Rachael Kirkconnell: I Was Blindsided

Join Alex in the studio with The Bachelor’s Rachael Kirkconnell. Rachael details her blindside breakup from Matt James after four years together. She discusses why they never lived together, the insecurities she struggled with in their relationship, how the breakup conversation started, and what she thought of his abrupt Instagram announcement.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 1:28Alex Cooper?

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• 3:04Alex Cooper?

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• 3:13Alex Cooper?

  Rachel Kirkconnell, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you. Obviously, you're going through a very, very public breakup right now. It's like not under the best circumstances that we're sitting down together. I think it was a shock to the world. We're going to find out today if it was a shock to you, but just like overall, how are you doing right now?

• 3:48Alex Cooper?

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• 7:14Speaker 03

  Um, it's different every day. I'm doing okay. I would say some days are better than others. Like one day I'm like feeling kind of empowered. I'm like, you know what? Yeah, it's okay. Like, I'm excited to be on my own. And then the next day I like can barely get out of bed and I just miss him and I'm sad about everything. Um, so yeah, it just comes and goes. It's different every day.

• 7:36Alex Cooper?

  I think that like, why I especially want to talk to you today and what we're going to get into though, is like, even you just saying that is so relatable. Like, probably everyone watching this has been through a breakup and a breakup is like not linear where you're like one day like, oh my God, I'm perfect again. So like, I appreciate you being honest because breakups are so emotionally devastating and hard, especially if you're the one getting broken up with. I obviously want to talk to you about everything that's happened. But first, I do think it's kind of important, we just kind of go back to like, when you met Matt on The Bachelor. Why did you want to go on that show?

• 8:14Speaker 03

  Oh my gosh, it's actually a funny story. I didn't want to go on the show.

• 8:19Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  Did not sign myself up for the show. My friends nominated me and they didn't tell me that they nominated me. I think they put in just some, you know, the filled out the online thing and I got a call. I was grocery shopping. It was like middle of COVID. So I'm getting this call from a random LA number and I'm like, that's so weird. Like, who's trying to reach out to me right now from LA? But I was grocery shopping, so I didn't answer. Got a text from the same phone number. Didn't open the text. I was like this, I thought it was like a job. I was applying for jobs everywhere. It was like one of those things where it was like. You know, I don't think anyone knew what was going on in the world.

• 9:03Speaker 03

  So I just was seeing what could happen. Um, and so I thought it was a job getting back to me. And then I got a voicemail. So then I'm like, oh, my gosh, I need to call these people back if like they're actually, you know, trying to set up an interview with me or something. So I get to my car and I immediately listened to the voicemail and it's someone from The Bachelor saying they received an application from me. I thought it was a joke. I thought it was a prank. I texted my friends. I'm like, who did this? Like, what's going on? So three of my friends started freaking out and they were like, oh, my gosh, we filled out an application for you like months ago. So it's real. You know, I didn't think it was an actual thing. Um, and at first I was like, I'm not doing that.

• 9:46Speaker 03

  I'm gonna be the villain or I'm gonna be like one of the crazy girls. I didn't know how it worked. So I was like, I'm gonna be, I don't know, just not, it's not gonna go well for me. So at first I was like, no, I'm not doing that. That sounds crazy. Um, and then I did have a call with them and they were like, you know what? Just go with the process and just see. Like, my friends were like, just see what they even want from you. Like, I just wanna see the ins and outs. So I was like, okay. So I started doing interviews and I still was like really nervous about it, really not feeling it, but it was COVID and it was just like a, let's just see where this goes. Then they announced Matt in June, I think, as a Bachelor. And that's when I was like, wait, okay.

• 10:31Speaker 03

  He's very, very attractive. He seems like a great guy and I would love to get to meet him.

• 10:38Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 10:38Speaker 03

  So that's when I was like, okay, actually, this would be really fun if given the opportunity. And I don't think any of us found out, I think like two weeks before we had to fly out, we got like the okay if we were on the show or not. So I had two weeks to like decide if I wanted to do it, get all my shit together and, you know.

• 10:57Alex Cooper?

  Wait, why do you think your friends applied you? Like, had you come out of a breakup? Were you chronically single? Like, what was your vibe?

• 11:05Speaker 03

  Um, I think at the time, a lot of my friends were in relationships and I wasn't. Um, and my friends love or loved the show. I don't know if they really watch so much now, but at the time, loved The Bachelor. I think it- It just, um, whose season? I think it was Pilot Pete's season, right?

• 11:24Alex Cooper?

  Oh, my God.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  And it was a shit show. It was great TV, you know?

• 11:28Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, it was.

• 11:28Speaker 03

  So that was like peak Bachelor, I would say.

• 11:30Alex Cooper?

  My God.

• 11:31Speaker 03

  Um, so my friends were like, we need to get one of our friends on this show. And I mean, it was like me and I think two other girls in our group were single and they just were like, we need to apply, Rachel. We think she'd be great.

• 11:42Alex Cooper?

  Had you been in a serious relationship before The Bachelor?

• 11:46Speaker 03

  Honestly, not like an adult, like, serious relationship. I think my last relationship was a year before that. It was about six months. And it was with like one of my best friends growing up. We were just always like, you know, had feelings for each other, so we gave it a shot. And it just was one of those things where we probably should have just stayed friends.

• 12:09Alex Cooper?

  Classic.

• 12:10Speaker 03

  Um, and it wasn't even him. It was just more so me. Like, I was just going through a hard time or a weird time in my life. And I was like, I don't need to be in this relationship, especially with like one of my best friends. And now, to this day, our relationship's weird, but...

• 12:25Alex Cooper?

  That's like the worst, when I have people write in all the time and they're like, should I go for my friend? And I'm like, my advice is just prepare that it will never be the same. So, but I also like commend you for like going for it. Cause then also you, then the other side is you always have the what if.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:41Alex Cooper?

  Would we have been perfect? So I guess like hearing that though, like, was there any part of you knowing how The Bachelor works? That you were nervous at all that like this is something that ends an engagement after a couple of weeks of knowing someone?

• 12:54Speaker 03

  I think like it was one of those things where I couldn't even believe it was happening. Couldn't even believe that I kept making it through these interviews and that I got the call and that they actually wanted me on the show. Um, I feel like, I don't know, I told myself like, I'm kind of boring. Like, I don't know if I would be good TV for this show. I guess I was confused why they wanted me on the show.

• 13:19Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 03

  Um, and so I think the whole time, even when I got there, I'll never forget walking, very first night, walking out of my hotel room and seeing...

• 13:31Speaker 03

  One of the girls, she's so stunning, so perfect. Her name's Sarah. I saw her and I was like, I'm screwed. All of these girls are so stunning, gorgeous, seem perfect. And I just was wondering like, why I was there really? And then it got to the point where I was like, well, I guess like, I just hope I make it past this first night. So I never, I guess I didn't really think too much about an engagement, only because I didn't think I would ever get that far.

• 14:01Alex Cooper?

  I think that makes sense. And I don't, like, I think sometimes with The Bachelor too, like, people would be like, so you weren't going in for an engagement? Like, I don't think anyone goes in with that headspace. I think it's kind of more your situation where you're like, I'm throwing myself into this situation. There's no way I'm gonna end up at the end.

• 14:17Speaker 03

  Well, there was like 40 girls on our season two.

• 14:20Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 14:20Speaker 03

  So I'm like, what are the odds out of 40 plus, or, you know, 36 to 40 girls? Why would he pick me? I don't know. I was like, there's just no way that, out of all these women, that he would be interested in me of all.

• 14:34Alex Cooper?

  What, what was your first impression, like, in person of Matt when you met him?

• 14:39Speaker 03

  Um, I don't want to say like, love at first sight, but definitely just like, total infatuation, like, right off the bat. I feel like we had a connection immediately. And it's funny though, because I'm sure all the girls say that when they first get in, like, we clicked or we sparked or whatever. But I think he would agree with that, that we both just felt a connection immediately. And it felt very comfortable and, um, like, we were just talking to each other, like, there weren't a million cameras and a million people around. We were talking about, like, Waffle House and, you know, just stupid things that they probably were angry that we were chatting about, because they're like, this is not good TV.

• 15:22Alex Cooper?

  Right. They're like, let's ramp it up, like, either make out or get in a fight. And you're guys like, but Waffle House.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  And that was like, that was like, every conversation we had was just like, we were just talking about stupid stuff that wasn't good for TV, but to us, it was just natural, normal, fun, easy conversation.

• 15:39Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, it's like the real shit in life. Like, it's not gonna be all glamour once you guys leave. You guys may be literally going to Waffle House. And like, you'll want to be chilling.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  The show is like, they're like, tell us your deepest, darkest secrets and your trauma, you know? And it's like, I'm sure you'll get there eventually, but I'm not gonna like tell someone that two minutes into knowing them.

• 15:58Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 15:59Speaker 03

  You know, so.

• 16:00Alex Cooper?

  What was the moment that like really made you realize like, oh my God, I'm fully falling in love with this guy?

• 16:06Speaker 03

  I think it was like right before our one-on-one. I didn't get a one-on-one until like the fifth week of filming. I was pretty late in the game to get a one-on-one.

• 16:20Speaker 03

  And I don't know, just like what little time we would have together.

• 16:25Speaker 03

  It was just so easy and I hadn't like clicked or just sparked with someone like that. Maybe ever in my life, just like right off the bat, just like so into each other, you know?

• 16:42Speaker 03

  And then it was definitely like solidified on our one-on-one. We spent the whole day together. And I was like, okay, I can really see myself with this person. And you always have to ask yourself, like, is this bubble of, is this just infatuation because we're in like this romantic setting and we're getting, you know, all this incredible treatment and you're literally in a fairy tale. So it's easy to fall in love or fall hard in that situation. But even with all of that, like knowing that was in my head, thinking about it, I still felt like, no, this is real.

• 17:18Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, like you knew if we step outside of this, I still feel like no matter, if anything, like there's a chance you were excited to get out of that to like live real life.

