Hospitality Series Pt. 3: Simon Kim on Breaking Steakhouse Rules, Redefining Fried Chicken, and Going Global!!

It’s part 3 of our series on restaurant hospitality, and this week Adrienne and Joe are joined by James Beard nominee Simon Kim, the man behind COTE Korean Steakhouse and COQODAQ. In this episode, we discuss: Reinventing the steakhouse by blending Korean BBQ with classic American fine dining Building COTE and COQODAQ and redefining what a modern restaurant can be Betting on yourself: overcoming investor doubt and financial pressure The role of the restaurateur as a “producer” behind the scenes Creating the perfect dining experience Balancing creativity with business realities in today’s restaurant industry What it really takes to scale a restaurant brand across cities and markets Walk-In Confession: Facing racism in fine dining while working the floor Follow Simon: @simonkimnyc Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  This week on The Chef's Cut is part three of our three-part series on hospitality. And this week, we have Simon Kim, who for the past 10 years has risen to the top with his iconic restaurant empire that includes Pope Korean Steakhouse and Kokoda. On this episode, we're asking Simon about reinventing the steakhouse.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Koreans always had Korean barbecue, but how about we actually created something that is a little more developed?

• 0:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  He's gonna come clean about going through tough times before reaching the top.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Everyone thought that I was rolling, you know, pretty nice, but little did they know, I genuinely had less than like a couple hundred dollars in my checking account.

• 0:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  And he tells us about his worst customer experience.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  They said, but can a white person open this bottle of wine? And I think that like hit me really hard.

• 0:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Don't forget to leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. Let's bring in Simon Kim.

• 1:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Simon, you definitely ushered in a new wave of steakhouse, modernizing that concept. But how did you know? It seems so obvious now that Korean barbecue, American steakhouse, that that would be a home run. But were you so sure when you started off that that was gonna resonate with guests?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  I mean, I wanted to do this regardless of what was happening on the, of the moment, right? I've been working on this concept for about nine years before launching. And I wanted to open this at least five years earlier than when I opened it, right? So while I really got lucky, right? I would have opened this no matter what or when the, when the time was. It didn't really matter to me because I had a conviction to open up a Korean barbecue restaurant. But we followed the footsteps of like European cuisines, you know, we, there has Italians had trattoria and osteria, and then they have developed version, which is the restaurante. Frenches have bistros and more developed brazieri.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Koreans always had Korean barbecue, but how about we actually create? It is something that is a little more developed. Still have the essence of like conviviality of a Korean barbecue. But like wine list, a proper cocktail, martinis and old fashioned and, you know, and ambiance. And, and I had a conviction that this would work. But when we opened, the headwind was extremely strong, right? Number one, Korean barbecue is where you go after your shift. Chef, you, you, you take your guys, you know, drink some beer and like throw it down, a K-town. That was the essence. That's why you go to Korean barbecue restaurant.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  So when I was pitching that I wanted to refine version of it, they're like, bro, like, that's almost saying like, uh, this casual thing, it's, it's oxymoron. So it was really difficult to fundraise. But there's another giant headwind, you know, like right now, the steakhouse genre blew up, right? Every single like hottest restaurant in the city is a steakhouse now. But back in two thousand seventeen, uh, all the old school sparks and like these old school steakhouse were struggling because the millennials were not eating red meat for environmental reasons, blah, blah, blah. So there was actual trend that, um, red meat consumption was going way down.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  A steak is of the past, not of the future. And Korean barbecue is of casual and refinement, whereas we did completely opposite of where the trend was. So it was a lot of, um, doubts and a lot of headwinds and, and questions. But I always had a conviction, you know, I thought this would work and I was obviously biased and, uh, but, but the conviction was real, so.

• 3:53Joe Flamm?

  It, yeah, I think it's one of those things, you know, I feel like in restaurants especially, you know, hindsight's always twenty twenty. Like, you know, when, you know, Coop burst out of the scene and, you know, I actually, I spent two years cooking Korean barbecue in Chicago.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  No way, I had no idea.

