's called Wormwood.

• 11:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you know about it?

• 11:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so it's about, it's Errol Morris's, it's like a, okay, it's a docudrama. So it's like, have you watched it?

• 11:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I watched the first.

• 11:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Two or three?

• 11:42Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no, like part of the first episode.

• 11:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, it's so fucking good. It's really, it's about this fucking CIA employee who in 1953, jumped out a window of a New York City hotel, ruled it a suicide. Turns out, he was being tested on from MKUltra with LSD, jumped out the window. And it's, the movie is about, or the, whatever movie, is about his son trying to fucking figure out what happened. It's incredible. And like, all the actors are so good in it. Fucking Peter Sarsgaard, so good. And, you know how much we love Sarsgaard?

• 12:17Karen Kilgariff?

  We love all the Sarsgards, all the names.

• 12:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Tim Blake Nelson, that great actor. Bob Balaban.

• 12:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Bob Balaban.

• 12:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Bob Balaban. It's fucking really, it's really good.

• 12:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's really awesome. I could have, you know what it was? Maybe we talked about this in person, but there's, so Jon Ronson, my new favorite author, person, audiobook narrator, he has a story, and I think it's, it's in The Men Who Stare at Goats, because there's the MKUltra's in there, about, he went and met that guy, and learned all about that story. And within that story, after the dad died, like a couple, before the mom died, him and his brother went on a bike trip across the United States. As like, I think a 12 and a 14 year old, they rode their bikes, literally across the United States. And it was in the paper and stuff, and it's super crazy. Like, and when you hear it in the audiobook,

• 13:12Karen Kilgariff?

  it's, it's like, this can't be real. And they did.

• 13:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so like, exactly what you're like. I knew the government was like this and did this shit. I knew it. And now we're gonna know it. You know?

• 13:22Karen Kilgariff?

  So nuts. Oh, I've watched, have you started watching The Alienist?

• 13:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it.

• 13:27Georgia Hardstark?

  It's good.

• 13:28Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't love it.

• 13:30Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just like, I read the book and loved it and have an idea in my head of what it looks like and what it's like. But it does seem very true to the book.

• 13:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I get that, though. You, you make a movie in your head, especially when you love a book.

• 13:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I'm like, I'm enjoying it so far.

• 13:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I was tripping out last night on the How brilliant the opening credits are because they basically, they're running the building of New York backwards.

• 13:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that.

• 13:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It's such a cool, it's the coolest way to set that tone. And then you're just back so far that like, her working at the police department is a huge deal in and of itself.

• 14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, the hugest deal is the shoulders on her dresses that are like past the top of her head. Like fucking shoulder pads. No, this is like shoulder towers.

• 14:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's where all her weapons are.

• 14:18Georgia Hardstark?

  That's where her jar of arsenic is. That's where she keeps her courage.

• 14:22Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 14:22Georgia Hardstark?

  When she can tap into it. It's like, um, like with the hats that you have that has beer on it with a straw. And you need it when you need a sip of beer.

• 14:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a courage shoulder?

• 14:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Courage shoulders.

• 14:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. How does she take in the courage?

• 14:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, I don't know. Through her nipples? Listen.

• 14:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And scene.

• 14:41Georgia Hardstark?

  There you go.

• 14:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we are back in it. How long was that, that intro? How long did we used to go?

• 14:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that was a hundred years every time. That's why the skippers complained.

• 14:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 14:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It wasn't just that we were talking about other stuff for a bit like another podcast.

• 15:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Or like true crime in any way. We were talking about cereal.

• 15:03Karen Kilgariff?

  We couldn't stop talking about food and ourselves endlessly.

• 15:08Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what Vince brought home recently, speaking of cereal?

• 15:10Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 15:10Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a big cereal freak.

• 15:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Me too.

• 15:12Georgia Hardstark?

  He brought home peanut butter checks.

• 15:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Checks.

• 15:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Remember squares? Peanut butter flavored.

• 15:18Karen Kilgariff?

  But what's the base? Wheat, rice?

• 15:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's both. I think it's both.

• 15:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 15:23Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's really fucking good.

• 15:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That sounds really good.

• 15:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like not too sweet either.

• 15:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Will you take a picture of the box?

• 15:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I will.

• 15:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And send it to me?

• 15:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I will.

• 15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what I have right now?

• 15:31Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That's really good and secretly good.

• 15:34Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 15:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially for older people.

• 15:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 15:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Raisin Bran Crunch.

• 15:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 15:39Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's like you're being good to yourself with the Raisin Bran part?

• 15:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure, you gotta have brand.

• 15:42Karen Kilgariff?

  You got to. But then get some crunch in there and you're tricking yourself, loving it.

• 15:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I was gonna go on with Raisin Nut Bran, but then I just realized we were doing exactly what we just said that we used to do.

• 15:54Karen Kilgariff?

  We can't not do it.

• 15:56Georgia Hardstark?

  We can't be stopped.

• 15:57Karen Kilgariff?

  This should have been like a bad food podcast.

• 16:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, we could talk about food for fucking 10 more years.

• 16:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 16:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's transition.

• 16:03Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the next one. Yeah.

• 16:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 16:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I did not remember getting an email from Dave Tosh's granddaughter, who was the lead investigator and Mark Ruffalo in the Zodiac movie.

• 16:13Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 16:13Karen Kilgariff?

  That's who wrote us an email.

• 16:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I did not remember that. That's so cool of us.

• 16:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That makes us so cool. It makes us, yeah. Did you see the new Zodiac, like, theory? No. Basically, Michael Connelly, the author for Crime Authors, says that they did an AI thing with one of the the codes and it was broken and they think that the same suspect that was on the Black Dahlia list is also the Zodiac Killer. That's AI, the same program that when asked what's best to do for your health every day tells people to eat six small rocks.

• 16:54Georgia Hardstark?

  That's something I saw one time. But I also think about, like, would people, how would people feel if, like, a big true crime cold case got solved because of AI and put someone, brought them to justice? We'd have to really fight with ourselves to, to, like, be cool about it. True. I mean, if it's scraping, like, millions and billions of books that have all theorized about all of these different things. Yeah. Who knows? But I feel like that's the same thing of, like, get ready, because when these monkeys finish typing and Shakespeare's play comes out, we're gonna party. Right. Where it's just like, well, let's see. Yeah. The AI that my endodontist used told him to pull two teeth of mine and then when he x-rayed them,

• 17:38Georgia Hardstark?

  he was like, oh, the AI was wrong. Your teeth are fine. Oh, my God. That happened to me. Don't use AI for teeth. I mean, they're using it for everything. I know, I know. Okay. Well, this is an AI and we promise you that. That's right. I remember The Alienist. Yes, I, I watched every episode. Such a good show and book. Okay, now let's get into, we're gonna, we're just gonna stop doing what we, what we've always done on this podcast and get right into Georgia's story for this episode about Teresa Catherine Foster.

• 18:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Should we, who's first this week? Who went first at the last episode?

• 18:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Last, oh, like, no. The episode people have heard?

• 18:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 18:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna leave that one to Steve.