• 17:27Speaker 03

  For sure. By the end, yeah.

• 17:28Alex Cooper?

  Right? Obviously, your guys' season ended pretty unconventionally. You got the final rose, but Matt didn't propose. How did you feel about that decision?

• 17:39Speaker 03

  So, you know, like I said, at first engagement wasn't even.

• 17:45Speaker 03

  In the back of my mind, like I just wasn't even thinking that was ever something that would happen to me. But then I think when we finally told each other, we were falling in love with each other on our one on one, I was like, all right, this could be a very big possibility now. So it's definitely something that I have to think about. But it was one of those things where it felt like it was out of my control because I still, I wasn't the one handing out roses at the end of the day. So it was one of those things where I told myself, like, if we do make it to the end of this, and he proposes to me, of course, I would say yes. The proposals on The Bachelor

• 18:25Speaker 03

  are just interesting because I think you've seen plenty of couples, I think you've seen plenty of couples re-propose and say like, this is the actual engagement. And I'm not saying that the engagements aren't real on the show. But I think now, having been through it all, it would be so crazy to get engaged with someone you barely knew. And you've only known each other for a few weeks. And so I was totally okay with that. We had a conversation off camera about not getting engaged. I knew that was coming. I didn't know if the show would convince him that he needed to

• 19:04Speaker 03

  do it, or that he realized he should do it. So I told myself, like, if it were to happen, I would say yes. But I didn't expect it to happen.

• 19:15Alex Cooper?

  So you were like, fully on the same page, like, it's okay if he doesn't propose, like, if anything, you're having conversations off camera. And he, did he come to you and be like, hey, I, like, what was that conversation like?

• 19:26Speaker 03

  So that was during Fantasy Suites. That's like, the most time you get off camera. So we were just talking about what that final day would look like. And I think that we were both worried about production having like, little tricks up their sleeve, which ended up, you know, us not getting our final date and

• 19:50Speaker 03

  I remember Chris Harrison showing up to my door telling me that Matt's really confused and he doesn't want to see me. And at first I'm laughing because I'm like, this is so you guys, this is not him. But then I have a meltdown because I'm like, well, whoever it is, I don't get my last date now. And, you know, we don't get like our last moment together before all of this ends. And now I'm going into this proposal, feeling terrible and feeling very insecure and just weird about the whole thing. Like, it was a really heavy feeling on the day.

• 20:23Speaker 03

  But I knew, yeah, I mean, as soon as he said he couldn't propose, it was one of those things where I was like, not disappointed, but I just was thinking like, okay, you're not proposing, but are we still going to be together? I guess I was like, what's true, what's not true? Are you about to break up with me? Are you about to like, are we about to not be together? Or do you still want to be with me? So then when he was like, I still want to be with you. I want to try this out in the real world. I was excited. But the rest of the felt like they were literally breaking down the set as we were still doing like our final, they were done. They were like,

• 20:56Alex Cooper?

  Stop.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  Waste of a seat. Yeah, they were just, it felt like a failure, like, because they didn't get an engagement out of it.

• 21:04Alex Cooper?

  I'm dying. They're literally breaking it down. They're like, fuck you guys. We wanted him down on one knee. But what I do like, I think a lot of people respect about that is like, we've all seen like people on social media now and everything is like, less romanticized as maybe it was back in the day because of social media. And we get kind of like glimpses behind the scene of like, what actually reality TV is not. So reality moments. But I do think there was a level of respect, maybe people had of like, wow, if anything, maybe that means he and her will actually work out because they're literally going to do even more work off camera now, rather than, we have seen couples be like, yay. And then they like, don't even last two weeks past it. So I think that there was a sentiment of like, maybe he

• 21:47Alex Cooper?

  is more real for making that decision in the beginning.

• 21:51Speaker 03

  Well, that's what I thought at the time. Like, when we're having that conversation off camera, I'm thinking like, wow, he's so level headed. And I love the idea of like, Us one day getting engaged for us and not for an audience and not for people that like won't care in a week or two.

• 22:05Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, obviously then you guys film and then as the show was airing, some controversial photos of you came to light and during the final episode, Matt basically made it pretty clear like he was gonna take a step back from the relationship. What was really going on with you guys?

• 22:23Speaker 03

  I think that he felt so much pressure with just how the state of the world was, or the state that the world was in at the time with Black Lives Matter. And that was the year after George Floyd and it was like just such a heavy,

• 22:42Speaker 03

  heavy topic in our country at the time. And then of course, all of the controversy within the show did not help. And I think he felt so much pressure to just make the right decision and to stand by what was right for him at the time. And you know, strangers and people that were really close to him in his life were saying like, I don't think you should be with her. And so I think at the time, he thought that was the right decision, just to take a step back and yeah, not, not be together.

• 23:20Alex Cooper?

  How did you feel about all that and like, how was it articulated to you?

• 23:24Speaker 03

  It hurt because it felt like he was doing it for others and not for himself. It felt like he didn't want to not be with me and he did want to be with me. But he just felt so much pressure from everyone

• 23:39Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 23:39Speaker 03

  to not be with me. And so even to this day, like, I think a lot of people have a lot of opinions on that, like what was the right decision, if he should have stood by me or not. And I never held that over his head. I never will hold that over his head because I don't know how he felt in that situation and I never will understand. And I know that he thought he was making the right choice and the right decision and I'll stand by him, you know, forever with that. That was okay.

• 24:14Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  As much as it hurt.

• 24:17Speaker 03

  It was, yeah, one of those things where I'm like, you know what? You do need to do what's best for you in this situation and I understand.

• 24:23Alex Cooper?

  So you guys end, but was it like, we're gonna take a break, but we're still gonna talk? Were you guys like completely done? Like, did you think this relationship is completely over? Like, what were the next steps after that kind of ended?

• 24:36Speaker 03

  So I was definitely shocked when he broke up with me, only because we were very happy together. Even with all of the chaos around us, when it was just me and him behind closed doors, it was amazing. It was so much fun. We were so happy when we decided to not let the outside noise get to us.

• 25:01Speaker 03

  So, I don't know. It was one of those things where we broke up and he said, "We're broken up." But we did still talk like every single day. I think we went like a few days without talking at first when we first broke up.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  And then after that, it was one of those things where we just started slowly speaking again. And it was one of those things for me where I was like, are you happy? Like, are you happy with this decision? Like, do you think that you'll be okay moving forward without, you know, at least just seeing if this is real? Like, we both think it is? Yeah. And, um, yeah, we slowly just started talking again. And I think after the final episode aired and

• 25:50Speaker 03

  there was a big group that was mad that we weren't together. Like, there was, of course, the people that were like, you know, "Good job, yes, shouldn't be with her." But then there was this group after the finale, because there was a lot of speculation, but no one was 100% sure if we weren't together or not until he said on the show. So I think when we saw how many people were like, "You should just be together." Like, what the heck?

• 26:17Speaker 03

  I think we both had to sit down and have this conversation of like, okay, let's put all of this outside noise aside. Let's put everyone aside. What do we want?

• 26:25Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 26:26Speaker 03

  Like, how do we feel? And we just came to the conclusion that we really do love each other and we really do want to make this work, or at least give it a chance. Like, let's give it a fair chance, even with all the craziness. And we did, and it was great, even with, I mean, I think that first year was hard, but...

• 26:44Alex Cooper?

  I was gonna say, like, I think I remember, like, seeing things on, um, Me Chronically Online, Reality Steve. I'm like, how do I even know that name? But I remember, like, when you guys were kind of in what seems like this in-between, like, I was gonna ask, like, were you talking to other people? Was he talking to other people? Like, did you guys have an agreement, like, it's okay if we hook up with other people?

• 27:09Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:09Alex Cooper?

  Like, what was the...

• 27:10Speaker 03

  We never really discussed that, I think. Like, I was, I was barely getting out of bed, let alone dating other people. Like, I was just so not okay, and I just wanted to be with him to where dating, that was just, like, so out of the question for me. Like, that wasn't even a thought I had in the back of my mind. And I felt like when we were talking,

• 27:35Speaker 03

  we never discussed it, but I felt like things that he said and, you know, us talking every day, it seemed like he wasn't either. But that was not the case. He definitely was, and that's okay, because we were broken up. I just wish I knew.

• 27:50Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  Because I found out, I found out via Reality Steve. Well, he contacted my, um, well, now she's my sister-in-law, but she, or Reality Steve contacted my brother's girlfriend at the time, and she told me. Um, and I was with Matt.

• 28:09Alex Cooper?

  What did he say?

• 28:10Speaker 03

  So, he basically said that there was a girl that reached out to him, saying, like, you know, Matt and me have been speaking. He's been trying to get me to come over and hang out, and um, I just saw that him and Rachel were seen together in New York when he was literally just trying to hang out with me, like, two days prior, and I don't think she knows, so I just want her to know. And so I was given that information, and I was just, I was really, really upset, just because I felt like...

• 28:42Speaker 03

  It was definitely kept a secret from me. He technically didn't lie because I never asked. But at the same time, I never would have. Well, maybe he did lie a little bit. Now I'm trying to think about it. Maybe there were some lies in there. Because I was very, very, very upset when I found everything out. And I just remember telling him that he lied to me.

• 29:02Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 29:02Speaker 03

  So with all of that, I just remember storming out of his place. And I was like, don't ever talk to me again. Like, we're done. Because I just found out a lot of stuff all at once. And yeah, I just was definitely a little bamboozled, for sure. So then, like, we go another week without talking. And long story short, he ends up being in Atlanta for work. And I'm at my friend's apartment. And the hotel they put him in is right next to my friend's apartment. Like, we could throw a rock at it, you know? And yeah, I think he saw my location. He saw I was like, literally 100 feet from him. And he was like, I understand you probably don't ever want to talk to me again.

• 29:47Speaker 03

  But can we meet just so I can apologize? And just, you know, share my side of things? And I said yes. And we sat in my car. I wouldn't let him come up to her apartment.

• 30:01Alex Cooper?

  Classic.