• 4:08Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I was a sous chef at, uh, for Bill Kim and, uh, his Korean barbecue restaurant. And I remember when Coop opened, I was like, oh, that's how we should have done it. Like this is brilliant. It's perfect. You know what I mean? It made so much sense, but it was like. You know, I think like that's the great restaurateurs. You're able to see, and I think it's like you know, the invisible, right? And I think coat is the invisible. You mean, it was the thing that was so obvious, but nobody could see it. Nobody could see like this has all the through lines. That it makes perfect sense that, you know, I mean, everybody would want this because people love Korean barbecue. People love steak houses. So if you gave them everything they loved about steakhouse and everything they loved about Korean barbecue, put it together. It's like, of course, that's a whole rod, but it's like, nobody could see it.

• 4:53Joe Flamm?

  So for you, it's like, you know, when you talk about, you know, coat, you're like, I knew it, right? And the clarity of vision and like, is that how, when you're looking at new projects? Like, that's the way you got to feel. Is it like very kind of like gut for you where you're like, if it's something I can't get out of my head? I need to keep walking down this road or is it more mathematical analytical than that?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Hmm, definitely the intuition, right? Definitely the intuition. But Joe, what you just said is so resonates so strongly with me. Uh, ambiguity is killer restaurants, right? And I think I know that firsthand. I had a first restaurant that I opened 2013. Peora. It was called Peora. Yes, it was an Italian restaurant. You know, every restaurateur's dream, like 32 seats, West Village, uber fine dining, synchronized drop. Michelin star? Michelin star, uh, but it was ambiguous, right? It was a small, refined, creative, uh, sophisticated, like passion driven restaurant in New York City.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  I've, I can actually name right now, like 50 of those restaurants. Like, there's no real reason why you go there as opposed to 50 other quaint, somewhat fine dining, creative places, right? It was ambiguous, right? And, and I was not Italian. So what I was doing was a little more of a fake it until you make it. And I think closing that restaurant and, and I had extreme financial struggle while having that restaurant. So imagine like, uh, I was, I always like tried to dress nicely. So I had a Michelin star restaurant in West Village and I dressed nice and I was fairly young guy. So everyone thought that I was rolling.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  You know, pretty nice, but little did they know, I genuinely had less than like a couple hundred dollars in my checking account. Almost to a point where I had to walk out of my friend's bar tabs because I just couldn't pay for it. So I became antisocial and I became this kind of like trapped in my own silo of, you know, seemingly successful, but factually broke, essentially broke. And I think that struggle a few years and fear and ultimately closing down the restaurant with a Michelin star and people loving this restaurant. And I felt this irresponsible and I felt like this kind of ginormous amount of guilt. And I think that's when it crystallized, you know, I'm gonna do something that's authentic to who I am, right?

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Like, and that's why I'm gonna do Korean barbecue mixed with American steakhouse. Because I try to, if I try to do replicate what exists in Korea in America, I probably wouldn't do a good job because I'm not authentically Korean. Yes, I'm from Korea, but I'm equally as American. So that's why I found that American steakhouse where I authentically resonated with. And then I put it together where my roots are and came to and put it together. So it was not an analysis, right? It was not like, oh, you know, people like this, people like this, how about we put it together? It was genuinely like, I failed and I had to be feel this irresponsibility and guilt and shame of closing a restaurant.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  And I set out, I'm gonna do something, you know, even if I'm gonna fail, I'm gonna do something that's authentic to who I am and have that purpose. And then I'll go down swinging, you know, and I think that was code. And that's why timing didn't matter, none of this thing really mattered. And like, it was intuitively, this is, this is the conviction. And I think that's how I was able to persevere despite the fact that like. You know, it was really difficult to fundraise. Uh, I raised like half the money. I started the construction. So I raised money like, like in tranches so that if one of those investments didn't come in by the weekend, I wouldn't be able to pay the contractors and it would go bust.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  And that week after week after week after week, like I was losing sleep, losing weight. I was just kind of dying, but I had that conviction that this needed to exist. And I think that's what gave me the uh, strength to carry on.