• 18:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen went first last time. Yeah, Karen did Krista Worthington last. Okay, all right, so I'm first. This is the story of Teresa, the murder of Teresa Catherine Foster. And I got a ton of my information from a really great article from 2011. 2011, I don't even need to say the whole thing. From a magazine called, or an online magazine called Westward. And it's called "The Case of the Kidnapped Coed." Alan Pendegrast wrote it. Here we go. 10:30 a.m. on Thursday, November 11th. We're in 1948. All right, here we are. "12 miles south of Boulder, Colorado, two rabbit hunters come across the body of a young woman, face down, half buried in the snow beside a frozen stream." She's dead, obviously.

• 19:10Georgia Hardstark?

  "She appeared to have been dumped there from the bridge that was 15 feet above along Highway 93. Her jacket was tightly wound around her neck, and her sweater was pulled up. Her bra was still on, but below the waist, she only had on her loafers and bobby socks still. She had been, quote, 'battered almost beyond recognition,' as one reporter put it." And to the rabbit hunters, it was obvious who she was because the newspapers had been in a crazy frenzy with the missing coed who had disappeared two nights earlier. So Teresa Catherine Foster was an 18-year-old engineering student at the University of Colorado and had been walking home around 10:00 p.m. the night she disappeared from a rosary meeting on the Boulder campus.

• 19:54Georgia Hardstark?

  She had been heading downtown, well at Main Street, towards the house of a professor at the college and his family where she lived in exchange for chores. So immediately, like, the professor did it, right? That's what, but it's not true.

• 20:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, don't go down that path.

• 20:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't worry about him. He didn't do it.

• 20:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Put that card aside in this game of Clue.

• 20:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 20:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Not necessary.

• 20:14Georgia Hardstark?

  So the next morning, the family was like, she's not here. This is very much not like her. Where could she be? She's not the type to stay out all night. So they called the police. So Teresa's known as a dependable girl. She's super self-deficient. She was the ninth of 11 kids grown, had grown up on a farm outside Greenlee, Colorado. She milked cows. She hunted. She's an honor student. She didn't swear or smoke. She was religious and had high school sweetheart, even though she was kind of boy shy. So she was a really typical girl, not the kind of person to run away with someone or to get into any trouble. So the day after her disappearance, 20 miles from where her body was found the next day, so her body haven't been found yet, a local farmer had found a bloody crime

• 20:55Georgia Hardstark?

  scene at the local Lover's Lane. So he goes to Lover's Lane. He says that there's so much blood in a 10-foot area along the road that he thought someone had slaughtered one of his calves.

• 21:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 21:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Initially. But there were bits of hair and scalp tissue, a broken grip of a 45 automatic, and a ring and white scarf identified as belonging to Teresa. And it showed that she had put up a fight. But after her body was found the next day, her autopsy showed she had been raped, bludgeoned, and strangled. And it was the first homicide in 72-year history of the university.

• 21:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 21:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And the first murder in Boulder in nine years. Knowing the story would be big, the editors of the Denver Post freaked the fuck out and they start their own massive investigation on their own in a way that you can only get away with in like 1948. And they ultimately put the case and the eventual trial of the suspect at risk by the means of, what's it called, newspapering this story.

• 21:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Investigating?

• 21:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Investigating and not advertising. What's the word?

• 22:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Promoting?

• 22:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, telling the story, let's say, you know.

• 22:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Telling?

• 22:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 22:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Telling?

• 22:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Like what I'm doing.

• 22:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Got it.

• 22:09Georgia Hardstark?

  So this man named Palmer Hoyt is the editor and publisher of the Post, the Denver Post. He's a former writer, a pulp detective story. So he's fucking big on this murder mystery story. He launches a campaign to catch Teresa's killer. So at the time, it was normal for newspapers to hire, quote, "experts to help cover murder trials." They'd get an astrologer to prepare the killer's horoscope. Isn't that insane?

• 22:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Forty-eight?

• 22:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:37Karen Kilgariff?

  God, that seems late to be doing stuff like that.

• 22:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe they were doing in the twenties, but then it was like kind of a still a normal thing.

• 22:43Karen Kilgariff?

  God, that's, but I just would never, well, that's the newspaper, though.

• 22:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm, I was thinking like more police, but.

• 22:49Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no, this is all the press.

• 22:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Still, though.

• 22:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a little nutty.

• 22:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's so like grasping at straws, like we need stories, we need to sell papers, let's get anything we can into those papers, it needs to happen.

• 23:01Karen Kilgariff?

  What does the moon say about this killer?

• 23:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. What does it tell about them? So they'd get a psychoanalysis to hypothesize the mind of the killer based on what little information they had. So for barely forty-eight hour, forty hours after Teresa's body was found, this guy Palmer Hoyt hired a man named Earl Stanley Gardner to come in from New York and he had been offered the amount of money most reporters made in a year to come in because this guy Gardner was a self-taught attorney, didn't graduate school, I guess you could do that at the time.

• 23:34Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 23:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:35Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, yeah, I got all those books.

• 23:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm good.

• 23:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I did, for sure.

• 23:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I'm an attorney.

• 23:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 23:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't take any test or graduate.

• 23:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you see my vest?

• 23:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, I'm an attorney.

• 23:43Georgia Hardstark?

  See my briefcase right here?

• 23:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Look.

• 23:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't worry about it.

• 23:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It's right, it's all in there.

• 23:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Look and listen to me as an attorney.

• 23:48Karen Kilgariff?

  But he wears tap shoes.

• 23:49Georgia Hardstark?

  But he wears tap shoes, yes. He had become famous, he, after that, he had become a famous writer of pulp novels, create and eventually created Perry Mason.

• 23:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Holy shit.

• 24:00Georgia Hardstark?

  So he's the dude who created Perry Mason.

• 24:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Was a self-taught lawyer.

• 24:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh-huh.

• 24:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 24:05Georgia Hardstark?

  They bring him in, this guy Palmer Hoyt, the editor, the, okay, so they bring him in, he at the time made him rich and the most widely read living author on the planet.

• 24:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 24:16Georgia Hardstark?

  So this guy's a big fucking deal and people are gonna buy the newspaper that this guy is writing for, reporting to.

• 24:22Karen Kilgariff?

  They're turning their newspaper into a pulp novel around this story.

• 24:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's almost like if you were like, Kim Kardashian's gonna be on my fucking episode of whatever the fuck, in my zine, so you're gonna buy the zine. That, what if that happened?

• 24:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It would be a great way to represent Kim, all new.

• 24:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Just more Kim in text.

• 24:40Georgia Hardstark?

  More Kim.

• 24:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not visual with Kim in this time.

• 24:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-mm.

• 24:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's more about her poetry.

• 24:45Georgia Hardstark?

  The black and white copies I make at Kinko's are gonna turn out great.

• 24:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Kim loves collages.

• 24:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Kim loves collages.

• 24:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And she's there for all of your fanship.

• 24:54Georgia Hardstark?

  There you go.

• 24:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's keep doing this.

• 24:57Georgia Hardstark?