• 30:02Speaker 03

  So I met him downstairs and we sat in my car and talked for like six hours, just sitting in the parking garage. And, you know, he explained everything. I heard him out. And it was just one of those things where he was like, just give me a chance. I'm sorry, and I do love you, and I do want to be with you. And I'm done, you know, playing these games. Like, let's give this a real shot. Let's get back together. So I said, okay. I gave him the chance because I loved him.

• 30:34Alex Cooper?

  When you got back together, coming off of that, coming off of the dynamic on The Bachelor, like, did you have a hard time trusting him?

• 30:46Speaker 03

  Thousand percent. So I told myself like, he has a lot to move on from with me and then I have a lot to move on from with him. So we both need to decide like if we really do want to be together, we need to forgive and move on. And I think that's a lot easier said than done. I just was really insecure the first year of our relationship. I think it was

• 31:17Speaker 03

  everything that happened, of course, but also that power dynamic, like him being the lead of, you know, a dating show and me just being a contestant. And yeah, I felt like there was always that, that just not imbalance of power, but it definitely felt like he was like the star and I was just, you know, his little like groupie or something. And it's not like anything he did. It was just, I think that probably every couple that comes from the show might have a little bit of difficulty in that area of like, you know, you were this

• 31:57Speaker 03

  person that forty women were fighting over and that everyone's obsessed with. And then I'm just, you know, some girl. That's how it felt. And so, and then even, yeah, going out publicly, it seemed like I told myself that the world hated me, that everyone hated me, but everyone loved him. And so I feel like when we would go out, it'd be like, oh, Matt James and Rachel, like, I don't know. And I don't know if that was in my head or not, but that's just how it felt. So I definitely felt, and it was one of those things where I'm like, he could get anyone, he could have anyone, like, why is he with me? And so when he would go do things without me, I'd be like, there's probably like someone hotter and cooler and more fun than me hitting on him right now. And like, why is he even with me?

• 32:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, just really, really insecure. I felt like

• 32:49Speaker 03

  I had a hard time trusting him because of what was happening when we were apart.

• 32:54Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  And that girl coming to reality, Steve and everything, I was just like,

• 32:58Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 32:58Speaker 03

  asking myself like, are you still doing this? But I know to this day, like, and I even see this online now, he's not a cheater. You know, he, I never actually had to worry about him cheating on me because technically if he was ever with other women, we were apart. So I can't, you know, call him a cheater or worry about him cheating on me.

• 33:20Alex Cooper?

  Was that the only time that you guys were apart and he was with another woman or was there?

• 33:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:24Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 33:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:25Alex Cooper?

  So the whole, so from your understanding, the four years of your relationship, he was faithful to you?

• 33:30Speaker 03

  Yes. I think I see a lot of that right now because I reposted a funny video on TikTok of like some girl, I don't know, doing something to her best friend's ex-boyfriend. So now everyone's thinking that.

• 33:42Alex Cooper?

  There was.

• 33:42Speaker 03

  But that was before we even broke up, so.

• 33:45Alex Cooper?

  So the first year was difficult, but then there's three years to come that, and again, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but like seemed like you guys were so happy. Every time I opened Instagram, you guys were in a new city or a new country. And you were trying different foods and you were, you know, being thrown into these beautiful other cultures and experiences. And it just felt like you guys were on this whirlwind together. Like, how did that lifestyle of just constantly going and traveling together feel?

• 34:17Speaker 03

  I think at first it was so, it was so fun. Like I, I couldn't believe that my life was what it was. You know, I just went from being this normal person to going on this crazy dating show, actually falling in love, being with the guy, and then we're doing these really fun experiences that I would have never done otherwise. So it was so much fun, um, even through like all the insecurities and everything. But I think for the first like two years, it was just fun dating, not really too worried about like a proposal and marriage.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  I mean, we definitely always had those conversations, but I don't think either of us were in a rush yet. Like, I think those first few years, it felt like a normal relationship.

• 35:10Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 35:11Speaker 03

  You know, when you.

• 35:14Speaker 03

  I think in like the real world, dating for a few years without a proposal or marriage is normal. Yes. So that's what we were both telling ourselves, like, we just want to have the most normal relationship possible because it definitely started out very unconventionally and it still is crazy just having, you know, strangers care about your relationship. It's great sometimes, but yeah, other times it's a lot. So it was just, um, really not, it was, I hate saying it wasn't too serious. Yeah. But it was just more fun and really getting to know each other and just dating.

• 35:53Speaker 03

  And then I think like last year, the, our third year, well, I guess that was two years ago now, yeah. So I guess our third year of dating was when I started to just ask like, okay, so where is this going? Like what? I didn't ever want a timeline of things. I never wanted to know like when a proposal was coming. I think like some girls these days, like they want to know when it's coming, they want to pick the ring out, they want to pick their outfit out. And I always told him like, I don't want to know anything. I want to be so shocked, so surprised. But I do want to know that that's where your head's at and that we're on the same page. So.

• 36:38Speaker 03

  And what would he say? He seemed like he was on the same page. Like, that's why it's. Trying not to cry. It's okay. It was like, just confusing to look back on now because when we would talk about things, he always seemed like he was on the same page privately and publicly. You know, whether we were doing interviews or whether he was replying to people in comments, like talking about. Getting married and everything like that. So yeah, I guess it's just hard to think about. It's just one of those things that you replay a lot over and over again.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Because the words were there and you know, us talking about taking the next steps, all of that was fine. But you know, the actions obviously weren't there.

• 37:36Alex Cooper?

  I was gonna say like, from my understanding, obviously you spent four years together, but you never lived together?

• 37:44Speaker 03

  No, so like, that was another thing. He said that he didn't want to live together until we were married. And he's a very religious man. So I was like, that's okay, I can do that. But at the same time, I'm a little confused because we're still, you know, traveling together, staying in the same hotel. And, and it was like we were living together, like half of his stuff is still at my place in Georgia right now. Um, but he always had an apartment in Miami or New York. So we were either in New York, Miami, or in Atlanta. And I think at the time, I just didn't worry about it too much because it was fun.

• 38:26Speaker 03

  I feel like whenever we would talk about our life, we would say like, we want multiple homes anyways, like to be, or just, you know, Yeah. A little space here and there, like a home, home somewhere. But it'd be fun to have, to keep the apartment in Miami or keep the apartment in New York. And so I think that I was making excuses for it because it was one of those things where

• 38:50Speaker 03

  we were saying that that was gonna be our life anyways. So I guess I just didn't think too much on it. But I also think it was me trying to justify it, just because I didn't want to worry like, well, is this like fear of like, you know, taking the next steps? You know, of course you don't want to admit that to yourself.

• 39:08Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 03

  So now, yeah, looking back on it, maybe that's, is what it was, but.

• 39:13Alex Cooper?

  Did you have?

• 39:16Alex Cooper?

  Any friends or your family be like, Rachel, how are you guys not living together yet?

• 39:21Speaker 03

  No, only because.

• 39:23Alex Cooper?

  The religious.

• 39:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, it was like, we basically did live together, at least in Georgia. It was like our house, like that's where home base was for us, I would say, like, that's where most of his stuff was, that's obviously where all my stuff is, and whenever we weren't traveling, that's where we would be.

• 39:41Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  So it did feel like we were living together, but at the end of the day, it was my place. I don't know, yeah, so it was just one of those things where looking back, probably, that was probably a red flag, but I just tried to tell myself that it was okay.

• 39:56Alex Cooper?

  When you say that you guys talked about engagement, do you mind sharing, just like, how detailed did you guys get? Like, did you talk about how many kids? Did you talk about where you, like, can you share?

• 40:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, I honestly think we talked about family and kids more than anything, which is like,

• 40:18Speaker 03

  that sucks more than anything, I think, because I think when you picture your life or you have an idea of what it's gonna look like, and now I'm like, I have no idea what life looks like from here on out, and yeah, it's sad to,

• 40:37Speaker 03

  like, think about these, I'm trying not to laugh at myself, but like, yeah, I'm like picturing these kids that are obviously like, no longer a thing, which like, kind of sounds crazy, I'm not trying to sound like an insane person, but.

• 40:51Alex Cooper?

  You don't sound crazy.

• 40:53Speaker 03

  That's, yeah, that's probably like, one of the saddest things about it is

• 40:59Speaker 03

  just picturing your life with someone and thinking like that is how your life's gonna look, and then now it's just all taken away. But. Yeah, we we talked about rings. He told me a few months ago to start, you know, saving some things, picking things out, or that we should go look at some. And that was a big deal, I would say, for him to say. That's when I was like, wow, OK, he really is like on board with this. Like, that was such a a green flag to me. And I felt like the longer we were together, the more he was able to talk about it. And I think at first,

• 41:40Speaker 03

  I could tell it was something that did scare him a lot, or it was like a really hard thing for him to to talk about. And it just seemed easier and easier as our relationship went on. So I felt like that was a good sign.

• 41:51Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 03

  And, yeah, I don't know. I just, I think when he started talking about kids and picking out a ring and wedding food and where we want the wedding, like, stuff like that.

• 42:07Speaker 03

  I used those things to just hold on, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know if there were any actions following those things, but when you're told these things, you you just like want to hold on to them.

• 42:20Alex Cooper?

  When you look back at those conversations, do you see any like patterns or themes of like when he would engage in it? Like, was it when you were like, you know what I mean? Like, was there any, like, him engaging, being like, I want you to be the mother of my children. Like, I want to have a wedding. Like, do you? Did you ever see a pattern?

• 42:41Speaker 03

  I definitely would. I'm sure I would bring it up more. But it wouldn't ever be in like a pressure kind of way. It would just like come naturally in a conversation, but

• 42:57Speaker 03

  he seemed more than happy to to talk about things, too. And I I don't know, it wasn't like a pattern of.

• 43:07Speaker 03

  I think for, at the end of the day, when I think about things like the words were there, but the actions weren't.