• 9:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that is so awesome because we talk about how much of our industry is grit. Can you get through it? Can you persevere? Can you keep going, keep your head up, keep fighting, especially when you believe in the concept like that? And then you found another concept that seems the same mix of your American and Korean identities with Coco Doc. So fried chicken, GIs brought it over to Asia and Korean fried chicken is delicious. I mean, you know, it's, that's a thing. And that's another part of K-Town that as a cook in New York, we would go out for Korean barbecue, Korean fried chicken, you know, 2am after a shift.

• 9:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you took the next concept of that, which is equally American and Korean and put it into Coco Doc.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  I mean, honestly, launching Coco Doc was very difficult because even my like closest business partners, I'm talking about like my director of operations, my uh, beverage directors, my partners, uh, who's, who's doing this. Um, I would ask them, I real tall, you know, what do you think about this, you know, idea of fancy fried chicken? Um, they're like, Simon, I'm gonna do whatever you ask me to do, you know, I'm here for the ride. Uh, but if you ask me, this is shit is not gonna work. Like people do not eat fried chicken before going out. Uh, fried chicken is not a fancy and uh, uh, pastime. So this is not going to work, but I'm gonna do whatever you ask me to do. Um, so even, and, and my investors were like, Simon, you can keep opening code and create a multi-unit brand,

• 10:39Speaker 01

  something similar to Nobu. Why are you deviating and creating this high risk of a new product? But I really saw the, once again, had the conviction, right? Because I love fried chicken and I love the story. As I was like searching, you know, what is my next item? I thought about three different items that could, that I could potentially scale. One was pizza, but I don't like pizza. I don't like carbs and so pizza is like, I actually don't like pizza, hot take.

• 11:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know, that's, damn Simon, I didn't see that coming.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, pizza doesn't make me excited. Anyways, uh, hamburger, but hamburger, I felt like other people really did it already, you know? And then fried chicken, I was like, I love fried chicken and, and everybody else loves fried chicken too. And when I looked at it and as a Korean Americans perspective, I was like, oh my God. It was the black American GIs that went to Korea like only 70 years ago. Until then Koreans didn't even eat fried chicken.

• 11:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Wow.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Like they, they boiled it, you know? And so it just made so much sense as a Korean American. I'm very fortunate that people appreciated me for being that kind of bridge, if you will. So I thought that I can now, you know, South Korea has the largest amount of fried chicken restaurant per capita in the world. And they developed this kind of culture. So it only made sense, I'm going to bring it back to America and pepper in Americana, like the coleslaw's and you know what? American nostalgia and put it together. And of course, um, you know, just with code, I work for chefs like Jean Georges and Thomas Keller, right? Like the, the, the French bougie-ness is something that I really appreciate as well, the haute cuisine element.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  So chicken nuggets with caviar, black truffle, uh, the largest champagne list in America. And created this really fun space and I think it's been a, a really amazing ride so far. And I think the conviction that I found was, uh, when I asked one of my mentors, like, how should I carry on? This is really, really tough. And I think he gave me really good insight. He was like, Simon, if you believe, now put yourself out of the picture, right? Forget about you, you know, forget about Simon Kim. Does this high-end Korean steakhouse need to exist without you? Take you out of this equation. If the answer is yes, just keep going. It's gonna be you that does it, right?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Because if this is bound to happen, why not it be you, right? So I think that really gave me the conviction. Because it's definitely going to be me, right? Like, um, and that perseverance, I agree, Adrian. Like, this business is, you know, nine o'clock, you come to our restaurants. It looks like the hottest place and most lucrative place on earth, you know? But, um, it's not, right? Uh, the amount of hard work and every single shit goes wrong every single day, right? And, uh, and being able to put it all together and last the slow summers and, you know, callouts and global pandemics and rising prices and, and, and shrinking labor forces.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  It's a real hard job. So I, like, one hot take for restaurateurs aspirationalists. Bro, like, get out or be ready to, like, go into this cold water every single day. You know, it's like Navy SEALs going to ice cold water. I bet they never get used to it. This work will not get easier. Though the sooner you get accustomed to consistent stress and disappointments and, and, but a lot of hope and collaborations, that's only when it's gonna become better for you. Because this job is not gonna get better.