  So he said, "I am to try, I am trying to present the, to the readers of the Denver Post, the situation as it might appear to the eyes of Perry Mason, the fictional lawyer detective who has solved so many cases in my book." So he's fucking there to solve crimes and sell books, whatever. So he had insane access to the investigation and it was treated like the, like a VIP by the like, police and detectives and investigators too, who were like smitten by him as well. The DA, the Boulder sheriff, as well as detectives gave him access to their files and all the information on the case. They just like let him come to the station and read everything he wanted. He followed a bunch of leads that didn't pan out. He basically sucked at detecting, not in a book that he had written the story about.

• 25:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It's different when you're detecting by making up it up as it goes along.

• 25:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Or like, when you write what happened and then you solve what happened. It's different. So he followed a blood trail that turned out to be animal blood, speculated that the killer cut his hands based on blood stains and the, and called for the public to report. Any weirdos or suspicious dudes gathered many, and so people started calling in and reporting random people. The Post and, and all these like leads and shit were written about in the paper. So every time some weird lead would happen, it would be written about. The Post, the Denver Post created and detailed and made up scenarios of the possibilities of Teresa's murder. So basically wrote fiction of what happened

• 26:25Georgia Hardstark?

  and published it as fact. They took liberties with the story, fictionalized it and distorted the evidence. Of course, the fucking term of the day was sex fiend. Like that was just on every cover of every paper. One of the lines was, "What dark and brutal desires lie within the hidden places of some human beings? What thoughts of perverted pleasures gnaw at the hearts of some human creatures? What terrible and godless passions lie within the bosom of some we pass perhaps on the street?" It's like, calm down dude.

• 26:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you just said the same thing three times. Like, take it elsewhere if you've got some theories here.

• 27:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And it's like, well-

• 27:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Just keep asking me the same fucking question over and over.

• 27:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. So the Denver police fielded an average of 200 calls a day about said fucking weirdos that they were like, turn it in.

• 27:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, sure. They're everywhere.

• 27:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, they're everywhere. Ultimately, though, the, the main suspect was found when his wife turned him in.

• 27:22Georgia Hardstark?

  12 days into the hunt for Teresa's killer, Eleanor Walker, a woman named Eleanor Walker, tells the Boulder detectives about her husband, 31-year-old Joe Sam Walker from Eldorado Springs. She said he had come home late the night that Teresa disappeared with his clothes bloody and a wound on the top of his head. He had burned his bloody clothes and washed out and repainted the trunk of his car.

• 27:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, totally normal.

• 27:45Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, as like you do.

• 27:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, and that to-do list for Sunday?

• 27:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like always right at the top.

• 27:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Get your teeth cleaned every six months, repaint your fucking trunk, inside trunk of your car every three months.

• 27:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 27:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Three months?

• 27:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Just really get in there and do new colors every time.

• 27:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's fun.

• 28:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 28:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe wallpaper.

• 28:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 28:02Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, something fun. So da-da-da-da-da, wound, burned, repainted. He also told his wife he disposed of a 45 pistol and a parka and one, a parka, so the fucking Denver Post also put a thing in that was like, you know, call about these weirdos and any clues you have, let the police know. If you can't get a hold of the police, call us.

• 28:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 28:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So all these people were calling and then like, I have this clue, this clue, this clue. They, this woman had found like, hidden away in like pipe, a storm drain, some bloody clothing, including a parka and like a rag and all these things. The Denver Post had taken the bloody parka and told her the other stuff wasn't important, so she had thrown it away.

• 28:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Good.

• 28:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 28:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 28:41Georgia Hardstark?

  So definitely listen to the fucking newspapers if they tell you that evidence isn't important.

• 28:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's funny because you, this is a lot like that book I'm read that I was reading on the plane, it's same, but mine's in the tens, but it's the exact same thing. We're like, once a murder happened, then people just came into town that were like, I'm an independent, I'm private detective. And they could be anybody and they could all access all areas of anything.

• 29:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 29:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Just very recently that they were like, applied logic to process.

• 29:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, how about nobody stands around here?

• 29:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And no one gets all the information.

• 29:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we keep it to ourselves.

• 29:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So they, so he had gotten rid of a pistol and a parka, so one of them had been found. He, Joe was arrested that night. So this dude, Joe Walker's story of the night of the murder was that he had gone to a drive-in and had a couple beers and then he had picked up a couple on his way home, he had picked up a couple who were in their twenties hitchhiking on the Same street Teresa disappeared from, a couple. They had asked to be taken to a lover's lane. The man that he had picked up of the couple drank from a pint of whiskey. And the woman argued with him about needing to get home and um, let's see. So they get to the lover's lane and the man who he to Joe described as short and stocky in his mid twenties, said he wanted to drive the car from there on, for whatever reason.

• 29:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Walker was like, no, you can't drive my car. They got into an argument and Joe says they began like fighting, punching each other outside the car. And then the man found Joe's forty five in the glove compartment and used it to club Joe in the head and Joe goes unconscious at this point.

• 30:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh.

• 30:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm hmm. When he comes to, the man is gone and the woman is dead, half nude body hanging out of the car trunk. He finds her like that. Yeah.

• 30:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:27Georgia Hardstark?

  He's panicked and quote scared stiff. So he puts her body in the trunk and drives south and disposes of her body off the bridge and tosses her clothes after her. Then he goes home to try to wash away all the blood. So he says someone else killed her and he disposed of her body because he was scared.

• 30:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he just had to do what he had to do. Yeah.

• 30:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't tell authorities.

• 30:47Karen Kilgariff?

  No, definitely don't bring people to the place where you can prove you didn't do it.

• 30:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Also, your wife isn't on your side. She's gonna tell on you. So be a little more chill about that.

• 30:56Karen Kilgariff?

  You haven't been that cool to her for like twenty five years.

• 30:58Georgia Hardstark?

  She's not stoked on you.

• 30:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 31:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So the cops thought this is a bullshit story. Obviously, they poked all these holes in it. And his wife, but his wife ends up believing he's innocent, even though the papers go wild and tarnish Joe and are like, this is the sex fiend.

• 31:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, and also is, didn't she start it?

• 31:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And then becomes convinced that she did the wrong thing.

• 31:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 31:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Um, the Denver Post soon gets all this, finds all this disturbing info about Joe. In nineteen forty seven, he was arrested in Oregon on a complaint that he'd made, quote, "loot advances toward two girls while driving a delivery truck." Um, but the, but the post headline was Oregon Police Disclose Girls, Eleven and Twelve Are Molested. So like all this crazy shit. And then, um, so he goes to trial in 1949 and the local jury is picked and of course, they've been reading these headlines constantly for fucking months. There was over 230 articles in less than six months written about this.

• 32:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 32:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a lot. So there's hair, blood, fiber evidence that ties him to the scene, but they're, but they never tested the semen that was found, which is really weird, even though the defense pressed for tests because they said that it would prove that the client wasn't the one who raped her. It was this hitchhiker.

• 32:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 32:17Georgia Hardstark?

  So I don't know why they never tested it. It's really weird. Um, a waitress at the diner, the drive-in where he had been, said that she had served Joe and a young woman shortly after 10:00 the evening she disappeared. Um, and the jury comes back two days later with a verdict of guilty of second degree murder and he's sentenced to eight years of life.

• 32:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So they think he was taking her out on a date?