• 43:12Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 43:13Speaker 03

  Like, they, they weren't matching. So he would say these things, but then, okay, well, what are we, what are you doing to get this, if that makes sense? Like, what are we doing actively to have an engagement and plan a wedding and all of this stuff? You know, like you said that we can go look at rings, but okay, is that gonna happen? You know, because it was one of those things where I was like, okay, you said that, but I'm gonna see, I'm gonna let him bring it back up if he meant it, you know?

• 43:45Alex Cooper?

  That's tough. Because from what I'm hearing from you too, it's like you're again, kind of like waiting for him to engage in some capacity and it's like kind of on his terms. And it's, I'm like that, I'm, that's really hard. I'm sorry. Because it's hard to break then that pattern of like when someone is kind of the one in control, to get to just feeling like we're in a partnership and it's not me kind of like tiptoeing and seeing if you're interested, like it's hard to break that cycle.

• 44:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's just, it's, it's such a weird thing to begin with because at the end of the day, like, it's mostly men who propose.

• 44:26Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  Like, it's, of course, different for everyone these days, but

• 44:31Speaker 03

  everyone's like, yeah, she's on his timeline, she's on his timeline. And I'm like, sitting here, I'm like, what am I supposed to do? Like, I don't know. It, it's one of those things where at the end of the day, he's the one that needs to get down

• 44:41Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  on a knee.

• 44:42Alex Cooper?

  I think in a beautiful way, and this is what, I know we're about to get there, but like, just cutting to the other side of it for you is like, I've been there where I felt the same exact way, where I was like, we, he talks about the house in Westchester with me and we're like together, but I still like, nothing has happened yet. Like, I can tell you now, having a partner, that it does feel super like 50/50 and everything with my husband, like, I wasn't surprised at all when

• 45:22Alex Cooper?

  Oh my god, his name is Matt too. When Matt, but like when Matt would like bring things up about future or like let's go ring shopping together. Like where in previous relationships I was and I think I recognized because I had never had it, which I'm like hopeful for you to experience of like. It was, we were so in lockstep that I could have gotten down on one knee, you know what I mean? And like I, like, so I think I get what you're saying and I think a lot of women experience this where like we condition ourselves to believe like. It was his decision at the end of the day and I think unfortunately like that's not how it should be. Yes, the gesture for him physically getting on the knee is so romantic and fun.

• 46:07Alex Cooper?

  But like you should still have a say in whether it's gonna happen or not and not have to wait for someone.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:14Alex Cooper?

  To do that for you.

• 46:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:15Alex Cooper?

  And I think a lot of women are gonna be sitting, listening to this interview being like, fuck Rachel, like. There may be women listening to this that are realizing right now, Rachel, like they're in the same situation as you is like. He keeps saying these things, the words are there, but the actions aren't.

• 46:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:29Alex Cooper?

  Um, I'm curious, like, over the course of your relationship, we're talking about engagement, we're talking about a wedding. Did Matt ever express any doubts about your guys' future together?

• 46:42Speaker 03

  I think there were times in our relationship where.

• 46:49Speaker 03

  I don't want to say he seemed scared, but I think that he felt the weight of marriage really heavily on him. And I think that's for him to discuss, like, why he felt like that. Um, I never knew if it was because there was something wrong with me or like not wrong with me. I keep trying to tell myself that there's nothing wrong with me, even though like, of course it feels like it sometimes, but.

• 47:18Speaker 03

  I asked myself, like, is it me or is it him? Like, is it something that he needs to figure out? You know, is there something that scares him? Is there something that he went through growing up that, you know, he has this trauma now? Or am I just not like his perfect person? Um, so I would just say.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  I still don't know. I think like time will tell and I think that he'll have to

• 47:51Speaker 03

  answer that and figure that out, but.

• 47:54Alex Cooper?

  Obviously, every couple like has their problems, like no couple is perfect. For you and Matt, like what would typically trigger an argument?

• 48:07Speaker 03

  We really didn't

• 48:10Speaker 03

  argue a lot. When we would argue, it would more so be like someone did something to piss the other person off. And then

• 48:24Speaker 03

  I don't know, it was like we both, I guess we were both pretty stubborn. So we both thought that we were in the right and that they were in the wrong. And we just had a hard time seeing eye to eye sometimes. Like I was always trying to remind him. Sorry, I was always trying to remind him

• 48:43Speaker 03

  that we are on the same side and the problem is the problem. Like we're, we're arguing like this when it should be like, okay, we're a team. Here's the issue. How can we fix this together? It was either that or it was just acting out of

• 49:04Speaker 03

  like in the moment, acting out of anger and not meaning things. So then it was one of those things where I was like, okay, if we're ever annoyed or irritated, let's just, you know, take a breather. Let's not talk for a second and really try to figure out what the actual problem is, like where this anger is stemming from and then we can discuss it.

• 49:24Alex Cooper?

  Was there someone in the relationship that would like apologize first more often?

• 49:30Speaker 03

  This is what's crazy is I feel like I was apologizing a lot, even if I was the one that was mad about something. We would sit down and I'd be like, I'm annoyed about this. And then at the end of the conversation, I would be the one that would be saying sorry. And I started feeling crazy, but.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  At the end of the relationship, he basically said that I have a hard time taking accountability and apologizing. And I'm sitting here, I'm like, I'm going crazy because I feel like I do say sorry a lot. For things that I'm not even like sure what I'm saying sorry for, you know? But that's, maybe that was his argument that I wasn't understanding. I think that we just had

• 50:16Alex Cooper?

  No, Rachel.

• 50:17Speaker 03

  Hard times, understanding where we were each coming from. And now I still feel crazy, you know, I'm like

• 50:23Alex Cooper?

  I, first of all, you're not crazy. And what you just said, one of my really close friends just went through where she was like, I'm always the one having to take accountability. And he's getting so mad at me if like, I don't own it, but I'm like, we put like,

• 50:36Speaker 03

  But like, am I, like, yeah, why am I

• 50:38Alex Cooper?

  I didn't do anything.

• 50:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:39Alex Cooper?

  We're in this fight because you did this and somehow I'm upset and then I'm having to, that's like, that's not healthy. That's not fair to you because when you look back, why do you think you were so quick to take accountability and arguments, even if it wasn't your own problem?

• 50:57Speaker 03

  Because he was just so like adamant that

• 51:03Speaker 03

  I have a hard time like admitting I'm wrong or taking accountability. And so when your partner is telling you those things, like you want to believe them, you want to be like, okay, if this really is like a problem I have and something that you're really upset about, then of course, like I want to try to do what I can to fix that. But yeah, it's, it's, I don't know. I don't know if I'll ever know.

• 51:31Alex Cooper?

  The feeling of leaving an argument and not feeling like you both won, there is no winning. It's like, oh God, we, like you kind of said, like, we came together and we solved that together. Like, how did you feel a lot of times when you would apologize? Like, and then you walk away from that situation after like the 50th time, like, did it start to weigh on you?

• 51:52Speaker 03

  Um, I would say it didn't weigh on me in the sense that it made me angry, but it almost

• 52:01Speaker 03

  Worried me that he was gonna leave me or break up with me, or that I wasn't good enough.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  I think like when you're told that you're the one in the wrong, then you're like, okay, so what can I do to be better? Or be a better partner?

• 52:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, now, looking back on it, you have to, I have to ask myself, like, was it deserved or not? I don't know, but yeah, it was one of those things where I went into the conversation irritated with him. And then I leave the conversation like hoping that he's not irritated with me and that I'm sorry and I want him to not be mad at me. Like, you start to lose your mind a little bit.

• 52:52Alex Cooper?

  Let's talk about the breakup.

• 53:10Alex Cooper?

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  postpartum, or looking for everyday trusted daily gut support, get clinically studied biotics to support your gut health with Ritual. My listeners can save 25% off their first month at ritual.com/callherdaddy. That's ritual.com/callherdaddy for 25% off your first month. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. From what we can see online, when your relationship ended, you were in Tokyo together. What was the state of your relationship when you were going into that trip?

• 55:55Speaker 03

  It was great. I mean, we were literally talking about engagement, marriage, all the things on that trip. We had been together since, I think it was like January 3rd, I met him in London. So we were in London, having a great time. And then we went from London to Tokyo, just because.

• 56:20Speaker 03

  We had the time and we had these like flight vouchers that were expiring um for like an international flight and Japan is like my favorite country in the entire world. So we were like, let's just do it while we can. So it was very unplanned, um very last minute trip, but it was fun, exciting, you know, everything was great. There was nothing wrong.

• 56:44Alex Cooper?

  Um, so, okay, so we're in Tokyo, everything's going fine. What happens?

• 56:50Speaker 03

  So it's, it's just so hard to grasp because I still, I don't even know if like, he knew it was coming, like, or if he, or if it was like he at the moment, I don't know. So everything was fine. The night before, we didn't have an argument, but I was feeling very overwhelmed. I was like trying so hard to find like a good dinner spot for us because the spot we ended up wanting to go to was closed or something. So we were scrambling. And I was putting so much pressure on finding a good spot because he cares. Like this is

• 57:33Speaker 03

  like his career, you know, like going to good food spots.

• 57:38Alex Cooper?

  Oh, so he would do like a review if you guys got there of like food?

• 57:42Speaker 03

  Any, anywhere we'd go, if it was good, like literally every single meal that we would have, we were filming. So yeah, I think I just put so much pressure on myself to find good spots if I'm the one that's finding a spot. So on top of that, I just started my period. I felt terrible, like just was having like a rough few hours, I guess. And I remember asking him to help me find a spot. And he was like,

• 58:13Speaker 03

  You know, no, like, I, I think he was like doing something else on his phone. He was like, it doesn't matter where we go. Like, we can go literally anywhere, just like pick somewhere. I don't, he kept saying like, it's not a big deal. It doesn't matter. But I felt like it was a big deal and that it did matter. So we get to this place. It wasn't what I thought it was gonna be. Um, and it was just one of those things where I'm like, tired, cranky, emotional, on my period, feeling terrible, overwhelmed with looking for a dinner spot for like an hour. And then we get there and it was a disappointment. So then I started tearing up at dinner. Two tears, one, two, we're done.