• 14:30Joe Flamm?

  Right, it doesn't, it's, it's the old, it never gets easier, you just get better, right? You just get stronger.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  You've solved enough problems and when you see those come up, you know how to solve them a little faster the next time. Or you get a new set of problems that you can take lessons from before.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  But also, when you do it, do it long enough and, and, and do it with a good heart and intention, I feel like you attract fellow people. I think when it gets truly easier is when you have group of people who are like minded. When, when they see cold water, they don't like, oh, you're going first, you're going first. No, if you can get a group of people, I'm going in first, even though we all know, nobody wants to go in there. I think that is when you create that, um, you know what, I'll go in first, I'll go in first, you know? And, and now all of a sudden, we're all drinking the Kool-Aid. And of course, it kind of sucks to go into the cold water, but like, we created a culture, right? And I think, I think that's really exhilarating and I'm very fortunate to have amazing team like that.

• 15:27Joe Flamm?

  You gotta make it a footrace to the cold water. You know what I mean? You want to be surrounded by people who are fighting you to get in, where it's like, you all know it's gonna hurt. You all know it's gonna be brutal, but you need that right group of like absolute lunatics who's like, well, I'm gonna go deeper than you and I'm gonna go in before you. And you're just like, all right, we'll see. I'm gonna keep swimming out.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but at some point, we also need some, uh, like a CFOs who are like, Simon, that's probably not a good idea.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Like, uh, do I have an E N P ready, you know?

• 15:56Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, does somebody have some heating blankets when we get out?

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 16:01Joe Flamm?

  I, I, financial, you know, having something is a great account.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, is there, is there a bridge we can put over the cold water? Somebody have a rowboat?

• 16:10Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 16:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Simon's like, no, charge.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  But now the company's grown a little bit, right? So we, and we're, we're talking to more institutionalized kind of entities as well. So I think I'm finding myself as a restaurateur, really being able to have those engineer types, uh, in the company. So we can actually look at the, uh, kind of task a little more with, um, a bunch of lunatics, bunch of engineers that can really kind of, um, um, have those opinions. But I think that what I'm finding the most important at this phase of my career is. Analysis paralysis is a real thing, right? Whether you're a lunatic, whether you're an engineer, if you have one of a group of them,

• 16:55Speaker 01

  they'll lead a lot easier, but once you have a equally kind of a robust group, then then it's very difficult to come up, who who makes that call? And I think that's where restaurateurs really have to be. As a leader, as a person who's all there at the top, I think it's it's really difficult to make those decisions, which one to follow. And I think that's where intuition is really coming to play. At the end of the day, it's not the data. Data helps you, right? My intuition wouldn't follow such a strong data opposite direction, right? Because intuitions are a combination of data, a combination of gut feeling, a combination of bias. All of this like combined, probably the most sophisticated set of data,

• 17:39Speaker 01

  in my humble opinion, is human instincts.

• 17:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Simon, how do you define the role of a restaurateur? What is your role in your group?

• 17:53Speaker 01

  I think I'm more of a producer. If I was compared to like a movie industry and I each film, we have a director who is kind of like executive chef or CDC or general manager or director of operations, right? Where I feel like my role is to A, really have a good understanding of what's happening in the world and what kind of story we can put together that is authentic to us, but that's relevant to what the market is looking for. And then try to really find perfect people to do that with. And then gathering a bunch of money and being able to put it, put the band together and launching the show, if you will.

• 18:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Gathering the money is a big part of it.

• 18:35Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, the gathering money part, I think, is one that people glaze over a lot of times. So they're like, oh, yeah, like, you know, I'll just do my own thing. It's like, well, you're also going to need a tremendous amount of money to do this. And it's not the the easiest thing to be like, hey, does somebody want to give me a couple of million bucks to make the riskiest investment of their life?

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and a couple of million dollars no longer go that far, right? Two thousand twenty six, when we first started off in two thousand thirteen, things were a little different. But now, building anything and and and finding people is just getting harder and harder. So it's a interesting time.