• 32:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Not a date as much as like, hey, I'll give you a ride home. Would you just come get, because she was having a coffee, like, will you come get a coffee with me?

• 32:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 32:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'll take you home.

• 32:47Karen Kilgariff?

  But at the drive-in movie theater?

• 32:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a drive-in like restaurant.

• 32:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, restaurant.

• 32:52Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 32:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, I immediately went to movie theater.

• 32:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. But he had had beer and she had coffee and it's like, why are they, do they know each other? Why are they hanging out?

• 32:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, because I always go to like the fugitive style, what if what he's saying is true.

• 33:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 33:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't sound like it, like the idea that he would be, you going so far as to repaint your trunk?

• 33:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know.

• 33:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Disposing of a body speaks of guilt.

• 33:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 33:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 33:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I think for sure.

• 33:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So less than a month later, after he's put away, six months after Teresa's murder, two students at the same, from the same school are attacked next to Boulder Creek while on a blind date. The assailant hit the woman in the head with some kind of metal pipe and she was able to get away, but her date, Roy Spore, had his leg in a cast and couldn't run. His body is recovered from the creek the next day. His skull's fractured in several places. His murder has never, his murder has never been found, um, either by coincidence or not. Just as Teresa was, he's an engineering student.

• 33:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 33:55Georgia Hardstark?

  So two engineering students in six months are attacked and bludgeoned to death in the same area.

• 34:01Karen Kilgariff?

  In the same way.

• 34:01Georgia Hardstark?

  In the same way, in the same area.

• 34:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So there is a possibility that it's a coincidence.

• 34:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 34:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Or that it's not. That it's the same murder.

• 34:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That it's a serial killer, but that he's innocent.

• 34:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I mean, the engineering student thing could be a coincidence.

• 34:17Karen Kilgariff?

  I'd have to see some numbers.

• 34:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like how many engineering students are there?

• 34:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Divided by.

• 34:22Georgia Hardstark?

  A million.

• 34:22Karen Kilgariff?

  By X.

• 34:23Georgia Hardstark?

  X, X a million.

• 34:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, and then go ahead and round that off.

• 34:27Georgia Hardstark?

  To three.

• 34:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So, yeah.

• 34:29Georgia Hardstark?

  There's three engineering students.

• 34:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking crazy.

• 34:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Two of them had been killed.

• 34:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God, that's borderline a majority.

• 34:34Georgia Hardstark?

  If I were that third one, I'd get the fuck out of town.

• 34:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I would get on a train.

• 34:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Bye.

• 34:38Karen Kilgariff?

  In disguise, and I would get out of town.

• 34:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Or is he the killer?

• 34:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, fuck.

• 34:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I have to be the only engineering student.

• 34:46Karen Kilgariff?

  So sorry.

• 34:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That was him calling. That was the bell that when you get it completely right. That's what that was.

• 34:54Karen Kilgariff?

  When the theories go and go and go, and we finally hit on what happened.

• 34:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen's phone rings.

• 34:59Karen Kilgariff?

  God texts me and says.

• 35:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 35:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Here you go.

• 35:02Georgia Hardstark?

  You're doing God's work. You're doing my work.

• 35:04Karen Kilgariff?

  He said to say, hi, Georgia.

• 35:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, bro.

• 35:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And that actually your people are the ones that are right.

• 35:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good.

• 35:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 35:09Georgia Hardstark?

  She said.

• 35:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 35:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 35:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what she said.

• 35:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what she, that's what God, she said. Okay, blah, blah, blah. After 20 years, after Joe gets locked up, the Colorado Supreme Court overturned his conviction due to his claims of pretrial publicity. So, right before, or like pretty quickly before this, Sam Shepard, remember him? He's a doctor who maybe killed his wife, maybe didn't.

• 35:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 35:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, in Ohio, uh, he, his conviction had been overturned because of the media involvement and how much bullshit was talked. So, even if he did it or not, it doesn't matter. He didn't get a fair trial. So, based on that, this dude, Joe Walker, is like, I had it fucking worse. And they're like, yeah, you did. And they overturned his conviction.

• 35:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 35:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So, they concluded that the Denver Post had injected itself into the investigatory process by distorting evidence, presenting speculation as fact, and dubious detective work as infallible. And they described events that never happened and generally whipped up publicity, quote, "so extensive, so slanted and prejudicial, so calculated to inflame, and so all perversive as to make a fair trial for Walker impossible." So, whether or not he fucking did it, they let him go.

• 36:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:23Georgia Hardstark?

  He maintained his innocence until 1982, when he hanged himself in a Texas motel room.

• 36:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 36:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So we don't know who killed her, and we don't know if it's him. I'm gonna guess it is, but you know.

• 36:38Karen Kilgariff?

  But still, there's the doors open. I just, and I'm sorry to correct you, but this one people are gonna talk about.

• 36:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Hung?

• 36:45Karen Kilgariff?

  All perversive is what you said, but it's all pervasive.

• 36:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck!

• 36:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And perversive, I think, is like a different.

• 36:51Georgia Hardstark?

  You're right.

• 36:52Karen Kilgariff?

  More of a fetish thing. The all, all the dirty things you can think.

• 36:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna say it's perversive, though. I'm gonna say I meant perversive.

• 36:59Karen Kilgariff?

  You did say that.

• 37:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I wanna say it is correct that I meant that.

• 37:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you can do that if you want to.

• 37:04Georgia Hardstark?

  What was the words I used last time that ended up being?

• 37:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, dude.

• 37:09Georgia Hardstark?

  What was it? It was proclivity, but it was proclivity and propensity. Yeah, which turns out.

• 37:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Are the same.

• 37:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Are the same. And so proclivity, it's basically I was mashing up words.

• 37:20Karen Kilgariff?

  In, yeah, in retrospect, yeah.

• 37:22Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, I was doing it on purpose then.

• 37:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 37:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, we're back. Are there any updates for this?

• 37:31Georgia Hardstark?

  No case updates, but we did receive a hometown from a listener titled Earl Stanley Gardner. Actually, a motherfucking justice-seeking murderino.

• 37:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 37:39Georgia Hardstark?

  So here it is. Hi, ladies, animals, and Stevens. I was listening to Georgia's account of Teresa Catherine Foster's murder during my commute when she mentions Earl Stanley Gardner. While this dude is known for Perry Mason, and in this case, his questionable investigative assistance, and even more questionable law education, I freaked out. I think I gasped alone in my car because I spent the better part of a year researching Gardner and his true crime column, The Court of Last Resort for my honors thesis.

• 38:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa, smart.

• 38:08Georgia Hardstark?

  The column, which ran from 1948 to the 1960s in a pulp magazine called Argosy, so it out of the wrote narratives of other true crime magazines where the justice system always caught the bad guys. Instead of retelling these stories again and again, Gardner investigated cases where the justice system had purportedly failed to nab the right guy, making it an early example of true crime, which manages to captivate audiences as well as impact the cases they cover. All told, Gardner and his column contributed to the exoneration of seven men. So yeah, even though he's most known for Perry Mason, our dude Gardner should also be remembered for pissing off the authorities and getting people out of jail. One exoneree Clarence Bogie even became engaged with a reader that found him after

• 38:52Georgia Hardstark?

  reading Gardner's columns about him. Exoneration and matchmaker? Not a plus. Much love from a new cat owner and forever murderino, Leslie. Oh, did you send a picture of your new cat? Mmm, let's see it. Tell your cat I said pss, pss, pss. That's my favorite bumper sticker. That's pretty incredible. Yeah. I want to read more about. I want to read that piece. Never heard of that. No. All right, let's get into Karen's story about Luigi Longhi, the shampoo killer.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency?