• 58:51Speaker 03

  Didn't, you know, allow myself to get upset after that. Just tried to calm down. We went home and

• 58:59Alex Cooper?

  Did he say anything?

• 59:00Speaker 03

  No, didn't say anything. But in the past, if I have like a little meltdown like that, or if I'm feeling overwhelmed or anything, he just like lets me move through emotions, get it all out of my system and then, you know, okay, I'm ready to talk, like, something like that.

• 59:20Alex Cooper?

  So dinner, like, did you guys have like normal conversation?

• 59:22Speaker 03

  No, we didn't even, we didn't even talk. Like, we just sat there, had dinner, got into the Uber.

• 59:27Alex Cooper?

  Wait, Rachel, why did you feel so upset about like the menu not being good?

• 59:34Speaker 03

  I felt like whenever we would go somewhere and it was bad that I, it was just disappointing because I think like we're on trips, it's like every meal counts, like every dinner, every, everywhere we go, it counts. Or it just, it's important, um, because you, you know, only have so many meals in the day and this sounds crazy, but as like a food person, I'm trying to just make sure that he's getting good content for our trip and stuff, because I know like it's important to him and that it's something that we'll both post about.

• 1:00:15Speaker 03

  So I'm just feeling bad, I guess, that it was a bad spot. And then, um,

• 1:00:22Alex Cooper?

  Are you feeling like you're disappointing him?

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I guess, I guess, yeah, disappointing him or just, yeah, like, I think he was just like, what is the big deal? So we finally get to the hotel and I give him a hug and he, I could just tell, like, he was just like, you know, not very comforting. And I'm like, are you mad at me? And he was like, I'm just so confused, like, why you were so upset? Like, what was that? And I explained to him, I'm like, I felt like I had let you down. Like, I felt like that was disappointing. And I hate going to a place that isn't somewhere that like you could post about. I feel like it's a waste.

• 1:01:08Speaker 03

  And he just was trying to tell me, like, it's not that serious, like, it's not that big of a deal. But then he was concerned about me getting so upset. He was like, that was, like, there was no reason for you to get upset like that. And he found it concerning that I got that emotional, I guess. And so then I was, and he just was trying to express to me, like, if you get emotional about little things like this, like, what is going to happen in life when something really terrible happens? Like, how are you going to be able to react to things that are actually really scary or disappointing or sad?

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  And I think, like, I don't know, it just hurt to hear, because I'm like, I probably would react to things that are terrible in a sad way. Like, what do you mean? I don't know. It felt like I was being punished for crying. It was just so weird. I don't know. Still don't really know that whole situation. I just was really confused by his reaction.

• 1:02:12Alex Cooper?

  And in the past, like, how does Matt usually respond when you are upset?

• 1:02:17Speaker 03

  Um, he'll let me, like, he'll give me my space.

• 1:02:20Alex Cooper?

  Do you want space?

• 1:02:22Speaker 03

  No, no, I don't. I, like, want to be comforted, but for some reason, Matt always thought that I'd need space. And then we'd talk about after, even though I would tell him, like, I don't want you to, like, give me my space, because then I feel like I'm not getting any support, you know, or like comfort from you.

• 1:02:46Speaker 03

  But that was just something that he thought like he just needed me to calm down and then we would talk and everything would be okay.

• 1:02:55Alex Cooper?

  So this happens and then is literally the next day, the breakup?

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:03:01Alex Cooper?

  So you wake up the next morning, what are the vibes? Is he tense? Are you guys acting weird? Like, take me through that whole day.

• 1:03:10Speaker 03

  Everything was fine. Like, when we went to bed, he was saying like, it's okay, it's okay. So, um, I just let it go. He let it go. It was totally fine the next day.

• 1:03:21Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:03:22Speaker 03

  And I think it was one of those things where, I mean, literally a few days before, we're talking about how he

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  feels lucky to have me as a partner and that, you know, there's just like so many qualities that he loves that I have and that, you know, we see relationships with other people where they deal with a lot and um, are put up with a lot of things and he's like, it's just so nice that, you know, I just feel like very lucky that I can call you my partner. And that was so crazy to think like, that was like two days before the breakup.

• 1:04:06Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:07Speaker 03

  And that morning, everything was fine. We were in good moods. And I think it was one of those things where it was just a little

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  maybe a little arguments opened up a can of worms. So we were on the way to get some food and I was like scrolling through my phone, showing him a bunch of videos. I guess I was bothering him. I was annoying him. And he he didn't snap at me, but he basically was like, okay.

• 1:04:46Speaker 03

  Kind of snapped at me to where I got mad at him. Cause I was like, you know, even if I'm annoying you, like, don't treat me like that. And

• 1:05:00Speaker 03

  so then it seemed like we were both kind of like mad at each other or annoyed with each other. So when we got to this place, it was just this big market with a bunch of different food and everything. So we get there and I just walk off and go do my own thing for a second. Um, I'm picking up like chopsticks and things for my friends. And, um, he's going to find this like matcha spot that he was really excited to try. So we kind of just get there and split up for a little bit. Which wasn't, you know, normal, like usually we would be doing these things together.

• 1:05:34Alex Cooper?

  And how do you feel in that moment? Like, are you, do you have a pit in your stomach? Are you like, something's off?

• 1:05:38Speaker 03

  No, I just was like,

• 1:05:42Speaker 03

  I didn't think anything seri- like too much of it. I really didn't. I just was annoyed with him. That's all like, I was annoyed with him and he was annoyed with me. Like, it really didn't even seem like that big of a deal. It was just one of those things where you're just like, you know, at that point, we had been together nonstop for like three weeks. And I think like you just

• 1:06:02Speaker 03

  get annoyed with each other about little things. And I think that's where we were. We were just like irritated with one another with little things. But I didn't think anything of it. It just, it was what it was. And then we had some food. We got back in the car and I just was being really quiet. And he was like, you know, can I ask like why you're being so quiet? And I was like, I'm just, I feel like you're irritated with me right now. And I don't really like want to say anything if I don't have to say anything. Cause I just don't want to bu- bug you. Like, I just don't really want to chat right now. If there's nothing I have to say, cause I just want to try and like give you your space. Cause I feel like you're annoyed with me right now.

• 1:06:47Speaker 03

  And, um, that is just like what opened up everything and.

• 1:06:54Speaker 03

  We had gotten into an argument. Right then and there, like, walking in the street. We skipped lunch, we went back to the hotel. And just ended up having like a bigger conversation. I think that's what I was saying, like, can of worms where it wasn't a big deal. We were just a little irritated with one other. But then it was like, okay. Now that we're back here again, where like, you're annoyed with me, I'm annoyed with you. I feel like you're in the wrong. You feel like I'm in the wrong.

• 1:07:28Speaker 03

  He really just kind of let out everything that I guess he had been feeling for a while. I don't know.

• 1:07:38Alex Cooper?

  Can you share some of that?

• 1:07:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, he just.

• 1:07:44Speaker 03

  He said that at the end of the day,

• 1:07:49Speaker 03

  there were just qualities about me that he worries about having a wife. Like, at the end of the day, like, there are things that we aren't compatible with, and like, the whole accountability and saying sorry and all that was really the main thing.

• 1:08:10Speaker 03

  And, um, yeah, it was just one of those things where he, I think, just had this realization that I should want to propose to you by this time. Like, at this point in our relationship, I should be wanting those things. And I should be ready for that, but I'm not still. I still don't feel like we're ready, or I don't feel like I'm ready. Um, I don't know if I ever see myself proposing to you. I can't actually see myself married to you.

• 1:08:53Speaker 03

  He said that, you know, maybe one day he would get there, but he doesn't feel ready now. And I told him, I said, well, I feel like after four years, you should know, or you should feel ready. And if you don't, then that's not a good thing. We probably shouldn't be together if you don't feel like that after four years, because you know me better than anyone. I know you better than anyone. So you should know by now if you see this for the long haul or not. And

• 1:09:34Speaker 03

  it was just one of those things where it was like, do you want

• 1:09:39Speaker 03

  to make this work? Like, do you think that it's me? Or is it something with you? Like, are you scared? Or is it really me? Like, is is your perfect person somewhere out there? You know, is it not me? And yeah, he came to the conclusion that he didn't think it was me and

• 1:10:05Speaker 03

  that he, um, he said, like, he just didn't want me to end up resenting him by like wasting more of my time if it wouldn't happen. Um, and yeah, he just said, you know,

• 1:10:25Speaker 03

  you're, you're beautiful, smart and funny, and you'll find, you'll find someone, you'll find a guy that will love you for you. But yeah, he just didn't think that it was him. But it was just really,

• 1:10:40Speaker 03

  um, it's just a lot to hear at once, because a few days before, you know, I'm hearing the opposite.

• 1:10:49Alex Cooper?

  In that moment, Rachel, were you like vocalizing like anything in terms of like, why have you, why have you been so vocal? Like, I've seen him on podcasts and he's commented in random like fan accounts being like engagements coming soon. Like, he's been overly vocal more than you about like telling the world like, oh, it's coming, like it's coming, which like

• 1:11:18Alex Cooper?

  is a little odd. I'm not gonna lie. Like, in my opinion, I was like, like how much he was speaking about it. And yet, like, now what you're sharing for him to just like quickly be like, never mind, like, in that moment where you're like, then why have you been saying this? Why did two days ago, you say I was like, the perfect partner with you?

• 1:11:36Speaker 03

  I think because he,

• 1:11:40Speaker 03

  I think it's because he did love me or does really love me. And I think he wanted it to work out. And like, I think he wanted to picture it. And it was one of those things where it was like, well, it would definitely be easy to like, it just would make sense. And that was like the next steps naturally in our relationship. And he does love me to where I think he just wanted it to work. But I, I guess at the end of the day, like, as much as he wanted it to work and as much as he loves me, he still just doesn't think that I'm like the person for him. And so I think

• 1:12:21Speaker 03

  maybe he was just trying to see if he could get there or convince himself that it was the right thing. But yeah, I'm at the point now where I'm like, I still don't know. Like, I don't know if he reacted out of anger or spite, or if he didn't mean it.