• 19:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Now, Simon, I know a few restaurateurs and I find that everybody has, has their thing. Lighting, glass, where everybody has something that they obsess over. What is a detail that you obsess over that other people might not even notice?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  I think one of the most important thing that I try to communicate with my team is we as restaurateurs, we as restaurant operators have to see the invisible, right? And I think those are what we really focus on. Whether that is temperature, right? Whether that is volume of music.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Light you can see, but like being able to see the different varying things. How you feel, right? How you feel? And, and I don't mean that in just hospitality, like how, how did someone made you feel? Not like that. It's, it's more like physical, right? The temperature, is it warm? Is it hot? Is it cold? The music, the beats per minute, does it really get you flowing? Or is it too fast? I think that's what I really focus on. You know, how, how do I feel when I'm in this space? Eating this food made by the chef? How everything comes together is what I really focus on.

• 20:32Joe Flamm?

  You said one that I haven't heard anyone else bring up, but is a massive one. In temperature. It's like something that people don't think about, but like we all know. If the temperature of the room is not right, too hot, too cold, you will see that review the next day guaranteed. You know, we went in there, but it was too hot. We went in there and it was too cold. We went in there, you know what I mean? And my porridge was too whatever. But it's like if the temperature of the room, and it's hard to do because it's like you're cooking and like, you know, you're in New York, I'm in Chicago. It's like, sometimes it just gets super, super cold or super, super hot. And then you have still, you know, a couple hundred people opening and closing the door a thousand times.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:13Joe Flamm?

  You're trying to like maintain a space. So you're like, oh my God.

• 21:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  I remember reading years ago that like Grant Atkinson at Linea had set the temperature of the room and made sure the water was at a certain temperature. So the glasses never showed perspiration. I was like, that was when I started to say like, holy shit. Like restaurateurs, like people are noticing details like that because you don't want your glasses to sweat on the wooden table.

• 21:38Joe Flamm?

  Man, I'm just trying to make sure the hoods work.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  But see, but that's the interesting part, right? Like, a lot of chefs are hyper-focused on like condensation on the glass. Personally, I don't mind the condensation, right? Because as a customer, I don't really care about the condensation, right? It doesn't bother me. But what does bother me is like what I focus on is a little more customers as opposed to an object, right? You know, like when it's people are getting really, really drunk. I believe when temperature is hot, people, blood flows faster. You got the feeling of alcohol feels a little more, more accentuated. If in that case, I want to make sure the temperature is cooled down a little bit.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  If the room is getting a little too wild up, you want to cool it down a little bit. Physically cooling that room down, the temperature of the room actually slows down this animated movement of our customers, you know? Vice versa, when the room is too rigid, you want to increase the temperature of the room. Then they take off their outer layer, blood is flowing, drinks are feeling. So you get to really kind of like orchestrate the room. It's not so different than when DJs like pump it up, pump it up, pump it up. And then, and then they drop the thing, right? Like, it's not so different. You want to like, you want to build it up from 5pm, like build it up, build it up. And like, so that there's a real nice pop at like 7 o'clock. And then you build it up, build it up. And like 9 o'clock, 9:30, there's a real build up.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  And like some nights, you can carry it to like 11, right? Some nights dies down a little bit. You can't really force-feed it, but you can definitely like maestro a little bit, you know? And when it's really, really like slow and stoic, you know, that's when you, you send like a round of tequila shots to some table. That's going to really kind of bring out the fire. And like, I think curating that room to me as a restaurateur, you know, I'm very fortunate in that sense. I don't get to spend too much time in the kitchen, but I get to spend time in the hall. So while chefs are focused on, you know, how is my fish cooked or meat cooked? Or how the final presentation? I get to worry a lot about like, how are my customers like behaving?

• 23:55Speaker 01

  And how are these food impacting our customers, et cetera?

• 24:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Now, Simon, when you were opening, was the goal always to become a global brand? Did you always want Coat and Coco Doc to be a large global brand? Or did you just think that you would open a couple of places in New York?