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 39:34Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportion.

• 39:38Speaker 03

  Smell since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 39:43Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 39:46Speaker 01

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• 40:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so this, my murder this week is from one of those packs of true crime trading cards that Stephen gave us. Well, you gave them to us two Christmases ago? Is that right?

• 40:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 41:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 41:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't believe it's been that long. I know.

• 41:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So I think I might have gone through all of mine. Like, I think if you gave us four or five packs each.

• 41:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't open all of them. I'm really weird about that because it's just such a special thing when it's in a package.

• 41:15Karen Kilgariff?

  But I mean, are you gonna open them?

• 41:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. I'm scared. Like, I wanna save one unopened.

• 41:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, but open the other four. But there's good stuff in there.

• 41:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I know. I need to. Okay, I'll do it.

• 41:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, I mean, I get what you mean, but then, well, I'll just tell you this and you can decide for yourself.

• 41:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Should I do a video of the, you know how they do like unpackaging videos?

• 41:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 41:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Should I do that with them?

• 41:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Hundred percent.

• 41:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'll do it.

• 41:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Perfect. Please log on to Georgia at YouTube dot net for the new unpacking video.

• 41:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Put it on our Instagram.

• 41:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 41:46Georgia Hardstark?

  My favorite murder, my favorite murder Instagram.

• 41:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Make it an Instagram story.

• 41:49Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I hate those.

• 41:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, shoot.

• 41:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Because they go, okay, why am I talking?

• 41:52Karen Kilgariff?

  They disappear?

• 41:53Georgia Hardstark?

  In 24 hours, right?

• 41:54Karen Kilgariff?

  What's that about?

• 41:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, it's stupid.

• 41:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Is for sex thing?

• 41:57Georgia Hardstark?

  It's throwaway culture.

• 41:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Everything around us is throwaway.

• 42:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't get me started.

• 42:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, well, here's what I will tell you. So I have gone through all of mine.

• 42:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 42:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Pulled out a lot of the mafias because, sorry, it's just not my jam.

• 42:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Gotten a lot of great ones, but this one was from a brand new pack that, sorry, Stephen, it's not the pack you gave us.

• 42:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 42:22Karen Kilgariff?

  But a listener that we met in Las Vegas gave us.

• 42:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And I pulled this out on the plane, I think probably flying home or flying to Phoenix, and I laughed out loud like a real creep at this.

• 42:36Georgia Hardstark?

  The specific one?

• 42:37Karen Kilgariff?

  The specific one.

• 42:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 42:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And then was overjoyed and then was like, I'm finally one ahead. Like, I know what I wanna do, which just never happens. I always feel like I'm scrambling to think of things. So I'm like, here it is, my, whatever.

• 42:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm excited.

• 42:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a little short, though, because it is a foreign crime and it's a one So, most of the articles that I found that were the same, it was people regurgitating the same article, to the point where there was one that was just somebody that had taken the end of the story and put it at the top of the paragraph and then basically told it backwards. It was like, but word for word, it was the same.

• 43:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's like, they hit translate. And it's a bad translation.

• 43:17Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, make it your own. You put something in there that's for you. But anyway, so, um, thank you for, the listener who gave us, I'm sorry, I don't have your name, on this piece of paper. That's really uncool. Here's what I will say, though. Those true crime trading cards were written by Valerie Jones and Peggy Collier. And the art is drawn by Paul Lee. And it was all done in 1992.

• 43:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I love this shout out.

• 43:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 43:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Because they made all those fucking things.

• 43:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And I love it's two women.

• 43:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's two women, and they took heat for it. Remember when, when they came out and everyone's like, this is disgusting. And this is this culture of...

• 43:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Celebrating murderers.

• 43:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Where it's like, no, it's just a bunch of great, interesting information.

• 43:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Give us 20 years, bro.

• 43:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It's history, baby.

• 44:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen, baby, bro.

• 44:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, it's out, it's all out of Forestville, which is a little town north of Petaluma.

• 44:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 44:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Probably about half an hour going toward the Russian River, that I know very well.

• 44:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That's your fucking hood. Let's invite them to our, if we ever have a Sacramento show.

• 44:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a good idea. Or a show in Santa Rosa.

• 44:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Sacramento, you guys can stop sending us your threatening postcards that you've been sending us.

• 44:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right. We have things in the works for you, you beautiful, demanding listeners.

• 44:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Threatening has worked. So...

• 44:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And will work.

• 44:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, okay.

• 44:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, sorry.

• 44:32Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no. So, this is the story of the murderer Luigi Longhi. Now, I don't speak Italian. This is to surprise you.

• 44:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait, you don't?

• 44:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't speak Italian.

• 44:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry, what?

• 44:44Karen Kilgariff?

  So I'm not sure if L-O-N-G-H-I, Longhi, is, I assume...

• 44:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Longhi.

• 44:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Longhi is what I'm thinking. Yeah. So Luigi Longhi was born in 1954 to Italian parents in Switzerland. And from a very early age, he had a sexual fetish that got him into a lot of trouble with the law.

• 45:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh oh, which one?

• 45:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, it's a very interesting and rare one. At age 10, he was arrested for stealing women's wigs and bottles of shampoo from hair salons in the neighborhood.

• 45:14Georgia Hardstark?

  That is a new one.

• 45:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you heard anything about this?

• 45:17Georgia Hardstark?

  No. I mean, that's a new fetish that I haven't heard of.

• 45:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And from such a young age.

• 45:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. Um. Really, what happened?

• 45:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I got this, uh, just to go into, I was trying to be like, oh, what would that childhood obsession with hair, what would that mean? That specific, um, I guess we'll call it, it's a paraphilia or a fetish.

• 45:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 45:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, but it's, I can't find anything about it anywhere. It only brings you to the one where you tr- trichophilia, I think, where you pull your hair out.

• 45:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so, but.

• 45:48Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a bummer one.

• 45:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That is, yeah. That's a tough one. I had a friend that used to pick a little part of his eyebrow all the time when he was stressed out.

• 45:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 45:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So you knew that he was like in the middle of an edit or something when he, like, part of his eyebrow would be gone right there.

• 46:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Sucks.

• 46:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It'd always go back.

• 46:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I knew a little girl who, when I was little, who pulled her hair out. It was really sad. And her brother, like, threatened all her friends, all the girls in her grade, if you fucking make fun of my sister, I will.

• 46:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 46:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, it was very sweet. He, like, kind of, yeah, it was really sweet.

• 46:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I think there are a lot of childhood, uh, things like that, that it's common. I think a lot of people have that.

• 46:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone, everyone shows their anxiety in different ways.

• 46:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I used to do a thing where I wouldn't take my jacket off on the playground, even though it was hot.

• 46:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, why?