• 1:12:40Speaker 03

  And to be totally honest with you, if he didn't post it so publicly, like right after he broke up with me, I don't even know. Where we'd be right now, because I think when someone tells you that to your face, like, I don't think you're my person. I don't ever picture us getting married. It's your time to walk away. Like, I can't stick around after that. Even if I want to, even if it's hard for me to let go and like, I love him so much and I wanted him to be my partner. But, yeah, I think when someone says that to you, it's like, what else?

• 1:13:14Alex Cooper?

  What else can you do?

• 1:13:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, you have to give it up at that point.

• 1:13:17Alex Cooper?

  When you were hearing him say all this to you, like, what was going through your head?

• 1:13:23Speaker 03

  Um,

• 1:13:25Speaker 03

  honestly?

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  I think like,

• 1:13:31Speaker 03

  I was worried that he thought that for a little while. Like, I guess in the back of my mind, I always wondered if he

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  had doubts or like, yeah, just had doubts about me being his, his person. And I only had those doubts because, you know, the actions, like I said, weren't following up with his words. So I'm like, I feel like I just want to be with someone who like, is so excited to be with me and wants to, wants to marry me and is excited to, you know, start a life with me. And I feel like it was definitely one of those things with him where

• 1:14:14Speaker 03

  I could feel like he was nervous. But I just always told myself he was nervous because of like how he grew up and he didn't want to end up like his father or just didn't want to like end up in like a broken home.

• 1:14:36Speaker 03

  And that he took it really, really seriously, which he would probably say the same thing that he just put so much weight on it because he never wants to do to his family what his dad did to them.

• 1:14:51Speaker 03

  But I also told myself that

• 1:14:57Speaker 03

  I think like sometimes that put like a hindrance on our relationship.

• 1:15:05Speaker 03

  And I always wondered like, is it me? Or is it something that like we need to like work through together?

• 1:15:13Alex Cooper?

  So at the end of this conversation, is it like, okay, so we're breaking up?

• 1:15:20Speaker 03

  It ended with him saying, you know, you're beautiful, smart, funny. You'll find someone. I'll never say a bad thing about you. And yeah, we're done. And I literally said, okay. I said, okay. Didn't say anything else. I just said, okay. And then I got my suitcase, went down to lobby, got in a car, went to the airport.

• 1:15:43Alex Cooper?

  Did you have a ticket?

• 1:15:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I had to leave a day before.

• 1:15:48Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:15:49Speaker 03

  Um, I was trying to make it home for a baby shower that I did not end up going to.

• 1:15:54Alex Cooper?

  He did this right before he knew you were having to go to the airport to fly from Tokyo to Atlanta.

• 1:16:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:16:04Speaker 03

  So that was, yeah, just, I just like couldn't believe it.

• 1:16:11Speaker 03

  Going to the airport, I was like, what the hell is happening? You know?

• 1:16:14Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. Like, were you in shock? Were you crying?

• 1:16:17Speaker 03

  Both, just like pure shock, so much confusion. Um, obviously sad because of everything he just said to me, very, very hurtful, which here's the thing, he's allowed to feel like that. If that's really how he feels, you're so allowed to feel like that. I wouldn't want someone to propose to me and be married to me just because they felt like they have to, even though they didn't feel like they wanted to. So at the end of the day, if that's really how he felt, then he is so valid to feel like that. And at least we figured that out before.

• 1:16:54Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 1:16:55Speaker 03

  We were married or anything.

• 1:16:56Alex Cooper?

  Also doesn't take away from the fact, Rachel, that like, it seems like you were completely blindsided.

• 1:17:00Speaker 03

  I mean, yes, I, it was definitely out of nowhere. I don't think he was planning on doing it. I think that it was one of those things where he just came to this realization in our, during our argument. I don't know.

• 1:17:14Alex Cooper?

  So we have to talk about his breakup post.

• 1:17:37Alex Cooper?

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• 1:18:18Alex Cooper?

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• 1:18:56Alex Cooper?

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• 1:20:17Alex Cooper?

  Because without a doubt, it is one of the weirder cryptic. I mean, people on the internet are like, this is, this is going to go down in history as like one of the weirdest Instagram breakup posts I've ever seen. Can you talk to me about like, where were you when you saw this post?

• 1:20:37Speaker 03

  Um, so I had just gotten to the airport. And, you know, checked my bags, everything, got on the flight.

• 1:20:46Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:20:47Speaker 03

  And I'm in my seat and for some reason, my phone, I think it's because I downloaded a VPN on my phone a few years ago. And now for whatever reason, it cannot connect to plane wifi.

• 1:21:01Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:21:02Speaker 03

  It just can't. I don't know why. So whenever I take these long flights, like I'm off the grid. So, um, we're literally getting ready to take off and my phone blows up. It's one of my best friends and it says Rach with a bunch of question marks. And as soon as I saw that, I'm like, oh my gosh, how does she know? And then she texts me again and said, I saw Matt's posts as this real life. And that's how I found out that he posted. So then literally the plane is taking off and I see his post.

• 1:21:37Speaker 03

  And that's it. I'm, I don't have any service or anything for like the next 12 hours. So I'm freaking out because, you know, just got broken up with and now few hours later, it's like for the whole world to see. And I'm still like trying to process it. Like I'm still in like total shock. So then knowing like the whole world is seeing this. I'm like, this is so crazy. I can't even wrap my mind around this right now. And I think that's why, you know, I didn't say anything.

• 1:22:18Speaker 03

  Still haven't like made a statement or anything because I'm processing this just like everyone else is. Like I'm a week out of this, you know?

• 1:22:29Alex Cooper?

  So how, what would you say like two hours after?

• 1:22:33Speaker 03

  I would say like, yeah, two or three hours.

• 1:22:35Alex Cooper?

  He posted that. When you read the post, what went through your mind? Like, what did you think of the post?

• 1:22:41Speaker 03

  Um, I don't know. I honestly didn't think, I guess I was so freaked out about the breakup itself and then just now knowing that I'm gonna have to navigate this very publicly.

• 1:22:55Speaker 03

  That's kind of all I was thinking. I wasn't even like analyzing the post like everyone else was.

• 1:22:59Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:00Speaker 03

  So I guess it was kind of funny just to see what people had to say. Like people thought it was weird that it was a bachelor photo because we definitely like tried to remove ourselves from the show.

• 1:23:12Speaker 03

  Um, and yeah, it was

• 1:23:18Speaker 03

  interesting to see the caption only because

• 1:23:24Speaker 03

  I feel like there was no.

• 1:23:29Speaker 03

  I don't know how to explain it. I guess it almost seemed like saying it like a prayer was the easier way to say it than to like say something like real. Not that

• 1:23:43Alex Cooper?

  No, but yeah.

• 1:23:44Speaker 03

  real, but just something like authentic to like our actual relationship.

• 1:23:52Speaker 03

  But it's very him. Like, I guess it didn't surprise me that he said it like that. I guess I was just surprised that he said it at all, that he posted that.

• 1:24:04Alex Cooper?

  Why do you think he posted that?

• 1:24:06Speaker 03

  I would love to know. I don't know. I don't know if it was out of just him being so worked up. If it was out of anger, or if it was one of those things where he felt like he needed to do it to really like finally just like put a nail in the coffin. But I have spoken with him since all of that, and I do know that

• 1:24:30Speaker 03

  he definitely acknowledges that that was not the right decision.

• 1:24:33Alex Cooper?

  The right decision. So, we're gonna get to that because I'm just thinking, one, was there any part of you on this 12-hour plane ride, one, that wanted to be like, sir, can I borrow your phone? Like, were you, I would have been like, like, just to even see, like, were you worried about what people were saying? Or no, you were just still like?

• 1:24:52Speaker 03

  Oh, no, I was worried. It's definitely, yeah, it was one of those things where maybe this ties into my insecurities from the very beginning, but I just felt like there was gonna be people like celebrating him breaking up with me. I don't know. I don't know. I definitely didn't think that. Or just like people just sad, just like, oh, like, so sorry for you guys, like, sad to hear this, but like wishing you both the best moving forward. I didn't expect it to be this, like, people getting mad about the posts like that.

• 1:25:24Alex Cooper?

  I mean, I'm not gonna lie, like, sitting here and listening to it, I know there's like different steps basically to like grieving a breakup, but I can't help but be

• 1:25:34Alex Cooper?

  mad for you because

• 1:25:38Alex Cooper?

  You guys have been together for four years. You've traveled many times together. That man knows that your phone doesn't work on wifi on long flights.

• 1:25:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I mean, it's like when I step back and really look at everything. I'm mad. Like, yes, that's fucked up. Like, he should not have done that to me after four years. Shouldn't have. Like, he didn't even text me to give me a warning, like, saying, like, hey, I'm posting this. So it just hurt to

• 1:26:10Speaker 03

  know that, like, that's how my friends found out and my family and, like, my little sister. And that I didn't even, like, get to talk to them about it or just, like, grieve privately for, like, a day, you know? So even, like, landing was just so scary, just like, the anxiety that came over me, knowing I was, like, about to get service back and I didn't know what I was about to see. And I just knew my phone was gonna be blown up from all my friends and my family and everything. So that hurt.

• 1:26:46Alex Cooper?

  What happened when you landed? Like, did you get an Uber home? Who did you go to first? Who did you talk to?

• 1:26:53Speaker 03

  Um, I landed and I did have my car at the airport, so I was driving home. And at this point, I think the post went up, like, 6:00 AM US time or, like, New York time, so

• 1:27:11Speaker 03

  I think I landed at, like, 6:00 PM, so it had been, like, all day. My friends were waiting to hear from me.

• 1:27:18Alex Cooper?

  Rachel.