• 24:20Speaker 01

  I think I always wanted a big brand. I look up to Chef Nobu a lot. You know, I think Chef Nobu did such an amazing job. And as an Asian restaurateur, how he expanded the brand and how global that is really resonates. I mean, personally, I think I would like to open slightly less amount of number of restaurant compared to, say, Nobu. But like, I'm always constantly drawn to different cultures and places and what have you. And being able to be a restaurateur that gets to travel around the world. And more and more, we want to adopt those cultures. Like, for example, Coat Miami have ceviche. We want to continuously develop

• 25:00Speaker 01

  the Latin flavors of Miami incorporated into Coat Miami. In Vegas, we have Vegas-specific dishes. We have Coat Singapore that also has a Coat Singapore-specific dishes. So the idea is we can like continuously move them up into HQ, recipe books and what have you. We can rotate them around, keep things fresh, right? I feel like the next generation, we are looking for something that's constantly evolving, constantly stimulating. We have a very short attention span now, right? Nobody can watch a full movie. They just watch shorts. So I feel like I really want to really kind of adopt this kind of evolution and have the feeling of something special,

• 25:44Speaker 01

  but have the feeling of something that's an international brand. So how do we actually capture the the brand's quality control and trust to the brand? Meanwhile, capturing the essence of a local restaurant that feels special to be there? How do I find the perfect balance? That's commercially successful, but ultimately gives you the the feeling of mom and pop restaurant that that's rich in soul. That is the biggest question that we always ask.

• 26:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, it's not just cookie cutter. It's not like you just took the concept and just cut and paste on another city. I love that it actually reflects the culture of where it is. And it's the same experience, you know what to expect, but it is tailored in a way that shows that you understand the market and you care about where you're opening these places. It's not just imposing the New York menu on Miami. It's taking into consideration what the food culture is there and in Singapore. And you talked about Vegas and you used to work there earlier in your career. Was that a goal like? Was that kind of like, I'm, I'm bringing it back to Vegas, back where I started as this big brand?

• 26:57Speaker 01

  100% I think Vegas has a, I still have a 702 number. I never changed it after I left Vegas. I wanted to kind of carry that piece of Las Vegas DNA. Cause ultimately we're all just accumulation of our past, right? And I think it's so important to embrace that. And but if you look at my, all of my restaurants, Las Vegas DNA has always been in it, right? It's dark, there's neon sign, the light, light, the music. There's this kind of sense of, uh, cause in Vegas, when you go out in Vegas, you're not coming from work, right? You actually flew to Vegas to go out, right? So there's this kind of like feeling of people from all over America and somewhat like all over the world coming out and getting ready to go out

• 27:42Speaker 01

  for the evening, you know, getting ready in their hotel rooms. That feeling is really, really fun and exhilarating. And I think that feeling, we want to capture that. Whether we're in New York, whether it is in Miami, whether it is in Las Vegas, that's been in there. So this kind of music, darkness, nightclub, life vibe. But you know, make no mistake, we procure the best ingredients, the most amazing wine list, um, and all those things, you know, it's not. Am I fine dining restaurant or fun dining restaurant? We're fine, fun dining restaurant. It's just that when we went to Vegas, we turned up the the volume of fun a lot bigger so that we can like throw it down.

• 28:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's true. There's this misconception that Coco Doc, that they're more about the fun and the show. But it's not style over substance. The substance is just as important. The integrity for the ingredients, the cooking, like every you all did not win a Michelin star for nothing at two of the locations. Like, the food is legit, the care that goes into stuff. And when you walk in, you're like, oh, my God, this is going to be so expensive. You look at the menu, there's great bottles of wine at all price points. Was that intentional?