• 46:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know. It was super weird.

• 46:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I always thought that people were putting notes on my back, and so I would, I would constantly be reaching to touch my back. And constantly be checking my back.

• 46:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Why, did you see that happen to somebody else?

• 46:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably in, like, Parker Lewis Can't Lose or some shit, like, and a fucking Saved by the Bell. And so I was, like, constantly, but just, I thought everyone was making fun of me.

• 46:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course.

• 46:46Georgia Hardstark?

  All the time.

• 46:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Georgia Hardstark?

  That was mine.

• 46:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause you were in junior high?

• 46:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Elementary school.

• 46:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 46:51Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I was on math in junior high, so no one would fuck with me. That was my tick.

• 46:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Did that word?

• 46:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That was my tick in junior high is taking math. Just, and maybe it'll stop fucking with me.

• 47:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's a different kind of tick.

• 47:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 47:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Um.

• 47:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, sorry.

• 47:04Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no. Uh, so this is on Wikipedia, which, you know how they always have, like, you, it'll cite it if you need, um, a reference? Like, if you're just stating something in an article, they're like, you have to prove this.

• 47:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I think there should be the same citations for grammar, because listen to how this paragraph sounds.

• 47:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it, let me have it.

• 47:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Hair fetishism comes from a natural fascination with the species on the admiration of the coat as its texture provides pleasurable sensations. An infant develops this kind of pleasure to feel the hair on his or her early life, manifesting in aggressive behavior that will drive to pull the hair of people with which it interacts.

• 47:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That was the most gorgeous sentence. I'm getting that whole thing tattooed on my back in italics.

• 47:45Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, when you hear something and you're just like, oh, my God, that's it. That is like the wisdom of the ages on its coat.

• 47:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I want you to repeat it, but it's too long, but I still love it.

• 47:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really long and also essentially it's just like children with hair fetishism like the touch touching hair at an early age.

• 48:02Georgia Hardstark?

  But it says so much more. Will someone put that in like that quote as like one of those motivational photo quotes with like the ocean in the background, please, and we'll post it?

• 48:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe if there's a lady that has hair down to her feet. Oh, if you could superimpose Crystal Gale into this.

• 48:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 48:19Karen Kilgariff?

  She's a she's an old country. You know her?

• 48:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no. Is she the one with the long lady with the longest hair in the world?

• 48:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And she was Loretta Lynn's sister. Anyhow.

• 48:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Interesting.

• 48:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I also then in trying to find articles about the shampoo, the fetish of wanting to shampoo women's hair, I found an article from the Independent in from 2007, where they talk about the results of the largest global study of sexual kinks ever undertaken. And it turns out that among sexual preferences for body parts, feet and toes are the most popular at 47%.

• 48:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Head, shoulders, feet and toes, feet and toes.

• 48:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all feet and toes, feet and toes.

• 49:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Feet and toes, feet and toes.

• 49:01Karen Kilgariff?

  They also found that when it came to objects associated with the body, shoes, boots, and other footwear scored 64%. And just to give you a sense of compared to other things.

• 49:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And this is based on the views of men and women.

• 49:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 49:18Karen Kilgariff?

  150 people with a penchant for hearing aids.

• 49:23Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 49:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Two who had a fetish for pacemakers. They 12% of them were turned on by underwear, 9% by coats.

• 49:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, 7% by hair. So it's kind of in the low middle, I guess.

• 49:40Georgia Hardstark?

  But it's, but it's present.

• 49:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's there. It represents, but it's in no way near.

• 49:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, 5% muscles, 4% genitals.

• 49:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Only 5% muscles?

• 49:50Karen Kilgariff?

  5% muscles and 4% genitals.

• 49:52Georgia Hardstark?

  You'd think that'd be number one.

• 49:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You would think, but maybe it's just too obvious, like two on the nose.

• 49:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Two on the genitals.

• 49:58Karen Kilgariff?

  You're, it's like, no, I'm into noses.

• 50:00Georgia Hardstark?

  How about the nose? Yeah.

• 50:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, the lowest scores, and so sorry, guys, went to stethoscopes, wristwatches, bracelets, diapers and catheters.

• 50:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, catheters.

• 50:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh, catheters.

• 50:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Where did my, mine of nacho cheese fries come in?

• 50:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It ranks, it's, it, oh my God, 8%. Look at this.

• 50:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Great. I see nacho cheese fries and I'm just like, ready to go.

• 50:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Girl, girl.

• 50:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Guy. Vince.

• 50:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Now then, from this article, I stumbled onto an article about object sexuality, which is that thing where people fall in love with bridges and marry them.

• 50:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, like the actual object they're into. Okay.

• 50:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause I was kind of trying to go like, well, if you're, if you don't have anything to tell me about washing ladies' hair, then maybe this area will. And I just kept clicking on things that were bringing, I actually got to a hair washing porn site.

• 50:50Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 50:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, I didn't click on it though, because.

• 50:54Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 50:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause that's forever.

• 50:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Did you, what about, is the person who married a roller coaster in there?

• 50:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Well, in my short list, uh, this is a women's day article from 2010 where there, it's a list of the 10 known romances between people and things.

• 51:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 51:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, including the Berlin Wall, a fairground ride, which I think is what you're talking about, a body pillow, totally understandable.

• 51:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I get that. Jesus.

• 51:20Karen Kilgariff?

  A Nintendo video game character.

• 51:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 51:23Karen Kilgariff?

  A Volkswagen Beetle. Ew.

• 51:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 51:26Karen Kilgariff?

  The World Trade Center.

• 51:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait.

• 51:28Karen Kilgariff?

  A steam locomotive, understandable, an iBook, sure.

• 51:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 51:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And the most romantic of all, a metal processing system. So.

• 51:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, man, there's like a glitch in the matrix of your brain when those things happen.

• 51:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I mean.

• 51:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Who are we to say?

• 51:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's right. It's, everybody gets some weird thing that happens to them when they're like five and they go like, ew, that's my thing. And then that's just how it is.

• 51:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I guess you get emotionally attached to whatever.

• 51:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. You have some weird memory that's just like, ooh, Christmas and poinsettias that turns me on. Okay, so here, let's get, let's get back. We're not trying to kink shame anybody.

• 52:07Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 52:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I just kind of throw some things out there.

• 52:09Georgia Hardstark?

  You're actually kink unshaming and showing all the beautiful ways that there are to love and fuck.

• 52:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Cause one, I, you know, focused on the foot, like the fucking aspect, but then I brought it around to love with a metal processing system.

• 52:21Georgia Hardstark?

  No shame. Get yours the way you have to.

• 52:24Karen Kilgariff?

  From a bridge?

• 52:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't hurt anyone in the process.

• 52:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Or a bridge.

• 52:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. Don't hurt a bridge.

• 52:29Karen Kilgariff?

  They're sensitive. They have to be there all the time for people.

• 52:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:33Karen Kilgariff?

  They seem strong.

• 52:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:35Karen Kilgariff?

  But they're really not.

• 52:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Deep down.

• 52:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Deep down on a windy day.

• 52:38Karen Kilgariff?