• 1:27:19Speaker 03

  I got in my car and I just, like, did a voice memo and just let them know what happened. And, um, yeah, I just went home and, you know, by the time I got home, it was, like, 8 or 9 o'clock, so I just went straight to sleep because I was exhausted and when I'm depressed, I just, like, completely shut down and I just

• 1:27:42Speaker 03

  sleep and I don't get out of bed. So I did that.

• 1:27:44Alex Cooper?

  Did you text him? Like, what the hell? You didn't text him?

• 1:27:47Speaker 03

  No. No, I just...

• 1:27:52Speaker 03

  Felt like the best thing at the time was just to not talk to him. And because he didn't give me the decency to like, give me a heads up or

• 1:28:07Speaker 03

  even just give me a few days, like, it's one thing to, I don't even think you should post a breakup announcement the same day you break up.

• 1:28:18Alex Cooper?

  No.

• 1:28:18Speaker 03

  But let alone, you know, not even give me a warning that you're doing it. Um, so yeah, I just went home, slept for like, what felt like, you know, forty eight hours and then finally woke up to my sister coming in my room. She has a key to my house. So she like let herself in and like woke me up and hung out with me for like the next few days. And then

• 1:28:46Speaker 03

  I finally like told my friends I could see, I could see them and hang out with them. On Saturday was the first time I saw some of my friends, just because I just needed just to be by myself for a bit and just not talk about it or think about it. I just wasn't ready to like debrief and like, I think when you talk about it, it just feels more real. So I just wasn't ready to like, accept it, I guess.

• 1:29:21Alex Cooper?

  When breakups also happen, I think one of the biggest mind fucks is like, you're sitting there, you're laying in your bed, you're so upset and the one person that you like want

• 1:29:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:35Alex Cooper?

  to talk to is the person that just hurt you.

• 1:29:39Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:29:40Alex Cooper?

  Who reached out first and like,

• 1:29:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was so hard. I completely agree with that where it's like, I'm laying in bed and I want him to comfort me, but I'm, but he's the one that hurt me and I'm so mad at him. But I'm also still like so sad.

• 1:30:02Speaker 03

  And of course, like, I still love him. So, yeah, just a lot of emotions to work through. And

• 1:30:10Speaker 03

  I woke up like at one in the morning and I had a missed call from him.

• 1:30:15Speaker 03

  This was, I don't know, like, four, five days after, maybe, in the post.

• 1:30:23Speaker 03

  And so I called him back. Because I just didn't know why he was calling me. I didn't know if he was giving me a heads up about something, or if he needed something, or if he was just calling to talk. I didn't know. So I called him back just to see what he wanted. And he just asked how I was doing. Which I'm like, how do you think I'm doing? Like, what?

• 1:30:46Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 1:30:47Speaker 03

  Um, and then, yeah, I confronted him about the post. I said, like, you know, that really sucked. And that's when he was like, yeah, I fully admit that I could have handled this a lot better. And he apologized. And you know, sometimes people, when they're in a really bad state, or they're really, really angry, or really, really upset, you know, you make mistakes, or you don't handle things the best way you can. But I don't think that, I just, I don't want people thinking that like, he's this bad guy, or

• 1:31:33Speaker 03

  that he's like, not, I don't know, considerate of my feelings, or whatever, because he is a good guy at the end of the day. But obviously, he made a mistake doing that. But I think he knows that. And I think he regrets it. So, yeah, it's just hard because I'm like, I would, I probably wouldn't even be sitting here if you didn't do that.

• 1:31:52Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:53Speaker 03

  So it's just a lot to like, process and work through.

• 1:31:57Alex Cooper?

  Well, no, and I also just want to say, like,

• 1:32:01Alex Cooper?

  This is why social media is so confusing because on one hand, I agree. It's like, we probably wouldn't be sitting here if he didn't post that. But also, it's like, knowing that you are going to at one point have to speak. And I think we kind of like, we're talking about that before this of like, maybe it is nice to just like, sit down and even though it's still so fresh. Like, I think there's a chance you're gonna look back on this interview in a year, even six months and watch some of your responses and be like, oh my gosh, like, I didn't see it then. You know what I mean? Like, everyone has that, Rachel. Like, I've literally done that in every relationship I've ever been in, and so does everyone in the world. Like, you are still in this like, grieving period, clearly.

• 1:32:45Alex Cooper?

  And you're still, even like, understandably, like, the way that you're defending him, I'm not saying it doesn't, he doesn't warrant it. It's actually just like, when you're getting out of a relationship, you're still kind of in the relationship.

• 1:32:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:32:58Alex Cooper?

  Like, that you were together for four years. It's what been what? Two weeks? One week?

• 1:33:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:02Alex Cooper?

  Not even?

• 1:33:03Speaker 03

  Not even two weeks, yeah.

• 1:33:04Alex Cooper?

  Not even two weeks. So it's like, I think a lot of this is, on one hand, there's the part of that me feels bad of like, we're having this so fresh, that like, of course, you're not gonna have like, all the answers or the insight or whatever. But I do think hopefully this conversation is gonna like, alleviate you from, listen, Bachelor Nation is amazing. They're also very intense. And I feel like, every single thing you would type would get picked apart. Like, there was no, we talked about this. There wasn't gonna be like, a perfect Instagram post or caption or comment you could leave that would like, leave people feeling like they have an understanding. Not that they deserve it,

• 1:33:47Alex Cooper?

  but they feel like they do because of the way that your guys' relationship started so publicly.

• 1:33:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:54Alex Cooper?

  So I think it's this like, mixed bag of emotions.

• 1:33:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:57Alex Cooper?

  Um, when you were finishing like, that call with him, like, where did you guys leave it? Like, what did you say?

• 1:34:06Speaker 03

  We left it like, it's so weird. I was about to say like, I just wish we could somehow be friends, because he was my best friend and it hurts too. Not have him as my best friend anymore. But that's like how we left it. Like, we were just talking like everything was okay. You know, I asked him like how his last day was in Tokyo and like, you know, he filled me in on like what he he did and then.

• 1:34:41Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, we were we were just talking like, you know, everything was fine. And he ended up falling asleep because I called him back at like 1 a.m. because both of our jet lag was so crazy at the time. And yeah, he ended up like falling asleep and I just hung up and that's that.

• 1:35:01Alex Cooper?

  How long was the conversation?

• 1:35:02Speaker 03

  It was like, it was pretty long. It was like over an hour at least.

• 1:35:07Alex Cooper?

  Did you guys talk about like, are you gonna do no contact for a little bit or you?

• 1:35:12Speaker 03

  No, we didn't discuss that. I don't even, I think like that's something that we probably have to do.

• 1:35:20Speaker 03

  Um, we haven't talked a lot. Like, he's called me every like few days just to make sure I'm okay. But I told him that he didn't need to do that. The last time we spoke, I was like, you don't need to like call and check up on me like I'll be okay. And so that was, that was that. Um.

• 1:35:42Speaker 03

  But yeah, I don't know why he's, I don't know if he's feeling bad or he just wants to see where I'm at. I don't know.

• 1:35:51Alex Cooper?

  In your head right now, like if you're being really, really honest with yourself, do you think there's any chance you guys ever get back together?

• 1:35:58Speaker 03

  I don't think I can, which is sad.

• 1:36:03Speaker 03

  I don't think I can because

• 1:36:07Speaker 03

  I think when someone says those things that he said, you know, like, I don't think you're my person. I don't see us getting married. I think that's when you like have to call it quits. Um, and then, yeah, just the way that he handled all of this and his posts and everything like, I forgive him, but.

• 1:36:26Speaker 03

  I just don't think I can be with someone that I felt like he disrespected me at the end of the day doing that. So yeah, it's just one of those things where you like have to stand up for yourself, even if you don't want to. Like, of course, there's part of me that wishes that we could just get back together and pretend that none of this ever happened. But yeah, that's not the case. And I think as hard as it is, I think the right decision is to just stand up for myself and be on my own.

• 1:37:02Alex Cooper?

  I was gonna say, like, I'm so impressed by one, just like how you're handling everything, because I think, I think a lot of people listening right now understandably are gonna like dissect what you've been saying and they're going to judge certain things you've said. They're gonna try to analyze things you've said. I've even been trying to do it. I'm like, oh, I have an opinion on that and that. But then I'm also like, it's not my life. This is your life. And I also, again, recognize like, this is so fresh for you. I do just have to say, in the most painful way, and I don't think the way he did it was right. I do think

• 1:37:44Alex Cooper?

  you're gonna look back and you are going to be so fucking grateful that he posted. Not how he did it, not the way he did it, but the fact that he did it and put it out there. Because I think we all can feel it when there's love and when there's history and when there's not something huge that happened of like cheating or whatever. It's so hard not to go back. It is easier to go back than to stay away because it's your comfort. It's the person that you love. It's the person you've cried with. It's the person that you've envisioned having kids with and a life with and a marriage with and a wedding with and all the best things that come with life. You've pictured it with this person. You've

• 1:38:25Alex Cooper?

  spoken about it with this person. So the fact that you now have to be kind of just cut off from this, I do think it will be a blessing for you, Rachel, that like... You will look back and be like, I don't know anyone that maybe would have been as strong if, if that post didn't go up to not go back. You know what I mean? Cause like you said, you're like, I don't know if he did it in the heat of the moment. I couldn't really tell if we were really breaking up in that moment or if he was just angry. Like you do deserve someone that without a doubt wants to be with you and wants to start a life with you and wants to build a family and all the great things. And you're right, it doesn't make him a bad person, but just from like another woman sitting across from you,

• 1:39:08Alex Cooper?

  like why I said, like, it'll be interesting what you, if you look back on this in six months. It's like, there are a lot of things you're saying that as a girl sitting across from you, I'm like, babe.

• 1:39:21Speaker 03

  Stand up.

• 1:39:22Alex Cooper?

  You deserve so much fucking better. And it doesn't mean he has to be then deemed a dick. It's just like objectively, you deserve so much better. Like you annoying him or he not like all these little things that I know we're only getting like basically 1%. Understandably, you're not going to like share your whole relationship, but like you deserve so much better. And you should not have to feel like you're in doubt. You should not have to feel like you are second to him. And like, there's a power imbalance, like you shouldn't have to feel like that. And I know I don't need to like preach to you, but I just want you, I can tell it's hard right now.