• 28:54Speaker 01

  100% Adrian. I think that's one of our biggest mission. Don't get me wrong. If you want to take coat for a ride, you can like

• 29:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  You can ball out.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Break, break a bank. And I've seen some checks where I'm like, holy smokes.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  But we're very intentional about our pricing. So our butcher's feast that comes with four different types of banchan, four different types of meat, including USDA prime beef, American wagyu, USDA prime dry aged ribeye, kalbi that's marinated with a bunch of food juices and all these cool chefs touches, diamond cut, a lot of labor, comes with two different stews, kimchi stew that takes a lot of time and effort to make, tenjang stew, miso stew, bowl of rice and bunch of kimchi and scallion salad. Scallions are not cheap, you know chef, right? All of this, so four different types of meat as well as a dessert, a soft serve dessert.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  We, we want to make sure that our customer can get all of this for a puck, price of a puck of a filet mignon at a, a pretty decent steakhouse. I'm talking about a puck of filet mignon that does not come with anything.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  So, cause seventy eight dollars is a really nice Chateau Brion, like a one puck. So, so it's like my favorite thing, cause I'm a New Yorker. I came from Korea, but I'm American and I have a ginormous pride as I wanted to be American. It's not like I by default, I became an American, you know? This is a, I love America and I love New York. And I think what New York is, is when I go to a restaurant, there's a NYU students shooting giggles and having the best time, sitting next to a billionaire who's like popping whatever they're popping. But we're all different, but equal and everybody's having the best time. And I think we don't ever wanna lose that, no matter how busy we become and whatnot.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  And, and sometimes I've checked myself because I'm a capitalist as well, you know, so.

• 31:01Joe Flamm?

  I think one of the things you brought up that I think is really interesting to me is, you know, like Vegas, it's like, you know, when you talk about expanding the brand seems obvious, right? Because it's like you have roots there, you know, what you're doing, it seems to make sense. But like as a restaurateur, and I think this is more of a question for, for me and like where I'm at my career. It's like, how do you look at a city? Like, you know, cause it's like, we look at restaurant spaces, right? We've all, we've all walked restaurant spaces, we've all walked buildings and been like, okay, how does this feel? What do you look for in a city that says to you, like, this is, this is where coat needs to be? This is where coconut needs to be? This is the next city I need to go to? Like what's your, I would love to know like a little bit about like, what's your process like?

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Honestly, I think it's the biggest thing, once again, intuition, right? When you go spend about a week just going to different restaurants, go sightseeing. And if it vibes with you, you're like, I like it here, I love it here. I think that is the first sign, right? Because at the end of the day, these are, your, your work is fortunately, unfortunately, direct reflection of who you are, right? So if you drive and vibe well with the city and the people of the city and the restaurants and how this is happening, then it works. If you look at where. I'm at, you can clearly tell, I'm in New York, I'm in Miami, I'm in Las Vegas.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  What is the common denominator of all three cities? People love going out, right? It's a vibe of a city, right? Like Las Vegas, New York, Miami. There's common denominator, which is like people, there's a high energy, high intensity people. There's a certain level of a feeling of celebration. So those cities, when I went, I felt those vibes really vibing. So I think those are key things. I think honestly, data like median income, average like foot traffic or like these data, I think is such a blanket numbers because, you know, no matter how big your restaurant is, none of these metrics really matter, right? At the end of the day, all you need is 140 people.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  You know, there's no like million tourists, 200 million, you know? None of these things are as important as, you know, we're first of its kind, Korean steakhouse. We have this fun conviviality, but also kind of simplicity of item being a steak. So when I looked at Miami, even though there's no Asian culture reflection there whatsoever, and many people are like, Simon, do not go there because people do not appreciate Asian culture down there. But I, I went there, I realized like the bunch of Latin culture, they're always thirsty for something different. They love beef, they love going out. This would work.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  It's a, it, the fact that nothing else like this exists clearly paid ginormous of dividend. And now quote Miami actually a superseded New York's number for the first year this year, right? So, yeah, so I think when I go to a city, I think it's so important, you know? First, you know, why did you open a restaurant in the first place, Joe?

• 34:12Joe Flamm?

  Because it's, you know, what I love and where I wanted to be.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Exactly, right? Exactly. I think this is what you love. So I feel like when you fall in love with the city, I think that is genuinely so much more important than medium incomes and these metrics and, and because we try to put our businessman hat on, but it was always about the love. It was always about the connection with the people and the culture. And I think as long as we stick to that, because we are better at that than. Any other people like when we start analyzing data. Let's be real, Joe. You and I are not here on this podcast because we're a good data analyst or financial analyst or whatnot. But we we can spot where the love is, where, what do people, how do people eat? Where the rooms are, right?