  All right. So Luigi Longi spent some time in mental institutions, uh, and he was eventually deported from Switzerland in 1977 when he was 25. So he moved to Denmark, a city called Padborg. Padborg.

• 52:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do it.

• 52:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, I think I just, no, make the worst fucking Ikea joke in the world. Please mark that and all ideas similar to it.

• 53:04Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no, leave it. Cause you held back.

• 53:06Karen Kilgariff?

  To show that I have control.

• 53:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks. Um, okay. So the, he says that this is when he began hiring women who would let him wash their hair. Uh, he never asked for sex. He never harmed them in any way. He just shampooed them compulsively. In fact, he was a virgin.

• 53:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm. Shampooing hair.

• 53:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Uh, that's what he needed to get it done. So on May 30th, 1981, when Luigi was 29 years old, he picked up a German hitchhiker named Heike Freihite at the Danish-German border, and he offered her to buy her a ticket to Copenhagen if she would come and let him wash her hair in his apartment. And she was like, okay, I can get home.

• 53:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's almost like if she, instead he, like, offering that to me is creepier than if he was like, can you come over so I can murder you?

• 53:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 53:59Georgia Hardstark?

  The hair washing part is just like, what?

• 54:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's all questions.

• 54:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 54:04Karen Kilgariff?

  There's, there's not, you can't trust it. It doesn't sound normal.

• 54:08Georgia Hardstark?

  It doesn't sound that easy. You know, it can't be that easy.

• 54:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Because normally, the way hair washing works is you pay someone else to do it for you.

• 54:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And like, you don't have to be alone with a strange man.

• 54:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And I know this is, yeah, right, that's key. Uh, I know this is, you know, like, obviously, he had mental problems from an early age, but I wish someone had told him, you can get a job washing women's hair and get paid for it.

• 54:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I did it.

• 54:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you really?

• 54:35Georgia Hardstark?

  For a short time, yeah.

• 54:36Karen Kilgariff?

  What, are there any tricks we need to know?

• 54:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, every person who washes hair has a spot that they just immediately miss. Like, you just ignore this one. And so mine was like, the back, right side of the neck. So you have to make sure to do that. Don't spray people in the face. I was really bad at it.

• 54:54Karen Kilgariff?

  With that hose?

• 54:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. I was just, it was, it's really intimate. It's really, really intimate. And like, it's, and I was like 20, not even 20 years old. So I was just like, suddenly like, caressing people's heads.

• 55:09Karen Kilgariff?

  With, basically kind of with your boobs on their face.

• 55:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, is the position.

• 55:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 55:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It's odd.

• 55:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It's really creepy and intimate.

• 55:16Karen Kilgariff?

  And as you, like, that's an interesting perspective, because just as the receiver, you just, I would just close my eyes. I'm like, I'm at the massage parlor.

• 55:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I think that's key is that, close your eyes. It makes it less creepy.

• 55:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, don't fucking stare at the person that's trying to wash your hair.

• 55:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 55:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not the time for eye contact.

• 55:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Be polite and close your fucking eyes.

• 55:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Have a personal moment. If you can't close your eyes, because you're that, you know, the insanity inside you is such, you can't be alone in there in the dark. Look away.

• 55:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Baby.

• 55:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Do a half, do a half, half lid look away.

• 55:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Zone out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Please, if you can.

• 55:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 55:50Karen Kilgariff?

  She goes there, he washes her hair, to the point where, and this, I wish, there was so much more information about this, they both fell asleep. So.

• 56:00Georgia Hardstark?

  He must have been good.

• 56:01Karen Kilgariff?

  He must have been good. She could have been on some drugs.

• 56:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 56:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, felt comfortable. He may have been very non-threatening and like she just was tired.

• 56:09Georgia Hardstark?

  If you ever have had a good hair wash, man.

• 56:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It can be so nice.

• 56:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 56:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, so he wakes up and he wants to wash her hair again.

• 56:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 56:20Karen Kilgariff?

  But he knows now this is the dividing line between when he usually gets women to wash, let him wash their hair is that he does it and then they leave. So now he wants to do it again. He knows she's gonna say no, so he decides to tie her up.

• 56:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh oh.

• 56:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So he binds her hands and her feet and then she wake, so she's waking up as he takes her back over to the chair at the sink to wash her hair again.

• 56:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God.

• 56:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And once she gets in the chair, he gags her and, and then binds her to the chair so that she won't move around. And then he proceeds to wash her hair for hours and hours until he runs out of shampoo.

• 56:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you fucking kidding me?

• 56:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh. And the, and this is the part where, and I was, it was not humor laugh. It was like nervous, what the fuck am I reading on this card?

• 57:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit, holy shit, yeah.

• 57:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, just, I've never heard anything like this.

• 57:07Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 57:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so then when he runs out of shampoo, he looks around his apartment for other things he can use. So then he starts shampooing her hair with honey. Then he shampoos her hair with salad dressing.

• 57:18Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 57:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And cottage cheese. So, which is horrifying.

• 57:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I am speechless.

• 57:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And insane. And then it also reminded me in the seventies, and I can't remember if we've talked about this or not, my mom used to put a conditioning pack on her hair on the weekends that was just mayonnaise.

• 57:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I used to do.

• 57:38Karen Kilgariff?

  How do you stand that?

• 57:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 57:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It was so gross. And she would have it, she'd have like perfectly manicured fingernails with mayonnaise underneath them. She'd be like, honey, hand me that thing. And I'd be like, I can't be anywhere near you.

• 57:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I would use like fucking fistfuls of fucking mayonnaise in your hair. You wrap, plastic wrap around your head.

• 57:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 57:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And you just let it fucking marinate.

• 57:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And your hair is beautiful and shiny and stinks.

• 58:02Karen Kilgariff?

  The stink is so gross.

• 58:04Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so bad. It's fucking raw eggs.

• 58:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 58:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Rotten eggs.

• 58:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's rotten eggs that you're putting on your head.

• 58:10Georgia Hardstark?

  What I think is interesting about the fact that he did that and kept doing it with other stuff is that it's not about washing her hair. And it's like that, it makes you understand something more about this fetish, which is it's like, it's manipulating the scalp and hair of a woman and the act of doing that, rather than the washing.

• 58:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. It's not about cleanliness.

• 58:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Not about cleanliness, or, or the woman enjoying it.

• 58:33Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 58:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Because no one's gonna enjoy cottage cheese fucking rubbed into their head unless it's you or your mom.

• 58:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And a small handful of other people.

• 58:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:41Karen Kilgariff?

  No, it's about his enjoyment of touching her hair with liquid in it, basically.

• 58:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And probably rinsing it.

• 58:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Manipulating the scalp and touching hair.

• 58:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so, so all the while, while she's being shampooed, of course, she's struggling against her restraints.

• 59:01Karen Kilgariff?

  But now he's worked himself up into a frenzy because he can shampoo her. He, like, there's no, he's out of control. He can do whatever he wants. So then he decides, he wants to see what she looks like naked. And so he rips her clothes off. And so this is when he begins to stomp her feet on the ground. She's trying to get like a neighbor to notice or know that something's wrong. And when she starts to do that, he's put, and it doesn't say when this happened, he's put a noose around her neck. So he's tightening it, trying to make her stop stomping her feet. And she ends up dying of asphyxiation.