• 1:40:00Speaker 03

  No, I mean, yeah, I completely agree with everything you're saying. Like I definitely have an attachment to him right now. I mean, how can you not when you spend, you know, every day with someone for four years straight? And I do love him so much, but yeah, it's just one of those things where maybe in another universe, we worked out and things were okay, but it just really sucks to like step back and look at how things ended up for us. It's just like heartbreaking.

• 1:40:32Speaker 03

  But yeah, I just think I, I do need to just stand up for myself and, you know, tell myself that what he did wasn't okay. And that I just need to try and move on.

• 1:40:42Alex Cooper?

  I also think like to everyone listening and even us having this conversation right now, like I almost started crying when you were like. Like those like children that we envisioned creating together like no longer will exist like it's devastating like it's absolutely heartbreaking but I also think when you get broken up with and you're forced to move forward I think you're gonna have a lot of beautiful reflection not even on that relationship but of yourself like even just like in the past almost two weeks like has there been anything that you looked at where four years is a long time like do you think there's any part of yourself that you

• 1:41:26Alex Cooper?

  compromised or you lost within that relationship because when you're in a partnership you do compromise?

• 1:41:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm sure um

• 1:41:36Speaker 03

  I think that's something that with time I'll start to realize but I think like when I have talked to my friends about it I think that they definitely said like it just seemed like you were always like giving a hundred and ten percent but it was difficult for him to like reciprocate it at times like it was like pulling teeth to try and get him to come to a wedding with me and just like little things like that and I love to think I'm this like you know like badass independent woman but I definitely

• 1:42:13Speaker 03

  would say that I like compromise my values at times cuz I felt like that was the right thing to do in the moment um

• 1:42:25Speaker 03

  it was definitely like you know he

• 1:42:29Speaker 03

  was like not the one in charge or anything but you know he definitely took lead and I just wanted to support him through everything whatever that was and I didn't mind you know letting him Have the spotlight, I guess, if that makes sense. That's poor wording, but.

• 1:42:50Alex Cooper?

  I know, I get what you're saying. Like, just to back you up there, like, a lot of what you've shared with me today is like, a lot of it's been on Matt's terms. It's like, if it's good for Matt, then you're being a supportive partner. But at what point is it like, what does Rachel want? And like, why don't you get to call some of the shots? And like, what would make you happy? And like, why are you having to beg him to do certain things? And then when he ever wants to do things, you're like, I'm ready to go. Like, I think that's where I can feel it. Every woman in America watching this is gonna be like, Rachel, I cannot wait. And I know this is so premature to even be saying, but like, you've said it to your friends before. We've all said it to our friends when they go through a breakup. And because I've lived it and you're about to live it, where it's like,

• 1:43:35Alex Cooper?

  you're gonna feel the difference when you meet a guy that is all about you and has no doubts. And it doesn't take away from what you Matt had, but like, you're, like he said, you are so beautiful and smart and interesting and you're like a great person. I can already tell. We just met. And I'm like, you're great. You're great. Someone's gonna be so lucky. And that is how you should feel in the relationship where it's like reciprocal, not you keeping like, wait, wait for me. Like, wait, what about that? Like, you deserve that. Everyone deserves that. Again, it doesn't make him a bad person, but maybe this is like the biggest blessing that needed to happen in order for you to finally find that partnership that is 50/50,

• 1:44:19Alex Cooper?

  where you do feel like you have a voice of value and you get to stand up for yourself in moments. Be like, hey, no, I don't need to take accountability, cuz why are we having this conversation? Cuz you made me upset over this. So, you know what I mean? It's like little things that will come and I'm still working on it and I'm married. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's tough, though. Why did you wanna speak on this today? I know I've spoken a bunch, but like, why did you wanna speak on this today?

• 1:44:45Speaker 03

  I feel like.

• 1:44:48Speaker 03

  Well, when you reached out to me, I, I just really thought about it and I felt like

• 1:44:58Speaker 03

  it needed to have a longer conversation than just, you know, a little story or a caption or there, it was just, there was so much to it and a lot to break down and I wanted to do this for me. I felt like I needed to do it to get some closure with everything. And I did want to do it for, you know, anyone else who cared. Like you said, like we did have a very public relationship and we did have a lot of people supporting us. And I know at the end of the day, like the only people who really matter in the relationship is you and the other person. But I did just, I saw all these rumors and the speculation and the theories and all this craziness.

• 1:45:39Speaker 03

  And I just wanted to get the true story out there and just share my side of it. In case anyone is going through anything similar, or if they just feel lost, confused, blindsided, anything. And if anyone can take something away from this, um, then, you know, I'm glad I came. But yeah, I just really wanted to do it just to help myself move on and get some closure. And I just feel like after four years and after all this craziness, something just needed to be said.

• 1:46:14Alex Cooper?

  No, I really appreciate you being so open because I'm aware, like if we had this interview even in like a year from now, I bet if I asked you these same exact questions, maybe 75% of the answers could be really different.

• 1:46:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:46:28Alex Cooper?

  Which is the beautiful part of life and time of you just being like, you're in it right now. You're in the grieving stage and slowly more things are going to become more apparent to you. And I really respect how thoughtful you're being about the way you speak about him. And I think Daddy Gang listening like. Once you go through a breakup, now you get to just fully focus on yourself.

• 1:46:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, I am excited for that.

• 1:46:53Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, and I know it probably feels weird a little bit because you've been in a partnership where for four years it's been like me and him, me and him. But now I think in a fun way, it's like taking this and knowing all the things of how he didn't make you feel good or when moments where you felt like shit, and then the good.

• 1:47:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:47:09Alex Cooper?

  And basically know like what you want next in a partner. I'm sure there's things that you're like, oh, I have to have that. And that had that one thing of whether he's funny or whether it's that, and you're gonna look for that. But then, let's be real, you got a list now of things that you're like, I will not put up with that in my next relationship, as you should.

• 1:47:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:47:29Alex Cooper?

  As you should. Um, is there anything else, just in terms of whether it was like rumors that you wanted to just like dispel that you've read? That you were like, wait, that's so not true, that you were like, should we just put an end to it?

• 1:47:42Speaker 03

  I'm trying to think, like, I've seen so much crazy stuff. I try not to look, but then when I realized we were doing this, I was like, okay, I definitely just want to see like what is being discussed. And I think the only thing that made me really sad reading was people saying that he cheated or that I insinuated that he cheated because he did not cheat. I don't think he ever cheated. I don't think that, you know, at the end of the day, he's at least a good enough guy to be faithful. Like, I never worried about that. And so I just don't want people thinking that he was this like unfaithful guy that, you know, broke my trust or cheated on me or anything.

• 1:48:21Speaker 03

  But it's also kind of fun to like tell myself that, you know, I can find myself again and get back to just, you know, loving me and finding my own confidence because I think it's been missing for four years. I'm not saying that's his fault, but there was probably a lot of stuff that I needed to work through from the show that I never have. So, yeah, I guess in a way, I'm just excited to work on myself.

• 1:48:49Alex Cooper?

  I also will say just girl advice.

• 1:48:55Alex Cooper?

  Don't let him keep coming back in. I so know what you mean by you want to be friends. Cause how can you envision a world, not only not him being your friend, but like without him? I get that.

• 1:49:07Speaker 03

  You're gonna make me cry.

• 1:49:08Alex Cooper?

  No, I know. I'm gonna cry. Cause we've all been there. It's like, it's unfathomable to be like, Matt's not in my life anymore. But what I will say is like, from experience, I feel like sometimes the person that ends the relationship has the guilt. Like there's guilt that, and he keeps calling you to check in. And unfortunately, it's gonna be on you to have to be like, one, he's moving on, right? But he's also checking in on you.

• 1:49:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:49:36Alex Cooper?

  It's gonna prolong you being able to actually be like, okay, I have to cut ties. And sometimes it does take no contact. Cause it's like, how can you have someone in your life that you did everything with? You loved all of it. And still be cordial while you're trying to move on? I don't, I don't think that, it doesn't mean you can't in a couple of years, like see each other out or at a bar and so be cordial and.

• 1:50:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:02Alex Cooper?

  But I don't think, in my opinion, I don't think friends, at least in the very beginning.

• 1:50:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:08Alex Cooper?

  Is gonna allow you, if we're being selfish for you for a minute, to move on.

• 1:50:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:11Alex Cooper?

  You gotta.

• 1:50:12Speaker 03

  No, and that's why I told him, I said, you know, you don't have to call me and check in on me. Like, I'll be okay. Um, cause yeah, I do agree. I think that, like even just hearing his voice on the phone, it's just really hard, you know? And it makes me miss him, but.

• 1:50:28Alex Cooper?

  I promise you the best part, and everyone that's gone through this, you know what I'm talking about, is like, you're literally like, no, I literally can't live without him. Like, how is my life gonna go on? Like, he's my best friend, he's my everything.

• 1:50:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:38Alex Cooper?

  And then, when you do no contact, all of a sudden, whether you're like, at the nail salon one day, or you're walking down the street, or you're at a friend's birthday party, or you're having a wine night with your girls, you're gonna like, smile to yourself and you're like, oh my God, I haven't thought of him in like, weeks. I haven't thought of him, or even if it's days. You know what I mean? Like, it's slow, wins, but then all of a sudden.

• 1:51:06Alex Cooper?

  You move on. So, thank you so much for coming on.

• 1:51:09Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:51:10Alex Cooper?

  You are such a sweet person and I'm really, really, really sorry that this happened to you. But, like I said, like, girl, girl, girl, we're getting back out there.

• 1:51:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:23Alex Cooper?

  It is only the beginning.

• 1:51:24Speaker 03

  Well, thank you for having me.

• 1:51:25Alex Cooper?

  Thank you.

• 1:51:26Speaker 03

  Appreciate it.

• 1:51:26Alex Cooper?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:51:42Alex Cooper?

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