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Like, I think celebrating, putting it all together and like through love, you know, like, when I feel that at a restaurant, I just go back to that restaurant because the percentage of restaurant that has the level of love and authenticity is, in my humble opinion, less than 10%.

• 35:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  We have a segment that we like to call Walk In Confessions. And this is where you get to tell us a funny story from early in your career. We know the Simon Kim now, who has built these global brands of coat and Coca Doc and Grace.

• 35:38Joe Flamm?

  Mr. Worldwide over here.

• 35:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right, like Pitbull.

• 35:41Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 35:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  But who was the Simon Kim? Like, what was a funny story from earlier in your career where you had to pull a rabbit out of a hat to make it happen? Or maybe it didn't work out, but here you are to tell the tale.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  I'll share one, actually, little heavy story. Yeah. I think I'll, so this was in Times Square. I was managing a restaurant and the sommelier was busy opening under the restaurant. I got called to one table and I went to the table and I wanted to be good at what I do. So I learned how to present the bottle of wine. So I had a little nice serviette behind the label, da, da, da, da, da. And then like presented the bottle and the host basically looked at me and said, without real of offensiveness, they said, but can a white person open this bottle of wine? And I think that like hit me really hard. And to date, I'm not really well versed in wine, right?

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Just because I think that really had a real like argumentation on kind of how my professional brain worked. But that being said, I think that those kind of like earthquake of moments really kind of challenges you whether do you belong in this industry or not? And then you find the conviction that nobody else will tell me whether I belong in this industry or not. And you kind of find these convictions and you start to appreciate what makes you unstoppable is moments of stops that makes you kind of question, should I stop or not? And then you reignite, you re-move forward and you tell yourself, nobody else will tell you when to stop or when to go, but you and your team and your partners and your coworkers.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  And I think that's Walkin's confession.

• 37:29Joe Flamm?

  Oh, yeah, dude. I have that shit where you're just like, I'll keep this chip on my shoulder. Like, yeah, you know what? When you want to say that shit to me, fuck you. Like, you know, I'll be at your table, I'm gonna start building my own. You know what I mean? And it's like, it's like, that's the stuff where it's like, yeah, that could have sent you, man. That could have been it.

• 37:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  I mean, to be fair, to be fair, that did send me, right? Like, I say it on a hindsight, as you mentioned, Joe, 2020 hindsight, I can say this back then, but I was just so embarrassed, I didn't know what to do. I think I was just, I was devastated. But ultimately, once again, you know, I want to just share with our industry people devastation, disappointment, all this hardship is what makes us who we are, right? Like, let's wear it on the sleeve and I just encourage everyone to find that strength and hope and perseverance, because that is what makes us stronger, not our brilliant ideas and how we can tap dance at a table making more sales. It is this kind of grit and perseverance.

• 38:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, yes, and you are embodying that, Simon. I, that, ooh, that would have sent me, but as a professional, you held it together and you are stronger and better because of that and probably even more empathetic with your teams and your guests and knowing how to help coach them through experiences like that so they don't get discouraged in their careers.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 38:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, thank you for sharing that, Simon.

• 38:56Joe Flamm?

  That's awesome. Simon, you've been incredible, man. Thank you very, very much. Me and Angel have to come see you next time I'm in New York and grill up some steak.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  And when I'm in Chicago, I want some carbonara and amatriciada.

• 39:10Joe Flamm?

  Hey, come on by. I'll see you. I'll see you, Jude. You know, I'll get you some pasta before you go out and get on the red carpet.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 39:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  That is it for this episode of The Chef's Cut. Be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening, especially if you're watching us on YouTube, where you can find full-length episodes of every show. And be sure to follow us at @chefscutpod on IG. For Joe Flamm, I'm Adrian Cheatham, and this has been The Chef's Cut: Life Beyond the Past.