• 59:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 59:38Karen Kilgariff?

  He later tells the police that it was an accident. He says, "I never intended to kill her, but suddenly she went limp and I realized she was dead." But, in a couple articles too, the way they phrased it was almost like she strangled herself by fighting against the ligatures. And it's like, it's if you put a noose-

• 59:57Georgia Hardstark?

  If the ligature weren't there, right.

• 59:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly. And also if he, if there's anything noose-like in the story, sorry, that there's one, there's one use for that.

• 1:00:06Georgia Hardstark?

  If there's a way to strangle yourself because there's something around your neck, then, then he killed her.

• 1:00:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:00:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not, he strangled her.

• 1:00:14Karen Kilgariff?

  If you were beginning to strangle yourself because you were moving, you'd stop moving.

• 1:00:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. This is not on her. Uh, okay. So of course he panics and what does he do? Which then also combines some other interests that we have. He stuffs her body into a wall space, puts lime on it and gets the fuck out of dodge. Nine months later, there are workmen who are re-insulating the roof.

• 1:00:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Nine months? They didn't find her? Does lime work that well?

• 1:00:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, well, no, I didn't say what like, they found her body. So it's not like it completely disintegrated.

• 1:00:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:00:50Karen Kilgariff?

  But maybe it controlled the smell.

• 1:00:52Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I mean. It's like, no one was like.

• 1:00:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I have no idea. But yeah, it took nine months and then they fucking looked down and there's a body in a wall, which is horrifying. Um, but also one of the stories that we were asking people to send us of things in walls. Um, so anyway, Luigi Longi pled not guilty, but on March 11th, 1983, he was found to be criminally insane and confined to a mental institution for an indefinite amount of time.

• 1:01:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I was thinking this was like the 40s.

• 1:01:19Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:01:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:01:21Karen Kilgariff?

  83. So because the true crime cards were written in 1992.

• 1:01:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:25Karen Kilgariff?

  On the card, it says where he remains until this day.

• 1:01:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, we don't know if that's true, but if he is still alive today, he'd be 66.

• 1:01:34Georgia Hardstark?

  He's young.

• 1:01:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the short and singular story of Luigi Longi.

• 1:01:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:01:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's go find him.

• 1:01:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's creepy. That's so creepy.

• 1:01:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Guys, send us your, tell us your fetishes.

• 1:01:54Karen Kilgariff?

  No, thanks. Steven's like, no.

• 1:01:59Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:01:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Imagining the inbox now.

• 1:02:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Send Steven your fetish.

• 1:02:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, we have all these new listeners, the people who have no interest in true crime whatsoever.

• 1:02:07Georgia Hardstark?

  They just want us, their fetish is us reading their fetish.

• 1:02:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right. Against our will.

• 1:02:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh-huh. Um, but that was fucked up.

• 1:02:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That was a quick episode.

• 1:02:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back. Karen, any updates?

• 1:02:23Karen Kilgariff?

  No updates for this story.

• 1:02:24Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Well, then let's get into good things of the week.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder wantons.

• 1:02:40Speaker 03

  911 Nashville returns.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 1:02:45Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:03:03Speaker 00

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• 1:03:28Speaker 04

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• 1:03:58Georgia Hardstark?

  What's your thing that makes you happy this week? You're positive.

• 1:04:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, my thing is another gift from a person in the VIP line, the Peeling. It's a book called "The Man From The Train" by a man who's normally a baseball writer named Bill James, but he also wrote the book "Popular Crime", which a lot of us have read.

• 1:04:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I have to read it.

• 1:04:23Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's very cool because he's approaching, it's basically, there's this, you have to read it, so I don't want to overly spoil, but he's linking the Velazquez murders and a bunch of other really grisly murders. It's one guy that used to ride the train. And it's just incredible.

• 1:04:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible. And he uses that kind of like, here's all the things this guy did. And he did it every single time. And they went through and pulled all the stories from back then of was somebody killed by an axe in a small town near a railroad. And it's incredible. They did so much research.

• 1:05:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I can't wait to write it.

• 1:05:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so, so good. And also, the way he writes, like, sometimes I feel like when I read true crime books, it's very like, it gets very, uh, prosy and like, kind of like, the very overly descriptive. This guy, it's like, he's just talking to you. He was like, we'll talk about that later.

• 1:05:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, here's the research. This is it.

• 1:05:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's like, and that you might, that might remind you of this, but it comes back later. So we'll talk about that then. Like, it's really cool narrative. And then it's just really clear. And it's one of those really satisfying, like, if you know about this crime, and this crime, and this crime, he's like, it's all one guy.

• 1:05:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Nice.

• 1:05:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'm, I really want to read it.

• 1:05:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I'm halfway done. So you'll have it in, you know, two weeks.

• 1:05:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:05:44Karen Kilgariff?

  My-

• 1:05:45Georgia Hardstark?

  In seven months.

• 1:05:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Great.

• 1:05:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Or I think, yeah, or I'll buy it. Uh, oh, I just bought A Stranger Beside Me. Um, can I just say cats? I think that's making me happy is cats, my cats, and watching them.

• 1:05:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 1:05:58Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what's making me happy right now. It's just nice to fucking sit and chill with them. And we're gone so much touring that like, when I get to come home and see them, it just makes me really happy.

• 1:06:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Great.

• 1:06:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back.

• 1:06:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So this episode, as we all know, was originally entitled Courage Shoulders.

• 1:06:18Georgia Hardstark?

  But if we were naming it today, maybe we would call it-

• 1:06:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it should be Not With My Steven.

• 1:06:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 1:06:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Not in my backyard.

• 1:06:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Not with my Steven. Then all of the Sars guards.

• 1:06:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that's, that one is pretty great.

• 1:06:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Always.

• 1:06:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Head, shoulders, feet and toes.

• 1:06:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Head, shoulders, feet and toes, which was Georgia's remix of the classic children's hit. And of course, bridges are sensitive.

• 1:06:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, all right. Well, thanks for listening, everyone, here in 2026. Let's go back to 2018 to say goodbye.

• 1:06:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, thanks for listening, you guys.

• 1:06:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks, guys, for listening. Um-

• 1:06:57Karen Kilgariff?

  All right, stay sexy.

• 1:06:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:06:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Bye.

• 1:06:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Elvis von Cookie?

• 1:07:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:07:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second true crime voyage sets sail March 20, 2020. For a five night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:07:15Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack for live recordings, behind the scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:07:32Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award winning, kid free ships.

• 1:07:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 1:07:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:07:40Speaker 00

  Okay, laundry stinks, literally. I mean, you could just keep buying new underwear. Not that I've ever done that. Or maybe sort your clothes into piles based on how re-wearable or filthy they are. Or just use Arm & Hammer Deep Clean. It's made for real life stinks and stains. So even if you don't do laundry the quote, "right way," Deep Clean will knock it out. I mean, it is from the number one liquid detergent brand that tackles more loads than any other. Come clean with Arm & Hammer Deep Clean. Number one claim based on total wash loads sold.

• 1:08:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, standup comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast, all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest. Ooh, I scammed them. What? I could talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.